Pints With Aquinas - OPPOSITE DAY!? Fr. Pine Interviews Matt!

Episode Date: July 25, 2024

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We're delighted to be joined here by Matt Fradd who hails from Australia, South Australia, and he was working in, oh yeah perfect, here we go. And he was working as a lab tech in a copper mine when he felt drawn to serve the Lord Jesus as a net missionary. So first in Canada and then in Ireland. And it was in Ireland that he met his beautiful wife and they found their way to the United States where he worked for Cathay Cancer in San Diego for a time and then bopped over to the East Coast, best coast to Atlanta area for a time. That's meant to offend some of you.

And then now finds himself in Steubenville, Ohio, not far from the Franciscan University of Steubenville. And he hosts a podcast that everyone here knows, except for the people who don't. And I don't mean to offend you. So cheers. It's called Ponce of the Coinas. So in that spirit, we are again, delighted to welcome you here to Washington, DC.

Again, let's go, baby. I feel like you're... Is this supposed to be like this? I try to talk over a microphone so that way when people don't understand what I say, I can blame it on the tech. When truth be told, it's all my fault. So maybe here we are having a podcast. I think 20 years ago people just... Having a podcast. Podcasting, having a podcast. I think 20 years ago people just-

Having a podcast. Podcasting, doing a podcast, whatever the appropriate verb is. But I think up until 20 years ago people just had conversations. Now we need to monetize them. So how do you account for that? How do you account for the podcast explosion? Why are people so excited about the medium? Yeah. When I started Pines with Aquinas back in 2016, I think I could put name on one hand, the amount of Catholic podcasts I knew that were out there. And now there are more podcasts

than people. Which is great, I guess. I think that one of the reasons people sometimes like to listen to a long form podcast podcast and say an audiobook is they enjoy Listening to people think through things, you know Because if you wanted their crystallized thought you would presumably listen to the book that they wrote that editors went through But there's something nice and candid about two people Talking and thinking things through and saying things in a clumsy way and trying to arrive at something articulate That's that's why I like it. It feels more honest. Is there like, it seems like there's a non-authoritative authority to the guy who is willing to think through a thing, to stumble through a thing, and then to offer his thoughts on it. I mean,

people seem to be really loyal to the host of the podcast that they listen to. How do you, I don't know, how do you account for that when it's them kind of working through what it is that they think? Yeah I think most of the success of Bites of the Coilness has to do with guests because they're the ones really you know exploring the things they know a lot about and I'm I see my job is throwing logs on a fire to keep them going. Okay in this image your guests are what? They are burning in the hearth. Good point. It's the fuel for the intellect. Ah yeah, okay. Okay, for spiritual fuel. So here we go, do you think the podcasts are a good

vehicle for evangelization or a workable vehicle for evangelization? I mean, every three months I have a crisis and decide I'm going to quit. And during those times, I tend to get pretty cynical about everything in the world. And the times that I have sort of expressed publicly on my podcast that, hey, you know what? Like just unsubscribe and read a book

like you would be much better off just Drink bourbon with your friend on the porch, you know, just read poetry together. You're in a much better spot I've said that a couple of times I think when I'm gone through my little cynical phases but I've had people kind of like lovingly rebuke me and they'll say I actually came to the faith because I was listening to your show or something like that and so you know if you want to take people at their word okay well that's pretty that's pretty great I don't I don't get it but that's great and yeah so I'm I do think it can be an avenue

for evangelization. Yeah, and one of the first things I did after starting Pines was I wrote to over 200 convents around the world and begged their prayers. And I think that podcasts can be funny, they can be emotional, they can be moving, they can be interesting, but sitcoms can be those things and they don't convert hearts. So I truly try to say Lord Jesus Christ like use this stuff as even even the bad stuff use that as manure for the growth of others and just

try to entrust it to him. Okay so in your podcast you're the conceded that the conversation partner is st. Thomas Aquinas. Obviously they have conversations with a lot of people, but it's Pines with Aquinas. So what do you think, I mean this is like, I'm asking about my older brother, it's like what do you think about St. Thomas Aquinas? But what makes St. Thomas a good conversation partner? Why not like Pines with Dostoevsky? Well it may as well be at this point. When I started Pines with Aquinas, it was to get more credit for my master's degree. I actually released like 10 before even advertising it because I had a job at the time and I didn't know if I should be doing this or not.

Then what would happen is I would go to my job, I'd go to these shows where we would have booths at different events and people would come up and they'd only want to talk about pines with a coinist, so that was interesting. But back then I would just take an article and then reflect on it. But obviously we don't do that anymore, so it kind of evolved much to the chagrin of many. But I now tend to do that idea more on my locals account, where we do these morning laid back kind of, we call it morning coffee podcasts, where we'll look at an article,

we'll look at something Thomas says, or some other saint says. But I don't know, I guess, so I had Pines with Aquinas, and then I had the Matt Fradd Show, brilliantly named. And then I decided, well, you know, like Aquinas, this is getting too hard to have two brands here and in my interviews I often talk about philosophy and theology and even Aquinas so you know what I'll just call the

whole thing pints with Aquinas so what do I think of Aquinas? Yeah I've said before that whereas Augustine is beautiful like a garden, Thomas is beautiful like a game board instruction manual. And there is real beauty to that. Not a word is wasted. What you don't want in an instruction manual for a board game is ambiguity, like how you feel. Any of that, I just, I want to know exactly what it is I need to know.

