Pints With Aquinas - Mthr. Natalia and Fr. O'Loughlin

Episode Date: May 26, 2023

Matt is joined by Byzantine Catholic Religious Mthr. Natalia and Fr. Michael for a free range discussion on teh spiritual life.   https://whatgodisnot.com

Hey Matt, yeah, I hear that uh, the june's coming up what's going on there? Okay, so you might not know this But june is the month in which catholics dedicate to venerating the sacred heart of jesus and that's it that's all you're allowed to do in june you're allowed to Celebrate anything else you might be looking around and thinking gee everybody's celebrating god's covenant with noah That's not what they're doing. And so we want to take back this month for the Sacred Heart, which is why we've put together this really beautiful t-shirt says Reclaim the Month. It's a way to show that we stand in opposition against the sexual debauchery

that's being pushed on us and promoted in our society, and instead we want to turn to Jesus Christ. And it's a great conversation starter starter So please click the link in the description below and pick up a t-shirt today. I mean you guys have your own podcast It's it's why ill it's it's laid back. It's calm here. I am glad it started live as he's struggling to light a match I was trying to avoid that being known with father Michael O'Loughlin and my Muslim friend You only have one man, not. Unless you told me you're not Muslim, in which case I have none. I'm open to having friends. That's going to be the next thing.

Matt Fred says Muslims are funny. Can we can we explain that I'm not a Muslim and that I'm actually a nun? I'll go for it. Um, I am not a Muslim. I am actually a nun and I'm Mother Natalia. It is lovely to have you. How many people accidentally, or how many people go, hey, what's up mama? And then go, oh, shouldn't have done that.

Nobody's ever done that? Just you, Matt. Yeah. Did you hear me say that to you this morning when you came to the coffee shop? I'm like, what's up mama? All right. I heard it. I thought that was pretty funny.

I didn't hear it. Did you actually say that when I came in? Yeah, I did All right. I heard it. I thought that was pretty funny. I didn't hear it. Did you actually say that when I came in? Yeah, I did. Yeah, no. It was funnier cause no one reacted. I go him, Padre, and you mama. Yeah.

Which is like so loud, right? No, people do that sometimes. Call me mama or something, yeah. I actually put Padre, if I'm getting coffee or something like that, I'll put Padre. Like LA is so Hispanic that most people get it like You guys have no respect that you're just smoking cigars in front of a nun. Well, you've already condemned us for it I'm gonna lift this fan up so we can blow some of this

Mass just blowing smoke in his interview. I need to tell you that I just did not blow smoke in your face Even though it went through my mind These are the best kind of interviews you need to do your creepy badger face again like These are the best kind of Just how I look it's like when people say, you look really tired. You're like, I had a great night's sleep. Father Michael knows to not say that to me because we've had lots of arguments about it. And then one time we were recording a podcast and

we can when we record our podcast, it's audio only, but we can see each other. And he told me that basically I looked terrible how did you say that I'm sure you didn't say that I think I said are you doing okay you under a lot of spiritual attack I care for you so much right now just a little bit concerned yeah I could do to help so then the next episode we recorded he's like I I know that last episode I said that like you looked really tired. You looked like you know whatever well I just want to double down on that All the things I know she can take it and

Well, what's funny about my wife is she's not a words of affirmation woman She's a like do something for me woman like if I put together a little thing for her She's like oh my gosh, but if I'm like babe you are just friggin gorgeous. And I say that because I mean it. I'm very effusive in how I talk about her. She doesn't care at all. But one time I say, dude, I said to my wife yesterday, what if we did like whitening strips on our teeth together? She was crushed. I said, great pearly white teeth. You've got great white teeth. But as I'm getting older, they're looking greener. And so I said to her, her what do you like whitening teeth? She's like, do you think what why do you say that about my teeth? I Started using whitening toothpaste because father Nathan's wife. So I love her immensely. We're like brother sister. So this is my my old assistant's wife

She just came and left whitening strips on my desk And it was like, and it was from Ali. I love Ali so much. No, it was the pen, this little whitening pen. She's like, hope you aren't offended. Just like, you know, I figured we love each other enough. I can do this.

I'm like, I love you, Ali. I really, this is what I need. I need a woman because no man's going to do that. I need a woman who, who is not going to run our friendship. Did you follow up with her and say, is this exactly what you meant? Right. Did you follow up? Oh no, I did this exactly what you meant? Right. Did you follow up? Oh no I did. I told her I was like thank you. I actually really appreciate the...

I actually think you have good teeth. We were sitting on my stoop the other day and I looked at you and I thought you had nice white teeth. Well I actually, I used the pen a few times just for her sake. Ah, maybe that's why you have such teeth. But then I went and bought like whitening toothpaste. And I'm like well okay, I mean if she's going to point it out. I did have a guy one time, I can't remember saying all of this, but I had a guy one time,

a seminarian come and say like, I asked him, can I borrow your car? He's like, yeah, if you shave your nose hair. And I was like, what, what like a beautifully passive, aggressive way of saying, by the way, you may want to buy a nose hair, but it's the worst time of your life. Did you say beautifully passive aggressive?

Yeah, it's like, it's a dude thing. I was glad he did it rather than just being like, he's the one with the nose hair. And you had a relationship with him such that it wasn't so. Kind of. I was giving him the it rather than just being like, he's the one with the nose hair. And you had a relationship with him such that it wasn't so. Kind of. Oh, I was giving him the benefit of the doubt. I need people in my life to do that.

Well, I get this one black long hair that comes out of this ear. Oh. And you see it because of the lights. I'm like, what the hell? Apparently no one in my life loved me enough to tell me. That's the thing, I like having those people in my life. I think the hypothesis that I've heard someone say is as men get older

They lack the strength to push the hair out the top of their head And so instead it comes out of their nose and ears you said that out loud to me. Okay. Yeah. Oh, yeah I guess Single hair, you know, I guess turkey is known for hair transplants Out of the many things it's known for it may be known. I guess they have this like industry of insecure men getting their hair plugged because I was just there and there's a bunch of men it looks like their head has been third degree burns. Yeah. And they can't put a hat on or anything. Me and father Jason were there and there was we saw like seven or eight people

just walking around the airport. Thoughts on hair plugs? So I- Is that hair plugs? Is that the same thing as a hair transplant? I'm gonna take that question very seriously. I think so. My personal thoughts on it are- You're actually taking this?

Oh yeah, I'm gonna take it seriously. I really do think that I would be more embarrassed for people to know I was vain enough to do hair plugs and I would be so paranoid that someone Realized there were hair plugs or knew there and that would be so much more embarrassing to me to be seen as As arrogant rather than like their arrogance. I do truly have just like shaving my head and not letting it be thin I love the honesty there because what you're saying is it's your pride. Oh, yeah, it wouldn't oh, yeah Absolutely. Absolutely. If I was married and my wife's like get hair plugs, I'd be like honey come on.

This is one of the hardest things you've ever asked me to do is to like I'll do it for you but. What's worse hair plugs or boob jobs? And I'm not talking about like. I think they're about the same. If you. Yeah. I'm talking I'm not talking about what's the difference again between plastic surgery and then well Matt

If a woman had to have a double mistake Or if a woman has to have a breast reduction because of back problems or something like that Okay, I guess we're not gonna talk about You have to sell the baton you want to talk about hair plugs and boob jobs Yep You have two solubits on and you want to talk about hair plugs and boob jobs. Yep. You said, what do you said, what's the difference? She heard me, but I was explaining, well, hair plugs go on the hair and boob jobs. You don't want to get those messed up.

Right. Let's start again. Let's start again. This is mean. Good thing you decided to go live. This is great. Father Michael actually has a bald spot, I love you a lot,

has a bald spot on the back of his head that's in the shape of a dove. And we used to, at the parish, like notice it. Did you just turn around and show it to the camera? I don't know that you can see it that clearly in the light. The dove has grown very fat. Yeah, it's true, it's white now.

It used to be a little of a weight dove. What I actually meant was like 12 years ago, he had a bald spot in the shape of a dove. And so we would comment on this at the parish. When he was like facing the altar, you could see the dove and it's like, oh, it's because the Holy Spirit and his ordination and that's beautiful. But the parishioners who were not as pleased with him at points said that it was actually a duck. Oh, a chicken. A chicken. Yeah. Looks like a chicken, not a dove. Yeah. Thank you. But I think I always thought it was a dove. Thank you. You're welcome. So explain to people how you I was going to say your relationship.

But yeah, like you're her spiritual father. So I love your I love your relationship. It's very beautiful and free. Thank you. As a spiritual father, I'm going gonna ask you not to argue with me here she came on a date a guy brought her to the parish on a date and and And and she came one time and then They broke up or they they never want a second day. I'll put that way I'll let you give the story after he gives the story so you give you a budget. We should have her leave

See if it's the same yeah, but the So and then they never went on a second date I thought you were telling me not to are you because you're about to say nice things about me I thought that's what was happening And then so then they they they never want a second date, but they both continued to come into the parish He was a person of the time. She continued to come into the parish And then very beautifully, I think we kind of clicked after one or two just attend. So you come twice and she asked me to be her spiritual father almost right off the bat. So we had our first spiritual direction. I remember sitting on the steps of the house across the church. I don't

remember much. I remember that at the steps on the house across from the church. And then after that we just we we continued meeting and I became her spiritual father and we our personalities clicked and and I was very very honored then to walk her through all the craziness of college life. She was in college at the time and then and then all the discernment and I think she needed the type of discernment of celibacy that I received. So I think that was it, because I'm very careful,

I'm an assistant vocations director. I'm very, very careful. And my head vocation director told me this long time ago, don't assume that everybody struggles with celibacy the same way you did. Because I've always assumed that, but she did. Pretty much, we needed to have the experience of the opportunity to marry someone that was holy.

Like I dated a lot of girls that in like first college and one of the community college that it was fun, but I wouldn't want them to be the mother of my children and the other way around, same thing with me. Like we just didn't click, so it was fun for a while, but they would never have married me. And I would never have married them. But so with her she I said do you

need this experience do you need the experience of dating someone who's good and Catholic and you want to be the father of your children and and she said yes and so I think that ability because celibacy was my definitely my biggest discernment as a priest especially being a Byzantine priest since I could have been a married priest and again for those at home this is mother Natalia was in college she wasn't yet in the monastery hadn't yet. Correct, correct. She was only in college.

I had been a priest, but maybe seven, eight years, something like that. Six years. Six years, thank you. She's also an engineer, so she does math better than me. So she was in college. Anyway, so the walk through the discernment was really, really beautiful. And I think we really bonded as spiritual father

and spiritual daughter during that time, but also just had a real friendship. I know that's not always possible to do those, to have those two things at once. I think we are actually a great example that it is possible to do those two things at once, because she is, if I switch from like, kind of annoying older brother to to spiritual father.

If I do that, she immediately sees the difference. And I and I do too. And she will immediately switch into I need to take this very seriously because the spirit speaking to my spiritual father type thing. And since she can do that so well, and I think I can too, thank God, I think it should just really, really work so that when I was on Catholic stuff, you should know, and one of the listeners to that podcast, when I moved to LA, just pretty much said,

I want you to do another podcast, I will give you as much money as you need to start this, and it sent me $3,000, and I bought mics, and I stuff like that, and then I was brainstorming, like, who would be a good banter partner? Who would be a good partner to talk about the things I really, really love? And she just obviously popped into my mind

and I thought, well, it's our life together. Like when I was on Catholic stuff with me and Father Nathan Goble, like our life together would make good entertaining. And so I just figured that was the case with us too. And I wanna get to your podcast later, but I'd love to hear your side of the story about how you all got through each other.

Well, first of all, it was not a date. Have we ever asked that guy whether or not he thought it was a date? I'll text him. And by date, do you mean you went to church with him? You should text him right now. Text him and ask him if he thinks it was a date. But don't say his name on the...

Okay. Yeah. What'd you ask, Matt? When you say it was a date, did he mean it was a date to church or...? Yes, that's what he thinks. It absolutely was not. I did go on a date with this guy at some point, but it was not to church. Before that or after that?

After that. Oh, okay. Yeah. I'll submit. And that was our first and only date. Okay. See, this actually, this is not not for us, but there would be a really good conversation because it happened before about what is a date because I have, I have friends that you like, the man has to say, can I take you on a date

and how important that is so that nobody's confused whether it's a date or not. And this is a manifestation. So I will actually, I will say, if he didn't ask you on a date, then it wasn't a date. 12 years, this is the first time you've said that. That's what I do. I bring people together, I resolve issues.

Thank you so much, Matt. You should be a couple of times. I'm growing in my understanding of what it means and what a man should do when he asks women out He needs to be explicit that it's a date or it's not just say it's not a date It's just lunch. I want to see if I want to ask you on a date or I want to see if you want to say yes This lunch is a test run to see if I want to ask you anything If we want yeah if we want to do something more intentional

I can just see the short clips here. Like we promised any kind. Yeah. Conversations with a celibate hair plugs, boob jobs and dating advice. She just came up with the title for the whole episode. I don't think that's a no. Yeah, definitely not. So. Yeah, so I will tell the actual story now that you've heard Father Michael's version, so I. The background, I don't even know if Father Michael knows all this background, actually.

So I was having like a really, really hard time in college after my reversion to the faith. And I was super depressed and yeah, I was just really struggling, and my friends knew that I was struggling. They didn't know how much I was struggling, but one friend in particular, he was like, I really think that you should talk to this priest, and I was like, yeah, absolutely not. I'm not interested in talking to a priest at all, and he didn't convince me to, but then I went to a theology on tap with some friends. And then Father Michael happened to be

at that theology on tap. And so the friend was like, this is the priest that I was talking about that I think you should talk to. And so I talked to Father Michael that night, like just kind of got to know him a little bit, not about anything deep. And then that same friend took me to the parish just to experience the Byzantine

liturgy, not because he well, anyways, it wasn't a date is the point. And well, hindsight. She's going to admit that she was partly wrong, too. No, no, no, I was not wrong. I just I've only just realized that maybe that was part of his motivation. But that the trip to the church was not a date. And then. Yes, established. And when. Yeah, so I went to liturgy, I fell in love with the liturgy. And after just going there

once or twice, that's when we met. Also, like, why were we on the steps of the house across from the church? I've never really thought about that was that like weird to those people because we were we've talked for like two or three hours Quarantine in their house because I think it's my ADHD. I just I would much rather walk Well, I do spiritual direction then sit in one place Yeah, father Michael and I would like almost never have spiritual direction just like sitting in the church It was always like we were having scotch and a cigar or at a coffee shop or out for lunch or out for a beer Or something like that. It was always

Yeah, again, that's a typical I realized but Anyways, so then yeah We had that first meeting and I just like told him everything and I told him things that I'd never told anyone in my life and just like poured it all out and he just received me so beautifully and and really gave me a lot of a lot of hope. And yeah, and I think things just clicked from there. I think the rest of what he said is accurate.

So I think that part's all true. But how long into spiritual direction did you start discerning the monastery? Oh, oh, that's that's actually a funny story. So we I mean, maybe not funny, but I I'll let you know. I became so we started spiritual direction in 2011. So he's been my spiritual father for 12 years. I started discerning with the monastery really in like maybe 2013 or 14, so two or three years into it.

Yeah. But apparently, so we started Direction in like February of 2011. And then that summer we were at an ordination. And the nuns from, from Christ the Bride, your monastery, the three who at the time were at the monastery, were also at the ordination and they were talking to Father Michael. Again, he's been my spiritual father at this point for like a few months and I have no interest whatsoever in monasticism. I only had interest in like men and babies. That's all I wanted.

And Father Michael pulls one of the nuns aside and says, like, hey, keep an eye on this girl. I think she has a vocation. Didn't tell me this at all because he knew, I'm sure, within like two seconds of meeting me that I would have been way too hardheaded to receive that. And it probably would have delayed my discernment because I would have, like, pushed it off just to prove him out of stubbornness. Yes, absolutely. So he never told me this. He just told her. And I found this out when I entered the monastery in 2015, four years later,

then told me about this conversation. How wonderful. Yeah. So. I just so he was discerning it before me. One thing I saw in her was and she was she was so committed to whatever God wanted. And I knew that like I knew knew that I discerned celibacy when I was in Austria with the most, when I was like hanging out with the most amazing girl

I'd ever met in my life, holy, beautiful, everything about her, it completely independent would have made an amazing priest wife. And I sat in the chapel and God explicitly told me, you can marry her and you'd be very, very happy. But you'll be if you're a prayerful celibate, that's where I want you. OK. And like you can be very happy in the world, successful in every way. But and then and then I go back to school.

I she was only in Austria. I went back to school. I'm going to be celibate. Fell head over heels for different girl. And I was like, I knew she wouldn't do that. If she was committed to God's will, if she had that same experience I did, she wouldn't have met somebody else the next semester.

