Pints With Aquinas - Movies, Cheese, and Love for Our Lord w/ Fr. John Parks

Episode Date: August 19, 2022

In this great episode Matt talks with diocesan priest and public speaker Fr. John Parks about "a Quiet Place," Chesterton on Cheese, methods of prayer, booba (not boba) and kiki, picking interview guests, Tom Bombadil, and much more. Support us on Locals, get a TON in return: https://mattfradd.locals.com/support Hallow: https://hallow.com/mattfradd Exodus 90: https://exodus90.com/matt-home/

So I had a teacher in seminary and I took what's called an independent study. And his name is Father Gavin Barnes. He was an amazing guy. Let's set a theater at Northwestern. Anyway, he's a monk of St. Minard where I went and he thought that the genius of Shakespeare was the sound. And so, uh, there's a, there's a, I think it's in King Lear where King Lear is like going crazy and he's in the storm.

And at one point he says blow winds and crack your cheeks. And he said, people who don't understand Shakespeare will pipe in storm noises. Hmm. Shh, but he said, you don't need to do that because Shakespeare already built the storm in the speech. Interesting. So blow winds and crack your cheeks. I see.

It sounds like whoosh. Yeah, yeah. And I was, and when he said it, I thought, is that real? Like, that's amazing. Yeah. And so he's the one who convinced me that the genius of Shakespeare is in the sound it makes, which is, it's in the text.

And so I think that's why reading Shakespeare is a little bit like handing out Mozart's scores. Interesting. Like, the sound is the genius. So I think if you want people to love Shakespeare. You need to hear it. Yeah. I mean, obviously the wordplay is amazing. So that's an added benefit.

So it wouldn't be exactly analogous to saying it's like printing off Mozart's musical scores. But nevertheless, if you want to get into Shakespeare, I would recommend going to see it. Do you think, have you ever done this thing where you realize that words sound like what they're conveying? Like, I don't know if that's true or if it like big, does big sound big?

Does little sound little? I don't know. Yeah. Bang, bang. Yeah. So that's like an onomatopoeia though, right? Like zing bang. Have you heard of a boba and Kiki? No, no. So it's a study where there's people, they're shown a circle and a square and they say, which one's boba and which one's Kiki or it's a study where there's people, they're shown a circle and a square and they say, which one's Boba and which one's Kiki?

Or it's a circle and a triangle. Which one's Boba? Which one's Kiki? What would you say? The circles clearly. Boba and Kiki. Kiki would be the triangle. Yeah, of course.

And the circles Boba. Of course. And none of these languages that they surveyed, it was multiple languages across like continents. None of them had a word Boba or Kiki, but everyone identified boba as the circle and Kiki is the is it because Kiki has the sharp edge sound to it yes that's right I think that's right and boba sounds like a round sound. Don't you just love my podcast? You didn't know we were going to talk about this. I didn't know Neil knew that. This is why long form is where it's at. Remember like 20 years ago when you go on EWTN and get two minutes. Yeah. Yeah, maybe he did

But then joke would be selling you something about like, you know some placard or something boba and Kiki boba and Kiki I'm not gonna forget this. There's other words though. Isn't there that sound like what they convey? Give me one I think you'd give me one lounge. No Okay, lounge does feel like you're relaxing. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. But maybe maybe silent. No. Silent. But then scream if see if scream meant silent. Maybe I'd think scream sounded silent. Perhaps. I'm trying to think of a word that it doesn't do that. And then it's confusing.

So I studied a little bit of Latin in my life. And so you're knowing Latin roots. That's really helpful. So in a word, I don't want a word doesn't I'm trying to bit of Latin in my life. And so knowing Latin roots, that's really helpful. So when a word, I don't, when a word doesn't, I'm trying to think of a word that just doesn't make sense to me. Cause it doesn't sound like it should, what it means, you know, or does it mean what it sounds like? Let's just start saying words. Kettle, bath, refrigerator.

Okay. Whiskey, glass, bum, finger. My teacher who was just mentioning, Gavin Barnes, he thinks like the most natural sound is ah, which he said what we call him God. What? God. Gog? God, like God, the deity of the universe.

I get you, I know that guy. So like it's the most natural sounds like ah, God. But we normally in America would say God, instead of God. Golly. I wish I had a thought of this before I'm sure that what was that word you said like bang zing zip. What is that on a monopoeia? I never have heard of that before see on a monopoeia doesn't sound anything like what's good man I don't even really know what it's conveying, but yeah, it's just kind of syllables put together for you know, zing pow It's like everything in comic books Ka-pow exactly it does have that Batman kind of like punching for people at once hmm also animal noises like moo

It's supposed to sound like a cow, but it's the word that means the sound of the cows So do you ever see that bit with Brian Regan where he's reading a child's book and the owl says hoot No, it doesn't Never been outside Brian Reagan, he's really good. He's seen him live. No, I've seen him live three times. Is he good? He's very good. And my wife saw him live before he was big and she was on a front row Front table, you know had a little little bar in Houston. Yeah, he's terrific He has made me like heard laughing.

He just has a gift. Some people are just funny. Yeah. And I think when you're clean, it's harder in some ways. And he's just he's really good. Why do you think that is? I understand the shock value of an F bomb inomb in a comedy standup routine and maybe that's like it shocks you and it kind of wakes you into laughter in a way. But what is it about clean comedy that you think is actually...

Well, actually, let me rephrase that in this way. I think that you're always establishing a context for the crowd and when you can make them laugh in a clean way, you can ride that out. So I think what our friend Bob Rice, he studied comedy in his life, and I think they have this phrase something like, when you go blue, you can't go back. So if you use like the F-bomb, you can use it once,

and you can get like kind of a shocking laugh. Or tell a dirty joke up front, but then you can't. It's almost like you can't recover from there. And I find that's generally true. Like if there are comics that are from like, ugh, once they kind of go there, they either stay there or keep going. So it was downward interest because you've now set a context. So I go, I guess that's, we can do that now.

But if you think about the most successful comics, at least was traditionally, we're not like doing blue comedy, like cause you want to be like family friendly. That's your, that's going to just get you the audience. That's probably also the case that it was probably less acceptable 50 years ago to be as blue as people are today. That's probably true. I like Louis CK, but I can't watch his stand up routines because he gets so

dirty. Yes. And just dirty is the wrong word. Just vulgar and disgusting. But when you watch him in like a late night back and forth with, say, Conan O'Brien or somebody like his brilliance, I think really shines forth because he he can't be as foul as he is in his stand up. He's very witty. He's very funny and he's very perceptive. He's made perceptions about life. And I'm like, that is really. That is the heart of comedy is showing you what you thought you were the only one

you experienced something. You know, Mortimer J. Out there once defined Aristotle as having uncommon common sense. So he said common sense, but it was uncommon. He liked points out things. You're like, that is true. Yeah. And I think comics are pointing out something that you've seen a hundred times. You've read that child's book. That's his hoot. And that's what the owl says. Yeah. And that doesn't make any sense, but you've just never noticed it.

But a comedian's like, what's going on there? Yeah. Yeah. So comedians just see the world differently. Have you done comedy before? Didn't you do, um, like comedy sports? I thought. No, when I was in college, I was a theater major. Okay. And then I applied for like our improv comedy troop at my college. And I went to the, um, rehearsal and it was so dirty. The rehearsal I just walked out. Really? Yeah. Like I wanted to justify to myself,

like I wanna do this. But then I thought about it rationally and I thought, nah, I don't think this is good for my soul, number one. And number two, even if I make it, I don't know who I would invite. I thought, even if I make the team, who am I gonna invite? I was like a youth leader on a core team, you know?

Like a youth group. And I'd be like, never come. I wouldn't wanna tell anyone about it because I'd be afraid they'd show up and even if like the bits I were in were Pretty clean. I knew the other ones in the special would be Like R rated. Yeah, and so I just can't do it. Was it this stand-up? Did you have a routine? No, no, no It's like so they had both like sketch comedy where like SNL, but then they also had improv comedy So it was those two groups. So I was auditioning for those. Why do you think it is that women can be very funny, but not as standups?

When did you stop beating your wife? I actually don't think that's true. You don't name one funny female standup comic. Well, first of all, let me just say, no, I said before name one fun. Yeah. I think Taylor Tomlinson is funny. I don't know who that is. Well, there you go. But I think I Tomlinson is funny. I don't know. Well, there you go But I think I hate sexual humor like vulgar humor I don't think it's funny and I find it like in my gut. I'm like, oh, I hate this and I hate the fact Why do you hate it? Do you think it's just male comedians?

Very often have that's right vulgar sexual humor. Let me tell you my thought on the topic subject And I'm happy to be corrected. I'll listen to this lady. Maybe she's brilliant have vulgar sexual humor. Let me tell you my thought on the topic subject, and I'm happy to be corrected. I'll listen to this lady. Maybe she's brilliant. I'm not trying to not find female stay. It's not like this is a doctrine I have to submit to. I'm okay finding a woman who's hilarious. So here's a couple of women who I find her hilarious in tv that Sheila from Parks and Rec. What's her name? The main one, you know. Don't know. Okay.

Well, she is outrageously hilarious. Lucille Ball is also really, really funny. We pull her. Yeah, she's terrific. You know, like women are hilarious. Laura Horn, Trent Horn's wife, probably the funniest woman I've ever met in my life, like funny, one of the funniest people I've ever met. My wife is uncommonly hilarious, especially in the morning when she doesn't have a wits about her.

She just starts saying these really witty, hilarious things. But I think that the reason I think that men are funnier than women and stand up and perhaps generally speaking, are better presenters like solo presenters. There are obviously excellent presenters. I'm thinking of Sister Miriam, James, Hyndland and others. I think it's the authority thing. I think men have an authority that women don't when they speak. So that when I find that women are on stage, they either,

and this is not always the case, but with female comics, especially, they come off like really hard and dirty or they, or they're sheepish. And that doesn't make it either. So I feel like they've got to kind of assert themselves in an aggressive way to try to meet the level of authority that men naturally have from stage and That's why I think a lot of women get real dirty real quick. So you think women are funny in real life Yep, you think women are funny not not as funny as men You think women are funny and you playing characters they can be but usually

But still not as funny as in your life. You would say zero. You've never seen a female standup comic that you thought was correct. OK, but I'm happy to be proven wrong and we all have. I'd love to check that woman out because I'd love to stop saying so. I'm not trying to be a jerk. I'm just saying what appears to me to be the case. Yeah. And I am.

She gets dirty, so I would just follow full disclosure. Yeah. And that, um, she, she gets dirty. So I would just, full full disclosure. Yeah. And that, that shows me crazy, but she's clearly witty and she makes cultural references that sometimes are like, how did you pull that out? But if you surveyed a thousand people and said, who's your favorite comic, 99% would say men. And that's not just because the majority of men are sent up comics. I mean, it might be, but there's a reason 99 percent of men are sent up comics and that's they're funnier than women naturally I think Yeah, I've never I've never thought about that um Yeah, I mean I think the narrative around comedies that it's really hard to be a woman in comedy That's what comedians say but I don't I've never been in that scene. Can you think of a very funny woman?

I'm not trying to put anyone on the spot. Can you think of a very funny woman? I'm not trying to put anyone on the spot. I'm not sure. I know it sounds like I'm just being a huge jerk at this point. No, not up to my head. But it's important to say what seems to be the case, isn't it? I'm trying to find that balance in life. Somebody wrote to me the other day of a text message and they said, hey, my friend moved to Uganda. He's like he started he's he's helping the orphans and the poor.

He's established these wells. He'll be in Stubingville. Could he be on your show? He'd love to promote your thing. And I went, I don't want to interview him. And that's how I said it. Like, I'm not interested. Yes.

Because I wasn't interested. Yes. And I'm never, I'm not great at threading the needle of, thank you so much. At this point, I just, I feel like there's a lot going on to maybe, maybe, but that's not true. Like I just, I'm not interested in having that conversation. if I knew the guy and he was a really good conversationalist I'd be happy to talk about that. Yes. I'm glad you like that. I actually really appreciate it

I know I've told you this before I think for me when I listen to Jordan Peterson and he talks about people are naturally agreeable Naturally disagreeable. I'm naturally very agreeable. I think I am Agreeable or disagreeable. Okay, you know, I think I'm naturally very agreeable. I think I am agreeable or disagreeable. Okay, you don't think so? I'm not saying that I'm naturally very agreeable. So I don't love conflict and I don't love disagreeing. So I actually really appreciate it when people are like, yeah, I don't want to do that. Well, what's funny is maybe I don't seem super agreeable, but the times I've interviewed Matt Walsh, you know who that is. Whenever I'm around Matt Walsh, I just feel like I'm way too enthusiastic.

And while I'm chatting with him, like I don't think I'm usually Matt Walsh, I just feel like I'm way too enthusiastic. And while I'm chatting with him, I'm like, I don't think I'm usually perceived this way, but he's just so dour. Yeah. And I've seen recently get asked about his courage and he did say, you know, I'm mildly courageous and like I grew up, I'm come from a devout Catholic conservative family and went to public schools. We had to learn how to defend our faith, but he also said, I'm naturally very contrarian and I do kind of like trolling people. So he does recognize, he does have the kind of personality.

I like a little bit. I would like people in the comments, let me know who the, who your funniest female standup comedian is. Yeah. I wish I had one that was like clean, but I don't know any female comedians off the top of my head. I think there's like, I have like funny was like clean, but I don't know any female comedians all the time my head I think there's like I like funny female friends that yeah, and I agree with that Yeah, but it's still not as funny as your male friends. I also to qualify what I said by saying I don't find comedians that funny I know that's probably sounds like a pretentious thing to say but it's pretty rare that I watch a comedian

I laugh out loud. Yeah, I love hearing other people laugh. I love this This is why the soundtracks really help. Have you ever watched friends clips on YouTube without the soundtrack? No, is it just they have a whole series of these on YouTube and you're like, wow, you're right. This isn't funny. There's something about that laughter that gets you. So I love watching comedy because I love hearing people laugh even if I'm not laughing out loud. So I think it's

clever. So anyway. Who who is you know who I laughed at a lot? Ricky Gervais is an excellent comedian. He's also an atheist. And I object to many, many things that he says. And I often wouldn't go along with those who would say, look how courageous he is for speaking out against the trans insanity because he does, but then he kind of like walks it back and says,

hey, you do you live your own life. And I'm like, all right, well, either it's insane or it's not insane. And if it isn't insane, you shouldn't be telling people to live their own insanity. I know from my understanding though, he still kind of held the line. Cause I thought he said like, you know,

they're just like everyone else, which is why I can make fun of them like everyone else. Like I feel like he's still. Yeah, he is, you're just like everyone else, which is why I can make fun of them like everyone else. Like, I feel like he's still. Yeah, he is. You're right. He's more courageous than most. And but the first 15 minutes of his Netflix latest standup thing was golden. And then it just dropped off and I wasn't that impressed. But and I'm not necessarily encouraging people to watch it because there is a lot of, you know, really inappropriate and sexual things in there.

