Pints With Aquinas - Living with Chronic Pain w/ Cameron Fradd

Episode Date: December 3, 2022

Follow Cameron's podcast here: https://www.youtube.com/@cfradd Matt talks with his wife, Cameron Fradd, about what it's like living with chronic pain. Join our Locals community: https://mattfradd.locals.com/support HALLOW (try it for 3 months free by signing up here): https://hallow.com/partner-mattfradd/?%24web_only=true&_branch_match_id=1065291887271942633&utm_source=Youtube&utm_campaign=mattfradd&utm_medium=influencer&_branch_referrer=H4sIAAAAAAAAA8soKSkottLXz0jMyckv10ssKNDLyczL1k%2FVz00sKUkrSkxJAQASAEBXIwAAAA%3D%3D

Terrific. Your hair looks beautiful. Thank you. I appreciate it. How long does it take for hair? See, before I was married, let's before I ask you about hair, I just thought women's hair looked like that. They just woke up in the morning and it did look like this. So, I mean, in fairness, but it's because I paid someone last night to shampoo my hair and make it look like this. Woke up looking like this.

Yes, exactly. How long does it take to? Well, I went to a salon because of all my stuff. I don't mean how long did it take to do it. I mean, how long does a hair once you've done it like that last? I've never done it to myself, so I'm curious. I think most people would say a couple of days, but if you have, um, health stuff, you make it last a week. I try to make it last a week.

It looks good for like three or four days. It looks great. You look beautiful. Thank you. Washing hair. Is that what gets rid of it? Yeah. And then like you've got to blow dry it.

So the woman, the hairdresser like blow dried my hair. My clients with Aquinas listeners have come to expect. Yeah. Well, and I am like the least like hair. I don't know how to do my hair. Like I've talked about this before and I'm like I just don't like I went to Chris Elena Everett's to like do a video recording thing and like Sarah Cotter like like had this bag of stuff and she's like I'm gonna go do my hair and makeup and she had this plan and Chris Elena told me to wear like

High definition makeup and I was like, I don't even know what that is. It's like, oh Cameron I was like, yeah, and she's like and you're gonna do your hair like that. I'm like, honestly, you could do my hair. I don't know how to do my hair. And she's like, Oh, yeah, no, you look great. But you want me to I was like, sure. She took like a minute and like pulled up teased hairspray and was like, ta da. And I was like, wow, that looks good. I just never really learned how to do hair. I didn't really care. I just never really learned how to do hair. I didn't really care honest question Like do you feel insecure about that or was there a time where you did like in a way that a man might not know How to do what's a stereotypical man thing? No, like I know I know well enough like I can blow-dry my hair with a round brush. That's fine But it's like curling or straightening Honestly, I couldn't be bothered like I'm like, okay I know that it's the same with makeup. Like I was just a tomboy, right? And so Meredith,

my sister would spend like an hour, sometimes an hour and a half before school and high school getting ready. That's why she got voted best looking. And it was prom queen, homecoming queen, all the things. And so she mastered that. And I couldn't do it as good as her. And I'm like, I really don't even care. So I get out of bed, throw clothes on. Sometimes I'd even be getting dressed as we're driving to school. I'm laughing because I'm thinking of my enemies online who call me a misogynist

for saying there are no funny standup comics. As soon as there's a woman on the show, he just talks about hair and makeup, because that's all they've got to offer. Yeah. And I'm not even good at that. And you know that about me. No, I should have asked another woman. I know. Sarah Swofford, she does great for hair and makeup. You should have at that. And you know that about me. No, I should have asked another woman. I know. Sarah Swofford.

She does great for hair and makeup. You should have asked her. She's so cool. Yeah. Listen, we want to talk about chronic pain. And the reason we wanted to do this episode is one, you're going through this. But two, I think we've been surprised how many people have responded saying I'm suffering the same kind of thing.

Yeah. Yeah. I've been surprised by that. I turn that off. Yeah, it's the kids. Yeah, yeah. I've been surprised by that. I... Do you want to turn that off? Yeah, it's the kids. Yeah. That didn't take long. Like a minute in and they're already calling.

But I think you should turn it off or she'll be distracted. Okay, how about I just flip it over? It'll still buzz, won't it? Could I give it to someone out there in case they call five times? Would someone take my phone? It's my children.

You don't have to answer it, but if they keep calling, feel free to answer. It's her children. Thank you. Our children. Sorry, our children. Yeah don't have to answer it, but if they keep calling feel free to answer. It's her children Yeah, our children. Sorry our children Yeah, I've been surprised by so my whole thing is Like being real and talking to women. I love I love Laura Horne has ruined that for you though. We should Know I love Laura she's amazing and awesome. So I am NOT a girly girl and I It's not that I don't like girly girl. And I, it's not that

I don't like girly girls, but I, I'm not your typical girl, but I love the heart of women. But I come at it from a very different point of view, I think, because I was a tomboy and because I'm not extremely, I don't know, emotional feelings type, like, like I don't have as many. How would you even say that? You know what I'm saying? We had a funny conversation the other day. You have these great one liners sometimes.

I'm just thinking, my gosh, like you're so funny, especially when you don't try to be. You say the most hilarious things. Here's what happened. I we were having a discussion and I said, you do a better job at not allowing my emotional chaos to suck you into it. Yeah. And I said, I don't do when you get emotional, I don't do so well.

And you said, well, in fairness to you, I've had way more practice. It's a great line. So true. Yeah. But I tend to, yeah, try to be more. I mean, are you afraid to say things like that? Because, I mean, you are a beautiful woman with beautiful emotions and a beautiful sensitive heart and maybe maybe you kind of grew up as a tomboy. And so the temptation was to press into that and to take a pride in not having emotions,

et cetera. Not that you're saying you don't have emotions. Yeah, no, because I do have emotions and I do have feelings. No, but I think there's I think there's something about, because when I started talking to women, it's like, oh gosh, like I used to hate women's session, right? And even on Net, Net was so great when we'd have to get together and share our hearts. I would always be like, I loved hearing their hearts. And I'm like, we're running out of time. I don't need to go. It's okay. I'll talk next time. And I didn't want to go there and that that's a weakness of mine

It's not a strength, but I was so blessed to have amazing beautiful sisters who loved me Yeah, I'm like, alright Cameron, let's go there So I'm trying to understand them what you mean because like you do have a beautiful heart and a sensitive heart and you're attuned to What women are going through so like you do have that beautiful, you know what I mean? So when you say you're not a girl, I'm just trying to figure out what that means. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know that I know, but I know that. I think you do a really good job. Like, I think everyone is saying, hey,

I just want to be real. Like, everybody says that. I know. And I hate that that's what I say. But listen, not everybody's like that in the same way that comedians probably want to present themselves as I'm really real.

But Norm MacDonald actually friggin was. And that's why people respected him. Yeah. And I think you're like that. You are very sincere and it's a beautiful thing. Thank you. Yeah, yeah.

Thank you. So maybe that's the difference. Maybe, I don't know. I don't know. But I've been very surprised sharing my health journey and sharing like all along. I feel like in the beginning when I talked about endometriosis,

I had so many girls in PCOS and all these female health issues that doctor, a lot of doctors don't take seriously, especially like when I was a teenager in the nineties, like late nineties, it was, oh yeah, bad periods here, get on the birth control pill. I mean, no, I'm pretty sure there's something, there's something going on, something more than this. Well, no, you also have acne. It'll help with that. And it's like, I don't want a band-aid, like figure out what's wrong with me. So I remember when I finally got diagnosed and they went in and did a laparoscopy and they're like, you have stage four endometriosis, like you, everything is a mess. And I'm like,

okay, I felt validation. I'm like, I have a high pain tolerance. And the fact that I'm curled up in a ball and exploding both ends. I mean, you remember seeing me, sorry, this is going to be vulgar and gross. I apologize. Um, but like I had validation and it was like, okay, no, you really are sick. And then it got so much better. And I was like, this is what people feel like when they're on their period. Like this is fine. This isn't a big deal. I'm not dying. And, and I think the chronic pain thing is the same, the chronic illness. Like I've been through a lot of different things with different stages of sickness and illnesses. And I feel like when I had like a diagnosis

or when it got more in the chronic illness realm, it was like, okay, all these things are connected. The fact that my blood pressure is really low, that I feel like I'm fainting, that my heart does weird things and races. I feel like I've run a marathon and all I did was stand at mass and I'm about to pass out, you know, or all my joints are popping. I feel like there was a validation in it and it's like, okay, like there is something wrong.

And I think that a lot of times when people suffer from chronic illness and sickness, whether it's EDS, fibromyalgia, like any of those things that you can't, it's not like when you have a broken bone and you have an X-ray, it's very clear. Yeah. These things sometimes feel like umbrella terms for things we don't quite understand. Yeah. Yeah. And it's so good to have validation. And I know I'm secure enough in myself knowing I'm not making this stuff up. Yeah, and it's so good to have validation.

And I know I'm secure enough in myself knowing I'm not making this stuff up. I remember when I was having horrible GI stuff when I was in Canada. I was 19 and I just started losing weight. I started vomiting all the time and I couldn't, I couldn't, I remember Des Sanich, a friend of ours, put his hands around my waist and said, Cameron, I'm really concerned for you, because he could legit put his hands around my waist. I'm 5'8". I normally weigh like 120, 130 pounds. I got down to 100 pounds and I was just so sick. Like every night I was just crazy sick and I kept going to the doctors and they like give me stuff, but it didn't make me better. And so I go back and I remember talking to this doctor and like,

I need you to figure out. And I was on a waiting list to have a test, socialized medicine, right? I would have died if I wasn't American and couldn't have come home. But I was on a waiting list and he said in a month I would get this upper GI x-ray and then they'd figure it out. I'm like, look at me. I won't be here in a month. I've lost 20 pounds in the last three weeks. I won't be here. And then he thought've lost 20 pounds in the last three weeks. I Like I won't be here and then he thought it was ulcers put me on medicine and I remember going in art And he's like, I think I figured out what it is. I'm like, oh, thank you. I'm so glad. What is it? He's like, I think you're bulimic. I'm like and I think you're a moron Like I'm in your office begging you to figure out what's wrong with me and your answer is I'm making myself vomit?

Like, no. Where I think a lot of people, I'm very hard-headed and strong-willed and I think it's like the choleric-ness in me and I'm not okay with that answer. I'm like, this is not in my head. Like, something is seriously wrong with me. It hurts to move. My insides feel like they're trying to come out of me and I can't keep any food down. I'm trying all these crazy diets and it just like I was just so angry. And I think a lot of people are like, well, if the doctor says I'm bulimic, maybe I am like, maybe it's all in my head. And it's like, no, you're not like it's not in your head. Like you do like, no, you're not. It's not in your head. You do have pain. And then flying home and getting tests done, within a week they figured out, okay, you

have GERD, you have IBS, you have Barrett's esophagus, you have esophagitis. There was diagnosis, but then my body was used to just evacuating food. So I had to literally wait for the meds to kick in and hold myself down as my body like was trying to just get rid of all the food. And it was, yeah, only God's grace that got me through it. So I don't know how people that suffer from chronic illness, I don't know how they function without God's grace. Like you need to rely on Him. Like He is my strength. Right. So what, how old were you? 23? Is this kind of around?

No, this was when I was like 1920. This is before we met. Yeah. My second year on that. Because I mean, you've had health issues ever since we met and they've, um, they've sort of revealed themselves differently. So I think one of the frustrations is, is this the same thing? Is it a multitude of things? Because when we met, what was the primary thing? It was the endometriosis. This is what we said, I guess. And GERD, we'd probably say that. Yeah. Yeah, I think we would say both.

And and we knew I had horrible GI stuff. But that's really important, too. I love what you said there, because I'm sure there's a lot of people who are dealing with chronic pain and they get given a pat answer just to kind of shut you up, maybe you're just a, we all, we all like simple narratives that make complex things easy to grasp, but I love that you trusted your body, you know? And you're like, no, no, no, no, that's not it. I'm not going to go on the pill.

That's a bandaid. I'm not bulimic. You're an idiot. Yeah, I did unfortunately go on the pill for many years, but eventually once I did my own research I'm like I'm right that this is a band-aid and just pause it because it's not like we were intimate at this time No, no, I wasn't actually active at all. No, this is pre-marriage pre Sex so just for those at home who are wondering can you be on the pill for medical reasons? Yeah, the answer is yes It's not immoral to be on the pill for medical reasons, and yet there's no really good reason to be on the pill. There's a lot of reasons to not

be on it. Yeah, no. There are so many other things that you can do. So low dose naltrexone is huge. I love that drug. When we were in Ireland, I don't know if you remember when I was... Actually, I had already had Liam and it was in between my pregnancy, I met Dr. Phil Boyle at a conference in Dublin, and he's the one that told me about low dose naltrexone. Wow, I didn't realize that. And it helps with pain, it helps with,

so basically when you're pregnant with endometriosis or a lot of these female health issues, it lays dormant when you're pregnant, and normally people feel great when they're pregnant. I was still really sick, so hindsight, I've had doctors that are like, you also have this, this, like all these other health issues, female related. But that low dose naltrexone makes your body think that you're pregnant, but it's safe to be on even when you're breastfeeding. So it makes the tissue, it makes your body think that you're not pregnant, but kind of the hormones.

And so everything lays dormant. So it basically, it buys you time because with endometriosis, the joke is get pregnant, stay pregnant, have a hysterectomy. Like it's not fun. It's not what you want, but I think the best thing is doing like a napro protocol and having laparoscopies like there are surgeries now that can help. So that was that was the main stuff in the beginning. OK, so that was what it was like in the beginning. If so, like if you like, what's it like now for those who are watching and they haven't heard your story, like, what do you deal with right now?

OK, so right now, I deal. I feel like maybe I should go over the ICU before we get here. Because I feel like I think that's the biggest turning point. I feel like that's kind of where I really went down. So, we had a miscarriage and I think I was 11, 12 weeks pregnant and lost the baby. Ended up just being so sick after like 10 days of trying to pass the baby, went and had a DNC at the hospital in the emergency room. And then after that, I just kept getting sicker.