We're like, oh, nevermind, you know, like I did. So there was something about her and I thought this, so she, if God calls her to monasticism, she will say yes and she'll stick it out, I know that. I've gotten criticism from quite a few people even recently for kind of talking up the the permanence of her vocation. Life profession is life profession. She's now gonna be life professed forever and she's committed herself to Christ. I did that even before

you were life professed. We actually had a bishop kind of get mad at me for talking like she was there forever and I get it. I'm glad he did that even before you were Life Proffessed. We actually had a bishop kind of get mad at me for talking like she was there forever. And I get it, I'm glad he did that. Is the criticism that you were saying that before she was Life Proffessed? That was the first criticism, yes. But the second criticism was, because one of my parishioners is a filmmaker

and she's making a documentary about her discernment and her life profession. I've seen it, she's seen it too. It's amazing, amazing documentary. It's now in the festivals. It'll be hopefully out soon. But somebody, when I've seen it, she's seen it too. It's amazing, amazing documentary. It's now in the festivals. It'll be hopefully out soon. But somebody, when I posted this online, somebody said, whenever I see a young nun

or a young priest become like in the public, I never pay money to see that because there's a good chance they're gonna leave. I think he meant they're gonna leave because of the persona, because of the public, because of the fame, whatever you wanna call it. And that's why I totally get that. So I just responded, I think I get it, pray for her.

And that's all I was like, I get it, true, but you don't know her. And now again, she's a sinner like I am, but after 12 years, if our Lord asks you to do the hardest thing in the world, I know she's going to do it. Much more than I can, and much more than most people can, because I've seen her do very, very hard things.

Like, I know her personality enough. I've seen her do really, really hard things with immense grace. And so I know it's built into her, and I can see it's built into the nature as well, not only the grace, and our Lord has been using that in her. So there's something about that that she is just a great example of what that is. So when I first met her and I thought,

like when I'm okay, I'm a spiritual father, I'm gonna be helping her discern. And as soon as I started thinking in prayer about her vocation, the monastery came to mind and I was like, yes, like that, that she will, she'll take every step necessary, feel all the struggles, all the pains, endure them, she'll get a lot of things wrong and then she'll get them right over time.

And it's just, it's gonna work, you know? So I figured if our Lord was calling her, which I had an inkling he was, that she was gonna walk down that path. Because I know many people are obviously called to vocations that they don't go down that path, whether it's marriage or celibacy or second marriage, whatever it is. And I knew that she would be, she had the virtue in her to follow through. When you joined the monastery till you made your life profession, how many years was that?

Great question. Roughly. Six years. OK. How many times during that six years did you have a serious doubt, maybe due to a love interest or the desire for children, that you thought, I might need to leave? I think probably twice. OK.

And one of those was very shortly before my life profession. One of them, I made my life profession in September of 2021. It was supposed to be May of 2020, right? We've talked about this on here before, I'm sure, but it was delayed thrice because of COVID. And I think that this experience was one of the gifts of the delay.

Like COVID is objectively an evil because sickness, death, all of these are objective evils, right? But Romans eight, God uses all for good for those who love him. And so I really think that this is one of the ways in which he used something that is an objective evil and he used it for good because I was supposed to make my life profession in May of 2020. In April of 2021,

I had just like serious doubts. And I remember I called Father Michael. I'm not going to get into what the doubts were, so don't even worry about that. I know that's where your brain is probably going. And I called Father Michael and I was coming on retreat and I was like, Father Michael, I need like there have been plenty of times in our relationship where I've said to him, like, I'm I'm worried about this. I'm having a vocation crisis. I'm whatever. And he kind of laughs it off

because he knows me and he knows that like, she's going to get over this. This isn't really something serious. Yes. And so I had the conversation and I was like, father, Michael, I, I'm not like, I might need to leave the monastery. And he was like, he was like, okay. And I said, I, I'm coming on retreat and I want to discern that with you. And if you're not open to actually discerning that with me and you're not going to take it seriously, I need to go on retreat somewhere else.

And he was like, I will absolutely take it seriously. And so I went on retreat and and he did. And every day we're talking through the things and we're working through it and and praying and processing. And and at at at no point did he like try to brush anything off. At no point did he, you know, he was like, these are good questions. These are hard questions. And I know that like I have so, so, so much more confidence in my vocation now

because of that retreat. Yeah. So yeah. Yeah, I had to prayerfully sit with the fact that she may leave the monastery and start looking for a guy and I might be celebrating a wedding and baptizing kids. Like I had to, I had to like mentally prepare myself even in prayer for that reality and say also that I wouldn't judge it. You know, if that was the case, I know I would continue loving her and support her and whatever she did, but would I, in my mind, in the back of my mind,

would I say that this is a bad thing, just because it was so sure in my mind for so long? So I went through that, and I think I even went through it one time, which while we were talking, while we were in spiritual direction. How much of your own pride was wrapped up in that, given that it was really you who encouraged her and was praying for her to get to the monastery?

It's a great story. You can talk about how you helped this beautiful woman become. Was there part with you wrestling with that at all? I think I was, but it was it was pretty surface. So for instance, like I knew. Like those type of challenges I love. I love the challenge. That's one of the reasons why I started to do celibacy is because I just wanted the challenge of what everybody else, what satisfies 95% of other men, I'm not gonna have.

And I love that challenge. Like what gets a man through the day, his wife and his kids, I'm not gonna have that. Can I do it? Like there was that, and that of course can lead to pride and an immense downfall if we don't surrender to Christ. But there had been people that in the parish who were like, I mean, she she was criticized quite a bit in our parish

just for I think it was out of jealousy and envy. It was out of because of her zeal. And she was just so excited for the faith and so excited. And the people that just it people saw that. And I think they were envious of her joy in many ways. And so she got a lot of criticism. So I would hear things. There were like informal bets going around of how long I would last in the monastery.

It was really it was there. There was there was the devil was there. And it was not I'm not saying people that said that were were possessive. But there was the devil was there in the criticism that she was getting, the criticism that I was getting. So part of me wanted what what would have loved for that human surface level to be able to say she went through with it, you know, and if she hadn't, I would have eaten crow a bit with them. I would have been fine, you know, her, her, her vocation

would have triumphed over any of that, but it still would have hurt a bit. So yeah, good question. The morning of my wedding, I went out for breakfast and when the waitress found out I was getting married that day, she looked at me and went run and gave me this terribly cynical, unhappy look. And that is kind of like the people who said, I'm not going to pay to watch this movie of someone. In a sense, it's like it comes from somewhere and it's justifiable

given their experience. But it's sad because it doesn't have to be that way. And the joy and enthusiasm that one feels for their vocation as they're entering into it is going to mature and it's going to have ebbs and flows. But that's part of it. It's not like in order to be a successful monastic, I have to be as excited today as I was when I entered. Just like as a married man.

You know, like when my wife kissed me on the cheek this morning, I didn't say to myself, I will never wash my cheek again. And I think I ever said that to begin with, but you know what I mean? Like, yeah, yeah. It's what C.S. Lewis talks about of like being given the the time of falling in love as a gift from God in order to then love. Because there's not a lot of movies about there's a lot of movies about men and women who fall in love. There's not a lot of movies about there's a lot of movies about men and women who fall in love.

There's not a lot of movies about middle aged men and women who aren't as attractive as they once were loving each other. Fargo may be an exception to that. There was a long time ago. Yeah, but. But I remember a bishop saying in a homily, like, ask any married man after a year, like, is the sex enough? married man after a year, like is the sex enough? And ask any priest after a year, and the same could be said of a religious woman, is the fact that people call you mother or father enough? And the answer is obviously no, so maybe speak to that. Did you have a point in your priesthood

where you were like, I don't know, questioning whether you made the right decision or you don't seem like someone who would do that actually. No, and this is is you and your wife me and your wife were talking about this yesterday because there is a I Know that most people have those moments and I've just been graced and the reason I know I was like, let's be clear that you're an exception Yeah, I know I'm exception because and I I truly believe that I'm not just being falsely humble here

I truly believe that that because I know I have an addictive personality and I know how weak I am in certain ways, that I know if those questions became real, I probably would fall. And so I think our Lord is spoon feeding me. Our Lord has been carrying me for a long time. I had a funny moment. I saw a friend I hadn't seen in years and years and years, one of my buddies from Steubenville. And I went out there to give a talk near him. This guy is very, very blunt. And he's always, the whole time I've him. This guy is very, very blunt.

And he's always, the whole time I've known him, he's been a great friend, but very blunt. And if you don't take what he says correctly, it could be like an insult. And so he's starting to say, and he's like, are you still, we're sitting having a cigar. And he's like, 20 years later, are you still just like always happy

and always faithful and joyful? And I said, yeah. And he goes. It's real annoying. And then he sits there and he's like, 20 years later, are you still just like always happy and always faithful and joyful? And I said, yeah, and he goes. It's real annoying. And then he sits there and he goes, he goes, you know, you, I'm waiting for the insult, because that's how he's, he's like, you would be a great candidate

for the Dark Knight. And I go, I'm thinking he's calling me a sociopath. And so I say- He's the Dark Knight of the soul, no Batman. Right, I didn't know that. So I go, am I the Joker or am I Batman? And the whole room erupts in laughter because I'm thinking he's calling me

like a total sociopath where I just don't feel anything, right, or I do what I want, but then I don't feel any guilt. And then, and they all start laughing and thank God his wife's like, I thought the same thing. But like, they're all, he's like, no, dark knight of the soul.

But there was, it was so true. Cause I thought my faith and my vocation that are both bound up in my relationship with Christ, I am so affirmed by Christ all the time that leads to the sin of presumption, which I struggle with. I'm so affirmed by Christ all the time that if he ever takes that away,

I won't know how to cope. I think it's important to make that distinction between how we naturally are and supernaturally graced. And it's important because otherwise you might think you have to be more like him or I might feel that way. But actually that just might be your natural tendency and I think it probably is. And you ever meet people like that? You're like, gosh, if I just prayed more then maybe I could be continually optimistic and extroverted the way he is It's like no. Yeah, that's not the Lord hasn't called you to be father Michael I like him he hasn't called you to be Padre Pio if he wanted you to be Padre Pio you'd have been Padre Pio

Yeah, so how do we how do we come to kind of reconcile those parts of ourselves that we wish were different? Not making excuses for our vices, but accepting our personalities. Do you see what I'm saying? Because his mother. I don't know. I think I think we have to just we have to get to a place where we can trust that whatever graces we need, God will provide.

And I don't just say that as like a nice pious thing to say, I say that from experience of there's so much that I would have thought I couldn't handle in life that I really can't without God. But my own vices, my own weaknesses, I can only get through with the Lord. You know, I had an experience recently, just a few weeks ago where, so I've never had, since life profession, I've not had any doubts about my vocation, right? And it's been a year and a half, so it's still very new.

But not even for a single moment. Have I had any doubts? And, but a few weeks ago I had, I was experiencing in prayer like several days in a row, just this profound, this profound grace of the greatest confidence I've ever had in my vocation. And it's like, and it was in the midst of a lot of external difficulties. And I was just like, I don't know why I'm so completely confident in my vocation right now. I didn't ask for this grace. It's something the Lord is just giving me.

I thank you for it. I'm not sure why it's here. And then the next week, I was at a formators workshop with Mother Gabriella because she's the formation director for our community and I'm the vocation director. And at the formators workshop, Formators Workshop with Mother Gabriella because she's the formation director for our community and I'm the vocation director. And at the Formators Workshop, they're going through the theme was evaluating the candidate in her totality and a lot of it was on like psychological evaluation stuff. And as they're going through the talks, I'm

sitting there and I'm like, wow, yeah, like my community should have never taken me and and I really think, but I had even in that moment, I had no doubts, I had no regrets, I had no questionings and I think it's because the Lord gave me that grace ahead of time, like just the week before he had given me this this utmost confidence. And I think it was for that reason and it wasn't just in my head, right? Like Mother Gabriela told me the evening of one of the days, she was like, just so you know, I didn't want to interrupt the talk. But at this point, when they were sharing

like red flags, I just wanted to lean over to you and say, you're not inadequate. She's like, because she knows, like we're looking at the red flags and we look at each other and we're like, well, Mother Natalia had three of those five when she entered. And and I think which which was also like this is slightly off topic, but it also was this moment of like strange confirmation for me of my role as vocation director. Because when when Mother Theodora asked me to be the vocation director, I'm like, we are scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Like this is we're we're really kind of desperate right now, not for vocations, but for a vocation director, apparently. And I'm just like, this was a crazy choice. And and when I'm at this workshop and this happens, I'm like. This this is, I think, part of why this is the Lord's will for me to be the vocation director is because I'm going to see in the women discerning with us a capacity for grace that I know was was within myself, because I don't think the community made

the wrong choice accepting me. That that can't be the case across the board, right? There there are women that we're going to have to say like, no, you can't discern with us. Or there will be women who it's like, maybe you don't even have any of these red flags, but there also aren't green flags. And so we need to be cautious of that too. Like if the Lord's not asking you to be in our community, we also don't want you to be in our community because it's not for your good and it's not for ours.

But I think I would be more open to some women who do actually have a vocation to monastic life than maybe others would be who haven't experienced that transformation themselves. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. I don't think you're at all inadequate. I think you'd be a beautiful,

I hope you don't really think that. I mean, I guess in some sense, we all have to accept that we're inadequate. And that's just the reality. Like I'm an inadequate husband, I'm an inadequate father. So fair enough. Well, and I didn't think it because the Lord had prepared me for this

and he had given me the grace to deal with it. And I guess that's what I mean is like one of those things that I have that I know is not healthy is this like this tendency towards self condemnation, like where father Michael tends to presumption, I tend to scrupulosity. I'm with you. And and so I think this is one of those examples of, of the Lord giving us what we need, even for our own particular vices. Like he knew before that workshop that I was going to immediately question myself and my vocation. If he didn't

tell me ahead of time, you're, this is, this is right. This is where I want you. Um, and so he, he gives us the tools that we need and the grace that we need if we're open to receiving it. What I love about your monastery and what I love about the monastery in Wisconsin, what are their names? Holy Resurrection. Yeah, what I love about this is the only two monasteries I've spent any degree of time with in the East.

There's a human-ness to it. There's like an acceptance of our humanity. Even just the beginning of this conversation, I'm joking about boob jobs and hair implants and that and that there's no sense in which, oh, I cannot broach that. There's no kind of like artificial piety. I don't sense that when I chat with you all. I just sense this deep holiness, right? And a deep desire for holiness, but also not a fear of the human and the fleshly and the... And that is just so beautiful because, um, I'm sure that there are, maybe there are monasteries that take that too far.

And it's like, yeah, you really should really be curbing how you speak and how you act. This is inappropriate. But I imagine in a world like ours where there is so much degeneracy that maybe the pendulum swings the other way and you walk into a sort of robotic type of monastery or religious order where you can't just sort of be yourself as you grow in holiness. And yourself is the very thing the Lord wants to make holy, right? Not the fake version of yourself, but which you see this in the East all the time. I also might. Yeah, sorry. I just real quick. I also see the fries of the renewal. Like when I the fries, the renewal remind me of y'all.

There's just this humanity. There's this like masculinity in the men there who just love our Lord. And and, you know, they're getting arrested at, you know, Planned Parenthood clinics and they're there. But they're and they're rapping and they're, you know, but they're also just men of deep prayer. But there's a there's a humanity to them that I just feel free with all of my mess and all my baggage.

And this is true of you. And this is why your podcast is so successful. People come to you and they feel like they don't have to edit themselves to be accepted. And it's a beautiful thing. Yeah. Yeah. And so what I was going to say is you this has always been something that we see in the East and it might be in the West as well. I'm just not as familiar with like the Western monastics. But, um, in the East, when you read about the monastics and, um,

and the desert fathers and things like this, like they are all so idiosyncratic, like they're all just so, um, different and so unique. And they have all of these like quirks and all of these, you know, and there's like, oh, there's the monk who's known for being very hairy and there's the monk who's known for like, you know, and it's just if you've met one woman from Christ the Bridegroom monastery, you've met one woman. Exactly. Which is something.

But, you know, something that someone has commented on before, I don't even remember if I don't think it was the, I think it was someone else, but they said that something they really appreciate about our monastery is we're all so unique. And there's like, we each have our own personality and yet there is a common spirit of the monastery. So it's, it's not like we're each just there living our own separate lives. We are also very much like there's a common spirit throughout the monastery, and I think there's a great truth to that. I just love bringing my kids to your monastery and just how motherly y'all were to my children.

Like you're bringing out board games, you're playing with them, you're belly laughing with them, and it is just so beautiful. Real quick, what is your website for those young women watching who may want to discern with y'all? Christthebridegroom.org. Make sure you put in two T's. It's not Chris the bridegroom or Christhebridegroom. Yeah, yeah. That happens a lot. And what's going on with your monarchy right now? Are you getting more and more applicants these days than you were say five,

10 years ago? We are. I've actually, I closed down our vocation inquiry forum for a couple of months because we're yeah, it's um It's yeah, it's not a problem. How big? I mean the the only problem is that like it's too much to manage, but it's not a we're not having like a vocation How many women until you split off into another monastery? Um, I think once we got to about 15 15 or 20 we'd probably split to a second monastery and it wouldn't be, it wouldn't be like our monasteries, the mother

house, it would be a totally autonomous monastery is the model that the East follows. I think with the Carmelite sisters, it's nine, maybe I might be mistaken, but I know there's a small amount that Mother Teresa of Avila wanted and then the same thing. Yeah, we want it to be always kind of like a family size. Yeah. I mean, a large family, but yeah, we I don't think we ever want more than like 20 in one one. I never when I back to this topic of doubts invocation when I had some doubts leading up to proposing to Cameron. When I had some doubts leading up to proposing to Cameron, in fact, the day of I called my friend in Australia and I expressed some doubts and he said, what the hell are you worried

about you idiot? She's better than you anyway. You should propose before she finds that out. That was his idea. So that night I proposed to her and I had no doubt at all. But I will say that once family life was in full swing and the demands of young children who don't sleep. And at that point, I worried, and it probably has more to do with my personality than objective reality. I worried that I'd made the wrong decision because maybe I was just like idealistic

and horny and all of those things. And so I talked myself into this vocation that I can now get out of. But I think it's important to be really honest about those things. And I use the word, I use that abrasive word horny for a reason, because I think people need to deal with what they're actually dealing with, not run it through a filter and then have you respond to the filtered version. And what I found is the more honest I am

about my own experience, the more people go, me too. It's like, we're all in this together, this. I'm not special. To go back to when I said in the spirit of that. And I think this is also the gift of our Lord. I've had probably 10 times in almost 18 years now where where I'll have an evening of just immense loneliness. And it's such a deep human loneliness that I will go to bed saying, like, I don't know if I can do this for another day. And I'll go to bed, but our Lord in the middle of the night

just graces me and I wake up a new day. And I think that that's the grace of that. So I've thanked God that that did not last an extended period of time, because I think it's built into me and I have enough community around me that I would not leave. I don't I by the grace of God and the love of my friends and family, I would never step away from my solitude, my priesthood. But I would just be really depressed for a very long time if our Lord didn't give me back that zeal the next day.