And when you read Aquinas, that's what you get. He says in one page what modern writers can say in maybe a book. And so I really like that. He's very, I like how clear he is. I enjoy reading him for fun. He covers almost every topic imaginable. Even ones that I wouldn't even say publicly,

because they're quite sensitive. I like the board game image too, because usually when you open up a board game, there's like four or six of you gathered around. And one person says he remembers, but he doesn't quite remember. And another guy thinks that he can infer the rest of the rules on the basis of what he knows

about the gaming world writ large. And then there's that like kind of strong silent type who's in the corner, you know, with the instructions methodically reading for 12 minutes. And in the course of those 12 minutes when the five other persons have not come to a conclusion he's actually gotten the wisdom and then he comes in and makes a strong respondio de gendem quote. And then from that point on you know the game that you're playing. This would also be a good analogy for the infighting amongst Dominicans. Yeah I suppose so. Yeah I'll work on that in the background. I'll ask

you a question the answer of which I don't care about and then what I'll be actually doing is working on this image simultaneously. Okay so let's stick with St. Thomas for a little bit. What's, I mean, a lot of people will read St. Thomas and they'll say like, hey, cool, but like how does this translate? I think 21st century, we're very practical, we're very pragmatic, we wanna know what we can do

with a particular teaching or how a particular teaching like translates to life. Have you had that experience with the teaching of St. Thomas where you felt this really,, or you felt personally its application or its implications? A hundred. Yeah, a lot. I think it was last August or the August before, sometimes I'll take a month off of the internet, and so I'm just like walking around reading my big book. I was reading somewhere in the Summa about friendliness or affability, the virtue of affability, right?

Because I tend to be quite introverted and sometimes don't know how to navigate one-on-one situations. I feel awkward. My wife is an extrovert in the extreme. When she leaves a party, she's worried they won't have fun. And I have to reassure her, they'll be fine. Whereas me as an extrovert, I love going to the bathroom. As an introvert.

I love going to a bathroom and only the introverts will get this. You shut the door and it's just, here's my space. And you press that little lock in and you hope it has a satisfying click because if it doesn't, you're terrified for the rest of the bowel movement. If it has the click and the slippity slide, I'm in heaven. That's where I like to hang out and party.

Anyway, so I guess we tend to put lipstick on a pig when we consider our own vices. Like, well, I'm just like this because of this or that and and I think I've in the past said things like well You know, like I I just like to be real with people I'm not gonna put on a front and this kind of stuff and here it is I'm reading Aquinas on affability saying like yeah well You should put on a front because people have to live with you and actually like human human like communities

Wouldn't work if people just acted exactly how they felt so like grow up a little bit so that was okay wow I have to actually be friendly and so there he was like answering one of my objections that I would give and in other places you know like when he talks about the five remedies for sorrow and he talks about tears and groaning he says what my mother said when I was five. You know, he says something like, because pain feels all the worst when we keep it shut up inside. Something like that.

I'm like, oh my gosh, that's Debbie Fradd. You know? Yeah. That's a beautiful thing to say, and when he says it, like, oh, it must be, it's kind of like, yeah, well, you go, this must be true. It's not just something my mom said. There must be some truth to this. So yeah, he's, yeah.

Maybe picking up on remedies for sorrow. One of the other things that he mentions is like the fellowship or the conversation of friends. Maybe that's something to, I don't know if you want to explore that when it comes to podcasts. I mean, like, not to be overly dramatic, but it's the 21st century and things are kind of dire

and I think a lot of us feel sad. There's a way in which being part of a podcast community can alleviate some of that or draw you out of your sadness and into a conversation that's bigger than the one that you can have with yourself. Yeah, I think that's probably true. I think, I like to think of Pines with Aquinas as spiritual Dramadine for a seasick church. So the hope is that people can listen

and calm down a little bit and not rush to one error or the other. And so hearing conversations in the context of friendship, it's really interesting, isn't it? Because you and I were hanging out last night and if I had said something that was too brazen or that you disagreed with, you wouldn't have fired back at me.

Or you would have went, well hang on, what do you mean? And then I would have had a chance to try to maybe soften what I said. And then we may have disagreed at the end, but it would all be in the context of friendship. And I think one thing that we lose on the internet is, you know, you listen to yourself or me or somebody else and you might disagree with them, but it's not in the context of friendship if you don't know the person. And so it seems like consequently we have a whole whole all these different people going nuclear on each other whereas they would never do that if they were having a coffee together or something and so I do like listening to conversations in the context of friendship I think you know

even because even when I disagree with my guests right or they disagree with me we push back a little bit it hopefully doesn't get nasty. Man have you checked out Exodus 90 lately? If you've heard of Exodus 90 before you're probably thinking of cold showers on Lent, but the Exodus 90 app offers so much more. It's a daily companion to help you grow closer to God and to become the man you wanna be. This summer, I'm following along with the app's daily scriptures, reflections, and prayers.

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for a 14-day free trial to the Exodus 90 app and to learn more about St. Michael's Lent. That's Exodus90.com slash Matt to join us for St. Michael's Lent starting August 15. I do like listening to conversations in the context of friendship. I think, you know, because even when I disagree with my guests, right, or they disagree with me,

or we push back a little bit, it hopefully doesn't get nasty. Yeah. Yeah, and you, I mean, for a while there, you were having debates on your channel. You still have debates with some frequency, but it seems like the bread and butter is conversations with people of sufficiently like mind

to actually get somewhere. Yeah. You know, because if people don't really share anything at all then it's just sound and fury signifying nothing. Do you feel like, I mean, you were talking about one of your close friends whom you've had on the podcast a couple times recently, was it John Henry Spann? Yeah.

Has like, has the podcast been for you an occasion of growth and friendship? With people who are already my friends? People who are already your friends, people who become your friends as a fruit of or maybe not. Yeah, no, I would say so. I wouldn't say that like a conversation while being filmed is adding anything to our friendship But it's a nice like it's kind of it's a nice time to put your phone down Like I got to chat with Jordan Peterson for two hours and 45 minutes and neither and both of us had to turn our phones off Like I got to chat with Jordan Peterson for two hours and 45 minutes and neither and both of us had to turn our phones off

You imagine me being like hi, you don't know me But I was wondering if we could chat for three hours, but you have to turn your phone off and give me all your attention You know, so that's that's kind of a nice nice thing. Yeah And so like one thing when it comes to podcasts or when it comes to life I'm realizing how difficult it is to be the guest. I know, it's great. Because I'm in your seat all the time. I'm much more comfortable. No, you have a gift of actually answering a question, whereas what I do is I answer around a question for seven minutes. So it makes it easy on you because you're like, wow, thought's inspired by something

like what I said. And it lasts for a while. Okay. So I don't remember what I was going to say. But apropos of podcasts. Okay, so I don't remember what I was going to say, but Apropos podcast there's a way in which podcasts can be kind of I don't schizophrenics too strong a word But like they I mean all over the place. Yeah, they can be kind of scatty. It's like wow Let's talk about this really silly thing. I'm gonna tell you my seven favorite nor McDonald jokes and then over here It's like this is the thing that I've been thinking about and desiring about for the past however

