Pints With Aquinas - Mother Iliana "The Light of His Eyes"

Episode Date: October 4, 2023

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Three. Mother Ileana. Hello. Hello. Nice to have you on with on the show. It's nice to be here. Yeah. So you are from Christ the Bridegroom

Monastery with Mother Natalia, who we've had on the show before. Thanks so much for being here. Yes, I'm one of her sisters. One of her sisters, not one of her mothers. We're sisters in Christ. I like it.

And you've just written this book, Light of His Eyes, which can be bought from Sophia Institute press It's tough. Well, thanks for being here. How long you been a nun for? Just about nine years. I'm getting to my ninth anniversary soon. When was your final profession or your life profession December 8th 2018 Okay, very good. Were you always a Byzantine Catholic? Yes, actually my dad's a Ukrainian Catholic priest so I grew up in the Byzantine Church. Whereabouts? My home

parish growing up was in Silver Spring Maryland Holy Trinity. Now he's in Trenton, New Jersey at St. Joseph's Parish. And if somebody had told you when you were 15 that one day you'd be a nun, how would have you responded? That's such a great question. I don't know how I would have responded. I probably would have laughed. I remember once one of the Dominican brothers at the Dominican House of Studies across the street from CUA had invited me to a vocations fair. So I was already in college and he, no it

wasn't even a vocations fair, it was a vocations talk. He invited me and he said, would you like to come? And I laughed and I said, I don't have a vocation. And he said, there's free pizza. And so I came for the pizza and I left with a vocation. How, how so? During that time you actually felt I like some people that I'm a nun because of pizza And the Dominicans and the Dominicans it's a little bit of a longer story The reason I wasn't sure at 15 how I would have answered because I didn't really have a sense that had a religious Religious vocation then but I was utterly obsessed with Mother Teresa and I watched this documentary about her life constantly and my heart just burned completely. And then by the time I was 18, I was getting ready to go to college, I noticed that everyone comes to church and then leaves.

And I would soon have to be one of those people. And I was used to living at church, and I didn't like that, so I was kind of unsettled by it. But none of that sort of translated into, and you're going to be a nun. So when I'm in college and this Dominican asks me to the vocations talk, I just laughed. I don't have a vocation. So when did, when were you in love with Mother Teresa and following the work of the missionaries of charity when you were younger than that? Since I was very, very little. I were younger than that? Mm-hmm since I was very very little I think the documentary that I watched came out when I was about five or six years old and My mom told me later that when she saw me watching it

She saw this look in my eyes and she knew then that I would be a nun, but apparently I didn't know So when you said that you left with a vocation was there something about that? Yeah, it was really beautiful So he asked me for the talk. I said I didn left with a vocation, was there something about that? Yeah, it was really beautiful. So he asked me for the talk, I said I didn't have a vocation, he said there's free pizza, and I'm like this starving college student who's eating a bean taco for 89 cents every day in the cafeteria, and I'm thinking pizza sounds really nice. Like an upgrade, yeah. And I'm picturing like an auditorium with lots of people and a nice talk, and I can

sit in the back, eat pizza, hear a nice talk and leave. And I get there and there are two Nashville Dominicans fully habited and four students in a small little room and they're sitting in a circle. Oh, that's it. And the nuns say, can you just all share why you're here and kind of why you want to be a nun? And I'm sitting there panicking and seriously contemplating lying to the nun because I feel like a complete imposter because I don't want to be a nun. But mercifully the others did and so they talked and talked

and talked and by the time they got to me, the sisters apologized and said, really sorry, but we have to move on with our presentation. And so they started this slideshow and they showed this picture of a sister receiving her habit. So she's like kneeling in front of her superior. She has her hands on her habit and I didn't know anything about nuns. And so I thought that's her like life profession. Like that's her marriage. I somehow saw it as this marriage. I was like she's marrying Jesus

like forever. That's beautiful. Just hit me. Like, wow. Just hit me right then and there, how beautiful it was that she was just gonna belong to God in that special and intimate way forever. And so I had noticed on the campus,

there were three groups of girls, the ones that knew they were gonna be nuns and were really happy about it, the ones who knew they were gonna be nuns and were really happy about it, the ones who knew they were gonna be married and were really happy about it, and then the ones who didn't know and were in complete anguish. And I was in the married group

because I was gonna get married to have 12 kids, and so I was really happy, and then I left that talk in the anguished group because I felt like something really beautiful stirring in my heart, but I didn't know what it meant. Or what that was like. Did you say you were planning

on being married with 12 kids? Yes, that's what I had hoped for. It's funny you say that because my beautiful daughter, Kiara, who has talked about babies ever since she was young, I remember laying in bed with her one night and she said, when I get married, I'm gonna have six kids, or maybe 12 kids, maybe 14 kids, this is what she talks about constantly.

So that's beautiful to know, right? So you didn't become a nun because you didn't want to become a wife and have children Yeah, I wanted to have 12 kids and I was already like from earliest childhood fulfilling that role I took care of my dolls very well. I fed them. I changed their diapers. I put them to bed They were always with me and when my brother was born, he was a real living, breathing, pooping doll, so I was thrilled. So I took care of him and never left his side. And I just always wanted to have a lot of kids. So the vocation was a little bit of a surprise for me. It wasn't a surprise to others, and it wasn't a surprise to God, but it was to me. So what did you do after that vocation meeting?

I went to a discernment retreat, because that's what the Anguished Group does. I found that out. And I went to a discernment retreat with the TOR sisters. And I'll never forget Sister Della Marie welcomed me at the front door and she was walking up the front steps and I saw her shoes and what I thought was nobody could be happy wearing those shoes. That's where I was in my discernment. That's great. It's so honest. Yeah.

And then she was telling me how she had gone to nursing school, and I was in nursing school at the time, and she had gone to nursing school and she had left nursing school to enter the sisters, and how providential that was because at that time she was in charge of the food for the sisters. And so she knew about nutrition because she'd learned about it in school and see how God uses everything and I'm thinking but the shoes also you left nursing school to feed nuns like I could not wrap my brain around this and then one of the other sisters asked me just we were talking and she said well tell me a little bit about yourself and I said, I was gonna get married and have 12 kids.

And she very seriously said, you're gonna be a spiritual mother. And I'm thinking, I was thinking like actual kids. It's getting hot in here. But yeah, so I was very early in my discernment to even be going on a discernment retreat, but God really spoke to me very powerfully during that retreat. You're going to be a spiritual mother, not like maybe the Lord is calling you.

But it was a very bold statement. Now that I think about it, I was like, wow, that must have just been the Holy Spirit. But yeah, it was a very bold statement for her to make. And what are your parents thinking as you're now? My dad is not a man of very many words, but I remember his eyes were pretty sparkly. I think he was fine with it. My mom was very not fine with it.

She wanted grandchildren. Yeah, she wanted grandchildren. She wanted me to be married. She wanted everything a mom wants for her daughter. And this is a very unusual thing. So it's not what she hoped and dreamed. But she's definitely gotten used to it and now she really sees me in my vocation. And I once wrote a letter to my parents

that they misunderstood and they thought I was saying I was leaving. It's not what I was saying, but that's what they thought. And they kind of panicked like, no, no, you shouldn't leave. So whatever, you shouldn't leave what the monastery. So it was like kind of beautiful for me to see that like they see that that's where I belong where that's where God wants me to be. Yeah. All right. So then how did you go from because I've had people say to me that when they discern different religious orders, they've said to me that they'll try out a different few places. And once they enter the one that they ended up in, they felt at home. I don't know if that was your experience, but how many different religious orders

did you discern with or stay with? That's a great question. So I discerned for 12 years before I entered the monastery. So there were lots of ups and downs and lots of crazy twists. I seriously discerned, I would say, with two communities. And I didn't know this monastery existed. Oh, actually, there's a great story there, because after 12 years of discernment,

it's a lot of trust in God that he's taking care of me, and he has a place for me. And I spent a lot of time, my uncle is a bishop, he was in Europe most of my childhood and adult life, but I would Skype with him and he'd give me discernment tips and say, well, I'll get you in touch with this nun or that nun. And I went to Ukraine since I was Ukrainian Catholic, I went to Ukraine and visited a bunch of communities he took me to, all sorts of beautiful sisters in Ukraine.

And it was just like, I was so happy with all the Roman Catholic communities I visited here, but I just had this ache in my heart. I was like, I grew up in a rectory and I didn't know nuns. Like we need this for our people too. And then I went to Ukraine and there were so many beautiful nuns and I had this ache in my heart because it's like,

this is beautiful but we need this for our people here in the US too. And so there was just, I never had that peace or that at home feeling in any of those places even though they were objectively beautiful. And it's a long story how I ended up finding the monastery and deciding to apply there. That's a whole another story. But I remember leaving from that my observorship, like that time of living with the sisters for six weeks.

And I'm just so sure that God has asked me to apply there. And I suddenly just panic because I'm like, I have all this consolation and I know this is what God is asking me to do. But my family doesn't have that. And I'm like, well, if my parents don't approve, like a lot of people experience that, I'll have someone I can talk to. What if my uncle doesn't approve? He's a bishop. Like he's a bishop in the Ukrainian Catholic Church and the monastery is not Ukrainian. Like what am I going to do if the bishop doesn't approve of my vocation?

