Pints With Aquinas - Playing Satan, Christ is King, and Modern Protestantism (Jarret LeMaster) | Ep. 528

Episode Date: June 11, 2025

Jarret LeMaster is an American actor, producer, and director known for his dynamic presence in film, television, and digital media. He has starred in feature films such as Unplanned, Nefarious, and Turn Around Jake, and is recognized for his sharp comedic work with The Babylon Bee, where he portrays Satan in their popular satirical sketches. 🍺 Want to Support Pints With Aquinas? 🍺 Get episodes a week early, score a free PWA beer stein, and join exclusive live streams with me! Become an annual supporter at 👉 https://mattfradd.locals.com/support 💵 Show Sponsors:  👉 Seven Weeks Coffee – Use promo code MATT for up to 25% of your first subscription order + claim your free gift: https://sevenweekscoffee.com/matt 👉  Exodus 90 – Join Exodus 90 on August 15 for St. Michael's Lent: https://exodus90.com/matt 👉  Truthly – The Catholic faith at your fingertips: https://www.truthly.ai/ 👉 Hallow – The #1 Catholic prayer app: https://hallow.com/mattfradd  💻 Follow Me on Social Media: 📌 Facebook: https://facebook.com/mattfradd 📸 Instagram: https://instagram.com/mattfradd 𝕏 Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/Pints_W_Aquinas 🎵 TikTok: https://tiktok.com/@pintswithaquinas 👕 PWA Merch – Wear the Faith! Grab your favorite PWA gear here: https://shop.pintswithaquinas.com

Pines with Aquinas is brought to you by Truthly, which is a ground-breaking Catholic AI app built to help you know, live and defend the Catholic faith. Start your seven-day free trial today when you download Truthly on the App Store. Coming soon to Android. Satan cannot stand to be laughed at. Specifically in regard to playing Satan. Has there ever been a time where you're like, I don't know if we should be doing this? Yeah, that's a great question What does Babylon be do now when it feels like those in power or more of a conservative bent? You know, there's a good example that sort of has to do with you No, so you released that video with Dennis and the things he said about pornography

Baiting to animated pictures of pornography. I'm not doing something evil. That's correct. Yeah, I think that's despicable. Oh yeah, you went after him, Huy. Yeah, we did like three. One of your titles was, Dennis Prager says porn didn't cause issues in any of his three marriages. So okay, what was that like putting it all together and clicking publish? It was very awkward when we met his wife. Yeah.

That's right. You're in the wrong business if you're in satire regretting things. Yeah, we can always say, well, it's just a joke, dude. Yeah. That's right. You're in the wrong business if you're in satire, regretting things. Yeah, we can always say, well, it's just a joke, dude. Like get over it. And so when we say Christ is King, It's a real confusion.

Yeah, the Nick Fuentes kind of weaponization of Christ is King. You're a Protestant, I'm a Catholic. If I love you and I want you to be Catholic, I would want to talk about the blessed Virgin Mary in a way, let's say that you would not find immediately distasteful. Which by the way, you should. I mean, like, try to evangelize me.

But if I was to come to you and say, Mary's queen, and I said it with that tone of voice, and it had taken on this negative connotation where Catholics were essentially giving the middle finger to Protestants, clearly, I think it has become wrong. And I also think anti-Semitism can be obviously too broadly used. Like sometimes people will say of a Protestant, oh, he's anti-Catholic. Okay, wait, what does that mean? If you're a Protestant who rejects the Catholic church

because of what you think are its false teachings, does that make every Protestant anti-Catholic? Well, I probably shouldn't get into this. Well. Thank you so much for watching Pines with Aquinas. Before we get into the interview, I'd like to ask you to please consider subscribing. Over 58% of people who watch this show regularly

are still not subscribed. So please do it. It's a quick, free, easy way to support the channel. We really appreciate it. You're much better at improvised prayers than I am. I think it's because you're a Protestant. Do you know what I mean? I don't think so.

I thought your prayer was really good. If I was going to rate it, I would say it was like a three tomatoes. No, no, this is like, maybe I've got a whiskey, a water and a coffee. I got my water and whiskey. You know, it's kind of early for this, I would say, but that's okay. We don't have to admit that. Nobody knows. Seven AM. Yeah, that's early. Yeah, that's got Nobody knows that. It's 7 AM. Yeah, that's early. Yeah, we've got to get started. It's 5 o'clock somewhere.