And I remember it was Chiara's birthday party. Do you remember this? We had other friends that came over and some of them had had miscarriages. One of them even had a DNC. And I, I'm a, I don't like to admit when I'm not okay, especially if it's like a holiday or a kid's birthday. I'm like, I'm going to put on a strong face and smile and get through it. And one of my friends was like, Cameron, you're really sick. I'm like, no, no, no, I'm fine. I just haven't recovered.

And they're like, look over there. And I was like, over there. I'm like, can you move your neck? And I was like, shut up. Yeah, I can move my neck. Look at this. See? And they're like, no, no, no. Like you and they, they're like, we'll watch the kids. We'll finish the party, Matt, take her to the ER. And, um, and I was really sick and, um, I was vomiting and I didn't have a fever. So no one thought that I had an infection or no one thought that I was sick. But you had to pretty much carry me out of the parking lot, right? I was just so sick and I had a horrible migraine and things just got so much worse. And we had a doctor friend who was good enough to be like, get her to the doctor. Like, like this isn't okay. Like something's really wrong. And we didn't know what it was, but I was

in excruciating pain and just, I looked horrible, felt horrible. And that doctor took one look at me and was like, I don't know what's wrong with you, but I'm going to put you in the hospital. Like, you look worse now than when I met you. And then that night my blood pressure tanked and my white blood cells started dying off and I ended up in the ICU. And they thought I was bleeding internally. I think they kind of prepared you to say bye to me. Yeah. I don't know if that was ever said explicitly, but that was certainly how I felt.

Yeah. So I think I was in the ICU for a week, 10 days. You were in the ICU for almost two weeks and you were in the hospital for a month. Yeah. Okay. So it's blurry for me back then. I remember even there was a priest giving me last rites and trying to go to confed... I couldn't... My brain wasn't there. And I remember nurses being like, you shouldn't be conscious. And I'm like, whose blood is it? Is it a Jewish guy's blood? I was getting a blood transfusion. And I'm like, what are you talking about? I'm like, I know he's not Jehovah's Witness, but is he a Jewish guy? And they're like, we don't know. It's be positive, it's your blood type. But I was trying to like, I don't know, stay in control. So I have weird kind of memories, trying to go to confession, but I was like, I don't even think it was making sense, you know. And I remember Father Kevin like holding my hand and I didn't have the strength to like hold his

hand. But I wanted to hold his hand and I felt such comfort with him holding my hand. And I remember, like I think it was like at the worst point of it. You weren't there yet, but there was two priests and I didn't know this at the time. But I felt like I was kind of slipping away or I didn't think I was going to make it. I was aware a lot of craziness was going on around me and I heard singing and chanting in Latin and I thought, this is it, I'm going to heaven. And I thought, they do sing Latin in heaven.

Why are there only guys' voices? I feel like there should be female voices as well. And then I realized it was the priest and I wasn't actually dying, which was lovely news. Um, but when I came out of the ICU, I feel like I just was so sick. Like I, um, I think it was the perfect breeding ground hindsight. Um, I have like mold toxins and Lyme disease and a bunch of other stuff, but they just pump my body full of antibiotics and steroids and whatever to like

save my life, which was huge. But then I came out and I couldn't walk. That's right. I had neurological things. I was like shaking and all sorts of stuff. And my blood pressure, they just couldn't keep up. Like it just was crazy low. And like, you shouldn't be talking now. And I'm like, well, I am so. And I remember there was a neurologist that would sit in my room and it was very, like I could remember. And I had some bad doctors or some not bad doctors, but doctors that were kind of clueless. They were like, could you walk before you came into the hospital? Are you serious? Look at me. Do I look like someone that doesn't walk? Like, yes, I could walk and run and exercise and work out and do lots of things prior. But I remember the neurologist would sit in the room with me and eat his lunch like on his lunch break and just chat and

I'm like, do you think I'm crazy? Like at one point I was like this is weird Like I I could tell what was gonna happen. No one had any idea and we were in one of the top hospitals in Atlanta I see you and people had no idea. Yeah, and I was seeing every specialist for so many different things. And it was all weird stuff. It was like, okay, here's your female stuff. Here's your GI stuff. Here's your blood pressure. Here's your neurology. Like it was all different things and they couldn't put the pieces together. Hindsight. It's EDS, Ehlers-Danlos syndrome. So I, um, my joints pop out. So I was joked, I couldn't be a cheerleader cause my arms do that.

And my shoulders pop out, everything pop out. So I was joking, I couldn't be a cheerleader because my arms do that. And my shoulders pop out, everything pops out. I'm just really double jointed. And when you say pop out, like you mean it. I just want people to know at home. Like, I mean, you went and knelt for Eucharist and you dislocated your knee the other day. Yeah, yeah. I picked up that,

the coffee, what do you call that? French press. I picked it up at the store. And as I picked it up, my thumb dislocated and it was like, oh, and like it wasn't that heavy. But it makes me feel so much better for the time we were playing wrestling and I dislocated your shoulder because I felt like the worst human being alive. And I knew if the police came, I wouldn't be like, we were just wrestling. And I was it just pops out.

And that shoulder in particular, I have bones pop out. It just pops just pops out. And that shoulder in particular have bones pop out. It just pops in and out. But what does that mean? Like when sometimes you and I will go on a walk and you say my hip is popping out. Do you mean is that the same as dislocating? It dislocates. But like right now, my shoulder like will go in and out quite easily. So it's actually less painful. Like it's painful. It hurts.

But that's less painful than when it's somewhat stable and then pops out because it won't go back in So putting it back in like I learned at a very young age to put joints back in and this is because of the EDS As a kid, yeah. Yeah, I was never diagnosed with EDS but as soon as I saw a doctor and she just with EDS, but as soon as I saw a doctor and she just listened to all my stuff and she's like, are you hypermobile? And I was like, I don't know what that means. I'm double jointed. And she's like, okay. She's like, put your arm like this. And then she like pulled, I guess we have extra skin. Like we're, yeah, we have more EDS people. Yeah. It's a nice feature. I don't know what that's for, but I don't know. Maybe so the

joints could go in and out more easily. And then on bad days, like today's a bad day. And so I have special compression pants and they like kind of hold and snug at my hips and my knees to keep them in place. And then compression socks help with pots. So I have, it's- Yeah, what is that? So it's basically my blood, some people it's their blood pressure goes really high and mine goes really low. And so sometimes my heart, so my heart goes too fast.

So it's like I've ran a marathon, but my blood pressure goes too low and you get dizzy and lightheaded. And so compression socks really help because it makes your blood stay up here and helps your heart pump it more easily. I don't know, I don't know all the medical stuff. I'm still learning.

These are all new diagnosis within what, the last six months? And so realizing that, but hindsight, I can look back and be like, oh my goodness, like I remember playing soccer and dislocating my knee like all the time in the middle of a soccer game. What did your parents say? My dad helped me put it back in the first time. And my dad was like, all right, it's going to hurt. And it's what hurts really, really bad when it goes out. And you're like, our kids have done it before too. Um, yeah, yeah. Um, Liam did it when he was playing soccer.

Kiara's done it before. This all comes from you and I, and I'll put it back in. This is what you've given our kids? Yeah, I know, I'm sorry. That's all right. I'm sorry. So I know how to put it back in. Holy mackerel. So I remember the first time I knee dislocated. I don't know how it is. I'm 39, 16 years into marriage, have four children and didn't know.

I had no idea that our kids have dislocated anything. Yeah. How many times has this happened? Am I a bad father? No, no. No. You're just not around as much as me. I'm always there.

Yeah. You're doing stuff like this, talking to YouTube. Yeah, going to Rome, going to. I'm always there. Yeah, um, you're doing stuff like this talking to youtube Yeah, going to Rome going to Vegas for work. Yeah And i'm Cleaning up the the pieces at home. Yeah, but I also know what to do So like I remember the first time liam did it he was in excruciating pain. He's like my knee my knee I'm like listen, look at me. I love you. I know it hurts really, really bad. It's going to keep hurting. I can take you to the hospital.

It's going to hurt the entire time. And then they're going to put it back in. I know how to put it back in. If I do it now, I can stop it from hurting. You are such a boss. Do you trust me? You're awesome. Yes.

And I'm like, okay, look at me, look at me. One, two, and I pull the leg up and push the kneecap back in. You are amazing. And it's like, oh, and it still hurts, but it hurts less when it's back in its place. All right, hang on. Liam, Kiara, who else is dislocated there? I think Avila has. I think Peter's the only one that I don't think he's ever dislocated anything. Wow. You have anyone in here ever dislocate anything?

No, no. One. Maybe my shoulder. Yeah, I just think of Mel Gibson in Lethal Weapon when he's in the water in that. What is it called? Straight jacket or any dislocates your shoulder to get out? You could do that. So I totally could. I could totally get out of it.

I'd be screwed. I'm just laughing now. You know, I've also had someone I wrestled in high school. The girl like the best. So she ended up winning state, but I had beaten her multiple times. Yeah, for those at home, my wife was captain of the wrestling team in high school. Yes, yes, yes I was.

I know it's hard to believe now cause I don't have my nice big neck that was so muscular back then. No, you didn't have a neck. They were photos I looked at and you literally had no neck. I had to build up the muscles. It just went cheek, chins, shoulder, not chins, sorry. Cheek, chin, shoulders.

I may have had multiple chins, I don't know. I worked out a lot. I worked out a lot. But this girl that I went against often, she knew my right shoulder was my weak point. I dislocated at slide tackling. When you're wrestling, you're using every muscle in your body

and you're figuring out the other person as you're wrestling them. So you, especially with girls wrestling back, this is early 2000. So it was new. I lived in Texas. It was like Texas, Oklahoma. I think we're the only States doing girl wrestling. Um, but you learn your opponent really well and you learn their weak points. So I knew this girl's left knee was weak. So I always went for it. She would protect it the way you move. She went for my shoulder, but this one time, so it would get dislocated. My coach know how to help me put it back in.

So I'd have him hold it and I'd pull down and get it back in place. That's why when we wrestled and I dislocated your shoulder, you had me do that. Yeah. Yeah. I know what to do. I'm in a lot of pain I'm like oh okay this what I need to do hold my hand only people who know us know this about us like we we wrestle a lot like for fun not anymore we're not the last time we wrestled was at Bennigan's pub here in Steubenville yeah where you and I started like pushing each other and then we like kicked the table away and we were on the floor wrestling true story and the thing that sucks about wrestling your wife is if you win,

you suck. And if you lose, you suck. There's really no way to win that. But I enjoy it. It's fun. I'm the winner either way. Yeah, we're very physical. But remember, was it Joe Vogel? I don't know any other married couple that do this. Yeah, we have a friend who's like really big into the love languages.

And he's like, I don't know, like physical aggression was a love language, but it is with you two. It's great. I love it. But when you get better, I'm going to kick your ass. Yeah. Well, wait till I get better. And then I will like I just I'm sorry, I picked this up and I'm like, everything hurts. I love you. It's a playful kicking of asses. It's not a mean.

And as soon as I say stop, you always stop. So we have an aggressive relationship. Yeah. We got into, we did a live stream about a year ago and like you and I were like talking in a heated way and we saw people in the live chat and they're like, like I'm being triggered, like, like, but this reminds me of my parents when they fought. And I was like, genuinely shocked. Are you kidding? You think this is fighting? Do not come to our house when we're fighting.

And then someone even did a video like it was a response video to us. They had an argument. But in that video, they're like, notice how some Indian fella, notice how Matt, I'm not going to try to do his accent, is very logical and his wife is very emotional. And this is like really the opposite of our relationship. It is really, anyone that knows us knows that is not the case. But he took all female stereotypes and put it on me. He's the bastard.

And all masculine stereotypes. I wonder what he thinks of female standup comics. Yeah, I'm sure he doesn't find them funny. But you find me funny and Laura Horn. So I mean, there is that. That's true. I couldn't make it as a stand up comedian, but mainly because I just couldn't stand the whole time.

Well, let's not get into that again. All right. Okay. New topic. Okay. So. So, golly, I'm just like overwhelmed by how much you've been through. Yeah. So I'm going to day to day, I know you're sick and I know you're dealing with stuff, but it's like to hear it all at once is really

almost overwhelming. Like you've dealt with a lot. Yeah. And what's hard is a lot of people with chronic illness and I feel like chronic pain's part of it, like undiagnosed stuff. Like we always knew there was something wrong, right? And I did have some diagnosis,

but it was like, it's more than that. It's more than what you're telling me it is. And it's always hard when you get hospitalized. Like I think, so for me, so that ICU, so I came out of the ICU not being able to walk, using a walker. I was 35 at the time. I lost half the hair on my head.

It all came back white. So I have fun like white wispies. I can do like white wispy bangs. Um, so it was 35. Uh, I got white eyebrows, um, using a walker. We went to Rome, remember we had a vacation in Rome and I had to go earlier for school and I showed up with a cane. No, it wasn't a cane. It was, it was literally I think a walker, wasn't it? Like four, like wheels and tennis balls on the, Oh, it may have been. So I did have a walker.

Which is really difficult on a cobblestone. Yeah, it was, it was hard. No, I think I bought just a single cane. I think at that point I graduated, but I remember when I was using the, the walker with the tennis balls on it, I would get dizzy too. So I needed it for stability purposes as well. So I would get, I felt like I was drunk on a ship and everything around me was moving. Hindsight, it's pots. I just don't know that they had that diagnosis back then. So I would find a focal point. I'm like, don't fall over, don't fall over.