Like I don't know what to do with that. And so I just started panicking, like actually high blood pressure, anxious. And 48 hours later I sat down with my parents and I told them and they were very calm. Like apparently after six weeks at the monastery they'd figured out that this is what God was calling me to do and after 12 years of this discernment they just they had sort of seen that coming. But prior to you joining the monastery did they hope that you would be an Eastern nun or was that not part of their concern? Oh that's a great question. I think they would have certainly preferred me to be definitely a Ukrainian Catholic nun. My great-grandfather's a priest-martyr in

the Ukrainian Catholic Church. I have a lot of priests and bishops, and my dad's a priest. Like, I just sort of like my home. So it was very difficult actually and kind of strange for me to come out of that, even into another Byzantine church, because it's still different melodies, different language. So I know people often ask me how I gravitated towards the East, because I'm now canonically Ukrainian as well. And I say that it's like leaving your country and going somewhere else that has different culture, and you stay there a long time and it becomes home and Then you come back to where you came from and you appreciate where you came from But it's not home anymore. And that's kind of how I felt as I've kind of gravitated towards the east

So, I mean, how did you feel looking at these Western? Orders knowing that you would have different prayers and yes, what was that? That's a great question. So That my first discernment entry with the TR sisters, I felt at home there, even though it was so different. I was still very early in my discernment. So I was freaking out about the shoes and the spiritual mother thing, but like and leaving nursing, all of that was still very new to me. But I did very much feel like I was in God's house

and I can look back at that and see, that's because that's the heart of my vocation is to be in God's house. So stepping into that was incredibly beautiful for me. But then there were these things that would come up that I had to really wrestle with because I loved it so much there. I wanted to stay.

The TOAs. Mm-hmm. And, but I'm like, as a Byzantine, like born and raised Byzantine, I couldn't imagine catechizing children that they can't receive communion as infants. Like, that's so just part of my heart that I just, that was like really kind of the only obstacle And I think I'd used it because he just had a different plan But that was sort of the only thing and that ache that I spoke about earlier of like but we need this for our people Too like these sisters are beautiful, and I love them, but we need this for our people, too I want to focus on the shoes for a little bit because I don't think it's nearly

as superficial as it might sound. Like I think there is something to those things when a woman is or a man is discerning a vocation. And this comes from my own experience. I remember feeling very drawn to the Franciscans, but I felt embarrassed that the reason I felt drawn to them is because they look cool and And I could see myself wearing that habit. And like, it just seemed to me like this radical giving yourself over to the Lord entirely. And you know, not just in your vocation, but even in how you dress, you know, and I remember speaking to a Capuchin bishop who not even knowing that about me said, don't be afraid if the reason you feel called to the Capuchins is because of the habit.

He says when you're first when a man is first attracted to a woman or vice versa, they're attracted usually for what could be considered superficial reasons. And obviously you don't want to stay there. You want it to deepen but to not be afraid of that. And I think that's really good advice. So there's probably like there's something about those shoes. Yeah. Well, for me, it was like, ah, I can't imagine be happy.

Yeah, but I think I understand why. But tell me why. They look like they look like grandma shoes. And I was in college, a young girl like I, I still wanted to look pretty. Yes. And now I see those shoes and I just like my heart just melts. It's beautiful to me. But at that time, it was, it kind of freaked me out. Yeah, and there's something that's, thanks for sharing that about like being attracted just to the habit itself, because I think there is

something to that, that it is attractive. I remember as a teenager, there being Franciscan Friars who would come to liturgy sometimes, and they'd play soccer with the few kids that are parish after. And I would just sit on the porch and watch. I was enamored by it. There was something beautiful,

probably similar to my love for Mother Teresa and her sisters. There's something beautiful and attractive about that. And not to be afraid of that, but know that when you do enter a community, all that gets purified out. Yes, yes. Yeah, and even in my community,

excuse me, when I was discerning, I didn't like their habit. This particular one? No, and I remember distinctly waking up one morning and praying, well, I don't like what they wear and I don't like what they eat and I don't know how I feel about that. And then I went to Liturgy and the reading that day was, don't worry about what you're gonna eat

What what you're gonna wear what you're gonna drink like? It's the pagans that worry about those things you think first of the kingdom of heaven And so I had actually look at that very seriously Did you not think about visiting the missionaries of charity since you love mother Teresa so much that's That's one that I didn't actually end up visiting, I think, because I didn't interface with any sort of living breathing missionaries of charity. So it was something nebulous out there,

not something right in front of me. And so the sisters that I discerned with were the ones that were right in front of me on my college campus or the ones I'd gotten introduced to because of that. And so, so it was like sort of I was interacting with what was actually right in front of me. And Mother Teresa's nuns to me felt very like far away. It was something nebulous. So I had somebody tell me the missionaries of charity, the Navy Seals of religious orders and that a lot of Western women join but can't can't hack it because

it's pretty brutal. I've been told you're given a sari, a bucket, a rosary, here's the way you'll be sleeping. So it's probably God's will that I didn't discern there because I'm pretty fragile health-wise. I wouldn't have, I can barely handle what I am doing. So it's uh it was providential probably that I did not end up there. So when did you hear about this particular monastery right now? What did you visit other Eastern monasteries first? So I did I visited the ones in Ukraine and I found them all beautiful. I at that point in my life Basically in most of those 12 years of discernment believe it or not hadn't distinguished in my mind The difference between an active religious community and a monastery and what Eastern monasticism is.

So when I visited the Studite nuns in Ukraine, they were beautiful to me. I didn't know they were monastic and that that was different from the sisters of St. Basil or the sister servants of Mary Maculet. And so I was just sort of going on my impressions, not really with the understanding. And then I had gone to a vocations fair in D.C.

and the sisters from my monastery, Christ the Bridegroom, were there because they were in town for the March for Life. But I only talked to Mother Cecilia for a few, maybe a minute or two. And at that point in my life, it's like Ruthenian, what's that? It was foreign to me. So I didn't like automatically feel any kind of attraction to it.

Now for those at home, can you explain what you're talking about here with Ruthenian and Ukrainian? Yeah, so in the Byzantine church, I forget how many Byzantine churches there are. There's Melkites, they're from Lebanon, and Ukrainians are from Ukraine, Romanians, Ruthenians are like that sort of section

in the Carpathian Mountains, which is like Western Ukraine, Slovakia, Hungary, sort of that region. And so the traditions there developed a little bit differently than they would have in Eastern Ukraine. And so I think initially when they came to the US they were joined, but then those differences sort of made themselves more known. And so they ended up having a separation, separate bishops, things like that. So the words of the liturgy would be the same. We would just have

different melodies and different, different language because Ukrainians tend to, although now in the US you can find Ukrainian parishes that have liturgy in English, they would tend to use their melodies and more often than not have liturgy in Ukrainian. Okay, so how did you hear about this Rithynian monster? Okay, so I met at that time, Sister Cecilia and a mutual friend of ours who was a seminarian after they left came up to me and said,

oh, Sister Cecilia was so sorry, she couldn't talk to you longer. Here's her card if you want to call her. And I'm thinking, I don't want to call her, I don't know her. Stuck it in my jeans pocket, moved on with life. And almost a year later, I was in a place in my discernment where I realized I needed to be more wholehearted

in my discernment where I realized I needed to be more wholehearted in my discernment and more willing to think outside the box as a result, to just allow God to move me and not, it has to fit everything. It has to be Ukrainian. It has to be here. It has to have nursing because I'm a nurse. That's the only thing that makes sense to me. Like it has to have all these things. Well, that doesn't exist. So, and that the closest things that did exist, I had no peace with. And so, I was just realizing the Lord was asking me to look beyond that.

And so about a year later, I started looking for that card and I looked and I looked and I looked and I couldn't find it. And I just had this vague memory of there being Byzantine nuns in Ohio. So I went online and I just googled Byzantine nuns, Ohio and I looked and I looked and I couldn't find them I didn't know they were called Christ the Bridegroom Monastery. And so Eventually gave up I went on Facebook and my friend had posted something from Imagine Sisters

And I thought hmm, what's that? I hadn't heard of it so I clicked on it and the first thing that pops up is a picture of sister Cecilia playing volleyball and it says join the team. And I thought, what team? And so I read the comments and oh, her habit is different. Oh, that's because they're Byzantine. Oh, here's their website. And that's how I found them. And then I went on their website and I read their herarium, like their schedule for the day of prayer and work and how that's laid out.

And just something started burning in my heart. And that was sort of the first moment I started being able to see the difference between an active religious community and a monastery. And later I would ask more questions and start to learn that, and learn that I had a monastic vocation and didn't know it. For those who are unfamiliar, can you lay that out real quick?

The difference between monastic orders and I know there's differences in monasticism and active orders. Yes. Well, very abridged. Not telling the whole history of monasticism, but a monastery, especially Eastern monasticism, the monasteries are all basically very similar to each other. It's prayer and hospitality.

You live in community, you pray, and your doors are open, people come and pray with you. And it's sort of like, one of the sisters likes to use the analogy of sort of like the powerhouse of the church. It's this house of prayer. Whereas like one of the orders, like Franciscans or Dominicans, they might go out and teach or preach or nurse or have some kind of like charism outside the community. The Franciscan sisters here, are they TOR?

