Pints With Aquinas - Mythologist Martin Shaw Tells Matt a Story | Last Call Ep. 10

Episode Date: April 16, 2026

It’s Last Call! New York Times bestselling author, mythographer and thinker, Martin Shaw is back to tell Matt Fradd (and you) a story. Put your feet up, close your eyes, and enjoy. Pints: Last Call Ep. 10 - - - 📚Martin Shaw, New York Times bestselling author: "Liturgies of the Wild: Myths That Make Us" is available here: https://a.co/d/0eiMLCcy - - - Today's Sponsors: Exodus 90: Download the Exodus 90 app to start your 14-Day free trial or visit https://Exodus90.com/matt to learn more. Hallow: Deepen your personal relationship with God today. Visit https://hallow.com/MattFradd to get 3 months free. St. Paul Center: Share your faith with others this Easter Season by joining the Easter Accompaniment Challenge. Sign up and become a member today at https://stpaulcenter.com/pints Seven Weeks Coffee: Save up to 25% with promo code 'PINTS' at https://sevenweekscoffee.com/PINTS - - - Become a Daily Wire Member and watch all of our content ad-free: ⁠⁠https://www.dailywire.com/subscribe⁠⁠ 📲 Download the free Daily Wire app today on iPhone, Android, Roku, Apple TV, Samsung, and more. - - - 📕 Get my newest book, Jesus Our Refuge, here: https://a.co/d/bDU0xLb 🍺 Want to Support Pints With Aquinas? 🍺 Get episodes a week early and join exclusive live streams with me! Become an annual supporter at 👉 ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mattfradd.locals.com/support⁠⁠⁠⁠ - - - 💻 Follow Me on Social Media: 📌 Facebook: https://facebook.com/mattfradd 📸 Instagram: https://instagram.com/mattfradd 𝕏 Twitter/X: ⁠⁠⁠https://twitter.com/Pints_W_Aquinas⁠⁠⁠ 🎵 TikTok: ⁠⁠⁠https://tiktok.com/@pintswithaquinas⁠⁠⁠ 📚 PWA Merch – ⁠⁠⁠https://dwplus.shop/MattFraddMerch⁠⁠ 👕 Grab your favorite PWA gear here: https://shop.pintswithaquinas.com - - - Privacy Policy: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.dailywire.com/privacy⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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go to homeserve.com. That's homeserv.com. Not available everywhere. Most plans range between $499 to $11.99 a month your first year. Terms apply on covered repairs. Today, welcome to Last Call. I am Matt Frad. Thank you for being here. We've got a real treat for you. Martin Shaw, who I've interviewed recently, is going to sit down with me and he is going to tell me a fairy tale. I love your retelling of stories. It is called the birth of Oshin. Finn immediately recognizes that he is in the presence of something extremely unusual.

He is just about to close his eyes and there's a knock. Martin, thank you for coming. We just spent some time speaking about fairy tales and myth and storytelling and attending to what is small so that our world can become larger. I'm going to stick with it. There's something in it, you know. And congratulations on your book being a New York Times bestseller. It's called Litages of the Wild, the myths that make us. And when you started writing this, if someone had us said, this might be a New York Times bestseller.

You would have laughed, maybe. I would have had no sense in my... I wouldn't have been able to be absorbed the idea. Right up until the moment, I found out that it had happened. It never would have occurred to me. I was very pleased with the way things were going already, but this is a whole other thing. It reminds me of Lars Ulrich.

I'm afraid I'd be very familiar with Lars Ulrich. So he said something about, like, if he had been told that they were going to become as big as they were, he said, I would have asked you what drugs you were on and would you mind sharing it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, so I love your retelling of stories. And I said, well, let's have you in here just to tell me a story.

I will. Which is a little weird, maybe. I'm going to fall asleep. I've got a pillow here. No, no. Yeah, if you fall asleep, I will take that as high praise. And when I ask you, you just say, I was doing dream work, Martin, for goodness sake. You're so unsophisticated.