And like, if people didn't know me, I think they would have thought that I was drunk, but I wasn't drinking any alcohol. But I remember going to vestibular therapy at the hospital and physical therapy to relearn how to walk. And this old guy, golly, he must have been 80 or 90. And he passed me by. I'm trying to walk and I'm going so, and he's like, you'll get the hang of it, sweetie, as he passes me by. And I'm like, oh, Jesus. Humility, thank you you Jesus. I love you. Thank you for this cross of humility. Like you can't, you can't pretend that you have it together

when an old dude's passing you by in the walker and like, you'll get the hang of it eventually. And I think the thing with chronic sicknesses is you can have a good day and you look like a normal person. You look great. I've gotten comments before from people and I don't think they mean anything by it. I think they mean it as a compliment, but it's like the last how I'm doing.

And I'm like, you know what? It's been rough. Like I've just been having some rough days and you know what it's like. There's days that like, like I am so aware of every step I take and especially going up and down stairs. So like I get out of bed in the morning, I go and do my light therapy, I do an ultraviolet light and red light therapy and I get my compression socks on. That's like and I take my prayer time on. Jonathan Rumi, it's normally there leading me in the daily meditation, which I appreciate.

Thank you, Hallow. Look, I'm helping you. Hallow.com slash Matt Fratt. And so I do that. But then once I, I don't want to come back upstairs. Once I go down the stairs, I'm like, okay, that's it. Because if I go back upstairs, it wastes my energy. Like I only have so much and it's just exhausting.

So well-meaning people will be like, well, you look great. I'd take it. And it's like, yeah, I wish I looked as good as you when I'm sick. Something like that. Yeah. Yeah. I wish I looked as good as you when I was sick. Yeah. And they're trying to compliment you, but it feels like what they're kind of belittling you or downplaying how bad you're really doing. Yeah. And in fairness, I downplay how bad I'm doing to people that don't know me because when someone says, how you doing? They don't want to hear I'm in so much pain. It feels like I've been hit by a truck. My entire body is bruised and I have stabbing pains in certain areas. And if I move my arm the wrong way, or I chose to bring, I didn't bring my water bottle today because it was too heavy and it hurt.

And I felt like my wrist, elbow and shoulder were dislocating by me holding a water bottle. Like nobody wants to hear that. You know, I'm exhausted. I may have gotten two hours of sleep last night. I went downstairs in my reclining chair to put my legs up and my head. I texted you right before this to see if this interview was going to happen because you didn't sleep. You look great for someone who hasn't slept. I don't mean that to be belittling. because you didn't sleep. You look great for someone who hasn't slept. I don't mean that to be belittling. No, I think it's like,

I prayed a lot through the night and prayed for this, for this chat, and for all the people out there that suffer from chronic pain or undiagnosed stuff. I think another thing that's gonna be difficult for those struggling with things you're struggling with is it feels like there's a lot of skepticism regarding new diagnoses these days, not

just physical illness, but mental illness. So it feels like this is whole cottage industry. Maybe that's the wrong term, but kind of, um, discrediting things like ADHD and the need for medication, there's this whole thing. And I'm not kind of making a claim one way or the other. Certainly there are no doubt to be abuses when it comes to medicating children. And maybe that's bad. I don't know. But the point is like it's like this new thing.

Like, what is it? Is it really a thing? Is it just in your head? So that's got to be brutal. Yeah. And then I was diagnosed with ADD before it was cool. I was the only girl in my school with ADD. Does anyone have ADD anymore? Does everybody know? I think I think they got school with ADD. Does anyone have ADD anymore? Or does everybody have ADHD? I think they got away with ADD.

I think it's all- Do you have high definition? Is it all ADHD now? Okay. So there you go, I'm ADHD. I think we all knew that. I mean, just look at me for two seconds. But I think there's, so I think that there's freedom. So when you get a diagnosis, there's freedom in it,

but that needs to not be your identity. My identity is not, I am not a girl who suffers from EDS, endometriosis, POTS, GERD, IBS, you name it, all these things. I am God's precious, sweet little girl. That is my identity. And yes, I may be doing a task and get distracted and move on to something else. And it's like, oh, that's my ADD playing up. But that's not who I am. And I think when you dive into a diagnosis

and you're like, I am EDS, I am hypermobility. This is who I am. That's not who I am. Yes, I have this. Why do people do that? I think because for so long they didn't have validation. So like fibromyalgia, there's no, I passed the test for that. I could probably get a diagnosis of fibromyalgia. But I don't need it. I don't. So certain things, so it's like good to know that I have POTS and it's like, okay, I can take supplements, salt and electrolytes.

And I think part of like, so my doctor, when I got out of the hospital and started walking again, back to the ICU, I lived on these Meyer cocktails. I don't know why it was these IV fluids and it's vitamins, minerals, but also like saline, like also salt, which really helps, really helps people with POTS, but it helped me. So I would go get these, do you remember when my,

I was all bruised and I had all these, like I kind of looked like a druggie. I wasn't, but I kind of looked like one. But I think that it's like, okay, you finally have validation, but then you can't let your disease pigeonhole you. Yeah. So I think people are like, oh, chronic pain people, they're over there. Like, they're kind of crazy.

I think one of the graces that I have is that I am not I don't struggle with depression and anxiety, which I've had a lot of doctors be like, I thought everyone was supposed to struggle with those things today. I think you're allowed to be living without. No, you're right. It's so good. You don't at all. I don't. I have in my past. I've struggled with it in the past, but I am very much the glass is half full. And let's look at the infuriating. Let's look at the good things and let's focus on that. And I think that with the fact that I am Catholic is such a gift.

Knowing Christ suffered and died for love of me. This is my body broken and given for love of you. I get to partake in that with Him all the time. That last night, I was doing my breathing and doing my Jesus. That's what I do when I can't sleep or when I have pain or when I get so dizzy. It's deep breaths in, Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. And the same out. And Jesus, I love you.

Jesus, I trust in you. Jesus, I give you this pain. Unite it to you. So, I love Offer It Up. Like, I've taught that to our kids. I love that saying. And when I say Offer It Up, I don't mean to our kids. I love that saying. And when I say offer it up, I don't mean suck it up, princess. Suck it up, princess is very different to offering it up. Like, sucking it up

is I will do this by my own strength. And I have been very guilty of this in the past, which has gotten me sicker. So, with some of these diseases I have, like, I remember when they explained to me, they're like, okay, a normal person mows the backyard, but you with your diseases and sicknesses, you need to mow one fourth of the backyard and then sit and rest and think, how's my blood pressure doing? Take your blood pressure. How's my heart rate? And then you can go mow another fourth. And I'm like, I don't have time for that. Like, that's ridiculous. But that's my reality right now, which is a cross in and of itself, right? But offering it up is saying, okay, Lord, just like a priest at mass takes what looks like bread, you know, and just takes these mere little tiny gifts

and offers it up to the Lord. And and like it becomes Jesus's body and blood. I get to take my pain and my suffering and offer it up and the Lord uses it for beautiful things. Like for every way that I fail, I feel like I'm failing as a mom because my eight-year-old will say, Mom, do you remember when we used to go for walks and hikes and you could do that? Yeah, like that's hard. Or like, remember, mom, do you think you feel good enough to go to the store today? It's like, no, honey, I'm sorry, I can't, but let's sit and read a book and snuggle. And it's like offering that up and saying like, okay, like, Jesus, I give you this, I give you the pain of this. And pregnancy, like you don't have to have chronic pain to do this. People that have been pregnant. Like, you know, I was the worst pregnant person.

I suffered a lot through pregnancy. But it was beautiful to say, this is my body given up for you, Lord. Like, Jesus, I give you this. I give you this pain. I give you this suffering. And I pray that you use it to unite me to your sacred heart. Like, I don't know how to explain to someone what the sacred heart is, but I feel it. My heart is right there with him, right? And I think it is, it's a gift in some ways, and when my head's in a good place, it's great. And I am helping make saints,

and I am offering it up and saving souls. When I was in the hospital with COVID and I started praying for, I was so isolated, right? And I could barely breathe and everything hurt. And I know that the Lord was using my suffering to save souls in that very hospital and to help priest go and minister. And there's moments, I'm not good with my prayer life. You're much better with like doing your morning prayer, your evening prayer, getting to adoration, confession. Like you're so much more ordered, but mine's when I'm so sick and I can't do anything.

And it- You're, I'll be serving you drinks in heaven though, because your prayer life is far more superior to mine. And it took me a while to figure that out, because as a melancholic, I like things ordered, I like things structured. I was the guy that when we got married, I got a kneeler, I set up a little chapel,

I was super anal about everything. Meanwhile, you're suffering and offering it up. That's where the prayer is. But yeah, sorry, keep going. I think we pray differently, right? For me, I learned how to pray on a bathroom floor. Like that is it's humbling. It's rock bottom. When I was, when I was 19, someone gave me, I think one of the friars of the renewal made

it. It was this little square. It was a little piece of wood and it was the face of Jesus, like from the shroud, it was black and white. And I used to hold it in my hand when I was in and I was often face of Jesus, like from the shroud. It was black and white. And I used to hold it in my hand when I was in and I was often in the bathroom all night. I was just very sick and my GI tract was exploding every which way. And it was a lot of pain just curled up in a ball, right? Like you see me like that. It's gotten better. My GI stuff's gotten better, but then the rest of my body's kind of falling apart. But in that immense pain, um,

curling up in a ball and just looking at that, like that was my, that was my prayer. Like I wasn't able to go to mass so many times. Our team all went to daily mass. Often the priest would bring me communion. Um, and I'd always pray and I, and I'd have to, I have to think, could I keep down the Eucharist? Should I receive or not? Because there was times where I was so sick, I couldn't keep anything down. And it's like, yeah, no, I don't wanna be throwing up Jesus,

I'm not gonna receive today, but spiritual communion. But yeah, I fail at it. I definitely get discouraged and I wanna quit. And I think when you have so many doctors and you feel like, okay, I'm gonna be better any day. And it's like, I've been saying that for, for years, like since we moved here, what, how many days do you think I felt well in the last two years? No more than a week of days. Right. Maybe. Yeah. Yeah.

I think I would say probably the same, maybe week a good day here a good day there and and Taking them. Yeah I know one thing you've said which I'm sure will be a blessing to other people because they'll resonate with it is it's been difficult for you to grow in community here in Steubenville because You can't tell people I'll see you next Tuesday at 7 because you don't know how you'll be right? Yeah, what's that been like? people, I'll see you next Tuesday at seven, because you don't know how you'll be, right? Yeah. What's that been like?

It's hard. It's hard. So either you come off as flaky because you'll make plans and then cancel last minute. Or I have a couple of friends that have, I have a couple of friends that are one who's really struggling with a lot of the exact same things as me, which is very comforting. It's like, I get it. And another who's gone through health issues. And so I feel like they get it more people that have.

And then just telling people like, hey, listen, like, I would love to go to this thing with you on Friday. I may cancel last minute. Or if you want to come to my house. But what's been cool, too, is like as you've grown in friendship with these people and they understand and those are the friends really that you want to develop anyway. Like yeah, we have so many beautiful people. We got to do a shout out to star Plato.

Yeah, we have had Plato on the show before the fella. I'm gonna have his wife on my show. She's so beautiful. But what did she say? Well, she just she said can I come over and wash your hair? Yeah, there's something about having my hands above my head. I don't know what it is. I wash my hair and it's like I ran a 5K,

like back when I was in shape. That's how exhausted I am. And then to then try to blow dry it. Like I've had multiple times where I just collapse on the bed and I need to sleep for a few hours. And then maybe I can get up, but it's like, oh gosh, I shouldn't have done that. Hence going and paying someone to wash my hair.

But yeah, she was so beautiful and like she wasn't like that's what she she offered to do. Can I come wash your hair and blow dry it for you? And I felt so loved and so appreciated. And I was like, thank you. Yes. I would love that. Or neighbors where I've just been so sick. Like I yeah, we have beautiful neighbors who have helped me. Like I'm on the ground and I can't move. And I'm like, I need someone to help get me up the stairs or I need someone to drive me to the hospital.

But what stinks is you can't take me to the hospital in town because they'll just keep me in and I'll get so much sicker. I need you to drive me two hours to Cleveland. We have two different neighbors. Where was I? I think I was in Poland. Maybe, yeah. And yeah, you had- Sydney Welker took me and then-

Newton. Newton, yeah. Yeah, William Newton took me. Yeah. And I mean, that's a friend, right? And I don't want to ask that. Like I remember just being like, like I remember walking into the Newton's house

and they were like, hey, we haven't seen you in a while. How are you doing? And I'm like, I'm sorry, I'm really sick. And it's like, Oh, my goodness, sit down. What's wrong? And then just explaining what was going on. And it's like, what do you need? Like, let us help. And I just, we were still new in our friendship and I, I didn't want to go there. I didn't want to be like, Hey, could you just pick me up off the floor? Cause I'm so sick. Um, but that's what community is, right? Helping each other on, on good days and loving each other on the bad days. And so what's the most difficult thing about it other than the excruciating

physical agony? Like, is it that you mentioned earlier about wishing you could do things with the kids that you were once able to do? Not knowing if it's going to go away. So I hope that it will. I hope that I think from what I've read and studied, the fact that I'm dealing with mold toxins and Lyme disease, I think when we get rid of that and the pots and some other stuff, then I'll always have like EDS

and GERD and IBS. But, and I am very strict with my diet, you know this. So people are like, have you tried cutting out sugar? It's like, please, I haven't had sugar. Oh please. Oh my gosh. Dairy, cut it out, you know, gluten. Like I eat so clean.

Like I've even had doctors be like, you know what? You should probably add back in more things. But with mass cell activation syndrome. Talk about that. Yeah, so there's this thing, mass cell activations. We all have mass cells. And basically it's if there's a virus or something, your body fights it off.

So it's basically like, I don't know, I talked to the kids about good bugs and bad bugs in your body. This is not medical. Look it up online for the real thing. But this will prove my point at least. But basically your body goes into overdrive and it's fighting and it's like, okay, I'm gonna fight off whatever the sickness is and in times like when you're crazy sick, it's wonderful. It's so my body's like stuck in overdrive. So like the whole

fight or flight, I'm constantly in fight mode and my body is constantly in fight mode and my body is in such fight mode that it attacks myself. It's like an insecure person who takes every interaction as them person offending them. And so they're constantly like, yeah, yeah. And then what's crazy is one day I won't react to something, but another day I can. And it's like my body way overreacts, right? So like if I eat something that I shouldn't, I look nine months pregnant. And it's like, people are like, sure. I'm so, and it's like, no, no, no, I legit do. Like it's weird. My body just does.

