Pints With Aquinas - Our Divided Church, God's Mercy, and The Eucharistic Congress w/ Cardinal Burke

Episode Date: June 27, 2024

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Well, Your Eminence, it's really lovely to be with you in the Eternal City. Yes, I'm so glad you came and happy to visit with you again after many years. Yes. Well, first question I have for you is about this novena that you started. Maybe you can tell us a bit about it for those who aren't familiar and how many people joined it. Well, I think every serious person today realizes that the world is in a very troubled situation. For example, the ongoing war in the Ukraine and then the prolonged crisis in the Holy Land and then the rebellion against God and the whole moral sphere, the advance of the idea that we can choose our own sexual identity and mutilate ourselves in order to entertain the insane idea.

the insane idea. Then, and also that the same termals entered into the church. There's so much confusion today about what the church really teaches and in a sense that more and more Catholics have that somehow the church has lost her moorings, her rudder, and that she's just drifting with the contemporary culture which those who have lived intensely the culture know that it's lethal and it's not for our happiness either in this life or in the life which is to come. So before this reality, it led me to think of the situation in Mexico in the time of

the apparitions of Our Lady Guadalupe in the 16th century, precisely from December 9th to the 12th in 1531. And at that time, there was a terrible situation of human sacrifice among the Native Americans, the Estics. It was a corruption of the Estic religion, a diabolical corruption, but it was costing thousands and thousands of lives. At the same time, there was a conflict developing between the Native Americans and the Spanish explorers and settlers, which was sure to result in a bloody conflict with the destruction of many human lives and of their goods. And so at that time, Bishop Juan de Zamarraga, who was the first bishop of Mexico, what is today Mexico City,

he declared only an intervention of God will save us. And in fact, God sent our lady in what is today Mexico City on Tepeyac Hill. She appeared to this humble convert to the Catholic faith Native American Juan Diego and asked him to be her messenger to go to the bishop and to ask the bishop to build a chapel in which she could draw her children to the mercy of God, namely to her son, her divine son, our Lord Jesus Christ, who alone is our salvation. In fact, in the apparition, she appears with child, as a mother with child, And so the force of the redemptive incarnation is brought fully home by this apparition. And then what we have to keep in our minds too,

that at the same time, Europe was bleeding because of the Catholic Church in Europe was bleeding because of the Protestant revolt. People were leaving the church going into schism in great numbers. And this too, and there were also wars and threats of wars in the world. And so Our Lady appears and within within eight years, nine million of the Native Americans convert to the Catholic faith and the whole of the people, both the Spanish explorers and the settlers and the Native Americans embrace her as their common mother

and find a way actually to form a mixed race, and find a way actually to form a mixed race, harmonious union reflected also through marriage and the family. And to this day, the Mexicans identify themselves as Guadalupanos, sons and daughters of our Lady Guadalupe. as sons and daughters of Our Lady Vodoloupi. And this apparition is so powerful and so unusual in that when she sent St. Juan Diego to visit the bishop, and the bishop reasonably said, I would like some sign from Our Lady that it's really she who is sending you and so she provides these miraculous flowers in the middle of winter on a thorny rocky hill these

beautiful roses and other beautiful flowers and as the sign and so and she puts them ranges them in st. Juan Diego's mantle or what they call his tilma and he goes to the bishop but at the moment that he opens the mantle to give the bishop the sign that the image of Our Lady appears on the mantle it remains there yet today and no one can explain how it's there they've been all kind of studies done it's not painted it's simply it's a it's there. There have been all kinds of studies done. It's not painted. Simply, it's a miraculous image. And the cloth itself, it's cactus cloth made from fibers of the cactus and should have disintegrated within perhaps 40 or 50 years after it was made. And it is still intact today with this image which continues to speak to us today and to draw us to our Lord.

And so I get to the point, I know this is a long story but... That's a good one. Yes. I said to myself, this is in a certain sense today, I mean, we sense two people say to me, are these the last times? And I always say to them, I don't know that. Our Lord Himself said that it's for the Father to make these decisions, but it can certainly seem that way. And so we really need a strong intervention of God. And so I'm begging our lady to intercede for that.

And I thought it can't just be a normal nine-day novena. This will be a novena of nine months. And we'll begin on March 12th, nine months before her feast day on December 12th, which is the day of the last apparition, the day in which our image got miraculously left on the tomb of St. Juan Diego. So we will pray thoroughly every day for an intervention of God to get us back on the right path again, and for the only path for peace among us and our families and our communities and in the world. And someone might say this is something that took place 500 years ago, how is our Lady of Guadalupe anything but a relic of Catholic history?