So what I was thinking about, you and I were talking earlier, and you mentioned that you'd actually lived in Donna Gould. in Ireland for a period of time. So I want to tell a story in praise of your Irish years. So forgive me, you're making, you're just making something up? No, no, no, no, no. This would be a Bronze Age Irish story. Okay. That sort of came into polite society probably a few hundred years ago, but would have been told round the half fires and the campfires in Ireland for thousands of years. It is called the Birth of Oshin. Now, you see, if you saw that in a book,

you think it said Ossian. Never say that. Oshin. Oshin. That's the way to do it. So with your, with your permission, if you're happy, I'll tell you tell. I'm ready. Okay. It is said and said truly of the hero Finn McCall that if one day goes by without his name being mentioned, everything will come to an end. So I think it's a relief for everybody watching at this moment that you and I are talking about the great Irish hero, Finn McCall. How could I disqual? How could I describe him to you, Matt. How could I bring him vividly into the room? Well, this is how we will begin. It is said, if the rivers of this world were spun of pure silver, if the leaves on the trees were pure gold, Finn would have given them all away. He had great largesse of heart. His house was the

stranger's home. He was a deep poet. He was a phenomenal warrior. He was a very charismatic man. and around him he had a group called the Fiena who were hunters, warriors, poets, whatever kind of trouble they could get into, they got into. And the thing Finn really loved to do was hunt. And so where our story begins today, it is on a mountain. It's a mountain you can still visit. It is a mountain called Ben Bulbin just outside the town of Sligo. God preserve and keep it forever.

It's got to dusk. It has got to what we call where I come from, the dimpsy time, the time between dog and wolf, that's dusk, or cocktail hour for other people. And Finn has been hunting all day, but nothing has happened. Now, I have to tell you, wherever Finn goes, these two other fellows go with him. I will describe them to you. On his left is a man called Deermud of the Love Spot. Now, why is he called Deermot of the Love Spot? Because Deermud, as well as having freckles, which is very big in Irish myth, and Longer's hair. He has a mark on his face. And if you see that mark, you cannot help but fall entirely in love with Deermud. So bless his heart most of the time he keeps it hidden. Not always, but most of the time. He is, he is bold, he's quixotic, he's charismatic. So he is all that is good amongst Finn's men. But the guy on the other side is a very different character. His name is Conan Mowl. Crow, bald Conan. He's absolutely bald on the top of his enormous head. But if you were to journey, if you were to go on a safari

round the back of him, the curls Conan has on his back from here to here, thick sheet of black curls down to his rotund bottom. They're so thick and luxuriant that all the socks and vests of Finn's men were made from the curls on Conan Mowle's back. You have maybe met men like this, maybe you are a man like that. Who knows? So dusk has come. Don't overthink that image. There's Finn in the middle. We've got Dimm on one side. We've got Conan on the other. And there's Finn's two dogs. They are actually his nephew's under enchantment. That's an entirely different story. They could bran and choylan. And suddenly, they've spotted something. They run ahead over the long grasses, Finn and the warriors behind them. And a very strange thing happens because the dogs turn.

And whatever they have found, they are protecting it. They're not ripping it to shreds. Finn cautiously gets off the back of his chariot. He walks along through the long grasses, and he realizes that between the dogs, they're protecting a young doe, a female deer. Now, if that wasn't strange enough that the dogs would be protecting the animal, the animal then walks forward

and places her nose in the hands of Finn utterly without fear. Finn immediately recognizes that he is in the presence of something extremely unusual. Now, we would call that an encounter with fairy. The Irish may say, rather beautifully, this is what they call the people of the she, the people of the hill, the gentry, the other folk. Finn turns and he says, everybody on one knee, we are in the presence of something very mysterious,

and I place, it's a lovely phrase, druid bonds, some people call it Gesa or Geish, I place druid bonds on this animal that I shall protect it, because clearly it is vulnerable and it comes from some sort of. other dimension. So this has been a development. You know, the day is definitely accelerated. And they take the deer back and all night long, everybody's feasting and the young poets have something new to write about the emergence of this dough and that she's clearly fairy, but we don't know how. Well, anyway, it gets to the end of the day and Finn is bushed and he goes off to bed. Now, he is just about to close his eyes and there's a knock at the door of Finn's chamber.

