Pints With Aquinas - Is "Therapy Culture" Toxic? (Dr. Gerry Crete) | Ep. 541

Episode Date: September 17, 2025

In this episode, Matt sits down with therapist Dr. Gerry Crete to unpack what therapy actually is, how it differs from spiritual direction, why so many people today are seeing therapists regularly, and if therapy is actually healthy or potentially toxic. 🍺 Want to Support Pints With Aquinas? 🍺 Get episodes a week early and join exclusive live streams with me! Become an annual supporter at 👉 https://mattfradd.locals.com/support 💵 Show Sponsors:  👉 Seven Weeks Coffee – Use promo code MATT for up to 25% of your first subscription order + claim your free gift: https://sevenweekscoffee.com/matt 👉  Truthly – The Catholic faith at your fingertips: https://www.truthly.ai/ 👉 Hallow – The #1 Catholic prayer app: https://hallow.com/mattfradd  💻 Follow Me on Social Media: 📌 Facebook: https://facebook.com/mattfradd 📸 Instagram: https://instagram.com/mattfradd 𝕏 Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/Pints_W_Aquinas 🎵 TikTok: https://tiktok.com/@pintswithaquinas 👕 PWA Merch – Wear the Faith! Grab your favorite PWA gear here: https://shop.pintswithaquinas.com

The person discovers that this part that they've been heaping shame on and exiling and rejecting and so on is actually not what they thought it was. You know, and they actually, I've seen it over, I can't tell you how many times, where all of a sudden they're like, I didn't know, I didn't know what really know this part. I couldn't love this part of me until now. Now I can see it and bring like the our innermost self when we connect with that and in order to connect with that you kind of have to like have every part no parts blended we kind of have to there's a process to like sift it away to get to that core and when that when our spiritual center when our inmost self is able to to engage with this shamed bad part there's so much compassion that comes and flows. So I was talking with a lady recently who had clearly listened to maybe every single kind of therapeutic podcast in the world or it so appeared to me as she was talking. Right. She was talking about inner child and parts and all this. And I'm sympathetic to all of it.

And I'm not meaning to sound critical. But as she was sitting there discussing all this and our blessed Lord didn't really come up, I began. to wonder if this therapeutic culture, what do I mean by that? I guess I mean a day in which there's no, it doesn't seem like there's much of a stigma around therapy as there perhaps used to be. But it made me a little worried because I thought, well, hang on, what she's saying doesn't really sound like the saints, doesn't really sound like the church fathers, it doesn't really sound like scripture. And you might say, well, that's okay because people come up with different ways to express what they're going through, what they experience. And they don't have to

feel tied down to a particular way of phrasing things. But it did make me worried. And I wanted to discuss that with you today. What are your thoughts on that? Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I think I know what you mean. And I understand this idea where people are almost having a narcissistic or self-focused, you know, almost might even seem like an obsession with, you know, therapy or therapeutizing their lives and analyzing their lives. And I'm a therapist. So I'm saying this. I do think there is a tendency possibly there in our culture. I feel like what it comes from, though, is a deep sense of loneliness in our culture. So even though, we are at more connected in some ways than ever before with information and with other people through you know

online means and everything we're actually lonelier than we were before and more isolated and i actually think that contributes to the rise and rates of depression and anxiety other mental health issues in our society so i and i would believe that therapy can help with that in general right but We might want to explore what is therapy, right, to define it a little bit because people just say therapy, but it's actually pretty complex and there are different kinds. And some are, you know, might be more effective than others. And there might be a problem in the way we're generally training people to be therapists also. So there are a lot of issues there. Yeah. So it sounds like you're saying that maybe the rise in popularity and acceptance of therapy is in response to the fragmentation of, of families and individuals. Yes, I believe that's true.

I think that in the past, if you go back in time, like the very first major modern therapy is right, psychodynamic, which is what people think of as. I love that you say, right, like I have any idea, but sure. So Freud, think Freud, think you're sitting on a couch, you're not even looking at the therapist, he's kind of standing behind you,

he's asking you questions to kind of probe into the unconscious mind, to kind of discover what are the, underlying drives that are, you know, moving you, that you're not even aware of, bringing those to awareness and through that process, there's healing. So that's the original kind of therapy, psychotherapy that a lot of people think of still, even though almost nobody does that anymore. And why did that come about when it did? Well, I think it responded primarily to severe mental illness. So there were, you know, cases that were much more severe. And in the past,

before the, whenever it was, late 1800s, people that were dubbed crazy, right, if they were having psychotic episodes or they were highly neurotic, would be possibly sent, right, to some kind of psych asylum type place, which is sometimes worse than a prison. And that, and, and the kind, or maybe they had some treatments that were barbaric. And so with Freud and the others and his followers, so you've got Adler and Carl Jung and Eric Erickson, all these different people that followed Freud, but also developed their own approaches.

I mean, they provided a humane way to treat severe, more severe mental illness. And that's partly too why there's still that stigma sometimes around therapy because there's an assumption that if you're seeing a therapist, it's because you have a severe mental illness, right? And yes, most therapists are trained to work with more serious mental illnesses, but there are a lot of illnesses that even if I get, I'm referring to someone who specializes in certain things. I can't do all of it. But nowadays, therapy isn't just about treating serious high levels of mental illness, you know, like schizophrenia or something that is perhaps could be seen as more organic, more like. you know, it's not just something they have to think their way out of easily. You know, so, but now a lot of people go see like a counselor, for example, to work through

marriage issues or to work through changes in their career or to work through family dynamic issues. Like, so there are a lot of reasons that aren't really necessarily mental illness. I mean, in some cases, yeah, there might be some depression or there might be some anxiety. so it could qualify as having, you know, a diagnostic code for insurance purposes. But it's not, we're not talking about something severe. And so people have been getting help in this way and are appreciating it and realize, wow, it is nice to go to see someone who's objective, who's trained in whatever area and can help and guide me to work through something, which is really different than what I was describing

earlier with Freud and all of them, you know, working on those. deeper issues. So do you think if we lived in a day and age where families were intact and supportive of each other, that therapy would be far less common because we would be able to process and work through and overcome issues that we're having in a loving familial relationship? Because it does seem kind of weird that instead of dealing with my issues, with my loved ones, I'm going to go pay somebody to listen to me. In other words, they wouldn't do this for free. Who wants to listen to me go on about my issues. I got to pay them. That seems it seems not natural. I don't know that it's as simple as that. I think that in the past people didn't have the resources, right, to go to

therapists. And maybe they would have more family members to support them. But there might have been more issues in the families that simply weren't treated. People just endured or people just, you know, they maybe had different attitudes about it. And even going to see their priests, I mean, some priests are amazing and super helpful and understand human nature in deep ways, but some are not, right? And so, I mean, they may be amazing spiritual men

and can guide a person spiritually, but are they actually helpful at times to work with, you know, what's going on in a family or whatnot? So I think people just did without, in the same way they did without a lot of medical care that might have made a big difference. in their lives. And so now people, I think, have been going to therapists for quite a while now. Like, I would say, like, since the, I don't know if it's the 1960s or 1970s, when therapy, you know, more

counseling kind of really became its own discipline within the field of psychology and marriage and family therapy as a discipline within that field kind of emerged on its own. And so people have started to rely on those trained experts who have, you know, studied the, say, let's say with the marriage and family therapist, like studied family dynamics and have studied different treatment approaches. So I would say if you go to a therapist and all you do is chat, you're really not doing anything terribly helpful that, yeah, you couldn't possibly do with your neighbor or a trusted family member. But if you're seeing a therapist,

it should be because they're trained as a specialist in some particular area. Like for me, it's trauma. Like, I do a lot of work with trauma and survivors. So if you're treating post-traumatic stress, like you can't just, it's not just chatting like you are with your friend. You really do have a lot of approaches to work on that issue. And if you don't get results, right,

after a period of time, either the therapist needs to change whatever they're doing or maybe you need a different therapist, but there should be results ultimately, right? Now, some people are going to a therapist because, yeah, they're experiencing high levels of anxiety or they have post-traumatic stress or possibly even disorder like PTSD or whatnot. And some people are doing that. Other people do like to go to a therapist because they kind of, want somebody who they can talk things through with who's objective, right, especially if they're in an environment that is difficult or stressful, you know, maybe even a family dynamic where

there's some, you know, negative family dynamics that can't get out of, same old patterns, or marriages, a marriage where there's the same pattern over and over again and the couple's on, you know, maybe even a brink of divorce or separation. And to see a therapist who is trained in how to work with couples and how to work through issues. I mean, it's amazing, especially with couples, because I do less of it now, but I used to do a lot of marriage counseling, a lot of family counseling, and you see the results.

As a therapist, you know it. Like when a couple comes in, and they won't even sit on the same sofa, and then six months later, they're snuggled up together on the sofa, like, you just see it. The proof's in the pudding, it reminds me of dieting. There's all these different types of diets out there. and everyone who's enthusiastic about their particular thing

talks about that particular thing as if you're not doing this, what are you doing? But we all know the experience maybe of trying a particular way of dieting and maybe it's like intermittent fasting or paleo or carnivore or what have you. But the proof's in the pudding. Like if you start eating in a particular way

and you just start flourishing, you're losing fat, you have more energy, you have less brain flog, you're sleeping better, you can go, all right, then this is working for me. And I think it sounds like you're saying something similar with therapy. If you go there and your life starts getting better, and I mean objectively better, you become a more virtuous person,

your marriage becomes more healthy and loving, then all right. It works. And there's research, right? So every type of therapy that comes out, if it's deemed an empirically validated type of therapy, which is what you'll see, it means it's gone through a pretty rigorous process of testing.

So, you know, for example, IFS, which is one type of therapy that I use, an EMDR, which is another that I use. Both really were developed in the 1980s. So historically, I mean, that is a long time ago, but it's not that long ago. And so what they do is they have major research is done on these theories. So the people come in, they test them, you know, for whatever their issue is like their depression scales or anxiety scales or whatnot. They do the therapy. Then they test them after to see if there's been improvement and then they test them in again and again later to see, you know, were those benefits, were there any benefits, first of all? And if there were, were they sustainable?

In other words, in six months and a year, are they still, have they still improved? Or was it just transiently? Did it just change? You mentioned earlier, you made an analogy to medical therapy, say. You said back in the day, people would have just had to live with some sort of health issue that maybe today they go to a doctor for. But 100, 200, 300, 500 years ago, people were still seeking out remedies that may not be as effective as they are today. So what were people doing 500 years ago in the early church? Because I want to get back to this point that it's still, it bothers me. I don't, I'm not saying I object to it, but it does bother me when I hear Christians and they sound more like the latest therapeutic book that they've read

and that author than the saints. And maybe that you'd think I'm wrong to have that sort of, hmm, that makes me feel uncomfortable. But so I suppose to get to that topic again, what were people doing 500 years ago or 1,000 years ago? Yeah, yeah, I'd love to get into that. Because I actually, I'm nerdy. And I love reading early church father writings

and saint stories and everything else. I think that a lot of people did have recourse, obviously to priests and so on. But I think even within that, in the very early church, you didn't always even have to be a priest to be considered a spiritual guide. Does it all this.

Yeah, yeah. And so people would sometimes seek those people out to talk things, talk through things with them. I mean, it tended to have a spiritual focus. Same with different writings, you know, the various writings of so many saints. I mean, I consider someone like St. John of the cross, a psychological, you know, a therapist of the soul, a psychological guru.

Yeah, I would add to that, Francis DeSales, you read some of his letters. Yes. They are. He's a doctor of the soul. Yeah. Yes. So I do think they, I mean, the way they went at it would not have been the way that modern psychology does necessarily is certainly not the same language.

But I do think people sought those things out. Yeah. All right. So then, because it feels like today there's this real awareness. that we are sort of floating through modernity, unrooted, ungrounded. And so as a reaction to that, it seems, a lot of people are like,

what were people doing 500 years ago? I want to do that thing. So maybe that means I buy some acreage and start a little farm. Or maybe it's I go back to the traditional Latin mass. Or maybe it's, whatever, start dressing the way people dress because they look like they respected themselves and people today dress in pajamas.

so are you seeing a sort of pushback against modern therapy as if to say okay we can't really trust this because this is relatively new and uh if you know you just mentioned john of the cross i mentioned francis says we should just be doing that these are spiritual issues and anything else has somehow been infected by modern secular or jewish wasn't freud a jew i don't know maybe it wasn't, but has been infected by that and therefore we can't trust it. And so we really should just be going back to the way people did things in the early church. Well, okay, I'm going to go a little bit philosophical, anthropological, what have you. So even if you just looked at the middle ages. So, but I think it would apply to the early church. It would apply basically until

about maybe 16th century that people had an understanding of their world. that was very defined and an understanding of their place in the world that was very defined. And their sense of identity and where they were in the world, in their family, in their society and culture, and in view of God was all known and defined. And there was a security in that. And since, especially in the 20th century,

you know, when you see, you know, the rise of like existentialism, the rise of sort of postmodern kind of philosophies, rise of obviously atheism, you have this sense in which in our modern world and postmodern world that we no longer know who we are. We no longer know where we fit in society, what we're meant to do and where we are in the universe in relation to God. We no longer know. That's no longer assumed. And so we are left having to figure that out. And when I say we, I don't mean me personally or you. I mean like

as a society in general. And so this is why you get books that came out in whenever Camus wrote The Stranger, I forget, in 1920s or something. And you get books like that, or the metamorphists, you might prefer a lot more Kafka, right? Like, where basically they don't even know why they're there anymore. They have this crisis of an existential crisis. Like, why do I exist? What's the point of anything?

And then you get in response to that existential therapies. Some of them are quite good. Like, I really like Victor Frankel, for example, who was a Jewish, a brilliant Jewish man and survivor of the Holocaust, lost his wife and his parents in the Holocaust, but really understood suffering, right, from his experience and found,

and noticed like in his book, Man Search for Meaning, which is a classic, right? He's seeing all the suffering in these concentration camps and some people are dying. And he's going, that person could technically have lived physically. And then other people, he's looking at going, I don't know how that guy's alive because he should be dead physically, but he is still alive. And so he was discovering

something deep within the soul that gave it meaning. But when we accessed it, when we could still find meaning in the very worst of places, like a Nazi concentration camp, we could still find our identity in that, who we are in relation to God, and even in the worst sufferings, we can get through anything. And I think so some of this, we would get to get at, you know, this whole therapy question is, we don't know who we are anymore.

And in some ways, not that most therapists aren't going to answer that for you, but they will at least walk you through, if they're good at all, at making sense of and finding meaning in your life. Yeah, I forget who it was who said, this is the horror of modern man, because he ends in nothing and comes from nothing.

He is nothing. Yeah. And so you insert. that individual into this time where, yeah, with all the anxieties and stresses and 24-hour news cycles and social media and we're all overwhelmed with messages like information and what's going on in the world right now, which is kind of overwhelmingly stressful. And how do you understand the world when you don't understand who you are? Exactly. So it's so in multiple levels and multiple ways, we are experiencing anxiety. Yeah,

we're destabilized. We don't have a sense of security in the world. We're constantly, every day there's another crisis going on in the world. Yes. Yes. And we wouldn't, and it's not being filtered in any way. And so we're somehow making sense of it. And I think people don't know. And so when they, if they have a therapist, and sometimes people are seeing a therapist for quite a long time, sometimes. And that is a stable point in their lives, even if their marriage is falling apart, even if they lose their job, even if their world is going crazy. My therapist is a secure place for me.

For good or bad, I don't know. I mean, in some cases, it may be very important. In some cases, it could be a problem. But I think that's what's happening. I'm going to keep circling back to this until I feel satisfied. It might be my fault that I'm not. So do you think then that the early church would have benefited from a slew of Catholic therapists?

In other words, like, are we really adding anything? or is it, are you saying basically that not necessarily because people were stable and knew their identity, lived in close-knit communities, had spiritual guides at the ready? Right. And if, yeah. Well, it's hard to know because we really don't have a lot of documentation of what the average person was feeling and thinking back in the year 200 or the year 600 or 1300.

We get, we hear more about what the wealthy aristocrats were up to. Once in a while we get something brilliant like St. Augustine's Confessions where he literally is letting you know, letting you into his very soul. This is a guy who maybe could have used a good Catholic therapist earlier on, but he got there, he did get there. Of course he did. And so you see in chapter seven of the confessions, for example, you see him like wrestling with, I want to be a Christian. I want to accept all this, but I don't want to leave all this other stuff behind. And, you know, the life of going to the theater and having sex and having, you know, pleasures all the time. And yet I see the truth in the faith.