But as you began to allude to there are many similarities between Aztec culture 500 years ago and maybe secular Western culture today. I'm thinking of well, just false religions, the proliferation of atheism, so you might just say just not catechized, and then also the the murdering of the innocent within the womb. Yes, well there had developed a profound disrespect for human life, of course reflected in the practice of human sacrifice, but also there was among some of the explorers and the settlers a view of the native people as somehow less than fully human and so which for them justified also a taking of their lives without respect for the enviable dignity of every human life.

That would be the principal characteristic, I would say, of similarity between those times and our times. But also there was this rebellion against God's plan for us and the corruption of the Aztec religion, which already was in need of the purification and perfection that our Lord alone brings to every form of religious expression, but they had been diabolically induced to a practice of wholesale, and they were sacrificing not just adults but children and just wholesale murder in the name of God. Now, so that is something that of course is fundamental to the restoration of peace in society today,

is the respect for human life. People often ask, how is it that our society has become so violent? And I, in my own mind, I say to, if a society will kill an innocent and defenseless human life in the womb of the mother, what message does it give to the whole society in the sense that human life doesn't count for anything and therefore your will is everything. If I want something even it means killing another person or doing great harm to them, that somehow I can do that. If things just go completely out of order

and the result is violence, and that's the whole history of the world, demonstrates that. So roughly, how many people have joined this nine-month Novena since March? I know you know that. Well, officially, the number is something like 150,000, but I meet many people.

It's basic, praise the Lord. It is, no, and it's this may, the more people pray, the more powerful will be the result of the prayer. But I meet many people here in Europe especially who tell me that they've joined the novena, but that they haven't signed up officially. But the important part is of course to pray.

And the prayer is in eight or nine languages, including Latin. And so it's very easy for people to take part. Then sometimes people ask me, too, they found out late about the novena. It started on March 12. And they say, well, it's too late to join. It's not too late.

You can join it at any time. The novena is a nine-month novena. But you can just use the example of the of the parables of the workers who the master went out at various hours of the day and ask people to to help and, and, and they did, and he paid them all the same. And so our Lord is going to hear our prayer the same. If we didn't know about it sooner, now is the time to join in.

Well, I'll be sure to put a link below so people can learn more about that. But are you shocked at how many people have joined? And I'm, I'm an old man. And I'm not so familiar with the her don't appreciate fully all the power of the internet communications. But it amazes me how you can reach so many people. And it's a powerful instrument for good. It's also been a powerful instrument and is a powerful instrument for evil, for instance, the terrible pornography and the internet.

But a tremendous amount of good can be done to reach all these people, so many people, and to invite them to pray and they respond. This also, it surprised me in a way, and in another way it didn't, because I find more and more as I talk to people, visit people in various parts, people are really hungering and thirsting for our Lord and for the good order that he puts in our life for his way,

which is truth and beauty and goodness. And so they, and somehow I think as things have grown ever more degraded and the cultures become ever more emptied of goodness, people are waking up and they're saying to themselves, this isn't right. This isn't what, this isn't why God made me. this isn't right, this isn't what, this isn't why God made me. And so they're they're really hungry and thirsting for sound direction in their lives. And not just a direction in the sense of some kind of ideology, it's not an ideology, it's a personal relationship with our Lord in His Church where He nourishes us with the sacraments. We have a life of prayer. We communicate with him daily. We have devotions by which we honor him

throughout the time. And this is what people are really hungry and thirsting for. I want to tell you about Hello, which is the number one downloaded prayer app in the world. It's outstanding. Hello.com slash Matt Fradd.

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Hello.com slash Matt Fred. This is what people are really hungry and thirsting for. Yes. The devil would have us believe that our Lord is a slave driver. But when you bet he's our hope, he's our refuge. It's the world who's a slave driver. But when you, but he's our hope, he's our refuge, it's the world who's a slave driver. The amount of commandments it expects us to keep up with and it just runs us ragged.

And so I think you're right, people are tired and we're looking to rest and we can only do that in our Lord. No, that's right, because we become slaves to, it is Christ who frees us and any other, if we give ourselves to anything else, it's a question of becoming a slave. It's a little bit, I think, like little children

when their parents correct them and they become angry, I hate you, and all this sort of thing. But in fact, it's the correction of the parents which is leading the children to have possession of themselves and to be able to grow into adulthood and make a family, make a community, serve the community, respond to whatever vocation God calls them to. And I think many people realize today that yes, Christ is demanding. Grace is the German theologian who died as a victim of the Nazi regime, Dietrich Bonhoeffer.

I like this analogy with the economic world. Grace is costly. It's not cheap to be a Christian. It demands the best of us. It calls for the best in us. But that's what also brings us joy. We don't get any joy out of debasing ourselves. Amen.