Now, Finn, believe it or not, he's not used to Knox at that time of night, and he opens the door. Well, there she is. He will always call her the bright pulse of his whole understanding. He will call her the sky woman of the dawn. Standing in the doorway is the most beautiful woman he's ever seen. Eyes like the midnight and hair like the morning, that kind. He just says, I promise you, I'm all yours. Can I just have a moment to myself? He goes into a corner. pulls his heart out of his chest, rabbit, and he says, you could have told me this was going to happen, puts his heart back in. And he goes to the door and he says, Madam, it would be very unusual for a woman like yourself of your stature to be knocking at my door at this time of night. What can I do? And she says, well, look, my name is sive. Think of siding. My name is sive. And she said, I was that dear that you saw today. I was that doe. I am indeed a woman of the. she of the people of the hill. And he said, well, this is great news. I'm thrilled to meet you, but is there something that you want from me? And she said, well, let me give you the back story. I have reached an age when it's time for me to marry. And one by one, the men of the fairy have been coming to audition for their role as a potential husband. But she said, the problem is,

the problem is I long, long ago fell in love with someone from your world. And he said, well, how would that be? And she said, well, I never met him until recently, but she said, at night when the fairy gather around the fire and the old Shanaki, the storyteller, comes out and tells stories, the stories the fairies love to listen to are the stories of our lives, human beings. And she said, there was one fella. She said, oh, if the the rivers of the world were spun of pure silver. If the leaves on the trees were spun of pure gold, he would have given them all away. Now, Finn, who's not always the sharpest pencil in the pack? He's saying, who is this man? Where does he live? And she's saying he's quite near.

And he's saying, typically generous. He says, we will explore every traveller's camp, every desolate beach, every mountain top, until we find this extremely lucky man. And you can have him as your husband. And she said, okay, let me finish my story. things will get clear. She said, Finn, a man came to court me, very substantial man. They call him the dark man of the she. He's a great magician, very charismatic. And he spoke to me persuasively to

see if I would marry him and I refuse because my heart is with this other. And when that didn't work, he spoke angrily to me. That didn't work. And in the end, he produced a thin hazel wand He touched me on my shoulder and I became a deer. But I knew, I knew in my secret heart, if I could get to Ben Bolbin, if I could get to the hazy place, the dimsy time, the time between dog and wolf, the man I loved, I knew would be waiting for me there. And that is you, Finn, and I claim you. It's a beautiful thing to say to somebody.

I claim you, not I like you, or I've got a crush on you. I claim you. Now in Irish there's a lovely word when you have an up swelling of the heart. You say, I have a graw for you. I have a graw. And it's a way of kind of testing the waters with someone. It's not an outright declaration, but it's saying, I would have a bit of a grower for you. You know, I see your love spot.

And so I'm pleased to say that Finn, for the first time in his life, fell full in swoon with this woman. Sive and Finn. It is the kind of love we are all a little jealous of to. this day. Now, the problem was, from that moment onwards, he was barely visible. You know, he was off on picnics with her. They'd have a bare skin rug and a nice bottle of mead and they'd be out there under 100,000 stars on the old Green Hill. And they're just falling wild in love with each other in the beautiful old, romantic and chivalrous way. But unfortunately, as is often the way with great love stories. The rest of the kingdom is starting to sort of fall apart around it because all his

attention is on Sive. So something happens that actually cheers all the men up. The Vikings invade. They come in, in fact, to the Bay of Dublin. And finally, do you remember Conan Mal, big crowballed Conan? He goes up and he knocks on the lover's door and he says, Finn, rouse yourself because you've got to go out and protect Ireland. We've got to deal with the Vikings, you know. And that does sober Finn for a moment. But he is so sad to leave Sive. He says this, as the bards relate. Bright pulse of my whole understanding, skywoman of the dawn. You are more tuneful than the fiddle. You are a ship in full sail on a misless wave. You were whiter than the swan on the pool. That night at the door when I saw you, I thought the moon herself had fallen into a bed of wild flowers and was singing an old tune.

I had waited my whole life to hear. You are my great love. And they nuzzled, you know, almost like animals nuzzle each other. And she said, I will wait for you because I know you're in vulnerability. You could be killed in this battle. So she said, I will wait on the kind of the parapet so you can see me across the grasses. and I will be wrapped in your furs. I'll be wrapped in your cloak.

You are my beloved, you know. I will be there all night waking for you to come back from this battle. And he kissed Sive again and he left. Now, the fiener, when they fought, there was a kind of music in it. They would often sing. They often had flowers wrapped around their weapons. And really, they wanted to feast. They didn't want to fight, you know.

