Pints With Aquinas - Living in God's Love in the Midst of a Broken World (Sr. Miriam J. Heidland, SOLT) | Ep. 554

Episode Date: November 27, 2025

In this interview, Matt sits down with Sr. Miriam Heidland, SOLT to talk about God's love, what true healing looks like, the lasting effects of our sinfulness, and much more—PLUS, Sister answers questions from Locals supporters. 📚 Get my newest book, Jesus Our Refuge, here: https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Our-Refuge-Matt-Fradd/dp/1968630023/ 🍺 Want to Support Pints With Aquinas? 🍺 Get episodes a week early and join exclusive live streams with me! Become an annual supporter at 👉 https://mattfradd.locals.com/support 💵 Show Sponsors:  👉 College of St. Joseph the Worker:  https://www.collegeofstjoseph.com/mattfradd 👉  Truthly – The Catholic faith at your fingertips: https://www.truthly.ai/ 👉 Hallow – The #1 Catholic prayer app: https://hallow.com/mattfradd  💻 Follow Me on Social Media: 📌 Facebook: https://facebook.com/mattfradd 📸 Instagram: https://instagram.com/mattfradd 𝕏 Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/Pints_W_Aquinas 🎵 TikTok: https://tiktok.com/@pintswithaquinas 👕 PWA Merch – Wear the Faith! Grab your favorite PWA gear here: https://shop.pintswithaquinas.com

Pines with Aquinas is brought to you by Truthly, which is a groundbreaking Catholic AI app built to help you know, live and defend the Catholic faith. Start your seven-day free trial today when you download Truthly on the app store. Hashtag none life is real. So it's hard to find a dye lot and material and a style that works for everybody. And so getting 100 women to agree on one thing to wear is, but the sister did a great job. So yes. And what you're seeing when you listen to people is not a justification. but an explanation. It is. And those are two different things.

Because then you can be encountered there in love. Versus, if it's justification, then, well, this is who I am. But no, that's not who we are. And understanding that, and if we can bring the love of Christ to that place, of why I'm doing what I'm doing, and that's brought into communion, that I don't need to do the thing anymore. Forgiveness is not letting him off the hook or saying it didn't matter or condoning bad behavior or just sweeping it under the rug.

That is not forgiveness. Like, forgiveness is taking a full account and letting all things be seen by the Lord and being very honest about what happened and whether you ever confront that person is, you know, that's a different, totally different story. Hey, everybody. Before we get into today's interview, I want to tell you about my brand new book. It's called Jesus Our Refuge. If you, like many people, unlike all of us, to one degree or another, have been seeking refuge in things other than Jesus Christ and have just found yourself increasingly weary, then this book is for you. This book is about taking Jesus seriously

when he says, come to me, you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. It's getting great reviews, and I know it will be a healing balm to your soul. Check it out, Jesus, Our Refuge. You can get it right now on Amazon. Thanks. Well, there you go. Thank you very much for being back on four and a half years. I know. Can you believe that? Yeah, no. No, I can't, actually. I know, because I was doing... I still think you're wrong. I still think you're wrong.

Did you tell me? Well, I think it was June of 2021, which would be for almost four and a half years. That's wild. I know, you were at Stoomville. I was in town to do a Stubonville conference. And you had me come to your studio and... Yeah.

Thanks for coming back. I'm glad I didn't scare you away. I'm delighted to come back. You're so dear to me. So it's always an honor. I love you guys. And Cameron, your family. We've been friends a long time.

Yeah. Yeah. Give people maybe a quick overview of who you are and what you've been doing and what you're doing now. Yeah. Well, I'm a member of the Society of Our Lady of the Most Holy Trinity, so hence the Trinitarian symbol on my habit. Beautiful habit, by the way. Isn't it? Yeah, this is our new model, so I'll just let you in on that. Is it? I know. See, most people wouldn't know that, but you're getting the first thing. So it was like a refresh. It was like 2.0 because you didn't even notice. I didn't notice, but I did notice you look good. I like it very much. So what was different?

Is it the doc and gray? It's the way that it's sewn and the style is a little different. It is a different color too. So we have missions in North Dakota and in Thailand. And imagine trying to find material. Yeah. It's hard than you think, like hashtag none life is real.

So it's hard to find a dye lot and material and a style that works for everybody. And so getting 100 women to agree on one thing to wear is, but this just started a great job. So yes. So I remember of the Society of Our Lady the Mosulid Trinity. I joined in 1998. So I've been doing this for a while now,

and we serve in teams of pre-sisters and laity. So I have, just by the great kindness and the love of the Lord, have been working for the last, at least 15 or more years. I've been speaking to public for over 20. So that's where you and I first met, I think we met at a student-mole conference a long time ago, but doing a lot of work in the area of healing and restoration. And we do healing retreats for priests,

for sisters, for bishops, for religious superiors, and just tending to hearts. Now, is that what you did as part of your religious order or is that something that you do specifically? Well, it's part of what my community's allowed me to do, has blessed me to do. And so I met Dr. Bob Schutz, who's very dear to us 15 years ago. And so just being part of his ministry over the years and teaching with him and things like that. And then, yeah, speaking at priest convocations and working with a friend of mine, Father John Burns, we give healing and treats to religious women. And we also speak at priest convocations. And,

yeah, just working with bishops now. And I just really, I really feel in my heart of hearts. Matt, I would spend the rest of my life working toward the healing of the priesthood and religious life because I really believe that if our spiritual mothers and spiritual fathers are not well, how can we expect the church to be well? And so we're surprised to often find the priest and sisters are people. A lot of times people who have rarely engaged in their own stories and have a tremendous amount of responsibility and many times very little connection with other people.

And it's you inherit everybody's mother and father wounds. It's just all this stuff. And so anyway, we can help. people become holier and more united with God and set them free to live the truth of their vocations and be a sign of heaven. That's what we want to do. So it's an honor. It's an honor and a privilege to do that. I have more serious questions. But before I get to them, I do want to know what it was like for a religious order to choose a new habit. I mean, how, do you know, like how did that happen and who was upset? Name names. No, I don't know. It's just,

They were like, oh. Well, so my community was founded in 1958. And so our habit looked very similar to like a style of the 1950s. And so it was actually quite difficult to sell. Like this, you're getting all the behind the scenes. Now the whole world now. So our sister's habit was quite difficult to sew. And so we had, we don't sew our own habits. Some do. But, you know, but that's not part of our tradition. I think is probably now more and more. But I don't know how to sew. And so it's finding a seamstress who would sew the habit to the pattern. And then a seamstress who would be able to. to take it on, because I remember taking my pattern to many seamstresses are like, I don't, I don't want to touch that. So just something more flattering, simple, easier, that would be last longer, and then a material. So if you look at, you'd be like some of the pictures of our community, you have people's in various shades of gray and fading. And then, like you said, in North Dakota, and then in Thailand, it's like, so we're

just trying to streamline everything and just make everybody happy and just look nice. So it's like the modest and, modest and becoming is what a habit should be, because it's a sign to the world of your betrothal and your espousal to Jesus. Because y'all used to have a habit that also had a scapula, or was it called something else? Yes. So, yeah, we do still. But now it's like, it's, yeah, it's actually part of the habit. So this, the scapular used to be a sign of your perpetual vows.

So you didn't wear it until you made your perpetual vows and you wore it for mass and for feast days. But now that the scapular is part of the habit. So our novices look like us. They just have white veils. So. And then perpetual vows, you wear a wedding ring. So just a tiny detail.

tell us that this behind the scenes. I've said this a thousand times on the show, but I gotta say it again, because I think every time I say it's gotta help somebody. And that is, your attraction to a particular habit or religious dress is not insignificant or shallow. True. And my fear is that people think, I don't wanna acknowledge that I'm attracted

to the Franciscans because of the beard or because of how they, I was speaking to a bishop who said that to me once, he said, don't be afraid of that. He's like, when you're attracted to a woman, it's probably not for the deepest of reasons, but if you're attracted to her eyes her hair or how she laughs. That's all right. And begin there and usually that's, that'll kind of lead you to a deeper place. You know, people think that's surprisingly shallow,

but it really isn't. It's amazing how, and of course we're always discerning deeper things, but like Mother Teresa, look how notable and noticeable her sorry is. Like everybody knows that submission to charity and there's something in that when you see her habit, the habits of the sisters that like evokes your heart to something. And some people might find like, that might be an entryway. So, you know, because you, when you wear a habit in public, it's a sign of Christ and you evangelize without saying anything. And people, many times in society, they don't know, they don't know what you are in times they haven't seen any religious sisters since. It's Halloween recently. Yes. I love this. So that's my favorite part because I've had people

actually ask me if I'm wearing a Halloween costume, but it's always wonderful because people, they just look a little bit more deeply and they're not really quite sure, but then it's a little bit too authentic and they're like, don't see that on Amazon. So, no. Like, no, real none, real none. So did you have any conversations on the plane right over? Not this time, but one of my favorite stories many years ago, I was actually in Florida at a public, at a grocery store or a Walmart or something like that.

And I was looking at my grocery list, and I could feel somebody like staring, like, you know, when people are kind of like. Oh, I know that feeling. And it was this man, probably about, you know, 40 years old, and he comes up to me and he said, that's a very detailed Halloween costume. And I said, oh, he was serious.

Oh, he was dead serious because he was so intent. and I said, oh, I'm not dressed up. I'm actually a nun. And he was so disappointed. He was like, oh, my name. Like he was looking for the polyester number on Isle 7. I don't know, but yeah, he was, it was very funny because he was, you could tell he was kind of a bit befuddled.

And then, but he was actually disappointed that it wasn't a costume. I was like a nun. He kind of just went away. I was with a priest. I was with a priest recently. I'll name, names, Father Keegan, very good priest here in Jacksonville. And we were out having a coffee together. And this fella came over to talk to us.

And it was the kind of fellow who, as he started talking, I thought, well, put it this way. And this might say more about me than him. But he had the sort of demeanor that I was afraid to engage him, lest it never end and go in places I didn't want it to go. You know, you meet someone, you get a sense of them. Yes. And you're like, I just would rather be like, hi, I could bless you, and then not engage. Yeah. But father engaged so lovingly.

I was asking him, you know, was really interested in him. And the reason I bring that up is I, that's got, you've got to be cognizant. of that surely when you're out in public that even though because i think you're like me maybe more introverted yes but you want to be careful not to dismiss people and no it's be available what's that like well it's true i once you put a habit on i mean it's an exterior sign of your interior commitment and the world has a right to know so it's very serious to go on public because it's no longer about me it's not me it's not the individual self now now if i'm unkind to you it's not just like oh that woman was unkind.

Now it's like the Catholic Church is unkind. So people have a right to know, Matt. People have a right to know that Jesus is alive and well and that there's a mother who will love them. And you can bring anything to a religious sister and she'll pray for you, she'll love you, she'll offer you advice if you want that. But people have right to know that.

And sometimes people are rude or they're unkind or they try to get a ride as at you and they say inappropriate things. But it's like that's their own stuff. But by and large, it's like when I step out of the door and I'm in public, I'm no longer my own. I belong to Christ and I belong to anybody who wants to come and talk to me.

So, consequently, you have a lot of conversations like that that are mostly beautiful, like it's just sometimes... What's been a beautiful one? So we've talked about the fellow who thought you were a Halloween costume. I mean, does one come to mind where you engage with somebody and it was unexpected and beautiful?

Yeah, I've had many of those. I oftentimes have, like, people in the grocery store, you're at the airport or whatever, and people just, they'll come to me, like, oh my gosh, I haven't seen a nun in a long time. And they'll tell you about Sister Patty, their second grade teacher, who they love so much.

Or they'll say, sister, you know, my son's a drug addict. We haven't seen him in years. Can you please pray for him? Or my husband's addicted to porn. Or it's just like all these, I think as a mother, you hear people sorrowful mysteries. And you just get to pray with them or just be with them or be a place they can entrust their questions

or sometimes their anger or. So it's, yeah, people sometimes don't know. I've been mistaken for a Buddhist or a Muslim or they don't really know. And they're like, oh, my Catholic nun. They're like, oh, my gosh. Like this man came up to me many, many years ago. And he's like, wow, they still make nuns.

And I said, yeah, they do. So I think that's why, because a religious sister is a sign of heaven. So I am a sign of the eschaton, a sign of how we are all the bride. So it's one of the reasons why you find religious women so beautiful. It's because they're a sign of heaven on earth. So we live now because we're espoused to Christ. So everything is ordered toward Jesus. We live now what all of us will live in heaven.

And so that's why it's so captivating to us, why it's so beautiful for us. And that's why it can never be kind of, you know, melded into something else where we'll just get enough people to do it. It's not about the ministry. It's about the metaphysical reality of the bride of Christ. And that's why when we see religious life lived well, it's beautiful. And that's why when we see it lived not well, it's so painful for us. Because it's not just about women putting on an outfit doing social work.

It's the metaphysical sign of the bride of Christ and the mother of God's people serving. and being assigned pointing you to heaven, that this, you know, the world is thy ship, not thy home. And so that's why we find religious sisters so beautiful. And that's why we will always want them to flourish and to thrive. It's not a relic of the past. It's God is still calling women to say yes to that invitation. So, yeah.

I was thinking how we have to take ourselves with a certain amount of sort of levity, you know, a sort of not to be too frustrated with ourselves because we are deeply loved. And our littleness shouldn't surprise us or scandalize. us. But at the same time, to take ourselves seriously, I was in Europe and I got to evangelize in all these countries. And I shifted my language from, I'm going to give a talk to, I am going to evangelize Jesus Christ so souls can be saved. And even as I made that decision, I noticed a

twinge of embarrassment because I was afraid it was prideful. Well, why would I think that of myself, you know? But I say, well, why would you not think that? What is it you think you've been called to? why would you shrink from that? You know, I bring that up just because I think embracing your motherhood. Yes. I can see why people might wish to throw that off and maybe that's what happened after the council, right?