So I was walking down the street just today and saw a couple of them chatting with a couple of poor folks across the road from our cigar lounge. So beautiful to see that witness in action. It's so beautiful. And since I was a nurse practitioner at this point, I assumed I was called to some kind of active ministry. I had no idea I was called to this more sort of more contemplative. And you say you said your heart started to burn for that. Could you articulate why at the time? No, not at the time. But it was that I think what I was seeing was that everything was about the prayer.

Anything else seemed to flow out of that. Like the schedule seemed to be all about prayer and everything else had to sort of fit in between. And that was making my heart start to burn. And I looked at their website and I was really starting to feel hopeful for the first time in a long time and kind of excited.

And then I saw a picture that they had a cat and I'm definitely allergic to cats. And so I closed the computer and started crying and said, Lord, what are you doing? Because I couldn't at that point, like with a cat, I couldn't even visit them. So it was just not on the table. And, but it was already almost the year, so I thought they'll be at the March for Life.

Maybe I can at least talk to them. I felt certain God wanted me to talk to them, that they would help me in my discernment somehow. And so I looked for them at the March for Life, and I saw the Byzantine sign, but I couldn't get to them because of a sea of Dominicans, ironically, couldn't get to them. And then I thought, that's OK. God really wants this. I'll see them at the metro. They didn't see them at the metro. That's OK. I know God wants this to happen.

I need to talk to them. So I'll see them at the restaurant. I didn't see them at the restaurant. Wow. I really thought God wanted this. So confused. And then a few days later, I really thought God wanted this. I was so confused. And then a few days later, I think it was two or three days later, I went, my brother called and asked if I'd go to liturgy

to the Melkite Church in Virginia. I thought, that sounds interesting. I'd like to do that. So I hopped in the car with him, drove down there. There's a big charter bus in front of the church. And I said, why is there a bus? And he said, I don't know. Maybe pilgrims left over from the March for Life. Walked in,

nuns are in the front row and I got to talk to them because God really did want that. Was Mother Cecilia there? And I talked to, I only actually talked to Mother Cecilia because she's the one I had remembered. Who's one of the most beautiful, welcoming human beings I've ever met. So warm, so gentle. And so she just really encouraged me to still visit. She said, we have a lot of friends, you can pray with us

and just maybe stay with our friends. Long story short, I came, I visited and it's the only cat I've never been allergic to. Are you kidding? And I just had a blood test like nine months ago and I'm still really allergic to cats. I'm actually getting allergy shots now for that, but never had any problem with this cat.

It was like a miracle cat. A friend of ours, Father Patrick, came and visited my first week visiting there and he came in the back door. He didn't say like, hi, what's your name? He's like, how are your allergies? And I said, I don't know. Either these are the best housekeepers in the world or it's a miracle. And he said, it's a miracle. You know it's a miracle. Now I know it is because we're definitely not the best housekeepers in the world. But they wash, they wash the walls for me. Yeah. Mother Natalia washed the walls before I came because she was there visiting right before I visited.

OK, yeah. So how many women were at the monastery when you visited? Who were actually? It was at that time there were... there were... I'm really bad with remembering. Roughly, like is it bigger now than it was then? Yes, now there are seven of us.

So at that point there were either three or four. I can't remember the timeline of when one of them had entered. There were three in Habit. At my first visit there were three. Only three in Habit? Yes. And I'll finish the story about my uncle, the bishop. So I finally, I came back.

I knew I was supposed to apply there. And I'm all anxious about what he's gonna say. And I tell my parents and they're fine. And they say, well, do you want to know what your uncle thinks of all this? I'm not sure. No, I don you want to know what your uncle thinks of all this? I'm not sure. No, I don't want to know. And my mom said, well, he was very astonished when we told him what you're doing

because he says he's been praying for years for you to go to that monastery. But he didn't want to tell you he wanted the Holy Spirit to lead you there and not influence your decision. So he didn't even tell me they existed while I was talking to him on Skype about discernment. He just prayed that I would go there and I not only found them, but had a vocation there and was accepted and entered. It's a complete miracle. I want to say thank you to Hello, which is the best, not just the best Catholic app on the app store, any app store. It's the best app out of any app that's ever existed, Catholic or otherwise. I think it's finally time to say that. If you want to grow in your prayer life, please check out hello.com slash Matt.

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Twelve years is a long time to discern. That's tough. I don't recommend anything. Right. I don't recommend it. It's not the normal way. God had a very particular way with me. So I always hesitate when I give my vocation story to say like, don't use me as a model. I'm not saying you should discern for 12 years. Through those 12 years where you didn't find kind of resolution with any of these

particular orders, did you were you dating? Did you start feeling maybe attracted to marriage? That's a great question. So that was a question I had asked my spiritual father. So, like, at this point, it's been years since I felt the Lord was calling me to religious life. Do I just start dating now? Like, he hasn't opened any doors, He hasn't made anything clear. And that time He had said like, well, it's kind of a mixed bag because He was a form-eater at the time. And He said, I have guys who come here who have wounds because they didn't date and I have guys who come here who had wounds because they did. You'll be wounded either way, choose a path. Yes, exactly, basically.

because they did. You'll be wounded either way, choose a path. Yes, exactly, basically. So I actually, it's interesting because it goes back to the vocation fair story. I went to that vocation fair because someone I really liked called me and asked me to go with him to a vocations fair. Okay. I want to go on a date. So that was irony. It was also very ironic because he was there with me and so I didn't want to seem overly interested in any of the religious communities while I was there because that was just awkward. That's funny. It's kind of like when you walk past those fellows at the mall who are selling you things. You don't want to show any kind of interest or else they'll run after you. Yeah. Literally grab your hand. The guys who buff your nails, they like just grab your hand and start doing it.

But I did know at that discernment retreat with the Tiara sisters, I had such a deep sense that God was calling me to be his own in religious life of some kind that I really didn't date. I had crushes. I went on one date at one point towards the end of that time and then immediately told him after like, I can't lead you on. Like, I'm going to be a nun. I don't know what that looks like. I don't even know what that means. And that was really scary because then I went to Mass and cried because I'm like, this really great guy actually asked me out and I just like turned him down for this thing, this nebulous thing I don't know about. And so, but I just, I had kind of the

unique experience of really being certain that that's what God was calling me to. And so, I sort of tried to keep myself sort of prepared for that. But I can look back on that too and see that it was God protecting me too. He's sort of protecting me from myself in a lot of ways and shielding me in ways. Because He had a plan, like at the time he called me the monastery didn't exist. Like he was preparing a place for me, but I wasn't ready for it. And then after I entered for a couple months, I was pretty mad at myself. It's like, this is so obviously my vocation. Oh really?

Why didn't I do it sooner? Like what was I thinking? It's your bishop's fault. Your uncle. Yeah, he didn't tell me about it. So, I was really upset about that. And then after a while I realized, and thank God, because I wasn't ready. Like monastic life is no joke. Like if you enter the monastery, as it says in Sirach, if you ascribe to serve the Lord, prepare yourself for trials. So I wasn't really ready for that, so that time leading up to it, for me at least, was very formative. And there was a lot that happened to me that prepared me for my vocation and prepared me to stay

in my vocation. So after you visited, how long until you joined? I think my observership period, which was about six weeks, I think it was maybe June or July, and then I entered in December. So, and then there's a trying to tell your coworkers was very interesting. So I was working as a neonatal nurse practitioner at Children's Hospital in Philadelphia.

And I had come on a regular sort of weekend, three day weekend retreat with the sisters. And I left having signed up for that observorship of six weeks. I hadn't expected that. I just, the Lord moved my heart and it was time. And I realized that I would have to quit my job in order to do the discerning part because I couldn't get six weeks of vacation time. And that was very scary. That was a real big leap of faith. learning part because I couldn't get six weeks of vacation time. And that was very scary.

That was a real big leap of faith. And I thought, well, I'll put off telling anyone for a really long time, like until the last second. And as soon as I got home from that, I had an email from my manager that said, put in your schedules for these months. And I'm like, I can't lie to these people. I can't say I'm going to be there and not be there. And so I emailed her back and I said,

can I talk to you after rounds tomorrow? And she replied, sure, as long as it's not to say that you're leaving. And I didn't respond, but I thought I got away with it because it was really late at night. And the next morning at rounds, she whispers to me, you didn't respond, should I be nervous? And I was like, it's not what you think.

I promise you, it's not what you think. I promise you, it's not what you think. And so I had to sit down and tell her, and I just said, I'm not ready to talk to people about this yet, because I'm not leaving to be a nun. I'm leaving to go pray about being a nun. That's really fragile, like inside of me. I'm not ready to talk about that. And she was like, no, don't worry.

It's totally confidential. And then not ready to talk about that. And she's like, no, don't worry, it's totally confidential. And then she had to tell her manager, the manager announced it at the faculty meeting and so not so everyone knew. Like for four months, everybody knew. And so I had a lot of beautiful conversations with my co-workers that I would never have had of my own choosing. Like, God just had to open that door for me. Yeah. So what kind of conversations did you have with those?

Because I presume you had close friends who knew your heart and what you were discerning. Yes, I definitely did. But yes, my very long suffering friends knew about my discernment for all of that time. And actually, the year I entered the monastery, I went to sushi with one of my friends and she goes to, this is the year of the vocation. I feel it. And I'm like, you're wrong.