And the Vikings were there, and the Vikings are considerable. but I'm pleased to say, just for once, my Scandinavian friends, the Irish prevailed. And very soon the Vikings were leaving on their ships and they said to themselves, we'll get our revenge in about 1800 years with something called IKEA. We'll get our revenge. Let's go back to England. Brothers, Christ is risen. Indeed, he has risen.

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this is a concrete way to invite the risen Christ into all of that. The idea is that he wants to meet us where we are and lead us deeper into joy. St. Paul says our trials embraced in faith prepare us for an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison And that's exactly what this Easter season challenge led by Dr. Jared Stout and Father Jonathan Meyer is all about. Join the Exodus 90 Brotherhood today to live out the joy of Easter through the Weight of Glory challenge. Download the Exodus 90 app to start your 14-day free trial or visit Exodus 90.com slash Matt to learn more. That's Exodus 90.com slash Matt. The Weight of Glory Challenge runs throughout the Easter season. Download the app today and become the man God created you to be.

This episode is sponsored by Hello. You know, most of us say we want to pray more, but if we're honest, we end up getting distracted and bored and we forget, maybe. We love God in theory, that is, but in practice, we scroll maybe more than we pray. And that's why I'm grateful to hallow. It's the number one prayer and meditation app that's 100% Catholic. That actually helps you to build a real daily habit of prayer. Right now, we're in the Easter season, which means the church is celebrating the fact that Jesus is alive and has conquered death. It's a pretty good time to let the reality that reality move from an idea on your head to a relationship in our heart. On hello, you'll find guided meditations, the rosary, daily gospel reflections, the examine and quiet, simple, contemplative prayers when you're exhausted and don't have any words. You can put it on in the car, or while you're going on a walk before bed, and let the risen Christ speak through scripture at any time of the day. I was actually having trouble getting to sleep the other night, and I played the beautiful, has 20 mysteries of the rosary.

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Hello.com slash Matt Frad. Now, all the lads have gathered because there's going to be a feast. And Finn, though, is so determined he wants to be back with his beloved, back with Sive. And Conan Mal says something that we should all say to our friends. When he realizes Finn is going to leave, he says, Finn, what good is a feast without Finn? God, there's nothing more good is a feast without Matt. This is nonsense. This is nonsense. That is lovely way of speaking, generous way of speaking, you know.

But he does leave, and he leaves Deemot of the Love Spot. You know, whenever we talk about things we love, that's when our love spot starts to show. That's when we start to see each other. We become gorgeous. We can all become gorgeous by talking about what we love. All night, Finn is travelling home. He's on his chariot. The hounds, Bran and Shalana with him. It's just at dawn. The sky is moving from really dark into those kind of beautiful pinks and purples. And he can see up ahead the parapet. But she's not there. Sive is not there.

He's so panicked. He jumps off the back of the chariot. He runs faster than the horses. He runs into the settlement. He grabs his servant. There's a man called Cronin the buzzer. And he says, Cronin, where is she? Where is the bright pulse of my whole understanding?

Cronin is white, man. He's just white. And he says this. All night she was waiting for you, wrapped in your furs. And when we called her down, to go to bed, she said, no, I want to greet the father of my unborn child. I want to greet the father of my unborn child. And just before dawn, it seemed you had returned. We all saw you, we saw the chariot and the horses. We saw Brown and Shoylan, but we knew you couldn't have

got back from Dublin yet. It didn't make sense. And we knew something was up, but we couldn't stop but she slipped through her. She ran through the long grasses towards you. She opened her arms towards you. Hugh opened your cloak to her, and just as she entered your arms, you produced a thin hazel wand, and you touched her on the shoulder,

and she became a deer. And she and the hounds, and you and the chariot just disappeared into the long grasses. Finn, I am so, so sorry, man, I'm so sorry, I know how much you loved her. And Finn went to his chamber, and for two days and for two nights he was not seen. The old image in Irish myth for this is this. Next to every chamber of joy, there's another room. That room is filled with crow feathers.