I don't know why if you have any thoughts on that. Maybe why priests were like, don't call me father. Is it this sort of this fear that I won't be able to actually be who you want me to be as mother or father or evangelist? What was it? Those are great questions. And I think there's a lot of answers

and there's a lot of components to that. I think part of it is the attack on spiritual motherhood and spiritual fatherhood. And really, it's attack on man and woman and, like, who are we? And what is a priest? Like, what does he, you know, he's configured to Jesus Christ, you know, and he stands in the person,

in the sacraments, in the person of Christ. And a religious woman is the sign of the mother, son of our lady, you know. And I think this is my own opinion. So, and this is my own study. So I'm sure you're going to have people that are going to have different opinions. But what I've noticed is,

I was talking with the bishop many months ago, He was saying that in 1960s, there was a community in Wisconsin, a religious community in Wisconsin that was receiving a hundred women a year, a hundred women. And they built a brand new novitiate. And then by 1972, they were receiving just four. And he says something so beautiful, Matt. He said, women still have the capacity to say yes to this divine invitation. What is preventing them? And I think what happened in the 50s and 60s, you had sexual evolution.

You had kind of an American cultural revolution. You had a difference of just the changing of the nuclear family. You had the Vatican II coming out. And when you read kind of, we take for granted that we have instant communication and we have people to interpret that. Like you're talking about the 1960s and 70s where you're getting it by newspaper. You're getting it letters and months. And a lot of people say that they didn't know why they were doing what they were doing.

They were just told, I remember reading an account of a religious sister who was saying that one day they came into their chapel and the communion rail was gone. And they didn't know why. but Father said, well, no, this is what we're doing now. And they didn't, so there was a lot of really poor catechus. Lack of oversight. Lack of oversight. There was a lot of misunderstanding of what the feminine genius is

and like kind of a feminist revolution of what does that mean? And so, and there were a lot of, speaking about religious sisters, there were a lot of grave injustices toward religious sisters, where many of them were treated like second-class citizens. Many of them, so there were some real things that needed to be corrected. So this is not about going back to some kind of, supposed golden era of the past. It's like taking a kind of what, what is it?

And what is the church asking? The church is asking us as religious women to be real mothers, to live in the truth of who we are and to be able to give Christ to the people. And so you see kind of the breakdown of that and the misunderstanding of that. And yeah, I just, oh, my heart, my heart, Matt, for religious women

is that we'd be fully alive. And that that's not who we are as women, who we are as daughters, as sisters, as brides, as mothers. And that's not a defect. That's beautiful. Being a woman's beautiful. Being a religious woman's beautiful.

Like being a man is beautiful. Being a married man or a man espouse to Christ, a priest is beautiful. And masculinity is not toxic. It's glorious. And now there is femininity. It's glorious. And so what is the restoration of that? And I think what I've noticed today,

excuse me, what I've noticed today about religious women coming, or women coming to religious life and men coming to the priesthood, is that they want to live the gospel. Like they want to live discipleship. want to live in community. They want to pray the liturgy of the hours. They want to be faithful. They want to be orthodox. They want to be committed to our lady. They, you know, they want, they want to live the whole thing because for women today, when you can have, like, have it all,

whatever that means, a PhD with, you can, you can do all the things. So long, gone are the days where all you could do is be a sister or get married. And really honestly, gone are the days where it was an honor to have a sister in the family. Because for many families today, the biggest obstacle to vocations are your parents. And I remember even when I became a religious sister, my mom and dad were very faithful Catholics. My mom, daily mass goer, and people still came up to her. And that was in the 1990s and saying, like,

what's wrong with your daughter? Like, she had a boyfriend, like, what's wrong with her? So if that's all true, right? And then why would you say yes to anything less? You wouldn't. You come because you want to give your whole life to Jesus Christ. And union with God is the only answer. Like, you wouldn't do it for any other.

There's really no other reason. There's no, in a sense, benefit to that. of so it's really like stripping it down to like what is my motivation and what is Jesus calling me to yeah there's no social cred maybe in the way there could have been in the back of the day right and yeah so i had a close family member of mine say to me god bless them when i was just saying the priest said well why don't you just become a social worker um and god bless them i mean that that's like a failure on whoever's part i think to kind of show the distinction yeah like what do we what do we think of christ in the church if we've reduced them to social workers,

as important as that work is. Yes. No, and it's so much more than that. And that's why it won't, yeah, it just, you can never replace the spiritual mother and the spiritual father because it's a metaphysical reality. It's a sign of heaven.

It's the world will never not need a mother. I don't know much about farming and the land. Do you like how? You're like, I know where this is going, but here we go. But I've been told that like a lot of the nutrients that were once in the soil aren't there because of how we've treated it, something like that. Yes.

I don't know if I'm right. Yes, yes, yes. Okay, so to try to grow crops or something, they're depleted in what they ought to have because of what we've done to the soil. And so I think with human beings, though, it's different because a human being is a unique creation of God. So they come from God, but then they're raised

in a place that's depleted of love and intimacy and goodness, right? And so we just don't know who we are, or what we're for, or where we're going or if we came from anywhere good if there's supposed to be meaning to our life and so you just this is something the Lord keeps teaching me lately is just to stop judging people

and I guess I'm very judgmental because he has to keep teaching it to me constantly and I think it's a way to protect myself as I see the person with the bright blue hair and tattooed into oblivion and I just I'm so saddened by it and I think there is something to be saddened by

but that my first reaction isn't like hi like who are you in an appropriate way that is to say not the barista who's got five seconds with me you know but but that it's a it's like it's a frustration and I think a lot of people feel that way that we just walk around feeling frustrated at the state of things especially as we live most of our lives online yes it feels like the real world is like a town we go into for supplies just because we have to so the whole town has fallen to pot that's what the whole world feels like to me everything just feels like it's fallen to pot and we want to get back to our actual lives on Netflix and Instagram.

What am I saying? Okay. So if it's true that a lot of us have sort of forgotten who we are and what we're for and then that lovely line from the Second Vatican Council since God has forgotten the creature, well, when God is forgotten, the creature grows unintelligible. What's it like for you dialoguing with young women who are open to joining religious life? But like things are rough for men and women today. Like men find it hard to find women who want to bear their children and women are finding it hard

to find the kind of man that they respect enough to be with or something. How do you sort through that with a woman coming from this? Do you understand what I'm saying? Like the wreckage of society, someone said to me that if we looked outside and it was a zombie apocalypse,

it would make sense of our internal despair or like our quiet desperation. But the trains and planes are on time for the most part and the water runs and so it's like what's wrong with you that you feel desperate what's something's wrong with you but okay so it's like this cultural wreckage and if i'm overplaying that tell me what's it like kind of engaging with a young woman who's discerning religious life from that place yeah as you as you share that which we all know like everything you're sharing that reverberates in all of us and it just reminds me of of jesus and the gospel of matthew when the disciples are

pressing him on divorce and he just looks at them and he says in the beginning it was not so like because of the hardness of your heart Moses allowed you a bill of divorce but in the beginning it was not so and I just think of John Paul the second says all of us have an ache of an echo of the garden within us like an echo of Eden and I think hearkening to that truth that every single one of us like we were just talking before we even we were sitting in a coffee shop talking about You know, every single person is longs to be loved and to have their sufferings mean something and to be listened to and to be received and to be taken seriously. And we all ache for that.

And I think, however, our behavior is manifesting, because there's a difference between a critical judgment of behavior, which we're given, you know, the intellectual ability to do versus a character judgment where that's a self-protection of like, you're this, it's the character. What we do, we all do that because we're so afraid. We're so afraid of our unloveliness and our unlobableness that we'll do anything to protect against it. So we do that instead.

But I think when we can allow Jesus to show us the person before us, because we're made of the image and likeness of God, like John of the Cross, I've been reading this book I was telling you about healed by love. Yeah, what is it? By Father Daniel Chowning. And he was talking about John of the Cross speaking of the place in our soul that's reserved for God alone, the place where God dwells within us

because we're made in this image and likeness that no sin can touch. Like no wounding can touch. It's the sacred place of the soul that no matter what happened to us in our life, that God is present. And every single person has that. And I think connecting on that deeper level of listening to people's stories, like what's happening there, you know, and speaking the truth and love. But understanding, like, that's how Christ encounters you and I.

Like, he doesn't, you and I encounter ourselves and each other and our brokenness and our fragmentation and our diagnoses. But Christ, which is one of the reasons why I think, he was so beautiful. What people are just... Yeah, why Matthew got up and followed him? Yes. Because he saw that part. Is that what you mean? Yes. Because Christ sees us. And he's not relating to you. And I St. Julian of Norwich says that when God sees sin, he sees pain in us. Now, when you and I see sin, we see self-hatred,

we see criticism, we see all kinds of stuff. But when God sees sin, he sees pain. And so Jesus sees the truth of what, he sees me in my wholeness, as Pope Benedict talks about. about in Jesus of Nazareth, that he sees me in my wholeness. And whatever sin is happening there, he sees the pain behind it. And so, like, when you and I are friends, like, when we're having a conversation like that, like, what happens is, like, our heart's open to the truth and we're willing to tell the truth and be honest. And there's no fear of, even though there might be a fear of revealing, you know, whatever, you know, to Jesus, we know that he loves us. And I think that's the kind of love that can't be faked because it's not, I'm doing this

because it's a good thing to do. It's just true. Like, and we all want to be encountered like that. Even in our hardest places, I think we want to be encountered by a love that sees us and that gives us space to change. Isn't that wonderful? Yes. It's so true.

Yeah. And it just, it shows like some of the stereotypes or characterizations of fellas or women who dress in a certain hard way. Yeah. Yeah, they're not different. Like, they also want to be encountered to have their pain heard. Exactly. They want to be received without mockery.

no because all of our behavior makes sense why we do what we do like we're often a mystery into ourselves but when you sit down with the lord and you look at here's you know i've been thinking like what are the micro movements of my heart like before i get over here whatever over here is what is what are the micro movements of my heart what am i believing what's happening where i'm getting over to hear whatever that is and it's like my the movements of my heart what what is the lord inviting there what what is happening within me and all of our behavior ultimately makes sense. It all makes sense.

If I sit with the Holy Spirit long enough, like we don't randomly do stuff, even why we love what we love, what we hate, what we continue to go for, even though we know it's not going to help us, we do that, or the thing we double down on where we have to,

have ever like in your heart said, okay, when you encounter that person, okay, I'm not going to do that thing. And then, man, you do the thing. Or you say to yourself, okay, I'm just going to be humble here and let that person, you know, whatever. And then you just find yourself having to be right.

Again, you're like, And then right there, so here's them, there's a micro movement, whatever that is for you, I found myself over here. Well, what was happening? Like, Holy Spirit, show me, what was happening at the very beginning? Was it fear? Was it, I'm afraid I'm going to take it? The Lord is so kind in how he opens up the movements of our heart.

And so our behavior is never random. It actually all makes sense. So many people and hear stories. And my own story's like, oh, when you share with me, whatever that is, whatever person's sharing, whether it's something very shameful for them or the thing they don't want to do anymore, whatever. It's like when you trace it back,

all the micro movements of the heart and what the person was believing and what they came through in childhood and kind of how they navigate their life. Like, that makes so much sense. And what you're seeing when you listen to people is not a justification, but an explanation. It is.

And those are two different things, but it's important to realize that, oh, that I can see why you did that. Exactly. Because then you can be encountered there in love. versus if it's justification, then, well, this is who I am. But no, that's not who we are. So what's happening, that's sinful, that's broken, that's destroying you,

and understanding that, and if we can bring the love of Christ to that place, of why I'm doing what I'm doing, and that's brought into communion that I don't need to do the thing anymore. But until I'm encountered it in a love like that, I'm going to be probably self-defensive, or I'm just going to be like, you know what, it's okay, I'm just going to try harder. I'll just try harder. And we've all done the thing where instead of getting to the root of why I'm doing what I'm doing, I'm just, no, it's okay, I'm just going to try harder. Yeah.

But the heart is still hurting. The root is still hurting. So can we bring love and truth to the root and allow the root to be transformed? And that's where, that's where real love changes it. Can you tell me more about what you said earlier about our defenses against the unlovely? And so it turns into judgment because I think I need to learn. Yeah. Learn about that.

Well, it's beautiful. By the way, I should say, I don't think I go around judging people any more than anybody else watching. I just think the Lord is making me aware of it. So I love Ephraim, the Syrian. I have an icon of him up there. And there's this beautiful line in his prayer to the Holy Spirit, which I've repeated at Infanitum, that says, if I have made fun of my brother's sins

when my own faults are countless. Isn't that glorious? Yes. And then the prayer that's prayed in great fast is help me to see my own sin and not to judge my brethren. Yeah. But it's like social media is the opposite. Help me to point out the sin of my brother

so whatever light may have been directed at me gets pushed off for at least five more minutes and I can be on the winning team that isn't criticised or something. No? Yes. Oh, I can just feel that when you say that like how, maybe it's not on social media

but haven't we all done that? Oh, I have. It's the bandwagon mentality where someone's down and it just, I get to be the hero, I get to be part of the winning team kicking this guy. Yeah. And it's usually only until afterwards

that you realize the horror of what you've done, perhaps, but I think a lot of it is that don't look at my stuff. Like, let it be about Joe Biden, let it not be about me. Yeah. Yeah, somebody else, Hester. Anyway, I've been talking a lot lately about my friends at the College of St. Joseph the Worker, you know, Jacob Imam, Mike Sullivan, Andrew Jones, and company, the guys who started the college that combines the Catholic intellectual tradition

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st joseph.com slash careers college of saint joseph.com slash careers thanks yeah i think we have to be honest that we all have that tendency and it's the the fear of our own on like we're afraid of i really think so so if you look in i know you talked about this extensively with your guests but if you go back to the garden and you look at adam and eve and you look at they're turning away from god so there's a beautiful article it's called the chastity of jesus and the refusal to grasp It's written by a French bishop, and they use it in a lot of seminaries, the chastity of Jesus and the refusal to grasp. And he says that the lie, actually, the sin took forth in their hearts first before they ever ate the fruit. It was the, it was the lie that God is an avaricious self-serving master, and I have to grasp for what I get.