And I think it's probably a lack of prayer that day. It's probably a lack of focus and a virtue that day. But I have taken those moments. And I really like I've read Lord of the Rings twice now. And the first time the end of the third book annoyed me to no end because it was like everything's done. All the conflict is done. Why is everybody so happy for so long?

Like the book should be over. The ring is destroyed. Sorry. Spoiler alert. And then if you don't know that by now, it's on you. And then and then they go back to the shot. And it's just like earlier before the spoiler. OK, sorry. And so like they go back.

And but the second time I read it, that was my favorite part because I thought and I loved the description of the weariness of the hobbits, the weariness of the king. So I actually have a bit of healthy envy for those who have had struggles because I think when I see, I had this, I listened to a podcast one time and I was so angry at the end.

I don't even remember what podcast it was, but it was about this whole trend on social media. Yeah, no, well, no. It was this whole trend of social media where women, after they've had a child, will work out and they'll get healthy again. And they're all of a sudden saying, I'm seeing with my husband again.

And it's as good as it was, you know, before he had the baby and they're calling it snapback. I like, you know, what a good snapback. And doctors are literally telling women, do not go on social media for months after you have your child, because you're gonna see all these women that are more fit than you that are talking about the sex life is better than you do

like ignore those things because those are not the case and so i preached on it and i said i said men please like your women like sorry like when their body is weary like when their body is not what it used to be when their body shows signs of having a child, their stomach is different, you know, everything is different, like that's the sign of the weariness of health, that that's the kings at the end of Lord of the Rings, that like we have a wisdom that came through struggle,

we have a virtue that came through struggle, and I'm a little bit envious of that, like I'm envious of people that have gone through those struggles and have come out the other side okay, and are now a better manner woman for it. And I think it's not only the women that are watching this and getting jealous, it's also the men that are having unfair expectations of their wife after they have a child

or if they've had multiple children. And it's like, you should be looking at your wife and you should be mature enough at this point, I imagine speaking out of complete ignorance, to say my perception of love and my perception of beauty, I love the wedding at Cana because you've saved the good wine for now. Like later in the marriage, like most people,

the best part of the marriage is the beginning. But you Lord, you've saved the good wine for now till the end of the wedding, when it's over abundant. And now you and your wife are like living true holiness when you're both a little bit weary and you've both made mistakes. You both forgive each other over and over and over again.

And you revere that in them. You see God working in them. You take a step back from them and you revere what God is doing in their life independent of you and you see that more as a gift. Because I say, God has made this person so beautiful and he still gives this person to me every day to be a spouse and so there's something about that

that I, hopefully one day I'll have that and it won't break me. You know, I'm afraid it will break me but if it doesn't break me, then amen. But so, if you're struggling with the fact that you wanna be more like someone like me, like know that it goes the other way as well. I also look at you and I say,

you have a strength and a virtue that I could really use some days, you know. Yeah, I had a moment recently, a period in our marriage recently where it felt like we were just both running into a wall. And it felt like it was insurmountable. And I think a lot of it had to do with our coping mechanisms and our woundedness, just coming to the surface and like interacting with each other in the most hellish way. If that makes sense.

It might not. But it's... Like you marry as immature people and the Lord wants to mature you. And I think for a while I was like, Lord, just like make it go away. Like I wanted something. This is the best kind of visual I've got for it. I wanted something from without and above to come down and make things new. But it was more like a slow bubbling from beneath that I had to be obedient to.

And I would say this last week and I'd say this without any exaggeration, that last week, my wife and I went out on a little date. We bought a bottle of gin and we got some of that spin drift and some plastic cups. We went and sat in the park and we had a little drink together. And I was like, this is the most beautiful our marriage has ever been, you know? So I'm with you because I think that's what the devil wants. He wants to say, everything is downhill from now. There is no salvation. There is no one coming. All that you have ahead of you is sickness, back pain, nose hair and death. That's it. It's all over.

Like your glory days are behind you. Maybe this is just true as our, as we get older, there's that sense. But I think that's right. Like in the name of Jesus, I renounce the lie that it's all downhill and I proclaim the truth that you have good things in store for me. And one of the difficult things that my wife and I are experiencing now is learning to live with a healed person, learning to live with someone who's healing. Because you get married and I'm just taking an example. I'm thinking on the spot, like suppose you've got a woman who doesn't deal well with conflict. And so when there's conflict in the marriage,

she like just seeks to make everything okay, without actually engaging the woundedness on the part of the partner, right? And then suppose she begins to experience healing and realizes that this is actually an immature way to respond to this conflict. And so now you've got a fella who's not sure what to do with this and vice versa. It's a beautiful, difficult thing that if I have said these words to Matt Fradd a year into marriage, a year into marriage, Matt Fradd would have nodded sagely and said he understood it. And maybe in 20 years, I realized I don't understand it now, but this beautiful, painful journey of the vocation. I've had a couple friendships and watched other friends when I've kind of been the third or the fourth in a group of guys. other friends when I've kind of been the third or the fourth in a group of guys and I've seen it happen multiple times where even male friendships you have

your role and and so you have the funny guy the smart guy we have the whatever and and if if one person starts emerging out of that role yeah three more fulfilled it can cause a lot of tension I hear the same thing about alcoholics who begin to find sobriety and the family doesn't know how to interact with them because that was always the kid that needed help and all the focus was on them. And now they begin to heal and it's like unwelcome or it's on. It's unusual.

I know one of my favorite stories. Sorry. Go ahead. Yeah, I'm going to cut you off. I was going to think of a nice way to say that, but then I didn't. Sorry. The I just want to respond before we move on to two things that Father Michael was saying. I'll go in reverse chronological order. So first, when when when you were speaking, Father Michael, about this like trend of the

the women who are trying to like immediately get back in shape in order to like and the men who are encouraging that, I think that in shape in order to like and the men who are encouraging that. I think that I think that the the core of the problem there is is a misunderstanding and a perversion of of what a woman's body is and what a woman's body is for and the like thinking that a woman's body is for the pleasure of her husband. And both of them thinking that and and the desire from the woman to like please her husband and to like for others to see her as someone who is pleasing to her husband and so on and so forth because when Cameron and I I also

was on Cameron's show yesterday and since it was Mother's Day and we are both mothers in very in very different ways but at points in very similar ways, we were talking about the woman's body and I was just saying that this is part of, Cameron was like, when my kid falls and skins their knee, they run to me, they don't run to Matt. And there's something about like the softness of

a woman's body is a comfort to her children. And I'm thinking like even as even as a celibate who's never like physically born children, I'm thinking of like the teenage girls who have wept in my arms, you know, who just like it's just different to be held by a woman than by a man. And so a woman who has just given birth, like her body is is made for the comfort of her children, especially and particularly the child who's just been born. And so for the man to be placing himself above and his desires above the needs and the desires of that baby, like that's where the distortion is.

And for the woman to be trying to make her body to fit the desires of her husband, more than the desires and needs of her own baby. Like that's where that is, you know? And like her primary vocation is like spouse to her husband. But his desires and his like like human urges should not be placed above like the needs of the baby who's just been born. That's beautiful. Could I. This really speaks to what you're saying.

Christopher West and I have been chatting recently because I've been doing a lot of thinking. He's a really good friend of ours. We love Christopher. Yeah. I would follow him to the ends of the earth. Yeah. Without asking why we're going. I just, I love him. Um, but I've been thinking a lot about lust recently and he summed up at least I don't know if you've read love and responsibility, but let me just read this to you. Okay. This, if you want like a one minute summary of the basic idea of love and responsibility, it really gets to what you're saying. When the body is considered something,

we apply the utilitarian principle. Is this useful to me? This is the essence of full and sexual desire, lust. When the body is properly recognized as someone, we apply the personalistic principle. How can I honor the person? This is the essence of sexual desire as God intended. Utilitarianism wants to safeguard the value of pleasure at all costs. This leads to egoism. While personalism wants to safeguard the value of the person at all costs, this leads to altruism.

This is the crux of the conflict between Christian and secular views of sexuality, namely, what is to be safeguarded, the value of pleasure or the value of the person. One does not need faith, but conclude from reason alone that the value of the person is superior to the value of pleasure. Hence, the person should never be treated merely as a means of pleasure, as we must transcend all tendencies of the sexual urge to treat another person in this way. Yeah. Because what happens when you don't see the body as the person, like that's the root of so many heresies, right? Of trying to separate the soul and the body and to say

these are two different things. Right. So yeah. The other thing that I wanted to mention, I just want to, I want to give just a little bit of kickback to something that Father Michael said, because I don't totally agree with it. This year, you're you're kind of like statement after explaining these maybe 10 times in 18 years or whatever that you've experienced this this loneliness. And you said, you know, probably that day was like, I didn't pray enough or it wasn't like as much virtue or something like that. I like I really don't think that that's a correct thing to say. And I think that's reinforcing a misconception that people have, because I don't want people to think that, like, if you're struggling or you're experiencing temptation, it's a result of something that you've done wrong.

Because as as Father Michael and I have both talked about many times, maybe even on pints, I'm not sure, but like, I really, really view that loneliness and that deep ache as a great gift. Because, you know, one of the questions, Cameron and I were talking about this yesterday too, one of the questions that I always get from teenagers when I'm giving a talk to teens, and I think it's the same question that, that adults have. It's just that like the adults

are too embarrassed to actually vocalize the question, right? But the teens are, they say what they're thinking. And so there's always a teen who will ask, like, aren't you lonely? And what they mean, right, obviously is like like aren't you lonely because you're not having sex And some of them mean more than that, you know Sometimes it's also like aren't you lonely because like you can't like sit and watch a movie with someone and hold their hand and My response is is always like there are absolutely moments where I experience loneliness. But if if any of you ask your parents, if your parents are still together, anyone married

for more than five minutes, right? And your parents are being honest with you, they will also tell you that they experience loneliness. And a lot of these kids are like surprised to hear that, you know? And it's like. That loneliness is such a gift because without it, we can start to think that that the challenge of celibacy or or the sex we're getting from our spouse, like those are the things that that fulfill us and we need to be reminded. Like, no, there there there is always I need to always be aching for something more or I will forget that like I'm not made for this earth.

I will forget that I'm I'm made for eternity and that this isn't my home. And and I think if we can like remember to see that loneliness as a gift, because it's it's like it's it's hard to do that sometimes, right? Like when we're experiencing hardship and when we're experiencing struggle, we immediately think that it's it's a bad thing. But but often those things are given as as gifts from the Lord to to grow in faith. And so it's not just like a result of something that we've done wrong. Let me ask you what you do with that ache, mother.

So when you feel that loneliness or that ache, I mean, break that open for us, maybe with new language that isn't just turn to the Lord. Like, how do you what do you do? Um. I don't know. I mean, I do try to turn to the Lord, but to like open it in prayer of, um, I guess what I'm saying isn't to say that. What do you want to do with this? OK, yeah, like, how does it look like when you turn to the Lord?

Yeah. And I think that the really fruitful thing, this isn't always what I do, but I think the fruitful thing is to ask the Lord what he wants to do with that ache. What's so frightening, though, is sometimes the ache feels like it's a hand around your throat crushing you and you're like, how can this possibly be good? Yeah, but it's like the Lord wants to meet us in that ache Um, and sometimes the answer though when we say what do you want to do with this ache is like sometimes the answer is nothing Right now. Sometimes the answer is I just want you to ache and

I want you to remember that you're not fulfilled I want you to to remember that this isn't your home. Like it's not, it's not always as simple as, you know, I think we have, because we have a father who is good and who, who wants to give us good things. I think that we can, but like we have sometimes a different definition of what good is. Right. And so like we can hear that and we can think, well, then that means that whatever this ache is, like God wants to fill it right

now. But that's, that's just not always the case. And I think what the dentist wants to do to you is good. Right. And that made me excited. And I think that the reason this is an important misconception to, to correct is because Father Michael and I have had this conversation many times. Like it's a it's a it's really a disservice that celibates can can give to those who are discerning when celibates say like all of the desires that that you have for marriage will be filled in different ways

in a celibate vocation. Like that's just not true. And I say that like while also saying like, I find my vocation to be to be so rewarding and so fulfilling. And like anyone who knows me knows I have so much joy. Right. And I'm not just like walking around bitter because I'm not married. But. But like. The the aches that are filled in marriage are not always filled in celibacy, not in this life. I absolutely believe that in eternity,

all of the aches of both the married people and the celibates will be will be fulfilled. But that's not the case now. And and we need to trust that like, we need to trust that, God was, the father was still giving good gifts to Mary when Mary encountered Jesus on the way to the, to the crucifixion. We need to trust that somehow the Father was giving good gifts even then. And that didn't mean that the crucifixion wasn't going to happen.

That's lovely. Could you speak to that? Because you do hear folks say this, and it's not that it's not objectively true, you know? It's like you might hear someone say, well, they're forgoing a earthly union for something better. Like it's so much better. And okay, like I'm sure that's true. But like, what's it like when you're four years into priesthood and you just want to have sex and you've met a woman and she shows some liking to you and you know, you could probably go there with her and maybe she'll keep it quiet. I'm trying to be really honest here.

Like what's it like for a priest then and speak to what mother said there about like sometimes that's just an unhelpful way of talking to young men or seminarians or women who are going into the monastery. Yes, because those 10 times were that they were not the deep ache of connection and lifelong commitment and raising children. They were holding hands and watching a movie. It was the very surface things. And so what I've done in those moments is I've broken it down to the much deeper theology

and I go, I'm just being crazy right now. I'm not being rational, I'm not being myself right now when I'm desiring something so deeply that is so surface. And I have to remind myself that every man married after a year, I've told myself before, what you're tempted to into abandoning your vocation, you're tempted to dating, not marriage. You wanna date, you wanna pursue a girl,

you want a girl to show you affection and attention, you want a girl to say, I like you more than all these other guys, even though I could have any of them. Like, that's what I want. I don't want the deeper things in those moments of the devil whispering something in my ear. So I'll break it down. And I'll go back to John Paul, you know, love is self gift. And I say, what I'm what the holding hands of watching a movie that that is an outward sign of a much deeper reality of self-gift whereas I'm not tempted in this moment for the self-gift I'm tempted for the outward sign and I have to remind myself like when I was in the seminary I went to one of my favorite professors and I said I said I'm in love with the girl I'm head every hills for her I don't know what to do about this. And he goes, who is it? Because he knew all these, my friends I would bring to the campus,

they go, oh, it's none of them. It's this priest at Starbucks. And he's like, what? And he says, what's her name? I was like, I don't know. She looks at me and she smiles when she gives me my coffee. He's like, you're crazy. You're out of your mind.

You have all these good women that you bring to the seminary and none of them, like just stop, just stop it, right? I stop lusting or being infatuated with this girl, you know nothing about. And I think it's those moments when I have to remind myself, I'm just, I need to get out of this way of thinking. And when it is those deeper things,

the real deeper existential things, that's what I do lean into. I know that this vocation is fulfilling and I know it is. So I will go deep and even the most fulfilling part is, we've had this conversation many times, is just our Lord is saying, I'm not gonna fulfill you in this way. You're gonna sacrifice it.

This is gonna be a cross for you for the rest of your life. And don't think that I lived any differently than you. I carried my cross. I want you to carry that cross with me. So I have to almost go from the feeling, which is debilitating, to the analyzing. I analyze it in a deep, full, thoughtful way, and I go, I'm just not feeling the right things right now.

The way I feel right now is wrong. And so that doesn't mean I'm gonna stop feeling that way. I'm gonna feel that way, but I have to counter, I have to let my head, where our Lord is guiding me, I have to let it lead the other things. And that may mean a day or two of suffering, thank God only a day or two, that's all I can handle, but a day or two of suffering

in order to get to that deeper reality. But also, we have to actively love. I've had multiple experiences where if I'm feeling really, really lonely, I just realize I've been in my own head for too long. I have not been loving. I have not been loving in a very tangible way. So I will go out and I'll do something sacrificial,

something stupid like spending money on somebody or spending an hour in prayer for one specific person. And I'll say, I just have not been loving. I've been loving myself. I have not been loving others. So, almost 100% of the time, if I really put forth the sacramental actions of love for people, what that means, whether it's prayer for somebody,

or I go clean the church bathrooms, or I do something like that, that's physical, tangible, and act of love, I do not need to do this. It's coming from our Lord asking me to be purely generous. I almost always then the feelings follow the mind that I go, OK, I feel fulfilled in my vocation again, because I know that that's I'm now feeling what's accurate rather than what's, you know, just a moment of weakness in that way. Because I do think it's worth mentioning to that, even though the in celibacy, we're not filling all of those same desires just in different ways.