Maybe four months. Okay. Four months pregnant. Thanks. I mean, I was a really big pregnant person. I feel like I was a normal person at nine months, but me at four months. Um, or like I recently was on a medication. I broke out head to toe in hives and it's like, really Jesus? Like, are there not enough other crazy things? And I feel like those moments where I'm tempted to go to despair, where it's like, I really need to lean in and just pray and offer it up and truly offer it up. Not a woe is me, not a pity party, but like, okay, Jesus, here this is. We all have crosses, whether you have chronic pain or health issues or whatever, we all have crosses and we all have pains in our lives

that we would love to switch with someone else. But God's given them to us, or He's allowed this to happen for whatever reason, right? And it's like, I can either turn and try to fight it all the time, or I can embrace it and be like, okay, Lord, what are you trying to teach me in and through this? So, it is so humbling to be at Mass and see 80-year-olds standing, kneeling. We go to a church with a communion rail. I can't kneel anymore. I go up and I do a weird leaning over thing. So I'm coming down, you know, to receive, but if there's been a few times that I haven't kneeled

and both hips, knees dislocate and I'm stuck, I'm like, oh, like in cruciating pain, middle of Mass. And I'm like, okay, I could just try to stay in this spot, you know? And it's super, really holy. Just kneel at the front. Mass is over. Everybody's cleared out and we'll come pick you up off the floor. Yeah.

What is that like? Because, you know, like we are afraid of being judged and, you know, you because of your blood pressure issues, standing, sitting, kneeling is a great way to become exhausted. And you can't kneel for the reasons you just gave. And so you're kind of leaning over the rail. you know, because of your blood pressure issues, standing, sitting, kneeling is a great way to become exhausted. And you can't kneel for the reasons you just gave. And so you're kind of leaning over the rail. So what's that like dealing with? Like people might be thinking, why isn't she kneeling for the Eucharist? Whether they're thinking that or not, you might think that they're thinking that. And what's that experience like? Yeah, I talked about this on my podcast before, and there was a girl who shared she's blind and are like legally blind but she there's like an app or something on her phone and she's able to follow along.

I don't know something but she always has her phone out or maybe she was deaf. Deaf makes more sense. She was deaf. Sorry, I'm getting him except she was deaf and always has her phone out to follow along and to do the readings and everything because she can't hear what's going on in the front and she's like I feel like people are looking at me and judging me and she's like in the beginning it upset me and I think for me too in the beginning I was like oh gosh and then I'm like you know what no like that's on

them like I don't think they are I really think most people aren't even noticing you they're more busy with what's going. And it's the same if you have a kid that's making noise at mass. Most other people don't notice them, it's just you. And so it's like, okay, Lord, I give, if there are people that are looking at me and judging me, I give them over to you and you do what you want with them and let me have peace with this is what I need

to do right now. And I'm still encouraging the kids to stand, sit, kneel. And it's- I'm often placing my hand on your shoulder so you won't stand up. I know, you do do that, which I find helpful. It's a good reminder. Or like if I'm the, do I get up?

Do I not? And when I'm not sure, or I'll wait, like I'll let us sing the hallelujah before, like I want to stand for the gospel, but I wait until the priest is like saying what gospel, and then I stand and then I, you know, so I, yeah, sometimes I can stand longer than others, but other times I just can't stand.

And I think learning your limits is really good. So we have a friend that has a really fat baby and I can hold him on good days, no problem. And I remember we were at like our homeschool co-op thing and Sarah went, Noah. I was gonna say this is my favorite baby the Bruins your baby, Bruno Oh, no, he's fat too, and it would be the same for him But this was Noah who's just a gorgeous fat baby, but on good days I can hold him she had to go teach and it's like could you hold him and I'm like, hey, I'm so sorry

Can I sit down and then you hand them to me? So it's not me being lazy, but it's like if I I hold him, I don't trust myself right now. Cause I'm very, um, I, I don't have good grounding and I may fall over and hurt both of us, but if I sit, I can hold him. Um, and like learning limits like that. And so like I'm very helpful on days that I feel good and I'm not very helpful on days that I don't. You mentioned your podcast earlier and want to give it a shout out because I'm sure there's a lot of women who are like, your wife's amazing. I think that and we're going to follow her.

So Among the Lilies is your podcast. Yes, it is. I enjoy it. It's fun. What this is a very sensitive question. I'm a little nervous to ask it. Go for it. I'd like you to be honest. What can I do better as someone who's your husband?

And I want to know, but I also know that there are a lot of people living with people with chronic pain. Yeah. What's helpful? What's not helpful? You've actually gotten a lot better. So I think, like, yeah, not, not nagging. You don't do that.

Um, but I think for other people out there who has a spouse not nagging them or thinking that they're lazy, um, I feel bad asking you, and we've had kids make comments that, um, someone called you the more laid back parent, which is hilarious. Anyone that knows us, I don't think- Laid back is not which is hilarious. Anyone that knows us. I don't think laid back is not what people would say about me. No, no, no. Which is unfortunate because Australia is supposed to be a country people to was laid back. Yeah, but it's okay.

I'm not laid back either. But what, what, what she meant was you don't ask her to do things. And I overly ask everyone to do things. And I'm not always good at communicating why. Like, especially if it's like, Hey, would you do this? Like, would you refill the kettle? Like I feel like I'm the only one that beautiful Russian tea kettle. I'm the only one that refills it. And on a good day I can do it. But on a bad day, that water pitcher, it hurts so bad to pick it up. So picking it up from the pantry and walking through the dining room and then holding it as I'm pouring There's something about it hurts so bad. And and so when I asked someone to do that, it's like

So that's one thing I could do better is just to be like, yes darling. No complain. No. Yeah. Yeah, that's great and I and I think you do like help with the kitchen and like Groceries like I I pretty kitchen and like groceries. Like I pretty much rely on groceries getting delivered. Like I've gotten to the point where I'm like, it's okay that Kroger doesn't know the difference between an apple and a kiwi. I'm ordering some type of fruit.

I'm gonna get the worst Bruce fruit, but they bring it to my door and I don't need to go in. There's something about going, it's so exhausting. And I've gotten to the point where I've had to use those like electric wheelchair things in the store. But you can't do it here because they're all broken and horrible. Like I tried one day and I was like using it

and it like died on me. And I'm like, all right, now I'm gonna get up and walk. So I look like a really lazy person. And it's like, what is that chick doing? She was gonna use it. It's like, nah, I can walk better. So I get up and walk around. Or same with like, I'll park.

I don't always park in the handicap, but I have a handicap pass. And on bad days, I park in handicap. But sometimes I think I'm having a good day, but then by the time I'm done walking around the store to walk back to a normal spot, like it's too far. It's exhausting. Like I've sat on things in the store and be like,

all right, I just need to regain my strength to get back out there. So you run into the store for me is huge, you know, carrying, lifting big things. Because I think why it's good to have you say this is when you live with somebody who's in constant pain, it's difficult to hear them afresh. Like, I feel like sitting here with you, I am hearing you maybe the first time in a long time, because when you're in pain for like 16 years of our marriage, it's like, I don't mean this in a bad way, but eventually it kind of just becomes like back the background kind of noise. Not that it's not important, but it's like, yeah, I know you're in pain. Like, I know it's like when someone's always sick.

And I'm sure that's so difficult for people who are constantly sick is because they want to convey how they're feeling. But when they've been saying it for so long, it's it's not that the person doesn't believe them. It's just like, yeah, I know. Like, I know you're sick, but it's like you're trying to communicate something new with the same language of how. Yeah, yeah, no, that's what's that like. And how can people like me who live with people with chronic pain do a better job? I think talking to me like this is good. This is good to have the conversation

You don't have to talk to your spouse that suffers with lights and cameras and everyone on youtube But just having this conversation I think is huge And then not trying to get other people to do what is my job Like this is this is something that it's helpful, but then it's also not helpful. So like hiring cleaners, I appreciate that. Like that is good. You work harder, we pay someone to come in

and clean the house once a week. That is good, but it's a lot on me to tidy the house before they come. And we've had that conversation and you've gotten better about like, okay, before I go to work, what can I do? Okay, so pick up tidy so then they can come in and clean. But I think sometimes you're like,

we just need someone here every day to help you. And I'm like, I don't want that. Like, I want you to help me. I want the kids to help me. I don't want to, and I do, we just hired someone else. We've had helpers that have come in and helped. That's humbling and really hard. And oftentimes I don't want more of that.

I just want you to understand and be okay. Like making, I used to always try to make the bed for you because I knew you felt loved by that. That's energy I don't have right now. So I don't make the bed. You do, which is great. Thank you. I usually do it at five PM when I come home from work

and then we get into bed. Yeah, because I'm still in bed by the time you get out of it. No, that's not what I meant. Oh, I see. No, but that's true too. So there is something too where I have nights where my pain is just so much or I have GI issues and I don't sleep.

And for some reason I can sleep. Well, last night I just was up all night and sometimes that happens, but I feel like I almost hit a deep sleep not to like 5 a.m. So like 5 to 8 or 9, I actually have a decent sleep. And it's like, if you just got up and schooled the kids more quickly and I'm like, yeah, but I can't because I can't function. And like, I need to move slow in the morning. Like, it's not just me. Like, I used to think it's me lazy or I'm not a morning person. But now that I have all these diagnosis and I've done research, I'm like, Oh yeah, I need to move slow because my body's not functioning yet. I need to have things in place like my compression socks or like

a brace or like my foot in souls or whatever, you know, and I need to go slow because I need my body to slowly get working. And it's not laziness. And not that you're saying it's laziness, but I think it's easy to look and be like, you're just being lazy, like just get up and go more quickly. Yeah. Yeah, and I think communicating is huge, because this doesn't just affect my body and what

I normally do. Like, there's so many facets to it, right? It affects the most intimate of our relationships, which is so hard. And it affects the house, it affects the kids. And I think it's especially hard when I was, like, yeah, I've been sick on and off a lot. I've done a lot of different hospital stays, but I used to have high energy and I used to get a lot done. And I think, I don't know, we became accustomed to that. And so I think that you probably do have an expectation of me. And I think you have had to change that over the last couple of years and you've been great with that.

Yeah, I think just yeah, it is hard. I think, you know, another day we'll have to have a discussion about those who are living with people who are dealing with these things, because I think. Those who are living with people who are dealing with these things because I think. This is what what's a you're right it does affect all different. It affects so much right and I think the person who's living with the person in chronic pain. They have to try to deal with living with somebody in chronic pain, but they feel like a bastard because they're not the one in pain, so they shouldn't be the one asking, how do I how do I do this? Like, how do I how do I rethink how marriage looks and how raising kids looks

and how the house should look and how I can't go on a walk with my wife or how I can't like that. That's hard. Yeah, but to complain about it just seems like you're an awful human being. That's also the cross. Like that's your cross. I know. But I wonder, are there places for people to get together to see?

Because I think what won't work is for people like me or people living with someone with chronic pain to be like, yeah, I just have to I just have to offer this up. Yes, you do have to offer it up. But you also need people to show you how to do that. And so I hope that there are places where I'm not even really sure if there are where it's like, how do I be a better husband to someone like this? How do I be a better father, a better brother, you know? Yeah. Or maybe there are men with chronic pain. I guess obviously there are. Whenever I hear about it seems to be women, but like, how do I like, yeah, that makes sense? Yeah, no, it totally makes sense. And I think, um,

I think it's good to ask the question. And even the fact that you are asking the question, but like this is part of our marriage vows in sickness and in health. I am so sorry that sickness was like so much bigger than the health. I feel like you got, will you take her in sickness and health? Um, and even like our, our honeymoon, like that's when I like, like our honeymoon phase was over so quickly because like I was good. And then I got really sick. I don't. Yeah, but you make up for all the ways that you might lack physically.

You know what I mean? Like, you're really cool. Thanks. Yeah. This has not been difficult. It's been difficult. For sure, it's been difficult. Yeah. But like on a good day, I wouldn't trade any of it. Thanks. Yeah, this has not been difficult. It's been difficult. For sure, it's been difficult. Yeah. But like on a good day, I wouldn't trade any of it. Thanks. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's not like you find ways to make things work. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And I. It's difficult. Yeah. Yeah. And if it wasn't this, it would be something else. Well, and that's the thing with my sickness. Blah thing to say, but let me just kind of unroll that for a bit. Like if it wasn't this, it's not like we'd be walking around and having nothing to complain about. There would just be something that looked like Mount Everest

that we had to overcome that would be nothing compared to this. But we don't have this as a reference point. And so it's how we had Mount Aragile in Ireland. Ireland, yeah. Yeah. And we had other things to overcome then. And it's yeah, I I once went to confession here on campus. I was just really struggling to love you. And I was just getting frustrated with you being sick and just

I knew it wasn't your fault. Right. Like, I knew that objectively, but it was just like everything was just so frustrating. Like, and I went to confession and I confess that. And it was nice. I got a nice slap. It was he's like, well, buddy, you promised in sickness and health and guess what?

Now sickness. So what are you going to do? I was like, all right. All right. He's up, man. No, I was so grateful for that. But I think in fairness to you, too, it went from I would have these sick flare ups in Georgia. So it would be like maybe once a month or every three months, I would just get

crazy sick and like not function. And when we moved to Stephenville, it was like always not functioning. I think the first six months, I think I had three, three different week long hospital stays. Yeah, this has been the most difficult thing we even like like there's a video online people can go check out. It was when you and I announced that we were moving to Steubenville. Remember that? Oh, yeah. We look 10 years younger. Yeah, we have we have aged.