Well, what I love about this novena is it seems like the Church and the world, and maybe most institutions today, feel very divided. A lot of people feel hopeless in the face of all this. And I think because of this in the Catholic Church, I see a lot of people really watching up what I would consider too much what you might call ecclesial political news, not national political news, but we're all very interested in this scandal of that, or what this person said or that person said. and I think we do that so that we can

Have a sense of control and safety, but what often ends up happening is we feel Exhausted and overwhelmed. Yes And so I'm so grateful to you for having rather than calling us to what this or that person said You're calling us to the Blessed Mother. He's,000 people plus said, we're there with you. So thank you. And that's the way, I mean, all of us recognize that there are serious problems in the church, but dwelling on them, ruminating on them is not helping anything. What we're in the hands of God, we have to turn to God and place this before him and can have conversion in our own lives first and foremost and then to

To pray for the for the conversion of our culture for the transformation of our culture beginning with families and then in local communities and in the nation and that's how that's how the world is transformed I Think sometimes turning my attention away from my miserable self to someone I deem more miserable than me makes me feel good. I just had to drive through Rome, which I will never do again, and a few choice words slipped out of my mouth. I shouldn't even call them that.

And I had to apologize to my children. The hard work of trying to be patient, kind with children, kind with one spouse, generous, concerned with another. That's hard work. It's a lot easier to go online and get angry about something and feel self righteous. What would your what would your advice be to us, who perhaps do feel that too often we're more interested in the inner workings of the church than perhaps our own families or prayer life. We may know intellectually that we shouldn't be doing this, but it feels hard to get out of. But I think this, all of us have different responsibilities

for the church, all of us have responsibility for the church, the Lord has invited each and every one of us some portion of his vineyard for our care. And so we all will contribute to the conversion that's needed in the church and in the world by the conversion of our personal lives, by being the very best, for in your case the very best husband you can be, in my case the very best priest that I can be, carry out your work in a way that promotes what is good and avoids what is evil.

And so all of us have a part to play. It's important for the faithful to be aware of difficulties in the church and to express their concern about them. But there's only so much we can do, even myself as a cardinal. I can be aware of all kinds of things, and I can do my part. But there comes a certain point where I have to turn it over to our Lord,

because he is the head of the church. The pope is his bicker on earth. The College of Bishops are his successors to his apostles, but Christ is the head. And so we do what we can. We do our best, first of all, in carrying out our duties, and also making known to those in authority our concerns. And this is a cardinal, I've expressed concerns and also making known to those in authority are concerns. As a Cardinal, I've expressed concerns that I have about the present state of the Church.

I trust always with respect for the authority, the supreme authority of the Holy Father. But recognizing my duty as a Cardinal, as one of his principal counselors, the College of Cardinals is called the Senate of the Pope, my duty to express to him concerns that I have. And then to be at peace and to say, we're in the hands of God, our Lord is the head and shepherd

of his church and we trust in him and in his promises. One of the most difficult aspects of our Christian life is God's permissive will. Why does God permit evil things to happen? Why does God permit this turmoil to go on and so forth? We don't, we aren't God. We can't understand those things. We try to deal with them the best we can, but then we trust that he is in charge and that in some way he will bring good out of the evil that we see and lead the church to a purer life for the salvation of many souls.

a pure life for the salvation of many souls. What's your advice to those watching who may feel exhausted at the divisions within the church who are now tempted to leave Protestantism, orthodoxy, or even to give up on Christianity altogether? Yes, this is something that I have encountered frequently, especially over the past years, and people who see the sin in the church and forget that the church is not sin.

The church is a divine reality. The church was founded by our Lord Jesus Christ. The church is holy in itself, but made up of sinful men who can, from time to time, cause this Church great suffering and besmirch, tarnish the beauty of the Church by their scandalous behavior. And so my response is this. Christ told us, as he was about to ascend to the Father, the right hand of the Father, he told the apostles to go out and to preach the gospel to all the nations, baptizing in the name of the Father and of the Son and the Holy Spirit,

communicating the divine life in every time and every place. And then he said, and I will be with you until the last day until his final coming. And he promised that, and I'm not going to abandon him. He's in his holy church, and no matter what anybody is doing, whoever it is to distract from the beauty, from the truth that is in the church, I'm going to remain with our Lord and be faithful to him and trust in his promise that he is

with us, that he is going to make all of this right. But I certainly cannot see how I'm doing God's will by abandoning our Lord in the church. When he was in the Garden of Gethsemane undergoing his agony, he asked the apostles to watch with him, to pray with him, and that's where we're going. He suffers in his church, but we're there with him, and we're praying with him and being faithful to what he teaches us. St. Paul, the beginning of the letters, the Galatians, already, I mean, this isn't something new. Already then, people were trying to use the church