So if I was, I feel like I'm being really presumptuous here. I don't know if I could have helped St. Augusta. But, I mean, he could have used some support. He went through kind of his own turmoil for a really long time. And then he has that experience in chapter 8 where he's under the fig tree and he's just, he just surrenders it all. He weeps, right? he just weeps and he had his friend was nearby and he goes to see him afterward but he kind of did that on his own um but it might have been nice for him to have had some guidance and support

i don't it's been a long time since i read the confessions but i mean he may have ambrose being one of them and others yeah it would see exactly like i would love to know what those conversations would have been like we only know ambrose right was such an amazing creature so he was very convincing, so he's a very good apologist kind of thing, but what were the heart-to-heart conversations like? That would be fascinating. Maybe this is the concern that we get the sense that maybe modern therapy, and I understand it's a big umbrella term, and I'm not lumping you in on that, but maybe the fear is, yeah, well, you know what? Like, sin is the cause of all unhappiness and when people go to a therapist they may end up referring to their sin let's say

as a disease or worse still the therapist may just sort of justify them in their sin and say well yeah you do deserve more like you should go find happiness you should abandon your spouse or something like that right well yeah that happens all the time in secular therapy all the time so you're you're spot on. And at least that's a concern that I would have with a lot of secular approaches, right, is that it is so subjective that there is, you're, you're, so a lot of therapists are trained in a Rogarian style. So Carl Rogers was a, was one of the major influencers. He developed his own type of therapy that gets called humanistic or person-centered or Rogerian after his name. And his whole approach was, was about unconditional positive

regard so you're always just positively loving which which sounds good and in some ways is very appropriate but but it's it's just a very subjective humanistic approach and it has its important some of those skills are actually really good but it is a highly subjective thing and if your whole point is to be completely non-judgmental as a therapist so completely and we're we're expected to be professionally, right, not judgmental, of course, but it kind of can tie your hands a little bit. So if a client comes in and they're doing something that you consider to be morally wrong, and they're not seeing you for spiritual or moral guidance, right? It puts you in a bind, like, how do you say to them, no, don't do that, right? Like, just on a basic level.

Now, I will in some cases. So if a guy comes in, it's a married, married couple, and he's like having an affair. and they're coming and do marriage counseling. And he tells me that privately. I'm like, well, I can't do marriage counseling. You have to stop the affair. Oh, I see. I will do that. I don't know if all that,

I don't know if secular therapists will or not, but I'm like, I can't, but I think many would at least do something with that. Yeah. But it must be tough, right? I wouldn't go, hey, maybe you need a divorce. Yeah. I wouldn't start there for sure.

Yeah, it must be tough because you need people to open up and to trust you. And if the first thing you do is wag your finger at them, well, fine, I just won't trust you. Right. So there's got to be a sense in which you hear them out in a sort of non-judgmental way but then as you say having to say this is unacceptable and unfortunately i can't do at times yeah so again it's very delicate and and you have to

it's you have to be careful and decide when's the right time to challenge a client because there is a space and therapy for confrontation but see most modern therapists if you were just go across the board say in the united states and i haven't done this research but i would put money on it, that they're trained in a Rogarian style and they're using CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy. Pretty much everybody is doing that. I would say it's well over 50%, maybe 80, 90, I don't know. But it's the common approach. And it's not all bad, but I find it limiting. And I really feel that the experiential approaches, you know, like EMDR, IFS,

Ecosate Therapy, the things that I do, are way more effective. And I actually think they are more in line with what the saints and Catholic, mystical, and monastic traditions have to say. I'm happy to elaborate on that. Yeah, we can do that. What about the disease idea?

Do you get the sense that there's this proliferation of language, like emotional illness, and anxiety and, I mean, can't it just be more simple? Can't we just go back to what Aquinas had? I mean, Aquinas talked about anxiety, right? Aquinas talked about these things. Why can't these just be spiritual ailments that people can get solved

either through reading the advice of the saints or going to confession? Right. Or spiritual direction. Like what is it that a Catholic therapist is bringing that a priest couldn't or isn't? Right. Well, let me just backtrack just a little,

St. John Paul II, in his apostolic exhortation. I'm gonna try to say the Latin. I always have trouble with this. Pastoris debo-vobobis. Okay. Yeah, they're about shepherds. And he's writing about the formation of priests.

And he says that the human, he introduces human formation into the equation. Prior to that, it was in seminaries, it was spiritual formation, intellectual formation, pastoral formation. and our pope and saint was wise enough to say human formation has to be the foundation of all of the other kinds of formation and so then there was a kind of a scramble to some extent like among seminars to incorporate that and okay what is human formation and who can talk about it

and who can get into it and i do think that proper psychological approach can be very helpful in informing what human formation is because it's a lot about being a healthy person, right? So I think counseling has a lot to say about that. Psychotherapy may be needed at times, but it's about having character, you know, to some extent having character. I mean, you get priests sometimes, I mean, they're coming out of seminaries, young guys. They're coming out of the culture, right? They don't, they don't, you know, they play video games a lot and they don't show up on time

and they don't, you know, make their bad kind of things. like there's some human elements of development that just, you know, aren't there. Yeah, just as theology is based upon good philosophy, spiritual formation has to be based upon a proper human formation. Like if you've never had a conflict resolution that went well in your life, if you've never learned how to do that or, you know, dress appropriately or brush your bloody teeth or something. I mean, right?

And yeah, the fear is that maybe that's getting worse, right, as people are spending most of their lives online, let's face it. And the fragmentation of the family. like you said. Yeah, yeah. So we're not, as we may not be, you know, teaching our children that there may be a sense in which, and maybe in families, you know, we are overdoing, you know, in doing everything for our kids and we're not maybe teaching them character in some ways. And so I think that, you know, where do we go for that? Yeah, we want to strengthen families, right, to do that work. But in the meantime, like, how do we help, let's say, seminarians, how do we help priests have,

just be decent people, right? First and foremost. And I think that there's a risk and what has happened in the past of just spiritualizing everything. And so if everything is just given a spiritual answer, you know, just stop sinning or just like go pray. I don't think we're equipping people.

I want to say a big thanks to the College of St. Joseph, the worker based in Steubenville, Ohio. You'll recognize many of their faculty and fellows from the show, people like Dr. Andrew Jones, Dr. Jacob Imam, Dr. Mark Barnes, Dr. Alex Plato. Listen to this. Their program combines the rigor of an elite bachelor's degree with the practicality of training in the skilled trades. And their tuition model is structured so that students graduate without crippling debt. If you're a bright young man thinking about what college to go to, apply to a place where you not only learn the good, but gain the power to do it.

Apply to the college of St. Joseph the Worker. If you're a parent, look into this college for your teacher. children. And if you're not in either category, just consider supporting the mission. Go to college of st.joseph.com slash Matt Frad to learn more. That's College of STJoseph.com slash Matt Frad to learn more. There will be a link below. Thanks. Yeah. I wonder if there's an analogy to be made between a therapist and say a fitness coach because you could say, well, where were the fitness coaches in the year 300 or 400? And you might say, well, there were certain activities that people just had to engage in on a daily basis that kept them healthier than we are today. Like we live a much more sedentary lifestyle. And so yeah, you're right. A CrossFit gym

would probably look really weird 900 years ago. I don't know. But today, as a result of the kind of place we've created, these things have emerged and people are finding them helpful. Is it something like that? Yeah. I actually think that that's a good analogy. And there's a rise in coaching. And there is more and more Catholic coaching. Like my buddy Matt Ingalls, who does Metanoia Catholic is a whole program to train people to be Catholic coaches. And so there is a difference, like there's differences between coaching,

counseling, and spiritual direction. There's some overlap, of course, but they're almost like evolving as distinct elements. And those coaches are actually, I would think, might be better equipped at some of the human formation tasks than your typical counselor is. Often a counselor is looking more to the past

to understand the where did things start and how do we heal the past wounds in order to improve the present. Coaches don't really do that. Coaches spend most of their time looking forward, you know, setting goals and kind of helping guide somebody toward reaching their present goals. So I do think, you know, you might, it might be good for a person who's trying to get their life in order to have a great support system, like an ecosystem that maybe includes a counselor, includes a coach, spiritual director, good friends, you know.

if they have a healthy family to connect with as well. But you're creating this, I like the word ecosystem, like around yourself as a support. Yeah. Yeah, it is bizarre going to the gym. Jerry Seinfeld has a joke about this where he says, we go to the gym to get stronger, not so that we can do anything helpful,

but just so that we can go back to the gym and lift more weight next time, which I know is a joke. We're actually strength training is actually really important for our overall health. Yeah, but if you worked on the farm, you would laugh at, these people going to a gym for no reason at all other than...

No, like running. Running's a rather modern phenomena. Not running from something, but just running. That's weird. Yeah, yeah. Gali, it's an interesting time. How, how, what have you noticed in your clients today versus when you began therapy? That is to say, like, I know I go on about this a lot, but the rise of, you know, unending news that gets shoveled into a,

us in which we willingly just receive being contacted through a million different apps, always having this bloody device on you that you keep turning to. It's almost like keeps you in this continual state of anticipation. Yeah. Have you, I think it's getting better or worse, if you could judge the kind of people who are coming today versus the people that were coming when you began. So it's, yeah, it's hard to answer for sure. I find that working with younger guys, in their like, say, 20s and 30s, which I do a fair bit of, they're just so much easier to work with. Yeah, like, they're so much more open and positive

about, you know, doing therapy and getting into it. They tend to be, like, more open emotionally and, you know, and this kind of thing. So I enjoy that population when I work with guys my age or older or a bit younger. there's a lot you have to do to get to a place where they will become more vulnerable and where they will talk about their own emotions and where they will trust you. So I actually find it's easier in some ways. Thread this needle for me, okay, because we've all heard the stereotype of the old

fella who refuses to share his emotions. Right. But on the other hand, you've got these wispy men who cry over everything and don't seem like they could support any. anything, much less a family. I don't know how many women are looking for a man who's overly emotional and always sharing his feelings. So where's the balance here? Yeah. And I think, I know what you mean.

I don't know that the guys coming in or overall in their lives, just these sort of wimpy, emotional, like bags of tears kind of thing all the time. I don't know that that's it. I just think that when they're in certain contexts, like coming into therapy, And in relationships, they're capable of actually connecting in a deeper way with somebody. Let me just insert this. It is quite ironic too, hey, how like some man out there, it's like, I'm not, I'm just imagining, like, imagine someone's criticism of therapy is this like, effeminate, you know,

you're going, you're crying, you're sharing your emotions. I could see a nice rejoinder to that to be like, yeah, okay, well, why don't you just keep masturbating and screaming at your children and, like, punching the wall? Do that. That's way manlier. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think we need to, in some ways, redefine or at least clarify what we mean by, you know, healthy masculinity, right? I don't think it's being more feminine per se, but I also think, yeah, it's not this rigid,

unemotional block brick that, you know, you can't even relate to. And this is why we have like generations, right, of guys who don't know who they are because their father's never connected to them, right? they never affirmed them, never taught them what a masculine way of relating emotionally even looks like, right? So they don't even have an idea. Like we have the, of course we have the greatest example is Christ himself, right? And but how many people are emulating him? I think more people are emulating a John Wayne maybe, and not that he's toxic particularly, but he. Andrew Tate would be yeah, okay, we could go with them more, yeah. And, you know, and that's not what we're aspiring to.

Yeah, I just thought of another analogy. It's sort of like when you go to a medical doctor, you sort of expose yourself, you become vulnerable before them. Why? So that you can remain exposed and vulnerable? No, so that you can be healthy and strong. And so presumably with therapy, hopefully, ideally something similar.

If someone comes to you in therapy, they're kind of bearing part of their heart that they don't know how to deal with, not so that they can then remain vulnerable and inappropriately vulnerable to people outside, but so that they can actually be more. Yeah, yeah. Because I would say if I'm thinking about in general,

I'm not trying to zoom in on one client or two, but like, you know, a swath of clients, I think that the guys are still guys. Like they have this thing within them and they want to be the hero of their own story. You know, they just don't, there are some social economic issues in our society now that are different than a guy 40 years ago

or 60 years ago, I mean, you can't just get a job, you know, at the plant and or wherever and expect that you're going to work for a company for, you know, 50 some years, get a nice watch and a nice pension and it's done. Like, that's just not the reality. And so again, there's this fragmentation of like, who am I? And now you've got, you know, we have fewer guys going to college than we have before. More women are graduating from a college with college degrees in men for the first time in history. So men are disillusioned with that process and they're disillusioned with the idea

that they can find a job that will, you know, be sustainable, right, where they could actually provide for a family. We have people graduating with master's degrees and PhDs and professionals and they can't afford a house, right? That's not how it used to be. I mean, you always, you know, back in the day, you didn't even need necessarily a college education. You could have a high school education

and get a job somewhere and have enough money, at least get a starter house going, right, and build a family. And so there's this profound disillusionment among young men. And they're searching, and they don't know who they are, and they don't know what they can't even be, and they don't feel like they have the same kind of opportunities.

And so there is, I think, that's a mental health issue right there, among other things. And the interesting thing, the recent statistics that have come out are showing a rise in Catholic conversions. and it's mostly young men. So I'm curious about that. I don't know, you know,

call them whatever Theo Bros or whatever, but there's these guys that are probably listening to your show and others, like, you know, because there's so much available now, they're not necessarily going to church and being inspired and converted there. I think they're online. Oh, yeah.

And it's a fascinating thing. It is. But are they, I haven't done the study. I would love to. I'd love to explore it. But are these guys, you know, is it all intellectual for them? Is there, are they connecting with God at this deeper personal heart level?

I mean, I don't know. I hope so. Yeah. All right. Good. Therapy. So then what would be some red flags someone should look out for if they went to a therapist? Be they Catholic or otherwise, you know, like suppose, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, a lot depends on why. You know, why am I suddenly feel like, oh, I need to see a therapist, right? That's a good question. So starting. That might be a good question to it. explore. Yeah. I think that a lot of people start to feel like their life is completely unmanageable in some way. They're overwhelmed. You know, so addiction might be one, where they get to a point

where they realize whatever they're doing, whatever, you know, maybe it's porn and masturbation, maybe it's alcohol, maybe it's, I don't know what, and it's ruining their lives and they can't stop. Yeah, they want to. Yeah, they can't. Exactly. And so that, we get a lot of people calling with that kind of thing or just severe depression right where they no longer motivated and they don't enjoy doing the things they used to enjoy they have trouble getting out of bed they don't have any you know motivation they you know and maybe you know they their jobs or feel very stalled and purposeless so so that that could be a reason as well I mean they're also people of crisis right like their marriage is falling apart and they don't know what else to do

and maybe their spouse tells them, hey, you need to get help or I'm not going to, or you're out of here kind of thing, or something along those lines. So people are often, or their child, right? They don't know what to do. Their child is behavior issues that are extreme, and they've tried everything.

They don't know how to fix it, and so they turn to a counselor. So usually people are coming because there's something is hurting big time. It's always nice when somebody comes because it's like, our marriage is good. We just want to make it extra good, right? like I welcome those those are great or but but it's a rare right people usually come because

there's a great need they hit a wool yeah yeah yeah and so uh the why is important and then choosing a therapist that has experience and uh is and and has a particular type of therapy that they're doing to treat the thing that you you're worried about right so it's important to find a therapist who specializes in whatever it is because if you just have have a therapist who knows that Rogeria and stuff and has some basic CBT skills, you're not gonna go too far, right? So if your issue is, say, I was abused as a child

and it's affecting my life now in ways that feel out of control, you need to see somebody who has an expertise in child or trauma. And then you wanna know like, okay, well, what kind of therapy are you asking the therapist, like what type of therapy do you do to treat that? And if they just say Roger and run away, right, because that's not going to do it.

If they have some brain spotting or EMDR or some kind of particular approach, and then they can articulate it and explain it to you and tell you what the process will look like, that's a good sign. There was a movie that came out on Apple, not a movie, a show a while ago about a therapist, and I forget what it was called,

was Will Ferrell in it? No, maybe it was one with Harrison Ford and, no. It was like that. The point is that the therapist destroyed his life. Oh, okay. And he meant to and profited off him. And it was awful.

Oh, okay. And I know this can happen in any field, right? Doctors can mess up patients and whatever. But have you encountered that? Have you encountered people in your practice who've been really hurt by other therapists? Oh, yes. Fortunately, I wouldn't say a whole lot.

But I've encountered sometimes some really, you know, people that report things. Now, of course, I don't know. Sure. The other side of the story. But, yeah, report really unethical behavior. So in those instances, let's say they're objectively factual and what they share with you, what is it, what is the red flag they should have seen? What was going on that? Well, yeah, there could be a lot of things.

Again, your therapist really isn't usually your best friend, right? So having some boundaries with that is a good sign. You know, some people ask their therapist this and I wouldn't have a problem with it if they say, do you see a therapist? Like asking your therapist, do you see somebody? Or what do they think? And it's a good thing if the therapist says they do because it means they're taking care of themselves. Like they're, you know, they believe in it enough that they're doing it themselves. and because of the type of job it is,

you're listening to people's issues and struggles all day long, you might need as a therapist somewhere to go to kind of unpack that myself. Yeah, do you find that you have something in common with priests when you speak to them about just hearing people's garbage?

What's difference with a priest, though, is you know, you're usually confessing number and kind. You're not kind of getting into the reasons as to why and where it came from. Some priests do. Yeah, sure, some priests do, especially in more of a spiritual direction. setting, but I've heard more than a handful of priests say, listen, when you come for confession,

it's a line, number and kind, please, you know. Right. Which, fair enough. But yeah, that must be an interesting experience to all day long hear about, like, sometimes you walk out of the office and go, my life is awesome. Yeah. Were you thinking of the show in treatment before with Gabriel Byrne? I'm not sure. Let me look it up. Okay, okay. Because that was actually did see that one. It was a while ago, though. Yeah. I'm going to look it up while you. respond to my question about priests and whether you feel like you can relate to them. Totally can relate to them. I have a lot of clients who are priests. So I do a lot of work nowadays with clergy. And so I, when I hear their issues, they're very, so anybody in the

helping profession, any situation, whether you're a coach or a counselor or spiritual director, even priest, where you're helping people through difficult emotional things and you're doing it all the time. Like priests, like, and I would say with priests, Like they are sometimes at the bedside with a dying child, right? They're more living it with families sometimes in a way that, than I wouldn't be. It was Will Ferrell. Will Ferrell, okay. Yeah, not shrinking.