But golly, he's funny. And I laughed out loud, found myself laughing out loud. Him, Brian Regan, Norm MacDonald. My gosh, that guy can get super gross, unfortunately. It's really unfortunate because he's so lovely. Like he's so adorable in a way. I mean that in a non-patronizing way. Like he's like your everyman guy.

Like he acts like a bit of a dance and he's just charming. So it's like, you've got this, oh, you're so so charming and then you start speaking sexually and you're like I don't want someone I perceive to be charming and yeah the comedy is so specific because I just cannot get in Norm MacDonald yeah and he died recently and I've been seeing commentary about him and people are like a lot of people think he's the best I think he probably is yeah Wow but, but Brian Regan is just spectacular. I kind of love

Ricky's race. Yeah. Do you know when you just see somebody and you don't know why he's I kind of just love that person? Yeah. And I would love to meet him. I love Christopher Hitchens. Yeah. I just saw speaking Christopher Hitchens. He wrote that

article called Why Women Aren't Funny. He did. Yeah. And he said it was because of evolutionary reasons. He's like, you have no need to be funny. Look at us It's really important and that's so true Like I think if a woman finds a man and finds him hilarious, she probably finds him attractive But I need to find my wife like hilarious to find her attractive. She has many other traits, you know

And is he arguing basically women are beautiful. So that's that may I haven't read the article Honestly, I just heard about it because I started saying this and someone referenced Christopher Hitchens is having written an article on it I haven't read it. Here's a question. What makes people interesting? I find you very interesting Wow. Well, I didn't mean to be what makes people narcissistic because I don't know what I don't know What narcissistic means I know that people keep using the term a lot lately Yes, so we can get into what narcissism means. I know that people keep using the term a lot lately. Yes. So we can get into what narcissism means. What is interesting?

Someone's interesting. I find people who are interested interesting. OK. So like you just spent the last 20 minutes asking Neil all about his life. And you were actually interested. And I just thought, what a wonderful human being who's not so concentrated on his own interior world

and his comfort and needs. Like that's interesting to me. Like you're outward, you know, I like that in people. So GK Chesterton once said, my favorite author, there are no uninteresting subjects, only uninterested people. So everything is interesting. Everything's wonderful. Everything is, but we're just, for whatever reason, we've conditioned ourselves in such a way to not think it's interesting. I think you might be, you might be onto something there because when people's world becomes kind of narrow they become less interesting. I often think my children are trying to remind me how to be human.

Peter ran up to me after Mass the other day. He went, Dad, did you know you could cut your tongue with a single blade of grass? I just did it. Did he say that? That's exactly what he said. I just thought you are a wonderful human being. are in awe of all that surrounds you you're interesting Yeah, kids cuz you're interested if you're not interested Then yeah, you're right. You maybe you've just your whole personality has become truncated and narrow Chester didn't say something like

Adults need to read fairy tales because they need to know like when the door opens There's that there's's a dragon behind it. But he said a kid is riveted the fact that the door opens. There's such a thing as a door and then it opens. I have this, my sister Laura, her oldest son's name Hayden, and one day she was telling him, oh, be careful around the outlet, you know, it's dangerous. And he looked at it and he goes,

mommy, that's not an outlet. That's an inlet. That's like, it's wonderful. That is an inlet. Why don't we call it genius? And he was like, so perturbed about what you were saying. Like mommy, what? So yeah, it's pretty fun.

Uh, reason number 1,312 knots look at pornography. Does that makes you boring? Why? Well, I just like what is looking at the naked bodies of people and an objectifying them? How does that make you interesting? How does that expand you in any way? Well, I think to our point, if we're agreeing, maybe that the more interested

you are, the more interesting you're likely to be. I think pornography makes you interested in a very narrow thing. And it blinds you to the entire rest of reality in a way. I love what you're saying. Like I can't even look at a woman and perceive her to be my sister. All I perceive her is this sexual thing. And so it's like my brain is shut down and I'm unable to perceive the whole rest of the picture, not just in women, but in life.

Everything becomes sexual. All my jokes become sexual. I constantly say things like that's what she said and we all kind of snicker and oh I love what you're saying so much So I have a priest friend and he was telling about the difference between an idol and an icon And what makes an idol an idol is it's exhausted the moment you look at it Like there's no mystery to it So like a pornography is an idol as John Paul the second famously, I'm not seeing too much of the person, but too little. And an icon, like the ultimate sound with the Eucharist. I can see the Eucharist and it just looks like a wafer to me, but I cannot

exhaust it. I could stare at it for an hour, I could stare at it for a hundred years and I don't exhaust it. So that's the difference. Isn't that wild? That's my wife. That's how I feel about my wife. I was sitting in my chair. I brought coffee up to her this morning. She's not feeling well. So she's has difficulty getting down the stairs. So I brought a coffee to her and I sat in my chair and she just started speaking to me and I was like, I know this might sound like I'm saying this to sound like a good

husband and maybe I am, but it's still the case. What I'm about to say. I was so struck by her. I just thought, who are you? Like, I've been living with you for 15, 16 years. I don't have a clue. Like you are so much deeper and more mysterious than I had thought. That's amazing. Everything must be like that. That's so weird. Just uninteresting. Did you tell her that? You know what? She was gently correcting me on something.

I think my wife's a saint, actually. She struggles with an incredible amount of pain and she's she never complains. She's just offering it to our Lord and. Constantly. And she she was gently telling me because I have not been great through her suffering. I wish I could be like I was the strong, silent type who just stood by. But I've just been moaning and upset and like hopeless about the future of like, what does this mean? And you've been sick for so long. And and she's just so lovingly saying like, what do you think our Lord is trying to?

I think he's trying to teach you something through this, but not in an overbearing, awful, thinly pietistic sort of way, but in a real substantial way. And when you see someone carrying their suffering well, that's a person to listen to. If they're not, then maybe there's just spitting cliches. But if they can live suffering well, like my wife does, all of a sudden, be like, OK, like, whoa. Like, imagine if you could go back in time through a time machine

and hang out with like Teresa of Avila. Wouldn't you be like hanging on her every word? That's kind of what I felt like this morning. I'm like, Oh my gosh, like I'm living with a saint. And I was just like captivated by all that. She said, yeah. Now I might forget that this afternoon and be, you know, that probably will. Yes. How did you get there? How does a man come to the point where his wife after you've been married for 16 years, yeah, can come in and sit down and talk to him.

And as he's listening to her, he looks at her. It's very rare that that happens. I mean, most of the time I don't even look at her. That's what's crazy. Sometimes when you look at someone and you're like, oh, my gosh, I haven't looked at you at all. Like for the last two days, I've been hanging out with you, but I haven't looked at you.

Yes. So most of my life is not looking at people around me. Well, let's just bracket that. I just want to honor the fact, though, that it did happen after 16 years of marriage. Yeah. What would be the ingredients as to how that happened? Any idea? It's nothing of my own merit. I think it's just I think I'm just like. I'm like trying to love my wife, and I'm just so desperately aware of the fact that I do not have the fuel

to get there. I don't have it. It's not a matter of just a try. And I just like, there's nothing in the tank. It's like telling me just fly. I'm like, I really, really can't. And that's what it's felt like for so long. And so last night in adoration, that language of John 330, he must grow greater,

I must grow less, became so real to me in that like, not just he must go greater in like emphasis, emphasis, but, like, in me, you need to grow greater and me, like, fuelless, empty, wretched me, it can't do the things you're acquiring of me. So you're going to have to. So it's something about, like, wrestling with that and then just seeing her in her selflessness and her, you know, outwardness she gives of herself to people all the time. Like she's, you know, she won't mind me telling this. I know people might think, aren't I sharing something she wouldn't want to share?

That's not the case. She has her own podcast. She's open about this, right? But she knelt for communion recently and dislocated her knee because of her chronic pain stuff, right? Man, if I dislocated my knee, I would be like, I need to go to the Bahamas for five months and recoup, you know? She just popped it back in and went and held somebody's baby for them. Like, she's just good. So I don't know what it was.

It was just how Lord gave me the grace and I saw her. And I'm just like, it is good. That is a grace. Very good. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah. I think women are beautiful. And if I had to use a word, I want to see if you agree with this, that when a woman is beautiful, feminine, modest,

believes in her own mystery, that's the only way I could say it. I know that sounds esoteric, but if a woman believes in her own mystery of the feminine genius, I think the best word to describe a woman like that is captivating. Like I feel there's something about them,

they just sort of draw me in and their femininity activates my masculinity in a way that it's, I just find it captivating. Like I wanna be a better man. Like I wanna provide, I wanna protect, I wanna be present. Like as a priest, and as a priest, when you're celibate.

I was about to ask that. It's kind of like, I feel like femininity, you know, like the platonic form, like there's this, like, you know, the idea that there's femininity is perfection, the ideal or the form of femininity. You just see women at all the different stages of your life. Now that I'm 40, you know, I have like grade school kids,

you know, I see like a five-year-old little girl, and then you see like them going through puberty, like adolescents, and you see high school and college and Whatever middle-aged older and so there's a I feel like I have an appreciation of the beauty of women across the whole spectrum Of I know you have to love people and individual Cases you can't love humanity in general But uh, you know what I'm trying to say like what I'm saying is a little inchoate But you are saying the first point that they captivating like would you say that? Cameron was captivating like who are we to give us another word for captivating?

I feel that word has been so overused that maybe I don't hear it anymore. It's just drawing you in It's just like pulling you in Yeah, I do. I mean, it's like a divine undertow This is probably a superficial way of thinking of it. But I heard some point at, you know, that that advertisements with women on them will have people stare at those advertisements for like three or four times longer. I forget the exact number. Right. So there's that just beauty, like a physical beauty that captivates us.

But you're talking about something that and much more. Yes, it must be more because. I see that in Kimberly Hahn. Kimberly Hahn is captivating to me. I just I'm just like, who are you? Like, I know you're powerful. I know you're good. Yeah, that's captivating.

Yeah. Yeah. There's a power. Women have a power that I think. Feminism gone awry seeks to rob them of in a way. Yes. But women are powerful and by powerful, I mean, I mean, what Peterson means when he talks about power, I mean, competent, you know, not like bull busting. Not that I think men are afraid of powerful women because they think it means emasculating, but that's not what it means. So that's not how we mean it. Yeah, of course, I think feminism goes wrong if by families, we mean equal rights for women, which it means emasculating, but that's not what it means. So that's not how we mean it. Yeah. Of course, I think feminism goes wrong.

If by feminist, we mean equal rights for women, which it means all sorts of things, but it's either competitive towards men or it's comparative towards men. Well, I think a woman who's embracing her feminine genius doesn't feel like she's in competition with men or that she needs to therefore attack them or that. So therefore there's a freedom to just be a woman. And that's very captivating. It's very beautiful. What is it like being sexually attracted to a woman as a priest? Well, it's I presume you have been at one point.

Yeah. Yes. That never goes away. So it's it's mysterious. Well, first of all, let me just say, I think celibacy is a miracle. Like marriage. Exactly right. That's not humanly possible. I was just gonna say that. Yeah. So I think celibacy is a miracle.

I've said that to my parish and they're like, I'm like, I don't know how anybody does it. I don't know how anybody does celibacy, honestly. Like how does somebody say celibate their whole life? I think it's a miracle. But I also think marriage is a miracle. Like to be with one person your whole life, to get old together, I think that's a miracle.

I think it's super natural It's not natural so I have to say all of that so that doesn't mean there's not a struggle and that's legitimate and real but Yeah, it's constantly Just bringing it to the Lord and help me, you know, and trying to recognize the beauty like that's a beautiful woman. And I'm drawn to her. And that is so helpful, isn't it?

Absolutely. Even as a married man, right? I encounter women who I find myself sexually attracted to and just acknowledging that, like, thank you for this beautiful person. Yes. And that's so good. And then I've been recently reading theology of the body in plain language and just the desire to have like a deeper purity of heart. So however way I've been able to see her with a purity of heart, that there's always more and I could see like more of women.

If I had to this icon idol thing. Yes. I just like even just a little more purity of heart. I could see her even deeper and that there was another pure in heart. There'd be a sense of, yeah, there's even more inexhaustible mystery that I I'm I can't encounter and that's captivating because it's drawing me in if I write like blessed are the pure and hot they shall see they shall see God the mystery like the incomprehensible being

I was like should we pray and you're like, yeah. Yeah, that's I was like, should we pray? And you're like, yeah, yeah, that's yeah. It's unbelievable. Yeah. And this is why sin makes us boring. That's not just a cliché of like repressed frigids who think they have to not have sex or masturbate to God like them or like it's actually true that sin makes you boring and pornography makes you boring. Yeah. If we could come full circle at the very beginning, I asked you.

What makes somebody interesting? And you said, I think one of the things is that they're interested in other people. So it's, it's a kind of paradox. Like if you want people to be interested in, want to look at you, then get interested in looking at other people. Don't look at yourself, but what is sin? Well, as St. Augustine would said, it's curvatus in say in curvatus say to curve in on oneself. Yeah. And that's, I love the image on Dante's Inferno of the devil and he has, you know,

three faces, three mouths and three sets of eyes and he's crying from all of them and he's gnawing on these three traitors for all of eternity. And he's in this ice up to his chest and he's, which he's causing from his own wings and he's trapped and he's sad. I said, I know what that feels like.

Me too. Have you ever had that experience where you felt sad and attacked and stuck and you want to be? That sucks. I've had that. You want to be. Yeah. So it's almost like I'm aware that I can renounce this and choose joy, but I don't want to. I want to stay stuck in it. Sin is so mysterious. It's almost like I'm aware that I could renounce this and choose joy, but I don't want to. I want to stay stuck in it.

Sin is so mysterious. It's gross. You've not had that. I don't know. I mean, I definitely have had the feeling where. It's sort of like a child who wishes to pout and sit in the corner instead of being invited back to the party. That's what I'm talking about. Okay.

That's what I've experienced and still experience at times. Like the bitter fruit. Yeah, almost like my way of having control over others or control over God, which is absurd. Yeah, you're writing me like the bitter fruit of unforgiveness, like I could forgive, but it's so delicious to hold on to. That's right. It hurts something. There is something like that.