Thank you for coming on my show. Yeah, thank you for having me. I'm honored to be here. When we met, I was like, I just I don't think I've met anyone as cool as you. I was telling my son Deacon he's here with us, and I was like, this may be one of the coolest guys I've ever met. Sorry for you. Yeah. of the coolest guys I've ever met.

Yeah. Sorry for you. Yeah. It's very few people you've met. Yeah, we need to work on that. You know, like, on this show, I interview some people who've, you know, because I want to talk to them, and they've got lots of things to say.

And there's some people I'm just like, I just really like this person, and want to talk to them, and that's it. And I'm sure you have a lot of great. Even if you have nothing to say, this would be worth it. I know you do. But I felt the same way. It was really nice to meet you.

And you look great with a bald head. Do you think you look good with a bald head? Well, I don't really have an option. But okay, so how, I want to know, when did you give up on it? Did you give up on it before it gave up on you is the question I have. It gave up on me about a year and a half

before I gave up on it. In question I have. It gave up on me about a year and a half before I gave up on it. In fact, my wedding photos are sort of devastating whenever I look at my wedding photos. It's awful because I was still buzzing it. I was still kind of like, but it was still, it was a cul-de-sac and I still had, you know, that much hair and it was just obvious like that it was all going.

And I also had this chin strap goatee that was just really on. But in all seriousness, you have a great sized head. People always say to me- You mean large? People who meet me say, you've got a huge head. Oh, do you really? Well, I always say-

Here, turn to the side. When your head looks this good, you want it as large as humanly possible. That's my life. I don't think you have a big head. But you've got a great head, and at least you've got the beard. Yeah, I do have a full beard.

That's one of those. I can't do the beard. Yeah, at all. I can beard. That's one of those. I can't do the beard. Yeah, I don't. The beard's okay, it's not. It looks like how, have you seen Matt Damon's beard? These days? It's bad. That's kind of what my beard looks like.

You know, a lot of those guys have bad beards. Like you think about it, not very many of them have good beards. I would say Matt Damon, Keanu Reeves' beard is kind of lame. It's really patchy. Although he's still good looking with it on. All right, so you're an actor. So here's a question for you.

You'd probably know more than me. My first thought was maybe they just have a bunch of yes men around them who are like, you look beautiful. But I also would think that if you're an actor, you have people being very direct with you about what they wanna see, what looks good. Oh yeah, no, so usually as an actor, which is one of the reasons why I'm a producer now,

but as an actor, you don't have any say over anything. So people are just telling you what to look like and where to stand and what to do. And it's very hard, I think, you know, to have any voice as an actor. I think you're just doing somebody else's stories. Like it's always, it's a challenge for sure. Yeah.

But you know, yeah, that's, I think people are overly critical. They're like, you need to lose, you know, maybe 15 pounds, you know, 10 pounds. What's the most offensive thing you were told? That I was thick. Actually, that was when I first got to Hollywood. This was interesting. A long time ago, I went to go meet with this manager and went to his house. It was a really weird meeting. I remember he was listening to gospel music, but he was like, didn't seem like the kind of person that would listen to... Snorting crack.

Yeah, it was like this kind of, it was like very strange, like a very dark place. But anyway, that's what he said. I read, did a few reads for him and he goes, aren't you just kind of thick for this? And I was like... And by thick, he meant physically or mentally? No. Either way is offensive. Yeah, I think I would say it's probably both. No, it was physically.

He's just, I think actors in general are like ectomorphic, like sort of like these really skinny people. So I feel like he could have said that so much better. We need you to get in shape. We would need that if you, something like, but you're just thick for this. I didn't know what that was meant. I guess that was thick.

Some people like thick, you know. I think it was Jim Gaffigan who said, I don't need to, and if it wasn't him, you can tell me, I'm not sure who it was. I don't wanna get in shape. I just, my goal is to look, to not look like I'm constantly wearing a bulletproof vest under this or something like that.

But I think thick, that's what I think. It's always a struggle though. Like I've never been a skinny guy, so it's always been one of those things. You look good. Well thanks. You look like you have broad shoulders. Gosh, what do you want?