It's this one, the shrink next door. Okay. I have not seen that. Do I need to see it? Oh, my goodness. it was, it made me want to, like, to really hurt the therapist. He was so evil. Oh, okay.

It was excellent. It was an excellent show. Well, there was a show, it was a TV show called In Treatment that was actually really interesting, right? Where he did, he had five different, or four clients. So every day of the week, it was like your Monday client, one episode was the Monday client, then the Tuesday. And then on the Friday, on the fifth day, he saw his friend who was a therapist.

to consult with. And that guy broke every ethical rule there was for a therapist. So what was that like for you as a therapist to watch it? Well, it was my wife who told me about the show at the time she was like traveling and watching it on airplanes. And she said, oh, Jerry, you have to see this show. So I watched it. I watched it fair bit.

And I just said, I can't handle this show. It's too stressful for me. It's like because it was very real. Like it's in a therapy session. So it felt like I was just having more time at work watching this show. And watching this guy make these horrible mistakes all the time or get caught in these little conundrum. But did you finish it?

It was stressful. No. So you can't even say whether it was worth it. It had several seasons. I think I watched just the first season. Now, you wrote a book recently called Litany's of the Heart? Correct. Everyone I speak to who's read this book has said it's life changing.

And I always feel honored because I'm like, I know that guy. We were in a D&D group together. I don't tell him that. But everyone knows now. But yeah, like it's neat because a lot of fellas or people write their books kind of young, you know. And you've been in this profession for a while. And so it's almost like you took a lot of this wisdom and knowledge

and put it into this gorgeous book, by the way. Thank you. Who was it? Sophia Institute Press. They did an excellent job. They always do. Their books are always so readable and nice to pick up. Yeah, yeah. Like really a lot of what I know or learn from parts work like IFS,

Egosate Therapy, EMDR is all in there. give us i got a question about parts work but i want you to tell people what it is briefly what is part's work so it's this type of therapy where you look inside so you go inward and you identify that within your personality you have multiple parts and so in other words so if you think about it like an inner child it's kind of that idea you might have any more than one possibly inner child within or you have a part of you that kind of shows up when you're at work or another part of you that shows up, you know, as a dad or whatnot. And so we have this inner multiplicity. But we also have within us and the saints and mystics for other church will all bear this out, an inmost self.

Okay. This is this is what I wanted to get to. Yeah. Because you had said earlier that a lot of this is in the saints. Yes. Because just, you know, Phenomenologically, I agree with it, because how many times have we said, well, part of me wants to, part of me doesn't. There's a part of me that's a rat bag and it's just doing this for the wrong reason. There's another part of me,

and I think it's a deeper part of me that wants this for the right reasons. It reminds me of St. Paul who says, some people preach Christ for gain, you know, and selfishness, and some people preach him for the right reasons, and he says, what do I care? So long as Christ is being preached, you know what I'm referring to?

I do. I mean, that's a paraphrase. Yeah, yeah. Here's the point. I think that about myself. you know like here I am with this podcast yeah part of me absolutely is doing this for wrong reasons you know but a deeper part of me and I think this is true of everyone I'm not just singling me out I think a lot of us have different reasons for why we do the things that we do but it doesn't mean

we're wrong to do them right but you can counsel on that if I would actually because I would and I don't know we don't have to do a session right now yeah but I would I would certainly be happy to notice right for you to notice the part of you that is doing this for good reasons that has that sort of noble purpose and all that. But I would actually want to bring in and understand better the part of you that is doing it for you're saying the wrong reasons, right? So I would want to understand that. So part of like an IFS kind of approach would be like, yeah, like can we get connected to that part

of you and hear it and understand better why, what its motivation is, right? Because do you think there's, and we don't have to talk about you specifically, but do you think isn't true of everyone who does anything, right? The part of you does this because you want to be the hero. You want people to say, look how wise Jerry is. He wrote a book. How brilliant is Jerry? And we all have, I do this.

Everyone does this, right? I think I tend to be more skeptical about myself than a lot of people. I kind of begin with what's the worst case scenario, and that's probably what it is. But what do you do with that? Yeah. How do you live with yourself when you realize, no, part of me is definitely doing this for immature reasons. Right.

But then to be okay with that. But by okay, I don't mean leave it where it is. Right. I just mean, don't be afraid. Don't be afraid of the fact that, yeah, you're doing this because you'd like, not you. I mean, sorry. Let's say me. You're a podcast.

A lot of people watch your show. You get recognized now when you go to an airport. Like, you like that. You like when people come up and say that their lives have been helped. And you probably like that for a reason that doesn't even have to do with Christ. Right. And. Right.

Don't be afraid. Don't be afraid of that, though. Just, well, here's the one way to look at it is when you have a part like that, which we all do, right, who want that recognition and who want, you know, to be noticed and affirmed and everything else, it would be good to figure out the story of that part of you and to explore it. And when you can connect in with that part of you and the therapy does that, you might start to realize or learn, oh, this is a part of me that goes back really,

like when I'll make this up right like when you're you were you know 10 and you showed your dad you know how you were riding on you could ride your bicycle and your dad looked at you and said yeah you're doing you'd ride like a girl or something right or some horrible thing and that sticks with you and so there's this part of you that carries this burden of I'm not good enough nothing I do is good enough nothing I do will ever please my dad or anybody right and so this this becomes a burden maybe that you get in childhood. And then as an adult, that part of you stays with you, still at that eight year old or whatever level of maturity.

And it's in with, it's within you. And now when we understand our parts, we talk about them as sometimes they blend. In other words, think of it like your beautiful inmost self is this beautiful sun, right? And shines God's love and light. But this part is a planet and it just shows up and eclipses the sun.

and takes over. So if this eight-year-old part that was never affirmed and is in desperate need for affirmation and tension is in charge of your system, if that, if it gets to a point where that's happening,

then you're dangerous, right? Because you're, you know, mean to be. It's not like there's a moral thing exactly that you're trying, you know, you're intending it. It's just that all of a sudden then you will just,

there'll be a never-ending need for affirmation and everybody to love me and want me. And I'll keep doing things in order to get more and more praise and more and more. And so that could become dangerous, right, if that's your life. So instead, it's like, well, can we, this type of therapy is about, like, can we approach that part of you? Can we give him now? We can't change dad and what dad said back then. even if dad's alive now and nicer we can't it's too late but we can approach that part in the here and now and give it what it always needed and we do that by connecting it with our inmost self

which itself is connected with christ and we can bring it the love and whatever it needs and learn this was just a kid who just wanted to be like affirmed that's it yeah and and that now your system plus other parts of you they're doing it right for the good reason and you're care about your mission and you care about, you know, bringing something to people. And you've got this other part that now is becoming more mature, right? The previously needed endless affirmation maybe doesn't. You discover, oh, well, what was that part meant to be? Maybe that part is more genuinely playful. Maybe that part of you is meant to be more a part of you that's just sort of joyful. Well, we bringing that in and your system's just richer for it, right? And so this is a power

powerful can be a powerful transformation of the whole person. I think what I'm saying, and if you still tell me why you think the correction was necessary, what I'm saying is I think a lot of us don't acknowledge the less than virtuous reasons we do things. Right. Because we're afraid that they exist. And so we tell ourselves a story about why, no, I'm only about the truth. I'm, oh, I want to, you know, as opposed to going, well, yeah, I am. but then there's also this motivation and this motivation.

So that's probably the first step, isn't it? Like, and to not be totally thrown off if you begin to realize that within you are multiple motivations for getting married or having children. But then it's, and then you tell me if I'm interpreting you correctly, it sounds like what you're saying is, sure, first step, but then there's going to be a way to sort of reconnect that or integrate that with the true self.

So if you have, like, I was describing like that part with that wound, and then now the way it's coping is to just endlessly need attention and praise. Well, that part might sort of be there but kind of existing a little under the surface so you're not aware of it. So I think what you're talking about is like other parts of your system

are going, well, that's bad. That part of me, we don't want to admit is there. So we're just going to shove it away. And so it's there, but we're not acknowledging it. And we're not acknowledging it because we're deeply ashamed that we might have bad motivations for something. Exactly.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. And so even the, like, talk about the addiction, like the guy who's struggling with porn and masturbation, right? Well, we see that in IFS terms, like we call that a firefighter part usually. It wouldn't typically be. And so it's a part of the system that jumps in whenever we can't handle something emotionally maybe

or we can't, like, or we're stressed or whatever. It's a part that has, learned, if I do this behavior, I will feel better, at least temporarily. And so it kind of, it then does that eclipse thing, right? And maybe it's doing it all the time, right? It's in and out, in and out constantly. But meanwhile, another part of your system is hating it. So it's like, so that within you might be this part that is, you know, automatically, you know, just jumping in and doing this unhealthy behavior. And another part of you is like mad as heck that that you're doing that at all and heaping shame on it, right? And so within you is this like, you know,

war, like St. James talks about a war of my members. Like there's, there's this war within, right? And so that creates tons of anxiety for that person, right? And there's no peace. There's no harmony there. It's this constant battle. And at some point or another person gives up in a sense. And that's where they might head into a depression or they might allow the, you know, like let's say maybe it's porn and masturbation. It might be tied with drinking or something. too and that's where they just they get to a point where all they're doing is drinking all they're doing is like they don't care anymore because they're tired of that inner battle going on over and over every day right so this approach really helps instead of like shaming this part right and this is what

surprises people all the time is you connect with this part of you and say okay when did this start for you or you learn to cope in this way we're not judging it we're just we want to understand it. And so there's part of you that learned to cope through whatever, whatever the addiction. Oh, okay, you did this. This was a way for you to survive. And then, okay, this is the shocking one that will sometimes, I will sometimes use and mean, is to say, would it, could you imagine thanking that part? Because for the last 30 years, this part of you has been trying to survive. You may not like the way it has chosen to or felt it had to. But man, oh man there's a part of you that's been in misery for a long time but because it thinks it's saving you

can we at least acknowledge how rough that is instead of like shaming it like oh my gosh this part of you is incredible imagine what this part would be like if we could get his needs met properly if you are a catholic and tired of dating apps that feel well not very catholic there is a better way it's called catholic chemistry it's a dating site and app for intentional catholic dating made for catholics by catholics designed for real intentional catholic dating go to catholic chemistry dot com slash matt and if you love it use the promo code matt for 20% off optional upgrades could you give us a real life example obviously i'm not asking you to speak of anyone specifically but you've done this for a long time can you give us a real life example of when you've seen this

work in therapy yeah yeah oh and I in the chapter 10 of the book litanys of the heart I kind of do one that's a little similar to that kind of case and I actually walk it through in a longer vignette than the other vignette so chapter 10 would be one to check out but in general I see it all the time and it's experiential so for it's not just talking about it and explaining to the person this process and then going okay you go home and try to figure that out or do that no we do it in session so in session we would connect with that that part and the person discovers that this part that they've been heaping shame on and exiling and rejecting and so on is actually not what they thought it was you know and they actually it's it's I've seen it over I can't tell you how many times where all of a sudden they're like I didn't know I didn't know what really know this part I couldn't love this part of me until now. Now I can see it and bring, like our inner most self when we connect with that, and in order to connect with that, you kind of have to like have every part, no parts blended.

We kind of have to, there's a process to like sift it away to get to that core. And when that, when our spiritual center, when our inner most self is able to engage with this shamed bad part, there's so much compassion that comes and flows. It's beautiful. I love it because I'm not doing, I'm not forcing it.

I just set the conditions for it. Yeah. And then you see this thing and they cry. It's like they didn't realize how much pain there was there and how tired these parts are and worn out they are. And then we bring compassion to those parts to start off with. And so that, so you start with a relationship. And then it's like, if we could find a better way,

because this firefighter part, right, this addicted part is usually what we discover is that it's protecting the system usually from what's called an exile part, maybe an inner child kind of thing, maybe that little kid that was told he rides his bike like a girl kind of thing. And they're protecting that. And they think the only way to protect that, protect the whole system from being overwhelmed by his pain, is to numb. And if we say, if there was another way to do it, it, would you be willing? Would you be willing to try something new if it worked? And you didn't have to do this anymore. And the part almost universally says, yes, but I don't believe it. And I'm like, of course, but the yes is good enough for me. Let's try it. And then there's a process to be able to like try it. And actually that part will let you in a little bit. You can connect with this exiled part. You do the healing work with that. And then you check back in with this formerly addicted part, and it's blown away.

It didn't know that could happen. And then the whole system is starting to change it within. And these parts are gonna start to adopt new roles. In other words, that exiled child part, after you've done some work with it, stops being in exile and stops being just simply a wounded, you know, a hurt child. No, it becomes more what it was meant to be, right?

It was meant to be a part of the system that was, I usually find these child parts are always joyful and playful once you release them of their burdens. And then this formally addicted part gets to take on a new role of protecting the child in a whole new way. And the way that that child needed protection back then didn't get when they were actually a kid, now that part can actually do healthy protection. So the whole system changes from within. And the whole person feels different. And I'm not saying, a one and done because people will fall back into old patterns still at times. But usually there's this like radical difference at least and how often that happens. And then if they do

slip up again, they have the tools to look inside and, okay, why did this happen again? And we can bring these parts back into where they need to be. Now, I know you've, you speak about this, you've written about this. So it's become secondhand to you. But for a lot of people who are watching, they might think, this sounds crazy. You're saying there are different parts of me and they're all speaking to each other. This sounds more like that cartoon with the different managers and things in the brain

than reality. So the reason I even brought up this idea was to ask you, where do you find this in scripture? Because you just said earlier, you'd love to talk about that, the saints and things like this. And then why is this not just a new fad, a new therapy fad that's going to be overturned

in the next hundred years? Yeah, yeah. of course I don't know what will happen in the next hundred years but I I do in my book Lit News of the Heart that's kind of my project so in part like every chapter has a psychological angle and a little story but then a psychological angle and then a biblical part so every chapter I explore the biblical basis for parts so I you know there's a lot that I could say there's a few major things certainly when St. Paul talks about I do a what I do not want to do.

Oh, right? He's really engaged with a part of himself. That's, wow, that's great. Yeah, and St. James says there's a war within my members. So that's another, I think, key passage. I think when you look at the body of Christ as described, right, by St. Paul, you know, there's a toe and there's a head and there's a, you know, there's a sense in which

our church at multiple levels from the Trinity on, have a dimension of multiplicity and unity. And so like, you know, even the Trinity is three and one and there's this multiplicity of, you know, of the different roles, right, of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And yet they are one, right? Essentially one and all.

And I think that's true in nature in so many ways, right? We are only one soul. We are only one person. So that, but we do have many parts, right? In a sense, like at a minimum where Thomas Aquinas, you know, you would have the different faculties, you would have the different, you know, you might talk about a rational and a, you know, sensitive appetite. Yes, those different sort of parts kind of. Yeah.

This is a little different than just those faculties. It's more than a faculty because these parts, when you encounter them, have sort of thoughts and memories and feelings that are different from each other within. And I know that can sound crazy. it's really not, it's not like they have their own separate existence. They're not like separate people or anything, but it may feel a bit like they are. Like phenomenologically, you might have the sense almost like you're dealing with, like it's a really different people within me, but they're not, right?

But they're just the way our brain is wired in order. I think the human brain, I don't think animals have this, right? I think they're relying purely on instinct and everything. whereas but humans have this complexity. No, that's really helpful because I can't think of how to interpret Paul's words, what I want to do, I don't do, what I don't want to do, I keep doing. I don't know how to interpret that. Like, if you don't like this idea of parts work, let's say, you know, you're like,

this is rubbish, this is, okay, then explain what Paul meant. And then how would you do it? You go, well, what he meant was part of him, oh. That's the simplest way to describe. We all know that experience. I want to be this kind of person, but I kind of don't want to do what it takes to be this kind of person. And I'm not sure I've got these competing desires.

Yeah. And it's... Yeah, and over and over in the Saints, you see this too, and it's so fascinating to me. And that's been my big exploration over the last, especially the last few years, is just getting into the more mystical writings of the saints, you know. So where does this sort of stuff show up in that?

Yeah, like, well, one, in an easy one, we were talking about St. Augustine in, you know, in chapter eight of the confessions. I mean, he describes, like, he literally enters into, like, an inner world. So it feels like a vision scape kind of a scenario where he's encounter, and he encounters, like, this figure called chastity within him. And he, you know, he encounters, he basically describes parts. I wrote about it in my kingdom within blog. And, you know, he describes these different characters kind of within his soul.

And he has this engagement with Chacity. And I was like, as I'm reading this, right, because of course he's not, he's using his own language. But I'm going, okay, now is Chastity showing up? Is that like his innermost self? You know, because it seems so like perfect? Or is it just a part, right? Is it a part of himself or something? And then he has that little boy shows up in it and tells him to go read.