It's not, I feel no different. And, but she was right. It was the year of the vocation. But yeah, with my coworkers, I didn't talk about my faith and I didn't talk about my faith and I didn't talk about my discernment. I was very quiet and sort of just did my job very diligently. And after the cat was out of the bag and they found out and I had four months to talk to

them about it, I came back in the office for my next shift and one of my coworkers just goes, I knew it, I knew it. I knew it. I knew it. And I said, how could you have possibly known? I never talked about this ever. And she said, because during Lent we give up cookies. Maybe you, you gave up TV. That's when I knew nobody gives up TV. So she somehow knew this is no, this is like when all women at Daily Mass think you must be a priest, because why else would you possibly be at Daily Mass as a young man or seminary? The bar is quite low for people. Yeah. Yeah. But I did. I did have very beautiful conversations.

I remember even one of them was my last conversation leaving the building. I just turned in my badge and I'm walking out the back stairwell and I know I can't get back in, like it's done. And I was so grieved because I hadn't said goodbye to one of the surgeons. And she's just this incredible surgeon. She took such good care of these children.

And I took care of the sickest of the sick. One of the surgeons called it a little shop of horrors. Like these were really sick children and she just cared so deeply about them and when she would do her dressings she didn't just put a dressing on and go away. Like she would cut out a little choo-choo train with little cloud behind it and put it on. Like such delicate care for these kids and I was so sad I hadn't gotten a chance to say goodbye to her. And I bumped into her in this back stairwell. And she was very kind. And she said, there was just something about you that was different.

Like you were praying for the kids and I knew you were doing that. And it mattered, like it made a difference. And I was working in an incredibly secular environment. We didn't talk about prayer ever, but she somehow knew that. And so that was really beautiful. And there were just different coworkers.

One of the things that happened right before I entered the monastery, I had been, I thought I had really like left nursing in my heart because I knew God was calling me to this vocation and I knew I had left, like I really thought that I had done that prayer part of it, that I had left that behind. And right before I entered, I had been on a pilgrimage to France with a friend of mine and we were either staying with my uncle and so everything was in Ukrainian or everything was in French so we just there was very little understanding of anything happening at liturgy especially for my friend and so before we left I knew we were gonna have liturgy in the next morning in Ukrainian so I just flipped through to find the readings so

that at least she could follow along for the readings and I was slipping through through, I was going to put my bookmark in, go to bed. And it was, I was just sort of drawn into it. And it was Jesus with Peter in the boat after the miraculous catch of fish. And Peter says, depart from me for I am a sinful man. And I heard in my heart in that moment, do not be afraid from now on, it's souls you'll be nursing. Because Jesus says to Peter, from now on it's people you'll be catching. And I heard from now on it's souls you'll be nursing. And I was just like really blown away by that. And I've had to like really think about that a lot. Like that's something that has kept me in my vocation a lot.

And I was still working, I had to quit my job, but I was able to work per diem. So I had a few shifts, I think, like three or four more shifts before I permanently left, before entering the monastery. And I would share that sometimes with the nurses. And like, I wasn't having deep, profound conversations with these people before. And this just, they were so curious about what it was that I was doing. It opened the door to these types of conversations. And I would share that with them, and they would cry. And it was just like so beautiful, because that's something that a nurse can just relate to so intimately.

And so yeah, God had his own plan. I was like, don't tell anyone. And he was like, let's just tell the world. And now you're going to talk about me. And you've never done that before. Now go. So you talk about prepare yourself for an ordeal. So once after the observorship happened and you,

I don't know what happens then after the observorship, you both agree. So you have to apply and you have to be accepted. You have to fill out an application and do your psyche valve and your physical and all of that stuff. And if you're accepted, then you'd get a letter with an entrance date. And so I was absolutely not convinced I was going there until I had my letter in my hands. And so I waited for that letter and then that made it real. I just didn't, I never presumed like nothing,, even though it was a really good fit and it felt like this was what God was calling me to do.

There was a lot of confirmation. I just didn't presume until I had the letter from the superior that says, you've been accepted and you're entering. What was that like receiving that? I remember where I was. I was, I remember exactly where I was because I think she had faxed it and it hadn't worked and so she ended up emailing it to me. So I had it on the phone. And so I was very close to an Adoration chapel. So I like parked the car, I go to Adoration, I saw a very good friend of mine who was a good prayer warrior for me and so I told her immediately and went and I prayed like, it was just very overwhelming because it was I had this sense that I was getting like washed up on the shores of God's heart.

Like, and this is finally after 12 years, like this is finally just happening. And now I can look back and say, like, no, I was in his heart the whole time. But there was just something very, very pal palpable of walking into the reality of your vocation and living in that intimacy more more palpably. So I'm sure it's like marriage you know you get extremely excited for all sorts of reasons you get married and it's terrific and then at some point the shine wears off and the reality hits and then you either leave or you go deeper You go deeper. It gets more beautiful, but it's in a very different way. I

Presume it's similar. When did the shine wear off? Well, God was merciful to me. He gave me kind of a heads up So when I was there for six weeks the first four weeks were like all of that excitement sparkles. Were you shocked at how much you had to pray daily? Was that difficult? Yeah, actually it was part of my discernment. In theory it sounds great. And you're like, again? And here's one thing I know about the Eastern Church. Anyone who's been to a liturgy for more than once is whenever they say, let us conclude our prayer, they're lying.

It hasn't even gotten to the staple yet. It's barely started. If in your booklet it's not even the halfway staple yet. It's not even in the staple yet. Exactly. Yes, let us complete our evening prayer to Lord. Eventually. Yeah. They forgot the eventually part. Yeah, so there's a lot of praying. I was accustomed to a lot of liturgical praying. It was still an adjustment for me because I was more like daily mass, two hours at adoration, on my days off, like very quiet.

And entering the monastery, you think it's gonna be even more quiet and you discover it's people and noise constantly. And I laugh about this a lot. I go on a retreat and I'll bump into someone, hello sister, where are you from? Why do you have to go on a retreat and I'll bump into someone hello sister where are you from why do you have to go on retreat you live in a monastery like this have you seen these women crazy I need to get out they talk all the time and when you're not talking with your mouth you're

talking with your body I get my step goal just by living I don't have to walk so yeah so it's not as quiet as you think it'll be. If you're like, wanna be like St. Therese, living in like solitude and contemplation all the time. And you- Don't join our monastery. Yeah, I can't remember which saint it was who could see the demons,

but he went with one of his brothers to a brothel to go evangelize. And they only found two demons there. So they're like, we're wasting our time. Like so they go back to the monastery and the monastery is surrounded by demons. That reminds me of a conversation I had with one of the monks in Wyoming,

the Romanian Catholic monastery there. And he said, you know, you want to see how boys sin go to Vegas. You want to see how men sin come to a monastery. It's a real sin. Yeah. The pride, the vanity. It's the it's where the devil is going to. What men sin come to a monastery? It's a real sin. Yeah, the pride, the vanity. It's where the devil's gonna, what is he gonna want? What does any soldier want to do? He wants to get to the jugular.

He wants to get to the heart, right? And the devil is just like Ignatius calls him a master criminal commander. Like he's gonna want to go for the jugular. So he wants to take out the monks because they're the ones praying for the church. And so they're the heart of the church. So there's a lot of spiritual warfare.

So in addition to the conversations between prayer, just the rigor, I mean, let people know what that's like if they're not familiar. Well, it's how often, how many hours are you standing and praying a day? How we calculate this from time to time, I can never remember. I think it's four and a half hours of liturgy. No, it's three and a half hours of liturgical prayer plus our private prayer, which you don't have to stand for. So four and a half hours of prayer at least.

But then of course, St. Paul tells us to pray without ceasing. To his dad. And then it also depends on the season. So theophany, I think we added it up once. It might be seven and a half hours of liturgical prayer. I don't remember exactly, it was a lot. Your back hurts a lot.

Your lower back hurts a lot. You turn in your grandma pretty quick. Oh my lower back. But yeah, it's a lot. But the liturgical prayer, but it's, the liturgical prayer can, if it's really your vocation, that can really be beautiful and can really draw you in. I think it's the stuff that surrounds that that's harder.

Like what? The, like my spiritual father calls your vocation sort of like a rock tumbler. And so you put a bunch of jagged rocks in it and you tumble it around and all the jagged edges hit each other and you get these smooth rocks. But that's just like in marriage too. But also in the monastery.

I will often say like our wounds are rubbing up against each other. You know what I mean? So it's like our defenses hit each other. Yeah, and you don't know what the other person's wound is. So you could be triggering them every day and not even know it. Sometimes they don't even know what their trigger is

and that's part of the process, isn't it? Yeah, and this is something, my retreat this year was about humility. And I just realized like, I hurt my sisters all the time by the things I say and do, but I don't really know because they don't tell me, because I'm really sensitive. So they probably don't want to hurt me. But that's not actually good for me.

Like if I had the humility to receive that, I could really like stretch and grow. So it's like actually good for me. Like, if I had the humility to receive that, I could really like stretch and grow. So it's like really convicted of that. Like, actually, the heart of the matter is to be humble enough to receive that so that you can grow. So when you have insights like that, how or do you even bring it to your fellow sisters? Well, I just told mother Natalia because she's sitting over there.

Usually like, probably something like that I would share if we had something like a share group or we're just sitting talking about our prayer life. Sometimes we'll talk about those kinds of things just at dinner, if it's just us, just sort of share some of the fruits or insights from your retreat. Sometimes you write a book. That happened. So a lot of what's in the book is just sort of trying to live monastic life and these things happen and you have to sit and pray about them.