What do we need? What do you need? You and I are married. I know, yeah. It's just great. Gavin McGinnis says, as you get older, your looks don't matter as much. You give them to your kids

and tell them to go do something with them. He's already done you. You've done what you need to do. Nothing else is necessary. Well, the looks were never helpful as a young person, so like, except for in getting my wife, which I'm not even sure that was helpful. I think it was just my personality that got my wife, you know. I mean, yeah, it's so true, isn't it? In fact, the first time I went out, I went on a date with Christina, or my wife, I told her we were sitting down at the Cheesecake Factory or something. I don't know where we were. Sounds like me, thick me, eating my cheesecake.

And it was, you know, that was about my style. That's about as high as I could go at the time. And so anyway, I just said, look, I am going to lose my hair. And I still had it. I just want you to know up front. We've got to be honest with each other. And she goes, I know. And so I had this baby chicken hair up there.

It was freshly hatched chick hair. And I was still trying to do the messy hair thing. It was back in the early 2000s when people were just doing like, I just mess it up. Grab some wax and just, you know, looked like I just got out of bed. And, but cool, you know, some people are still doing this. But anyway, that was it.

And it was like freshly had, you can see right through it. If you like, when, if I stood under a light, it was very, I was very conscious of that. It's interesting how, first of all, let's just give a shout out to long form discussions where we can just have the most boring topics that there's somehow worth listening to. It's funny how if you were to grow your hair out

three quarters of a centimeter, you'd look so much older. Isn't that weird? But then you shave it, you look super young. With super, well thank you. What is that? What is that? I don't know. I'm not just saying with you.

I mean, anybody like that friends who are bald when they shave, they look 10 years younger. It's weird. Yeah, it is weird. Well, I think the gray hair probably contributes and then there's yeah, if I grew my hair out and a quarter inch, I'd look like both of the clown. Yeah, I don't I suspect you're like me in some regard. I don't mean to psychoanalyze you because I don't know you and so you can tell me. But I don't like when people compliment me. I don't know why. Me and Jesus are working on that. But you're a very good actor. We can talk about the movie you

were in or movies, but before we do that, I want to talk about the movie you were in, or movies, but before we do that, I want to talk about your role as Satan in The Babylon Bee. I mean, it's just so great. I don't know if it just feels so ad lib and authentic, which I presume it had to be. Surely, it's actually not at all. It's not at all ad lib.

Yeah, in fact, most of the stuff at The Babylon Bee is very book, like it's on book, like so you can't, you can't ad lib there. In fact, in comedy, that's very common. Like you, you don't find people improvising, you know, it's not the actor, it's really the writer that, that is like, and the actor's interpreting the writer. And so that's where comedy sort of comes from. And if you were to go to, I auditioned a few times for Modern Family and I remember back in the day, Modern Family's like classic, like it's really famous for being this way where you had to be on book.

Like you couldn't, even in the audition, you had to memorize every single detail of the line. And so I went in and I didn't have it all memorized. Like it was, I was out of practice in terms of my memorization because I quit acting for like 15 years and I got a couple of auditions in that time. And then when I was on modern family, um, auditioning, didn't book it because I didn't memorize it.

The guy gave me an hour to go memorize it and then come back and audition again. You can be like, yeah, but look, see how I'm, oh yeah, see, yeah, I'm funny. Yeah. Cause they're like, no, you're not. We're funny. So and that's got me. The bee's like that, too. It's like, you're not that funny. We're funny.

OK, then. Well, then it's an extra compliment that you're able to take a script and make it seem like you're just spitting it out. Yeah, well, yeah, that's the goal. You want it to really seem like you're just making it up, as you go. And I don't know.

It's weird. I don't think I was always able to do that. I don't know what happened. It was just over time. It sort of became a thing, like I was able to do. But, you know. So do you work full time for the Babylon Band? I do, yeah.

My official title over there is producer of, what is it? I'm actually, my official title is executive producer of video content or something like that. That's like the name. But really, I just produce all of the sketch comedy that we do. Wow. And so, yeah, so that's my.

That's really cool. It's a great, yeah, it's a great job. What's one of the recent ones you've done? I saw one recently. Well, I saw the one about the firefighter in the wheelchair. Yes. Do you have something to do with that? And tell us what that is.

I mean, yeah, I have a small part in it. I helped put some of the details together for it. Give people the basic concepts so they see why it's funny. So if you remember when the Palisades fire was raging, there was this famous interview with this lesbian fire chief who said, basically, if your husband is in a burning building and I show up and I can't carry him, it's his fault. Do you remember this? Yeah.