And then he goes and he opens the Bible and he gets that passage from the Bible. So it's like he has this whole little inner world where different figures are talking within him. So I'm thinking of that part where he talks about tearing himself away from the pleasures of the flesh. And they say to him, you'll be without us forever. Yes. Yes. That's exactly it. Yeah. There's these voices. And he's arguing with those voices. Right. That are telling him, oh, no, you can't live without us. Okay. So here's a question. That's a Gullum from Lord of the Rings. It is very much like that. I was thinking of that earlier.

but okay so how come these aren't just demons why do you have to create this in a world of multiplicity of selves not that's what you're doing but yeah yeah well you know i struggle with that a little bit when i looked at saint anthony right and he's out in the desert and then there's these things show up yeah like the beautiful woman and everything else and he characterizes them as vices i think generally speaking but he sees them as demons right and and i i don't know like is that i would have to look at that a little closer myself and spend some time with it because I kind of wonder, like, was he just working through and processing different parts of his system that were show, you know, that were, where they, I don't think, I don't think of parts as being demons for sure.

But do you believe demons exist. I do believe demons exist. I don't think they, in normal for normal people, I mean, unless you're fully possessed. I don't think they're in our heads. Like a demon can't read our mind. I don't think. That's right. So a demon, isn't in our mind. Yeah, Aquinas makes that clear in his work day, Marlow. He says they can't know our thoughts. Yeah, but they influence us. So I think when we're a child, like, and that little kid example of being told, you ride your bike like a girl. Yeah. I think the demon is right handy going, yeah, see, you are not good enough. So he throws fuel on the fire sometimes. Exactly. And so those parts are, the demon loves that. They want us to think the worst of

ourselves. And so our parts start believing the lives of the demons, but they themselves are not demons and we have to free them from those burdens. Yeah. Yeah. No, it is, it is interesting how we go, go around just naturally interpreting the way things are without realizing that that's what we're doing. I mean, we do that as grown-ups with all of our defense mechanisms. This is what I always find, when I read a story about a child who's being abused in some way,

it, it's so bad, I hate it. I can't read it. I don't enjoy it. even if it's for a point, for example, in the brothers Karamazov, I think it was. Dostoevsky has this illustration a couple of times where somebody's whipping the horse and the horse won't move

because it's so exhausted and hungry. And it uses this language of whipping it in the eyes, you know, and there's this young boy trying to pull the man away from doing that. And whenever I read about the abuse of children in some way like that, I just, it unsettles something in me as it ought to, right? But in some kind of like, really, oh, I can't even

face it, why am I saying this? Because children don't have defenses. Right, exactly. You know, like when a child asks you, like, can you play with me or can you do something with me? Like, they don't even, if you're rude to them or hurt them, they don't know how to deal with that. My point is, we're kind of thrust into this world and we go about interpreting the world

and what that says about me and God and others, and we're not even intellectual enough to be able to sift through it. So it is interesting to me how, I mean, thinking about a lot about this lately, you know, in modern Christian prayer, we hear a lot about like announcing what is true and renouncing what is false, eh? And so there's part of me that thinks, okay, well, is this just some kind of modern Protestant take that's found its way into Christian language? And then I remember, actually, the Easter vigil, every Easter vigil, we do this.

We are called, do you believe in God, the Father Almighty? And we announce that we do. And then we're asked to renounce things. Do you renounce Satan? All of his pomp and empty promises? I do. We're aligning our wills with what's true. And I, in my own spiritual life, I found that really helpful to go,

okay, what have I aligned myself with about myself or about God or others? This is getting into the influence of the demonic. It's just not even true. And I've, well, that I need to, and then I need the truths of Christianity to sort of unbend me. Right. This is a journey of the mind to God by Bonaventure, this idea that sin bends man over on himself, such that he is no longer in a place to interpret himself or God or others, and he needs the word of God to untwist him. Right.

Well, I would be curious, so looking at this part's perspective, when I've, you know, for example, been in a baptism or I was recently a godfather, so I was then, you know, and you have to repeat, do you renounce Satan and blah, blah, blah, and all these things. And you go through the creed, right? And I know that I love that. And I'm excited and I want to do that.

And I'm going to say, I don't have a part that doesn't like that. But maybe I do. I don't know. I'd have to look inward and explore that. But I think a lot of people might. And so if I have a part of me that is not sure God exists or is not sure God is good, or is not sure, you know, that God cares, right?

Then what do I do with that? I think I exiled that. That's right. And so it goes under ground for those at home. What does it mean to exile that part of you? You push it out of your conscious mind and it moves into your mind. It's in your mind. It can't go away.

It go anywhere other than in your mind. But it goes so far away that you don't notice it. Maybe in other word is compartmentalize it. You put it on some inner shelf. and close the door and lock the door and probably lock the next door, right? I don't want to face that. And I think that's a huge mistake. Because if we have all these different parts that don't believe in God or don't trust God or don't whatever,

then what we want instead is we want to bring them closer and not push them away. We want to understand where do this come from? So like really it's you're evangelizing your parts. Like if I have a part that doesn't trust God, well, maybe it's because, you know, when I was saying, and Grandpa died and I thought God doesn't care about me. We all pray for him to recover and then he died. So a seven-year-old maturity of the universe and God is going to be a seven-year-old maturity.

And if I have a part of me that's stuck there and I just exile it, well, it's still there and it's going to be operating behind the scenes. And I'm not really always going to be aware of why I'm feeling such and such a way, this or that time or what triggers me. So when I hear about a grandfather dying or somebody, then that part starts feeling something.

And my system doesn't know why. Well, we can get to know those parts, bring them in. Did seven-year-old me need something it didn't get to know that God is good and that God will ultimately take care of us? Like, let's provide that. So instead of pushing those away, we bring so that all of our parts in our system can wholeheartedly proclaim the creed, can wholeheartedly proclaim the love of God, right?

And we're not leaving parts of us behind even, and maybe we need time, some of our parts may need time. And we have a way of like, it's kind of like a spiritual bypass, like of instead of feeling our bad feelings or raising our fears or concerns or doubts, we just say, those are bad. And I think that, harms us psychologically and spiritually.

Yeah, I suppose the reason I, when you brought up St. Anthony of Egypt and I asked you if you believe in demons and you said you do, the reason I did that is I thought, well, I don't want to fall into the trap of thinking we're much smarter now than the early church. And so we're going to read, just like people would do that in the scriptures, you know, when Christ multiplied the loaves. No, that was just a parable on sharing or when he walked on the water. He was actually walking on a bank by the coast or something. And I'm sick to death. of that. I think a lot of people are. And so I also don't want to fall into a new trap of reading the lives of the early church and saying, ah, these weren't demons. These were just parts of himself

that he's grappling with. Yeah. I'm with you on that. Okay. And what's funny, here's a little geeky side. I've been watching, there's a Star Trek newer show called Strange New Worlds and it's about the enterprise before Captain Kirk. So it's Captain Pike. I don't need to get into too many details. The first two seasons I really enjoy, the current season I'm not enjoying as much. But there was a recent episode where they go down on this planet and they meet these aliens that can travel in time and space or whatever. And they're very bad. And anyway, but they managed to contain it. And at the end, there's this scene where the whole crew, the main crew is sitting around a table and they're debriefing. And the captain goes,

says something like, well, we know that evil is subjective. And, you know, there really isn't good or evil. He says basically that. And there's a brilliant character named Pellia. She's an older actress. She was on taxi years ago, anybody. She's great actress. And she's the chief engineer. And she gets up and she goes, nonsense. There is evil and I have seen it. And there is evil in this universe. And I was cheering. I was like, wow. And this is because Star Trek has gotten kind of woke, if you will, like some of the, it's just heavy handed ideologically. And And I was so happy to see something nuanced. And but even to say that, you know, and, and so I think we, we are in danger if we don't recognize that there is evil in this world.

And so by denying demons or denying the presence of evil, I think it places us a great risk. And we certainly don't want psychology to just ignore that. So where does repentance come into all this then? If I can just point to my parts, quote, unquote, to justify or to, not to justify or excuse, but to sort of understand why it is I committed some kind of evil act. Right. Aren't we kind of running the risk of saying, well, what I, I don't need to repent. I just need to sort of understand myself or the two not mutually exclusive.

Well, I mean, I would still say, like, I would avoid ever saying my part made me do it. You know, like, oh, people do that? Well, I have heard people get close to that in a sense. Like in other words, yeah, like the human person has no real culpability anymore if it's just a maladaptive part. Well, yes, there's maladaptive parts, but I do think the human person is the one ultimately that makes the choice, right, to align your will with a maladapted part or to listen to the conscience, right? Which I think is coming from the inmost self. So we have to take responsibility for our mistakes. One thing I think that is fascinating is, you know, the example I was giving before of the inmost self.

usually expresses compassion and calm and all this, and encounters this part that is really broken, like maybe addicted, or at least as the part that is manifesting that. And when the inmost self realizes the burden that's been on this part for so long and how much shame has been heaped on it, they're often the person breaks down crying

and says, I'm so sorry to the part. And ultimately to God, but I mean they recognize how in their own system they've been cruel to themselves. Yeah. And now they're loving themselves properly. And Thomas Aquinas says, he talks about loving oneself as being better than a friend to oneself.

I can find the quote somewhere, but it's really cool. Yeah, what does that mean better than a friend? I know, what does it mean? How can you be a friend to yourself if there isn't some multiplicity within, right? So what was the, I know you're saying, you don't know the exact quote, but better than a friend?

a friend to myself? Yeah, I hope I'm saying it right. Essentially to love yourself is to befriend you. Yeah, and he's referencing when Christ says love your neighbor as yourself. Love your God with all your heart's whole mind and love your neighbor as yourself. And he's saying we have to love ourselves almost like better than a friend in order to love others properly. I see. So when I don't love myself and I have parts of myself that are

in unhealthy ways, right? Maybe they're avoiding or maybe they're reacting or they're, you know, doing things others. Like, I'm not capable of truly loving somebody in a holy way. Yeah. It would be like if my need with my kids, if my love for my children is all about me

meeting my own unmet childhood needs, I'm not loving my kid. Yeah. I'm distortedly loving myself. I'm not really loving myself, right? If I can heal that and bring order and harmony within my own system, I can love others better. How does this not just lead to what we mentioned

at the top of the interview, a sort of solopsistic inward naval gazing narcissism? I mean, for goodness sake, we're never going to be fully healed in this life and presumably unless some sort of miracle occurs. And so how do you go about life not fully introspective in a way that's actually harming your relationship

and impeding your ability to be charitable to those around you? Well, I think doing this work is an investment in yourself that then must result in having a greater sense of purpose and meaning in your life so that you are better equipped

to love others and build the kingdom of God, basically. Like you are, it would be like basic training you know, before going off to war. Like you're equipping yourself by knowing yourself well, by bringing harmony to your inner system, it's like basic hygiene. Right. So it might be like what I said earlier about, you go and be vulnerable and expose yourself as a word before the medical doctor, not so that you can live in that state. And if you did that

and ended up living in that state, well, you might need therapy. But you do it so that you can then go out and be strong or something like that. Yeah, well, I think... By strong, I mean... We are, I believe this connects with what all the saints and mystics talk about, which is ultimately theosis, right? Which is ultimately becoming Christ-like, which is ultimately participating in the divine nature. And so when our parts are in harmony with God, harmony with our own most helping God,

and there's this inner unity and there's this integration that our human formation is solid, then we're able to reflect God's love in a way that we are actually being transformed into, his likeness more and more. I think in this process, and this is where I see the intersection of faith and these methods. So we can take the good methods out of these therapeutic approaches. And when we look at it from a faith perspective, we're like, whoa, so if in IFS with Dick Schwartz is able to identify us, he calls it a self, and he starts talking about it like

it's divine, which it's not divine in that sense, but nevertheless, he on a secular level is finding this amazing thing that helps people be kinder and healthier. And I'm like, yeah, but we have so much more. If the in most self, when sanctified, when baptized, when, you know, in the state of grace, we should have access to all sorts of faith, hope and love, those theological virtues. We should have access to the fruits of the Holy Spirit. And it should be like flowing within our system. And so this is a way to help access that in my view. This is to me, could be transformative to help modern people, modern Catholics, actually grow in their faith

in a way that they would never do otherwise. So I get passionate about this intersection because I think we can, our faith has something to offer when married properly with the system has something to offer way better than even mindfulness, which is so popular, right, these days,

but that's basically secularized Buddhism. Like we have a Christian tradition of understanding our interior life, you know, and in love and responsibility, St. John Paul II opens with talking about interiority. We are not in touch with our interior life. But these therapeutic approaches are all about, it's not just about thinking,

it's about going inward. And the saints constantly talk about going inward to go upward. In other words, the kingdom of God is within. And when we go inward and find God within, we are then teleported or transported or lifted in a way where we can connect God and this contemplative prayer, right?

So those deeper levels of contemplative prayer. Well, there's an alignment here. Now, you have to be careful because the secular approaches can have problems. But my whole purpose of one thing I've been passionate about lately is, yeah, let's take from that what is good and natural and show how it can actually help us grow in our interior life.

to this point there was a verse from some paul that i love because i think we can apply it to ourselves or parts of ourselves it's from galatians chapter six verse one brothers and sisters if someone is caught in a sin you who live by the spirit should restore that person gently and then he says but watch yourselves or you also may be tempted but i just thought that was really interesting okay because in other words are like overcome by sin caught in trespasses yeah um um and And you think, well, why? Why would I do that if I'm with a brother and he's like overcome by sin?

Why gentleness? Why is that something? He's saying correct. So there's no ambiguity on what the person is doing and whether or not it's right or wrong. But he's saying to be gentle with that person. I think you could probably say there's a multitude of reasons you should be gentle

with people who are caught in sin. Number one, you know, you're full of faults yourself. So go easy. As you're correcting someone else, don't be so judgmental. Don't make fun of your brother's sin when your own faults are countless to quote Ephraim the Syrian.

But then also because people are in a much better place to hear what you have to say when they know they're loved. That's just, come on. That's as true as anything's ever been. This is why even when you listen to like someone who you might consider a self-help guru, not that he would put himself in that description

like Jordan Peterson or someone, the only reason men are willing to listen to say someone like him, it doesn't have to be him, it can be anyone. When they talk hard to you, like, you know, get your shit, together and make your bed and is because you actually trust that they see something good in you that can come about. If they were just berating you, you really wouldn't be open to hearing them. Point is this. How does that apply to ourselves? I think it does. So if we're supposed to be,

if I'm supposed to be gentle with you when you're overcoming sin and there's a reason for that, then I think there's a sense in which we have to be gentle with ourselves. And that could be because you use the illustration of pornography and masturbation. You know, someone might say to themselves. You know, I've been, I've been engaged in this since I was eight because someone exposed porn to me. That wasn't my fault or something like that. And this has been an ongoing habit. So, yeah, I understand this is going to get corrected in me. But if I just hate that part of me or shame that part of me, I don't know if that part of me will listen. Right. So I love that. That's a really great passage. I need to use that. I like that gentleness.

I think that most people I encounter are horrific to themselves interially. They might intellectually be able to explain themselves in a way that isn't horrible, maybe, but deep down, we are harsh to ourselves in ways we would never be to another person. So I think you're right. And when we do receive gentleness, often people melt because they've not ever brought

compassion to those wounds. Right. And so it can lead to all sorts of like power. Like I don't know if somebody just obviously berating, I'm not going to like, but even if somebody is just like telling me what to do or why I should do it, like obviously then I immediately think, okay, there's a part of you trying to control me. There's a part of you that needs to be able to control me for some reason. I don't trust that. But if you approached me with gentleness and I could tell like you're really just trying to touch my heart like how often does that ever happen to somebody you feel that somebody's gently but lovingly wants to touch my heart that's rare and people will be that's powerful right because deep down most people believe if you really knew me you would hate

me you would reject me if you really knew me and a lot of people take that further if god really knew me he would reject me. Of course, God does really know you, right? But still, it's this idea that, like, I have, I'm just so essentially bad. And no matter what they intellectually might believe, like they're not Calvinist with total depravity or anything, they might intellectually know that can't be right.

They believe down here they do. They believe. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, again, where I love that verse, because you might be tempted to think that if you were gentler with yourself, that that would somehow mean you're less serious about overcoming the particular.

fault that God has commanded you not to engage in or something like that. Right. But I think what we would say is, no, no, even pragmatically, even if the only goal is to cease engaging in a particular sin, well, hating yourself actually doesn't work. If it did, sure, maybe give it a shot, I'm joking. But since it doesn't, maybe you should take Paul's advice. So if I'm supposed to be gentle with a brother,

presumably that's going to be more helpful because correcting somebody else's sin's actually a really important thing to do, then how do we apply that to ourselves? Yeah. No, I love that. Exactly. And I think that it is about accessing, like I said, before, that innermost self, which is simply naturally compassionate and naturally calm and creative and patient. And it doesn't matter how messed up you are as a person or what kind of horrible trauma you've had or whatever to a person when you access that, it just shows up. And it's wild. I'm just telling you you, that's what happens. And it's beautiful. I just know that most people are raised where setting boundaries is associated with being harsh. And it don't, as a parent, like, so our parenting is not weak

and pointless if we are gentle, but firm in the boundaries. And that's not what most kids experience, maybe more and more these days, I don't know. But sometimes some children are raised with almost no boundaries, right? Parents just are trying to be nice and they're not having boundaries. But most of the time, if a boundary is associated with do this or this. And or like, you know, there's no gentleness to it at all. That's what people have internalized. And that's why later in life, they think that's how God sees them. And so anybody that tells them what to do, that's what's going to come up for them. And it doesn't work.