And that he said the whole project of Satan is to defiliize us, to make us not sons, is to remove us from sonship. So you look at Adam and Eve, and you look at the lie that God doesn't. love us, that he's holding out on us, that he's an avarish, a self-serving master. And so if I want happiness and autonomy or whatever God, I'm going to be like gods, I have to get it on my own. And from that, the fragmentation of the intellect, the will, the passions, all the fragmentation within, with each other, with God, with creation. And then you look at Adam, and Eve make fig leaves for themselves, which I think all of us have a whole closet of fig leaves that we pull out for different occasions. And God comes in search of them. Like, he comes in search

of you and I every day. And he says to them in such kindness, I think to be very careful about assigning a tone of voice to God. But he comes to them and he says, where are you? Now, where are you? Like, isn't it interesting? Like, oh, like your parents, where are you? Like, where are you?

That's a very different. Yeah. And Adam says, I was naked. So I hid myself. I was afraid. I heard your presence in the garden. I was afraid because I was naked. And so I hid.

And that, Matt, I really believe, is the micro movement of every one of our hearts when we are afraid of, when we're afraid of our sin. We hear God's presence. And so we're like, uh-oh, I'm going to be called out here. I'm going to be found unlovable. He's going to find out that I'm naked. So we hide ourselves. We had ourselves in judgments and criticisms to stave away things. And so we try to make fig leaves on our own.

And then we start blaming people. But it's like, I'm afraid you're going to, God's going to see my nakedness. And to me, nakedness is unlovable. And so something that I've been sharing with people lately that many times I see people have questions about is I believe most of us spend most of our lives running away from our sorrowful mysteries because we're afraid of the pain they contain

and we're afraid of what we think they mean. And when I talk about sorrowful mysteries, I'm talking about the mysteries of our life where love has been withheld or withdrawn. So if it's true, the paschal mystery, Christ comes to reconcile everything to the Father, like St. Paul says, then God is taking every single thing

in your life and my life and he's reconciling it to the Father. his pastical mystery is taking his own life, death, and resurrection is suffering, his ascension, and he's taking that, and he's bringing it into our life, and he's taking everything and bringing it into his. So it's total union with God. It's everything in my, there's nothing outside of the mystery of God. And so, like Jesus has sorrowful mysteries, you and I have sorrowful mysteries. And we're afraid of our sorrowful mysteries.

We're afraid of, because we think, and I think, I know many times in my own life, I thought my sorrowful mysteries mean that I'm unlovable. that nobody cares about me, that I'm all alone, that I'm not worth spending time with whatever that is for us. What would it mean if you, I know this is a strange question, what would it mean if you were? Because that's the fear, that I'm actually unlovable. What would it mean if you were ultimately unlovable?

How would the person react? I think it, for us, I think I've read this and I believe it's true. The deepest human fear is abandonment and annihilation. like ceasing to exist, like a total complete annihilation of who we are. And I think our fear is that if I get to the bottom of this, whatever the sorrowful mystery is, I really will be all alone and I will cease to exist.

Like a total, like anti-God, like God is being itself, right? He's being himself. And so it'll be like a total absence of everything. And so our fear is, if I get to the very, very bottom of this, the truth is I will be all alone. So I understand that bit. That makes sense to me. the fear to not exist, I'd like explain because to me, that's what we want when we believe

we might all be all alone, you know, that maybe dissociation is a way to not exist for 20 minutes or for a longer period of time. So what does that mean? Because I would rather be, I would rather cease to exist, I think, than to be alone and unloved forever. Do you see what I mean? Yeah, that's a great, that's a great nuance. I would have to pray about that because I think.

To me, when I feel that or when I experience that in my own self, I experience my own heart and people that I walk with, it's like the darkness to me. It's like the complete absence of everything. And to me, it's like even the desire. So dissociation really is one of the ways. It's, let's say part of our brain, the way that God made us in kindness, right? When there's too much trauma, our brain just shuts down. It's actually a kindness of the Lord.

And it can be a mechanism where we keep things at a distance. But to act, I just think it was where, because it's like a real-time conversation. So like, what does that feel like to me? What do I think about that is? It's like this active thing where I don't want to feel. I don't want to exist. And so to pull myself away, to me, that's a way of trying to medicate my pain. Because the pain, so if I do exist, then I'm seen and then I'm loved.

And then what does that mean? And what does that mean for my suffering? And what does that mean for my goodness? And so that's just my own. experiences we talk about that of so dissociation is we go to dissociation you're saying not to not exist but to medicate even if we don't is that what you're saying well i think there's several reasons why we go to dissociation i think it's a self-protection mechanism that is actually can be very helpful because sometimes we're not ready yet to feel the whole thing and so it's one of the

ways where we can put a toe in the water and and you know kind of then back up and put a toe in the water and back up and so you know like we said many times when we have memories that are our experiences in our life, even like car accidents or something like that. We don't, our brain will just shut down. I think that's one of the kind ways that God made us is that it would be too much for us. But over time, what happens in love is that as I'm safe enough and I'm in the presence of the Lord and grace and kindness, the memories many times or the feelings will come back to the surface. And then what I'll find is that over time I can feel those things little by little.

And then I can freely feel and exist in what happened to me without having to turn away from it. So, well, because you, Christ, I just, so I'm just, everything I'm saying, I'm going to look at the heart of Jesus and see how Jesus lives. Jesus doesn't dissociate. So how do I, how do I suffer like he does? Because he's not heart of heart. He's not judgmental. He's not bitter.

He's not vindictive. Even our lady at the foot of the cross, our lady of sorrow, she's so beautiful. And it's like, how do you, how do you suffer like that? So there's a way of standing in love that allows for the presence of really ugly things to be brought into communion. And so, yeah, that's just kind of, I could pray about that some more, but that's kind of what comes to my heart right now as we talk about that, yeah. I was listening to a Coptic Orthodox priest,

and he had this really interesting. I forgive, if this priest is watching, I ask you forgiveness for not knowing your name and crediting you, but it wasn't me. He was saying, you know, what to do when lust grips you and you feel tempted to self-abuse or pornography or adultery or what have you? And perhaps this could be a sign to other sins too.

And it's really interesting. You imagine a sort of quadrant, an invisible kind of quadrant in front of you. And you look away from where you feel that that desire is coming at you. Okay. And it might be up here. And you just sort of smile and say, no, thank you. No, thank you.

And then you visit our Lord within you. who's eternally happy, actually, and you get to sit with him and tell him you love him and receive his love from you. And I just think that's just masterful because I think what the demons want is are spun up and aggravated

and irritated or what have you. And whenever you're like that, then you're almost, it's almost too late, you know. But that's very, what do you think about that? No, thanks. I'm good. And then just to gently, leads to be gentle with yourself, with what's coming at you,

and just to sit with our Lord and look at him and tell him you love him. I love that because what you're sharing there is you're bringing that whole thing into communion with Jesus. So then it's not me over here struggling with lust or gossip or bitterness. It's not many times it's like, here's my thing and I'm going to, I got this temptation, I got that, I'm going to go over here and kind of face it myself or figure it out myself versus like, well, Lord, I'm experiencing this. and just letting yourself feel like what does that feel like

and what are you aching for like what am i aching for what do i want you know and then you bring it into communion because that's that's the goal of our life is to bring everything even our sin our temptations like we're just so used to living a fragmented life yeah we are so used to that and in the beginning it was not so well i was thinking about this recently i you know i don't know if this happens to you but i might sit down to read and three pages have gone by and i haven't read anything. Yes. I had, yeah. Or you sit and you'll pray and your brain, I think Teresa of Avala referred to it as like the mad woman who's just like running around the kitchen. And that's so discouraging. So I want to ask you what to do with that. But I had this thought

that I wonder if this is why we are so tempted toward things like pornography, horror in the most gruesome sense, violence. I sometimes wonder, like, this is how I grew up. Like, I grew up on porn, horror, heavy metal, violence. And you go, well, why, what is that? And I think it was, I'm thinking this through, so I'd love your thoughts. It was almost like, those are the only things

that were loud enough to grab me and focus all of my attention on them so that my head wasn't going down different roads at once. Does that make sense? It's so dangerous, right? yeah i um does that make any sense it does and when you say that my heart is what of compassion for you and love and it's like well i'm seeing the hardening of society today yes exactly Halloween if this is coming out shortly after Halloween for those who are confused as to why this is the second time i brought it up but the decorations are increasingly graphic right the the

the pornography is increasingly mainstream the vulgarity that our politicians use is now a sign of look how cool I am I just said the F word and just this hardening of society and why those two things go together yeah yeah oh sex and violence I mean those things often like the the destruction of sexuality like say pornography and violence is often goes together and it's the complete I think it goes back to again the complete destruction of the human person because what is what what is the human body what is that union is it's meant to be a foretaste of heaven of the reception of the other person of the seeing of the other person the blessing of the other person it's it's the beauty and gift of of the image of god and another

and that is the complete antithesis like it's the mockery of the enemy and i think it's also um a tremendous amount of violence and like anger and bitterness toward the human like toward our own brokenness and toward others it's it's demonic influence but i think a lot of it has to there's a lot of self-hatred too. It's like, what do we do? How do we experience ourselves in areas where we hate that part of us? And many times it's like to, ugh, you know, like,

and then we do it like, Jesus says, you love others, like you love yourself, and many times we do. Like, I hate myself, so I'm hating. So it's like a direct outward kind of manifestation of what's happening inside. But yeah, when I see things like that, I experience like the enemy at work, certainly, and the fragmentation of the human person,

but a tremendous amount of self-hatred within people that feels all alone and feels isolated and feels abandoned. And then what do we do with all the traumas and all the sin? And if we don't have Christ to, if I feel like I can't turn to Christ, I can't turn to a source of true love and kindness that can bring that into wholeness and community. And what do I do? I just perpetuate it.

It's like, you know, you just, there's a saying in healing circles that suffering that is not transformed as transmitted. Suffering that's not transformed as transmitted. So we're just transmitting all of our suffering, all of our sorrowful mysteries on other people. That's as true as it gets, eh? like there are things people say today like you should eat carnivore

that you know in five minutes will be overturned but then there are other things that people say like you can't outrun a bad diet like okay that'll never change like that's definitely true and this idea that hurt people hurt people is that's about as true as it gets as well I mean we all know this

I mean you hear about a bully at school who's you like you don't conclude that his parents must be very attentive to him and must love him and welcome him It's the opposite. We all know that. Yeah.

And then we experience those parts of us that wish to bully or antagonize or hate. And it's like same, same reason. Well, and it really goes back to what you were just saying a few minutes ago about why do we judge people. It's the same thing. It's the same kind of avenue of the human heart. It's the same suffering that is not transformed as transmitted. It's the same thing where I'm trying to make sure you don't hurt me. It's the same exact kind of movement of the heart.

And once again, we see that from the garden. And so what does Adam do? Adam blames God. Well, the woman you put here with me, you know, she did that. And then it's just, it's the same fragmentation of the human person. It's like, it's, you know, a variation on a theme, right? As the great composers talk about, a variation on the theme. So that's always the theme of is that the fragmentation of the human person, the diablo, the scatterer.

Or Christ is the one who is integrated, one who comes to reconcile and to bring it to union. And that through happens for purification and love. Satan has desired to sift you as wheat. Oh, it's so true. Yeah. Yeah, just to, he's always, that's one of the biggest marks of the enemy is fragmentation, disunity, all kinds of stuff. It just suspicion and Christ comes and he encounters in truth. Oh, he will always tell you the truth and he'll always tell you it in love.

But he comes to reconcile. And that's why we love, that's why we love to see Matt. We love to see people who live, who are living an integrated life. Like, that's why we find Jesus so beautiful. But when we see examples of people that have suffered deeply and they still choose, it's so, it's so, it's. so captivating to us. We're like, I want to, every single one of us wants to love like that. Like, you know, Jean Valjean, Le Misse, every single one of us wants to love like that and be love like that. But when the bishop comes and just loves him and he says, I know who you are.

Like, I see you. I know who you are. We all want to be love. We want to be, like, useless to people and still be loved. And we all want to love nobly. We can tell ourselves all kinds of things, but we want to love with a noble love, a sacrificial love, a love that will do what is good, true, beautiful, even when it's really hard. Like, we want to love like that because that's how we're made. We're made for a noble, excellent love and nothing than that will satisfy us. You talked to the beginning of our conversation about, I forget how you phrased it, but knowing your story?

Yes. What does that mean? Yeah. Knowing where we came from, knowing. I think you were talking about priests. Yes. Nuns, you said, who haven't maybe looked. I'm not sure.