I definitely had the feeling of doing something and I hated the fact that I was doing it and I wish I could stop doing it. And so so that's, you know and I wish I could stop doing it and So so that's you know, I want out of this prison st. Paul, right? I don't things I don't want to do That is I don't want to do I keep doing I will save me from this body of death He says body of death. Yes and I've given people for confession for Their penance Romans chapter 8 verse 1 which is the next line which is there is therefore

No condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus There is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. I mean come on none. That's what he says None, I mean a little bit new I Love being Catholic. I love being Catholic. I love being Catholic why it's the best okay just twice that it's like eight seconds why should we Catholic cliches okay Okay. Um, I confession, I don't know how people live without confession. I, I, I'm being totally honest with you. Like if I be honest with you, I would think I would just have terrible self knowledge or I would be on

prescription drugs. I'm just being honest. Like I have done terrible things and I know it and I'm sad about the man I was before I knew the Lord and I'm really sad about things I've done since I've known the Lord Which is so much worse as you know Like when you know Jesus you've tasted the sweetness of his love and you still betrayed him that is like an exquisite pain, right? So I don't know how people live without confession. I just I just don't know how you do it So that alone that alone like magnificent. It's almost like if confession didn't exist would have to invent it Yes, you know like I need to go and tell somebody these things that I've done and I think that happens

there was something I want to see was Madonna she had like a The confession to her or people could call in and just say things they had done that they never told anybody and like Thousands of people did I could be it could be somebody else but okay It was this idea was like a hotline you could just call in and just say what you wanted Yeah, apparently before like, you know IDs on your phones you see who was tons of people did it. I also think tax cab drivers. I've heard a lot of confessions Uber and less a little different because you have like the person's face, you know but I think taxi like I've never used his person again and I think people just sometimes like have never told anyone with

this before but Because I just need to tell somebody, you know Yeah There's a movie that I really like and I want you to see it. What's it cool? It has so this is the problem one of the problems of being a priest and movies Especially like when you're preaching is anytime you mention a movie, you feel like you're condoning everything about the movie and you're saying like, oh, the Catholic church condones. Yeah.

I mean, you can recommend the Bible without condoning the execution of the God man. That's the worst thing that ever happened. Yes. So it has kind of two men kiss in one scene and then there's like a quick like five second kind of a Man's bear behind with the okay, so just full disclosure that this is not the movie's called the forgiven

okay, and I saw this movie and it just like it's for adults to be clear and it Like stay with me for a while and I've discovered from my friends that I'm kind of a pretty tough critic Which I don't think with movies I just want to see good movies and I think a lot of them are pretty terrible But I remember just being haunted by this movie. I would like you to see how old is it? Who's in very recent probably come out in the last year. Okay, maybe two years It has I think Ralph finds I don't

Know there's people who know all the actors. Yes, my son's like that. He knows all their names. I don't know any actors. I don't know why I ask. Yeah, there's people who know all the actors. Yes, my son's like that. He knows all their names. I don't know anybody. I know who Bruce Willis is. I know who Tom Cruise is. Yeah, I won't get into this because I've gone into a different show, but I watched a show called Old, a movie called Old by M. Night Shyamalan and it broke me.

I was on an airplane sobbing and The Lord was ministering to my heart. I would recommend that. I've seen it's horrific. What broke you about it? The woman in the cave. Did you see that? What happens? OK, spoiler.

Sorry, Neil, you have to hear this again. Well, I mean, what's so beautiful about it, right, is there's this woman who takes great pride in her appearance and in being hot. You know, that's probably how she would phrase it. She's flirtatious. She wears immodest clothing and she's getting old. Right. Who am I now? Who am I now?

And she believes herself to be ugly. And so she buries herself into this. You've seen it into the cliff, not in the cliff, but into the in this cave on a beach and they try to get her to come out. But she's like, don't look at me. Don't look at me. She ends up killing herself. It's horrific.

It's horrific. But that broke me apart. And I don't like movies. I get bored really easily in movies. It takes a lot to captivate me. I'm I've bought several movies on Amazon and I've watched the first ten minutes and I'm just over it, but I like the idea of a movie and wanting to like a movie.

But but anyway, did you watch that that particular bit I'm talking about? Well, I'm like you in that way. So it's kind of like half watching the movie and doing other things that you're watching movies because you're I watched the big short. I thought that was excellent. Never seen about the housing market crash back in 2000 and whatever. Eight or something. And then I watched Argo with Ben Affleck.

Ben Affleck. I like movies with a lot of rhetorically vigorous dialogue. I like a lot of dialogue that that captivates me. That's why I like this. Like I could watch a three hour conversation that was honest, but I can't watch explosions and car chases and bikinis. It bores me. Yes.

What do you think is the most Catholic non-Catholic film? Oh, well, maybe, uh, let me Zerub. Is that what it's called? Okay. Yeah. Yeah, certainly. Okay. What do you think? Well, um, I've asked a fair amount of people this question for me, a movie. I can't recently it was a quiet place. Exodus 90.

You've heard of them, haven't you Neil? I have. Well, the guys behind Exodus 90 have started Exodus 21. They've caught, they're calling it a 21 day restart. So for 21 days, you along with the friends you invite, pray and read through the first two chapters of Corinthians while practicing disciplines such as 20 minutes of prayer every day Abstaining from unnecessary screen time that doesn't include points with the coin us obviously Abstaining from meat on Fridays and fasting until 4 p.m. On each weekday

You can take this short opportunity to introduce your brothers cousins cousins, co-workers, fellow parishioners and even your neighbours. Be kind of weird if you didn't know them. Just assume they're Catholic and want to torture themselves for 21 days. On how to live like Christ and prepare I did Exodus 90 once and I lived like a boss monster for the first 31 days and then failed miserably so Exodus 21 sounds super great at this yeah I would have crushed it although probably because 21 days was the goal I would have like faded out around the 11th day I don't know Exodus 90 dot com slash mat go check them out to get started people who've done it just says it really rejuvenates their prayer life and helps them.

Exodus90.com slash Matt, link is in the description. Click it and check them out. And that starts January? No, you can start whenever. So Exodus90 is going to be starting in January. So this 21 day can be like a little test. I see, I see, I see. But honestly for me, I'd just do the 21 days.

So you can do it whenever you want. Go check it out right now. Exodus90.com. It's a great way to grow in friendship too, with people in your community. Check them out. Also want to say thank you to Halo. Sorry.

Halo is a really great prayer and meditation app. It is just phenomenal. Whenever I talk about Halo, I'm always impressed that a Catholic group has been able to create one of the greatest apps in the history and catalog of current apps. It has sleep stories, it allows you to pray the rosary. It even has Mark Wahlberg praying the rosary.

So you can pray with Mark Wahlberg, which is pretty cool. I just got back from a trip to Africa and I'm really bad at sleeping on airplanes. So I listened to sleep stories and people read the Bible to you and stuff like that. It's really, really good good Hello dot com slash Matt Fradd and Also when you sign up on the website you get three months for free

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point I will quit the YouTube channel, sell my house and go live in the forest somewhere Thanks newspapers and go paper newspaper. Yeah, and just read all of the newspapers that I put together. Thanks so much a quiet place I don't you seen it a quiet place. Yeah, you've seen it. Yeah, I think it's just the gospel so excellent I think it's just the gospel. There's an example of a strong woman. Oh Unbelievable, right and a strong man. Oh, unbelievable. Right? And a strong man. Yes. Oh yeah. And he said that John Krasinski, he said that the movie for him is not a horror film.

It was about what you'd be willing to do for your family. Yeah. That's what the movie was really about. But I mean, it's just like self-gift from the father. Remember the scene where she goes down? I mean, she just doubts her father's love. When he's like, dad told us to stay here. And she says to him, he's coming back for you.

He's not coming back for me. He's coming back for you. Like when Jesus says, I will not leave you orphans. And then when she goes downstairs and she sees like all of the cameras that he did to protect her, he sees all of the, um, yeah, the hearing aids, like everything he did for her. Like I protect you. I love you. And she didn't know any of it. She doubted all of it. And then of course, at the end he gives his life spoiler alert sorry if you haven't seen it but just the whole thing it's like I was like that was just the gospel that movie ended I turned to my brother Matt and I said that's the best movie I've seen in five years like the time

it was over and then a lot of people think it's Shawshank Redemption yeah it's been a long time since I've seen that but that was a good movie but he's a fairly Christological figure. The main character. What do you do on a day off? If you could be selfish about your time. I don't mean selfish. I just mean if you could re recoup and just have some self care, as they say, what do you do on a day off? Yeah. So I want to do some praying and then I want to exercise a little

bit. And then my thing is I go down to a coffee shop. I don't drink coffee, but I love coffee shops and there's a, there's a cafe I found it's downtown. It doesn't have a lot of sound like a, and it has a lot of natural lights, a ton of glass and I'll bring like seven books with me. I'll bring a backpack full of books and then I'll just spend like three hours there. I'll eat stuff. I'll drink a lot of green tea, iced green tea, and I will read from like, I don't know what I'll eat stuff. I'll drink a lot of green tea, iced green tea, and I will read from like, I don't know what I want to read until I sit down.

And I'm one of those people who's always reading like five books at once. And I'll just read from like three or four books. Did you take me to this place? I think when I was with you. Probably not. It's kind of new in my life. And then sometimes I'll do island hopping.

Like I will go to a coffee shop. I'll read for two hours and then I'll get up and I'll drive to another coffee shop. And the information is like mulling around in my brain. I might call my sister Cindy or like a priest friend and then I'll just go to the next place and sit down and nice read some more. So I just like to hear I like having new ideas in my brain. So I agree. Good. And do you find I think a lot of people don't read like podcasts have replaced reading or

YouTube videos have replaced reading but for you you still I Love paper and I I I'm a visual learner. So like what if I read something in a text? I'm like that I can't do audible and I read incredibly slowly and I finally figured out why why Took me took me years. So I have a priest friend. His name is father building squeeze quite smart And one day we were talking and I was asking him some historical question. He reads history a lot And he's and he's like, I don't really know he's like, you know I have kind of a general outline of that and he reads a lot of history He said but you know, I just read history for fun. I don't read it to teach it

And when he said that sentence, something crystallized in my brain. I read it for fun, not to teach it. That sentence, because I read everything as if I were going to teach it. I know it's because I taught high school for four years as a priest. Everything I read, I basically, I didn't know I'd do this.

I put it down, like, how would I describe this to a junior in high school? Because I had to do that for a long time. And so that's why I read so unbelievably slow. I say it's because I don't want to just have said like I read it. I was like, how would I be able to explain this to another person? That's why you're such a good homilist. Like you are a teacher. Thank you. Yeah. Praise the Lord. Yeah. You want to digest it. Yeah.

I read slowly. Uh, it depends. I guess. Yeah, I do read slowly. Sometimes I have to give myself permission to miss things. Yes. I can't, I wish I could do that. But when I say that I'm talking about like really bad sci-fi novels. Okay. Yeah. Not like Aquinas or Dostoevsky. Cause sometimes you hit something like in the theology of the body or the sumo. And you're like, I don't know what you're saying. Yeah. And then sometimes if you keep reading, that's such a wonderful thing to say out loud and just to acknowledge.

I wonder if sometimes we're just afraid to admit we don't know things and we just rush past it because we're afraid of our own incompetence. But sometimes when you just stop and go, I don't know what this means. That's a really good thing to. Warner Midge out there, who's one of my heroes in the intellectual life, he said to grow and intellect, you should always be reading things a little bit above you. And I've also learned, I'm saying something from the Owl's is hoot.

I also find that really endearing about Jordan Peterson. Yeah. Yeah, I just feel like he'll say things like, I've been thinking about that for a long time and I don't, and he'll just tell you like when he's, I don't know what to think about that. I've been thinking about that for a long time. And I don't, and he'll just tell you like, when he's, I don't know what to think about that. I've been thinking about it for a long time. And I don't know.

Here's where I'm at. But it's just too, but you're like that. I feel like you were just telling me about a debate that happened and you're like, I'm not really sure if I understand what you're saying. For those at home that Jacob, Imam, Trent Horn debate, it's like, I don't, like Scott Hahn came up to me at the conference, he's like, what did you think?

And I'm like, I don't know. And you were there. Yeah, and I don't say, I don't like Scott Hahn came up to me at the conference. It's like, what did you think? And I'm like, I don't know. And you were there. Yeah. And I don't say I don't know in a profound way. Like, oh, wow, you must be thinking this at a deep level. No, no, no. I don't know what the words they were saying meant. Like what the speculation and I'm like, I don't know what I guess. I guess I got to go back and listen to it. Yes. It's a scary thing when you encounter two people

you deeply respect for their intellect, going at it, both of them think they're 100 percent right. And you you would love to side with either of them because you respect both of them almost equally, maybe, and not really know what to do because you don't understand. Yeah, I think that's intellectual humility is an important thing. And one thing that's helped me in my life is I think I'm just like anyone else. I could be given to maybe thinking I'm smarter than him. I don't, that's such a,

something I struggle with too much because I did terrible at school growing up. So that sort of idea that you're not anyway. Um, I went to, to seminary at St. Minerad and so it's in a town of a hundred people. And I just met monks who were brilliant, so well-rounded, you know, like a scripture scholar, those eight languages lives in the middle of nowhere. Nobody's going to know who they are. And they just, you know,

you'd be eating lunch with them. And that's very humbling. When you meet somebody who's intellect far outstrip yours and they're more humble than you are. that's very convicting. Because when you get to seminary, there's like a real excitement about like, I'm going to learn things. I want to learn Greek and I'm going to learn all these amazing things. And I remember the director of my seminary gave a conference and it was actually amazing. And his first conference was on Mary as a theologian. I felt like Mary was the greatest theologian, this teenage Jewish girl. She pondered all these things in her heart, as the scriptures say.

And so he had a line in there, something like, so if in your study of theology, it doesn't make you more loving, more service oriented, more humble, then you're not studying the God who was love. And it was like, this is getting back. We're going full circle to interested, interesting again, because I find that way about I'm like that way about Scott harm. You know, I don't care. I said I love him and I don't care who knows it.

I just love that man. I see his humility. Like I brought Cameron Batusi, who I've had on the show before runs a Protestant YouTube channel. Okay. I brought him over to his house and Cameron's talking about different arguments and probably wants to go back and forth with Scott. And he was talking about maybe the contingency argument or something, and he said,

and what's the contingency argument of Cameron Batoussi? In other words, he was saying like, how did you come to be? What's, tell me about you. He's just so interested. Yes. That's humility. It's, if you're someone who's interested, that's a great sign of humility.

Yeah, and I love what you're saying. I, one of my favorite book is Orthodoxy by GK Chesterton. Yeah. And I love what you're saying. I want my favorite book is orthodoxy by GK Chesterton, which is I understand he wrote years before he became Catholic. Yeah. I think it's one of the best Protestant when he wrote that intellectual. He must've been Anglican. Okay. He wrote, it's like the best intellectual invitation to the Catholic faith. And he wasn't Catholic when he wrote it or CS Lewis, you know, because for me what that says is grace has to move your will and grace is

mysterious. And there's something in this book, I think it's by Ryan and his topping his book on Augustine. He says for the classical tradition, the, the person you want to be was the sage, but in the Catholic tradition, the person you want to be was the saint. Like I have a Catholic grade school. I want to have a great little Catholic school, but we cannot deny that there are Catholic saints who never learned how to read.