This is why I love. Maybe I've, maybe I just haven't read enough to know, but it seems to me that in, you know, Eastern Catholicism, which you and I engage in, the language of the healing of the passions and the idea of theosis as a sort of healing of the soul. Right. And the idea of confession being the medicine.

And I know this language exists in the West. Aquinas uses this with confession and things like this. But that seems to be more sort of in line with what you're talking about, I think, with the parts and confession, right? Because if I asked you earlier, well, how does kind of repentance play into this? If you're just saying, well, there's part of me that needs to be understood and therefore healed, it's like, well, no, that is it. That's right?

Right. Well, no. No, I agree. And I'd like to look at that more. There's one line for whatever reason as you're saying that just comes up for me and when I read, I read out of a prayer or a Melkite morning prayer

and they're always saying lover of mankind. Yeah. I'm just like, love that. Lover of mankind. Like, do we see God as a lover? As a lover, he loves humans. Well, the idea that the sinners flocked to him. Yeah.

That's bananas, hey? Yeah. He was so good that while he was being crucified by our sin. right his soul thought was forgiving his executioners who the goodness is this man yeah his kindness the way he says give them something to eat i don't want them to faint along the way right so not just concerned about our spiritual good but doesn't want us fainting is so gentle with sinners he's our he should be our model of masculinity yes you know and yet we have these other models yeah they get in the

and he's not a wimpy over-emotional sop, right? Right. He's strong. Yeah. But it's a different kind of strength. And it's a strength that has conviction that changes hearts. His presence changes hearts. And I think that a lot of men don't recognize their superpower

and a lot of their superpower is in their masculine presence more than it's in my need to control everybody. everybody. I want to tell you about Hello, which is the number one downloaded prayer app in the world. It's outstanding. Hello.com slash Matt Frad. Sign up over there right now and you will get the first three months for free. That's like a lot of time. You can decide whether it's useful to you or not, whether it's helpful. If you don't like it, you can always quit. Hello.com slash Matt Frad. I use it. My family uses it. It's fantastic. There are over 10,000 audio guided prayers, meditations and music, including my lofi. Hello has been downloaded over 15 million times in 150 different countries. It helps you pray, helps you meditate, helps you sleep better. It helps you build a daily routine and a habit of prayer. There's honestly so much excellent stuff on this app that it's difficult to get through it all. Just go check it out. hallo.com slash Matt Fred. The link is in the description below. It even has an entire section for kids. So if you're a parent, you could play little Bible

stories to them at night. It'll help them pray. Fantastic. Halo.com slash Matt Fred. All right, so we have questions from our local supporters. Great. Way more than I expected. And I told them ahead of time that I, I don't think I'm going to read any of their names because just in case it's a personal question. Right.

So I haven't seen these ahead of time, so let's just jump into it. This individual says my wife is also a Catholic therapist and asks, how should a therapist respond when a client requests to be addressed with they, them pronouns or expresses confused? confusion, excuse me, about gender and sexuality, given the ethical responsibility as a licensed professional to respect the client and avoid any form of conversion therapy while also holding

a Christian commitment to will their good. So it sounds like this is a therapist asking you what to do. Right, right. Well, yeah, that's hard. I know for myself, I am, and I don't have a lot. As a Catholic therapist, I don't so much have clients who identify as trans. I do have some. I'm mostly working with families that are working through having a child who identifies as trans. So I see that mostly. I myself feel okay with using whatever name they're coming to me with, even if, you know, whatever, I, if they say, you know, like, my name is. Tiffany. Yes.

Yes. Yes. I mean, I think because I would do that with anybody, like, anybody that came to me and said, hey, my name is blah, I'm not going to say it not. No, it's not. But when it comes, but I'm not comfortable using a pronoun like he or she, if that's not related to their actual biological sex, I'm not comfortable with that. I myself, I'm fine with saying they.

I know grammatically there is a space for a singular plural, if you will. It's a bit unusual, but I'm more comfortable doing that. So I will typically, if I have to say they, like if, because otherwise it's problematic. If I'm doing EMDR with somebody and we're working through a process and I need a pronoun, it will disrupt the therapy if I'm stumbling with a pronoun, right? and it's like getting it would get in the way like so I don't want my own beliefs in this regard to actually get in the way with helping this person even if I myself might have an issue with this whole you know way of expressing gender so whoever this therapist is or their husband or spouse it's a very tricky scenario because we're there to help people and that's the other thing too right because if you were just to say well well, I don't care if it makes you feel uncomfortable. I'm going to call you what your actual sex is.

Right. And there might be times where that is exactly what you should do, and yet you want to help them. And so what are you going to do? Just let them go see any therapist who's okay with the transgender insanity. Right. Well, there's that. But I think that there's also like, well, what is my goal?

Is my goal to change their point of view? Is it really like my goal is to help them, if I'm being hired as a counselor, my goal is to help them with their mental health. That's my point, that if they then open up to you and trust you, they then might be healed of this way of viewing themselves. And it's possible that there will be a change, but nobody changes when somebody hits them over the head with even if it's the truth. And yet, I mean, we're not to lie, are we? So suppose you had a fella named Tiffany and he says, I need you to tell me that you know that I'm a woman.

Surely you wouldn't lie to them. Right. So there I would go, why is that, do the therapist. Why is it important for me to affirm this for you, you know? What part of you? Well, speaking of parts, here's a good question. This individual didn't know what we were going to be talking about, but he or she asks, what can we do for parts of ourselves that feel too dangerous to consciously conversate with? For example, exiles who are really furious or strongly desire something disorienting. it. Thank you. Right. Well, I think with doing that within the context of therapy with someone who understands parts work, you know, like a trained parts work therapist, is probably where you would want to do it. If you're, because I think we're not able to be always perfectly objective with ourselves to kind of do that. I think if you, if you're doing this a lot over time, you will do this work for yourself. Like, I mean, this is what's great about it. is that you learn the skills to be able to work with your own part on your own.

You don't always need a therapist to help you. But if you're dealing with something like that where you feel like, hey, there's a part of me I'm afraid of. There's a part of me that is simply overwhelming to me. Then a therapist can help you with that. Because really, my experience is these parts that are frightening, these parts that might show up as a dragon wanting to blow up, right, the entire town are never that.

Once you pull away the curtain, they're always, almost always a hurting child. That is so funny, you said that because my wife and I have been open about this, so I'm not divulging anything. She wouldn't want me to. She went through some tremendous healing last year, I would say, where she really felt like if she looked at this thing, it would destroy everyone. And she even said it to me in a way that it was so dramatic that I tried not to laugh. like it will destroy you and the kids.

Should be fine, I think. Like, yeah, like, but to her, the warfare, it seemed to me, that was going up against her heart to keep her caged and locked. But just what you're saying, that when she was able, with the help of a therapist, to look at that, so much beauty came from it, so much healing came from it. Yeah, yeah.

So it makes sense that we're scared of those parts, but they're not actually, they're almost always, it's a defense mechanism. It's like when even like, think about an actual child who is out of control in some way, like is being, you know, aggressive. Well, it's always a way to cope with something. And so you're not, but just yell at the child

or shove it into a room and close the door, you're not going to, you know, it's never going to get better. But you actually get down to eye level with that child and be like, I see you. What's going on? like, you know, and it opens up, it melts. Always melt. People melt when they're loved.

This individual says for people who struggle to sit still and pray meditatively and prefer to pray via already established mechanisms like the rosary, how do you suggest that persons begin to establish a good routine for talking to God meditatively? Yeah, yeah. Well, I think there's a lot we can learn, right, from just basic meditation practices. and but I also think we need to understand what it is about being calm or being restful that the system can't tolerate right I mean I know sometimes for some people say oh it's my

ADHD or I'm just fidgety or something but I actually think like our bodies are wired to be like tense or be like on edge or be ready to go when needed like we're supposed to at certain points it's very important but we're not meant to be that way all the time so if you find you're always restless then what then it really is worth exploring i would say again with the therapist but exploring what that is right because there's some reason that a deep within i think i'm unsafe if i am calm and often to me, that is early, early childhood trauma, like early as in year zero, maybe even in the womb, to like two because it's that time when we learn about safety. It's when we learn about that we

can be loved without words, right? Because there's no words. We can experience this deep calm and this deep safety. And when that's threatened, it's almost like the body, the regulatory system in the body, the nervous system is offline. And so there are ways to be able to help reintegrate that, to be able to experience calm and safety that our emotions don't have to always be overwhelming us. And there are ways you do that that can help a person. I really am moved, I've been moved a lot by the work of this,

this, I think he's a neurologist or something passed away now, but who worked on emotion in all mammals. He's not a Christian or anything, but he's his work on what emotions are not learned by all mammals. So fear is one of them, right? And so if fear, when you're a baby, you don't have, nobody has to teach you to be afraid, right? And so you're just afraid, but somebody has to teach you how to,

that fear is helpful because if when you're attacked by a lion, you need to be fearful, but you don't need to be fearful all the time, that when you're in trouble, somebody will come. and so when people learn at an early age nobody will come then it's like their fear response is incessant whoa that's profound you mentioned that between you know zero and two how do we know that sometimes i feel a little paralyzed

when people tell me that a lot of our trauma or something comes from pre-verbal ages and you think oh gosh it sounds like we're all just going to be screwed up until purgatory then what's well Well, I mean, I think we know, for example, in babies that are raised in orphanages, right, that we're not given proper care in those first months of life. And they have like what's called often reactive attachment disorder. So they're unable to attach with adults. So even if, you know, they get adopted at one by a loving family, it's like their system, they can't,

they can't receive anymore because they never received. Yeah, it's heartbreaking. It's very, very, not impossible, excuse me, not impossible, but very difficult to treat. Very challenging because it's a core early level trauma. It makes me think of how disordered the push to make women go to work is too. Well, right.

You think these first, even if you want to just these first few years, you've got this little child. Right. And then I think all of us have sort of just been lied to. It actually would be better if they went to pre-kindergarten or something even before that. The main thing is that somebody is caring for them. And if it's not.

The main thing is that their mother is there. Well, their mother, ideally. But a lot of times when a mother dies, a grandmother comes in or somebody, an aunt comes in. So as long as a child needs to feel safe. I agree that they need to feel safe. but clearly the mother is the priority in the father. And I would think at that age, the mother.

Right, ideally. And that even if the mother's, but see, the fact that you'd have to use an analogy from, yeah, but sometimes the mother dies and then the grandmother comes in, but that's clearly unideal, not ideal. And I'm not expressing myself. I would generally speaking agree with you

in that ideally the mother should be the person. But if there are situations where the mother is not character, is not a good caregiver, right? Like there are situations where like I've worked with people whose mothers didn't want them or who are very distracted or who are preoccupied with something else. So in that case, they might be better off with an aunt or an annie even over a distracted disinterested mother.

So but yes, normally, ideally, yeah, it's the mom. But it's just sad to me that we've created, you're talking about structures of sin, We've created a society in which we've made it seem like the best possible thing. And maybe this isn't everywhere. But I think growing up, I felt that in the air that like mom and dad are working and you get a, you actually get a great kickstart to life because as a one-year-old, you get to go to this place that has all these electronic toys and colors and flashing things.

Right. Yeah, no, okay, I hear what you're saying. Yeah, ideally it's, there's a lot of nurturing and it's in the home and it's with the parents and the mother is the primary care. And that's the ideal, yeah. This individual says, I recently saw a Christ fluencer, which I guess is a term I'm just now encountering

like influencer. Yeah. I hate that term. I hate Christ fluencer even more. But the point, I get the point. And this individual claims that modern psychology is in part demonic and that people should stay away from it.

He's evangelical, but is there a spiritual truth to it from a Catholic perspective? We've touched on this, obviously, so you don't have to go into it again, but if you want to take another swing at it. Yeah, but I mean, it's demonic, like almost anything could be demonic, right? It's always the easy way out, isn't that? Demons. It was indigestion.

Right, right. I wouldn't go that far, but you've heard me talk about it. This person says, I suffer from diagnosed C-P-T-SD. What's that? Complex, complex post-traumatic. So a type of trauma caused by loved ones. not by like a car crash or something. I see.

As a result of an abusive childhood, how can I balance the longing for complete healing with learning to live well in the already but not yet? In particular, how do I navigate the shame it creates in me, especially in how it affects my role as a husband and father? Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, that's a big question. It's a huge question.

My book really is all about that, right? So it's about navigate, yeah, not navigate. beginning shame, but so much as beliterate. Tell them the name of the book again, because I really want as many people to get it who think they need it, because it's really cool for me as your friend to have people come up and say, have you heard of this book?

I just read it. And not just Catholics, but I've got a coptic friend and others. I'm like, yeah, that's Jerry. I know, Jerry's awesome. He's been on my show. Yeah, litanies of the heart, and it's the subtitles long. It's relieving post-traumatic stress

and calming anxiety through healing our parts. That's the subtitle. So you recommend that they get that book. Yes. I mean, because I could say a lot about that, but that's like huge, huge, great question, but huge. Anonymous asks, have you personally work with patients or known of persons overcoming diagnosed narcissistic personality disorder

and or borderline personality disorder? How can an adult child heal knowing they may not be able to reconcile with a parent or parents this side of heaven? And then they said, trying to word this the best way I can without details or knowing the best way to ask the question. yeah um so person like i don't actually specialize in working with personality disorders of course you can't help it you're going to get them but it's not my specialty and i also take a look i look at it differently i look at it through a parts perspective when somebody comes and says like

their narcissistic personality or borderline for a lot of therapists that's like the end of the line like that's it that's calcified that's what you are right and it's very difficult it's considered very difficult to treat. I mean, there's, for things like borderline, there's DBT, which is a type of therapy, dialectical behavior therapy, which is known to be fairly successful with that. There's a great book for family members,

I think a stop walking on eggshells, which helps family members deal with a parent or whatever or a child who has this kind of personality disorder. So there's resources that exist. I though would see, a narcissist right or somebody with borderline as having a part that has taken on an extreme role and dominant role in the system we actually in the interior therapist podcast that dr peter malinowski does but that i go on sometimes and and to talk about certain things we actually did a whole series on personality disorders and i came on and went a whole series of talks on the different personality disorders with the within the family and how to manage them. I don't know the number off the top of my head

that we can maybe add it to the show notes, but there is one on narcissistic personalities and the family. Yeah, would you send that link to us so we can put it in? Yeah, yeah. So that's a great question. It's a difficult one for family members to deal with.

I'm not a big fan of just cutoffs in families, although sometimes it's necessary, but to find strategies and ways of loving each other and living together. But when your parent has an extreme personality disorder like that, it's a very difficult thing to live with and know what to do with what did what did people call narcissism 200 years ago narcissism right because it goes back all the way to the Greeks right but um a narcissist was that character who looked at himself in the mirror but yeah they would just say

you were obsessive like egotistical maybe um you know self-centered uh you know like making it all about yourself yeah kind of thing so that's a compensation strategy right usually under that is the successive need. If I don't, if I'm not the center of attention, or if my needs are not met by everybody, or I'm not heard by everybody or something, I am useless, I'm worthless, this kind of thing. I would so love to just think that's not true

because I see the way people talk about narcissism. You go on YouTube. And what I notice is everyone's telling you how to deal with a narcissistic spouse or parent or child. No one's assuming that maybe you're the problem. Why do I have to take, well, your assessment of everyone around you is sucking and being.

It would be rare enough for them to be clinically, like technically a clinical narcissist. But I have met people. That's my point. I have, there's very few, but there's a couple of people I know

who I'm like, ooh, yeah, I think that might be it. And it looks, it's exhausting to be around. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Alyssa,

I just said I wouldn't say names, but that's only one name and we should be good. I did say to them, put anonymous at the front if you don't want me even to use your first name to be clear how do you know when it's time to seek therapy versus muscling through and how would one integrate prayer with therapy yeah well i will say that um i have a number of clients that i pray with before every session and it's usually at their request and i'm thrilled to do that i'm not going to impose it because i feel

like it needs to come from them uh but uh i love to be able to pray with clients if i can but um but there was a question before that how do I know right yeah it's can you should you be muslin through yeah what does it mean when you're muscling through and how long have you been muscling through so I I would say um at a minimum uh people like if if you're finding that it's a fact whatever is going on in your life is affecting your life in a way that's very negative where you're feeling like you're not in control in some way of control of control is a tricky word, but like of the things that you that matter to you. And you've tried different ways to overcome that and you haven't been able to, hey, why not meet with a therapist and even

just talk about it? At least you could just have one session to say, hey, is this something you can help me with? And but what happens often is that a couple comes in for marriage counseling when one of them is just about to sign divorce papers. Well, that's kind of too late. If you would come in like five years before maybe we would be able to do something or a person has been struggling with depression not getting out of bed and losing their job because of it or something and like all these things are happening and they're and they're now going to you know what I mean like there things have gotten to a point of unmanageability and they're coming in right so I would just say if you feel like you're muscling through things all the time go talk to as therapist that you trust yeah

yeah I suppose you would say that if a person's really wondering that might be a that they've been muscling for a little too long. Yeah. If you're asking the question, maybe you need to go. Maybe you just need to just go see. And you don't always click with the first person you meet either. So it's okay, and therapists know this, like it's okay to meet with somebody once and think, maybe I'll try somebody else. It's okay.