to promote their own personal ideas and so forth. And St. Paul put it very plainly, he said, if anybody teaches you, even an angel from heaven should arrive to teach you something different from that which I've handed on to you, the sacred tradition. Anathema said, let him be anathema, it's communicated from the church. from the church. And so we know that this is, the devil hates, hates our Lord, and he hates the fact that we human beings, the only earthly creatures made in God's own image

and likeness can enjoy the friendship of God. And so he tries in every way, through his lies and deceptions, to draw us away from Christ, but we remain with him. And so my advice is stay with our Lord and his holy church, trust him and his promises, and then do in your daily life according to your vocation, according to whatever gifts God has given you,

whatever responsibilities you have, be absolutely the best Christian you can be. Amen. I'm thinking, you know, we're quite close to St. Peter's here, and I'm thinking of the hopelessness one may have felt seeing the head of the church, St. Peter, being crucified at Nero's Circus. I mean, the whole thing must have just said, well, this was over. We had a good run, but we have no idea how we're going to get over this. And then you look at St. Peter's and go, wow, things can look very bleak and then turn around

in a way that we didn't expect. Yes, exactly. No, that's exactly the point. And there are so many examples in the history of the Church when she was beset with great evil, revisions, and worldliness that corrupts the teaching of the gospel and the bringing of the sacraments. And all those times, our Lord raises up saints and He preserves the Church even as it has come to us in our day. It's said that one of the principal demonstrations of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the

Church is that men have not been able to destroy it, because surely if the Holy Spirit wasn't dwelling in the Church and even in the most difficult times, continuing to give the grace of Christ. If the Church was a purely human institution, it would have been destroyed long ago. Well, you were ordained in 1975, correct? Yes, 1975, June 29th. Wow, by Pope St. Paul VI. I was wondering if you could give us an

anecdote about each Pope since, since I imagine you knew all of them at least somewhat. I knew all of them except I never had the pleasure to meet Pope John Paul I. I was an ordained priest already during his pontificate and he, I was in the United States, I didn't travel to Rome for his inauguration of his pontificate. I did at the time, he wrote a wonderful book called Ilustrisimi, The Most Illustrious, and he had a great interest in excellent literature

and used it in a way to show how excellent literature, including Mark Twain, he was fascinated with him, could be a vehicle to teach the gospel, to draw people to Christ. I did read that and I, like I think a lot of Catholics, there was something about his smile that showed a very pure soul, a very thoroughly good man. He had a very good face. His role was to be with us for those 28 days, and then his pontificate was consummated.

Pope John Paul II was just a great figure. I was privileged to study here in Rome, study canon law during his pontificate. Then I was called back to work in the Apostolic Signatory during his time. What impressed me most about him was his great love for people and to interact with people. You would see him sometimes and he was tireless and you'd see him come into a large group of people and he looked extremely tired and you wonder how is he going to do this and once he was with the people he would just come to life and be able to draw them to our Lord. He did a great service today, we're still drawing upon it,

to illustrate how the teachings of the Second Vatican Council are coherent with the whole tradition and try to illustrate it because there was, after the council, hijacking of the council by certain forces who wanted to promote their own ideas. We see it in the catechetical world. We also see it in the sacred liturgy in a very devastating way. And he brought everything back into line again with what the church had always taught and practiced

through as many encyclicals and other, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, a new edition of the Code of Canon Law. He also had this wonderful sense of humor that he always conveyed the joy of his office even though he bore heavy burdens because we forget it perhaps today but there were many who were opposed to him and who made great difficulties for him.

Well, Bendick XVI to me was the media like to portray him as the Banza Gardenao, the Rottweiler, this aggressive, that he was the meekest of men that I had met with such authority. And at the same time, just an incredible command of the faith, of the teaching, of the tradition, and taught in a very accessible way. His sermons, for instance, also his addresses on Sunday before the praying the angelus. They're just full of inspiring, illuminating considerations with regard to our Lord and his life with us in the church. Those, thanks be to God, those texts are still available to us

for our study. And I didn't agree with his abdication. And I did have the blessing to speak with him a couple of times afterwards. And he knew that. But I may respect the fact that he made the judgment according to the lights of his own conscience, but he was of that humility that he just felt that at his age and with

with all the things that were going on in the church, that he'd, there had to be somebody younger and more vigorous. But I believe in a way that that he, in his fatigue, pouring out his last energies, he would have given, and pouring out his last energies, he would have given and he did in a certain way give to the church what she surely needed.