At the same time, there are plenty of of gifts and moments of fulfillment in celibacy that I know I wouldn't have in marriage. You know, like I have as a monastic, like if I want to, I can do an all night vigil and just offer a different hour for like all of my different spiritual children, you know, and like that's just not an opportunity you get as a married person because you're up with the two year old who's suddenly vomiting in the middle of the night. And so it's like, yeah, absolutely. That's what I mean is like, and so, it's just like, there are also different opportunities for fulfillment and for sacrifice that, that, that God offers to us. Like, like Cameron is, is sacrificing being up with the two year old who's vomiting while I'm sacrificing by giving up my sleep to offer a holy

hour for one of my spiritual children who's like struggling in her marriage or something like that, you know, so. And I'm sure what what gets Cameron through that night or you through that night is that she loves that child. And one thing I found is if I do have a moment where I, I as a celibate priest am falling for a girl and I can't get her out of my mind, I say the best thing I can do for her is to be holy. The best thing I can do for her. And I know that when I live out the virtue in that moment,

whatever I do, it's actually benefiting her as a member of the body of Christ or someone that's beloved by God. So I have to personalize it sometimes. And I actually get to the point where I go, you know, if I abandon my vocation right now, I would be happy in a small way and be deeply troubled in another way.

And I, in my confidence, I say, and she may be happy too, this may be something she wants, but it would also be in a very surface way. And she may never know the sacrifices I make for her out of a true desire for love, but I actually put her in my mind as long as my mind doesn't go to bad places. But I put her in my mind in a good way and say,

let me sacrifice even for her, this girl that I have some sort of attraction to. What I'm doing is actually helping her and that also brings me a lot of peace because that's the true definition of love. I'm giving myself to her in a way that is appropriate so she will never know. I will never tell her I'm doing this.

I will never, never explain it to her. God knows, my spiritual director knows, now the world knows, I guess. But like, I will, I'll say those things and it's actually an act of love for her to not do what I want. And it's helpful to think through these things ahead of time and have like plans ahead of time of like what I'm going to do when this ache happens,

what I'm going to do when this, because you know, one of my favorite books is Jane Eyre and which I would encourage every woman to read and every man who's comfortable enough in his masculinity to read, because it really is is very, very beautiful. And and there's one passage in particular that's that's my favorite passage of the book that just talks about like basically like I won't give the spoiler,

but the the woman who's speaking in this passage, like you would absolutely understand if she chose the wrong thing, because like you've you've so fallen in love with this character throughout the book that you would understand it. And you would even be like, you know, some part of you even wants her to like go through with this this terrible decision. Right. And then she she has this whole soliloquy about how like our our our morals and and our our foregone determinations are are made for moments such as this.

They're made for the moments when our blood is coursing through our veins and that we like everything inside of us wants to act in some way. Like, this is why we have those decisions ahead of time. And that's where we need to plant our foot. This is why we make vows. Right. Absolutely. So that if I choose not to fulfill them, I have a community that it really tells me you made this vow. It's not just me in this. You know, this struck me several years ago when I was at, I think it was maybe my first Roman Catholic

wedding as an adult. And so I heard the vows of about being faithful. And it was after I entered the monastery about being faithful, promising to be faithful, to serve and to love. I don't know if it's in that order, but it just struck me because I was like, when a man is promising to be faithful to his wife at those vows, he's promising to do that even when he doesn't feel like it, especially maybe. Yeah. And when, when, and when he's promising to do that even when he doesn't feel like it especially maybe yeah and when when and When he's promising to her and vice versa of course like when they're promising to serve one another they're promising to do that Even when they don't feel like it

So if we're going to include love in those vows That means that like you can't possibly promise to feel a certain way 20 years from now Which implies that love is not just a feeling, right? Like we have to choose it. And so, um, so you're promising to love one another, even when you don't feel like it, which is something that is just so lost, um, in so many, so many circles today. Uh, but anyways, one of the, like, that's why that retreat,

the April before my life profession was so important because Father Michael and I had to like, I needed us to process all of those things ahead of time. Before I could give the most free yes. And then I gave that yes with such zeal and such commitment. And I, one of the, one of the most helpful pieces of advice I ever had in discernment before I entered the monastery, maybe even before I was discerning monasticism,

I don't remember, but, but father Michael said to me, this is probably 10 years ago. You need to know that if you become a nun or if you get married, you're going to fall in love and to just know that ahead of time so that you're not like, Oh, I see somebody's not in love with the spouse. Sorry, you're going to fall in love with somebody else so that you're not caught off guard of like, I'm married, but, but I've fallen in love with someone else. Like, what does that mean? Does it mean I made the wrong choice? Does it mean that I'm supposed to be with this other person? Does it mean, and like, if we just know ahead of time, then we can, we can make the choice, like, we have to,

we have to be prudent and to not do the things to feed into that, right? Like if you're married and you've fallen in love with someone else, maybe don't intentionally spend time with that person. And the same goes for being a nun or for being a priest or for being a monk. But the, but it's also like, you know, as Father Michael is talking about how we have these, like these feelings and these momentary aches that

come through, like knowing that that this will pass, knowing that like whatever I'm feeling right now is not what I'm going to feel for the rest of my life. But what's so difficult and maybe what be what might be kind of definitional to spiritual aridity is that you don't know that in the moment. That's been my experience. Like it's very easy to talk about, well, when I'm in spirit, I just go with my head and I tell myself, but the times I've experienced real spiritual barrenness, I can't see the light. It only feels like I'm dying and there is no escape. So what do you do?

Well, so this happened to me recently. I was flying back from Ukraine. I flew from Krakow to London. That day was one of the hardest days of my life. I just felt like everything was going to end poorly and that everything was dying. And if it sounds dramatic, it's not nearly as dramatic as it felt. It just felt like everything was going to be ruined and that there was no silver lining. What did I do? I mean, I chose to pray three rosaries throughout that day in great pain, in great suffering. But what was interesting is by like 11 o'clock that night, I felt terrific. And, and I, there was, it, so it was like a cloud, you know, that wouldn't allow me, or like a blindness

that wouldn't allow me to see through it. So I don't know what I did except to say, Jesus have mercy on me. Even though as I say those words, they are dry as dry toast and there's no consolation in them. And I don't even know if there is a Jesus on the other line who's hearing me. Like, that's how blind I am.

And I just say, Jesus have mercy. And it sounds really holy as you say it and as you recount it, but in the moment it just feels like blackness and hope. And this is probably due to my melancholic temperament. But I think that's part of the answer is like, by 11 o'clock that night, it had passed. Yeah. And I was surprised. And so I think part of the answer, right, but part of the answer is like by 11 o'clock that night it had passed. Yeah. And I was surprised. The answer. Right.

But part of the answer is like the next time that happens, you remember that day. I try to say, yeah, I try. And you remember that, like in that moment, I felt like it was never going to pass. And it was like 12 hours or whatever. You know, I am a big fan of, I know, our evangelical friends and our charismatic Catholic friends engaged in this language, but I find it very helpful. And that's to realize that we are, we can and make agreements with the devil, with the world, with our own fullness. Right. So it's not just a temptation.

It's just like we make an agreement with it. So what was the agreement I was tempted to make or had made during that moment? It was something like, nothing will get better. Everything is only getting worse. Myself, my marriage, everything. My poor wife, she's so choleric and positive that she's like, I have never experienced this ever. But that was the agreement, right? So it was what I had to do is like in the name of Jesus of Nazareth, I renounce the lie that things are only getting worse. And then I announced so I have to both renounce and then announce and then I announce in the name of Jesus Christ, my Lord, that all will be well, and all manner of things will be well and that you have good plans for me and that you are a loving father and I can trust you even in this.

But I think sometimes we don't even know, we're just kind of walking through this mist, this darkness, we don't even realize, oh, there's an agreement here. Because the majority of the Psalms, I think there's only one that doesn't end well, whenever they begin with tremendous desolation, there's always, but I will hope in you. I will trust in you still. And I think that's part of the answer. Though, if you had said that to me while I was going through this turmoil, I would have done it. And I would have agreed. Yeah, I would have agreed. But it wouldn't have made it feel better in the moment.

It just had to be this announced, renounce, renounce, announce, you know. I think the Psalms are also like one of the most helpful tools, I think, as we're confronting like the different things that we're feeling. I find that the Psalms often can articulate for me what I didn't even know that I was feeling. You know, it's like I'm as I'm praying with the Psalms, I'm like that. That is exactly what I'm experiencing right now. And I didn't even have the words for it. And so it's like, I don't have the strength or the eloquence or the whatever to offer this prayer to the Lord. But David or whoever the psalmist is, like, they do. He already did it for me.

And like, I can use those words as my own because the Psalms are like, so descriptive of just humanity. Christ did that on the cross. I mean, he prayed Psalm 22 like, I, you know, my wife abandoned to be like that. That's Psalm 22. So there's something about this is why we teach children to memorize prayers, because I think in those moments we're not going to be eloquent. We're not going to think up some deep theological thing. We're going to pray to our father, which we've had memorized for our entire life. We're going to pray a Psalm.

I want to father Joel Barstadt who you know, he would always teach his students to memorize Psalms. He's like, memorize Psalms, have at least one, if not 10, of these arrows in your quiver so that you can pull them out when you're not eloquent, when your brain is not going to the right places and you can persevere through prayer when the prayer means nothing, but you're saying the words.

And that's why God gave us the gift of time because sometimes I'm gonna be good, sometimes I'm not, but if I can persevere by saying words somebody else wrote like the Jesus prayer, like the Our Father, like one of the Psalms, especially one that begins rough and ends happy, that that's actually a really nice thing to do and yet I love the fact, I think it's what,

Psalm 88 is the one that ends, my only companion is darkness, you know. You know the- that I think it's what Psalm 88 is the one that ends, my only companion is darkness. You know. You know. We would call it 87. Well, yeah, that's right. Set to 87. And the, and so when we, when we pray these,

like have both those in your quiver, because I think there are people that are, that are watching this, listening to this, that are gonna say, I've been in this for 10 years or for 38 years, like the man by the poolside, right? I've been paralyzed for 38 years. Like how can you, it's not helpful to say persevere through memorized prayer.

And I think that's where Psalm 88 or 87 is so beautiful because you say, yeah, one of the Psalms ends, memorize that Psalm and actually understand that what I believe, and just listen to me say this, you are stronger because you've persevered for 10 years. Like, God has given you a strength. I say this about homosexuality,

like, I can't imagine feeling that I cannot participate in the physical and mental and act of love of somebody, I chose celibacy, I said yes to it. You did not. So I truly believe that God created you and empowers you with a certain strength to endure through this for longer than most people can. And I know that may not be helpful to hear.

Most people when I say in their struggles, thank you for being strong. They just like growl at me. You know, I'm not I'm not strong right now, father. Right. And that's like I know really growled from the from the outside. I'm saying you are strong and I see it. You may not feel it right now, but you are strong

because you can persevere. Can you tell the story of your dad when you're talking about the our father? Yeah, that's a really beautiful. So my dad, he he has Agent Orange from Vietnam and it's affecting his lungs. So called Agent Orange. So he was affected by this, this chemical that they would drop to kill all foliage, to kill all greenery near the bases in Vietnam and the Philippines. So they could see the enemy coming.

But they told them that it was not gonna affect their health. And now it's killing my dad. So pretty much, my dad, he has congestive heart failure because the Agent Orange affected his lungs, and so when his brain says breathe, his lungs aren't healthy enough to breathe, so he's breathing at a different time his brain says to breathe, and that's affecting his heart

because of the stress of his body not agreeing, so he has congestive heart failure so when he had his first heart attack he was in the front yard doing something had a heart attack fell to the ground went inside and and had my mom call 911 and he was laying on his bed and and so when he had the surgery when it came out of the surgery he said to me he said father like I was so in eloquent, like I thought I was dying. And I always thought my whole life, like, as I'm dying,

I'm gonna call upon our Lord, and I'm gonna have these eloquent thoughts and just have like, what are my last will and testament I say to the world? What's the last words my wife hears as I'm dying on the bed? He says, all I could say was the our Father over and over and over again.

And it was like, and it wasn't, I said, Dad, that's what Jesus did. He said the Psalm was he was not, he said, memorized prayer on the cross. You said, memorized prayer as you thought you were dying. Like, I want that. Right. I want that. I want to as I'm dying, I have the our father on my lips. What am my wife to be in the room?

You know, not not me, of course but like, that's a good death. And I said, you were doing the right thing, so do not feel any shame. The devil's gonna put your mind about you not being able to be eloquent. It was beautifully eloquent. See, that's an exact allegory, right? To the person who feels in complete desolation

and yet they're praying and they don't feel spiritual, they don't feel holy, but they're. Yeah, and the devil's gonna be telling you you're not. But you are, your perseverance, I think it was C.S. Lewis who said, who compared, you know, you have the top of the wave and the bottom of the wave in your spiritual life. And so you have the moments when you're at the peak

and you say, oh my gosh, I'm becoming so holy, I'm on this retreat, I feel like praying. And he says, that's not when you're becoming holy, you're becoming holy at the bottom of the wave when you don't feel that you're growing holy and you're persevering in prayer, no matter what, and you're getting through these rough patches. And this is a microcosm of an entire life of marriage

or an entire life of celvacy, where it's actually in those struggles that you've seen that lead to then the healing and the temptation to not know what to do when somebody's healing. But you're saying we grew so much when the healing was needed that when the healing is happening and things are getting better, we quite don't know what to do with it, because we're almost saying,

look how much I grew in that moment, and look how much we grew in that moment. So I do think that it seems odd, and it's hard to convince non-Christians to say, just say the words, you know, just say the words. But sometimes we just need to say the words, as long as we also are having our entire intellect and will engaging with those words at other times. Here's a psalm I think we could learn a great deal from Psalm 42 5 or

Whatever what why my soul are you downcast? Why so disturbed within me put your hope in God for I will yet praise him my Savior my God this Encapsulates exactly what we've been saying but I often think for myself I am not at one with myself so I'll wake up in the morning and I might have an awkward interaction with it with one of my children or I might see a negative thing somebody has said about me and and these are like little piercings that I'm not at one with myself to recognize as they're happening so I just wake up and things somebody has said about me. And and these are like little piercings that I'm not at one with myself to recognize as

they're happening. So I just wake up and I kind of feel awkward and agitated. And I think a lot of us, we just burst into the day. Grab that coffee, grab that muffin, have that conversation. And we are just not we are not at

one with ourselves. And entertainment is very often just I think it was C.S. Lewis who said entertainment is the devil's substitute for joy. It's this distraction. It distracts us from us being able to see that our soul is downcast. So we don't even ask it. But how important that is to go, why?

What's going on? Like, why are you downcast? And it's like, oh, well, there was that conversation I had. Okay, what did that say about you? What did you believe about yourself in that in that moment? Gee, it's hard work. That's why we don't like it. That's why the office is easier. Well, whatever show you watch, you know, like it's.

I definitely thought you meant like Liturgy of the Hours when you said the office. You are so holy. That's really funny. Yeah, say Sarah from Sarah from Sarov said like, what is acquire inner peace and you'll save a thousand souls. And I imagine that when we wake up in the morning before we see our wife and our kids

find that orient ourselves, face East, kiss the icon of Christ, find that a bit of an inner peace so that when we interact with our children or our wife who may not be having inner peace right now either, that they were able to be that inner peace and that can literally, I still meditate upon that from him.

Souls can be saved by just having inner peace. But like you said, it's hard fought sometimes. It's not just, oh, I'm peaceful now. That hard fought inner peace, Mother Ileana is writing a book and I said like when I read it, an excrete and when I read it an Excruciatingly hard-fought child likeness like she's so childlike but it's not the innocence of a child like this from a child It's a hard fought that you you you have child likeness because you've struggled so much and now you have that beautiful Christ, you know vocation to child likeness

Christ, you know, vocationed child like this. Mm hmm. Just sit in that. Um, I don't say so. I mean. What was oh, I had I wrote down one story. I'm going to say that. No, I don't. I just want to sit in this. I just want to say thank you, Lord.

We give you thanks and praise. We worship you. You are better than we think we are. We are. You are better than we think you are. And you have said something about me. And that's truer than my thoughts about me. And I submit to what you say. You know.

Yeah. All right. Now you can tell your story. OK, if you say. You know. Yeah, aren't they can tell you a story? Okay, if you want. Sure. I had this this beautiful story about going from being the one who's who's helping and identifying as being a helper to to realizing that the one being helped and I've told the story before because it was so beautiful. To to realizing that the one being helped and I've told the story before because it was so beautiful But when I was in seminary, I didn't have a car my first some of my first year That's why I said I I asked the I hate gonna borrow your car and he said only if you shave your nose hair But like I was in seminary Like as you're a priest

All years and years ago. Yeah, and okay.. Yeah. And I asked to borrow. I asked to borrow the car. And is this the fellow who said once you shave your nose? That's what I mean. Yeah. He was a seminarian at the time. Tell that story. I did. But that's not the story. I didn't have a car. Sorry. That was because I know we were chatting before the recording.

So maybe he's just telling the story. I know. I know. So I would. So I would go home for the semester and I worked at a restaurant and I made, thank God, amazing tips. And as a server, so I would come home and I'd have some money to spend on things, including a cell phone.