So we created one where it was a paraplegic firefighter. I think the other thing that was said either by her or somebody else is that the person feels comforted when they see someone like them. That's right. Whether that had to do with sex or race. That's right. So if you're in a burning building

and someone that looks like you comes to save you, then you are more likely to be comforted by that person. Not true at all. I don't feel like it matters. I would let an alien take me out of the building and likely to be comforted by that person. Not true at all. I don't feel like it matters. I would let an alien take me out of the building and be way more comforted if he were able to do it. The devil. Maybe not.

He shows up in a flame like, come with me. Yeah, no, reject that right away. But yeah. I think I'll stay here, thanks. I'm good. Yeah, yeah. But it was, yeah, it's funny, man. And so we created this one where it was a guy in a wheelchair.

And he's like, you know, some people think, you know, that a guy like me shouldn't be a firefighter, because I can't lift people. But if you end up in a fire, then it's your fault. Yeah. And then at the end, he's like asking somebody to turn the hose on. Because he can't reach it. He's like trying to throw something fault. Yeah. So essentially. And then at the end, he's like asking somebody to turn the hose on because he can't reach it. He's like trying to throw something away.

Yeah. Which, I mean, that's one of the more kind of like, I think it's one of the harsher jokes that we've done. Oh, it was so funny. Yeah. We do, we get harsh. We get bitey on occasion. What does bitey mean?

Well, I mean, I know what it means. I know what it means. I just want to know, like, does it mean more likely to cause offense? Is that what we mean? Well, I mean, I know what it means. I know what it means. I just want to know, like, does it mean more likely to cause offense? Is that what we mean? Yeah, I think the the kind of satire that really stinks, you know, like we talked about the bee sting, but yeah, it's like, very good, you know, that's kind of come on, every once in a while, we get a little bit like that when we kind of a little bit like that when we kind of. So are you required by the Babylon Bee to churn out so many videos a month or? So there's no requirement. But we go through phases where sometimes it's,

we're cranking out two or three a week. And then other times where we just aren't doing anything. So like we spent about six to eight months last year shooting our January 6th, the most deadliest day, which I produced with Kyle and Brandon and all those guys. And we basically spent all that time shooting and editing January 6. And then we released it, and then all of a sudden

the tide sort of shifted. And now we're back into sketch again, which I'm really grateful for because I love the sketch stuff. I think it's like the short form, five minute sketch stuff is great. I'd love to make a narrative movie. I like those mockumentaries too,

but I like, I mean, I'd love to just do like a comedy, like a dumb and dumber. Can I suggest? Yes, yes. I'm sure this is the very annoying thing where people are like, I got a joke for your set. Let's do it, let's do it. Let's do it.

I want you to work with Babylon Bee to come up with a seemingly pro-porn advertisement where you talk about all the negative effects the way a drug commercial does. Erectile dysfunction may cause anxiety. Loneliness, you will die alone. That's actually a great idea. You'll be emasculated.

But you've got these guys on their computers looking happy the whole time or running through a field. Wouldn't that be amazing? I love that. You would shame pornography, but you would make it look. So there was a, we get sponsorships on occasion and I think Covenant Eyes had reached out to us at some point to do something.

But they also went, they had another one that was really good too. They actually do really well with comedy. Yeah, they paid a lot of money for that advert. Yeah. As you might know. Yeah, they should pay us a lot of money. They should.

Yeah, that's what they should do. They should do that. Hey, covenant us. If you're watching. If you're watching, pay us a lot of money and we'll make a great commercial for you. That's interesting. But okay, but what's the kind of, I guess what I'm asking is, do you have a quota that you're required

to churn out from the Babylon B or is it something where you sit down every quarter and you plan out the goals that you all agree on? We're probably three months out, maybe two months, not even three. We're probably, now let's not be, I'm being generous, we're like a month out. And a lot of it is because we're riding the news cycle. Well, that's what I was gonna say. You couldn't be doing it three months out, could you? Yeah, there's sketches that are evergreen.

So there's ones that are just really funny for a long time. We're making fun of something that is not in the news, you know, like, um, let's see what's a, what's a recent sketch that we did. Oh, well, we just, well, it's kind of in the news, but we did one that's kind of like a maja sketch. Like, um, it's, it's like make America healthy again, where all these people are coming together to make the food pyramid. And there's a scientist in the room and he's like, well, that's not technically. And it's like, it's like big farm and then captain crunch.