I mean, I think I know what you mean, but I'd love you to explain it, why it's helpful and important and not. like a solipsistic navel gazing activity. No. Yeah, necessarily. No, a true healing journey will make you like Jesus. That's how I know if I'm on a true healing journey is, am I becoming more like Christ? Because that's what, because healing, like, Dr. Bob Schutz talks about how healing is an ongoing

encounter with God's love and truth that brings us into wholeness and communion. So healing is not me fixing myself. It's not me getting back into control. It's not me figuring you out. Healing is not me scratching at myself like Eustace in the Chronicles of Narnia, scratching as dragon skin off. That's not healing. Healing is really turning my gaze to Jesus and allowing him to tell me who I am in light of all that's happened to me

and bringing everything like we just talked about into wholeness and communion. And a lot of us don't know. So we're talking about like the meta story, like salvation history, so we must know that story, not just intellectually, but also in our hearts. And we also have to know our own particular stories, not just. intellectually, but also in our hearts. So Listery, where did you come from? What was life like for you, even in the womb? Like, fetal scientists show now that we know in the womb whether we're wanted or not. We can discern babies. I just saw a study recently that babies actually cry with

an accent. They did study with French babies and German babies. And because they've been in their mother's womb and hearing the cadence of her voice and the articulation of her words, even if they can't understand it, they actually cry in her accent. Whoa. What's an Aussie sound like? I would love that. They should do like British American and Australian. I love that. Yeah. Isn't that marvelous, though? Like the way God made us is so beautiful. So you talk about communion right from the start. And so what, you know, what is your story? Was your mom happy to be pregnant? Did she and her dad await with great

anticipation of your arrival? And her husband. Yes. And what was happening there with you? Where were you in the birth order? What happened to you when you were first born? What are your stories? Did you have siblings who welcomed you? Did you, what kind of family did you grow up in? What? And this is not, like we said, this is not navel gazing. This is knowing our story and knowing our joyful mysteries, our luminous mysteries, our glorious mysteries, and our sorrowful mysteries. Because our families of origin, you know, from the time we're conceived until the time we leave home. And many times, some people would say from the time you're conceived, like the time you're like four or five, that really sets the framework of how you see the world

for the rest of your life about attachment, about can people be trusted, can authority be trusted? Is life safe? Is the world safe? Can you do hard things? What is masculinity like? You learn that from your dad. What is femininity like? Is it safe? You learn it from your mama, you know? And so that story when we don't know our stories or if there are parts of our stories that are unreconciled or places we don't want to look at or I remember for a long time and I think I shared this, you know, four years ago, there were parts of my story, Matt, that I couldn't even admit to myself in a dark room, much less tell people about or share with people. And so, Can you share that now, or is that inappropriate to it on this podcast? I don't know, but what is it you couldn't share with yourself in a dark room? Yeah. Well, part of my story is a sexual abuse when I was 11 years old. And so you talk about the behavior, so I've spent many years, I've been on over 20-year-year healing journey, so sexual abuse when I was 11, I started drinking when I was 12.

That's what I did my 12th birthday, and then I was violated by a 19-year-old man when I was 13. And it just led to a lot of promiscuity in my life before. that I was conceived out of wedlock. My biological parents were in high school, not married, obviously. And so you talk about what happens in the womb when a 17 or 18-year-old girl finds out that she's pregnant. And I'm guessing that that's probably not a welcome news.

I think that I was tremendously lonely in the womb. I think there was a lot of confusion, a lot of conflict. And you feel that in your body, like even how your brain forms. It's just, yeah, it's just amazing. So I've spent years and years and you're studying this. And so what does that mean? Does it mean you're a mistake? You know, does it mean you shouldn't be here?

And people can give you all kinds of theological. But every child that has kind of an adverse conception, whatever, whether it's through rape or whatever, there's something one has to walk through of, well, what does it mean? What does God say? Because the truth is God is present and he is the one who allows the conception and the child to come forth. There's a million things that could go wrong. So the fact that you and I even hear today as human beings is a testament to God's love. And so there was a lot of fall. And then how I found out that I was adopted

and just a lot of things that had happened where I kept a lot of secrets. And there's a great saying in 12-step meetings that were only as sick as our secrets. And I had a lot of them. And so as an addict, I was a full-blown addict by the time I was in college. I played Division I volleyball in college.

I wanted to work for ESPN. And so I just had like a lot of stories in my life that and then you can tell that at a 30,000 foot, there's 15,000 foot, then there's like the ground zero. And then, you know, what does that feel like? What do you notice? What do you believe about yourself?

And so these are very deep. What does that mean, 30, 15? We can all tell our story. So, like, I just told you my story because of what's appropriate. I told you it at about a 10,000 foot level. Yeah. So it wasn't 30,000. I did get a little bit.

So I'm telling you what I feel, what's safe enough and what's appropriate for this setting, right? With somebody that I was working with my therapist or something, it would be a much, it would be ground zero. But so we can, and even kind of understanding that, that you and I can live at a 30,000 foot level of like, oh, yeah, that happened to me, but that's a long time ago. but what we don't understand is that these things affect us deeply. They affect how we see relationships. Do relationships last? What does conflict mean? When your parents were arguing with each other,

what was that like for you? And we bring that into the priesthood. We bring that into religious life. We bring that into our marriages. And then no wonder, no wonder, when your spouse shuts down and turns away from you, if you feel panicked and you feel like, oh, my gosh, everything's about to end.

And you're a grown man, and you're like, what's wrong with me? And you're like, oh, there's, there's nothing wrong with you. That's your heart telling you something, a story, right? So, okay, what's happening there? So this is what I'm talking about. So, so many times what happens with priest and sisters and, you know, bishops, God bless our bishops, can I just say that?

Because we do a lot of with bishops. And they, by and large, Matt, they're such lovely men, men who have inherited many ways in a possible job, who are consulted constantly by a team of lawyers. And how many times are told first to consult legal counsel before you consult the counsel of the Lord. And it is not easy. And, you know, priests with their bishops

and bishops with their priests. Like, there's just so, like, you talk about like the fragmentation of a presbyterate. I mean, men united in the presbyterate is a union unlike anything else and it's strong. So the enemy is always going to go after a presbyterate. He's going to try to divide them. He's going to try to divide the bishop to his priest.

And so many times when you talk to bishops and you hear their stories, like, their stories when they were boys. And then what it was like for them as priest and then now brought into this kind of new level of governing, to teach to govern to sanctify. And many times they're isolated. Many times they're fractioned among themselves.

And so you just see, you get to begin to see people. And then when you can hear their stories and bring Christ into those places and then help open their hearts to be free to love, then they can give the gift of themselves. Wouldn't we love our bishops to be fathers to their priest and priests to receive that fatherhood? Every single priest that I know wants to have their bishop call them

and not for a reason to get into trouble, be like, hey, how you doing? Just thinking about you, how you doing? Like, we all want that. Like, we want our superiors to call us just because they love us, not because, well, can you do this for me? We all know the thing of, like,

when somebody calls you when they want something or when you're in trouble, but it's like your kids, too. It's like, you come home from work, right? And you're like, hey, son, you want to, what do you want to go for a walk versus like, oh, did you clean your room? It's like, it's the same thing.

So, yeah, that's the kind of thing where Jesus. And I suppose priests having to understand the almost impossible task the bishop's being given. Yes. And to have compassion on him when he's not calling them to ask how they're doing?

Yes. Is that part of it? Well, I think understanding that, yeah, bishops have their own story. I think we kind of joke, but it was like, yeah, nuns are people too. Like priests are people too, bishops are people too.

And many times bishops are people that they don't know, they don't know how to father. They don't, what do you do? What do you do with the men who are older than you that actually push back on you? What do you do when you see things that decisions that you don't agree with

that or that inherently wrong, or whatever you think that is. It's like, what do we do with that? And that's the thing is like, what do we do we do we do we do say things need to be said? Do we bring them into community with Jesus? Or am I sitting there either on my cell phone judging them, like making comments, whatever it is in social media or gossiping.

I think God, I really, Matt, I'm telling you, the Lord has convicted me so deeply over the years about the danger of gossip. It is so poisonous because once you say something, you can't ever unsay it. And I have done this and I've had to go to confession for it. And I've had it done to me. It's like, we've all had our opinions changed about people by the gossip of others.

Yes, yes. And once the enemy loves that kind of stuff. And but once we get to the heart of like, why am I gospel? What is, because that's the same thing too. It's the micro-movements. So say gossip is the exterior thing that happened. But what was happening in my heart? What are the micro-movements?

Was I afraid? Was I jealous? Was I angry? Yeah. Was I posturing? Yes. Was it, oh, I have more information here and I just want to belong. So I'm just going to say that gossip that it wasn't.

And until we get to that, but I think... Because the one of the most fun about gossip is it does create intimacy. A false intimacy. Yes, it does. But it's still there. It's a holy soul tie. Yep. It's true.

Yeah. It's true because it's like I had this a bit of information that I'm going to share with you. And maybe you agree with me and we're like, oh, man, that person, they just did this. And it creates... I agree that it's false intimacy, but why is it false? Why do you say it's false intimacy? Because it's based on a sin. I mean, it's based on a life.

And it's based on something else. It's not about your heart or mine. No. It's about a collaboration in regards to something we have no right to talk about, perhaps, or a lie. And it's one thing for me to say to come to you as a friend and say, say there's something over here. I'm like, hey, can you help me with this? And you aren't getting on my bandwagon. So there's no bandwagon jumping.

It's like you're listening. And you might say, hey, sister, have you thought about this? Or you're just listening and you're like, oh, yeah, I could understand how you feel that way. But then you're not putting fuel on the fire. That's different than you and I, whatever. I mean, we don't, but you don't mean commiserating or whatever that is, so. My good wife, if she has a problem with me

that she can't work through, she'll call a friend who she knows will take my side. Okay, yes. And that's her advice to women. That's, I remember we were in a C-C together and we were talking to some engaged couple and that was what she said to the lady. Like, always call a friend who'll take his side

and she said to him, always call a fellow who'll, yeah. Because that's a good word. Yeah. Because it's true. I mean, and that, yeah, and that isn't, of course, to say that there's something that needs to be fixed in this person

or that they need to repent of, but it's just to try to at least avoid the bandwagon thing. Oh my gosh, yeah. And yeah, I think. Cossop, man, yeah, sorry. No, it is true. So that's an example of what happened,

can happen in a religious community. It can happen in a place of work. It can happen in a family. Like when the family talks about, oh, can you believe, you know, Sherry? It's so common for us, unfortunately, and it just reveals the brokenness of our heart. And withholding gossip doesn't feel terribly satisfying or heroic. It's true.

Do you know what I? No one's congratulating you because the thing that you just did is invisible. Yeah. So they can't see it. It's true. But if I say something bad about that other person that I'm brought into a circle, I'm patted on the back, I'm told I have the right opinions, that I'm work maybe or that I'm based or whatever. Come on. That's a good word.

I don't know which priest it was. It's a saint. Maybe you remember. So the penitent confessed gossip, and he said to go out into the street with a pillow and to shake out all the feathers. And then once they were, I don't know if this is really what was happening.

I've heard that anecdotally somewhere. I don't even know where it comes from. And then he told him to go throughout the city to collect them all. And of course, when he couldn't collect them all, that's what gossip's like, yeah. It's true. And, yeah, it's,

Once you say something, you can't everyone say it. And you can go back and you can repent, but it's really. But the effects are done. And are ongoing. Yes. I've done that. I've said something about somebody on my podcast once upon a time. And I think I said it to, I think I said it to posture a little to sort of win the favor of a certain something.

Yeah. And as soon as it left my lips, I went, shit. And now it was live too. So I reached out to that individual and, and, said how sorry I was and, you know, received more of a, well, it's going to take a lot more than that. And they weren't wrong. And I went to confession. But it's right. Like even as we are confessing the sin of gossip, say, slander, what have you, that it's, yeah, we have every reason to think that the sin is still spiraling out there somewhere. It's like fresh effects after

the repentance has already been done. Wow. Well, and I just think, Matt, what you said there was really beautiful because it's one thing to go to confession and say I gossiped, but you, it sounds like the Holy Spirit brought you to the root of it because the root, the tender, what feels so vulnerable is like, like you said to the posturing,

to like the win the favor of the guest. And like that, that's the root. That's the micro movement right there. Yeah. So it's like when I have the temptation to gossip or whatever that is, like, okay, well, what's happening in my heart right now? Like, all right, Holy Spirit.

And it's with the Holy Spirit, what's going on my heart now? I really want to, I really want to impress somebody. I really want to Holy Spirit just come, you know? And that's the place where the Lord comes to the root of our hearts. And because you know what, Matt, all of us know people that don't ever gossip about people. They are like a tomb in the holiest sense because we know that whatever we share with them, they're not going to jump on our bag and they're not going to share about it.

They're not going to share about the person who just came to them. It's like, don't we love people like that? That we know that they're not going to gossip about us by the time, you know, they're not going to gossip about us. It's like we love that kind of. integrated love. So I just want to harken our hearts to that. What do we love about that? And that's what we're called to. I want to tell you about Hello, which is the number one downloaded prayer app in the world. It's outstanding. Hello.com slash Matt Frad. Sign up over there right now and

you will get the first three months for free. That's like a lot of time. You can decide whether it's useful to you or not, whether it's helpful. If you don't like it, you can always quit. Hello.com slash Matt Frad. I use it. My family uses it. It's fantastic. There are over 10,000 audio guided prayers, meditations, and music, including My Lofi. Hello has been downloaded over 15 million times in 150 different countries. It helps you pray, helps you meditate, helps you sleep better. It helps you build a daily routine and a habit of prayer. There's honestly so much excellent stuff on this app that it's difficult to get through it all.

Just go check it out. Hello.com slash Matt Frad. The link is in the description below. It even has an entire section for kids. So if you're a parent, you could play a little Bible. stories to them at night it'll help them pray fantastic hello dot com slash mat frad yeah we love gossip in a superficial kind of titillating sense maybe or something that might be the wrong word i think but you know when you're on youtube and someone saying all these things about somebody else we we love

them for that yeah but in a superficial oh i'd never share anything with them kind of sense you know unless you believed yourself to be on their team because of how they were signaling and then maybe but yeah no you're exactly. It's sort of like, I mean, I still struggle with, well, many things, but swearing occasionally. And I'm really trying to get better at that. I think I just swore a moment ago. But what am I saying? Oh, but we all know men and women who, not only have they never sworn around you. Do you say sworn? That word felt weird as it fell out of my mouth. Cuss, I think you say in America more. I don't know. We've all met people who don't cuss, but also who never made you feel weird when you did. Yes.