Long and it's tearing me to pieces and now all of the sudden we're just Bearing it. I'm wondering like yeah I think that a lot of people come to a podcast and they're like, yeah our lives equal parts whimsy and Tragedy and we're just trying to kind of make sense of them and then you come into a podcast situation and it seems to reflect That to a certain degree or extent like do podcasts make us more Scatty or are they actually helping to focus us or train us like I just wonder what podcasts are doing to us I'm not sure yeah, I guess it depends on the person. Maybe they go for it for entertainment. Maybe they go for education I think it's probably seriously problematic to walk around all day long with somebody else's voice in your head

Like those random thoughts that we have while we're doing the dishes or taking the dog for a walk, like they're probably important. And when we drown them out with somebody else's voice constantly, I don't think that's a good thing. One thing I noticed when I would do this internet fast is I would actually crave entertainment. And I remember at the end of the day saying to my wife, like, can we like we watch a movie and I was really excited about it but when I'm living in internet land I don't feel that way because I am too often looking at this or scrolling over here or looking at this stupid video or and then I just sort of feel burnt out almost like you've been eating all day and of course so of course you don't want to have a meal at the end of the day

you've just been packing it in that didn't answer your question. No that begins to answer my question. Maybe then we can think about virtues of an internet age. Because a lot of people, especially priests, will get in the pulpit and they'll be like, the Facebook is killing us. But something I think that you bring in the conversation is that you have a sympathy with the internet.

It's pretty cool and it also can do cool stuff and people profit or benefit as a result. And yet, nevertheless's pretty cool and it also can do cool stuff and people profit or benefit as a result. And yet, nevertheless, you're critical of certain things that happen in our minds and hearts when we become undisciplined consumers of internet content. If you were to identify virtues of the digital age or virtues of a Christian trying to live well in a digital age, what might you pick out? I don't know if I have anything that helpful to say.

I'm better at just pointing at the problem and then leave it to smarter minds like yourself to identify the solution. But yeah, I'm really concerned that, you know, our use of the internet doesn't differ from the heathen and the atheist, except that we try not to look at porn. Like that's it. That's really problematic. That's why I'm also bothered

by how I use money because I think, oh surely I should be using money different to like the atheist and the heathen. Well, I tithe. Well, so do they. They donate to things that they think are worth donating to. Oh dear, I'm worried. So maybe that's the first step is to be worried. Worried that you are actually being dominated by your phone. And I think honestly today if someone's like, it's not a problem for me, either you've got superpowers or you're deluding yourself. That I think often the phone is not smart. I don't mean smarter, but it acts as if it's smarter than us. It's acting on us constantly.

And it's breaking apart our trains of thought and interrupting our family life and our conversations. And I think people should be as ashamed to check their phone in front of me as if they just farted. And if you're going to check your phone in front of me, like you should probably go to the bathroom and do it and think. I would like to see that kind of shame

installed in Catholic communities. Because it's like, you know, there'll be times I'll be driving with my wife and she's checking her phone. She doesn't check it any more than I do anything, but I would be like, can we chat for a bit? And then you're like, oh gosh, now I've got to be entertaining somehow

to keep, you know, well, what do you want to chat about? Well, I just, you know, before the phone, we would just actually just sit together and find things to talk about. So yeah, I don't know. I don't know if that means like what I tend to do, there's all different hacks around it, but you could block your app store,

give it to a friend, have them lock it, delete the apps that access the internet, that could be one way around it. But I think you've got to find a way to struggle. Like having an internet Sabbath, you know. Leave your phone and your computer in the office on Friday night and pick it up Monday morning, it's something I'll do often. Even just to show yourself how difficult it is. Maybe that's like, I think that a lot of people are telling stories on the internet of success, you know, like gal wakes up, spends the next 42 minutes doing her makeup and then snaps a shot like, oh, woke up like this. Like just trying to look put together, trying to look awesome, trying to project strength. Like the way that you just described that, it sounds like failing is maybe part of succeeding

or that we need to retool what we mean by failing. It's like you might not be good at keeping distance from your phone or from your computer, but even experiencing that tension, experiencing that failure, is itself part of a story of success? I think one of the reasons we don't like setting ourselves a rule of prayer or an exercise regiment or what I will and won't be eating is because as soon as you attempt to do something,

you can now fail. If you don't attempt to do anything, then you just drift along, never having that experience of failure. So in a way, failure is a sign to yourself that you're aiming at something. I know that sounds very psychological, but it's kind of true, you know?

Like, if I wanna, you know, not be impatient with my kids and I wanna love them and I wanna take them on a coffee date today and I wanna hang out with them, if I find that I'm neglecting them, I feel that I feel that failure and that's a sign that I was actually aiming at something good so let's I mean let's pursue that apropos like commitment or engagement it seems like the internet is a place where you don't really actually have to commit to anything it's like oh

this newspaper is behind a paywall so I'll just view it in an incognito tab. Or like, oh. Does that work? For some, yeah. Not that I would know. You're a poor friar. Or other like things. I won't give more examples as they would betray further knowledge.

But it's a place where you can just flit here and there, you can bop here and there. What are ways in which to encourage like actual commitment, actual engagement even whilst using a medium that doesn't require that of us? Well I just find that I barely read books when I'm in internet land. Internet land is my name for when I'm not seriously shutting down access to the internet. It's like when I'm in that space you're talking to somebody who probably has serious ADD and all sorts of issues. Maybe these people are much more disciplined than I am, but I just find I can't even really think.