Tell me how you got the impetus for this book because one of the things you say in the book is that you, I think you said, grew correct me if I'm wrong sick of spiritual reading yes I was reading I was I don't know if people know what pustinia is but Catherine Doherty wrote a book called pustinia so some people are familiar that pustinia just means desert and so the nuns go into the pustinia once a month for this like real solitude and quiet time in the desert. So I was doing that. I was in pustenya and I was reading Catherine Doherty's book Pustenya and it was amazing and I literally threw it onto the ground and I shouted, I don't want to read about you

anymore. I want you. Like I just keep reading and reading and reading trying to find him and I don't want to do that anymore. I just want him. I don't want what's written about him. Like, I just keep reading and reading and reading trying to find him, and I don't want to do that anymore. I just want him. I don't want what's written about him. And so I did that, and I sat quietly for a while, and I realized, but he has revealed himself to me in so many ways in the quiet of my heart. And he realized that he'd done that

in so many very specific ways, surrounding particularly the father's love for his children, that right then, sitting there, I thought of nine chapters for a book. And I started writing them down. And I was like, this is ridiculous, because I don't have words. Like, this is really weird. I've never wanted to write a book I paint so though it's very ironic that my first book would have tons of pictures in it because I grew up looking at pictures not reading books as somebody who's written several books

I know that a publisher can make or break it in some sense They choose the front cover often they choose the direction of it. This is really beautifully put together I love how they did such a good job. Yeah. And all of these icons, you say these are these are ones you've painted. They're really beautiful. Yeah. So I just I I love art. I'm very right brained.

I was never into reading books. I really just wanted to go to art class. That was the only thing I liked in school was art class and recess. I just didn't want his words. So just like when I realized that he was asking me to write a book, I was like classic Moses. Nope, I got a speech impediment, not doing it. Just to pick someone else. And then I realized that he wasn't asking for my ability. He was asking for my consent. Had you ever considered writing a book before?

Never on any topic, let alone God. I'm not a theologian, I'm literally a nurse. That's my training. Now I went to Catholic U for my undergrad, so I took some philosophy classes, but most of my classes were science nursing classes. So it was like, why would he ever ask me of all people to write a book about God? This was so strange to me, but it was like, why would I, why would he ever ask me of all people to write a book about God?

Like, this was so strange to me. But it was very clear. And so I listened, I wrote it down, and then I hid it in my closet for a very long time. 12 years. I think it was actually one of those readings where like you don't like bury your talent thing, where it's a little bit of a wake up call,

gave it to my spiritual father, and he asked me if I would publish it. No. Very vulnerable to write a book about the things you're praying about, about your struggles and wounds. And so, and then I switched spiritual fathers and gave it to him. Surely he's going to shut that down. He said,

I hope he didn't switch so that the new one. No, no. It was complete, complete, just circumstance, a different circumstance. So, and he also encouraged me to publish it. And so I have them to thank for that. And then the reason, one of the main reasons I hesitated is I was very sure God asked me to write it, but he hadn't told me what to do with it.

And I was pretty certain that it could have been he asked me to write it just for me to hear his love for me so specifically and powerfully. And I didn't know if it was for everyone else. And then it hit me, oh, it's really hard to get books published. So this is actually a very easy discernment. If I give it to a publisher and they want it, then it's probably God's will.

And if they don't, then it's not. And they actually really have to worry about it. And so with the encouragement of my spiritual fathers, gave it to Sophia Institute Press and they wanted it immediately. Is there a reason you chose that publisher? It was my spiritual father's recommendation, because he had written some books, and so he said he thought that would be a good fit. I had inquired at a different publisher first, but that process sort of never happened, because

they were switching sort of the style that they were publishing. They were going to more academic works and away from spiritual writing. And so it just wasn't a good fit at all. So it just didn't go down that. And so I asked him, well, where would you go? Cause I was Googling like all of these different Catholic publishers. I was like, I don't know anything about publishing a book.

I've never wanted to do this. This is not my area. And so I just asked him and he said, Sophia, that's who you want. That's a perfect fit. And so, and they just scooped it up and did an amazing job. Why did you call it light of his eyes? That was a word on that post.

That was what he spoke to my heart is really actually this this whole book is sort of a fruit of him speaking that to me. Like he said to me that I'm the light of His eyes, and I'm part of the body of Christ, and we're all His children, and so all of us are the light of His eyes. And I really felt like He wanted people to know that. So it wasn't just for me, it was for everyone, because actually what happens to me affects the whole church. And He just wanted to share that. And I remember a long time ago, probably 20 years ago, sharing a reflection with a friend of mine on the phone. And she was just completely shocked that I

was sharing this reflection, because actually it was for her and it wasn't for me so much. And I sort of realized in that moment, like sometimes when God is teaching me something, it's not just for me. It's for someone else also. And so I think that this book is that, and I've been very surprised with how much positive feedback I've gotten in the sense that even though I'm sharing stories specifically from my life, a lot of people can relate to it because a lot of people struggle to receive the Father's love for them as they are.

Would I embarrass you if I read a section and you could talk about it? You sure? Because I think this is something we all deal with. Or should you read it? Whatever you want. Yeah. If you don't mind reading it, I once I once. The party. Yeah. This was before I was a nun. This was I was

OK. I once went to a party and came to realize that I had spent most of the evening wondering what everyone else at the party was thinking of me. As I looked around, I noticed that I wasn't alone. I could tell by the looks of

insecurity in people's faces that most of us waste a lot of energy wondering what everyone else thinks of us. Are we lovable? Are we good enough or funny enough? Do we make the cut? What is this invisible cut we need to make? In the anxiety of this self-consciousness,

we fail to see that we are, each one of us, the light of our Father's eyes. We fail to realize that he who made us delights in us, that he longs to lift us up from our misery, that he longs to raise us up to be truly and freely ourselves, the splendor of his creation. He longs to hold us, his own sons and daughters, to his heart, a heart that beats violently with love for each of us. It is in pressing our ears to his chest and hearing each beat of his love that we will learn the truth of who we are in him. We are his beloved children in the very light of his eyes. Knowing that truth will transform

us from one degree of glory to another in brighter brighter glory, until we are so ablaze with the fire of that love that when people see us, they will see His love. This is a book not just about being a child of God, but about being His own child. Amen. I'm reminded of a psalm I love to pray with, but the heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament proclaims his handiwork. If the heavens declare the glory of God, how much more do we, like how much more do you and I proclaim the glory of God as his beloved sons and daughters if like the grass and the

flowers and the stars proclaim his glory. Why do we struggle to accept that? And why does trying to accept it feel arrogant? You know, I was just reading this part about St. Anthony of the desert. God allowed him to go through this really intense demonic temptation. And at the end of that, he asked God, like, where were you? Why did you not come and help me? Why did you not stop that? And the Lord showed him how much stronger he was because he made it through this trial. And then he says to Anthony that he's going to make his name known everywhere.

And this was in a reflection about humility. And I was like, what? That doesn't seem humble. His name is going to be known everywhere. And that made me think of Mary, right? All generations will call me blessed. This is the most humble woman in the world is saying all generations will call me blessed.

And so I had to really sit with that and come to this really deeper realization that humility is simply truth. Like I'm proclaiming by my very existence, by the fact that I'm breathing, that he has breathed his life into me and that like I'm alive because he loves me. Like the fact that I exist means he loves me because if he didn't, I would just, I wouldn't be able to exist. I'm just thinking this right now. So you could say that humility isn't you're not as good

as you think. Humility is no, you're better than you think. But for a different reason, yes, yes. It's like humility is knowing I'm actually made of dust. I'm really poor. But then God breathed his life into me. He made me in his image and likeness. He made me worthy to receive him in the sacraments. This just hit me like we had the reading of the centurion. I'm not worthy for you to enter into my house. Right. So after communion, I just automatically prayed that

in my heart. I was like, I'm not worthy for you to enter under my roof. And then I'm like, but I'm God's house. So actually you've entered under your own roof in me. Like he's made his home in me. He's actually made me worthy. And I'm not worthy because I'm somehow superior than other people. That would be pride. I'm worthy because he's done it in

me like he's taken dust and made it made it his treasure. And so yeah. Something I reflect on Thursday, would you mind looking at what paraclete means? I'm pretty sure it means defense attorney. Okay. So we'll see if I'm right. But after the devil's the accuser, there you go. Yeah. Yeah. Revelation 12 10, the accuser of our brethren who accused him day and night before the throne

of God. And I think one of the one of the pitfalls of no longer believing in the devil is that we assume that all of the accusation that we often feel in our heart and the shame, it's got to come from somewhere. If I'm not really believing in the devil or the demonic, then it must maybe it's from God. Yeah. And then the devil does this. I learned this on retreat, just within myself, because like what was happening to me was teaching me like The devil will give me a prideful thought

Yeah, which I wouldn't actually do anything with it. It goes through my head I move on with life, but he's now tempted me with this prideful thought and then accused me of pride Yeah, see you see that thought you had that was so prideful. You're a very prideful person so it's like a double trick. He's trying to get me with the temptation and with the accusation that came with the temptation. Did you find it? Yeah, of course I did. Being a humility.

Pericle means a helper. Literally the Greek word pericleitos translates to someone who is called to come alongside someone else. In Greek culture, the word was used for a family attorney. Okay. Which I think is stronger than like a different like, like if you think about that, theologically family says, it says more about that. That's beautiful.