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Michael's Lent which starts August 15th and leads up to the feast of St. Michael the Archangel on September 29th. St. Michael's Lent is an ancient tradition of prayer and fasting popularized by St. Francis in the Middle Ages that's been lost in our time. Let's bring it back. Join the men of Exodus 90 and Father Carlos Martins, Catholic priest, exorcist and host of the exorcist files who will serve as our spiritual guide for St. Michael's Lent this year on the Exodus 90 app. We will awaken to invisible realities and enter into the spiritual battle that

rages around us all the time. Go to Exodus90.com Matt for a 14 day free trial to the Exodus 90 app and to learn more about St. Michael's Lent. That's Exodus90.com Matt to join us for St. Michael's Lent. That's Exodus90.com. slash Matt to join us for St. Michael's Lent starting August 15. I remember it was in 2004. It was in November. I came for an ad liminivisit. I was there as bishop of St.

Louis and at that time Pope St. John Paul II was already very diminished. The Parkinson's disease had cost him greatly. And we arrived and then the next day was Sunday and I went for the Angelus address and he came out onto the, he came to the window and started the address and he couldn't talk anymore and he became very frustrated. But there were some people there from, I think it was from Bergamoor, from some part of Italy,

they had a banner that said, your weakness is our strength. In other words, that even in his suffering, he was sustaining the church. But those are, we've been blessed in our time with such a wonderful shepherds. And we thank God for it. Now you mentioned the hijacking of the council.

What was it like? You weren't a bishop at the time. You were probably- No, I was in the seminary. I graduated from high school in 1966. Already the turmoil was starting the council at the end in 1965, but things really ramped up. I did two years of junior college in our Dosset Seminary

in La Crosse, Wisconsin, then I went to the Catholic University of America to study philosophy. The philosophy program there was outstanding to this day, I'm so grateful for it. But the seminary was in complete turmoil and there was, and I lived through all of the liturgical abuses. I mean, when I read Sumorum Pontificum

and the letter that the Pope wrote to the bishops, he said it was practically more than a person could stand. It was at times. And I saw, I had grown up with a wonderful catechesis, the Baltimore catechism. We were instilled a very deep understanding of our faith. I would say an understanding of our faith which formed us to know that we could always learn more. Those great definitions from the catechism, they all led you to think more deeply about

the reality. They say that a sacrament is an outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace. You can be unpacking that for the rest of your life. But I saw that all evaporate in this kind of ridiculous emphasis on experience without any proper instruction. And then, of course, I mentioned the abuses in the liturgy. And then I saw so many priests who

abandoned the act of priestly ministry, so many religious sisters who abandoned their consecrated life, and it was simply a time of great turmoil. As I say, under Pope St. John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI, we saw things, there's been a great progress made in restoring the sacredness of the sacred liturgy, and also great efforts made to improve catechesis, much more needs to be done. And that's the way in which we must continue to go.

Did you ever get swept up into this? Was it? No, I remember when I was in high school, I was in the high school seminary and there was a certain euphoria about the council. It was like it was a whole new age in the church. And I remember for a while being somewhat fascinated with that. And then in the end, I said to myself, I came from a good home, a good Catholic home, and then the Miner's Seminary was really—in the Catholic schools we had wonderful sisters

and priests in the parish. Then the Miner's Sem it led us already into a serious Christian life. I couldn't abandon that. I knew that this was, and also, this was a great grace. All the time that in the seminary, first of all, there were always some very good priests, but also there were fellow seminarians who were good men and they called forth the best in a person. They were good friends in the sense that they led you to become the best person you could be. So I didn't always see things, I was a young man, I didn't see them as clearly as I think I see them today,

but on the other hand, I couldn't buy into that. Yeah. Well, how do you compare that time in the 70s and 80s to today's chaos? How is it different? Because I think we have a short memory. There are some who are just coming into the church and they're hearing of a time that was, but they never experienced it up close and personal like you did and other Catholics who lived through that time? Well, certainly in many places and there's a, the church is, there's a restoration I would call it, it never was lost, but a restoration of sound doctrine and discipline and including liturgical life. I cannot ever cease to be profoundly moved by the young people today who are joining very demanding religious communities, both responding to the vocation of the priesthood

in a very difficult time. And at the same time, the young people, the young couples that I meet who are engaging themselves in a deep spiritual life, life-centered in prayer and in the liturgy for their marriage to be strong, that they understand that the vocation to marriage is for the salvation of the spouse's soul, that then they take that very seriously. And they're very being very generous with God. They're having a number of children and they're really doing everything they can to create a good family life. So there's so many signs of these wonderful parishes too. They have a good priest who's leading the people and the people are responding.