Or like judge you. It's like Alyosha from the brothers Karamazov who just sort of treated everybody with a sort of like he didn't like act in certain ways. Have you read the brothers? Many years ago, yes, many years ago. He's living with his father Fyodor whose house has become a awful place

and all of his sins are on display but that Alyosha never engaged in those sins and that Fyodor never felt judged because of them. Now you could misunderstand what I just said there and go, well, he had a right, he would have a right to correct him. And that's, there's truth of that too. But there's really something beautiful about the person that you feel like is the thing they're least interested in is judging you.

And maybe what they would correct in you, they would correct it in you only because it's causing you pain and you get the sense that that's why they're bringing it up, maybe, and even then gently. I feel like I've said stuff on this show. And I might wince thinking that you have listened to it. And then even if you brought it up to me, like I never felt criticized by you, which is really beautiful because I think you would probably correct me

if you thought I said things that were completely like, right? I hope you would. Yes. But there's people in my life like you and others who I feel like could almost correct me without correcting me. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Well, but Matt, I think what you're saying is so beautiful

because you're talking about that's Jesus. That's Jesus sitting with the tax collectors and the prostitution. That is exactly what you're talking about, a man who isn't engaging in their sin and a man who's not judging them, but his very presence is convicting, right? And it makes them want to be better. That's Christ. I mean, like, oh, you're just like your leaders eating with tax collectors and sinners and. Yeah, presumably they enjoyed him. It's like, do you know what I mean? I mean, presumably he wasn't moralizing. No. Because people don't tend to hang out and eat with people who judge them and look down their nose of them. them and even when he says to the woman caught an adultery sin no more he begins by saying i don't judge you it's exactly that's the truth and the love yeah which we need them both and so is it time for us all to quit social media is that what we're getting at i just i think i think god i we're going to come up with a different name for social media we got to call it something like a slander mill or a uh yeah i i just think we have to be in whatever a

level we're engaged in social media, I think it would be very careful because I don't know if we can be. I don't think it works. I think it's like saying just watch porn but be I'm not say okay let me back up one is intrinsically evil one is not but um both seem to target this part of us in a way that they overpower us they can it's it's like the phone where you think no I can control it and then you realize I can't and so I really need to set up strict parameters in order to engage with this thing. I'll tell myself forever. No, no, no, no. Like, I, I know how to use this without it using me. Anyway, sorry. No, I think you're onto something. And I think that's very true. And I, yeah, like you and I were chatting before we started even, it's just noticing it gives

everybody the power to have an opinion, to have an instantaneous opinion, to hide behind anonymous accounts and kind of spout off opinions. And now all of a sudden, I'm empowered. I'm entitled to have an opinion about this when quite frankly the enemy's just using it to like outrage us or to disfragment you know it's all the things where we're constantly living you talk about union with christ is that what heals us it constantly is like pushing us out of ourselves out here so now i'm engaged in things that i don't even need to know about i have nothing to do with me now i'm emotionally engaged in some drama over here that has zero i mean isn't it can you just see it's like wow and not just yeah not just trivial peripheral things yes but meaning

meaningful things that you're now pulled into that you still don't need to have an opinion on. It's true. Like horrible events that are happening around the world that you now feel guilted into having an opinion on or being invested in and having to think through and talk about when, you know, there are people in your house who you could be loving better than you are. I think John Eldridge, when he was on your podcast, he made a really good point that the soul was never meant to bear that kind of information overload and just we were not meant. we're now entering into a new era of technology and AI that the soul was we were never meant as human

beings to bear these kind of things and so no wonder it's fragmenting and I think yeah I think we need to notice that and be honest about that yeah what do we do because apparently we can't retreat from the world well I guess we could but even there we can't of course I'm thinking of the imitation of Christ yes you know the husband says if only were a monk and the monk thinks if only are a husband sure but uh it does feel increasingly hostile against the interior life doesn't yes because even earlier you know you were talking about these micro movements micro movements you have to be attentive to yourself to in order to even perceive those sure but if i'm just listening to podcast 24 7 and reels on ticot or what have you there's no i'm not even i'm not

attentive to me that's a good point yeah and there's not an app for that that old phrase, right? There's not an app. There can only be a deletion of apps to get to that. Yes. A turning away from apps to get to that. Yeah. And I'm sure there's a ton of apps that try to help you.

But no, it's the much more, it's the poverty thing. It's like, how could poverty be good? Yes. What are Christians talk about poverty like, it's good. Yeah. Yeah, digital poverty, something like that. It's true. It seems to me that if we're,

are going to engage it. It does have to be engaged on a timetable and limited. I just think of, this might be silly, but pride and prejudice, you know, when, oh, I want to read that book. My daughters love it. When Jane Bennett, after Mr. Bingley dumps her, she goes to London with her aunt and uncle, and she comes home, you know, back to back home and Elizabeth Bennett asks her, you know, how wasn't? She's like, I was so diverting. Like, you should go to London. It's so diverting. And I just thought that was interesting of like, it's so diverting of, she was broken. hearted and she needed a diversion. So it's like, what are the diversions? Really the divert, right? What are the diversions in my life that are regularly pulling me out of intimacy and union and

real life and people that I live with and serve with where, you know, if I'm unable to even maintain presence with somebody because I'm constantly, it's like, what are the diversions? Like, it's so diverting. Yeah. We have so, we have a diversion. We have London in our pocket. It's true, yeah. Gally. Yeah. Yeah. But, Anas. Tell me about this book, since you have it on the table and told me I should get it. I did. So I love, this is a book that I've recently come across, Father Daniel Chowning, who's a Carmelite priest. I can show it to your listeners here. But the title is healed by love, contemplation as a path of healing according to St. John of the Cross. Just even that title,

I'm like, be still my heart. Contemplation as a path of healing according to one of the deepest spiritual masters that the church has. So can I see it? Of course you can. you go right ahead. Yeah. It's really, I believe he's at Holy Hill in Wisconsin, and it just came out in 2025. So it's just really, really beautiful, Matt. I would highly recommend it. And he talks about the soul, about the senses, about how we're ordered as human beings, and how it's the whole person that is healed. And John of the Cross, you know, talks about the purgation, right? The prigation of the wood on the fire and the window pain, right, is it lets the glass in, but it's the purgation of the heart of all of us

that allows us to become fully in union with God. The union with God is always the end goal. And I like that because right now, healing is such a pop phrase. It's such a pop culture thing. And it seems like everybody's talking about healing. And I love that he's not, John of the Cross is not talking about pop culture.

He's talking about union, like life with Christ. It's everything you and I have just spent the last hour or so talking about it's love of God. Mother Gloria Therese. Isn't she lovely? She's beautiful. Yeah, she's so lovely. Yeah, and you just think of the relics of St.

Chrez right now are coming across the country and like the carmelites the whole yeah I'd be pretty frustrated if I was in Luzur right now like she's actually in Wisconsin wouldn't you be upset about that I just I'd to laugh like aren't Catholics funny like we're just kind of funny we should have a whole file that's kind of weird Catholic stuff where we just like take bones of saints around and we got a fingernail here and like they cut off St. Catherine of Sianna's head and her body's in Rome but her head's in Siena I'm like I love being Catholic Like, it's just so, it's just so awesome. There's a bit there for a comedian, right?

Yes. Because it's like no one, no one more than the Catholic Church talks about respecting the body. But if you're holy and then die, we throw you in the chipper and we distribute you throughout the world. Isn't it so funny? It's bananas, yeah. I mean, obviously both know people that have relics. And there have been times I'm like, dude, how did you get that relic? Like, what is that?

And I just, it let me in Catholic. But yeah, St. Teres right now coming across the U.S. Oh, I love her. In the Jubilee of Hope, so the Jubilee of Hope is not over yet. And so you think of her, this. beautiful saint, which you, you know, you gave me a book about St. Terez also when we were eating with coffee. And just like, she has a gift, the little way. So it's everything we're talking about, the little way with Christ of our littleness of bringing everything into union

with Christ, of all of our temptations, our struggles, our hopes, our desires, everything into union with Jesus in a little way in this jublier of hope. Like, God is trying to give us graces, Matt. I really, he is trying just so hard to just pour out his grace upon us, if only we could receive it. One of the points I'm making my new book, Jesus, Our is this idea that often intentionally, probably unintentionally, we reduce Christianity either to like a syllogism or a moral system.

And it's, you know, you think of it that way. You're like, gosh, Christianity's true. Like here's the premises, here's the conclusion. If you got on board, humanity would flourish. And it would. Or you talk about the system of the moral system and the church's views on, say, human sexuality. And certainly it's the most beautiful of all morality.

That's the case. um first and foremost it's a person yeah and we're called not to follow a syllogism or a moral system primarily we're meant to encounter a person and it occurred to me that you know if you said to padre or catherine of ciena or someone else who's that fellow who flew around the place cintzes or cupritino yeah like you said yeah am i called to get the stigmata or am i called to have interlocutions with the father or to levitate, their answers would probably be, I don't know, probably not, though, I don't know. But if you said to any saint, am I called to a dynamic, ongoing, experiential intimacy with the

Holy Trinity? The answer is, yeah, obviously, yes, that's the point of Christianity, isn't it? But that requires intimacy, doesn't it? That's what's scary about it. So if it's just a moral system, if I can just disprove people or point out the perversions and the horrors that are taking place and here's the argument that I'm in charge and I'm running the show and again I'm not saying there's not a place for that clearly there's a place for that but intimacy with Jesus involves bringing my wounded self into the picture yeah yeah there's a

beautiful book coming out the a ave Maria press is reprinting it it's called friendship and the lord and it's by a dominican priest and father paul hinnabush and it'll be out in 2026 and father paul Hina Bush, who was way ahead of his time. He's writing in this in the 1970s, but he talks about intimacy meaning being at home with someone. And I love that because many times we think about intimacy and we all automatically go to sexual intimacy or it's even the word intimacy, it's like, we can be like, oh, but he said intimacy is being at home with someone. And there's different levels of being at home. So you look at intimacy with God, with Jesus. So for you, like, what does it mean? What does it feel like for you? What is your life like when you're,

at home with Jesus. Because when we're at home with somebody, what happens? Our guard comes down. Our heart comes out. Our desires, our hopes, our dreams, our sins. Everything is brought into communion. There's safety to make mistakes. There's safety to be told the truth. Even just like what it feels like when you're at home, like you think about camera and you think about your kids like, so when I'm at home with somebody, that's intimacy. The first thing I feel is my shoulders relaxing. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And so I love that definition because there's a levels of homelessness with people, right? So, but that kind of, it's really a test for me when in, with my relationship with Jesus,

like, okay, Lord, are the things where I'm not at home with you, where I'm still trying to hide or something comes up. I'm like, I don't want to talk about that or, you know, just even people that God's calling me to be authentically at home with, like what am I at home with him? Am I telling, you know, I have a podcast too, abiding together, and Michelle and Heather some of my best friends, and we share very deeply with each other. And it's like, are there still places where I don't, I don't want them to know that, or I'm afraid to admit that.

And so it's a really good test, like in our marriages and whatever that is with our religious sisters, you know, is, am I at home? And if not, like, where am I? Like, where are you? I might be in the back somewhere. I might. So just even that, we might notice in our hearts, I think all of us at places where we don't even feel home with God. We're afraid we have to be something we're not.

Or going home can evoke all kinds of thoughts on us. Like, I have to, you know, whatever that is. But I just love that. I'm like, I just want to be at home. with you, Jesus. I don't want anything separating me in Jesus ever, ever, ever. So, Lord, whatever that is, I pray to the Holy Spirit every day. Holy Spirit, tell me things I don't want to know about myself. Like, I want to know the truth. I want to know the truth, the whole truth, and nothing about the truth. Like, I want everything to be in union with Christ. I don't want to be separated from

him. And I just think even that prayer, got a long way to go. I think that prayer is like, I just want to be at home with you, Lord. I want to live at home with you. Nazareth. I want to live at home with you talk about how this healing business that we've been talking about leads to union with god and i'm pretty sure i brought this up four years ago and you already said as much that like this language of healing is so uh commonplace ted talk sort of stuff that it you know so i can imagine someone listening to this and going all right this this doesn't sound like the new testament like when i see paul talking i don't i don't and maybe they're wrong to think this but they might say i don't see him talking about like embracing our inner child like isn't this just some secular hogwash that we

should yeah that isn't nearly as important as you think it is i'm sure you've heard this sort of objection oh yeah well we talk about we talk about this all the time and kind of what we do uh i think there's a difference between modalities there's modalities and then there's christ what is modalities modality is the way so you're talking about inner child work that's a modality of healing um internal family systems is a modality, EMDR, cognitive behavioral therapy, somatic experiencing, all those, those are modalities of to help somebody encounter the truth of whatever's happening. Okay, so I'm a huge fan of modalities. I think they're great.