Yeah. Yeah. This man asks, My wife has been struggling greatly with the mental and emotional toll of a really rough pregnancy, followed by three more months now of other follow-on health issues. she feels like we were open to life and did our best to follow the Lord's invitation for marriage and ever since she's been punished as her body, mind, soul and relationships have all been detonated as a result as she's been sick ever since. I'm trying to find her a good spiritual

director or mentor to help her. Would a trauma counselor or some other form of counselor be a good resource to try as well as I seek help for her in processing the trial she's been enduring I know very little of the mental health profession and appreciate any insight. First of all, what an awesome husband that he's concerned enough about his wife to want to get a help. Yeah, yeah.

I would say like probably their trauma, a trauma therapist for sure, but I would also look and ask them, do you work with grief? I feel like there's a lot of, I mean, most would, but I would just want to know for sure. I'd be looking for someone that maybe specializes in grief as well.

If I understood the situation, right, like she's had one child and then it was very rough and then it sounds like three months of all sorts of complications yeah yeah so and it's shattering on some level there's an aspect of you know spiritual questioning happening as well because why is this happening kind of thing so i do think you know it's great to have a spiritual director for that part of it but it sounds like an ordeal and that there's some grief and trauma counseling would make sense in this case and get jerry's book Honestly, it's hard when you have a book to sell because it's hard to convince people

that the reason you're telling them to get the book is because the book might actually help and that you've actually distilled a lot of your wisdom and training into this one resource. And it's not just because you're trying to make a royalty. There's a chapter, I can't remember now off top of my head which chapter,

but there's a chapter, I don't know if it's like seven or eight, where it's about a woman who has a traumatic childbirth experience. And that is based on an actual client's experience. And we were doing MDR, and it was a spiritual encounter with our lady of Guadalupe. that happened. I didn't make it happen or even it wouldn't have occurred to me to necessarily invite our lady of Guadalupe into that moment, but it's what happened. Powerful transformation.

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Now, your practice is in several states, correct? Yeah. What's the name of it and how do people find it? transfiguration counseling and it's transfiguration dot CO and yeah and we're in Georgia primarily but we also have therapists in North and South Carolina in Florida actually not too far from here we have somebody in I think Amelia Island and we have also Texas we have somebody that's in Texas but they're licensed in New York and California as well so they can virtually they can see those

people as well and there's a counseling compact about to come up into play, which should have already come into play, but it will be soon, and we're gonna be able to reach out to other states more and more in this next year. Anonymous says, Dr. Crete, do you know of any intense programs for severe OCD that has crippled my adult daughter for 20 years?

She's 34. Her obsessive thoughts are all on the trauma of our family life and outside abuses she has been through. She is estranged from most of us. She has tried many drug combinations slash therapy and of course has anxiety and depression as well. Right. I'm sorry, like I would have to look that up.

I had a client with extreme OCD at one point, like very difficult situation. And I looked it up. I looked for an OCD inpatient treatment centers and I found one that was really good. I'm not remembering the name of it now. I was in the Northeast and so they exist. And that is really smart what she's asking because a place that only focuses on OCD and you call them and you ask them about what they're doing.

Like that's their bread and butter. I work with lots of OCD people, but it's not what I do every, all the time. It's one thing. But if you're going for treatment, these people know this issue inside and out. You're getting the experts in the field, right? It's like sex addiction. I mean, for a while, I don't know if it's still true, but the Meadows was one of the best places to go for an inpatient for sex addiction because, I mean, He literally had Patrick Carnes there for a while

and their whole program was developed by him. So there are places for every type of mentality issue that specialize. There are lots of places that are just rehab centers, which are great, that just say they do all these other things. Yeah, gotcha. They may be great, but- It's like going to a general medical doctor

versus a specialist. Yes, yes. What is OCD and how does it arise in people? Well, obsessive-compulsive disorder. And so- does that mean? Yeah. So it would be, again, like the ideal thing would be looking up for the criteria and the diagnostic codes, which I'm going to, you know, kind of mess up a bit. But, you know, it's where a person has obsessive thinking all the time. And so they're constantly

worrying. They're constantly overthinking. And they fall into these little ritual behaviors where in order to manage this, the sense in which I'm, you know, maybe I, maybe, uh, what if they're, they're in a perpetual what if. So it would be like, if you had a person and, they're driving and they felt something under their tire just like maybe it was a rock who knows and but then they went but what if it was a child and then they drive around to see if there was a dead child on the ground and then they they go yeah but what if they drive by oh but what if they hobbled away and I didn't see them so they drive around and they drive around like 10 times thinking about the same thing so it would be the same like sometimes that manifests in hand

washing or other accounting. So the ritual behavior is trying to, like by going around the block 10 times to see if they hit somebody, it's a ritual behavior to manage the fact that they have these worries and fears. They can't get out of their head. So what is what is hand washing? What's the rationale behind that? Well, it's usually when they feel like they're not clean. So like if, you know, if somebody's deeply afraid of getting germs or something like that. Yeah. And then they're constantly thinking, you know, I'm not, I have to wash again or I have to make sure I didn't get this or, but it can show up in I've seen there's all kinds of manifest itself in many ways I've known guys like who were straight straight straight men totally afraid they get no sexual fantasies toward other men

but deathly afraid that they might be gay and so they do rituals to prove to themselves that they're not gay and the rituals actually cause them sometimes more anxiety well what if what if it moved right sorry kind of thing I don't mean to laugh I know it's but I mean but it's like it's irrational, but it's a fear they can't get out of their head. And they don't know what to do with that fear except find a way to manage it by some behavior. How is religious scrupulosity a form of OCD

and what is your advice to people who say they struggle with it? Yeah, so that is a whole, you know, you have these guys and they're like, well, they're constantly afraid that they've committed mortal sin. That's the number one thing. They're constantly afraid.

Well, if I looked at that woman and I thought this, did I commit a mortal sin? right and and even if you tell them well you know it's just a thought it's not like you had sex with her it's not even like you dwell on it for very long like it's not even that you know it's but no they have to rush to confession and so they're like going to confession every day and that's the ritual is yeah and they they can't get relief from the fear what if i committed a mortal sin what if what if i did i had this lustful thought i must have committed what if i committed it right and then they go to confession for a little while they feel better relief but then maybe

10 minutes later, they're like, even after that, it's like, they see a beautiful woman walking down, uh-oh, you know, or something, you know, so it's religious scrup, I see that, at least that's the form of religious scrupulosity I've worked with the most. What do you recommend? I mean, how do people, and maybe what advice do you have to priests who are hearing this and they've never? Yeah, yeah. So there's different ways to treat OCD, the most popular way.

And we were talking about therapy. Like, there's specialized people that specialize in working with OCD, and one of them is exposure. therapy. And so it's where you have the person experience the uncomfortable feeling for just a little bit. You gradually increase and gradually increase over time. So that what it's like being, you know when you're thrown into a pool that's cold, right? And you're like, you're like overwhelmed by how cold it is. But give them five minutes and you're swimming and you're fine. So it's a little bit like that you're being thrown into a pool every day. And then more and more. Sounds awful. Yeah, yeah. It is. But maybe not as awful as the OCD. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

It's to learn to tolerate, I can tolerate uncomfortable thoughts and feelings, and then I can slow down, because it's an ocean emotional overwhelm. The fear is an emotional overwhelm that's happening all the time. So if you can slowly over time, like have that emotional overload come down and sit with whatever the fear is, then over time you can bring in rational thinking.

But when you're in a fear, state. Doesn't matter if somebody tells you, well, that's just not true. You can't hear it. So you have to come down from that emotional overwhelm in order to start believing, be able to tell yourself, yeah, no, that's not true. Or I know what the catechism says. Or I know what father. Father told me, you know, I'm not allowed to come to confession about once a week. For an OCD person, that may freak them out. But at least it tells them, Father said it. Father, I trust Father. So I'm going to follow that. What's tough is that any advice that would actually help you

is sometimes then viewed as suspicious and then as a reason to write the advisor off. So a father says you only come once a week. Well, that's because father's liberal and he doesn't understand and nobody understands. Yes, exactly. So what, like, suppose there's a priest listening right now. We have many priests who watch.

What would you say to them in the confessional if they're dealing with someone who they get the sense? This person thinks that what isn't a sin is, what is venial, is mortal. when you do tell them like you can only come if they do trust you and they know you're not a liberal priest so to speak and you're you're a trustworthy person and and they're able to say like you you you know you haven't committed mortal sin in this with this but they'll always have something like oh but what if you know um but if you say you haven't committed moral sin and with these types of sins and you can only come in once a week what you're basically doing is you're forcing that person if they trust you that they're going to have to sit with that emotion and it is you is going to be difficult for them, but you providing the confidence that they're okay is going to help them be able to do that better.

So it is a difficult thing. I think OCD is a serious mental health issue that needs treatment, so yeah. Is it more predominant or prevalent today than it used to be? And if so, why? Again, I don't know. Like, right?

I don't know about people 500 years ago and how many of them had OCD and how they managed it. I don't think it's, new. I think it's probably been around. Maybe, I mean, it's considered, like, it's in, to me, in the category of, like, anxiety disorders. And I do think maybe we have higher levels of that in our kind of more modern society than maybe before. But, you know, you have to wonder, I mean, there were saints that seemed to me that had OCD. I have to think of who. I used to know that. Well, I mean, Teresa Lizier kind of spoke openly about a sort of depression and maybe something similar

to that. Yeah. Yeah. Have you heard of a priest? I'd highly recommend people to check him out. He's his father Mark Foley. He's a Carmelite and he's written a book on Therese. Yeah. And your mental health, I met him. Yeah. He just seems terrific. Yeah, no, he's great. Yeah, we, my group of Catholic psychologists and I, we zoomed him in because we read the book together on Terraz and her parents had, like her father had serious mental health issues and so on. The mother died early. She experienced all this grief. So we love the fact that he was looking at her life story and her family from this perspective. Great book.

I remember the name. Didn't she die of tuberculosis? Torres? Yeah. That sounds right. What I find interesting, and there's a way this relates to psychology, is when you read about the saints from a thousand years ago,

like we had no idea how they died. There was just some explanation that was somewhat mysterious. And it almost makes the death seem somehow poetic. Right. But when you die of like an annual, in the brain or, you know, whatever. That just sounds so clinical that you're like, oh. Right.

And I think that maybe our spiritual struggles are a bit like that as well. So in other words, maybe we were reading about kind of issues that people were dealing with psychologically a thousand years ago, but since we didn't have a kind of precise modern scientific term for it, it kind of cloaks it in this shroud of mystery

and intrigue, whereas if you say, oh, she had OCD. Maybe part of the problem is when you use a term, it sounds like you understand the phenomena. I think they would have just seen the person as living in fear, right? Like they would have seen them as maybe succumbing to that, like the sin of despair.

Despair, yeah, might have been that. You know what's funny, you just made me think, my favorite hymn is be thou my vision. And the legend behind that hymn is that there was a monk, an Irish monk who was lost his sight. So he lost his sight. And so he's writing this, you know, he wrote in an old Irish like about be thou my vision.

So for God to be his vision and this deep attachment to God. And one of the reasons I love it is psychologically it's beautiful. Like he's learning to despite his illness depend totally on God. And so just for me to plug something here, you know, so I wrote, I ended, I love this sim so much, but I wrote five additional verses. And they're psychologically informed, I think they capture the spirit of the song, though,

like the tone of the song. Give us one of the stances. Oh, don't, no, maybe do that because I'll, even though I've listened to it a million times, I'm terrible at that. But you wrote it. But I do, I know, I know it's terrible. It's terrible that I can't do that.

Is it online? Some of the lines are, the song itself is on YouTube and Spotify and all that. And the YouTube one has the words. But, I mean, I have it in there. Help me have compassion for all of my parts or release my burden. Free me from my shame. Like, there's a lines like that that are in the song.

So the song, is infused with a parts psychology perspective that I thought I've been trying to explain parts work to you in this a lot in this interview but the song will teach it to you in a song form that will hopefully reach people's hearts give us the URL we'll put it in the description below all right people can check and and the great thing is I wrote it I did it with my son so my son who works in the music and film industry in L.A. He did the arrangements, the instrumentals, and the vocals. He's very talented.

Thank you. Thank you. You've got a great voice. Do you have a good singing voice? I don't know. No. Well, I think, yeah, thank you for the compliment of my voice. They'll say, oh, I want him to read me bedtime stories.

That guy's got such a soothing voice. I have a soothing voice. I'm a great reader, I think, for something meditative and everything else. I don't, I'm a bass. So when I sing, I just took me a long time in life to realize the I can get close to the right notes. Yeah. If I, if I sing it like two octaves lower than everybody else,

most Catholic songs are written super high. Yeah. And I'm always trying to sing and I can't do it. This individual says, hi, Dr. Jerry. I know that trauma is stored in the body. What are some tangible things I can do in the moment when a past trauma or wound surfaces in real time? I've tried things like box breathing, grounding things, like touching, looking at five things,

touching four things, hearing three things. You can explain this if you want. I've been told by a priest to just say a Hail Mary or some other quick prayer in the moment, that that doesn't work. Thoughts. Okay, so I will throw this out. This person has tried a lot of techniques

and there are a lot out there. What's box breathing? I'm not 100% sure I know what they mean by that. Some kind of breathing technique that helps calm you down presumably i mean i just teach diaphragmatic breathing right so you know which is like filling up the lung your lungs like like holding them up like this and then slowly releasing then holding don't don't take any hold it low where there's no error for like five seconds and then do it again fill all the way to the top and then hold for another five to 10

seconds and then release it so you and it's that holding also supposedly helps so um what does it do it's calms it helps like yeah i don't really understand fully why um but breathing number one is key i will throw something out and this is going to sound funny but the messages to the brain about safety go to the amygdala like the amygdala is this part of the brain it's close to the brain stem it's a primitive part of the brain that manages um that manages drinking water and stuff but uh it manages actually food and drink but it also manages fear responses and so when the you get some perception of threat your brain your brain automatically you know takes that in and sends a message to your body that you tighten and your breathing changes and you tighten and it goes the messages are

being sent all the way down like your spine essentially. Wow. And so what you can do and this like is notice the pell, your pelvic floor. So those are all the like around your butt area basically. Sounds funny to say. But if you relax that area and you relax your and you take a deep breath and as you release, you relax your pelvic floor and you practice doing that, you will automatically feel a sense of calm.

because you've just switched your sympathetic nervous system out of, you know, fear and fight and flare response. A fight and flight response. And you might immediately go back into fight or flight, possibly, but if you practice it, you're breathing with relaxing your pelvic floor because your pelvic floor is the base of where those messages are going up and down your spine.

So when you relax those muscles, you're sending a message all the way up your spine to your amygdala that you're okay. because when those muscles are relaxed, you are not in a, you can't be in a state of running away from a tiger. You can't be in this, right? Like you just can't.

So it's just a primitive, but it's important biological way we can manage, we can control that. That's really helpful. So this is a very practical suggestion you've just given to this fella. Or lady, what, is that it? Is there another, kind of what I do in the moment?

I would say, maybe I'll leave it at that. I mean, there's other things. Well, I mean, this individual, We don't know much about any of these people, which makes it difficult, but I suppose if you try these sorts of things and you're still not gaining ground, as it were, you might want to see a therapist. Well, I mean, I think there is, like to me,

I start with the body, relaxing the body, and then you're sending those messages, and then going to what is an emotional comfort that's true before a cognitive thought. And what the problem is we go to cognitive thoughts, right? Oh, that's good. before our bodies are relaxed and our emotions are regulated. So what do you mean by that second step, the true emotional comforting?

Yeah, so like if I'm in a car crash, right, the first thing somebody comes to see me, I'm in my car, it's all mangled. It's okay. Are you safe? Like, don't move your head if it's, you know, you want to make sure their neck isn't broken or bones or you want to make sure, like, are you, is your body safe? And then the next, and if they are mostly, then the next thing is, I got you. and we call for help.

Yeah. Right. So immediately you're telling the person like you're safe now. There's an emotional thing. Oh, that's good. And you have to be able to body an emotion before you could have a conversation about what happened to them or what should be done. Yeah.