I'm just in like a haze. So for me, I find that when I put significant restraints on the internet, that's when like my head clears up and then I can actually commit to reading and things like that. But I find that I can't actually commit to reading on a website. I get distracted. The adverts are glaring at you. It's like I'm not even in a place to do it. I mean, there's as much of a place to think seriously on an internet blog as people are to have arguments on Twitter. That's not what Twitter is designed for. People are just yelling on Twitter. They're not arguing, you know, social media. What's the difference between yelling and arguing?

Well, arguing is, you know this, it's when you give reasons to think something's true or not true. And you might be doing that when you're yelling, but you might not be. It's a Venn diagram. Okay, so maybe then thinking beyond the medium and thinking about the reality. Ultimately, we pass through a medium to get to the goods like we get we want to lay hold of something or someone We won't actually spend our life in meaningful fashion rather than just having it drained from our veins until such time as we expire And it seems like people come to the Christian space the Catholic space on the internet to find that reality What are ways? I don't know come to the Christian space, the Catholic space on the internet to find that reality.

What are ways, I don't know, maybe we could just start, like what are ways in which maybe in the last couple months you've laid hold of something. You were just talking about your marriage and, you know, like beautiful things or beautiful ways in which you've experienced the mercy of God as of late. What are, yeah, speak an encouraging word. I'm just bleh. Okay. Well, I mean, I don't want to downplay the value of podcasts and it might seem like I've been doing that because it is being quite remarkable how people find pints with a quietness and then how they just listen to a lot of really great conversations with really great people and then find

themselves sort of being broadened to the orbit of Catholicism as it were like I think you pointed this out right in? In this last month, I got to interview a wide range of people. Cardinal Burke, Jordan Peterson, Detransitioner, Chloe Cole. Like what a random collection of people here. So I do think it's helpful. I do think when people aren't just listening to it to distract themselves, but they're like, they, yeah, it can be comforting. Like I know when I interviewed Chloe,

for those who don't know, Chloe presented as male, I think by the time she was 12, if memory serves, and then she had a chest mutilated, I think about the age of 16 or 17, and took a lot of courage, I think, to kind of stand up against that and say this is ridiculous, men can't be women and women can't be men and I can't believe that this has happened to me.

She was such a beautiful young woman but it really helped me sort of love people who have gender identity disorder because it's so difficult sometimes to distinguish the propaganda from evil forces shoving it in your face and this beautiful individual in front of me who was like kind of a tomboy and like like guys rather than girls you know like like hang hanging out with guys and then her body starts developing and she's nervous and then she goes on tik-tok and then encounters all sorts of insanity so it just helped me. I was like, oh my gosh, like, God, forgive me.

Forgive me for all the ways that I have blurred propaganda with individual in front of me at Starbucks. You know, like, forgive me, Lord, that I didn't see them as son or daughter that you died for. So yeah. What did I say to you about mercy? Or my wife wife you said? You said many things, but I'll ask another question.

We'll run our way. Maybe, maybe, unrelatedly. So it seems like the 21st century is a difficult time in which to pay attention. I mean, it's just like loud and there are lots of things going past you on a six lane road and there are a lot of people advertising and it's gotten very good and they're very attentive to what you have searched for in the past, that's what you might purchase in the future

and so you just feel yourself drawn in every direction. But it seems like to have that kind of conversation, to have that kind of encounter with Chloe, you need to set your phones aside, you need to lock yourself in like a seventh story office in Steubenville, Ohio You know, whatever it is. Is it the same? Okay. Yeah, great And actually like sit across from another human being what are ways?

So one of the things that's beautiful about podcasts is it affords the host the opportunity to sit across it affords the listener the Opportunity to sit across maybe more broadly like where places here now in the 21st century where he can sit across from another person, where we can have that type of conversation. Where? Where? Where? How? I mean... Yeah, well I'll say where and how, but before I do that I would say that it is so nice because 15, 20 years ago there was Catholic sound bites on Catholic radio, you know, so like

he's the guy on contraception and this is the guy on like, papal infallibility and they had their perfectly crafted 3 to 10 minute response. And that's not a knock on them, I'm actually saying it was perfectly crafted and they were right to execute it in that way. But what was nice about long forms is it breaks people out of that. You can't exist just giving me your three minute sound bites if we're going to do a conversation for three hours. So I feel like it draws out more of the humanity. It gets people to be imperfect, which is what I like. Now, how can people sit across from each other? Yeah, I mean, this is one of the reasons I enjoy cigars. And one of the reasons, if cigars and one of the reasons if cigars are bad for you this is one of the reasons they're good for you is it involves you and me lighting up this

commitment like here's a commitment now this is going to take me an hour and a half maybe or an hour you know and we're committed you know and that's nice I think that's it kind of slows us down to a sort of human tempo where we can engage each other I own a cigar lounge in Steubenville, Ohio We from the beginning we refuse to have electronic music or televisions and we're this close to even getting rid of Wi-Fi and We're even going to do another thing where we'll give you like $5 discount if you leave your phone up the front Just go back and sit and read a book, that kind of stuff.

But it's been beautiful to go back there and just see people conversing and talking. Those sorts of things are good. When I lived in Atlanta, my wife and I would do a potluck, a monthly potluck at our house where we would invite everybody, just show up. And we had like 200 people show up at our house one day. And everyone had to bring something to share.

That was the only rule. And then the only prayer we prayed was grace and then we were just together So I think creating environments where humans can come and enjoy being with each other So that might mean having a cigar night or it might be having a whiskey tasting night or board games I'm a big fan of anything that makes people sit by each other So I don't even really like board games, but I like that people like them. I really love that people like them. And cigars, whiskey, this. I'm quite boring.

People say like, what are your hobbies? I like to talk. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mine are similar. Yeah. Talking, smoking cigars.

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Hello.com slash Matt Fradd. Thinking about most of the folks here are students at universities, largely in the United States, but then Canada, the UK, Mexico, other places besides. And so the point of the Thomistic Institute is to come together and you congregate around God and the things of God and then you chat about them. You know, any words of encouragement for this upcoming year for these Thomistic Institute chats? It doesn't have to be like expert insight. I don't have it I don't either so no, I would just say that I'm just so like

Glad you're on my team. Like I'm so glad that the Dominicans and the to mystic Institute is on my team, you know I I've only heard great things about y'all so I've been traveling to different countries every week for the past three months in Europe. And many places I go, they'll talk about Father Pines or the fellows at the other priests who talk on your YouTube channel and the Thomistic Institute.