And they're saints. They're in heaven for all of eternity. That's the goal. That's the goal. So if this is an authentic Catholic school and the ultimate fruit we're trying to bear in the lives of our graduates is holiness, then there's obviously being Catholic

is very intellectual to thinking man's religion. But nevertheless, we can't deny the fact that holiness is more important. And so for all of your intellectual gifts, all right, can you love, is it your intellect at the surface of truth? I think Pope Benedict's the same way. Like obviously it's staggeringly intelligent, but in all of his writings, you just get the sense like, I just want you to understand. I've had a lot of people that are really good to me another man. His name is Tom Mars great man And he teaches in Arizona when I was when I was a theology teacher as a priest

He was like kind of my mentor Really really smart guy went to Stanford studied physics and then was a Dominican for five years and left and got married And I think when the high school first hired him, he taught physics and theology real sharp, dude. But one of the things he said to me is he said, one of the worst things a student can say to you is you're really smart. Cause what they could be saying beneath that is nobody knows what you're talking about.

And that's not the point of teaching. That is a really insightful point. The point of teaching is not so that your students think you're smart. The point of teaching is that they learn what they're supposed to learn. You know that I think like the person who exemplifies this ability to digest very difficult information and spit it out without diluting the truthfulness of it is C.S. Lewis. Oh, yes. You read C.S. Lewis and you get the feeling that people could be with him at the pub and feel so comfortable with him, even though he was brilliant. And

his brilliance was shown in that he could break down these very difficult, complex topics. I love what you're saying. I think once knowledge that the service of over truth or knowledge that the service of love, it's how you don't become too esoteric in your language, become kind of like an ivory tower. And I would say analogously, the way that you can work for the Catholic church for 20 years and not become the way that you can work for the Catholic Church for 20 years and not become weird, is that you're a missionary. So whatever the intellectual life,

like talking to regular people is to the intellectual life as mission is to working for the church, and that it makes you not go to the extremes. In other words, you're an academic who can only write for other academics. You're someone who works for the Catholic Church who has a curious inability to talk to like regular people at the airport. Do you see what I'm saying?

I do, but I also think some people just have a lack of social skills that isn't their fault. And sometimes that goes hand in hand with being super brilliant. Okay. Okay. I see what you're saying. I mean, I love when I meet people like yourself who are clearly intelligent and also super relatable. And I could, you know, what I love is when I meet someone like yourself and I'm like, my parents would be so comfortable around you and they would love you. Right. That's because and they're not super into the faith. I mean, really. I mean, they are a little bit. But but then there's other people I know who I think they feel very uncomfortable

around. They feel judged by or something. I mean, I don't know. Yeah, I hear that. But then, yeah, I mean, there are people who are super brilliant and, uh, you know, a little weird. And I think it's kind of cause they're super brilliant. Do you think? I think there's probably some truth to that. Not that you should settle and be like, well, I guess I'm just brilliant. Not good at social skills. I'm not going to try, but yeah, I mean, social skills is probably a kind of language and it's maybe just a

language that doesn't come as natural to them I like that other languages Father Gregory pine is an example of someone who's very brilliant and also very relatable and social and he knows the language of communicating with anybody It seems that guy I've never met him before just seen him on your show is you to we get on so world-class teacher that guy thinks in crystal Guy is the lucidity of his mind. That is a clear thinker. You know who else is like this? Jimmy Aiken. When I'm with Jimmy and I find myself trying to express a thought to him,

I sound like a two year old does to me. I just, I just said the same thing to someone else. I'm pretty sure it was impressive. But I'm like, I remember reading a book that Jimmy wrote and somebody else wrote the forward. I can't remember. And they said, we used to call him the Terminator, which is an, it's a very apt description. Cause in like debates,

I don't know why anyone would debate Jimmy. Yeah, he just debated, who's that Bart Ehrman? And Jimmy came for blood and got it. He debated Bart Ehrman. And destroyed him. I and got it. He debated Bartirman and destroyed him. I see that. I know that's used often like destroyed whatever, but no, he absolutely eviscerated.

It was in person to in San Diego. So that's nice. I think only atheists could debate Jamaican because to debate Jamaican, you could have no fear of God. You are bringing a spoon to a knife fight like the man. You're bringing a spoon to a knife fight. Like the man is he bringing a what to a knife? I mean, come on. Yeah. You know, is this true? Trent Horn told me once that he does, I don't know what it's called. When you two step, there's square dancing. He's going to the calls. Yeah. He does that. Yeah.

He's a very interesting. He's a very interesting guy. Like he he wears comic book t-shirts. He reads comic books. He watches sitcoms. He listens to audio books on astrophysics in adoration because he maybe he's got such a I don't want to speak for him, but maybe his mind is so active that he needs that in silence. But he also understands that he's worshiping the God of creation.

So why not listen to him like? And he's like into square dancing and. He's just so unique. I love him. I'm so glad he exists. I love it. This is one of my I keep so glad he exists. I love it. This is one of my I keep saying this and I'll keep doing it. But my favorite parts of my job is meeting people that I didn't know existed yesterday. And now because I know them, I know the world's better than I thought it was yesterday.

Like I was wrong yesterday in my assessment of the world because I didn't know you existed. It's like when Neil came in today, I'm like, Neil, you guys, the world just the world just got better. There's so many good people. Amen. The scoundrels as well, but like I tend to be more pessimistic at times, especially given the current state of things. So when I meet people, I'm like, oh my gosh, you've been living every year that I've been alive.

You've been alive and you've got this little community and your wife and you and your kids. And wow, the world's better. This is I didn't realize it was this good and they're just doing good I love the analogy of a family is like a Noah's Ark you know you kind of wall it in there and yeah, and then one day you unlock leash the fruitfulness of it that doesn't mean your kids can't leave the house for But you know like when Catholic parents are really just intentional to formation whether they homeschool or not But you know yeah, and they're just raising up little saints at home And then one day they're gonna release these kids in the world and they are

Speaking of Chesterton the most extraordinary thing in the world is an ordinary man his ordinary wife and their ordinary children Amen Yeah, I would love to have met Chesterton. Yeah. Oh, what do you think that would have been like? Well, I think he was brilliantly witty, and funny. I think the most underrated thing about Chesterton is I think he's a first-rate, like world-class philosopher. Like an incredibly penetrating and logical thinker. But since he's like the Prince of Paradox and he loves turn of phrases, I think people, if you totally misunderstand him, he's like the prince of paradox and he loves turn of phrases I think people if you totally misunderstand think he's a trickster exactly like if you don't know what he's saying

You think he's like a sophist, which is the ones right? He's precisely not he's like no no no I'm not that and so I think that's and when you're that clear of a thinker because like What you're saying immediately came to him and the weakness your argument immediately came to him that he's gonna now debunk it in 12 different ways with turns of phrases, because it's so clear to him like, oh my friend, do you just see what you did? So I bet it would be really delightful to talk to him. And I think you could leave him and have a sense

like that's a really smart guy. But I think you would think that's a really delightful guy. I think what a great quality is when you can leave somebody And the most dominant feeling you get from them, but their sense is that they're good Yeah, regardless how smart they are or accomplished or that you just think like that is that person is good I'm looking for this one lion golly. I wish I had my glasses. Oh, hey there. He Lewis has a essay on cheese Have you read it? No. Oh, I see.

This is an essay on cheese. Well, I don't know. Let me see. You keep saying interesting things. Well, I look it up. Neil, am I getting my mic on accident? Are you hearing that? It's not too bad. OK, all right. This is this is such a great line. And I wish I could find the the article. Let me see if I can find it. Hilaire Belloc's children's.

I've not read him. Everyone tells me I need to. Well, he just has a children's book and the title that's something like the girl who didn't shut the door and died. It's all of these like delightful stories about children not doing what their parents were supposed to ask them. And then they die horrible deaths. Wow. I love it. I can't wait to read it. All right. So here's here's what he says. my forthcoming work in five volumes, The Neglect of Cheese

in European Literature, is a work of such unprecedented and laborious detail that it is doubtful if I shall live to finish it. Some overflowing from such a fountain of information may therefore be permitted to sprinkle these pages. I cannot yet wholly explain the neglect to which I refer. Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese. Virgil, if I remember right, refers to it several times, but with too much Roman restraint and on he goes. But crikey. So much

fun. Lewis is one of those guys who I... That's Chesterton. You said Lewis earlier. Oh, sorry. I beg your pardon. That was... Thank you. Thanks who I met. That's Chesterton. You said Lewis earlier. Oh, sorry. I beg your pardon. That was, thank you. Thanks for the correction. That was Chesterton. Gotcha. I just read Lewis's conversion story. What's it called again? His story, um, surprised by joy. Yeah. Yes. In it, he talks about encountering Chesterton for the first time and speaks highly of him. Here's why I think Chesterton is a man for our time. Utterly brilliant. And he would debate, I think it's H.G. Wells.

Yep. Okay. And there were stories where he would make fun of him and he'd laugh louder than anyone in the play. So he made lots of jokes about slugging. What if the man in England could stand up and offer a seat to three ladies? One time he wasn't in the war for some reason

and the woman said, why aren't you in the war? And he said, ma'am, if you look to the other side of me, I'm actually there at the front. Like, he makes jokes about himself he carried his sword like his and a gun with him like ever since the day got married a really interesting guy you know wrote an essay a day for like 11 years sort of like 4,000 essays and when he was hired they said you can talk about anything but politics and religion he said what else is there and all I ever wrote about was politics and religion see he's just a man of many talents. But, um, I think he combines first rate intellectual

life, obviously do super interested in things and people and the faith and just utterly, profoundly joyful. He's just such a joyful warrior. Have you read the Lord of the Rings? Yes. You know, Tom Bombadil? Yes, you know Tom Bombadil. Yes, I Love Tom Bombadil. Me too. In my sense of Tom Bombadil, as he's this like Happy-go-lucky warrior who's just kicking the crap out of bad people as he like goes around and sings and hits things. So Chesterton was like that. He's Chestertonian. Interesting. Like I'm just destroying heresy So I'm like the hammer of heretics. Well, I'll laugh. But I'm only destroying the heresy and I will laugh with the heretic Because he's my brother and I love him. You know? Yeah. I think that is, you know, we've all seen on the internet, people who we agree

with intellectually, but you know, the way they're going about it, you're just calling. Have you ever seen, um, uh, what's it called the big Lebowski? Yes. Am I wrong? Am I wrong? No, Walter, you're not wrong. You're just an asshole. That line. I know I've fallen into that trap many a time here on YouTube, maybe even today, right?

But like, that's what you're talking about. It's like, yes, you're right. But is it that way? Is that kind of what you say? Yeah, absolutely. That's whenever I start getting like that, any people around to be like Walter. No Walter. You're not wrong I feel like Cameron is probably one of those people in your life my bride. Yeah She do you know her well can I open this on you can do you know who I don't I wish I knew her better We're gonna go we're gonna go hang out. I have a drink with her. I'm hoping I can pray over her

Please do so I'd be so honored. She'd love that. She doesn't know that. So she would love it. Yeah. We'll, we'll go see her. Yeah. She's drinking. Please. Yeah. Um, yeah. Chesterton, uh, did he ever write about his relationship with his wife? He did. Didn't he say something like marriage is like a jewel to the death. I think he said getting married is like going to war. That's what he said. It's true. How is that true? Okay.

That's a thank you. Thank you for calling me out there. Let me think about that. Is it true? How is getting married like going to war? Can you can you give fact check to us of whether in fact Chester didn't said getting married is like going to war. Whatever.

I think jewel to the death. We're misquoting him. And then well, I think marriage is a duel to the death or miss quoting him and then well I think marriage is a duel to the death which no man of honor should decline. Oh Yeah, that's good. I stand corrected Well, I think there's the superficial way and it's a jewel to the death and then maybe something more substantial, right? So it's superficial in that two people with desires of their own Coming under one roof and trying to harness that desire into

one thing is a very difficult thing and often our desires conflict and then we get grumpy with each other. So there's that kind of superficial way of it being a duel maybe. But then the more deep thing is maybe it's the false self at war with the other false self. I don't know. Is it a jewel to the death? Maybe it's maybe I don't know what it means. Maybe I immediately went to this second interpretation that you gave it's maybe I don't know what it means. Maybe I immediately went to this, this second interpretation that you gave. I didn't know. What was it? What did I say?

I don't think I said self. Okay. It's a duel with yourself. Like if I submit to this woman, I'm going to, I'm going to have to die. Honestly, I'm afraid that my wife will listen to this podcast because she'll be flattered about the nice things I've said about her, but I might be being a jerk to her in the future while she watches this and I'll have to acknowledge Yeah, I know I said I should stop being a jerk But I think that's one of your endearing qualities is you're very honest. You're a jerk to you

I mean that you're honest and some knowledge is a delightful thing. I How does one get self-knowledge? I Don't know. I think I know, but I have a I have a, you know, sometimes you'll tweet. Do you tweet? Do you have a Twitter? Very, very, very. I don't anymore.

Someone else runs it for me. Back when I did, I came up with this line that I thought if I'm ever quoted in the future, I think this is worth quoting. What was it? The one the wonderful thing about self-knowledge and growing in self-knowledge is that no matter what anybody else says or thinks about you, it pales in comparison to the truth you already know. Like, there's nothing you can say about me that I don't know much worse

about, you know, myself. Yeah, I receive what you're saying. I would say that in my experience, part of the ways we learn who we are is by just living life and loving people. And then they reflect back to us. Amen. Who we are. So, you know, like, oh, you're really good at that. Or you have a propensity for that. So that's how you learn things. Marriage does that, baby.

Yeah. So so there is that. So it comes about. But I think you are the one. Although I think you do have a gift for you have a kind of a natural distrust of your own Motivation I do and that's good or virtuous or not, but I do have that I would say it's like all things I'd say in principle. It's not a bad thing. We have a natural distrust of our own, but we could probably take it too far But yeah, I think you more than your average bear have a sense of Today you were talking about I hope you don't mind me share this on camera

We just spoke at a conference together and they give you a stipend and you you received a stipend and you looked at it And you said well, this is too much. I should give it back You're like I'm gonna give back but I'm gonna say a loudly someone here's the things I'm humble But just I think you immediately your brain was saying yeah, I just this, maybe father thinks I'm saying that like as a false humility. Yeah. Or so I'm going to say it out loud. But the joke's kind of acknowledging that, you know, like even if I gave the money back, but in front of everyone, who's I really doing that for? Exactly.

Yeah. So I did give the money back, by the way. Are you serious? Yeah, of course. But I acknowledge it. So now I get no credit for it. I just 100 percent. I was whatever they pay me. I I acknowledge it. So now I get no credit for it. I just 100 percent I was whatever they pay me. I did not deserve. Let me tell you that. I mean, my talk should have been an hour.