And at some point it is the business of love that you have to lie in those feathers. That room, you know, that's the other side of the coin of all the joy. It's the appropriate grief. And so he lay there, and I tell you, when he came out, he had what we call the beard snow on the mountain. He had snow in the mountain. He was different. And you can imagine Finn is not a man who's just going to let this go. So he took, many of the fina came with him and they started to search for Sive. and they did go to Ben Bolbin and the travellers' camps and the lonely places and the desolate places and the beaches. They went everywhere looking for her. But as it turned into months, people realised Finn was never going to quit.

And one by one, his dear friends started to leave. But the reality was Finn was a man of such quality. No one had the gumption to do it to his face. You couldn't. You couldn't. So they'd slip away at night. They'd slip away at night. And gradually one day Finn woke up in the camp and it was just him.

It was just him. They'd even take in the dogs. It's just Finn. For six years, Finn continues to search. They say during this time, this is just like a fairy tale. He did not wipe the tears from his eyes. He did not cut his hair or his beard. They say he made an altar in his heart for the bird that had flown away.

an altar in his heart for the bird that had flown away. It's very unfashionable these days, that kind of love. But he looked and he looked and he looked and he searched and he couldn't find her. Soon he doesn't look at all like the hero from the beginning of the story. He's just a strange little man next to a strange little fire. Now, if you can imagine back at the camp where our story originally began, years have passed since anybody has seen him. And there's a whole new cadre of warriors who've never met Finn McCall.

He is a mystery to them. He's a legend to them. And one night in the dining hall, as it were, there's old Conan Mowl and there's Deimot of the Love Spot. They hear some of the younger guys saying, we don't think he ever could have been half of what people say about him. And they're rude about their old captain. And I'm pleased to say, as all good friends should, you should provide a course corrective

when you hear that nonsense about people that you love. You should do that. And they did. And everything got straightened out. But at that moment, absolute remorse floods through Conan and Deerment. And they said, what are we doing? What are we doing here? Feasting with children where our dear captain is out in the mists, in his sorrow, on his own. We would, will never be on the wrong side again. You know, we will never be on the wrong side again. So they went out, and I'm pleased to say they found him. And the place they found Finn was where our story began. It began on Ben Bolbin, on that wild mountain, where I have told this very story to nobody, just me and the mountain. And they said to him, look, we know you won't come

back to the camp, but would you go hunting with us? We bought the dogs, and he loves the dogs. Oh, he loves the dogs. So he says, yeah, we'll go hunting. It gets to the dimpsy time, the time between dog and wolf. They can see something up ahead. They're padding over the dark grasses. Finn is behind them. Could it be?

Could it be? Could it be? The dogs turn. They're protecting something. But it's not a deer. It's a little boy. It's a little boy. It's like, one of yours.

You know, it's this little fellow with this wild bush of curls. and he sees Finn and Fee looks at him and the boy with no fear whatsoever just walks up to Finn and puts his little hand in Finn's big hands and Finn knows I want to greet the father of my unborn child this is Sive's son somehow this is his son

and all the grief that was in Finn's heart at that moment went away and all the joy that is in this world that is appropriate for us to have flooded in. So this boy, he took home with him. You can imagine these two were just glued. They were just glued. They just sat like mammal warmth, mammal warm. Now, the boy couldn't speak.

He spoke, how could I say this? He spoke a strange antlered language. Think of his mum. He spoke a strange antler language. But after a while, he learned our language. while he learned Irish. And Finn managed to find out the story. And he said, well, you know, how did you, how did you even get there? And he said, well, my mum, all I know is I was born in the land of the fairy, but my mum always said my dad was from this world, but we were always being pursued by the dark

man of the she. And she said to me, if ever he touches me with a hazel wand and I become a deer again, you were to get to the hazy place of Ben Bolbin and you will find. your father, just trust me, you will find your father. And that is what happened, and I find myself with you now, Dad. And so Finn held his boy's hands, and he gave him a beautiful name. He gave him the name Oshin, which means little dear. Now, Oshin turned out to be an even greater poet than his father. There are different endings to this story. Some people say that Sive and Finn were never reunited, but I find that little harsh. I have heard other versions where at some point towards the end actually of Finn's life, towards the twilight time, he met her again.