It's really exciting and it's really refreshing because one thing John Eldridge has said recently is that the internet makes us weary skeptical pragmatists. We are bombarded with a sea of conflicting information about important things like politics and God's existence to unimportant things like I have back pain should I do sit-ups or what diet is best for the human body and we're just we just can't make sense of it because everyone's an expert and everyone's equally passionate and I don't know anymore,

so maybe I can't know anything. And the one thing that the Thomist Institute does and is say, and you said it last night, like you can act, no, you can know things. And you're like, oh, really? Yes, yes, you can know things, you can trust in things. And so, that's, I'm glad you existed.

Thanks, I'm glad you exist too. So maybe then from that perspective, because you've been in Austria and elsewhere, largely in Europe for the past four or five months, and so you've heard people speak about the American church from a distance, you yourself have kind of gazed on the American church from a distance. Any new insights or fresh insights as to what's going on here at present? We're in the midst. We're just kind of getting talked about.

First of all, as a non-American, it really bugs me when Europeans think they can talk down about America. I'm like, wouldn't you be speaking German if it weren't for them? I'm like, who the hell do you think you are? It's like this arrogance. I'm like, look at your gay little trash cans. You can't, you know, sit there and, you know. So I love Americans. So much so I married one, you know. Y'all are great. And what I would say to Americans

is do not underestimate your level of influence on the universal church because everywhere I went, I had people thanking, just like saying, I'm so glad for Bishop Robert Barron, I'm so glad for the Thomistic Institute, I'm so glad for Father Mike Schmitz. It's like those are some of the primary ways that they're encountering the faith that are being brought deeper into the faith. So that's huge and we don't have time to pat ourselves on the back, we have enough time to go okay I better be doing this well. I don't want to be falling into any errors like the error of set of account ism or the error of Modernism I have to really be doing my best here and taking this as seriously as I can that's at least how I came away

Thinking yeah What we had a wonderful time it was so beautiful Yeah, I don't know if I don do it again. But it was really great. Slovenia was incredible. Melania Trump wasn't there. I was a bit upset. But yeah, it's a lot of history. There are some countries where I thought, I don't think the Catholic Church will be here in 20 years. And then there were some places that I thought, wow, there's like Romania was incredible. A lot of beautiful people there where they kind of woke ideology of Western civilization hasn't fully penetrated the family there as it has here. Yeah.

Okay, so at at Studentville's campus in Ging where you were, you know, you're there with mostly like 19 and 20 year old students, a similar demographic to what we have here at present. You sometimes talk about things you would say to, you know, 19, 20 year old Matt Fred had you the opportunity at present with a necessary, you know, transitive property, however that works. What might you say to those here present, given what you've experienced over the course

of the last 20, 25 years? Yeah. First of all, it's always awkward to talk to people who apparently have been listening to me for years. I have the same sort of reaction, I imagine, as a man who got hammered drunk last night, right? And then he shows up and people are like, oh my gosh, I had a great conversation. I'm like, ugh. So when people say, I've been listening to you for years,

I don't feel glad. I think, oh gosh, I'm so sorry. I don't even know if I agree with everything I said. So I will probably say something that people have already heard me say if they have listened to the podcast. But if I could go back and tell like young mouse that well married Matt Fratt or single Matt Fratt. Let's tell single Matt Fratt. Alright so what I'm about to say is hyperbolic okay but there's truth in it right so it's hyperbolic but I would say you know like get married before you're ready have more kids than you can afford and find a bubble and live in it. That's what I would say.

Now all of those things I could then obviously discern, you know, obvious, you know, and then obviously don't have more kids than you can afford. Like it depends on how you're understanding me, but it's, you know what I'm saying? And by bubble, I don't mean solipsistic, insular, not in touch with the world. I don't mean that either.

I just mean like what humans have done for thousands of years, lived in communities. And then I would have, yeah. I got married when I was 23. That's great, but 21 would have been cooler, I think. Yeah, like I've been married 18 years. I just had, I just, I kissed, first time I ever kissed my wife

was in the Bleeding Horse Pub in Dublin He was there And That was 20 years ago. And so this year we went back there made out made everyone feel uncomfortable we went back there, made out, made everyone feel uncomfortable. No, no, no. No, no. This year we went back and the fella who served us beer wasn't yet a fetus when we first kissed. It was wild to realise how old we are.

But marriage is so beautiful. Like yes, it's hard and you've got to work through your own disorder and as it interplays with her own disorders. All of that's true, but just so grateful to be married. But I would say to young married Matt Fradd, I would say you need to find a way to calm down. Because nothing is as urgent as you think it is. In fact, the only thing that might be urgent

is that you calm down. Because I was so hell-bent on getting this right that I just couldn't see things around me. I was agitating myself by trying to be a perfect dad and a perfect husband and ironically that got in the way because I would have these ideas about how Scott Hahn or Jason Everett's kids prayed and I'm looking at my bloody zoo, you know?

And I felt kind of ashamed for that, or I felt like if I was better I could... But I just wish I could go back and be like, hey, look at me. Everything's fine. Like, everything is fine. Go have a whiskey, come back, let your kid play with the Legos while you pray the rosary, or if he wants to go to bed, let him do that. Everything is fine. You need to relax. Oh, you're at mass and your kid is playing up. That's okay, you don't even have to be here.

Go outside. Hang out outside with your kid, and then bring him in occasionally. Like, everything is fine. So I suspect that, you know, 56-year-old Matfrab might say something similar. Just chill a little bit. But that might have a lot to do with my personality.