You're always going to have people who are dissenting or people who are unhappy for one reason or another, but you see that these communities are very solid and that lasts, that's enduring. What's solid and good, beautiful, that will last. And there can be turmoil and there can be, it can seem like everything is lost, but it won't be. Our Lord doesn't permit that.

And so I think we're, but we have to be attentive. You said that we have short memories, and today some ideas are being introduced, which were also very current in those times, and very, not correct, not true to the Church as our Lord founded it. And some of those ideas are reemerging today. We have this terrible situation in Germany

with this so-called synodal way. And in general, this whole notion of synodality, and I've spoken about this on many occasions, no one can define what synodality is. It isn't a term that ever existed in the history of the church, but it seems to be a kind of a placeholder in which all kinds of ideologies can enter in

and to the division of the church. And so we see this happening in Germany, even with regard to the nature of the church. And so we see this happening in Germany, even with regard to the nature of the church itself, and then with regard to questions of morality and doctrine. And so we have to, we can't suffer from that forgetfulness of, and it's all too recent, at least while I'm getting older, but some of the younger people didn't live through that, but I'd like to tell them don't let that happen again.

We need now a period in the church of really intense, something like the Middle Ages where there is intense, deep, doctrinal and liturgical and moral life. Yeah, yeah, that's what I'm seeing as well. Young people want to be, they want their faith, their hunger for God to be treated with seriousness. Yes, they want reverence. They want somewhere to, as it were, kiss the earth, to not have their faith patronized. That's exactly right. Even myself in the 90s discerning the priesthood, I wasn't at all attracted to the priests who would say things like,

well, call me Bob. No, exactly. OK, Father Bob. I wanted to be, yeah. So it's good to see. Now, Orthodox Catholics rightly criticize and call to repentance those who are, to use political language, on the left. But what errors do those who would consider themselves Orthodox or traditional need to look out for?

Well, we have to look out for the danger that we ourselves begin to see our faith as an idea or an ideology, that we're promoting some kind of a political party, so to speak, or a certain political line and so forth. And that is a great temptation when you're fighting against certain positions and you establish your positions, but it isn't the positions in

themselves, it's their coherence with the teaching of Christ and with the life of Christ as he gives it to us in the Church. So the important thing is to remain, number one, serene. If we're following our Lord, there's no place for us to become angry and abusive or uncharitable and try to justify it by saying what they're so wrong. No, our Lord doesn't operate in this way. Number two, to be humble before our Lord and to seek to deepen our own understanding and, number three, to respect the fact that he's in his church. It can never be correct, for instance, in combating error, combating confusion.

It can never be correct to fail to respect, for instance, the office of the bishop or the office of the Holy Father. There could be somebody in the office who is failing, but the office is a divine institution. Christ, the first thing he did in his public ministry was to call twelve apostles apart and to form them to be in his person, the head and shepherd of the flock and every time and place. And so we can't, it's not acceptable to fall into that kind of really mundane approach, calling your enemy by names and so-called, first of all making an enemy of the

person who is in error and then secondly calling them by, you know, uncharitable names and so forth. And then, because then we fall into the same, into the same position where the church becomes, after our image and likeness instead of as it's been given to us as it is our gift, St. Paul says it so beautifully, I have handed on to you what I first received. For Paul it was completely different from what he thought. He was persecuting the church, but he came to know Christ and so that's the kind of spirit we have to have. I was reading a spiritual writer who I forget, and he said something like, you're meant

to confess your own sins. You're not meant to confess other people's sins. And just phrasing it like that, I thought, oh, I need to be much more careful the way I speak of other people, especially having this platform, having a podcast, I repent of the ways that I have, you know, spoke too loosely or have sinned. But I really don't want to do that anymore. I don't want to confess other people sins, but it is a great temptation. And it's it's completely understandable. But it's something that we have to, to arm ourselves against and recognize when we when we have to arm ourselves against and recognize when we have failed.

What is your opinion of this upcoming National Eucharistic Congress? I know you wrote a book recently, Respecting the Body and Blood of the Lord When Holy Communion Should Be Denied. So I'm sure you have some opinions on how American Catholics could better revere and worship our Lord, the leader of the Christian faith. It's remarkable that the Blessed Sacrament is being carried in procession throughout the nation. My prayer is that as the Blessed Sacrament is being carried throughout the nation, that

people recognize that this is Christ himself. This is the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ only by restoring faith in the real presence of our Lord in the Holy Eucharist and then in our participation in the saving mystery through Holy Communion. When we receive the body and blood of Christ,

we are receiving in a certain way His cross on our shoulders. In other words, we're uniting ourselves to His sacrifice, to His pouring out of His life in pure and selfless love. This is what has to be the fruit of the processions, I'm all in favor of it. It's a wonderful initiative, but we have to be very careful that it doesn't take a lot on a life of its own. It's something that's very, how should I say, it generates a lot of enthusiasm. We have thousands of people already

close to my home area. They had a bus at Sacramento in Minneapolis-St. Paul, which is just a couple of hours north of La Crosse, where I have my home when I'm not in Rome. They are tremendous outpouring the little huge cathedral, over 3,000 people there, and then people going in processions, singing, and so forth. And that is wonderful, but there has to accompany it, this deepening of faith.