Significantly. Yeah. I feel like we both have. Yeah. It's so much more white in my beard and in my hair. I just I mean, I move like a grandpa or a grandma or that. Yeah, I don't know. My dad was like a grandpa or a grandma or that. I don't know. My dad was like getting out of a chair, like making noises. And then I did the same thing. He was like, Oh, Cameron, I'm like, dad, you sound the same. He's like, yeah, but I'm an old man. I'm like, that's fair. Yeah. Yeah. No, but that's, that's important because just like,

you wouldn't get any better if you weren't allowed to express how much pain you're in and how difficult things are. Someone living with people with chronic pain, they need to also find a way to express this. How would you recommend someone do that? Because you probably have like your cup is full, like, you know, and as much as like you might want to hear me or a woman or husband might want to hear their spouse, maybe they're not in the place to take any more on because they're suffering is enough as it is. Yeah. I think finding someone that's been there before you yeah, that's come through it Yeah, so like I've mentioned you like talk to Plato or talk to you know And I think having someone that's been there before I think it's the same with like being a dad and like adjusting to that

like we got thrown a really crazy colicky sick baby and grown a really crazy colicky sick baby. And, um, and we were alone in a freezing cold house in Ireland, in Ireland, you know, and, um, and I remember, I still remember, uh, Sheena Foy sitting us down and like doing an intervention. And she's like, you have a rough, you have a hard baby. I'm like, no, no, no, I don't. He's fine. I don't know why I had an Irish accent, but she's like, Oh no, he's very rough. You're, you're, you're killing Matt here. You got to let him know it's very hard. You have a hard baby.

That was painful for me because we had a hard life with that beautiful child who just happened to be colicky. And I felt like I was like, this is freaking hard. And you're like, no, no, it's great. It's great. And I feel like we were we both needed to change. Yeah. Right. Like, I feel like I needed to be validated in why this was so painful so I could like ease off telling you all the time that it was so painful. And you needed to kind of agree with me without falling into despair. You know, yeah, this is tough. This is friggin tough. Yeah. What are we going to do? Yeah. And I think I was I was we both were in survival mode

and we just went at it different ways. So I was hospitalized with Liam more than I wasn't. So I was pregnant for almost 10 months, nine and a half months. And I spent over half that time in the hospital. In the beginning, it was like dehydration because I was vomiting and everything. And then it was crazy stomach pains. And then it was all these contractions and they thought he was coming early and like, it was just a lot, right? And then nevermind his birth, right? I labored for what? Three days and then finally ended up with an emergency C-section and my epidural didn't take. I mean, that was excruciatingly

painful. And then because, because I had, because, so, so the epidural didn't take, but they had to get him out. His heart rate was, he was in trouble, I was in trouble. And I still remember the anesthesiologist being like, you can't do anything, and the doctor's like, we need to get the baby out. It's like, cut me open, just do it. And they strapped me down, which I find so fascinating.

My arms were straight out. So this is not an American C-section, I need you to know. We were in Ireland. So people that had a C-section in the 70s, before I was born, that's what my C-section was. So it was pelvic bone to pelvic bone, my whole body. And- Man, I can't even hear this without wanting to throw up.

I can't imagine going through it. You went through it, you were there. Of course, well, I went through it, I didn't go through it. And well, they rushed you out of the room. I started reacting from pain and then they put me under. My gosh.

And so, they took you out of the room. And I remember coming to and just saying, this is my body, giving up for you. Jesus, I love you. I entrust this child to you and not knowing if he or she was alive. And then because I had all my GI issues, they didn't give me medicine. Do you remember? They wouldn't give me any pain meds. They gave me Panadol. Why don't you explain to the Americans what Panadol is? It's Tylenol. That's it. That's it. And so I couldn't even walk until like day seven. I was in excruciating pain. You snuck me an extra strength Panadol. I'm pretty cool. I would've been cooler if I snuck you in whiskey. Or morphine, something more powerful.

Yeah, like you don't cut a woman open and then like, good luck. But it was rough and I feel like we both were in survival mode. And yeah, yeah, I don't even know where we were going with that. Sorry. But the cross, what else? I just got a text from Father Jason. I didn't mean to look at it, except it popped up and I wanted to read it. Um, I'm not going to, he says, I very pious and loving family in one of our

Ukrainian parishes lost a baby at birth last night. Would you pray for them, Matt? I'm not going to say their names. Yeah, but we just ask through the intercession of God, the most, well, through the intercession of blessed, the blessed Virgin for the healing of these parents and the pain they're going through and for the salvation of their little baby. Yeah, brutal. Yeah, we all, we're all, life's hard. Life little baby. Yeah, brutal. Yeah, we all.

Life's hard. Life is hard. Freaking hard. That's the one thing Peterson gets right. I think that's partly why we love him so much. Because he says life's hard. It's like, it's brutal. He'll kick the shit out of you.

And all of you at some point will be destroyed and it'll be worse than you think it will be. And we're all like, thank God someone said it, because I thought I was weird. You know, like you get all those cliche, crappy quote posters at high schools about. Walk a mile in another person's shoes. You ever heard the joke to that one? I told Avila that she loved it. Yeah, you've heard the joke.

You've heard the. Yeah, I know. Before you judge somebody, before you make fun of somebody. Walk a mile in their shoes. Because when you make fun of them, you'll be a mile away from them and you'll have their shoes. Very good. Very good. Yeah. Yeah, no, I think it's good to admit.

Yeah, life is hard. And that's another thing that they say with like chronic pain and everything is mentally like keeping your head. So many people struggle with depression and anxiety. And then when you don't have validation, you go to despair and like not going there and not overly focusing on the sickness. Could we take questions from our local supporters? Sure.

Yeah, I'd love to. If it's okay, could you try to keep the answers concise? Because there's a lot of questions here. All right. So, yeah, let's see. Ilhal says, I hope this won't be too difficult. Recently, a Canadian company, Simon's, maybe ran a TV ad celebrating a woman who decided to utilize assisted suicide to end her pain. I believe she suffered from the same syndrome that your wife suffers from. EDS. What would Cameron say to those contemplating such a sad situational solution? What would

you say to that woman who wanted to kill herself and then did? There is hope. This is why I don't know how you can suffer and not know Jesus. Like you've got to lean in on him. Know the Lord, like turn to him, give your pain over to Him. And there is hope, like, I have a great life. I love my life. I have beautiful, amazing kids. Great husband. Great, good looking husband with a lovely face. You people stop telling him to grow his beard back.

But I, yeah, like there is hope. I think part of it is we also live in a world where we don't wanna be a bother to anyone else. So I think people turn to euthanasia to be like, it's the right thing to do. No, it's not. Your suffering will help you grow and make you a better person. And it also makes all those around you grow and become better people. I really want to talk to Father Dave.

His mom had MS. I've heard him mention it like briefly, but he talks about the beauty of that and like she was a good mom and he talks about loving her and I'm like, okay, that didn't ruin you. It didn't ruin you to that. You didn't have a healthy mom. Like I, like I do. Yeah. Yeah. Like you have to have hope and I don't, I don't know how to do it. If you're not religious, like you've got to and I don't I don't know how to do it if you're not religious. Like you've got to turn to God. I don't know how else you would.

A lot of tequila. No, no, that makes the dizziness even worse. OK, no, that's no. Yeah. Yeah, it's hard to say this because it might sound like I'm just trying to like say something nice to you for the sake of it. But like you're a frickin fantastic mother. And I'm so glad that you're the kind of mother who hops around the house saying, praise you, Jesus, praise you, Jesus. Then the kind of mother who gets up early and goes to CrossFit every morning or something

like it'd be nice if you did both, I guess. But like, it's really cool that like you're a great mom, fricking great mom. Thanks. That's how the kids imitate me. Praise you, Jesus. Praise you, Jesus. It's a good way to be making fun of you. Yeah. All right.

Let's see. A Griffin loves is how to navigate concerns over slothfulness. As someone with a degenerative condition, I find it hard to determine the line between taking care of my body and its needs for rest. When sometimes that means putting myself and my desire for rest before work, spousal duties, events, and sometimes even church. So just to kind of maybe sum this up, like I see your point where it's like, you don't understand how much I need to rest. And if I push myself, I will actually get worse.

But surely you've asked yourself the question, at what point am I just being like, is it possible that I can still be lazy or is that no longer a possibility because I have this sickness? Like, where's that line? Yeah, so I am not someone, we all have certain sins that we're drawn to. Slothfulness is not one that would be on my radar, really. I used to think I was lazy. Like as a kid, I got told that I was lazy a lot.

And I remember like, that was a lie. I address it in Kristalina Everett's new book. I wrote a chapter on lies for her. Um, women make new, but I talked about it and I remember, um, a friend of mine on net said like, why would you think you're lazy? Like you're one of the most doer type people I know. You just get stuff done and you're like, why do you think you're lazy? And I was like, well, because I think about myself first or whatever, like whatever my reasons were. She's like, no, like that's not.

And so it was, it was eye opening to be like, okay, no, I'm not. Like I don't. So I think, I think different temperaments have- In fact, I can't keep up with you. The few days that you felt good, I'm like, oh gosh, here we go. Where we go? I think different temperaments have different sins. They're more likely to be, and I think

phlegmatics maybe would struggle. Like I remember telling a friend about the whole like mow a fourth of the lawn, sit and rest. She's like, I would love that disease. That would be so good for me. She's very phlegmatic and melancholic. But for me, it's a huge cross. So I don't struggle with it. I do feel that I don't do as much and I sit, but I try to pray. I try to read. I try to be with my kids. I try to be present. That's why I like sitting in the recliner chair with my feet up. And it's like, okay, I'm there. I'm still in the center of everything. Yeah. The podcast is secondary. Like I will go too long between episodes. I'm not consistent. I fail at it. But my main thing is not the podcast.

My main thing is you and the kids. Yeah, but you also don't fail at it. Like actually as a podcaster, not talking about like as a mother who's got to keep her duties in check. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm saying like, it would be better for you to put out a meaningful podcast once every two and a half weeks than to spit out something for the sake of spitting it out.

And your episodes are really good, I think. Katie says, because of my health issues, I struggle with getting excited about anything that requires effort, planning, food prep, especially travel, even if it's something I should really be excited about. How do you manage or set healthy expectations for travel based on your body's capabilities?

Yeah, so I always have to bring my own food. So I have certain foods that I know that I can have. So if I'm traveling, I normally hit up a Trader Joe's because I have set things that I can buy there or Whole Foods. Uh, I'll bring RX bars, plantain chips. Um, I'll have enough and I've learned that I'm better off fasting than just eating what's in front of me. So I try to bring enough food for when I'm traveling and then I

can't eat at most restaurants. So I find if I go to a sushi restaurant, I'm okay with sushi, but I need to bring my own coconut aminos. I'm less likely to react where if I go to a steak restaurant, I've had like a steak and a baked sweet potato and I've been crazy sick. And I think it's because of an oil or something they use. So learning, okay. And then if I go even just going to a party or something, I always eat ahead of time or bring something that I can eat because it's not worth that sickness. And then I travel with my pillow. I travel with my compression socks, knowing certain things that I'm like, okay, these are the things I need. And then as humbling as it is, when I travel, I get a wheelchair.

When I get to the airport, there's something about airports. It's a lot of walking, a lot of fluorescent lights, a lot of like pulling a suitcase. Like it hurts really bad. I can suck it up and do it, but then I wreck myself for the next week. So I will get the wheelchair assistance. I'll park in the handicapped spot, get the wheelchair assistance. And then only if, and then once I get, I can walk on the plane myself. They don't even wheel me down. I've done it where like the kids have pushed me, like I've traveled with the kids and you weren't with me and I let them push the wheelchair. And so, cause I was really nervous.

I'm like, I feel really bad, but I don't know how else to do this. And I asked them, I'm like, what do you guys think? Like should, should I get a wheelchair and one of you could push me or should we all just kind of walk and maybe one of you hold, Oh my goodness, that'd be so fun. Can we do that? I'm like, yes, let's do it. So I kind of turned it into a game. Um it is, it's super humbling. But,

yeah, but being prepared or I have like a hip brace thing that I'll wear. So knowing things that you can do to set yourself up for success. Will Barron It's a good answer. So we've kind of answered this question, but I've got to spin on it. All right. So Enrique says, how can I best support my spouse with her chronic pain if she doesn't seem to want to get better from it herself? Actually, I didn't know where that question was going. I thought it was just going to be, how do I support my wife? Which we kind of talked about. But if she doesn't seem to want to get better, what would you say? And what I was going to the spin I was going to put on it is because somebody says, this is my question as well is like, rather than like generally like, well, you could

be more helpful. Like what's one thing Enrique can do today? Do would you say to help his wife in his estimation doesn't seem to want to get better. Look her in the eye, tell her that you love her. You're sorry she's going through this. You believe her. You believe her symptoms. Now, does she truly not want to get better or does she just think there's a bunch of other diseases and things? Because that's legit.

Like that is legit that like, okay, this is what's wrong with me right now. And it's even people like even cancer, like cancer falls into this because here's the thing. That like if you have cancer, it's like, okay, I'm going to fight cancer, and then you overcome it, and people are like, oh, you're in remission. That's great. You're over it. It's like, no, every year that they have to go for whatever test to see if the cancer's back, that's coming back, that anxiety.

And everyone else is like, no, no, no, you dealt with it. You fought cancer. You're done. But to that person, it's like, I have to relive that. There's people that have been cancer free for 30 years. But every time they go for a mammogram or a colonoscopy, that fear and that like knowing, like it may come back. They may say, actually it's everywhere and you're gonna die.

Wow. I had never thought of that before. So that's a great point. So what might be being perceived as she doesn't want to get better or he doesn't want to get better. First of all, it's understandable. I mean, when you've got 8,000 conditions and you've got a thousand experts telling you a thousand different things.

Yeah, I desperately want to get better. The amount of pills you have is insanity. Oh, I agree. It's ridiculous. There was one time I came home and I made you lunch. And by the time I had finished it, you were still filling up your little pill containers. And that was just for the week.