No, that's super helpful. But since I wouldn't have listened to From the Future Matfrab, From the Future Matfrab would probably have said, look at me, you aren't gonna listen to a thing I say, so let me just say one thing and hopefully you'll listen to this. Find a community of believing Christians

who love each other and live among them as soon as possible. As soon as you can do that, do that. Because life is way too hard to do it on your own. I think that finding a lone Christian in pagan America is like finding a nine-year-old boy lost in the woods. He's going to die. He needs help. And an isolated Christian in pagan America is almost always assumed to be apostate. So I think that it's so essential that you don't have to have a

lot of friends but you do need to have some families that you can fast with, pray with, drink bourbon on the porch with, encourage each other. You have to find that and that was the big impetus to us moving to a little broken with, pray with, drink bourbon on the porch with, encourage each other. You have to find that. And that was the big impetus to us moving to a little broken downtown in Ohio. Okay, so apropos of the Christian community. I think that a lot of folks kind of define themselves and their community against other folks and their community. So it's like, oh, well, we're not them or not these other guys over here. Like So it's like, oh, well, we're not them, or we're not these other guys over here.

Like we're the blah, blah, blah, and thus and such. But that can make it such that, yeah, we conceive of our lives in kind of antagonistic or dialectical terms, which isn't always pleasant. We think that we're fighting some kind of holy war or we're fighting some kind, whatever it is. It seems like in Steubenville, there are a lot of different people

doing a lot of different things who get along in a lot of different ways. What are ways in which folks can navigate an environment in which we're told, like you're either on my team or you're on the other team. So I've been thinking about this a lot lately and not enough to make what I'm about to say coherent, but we'll give it a shot.

If we only define ourselves by what we're not, then we end up on these little islands alone, right? So like, I'm a trad Catholic, I'm against the Charismatics, or I'm this, but then now you're on an island together. And now all you've learned to do is define yourself by what you're not, so now the trad land has to split. And then these are the uber tradtrads who define themselves against those like loser trads who still like the divine mercy image and then...

Right? That was me making fun of the trads. I'm not on your side. But then you have this little island that breaks apart again and it's like, okay, this is what Christ said to Peter. Satan has desired to sift you like wheat To just isolate us to take us out of communion with each other So, I don't know maybe maybe like a modicum of humility, you know, like yeah in Steubenville You've got all sorts of people you've got the Eastern Catholics and the trad Catholics and the charismatic Catholics and you know, whatever else and and

and the charismatic Catholics and the, you know, whatever else. And, yeah, maybe if I focused more on what I loved and what I thought was beautiful for me and my family, I'd be less upset about other people doing it differently. People are on different journeys anyway, so even if you are right, you probably won't help them by being condescending, you know? And sometimes it's the nov order of being condescending.

I heard this one woman say, ah, the priest is up there, the Latin mass just mumbling to himself. Like, that is probably not what he's doing. But yeah, yeah, I don't know. Just, yeah, I don't know. I love different people for different reasons. You know, like I don't consider myself particularly sort of charismatic leaning, but I really love it when I meet a good charismatic person, you know, who's still wearing Birkenstocks with socks and

is telling me what they think the Lord just said to them. I love them so much. Yeah, my mom's criterion for whether or not a homily was good was whether or not it mentioned the Holy Spirit. Yeah, so she just had one thing, that's just really all she cared about. My litmus test is, is it under three minutes? I'd rather a bad short homily than a long brilliant one. Really? Okay, bold strategy.

Yeah, it's... Rather a bad short homily than a long brilliant one. Really? Okay. Bold strategy. Yep. It's... So something's gonna happen to you at 4.45 PM. Just like to say I apologize. Ha ha ha ha. I wanna tell you about a course that I have created for men to overcome pornography. It is called Strive21.com slash Matt.

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Strive21, that'srive21.com slash Matt or as I say text text Strive to 66866 to get started today. You won't regret it. So we're going to go to questions here in short order before doing so. You know conversations when this way and that and sometimes you're like oh I wish we could follow up on that or oh I wish we could follow up on this. Anything you want to chase down? Yeah let me just say a word because this is something the Lord has placed on my heart and it's that wasn't a joke And this has been this has been brewing for quite a quite a while I think when we live in a time of chaos

We are desperate to establish order and we seek to do that not only with other people in deciding who's in and who's out, but we do it with ourselves as well in a very harsh way. So in a day and age where we are actually in need of kindness and patience, we can be tempted to be quite brutal with ourselves. And in fact, any language of being patient with yourself is thought of as somehow soft or not serious. But Francis de Sales, not a soft fellow there, said have patience with the whole world,

but first and foremost have patience with yourself. Never become discouraged when considering your own imperfections, but every day begin the task anew. So I would say to us and to you here, don't be afraid of your own wretchedness. You know, I'm an old man now, I'm 40, and I run, you're just older.

I run into these barriers within myself that I don't understand, like, or I think, okay, I've kind of, I think I'm growing and I'm not sinning in this way anymore and then I run smack into some part of my psychology or personality that makes no sense and I'm frightened and I'm freaking out and I, or I see the depths of my depravity and it's scary. But I, I, that's a message I would like to say till I'm in the tomb. Don't be afraid of your own poverty. And that the good Jesus is the only refuge big enough and safe enough for your wretched little

heart. And I think when we encounter our own poverty, we're tempted to hide from him like Adam in the garden. But he's the refuge. Like you're running away from the only thing that can save your heart. And Anthony of Padua gave four reasons for why Christ bore his wounds after the resurrection. I think the second or the third one was, this is our refuge. So just as a dove makes her nest in the rocks,

in the side of a mountain, to protect her from the hawks or the eagles. So we have to kind of find our refuge in the wounds of Christ to protect us from the enemy and accuser of our brethren. And not only are you a delight to Jesus, apparently, like I've met a couple of you, you seem fine, but like Jesus likes you so much more than me a couple of you, you seem fine, but like Jesus likes you so much more than me, which is wild, you know, and not only are you a

delight to him, even your sin, when you repent of it, will be a delight to Jesus. Isn't that wonderful? His name means God saves, like's what he does. It's his job description. So, yeah, when you encounter your own poverty, don't try to downplay it. Rather upplay the mercy of God. I don't think that's a word, but just see how good God is. There's a wonderful book I'd recommend to any of you who have struggled or do struggle with scrupulosity. It's called I Believe in Love and one of the things he says in there is I'm not telling you you believe too much in your wretchedness. No, no, you're far more wretched than you could ever

realize. What I'm telling you is you do not believe enough in merciful love. So I just think further in to our blessed Lord and if you're here tonight or here today rather and and you have been you know engaged in sins that you're just so ashamed of you don't even know what to do with yourself like grab a priest and don't let him go until he agrees to hear your confession and if he says I don't have time right now I want you to look him in the eye and say what does that have to do with anything? I have four kids.