And this is what's lost, for instance, that we have people like President Biden, who claims to be a devout Catholic, and yet is in favor of aborting babies even in the birth canal, or who's in favor of this whole transgender agenda, which is a complete rebellion against God's plan for us. And then that he approaches to receive Holy Communion. This is not possible because he denies Christ in these very blatant public ways and stubbornly does this, and at the same time approaches to receive Christ and the communion. This is a sacrilege for his own sake and for the sake of the whole Church.

That can't be permitted. And that's not making, as you say, the communion rail a battleground with God. There were more communion rails. But that's the phrase that you usually say. It's not like a trophy or something. No, no, no. It's simply respect for our Lord Jesus Christ. And the pastoral approach is if you have someone like President

Biden, you simply say to him, Mr. President, as long as you espouse these policies and programs and laws that are in violation of the divine law, you may not approach to receive Holy Communion. And then if he does, simply not to give him only communion. It's one important way in which the truth about the Eucharist is taught and respected. And Saint Paul considered it so important. In chapter 11 of the first letter to the Corinthians, he addressed the situation there.

People had turned the Eucharist into a kind of, excuse me, sets of eating, drinking, and lack of regard for the mystery. And he puts it very plainly, and he said, if you eat and drink without recognizing the body of Christ, you eat and drink your own damnation. Where there wasn't any words, you're very strong. There's an analogy here to something we spoke about earlier.

If you kill the innocent, what does that do to us as a whole as we reflect on the sacredness of human life, how we treat humans who get in our way? Likewise, if we commit sacrilege by giving the Holy Eucharist to public grave sinners, it seems to me, well, how does that affect Catholics and how they view the Eucharist? It's not only is it a disservice to, say, President Joe Biden, who ought not to receive for his own good, but it also teaches me something if the bishops or the priests are willing to. So why isn't this more universally accepted? I think Catholics get frustrated that this isn't.

And sometimes we get frustrated because we are petty, and we actually do want to see our political opponents be humiliated, right? Sometimes there is that, and we should repent of that. But why isn't there more consensus among priests and bishops in America that, of course course you don't give public people who are for the destruction of children of the womb Holy Eucharist and how could that am what would have to happen for

that to come about I to me it's a question of a misunderstanding of the nature of the church itself of the nature of the Church itself. The Church is the body and blood of Christ. We are living members grafted onto the vine, who is Christ. So the only way for us is respect for the truth, the truth of the faith and of its practice. But they developed this idea of somehow that it was being kind to people

not to deny them anything. And they developed the idea. Also, I remember when we were talking about the liturgical abuses, they developed the idea that if you were at Mass, you just went to communion. There was no question of examining your conscience or going to confession regularly to make yourself prepared to receive all the communion. And so I think we just simply lost our moorings and we have to get them back. We have to begin to teach it. And the little book that I wrote is just that set forth and it shows what I did

there. It's a little bit of an exercise, but it showed that from the time of St. Paul throughout all the centuries, the church was consistent in saying that, and a concern for proper preparation to receive Holy Communion. And I remember when I was a boy,

people did not receive communion frequently. And I respected that, because they hadn't been able to go to confession, or they just didn't feel they were prepared. Now in those days, too, the fast was much more demanding. You had to fast much longer time, first from midnight and then three hours before. Now the fast is very easy to observe, but perhaps that too has led people to take a too casual approach to the Holy Eucharist. But we have to restore that.

I know it's not popular in 2004. I had quite an experience in the Conference of Bishops in the United States over the question, but it's clear to me. I simply have to insist on it. Yeah. I want to tell you about a course that I have created for men to overcome pornography. It is called strive21.com slash Matt. You go there right now or if you text strive to 66866, we'll send you the link. It's 100% free.

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You won't regret it. All right. Let's see, I've got some lighthearted questions for you. What is your favorite restaurant in Rome? I don't get to restaurants as often as I used to. There's one nearby here called the Taverna Angelica, which I like very much. It's when there are so many good restaurants in Rome. I always say that... It's hard to find a bad one.