It was 30 minutes with 30 minutes of Q&A because I didn't prepare well enough. I can't believe that. I'm I'm really impressed. And I'm not going to brought it up. Yeah, no, I'm the one who said it. No, you know, here's why. And I just I want to know,

has there ever been a Catholic speaker who said, you know, I just discerned. I think the Lord is saying you should not pay me. Like, I hope there has been someone. But I just think like we're all very good at discerning what the Lord thinks when it's within our financially best interest, you know, like I'm just so afraid of justifying my crap. So I work against it. So I heard a talk three or four years ago about becoming a Catholic hack,

you know, and this person wrote a great article and they were like, you know, like the tattooed Latin mask going guy or the the whatever. There was a ton of things. And as soon as I read that article, I called Stephen Villain quit youth conferences seriously. Yeah. It was like 2019. I'm like, I can't do it anymore. For a couple of reasons.

One, there's bound to be another middle-aged Caucasian dude who can talk about sex that isn't because I'm filling his place. Right? How many Australians? Wouldn't you be Australian? I was also getting older. And then you also like, then you encounter people,

you're like, you probably should have quit a while back, right? Cause you're 82 and you're still speaking to you, and you've just found a good thing. And I just I'm afraid of becoming that. I'm afraid of this becoming that, which is why I teeter on the edge constantly burning everything down. But then I regret it because someone came up to me and this is so funny, Neil, you're like this, someone in a live chat, live stream, you must have been here, I think,

because they were asking about should they, how do they know when they should propose to their wife because they're not financially stable. And I'm like, do it now. Do it now. He did it then. And then I met him and his fiance. And he asked if I could come to the wedding. And then I met another kid who said, because of our episode on homeschooling, and this is Steve Rommelsberg, the guest, it was his brilliance, no doubt. And I'm saying that to be humble. He told his parents, let's, let's kind of homeschool. And so they homeschooled him and then five other families followed. And then they started a co-op and 15 other families joined this year.

He said that was all because of this episode that he heard. So praise God, I do believe that our Lord uses my bullshit as manure for the growth of many, even that and the good I do and the good my guests do. Um, if I could just acknowledge something here, you made a point earlier about knowing that certain people exist in the world and just, uh, I, I've never, I'd never heard of Steven Rommelsberg. I just saw him on your show and I, it was utterly delightful. Isn't he wonderful? He recommended a book on,

by a guy named Henry T. Edmondson on John Dewey. And I went and bought it and read it. And I was like, that book was amazing. And anyway, he's just like a fountain of, I love listening to people who I'm like, that's what an educated person sounds like. See, but that's what's happening now. People are listening to you right now

and you're inspiring them. So I'm so honored and blessed. So these are the two halves of my mind honored and blessed to have this show I love doing it. There's another part of me That's like burn the whole friggin thing down and go like work at a bookstore in downtown Steubenville And I'd be miserable in a second if I did that I think you and I have We're similar in that way. Yeah. Yeah, I do have what is that? Piss and vinegar so, it could be that. Patrick Lanchione has something called a widget.

Ever heard of this? No. It's like different kind of work styles. And I think it stands for wonder, inventiveness, discernment, galvanizing, empowerment and tenacity. I know, just bear with me. And the idea is like you love two of them, you're pretty good two of them,

two of them you don't like. So mine are wonder and galvanizing. I love big ideas, I love thinking of things. My parish could do this, my parish could do that. And I'm also good at galvanizing, get people excited about it. Like we should do this, right? So I'm terrible at tenacity.

Like the first time we hit it in a roadblock, I'm like forget everything I said, just abandon all hope. So that's just how I get it. What are we gonna have for life, Father? hit in a roadblock I'm like forget everything I said just a man and all hope what are we gonna do for life father? Hope! Like it's been going well. So what wonder though I think that's part of it I don't know about you like you're trying to reimagine the Catholic life every week like am I really loving Jesus? Yeah. Am I doing this? Is anybody doing this? At least I can only control myself. Should we move to Sri Lanka?

We should. Should we? Yeah. So I don't know. Is that part of it? Ah. I think it's part of my idealism. Yeah.

My melancholic side. So I'm calling that wonder, like big ideas. And yeah, that's hugely me. Big ideas. What I don't have is follow through. And you know what you and I can do? We can either grow in virtue or hire assistance. And we both hired

assistance. Yeah, which helps. Oh, I need people like me, too, like Neil crushes things consistently. I'd get a great idea. Do it for three weeks and then get over it. I do that constantly. That's why I have to get I have to be suspicious of my new

enthusiasms for spiritual devotions. Because as soon as I feel that in me, like, I'm going to be the guy who prays this thing every day. I need a prayer book and I'm going to carry that prayer book around. It's going to become really tatted and old. And everyone's going to this is going to be my thing, my thing. It's like I'm trying to find security in things I shouldn't find security in. That's part of it.

But it's also just I get really enthusiastic and then I get bored. That's my life. And I've done trying to start. I agree. I am done trying to stop getting enthusiastic about things because I seem incapable of being able to do that. So what I'm doing now is trying like when I notice that being like, Whoa, they're Betsy, just, you know, what's going to happen soon. So just go easy.

Do you think a lot of people are like that or is it just a specific temperament? I don't know, but you like that. You just said, it's shocking how similar I am to that. Is it give us an example or so you and I know Melanie Pritchard love her, love her amazing woman. And I remember being in college, maybe just a little older, and we'd be talking about pro-life stuff. And I'd be in a group of people, and we'd be talking about possible things we could do. And I would get, I'd be like, you know what we should do?

I'd get fired up about something. We should have a magazine. We should call it Mad Max Magazine based on St. Maximin and Colby, and he's upset. So I'm like, it's all those ideas. And people around me nod at their heads, get excited, because I'm good at wondering, galvanizing. And get all the people excited. And the next day Melanie will call me about like, okay

So what are we gonna do about that? And I was like what? Like everything you were saying or said the meeting I'm like, oh, yeah, that's me. Like let's just I was just thinking things are Let's get a chai tea. It was just like hanging out. I mean like literally I would just get yeah, never mind So I've learned that as a as a've been a boss before, I supervise people. And I had to learn very quickly when I walk into an employee's office and I had an idea, there were some things that I wanted them to do

and there were times when I was just thinking out loud. And I had to be super clear like, hey, just to be clear, I'm just thinking out loud. Yes, I do the same thing. So I'm an external processor, just thinking out loud, I'm not saying we're gonna do this. I'm like, okay. Yes. Yes. Yes thinking out loud. I'm not saying we're gonna do this I'm okay good and because the first time I went in there and we should be doing this or what if why don't we? Why are we doing this as a way to support parishes?

You know this idea and then you come back a week later The person's like father been working on that thing. Oh And it's kind of embarrassing we don't remember the thing they're talking about Yeah, you're so excited about last week. I'm like, oh, I'm much on a much simpler level. One thing I do is talk everybody into watching a movie late at night. And then I go to bed. I find everyone's like, all right, let's do it like I'll have like three beers in me. And I'll be like, what if we just watch the whole second season of The Office?

I'm like, shut up. Like, no, come on, let's do it. And it was like, all right. Half way through the first episode, I'm like, all right, I'm going to bed. I didn't know that about me until my best friend, Todd Marp in Canada and my wife, like you do it all the time. I love that. So speaking of self-knowledge, right. Being open to the mirroring back of people in your life. Like, you got to think like that's why Trump's hair looked the way it did.

I forgive me. I don't mean to pick on people, but maybe he didn't have anybody in his life. He could be like, you know, like maybe that doesn't look so good. I don't know. I don't mean to pick on Trump or anybody. I guess we need people in our life who have the freedom to criticize us and for us to hear

that. Yeah, it's amazing how you still learn things about yourself as you get older and older and older. You're like, I do do that. Thank you for pointing that out to me. What's also nice though, is not just the criticisms, but when people really who you trust are affirming you, because I think 99% of the things people affirm me

on I dismiss, but I trust you. And when you affirm me, especially when people affirm you on specific things, you know, it's not just a general, Hey, you're a nice person. It's almost like a, you do this thing and it's interesting to me. And I kind of like that. Oh, yeah. I was praying recently with Psalm one 39. Okay. And in it, uh, the Lord says, um, the Psalmist says, David, um, with all my ways, you are familiar. That's what he says to the Lord with all my ways,

you are familiar. And I just love that to the Lord with all my ways you are familiar. And I just love that. Like the Lord knows everything about us. Like the quirkiness. He's not surprised as I understand. We don't know where thumb prints come from fingerprints because even identical twins don't have the same. They think maybe it's caused by like when you're touching the walls of your mom's womb. I'm not a scientist. I've just, you know, you read one article, you're an expert. So let's say that was the case. Yes.

And then you can get back to your story. Could we theoretically prevent a child from touching the wound? I did not have any fingerprints. Yeah, I mean, weird. Yeah. Keep going. Somebody's run the combox, losing their mind, because they're studying this. I guess not at all true. Oh, no.

But you know like the Lord knit us together in our mother's womb, it's the same Psalm. But just how particular it is. You know like as particular as your thumb. Neil's Googling it like an ignorant click in the way. But anyway, just that. That, just to your point, like when a compliment means so much more, when a person has been present to enough to notice things about you, that's totally you. Yeah. And for the Lord to say,

for David to say with all my ways you are familiar. So when I receive a word from the Lord, it's that specific. Isn't that kind of wild? Wait, say that last bit again. So when I receive a word from the Lord, yeah, like he speaks truth over my life. Yeah. Um, he's, it's just, it's for me and it's only for me. And there's this spiritual guy named Graham Cook.

He's like a Protestant. I don't, I've only listened really to one of his talks, but I really liked it. And in it, one of the things he says that I love, he's a British guy. He says, whatever the Lord is, is he's relentless. And then whatever the Lord is like towards you, he's relentlessly like that.

And I thought, that is so true. The Lord is so intentional. And he's like relentlessly intentional that. And I thought that is so true. The Lord is so intentional. And he's like relentlessly intentional with you. Isn't that wild? Yeah. For me, that looks like I've received graces on sound retreats and you write them down in your journal and you pick it up like 10 years later and you read it. And it all is true, but it's become truer as you've lived longer and you have more evidence of like, I am like that.

You know, that's amazing. I think also in order to hear your either criticism or praise, I have to trust you. And my trusting you will lead to me like disarming myself before you, you know? Cause don't you think like, I don't know, we're often on guard against each other, wondering what your angle is or whether you're for me or against me or making fun of me or criticizing unfairly or but if I trust you, then I can just sort of lay my hands to the side and receive what it is you want to speak into my life. You know, that's certainly true.

Vulnerable comes from a lot word, vulnus, meaning wound. Isn't that weird? I didn't know that. To be vulnerable is to be like to show my, to expose, to make myself so vulnerable, I might even my wounds are exposed, you know? That's the only way friendship can happen. Don't you think? Absolutely.

That's right. That's also the most beautiful trait in human beings, I think. Being vulnerable. Yeah. The most beautiful. And I don't mean like showing my woundedness necessarily. I guess I just mean being

unguarded and honest. that's what I mean. I think the ugliest thing in human beings is pride and arrogance. Like when you sense that in people, you're just totally disgusted. Everybody is. But when someone's actually being vulnerable, not for the sake of clicks or money or to make a show, you know, like on on some kind of soap opera or like, oh, sorry, I rather on Oprah or the Ellen DeGeneres show, whatever, you know.

But when they just like before you and they don't even they haven't even processed how their woundedness could end up being a blessing, they're just like. Because it's easy to talk about my woundedness if it comes to full circle and there's a bow on it and now I'm better because of it. But if I'm in the middle of the suffering and I don't know how it wraps up well or if it even could, but I'm just bearing it. Gosh, that's beautiful. You're right. Oh, that is beautiful.

Yeah, I guess it was so cool yesterday in my talk. This woman gets up to the microphone. She looked like she was in her 60s or 70s. She just she talked about how like, like when her husband's where she gets lonely and masturbates or something. And I like, OK, that's probably not appropriate to share in front of 800 people. But I just thought, oh, I love you. I just thought she was just I was so endeared by her because the way she said it was

it wasn't it wasn't gratuitous. She just talked about this struggle that she had. But was just something about it whenever someone's like that before me I love them. Can we talk about the Lord for a minute here? Yes, so um There are there are a couple priests in my life who I don't see very often and when I see them I just want to buy them stuff just want to buy these priest stuff and I'm in the spiritual direction program. One of them is there.

And I saw him reading this book in the bookstore. And I was like, I really want to buy that book for him. So I was trying to see what the book was, so I could buy it for him. And I found out that one of them likes cookies. So I was like, I'm gonna go buy these dude's cookies. Now, the reason why I'm at is very simple, because they're CFRs.

So they take vows of poverty. They can't, as I understand, really have money. They can't really buy anything. So for them to get anything, I'd have to buy it for them. And I find that irresistible. I don't feel that way about any other priest. When I see them, the praise of my own about that guy's something I don't feel that way. Like we both get a paycheck. We'll both be fine. Right. And the point of me telling you that is I was like,

why do I want to buy these guys stuff? And it's like, I think it's cause I find the pot, their poverty so attractive. The fact that when they're looking at something or they want a cookie and they can't buy it for themselves, so somebody has to buy it for them. So I just had this insight when let's like how attractive our poverty must be to the Lord. Like we're afraid of poverty, but there's a great line in the Psalms that says he has never despised the poverty of the poor Yes, I don't know where it is, but it is there. I remember reading and it knocked me over

So if you and I think vulnerability is like so unbelievably attractive, I mean people have it. We're just drawn to it Why do I think that's not true of me? It's a prayer How honest can we be like how real with the Lord when he's, you know, how attractive is it to the Lord? He hates, the one thing we know the Lord hates is hypocrisy. He's cast down the mighty from their thrones. Hypocrisy, and it comes from the Greek word meaning a mask, like actor, to wear a mask. The Lord is like, what are you doing? Somebody once said, the Lord doesn't love the image you have of yourself. He only loves you. So to think that like the projection, I have myself,

that's actually not even real. Do you know what I mean? It's like Bitcoin or stocks or something. Yeah, it's not a thing, but I find that idea. So delightful going into a prayer time of the Lord delights in poverty. He delights in vulnerability and you can just like put it out Oh, if we really believe that our prayer would get exponentially better. Come on. Come on. Yes yes, and So often we

End up posh like it's we put it's a posture in prayer. That's right. I remember when I got Married and we lived in Ireland, I set up a little chapel for myself because I'm melancholic and I got a very nice wooden kneeler and a big painting of Christ and would pray the devotions I got enthusiastic about for 48 hours and then moved on to another one with my books and my candle wax and everything. And my wife would like just take care of like my son and breastfeed him and it was messy, but she was the holy one. I just had this like idea of how prayer should look. I've said this on the show before. I'll say it real quickly. Old Matt Fradd would say to young dad Matt Fradd, you need to relax.