Maybe cognitively what might, you know, you have to be able to regulate. And if you immediately, if you're, so if you're in a situation, right, more personally, so not like a car crash, but like an interpersonal thing. And you're, you have the perception. of threat may not be reality right like maybe my bot like i come into work and my boss kind of gives me a funny look and turns around now we don't know is the boss mad at him or is the boss just like somewhere else in his head and whatever but if i think maybe my boss hates me then i'm gonna tense up right and if i know like actually know a i'm physically safe i'm at

work nothing's happening at work there's no danger around here i can at least relax my body and then maybe I can do something like it might be seeking comfort but like maybe I can say hey to you know hey is everything okay and oh yeah yeah everything's fine sorry my brain is over here like you know what I mean like there's an emotional thing and then you could you know and if you can't do that you might have to do that for yourself right um I can't control the fact that he's upset but I'm okay right now like emotionally anyway there's a process really helpful that's really for all those things. Thank you. This individual says, how should we approach a parent who has childhood trauma and long time side effects but rejects help? How should we deal with this ourselves

being raised by a parent who has a mental struggle? Yeah, yeah. Those are so hard. And from that, I don't know what is actually happening, right? So I can imagine different things that this person's dealing with with this parent. It's going to be all about boundaries. Right? It's going to be all about what boundaries I set with my parents. And when you, there's a great book call boundaries by Townsend. It's a good one to start with. But it's like you, and you need to communicate boundaries to a person if you're going to set them and then you need to maintain them and you need to tell them what you're going to do. So in other words, like if your parent has a tendency to scream at you, I don't know if that's what's going on here, right? Or if your parent gets so drunk that they become like unmanaged. at every single family event or if your parent like is constantly telling you how to live your life in a way that isn't helpful like I don't know I could whatever the thing is right I don't know what it is here um you have to sit down with them and say listen when you when this happens um it's just not okay and uh I can let you know if it happens but if you if it doesn't

change I'm going to do X whatever it is so if it's like a family event I'm going to take the kids and we're going to go. So I'm letting you know if you show up drunk, I'm going to take the kids and we're going to leave. Or if you start telling me, XYZ, and we've talked about it, I'm going to go. I'm going to leave the event or whatever. I'm going to stop talking to you and talk to somebody else. I don't know, whatever the consequence, but there has to be a clearly defined, this is the problem. And if it happens, this is what I'm going to do. And I'm going to do. And I'm sharing with you that's my boundary it's really difficult because some people are going to hate that a lot of people if they're abusive whatever they've got all these different attachment issues

they're not going to want to be told that there's a boundary so sometimes what you have to do with that is say I'm so sorry but the boundary is not me trying to control your life the boundary is there to protect me because I don't deserve to be treated that way and I won't be treated that way and I'm just letting you know what I'm going to do if that happens, right? So the boundary is about me, taking care of me, right? And now it's good to talk to a therapist to make sure, maybe a therapist or somebody, to just check yourself, right? Like, is that what's going on truly, you know, or something else?

But that's kind of the essence of it. And unfortunately, sometimes if a person doesn't want to accept those boundaries, it could lead to a rift in the relationship. But usually in time, if a person won't like it, but if you're consistent with it, you're not wishy-washy with it, they will learn to accept it. And they may actually make everybody help, like you're making a healthy change in the system that will maybe benefit everyone in the system, including the person that's the problem. Anonymous asks, how do I deal with unwanted anger and frustration towards one child? my oldest a son is six and i have so much trouble having mercy and being affectionate towards him compared to his siblings is this something that happens naturally as a child grows and discipline

becomes more difficult i do feel like as my first as my first baby having a difficult delivery and him being in the nick you oh god bless you i'm so sorry i missed some hormonal bonding with him, but maybe I'm making something out of nothing. Nick, Ustay was not long, but I didn't hold him at all for the first day of his life. Recovery was horrible. Breastfeeding, pumping was difficult for me. I'm so sorry. God bless you. What a beautiful, honest question. Thank you. I would love for that person to read my, that chapter in the book I mentioned earlier on Our Lady of Guadalupe, I wish I don't remember the exact chapter. Yeah. But that mother had a child and the the she wanted it to be a natural birth and everything but it and she wanted her husband there but

he couldn't make it in time and she had an emergency um delivery and she was put out for it and then when they brought the child she didn't believe it was hers like there was a there's a sense and she couldn't bond easily with that child and so we had part of the therapeutic process was to help understand and and heal what was going on for her so it may not directly have to do with the child child, it's about what happened to her in all that trauma that she just described that caused a part of her to disconnect with the child to protect itself. So in other words, some part of her sounds like perceives the child as unsafe. Right. And so, you know, let's understand that. Let's understand why, you know, why a person might feel that way, right? If especially you almost die or

whatever happens and you didn't get to bond with that child properly, what part of you is rejecting it? And you have to empathize and understand that part and bring that, like we were doing in all the other examples earlier, you're bringing that person and having them connect with this part

with love and understanding, but in order to connect with it, to offer it an option. So what would happen if, you know, like, because I assume now she's healthy, the child is six, I don't know, but maybe she still has some physical issues. But now things are fine so that past trauma has happened in the past.

So what would have to happen now for her to accept that child? It might have nothing to do with the child or his behavior. It might be about a woundedness within her. What do you do with someone, though, who's like, I just don't like this kid? And I feel bad about it, but I mean, is it merely? See, that's my thing. Part of you dislikes the kid.

There you go. That's helpful. That's really helpful. That's really helpful to say that. To acknowledge, you don't hate your kid, actually. Like, you actually really love your kid. Yeah. But also, like, kids can be really annoying.

Right. Because they're kids, and it's not really their fault. Especially a six-year-old boy. Does a part of you hate your kid because he reminds you of aspects of yourself you don't like? Is that what's going on, for example, or something else? Yeah. Does that have to be it, though? because it could be something else sometimes kids are just annoying right and you could just not like

the annoyance that they that they bring about right but what's in the way of loving them anyway kind of well suppose she i don't know this person obviously but i'm saying suppose she does suppose she's like no i love them of course like i provide for them right i want what's best for them i do what i kind of bring it about but everything about them irritates me right what do you i mean what's your as a therapist when you hear someone say something like that are there is is the only option well you just they remind you of yourself the parts of yourself that you hate like is that the only answer or somebody else it could be like it could be yeah but something it would i would want to explore that annoyance like i wouldn't pathologize the annoyance itself like i wouldn't yeah you know

i would just you know maybe it's normal like i've i generally love kids but i have and they're not my kids so it's easy like there are some kids i don't like that much like there's some dogs i can't stand yeah like just breeds right like they just yeah get on my nerves wrestling terriers. So, but whereas other dogs I love. So we have some natural inclination. You know, I'm always amazed that somebody likes that kind of dog, which I don't like, right? So we have different preferences and natural inclinations. So there could be, you can acknowledge something of that, but what does it mean, what are you being, I mean, I don't want to get over spiritualized either, but what does it mean from a, uh, even a spiritual sense, like that I can't put that

aside, right? Like I'm being sanctified by this child, maybe, but like to, in order to love them properly, because if I'm con, if there's a part of me that is always irritable and always like, it's like chalk, you know, fingernails on a chalkboard every time. Like, well, what's, to me, that's a problem with them. Yeah. It's a great point, right? Because even though, just like you said, you know, there are some people's children you naturally like. There are some people's children that maybe you find annoying. But you don't tend to. find other kids so annoying. Do you know what I mean? Like, I mean, maybe if they lived with you, you would. But my point is, there's something about your own child annoying you

that, to use the word, triggers something in you. That if somebody else's kid did that thing in front of me, I'd be like, that's kind of annoying. But it wouldn't. It's sort of like when you go to, when I had young kids, if my baby was crying in church, it sounded 20 times louder than it was probably because now when I go to Holy Mass, if I hear other people's kids crying, I just, I'm, that's cool. They brought their kids to Mass. I don't know.

I'm not bothered by it. Right, right. No, that's a great example, right? Like, why, what does it mean that I can't tolerate myself on some level, right? Like, if I showed up and my kids were misbehaving in some way at church, that that is the crime of the century, right? Like, I can't tolerate.

So I am so, if you will, like over putting myself into my kids and therefore anything they do is a 100% reflection on me. And that then leads me to being obsessively on my kids. That could be a problem. Right. So we want to look at why is that. The problem is not in the kid again. The problem is, can I detach?

Like I mean, as a parent, you still have to be responsible for your kids. if my kid was screaming, I would do something. Like, I wouldn't just go, oh, well, that's them. But I wouldn't either go, I'm a bad parent if I don't make this change. Like, there's a control thing going on there. I want to get your take on this. I have this half-fleshed-out theory that maybe you can help me flesh out.

And it's essentially that we seek in our own parenthood to rectify, say, or make up for the lack we experienced, either actually or just perceptively as children. So I think I did that, right? So, like, I know I did that. So for me, I think one of the greatest evils that was inflicted upon me was pornography. Eight years old, yeah? But then it just kept going.

You know, like, I would go to one of my best friend's house and the mother would buy me and him pornography and 12 years old. She'd buy us hard liquor. We'd get drunk. It sucked. um so when i had kids jerry i was like this won't happen to my kids right and that's a good thing but i think in a way it blinded me to all the other things like here's the thing they can't see

porn i will not be responsible for that i also know of a friend who uh didn't have much of a childhood was just um really really really really rough childhood and so kind of i don't know seemed to overdo it with taking her kids to theme parks and Disney and obsessing with Disney and still is kind of obsessed with Disney, almost like trying to maybe relive or to live for the first time, that part that she felt herself.

So what do you think about that idea? It's like we try to give, I think every parent tries to give their children what they don't think they got. Yeah. But what are your thoughts on how that might be out of, that might end up blinding us or kind of narrowing our perspective too much

so that there's all these other things we miss? So for me personally, I wish I, and I think I'm trying to make up for that with my younger children, I wish I hadn't been so upset about them like being into video games. But when I was, my kids were really young, I thought that's not going to be my kid, right? And that was my litmus test. So long as they don't see porn and they're not one of these idiot kids who's always playing video games, then I'm good. As opposed to now, I try to kind of condescend to one of my kids' levels and be like,

tell me why you like this game? Like, why do you like Minecraft? and show me what you built and delighting in what he delights in as opposed to getting angry that my kid isn't reading Plato? You get the point? Yeah, I do.

I think your theory makes sense to me. I think we do project right onto our kids. I know I felt like I missed out on a lot as well and I think that, you know, I can remember as a kid, my dad being very like, like yelled a lot and was like even though he didn't seem to have high stuff, standards. Like he expected high standards. And so I, you know, it was very like almost like I was

determined that I wasn't going to be that. So, you know, so is that bad? No, it's good. I don't want to be an verbally abusive parent. But at the same time, what does it mean, right? Like that that am I wanting to provide my kids this perfect childhood that I thought I didn't get. So for me, it was like, for a while, I mean, is it bad? I don't know. Do I have to pathologize it? Like, no. I, I remember I put, I wanted my kids to go to, I wanted them to play basketball. I wanted them to play baseball. I wanted them to do taekwondo. Yeah. And I probably drove myself crazy a little bit, like getting them to everything. And maybe I didn't need to go that far. I could have just picked one or two. Instead, I had to expose them. I really thought I needed

to expose them to everything. But do I regret it? I don't know I regret it. Well, maybe here's what I mean, right? Because I see your point that isn't really that bad. But I think it's sort of like what we're talking about with therapy. Like if you hit a wall and you're like, oh, something needs to change, then maybe therapy is an option. And I think sometimes in parenting, you hit a wall and that's when you start to reconsider. What am I doing here? So for us, we moved to Studentville, Ohio. And we, up until that point, raised our children in a very kind of strict hybrid Catholic education, you know, very important that kids are reading all the excellent books. and obviously there's a lot to say about that.

But then I show up in Steubenville. There's all sorts of Catholics in Steubenville. They're all beautiful, but some of them parent very differently, and there were people down the road who'd let their kids play video games, not all the time, but to my kind of puritanical mind, I was like, this is the worst thing ever. I was so scandalized, right?

I'm exaggerating a little bit. But I went to the house one day, and I noticed that the family will talk to each other. So now I'm comparing two families, right? Over here, I've got the family who's doing everything right. You know, they're doing the classical education. They're learning piano. There's no television ever.

I'm exaggerating again. It's like that. But the kids are sort of like uptight and like elbows up against the world. But then I see this other family and their kids are playing video games and their kids have phones. And again, I'm not saying that because this ends well, therefore phones and video games are okay. But I just, I was like, wow, these kids are, they like their parents. Their parents like them. and they sit around talking all the time.

And I like these kids better. Right. And that was when I had to be like, man, I've got to loose the reins here because I've hit a wall here in my sort of ideology about what it means to parent right.

Right. And it doesn't mean get rid of the reins, but I had to loosen them. Right. For the sake of my kid, I think. Well, maybe to ask yourself, are the boundaries you're setting, are the rules you're kind of putting in place,

are they fear-based? Yeah. Right. Right? Or is there freedom here to some extent? Because if your kids learn simply that the world is simply nothing but scary that we need to be afraid of, I don't think that's healthy. And at the same time, they can't learn that everything's okay everywhere, right? So that's a really hard balance, right, that you're really talking about. Like how much do you expose your kids to and how much do you nod and when?

And so much depends on their own temperament and personality. Yeah. Yeah. Like I didn't have a good role model for how to be, how to father. So I feel like I muddled my way through. But I am proud of the fact, you know, that I enjoy talking with my kids and that like my son will call me and talk for two or three hours on the phone. That's beautiful. And he doesn't like talking on the phone that much. So or like when he comes over, like I'll be in the basement. Maybe I'm watching TV or something. He comes down and just wants to sit in the chat. And I'm like, well, I may not have done it perfectly, but I love it that I have these relationships, you know? So, you know, I think that it's one of those things that I did prioritize relationships. And so when, even in terms of television, like I had more, I was stricter earlier on with some things. Like I thought some friend told me that Pokemon was a demonic thing. And so I like didn't let my son, they didn't let them watch Pokemon. And then my son was sneaking downstairs at five in the morning to watch Pokemon.

And I was like, mad and everything. and I'm like, well, maybe I need to instead, like, sit down and watch it with him. There you go, that's what I'm talking about. And then talk about it with him and say, hey, like, and I'll be able to go, you know, first of all, like, what the heck is this? Like, I don't understand these little balls and I don't understand. And so he's like, explains it a little and everything. And I'm like, well, what do you think about this?

And then I could share eventually, like, what I thought, my impression is. And then we can actually, like, talk about what we like or don't like about it. And it's no longer a fear thing, right? It's not all about my fear of being a bad parent. or my fear of the world. It's no, it's about our relationship. That's great. This woman says, should young children

of divorced parents be in therapy? Well, that's a blanket, right? I don't know that I don't love all or nothing kinds of statements, so I'm not likely to say yes to that. But I think that young children, I mean, maybe, and there are. there are grief groups, right, that exist, there aren't therapy per se,

but a lot of churches have, I knew one called rain drops or rainbows or something, and the kids would go to and they would be able process things and they had artwork and stuff like that. So I would think there, maybe to do something if your child is, this is a big, I see divorce as a trauma for a child, no matter what. And it's disruptive and there's a lot, you know.

And so I would ask, more like, what does my child need right now in this process, right? And for children, I mean, I love play therapy. I'm not a play therapist, but I have somebody in our group who is, and I just love what she does. And I feel like because kids aren't going to sit for an hour and talk to a therapist, even if, you know, there's just, it's just really difficult. And so, but for them to be, you know, they have this thing called a sand tray and they have these different kind of toys. And the therapist is watching them pick the toys and do the sand, entry becomes an expression of their interior world.

Shows up, it's like amazing. The child doesn't have to say very much. I mean, they might ask them some questions, like, oh, why did you? Or I noticed you did this, whatever. So there are therapies that are really great for kids. And so if a child is struggling in some way, but not communicating it through a divorce,

I think something like play therapy can be really great, but maybe they don't need that, like maybe a support group of some kind might be helpful. But the biggest thing there to me is do your children feel safe? And so if they're, you might, this person might want to consult with the therapist if they need to or I don't know if they're talking about themselves, but to how do I talk to my children about it? What do I need to do, you know, to make that transition that's going to be difficult no matter what, as is a little less traumatic as possible. Okay. Dr. Crete, what is your perspective on how Catholic. like husbands and fathers with long-term diagnosed depression and social anxiety should approach

becoming part of their community to build healthy relationships with peers who are deep in the faith, but may perceive someone with social anxiety is a little off. I find that now as an adult in my 40s, the widespread use of technology as a form of quasi-socialization has fostered deep isolation and lack of community because it's easier to just go to work and come home to family than to make time for developing bonds with other men of faith. Thanks for your perspective. Yeah, there's a lot there. I need to, and I'm more of a visual person. So I'm taking that in and trying to figure out, okay, what is the person actually asking? I heard social anxiety. Yeah. And this is a father. Yeah. Long term, diagnosed depression. Sounds like he's trying to build

healthy relationships with peers. But how do you do that when you might be perceived? It sounds like he's saying is a little off. Right. Yeah, I mean, I think that's hard, right? I think, to be honest, I think most men, like if you're in your 40s and you have kids and you don't already have a network of men supporting you

in some way, it's hard to cultivate out of nothing. It doesn't matter if you're dealing with social anxiety or not. Like, I think that is for a lot of guys, like they're so busy with work. pressures and then they've got kids and it's like it is a challenge for any man to build a male social support network first of all and so if he has social anxiety then and then he is and depression a lot of the time I mean to me I would start with saying well you know maybe you know has he how much work has he done on that because depression shouldn't be permanent so you know

maybe working on getting out of a state of depression. Social anxiety doesn't have to be necessarily permanent, but it could be something more. Yeah, like, in other words, you know, social environments make him anxious, right? It feels, you know, might see it as awkward or uncomfortable. I think that to me, that is tricky, but I would be looking for a safe place

where this person could, be himself. So if I'm thinking about a church, for example, not every ministry in a church are going to be accepting necessarily accepting. I love to believe the Knights of Columbus would be. I don't know that's always the case in every group, right? Yeah. I would think that if someone, you know, if someone did a Curcio weekend or somebody did some kind of like Christ for News's parish, there's sometimes there's these programs that are built around, you know, like bringing people to Christ, but they're also built on community building. That he might find that, you know, the trick there is to be yourself in community and finding that people will, maybe not every is going to fall in love with you, but like people will like you.