Yeah. Yeah. A lot of it is supplement. Like some of them are drugs that I need to keep my blood pressure up or so I can keep food down. up your little pill containers. And that was just for the week. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of it is supplement. Like some of them are drugs that I need to keep my blood pressure up or so I can keep food down. Um, but a lot of supplements, like my body doesn't, like I have, like I take so many like magnesium supplements, but it doesn't show up in my body.

My body just has a hard time receiving. And so I have really good doctors that are helping me and different doctors have tried different plans. So it's like when I hit a dead end with one, I'm like, Oh gosh, I'm like, okay, I'm going So I have really good doctors that are helping me and different doctors have tried different plans. So it's like when I hit a dead end with one, I'm like, oh gosh, I'm like, okay, I'm going to try this one, you know? And I'm not like, I talked about going to Florida to this chiropractor. I always feel bad calling him a chiropractor.

This healing guru man that I really like, he makes me feel so much better. Like no one has. And he presses like it's cranial, something or other. He likes to God. Like if, if, yeah. So this fellow was here in student bill, you went over, he did a few things on your back and your head or whatever you came out. I would have swore it was a healing. It was that remarkable. You, your whole countenance looked different. I felt so much better. What did that man do? Yeah. How do I get him to live with us? I felt so much better. What did that man do?

Yeah. How do I get him to live with us? I like, and I have, I flown down to Orlando and I'm going again, I'm driving down to, because he does give me so much more healing. And I think oftentimes with chronic stuff, it's like, sometimes you do something. So you have to weigh the withdrawals and deposits.

So you do things that give you deposits, which are really good, like sitting and putting your feet up, taking your electrolytes, wearing your support belts, whatever it is, compression socks, whatever the things are, and they help give you deposits. Some are little deposits and others are large. Sometimes it's acupuncture, sometimes,

but anyhow, I was talking about him and someone wrote in the comments and they were like, you need to go to a real doctor because you actually have real diseases. Chiropractors don't do anything. Okay. Well, obviously you haven't been following me and you don't know that I have tons of specialists and I do have real doctors and I'm not going to him to crack my back to make me better. Like he does a bunch of other stuff as well. Yeah. So I think letting her know and then asking her, like ask her, do you want to get better? I want to help you get better and see my guess is she may break down and say, I don't think I can get better.

And she's in a place of despair and you need to love her, pick her up and say, listen, we got this. We will fight it together. I love you. We're in it together. I love you. We're in this together. There is hope. We'll try a different doctor. We'll try a different approach.

I don't know how many times we've like pivoted to a different, and sometimes you feel like you're giving up because you've tried one thing, but like I think about the time I was in the hospital in West Virginia and they were so focused on They just wanted to do a colonoscopy to get things to move or whatever and they couldn't they couldn't pivot Like they were trying all the same things and I was just so sick and they were doing like colonoscopy preps and every enema Under the Sun and they're like we should have cleared out a 500 pound man. What's wrong with you? I'm like, I know I have issues

I don't know. I don't know what to tell you. Could we try something else? And like, no, we just need to. And they couldn't redirect. And so they just kept me in and eventually did like a NG tube and like got me kind of good enough. And then afterwards they were like, yeah, I think you just have really bad IBS.

And it's like, no, no, no. What about, why couldn't you clear me? Like, what was that? Like what was going on there? And they're like, we don't know. Or you're fine. And I was like, no, no, no, what about, why couldn't you clear me? Like, what was that? Like, what was going on there? And they're like, we don't know. All right, you're fine. And I was like, no, no, no, I'm not fine. But they couldn't, they couldn't shift. And so that's kind of when I shifted the nurse actually was like, I think you need to look into Cleveland Clinic. They look at a bigger picture. Mayo Clinic looks at a bigger picture. So I think just

telling her, asking her, don't assume that she doesn't want to get better. I think oftentimes with chronic stuff, people assume they like being sick. I don't like it. Katie says, so many excellent questions already listed. I too deal with chronic pain and those mystery illnesses that seem to be for women these days. I was diagnosed with limes last year. On one of Cameron's YouTube videos, I asked if she was on an antihistamine diet and she said she is. I have food intolerances and have had to do restrictive diets like ones that don't add

to inflammation and the antihistamine diet. Since it already limits my food intake significantly, I find it challenging to observe fast and meatless days, especially with time and financial limitations. How does Cameron handle these days of fasting and meatless days? So if you're sick, you're not required to fast. Yeah. And I think it's especially, yeah, like finding. So I have certain things that I'm like, okay, I can do like, like RX makes this nut butter that tastes like cookie dough. I love it.

It's really good dates and almonds. Yeah, it's dates and almonds, but I, I handle it very well. And so I'll do that. Um, yeah, I, I will definitely have Fridays. Like we try not to eat meat as families on Friday, but I will. It's like, okay, well this is the only thing I can have. I'm fasting in other ways. I have other ways of, I have other things that I'm offering up. It's like the vegetarian fasting from meat on Fridays. That's not a thing that doesn't count. You're vegetarian, find something else.

I'll say to Katie, I don't know you obviously, but if you're struggling with scruples regarding this, consult your parish priest and allow him to dispense you, if that would help. Yeah. Okay, this person says, let's see, Cappuccinozzi, how to differentiate between self-care and self-indulgence?

When do you draw the line between, I need to get rest, get a massage, and I need to accept the pain and fulfill my duties? This is very hard for me, whether it is regarding my work or even fasting seasons. God bless you and your wife, I live with EDS too, and it's a life full of surprises to say the least. Yes. Yes. That's a good question. So we mean self-indulgence and

self-care, where's the line? I think that it's easier if you have a family because they will tell you if like if I was being more self-indulgent, you would call me on it. The kids would call me on it. I think if you're a single person, that's a little harder. You could probably do more things. I should go more. I should be getting massages. I should- Please do that.

What's hard is I don't know if I'm gonna have a good day or bad day to go do it. Right, right, right, right. So if I can do it last minute, it's the same with, like I should go get someone else to wash my hair one day a week. Like this was $35 well spent. Like a part me is like I'm like it's ridiculous to pay $35 for someone to wash and blow dry my hair, but then it's like okay that wipes me out for two days

$35 is totally worth having two days of my life back What about if you could find if we could find a masseuse to come to the house would that be better? Maybe but then again, is it a good day or bad day? Yeah. So I think if you just have to lay on your stomach, how bad can it be? Well, there's some days. Do you remember when, um, when we got that couples massage and I was like screaming and like, oh, and the woman's like, I need you to know that I'm touching you. So she was like massaging both sides of my back. She's like, but I was freaking out on my left side. It was killing. And she's like, I just need you to know this is how I'm touching you and on my right side It was fine, but my left side it was Wow killing me

It was so painful and I think that's something with the brain miss triggering pain sing signals So yeah, I think I think take it to prayer too and like, okay, what am I doing? Is this self care? So for me, I need to do my red light therapy. I try to do it every morning and night. It doesn't always happen. There's certain things that are just required. I need to do. I think I err on the not doing enough.

So I think that's right. I wish you would do more, but I will like go to Orlando. Yeah, because I see such huge results. It's sweet if you lived in Miami. We so much cooler than Orlando. Yeah, yeah. You go there instead. I'd come with you.

You don't want to come to Orlando, but you'll go to Miami. All right. If you're listening, Dr. Peter says perhaps somewhat tangentially related, but I'm an orthodox husband to a nominally Protestant wife who suffers with chronic fatigue. This is what I said earlier.

Like everyone I encounter who says they have chronic illness is a woman. I know obviously there are men who struggle with chronic illness and chronic pain, but like in your experience, is it mainly women as well? Like what's going on? So for me, yes, it is women and, um, but it's also my audience. Like that's who I'm speaking to.

I think part of it is they say that, um, just as they say, like black people don't get as good of care, like people stereotype them or people with tattoos will get a stereotype going into an ER. They say that's will get a stereotype going into an ER. They say that's the same with women going into an ER. They are more likely to give them just like pain meds, like something, they don't take it as seriously as a man. A man coming in, even if heart attack symptoms, men and women, same symptoms.

They act more quickly for him than they do for her. Really, why do you think that is? I think there is a stereotype that women are not as strong as men. And we don't handle, we don't handle pain as well. That is not true. We handle pain so much better than whenever they give me a needle. Yeah. No, no, no. And we, every month, how do you, there you go. All right. So yeah, there are definitely guys that have have it. But I think you're right. I think there is more. I mean, is chronic pain a new thing?

I think we found a term that we didn't use before. So like Crohn's disease has been around for a while, but not even that long. Or like the whole we were saying, ADD. Now it's ADHD. Like we learn more about it. And same with fibromyalgia, EDS. It's like, OK it's ADHD, like we learn more about it. And same with fibromyalgia, EDS, it's like, okay, wait, all these people have the same pain, and they have these weird things with their body and these diseases. So we're coming out with things like,

oh, this is the thing. And then a lot of them are under the umbrella of, and so like an acute illness is like you break your arm, and then it heals. You're done. Chronic stuff you have. I think that definition is like three months or longer, but most people, it's your life. It's a lifelong illness. I just realized I was only halfway through this man's question. Sorry. No, you're fine. He says chronic fatigue. This is his wife and autoimmune disorder.

What advice would you give to someone who wants to be a good spouse to someone who is often incapable of fulfilling the trad wife role without compromising on her on being a spiritual leader in the home. I don't fully understand the question, but. Well, I mean, that's it is a good question. I mean, there's there is perhaps more pressure on wives in traditional families to fulfill certain duties. And they might take their identity in that, right? Like I'm the wife, I need to keep a clean house.

I need to care for my kids, care for my husband. I need to homeschool. I need to be going to mass every day. And like, you know, so what's, what advice do you have to someone who's putting that much pressure on themselves? I think he needs to- And to the spouse, yeah.

Yeah, I think he needs, like, so I don't normally clean the kitchen. It's to enter the spouse. Yeah. I think he needs, like, so I don't normally clean the kitchen. It's you and the kids. There's something about standing for that long and picking up heavy. I have cast iron things. Oftentimes I need you guys to pick it up for me. Um, so you and the kids clean the kitchen more. I do more of the cooking, but y'all like help clean up behind me and, and it makes it so I can cook for you, right? So I think taking on things that maybe you wouldn't have otherwise, so like vacuuming or whatever.

Yeah, I think, and also like, I think trying to find help. So I think just saying you have chronic fatigue, yeah, I have chronic fatigue too, but not just taking it that I'm always gonna be tired. It's like, okay, I'm trying these different supplements and some of them are helping. This California poppy is like a miracle drug. It's like this, I don't know if it's called, I forget what the name of the, the it's standard processing. And there's a supplement that I'm taking. And like the first day I took it, I was like, really? How cool.

Like it's the way coffee, like coffee kind of wakes you up a little bit. This drug does that for me. Wow. And same with low dose naltrexone at night. If you use it, it won't help you sleep, but it helps me sleep. Also, I tell you, crack cocaine has really helped you too.

Cleaning the kitchen a lot faster than you used to. I do not use cocaine. You used to be like, listen to a podcast. But when you started taking crack cocaine, no, but like you really just false. But also like magnesium, like high doses of magnesium at bedtime. Anyhow, Rye Legion says, Matt, I'm a physician and in a rural setting without specialists and I find chronic pain to be difficult for both provider and patient. I have found that hand holding or walking along with the patient is my biggest role. It's a very subjective experience and different for every person with many

times medicine being a cover up rather than a cure. Whom does your wife trust more? The very aggressive provider who will get to the bottom of it no matter what or the most the more conservative provider who will be there when you need someone to talk to who do you what's his question who do you trust more? Yeah, so I've gone through different experiences. So when I'm like really, really sick and in the hospital, I want someone finding answers. So that neurologist that sat in my room and I was like, do you think I'm crazy? He's like no, like you're really sane. That's the problem I'm having because like the MRI is not showing anything something seriously wrong with you and the fact that you

Like and it was like time like I don't know so but he was digging in and looking for the answer Even though he didn't have it. Yeah, I think the doctors that I've had that have been my favorite Combine the East and the West. They're not, you have to be on medicine, we're gonna make like, here's 50 billion pills. And they're not like, if I adjust you, you'll be fine. They're in between. And it's like, okay. If you just use doTERRA behind the ears. I do use some oils, but they don't cure me at all. They help clear out my sinuses sometimes.

But I think doing both, but also encouraging them to get more answers and letting them like, you're your own advocate, like figure it out. Like my POTS diagnosis came because Mother Natalia, you had her on this show and it was the two of you talking and you're like, wait, I think you know what my wife has. And then I went to a doctor and was like, I think I have this. And it was like, why didn't no one else find that? Like, encourage your patients to be their own advocates and don't stay on medicine that doesn't work.

Like I've been on medicine long enough to like, so like my medicine, my medidrin, I think it is, it helps keep my blood pressure up. I don't take it all the time because I have some days where I don't need it. If I take enough electrolytes, I can keep it up and I take some other supplements as well. But I have it for when I need it or like pain meds.

Like sometimes like morphine won't touch my pain. But gabapentin helps immensely. And it's something because it's neurological and same with different therapies like physical therapy or yeah like help them look for things but tell them to be their own their own advocate. Yeah okay little something says not chronic pain but chronic illness when you suffer chronically is it actually frivolous to go to 4,000 doctor appointments and get all of the expensive supplements, treatments and medicines they recommend? If Jesus wanted me well right then, he would make me well. If he doesn't want to do that, the medical expenses seem like a frivolity, even though Jesus might want to give other people the chance to cooperate with him in the treatment. It's hard to know when to call it quits.