It's okay that your children are like laying down while you pray the rosary, you know, you just chill that that posturing versus poverty and prayer is what I'm getting at. Yes. It's like I needed I needed things to look right with my book, with its ribbons and there's nothing wrong with any of those things. They're all fantastic, but they can be a. A wall. I'm going to start preaching here for a bit, if you know. So last Sunday, it was one of the ones where the gospel says something like the man knocks at the door at midnight and says, I have somebody coming and I need some bread. He's like, oh, I'm in bed and my kids are in bed.

He said he will not respond to him because of his friendship. He will respond to him because of his persistence. And I was watching this commentary by Brent Petrie and he says that Greek word for persistence, I think it's pronounced an idea. Idea respect. So and I did means like no respect means like shamelessness So and the Lord is saying that's how I want you to come to me like like like no respect Shamelessly you just you'll just ask for I mean imagine if somebody called you at one o'clock this morning and so like hey Matt Okay, so I like this breakfast. Can I just like come over for like six eggs? You're like, what do you like? What time is it? Oh, it's like one o'clock, but can I like get those eggs? I have breakfast. You're like,

are you kidding me dude? Like I'm in bed and my kids are all asleep. Like I'm actually in the bushes. I just thought you'd probably get them. So I'm here. Could you just come out and give them me? Like you're so shameless, but you know, else is shameless. I would love it. Yeah. And the Lord is encouraging us. So I think you learn because that does sound like what a kid would do. Absolutely. I think what would freak me out about my next door neighbor doing that would be it seems like the beginning of a horror movie.

Because honestly, I'd be thrilled if my neighbor did that, because I love that kind of I love people being that. I love that you think we have that kind of relationship that you can do that. Like that makes me love you more. But it just sounds strange. Like you really, no one needs six eggs that much. You could have asked me in the morning, but that is something a kid would do.

Yeah, they have no decorum. They don't know, you know, they have no sense of like- What does decorum mean? It's just like right order. I know what it means, but you seem to know the etymology of things. Like, I don't know the etymology of it, but like, you know, but things have a right order.

There's a custom, there's, oh, it's too late, we'll call them tomorrow. Kids don't. Kids don't care. Like, I want a pop tart. It's 11 o'clock at night. Like, I want a pop tart. Well, I'm sorry.

It's 11 o'clock at night. I didn't ask for the time. I asked for a pop tart. So the great iron is when you're praying and you're freshly with your kid who's walking up to you in the middle of prayer and ask you for something, they're probably actually teaching you something about how to talk to your father your heavenly father in that just like I'm just gonna go interrupt

It's like hey dad dad dad Guys like we're praying the rosary right now, but he's just gonna ask you you know what I mean It's you're like father until you like yes fine get the chocolate milk God chocolate milk God oh man in his book a hungry for God Ralph Martin says if he had to use one word to define faith biblical faith it would be gutsy hmm so what was the conversation like between the four guys who dropped the paralytic like yeah we're gonna go see Jesus and there's gonna be a part and we're gonna get him in front of Jesus

because he's like a wonder worker and a healer and they get there, it's packed. House is packed, packed. There's people at the door like six feet deep. Like, oh, we can't go. And they're like, all right, man, you know, they're friendly, we gotta go. And he's like, bro, we're not leaving.

He's like, well, we can't get in, do we gotta come tomorrow? He's like, we're climbing on the roof. No gotta come tomorrow. He's like we're climbing on the roof No, we're not. Yes, we are. We're gonna drop him down to the road. How are we gonna bring him up? We don't even know exactly we're gonna break the roof. He's like we'll be legends still print t-shirts. We're doing this Party Are you kidding me right now? Drop down. Do you have a Jesus? The owner's like, are you kidding me right now? And the guy gets dropped down. And then Jesus, I'm in the room, the owner's like, come on!

And everyone's just like angry. And Jesus is like, your sins are forgiven. You know, like he just delights in like, oh, here they come. Isn't that amazing? That's gutsy. But then with the hemorrhage, you know, if I just touched the hem of his garment, and all sorts of people touch Jesus that day, right? But only to one that he sayage you know if I just touched the hem of his garment and all sorts of people touch Jesus that day right but only to one that he say you know someone

has touched me power has left me like I just fight just get in there and I mean that's childlike decorum less that's what I like it to core what's the core mean Neil I'm looking at it okay says it's from the Latin from the heart yeah cool chorus which is its own Latin word, which means seemingly. So it seems pretty... Seemly, proper would be cool. Okay, so Dec is from Proto-Indo-European, to take, accept. See like accepted.

So the opposite would be like uncouth. When somebody's like uncouth. If I had of like guess. Okay decorum 10 heart Alcoholic beverage the pirates make cool. That's weird and the actual is just decorum. Oh, it's basically a Latin word. That means decorum Yeah decorum us we have to be shameless Yeah Matt could you scoot a little bit left this way? Yeah Is that better? Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for that.

Gosh, yeah, I want to do that. That I'm excited to go to adoration now. That's when you know, I'm not if I got to go there and say all the right things in order to feel a certain way. I think that's what we think prayer is. You do this thing until you it's like prayer. Good prayer is when you pray enough to no longer feel guilty about not praying like that's how we approach prayer so

yeah I mean there's there's certainly truth to you better praying by praying so I think you get better at what you're saying you just kind of relax and do it in a way where yeah I come just gonna talk to the Lord when I was in seminary we have practicum classes so that's like when you you have mass practicum so you practice mass or confession practice you do do fake confessions. It's pretty wild. So this one guy gets up there and he's from, I don't want to, I want to protect his identity. We'll say he's from the Midwest. Okay. And he gets up there and he wore the mask. He's gonna do a fake mask, right? So he gets up there and he's like,

in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, him and the Lord be with you. And he keeps going. He's from the Midwest. He sounds like he's like, in the name of the father and of the son and of the Holy spirit, him and the Lord be with you. And he, he keeps going. He's from the Midwest. And he sounds like he's Irish. Yes. So somebody he doesn't get far in before I came over the student of the series. Like, Hey, like buddy, please stop that. Do you, why are you doing that? He's like doing what his voice goes back to normal. Like you're, you're, um, you have like a broke Irish. Do you hear that? And he's like, am I crazy? You guys hear that? Right? Exactly. And he's like, I was like, oh no,

okay, no, I don't know. Like, okay. And then I go back to him and he's like, let's call it to my inner sins and ask the Lord for, you know, so anyway, this goes on a longer than people stop and people stop. So like what is going on? So finally we discovered his childhood pastor was like an Irish missionary. So he, he was raised listening to the mass, prayed in Irish broke. And I sometimes think that's how we pray, like in an affected kind of way, like we will watch somebody else. I remember doing that. I remember going to adoration,

like walking, watching the bags of backs of other people and being like, I wonder will watch somebody else. I remember doing that. I remember going to adoration, like walking, watching the bags of facts of other people and being like, I wonder what they're saying. Like maybe they know what you're supposed to say, or going to mass as a teenager and seeing someone with their eyes closed who seemed like they were really entering in. And I remember thinking, thinking, they must know something. I don't know. You know, like how, what, how are they entering in? But the main point of the story is that, you know, I think we learn whether rightly or wrongly this, you have this kind of mask or

yeah, a way to pray. That's just not us, you know? I do. So, you know, a conversation is good when afterwards you want to pray. I want to go pray. Yeah, I do. So people watching. Yeah, it's it's like riding a bike when afterwards you want to pray. I'm like, I want to go pray right now. I do. So I hope people watching. Yeah. It's, um,

it's like riding a bike. Like I could explain to you, I wouldn't know how to, but I'd have me look it up how to ride a bike and how to balance and, and how you have to hold your body and where you have to put the weight of your body when doing this particular thing. And I could explain all of that to you. You could write a huge essay on it, but not know how to ride a bike. It's like you have to give yourself over to it in order to make the thing work. And faith is sort of like that prayer is sort of like that. Amen. Yeah. Is it the moron? Yeah.

I think the two basic things you'd say in any prayer life is you should start and never stop. You know, just start praying. It's like the famous adage when somebody asked Dr. Craig, what's the best translation of the Bible? And he's like the one you'll read, just start reading it. Just read it it If you're not reading it all reading anyone's better than not reading any of them. So it comes to prayer. It's just Starting is good. I've heard somebody say pray as you can not as you can't Just pray that way. I Like it's I think it's our exaggerated notions of prayer that often prevent us from praying

I like that. I think it's our exaggerated notions of prayer that often prevent us from praying. Prevents me from praying. I have this idea of how prayer ought to look and how Bible reading ought to feel. And when it doesn't match up with that, I think I'm failing and I don't like failing. So I stopped that thing. So the expectation of what it should be prevents from just like family. I mean, family prayers like that. I genuinely thought that the Hahn family just like, you know, back when I didn't know him, must all be kind of kneeling around.

One of the kids is levitating again. For you know, and then and so then you compare that with the with the circus at your house kid hanging off the friggin rafters and what are rafters? I don't know what rafters are. I keep saying hanging off the friggin rafters and what are rafters? I don't know what rafters are I keep saying hanging off the rafters. Are those the the metal bars like the metal? Yeah, I guess that's right around the curtains Oh, I thought it was more like structural than that like actually Yeah, yeah rafters are just like the the sloped part that meet and that construction so like the arch Rafters roof tiles so So much I don't know. I know.

Like, I don't know how plastics made. Do you? I don't. Do you know how like someone does and they're commenting right now. But like, how do they make the can not have an opening and yet be filled with water? Do they attach it? Does that top lid thing get pressed onto it? And I don't know anything. Yeah, I don't know that either.

And then someone's like, what's your thoughts on evolution? Like, I don't know how plastics made, that doesn't mean I can't know any of an evolution, but it just means I know not so little about everything. Yeah. I'll start with plastic at the stegosaurus, but let's just plastic dinosaurs. I like to say when it comes to like theological and philosophical topics, I'm like three questions deep and then I've got nothing. Then it's bedrock.

Oh, OK, but what about that? OK, but what about this? I got nothing now. Like you've hit bedrock. I know nothing. I think that was one of my fears of coming on your show. Hmm. Pines with the coin is because I feel like you're an essentialist. You have a natural philosophical bent.

And in other words, you want to know what something is. What's the essence? What's the nature of the word decorum? What's the nature of a rafter? How do you make plastic? And so I was afraid I would say something and you'd be like, well, what does that mean? I'd be like, blah, blah, blah, blah.

You might go, but what about? And I'd be like, nah. I got nothing left. Let's decorum, you know? No, I don't know. Turns out it means decorum. So, kind of buried the Turns out it means decorum. So, yeah, kind of buried in heart rum.

Oh, there's something you said before that I want to go back to. Maybe it's gone. What was it? Prayer. Being ourselves. Exaggerated notions of prayer, prevent us from praying. Oh, I'm like a spiritual direction program and you learn like different methods like like Ignatian prayer, like how to pray Ignatian style. And one of these I really appreciate is as one of the priest who's leading it is he's like when you go on a prayer, he's like, this is really important. Just like

forget everything we ever tell you because all will be is a block to community, which is so true. Okay. Like when I was a kid, I was a youth leader and we learned something called form, which stands for family, occupation, recreation, message. And so I still use that when I talk to people,

like, oh, where's your family from? And I did it with Neil like an hour ago. And like you have siblings and you, so it's just a way that you learn, but it's really, it's like small talk, trying trying to when then something hits and then you go into like, I feel like praying scriptures that way, you know, like you're reading and something kind of hits and you're like, Ooh, with all my ways you're familiar. And then you kind of zoom in on that, you know,

but I also think that there are, there are nothing, there's something wrong with methods to pray, but at one point you just have communion and then you, that you want to just forget about, they just like Share your heart with the Lord, you know, like I think Merton said we say prayer so that we can pray Mm-hmm, you know vocal person important the Lord taught us they are their father. So it's really important but I think it's uh Because we need that kind of that stuff, but eventually we want to get to kind of heart-to-heart communion you know, I'm being myself and I'm being vulnerable and being real with the Lord. And it's, uh, it's scary.

Like really praying. I think pure goodness is a lot scarier than pure darkness. Really? Oh yeah. Yeah. Because there's, it's so substantial. It's pure dark. What do you mean by pure dark? Well, of course, I guess, strictly speaking, the absence of good. Exactly. So I guess nothing can be purable. Yeah. Evil. So like you encounter somebody who's kind of what we would consider like an evil man. Yeah. That's less frightening.

Like the depth. I guess the depth of their depravity doesn't seem to me as it goes less deep than goodness goes up. Yeah. Like when somebody's good,. Yes. I mean, there's a, there's a vibrancy to them and a, a fullness, a plenitude, you know, um, that evil, it's kind of, it's just so boring, you know, didn't Lewis say something like, you know, how monotlacy boring of all the dictators of the world that are alike and how different the saints of God have

been? And so it's something like that. Do you find when you spiritually direct people or when you just counsel them, that most of us or many of us feel we have to fit a particular mold to be holy? I imagine the answer is obviously yes, but I want to kind of go into that a little deeper. I remember a friend of mine, Renee Bennett, lovely woman, lives in Brisbane, Australia. She was on net and she shared with me that for the first half of the year, she was trying to be like soft spoken.

And because there were people in a team like that and they were really holy. And she thought that's what holy man. And so she tried really hard to act like that and then it nearly killed her and then she realized, okay, I don't have to fit that particular mold. Do you think have you seen that? That's a good question. I find. So when I was in seminary, I used to bring stuff to my spiritual director. Hey, this is going on. I'm going through some crisis. I'm falling on with the lunch lady. Plastic gloves. She feeds me literally.

Her hands are so modest. They're so, thank you so much. Right. Yeah. She feeds me. That's right. So anyway, I would be telling everybody about it and then I go to my spiritual director. And he would say something like, and when you, when you be telling everybody about it. And then I go to my spiritual director and he would say something like, and when you when you told the Lord about that, what does he say? Called out. And I'd be like, what? He's like, so when you like, when you told the Lord that,

what did he say? And I'm thinking to myself, I've told everyone about that. And I prayed like multiple holy hours since last time I saw you. And I honestly don't know like what the Lord everyone about that. And I prayed like multiple holy hours since last time I saw you. And I honestly don't know like what the Lord thinks about that because I don't know if I've ever just told them about it. So I've come to the habit of my life now, somebody's in my office and they're telling me about something in their life. I try to listen, um, you know, really try to understand where they're coming from, trying to meet them in that place. And then I'll ask some question like that. And if they say, I don't know, I'll just say,

why don't we just do it right now? So why don't we just take like, I don't know, a minute or two of silence. Why don't you just tell the Lord, just you can use the exact same language you just told me. Why don't you just go ahead and, and I'll both close your eyes and you can just tell me when you're done. How's that sound? It can just be a few minutes, great. So then that's what I do. And then I'll be sitting there and then I hear somebody talking, I open my eyes again.