And you think like even on the natural level, like if you ever meet somebody who's living a very crummy life, let's say they're involved in all sorts of serious, shameless sins. It's usually not because they came from a solid family who love them and they knew of that love and they grew up secure in that love. We can usually trace it to a wounding that took place in some form of rejection in which we believed things about ourselves that weren't true. If you believe that you're nothing crap, you start to expect others to treat you like that. And.

Yeah, I remember having this one experience. I was like teenager doing something I shouldn't have been doing and being aware. I shouldn't have been doing it and doing it anyway. And I sort of in that moment had sort of pictured my guardian angel crying. I thought of this like 20, 30 years later. No, it would have been like 25 years later. I remembered that. And I realized that I had interpreted.

I know he's an incorporeal. He's not actually crying. But like that that sense of him crying, I had interpreted completely incorrectly. I thought he was crying because he was so disappointed in me for what I was doing. And like what he was crying about was he saw the wound that led to what I was doing.

And like, I remember seeing a little kid just walking down the street and you can just tell that he's in a really pretty rough situation. And I was just like, I just it was this moment where I started realizing that I was not seeing when I was seeing an abuser. I wasn't just seeing an abuser. I was seeing an abused child and an abuser. Like, we're not just like waking up one morning and thinking,

oh, this is something I'd like to do with my life. These are very, very deep wounds. And so it gives you a new sensitivity and a new desire to pray and intercede for God to heal, pour his healing ointment into all of that. Like the good Samaritan, Jesus is the good Samaritan. We're the beat up guy on the side of the road. We need him to pour that healing ointment. And in fact, in receiving that, we're now encountering God.

So, I mean, I could say I don't want these wounds. I don't want to have had them at all. But then I'd miss that encounter with God and I wouldn't be me because he's ministered to me in those places. Yeah. Yeah. And this isn't a new thought, right? This is like the Church Fathers talk about this as the sacraments that are being bestowed upon the wounded man, the Christ, the one who's healing us. I think a lot of us struggle to believe that it's true for us. So you will. Yeah, of course it's true for you, Mother Ileana, you know,

and we all just assume that this conviction that you have is as solid as a wall, you know, good, but it's somehow not true for me. I'm sure you've experienced that very thought too. Yes. I realized this even on this last retreat. I was like, I don't have, I don't really care what sins my spiritual father committed before. When I see him, I see beloved son in whom the Lord delights. That's who I see. I don't I don't really care whatever crazy things he's ever done. Doesn't even in any way, shape or form enter my mind. But then I realized, well, that's because none of his wounds really wounded me. Like his sins didn't wound me specifically. I was spared that.

So there might be people in this life that were wounded by him that would feel that more. And I realized what I was really looking at was myself like my sins have wounded me And so I'm actually not able to look at myself with that compassion Because I've been affected by that by that wound. That's beautiful. It was really Important insight. Say it again a different way. That's so profound It was it was too profound for my little mind to comprehend until you got to the end. And so that's when I realized what you were saying. Leave me through that again. So you look at me, for example, because we don't have a relationship.

You've never wounded me because we don't know each other, so you haven't had a chance to wound me. I mean, I guess, I mean, one could say like each of our sins wounds the church. Like, all that matters, but I don't have any sort of psychological like, oh, I need to be on guard. This man has wounded me before. None of that exists there. And so, I can just take you, I can see you and say, oh, beloved son of the Father, that's all I see. Beautiful.

But then I look at that person that has wounded me. A little harder to see beloved son of the father. Well then really all I'm doing is talking about myself. It's really hard to see beloved son of the father looking at me because I've really wounded myself with my own sins. And I realized this on a retreat before when the whole theme was about play

and I felt so guilty playing. And I really took that to the Lord. I'm like, where's that coming from? Like, yeah, there are some woundings there from childhood of when play wasn't safe, whatever. Like, that's not it. I kept playing. What made me actually stop playing? And he showed me that it was just my sin because once I sinned, like chose to sin, now I'm in a place of total fear. I assume God is disappointed in me and now I'm gonna try and earn his love. So now I'm gonna be afraid to play

because I'm not earning his love. I'm wasting my time by this play. And so I was like, well, okay, Lord, if that's the problem, what's the remedy? Like, how do you heal that? And he showed me that it's by, it's actually really simple. Not easy.

It's really simple just to let him love me as I am. That's the remedy. Then I'm going to play again because I know I'm loved as I am. Well, I'm playing while I'm going on the water slide. Well, I'm driving to the airport because it's my obedience to pick someone up. Well, I'm at Wal-Mart in Geauga County. Doesn't matter whatever I'm doing I'm loved and if I can be loved in that then I can be... You can calm down. Yeah yeah it really like it's a real antidote for anxiety. Well humility is a real antidote for anxiety because like actually like my worrying at best isn't

going to affect a change at worst it'll make it worse. But what will my stillness do? What will me resting in the father's love for me due to that situation? I mean I think of my own children and I'm just so in love with them. And if I knew that one of them wanted to be something other than they were, it would just I would be like, why would you think that? Who told you that? Yeah, my gosh. How much that would break the father's heart if my beautiful daughter wanted to be,

you know, let's say she thought she was too goofy, you know, or she made too many jokes or she looked a certain way and she didn't like that. I would be broken hearted. And I just want to say, I really like you. And yeah. And this is like, so the father wants to do that. It's such a core wound. Like this is what the devil does with Jesus and the temptation in the wilderness. If you are the son, of course he's the son. The devil's even trying to get Jesus to not believe that.

How much more is he gonna try and get us to believe? Like we each have to hear that. Yeah, I think Thomas Aquinas said that Christ had a guardian angel. He must have had no job at all. What was he doing? Yeah, but how much more susceptible are we to the lies of the enemy, hey? You must have had no job at all. What was he doing? Yeah. Yeah.

But how much more susceptible are we to the lies of the enemy? Hey, yeah. Gosh. And that I realized that pride is not just this thing that we need to avoid. Like pride is the this is like a demonic attack that I need to renounce. And it's pride that tells me I can't possibly be loved the way I am, but I've been made this way by someone who loves me and sustains me. And so in my life I've had to, because you could read this book and think like, oh, this girl is is never gonna doubt the Father's love after that.

After the book's written? Yeah, like wow, he sure loves her. She wrote the book on the topic, yeah. But this is something that the devil's never gonna cease trying to derail within me and I have to look at that from the perspective of, now I need to renounce Satan and all his works because this is from the pit of hell, because it's not the father. Yeah. And so as soon as we start falling that falling into that trap that we're not beloved, we know that it's an attack. Yeah. And I like that connection between like, disbelieving that I'm the beloved and just going like hell, you know, trying to crush the day,

trying to not being able to sit, not believing I'm lovable, I think is what it is, you know. Julian of Norwick, Norwich, however you pronounce it, has that lovely line of, and I imagine the father saying it to my heart, all will be well and all manner of things will be well and all shall be well. and all manner of things will be well and all shall be well. You know, like I just the more I can believe that, the more I just much my shoulders drop and I can actually be unguarded. I can be myself. Yeah. Yeah. And like if the heavens declare the glory of God, how much more do we? I'm just reminded of I got to hear Father Kintla Mesa once give a talk.

He preaches to the pope and I got to hear him speak. I don't know how that happened. It was amazing. And he told a story. I don't remember every detail of the story, but I remember the essence of it. And he had gone to a prayer meeting. Then he went, I don't remember if it was a train or a bus, but public transportation home, not dressed as a priest, not holding a bravery or a Bible. He was like, there was nothing about me to tell anyone who I was or that dressed as a priest, not holding a And when I see her face, I'm obliged to believe in God. Like there was this man was somehow radiating God's love to this woman just because his heart was united with God. And there was nothing to tell her that. And I think when we have eyes to see it, all of us do that.

Carol House Lander says that Christ is in everyone. And sometimes it's a little harder to recognize. Maybe it's just the empty tomb. But like, he's in everyone. And so we really have to need to pray for the grace to be able to see that in our neighbor and in ourselves. Like, I went on retreat once and I went to confession and the priest asked me at the end of confession, have you forgiven the people that have hurt you? And I had just done the unbound prayers the night before, so I was like, yes, I have,

I can actually say that. I have just forgiven them. And he said, okay, well, do you love yourself? Like instant like gut is like, I don't like that question. And I'm like, I'm standing before the living God. You're asking me this in like, I have, I can't, I can't answer that. Like, I don't know.

What do you, I mean, I don't know. What kind of stupid question is that? And he's like, it's okay. It's okay. Just, you don't have to answer. Just go, go pray about that. And I was just like amazed by my reaction. This is after I've written a book on the Father's love.