So I didn't have a car, I didn't have a cell phone. I finally got a cell phone and I went back home and I wasn't able to work. I got sick, wasn't able to work, wasn't able to bring in the money. So I came back and I couldn't afford a cell phone. And so I had had some beautiful interactions with homeless people that had my number. And if they were having a really, really rough day, they could call me on my cell phone. And so they knew this, they had my number memorized, and it was just a beautiful priestly

moment before I was a priest to be able to say, hey, I can counsel somebody. And so I came back. It was a moment of spiritual fatherhood before you were ordained as a father. Exactly. And it was an encouragement and a vocation, very, very beautiful. And so I came back. It was a little spiritual fatherhood before you were ordained as a father. Yeah, exactly. And it was an encouragement and a vocation, very, very beautiful. And so I came back and I said, I went downtown for my first Thursday night street feed. And I said, you know, sorry guys,

I don't have a cell phone this semester. I said, there's a wall phone, call that. If I'm nearby or somebody will tell me, I'll have a cell phone. And they go, okay. And the next week I show up and there's about six or seven homeless people come up with a big grin on their face and they have me three hundred dollars in ones Yeah, they're like get a cell phone like here's your cell phone bill for the semester

And so I took spanged begged three hundred dollars from homeless people and I got a cell phone And so every time I ever about my cell phone. Yeah people and I got a cell phone. And so every time I got a cell phone, yeah. Screw those guys. Sorry. Had to do it. So sorry. Bring it out of the bias. And so every time I looked at my cell phone I had to say, this is, I am a charity case. Praise the Lord. And I cannot, every time I go down and serve them, we are now, even in, we were always equals, but in my mind I have to say thank you guys again. It's so nice having this.

You know, and they all just, they all banded together. Let's get this money. I don't think they even knew how much it was. It was just a big stack of singles. Yeah, it was beautiful. And I thought what a way of the great equalizer in this way. And I've had that happen.

And now it's just a way to answer their calls. Right, I know. And that's the beauty of them too. That's exactly the way we think, but that's not what they expect. And the same thing happened, a woman I let sleep, my bishop did, my advisory board, when Sher and her son were having a rough time

and we gave them a safe place to sleep in our parking lot in LA. And she went to school. What do you mean a safe place in your parking lot? In the parking lot, so we have gates. So they were living in their car. Sorry, they were living in their car. So they had the car towed because it broke down. They had it safe place in your parking lot? In the parking lot, so we have gates. So they were living in their car. Sorry, they were living in their car. So they had the car towed because it broke down.

They had it towed to our parking lot. So they could actually, we could shut the gates, they could be around. So it was great. Now this woman put the work in. She wanted to study mortgage lending. She studied it, she would use our wifi, she had a laptop, the laptop got stolen out of her car

one time, a whole mess. And then all of a sudden one day she was up like maybe four months after getting her mortgage thing She just had her first big win like had a bunch of money came in and she handed me a thousand dollars and She gave she gave five hundred dollars to our cafe project She gave a hundred dollars to another guy on the campus gave me that would not let me give it back in ones She gave me ten, I would not let me give it back in ones. Like she gave me 10, $100 bills. 100s, okay. Yeah, 100s.

Like in one. Sorry, in $100 bills, sorry, $100 bills. And so it was very much a, okay, unexpected, I'm gonna pass, so I walked into my cigar bar, I walked into the restaurants, I go to my coffee shop, and I said, just give this $100 to the employee that has asked for more hours,

or someone who's struggling. And I was like, it was amazing. This came from a woman who was homeless. You see how I mean, we talked about this a moment ago about how like cynicism, you know, cynicism about marriage, about priesthood, about because of our own kind of experience, you know, how many, you know, how many of us it's like this. There's few things that our Lord is as explicit about as someone begs give.

And yet, yeah, the other day I was at a coffee shop and this guy asked me for a coffee and I didn't. I just I just ignored him. Shame on me. I was in Ukraine. I didn't understand him. That was part of it, but I could figure it out. But it was it was like this. I feel awkward around you. I don't know what you want from me. And so rather than like giving myself to him, whether I'd be scammed or not, I chose to shut myself off. Have mercy on me, a sinner. Yeah. You know, this is a, this is a great gift of father, father Michael and I have a nonprofit that we run together called Fultina. It's named after the woman at the well. And it's been such a gift to me because a portion of the money goes to what we call our Matthew 25 ministry for those who are hungry, thirsty, naked, ill,

imprisoned, all of those things. And I was, I was out with a priest friend the other day. He and I went and got lunch and then went for a walk at the park and stuff. And it was, it was really wonderful. But we ran into a guy on the street who asked if I had if I had 10 bucks that he he like had a menu with him, like a takeout menu. And he was like, he was like, I want this dish. It's ten dollars. And I was like, well, can I just can I just buy you lunch? And so and this is not something I could do without this ministry.

Right. Like I'm a nun. I have none of my I don't have my own money. I but because we have this gift, I so so the priest and I went into this restaurant with this guy and it's it's like a sit down restaurant and he orders. I mean, the waitress was like very uncomfortable with all of this. But but I think it was probably good for her too. And, and we ordered him food, we talked with him for a little bit and, and just found out like a little bit of his story and, and so on and so forth. But it's like that personal encounter is just such a gift that we can, we can discard when we honestly, like in some sense, it goes back to the to the quote from from Christopher, because it's like we can like we're separating

out the person from the body and we're refusing to see the person from the nuisance. Exactly. And yeah, I don't know. It's like, like, I think I received so much more in that moment than this man did, you know, in his, like, the meal that he got. But to give someone the opportunity to encounter Christ, because that's what Jesus says in Matthew 25. Like, when you do this for the least of my brethren, you're doing it for me. So in being given the opportunity to do something like that, We're being given the opportunity, not just to serve, we're being given the opportunity to see Christ. And like, which means that again, God uses all for good.

And that wasn't a totally lost opportunity for you because like, you can now see Christ. You can see the Christ that you in that moment denied, but you're still being given. Okay, Cameron. We joke that both my wife and father Michael, well, I don't want to speak for you, but my wife will say something. I'm like, what did you do? You said in fairness to me, you're supposed to offer that for other people, not yourself. Whereas I'm the opposite, you know? Um, but like we were in Istanbul and people come up to you and you think they just want to have a conversation.

And then you realize they're trying to sell you something. And I had to keep saying to Father Jason, don't talk to him. Just keep walking. Like stop it because he's so kind and good and I'm cynical and hard. But in a sense, you kind of have to be. They have everybody coming out there pretending like, hey, hey, hey, where are you from? Oh, hi. And then you are there.

This is whole thing. But you encounter that enough and then it just hardens you perhaps to the actual possibilities that you could be on look out for. Yeah. Yeah. Do you need a break or are we? I really do. Can we can we do a break? Yeah, we can go to the stream. Starting. Yep. Go to the stream starting. Thank you.

Let us know when we're... Hold on. Hold on. Any sinner is capable of being the great saint. So if you haven't yet got the app, Hello, what are you doing? If you have a smartphone, go and download Hello. But first go to hello.com slash Matt Fred. Hello is the number one Catholic prayer and meditation app on the web. And it's fantastic. And it actually beat tick tock recently as far as in the episode.

Did you know that? It's crazy. It's legit. Hello.com slash Matt Fradd. Go over there, sign up. You'll get three months for free. If at the end of the three months, you don't want it anymore, you can quit and you don't have to pay a cent. They have sleep stories. They'll help you pray the rosary. It's really fantastic. Also, if you've got kids, it's nice to play little sleep stories for them. Hello, H-A-L-L-O-W dot com slash Matt Fred.

Click the link in the description below. I want to say thank you to a new sponsor, EverythingCatholic dot com. Maybe you like Amazon, but you're tired of giving them money. What if you could give your money to a Catholic company that sold everything Catholic and in so doing, not only support that Catholic company, but support Catholic artisans and craftsmen as well. I've got a bunch of stuff that they just sent me. We have a chrysm-scented bee wax candle,

which Thursday I think smells delightful. We even have chrysm lotion cream, they have rosary bracelets, they have kids books, they have, what is this? This is like a merry doll for your children? Rosaries, kids books, all sorts of stuff. Go to everythingcatholic.com right now and when you use the promo code PINCE you'll get 15% off.

So go support an excellent Catholic company as well as, as I say, excellent Catholic small businessmen and craftsmen. Let us know when you... We'll be back. And we're back! This is lovely. There's so many beautiful comments here. I was reading, um...

Betha Gubaria says, Mother Natalia and Mother Gabriella changed my life the last time they came on Pints with Aquinas. That conversation blew me away. The self-awareness and humility. This person says the stream is definitely what I needed a Lot more but yeah, we have questions from our local supporters massive. Thanks everybody who is a supporter Okay, this person I'm gonna ask this anonymously because this person asked Stumbling upon mother Natalia on your show last year helped lead this wife on the journey to the church. What advice can you give to a wife who committed adultery, had an abortion, and

engaged in years of pornography production whose husband had a deep conversion to the Catholic faith? That conversion, along with other things, has led her to want to repent of her sins and join the church, but how does she heal? How does she confront the pain and anger that comes with hearing many Catholic programs like this one that reinforce that she committed so many terrible sins and continue along the path to the church? It's easy to just fall back into her lucrative career or become angry or resentful of faithful folk for making her feel like she is bad and unworthy. Just because the truth is so painful and shameful to confront, how does she give herself over to the Catholic Church and Jesus completely?

Oh, bless you. Without just falling back into her sins, feeling like she can't change her life for God or seeking to find problems with the church that will reinforce her demons. Thank you. Oh, maybe one of the most beautiful questions I've ever been asked. Yeah. find problems with the church that will reinforce her demons. Thank you. Maybe one of the most beautiful questions I've ever been asked. Thank you. Yeah. My immediate response is just praise God. Like praise God for the openness and for the desire,

the desire to live more in union with who you truly are. You know, this is, I gave a talk a week or two ago about identity, about the importance of knowing our identity first as son or daughter of the father, and then as spouse, and then as spouse and then as mother father. And. I think. What you need to know here is that. Like the fathers are so explicit that.

We were made good. And that as humans, we are good. Some of some of the fathers say, I think it's it might be Gregory of Nyssa. I can't remember. But like some of the fathers talk about how we. We are made to be in union with God. All of the fathers talk about that, but that like they, they say a couple of them, even that there is no such thing as, as man without God, we are either God, man, or we are not man at all.

And by, by man, I mean human, right? Because it's, this is a problem, I think in the language that I promise I'm getting to the question, just hear me out, but there's a problem in the language that we use today that I notice myself even and that I've tried to correct in. When we when we sin, we can sometimes excuse it by saying I was just being human. Like I'll go to confession, I'll do better. But I was just being human. And there is a great falsity in that because God, when he when he became man,

Jesus was perfect man. And so to say that to sin is being human is not true, because if Jesus was the perfect man and he was and he was sinless, as we know and as we believe, then to sin is not, is not to be man. To sin is to be subhuman. And this is what the fathers are unanimous about, is that when we sin, we are not acting in accord with with our human nature, our true nature, our true call to deification, to becoming God.

Theosis is this concept of becoming God, becoming ever more in union with God. And when we are being subhuman, we're missing that. And so I think that the beautiful thing to remember here is that when we are sinning, we are not being our true selves. Which means that you're now being called to be more truly yourself. I don't know any other way to say that you're being called to union with God and to be more truly yourself. And the beauty, the beauty there is that when we sin, that's not what,

what defines us. And in fact, our good actions aren't what define us either. Like, it's our very being, it's our very essence. I don't actually know the philosophical meaning of those words. So I'm speaking in secular language here, but like our being is what is good. And I think that the reason, I think that the reason sometimes we want to be defined by our sin is because the implication there is that our actions can define us.

And so we think if I can just do good enough, if I can just do enough good deeds, then I'm lovable. And then I have a good identity. But it's neither our sin nor our good actions that define us. It's the fact that we've been loved into existence, that we've been loved into being. It's the fact that we've been loved into existence, that we've been loved into being. That's what defines us. And so to remember that. Yeah, I don't know. It's just it's just so much about identity. When I gave this talk on identity, I I actually said, like, part of the reason this is so important for us to know that

it's not our actions that define us and like when we love, when we are trying to be in union with God, when we're living more truly and more fully as ourselves, the good actions follow. I don't mean that like what we do doesn't matter, right? But it's like, it's the identity that needs to lead to the actions. It's not the other way around. It's not the actions that define our identity. And the reason it's important for us to do that in ourselves is because if we can't see ourselves as sons and daughters of the father, then how are we going to see that in other people? And I really challenged the people that I was giving this talk to.

And I'm like prime example of this for years and years and years, only in the past couple of years, really, like, especially in the past few months, have I actually accepted that I am good, that I am beautiful. And it's it's helped me to be more able to see the goodness and the beauty in others in who they are and not just in what they've done. And I challenged these people when I gave this talk, like, can you see Christ in the addict? Can you see Christ in the pedophile?

Can you see Christ in the one who is committing adultery? Right? Because Christ is in this woman. And I think that she is going to be more deeply aware of that when she accepts it than most people ever are. The one who is forgiven much is the one who loves much. And yeah, so I think that there's like so much beauty and so much gift that can come from this.

So I just want to commend all of that. But to know, I was reflecting last year on... Do you happen to know off the top of your head, Matt? I'm really sorry to put you on the spot like this, but what is... What happens right before Jesus starts his public ministry? He goes into the desert. And what happens right before he goes into the desert?

He's baptized. And at the baptism. You are my beloved son. You are my beloved son. Before Jesus starts his public ministry, what he hears from the father is you are my beloved son. Before a miracle has been performed, huh? Before, yeah, before any of that. Like the first thing that he hears is you are my beloved son. And we know that this is important and we know that it's what each of us needs to hear. Because then when he goes into the desert, what's the first thing the devil says to him? I forget.

If you are the son of God, do this. If you are the son of God, do this. It's like the devil is immediately testing that identity. He's immediately saying like. Yeah, and and and obviously Jesus knew, right? Jesus received that from the father. Jesus knows I am the son of God. Like, that's not going to be but but we call it the temptation in the desert. Right. And and I think this is the greatest temptation that all of us experience is to question our identity.

And so we have to lean fully into that. And until we can accept our identity, the rest of the things don't matter. Until we realize I really am a daughter of God and I really am loved, then I'm going to constantly question what my actions mean. I'm going to constantly question whether or not doing this thing or that thing makes me loved or unloved. Yeah. So I think that's like, we really, really have to focus on the identity. I would say really briefly, that was beautiful. Thank you. To this woman,

the same God who forgave Moses, the murderer, Rehab, the prostitute, David, the adulterer,, Peter the denier, Paul the Christian persecutor, will forgive us as well. And then think what he wants to do with you, with your story of pain, how you can then reach into the hearts of others and say, I've been in the sewer as well, and neither of us are doomed to remain there. Do you have memorized the prayer of absolution, the Nathan the prophet through Nathan the prophet and No, like that one. No.

Okay, I'm gonna see if I can find it. The one thing I want to say to little one is that when we there's such a cacophony of voices in today in the world that that that speak to these things and we're speaking from, you know, the full 3,500 feet. And it's so important to find if you want to come into the church, like find people that you can actually interact with and ask God to send you people send you friends that can actually affirm you in real life and in person, and can speak to that. And those people are hard to find, but if we ask God to send them to us, the gospel we heard on Sunday was about the pool of Siloam

that means sent, and Jesus sent the blind man from birth to that pool. And it wasn't the water that healed the man, it was the fact that he was sent to the water. So God can send people to us if they fulfill that vocation and oftentimes that begins by us also being sent. So what Matt said, exactly so, and what Mother also said,

that there's a sense of when we need someone to be sent to us, we oftentimes first see how we're sent to others. God maybe already sent someone to us to speak that love in person so that we're not getting contradicting thoughts online and on social media and from even the priest in the homily, but rather it's very individual.

I can engage with this person that God sent to me and is there someone that I need to be sent to or that I am being sent to? I have had people in my church that we've had these churches full of families and so we have single people that are usually older, two older, have kids and they'll see all these families and they'll stop coming to the church because they'll say, I'm the only one who doesn't have this and it's so depressing and I'll oftentimes tell them, I get it, I get it, but you're actually not the only one. And the fact that you feel like you're the only one,

I'm gonna ask you to look around and see the two or three other people standing there, probably feeling the exact same way. And they're also saying that they're the only one. And so if you can be the one who initiates this and says, you may be feeling lonely, I feel lonely, it's hard being here with all these kids. I had a really, a woman stopped coming,

she was in a marriage that was struggling, and she said, I can't go to church anymore because my brother-in-law, at various times in divine liturgy, would just reach over and touch my sister's back and give a little rub, and then she said, my husband has never done that. And so she gets so jealous that she just couldn't come anymore.

And I said, you know, sometimes we need those people that come to us and to be fulfilled. But we also then, as you mentioned, we need to go out to them. We have a vocation to the same thing. Like you said, this testimony could be an amazing thing. And the other thing I wanted to mention is what I was mentioning to all you guys last night. In the Holy Land, at the chapel where Peter denied Christ three times, I was able to hear confessions there, which was an amazing experience of hearing confessions

right where Peter denied Christ three times. Something that led Judas to be condemned and to kill himself, led Peter to repentance. And I love the three icons. The three icons are Peter denying Jesus, Peter repenting, and then Jesus forgiving him by the water when he asked him to lead his sheep.