I think whatever, if they're properly in line with the Christian anthropology of what it means to be human, modalities can be helpful, but modalities just prepare us, ideally for an encounter with Jesus. So you had Dr. Jerry Crete on earlier, and he's a big proponent of internal Family Systems. That's a modality. But internal family systems helps us to see what parts of us are holding beliefs or burdens that we're not meant to carry or beliefs that aren't true. Why? So then we can encounter Christ there. So Christ is about healing. He's healing the human person. So everything Jesus does is healing. That's what reconciliation does. That's like St. Paul is saying that Christ comes to reconcile all things to the Father. So sin is fragmenting. Christ comes to heal. And so that's why healing is not. That's why we have to understand like definitions matter, right? Healing is not fixing. It's not me getting my pain to go away even. Healing is an ongoing encounter with God's love and truth. And that love and truth brings me into wholeness and communion. So Pope Benedict in space salvay, and I think he's talking about

purgatory, but the purgation of life, even in the, in the Magnificat, November's Magnificat on November 2nd, there's a whole excerpt from Pope Benedict talking about purgatory, about what it does that sets things right in right order and it purifies us. So that purification, that purgation of our whole life brings us to become like Saint what Pope Benedict says, more truly ourselves and more truly of God. So it strips away all of our false masks, all of the things that sin breaks us. Sin is not who we are. My deepest identity is not a sinner. My deepest identity is beloved daughter, beloved son. That's the truth. So all of that is burned away. My love is set in order. Song of Songs, Chapter 2, verse 4, the Latin says, Ordinavi and may carry tatum.

Ordinavi and may carry tatum, you set love and order in me. That is the healing journey. That's the wine cellar. So a true, like I said, a true healing journey is not going to make me more self-centered and self-absorrent. If that's happening to me, I'm doing it wrong. A true healing journey is going to make me more like Jesus. Yeah, and ask the people around you if you're not sure.

Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So it's not going to be me chasing after modalities or chasing after this therapist or this healing conference or this. And in a sense, like, we understand that. But ultimately, Christ is the only way. Christ is the only way. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. Everything else is a way. Right. And depending on how much it correlates to Christ,

it might be a way away from him. But if it's in coordinate, it has areas of truth in it, it's an echo of Christ, but Christ is the only way. So a modality helps us encounter, like, understand who we are and the truth of ourselves, but Christ is the one who heals us. So Dr. Bob Lofton say that therapy helps us understand, but the Holy Spirit leads us to break through. So it's the love of the God, the Holy Spirit, the love between the Father and the Son that brings us. And that's healing.

And that's our whole life. Like that's purgatory. That's the healing, continued healing of the human person, so I'm purged from my disorder, my sin, self-centeredness, like all the things in my life. So then I can finally become, as Pope Benedict says, totally myself and totally of God. And that just makes me want to cry.

yeah because isn't that what we want we don't want we that's what we want we want to be totally ourselves and totally of god so we don't belong to an eastern mysticism that says you're you know absorbed into the universe or you become you're totally yourself you're totally you're totally mad like just the unique beautiful creation that you are you will be you forever and you'll be the most truest you in god and totally of god forever like everything about you your intellect your will everything's going to be ordered toward God, you're going to love fully, you're going to receive, it'll be fully humble, fully kind,

fully merciful, fully true. I just, that's the good news. And that's Christ, Pescal Mystery. That's why everything in our life must be brought into union with Christ. We cannot live fragmented lives. Amen. And what a super, what's the word? It's such a limited view of healing,

isn't it, to think anything less than that? Yes. Like imagine this hasn't, this didn't take place in the Gospels, but you could imagine it happening where somebody commits suicide because they were deeply depressed. Jesus comes along, rises from the dead and goes on his way. And the suicide's like, well, thanks a lot. Now I'm stuck with myself again.

You know, it's like, no, I love how you put that, the encounter of God's love and truth. Yeah. And it heals our families. Like, look, so I've known you for a long time. And like, just look at your beautiful, your journey of healing, which a lot of people, I just, you're just so more you. I just said that to you earlier. You're more to yourself now than when I met you, like 15 years ago.

And just like the truth of who you are. And look how just your personal healing has affected Cameron and your family and your podcast. Like the reverberations, you know, there's that saying that there's no such thing as a private sin. There's no such thing as a private grace either. So when you and I make a healing journey, the beauty of that and the power of Christ's love will overflow like a reservoir onto everybody around us. And then it's not suffering that it's not transformed as transatlorm. It's the beauty and goodness and love is transmitted. That's what's transmitted is Christ's love.

Not my suffering I don't want to deal with, right? So, I mean, just look at your life. Like, look at you. Look at you. It's just gorgeous. I love it just, I love to marvel at your life. It's been so beautiful. It's a wonderful life.

It is. I'm so excited about it. It is. And it's a testament to your encounter with Jesus. Like John Adder said about you that union with Christ over time has made you calmer. It's made you more true of who you are. you more true of who you are. It settled you more in your deepest identity. And that's...

Yeah, it's true, right? Because I wanted to push, when he said that, I was like, all right, but what was interesting is I was with him enough. Yes. He would keep saying things like that. And I, my response was the same every time. I was like, okay, just calm down, right? Don't be doing that. Yeah. But then it was like, that's interesting. Why do you do that? Damn it. Sorry. Sorry. Yeah, but that's interesting, right? Yes. That, that's interesting, right? Yes. When someone affirms you and looks you in the eye and everything in you is like, get away. from me, I'm a sinful man. You're like, that's interesting.

Why do you keep doing that? Like continually. Yeah. Yeah, I had this beautiful moment with the Holy Spirit where the father was saying delightful things to me and it came out of nowhere.

It hit me like a bat. Was not expecting it. Wasn't like warming myself up for it. Wasn't like, oh, what if the Lord said this? Now let me imagine this. No, it just came out of nowhere. And I hated it so much. I didn't want it.

I mean, I wanted it deeply. But there was a part of me that just recoiled. Yes. And, you know, like, give me 10 minutes. I will prove you wrong. This is, and that was the same thing. It was like, that's interesting.

Why do you do that? And there was like, but then there was a sort of like a giving over to it. Yeah. And that was gorgeous. That healing, healing is beautiful and freedom is safe, safety. And so it's interesting because we make fun of the whole safe space thing. Yeah. And like, fair enough, there's things to be made fun of.

But like, when you're afraid, And when you live in chaotic times, a safe space is precisely, whether you perceive it to be the case falsely or you are, in fact, in such a case, a safe space is precisely what you are in need of. That's a really good point. But it's Jesus. It is. Yeah.

The person who you're at home with, right? It's home. Yeah, it's not, yeah. Jeremiah too. My people have, I love this line. It's funny to me. You know what I'm going to say? He says, my people have committed two evils.

You've forsaken me, the font of living water, and then you've built for yourself cisterns. Broken cisterns that don't hold any water. Do you find that funny? I find that funny because he's like, okay, so you left me. So fair enough, right? Because now you're dying of thirst. And so, all right, I'm going to build some cisterns,

but they don't even work, which I love, right? Because it's like you've left me, and then you've tried to make life work on your own. and it's not working. So come to me, you who are weary and burdened. Yes. Yes. It's all true.

It's all true. It's all true. And that's the good news. How could that not be good? Why would you not want that to be true? I know. I know we're interesting, aren't we? Because we do.

It's like at the same time, it's like me, also me. It's like you with John Elder, just like me, I love this and I want it at the same time. I don't know. It's like, you know, like this. And I think that's where the Lord comes and says, where are you? And you had that micro movement of your heart

of like, why am I doing this? Like, yeah, you could just see the push pull. Like, and I, we so easily talk about intimacy at home and even when we're talking about right now and I think all of us want that deeply and all of us are terrified of it. Or honestly, at the same time, because of that, like, that means I'm really going to be seen

and that means I'm really going to be loved and that means I'm really, all will be known and, you know, like St. Paul says, I will see as I am seen and known and being known as I'm known and love as I am loved. And there's something that we so deeply ache for it because we're made for it at the same time. We are so afraid of it because we're afraid of rejection

or abandonment or annihilation, whatever that might be, the things that we might find that disqualifies us from that. But the Lord keeps telling us, you know, like he says in John 6, I will not reject anyone who comes to me. And that to me is so, for all of us who have wounds of rejection, which we all do. It's like, oh, thank you so. I will not reject anyone who comes to me.

Yeah. Also thinking of our Lord's words, like, fear not, little flock. It's your father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. Yes. He wants to. He's not just tolerating us. Yeah. But that he wants to. Like it's his, like you want to give gifts to your kids. It's like, oh my gosh. That's the perfect analogy, right? Like it continues to be like if your child thought you hated them and they were wrong, hopefully. Like your heart would break. Yeah. Yeah. Or yeah. I love children. so much because there's no defenses. That's why the abuse of children in whatever form is so desperately heartbreaking. Oh, it breaks my heart so much.

Like a child being shouted at out of a parent's pain, you know. And it's like, what's so beautiful about children is they haven't lived long enough to develop those defenses. Like when my wife and I get a little frustrated with each other and we get like a little nitpicky, like it's like, quiching, quichia, we'll take that, you know, it's like a battle of. but children don't have that so they'll just they'll just they have to receive whatever lash verbal lashing you may choose to give them oh that's brutal that's so brutal so brutal

so don't do that well but even and i think even what you're saying right there is that which is the story of a lot of our listeners right now what you just said has been the story of many of our listeners and what happens when that happens is little children don't have a frame of reference are like, dad, well, dad really is having a bad day. Then it becomes there's something wrong with me and I'm unlovable or I can do something to make this stop or I'm worthless. And it's children are naturally like in a sense like self-centered. They don't have the intellectual capability to understand what's happening objectively and here's dad's story of origin. But so and then so then what happens then all the beliefs like that's exactly the microcosm of. So then how does that affect later on

when your boss is mad at you or when you feel angry or I remember when I was younger we just had some deep problems in our family and I remember making an intervow that I will never be angry because if anger is that whatever was happening I don't want everything to do with it and you can hear you can hear the pain of my little girl heart of not wanting to perpetuate or experience that but when we make inner vows out of hatred and fear then what happened to me is like my anger didn't go away it just was turned inward and my temperament everything was turned inward so then many years later, I'll be diagnosed with clinical depression and addiction, things like that. So to say that our story of origin has nothing to do with our current life is entirely untrue.

And so Jesus is showing us where, you know, where is he, what is he wanting to reveal? What is the truth of what I believe, honestly? And my emotions will often reveal what I want to believe, whether I, or what I do believe, whether I want to admit that or not. It's like many times our emotions. And so it's like right there of that's ground zero of what's happening in that little girl or that little boy's heart. and then how it's magnified out and those memories come to the surface we're like okay

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Download Truthly on the app store. How do you, I mean, because this is an ongoing journey, eh? It is, yeah. Holiness is an ongoing journey. Which just, in a way, you see why people don't want to. take it because it's long and can be brutal but it turns out that the opposite is much worse right um what do you notice in yourself and to help the rest of us when you're like oh hmm that needs some that needs to be brought into union with the good lord yeah i well i think something that i love what

john on the cross talks about here is that we talk about the healing journey but it's really the journey of love. And love, I hope love the school of love. We're in the school of love our whole life here and the rest of eternity we will be. So I think sometimes we look at healing, like, oh, that's a long journey. But really, it's just a school of love. It's the fullness of love. So God is helping heal the places we don't love the way Jesus loves and he's bringing us into love. So I walk through this on a daily basis in my life. So, you know, I also live in community and I minister to a lot of people and I have my own story. And so when I find that something happens, then it could be the smallest thing that it just, you've ever had something happen in the morning, say you and

Cameron have a disagreement, and she used that tone of voice. And at five o'clock in the evening, you're still thinking about it. It's like, we try to tell ourselves. Or it cascades and maybe you've forgotten it, but other things are bugging you more now because you haven't dealt with it. Exactly. So those are the things in daily life. It doesn't have to be some catastrophic thing that happens. It's like oftentimes touched by the smallest things. And I'll often jokingly say, we'll just say, oh, I'm just tired, you know, which could be true, but some of us have been tired for 20 years. So at some point, you can't just be tired. It's actually because it's hurting our heart. So that too happens to me. So I really do. Like, what am I feeling? What am I believing?

And where is Jesus? Right. So I'll be in the kitchen making eggs and I can find myself getting afraid. So I can feel the fear. So I allow myself like, Lord, I'm feeling I'm really afraid right now. I'm feeling like I'm going to be rejected or I'm going to be left out. And I'm going to be very honest with the Lord. Like, I'm going to let myself feel it. Because what I learn is the feelings won't kill me. Like I can let them. I'm with Jesus. So I'm like, Lord, what am I feeling? So I'm I can feel my stomach tighten up. I can feel, I could feel like how young do I feel right now? I might feel like, oh, I feel little.

What am I believing? I'm believing that I don't have a voice here, that it doesn't matter that I'm not taking, I'm just giving an example. I'm not being taken, but these are real things. I'm not taken seriously, whatever that is. And Jesus, what, where are you right now? What do you say?

What's true? Like, Lord, what truth do you want to reveal? And so I can hear, sometimes it doesn't happen instantaneously, but sometimes even just evoking the name of Jesus, I'll just feel like a peace that will come over me like, okay, I'm not alone. This reminds me of something that happened when I'm smaller. This is a familiar pattern for me of like, oh, I'm all alone. Nobody cares about me, which you can hear from my story of origin, right?

Being in the womb. You can hear it. See, it makes sense. Lord, what is true? So Jesus, what do you say? Lord, Jesus, you say that you're going to be with me always. You'll never leave me, I'll ever forsake me. You're here.

So just be, Lord, be with me here and just show me anything I need to know. And if there's anything I need to know about that person, Lord, show me that. do you see it? It's like bringing, and sometimes I can do it real time, but sometimes it's like later at night if something's really, or if it's chronic for me, I'm like, all right, Lord, what is this? It's a small thing. But over time, then what's, for me, what's happening is I'm not reacting and then I'm not giving you back whatever you gave me. I'm not going to, like, respond with like a curt time. Over time, God willing, I'll be able to respond in love. I'd be like, I don't know what happened there. I don't know why that person talked to me the way they

did. I don't know what's going on, or, but Lord, I just pray you bless them. And, Lord, you would tend to me. Lord, tend to me, any place that that is having an effect in me, that's more than what would, what should be there. So that's not, that's just very honest and that's my life. Like that's, so that I've noticed just over time, I, you know, my, my heart has been brought into deeper union with Christ. I think I'm much more expansive, a greater capacity to receive and to give love and just to

be honest and to give grace to people and like, and myself too. It's like, it's not being permissive, but it is being patient and being patient and being. open and kind and loving and true. And that's the kind of person I want to be. I want to continue to grow in that way. Peter Craved. Because I had to tell you this story. So the first time I had him on the show.