I will not under any circumstances say that this food pyramid is based on science. This food pyramid is based on science. Oh, I love that. And we're all just sitting around and he's like, you know, he's like, what should, what should be on the base of the, the food pyramid? And, you know, the, the big farm guys like bread, you know, and then the captain crunch guy is like,

well, 11 bowls of cereal, you know, like whatever. Yeah. And so if you look at that old pyramid, it's like ridiculous, like what they put on there. Yeah. And so it's really a funny sketch and, but that one will last for a long time, even though it's kind of in the news right now,

that's kind of like something that we're all sort of aware of that But that one will last for a long time. Even though it's kind of in the news right now, that's kind of like something that we're all sort of aware of that's probably gonna last for a few years. But there's a few that are just like responses, like my Satan sketches sometimes. Like the one Sam, what was his name? Sam Smith when he did the Grammys.

I don't know if you remember that. See, right. So that- I'm not cultured. You'll never go back and watch the Satan sketch when he responds to Sam Smith in the Grammys. Cause Sam Smith came out. And if you know who Sam Smith is, he's a,

he's like a gay pop star, right? And so he- He's not in my legs full of interest. You don't listen to gay pop stars. Not on purpose. You're not a big Scissor Sisters fan. They're not what it is. Well, they're really great. If if you're into drag queen music.

But yeah, so Sam Smith came out and he performed at the Grammys and it was what was the song, it was that song that was all about, it was called Unholy, I think is the name of the song, which it's incredible that we're doing this on a side note, that we're allowing people to sing in our culture, like on the biggest stage, songs called Unholy about adultery and about all this stuff. The whole thing is about adultery and how dad leaves and goes and then comes back, but it's all a good thing. Oh, God have mercy.

I know. It's like a terrible thing. But he comes out, right? Yeah. Obviously, him or you? Well, Sam Smith comes out dressed in this sort of drag devil costume, you know? And it's like sort of negligee. And on top of it, he's like fat.

So he's like spilling out this thing. But that's beautiful, too. You know, you're beautiful at any size. Even if you're thick. I could do this. I could play him. No, but there's a... And then there's like a trans guy that's, you know, like up there doing it too.

Anyway, so it was just ridiculous. And so Satan came out and responded and was like, I just want to, you know, officially distance myself from what Sam did. Whatever happens to subtlety, like I don't. How do we get here? You know, I do not wear a top hat. I don't know where he got that. You know, like, so he's just like, I really feel strongly.

I love that we should distance ourselves from whatever this was. The joke being if Satan needs to distance himself from you, you've gone way past the line. Well, that's often the joke with Satan is like, you've gone too far, you know, like the left is just really gone too far here. Too much on the nose.

Yeah. Baby murder. I'm good with. But this, you know, come on. Yeah. So that's kind of our joke with with old old sticks or whatever is, you know, like the old stump. What do you call them?

Like there's one, the old man. We call him old hairy legs. Old hairy legs. Me and a friend in Australia. And I forget, I think a saint said something to the effect of, you know, Satan cannot stand to be laughed at, to be scorned, to be mocked. And so I guess my question for you specifically in regard to playing Satan is, what kind of pushback do you get? Has it ever been a time where you're like, I don't know if we should be doing this or if you're confident that no, no

this is the way to go. Like why is it effective in not even, not just exposing these cultural perversions, but even kind of furthering the gospel. Yeah, so I look at it like that. That's a great question, because I look at it like it's an opportunity for us to sort of tear down the ideological sort of, I guess, the, you know, the, what do you call, what am I saying? Like the sacred cows of the culture.

And so we, yeah, so Satan, you know, I think maybe there's been a few times that we've gotten really close to the edge, but maybe not. I mean, like, that's the thing. I don't ever really feel like it's too close, but we did one where it was Satan's story hour at a local library, right? So we had a bunch of kids in. You see my lips are getting ready to laugh.

I didn't even mean to do that. They just do that on their own. It's a great concept, but we had to get a bunch of kids in there with the devil. Oh! And so that maybe was the harshest thing. So I had a bunch of kids and I was like, I let them watch them put, like, okay, watch me get my makeup on. And then they were all in there and, you know, Satan shows up and, you know, this librarian, crazy leftist librarian is like, we have a special guest today. They might look a little bit different than what we're used to, but let's remember to listen, learn, and accept them for who they really are.