And when you look at the first icon of Peter denying Christ, there's no halo. And you know in Byzantine agonography, the halo is so incredibly important. And then the halo does not come back when Christ forgives him. The halo comes back when he's repenting alone and he's talking to God,

and now all of a sudden the halo's back. Like, you're obviously little one, like you want to repent. Like you want to repent all this. He's like, that's when God is gonna begin to bless you. Even before that person has sent to you or before you're sent to that person, the fact that you can voice so beautifully

and eloquently repentance here and typing it out, just go to Jesus and say, I wasn't myself, you know, and I do repent of this. The graces began flowing, that halo comes back to us as soon as we repent, and then we go through the steps of getting the affirmation, the support, coming into the church, all those steps that are required to become a, you know, a communed member

of the body of Christ, but even the repentance that you already do, pray Psalm 50, Psalm 51, you know, have mercy on me, O God in your kindness, pray that Psalm and, and allow that to be a song of repentance. Pray that Jesus, pray Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner. Like that, that, that beginning of repentance is probably the most grace experience you'll have. And then ask our Lord to send you people that can stand in front of you and can speak to God's love for you in person, rather than just hearing it from us

and from others who are trying to help you from a distance. Thank you. The priest, this is an optional prayer as part of the Byzantine confession, but the priest can say, "'God through Nathan the prophet forgave David his sins and Peter shedding bitter tears over his denial and the adulterous weeping at his feet and the publican and the prodigal son. May the same God through me a sinner

forgive you everything in this life and in the life to come and may he make you stand uncondemned before his awesome judgment seat for he is blessed forever and ever, amen. And I think that that would be the last thing I would say is like, you don't even have to trust our words, but most importantly to trust the words of the Lord who says that you are forgiven and who says neither do I condemn you.

What's interesting is the most beautiful feature in another person is vulnerability to me, you know, I'm sure everybody the most like ugly is pride. And yet when it comes to ourselves, we somehow believe that the opposite is true. If I was vulnerable to you, like you wouldn't be around me. So I need to therefore put on a front. It's yeah. Yeah. That's the work of the devil You think of Revelation chapter 12 verse 10, right? Satan is called the accuser of our brethren

Mm-hmm, and I've learned that the word paraclete a word given to the Holy Spirit means defense attorney. Mm-hmm So he God tells us who we are and then he reminds us who we are as the enemy tells us who we're not who we are, as the enemy tells us who we're not. This person says, I entered and left a karma like monastery a while back, now married with two kids. I love my husband and kids, but I still experience mourning about not being called to religious life. My hope is that I can be close to God as a married woman. But when the rubber meets the road, I still kind of stuck suck.

I still kind of suck. I sass my husband. I yell at my kids. I'm excessively sensitive Etc. You're beautiful. Thank you for being talk about vulnerability. You're lovely Thank you for being vulnerable with us and it is hard to see if any progress is being made When I saw my spiritual father last week the assurance he saw in me that I am moving towards God is that I still go to confession But that was it any advice for someone like me that intimacy with Christ is possible? I think that if God had to call you to religious life, and if you were living that life, you'd be saying the same thing in that context. I sass my sisters, I do this, I do that. It's the same thing in that context. I sass my sisters, I do this, I do that.

It's these thorns in the flesh that you have that God is going to turn into your cross, allow it to become a sacrifice, and he's gonna make you holy. And so these temptations that are built into you are thorns in the flesh, they're crosses, but to sound cliche, they're of course then opportunities for God to make you holy.

And again, as part of your testimony, it's part of what God wants you to grow strong through. So, and I love that, you know, I have, what's that phrase? I think it was St. John Biani came across a man in the church and somehow he knew the man couldn't read and so the man was sitting there not holding a book, not holding a rosary, and he was sitting there every day and John Biondi said, what do you do here? You're not reading our rosary, as I remember the story.

And the man just said, I just sit here and I look at God and God looks at me. And I thought, just what a beautiful act of prayer, a simple act of prayer. And I have a spiritual daughter who she let me share this because I thought it was so beautiful. And she said the other day, she was so mad at God. She just gone through a breakup

and she was so mad at God that she said, she walked into the church and popped herself down and said, I'm not gonna talk to you, but you can look at me. That's all it was like, I'm gonna sit here so you can look, I know that's what you want. I'm not even saying I'm looking back at you. I'm mad at you right now and I'm not gonna talk to you,

but I'm gonna let you look at me. And I was like, what a beautiful, if that's all you can do, that's all you can do. But amen. I'm so glad that there are 73 books in the Bible, because if you were only to look at one or two, you might think that your prayer life ought to look exactly how this person is praying. But it's great to see the different personalities and temperaments and expressions of prayer throughout scripture, because you'll probably find yourself in this somewhere. Yeah. You know, Kashin, I think it's I think it's in Kashin when he's writing about the eight evil thoughts that he learned from Avagrius. He talks about anger. I'm just thinking, as you say, Father Michael, that this is an opportunity when he talks about anger. He talks about the monk who decides

to go be a hermit, the monk who struggles with anger and to go be off on his own in the desert to not be in community. And that the reason this is so dangerous and so harmful for that particular monk is because it's twofold. It's that first he is not actually addressing the anger. And then second, he's now been self-deceived into thinking he's no longer angry because he's simply no longer around the things that are triggering the anger. And so if this is something that is something that needs purged within you, then praise God that it's being revealed to you through your spouse and children. I remember prior to children, you know, my wife and I pottering about a bookstore and reading aphorisms from the saints and sipping my latte and feeling very enlightened.

And then my children crying throughout the night and vomiting and, you know, all that's required and results from that. That's like a thousand spiritual books. If I'll just read them. A lot of the time I was like, I don't want to, this sucks. This is pain. I want to throw off the cross, you know, that reminds me of the imitation of Christ. I can't find it right here, but where he says, you know, the married man thinks if only I were a priest and the priest thinks if only I were a monk and the monk thinks of only I were a hermit and the hermit thinks of only I were married.

This it's it's also I know that this isn't helpful. So I'm going to say it anyway. But I, you know, I've had this conversation with my spiritual children as well about just like where we're at and where. Like what's happening in the present and just just knowing that. The present moment is is the only moment in which God is right. He's the ever present God, and like this is where we encounter him. And so regardless of like.

I don't know, you can't even really use this language, but regardless of what God quote unquote was calling you to, like, frankly, it just, it doesn't matter in a very practical sense. Like God is now calling you to be a married woman with these children. And so the question, I think that the devil very much just like uses these what if questions to distract us from what God is doing right now. From what is. Yeah. And the you know, we had I took a class recently on monasticism, the history of monasticism,

and the priest was talking about logismoi, which is this, the concept of like it's the logismoi are the thoughts that, that flutter around, that enter our mind. And 99.9% of the time the fathers are talking about logismoi as being negative thoughts or distractions. There is the rare occasion, just because it happens, I want to put it out there so that people realize, like, there are rare occasions in which one of the fathers will talk about logismoi being neutral, or every once in a while that they can be a positive thing. But 99.9% of the time, they're talked about as being the negative or the distracting thoughts. And when this priest was giving the course on

monasticism, he said, um, every single logismoi speaking in the negative sense is always something of the past or the future. It's always trying to pull you away from the present. Which when he said it, I was like, Oh yeah, I, I guess that's true. That makes sense. And then like over the next couple of weeks, as I'm praying the Jesus prayer and the distracting thoughts are coming in. I tried to be attentive to that. And I was like, literally every single one, every single one of these distracting thoughts is about something from the past or thinking about something in the future.

It's never keeping you in the present because the devil never wants you in the present because that's where God is. And so to even remind yourself of that as you're questioning the what ifs, to remember that like this this could just be a distraction from what's happening right now. I want to share a prayer from St. Faustina. Oh, my God, when I look into the future, I am frightened. But why plunge into the future?

Only the present moment is precious to me. As the future may never enter my soul at all, it is no longer in my power to change, correct, or add to the past. For neither sages nor prophets could do that. And so what the past has embraced, I must entrust to God. O present moment, you belong to me, whole and entire. I desire to use you as best I can. And although I am weak and small, you grant me the grace of your omnipotence And so trusting in your mercy I walk through life like a little child offering you each day

This heart burning with love for your greater glory Yeah, that's good Joseph asks recently I went on post inia at Christ the Briger in monastery. Hi mother Hi and being able to pray all the services with you was deeply Recently, I went on Pustinia at Christ the Briger in Monastery. Hi, Mother. Hi. And being able to pray all the services with you was deeply. I really liked Joseph. He knows that. Good. A deeply moving experience. However, it reminded me that I often fall into the trap of constantly searching

for the purest form of Eastern Christianity. You're not alone, brother. This is a beautiful question. And fail to appreciate what my parish offers. I end up looking longingly at other Eastern Catholic churches or sometimes even the Orthodox, even though I know where that that this path has no end. Sorry, even though I know this path has no end. Please help. You spoke really beautifully about this in our Beyond Checking Boxes podcast. So I think you could. I don't know if I remember what I said, of course, but yeah, I mean, there is that uneasiness,

that discontent. And I wanna say to your previous question too, and it fits here, that there's a, like the way you feel is normal. Like every woman who beautifully discerned religious life and then got married, was called to that, feels that draw. You're not doing anything that is odd. Don't feel like you're doing something wrong.

Everybody feels that way though, those little little regrets. I don't know what I said, but I think if I, do you remember what I said? If you do, then go ahead and say it. But I- No, no. Okay.

But I- Just like the temptation, you were speaking about the temptation to just think that it needs to be all of these things in order for it to be, OK. But I just like the temptation you were speaking about, like the temptation to just think that like it needs to be all of these things in order for it to be. Yeah, a lot of times these temptation of this is the case with you, Joseph Joseph Joseph is is that like so instance, for instance, my first girlfriend, I asked her out just because I thought she was pretty and it was my birthday. And so I had to something to invite her to. And I said, hey, me and my friends are going bowling. Do you want to come with us tonight? And she said, I need to ask my mom,

which I just thought was a total cop out, you know, but she showed up and before cell phones or that, so she shows up. The, the, I had been so hoping that she would show up, not because I wanted to look into a nice relationship, not because I wanted to date her. That was all secondary to, I want I wanted to look into a nice relationship, not because I wanted to date her, that was all secondary too. I want my friends to see this beautiful woman walk in

and say she's there for me. Like I wanted, she was so pretty that I wanted to show off how amazing I was that I could pick up this girl. So the same thing I find is true for parishes. We're so afraid that someone we're gonna invite someone to our parish and they're gonna go, why do you go there? Like the singing was bad, the breach homily was bad or this person is annoying or there's not enough families. And we always think like, what are other people gonna say about something I'm so proud of?

What are other people gonna say about that brush? And when we had a podcast about checking boxes, like I go into a parish and it must have a full iconostasis. It must have icons on the walls. It must not have pews. We have all these things that we wanna check. We wanna show off our parish to our friends, or at least be able to defend the fact that we go to that parish

to those who will question us about why. And there's just a great pride to that. So I don't know if that's what you do. That's what I do, Joseph, is that we need to make sure that I feel called to be here and in great humility I'm gonna sit in and I'm gonna let myself grow. As I've said before, like that sometimes I will utterly sin and neglect my people by not preparing a homily and I it's total sin. I wasn't even that busy. I won't prepare a homily.

I'll give a homily. I think it's horrible but I will get so much good feedback that I go to our Lord and I say, Lord stop encouraging me not to prepare because when I don't prepare Lord you give them so much grace that I am gonna do this again because I remember this and our Lord one time just said to me, he was like, get over yourself, like you think just because you neglect your people that I'm also gonna neglect them? No, I love your people more than you do. So I'm gonna help them even if you neglect them. So I've always said, even if it's just the worst mass

or liturgy you've ever attended, our Lord's not gonna neglect you. Even if the priest or the choir neglected you, our Lord is gonna give you something from the word of God, from an inspiration he gave you independent of everything else going on. And so this is the beauty of God, from an inspiration. He gave you independent of everything else going on. And so this is the beauty of what every Roman Catholic has and many Eastern Christians have is that your local parish,

like that's where you start. Now I have no issue with families deciding to go somewhere else, especially if their kids are not being fed. I would do the same thing. I would flee a parish for a better one if I had kids. Absolutely, no question because it's about my kids. If it's just me, I go and I'm like, okay, I'm gonna start with my local parish.

I'm gonna really invest in this, even if I have a family to a certain extent, but I'm gonna lean into it and not be embarrassed by the surface things as if I'm just trying to impress somebody else. So I think there's something to say for, be content, give it a period of time, don't look for the ideal.

We do this as priests. I judge my brother priests for the way their churches look or the way they preach or the way their choir sings. We all do it. So it's not that odd, but just make sure that the reasons why you're tempted to move on in this, you said it so beautifully Joseph, it never ends. The reason why you're tempted to move on in this you said it so beautifully Joseph

You know it never ends the reason why we're tempted to do that What are the reasons for that ask our Lord to guide you in the reasons for that and then say? He's probably just asking to be me to be content for a while And if I know that's my temptation let me lean into the opposite and say here's where I go now and and I've God's to bless me through this experience. And we need to always have the balance of like. We should want to bring beauty to our parish, right? And so, like working to bring the beauty and to to come back to certain traditions.

But but realize, but like making sure that we are constantly opening our hearts in prayer for the purification of the motives of wanting to go back to those traditions. Like are we wanting to do it because it's just the traditional thing that makes me more authentically Byzantine or am I wanting to do it because it's the thing that brings beauty to the church and makes God more accessible in our liturgical prayer. Because I'm reminded of the passage in screw tape letters, where the demon is saying that basically it's good to get the

person, the client patient, I don't remember what they're calling him, but the Christian focused on thinking that their God is in the crucifix on the wall. Get them to think he's in a particular place or a particular object, as in like distract him from the fact that God is everywhere and that God is even within the Christian. Because I think that we can use things like icons, like adoration. We can use things as a crutch and even as idols. Like when we think like, I can't pray if I'm not in the presence of the Eucharist, or I can't pray if I'm not praying with an icon, then we're like limiting ourselves.

Not ourselves, we're limiting God. Like we're trying, we're in some sense saying that God can't speak to us without these particular externals. Mason Hickman And yesterday at Divine Liturgy, I was speaking to a fellow who over the last year or two had been attracted to Divine Liturgy and Eastern Christianity and so had begun to attend an Eastern Catholic parish and then found himself sort of frustrated with certain things, maybe similar to what Joseph's talking about. And so became an orthodox catechumen for a while. I don't put words in this person's mouth, but it sounded to me that he was saying until

he realized there's chaos everywhere, like there's mess everywhere. And now he's back. So I have a friend. I have a friend who has who went out to go find himself by a by a lake one time went hiking And I forget the whole story He'll correct me after he sees this but um but he he found a like a stick and he was like playing with the stick while kind of trying to Find himself and find life and all these things and and somehow while he was holding that stick as I remember he

Our Lord just told him you you're you here, moving there, the problem is you. Like, you, I mean, we've all heard this, you bring yourself to these places. So he kept the stick, he puts it on his desk, so that when he's feeling discontent, he looks at the stick and he goes, stop trying to change your atmosphere, right? God wants to change your heart,

so that wherever you go, whatever your situation, whatever parish you're in, whatever beauty or mess you're in, you are the temple of the Holy Spirit. You are a tabernacle of God and he's working there. Don't be a whitewashed tomb. You know, find that beauty in there. And there's such a freedom.

You told me this the other day, right? There's such a freedom to then saying, I can go various places. I don't need, I'm not clinging, I'm not anchored to one thing. I have a friend that will not go to a Roman church unless it has an altar rail. I'm like, you are such a slave to altar rails. We can treat different liturgies the way we treat exotic coffee blends or coffee houses. It's like we're looking for the most exotic thing where it's like, guess what?

There's enough in your little Novus Auto Parish with your little Magnificat and your poorly said rosary every day for you to become a saint. Oh yeah. Acquire interior peace and thousands around you will be saved. Amen.

Paul the Hoot, is that how I say his last name? I think it's, I muted myself again. I think it's Loud. I'm gonna say Loud. He knows who he is. Paul, I just wanna say a big thank you to you. This person who's about to ask this question He does the timestamps for our show. He's so kind. I mean well, so you go

So that it doesn't matter other people do you scroll through a play bar and you see that there's different chapters in the play bar So you can quickly skip to the section you want to skip to that's an option YouTube allows for you and Paul I offered to pay him and he said, I don't want to take the money, I just want to do this. So I just want to say thank you to Paul. It's a real beautiful service and we're grateful for you. He says, hi Matt, mother Natalia and father O'Loughlin. Great to e-meet you. It's always great to see Eastern brothers and sisters represent the diversity with which the Lord is praised. Question, there is a Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church just down the street from me. It is super small and the parish community is aging my friends and

I would love to help the parish but I am committed to my Maronite parish and I'll also be leaving to medical school soon could you please give some advice to my friends who are going to inevitably watch this on what they can do to help the parish PS Thursday is an amazing producer Did you pay him to say that? No, he just really likes me and I really like him. Yeah. Any advice? You want to work? Can I give you I'll give advice, even though I'm you're much better place to do it. But I would think that if I was a priest of a parish, the one thing I don't have a

great deal of is time. So I would imagine that if a young man came up to me and said, here's a way I would like to offer my talent and time to the parish, if it's acceptable to you. If I was that priest and the thing he suggests was acceptable, I would be like, thank you.