And if you be being more yourself is important, like not trying to pretend to be, you know, the Mr. Popular or something, some perception of, I have to be funny or something. No, just like go in and just be you, be kind of, see, in little ways, like try to be open. maybe just honest, yeah, I'm an awkward guy and I have trouble, you know, in social events, but here I am, you know, like people will like that. Like people will pretend to, I mean, unless it's a horrible church or something, like people will respond positively and, you know, like take little steps, take little risks, you know, I know it's hard, but in places that you're likely to receive support, right? And maybe even some structured things. So like if it's a men's group that is like a small faith group or like yeah next to it's 90 group and you hear there's

some guys they're looking for another guy to join their group or something like you're you're you're maybe just being in a group uh like that will and allow yourself to be you you know you're going to click with some people and guess what you may find other people social anxiety also in those groups and maybe you'll click with them first so it is about taking risks but i think that every guy needs a male support system, you know, it took me a while to actually build that in some places. I mean, you were helpful when we were all living together in Atlanta and doing some of that. But, you know, the guys I meet with regularly, and they're all in different states, but we meet every week on a call and we get together at least twice a year in person.

I mean, they're all Catholic psychologists, they're great guys. I mean, I don't know, huge support to me. I think every guy needs something like that. So I hope this guy can find it And there's so many options And I don't know where he is Or what's available to him in his area But explore some of them

Little steps Anonymous says At a recent Catholic healing retreat I experienced the unburdening Of my exiled part This was a very profound And healing time with the Lord Where I was able to release

decades of anger and unforgiveness That had been buried in my heart I feel reborn My question is, what are some best practices or suggestions for moving forward and finding new jobs for the parts of me that protected me before? How can I best cultivate and grow this new life we have? I hope that makes sense. Thank you for your work. God bless.

Yeah. No, I love it. I wonder what that was. You know, I know a lot of people in encounter ministries, for example, to experience things like that. There are other church ministries like Emmanuel methods and stuff. There's different ways where I've heard that. I'm thrilled to hear that. You know, I think, I love it.

It really sounds very parts oriented, though, the way he's seeing it. So he had an exile part, and there was a huge burden, and there was a giant uplifting, and now he feels decades, he said, different. Yeah, I love it. And then he's looking for new jobs. The new job. I would use the word role over job, but that's fine. And I'd be thinking, like, well, right away, is it a child, did it show up as a child part

or a teen part or something? I don't know, this might have. And if so, like, honestly, like, the way I would look at it is invite that part to sit with you in your prayer time. Invite that part to sit with you in your mind's eye, of course. In, you know, when you're at mass, invite that part to be present when you have a moment just with yourself, you know, to notice that, to be notice the presence of that part. And then, I mean, it sounds funny, but you can ask it, like, what role would you like? I know it sounds funny. And if you just sit with that question

and answer may just sort of appear in your mind kind of thing. And you can tell if it's kind of like coming from that. But it's like a lot of time, if it's a child part, it just needs to be a child. That's its role. Like what do children do? Like children play. Children like ideally like they take in the world with wonder.

They're, you know, they can be very delightful. Like let that, if that's the case, like let that part be the child that it should have been kind of thing. and embrace it within your system. So that might be, its role might just be to be playful. But maybe not. Like maybe it wasn't a child. So like maybe it wasn't that.

Like so whatever it is. So if the part was very critical, well the new role might be encourager, right? The part was a workaholic. Well, maybe the new role will be to manage recreation. I don't know. This individual asks, so what are ways that someone can

go about connecting the head and the heart or maybe what are ways to deal with the frustration of the disconnect. I'm completely convinced of God's existence, goodness and love intellectually. I've also been through a lot of difficult times in life that I can clearly look back at and see how God was working and or there for me in those moments. Additionally, I've had God clearly speak to me so clearly several times in my life. However, despite all this evidence, I have so much trouble internalizing it to fully put my trust in him often struggle with being afraid or anxious. Can I take a swing of this? Yeah, yeah. Because I suppose I can relate to this. I'm somebody who's like very stimulated intellectually. I enjoy reading books about philosophy and things like

this. And I've had the experience too of like encountering our blessed Lord in my heart and just feeling this relief and joy and I would say one thing I do is to is to actively choose to cultivate that part. So in other words, you're probably aware, right, that there are certain books and podcasts and conversations that you have that connect with you intellectually, which is great because your intellect's fantastic and we're meant to know the truth. But there's, then there are also books and podcasts and individuals that when you engage in those formats, even if it's sometimes more of a chore, it can sort of, it can, it can be fuel for that, for that side of you as well. And so I find, I have, like sometimes for me, I would rather

listen to like a stupid, I shouldn't say stupid, I would rather listen to like a political podcast that's not going to do me any good and I know that, right, than to listen to say maybe one of your podcasts or um an audio book that has to do with more of what we might call the heart stuff right that's but i have to kind of sometimes choose it almost like a chore even though at the end of it i'm always glad that i did it yeah yeah i i hear that i i also have that temptation right like i have to ask myself you know i sometimes i would rather read um you know a bible dictionary than you know, St. John of the Cross is spiritual canical. Like, so sometimes, like, I would want,

I could just simply enjoy something intellectual or something that is just a mind, you know, mind approach. But in terms of making the link from one to the other, you know, I think that it's kind of essential. And what I've noticed is, as I've gotten into, intellectually exploring all the different saints and especially the more mystical ones, who really talk about this experience of God's presence.

And so what is mysticism sounds like this like crazy new age thing or something, but what it really means is the conscious experience of God's presence in the soul. Yeah. That's what it is. Yes. And so certainly if I'm reading a Bible dictionary or just, you know, the Summa, sorry, but not that I ever read the Summa normally before bad, but like something like just kind of intellectually interesting.

Like, I am not experiencing the presence of conscious presence of God in my soul. It's almost like at a distance you're experiencing. I'm learning about God, but I'm not experiencing God. And so what I've, what I think is, I don't think you can experience truly have a conscious experience of the presence of God and not experience affectivity. I don't think you can do it. It's not, it's, what does that mean? Affectivity.

Emotion, some kind of emotional connection. Yeah. Like, God is love. the experience of God is an experience of love is an experience of someone who loves you so if it's all intellectual

you're not going to feel that you might like it intellectually the idea of love you haven't experienced it so I would say like this is where I get excited like even reading some of these like St. Bernard de Clavaux

and like some of these guys like they're writing and they're just so in touch with the heart yeah and and you know so is Aquinas eh like you know you might be tempted to think well I'm more like

Aquinas and this And by that you mean, I'm more kind of, I like abstract and philosophy and things like this. But no, Aquinas used to like lay his head on the tabernacle and weep, you know, like read his poetry, read his prayers to Christ in the Eucharist. And they are just, he's clearly a man deeply in love.

Yeah, so he was a mystic as well. Yeah, of course. People just don't know that. That's right. Yeah, you read him and he just sounds like an encyclopedia. You're like a human with flesh and blood didn't write this. This must have been written by AI.

Well, I've come to appreciate him, but I always liked Augustine better. But, no, yeah. So what would take you there? I really think deeper experiences of prayer, contemplative prayer. And sometimes images, like there is an image. I just got this icon I fell in love with.

And it's of the Last Supper. And it has John, its icon. So it's not like a realistic renaissance picture, but it's got his head sitting on Jesus's breast. And I've never seen it look quite like that. And it just moved my heart. It's like, wow, can you imagine resting your head on Jesus's chest like that with that much, like, and Jesus is thrilled, right? Like he's, there's no, you know, because if I did that to you, like, you'd be like, Jerry, what the heck.

You're okay. But, you know, that's how much intimacy Jesus and John had that was just beautiful. And that's how what God wants for us, right, is intimacy. Yeah, an excellent book on this is Brother Lawrence, practice the presence of God. Right. Such a beautiful book. Right. Yeah.

And this is all throughout the saints. That's the other thing I think it's important to realize, right? Like if you said to Padre P.O. Or, you know, like how do I, am I cool to get the stigmata? He'd be like, probably not, you know, or am I called to have, you might say, to Catherine of Siena, interlocutions from the father? Or am I called, you might say to Faustina to see Christ, you know, whatever? They might say, well, I don't know, but maybe not.

But if you asked any of the saints, am I called to experience dynamic, ongoing intimacy with Jesus Christ? They would say, of course, it's the point. Yeah, yeah. But I do think that too often we treat Christianity like a syllogism that needs to be propounded and defended. Yeah.

And fair enough, right? Like, it's true, so you can do that. But the point of Christianity is the person of Christ who knows you. Yeah. That's bananas. I would encourage this reader and all the readers to do the litanies of the heart prayers because where can they find those on souls and hearts.com under litanyes of the heart and there's a link

there to my book but there's the prayers themselves you can order them separately and their design there's three of them and they're designed to take you take you from your insecure attachment which is often where you're riddled with thoughts right may not be intellectual thoughts necessarily but and to take you into this closer embrace, this emotional or intimate connection of security with Christ. So that's, so I would encourage them to pray those. Yeah, beautiful. Thank you.

Hey, what is, have you dealt much with autism? I don't know if you've studied it much. My question is, like this seems like something we never spoke of. Were we not talking about it 40 years ago because it was less prevalent or because we didn't understand it. What's going on with autism, Jerry? Well, again, you know, I'd have to go back in time

to know what people were experienced, right? Which we don't really have a lot. But I think that I think... Well, put it this way then. Here's another way of coming at it. Have you met many old autistic people? Have I met? Or are the people you're engaging with autism?

Do they tend to be like 20s? They tend to be younger. Right. That what I'm seeing, but those same people, like probably, if there were my age, they might have a stigma against therapy and whatever and autism is a spectrum right is what they always call it a spectrum yeah because there's ranges right so I think that they've from a genetic point of view I was just

reading this that they've identified places in our DNA that for autism they actually there is a correlation apparently Neanderthals had the same DNA code is the ones they're identifying in humans that that that that seem to be a trigger for autism and they may have believed they may believe that it had a function at one time in other words autism as has a function it helps you be stays very focused right like a person with autism autism can be very sensitive to stimuli can be very focused can sometimes especially with the higher intelligence autism like be super great at like remembering things in order and all this kind of thing so we think of it as just a bad thing but there's actually like

positive elements of for autistic people that might have served people better in ages gone past um i don't know i'm not a geneticist or anything but so all i will say is like i think it's been around forever i think that it would get masked in some ways if it's an extreme autism like the lower functioning autism they would have just thought that person was like mentally like that's where they like you know if you see rain man like it almost seems like they they're no longer with you yeah right that would have just got labeled in some way as you know this person's crazy and whatever but um a higher functioning autistic person in some circumstances might have been super successful i'm not saying thomas klinis had autism probably not but if he did it would explain

a lot actually in like how method methodological he is he doesn't miss a beat in anything like he's so right it doesn't mean he like and wherever he if he was then he would be obviously on the high end of the spectrum but i'm just saying so i think that in i i don't i'm not don't say that i said he has autism but i'm just saying someone like that it would have been masked because it would have some of it would have been seen as positive yeah yeah not a problem at all right right and there would have been certain fields you would have went went into that that uh would have succeeded actually in The Chosen, which I finally got around to watching for five years of saying, I don't want to watch it

because I don't want someone else's images of Jesus in my head, right? What did you think of it? I like it. And I, but what's interesting is the character of Matthew is depicted as autistic. Right. They don't come out and say it, but it's obvious as it can be. And so, and in a way, like obviously a tax collector, right?

Like, no wonder he was successful as a tax collector because he was so precise and blah, blah, and diligent. in and he wasn't distracted by nuances. He wasn't distracted by emotions. He wasn't distracted by all these things. And he was like an amazing tax collector. And he was less bothered by the fact that everybody hated him. But it wasn't like he was not bothered, though.

And I actually, I feel a little bit bad. I wonder if St. Matthew was sitting in heaven going like, I'm not autistic. But nevertheless, like some of those scenes, especially the ones where he reunites with his parents, like I had me in tears. It was so beautiful. So last question. This is a woman, I think. She says, I grew up with a parent who projected their emotions onto me

and I felt responsible for their moods and feelings. Now I continue to struggle with taking on other people's emotions, especially when others are in a negative mood that I can't fix. My husband is about to start a rigorous program for the next year that will most likely cause him to be stressed and moody a lot of the time. How can I start to overcome this to take this? Sorry, how can I overcome this need to take on his emotions so that it's not detrimental to me over the coming months?

Right. So in the past, I would have seen that and it would have framed it along codependence, right? And maybe there's some truth in that and some, some in the codependent literature, like a book like codependent and more might help this person. But now I see it, or in the last five, whatever years, I see it as a part of that person

that learned very early on, I'm responsible for moms or dads or whoever's emotions. Yeah. Right? And if I don't navigate that well, if I don't manage their emotions, it's going to affect me back.

It's going to come down on me in some way, right? So that is something they learned. And so again, if we're able to get through to whatever protectors or whatever managers in her system to be able to get to that exiled child that is burdened with the belief that I am responsible for everybody else's emotion,

and we can connect with that child and help them learn new today, you never should have been responsible for your parents' emotions, and it was wrong, but we can help you, right? In fact, it should be the other way around when you're a child, parents should be concerned about your emotions and comforting you.

How can we comfort that part of you now so that this part can mature? Wow. So on. I'd never thought of it that way. You know, it's one thing to say that you shouldn't have been responsible to sort of pacify your parents. But, yeah, you're right. No, there's actually your parents' job, really.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Thank you for coming on. This is the fifth time. It is the fifth time. Yes. It's always great to have you.

I always enjoy it. We've talked about your book. We'll put a link below your therapy, what do you call it? Practice. Hello. Anything else going on? Just, yeah, the book, the practice, souls and hearts, of course, that is all about parts. So there's tons of podcasts and blogs.

I have two blogs, one called The Kingdom Within, where I explore parts psychology from a, from looking at the saints of the church and a little bit theology, philosophy, kind of fun. And then I have another one called parting thoughts once a month, and I review movies and films and TVs from, again, a Catholic part psychology perspective. I have so much fun doing that. what's the latest one you did that you enjoyed uh the last one i did was on the new superman movie and what did you think because i watched it too i liked it overall uh you know not perfect but i i loved the fact that it was brought my inner child a lot of joy because it felt a lot

more like the comics i used to read as a child i thought green lantern was the best thing about that movie oh right what was his character the old green land not how jordan but yeah he was that was guy gardener yeah that was he was the best part of that film i thought well and nathan phillian does such a great job but i have a Lord of the Rings one coming out next week. It might be this Monday. Or no, well, I don't know when this air. I would love you to address this in one of these upcoming things. I forget how much this was prevalent in the book, but in the movie, do you remember when Gollum is talking to Smigel? Yes. And he says, now, go away and never come back. Now, that might be the exile, but they also seem to be like a very beautiful healing park. I no longer need you to do the thing.

Oh, I can't wait to explore that. I only did the Fellowship of the Ring because there's so much, like each article, I would have been like a 30 page article if I, I tried to do it on all three. Totally. But I want to get to the two towers and the scene you're talking about is, I definitely want to approach. Are you doing the movies or the books?

Movies? I actually focused on the movies because I feel like to do the books. It is more of a media. It's more of a film and television review anyway. Yeah. And I feel like if I was truly do the book review, I would have to more recently,

I've read it like five times, but I would almost like more recently have to get into the book. Don't have time to do that right now. But yeah, I know. So I love doing these creative things. and also worked on a creative project with my son. I think I mentioned the Be Thou My Vision.

So listen, if you want to listen to that song, it's from a parts perspective. Have you ever read notes from underground? I would love your assessment of that at one point. No, I don't think so. It's Dostoevsky. Yeah. It's excellent.

There's two parts. The first part is sort of like the ramblings of this particular individual. The second part is how he became that pic. It goes through his life. It's really... Yeah. I need to get into Dostoevsky. Years ago, I read like Tershenev and Tolstoy

and a few other Russian authors, but for whatever reason I missed out on the Dostoevsky train. Well, I always say this. One of the best short stories, it broke me when I read it, was a gentle creature. And on the front of it was a book of short stories with Dostoevsky, and that image was on it of that woman. That's why I bought that image.

No way. It was so moving. to me and and if you want to love your marriage or or understand how fleeting life is my gosh that book that short story is glorious and then of course the death of ivan ilietch by tolstoy is the best meditation on death i think anyone could experience really understood some of the harder truths it seems about the human's whole yeah and then talking you know it's interesting because we were talking earlier about what did people how do people assess these sorts of behaviors before modern psychotherapy and there's a lot of hysterical people and right it's usually the

women who are always fainting like i've never met a woman who fainted but apparently women used to faint all the time i guess maybe it's the corsets and they couldn't it could have been that all right dr crete thanks so much uh my pleasure good to see you