How much money can I lavish on my sick self before I know I am incurably sick until heaven, especially in the days of inflation. It seems like I could be spending my medical expense money on more appropriate place. Yeah, that's hard. And I hear that. And I think every person has to decide on their own. I think if you're in a situation where you keep hitting dead ends and nothing's helping, stop going there. So for me, for a while, I was very aggressive going to Cleveland Clinic. Like it's a two and a half hour drive. I think at one point I had like six different specialists. But then once I got certain

diagnoses, I was like, okay, now I need to look at this. How do I heal this? And then I found this doctor in Columbus that's more full integrative medicine. And it's like, okay, I'm gonna try that. I'm gonna go with that route. And I think you have to listen to your body. I can sit up straight now.

There was probably a year, year and a half that I had to be curled up in a ball. Yeah. So because I went after those things, I found things and have helped kind of heal. Yeah. How encouraging is that to find healing in one area? Yeah. Is it? It is, but then there's always something else.

I know there's always something else, but the fact that something's working for something's got to be something. Yeah. Yeah. And I think being willing to go to extremes, like I've done like the GAPS diet where I only had bone broth for the longest time or yeah, low histamine, like watching, like any autoimmune diet I've tried. And I do have to be careful with inflammation,

but like my health is worth it. So what's funny is like, okay, I spend that much money to go see a doctor who's gonna give me five minutes of his time. Why would I not spend actually less money to fly to Florida to a guy that just makes me feel better? I don't understand it. I don't know why he like presses on and he like moves my joints where I'm in excruciating pain. He holds it like right as the bones about to pop out and he's like, just wait, breathe, breathe. And then it goes from being the most pain. And then all of a sudden there's no pain.

Yeah. I just, I want to buy this man everything he ever wants. Like, what does he want? I'll get it for him. I just love him so much. I'm so grateful to this man. Yeah. But like that's worth it. So for me, it's like, okay, that does seem ridiculous. You have like 20 chiropractors within a 10 minute, 20 minute drive. And it's like, I don't know, but this guy can help me. So it's worth going to the extreme or like the Myers cocktail. Like if you have something, they even say like saline drips, like getting a bag of fluids, like can help a lot of chronic conditions. And I've always felt that like when I go to the hospital,

when I was so sick and then they just give me bags of fluid, I'm like, okay, I feel better. I don't know if it's because I'm just getting rehydrated or, yeah. Yeah, it's hard and every person's so different and you can have all the same GI stuff or all the same. Like I have friends with Crohn's disease and celiac. And they're like, Cameron, you have this, you have this.

Like I have a lot of these things. And it doesn't, I think the main thing is like, that's not my identity. I am not someone. How hard has that been to fight against? doesn't, I think the main thing is like, that's not my identity. I am not someone. How hard has that been to, you know, fight against? Cause you've brought that up a couple of times now. Has that been a temptation for you to take your identity in your pain? I think, I think in the aspect that you feel like maybe you are crazy. Like I think you

get to the point and they talk about even doctors who have like their doctors themselves, they understand all the lingo and they're going to their doctors and like, Hey, I have this weird thing going on and people are dismissing them. And it's like, I'm not crazy. I know I'm not crazy. I know I have this pain. Like there's been situations where like people have broken bones and then the bone technically healed, but their, their limb is like limp and the ligaments are all messed up and the nerve endings are all messed up and the nerve endings are all messed up and they can't use it. And it's like, what is that? Like, and they can't figure it out. And they're like, I think it's, you need to see a psychologist. And it's like,

okay, I'll see a psychologist, but also my arm's limp and I can't use it. So, um, yeah, I think being your own advocate, fighting for it. And I think sometimes you go online and you find some diagnosis, whatever it is, chronic pain, and you find other people and you're like, I'm not alone.

There's other people that have all these weird things. Yeah. And they also have these other weird things that I didn't think was related to any of my health stuff. It makes sense why people would wanna take identity, their identity in a place where they finally feel accepted. Yes. But you're saying don't do that.

No, because I think that pigeonholes you. And I think it makes you, I feel like it kind of almost makes you give up. And you're like, this is who I am. This is my identity. This is who I'll always be. And your identity, it's the same with like, I think it goes back to like, okay, my identity is that I am a woman. Like, it's like my identity is more than that. Like, I am Cameron Fradd. That is who I am. I am a daughter of God. I am your wife,

which is such a gift, right? I'm the mother of our amazing, beautiful children. Like, there's so much more to me than one thing. Yeah. Yeah. Um, what have you found to be some helpful resources that people could easily turn to? Are there any podcasts you've listened to about chronic pain? There's a handful. Yeah.

Um, I don't know any of their names. Last night I was kind of looking at a bunch of them. Um, I feel like, I feel like I go through times of not doing any research and then overly researching, which is also hard. It's like, where's the balance? Like some people say you shouldn't do that at all. Like I've done some programs where it's like, I am a healthy, strong, powerful woman. And you say that to yourself every day and you're like, okay, but I'm kind of lying to myself.

So, yeah. What about how important is it to have things to look forward to? I think very, you know, not spiritual things. I don't mean that. I just mean concrete things that you enjoy in life. Yeah. Yeah. I think that you need to, I think you need to still live your life.

Like you need to go on trips. You need it may be hard and you may get sick, but it that you need to. I think you need to still live your life. Like you need to go on trips. You need, it may be hard and you may get sick, but it's worth the risk. I think that there is, like sometimes, like I'll just not be having the greatest day. And it's like, okay, but there's this thing downtown. I'm like, I'd rather go. I don't wanna sit.

And I'm extremely extroverted. So I think it's easier for me to be like, no, I want to go out. So I could only imagine what it's like for introverts. I think that that was introverts. I think that would be a lot harder. Um, cause it's easier just to fall into the backgrounds and shadows and like, it's just too hard, but like keep putting yourself out there, uh, keep living your life and having like on a good day, we do go for a walk around the block, you know, like, yeah. Yeah. Like it's a short little walk. Like I look forward to walking to the park and then through the cemetery and

then back home. Like how, how many miles do you think that is a mile? The one I do. Yeah. Three. Okay. Three, two or three. So I used to be able to do that. Yeah. I look forward to being able to do that again. Yeah. I can't right now, but I look forward to being able to do that again. Yeah. I can't right now, but I look forward. I think I will get healed enough that I can do that. If you knew right now that you were never going to get any better, what would that do to you? Like, what does that feel like when I just say that, like, this is it. You're actually not going to get better.

You might be able to maintain some semblance of. it, you're actually not going to get better. You might be able to maintain some semblance of. Yeah. I think having a positive, like saying, still telling myself I can do it is huge. I need that mental. I need that hope without hope. There's euthanasia. Like, I think that if you focus on the burden that you are to all those around you,

and that you're always going to be suffering, if you don't believe in redemptive suffering, then it's all hopeless. So I think you have to have faith. You have to lean on God. And you have, and I don't mean to be preachy. I feel like I'm, I'm coming. I'm not a preachy person. I feel like I'm almost coming off as preachy. But I think when you are in pain and you are dealing with sickness, yes, these are things that I'll always have, but there is God's grace in it. And there's got to be hope. Like, I don't know, I think about the endometriosis. Like when I was 19, 20 years old, it's like, you probably won't be able to have kids. Like it's really bad. Like your female stuff, super

messed up. And it's like, okay, well by God's to have kids. Like it's really bad. Like your female stuff, super messed up. And it's like, okay, well by God's grace. Like, so that was our priority when we got married. It's like, we'll figure out getting jobs and things like that. Let's just get pregnant. Like that's what we wanna do. We wanna have a family.

And it was only because of Napro technology, like praise God that we did use Creighton and that I did find out about. And then even when I got really sick and lost the last couple of babies and unfortunately had to have a hysterectomy, like the man that did the hysterectomy specialized in endometriosis and he's like you shouldn't have carried a baby to term. Like stuff's so messed up in here. Like I don't know. What the hell is going on in here? He said it was like spider webs.

He said it was like everything was spider webs. And then the baby that I lost to save my life, because if they had done the normal procedure, the robotics, they go in through the belly button. And my uterus, my bladder, my ovaries, and part of my intestines were all superglued to my C-section scar. It was all like keloid. And so he's like, if they had gone in, they would have cut through a bunch of stuff. But they didn't. That's the good news. But I think like, yeah, like if you focus on that, if you focus on like, wait a minute, now we have a doctor here saying you shouldn't be able to carry any babies to term. And you had a doctor here saying it's going to be extremely

hard for you to conceive. Yeah. Like there's no hope. Look at our kids. We have kids. They're great. Terrific. I really am a big fan. Yeah. They're awesome. Yeah. But if we didn't have hope in that, then we're just gonna. It was fun practicing. It's right? Yeah. It's a big part of it, yeah. Yeah.

No, yeah. Praise God. Yeah, I think there is... Yeah, like being... And I know not everyone's optimistic. I think that that... But I think that's huge. I think if you can find a way to... of cut you off, no, no, no. See the glass is half full. You can do so much more with that.

Sure. But how the hell do you do that? Like that's the question I think someone's going to have. They listen to this like terrific. Good for you. You know how to offer this up. That's great. How the hell do I do that? I have to do it. Is there a switch or flick the switch? I don't know how. I know. I know. And that's really hard. I've had a lifetime of practice and you get better at it. The more you do it, like the more you're sick, the more. And that's why I think like when we've left for, and I know you could see this too, like we've gone, so I'm really bad in the cold. Um, and we've gone to a warm place like Florida and we're in the sun and the beach. I do very well at the beach. It like heals me inside and out.

We live at the beach cause Steubenville isn't there. Yeah. Um, but it heals me inside and out and I do so much better and I look better and I can move and I can walk on the beach and I can go swimming and then we come back and it's so hard because I think I get a little taste of being pain free or at least very bearable, like minimum pain. And it's like, I almost forget what it's like. And then I come back to the cold and the wet and like everything like kind of goes rusty on me. I'm like the Tin Man, right? And it's so much harder. And I feel like that's when I snap at the kids. That's when I snap at you because I don't have, I don't have my mind around the pain. Does that make sense? You don't have your mind around a while, I don't know,

it's like easier to live with it, to live with it. Where when you take it away and then it comes back, it's harder. So I feel like if you're always, I don't know. And I think knowing that, and I feel like I have gotten to the point, I'm like, I'm so sorry, everyone. I'm just in so much pain. I love you. It's not your fault. I just, mom needs space. Like, and just verbalizing that too, because I definitely have had moments where like I lose it and it's like, I'm sorry. I just, everything hurts. It's not your fault. It's my body. You don't lose it much. But I do lose it.

Yeah, you do sometimes, but not much. But that's why you don't have as much practice, right? Yeah, I lose it way more than you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I feel bad for saying be positive because I know when you're in despair, it's so hard. And I think that in some ways I was blessed early in life. Like I hit my rock bottom and junior high and my despair and my depression. And what you're not saying is be in a better mood. What you're saying is you need to actively choose. Yes. Even though it feels insane.

Yeah. Like the wrong choice or like an insincere choice. Yeah. You have to choose. Yeah. To be hopeful. Yes. And it's like baby steps. It's so the first thing is just saying like, Lord, thank you for this pain in my arm. I am living. I have a body. It hurts and it's broken, but thank you that I have it. Right. And it's like, that's a baby step, but it's a step in the right direction. How important was that gratitude journal that you tell me about that?

Yeah. So I, um, so I'm normally more optimistic. Um, our fourth child was, um, a NICU baby. He almost died. Um, he was crazy sick, always in and out of hospital. And, um, I just felt like a failure as a mom. I didn't sleep. I was up all the time doing the math, figuring out, getting enough calories in him, dealing with him, vomiting the feeding tube, all that stuff. And then once he started getting better, I plummeted. I had postpartum depression, horribly bad, you know,

I remember you saying, I just want my wife back. And I remember thinking, sure that wasn't very hopeful. Sorry. No, it wasn't. But I remember thinking, yeah, no joke. Like you want your wife back, I want my life back. Like I want me back. Me prior to this was awesome. I thought she sucked at the time, but now, being where I am now is Debbie Downer.

She was awesome. Like I want her back. Like I don't know how to do that. And I had beautiful friends that just loved me in it. And they're like, we know who you are. I'm like, I don't even know who I am anymore. Like I don't like, I just want the whole world to go away and not want or need anything from me. And I had four small children who needed a lot from me and a husband who traveled a lot. I felt so alone and I felt like there was this big dark cloud with lightning and rain coming down on me.

And I remember calling a friend of mine and telling her, I'm not depressed, but I think Matt thinks I'm depressed. And I told her how I felt. And she's like, okay, Cameron, I want you to call your doctor and tell him that you need postpartum medicine. I'm like, right, but I'm not depressed. She's like, yeah, no worries, Cameron, totally not depressed, but just tell him that and he'll give you some medicine and let's see how you feel.

As soon as I started that medicine, it was like the cloud lifted. It didn't go away, but it lifted and I could take a deep breath. You know, I could take a deep breath and it kind of bought me time. Um, but I saw the world through dark lenses and everything was sad and dark. And a good friend of mine encouraged me to do a gratitude journal. She's like, you have so much to be thankful for. Like, what are you thankful for? I'm like, nothing. Life sucks. And I was in despair and I hated everything.

And I just felt like a failure. Like, I failed you. I failed the kids. I hated everything and I just felt like a failure. Like I failed you, I failed the kids, I failed everything. I messed up. And I just wrote down, I thought of one good thing. And honestly, some days it was, I like my robe. It's fluffy. That's what I was grateful for. Cause I couldn't see past this. I couldn't see past the baby on the feeding tube. The kids wanted me to play with them and do all this stuff with them and running around and being crazy. And I'm like, you need to be quiet cause I need to do the feeding tube thing. And I need to, you know, trying to juggle all the things and the people that I think wanted to help

me but did a horrible job of helping me like made everything worse. So little things like I'm thankful that there's modern medicine and he can have a feeding tube. I'm thankful that I can't see his ribs as much. I'm thankful I have a fluffy robe. I'm thankful Matt's home. I'm thankful that my kids in his room screaming because he has a healthy set of lungs, you know, like whatever it is, like finding little things.