Yeah. That's actually something I was going to suggest for that same reason. But I think, again, also just being cautious to pray to purify your motives, because I don't think it's healthy to just go to a parish, go into a parish with this like Messiah complex of I'm going to do the things

to fix this parish, to make it the right place, to grow it and so on and so forth. Like we want to do that for the glory of God, but but but not just like to appease some desire within ourselves of and so you have to be really really self-aware there and honest with yourself in prayer. And I think for that reason it's important to even Just be a part of the parish for a while before you're going to try to just change a bunch of things.

You know, this was something that Father Michael very wisely put in place with me when I started going to the parish in Denver, because I I did have pure motives there, but I just like I immediately wanted to help and I wanted to like do all of the ministries that I could and so on and so forth. And Father Michael was like, I really, for a certain amount of time, want you to do nothing. I want you to just receive from the parish. Again, going back to that, like being affirmed in our identity, knowing that we're not earning anything that this is, this is a family that you're entering into and that you are loved just

by being here and not because you're contributing something and getting to that place first. He then was desperate for help and so he cut that time short. But, and he's like, okay, you can help me. But I think that there's a wisdom there of like also just be with the parish and start to enter into the family because as you enter into a family and into a community, you start to become more aware of the needs, because their needs might not even be immediately what you think the needs are. And so being discerning in that, but also, yes, absolutely just being in communication

with the priest, because the priest is the father of the parish. And so he is also more aware of the needs than than you are. And it might be something entirely different than than what you think. But offering suggestions, like you said, Matt, of how you think you could help, like what you think your your talents and your your gifts are. Father Michael had this like really brilliant thing. I don't know if you've done it at your parish in L.A. But when we were in Denver, he put out a survey of sorts of like, what are what are the talents that you'd like to to offer to the parish,

like to put out there for it? Because I was I was a college student at the time. And I was like, I mean, I don't really I don't have like money to be giving to the parish. I'm just this broke college student, but I'm an engineering student and I can certainly like tutor kids in the parish. And tutoring is very expensive. And so, you know, we advertise to that in the bulletin

and I tutored multiple kids in the parish for free. And so like being aware of your own talents, because if you just say like, I'd like to help however it's necessary, they might not even be thinking of like, what are the things we need? It's kind of like when a mother has a baby and people like, how can I help? Please just decide on something and do it. It's much like, let me know if you need anything. You know, that's like, that's too vague.

Too vague. And I still feel guilty then asking you. Right. Whereas if you say, I'm going to bring dinner tonight. Yeah. Is that OK? Oh, yes. Thank you. Yeah.

So and that was great at the parish because then it's like, oh, we have a parishioner who's like a certified plumber or a certified electrician or something like that. You know, like maybe they can contribute in that way as even if they don't necessarily have money to to contribute. And in a very similar vein, in the early church, you did not, your voice was not heard and you were really not seen in any liturgical way

until you were ordained to do so. So you were ordained a cantor, you were ordained a lector, you were ordained all these things. So most people in the parish, their role in building a good parish was not in the liturgy, that was if you were ordained to do so. Your role was not in the liturgy. That was if you were ordained to do so. Your role was outside of the liturgy.

So I would say like, walk up to that old man or that old lady and just say, hey, can I take you for coffee? I've seen you here. And like start building up the community apart from the liturgy and start learning about them. You're gonna have so much respect for these people, these older people, these aging people

that have endured so much to pray every single week at that parish in a parish that is shrinking. And I can imagine that's gonna be hard. people that have endured so much to pray every single week at that parish in a parish that is shrinking. And I can imagine that's gonna be hard. They've been through so much. You can probably learn a lot from them and then also give them the service of your company, of buying them lunch and try to build up.

Then once you've done that, start inviting parishioners to your home for a cigar night or a whiskey night or dinner and start working on the things outside of the liturgy. And I think you will see that that's where the spirit works to improve what's gonna end up being a very healthy parish and it's gonna provide good liturgy. But your role may not be liturgical.

Your role may be everything else outside of that, which is what 90% of the parish is focused on. Their vocation is to be good family people and to build a community and then let the spirit work in the priests and the deacons and the cantors and everything else apart from you and those two things will go together like two lungs. Matt Ramirez says, "'My young female cousin recently became confirmed

"'and has made comments about entering religious life. "'What are some steps she can take to discern "'if this is right for her and when she should do it?' This applies obviously to every young woman watching who might be open to this. Sure. I think the most important thing is... Sorry, I just jumped on this. No, that's for definitely for you. I think the most important thing is to start building relationships and getting to know religious women and monastics or whatever it is that you're interested in.

Because it's like when someone is thinking about marriage, they're not just like, I mean, like you're getting to know men, right? Like you're building relationships. You're not just jumping straight to the like, oh, I just met this person tonight, so probably we should go get married. Like, nor are you stalking them on, or you shouldn't be, nor are you merely stalking them on Facebook in the way that we might stalk a religious community by being on their website, but never actually entering into dialogue with them. Yeah.

And that was, you know, in my in my own in my own discernment, like I tried for I tried for a minute to do like a dating fast so that I could be open to a celibate vocation. In the midst of that dating fast, I wasn't like visiting any communities. I wasn't talking with any nuns. I just was like simply not dating. So I was like not doing this really fun thing that I love to do. And I'm like not putting anything else in its place. I'm just not doing it. And so like that didn't end well.

And then the next time I decided to, to try out discernment, I told father Michael, like, I, I don't want to date right now until I actually visit a community because I knew that I needed to actually encounter the people and, and see, like I needed to have all of the misconceptions I had about celibacy broken. Not all of them. There were so many misconceptions that didn't break until after I answered. But. But yeah, building those relationships and getting to know different sisters to the extent that you can. I realize that not everyone just has religious life around them.

But, you know, like, oh, the family's going on a vacation to this particular place. Maybe see if there are any convents in the area that you could visit while you're there. And we do have praise God. We have social media. We have so so definitely checking things out there. But like you're saying, not stopping at just the social media and like the. What is your handle on social media? Do you know?

Um, or what could they at least look up to find it? I mean, we have Facebook and things like that. Christ the Bridegroom. Um, but, uh, we don't have a newsletter that you can see online. What's the newsletter website? Um, it's on our Christ the Bridegroom.org website. Yeah. They do good. Pomegranate Blossoms is the name of our newsletter. And this question is similar but it's about men. So I didn't mean to cut you off there. Do you

have more there? Okay. Mike says how would someone know the difference between wanting to be a priest and God calling him to be a priest? I like the way you asked that Mike because most of the time we are overly pious and we say it doesn't matter what I want I'm gonna fall but I like no it does matter what you want because you you need you God created you I'm a romantic in this way. God created you for that vocation We can always say no we can live a good Christian life if we deny the vocation But God we are still created for this vocation So we do need to listen but therefore the desire was also put in us. And we oftentimes will say, mother and I both had this experience,

we went from discerning being called to celibacy to actually wanting to be called to celibacy. And we finally told our Lord, please call me to celibacy. And so then that's a big change, because of course both of us at one point wanted to be called to marriage. And we were asking our Lord, Lord send me somebody somebody So when you have that that desire is very very important So I think you have to kind of lean into the chaos and the fact that you you may not know

I and that there's something beautiful about the mystery where Byzantine they write the mystery of saying I All I know is that this is something that is attractive to me. As Mother said, I've lived that life as much as I can for a while. I mean, how do you know, you were the day you asked Cameron to marry you, you were unsure. There was still this, so leaning into that mystery,

you still say, I'm gonna do this for a period of time, guided by a spiritual director or a mentor or people I love that know me. I'm gonna live this for a while. time guided by a spiritual director or a mentor or people I love that know me. I'm gonna live this for a while. And then if I had that moment too, where I said, God, I don't feel you call me to marriage. So I'm gonna go ask a girl out and you have to stop me if you don't want this, right?

I want this, but I'm gonna invite you into stopping me from this if you want to do that Lord. So there's an awkwardness that's almost always there. We move forward with what we feel called to do. We give the beauty of time a chance, beauty of space a chance, these two things. We live in that for a while. We deeply see how do I feel.

It's either deep peace or deep anxiety about this and then I just keep on going. I mean, it's oftentimes where, and as of course I get older and I've been selling a bit longer, when I have these moments of loneliness or questioning, I'm like, I've been doing this for 19 years. Like, what's another day?

One day at a time, if I've done it for this long, I can probably do it again. When we do that for a long period of time, it's just the reality kicks in. So I don't know. I think that most people don't really know the difference. They say, I want this and God has seemingly allowed me to continue desiring this, moving this direction.

And at some point I just say, that's how God works in my life. He doesn't speak from the cloud. He just gives me general peace in the journey I'm on. And that for must mean I'm gonna continue that journey. And if the bishop at some point says, I'm gonna ordain you. So therefore this is the journey for the rest of your life.

And you say, yeah, you know, now again, that, that many have fallen out of the, these vocations, of course, divorce and leaving the priesthood. So we need to make sure that we are our general peace in that direction. But I think usually what we were told in the seminary by the rector is that everybody can fake something for about three to five years. So, so three to five years. So three to five years is a good testing for these things. And so you know you're not faking it if you're still at peace, have a deep peace after trying

something for that period of time. That's why religious orders have at least three to five years of discernment. Seminaries have at least three to five years of discernment. Marriage has a lot less than that usually. But at least there's a naturalness to marriage that assists in that process. I do think though that there is something to be said for. I like the fact that he's asking the question because I've talked with discerners who have said like, I want to be a nun.

I've wanted to be a nun my whole life. And then when I kind of press into that and I'm like, well, why do you want to be a nun, I've wanted to be a nun my whole life. I and then when I kind of press into that and I'm like, well, why do you want to be a nun? When there is not like really an answer there, when I'm just hearing a lot of eyes and I once then then that makes me a little bit start to ask the question of like, have you prayed about this? Like, do you do you think it's also what God wants? Because I think that you're right, that people can tend towards like God wants this and therefore I must do it even if I don't want it.

But we can also have the opposite problem where people are being attracted to the the externals of the priesthood or the externals of religious life. Or the like, I'm told that this is the highest calling. And thus, I want that for myself. But that being said, the, the whether or not like God wants it that that can come simply through, like you're saying, Father Michael, that peace, it doesn't mean necessarily that like, um, I've, I've heard this voice from on high or something like God, God's voice, the Lord's voice is a voice that speaks of peace and peace and joy.

These are fruits of the Holy Spirit, according to St. Paul. Yeah, I would also say, though, not to be afraid of your superficial attractions early on. Yeah, I can imagine somebody saying, I want to be a Franciscan because I just look so cool. But being afraid that that's far too superficial reason to be a Franciscan. And they would be right. But it doesn't mean they should be afraid of it.

Yes. Yeah. Whenever a man is attracted to a woman, it's usually for superficial reasons. And that's how you begin. And that's natural and healthy and OK. It needs to lead into something deeper, as you say. And I can't tell you how many times either meeting a seminarian and I want to tap into that zeal or remembering my overly romanticized view of the

priesthood of like I'm going to be walking through the the supermarket parking lot wearing a collar and some kid's going to go oh my gosh you're a gossip I need to go to confession and I'm going to hear their confession right there in the parking lot like that romanticized view of the service aspect of priesthood still gets me through the day sometimes I look back on that and I go I want that zeal again because it's true like. Like I want that romanticized view that won't sustain me, but it'll get me over those rough patches too to say, let me find that again. Let me go walk through a parking lot just to say, I'm actually living that now. That may happen. A really wise priest that I know once said, and this wasn't you, Father Michael.

A really wise priest that I know once said that you, you go to the monastery to die. That is the reason you enter the monastery. That should be the first thing on your website. You're ready to die. And like the reason for monasticism is to die. And he said, if you enter the monastery and that's not why you came, either God is going to purify that and that's why you stay or you leave.

Because absolutely, like I had, the Lord brought me to the monastery through so many things that like, those are not the reasons that I stayed, you know, and like, I came back to the Catholic Church because I had a crush on a guy and he invited me to mass. Um, it was not a date. That was a different guy. Yeah. Yeah. Um, okay. Jared, B Harlan. Thanks mate says I'm a new Christian after being an atheist for 15 years with a dark sense of humor. 31 now. It's hard to discern the line between growing in holiness through my dark direct humor versus praying to grow out of it

Like where's the lines so I can be conscious about it. I'd love to hear thoughts from the three of you. I don't fully understand the question, but perhaps you do. Yeah, I'm wondering he mentions like coming to Christ through the dark humor. It's hard to discern the line between growing in holiness through my dark direct humor. I wonder if he's talking about there are kind of like strains and strands and elements within him that may have been sort of curated through his time as an atheist that feel a part of him and he's not sure how much of this could get baptized versus how much needs to get thrown out that might not at all be what he means

what you don't think or you don't know either I was just I was saying I have no clue I am I'm wondering too if there there's a certain grounding I mean one thing is is that I live about Catholicism and we kind of touched on this earlier is that it is, and this is why I've kept my faith all these years because my parents made the faith very relevant to me. So I think when you have a dark humor, normally you think of people with a dark humor

are like my brother who's a cop, right? Like you see so many horrible things that you have to among your friends have this dark humor that is not for public consumption, but it is so real to you that you have to among your friends have this dark humor that is not for public consumption, but it is so real to you that you feel, you can almost be attracted to Catholicism or the faith through the realness of it. It's gritty, it's dark.

I mean, we have bone churches in Rome where they just took bones and decorated, made them into chandeliers and decorations. We have relics and we have, there's just so much that can be so visceral that I think a dark humor actually works better in Catholicism, East and West, and in Orthodoxy, then it does in kind of newly created denominations and sects that tend to overly emphasize the pious and the happy and the nice families all holding hands going to the church together. Like we Catholics kind of cringe at that. They're like, yeah, like, huh. There's so much more and dark humor doesn't always get

in the way of our faith, but it can be, you can just say, I can't share this with everybody because it would turn people off, but there is something so real and grounded about the faith that I'm not gonna be I'm not going to be overly scandalized by something that is just kind of where the rubber hits the road for most people. So I don't know, we, we, we, we may be totally off here, but I mean, regardless of, of what the intention of his question was, I think that regardless of whether it's, it's dark humor or,

or whatever the thing is, like we have to just constantly be discerning, um, in prayer and with a spiritual director and things like that. Like what are the things in my life that are bringing me closer to the Lord and what are the things that are not? You know, like we have I'm I'm constantly doing this. I try to not do it in like obsessive ways, but like these are the conversations I had today. Like how did I feel at the end of that conversation? Was it actually edifying? Did it bring me closer to the Lord or did we just like blow smoke for however long?

And and like there was no fulfillment in it afterwards. Like, is your dark humor actually like, you know, better than we do, whether or not your dark humor is bringing you closer to the Lord. David asks, I was serving in a parish with the choir until once I spoke with parish priest and he told me some things which are contrary to the faith, specifically on sexual morality. So I took the decision to change parish because I didn't like him preaching those things. Was that a good decision or should I stay and keep serving? That's a really I don't know. That's a tough question. And I think it's very nuanced.

I think the thing that I wonder is whether or not whether or not you said it was David. Or you didn't say a name. I think it was David. OK. David, whether or not David, you spoke with that priest one on one and tried to kind of challenge those things or whether or not like. You know, we as a monastery, we we decided at some point to stop using a particular product because of some of the things that they supported.

But we had a conversation in our community of like. What do we do other than just not use it? Because like they're losing a couple bucks from us. But is that actually making a difference if we're not making known the reason we're not using it? Like if we're not actually conveying something so that they understand like what actions are causing this consequence. And, you know, I, I've told this story on our podcast before and someone was very unhappy

with it. But I, I remember I was at a parish where I was just there for daily mass and the priest was preaching about women. He was basically, he was advocating or seeming to advocate for the ordination of women to the priesthood. And I was very upset by it because I know people within my own family who like really hold priests to a high standard and religious.

And so if they hear a priest or a nun say something, they're going to think this is what the church teaches. And I was like, if one of those family members had been there, they would think that this is now what the church is teaching. And so I set up an appointment with that priest and I spoke to him and I did not go in guns blazing because that's not going to solve anything.

But I just said, you know, I was, I was uncomfortable. It seemed to me like I might've been misunderstanding. It seems to me this is what you were saying. And he was like, no, you didn't misunderstand me. That's, that's what I was saying. And I was like, oh, well, like you can't say that in a homily. And he's like, well, I'm, I'm entitled to my own opinion, even though I'm ordained. And I was like, yes, but, but you also promised obedience.

And so if your opinion is in contradiction to church teaching, you shouldn't be preaching that from the pulpit. Um, and you can have your own opinion and like process that with your spiritual director, but this isn't the appropriate place to do that. And you know, he's like, well, agree to disagree. So then I wrote the Bishop. Um, but it's like, I think that we need to take serious the scriptural mandate to go to our brother. And then if our brother refuses to hear, he refuses, then bring in the authority.

And so like, did you tell this priest? Yeah. Like, did you try to give any sort of like challenge there or not? Yeah, that's good. Aman says, hey, guys, I've met Father Michael while he was in Arizona. He probably doesn't remember me, but it's OK. Just wanted to give a shout out

to Holy Resurrection Monastery, where I will be going to discern later this year. Awesome. Shout out to Holy Resurrection. Nice, nice, nice. All right, man, so many. OK, this person would like to be

anonymous and they say, I believe Mother Natalia and Father Michael and Matt, for that I mean, so many. OK, this person would like to be anonymous. And they say, I believe Mother Natalia and Father Michael and Matt, for that matter, were all baptized as Roman Catholics when they were young and decided to switch to a Byzantine right when they were older.