Exactly. Yes, it is. It's hard to find a bad restaurant. The Italians take food very seriously. It's not simply a question of eating something quickly, this kind of fast food mania. Although, unfortunately, it has had certain inroads here too. But I like that restaurant very much. And I'm a little, as I have to confess to you,

I'm a little out of touch with other restaurants. Sadly, at the time of COVID, a number of good restaurants closed because Rome became a ghost town in a certain way. And but so I have to be better informed. I'm sorry. That's good. What is one unimpressive hobby that you have? So sort of non-religious, non-impressive hobby that you do to unwind or have fun? Well, I I'm a great collector of books, I guess that, I suppose it could be impressive, but

probably, but I like very much to study of books on certain, especially topics and to be up to date on the latest writings. And one of the topics is the relation of the church and state and also the whole notion of law and so forth. And so I try to keep up with that. Other hobbies, I love walking. I take an hour's walk every day and would walk more. Is it hard to walk around incognito in Rome?

Actually, it's not much of a problem. I go out every morning, walk. It's not too far from here. And I must say most people don't pay any attention. I mean, I don't go dress like this. I have a simple black cassock. And but people and I don't usually I don't wear the cross either because there is there are certain people who could attack you for steal the cross or something and I wouldn't want the cross to be subjected to that but anyway no it's it's it isn't a problem at all very good well you should know that your

unimpressive hobbies are much more impressive than my unimpressive hobbies what so speaking of books then beside the Bible which books or authors have had a profound impact on you and what would you recommend to others to help deepen their faith? Early on when I entered the Miner's Seminary we began the year with a retreat and we had a spiritual director I was 14 years old but and he assigned us a book to read during the retreat and I was assigned the story, but he assigned us a book to read during the retreat, and I was assigned the story of a soul by St. Tres and Lucille. And I have to say that to this day, I continue to follow her little way and to meditate on

it. And she's just remarkable how grace was at work in this young woman who died in her early twenties, but there's so much there. I've also been helped so much by the writings of Blessed Columba Marmion. He has this remarkable way of conveying how it is, in fact, our Christian life is a living out of our baptism, of our communion with the Holy Trinity. And I have very much been enriched by his writings. He's been a bit forgotten. I think now people are getting

interested again and some of his books are being reprinted. He was Irish, but he wrote in French because he had joined a Belgian Abbey in the French-speaking part of Belgium in Bologna, Marzou. So he wrote in French, but his books are translated in English, for instance, Christ the Life of the Soul, Christ and His Mysteries. And then he has specific books on Christ the Life of the Monk, Christ the Life of the Priest, but he's been also a very influential author. I also have been very enriched by the writings of Dominic Prosper Guerrero-Gerge. He has this wonderful commentary on the Church year. The readings, of course, with the novice ordo are different sometimes from

what for a particular Sunday, but his whole his reflection on the on the liturgical year and so forth. That's the title of the work is, is the liturgical year. It's like thing in English, something like 15 volumes. But that has been a tremendous enrichment for me to Frank, thank you. One of my heroes is the late Cardinal Pell and I'm greedy for as many anecdotes from those who knew him. So tell me a bit about him and your relationship with him. Well I was blessed to have his friendship. We're quite different in personality but we enjoyed each other's company. He had a great sense of humor and he had a good way of lightning very heavy conversations, but not in a way to distract from the truth. But he was a real man of the church. He took very seriously the fact that he was a cardinal and that he had a very important responsibility for the church. And even after all he went through, I guess that's the

other thing I don't want to fail to mention. I will always be deeply moved by how he lived those over 400 days in prison in Australia, falsely accused. And thank God that the Supreme Court in Australia eventually found the injustice and declared him innocent. But he was simply a man of the Church, he was a man of the church. He was a man of Christ, a real churchman. And those diaries that he left us were- Beautiful.

Yes. And, yes, he could tease and it was, it was always enjoyable to be in his company. I was blessed that he came to see me the day before the surgery, after which he died. We had a wonderful conversation, but he was completely serene about the surgery. I was urging him to.

In Australia, they had done such an excellent job. He had already had two knees replaced and one hip. And I was urging him to have those same doctors do this last tip. But he wanted to stay in Rome. He felt a very strong duty as a Cardinal to be in Rome. And he said it to me. He said, we're in God's hands.

And of course, it's all, he said it to me, he said, we're in God's hands. And of course it's, it's true. See, he was completely at peace about, about the surgery. And I, I must say it was a terrible shock to, to hear that he had died just a few hours after it, but anyway, we, I'm counting on him now because he was, he was so loved the church so much that he's interceding. We often forget this, that we must pray for the dead in order to shorten any time that they may have in purgatory, but we often forget that the dead pray for us. They continue to love us and to care for us, and I'm counting on his powerful prayers for the church in this time.

Amen. Your Eminence, thank you so much. You're welcome.