Well, hello, children. Yeah, so how did you have to prep the children before that? Oh, just watch and get the makeup on. I think if I was sending one of my kids into this, I would say, you know how Christ is victorious, King of the universe, we worship Him, right? So Satan hates Him. So we're going to make fun of Satan. That's what we're going to do. That's what this is. I think that's how I would... Yeah. But I think I'd be reluctant to maybe send my kids in. I don't know.

No, I agree. But I got a bunch of homeschool kids. I just totally ignored that impulse and got as many of my friends to bring their children in as possible. That's how it worked for me. No, but it is interesting how... Yeah, sometimes with Satan, it's Sir Thomas More that said that actually, the quote about Satan can't stand to be mocked. And so my position on this has been interesting because I have had some interaction with some of the dark spiritual stuff and I've experienced some kind of demonic presence, I've been part of some kind of deliverance ministry before. And so I'm sensitive to those things.

But with the devil, it's weird because he doesn't seem to come around when we make fun of him. And so when we mock him hardcore, I don't get a lot of spiritual kickback. I don't see a lot of that stuff. So it's weird. And I think Sir Thomas More is right. And I could be wrong. Is it Mallory? Sir Thomas Mallory or Sir Thomas More? I think you're right. St. Thomas More.

I think that's who it was. And so he said that the devil, that proud spirit, he cannot stand to be mocked. I think that's how he said it. So I haven't had a lot of that, but I do enjoy mocking the devil because, you know, he's our enemy. And I think that is one of the greatest ways. I mean, it seems like... I know, I don't know if you speak on behalf of the Babylon Bee, so I don't want to get you into trouble, but speak a little bit about its evolution from just Christian satire site to now clearly, like, more of a conservative, though we recognize most of y'all are Christians, so we're going to keep kind of appealing to you somewhat, but, uh, side. That's what it feels like to

me. There's been a shift, right? Where they've, there's a new understanding of what they are. And maybe that was 10 years ago that that happened. Maybe nothing recently. I mean, that might've been three or four years ago. And I think it's been sort of like a strategic shift, I think for the business, you know, because like we get a lot more viral when we do things that are political. I just love how honest that statement was. Thank you. Well, it's true.

And I think so, yeah, we get more traction. So we decided to sort of move that direction. Unfortunately, well, I think fortunately or unfortunately, like I think some of the Adam Ford started the Babylon Bee. Is that the fellow with the beard who's got blonde hair and is into Chessadin? No. Yeah. So that was Ethan. Ethan, is he still around?

He's not. No, so he's gone. He didn't die though. He's no longer with us. Okay. He died as a joke. Like he did. What was that?

David Batman? David Batman. He's no longer with us. No, he's anyway, it was a meme, but no, Ethan was. Dark hair fella. I'm gonna stop guessing. You just tell me who he is. I'll tell you.

All right. So he's no longer with the Babylon B either. He's with not the B. So Adam Ford started it in like 2016, and very quickly afterwards, Kyle Mann started doing headlines for him. And so that's where Kyle Mann came in, and he's the guy, he's the dark haired guy with the goatee. And so he's sort of, he's the now chief and the editor. And then in that time, I think Joel Berry started as well he's one of the other guys and I think have you've talked with Joel have you ever seen

you ever met Joel? I've never. Oh you should. Was he the fella on Joe Rogan? No that's Seth so Seth came on. I'm gonna I'm so sorry I know nothing clearly about your company except a few things I've seen. Yeah it's okay. Well that fella Seth you said? Yes. On Rogan? Yes. Could you go give him a high five for me? He won't care, but I'm so grateful for him He did such an excellent job. Yeah, he was on yeah, he won't care. Yeah An affectionate high five no, he will he'll he'll love that actually he's a great guy, but he's the owner now Okay, so he bought it from Adam Ford, I don't know, 2018, 2019. And so then Kyle, you know,

Kyle and Seth were doing their thing. I started like three and a half years ago. So it's, I'm a little bit of a latecomer. When they started their video content, Ethan and Kyle were doing it. Ethan left, which very quickly afterwards, I think it was like six months later. And then I stepped in with a team.

There's a big team. Not big. There's like seven people. But like it's our director, Brandon Toy. And he's the Asian guy. So if you ever see the CCP one where, have you ever see our sketch where the CCP guy is saying, just use pronouns? He's like, just use whatever. Just like,. Just like, just like, what's it?