Can we hear a little bit about what led each of you to make that decision? I can answer very briefly. I well, my family left the Catholic Church when I was in high school. I came back in college and then shortly after coming back, I discovered the Byzantine right through a friend who brought me not on a date to a Byzantine liturgy. And I just immediately was attracted to the beauty of the liturgy, to the iconography, to the theology.

I just the more I read, the more I saw, the more I prayed, the more deeply in love I felt with it, which I think is really important to to emphasize when in our discernment we need to be running towards and not a running away from. And so I I think it's a yeah, a danger when someone is like thinking of one right because they're they're running away from another Yeah, it's very similar I discovered the Byzantine liturgy when I was 16 or 17 and that that formative part of my life when I really start throwing Myself and I felt very loved and guided by my parents growing up before that in the Roman Church

And I and I loved to this day, of course I love the Roman Catholic Church and I'm by this day, of course, I love the Roman kind of church and I'm by ritual and I can celebrate that. I love celebrating it. But there was something about that formative time when I really threw myself into that discernment. And I just, I found that the, not only the Byzantine liturgy,

but also the Byzantine mysticism, the spirituality, even the questions, the way that the many teachings in the West are kind of questioned and therefore I feel filled out and made more authentic by kind of the promptings of the Eastern mind. That's the way my brain worked. And I really did find that as beautiful as they both were, I felt that I personally thought, prayed, engaged more with the Eastern way of seeing things

and the nuances there and the mystery, et cetera, than I did in the West. But the same thing, I was definitely not running away from anything, I would be very, very happy as a Roman Catholic and as a Roman Catholic priest. I just would not feel as fulfilled. And I live now so fully in the East as I understand it. I live so fully in the East that there would be

immense hardship now to make my main spirituality something else. But I do feel that when someone says the same thing in my parish and they say, father, I need the Roman way of thinking, I need the scholasticism, I need the details, I need the more emphasis on cataphatic theology, the more emphasis on the crucifixion, etc.

Then I cannot argue against that. I say you may be built or formed to a more Roman Catholic mindset, and I think you should investigate that further. So I do feel that each of the rites, each of the expressions has their own, has the followers that are more made for that beyond just what I've seen and loved and what's nearby my house. So I just felt that in this year, it took me years, the process of kind of discerning, is this where I want to live my primary spirituality, and this is what I'm going to immerse myself in completely towards my salvation. A hundred years ago, maybe something like culture existed in our country, but it doesn't today. And so we are

cultureless people looking for a culture. And that looks rigid and weird a lot of the time. I remember going to a Byzantine church in Texas and noticing a prayer rope that had a bead every 10 beads and asked, oh cool, like it's a rosary too, is what I was saying. And they assured me quite emphatically that no, we don't do that here. We don't pray the rosary here. And then I was just in Ukraine and it's like people who are comfortable with their culture aren't afraid of healthy innovations and healthy, you know, so you go to this gorgeous, you know, Ukrainian, Greek Catholic church and you see an icon and then you see the Sacred Heart of Jesus and you see the Byzantine nuns who went to their monastery with rosaries and shot keys.

Whereas it's like because we don't have our own culture, we're weird about that. Because we're, and maybe we're right to be weird about it. Just like the Quebecois are very, very hard about their not being English or if there is English, they better be French with it, because they're trying to preserve a culture that if they were not to, it would be washed away. So I understand that in a basically Western kind of place, you're going to need to kind of put up these defenses, maybe to kind of maintain your own identity. But what's weird is it's not it wasn't the identity we were born with or raised with.

And so I have no conclusions here. I'm just pointing to an awkwardness that exists. It doesn't just exist in the East. It exists in the West when people get a liking for the Latin Mass and they then seek to kind of rearrange their whole life and liturgical calendar. And and it's it just it can look weird. I don't even think that it's wrong to look weird. I just think it's the process from going no culture to a culture that was not given to you.

That's a weird thing. And that's what I see. What do you think? I think part of the wound that particularly we have in the East, even those of us who have entered into the East and fallen in love with it, is that there was so much when Byzantines first came to America, there was so much of like, well, you do this differently and so you're not

Catholic. And there was so much that was like forced upon the East in order to like, we had to do these things that looked Roman Catholic in order to be accepted as Catholic. And so so now we're kind of like many are like swinging in the opposite direction of like, no, this isn't fair. Like I have my own heritage. And again, like even if it's a heritage that I've been like adopted into or something. And so there's sort of this like, also maybe this like a underdog sort of complex of like, I'm going to be staunch in this and I'm going to, because,

because I am legit basically and that makes a lot of sense. So I think that's part of where we're coming from the East as well. A lot of it's insecurity and the one thing I found is that you know when I got to Denver people were saying oh father your predecessor didn't like this but before him we pray the rosary before liturgy you know can we do that again and and I would say, well, it is a venerable tradition to pray third hour before liturgy. And so we're gonna pray third hour for liturgy because that's the Byzantine way.

I'm not gonna replace something Byzantine with something Roman. But if you wanna pray the rosary, feel free to come before third hour and pray it then because we can supplement these things that may be helpful to us, but we don't want to replace anything. I think that's the problem is that for many times,

we would replace Byzantine things because of our insecurity, like you mentioned, mother, we would replace Byzantine things with Roman things. And that just got us in a lot of trouble because like, I'm not kicking out the rosary. I'm just saying we're going back to our authentic tradition here that we need to do. If you want to pray the rosary as a supplemental thing,

that's fine before that, but we need to be authentic in what we do. We need want to pray the rosary as a supplemental thing, that's fine before that, but we need to be authentic in what we do. We need to trust our tradition and not think that we somehow are not complete in ourselves and therefore need to bring these other things that American culture or western culture has provided. A lot of people don't realize that the rosary is prayed in the East. It's called the rule of the Phaotokos. I'm looking it up on Wikipedia. The rule of the Phaotokos is a Christian prayer of the Eastern Orthodox that consists in reciting the angelical Salutations 150 times the rule is similar to the rosary of the Western Church some believe that the mother of God showed the rule

to people in the eighth century AD But was later forgotten and was rediscovered for Eastern Christians by st. Seraphim of Serov The prayer consists of a hundred of 150 Hail Marys essentially, which are divided into 15 decades. Like this is nuts. Have you looked into this? The fact that the rosary kind of grew in both East and West with 15 decades? I always thought that that was an early Byzantine adaptation of what Dominic provided, but I've heard the same thing. It's long before Dominic. So these things may have, they may have been inspired by different things to pray 150 angelic salutations, hail Mary's,

instead of the 150 Psalms. They may have developed separately or together. It's just like when God told Faustina to pray the Holy God, Holy and Mighty, one holy and immortal one. I was like, that we've been doing that for centuries and the East, nobody's copying anybody. Like our Lord gave that to Faustina, but he got it from what the Eastern Church had been doing that for centuries in the East. You know, nobody's copying anybody. Like our Lord gave that to Faustina,

but he got it from what the Eastern Church has been doing, it was something similar. So yeah, there's, I don't, I love the rosary and it doesn't, and the prayer rule of Theotokos, it doesn't really replace anything in the East. And many would claim who are trying to fight against that tradition would claim that, oh, there's repetitive prayer

and there's meditation, kind of imagined meditation on the mysteries and these things are not good. If you're doing that in the Rosary and you are using imaginative prayer to call to mind things that are elaborating on and moving past the scriptures, then you're probably doing it wrong. And that would be anti-Eastern.

But there's also an Eastern way of doing it where it's an authentic prayer. It's so easy to do with the family. It's so easy to do when you're walking. It doesn't really replace anything. The Jesus prayer, we're praying anyway. A true Byzantine would be praying the Jesus prayer and the prayer with the theotokos at the same time,

just like you're praying the Jesus prayer and eating at the same time, just like you're praying to Jesus, eating at the same time, just like you're praying to Jesus prayer and talking to your wife at the same time. These things can happen simultaneously. So I don't fight the rosary because whether it's earlier than in the West anyway, or whether it's something that does not replace anything in the East. Amen. Yeah. I have this desire that I wish the Hail Mary.

OK, so this is just I don't when I say I wish I don't I don't know what I mean, but the Hail Mary used to be a lot shorter. Right. So when Dominic was praying it, when Aquinas was praying it, it was the Holy Mary, Mother of God, was inserted much later. OK. And so sometimes you'll really. Oh, that makes sense, because our rejoice, so Virgin is only the first half. I've never thought of that. Yeah. And if you look at Aquinas's commentary on the Hail Mary, it ends before the Holy Mary. I believe it was added. Could you look this up Thursday, please? I believe it was added after the black plague or something.

And so that became part of the Hail Mary. But you know, you'll read these stories of the saints who pray the hail, the 15 decades of the rosary, like, well, yeah, it was like half the time. Like it's a lot easier. And it would also be a lot easier just to kind of use your breath to pray the Hail Mary, but that kind of short, short statement rather than the Holy Mary. But the Rosary is a beautiful thing for families. It's just something, even if you, I said, I love about our Catholic faith, right? It's like, just forget the supernatural entirely and then look at our traditions

and look at how healthy they are. Everything from going to like a man like you, I went to you the other day and confess things I'm ashamed about. That's a really healthy thing to do, you know? And to not make excuses and to not try to endear yourself to the other person, but instead just to lay out what you're ashamed of.

The Holy Rosary, just to sit together with your family and just to say this rhythmic thing while thinking about beautiful things is a really lovely way to go to sleep. And the Jesus prayer is this beautiful way, again, forgetting the supernatural for a moment, just to kind of come back into touch with your body and to focus on your breath and to, yeah. Okay. All right. The the first part appears as early as the sixth century. That's the just the salutation Hail Mary full of grace the Lord is with thee.

The greeting of Elizabeth blessed art thou among women was added sometime around a thousand the year 1000 and then the word Jesus was added about two centuries later look at this possibly by urban the fourth and then the last part was added by pious the fifth when the Breivary was rewritten during the Reformation. Wow. Yeah Yeah, because if you read Louie de Montfort He'll say to say a little phrase after each Hail Mary in the rosary So it'll be hail Mary full of grace always with thee blessed are my women and blessed the fruit of thy womb Jesus who was in who became incarnate, you know, and that makes sense again unless you got that other half

which you could still insert but it makes a little still insert, but it makes it a little clunky. But anyway, some thoughts. Tell us as we begin to wrap up about your lovely little podcast and how it's going and what you have planned and where people should listen. Sure. So I got invited on to the Catholic W. You should know podcast, which I wouldn't. I don't think that was the O.G. Yeah, I wouldn't know you without that podcast that's the beginning of so I was on that I got invited on that podcast because one of my priest brothers got moved to Rome and he needed to find a replacement to podcast

father Nathan Goble because father Nathan Goble is just a treat of a man to listen to he's hilarious and he's deep and he's holy and so they needed someone for it to be the laugh track and to bounce ideas off him. So that's what we did. So I joined that podcast. And then probably four years later, my bishop moved me to Los Angeles and we had a discussion. Some of us on the podcast wanted to keep me on like,

you know, virtually where I'd call in. And then we decided, the board said, no, the beauty of this podcast is that we're together and we live together and we share life together together and that's is expressed in this podcast. So so I went off of it. And then one of the listeners just I think I've been said earlier just gave me money to start my own. So I did that. I bought some equipment and I discerned starting a podcast. It's actually it's actually quite incredible. I mean, our life is quite different, I think, since I have not thought about this too deeply,

but we chatted at least once a month. We wanted to see each other as much as possible, but having, I think honestly, like with Catholic stuff, I would not have become nearly as close of a friend with Father Nathan Goebel unless I was on the podcast with him. The same thing I think is true here. Like we've grown so much closer

through this ability to have this podcast. And it's really beautiful that way, something we would not have without it. But I just prayed and I discerned and I called Mother Theodora up and I said, hey, can I pretty much make her be on my podcast? Be under obedience. She's gonna say no, I know she is,

because she doesn't like the attention and she's not gonna think she's very good at it and all the other things that are very mother to tell you So mother says yes, we'll both say that she's under obedience was of course We would not have done really but um, but it was so I called her I asked her she like wait what yeah She had her hesitations And then you said you can pray about it. That's fine. But just you know, I'm willing to make this obedience Yeah, exactly. I didn say that, I remember that.

But when he said submit woman, that felt a bit aggressive. It's something about that, I don't know. It's in the Bible somewhere. So yeah, so I invited her on, and then it just kind of took on a life of its own. I had the foundation of Catholic stuff to kind of say, I wanted to be laid back, I wanted to be, I don't have the time or the energy

to really prepare a lot for it. I'm not gonna read whole books in preparation. We're not gonna overthink themes. We're just gonna, we're gonna have an idea of what we wanna do. We'll alternate like we did on Catholic stuff. You have a topic, then I have a topic. So one of us kinda leads the course of the discussion

in a sense. We began with banter just by catching up with each other and things like that after hitting record. But it's become a thing after two and a half years or so that I don't think we would have planned that has its own little Easter eggs. And we've named our squirrels since we get distracted. And there's little things like, oh, we'll edit that out. No, we won't. That our listeners love.

So they'll send us swag where they put these phrases on it, you know, from things that have kind of come up naturally on the podcast. We have a committee of people that all that listen to every episode and from many different walks of life and aspects of the faith. And they, once a quarter, they tell us what they think about what the content and the banter and all these things. We have a nonprofit now that's come from it.

We wanna do pilgrimages. It's really become a beautiful, beautiful thing. It's called What God Is Not, Apophatic Theology. I'd say one of the greatest logos too, or greatest images for your podcast. It's a really great logo. We decided that, I love the apophatic, the negative theology aspects. We wanted to use, what's it called? Negative space in the logo. So it's the hand of a priest doing the blessing hand and the hand of God coming down and the way that the two

interact it makes a Byzantine cross in the negative space of their two hands. It's beautiful. And then has the burning bush behind it too. It is a, I think Mike Schwalm, who's an animator. I knew him when we were kid kids. He works for Disney and much of other animation studios. He did it for us for free. So pray for Mike and his family. And it's great. So but it really is it's become something that has been so so many people have been fed and encouraged by it in a way that as anybody will say, including you, Matt, like we you just can't anticipate that the spirit has truly worked in in our personalities and our baptism in our faith. And then he's taken that

and ran with it in the lives of people. It's really beautiful. Any thoughts? taken that and ran with it in the lives of people. It's really beautiful. Any thoughts? Yeah, I don't know. I think what Father Michael has said of it's just been like such a gift for our relationship. And it's a gift of, like I echo what Father Michael said earlier of,

to some degree, I know that our relationship is an exception. Like, it's rare, I think, that you can have the level of like fatherhood balanced out with friendship in the way that somehow over the last 12 years we've kind of figured out. And it's really a great gift. But I think that that gift is not just for us. It's it's to be shared. And so one of the things that people reach out about the most of how the podcast has helped them is is just seeing our relationship and like the beauty of the chaste love

that we have for one another and and the fruitfulness of his fatherhood, the fruitfulness of my motherhood shown through the podcast. And it really is just such a joy and to have the time with Father Michael, but also the many people that I've met through the podcast, either in person or over emails or whatever. It really is just an aspect of the fruitfulness of my vocation.

That was an unexpected gift. So I'm really grateful for it. It's remarkable how far and wide the podcast travel. So I was in London recently and I got stuck in there, stuck in London, because my plane was too long on the tarmac. And I texted my mate, George Farmer, and I said, hey, I'm in your crap country. Little town called London. And I had no idea that he was there as well.

I was like, me too. I'm like, let's get together for a cigar. So we did. And we went to this beautiful little church where the Latin mass is often offered. And I walked in there and just knelt before our lady and said a few prayers and on the way out got stopped by the two people who happened to glance in my direction. So hello to those of you who who did that but Yeah, and and this one girl was from Qatar and she said that she's got a group of people who listen to pints in Qatar

And could I say hello to them? So hello to those people in Qatar, but what a what a beautiful thing Lord Use all of this for your glory. Yeah very good Hey, why don't we offer a little prayer to anybody watching who has not consciously given their life to Jesus Christ? So maybe they were baptized and so of course they're a Christian, but maybe there are people right now who are watching, who are struggling and they're kind of stalking pints or stalking what God is not and they haven't yet kind of offered a prayer to our Lord to kind of give themselves

to Him. Would one of you feel comfortable leading that? I'll lead it and then can you give a blessing? Perfect. In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, Amen. Heavenly Father, thank you for the gift that you've given all of us to be here together, to have friendship, fellowship, to encounter you in one another. Thank you for the ways that you've inspired us to give our lives to you both directly and

through encountering your son through one another and through the beauty around us in the world. I ask that you send your Holy Spirit upon all those who are listening. Send your Holy Spirit upon all those that we are carrying within our hearts, Matt, Father Michael, Thursday, myself and all listeners. Grant them the grace to open themselves to you, to your will, to trust that you are a good father who desires to give good gifts to his children, to trust that in giving their lives fully to your son, they will reach complete fulfillment one day in union with you, your spirit and your Son. Grant them the grace to be vulnerable, particularly to be vulnerable to you and to your will.

Grant them a deep trust, the gift of faith, the gift of hope, the gift of love, that they may realize their identity, that they may be espoused to your son, that that spousal union may be fruitful and bring forth life. May our Lord bless you and give you everything you need, even the salvation of your soul, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen. Amen. Christ is risen.

Indeed he is risen. Thank you.