He met her when they were reunited. But what I can tell you is the only reason we know this story is a sheen at the very end of the age of myth and the very beginning of the age of of Christianity, he met St. Patrick on a beach. And even St. Patrick, as we call him, dear Stelide Paddy of the many conversions, even Patrick couldn't waste the opportunity of saying, tell me the stories of your father. And as an old man, he was 300 years old, and he still spoke with that strange antler tongue. He said, I will tell you of my father, if the rivers of the world, was spun of pure silver. If the leaves on the trees were pure gold,

my father would have given them all away. That's your story. Thank you. Feels almost indecent to speak after that, so I won't. Thanks. All right. Good. I'll leave it at that.

Good. Yeah. Yeah, that was the one that came today. That's a beautiful thing, isn't it? And in a book, it's like five sentences. This is what you need to do is to curate these things, loving them. Tell them to your children or your animals or somebody. And they just get purchasing you. And they bang up against your own sorrows and your own beauty. And you're to not be afraid of that. Never be afraid of that. Just lean into it. This episode is sponsored by the St. Paul Center. We Catholics have loads of Lent programs, don't we? And thank God for them. They help us grow closer to the Lord throughout the Lenton season. But what are we supposed to do throughout the 50 days of Easter, which is also a season? Well, like the women of disciples of Matthew 28, we're cool to announce the joyful news of the Lord's resurrection and to accompany others on their journey with the risen Lord. The Easter season, as I say, is a season. And it's very important, I think, that we live it out appropriately. So this Easter season, how do you walk alongside others, confident that together you're drawing closer to our risen Lord? St. Paul Center invites you to join Father Boniface Hicks, the Mercederian Sisters and their world-renowned theologians for a unique Easter challenge.

Over these 50 days, you'll learn the art of spiritual accompaniment by Father Bonavis Hicks, renowned author and spiritual director. You'll discover the biblical foundations of spiritual accompaniment with the St. Paul Center's theological and biblical experts, and you'll witness a transformative power of spiritual companionship through the testimony of the Mercederian sisters. This challenge combines practical insight, theological expertise, and first-hand experience. Our faith is never truly understood unless it's shared. Share your faith with others this Easter season by joining the Easter Accompanement Challenge. Join the challenge by visiting St. Paul's Centre.com slash pints and becoming a member today. So I love coffee.

Look at me. I'm using the word love. I love coffee and we've tried a lot of coffee over the years. Our sponsor today is seven weeks coffee and it's the one that my wife and I have landed on. Honestly, if you open up the cabinets above our espresso machine, it's just stuffed with seven-week coffee espresso. And it's not just great coffee. It's a brand built around values that we take seriously. Seven weeks coffee is America's pro-life coffee company on a mission to fund the pro-life movement, one cup of coffee at a time.

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It's mold-free, pesticide-free, shade-grown and low acid, and it's organically farmed. truly checks all the boxes. Now, when I first heard about seven weeks coffee, I thought, okay, I'm open to trying it, but I'm not going to keep buying coffee just because it has a great cause if the coffee's not excellent. You know, hand to my heart, it is actually excellent, and we really love it in the frat household. So, go to seven weeks coffee.com and save 15% forever when you subscribe. Plus, get a free gift with your order, and exclusively for my listeners, use code pints for an extra 10% off your first order. That's a 25% total savings on your first order plus a free gift.

Just use code pints at checkout. And of course, I had forgotten, of course, that it's only because Patrick writes these stories down that we know them. So isn't that a lovely ending? Suddenly, at the moment, that's like a little burst of Catholic light right at the end. Well, thank you for asking me to do that. I appreciate it. I'm honored. I've had no idea how that could have.

have worked. I don't think I've ever done this before in this kind of setting. I'm honored by it. I mean, if people want to get into fairy tales, what maybe one book or place you would point them to? For the Irish material, look at WB8, Lady Gregory, and also the great poet Seamus Heaney, his wife, Marie Heaney, wrote a phenomenal book called Over Nine Waves, Over Nine Waves. That'll be a way in for you. And if you want very dynamic fairy tales, go to Russia. All right. Thank you. Thank you to everybody who's watching.

Maybe put us in the comments below, tell us, this is always awkward, but hello, tell us below your favorite fairy tale. Thank you for being here. God bless. Yeah, thanks. All right. Thank you, Matt. Onina home is full of surprises. Some wonderful, some.

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