And then this priest asked me if I love myself, and I'm like, yeah! And I went and prayed about it. You know what hit me is, blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. We think we're cursed, but actually we're blessed. And when Jesus says, like, what are the greatest commandments? He says, love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, strength, and mind. And the second is like it. Love your neighbor as

yourself. Like, loving myself and loving my neighbor is like unto loving God. Like, it's and loving my neighbor is like unto loving God. Like, it's that important. This is what Jesus tells me is that important. And so like, because what I sat with was like, well, why is he asking me this in confession? Is it a sin that I don't love myself? And then I realized, well, the Lord is asking me to, and how am I gonna love my neighbor

if I can't even love me? And so there was just a lot there. And so I think each of us should take that to prayer. If we recoil in our very guts, when someone asks us if we love ourselves, we should really go to the Lord and say, Oh, I am really struggling with this. Can you speak into this? Can you help me to see not just that I'm beloved to you because you're so merciful and you

forgive everything, but that I'm actually just beloved. It reminds me of Elder Thaddeus' book, Our Thoughts Determine Our Lives. It's so good. So it's like if I sit and hate myself and I'm uncomfortable with being alone with myself and I'm condemning myself and I believe all the worst things about myself And any compliment I'm given I think well, you obviously don't know me. So that's crap So it's easy to believe the criticism. It's not easy at all to accept the compliments And yeah, so if I'm in that state, how can I love you? You know like that that disorder and that?

Agitation within me is going to express it. Oh, yeah Yeah, you can't because you're not loving yourself. And so how can you like look around and see the light of God in someone else? Like you're not even looking at them. You're still looking at yourself. And I'm saying this because I'm so familiar with it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, this is a strong subtitle.

Journeying from self-contempt to the father's delight. Self-contempt. You want to talk about that? You know, a very dear friend of mine, Father Francis, he just entered a Trappist monastery. So pray for Father Francis. I went to confession once with him and I confessed self-condemnation,

self-contempt, and he goes, oh, he's a very gentle soul. Very it's the most gentle soul I've ever met You wouldn't give me poison to drink would you he said that's what he asked me I said well no And he said well, why are you drinking it yourself? That was a really important confession for me. Like I hadn't like that. We can get so caught up in our false humility of like, well, I'm wretched and I've done all these bad things and I'm just a mess. So like when you compliment me, like, no, it's not true. You don't actually know me.

But that's really also pride because we're not announcing the truth that we're beloved to the Father. And that took me years and years and years and years to come to even a little bit of an understanding of that. Like, priests would tell me all the time in confession, that's false humility. And I'm like, what does that mean? I can't see it.

I don't understand. I'm not trying to not understand. I just don't. But that one really helped me. Like I'm literally just drinking poison. And I'm not just drinking poison, like, and I'm not announcing the truth. I'm not announcing of who I actually am. Like each one of us needs to be Jesus in the Jordan, hearing the heavens, like seeing the heavens

open and hearing the Father say, this is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased. Like each of us needs that, even though we're daughters like but we're we're in in Christ We're all the beloved son so good prayer to take away for those watching and for us might be father Tell me you love me until I finally give in and believe you That's a good one Whatever is real whatever is that real thing that's in there needs to bubble out Like I think you hate me because all these terrible things have happened to me. Why haven't you protected me?

If you loved me that much, why haven't you protected me? All of that needs to come up. We need to be Job. We need to be Jeremiah, Lamentations 3. Wow, talk about being real with the Father. Like, read Lamentations 3. Like, you gotta just tell him all of it. And then see, we're afraid.

We we struggle to receive the Father's love because we're afraid to pray, because we're afraid to be silent. Because if we're silent, we'll find out about ourselves and we're afraid of that. And so but like, that's the stuff we need to take to prayer. And we need to risk sitting in the silence with the Father with that so that he can speak into it. Yeah.

And I know for me, if I'm busy all day, flitting about from one thing to the next, listening to this podcast, driving somewhere, getting this thing, how many arrows are shot at my heart as it were throughout that period, but I don't, I'm not praying at all times. So I'm not aware of what's taking place. I'm not aware of the emotions of my heart. And then I might rip somebody's head off and wonder why I did that or eat too much or something like that and wonder what's going on.

And it's cause we live in so much noise that we're not able to discern the heart. Yeah, that sort of, that to me feels like this bombardment. And I once had like a really good sort of visual, Yeah, that to me feels like this bombardment. And I once had like a really good sort of visual. I'm very visual. I'm so right brain. I need these visuals.

I need to picture giving Father Francis poison and giving myself poison to see how terrible my self-contempt actually is. I actually need that visual. So I was, I had just renounced a lot of the devil's lies sort of one by one during doing those unbound prayers. Like name the wound, renounce it, announce the truth. And I was like, this is good stuff.

We need to do this all the time. And then I went to bed and woke up in the middle of the night and I'm talking about a hundred anxieties hit me all at once. And I'm like completely helpless. I'm like, I can't renounce 100 things at two o'clock in the morning. I can't even really pinpoint all the things.

It's just vague anxieties and that situation that I know nothing, like I can't do anything about that and all this. And I just got the image of like the black and white footage of World War II planes and they're dropping like all these pellets of bombs. They just all come out. I'm like, it would not be a good strategy from the ground to try and take out each of those bombs. Like I know they have to try to do that to try and save as many people as

they can, but you're just not going to be able to get them. It's too much. You're getting bombarded. Like you got to take out the plane. Like you have to say, I renounce Satan and all his works, and ask Mary to pray and intercede for you in her humility, and ask the saints to pray and intercede for you in their humility, because you're being bombarded, and you're not gonna be able to figure out all the different ways in which you're being bombarded. And sometimes you do, you're like, okay, that's an attack,

I need to announce that. But he likes to bombard us, and then we're totally overwhelmed. And then we kind of just get depressed and fall into despair. Yeah. I want to tell you about a course that I have created for men to overcome pornography. It is called strive 21.com slash Matt. You go there right now. Or if you text strive to 66866,

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and things like that. Strive21 that's Strive21.com slash Matt or as I say text text Strive to 66866 to get started today you You won't regret it Yeah, I like that. I like that image Yeah, it's a good visual for me and I actually think of it when I'm being bombarded and I'm like, oh that's what's happening I need to just go for the plane But again, I go back to this idea which we've already circled around that I live in this world of noise with my podcasts and my Conversations and my what I'm looking at the music I listen to my concerns of other people even podcasts like this one. Well this one's probably good because we're actually trying to help people hear the voice of the father but even our interior monologues for those of us living in the world and maybe those who aren't, we distract ourselves from ourselves

in order to avoid ourselves. Then you're not even aware of the bomb, as you say. Yeah. Then you're just sort of a sitting duck. But I think, like, because St. Paul asks us to pray without ceasing, I don't know how to do that. Yeah. Like, how am I?

I'm so distracted. I'm a nun, just I'm a nun and I could be at Vespers and be distracted for the entire time in front of all these icons smelling incense, like, and I'm distracted in my own thoughts, like, and let alone pray without ceasing while I'm actually doing things and busy. It's really important for us to be gentle with ourselves and to just acknowledge that and ask goodness I'm gonna read something to

you's gonna blow you away we'll cut this weird bit out as well like a or not if it's too awkward okay so I read a book recently by Mark Foley who's a Carmelite We heard of it What's the book cutting it out cutting it out cutting it out? It's gonna blow you away. I love Carmelite's Oh, I love Carmelite's too, and I love French people. Why am I not the French so much? I Think the French take that to prayer. There is there is just a lot of mercy that's been given to us by French authors and French saints. French Carmelites. Yeah. All right. Give me one second. It's good. It's not live. It's not live. I just want you to know I'm

doing everything I can with just faces to get mother Natalia to laugh out loud in the background She's supposed to be praying. Why would you do that to her? Pray without ceasing? Yeah, if this if this if this goes poorly it's because she's not praying because you're distracting her No, you're beautiful, this is why I wanted to do this life I like that the reason it's given in her life is because it's not. You're doing great. Oh, you're beautiful. This is why I wanted to do this live. Yeah, because it's a lot. It's a lot more work for him.

All right. So ready? All right. So there is a book called The Context of Holiness. And I read this recently with Father Boniface, but I'm going to do it again. And I'm going to let you comment on it. The nature of healing. Freud once said that therapy ends when we are dealing with our problems and they are no longer dealing with us.

35 years ago, when I was a gung-ho undergraduate psychology major, Freud's viewpoint sounded pessimistic and depressing. Now as a man in his 60s who is still struggling with the same fears and neurotic tendencies that I wrestled within my youth, I see Freud's perspective as being realistic. For our not our deeply rooted, deeply embedded, and deeply entrenched personality traits chronic, obdurate, and unyielding by definition.

Even though I believe that by the grace of God, I am not the man I was 35 years ago, for I can honestly say that much emotional healing has taken place in my heart. Nevertheless, during times of stress when my old fears and neurotic compulsions well up within me in all their savage intensity, I feel that nothing has changed. I say to myself, and here's the kicker, I say to myself, when will I ever be... When will I ever be rid of this fear? Once I could accept the answer, never. I felt a great weight taken off my shoulders, for I was released from the impossible goal

of trying to become someone other than myself. Working on yourself can be an insidious mask of self-hate, for it makes you feel that there is something wrong with you until you are healed. I have often told people who come to me for spiritual direction to never make it a goal to conquer their faults. Simply ask for the grace to resist the temptation of the moment. Take it for granted that you always have tendencies towards certain sins and self-destructive behaviors, which will always be opportunities to grow in virtue and rely on the grace of God.

Now here's what made me think of this coming from Therese of Lisieux. You know, you say, here you are, you're a nun, you're in front of icons and I can't pray. What's the deal? This idea of needing, not needing to grow up. So Therese saying, I had no need to grow up. Therese did not make it a goal to get beyond the effects of her childhood, but to do the will of God in the midst of them. Therese understood that the emotional wounds of her childhood were not obstacles to spiritual

growth, but the context of growing in holiness. Therese can help us refocus our goal in life. She tells us to keep our minds on doing the will of God. If our emotions are transformed in the process, all well and good, praise God. But if they are not changed, they are the context in which we will grow in God's love." That's wonderful. Come on. Isn't that what we're talking about?