If they need me, I don't have the luxury of, and I'm being a bit hyperbolic, but not really. Like just, you know, you've got good priests here. And the priests that I've known and loved, I usually will ask this question, what do you think I'll say to them, to the person who confesses something that's like especially shameful? Like how does your opinion change? And every one of them says to me, I'd have more respect for them. I go to confession. I know how difficult it is to do that, to go to war with your ego. You know, so do that. Amen. Wow. All right, we've got some questions from the squad. So first one is this. How do we reconcile the fact that we don't want

to over-spiritualize anxiety that we experience with the fact that anxiety can affect our spiritual life? Your thoughts. Yeah, I mean, if we're struggling with anxiety, we can at least begin by asking, what are those behaviors that I'm engaged in that unnecessarily cause it?

Because some things that cause us anxiety are outside of our control, but there are many things that are within your control that you still choose to engage in that are making you anxious. So I like to think of the phone, for example, as both the soother and kind of a instigator of much anxiety.

And you think of it this way, you go to the coffee shop and you're in line and you feel to the coffee shop and you're in line and you feel awkward just standing there and you're not really sure how to say hi to people or if they want you to say hi to them and then you pull out your phone and you feel great. It's like it's this you that noticeably soothing thing but it also just creates anxiety you know because there's all these people who are texting you and instagramming you or people whatever emails that you're going to respond to. And so it's like, okay, well, there's something that I can maybe deal with.

And then it's like, am I getting enough sleep every night? Am I exercising? Am I moving my body? Like, it doesn't have to be impressive, but am I going on hikes? Am I going to the gym? Am I swimming? Am I doing something with my body so that I'm inhabiting it? Like that would be a good idea. And then am I swimming, am I doing something with my body so that I'm inhabiting it? That would be a good idea.

And then am I eating well? Or am I just eating junk all the time? So there's gonna be things to look at. If you feel like you're experiencing anxiety a lot, some of it's outside of your control, but you could moderate your internet usage, you could start eating better, you could start exercising,

and you could start sleeping better. And at this point, I would employ Jordan Peterson's advice, because all of that's obvious and yet we don't do it. He says, okay, what's something you could do that even you would do that would make your life better? Because asking what's something you could do is actually kind of unhelpful because you already know what you could do but you suck. Which is why you don't do that thing. Or you do it with tremendous gusto for three days

and then crash in on yourself like a dying star and binge Netflix or something. So what's something that even I, wretched as I am, could do? I don't want to go to the gym. Well I do but I won't. So what could I do? You know, I can't eat carnivore or paleo, but what's something I could do? Well, I could just not have sugar, or I could not have grains, or you know, I think those things. What do you think? I think many things, but not sugar and not grains, or not one or two on the list. But I support you. If that's possible for you that's incredible. I'm not saying I'd do it. No, yeah, but

nevertheless it's on the list. Okay, so the next question is your podcast has helped many conversions, has had, I can't speak, your podcast, conversions, verb. What are some other avenues you see today that we can use to evangelize? Yeah, I think small groups, small friendship groups might just save the church in America. I'm currently engaging in a book study with a couple of friends right now. We're reading Dostoevsky's Notes from Underground together, and we're like smoking hookah as we do it. Like that's our thing, you know? But I think finding friendships where you can get together and be human together

Like even today father I would say like we went to Chipotle for lunch And I think like our joy rubbed off on them And I've seen a lot of like depressing looking people around here like like yes, especially here Like you know like just upset looking or anxious or looking at their phone And I just felt like you and I, I don't know if you got that, but I sensed this kind of relief from their side that they just felt seen or something and friendship does that to other people, you know broadens and invites people in so Friendship groups. What do you think?

I was just gonna say the people working at Chipotle may also have just been laughing at me because I was there last night and I left my alb there and they actually threw it away so I knocked on their door at like 11 10 on the off chance that it was still there the dude opened up he's like yeah we pitched it and I was like can I ruddle around in your trash and he was like let me do it for you and then he gave me my thing back What is an alb again? An alb is like the white thing you put over the white things

That thing there? Yeah so it's like another white thing you put over the white things. That thing there? So it's like another white thing. Oh, I see. You feel like mass or something? Exactly, yeah. So I had been at mass, and then I dropped my alb there, and they saw me. They're like, ha ha ha, you're the dude that throws away clothes.

But yeah, that also too. OK, so next question is, is there a podcast that doesn't exist that you wish did exist? Ooh. I'm kind of maxed out on podcasts. Is there a podcast that doesn't exist that you wish did exist? I'm kind of maxed out on podcasts. Maybe one where someone who has a good personality and is somewhat humorous just reviews Wikipedia articles for random objects and helps me understand them. Here is the history of hookah or something that we just talked about like

I got a funny story about hookah. Y'all know what hookah is right? It's it's yeah good like yes Kidding alright, so it's it's tobacco. It's a way of smoking tobacco which by the way came from the Native Americans So if you are against tobacco, you're a racist. And if you're for it, you're guilty of cultural appropriation. So there's no way out. There's no way out. Anyway, so I was in Romania up in Transylvania, which is part of Romania or Hungary,

depending on whose side you're on. And my wife was going to do something, and I said to the fella who didn't speak very good English that I was gonna go get a hooker, and then I'll meet up with him. He thought I said hooker. So this is how the conversation went. I'm gonna go get a hooker and then I'll... and he's like okay. And at that point I was

ready to defend my tobacco use. So I kind of got a little like well what's the problem? He's like well you know hooker. But no I don't understand. You know what what it's not what do you why do you say that like that? At that point I think he was worried. Yeah. And... I'm sweating just thinking about it. And then I said to him something like, it's not, you know it's not a drug, right? It's just tobacco.