And then I don't say, did you hear anything? I just say, what did he say? And if I had to be honest with you Matt, it's 100%. 100%. 100%. Nobody's ever opened their eyes and been like, I don't know, it's just like dark. People have told me like, I received this image or this memory came to me or the scripture

or he told me this really beautiful thing. 100%. So I think that's trying to get past it. I'm a big fan of don't tell me, show me. So you can tell me, like be yourself, be yourself. But it's kind of like, look, you just told me that thing. Why don't you just tell the Lord right now? Just in the exact same language. You just told me and see what he says. And then the Lord talks and it's amazing. Of course the Lord doesn't talk like we talk, but, um, so I don't really answer your question. I guess. No, I forgot my question. I guess it's a way to try to solve the problem of like people having an image of holiness. Yeah. Um, but I think that's true. And I think it takes a while because yeah, we even have to die to our notion of what we think holiness should be.

Well, like for example, I mean, you and I have spoken at conferences the last several years. We encountered different people. Do you think these different people are comfortable in their own unique? Ways of being them being or are we all trying to be like Trent or Scott or whoever else? Or do you think, no, it seems like there's a vast array of characters and. And they and it's good that they're different and they. I don't know what I'm on yeah, I hope so.

Chesterton says something like your life will become a lot better when you just realize that people just don't care that much about you love it love it so much you're just not that important it's so true orthodoxy yeah and I think that's generally true I feel like there was a big part of my life where I tried desperately to shave off my idiosyncrasies and be normal that's the best part of you can I share with you a memory that I delighted her name was Katie I'm not gonna say her last name anyway we were in a youth conference I was as well uh name was Katie. I'm not gonna say her last name. Anyway, we were at a youth conference. I was as well. Uh-huh. We're watching her.

She's talking on the stage and you're saying something like, oh, she's so beautiful. So. Half filled right? Yeah, I was gonna use her name, but here we are. She's lovely. She's lovely.

She's so beautiful. And I remember thinking. I think I probably said something like, I think I'm falling in love with her. Yes, exactly. I fall in love with most people. Exactly. And we're standing next to each other, right on stage. And as I've told you many times, I was thinking, man, Australian men, they're just free. Like American men's bandwidth of emotion is like this in Australia.

They're just like high highs, low lows. Again, how many, I think you only know me from Australia. The sample size is very small. So here we are. And you said it again. You're just like, Oh, she's so beautiful. I mean, look at her. Are you looking at her? I'm like, yeah, she's fine. Someone else is a free man, you know? And then as she comes off this stage,

she walked straight up to us and you said, you're so beautiful. I was like, this man is what I do now is I compliment women now, but only when my wife's around. Okay. So they know it's not weird. Yes. I mean, they still might think it's weird, but I do that. I'm like, you have beautiful. My wife is the most unintimidated, unjealous person ever.

So doesn't bother her. Laura Horn would kill Trent in his sleep if he ever did that. But my wife, I love just telling people they're beautiful, but shaving off my idiosyncrasies. I think a lot of people feel that way. I've ever did that. But I love just telling people they're beautiful. But shaving off my idiosyncrasies, I think a lot of people feel that way. I've stopped doing that. I'm trying to come to reconcile

myself with myself by accepting the father's love for me. Are you being serious? Yes, 100 percent. Yeah, he really likes me. He does. Yeah, he delights in you.

Yeah. So when I can live out of that place, it's good But when I don't I feel it and what's kind of embarrassing is everybody else sees it on YouTube as well But even that I give to the Lord. Amen, you know, and if I can't abandon it, I abandon that Well, here's the deal I mean Jesus says if your child asked you for a piece of bread Would you give a rock and child asked you for a piece of bread, would you give him a rock? And he asked you for a stick, would you give him a snake? Never would I be tempted to do that. And he said, if you are wicked, you ought to give good gifts. And how much more you'll

have than the father. Give the Holy Spirit to us. And I think you're utterly delightful. Thank you. And I'm a dirty sinner. I totally believe you. And I think the same of you. Limited view. So if I think you're delightful, then what must the father think of you? One of my favorite things to do when I give people gifts. Um, and they're like, no, no, no, I couldn't accept that. I'm like, listen, if you can't accept this, how will you ever accept Jesus's love for you?

I shame them into accepting the gift. And now receive the Eucharist on your knees. Yeah, but it's true. Like if you can't receive people's gifts, like what did I say about you? Like you're a prideful person because Jesus gave himself for you. I've been a seminary for like a year and this guy found out me and this other guy were seminarians tried to give us money. I don't know. 50 bucks, a hundred bucks. He's like, here you go. You know, like, no, no, no, no. And he's like, here you go. Like, no, no, no, no. And he looks this in the eye

and he's like dead serious. He's like, you needed to learn how to say thank you. And then just I asked the money to us. So I was like, okay. What a humble thing to say, because in saying that he both gave you money and then made it such that you didn't have a pleasant feeling of him as he walked off. It's humble. But you're right. I mean, I think part of it, uh, I've heard you say this in a talk, you know, the Christian faith sometimes not too hard to believe it's too good to believe. I heard that from somebody, but yes, it is. It's too good.

Everything else has let me down. Nothing has actually worked. No drink has ever been as good as it said it would be. No, whatever. Do you know earlier? I said I love being Catholic. Yeah. And you said why? And I'm like, it's the best. No, whatever. Part of the reason, though, this is the best way I can say it might sound cliche as best way I can say I've come to believe on some deep fundamental level. I Want everything? Oh my god, and that has Jesus is the only one who can give it to me like I want everything I want everything and I'm gonna tell you what I mean by that after the show is over because it was scandalized

Oh, I want show is over because it was scandalized. The people I want everything. You'll cut the tape. Yeah. I want it all. Yeah. What if I know you didn't and it's just like you stand up and it's just like,

and you're like doing like hand motions and you're like talking loudly and like clearly writing something on board and shooting guns. And everyone is like, what is it? And then it's like three minutes of that. You sit down, you're like, and everyone's like, what is it? I'm crying, my buttons are askew.

Somehow shirt's gone. And people are like, what does Matt want? And then your sport cut's still on, but your bare chest goes. Wait a minute. It seems wild. Yeah, but idiosyncrasies. I mean, I say that not just for my sake and to share. I'm not trying to share a story about myself.

I just think a lot of us feel that way. We feel unlovable. We feel weird. We feel awkward. And we and I wonder as a priest. The pressure to be some, I don't know, idiosyncrasy less person with a strong jawline and a specific way of speaking and no weirdness about you.

I would feel that like if I became a priest today, I'd be I'd delete my YouTube channel and try to have no history and try to live perfectly, which would be the wrong thing to do, I think. But yeah, I mean, I think I think I'm as insecure as any other person. But if I had to be honest with you, I really like myself. And have you always and I can always and I and the other thing is that I'm I can crack myself up like That's gonna be a clip I get to two second clip I like myself I can really cry myself Definition click here. I really like myself

So I'm trying to be vulnerable that try to be real. Here's the other thing. We think about being vulnerable as talking about my wounds, but then it's also hard to when you talk about receiving gifts, if I like my personality to not receive that and to not acknowledge that I like it, if I think you're delightful and then there are parts of me that I like, then isn't it humble to say, yeah yeah I like that you know so anyway and I can crack myself up like I can think of things by myself that I think are funny and I can laugh out loud as I just thought of like oh my god thanks Lord so that's kind of fun yeah

have you always been like that no certainly not certainly not I mean you know like acne as a teenager you know I grew up and she's like everyone else. So, you know, you don't like what you look like there. I don't like the fact that I'm getting older, you know, and that's I feel vain about that. What is it about your appearance that's changing that you don't like the most? Is it, I don't know. I'm just, people will say, I don't want to make you think I'm looking at anything, but like, is it like backaches, thinning hair, pot belly,

thinning hair, you know, just like, um, you know, my teeth are just getting less white and it's just like, that's what I'm going to look like, you know? Yeah, I think it's just getting older. So yeah, so anyway, all that to say, um, I, I was actually excited when I became a priest that I became a priest. I was like, I became, I'm still myself. Yeah. And I, I was actually excited when I became a priest that I became a priest. I was like, I became I'm still myself. Yeah. And I was really delighted about that.

I was like, OK, I'm still me. And there were times when I would do something and I'm like, I don't know if a priest does that. I'm like, well, I'm a priest. I'm about to do. I mean, that sounds like I'm doing scandalous things. No, no. Yeah, I know. But that's the first time I was a mule.

I crossed the border like I was doing illegal no, yeah, I know. But that's the first time I was a mule across the border, like I've been doing a little things during drugs or something. But I just mean, yeah, whatever it was where I can't think about something. But you seem like a priest who stays out of the liturgy wars and the and the goings on on Catholic Twitter. Has that been something you've intentionally done? Because I would imagine that every kind of Catholic parish isn't isn't unaffected by these sorts of conversations and pressures.

Or is your. Yeah, my parish, to be honest, I feel largely as we're just for whatever reason, not kind of bogged into that. I think one of the gifts Lord has given me is encouragement. I love encouraging people. So I feel like one of the ways that evil one works in my life is he tries to discourage me like you know give this talk at this conference in Steubenville and I Had some pretty serious spiritual warfare going on before my talk

Like I was just like a lot of self-doubt and all that and this happens before a lot of talks you know what you're saying before like comparing and you know all that kind of stuff and Yes, I have to share you know you and I and Trent, we're talking, we're talking about giving a talk and I'm like, yeah, I'm talking about something kind of scholarly and I don't feel that equipped. And just like, yeah, I felt the same way. You know, I just give a talk about, you know, like how I see us argue is a Protestant target. Like atheists, I just wrote down a couple of notes from my book and I just had to give

that talk. And then there's like a pause. And I said, well, you did write a book on it. I did write a book on it. That's kind of did write a book That's kind of preparing for a dog. Yeah, Trent. You don't talk anymore. Matt. What do you got exactly exactly? And with it I have a very fond memory of you and I we're at a youth conference and we were at this coffee shop Like two hours before one of our talks. I don't think either one of us was finished, you know, just living our lives and Yeah, I just remember you thinking I think you had the Sunday morning keynote, okay And you're like I'm looking at the notes and I know what they want me to say

What you said, but I know we'll connect and I'm just I'm gonna say what I know will connect and then I'm gonna try to Like include this stuff. Yeah, but you know, and it was great. So Chester intuition I remember they asked me to give a talk on dating as a teenager and I was up there and I was about to say the things they wanted me to say and I said and I just said You really shouldn't be dating as teenagers. You'll just end up fornicating. Don't date until you're ready for marriage. It's stupid I just said it and they started cheering Like and I'm like you heard what I said right it's weird Wow well the people of honesty

liturgy wars yeah one of the gifts of Lord give me some encouragement one of those evil one works against me is discouragement and so I just find it kind of discouraging and this is something that I learned from I learned from Patrick Lanchione but I don don't know who or originally comes from. It's the circle of influence versus the circle of concern. You heard this? Give it to us. So it's so worth reiterating. Everyone has a circle of influence or want to circle of concern. Oh,

circle of concern is bigger than the circle of influence. If you focus too much in your circle of concern, which are things outside of your control, your circle of influence shrinks. Be focused on your circle of influence, which you actually have control over your circle of influence if you focus too much in your circle of concern which are things outside of your control your circle of Influence shrinks be focused on your circle of influence which you actually have control over your circle of influence gross I want you to say all this again. It's so true. I About this I'm not kidding you three to four times To let loose so I'm gonna go light up a cigar keep going okay, so anyway I really want you to dive into this yeah, and so I feel it's very easy just to be concerned about things and to worry and obsess about that we have absolutely no

control over. I remember during some sort of scandals about five years ago, I was doing something with Blessed Is She and I'm with all the writers and somebody's asking about what about this bishop and he's doing this thing and I was trying to be honest, you know, and And I said well to be honest. I'm a priest in Phoenix I have everything in my life that I need to become a saint and I don't know whose job it is to correct that bishop, but it's not mine I said I so I don't know after other than prayer we're supposed to do about that and later She said I was actually really freeing. That's like yeah, that's called reality

Like I have no control over what that bishop's doing. And so I find when I read those things, I feel less empowered, I feel less encouraged, I feel less equipped or the desire to love and serve the people in my parish where I am, my circle of influence. You kind of feel paralyzed, don't you? Yeah, I'm gonna die and and I'm going to face Jesus and he's going to, how did you form the people of St. Teresa Parish? And he won't say a thing

about my character yet. Yeah, they'll never come up. What about the German bishops moving into, Lord, it's your church. It's your church. You know, that famous John the 23rd thing before you go to bed at night and say, well, it's your church. I'm going to bed. It's like, yeah, it's your church, Jesus, you built it. So yeah, it's out of my control. And so I think there's a fair amount of us with that we could be reminded of all the time, like friend, how is that helping you to become holy? Can I tell you something you sneak added to my parish?

I once started a homily and I said, should president Joe Biden receive holy communion when he attends mass? You said that in a homo? Yeah, and I'm like not a controversial preacher. I wouldn't say I talk about political things a lot. And we'll talk about what I mean by that. And the whole parish was like,

and then I said, I'm actually not gonna answer that question. And I said, you know, the bishops are talking about right now they're writing a doc on Eucharistic coherence and that's good. But I'd actually rather ask a more important question, which is should you and I be receiving Holy Communion when we attend Mass? And then I just preached about the church, like what it means to me in a state of grace or state of mortal sin, and that we're actually doing more damage to ourselves,

that you want to talk about weaponizing the Eucharist, it's receiving Holy Communion, state of mortal sin. That's what the Bible calls weaponizing the Eucharist, is receiving Holy Communion unworthily. Paul says you eat and drink judgment upon yourself Which is why many of you are sick and dying. Oh Battle yeeks. So uh, and I was like, I'd rather make us feel uncomfortable than somebody else We feel better about ourselves because we you know, I'm gonna say I'm again I'm not saying that poor questions are important. The bishops are dealing with it. He has a bishop. That's their thing I'd rather make us feel uncomfortable should we be receiving Holy Communion.

And that's what I'm gonna do. I wanna help equip these people to love and follow Jesus. One of the things we say in seminary is, preach to who's there. Preach to who's there. I imagine an audience that's somewhere. Maybe this will go viral. Maybe I should preach to some viral audience.

I need to preach to these people in front of me. Do you know what I'm saying? 100 percent. So that's why I find a lot of that, to be honest. It doesn't bear fruit in my life. I love that. I love it. And I this advice is something we should all take to heart. But is it something you have to fight against or is it just easy for you

not to be concerned about ecclesial politics? It's very easy. Yeah, I just don't care. I find it boring. That's wonderful. Has it always been easy? Oh, yeah. It was never a point where you had to, like, exert more effort to not care.