Yes, it's all of the things. So many things came to my mind. So it has the Holy Spirit to remind me. I'm being bombarded in a different way. So good. But to release yourself even from the pressure to say it perfectly, do I have it come to you? Yeah. Because I think that's the other thing real quick. But so that you can forget everything you're currently thinking in is is we even that right when you're like just you need to pray and you need to renounce and you need to it.

Sometimes when you get told all those things like, oh great. So it's on me again, like I'm the problem, but just this surrender and sitting is the solution. Yeah. Yeah, I'm poor and needy, yet the Lord thinks of me. He doesn't think of me because I came out of being poor and needy. He thinks of me because I'm poor and needy. And so I need him. I need him literally for everything, everything, because without me, you can do nothing. Like he says that John 15,

without him, we can do nothing. That's not very much. I mean, yeah, we just come to him in our poverty and sin and brokenness. And that's who he delights in and that's who he loves. And a lot of what's in the book is about spiritual childhood and just being this child in whom he delights. But what happens when kids try to fix things? Yeah. It's usually worse than before they started. That really hit me.

Like, oh. A lot of energy is spent and then things are worse. Yeah. Yeah, that's such a huge temptation. The image that I get is like this train. Like we keep thinking we're missing the train to holiness. We just keep missing it. Like I'm standing on this platform and it went by and I missed it.

There went that other person. There went that other saint. They caught the train. I'm the loser who did it because I'm still doing the same things I did 30 years ago. And then the Lord literally like had to show me this. You're not missing the train, honey. You're on the train. I'm the conductor and it's going at just the right pace because I'm the conductor.

And so I don't need to compare myself to myself or compare myself to somebody else. I need to trust that I'm on this train. God's leading it. And he'll take me when I'm ready as I am, trust that I'm on this chain, God's leading it, and He'll take me when I'm ready, as I am, whatever that means. And St. Paul had a thorn in the flesh, who knows what that was, but God didn't take care of that and get rid of it. He went to heaven with this thorn in his flesh.

So yeah, we have to really be on guard against this temptation to fix ourselves and really just stand naked before the Father in our brokenness and let Him do it. Like Mary says, be it done unto me. Carol Houselander points out like it's not what she did, it's what God did in her. I think that was hers at Fulton Sheen, or maybe both of them, I don I don't remember but like be it done unto me like let God do it This is what's tough right because I would rather God say to me. Okay, so you want to be holy Here's what you have to do. All right. All right, cool. Give me the game plan. Yeah Bible in a year podcast cool Check, you know, like, you know pray whatever do these certain things, you know, but it's all stuff. I'm doing

That's what I assume God's say which is the opposite of be it done unto me, because it's the things that are being done unto me that I don't really respond well to. So I sometimes fear that if God said, I want you to read the entire Bible every week for the rest of your life, I could I could do that if it may go into heaven. But if I'm afraid that if God said, don't cause your family any unnecessary grief, I'm like, oh, I'm screwed. Like, I don't know how to do that. Well, it's because we we what do children bring like a newborn? They bring literally nothing but their need.

Yeah. And Jesus thanks the father for revealing, like hiding this from wise and understanding and revealing them to infants. for revealing, like hiding this from wise and understanding and revealing them to infants. Like if we're really his infants, then all we're bringing is our need, which means we're gonna mess up. Because I was realizing as the Lord is like disciplining me and saying like, wow, you're really prideful,

let me start teaching you about humility. Great, it's only the beginning, you're gonna mess this up a lot, because guess what, you're an infant. So learning to walk is kind of hard but Also, like he didn't come at me with a rod because infants don't need rods infants Just need very gentle redirection like away from the electric socket. Okay. No, that's not for you like so

But if I'm really his infant then I'm really just bringing my need. And I'm kind of dangerous because I'm going to go for the electric socket. But he kind of has to do it. Do it all. He has to parent me like we we we decide that we need to figure this out and be the parent and discipline ourselves. And he's the parent and we're the kid. And he's going to do it all in us, whatever that needs to be done. And for all that messy stuff, like, do we really think the apostles were in a hot mess? Like, they were. They messed up all the time.

They didn't get anything Jesus was telling them. It cracks me up when he's like, do you understand what I'm saying? Oh, we do. No, you don't. You're barely scratching the them. It cracks me up when he's like, do you understand what I'm saying? Oh, we do. No, you don't. You're barely scratching the surface. It's kind of funny. But like we think we get it. We think we're really smart,

but compared to God's wisdom, not really. It's better if we come to him in our brokenness, in our need and let him love us in that, like that kid who's just head to toe covered in dirt and slime and who knows what else, what they've been eating, aw, and just love them. I mean, you still love that kid who's covered in dirt and slime.

How can the father not love who he's made? I mean, he wouldn't have made you if he didn't love you. But the devil basically spends our entire life like he's on a make or break mission to make us think we're not lovable as and doubt the father's love. That's his main mission. That's sort of the first mission. It's somewhere in the catechism. It's like, that's the first thing he starts with because if he's got that he's got all the rest.

Cause honestly, I'm not gonna learn to be humble until I believe that the father loves me. Cause how am I supposed to actually take a humiliation? Well, if I don't know that I'm lovable and loved. Just be a threat. Yeah. Defense, ah, er, er. Like it'd be so, like, just immediately,

all the defenses would go up. But when I know that I'm lovable and someone says that really hurtful thing, I can go to the father and say, oh, that hurt. What do you say about me? Yeah. And then we have an encounter with God. I think, I remember once I was talking

with a dear spiritual director and we were praying and getting into some of this stuff. What does the father think of you? You know, and I think one of my defenses that went up, which I'm sure I'm not alone in is, well, I just want this to be true. Like these are things I want to say to myself. And he's like, look at how you talk to yourself on a regular basis. I don't think you do want to talk to yourself this way. This actually isn't the easier way to, at least initially, to believe that we're loved and to accept ourselves as needy before him. That's actually the way so many of us are so used to self-condemnation.

And yeah, it's just our default. It's like factory default setting. Yeah. But that's also a lie, because it's not how we were made. We were made to walk with God and talk with him in the cool of the day. And it's really the fall, which was pride. We said, well, he doesn't he's not going to take care of me. He doesn't love me enough to take care of me. I can do it myself.

And so we grab. It's really the heart of the matter. Who do you hope reads this book? Like, who do you have in mind that you're like, oh, I think anyone who already is searching for God in any way would be able to read it. But anyone who has ever doubted the Father's love for them will be able to relate to it. So that's kind of everybody. I have wondered, like, and you can give me feedback about that, I'm like, I want to give it to the lady at the doctor's office. She's not a Christian. I don't know how much of it

can she relate to because there's a lot about, like, I went to adoration or I heard the Lord say this. Yeah, but I mean just from the little I've seen and I want to read this, I haven't, but I have read bits and pieces, but just from the little I've seen, I love how vulnerable you are, you know? Like, I mean, so much of this is personal, you know, what you just read a moment ago and then I remember once visiting, you know, like it's personal and it's beautiful. This is, and what a beautiful thing. And I found like as an author to give your own book to somebody else, like it

can actually be like, Hey, here's something I wrote. Unfortunately, my books are about pornography, so it just makes everyone uncomfortable, but this book, you know, I have to say, you look like you need this, but this book is, uh, is not like that, you know, and I'm going to say like, I'm shocked at how beautiful they made it. Oh, it's so beautiful. Is this the book, Father Boniface just put out a book on consecration to the blessed mother through is this the same publisher?

They are kick knocking it out of the park. Oh, they're so good. And the editor did such a good job. Some very ardent and very passionate and she was able to completely retain my voice. Like that is the book I wrote. But she was able to like tone down the Ardent and make it more accessible to people. Like, you know, people read Therese and they're like, oh, vomit. Like, it's so not really.

Some people do. Like, it's too flowery. It's too sentimental. I think in the beginning, I was just like French girl who likes bonbons, not digging it. You know, but then later I realized realized this woman ought not to be called the little flower, but the iron will. I mean, that woman is a warrior. And she suffered tremendously and just incredible suffering. And they did such a good job and they put icons in it

to make it very easy to pray with in that sense. They did a really good job. And I was wondering, like, who's gonna be able to relate to this book because I have, like, this interesting background, right? Like, my dad's a priest. I'm raised Byzantine, so like a Roman Catholic might read that and be like, ah, that scares me! Why is your dad a priest? And then also I'm talking about going to adoration or holy hour or something like that And like the Byzantines would be like why is she doing that? That's not in our tradition and and so it's like and then I went to Protestant school when I was a kid and so I just have this way of like really loving to

just talk very directly about this is what God did in this way that all my friends did growing up. And so, but I think what I found is because of such a strange conglomeration of things that make me me, it's more relatable to more people because we're all kind of an interesting conglomeration. And so it's not, even though it's a book coming out of a Byzantine monastery, it's not it's it's even though it's a book coming out of a Byzantine monastery. There's it's more It's broader than that. It's kind of got a little bit of everything

Hopefully that's good and holy well, thank you so much for writing the book and thank you so much for coming on my show It's lovely to chat with you. Thanks for inviting me. You're welcome All right the end