I was really nervous because he's like an old man. And I wasn't sure if we'd get along. Sure. But he was perfectly lovely and pleasant. And then my wife and I brought him back to the airport. It'll look like we may be late. And the traffic was terrible. And at no point did he seem to care.

Wow. Yeah. And the more I got to know him, the more I realized that's just how he is. He's just a very, it seems like a very humble person. He does. Yeah. Yeah. He's so delightful.

Like just his mirth and his also wisdom and he's very pithy and also incredibly intelligent. I mean, it just like, he's delightful just to watch, like, to watching him speak in public. He's just like, whoa. And reading his books are great. You can hear his voice, like, as you read his words. Yeah. I was asking him on a recent episode like about Descartes and he's like, I'm kind of bored. I don't want to talk about that.

I'm like, all right, if you could, what's the biggest animal you think you could kill? And he went, and he looked at me and went, you. And then we started talking about animals. Anyway, I love it. I love him too. He's terrific. God bless him. All right.

So we have questions that have come in from our local supporters, which I have not yet read. Okay. This is a live unveiling. Yes. Travis says, will you be discussing? So the answer is yes. Union with Christ and in the sense of theosis. I would love to know more about the Catholic view

in comparison of the Orthodox and Protestant view. So this idea of theosis or divinization in regard to union with God. Any thoughts? Well, I mean, John of the Cross does speak about that of that's the union with Christ is becoming like we don't become God himself, but we become like God.

I mean, that's like the early church fathers. And I'm not a church historian, so I'm sure you could have theologians to talk about better than that. But from my own study and my own understanding, the divinization is becoming, like Pope Benedict says totally ourselves and totally of God, to become like him,

like the maideness image and likeness, and that likeness is restored. So that's what I would say. I couldn't tell you what the Eastern. I don't, I'm not that well-versed in different schools. We have the same view. We use different language. There's a great book by an Australian priest

named Ken Barker. Father can barker. You'd say barker. Okay. And I would highly recommend people get it. But in it, he uses that log analogy, which we were just mentioning, this idea, you throw a log on the fire and the different stages that take place. The first thing that happens is that the insects living within the logs scatter,

then it might begin to smoke and dry out, et cetera, until it becomes fire. And so there's a time in which where you cannot tell the difference will make a decision. distinction between the log and the fire, but the distinction remains. Sure. Good. What he said, yeah. Yeah. Patty says, what might authentic intimacy with Christ look like for someone who oscillates

between feeling nothing in prayer and experiencing overwhelming consolation, often accompanied by extreme physical sensations like electric tingling tears, adrenaline, euphoria. I don't always trust the latter, and I despair the former. it often feels like swinging between shale and table context i'm a recovering addict with c PTSD and a history of false intimacy avoidant intellectualization grandiose delusional thinking trying to discern what's real in my prayer life and what's projection emotional bleed god bless you what a beautiful question yeah gosh yeah jimia just as i hear that i'm like oh my heart is brought to the tender place

and just the wild swing between feeling nothing and then feeling, it sounds like almost like euphoria, you know, like the, just one back and forth. I would highly recommend that she would find a good spiritual director. Like, I don't know if she has one, but a lot of that's very difficult for us to discern on our own, and it's hard for us to direct ourselves.

And so I think a spiritual director that's wise in the ways of the spiritual life. I think it's a fella, just so you know. Okay. Patty, like, I think. Not Patty, Patty. Oh, Patty. Pad E. Like Padrig.

Oh, I think. Okay. Okay, sorry. Finding a good spiritual director, I think it's going to be helpful. Somebody that knows you and knows your story like we talked about. And also can help you understand what's happening of, I guess the bottom line. I mean, there's many ways we could go into that. But the bottom line is the presence of God is not indicated whether we feel it or not.

That God is always present. And we talk about, you know, Ignatius talks about spiritual consolation, desolation. And those times where we feel union with God. God and things like that. But God is always present. And so my prayer life is not predicated on whether I feel it or not, but what's consistently true, what is steadfastly true. And so bringing everything into union with him. So I think trusting the presence of God in versus more than what I'm physically feeling or emotionally feeling, even though it can be something that God is trying to bring about. But I think especially with a history like that, I just want to offer particular care to those

tendencies of the trauma responses and things like that so i think finding a good spiritual director maybe a good therapist would be helpful too to kind of i just look at crisis and swing wildly from one side to the other so it's like what the middle way is always virtue right so i'm just curious of like oh i wonder what's happening there so without knowing all the details that's that's what i would say okay b gosham says what is the first step you recommend for someone to examine and identify their wounds to take to the Lord for healing? Is there a daily prayer you embrace to surrender to the Lord's ministrations?

One of the best ways that we can uncover wherever the Holy Spirit wants to go is, you know, what are our pressing symptoms today? Or are you aware of things in your past? But what are things today that pull you out of union with Christ? Or what are the pressing beliefs I have that are problematic or distressing to me? Do I find myself engaged in repetitive behavior?

I really believe the Holy Spirit will show us what we need to know when we need to know. None of us has to dig. All of us can ask Holy Spirit today. Holy Spirit, show me where you want to go. And that beautiful. Put it on him. You've got enough going on. Exactly.

Yeah, it's really true because our symptoms are already present to us. So I think uncovering that is really helpful. Like Holy Spirit, and sometimes the Holy Spirit tells us things we don't want to hear. But we also need help. So we need people on the journey with us. So it is developing a deep life of prayer, but it's also a good spiritual structure. a good spiritual doctor, good therapist, regular confession, like just the sacraments regularly receiving Jesus and the Holy Eucharist, I would highly also recommend Dr. Bob's book be healed.

That is the number one book I recommend across the nation. It's so good about what is, you know, what does it mean to live in Christ? What does wholeness in Christ look like? What is our development? And then what is brokenness? And then how do we come to healing? What is redemptive suffering? It's all of that.

So that is such a, if you're starting out at the very beginning, it's even if you're advanced, it's excellent, but especially at the very beginning of just, going over what Bob, Bob's book or Bob's podcast, Restore the Glory, is also very helpful. But I'm always about very simple. Like, do the one thing and do it well. Do it simply. Like, Lord, you know, for your, his prayer today or the person's prayer today, it was like, Lord, what, where do you want to go today? Lord, what's happening?

I just, Jesus, I just want to be, I want to be at home with you. I want to love you. Lord, please just reveal to me whatever you want to know. And that prayer with a consistent life of prayer of virtue, like we're growing, right? In the spiritual life, it will only, you know, just reveal goodness. and beauty so thank you well speaking of books alissa says your book loved as i am was a lifeboat for me when life got dark thank you for writing it what is a piece of advice you would give to a young woman who is healing from a series of relationships that made her feel unwanted and unloved how does she

find healing and hope on the other side of heartbreak oh god bless her i'm sorry that that happened because relationships in their fullness are supposed to reveal who we truly are in our goodness. And that's terribly painful when that doesn't happen. And we often find that we have repetitive patterns and relationships. So if we look through our history of relationships, we'll find that many times there's patterns. So it sounds like she has a pattern of relationships where men or people in her life were revealing something to her that wasn't true.

And probably reinforcing beliefs and probably, my guess, would be probably something about childhood, too. There's probably like a reinforcement of a whole. We don't randomly enter into relationships either. It's like, oh my gosh, it's so many times very unconscious and subconscious, but why we attract who we attract and why we relate, how it's amazing. So there's all kinds of things happening. But I think that making a journey of healing of, okay, well, what is that?

What am I believing about myself? And what am I believing? What am I feeling? Like, Jesus, where are you? And immersing ourselves in scripture in the truth, because scripture is not just nice things. Scripture is a living word of God. And it has the power to dispel the enemy.

It has the power to heal. It has a power to correct. So I think living a deep life of scripture and a life of prayer and making a journey of healing, whether that is like we said, spiritual direction, a good therapist, regular confessions. And then with help like the tools that Bob gives of,

you know, what is this pattern in my life? You know, what's the whole strategy of the pattern? So here's the pattern of me attracting people or engaging in relationships that are destructive. Well, what am I believing? And it's amazing when we kind of sit down with that over time and ask the Holy Spirit to show us. But the Holy Spirit will show us. It's really powerful.

But it's turning back. Some often, you know what, the saints say this, but so often we've talked about this, Matt, that you and I turn to things lesser than God to fill us. We try to get all our needs met by people or try to get the identity validation. And people can reflect God's truth to us, but nobody can be God for us. And so often we just want that. We just want someone or something, just be God for me. you might everything satisfy every need it's just the right job it's the right person it's the right ministry it's none of that it's only it's only christ himself and allowing him in the heartache

and the pain and in the beauty and the joy allowing him to root us more deeply in his love like st paul says and your book loved as i am where can people get that or what is why should they get it yeah loved as i am i wrote in 2014 and it's really just a small um i call like an appetizer to the main entree of heaven but it's um theology of the body with my own personal story and inner healing prayer. And it has just a reflection questions at the end of every chapter. But it's kind of understanding who we are. Like everything we talked about dignity, identity, trauma. How do we heal? And my heart for people when they read that book is that they close the book and they say, okay, I'm ready. It's like, it's really like the small scoop of

ice cream that you get. Can I taste that? And it's like, here you go. You want to see. And that's for me. It's small on purpose. It's easy to read. Yes. And it's like, yeah. It's like I just want my heart is when people close that book they're like okay i want to i want to get serious i want to tell my story or i want to be honest about that or i want to grow here and so yeah you can find that on amazon or ovimaria press yeah aden asks what would your advice be for someone who sincerely desires sustainable intimacy with jesus but continues to struggle with habitual sin i keep finding that i can get a sort of spiritual high every so often and feel such tremendous grace and peace but i seem to inevitably fall back to old habits. And that's, I mean, everyone's story, isn't it? You're not alone. Yes. Oh, my gosh,

definitely. I think sitting with that story, what is the story? Whatever the habitual sin is, it's not random and it's not, I need to just try harder. So let's all be honest. If we could have done it by now, we would have. Let's all be honest. Like, if I could have done it by myself to get rid of that sin or whatever, I would have done it by now because we've all tried. We've all done the things. So clearly, it's a stronghold. You know, it's like something beyond ourselves where the enemy now has gained a stronghold and now we're kind of in a sense like feeling powerless or feeling overwhelmed what is that story what what are the micro movements so what is the sin okay so even like sitting what is the sin and then what what are the

movements of the heart what's going on there what is it what's happening what happens to me right before i gauge in the sin where what what's going on what what are the strongholds there are there areas of you know unconfessed sin in my life like what's and i think allowing ourselves to feel like what is that reminding me? What is the echo of it? And it's very, it's multi-dimensional because, you know, we're not just one, it's anything spiritual is going to affect us emotionally and emotionally is going affect us physically. And it's a whole kind of system of things that are happening. And so, like we said, the non-romantic thing of going to the root over time with the Lord is what heals us. So what is the root of that? What happened? Yeah, what happened the very first time I ever committed

that sin? Where was I? There's always an origin. Even the sin, like, when was the first time you ever lied? Or when it was the first time you ever hid things or when the first time you found pornography or the first time. And many times those things are so abhorrent to us. We do this to it. But it's like, Jesus, can you be with me and show me

the very first time I lied to my parents? Like, what was happening? Where were you? What was I afraid of? What was going to happen? Oh my gosh, Matt, it is amazing what the Holy Spirit will show us. Yeah, that's beautiful.

I like to remind people and remind myself that we are a, delight to Jesus. Yes. And that even our sins, when we repent of them, are causes of delight to Jesus because surely it's a delightful thing for the Savior to save. Now, sin calcifies us and is terribly unhelpful and awful. Yeah. But just to realize that, I mean, you've heard it before and because we've heard it before, it doesn't hit the same way it did perhaps, but he doesn't grow tired of forgiving us. We grow tired because we're prideful and we wish that we were further along the path of holiness. Oh, isn't that true? I would love to be. Why? So I could celebrate

myself to myself instead of receiving his affection. I could give myself. I could do it myself. Yeah, I wouldn't need a savior. Right. Yeah. I love Father Jacques-Philippe. He says that God saves the person that we are right now, not the person we wish we were. Preach. And I'm like, oh, I love Father Jacques-Félique. I was like. The French, I'm telling you. They're the best and the worst of the Catholic Church. Like, they have, there is a charism. I'm going to go on record and say this. I'm not a prophet or the son of one,

but they have a charism for proclaiming the mercy of God. That's a good word. Yeah, they really do. The French, I don't know. No, that's exactly right. God doesn't love the you that you wish you were but aren't because the you that you wish you were but aren't doesn't exist. Yeah.

He loves the person that we are. That book. And that person that we are right now is lovable. Don't we all have the idea of like, like for our friend there, I'll be lovable when that sin is gone. Or I'll be lovable when I don't lose it on my spouse. Or I'll be lovable when I can finally get to a life of prayer. It's like, no, no, no.