Yeah, I think I went to a seminary that just that wasn't a thing. I think when you're in seminary, that can be when you can start to build this culture of like, you know, who these bishops and who so and so. And I just didn't have that at my seminary. And then the rare times

it was very rare out here. to talk about it I just found it profoundly you don't know who any like movie stars are yeah yeah I was like that way in Bishop so like I know my own bishop is I know who the pope is I know like two others like I just don't need to yeah I just don't care yeah I love the church you know what I mean like I don't who. You know what I mean? Like I don't. Who's moving where? What advice could you give that you think someone would actually hear who's involved heavily in ecclesial politics? Like there's advice you could give that they wouldn't hear. But is there something you could say in a way that even they or I or whoever's watching would hear?

I just asked my parishioners, how much are you watching the news or looking at these things? And they'll tell me, 90 minutes, two hours, three hours. Then I'll say, how much praying are you doing in a day? For seven minutes. Let's try to, let's try to, let's try to, let's try to pull that one down about an hour. Let's try to pull this one up, you know what I mean?

Yeah. That's like a joke by Brian Reagon, the meme monster. Here, here, here, here. You see? You see the difference? Those are my firsts. Your first should be here, not here. So I think people get a pretty easy way. I'm like, I'm not saying being uninformed, but instead of three hours,

how about 90 minutes? How about you try to pray the rosary every day? And actually pray for the church or pray for those people that you're so frustrated and angry at. That's actually what Jesus told us to do. You know, like I don't sound that patronizing, but you know what I mean? I do. So I think it's actually, it's addictive. I'm using the term colloquially, but that's what it is. Yeah. Something about feeling angry equals productive. Like it feels like I'm being productive by getting angry.

Yes. And it also it also kind of reminds me that I'm on the right side when I see that someone else isn't. Maybe there's that. So it kind of confirms me in my rightness and anger feels productive, something like that. So I think number one, anger can be addictive. And my bishop has this great line. He says, we need to be good stewards of our anger.

And I think there's a rush you get from being angry. I can't believe that person's doing that. That person is destroying the church and getting kind of exciting. You know, click, click, click, click and shocking. And we all know how the Internet works. The more you click on certain things, the Internet's like studying you. And it gives you more of those stories. And so it becomes more narrow, narrow what you read.

And so I think that's that's true. I can become addictive. And is that really helping you love the Lord? And so I I think you're right. I think it would be for a lot of people to have to fast occasionally. I mean, you do that, aren't you about to do that? Yeah, we'll talk about that in the live stream. Yeah, but I just think that's so good.

Oh my gosh, I can't wait to tell you something off camera. I can't, this is so unhelpful to people watching. It's like, why would you tell him that? But I have so many things about fasting. Ask me a question. It's not my wife that's doing, keep going. Okay, well anyway, so I think you're right I think we need to be a good sort of our anger in that. Oh and one last thing. I just about the internet

As you know, they need clicks Because clicks is what gets people to come to your revenue streams And so they've done studies where the content the quality sorry, I'm not I'm not saying this about you But no it is I would let me insert a quick anecdote if I might. Someone said this about you, Neil. Oh, you heard Matt Bruinger. He's like, I kind of feel like your job, Matt, is like light a fire. Because then what Neil does is he takes clips out of the main show and releases

them, but he obviously releases them in a way that people want to click on. So he's like, I feel like your job is to light a fire. And then Neil comes in with a, with like a kerosene. It's just like, it's not out. It's all about getting the clicks baby. But you know, so people write stories and they've done studies where they don't spend as much time.

Don't stop by the way, keep throwing kerosene in case you thought that was a rebuke. No, that's meant to do that. Yeah, but that's just the nature of the internet. And so if anger is addictive and shocking stories gets the clicks, that keeps people coming back and it keeps the anger loop going.

So again, we have anger. We are called to have righteous anger. If you see injustice and you're not angry, that's bad. So it's about being a good steward of your anger. But that would be my question is, what's the fruit it's really bearing in your life. And every person I think it's that individually and absolutely for everyone. If they're feeling it's becoming too much, then probably is and they should do it less and pray

more and scene. He's clip right there. Do you have opinions about priests with platforms? I always get worried when a priest has some kind of shtick, even if it comes to a great intention and even a holy place. What do I know? I just am like, like the cooking priest, the this priest. I don't know. Like when there's a following that's kind of garnered around it, like I think if I were a bishop, I would tell all my priests, I don't want any of any of you on social media.

Really? Okay. Okay., I don't want any of any of you on social media. Really? OK. OK. Maybe I don't mean that. No, no, no, no, no. Please don't please don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying priests should get off social media. I'm not making that judgment because much good is done on social media through very good and holy priests. And I'm not critiquing them. I just I well, let me just make it personal. Like I there's so many traps and pitfalls

that await you on social media that it might be better for you to be concerned about your parish and nothing else. Yeah, I mean, if I were to be on social media among very, very little, I would do what you do. In other words, I want good things on the Internet. I just don't have to deal with a lot of it. I wouldn't read a lot of the comments that have somebody do that for me, or I would do what you do. In other words, I want good things on the internet. I just don't have to deal with a lot of it. I wouldn't read a lot of the comments that have somebody do that for me,

or I would have somebody else have the passwords to my things. Yeah. Because I agree. I think I've seen in my own life priests who have a platform or get like famous and it does not end well. That's my thing, yeah.

But I delight like in Father Mike Schmitz. I delight in Bishop Barron. So I think they're doing great. I do too. I think they're preaching the gospel. Can you hear me agreeing with you loudly enough? Cause I'm so afraid people think I'm chiding them. I'm not glad Bishop Barron's doing what he's doing. I'm glad father Schmitz is doing it. I've met both of those men and they're believers. Yeah. Like they love the Lord. They're believers. And I think the older I get,

that's just one of the best compliments you can give about somebody. He's he's a believer. Yeah. He knows the Lord, they're believers. And I think the older I get, that's just one of the best compliments you can give about somebody, he's a believer. He's a disciple, yeah. Yeah, he knows the Lord. So I can't deny that. And I don't doubt that that probably adds a level of temptation to their life. But if I had to be honest with you,

I'm discerning this right now, to be honest, whether to go more into the internet. Part of me doesn't want to. But I wonder if it's really of the Lord. Like I'm just kind of afraid of those things, but fear is not of God. And if I could be honest, I was on a retreat, like a silent retreat, and I had this amazing spiritual, it was crazy spiritual gifts. He knows nothing about me. And he's looking at me and he says, are you are you a preacher?

Do people say like you're good at preaching? And I'm like, yeah, Yeah, I get good feedback about that He's like yes when I pray for you get a lot of uh, is he counting? It's Ezekiel 34 he said the watchman like the watchman on the the wall and his course the scriptures say like God says if there is an enemy coming in the what you warn them the people and they don't listen to you That's on them. But if an enemy is coming you don't want the people that's on you So when he told me that I was like I was like, what should my voice be? You know, and what is it? How am I called to the watchman? Obviously first and foremost with my own parish

But I was kind of praying and discerning that but it kind of shifted the conversation from myself like what are the pros and cons of like priests get famous and I've seen that kind of end poorly my own Vanity is that good for me and wasting time and I gave up social media on like years ago and really never went back and overwhelmingly not missed it. But then they shifted to the paradigm of like, if the Lord's asking me to do something, I need to do that.

And for a long time I thought, any video I can think about making, Father Mike Schmitz has already made it, so like, just like saying, like, oh, Bishop Barron is super smart. But when I die, you know, I just like saying, you know, like, yeah, or I'm Bishop Baron is, but you know, the answer is smart. But when I die and the Lord asked me to account for my life, I can't be like, well, didn't follow my Bishop. Like the Lord's like, I asked you to do this. So anyway, that's just something I'm discerning and I'm trying to discern it

well and not kind of in that human. But, but I agree with everything you're saying. Those are real and need to be taken into account. Maybe I'm worried about it, because like when you have a family, like it's it's difficult to be a bad father and husband and keep the wheels on, you know, because they'll fall off eventually. Your wife will hate you. You know, your children will whatever.

But if I'm a single person living a celibate life and I'm living poorly, the feedback isn't as doesn't necessarily need to be as imminent. I can distance myself from my parish. What do I know about being a parish priest? Forgive me for talking about things I know nothing about, but I just would imagine that it's easier to hire it as a parish priest than it is as a married man or as religious Yeah, yes, I know I mean every every every Situation left a little bit sorry every situation is a little different

Yeah, I've been out of scenes These I keep laughing is that a center? Thank you for telling me that yeah, I think that's I think every situation is different. And I certainly think there are people in my parish who would tell me, you don't make blanket statements like me. Women are funny. Preaching me on social media.

You know, my first tweet could be well, you know, they talk about for a monk to become a hermit. They have to be a monk for so long before they become like a hermit. OK, because whose feet will they wash? Right. They need to be normal and serve others before they can graduate, as it would becoming a hermit.

So maybe if I were a bishop, I'd do something like that. First 10 years of your priesthood, you can't be on social media. Maybe be something like that, where it's like just learn to love the people in your parish and grow in wisdom. And then you can. I don't know. It's a conundrum, you know, because I want Christ to be on the internet. Oh, people are on the internet. I think this interference, right? When he says St. Paul would have like lost his mind. Like this is the area. I guess like this is where people gather and have conversation. Uh,

I delight in what you do. I mean, to your credit, you know, I remember being at a conference with you and you, we were talking about something provocative. I can't remember what it was And I said something And you said we gotta be saying this stuff and I said you can't say that in public anymore You're like we need to be saying this stuff and friend you say this stuff. Oh, yeah, and I think that's Good stuff, you know? I think it needs to be said. I'm always nervous when people tell me they watch my show.

Like I'm like, oh, what should I say? I feel, when people come out to me, like, oh, I listen to Binds with a Quietness, my first thought is I feel nervous. Almost like, almost like I had eight, let's say I had eight. It's just like, I'm a comedian. It'd be like I've had eight beers at the party last night and I don't remember a lot of it.

And you're like, hey, you were having some fun last night. Like, oh, God, what did I do? That's how I feel when I meet people who watch my podcast. I think I can relate in this way. Sometimes it's a little unsettling when you realize that people aren't listening to your preaching, but it's a lot, lot, lot more unsettling when you realize they are listening to it. Yeah. So sometimes people are like, oh, my father, I did this thing in my life.

You're like, why? You preached about it two months ago, and I'm like, I was just spit balling. I was, you didn't know. And you're like, oh, you were listening? So that is, my sister told me once, I preached to Homily about making a schedule,

and a schedule is like an instant, instantiation of a vision for life. Like we should have a vision for life. And what a schedule is, is like what kind of person do I wanna be? And then I build a schedule that will make me into that person. And, um, she told me that her, my niece went home, she's 11 and made a schedule for the next day and she's like, you know, how close she paying attention. I was like, she did. And I was like,

people are listening. I got it seriously. And I was like, Oh man, the, the weight of preaching has only grown the longer been a priest. You know, I'm going to preach 12 years now. So you think like, Oh, the longer priests, like, Oh preaching, I like get it now. It just grows. And now that I'm a pastor, it's now that I know that I'm going to be held morally accountable for the formation of these people. And, and I have a role to play in their life and I can't be their conscience, but I'm there to help form their conscience that the weight of that is.

Did you hear what Scott said last night in his talk quoting from, um, solo the apostle? It was something to the effect of if a priest is a saint, his people will be, you know, this better than me. Maybe you should say it. Well, you don't. Okay. If a priest is a saint, his people will be fervent. If you know something like that, if a priest is fervent, his people will be decent. If a priest is decent, his people will be godless. Something to that effect. And probably the same thing is true as a father. Like I need to, I need to be a saint for my children and my wife. Not just

like can I, dad doesn't lose it anymore. well done a lot of venial a lot of venial yeah that's uh yeah that's something for all of us when we're not doing we should be we look at priests can look at other priests and stop slinking at Jesus, you know. Well, at least I'm better than father. But, you know, as an office stand, as a parish priest, do you have a five year plan? Like, do you do you envision your life going a certain way as a priest? Like as a married man, right? I'm like, I'd like to live here in Steubenville forever.

You know, maybe we'll grow old here. Maybe the kids will live down the street. Maybe in the winter, since they're so brutal here, we might have to go down south for my wife's health. So I have a, maybe we'll have grandkids. I kind of envision how it'll look. Do you envision how your life will look as a priest? Well, I, so I'm at my home parish.

So I became the pastor of my home parish about two years ago. And I feel like I'm gonna be there a long time, but of course you have no control. I would say I find utter freedom in that The fact that I don't have to decide the fact that God's will sounds like my bishops voice. That is so helpful Like I know I'm gonna be at st Teresa's not a day longer or a day shorter than I'm supposed to be like you I will get a phone call from the vicar for clergy He will tell me what my next assignment is. I'll either die

before then or I'll be going somewhere else. So that is, I find actually utterly freeing. But a personality trait of mine is I just live in the moment. That's just the way God made me. So every assignment I've ever had, I'm like, I'm going to do this forever. I think that's the only way to live any assignment as a priest. You just assume I'm going to be doing this for the rest of my life. How would you pass to your church differently if you knew that you'd be there for the next 40 years? Like, you know, sometimes I wonder how priests feel about this because they're building this thing up. They have a direction for their parish and they might get moved the next year.

Yeah, I mean, there's a there's a Latin adage, it's festina lente, make haste slowly. And I think it's good to have both. I think it's good to both simultaneously. Think I could be here for 20 years and I might get moved in here. So I both have like an urgency for the gospel, but I also, um, I don't move too quickly. Like I'm really trying to build something well and very intentional. So I'm hope I'm there for a long time because I've asked priests like, when did you feel like your parish, you know, like I've been there for 12 years. When did it feel like you were the father

of this community or, and it's, I get different answers, you know, but some priests have said like five years, took five years before I really felt like they really knew me and I really knew them and they knew my heart and we could really start to move. And some guys are shorter. So anyway, I think that's,

I think it's good to have both, you know? Like the Lord could come back tomorrow or. I guess you don't want to be so indispensable that if you move the parish falls apart. Yeah, I mean, I would think that was that was kind of bad leadership, to be honest. So if everything falls apart when you leave, that's probably you didn't do a good enough job. Yeah, I mean, if I'm really pointing people back to the sacraments, to the Eucharist, to confession, to the teaching of the faith Well, then those things keep going are they falling in love with are they falling in love with Jesus or me?

You know, and of course, you know, I have a personality and my personality supposed to be a bridge and an obstacle to Christ as John Paul II says So that's all real and beautiful and we need love to be mediated through the incarnation of realities But having said all that my desire is to like at the mass to lead them to the Lord. So if you like leave your parish and like half your parish goes with you, I'd be like heartbroken. It's like friends that I've miss form you. Like I'm like you God's going to take care of you. You know, he's your father, you know? So follow Joan Pax. Thanks for being on the show. Thanks for having me. God.