And then it's like, I'm thankful for that flower. That's a beautiful flower. And slowly I feel like my head came above water. And I think it was also God's grace. Like we happened to go on that retreat. I think it was probably like a year, so I think I had maybe a year of being on postpartum medication and I forgot it when we went on that retreat with Monsignor Essif. I can never say his name. But I remember being there and I just

felt like the Lord was healing me. Like, yes, I needed medical help, but I also felt like the Lord was giving me a grace and healing me there. And I remember him coming up to me and I had Peter strapped to me. I think, was he still on a feeding tube at the time? I don't remember. No, I don't think he was, but a little baby, right? And I was just praying and just trying to give it over. It was a very small, intimate retreat, right? And he came over to me and he said, intimate retreat, right? And, uh, and he came over to me and he said, um, you are very, and he spotted eyes. He locked eyes. He's like, what 90, I felt like he was like 90 older gentlemen, locked eyes and moving very slowly towards me. And I'm like, well, this

is a very intimate encounter. So I'm just looking at him feeling like he could see into me like John Paul too. You still look at me like that. Like there's a crowd of a million people, but he saw me and that's how he was looking at me. And I felt very naked and vulnerable. And he's like, you are a very beautiful mother. And I was like, thank you. And he's like, are you very good about getting out of God's way and letting him work in and through you? Like, no, no, I am really bad at that. Actually, I am so hard headed and I'm like, no, no, I am really bad at that actually. I am so hard headed and I'm always, he's like, that's not what I see. I see our lady all around you and she is just mothering you as you mother that baby. And I felt this healing

happening inside. And then later I met with him for spiritual direction and the same thing happened, right? And he's like, he's like, you think the Lord has used you and is using you in spite of your brokenness and your weakness and your flaws. And I'm like, yeah, yeah. Isn't that amazing? God is so good. He's like, no. I'm like, oh, no, no. Sorry, what? And he's like, no, Cameron, it's precisely because of your wounds and your brokenness. Every cut, every bruise, every depression, every negative thing, whether you've done it to yourself or someone else has done it to you, all those inflicted wounds on your heart, Christ shines and radiates through them like nothing else, like refining fire, right? Like the Lord

doesn't use you even though you're flawed and messed up. Exactly where you're broken, flawed, and messed up, that's where he wants to shine and heal others. And it's hard to be like, here's my broken, ugly, bruised, hurt self. Like we want to be like look I have it all together Look at me with my Instagram following and my perfect house and my perfect family and that doesn't help anyone That makes these people feel like shit You know like that's part of why I started among the lilies. I'm like these people there's great podcasts now, but back then there weren't any It's like we any any they all sucked. No, that's not true. Your podcast was amazing. You were awesome for me. But I mean, as far as women go, like I felt like

women are like, we're going to be real. Sometimes I'm a bad mom and I didn't sweep the floor. And I was like, I'm going to punch her in the face. Like, this is ridiculous. People have real life problems. I'm drowning in depression and like I'm drowning with my three children. And then I had a sick baby on top of that. I am failing in every aspect of my life. And for some reason, I felt like I should say that through a microphone. You felt you were, you weren't, but you felt you were. Yeah, I definitely felt like I was. Yeah.

And I, I do feel like the Lord called me to say that from the rooftop. Like I think, I don't know why people do this, but it's like Chris and Lena Everett is up there on that pedestal. Leah Darrow's on that one. I don't know if sister Miriam's up there. She probably is, but I feel like especially wives, like we're up there. Kimberly Hawn's up there, she probably is, but I feel like especially wives, like we're up there. Kimberly Hawn's up there, and they're perfect and amazing, they have it all together, and I am a failure, and I can't be where they are.

I was like, they're not up there. Like they're here with you in the muck. If anything, they're getting more crap on them, you know? And I feel like we need to talk about that. And I feel like chronic pain is one of those things. Like having a hysterectomy, I had real life friends who didn't tell me they had medical issues and had to go through this because they felt like sinners and flawed human beings. Like, like it's hard. I didn't want this. And then what's worse is people say, like the the world says greatest gift you ever gave yourself a hysterectomy

It's like I'm not applauding this. I don't want this. This is a sick organ That I desperately want to be healthy and to have more children and to bear life I love this about my body, but it's broken and it needs to come out But I am no less of a woman because I don't have a womb. That doesn't mean that guy over there can be a woman. I'm so much more than a womb and a couple of chromosomes, right? But yeah, I think there's something to it about, yeah, I'm not less of a person because of my sickness. I'm more of who I am and the Lord is making me who He wants me to be, which is good and capable, but most days I feel flawed and broken and sick.

Yeah. Thank you. You're the coolest person I know. I really like you. All right. We can wrap up unless you have anything else to say. No, I want I want you to talk to that. Oh, I just love you. Tell me about that. You're so great. About what? Tell me about having a sick wife. I am sorry for the times that I haven't. Ha, give me a second here.

And I'm sure. Damn it, Cameron. It's OK. We don't even need to air this part. I just want to hear it. I want to be in this moment. Let me just try to say it. I'm sorry for the times that I haven't seen you. And I've just seen like.

Maybe who I who I needed you to be or who you were when we got married, and I didn't see all that you were dealing with, you know, I just see. I just saw what I needed you to be or who you were when we got married and I didn't see all that you were dealing with. You know, I just see I just saw what I needed from you and maybe was judging you on that, as opposed to seeing all that was going on within you. I'm so sorry for the times that you felt alone in this sickness and I haven't seen you. Yeah, I'm really sorry and I'm sorry that I'm going to keep doing that, you know. I'm really sorry and I'm sorry that I'm going to keep doing that. You know, I really like you. Like you are my favorite person and I'm so grateful that you're the mother to my kids. Thank you.

And I'm sorry that I hide it. I don't I don't come out and say I need you in this way. You're very good about when you need me. You verbalize it like you bring a wound to me and you're like, I need you in this. And I'm sorry that I don't do that as much. I hide it and I'm like, I've got this, I've got this. And I may like interiorly fight with it with God. But half the time I don't even know I'm doing it. And I'm not as good at saying, like, here it is. I don't know how I joke that like that part of my brain of like how my heart's doing. I don't know. I don't think about this is what's going on

and I don't show it to you, but it's like sometimes it just comes out and I love you and thank you for loving me and my sickness and all my flaws And I'm sorry that I'm not, I don't know, healthy and strong. And the woman you married was super healthy. And here's the thing, I think I thought I was healthy. Like I've always thought of myself as a very healthy person. I was holding you throwing up in the bathroom a lot when we were engaged.

Yeah, but I thought I was healthy. On the days that I wasn't that sick. I'm like, I can conquer the world. I'm a captain of the wrestling. You are conquering the world. I think like any like conversions that come about through this podcast, uh, do in large part to your offering up your suffering. So as I said earlier, I will be serving you drinks in heaven and thank you for being on my podcast.

And how do you want to wrap up? What is your podcast called? I don't know. It's called a mine, the lilies. Thank you. Thank you for having me on. Thank you for having this conversation. I know that we both feel very naked in front of these lights right now and Neil and Thursday,

which makes it even more awkward. Two single guys were like, but I appreciate, I'm glad. I don't want to do this. I don't like talking about it, but I know fruit will come of it. I know that we will be able to articulate things that other people are going through and maybe don't know how to articulate it. And I think that we think just because this person, you know, has a podcast, they have it all together or, um, up on that pedestal. Like we're not, like we are, we are all broken and flawed. And I think that, and I'm trying to get better.

And, and I think, like, I'm always asking, okay, is this sickness because I'm not like, what am I not learning here, Lord? Like I know I need to be hit upside the head by a two by four to learn something from him. But I feel like maybe if the first time I got really sick and was hospitalized if I had learned the lesson and Just turned to Jesus every time instead of binge watching the office or whatever other stupid show Downton Abbey our call the midwives Whatever show that I turned you because sometimes I just need a numb and it's so much like I am drowning in the pains too much and the offering it up. I feel like I've done it and I can't go any further. And it's like,

I just need a numb. And so like turning to a episode or a show, I'm like, maybe if I had just kept turning to Jesus and not, um, so anyhow, I, I don't, I don't have the answers, but I think that, um, I appreciate you putting the light on this and just sharing like, here we go. Here's like this whole thing of sickness. And I think a lot of it is like so many ways the healthcare system has failed us and pharmaceuticals have failed us. Like I was a kid that was always put on drugs. Like I had the Ridland Bush in my front yard because I was overdrugged and I didn't want to be on it. And it was only sheer willpower that I like learned to sit still in class.

You said Ritalin Bush because you would spit them into the bush. I would spit all the Ritalin in it. I didn't know there was like a market. I could have sold it and made some money. I didn't know that was a thing. It would have been a really bad thing for you to do. Yeah, so I had a Bush. I just threw them on the Bush, my Ritalin Bush.

But it was, I didn't want, I didn't like who I was. When I was on the drugs, I knew it was too But it was, I didn't like who I was. When I was on the drugs, I knew it was too much. I was over-drugged and I would sit in class like a zombie and I wouldn't answer any questions, but I was well-behaved. I didn't cause any problems for the teachers. But I remember going to recess and just sitting there and watching my friends play and I just was drugged. I couldn't do anything.

And so I was like, I don't want that. I tried to talk to my parents. I tried to talk to my parents I try to talk to my counselor at the time But I didn't like them and I didn't find them helpful. And so I was like, I'm gonna figure it out myself And so from a young age, I'm like, I'm gonna take myself off of it. I like try to do half a pill How are we I? Think I was so I got put on Ridley when I was in first or second grade You're such a badass and I think by by probably third or fourth grade, I had a Ritalin bush.

I started. Six, seven years old, overcoming a drug habit. Good for you. Without the help of your parents. But my parents made me, my mom, like, I think my mom caught on. It was like, I'm watching you take your medicine, take it. And so I like pretend like I'd swallow it and I'd hide it on the roof of my mouth. And then she'd ask me to open my mouth and I'd hide it back here and open my

mouth, show that I took it and then go hide it on the roof of my mouth and then she asked me to open my mouth and I'd hide it back here and open my mouth show that I took it and then go spit it out. And I remember like holding myself still and just being like, okay, you can do this. Don't move or they'll know. They'll know. And like just kind of willpower through like, okay, you got to sit still enough so you don't get criticized. And I think I never fit in. Like I didn't fit in the box, right?

I didn't. And then I also always felt like a failure because I was always sick or always hurt. Like, and then like, why is it always me? Because it always was me, but that's very much an EDS thing. Like you're unaware of your body. So I like accidentally bump into things and dislocate stuff and yeah, but I think it's.

Yeah, you've done that throughout a whole marriage. Right. And now I know why I'm like, oh, it's EDS. That's why I do that. It's not my fault. Yeah. It's my weird diseases. Hey, as we wrap up, I want to give hello a shout out. Sure. And you've already mentioned them. I know you listen to them.

Why don't you do the shout out for me? Why should people consider going to hello dot com slash Matt Fradd? And when they sign up there, they'll get hello for three. Sorry, for free for three months. And so they can decide after that third month whether they want to start. I just love it. I think it's the easiest way to take your prayer life to the next level. So as I said, I mainly listen, I mainly do my prayers in the morning.

I just get really exhausted and I can't do a lot. So I loved hello before when I had like little kids and I could like play it and listen and it's like I could breastfeed and do this and I'm not like fumbling with a book. Um, and then I just love the direction they're going in. Um, there's so many different things. Like I love the healing that Dr Bob and sister Miriam are doing. Jonathan Rumi, I love him and his voice. I feel like he's my Jesus. Like for a while I felt like, like I think different people have- Like Jim Caviezel was your Jesus? Or then there was the beach Jesus?

He was my beach Jesus, maybe was my Jesus for a little bit. Um, but I think everyone like it feels drawn to one, like John Paul too, was like, Jesus. Like for me, for a long time, it was John Paul too. You, you are my Jesus. You are like the eyes and the hands and the feet. And when I think of like him loving me and holding me, especially in my sickness, like you holding me as I'm sick, like you're my Jesus. Well, now Jim Caviezel is also my Jesus. I mean, no, no, no, no, Jonathan Rumi. His voice, I don't know, just the way, like, I just, when he talks, it challenges me to pray.

And I love him and, not Tim Staples, what's the other one's name? I always get them, Jeff Cavins. They would do something together. And I felt bad, but I always felt bad when it was Jeff Cavins. I was like, oh, I wanted him to be Jonathan. Because I don't know, something about his voice. And then like, he does Jesus' voice and it's like straight to my heart. Yeah.

And I love that they're doing these challenges. My daughter and I did. We're going to go to Lusie and I probably said that wrong. No, Lusie. I don't know. It's a French name. Yeah. I apologize.

They should apologize for having such crap language, but they had this this beautiful. Apologize to everybody watching from France. Continue. Yeah. No, they had this beautiful. I think it was in sister who did the voice and the reading and it was just so good. And we went through the soul. Yeah. Story of a soul. And it was amazing and beautiful. And I love the challenges that they do. And there's some that I listen to

and I'm weird about voices. There's certain people I'm like, I can't listen to them. I'm sorry. This isn't going to work for me. This voice isn't working. And I don't know why I judge people by their voice. Everyone's like that. I mean, if you listen to an audio book, like reading to you as you go to bed, like that's nice. That's nice. I mean, it'd be weird if he was like whispering in my phone. I've done you before.

Please stop. When you're out of town, I'll listen to you. Peter was sleeping in my room. This was when you were in Italy and I had you playing a song of songs. I think you do. A song of songs. And he's like, wait, is dad home? I'm like, no, I'm just playing a song of songs. I think you do. Song of songs. And he's like, wait, is dad home?

I'm like, no, I'm just playing him on the phone. Thanks, hello. So hello.com slash Matt Fradd. Sign up there, you get three months free. You can try it. And then after three months, if you want to quit, you don't get charged a cent. But yeah, both of us use it.

I think it's really good in there. So I have my Catholic lo-fi on there. So that's good. Yeah. All right, ladies and gentlemen, Cameron, you're a beautiful woman. Thank you kindly for being on the show. Thank you, honey.