What makes us lovable is the love of God, not my behavior. What makes me lovable is because I'm made the image and likeness of God who is love. I'm already lovable. So from that place of love and communion, then we can talk about the other things. Otherwise, there's just me trying to, you know, like John Paul II talks about how the original sin introduced a mass. slave kind of paradigm like we talked about where the average is self-serving master like the French bishop was talking about. So, so but if I understand like, no, Lord, I'm, I am, I am

lovable here as I am. And if that's true, which is theologically, we know it's theoretically true. Sometimes we have to claim that theological truth, even if I don't feel it, well, then anything can be brought into communion. Because that means the covenant is not going to be broken. Like, it's true. So all right, Lord, well, we can talk about the sin. What's happening with the sin? What's, you're saying, yeah. beautiful apparently i called you saint me i said questions for saint miriam so someone wants to know if you're a saint yet oh no i'm not i hope to be one day but not kbw says someone who is working on apologizing better this might be my wife and also being being more forgiving uh how can

i tell she'd find that funny just so everyone who's offended for my wife she would find that funny um As someone who is working on apologizing better and also being more forgiving, how can I tell if I've forgiven someone, is it just the concrete act of saying, I forgive you, or is it a feeling? What if you can't physically talk to the person? I find this lack of assurance also translates to lack of confidence in God's forgiveness of me for my sins. Oh, that's a great, we could do a whole episode on forgiveness. Like that's so wonderful.

Well, I mean, luckily, forgiveness is an act of the world. will, right? So it is me choosing, because Jesus says you have to forgive your brother from the heart, right? So it's an act of the will, which I can choose to take the forgiveness that Jesus gives me and apply it to somebody else. And so I can choose that at any time. So that means even there's areas of my life where I don't want to do that yet, where there's a pain. I'm like, Lord, please help me, please help me one day to forgive. Like just, Lord, I want to live like you do, because forgiveness makes us like Christ. But right now my feelings are like, I don't want to do that. So it's a beautiful thing that we don't live in domination of our feelings because, but our feelings are telling us

something. Okay. So, so what, what is the outflow of kind of like, how do I know when I've forgiven somebody? And Father John Burns and I've given a talk on this seek a couple times, and he's talked on this and so of I in different formats. And so we have a lot more steps there and Father John's given extensive talks and so have I like a different, like the intricate steps of forgiveness. But overall, am I wanting their will? Like, am I willing good for them? So if I moved from willing, ill from them and hating them, have I moved at least with my will saying, Lord, I want, I want good for them,

or I at least don't want them to burn in hell, like I want good for them. Where I have, I'm choosing to give that situation to Christ, where I'm not seeking revenge myself, where I have, Lord, I'm hurting here, but I'm gonna put down the pitchfork or whatever. Like all of us in areas of unforgiveness, we're like coming at the person trying to like make, because forgiveness is about injustice.

So when somebody has hurt us, there's an injustice that's happened. And St. Thomas Aquinas talks about how I want to grab justice for myself, or I want to settle justice. So forgive, that's why when Jesus talks about forgiveness, he's using debts, the term of debts. So when somebody hurts us, they've incurred a debt against us. So what do we do with the debt?

So do I try to make sure you pay it back, like the unforgiving servant, and am I grabbing you by the collar, choking you saying you pay back what you owe me? Am I seeking to be judge, jury, and victim all at once, right? So forgiveness is choosing to release my grasp upon you and commending you to God. And I'm asking the Lord to restore justice. And you know what? It might be that justice is restored by a civil authority or a canonical authority.

That's true too. But it's not me trying to play judge, jury, and victim all at the same time. And what happens over time is that as I take a full account of how you hurt me and I list out what happened. And I have to be very honest about that. and I take those individual things to the Lord, then forgiveness happens. Many times we're trying to forgive people generically. I'm like, I forgive Matt Frad, if you've hurt me.

And then you're like, oh, I saw Matt Frat at Thanksgiving and I hate his guts. But many times it's because we're trying to forgive you generically versus like, if you've hurt me, I forgive Matt Frad for whatever that is. And taking a full account, and I'm telling you, that will be the part many times we have the most amount of resistance because we're like, oh, no, no, no, no, no. That's why the cross is so convicting for us because that's a full. account, like that is our sin. The crucifixion is our sin. And then in that, choosing to surrender each one of those things to Jesus. And so over time, what happens is that my heart

becomes more like Christ. And you know what? I might see my Thanksgiving and get angry all over again. And you know what? That's okay because it's inviting me to another level of, well, what am I angry about? There's an injustice. So you see what I'm saying? So, but I think if we're still misposure and we're still trying to seek revenge, that's telling our hearts that we are being invited to make a forgiveness journey. there's a lot more I could say. Oh, and feel free to because it's an excellent question. I remember hearing, you know, people still say forgiveness isn't a feeling it's a choice. Like, that is a new idea. But it's like, well, if you're lucky, you've been hearing that true thing for many years,

but you're like, okay, but what does that mean? Because surely there's going to be some sort of phenomenal logical experience of the choice I've made. Or am I always supposed to feel angry, but say it's all right, I've made the choice to forgive them. think as we work, so as we work with the individual injuries and allow the emotion to come out and to be honest with what happened, then there's a natural release of the emotion. And I'm being honest with what happened. So if you took something from me, I need to say that. Whether I say it to the person is a different story, I don't always recommend that. But I'm going to write it out, or I'm going to go to therapy, or I'm going to go to confession and say, because we have to be

able to release what happened. Because as we do that, then the natural emotional, which is understandable and rightly so there is a proper amount of anger that happens from being wounded that's actually there's a virtue of being appropriately angry like that because because we've been wounded so to say oh it didn't matter it's not a big deal and we're stuffing it that's not being honest and so the anger is a secondary emotion the anger is telling me something about my heart where my heart has been hurt so when we attend to the wounds and the heart over time the anger over the injustice subsides because we see of the rectification of what's happening whether it happens on this side of heaven or not. I'm just going to say this. Many years ago, I was

listening to Dr. Jordan Peterson before he got really sick. He was giving a talk. And I think he was speaking at Oxford. And I've heard him say this since then, but there was the first time I heard him say this. And after he gave this two hour long kind of philosophical lecture, you know, he did a live Q&A and people like, oh, Dr. Peterson, you know, what have you learned in 20 years of preaching and all that kind of stuff? And he said this, Matt, he said, what I've learned is this, is that no one gets away with anything. No one gets away with anything. So he said, and he wasn't even talking about forgiveness, but he kind of launched in this thing on forgiveness. He said, if you're sitting here tonight and you've perpetrated a crime or you've done something that you

haven't made amends for, you're not getting away with it. He said, it's eating you alive. And he said, if you're sitting here tonight and you're unforgiving and you're bitter and angry, you're not getting away with that. It's eating you alive. No one gets away with anything. And to me, what that teaches us is that you and I, the people in our lives, Matt, that have hurt us, that even to this day, the person, one of the people in my life who has hurt me the most, who I've confronted twice about some of the deepest sorrows of my entire journey to this day has expressed zero sorrow. Yeah, are you able to share that publicly? You told me about a letter you wrote. I don't want to bring that up if that's not public, but I did. So it, yeah, it was. Is that who you're

referred to? It is. So the person that sexually abused me. And many years ago, and so this is, yeah, I've learned a lot about forgiveness by having to live it out, right? And many years, ago in my healing journey, I'd written this personal letter and just saying that I remembered what happened and here's what happened. This is my own story. So I'm just going to share my experience with you. I had an unspoken expectation that that person would read my letter, fall on his knees and say he was sorry. And that did not happen. The response to me was, you're crazy. None of that happened. And if you need psychological help, I can pay for it for you. Oh, my goodness. I'm so sorry.

So for me that was That is what we mean by gas sliding Exactly And I was I was just pierced to the core Like I just couldn't believe it And I But for me it was a crossroads in my life

Because I was like I don't want to go back to my addiction I was already sober at the time I don't want to do that anymore So then what do I do? So this conversation about forgiveness I mean I live it out in my life In so many different ways

And it's like So I realized that I had this unspoken expectation. And so, well, what do you do? Like, then what do you do from there? And so for me, I knew it was true. Like, whether that person ever admits at the side of heaven, we both know that's true. We know what happened. And so it abled me to not turn into myself and go back to my addiction and to numb the pain, but to face the pain. What does it feel like to stand in front of your abuser, so to speak, and then to be told it was you? And so I really had to like walk through that. But it really led me on the deeper path of healing. Like I can't, I just can't

harbor. I couldn't do the metaphorical grabbing that person by the collar of the throat, like choking them saying, you better pay back what you owe. And I had a vision of myself that day. The Lord showed me and I was horrified. I just, I just remember releasing the collar that person. I just backed away from this vision. I'm like, Lord, you have to show me what to do because I can't do this. And so several years later after a lot of healing, and this, like I said, I don't always recommend this. but for me, it was part of my own healing journey. I went to that person face to face. And spoke again what had happened

and that I told that person that I forgave them. And this time they didn't admit any guilt or didn't acknowledge it, but they just nodded. So now... How did... Now we both, you know, we both know. Now it's like... Yeah.

How did he allow you to even be alone with him to have that conversation? I would think that he'd be on guard against you after receiving that letter. Yeah, he was. And I just had asked for a meeting that was in a safe place. So I initiated it. And it was very brief and it was in public. And I said what I needed to say.

But I knew part of the healing journey was that I knew that whatever his response would be, that it had nothing to do about my identity or what happened, that I could just bless him. So nothing else was discussed. It was, I want to say. Yeah. And he just nodded and that was it. Yeah. God bless you.

Yeah. And I, you know, I really, yeah, it's been a long, there's so many layers to that story. I don't know. I mean, I know nothing. And I'm just, but God bless him for showing up. I know, right? And whether he, whatever he admits the side of heaven, Matt, he's not getting, it's like, I think for me a long time was like,

If I forgive you, you're getting away with it. That was my misunderstanding of forgiveness. And so sometimes we think forgiveness is condoning or excusing or just letting people off the hook. So there's part of our heart, and rightfully so. And rightfully so, so we take on unforgiveness when we don't understand. That's not what forgiveness is. Forgiveness is not letting them off the hook or saying it didn't matter

or condoning bad behavior or just sweeping it under the rug. That is not forgiveness. Like forgiveness is taking a full account and letting all things be seen by the Lord and being very honest about what happened and whether you ever confront that person is, you know, that's a totally different story but it's you and yourself of like, what happened?

And how has that affected us? Yeah. And yeah, so it's a very long and beautiful journey, but I can honestly sit here today and tell you that if I ever go to heaven. Of course you will. If I do, I want him there. Yeah, come on.

That's beautiful. Yeah. Because he's hurting too. So talk about suffering that is not transformed, is transmitted. There's got to be something in his own story. And it's like we said. So that means you and I, no one gets away with anything.

That means that you and I do not have to spend the rest of our lives trying to exact justice. We can walk through it with Christ and we can surrender it. And God will see to it. Everybody's going to know. Everybody that hurt us is going to know. We're going to know too. We're on everybody else's forgiveness list too. And we're going to know too.

And all it's all going to be seen in the light of God's love. But we don't have to spend. our whole life stuck, even at the person's deceased, we can still forgive them. It's such a, forgiveness is such a gift that doesn't minimize pain, but it actually honors the human person, and it makes us more like Christ. And forgiveness is redemptive suffering. Forgiveness is redemptive suffering. So every time you and I authentically forgive, like the catechism says that the human person doesn't have the ability to forget an offense or not to feel an offense. It literally says that. That's so helpful. But it says the heart that turns itself over to

the Holy Spirit turns injury into compassion and intercession for the person who hurt us. I'm like, this is our faith. Like this, that's everything we're talking about. Like to give our hearts to the Holy Spirit and to turn injury into intercession and compassion. And that's noble love. And other than, I mean, above everything else, that's how we want to live. And that's our faith. Like, that's the beauty of the Catholic faith.

Like, oh, I love our faith. It's so, Christ is so beautiful. I love meditating upon our Lord's crucifixion and death. and it's, as I've been meditating on it lately, just seeing the naked Christ pushing up on the nails to breathe, and that you would do something so excruciating and it would look so grotesque and even pathetic, if you know what I mean?

Not that it's a pathetic action, but to see someone who's suffering so much, to see it and with that breath, to forgive the fella next year, to forgive them, they don't know what they do. Oh my goodness. Who are you? You know, it's another thing I wrote in that book, Jesus Our Refuge.

I was thinking of these very interesting words of our Lord where he says, see to it, be careful that your heart not grow weary with carousing and drunkenness in the cares of life. And what I love about that is it's kind of like, what are you talking about? See to it that I don't grow weary because of, no, that's why I'm doing these things.

What are you talking about? Do you not understand drunkenness? It's terrific. You get to forget everything. You get party, sexual stuff. It's great. And I just love our Lord because the thing we're going to for the cure is making the disease worse.

And the cares of life, I think of like your 24-hour news cycle that you've decided needs to be injected into your head. It's like, just be careful that your heart and not grow weary with these things. Like, that's what I was doing because I'm tired. Isn't that interesting? That's fascinating. And he's going to come to me, which is lovely. Yeah.

It's really nice that he recognizes that we're tired and weary and can do something about it. Yeah. Forgiveness. Yeah. He's saying, come home, right? Come home. What does that mean? Jesus saying, like, when you're tired and weary, like, come home, like, come home to my heart.

Like, you belong home, you belong to my heart. You don't belong out there. You don't. Anthony Padua says there, I think he says there are four reasons. Christ showed his wounds to the disciples after the resurrection. And one of the reasons I forget which is that we would have a refuge to hide ourselves from the enemy. Amen. And he says like a dove hiding in the cleft of a rock from the hawk, we get to bury ourselves within Christ.

And that's the thing I want. I want to believe that more deeply. And I want that to be the only thing I say for the rest of my life, that Christ is trustworthy. And there is an enemy. It's just not him. so like the one you're afraid of is the only refuge that can save you and I don't know why you thought you were meant to be afraid of him but please hear me when I say that I'm going to say that to myself

please hear me when I say that he's safe the only structure that will stand when the rest falls you know good all right that's a good word my friend well thank you for coming and being on my show and talking to you're such a beautiful person I love you very much I'm glad you exist. And thank you for being such a blessing to all of our viewers today.

Oh, it's been a gift to be with you. Thank you so much.