And he's like, oh, shisha. Yeah, alright, that's what I meant. I thought you meant... Yeah, right. And I'm like, what a horrible person I would be. If I'm like, I'm going to come to Transylvania and preach,'m like but seriously I'm gonna get a hookah. What an awful human being. At least hide it. Like at least pretend. Like I said I'm still sweating. Okay so Matt you mentioned our usage of technology not being much different than other folks,

non-Christians. What are your thoughts on a discipline of digital or technological minimalism? Yeah if you can maintain it I think that's really terrific. So there's a lot of different dumb phones out there that are in the middle between smart and dumb. I can think of it like eight or nine different brands right now, there's a lot. But a lot of them are just very difficult to live with, especially if you're traveling. But that would be one way to go about it. You could get the Wyze phone or all the other many different types of phones that they have. Yeah, I think you just have to set rules up for yourself. It's sort of

like food. Like a lot of my days, I just go about the place eating whatever looks good. So many of us do this. We just sort of go on through life, just not disciplining ourselves. St. Dominic said, ha ha, you're welcome. St. Dominic said, the man who governs his passions is master of his world. We must either command them or be enslaved by them. It is better to be a hammer than an anvil.

And a lot of us are just anvils, like we walk around getting pummeled by our passions all day long and that's our passions for you know pleasure or food or drink or what-have-you rest. But another one of those pleasures is curiosity which Aquinas says is a sin, which drives how much we engage with the Internet. I really think we should think seriously about reading the Bible more than listening to our favorite political how much we engage with the internet. I really think we should think seriously about reading the Bible more than listening to our favorite political commentators. And the fact that you don't do that is another proof for original

sin. Like you're an idiot. But that's so obvious. Like you should obviously read scripture more than you listen to your favorite political pundit. But you don't, I mean some of you do, but most of you don't, why? You know what's good for you, why won't you do it? And it's like that sin of curiosity where I feel out of control and I have this belief that if I could just understand things, then I would have some order, I would have some control.

But of course that never works, and we know it never works, you know? And it seems to me that when we deviate from the scriptures, we stop reading them and we know it never works, you know? And it seems to me that when we deviate from the scriptures, we stop reading them and we put them aside and we settle just for like philosophical ruminations or conversations that aren't based in the word. It's like a thick layer of dust and grime kind of comes down upon those pages of scripture and we no longer understand God as we ought to, ourselves as we ought to, or others. It's like Bonaventure's book, Journey of the Mind to God.

He says, sin twists man over on himself. He cannot see God, himself, or others are right. And so I really think we've got to make a better effort at getting back into the word, deleting our podcast apps, not listening to news apps. Because I think when we listen to the news incessantly, and I've been doing that yesterday, you know, because of the debate thing that happened, and I do that as much as the next guy, you know, but I think what happens is, okay, God has given me authority. He's given me this realm of authority, like over my bride and my children, to love them

well, to lead them to heaven. He's given me authority over this apostolate, pines with Aquinas. But when I spend my time focusing on things I have no control over, I'm impotent to change anything over there. And I just feel more out of control than I previously did, because I'm concerning myself with things I have no control over. Meanwhile, I've abandoned the very things that God has given me authority over, and so that realm of authority begins to even shrink now.

You know, like that's just not a good way to live. So, what was the question? It was something about, yeah, yep, nailed it. Um, all right, we have time for one more question. If you haven't submitted your questions, do so now. But I'm also going to... We have time for one more question that you want them to submit their questions? Well, I mean, it's just it's I mean, it could be a really good one that comes in right at the end, you know, you never know until you have choice pickings. So the question is this, as an Eastern Catholic,

how do you hold Eastern spirituality or traditions of Eastern Catholicism together with the thought of St. Thomas Aquinas? Well, two things. One, I am a traitor. I abandoned the heritage bequeathed to me and went Eastern. But I don't feel that bad about that because I think like many people who were raised in the spirit of Vatican II, I wasn't given anything anyway. It was like a gutted church where priests were like, call me Frank, instead of Father Francis. And then instead of like the offertory, I remember this time that we brought up field hockey sticks

and posters because we give everything to God. And that's what I was kind of given. Now don't get me wrong, there were good priests, there were well-meaning people but we're not meant to live without tradition. Like we're so hungry to be grounded. We're like cut adrift and we're floating through the void and of course we want tradition and I fully understand why people who had it and then saw it cut out are angry. I think it's something to be angry about. So anyway, I'm a traitor, and I am an Eastern Catholic. And how do I hold it with the thought of Thomas? I, you

know, sometimes I worry that people think, like, sometimes I worry that Thomists think of Thomas the way Trump fans think of Trump. Like, do I have to defend everything he says? Like, do I, I don't know, like, what's the, how much do I have to defend everything he says like do I don't know like what's the how much? Do I have to agree with Thomas to be a Thomas like I'm not actually that interested in being a Thomas I didn't really know what it means You know like what aspect of his thought do I have to align myself with this is he my principal tutor is that the sense? In which somebody considers themselves a Thomas, so I don't consider myself a Thomas And so you are all really right now So I don't consider myself a Thomist.

And so... You are all really right now. You mean to tell me, flip's table, leave stage. Yeah, I understand. You come to Pines with a coinus. I'm not even drinking beer and we're not even talking about a coinus. Someone said, what's the number one question you'll ask Thomas when I go to heaven?

I said, I'll ask him if he will forgive me for besmirching his good name. Yeah, but I guess I'm not, I don't know if I run into too much conflict with the fathers who I read a great deal. Like St. Ephraim is my guy that I'm reading a lot now and to mystic thought. I guess you'd have to maybe come up with a specific thing but... Okay, any final thoughts, final accommodations? Nope.

None? Thank you for having me. I love you, I love the Dominicans, they seem fine. These guys, I'm honoured to be invited and good for these guys for taking the intellectual life seriously and for being here. And it's been a joy to have you. Thanks so much. Thank you.