Misgender them. You know, like he's talking about fighting the American army. First technique is to shout wrong pronoun at American troop. Watch this. He him, he him, you are he him. You are he him.

I can see clearly. You are bearded man. He him. It's very funny. It's like so funny and racist in a funny way. Anyway, so yeah. So he, yeah. So there's a team of about seven of us.

And I came on as the producer probably, I guess three years ago, three and a half years ago. But Seth, Seth bought it and Seth and Dan Dillon are now the owners. They also own Not the Bee. They also own I think seven other companies. And so Seth goes out, he goes on podcasts and things like that. But I really loved that one viral clip that Seth had from Joe Rogan where he said, you

know, Joe was trying to nail him on abortion. And he just goes, well, killing innocent humans is always wrong. Abortion kills innocent humans. Therefore, abortion is always wrong. And Joe Rogan didn't have anything to say to that. It was a pretty amazing moment, actually. He did handle it very well. Yeah, he really did.

Yeah. Yeah. He's a great guy. Smart guy. Really funny. Yeah. You know who's my favorite at satire is Andrew Claven. Is he? Really? He's your favorite?

Oh my god. You know, it's funny. I'm not very familiar with his stuff. He is one of the most beautiful men. Is he? I've had him on the show and he's just so kind and so gracious. So he does one show for Daily Wire every week. Right. Which is nice because who wants to like open up their mouth and have all that dung shoveled

into them daily? Me, but I've tried not to for a long time. But Claven is just such a good fellow. And anyway, he starts every show of his with a satire piece that he's written. And I just think he's terrific. I need to look into him. I've watched him, but he's like the lesser known

David Meier guy. Yeah, I shouldn't probably say that, but yeah. No, he is. I think it's probably true. Yeah, it is. But he's just terrific. We had Spencer on the show. We had him on our podcast a long time ago.

I guess it's gotta get awkward for y'all when you're in a room and you're trying to decide what to mock, because that brings to the fore what each of you are politically committed to. So let's say one of you has this idea to mock Vance for how he acted with Zelensky, or Zelensky for how he acted towards Trump. You're obviously coming forward

and showing your political cards there or where you lean. And then I wonder what that's like as people hash that out. Cause you're not just hashing out what I think individually and what I think is important, but what we as a company ought to be portraying. Yes, so the bee's voice, you're kind of hitting on the bee's voice. And that is a massive conversation for us.

Like that's all we really care about. And so there have been opportunities to work and partner with other people. And we've not done that because of the bee's voice, because we don't want to dilute it. And so it matters probably more than anything else in the bee because it's been curated over the course of these last years. And it would be very easy to dilute it and make it

something that it's not. So therefore, it kind of limits our ability to partner to some degree. And you don't have to tell me what they are, but do you have hard and fast sort of boundaries as like, we don't do this, we do do this? Because I could see that stifling comedy, but at the same time, if the bee's voice

is to mean anything, there has to be some sort of banks of the river, as it were. You know, we don't really have any of that. We'll make fun of the LGBTQ. We make fun of, I guess we make fun of handicapped people, but not on purpose. But you're not making fun of handicapped people. What you're doing is you're making fun of that particular

individual who the lesbian fire chief. That's what you're doing is you're making fun of that particular individual who we're making the lesbian fire chief That's what you're making. You're making fun of the idea That one could be a handicap and also yeah You know it you know that's what it is What we mock is usually the people that hold these things true, right? So like that that your identity matters more than anything else that if you you're, you know, intersectionally, if you land at a certain point, you're higher, like you should have a higher voice

or like a more valuable voice. And we mock those people. And so it makes it, on the surface level, if you're not thinking very deeply, it makes it look like we're making fun of a race or we're making fun of, you know, a gender, a sexual orientation or something like that. We're not, like ever.

We're always making fun of the people that think things that like what cultural Marxism or neo-Marxism or whatever. So I mean, that is our perspective. And as far as our boundaries go, it really, there really aren't any boundaries except, but I'll say this about comedy. And I've learned this over the last like four years, five years, and I did comedy before too as an actor,

but like, you know, the good joke is sort of just hanging out there in the ether. And really good observational comedians can like find that joke and pluck it out of the air and then present it like they can word it properly. Like they're really good at crafting a joke, right? Like there's people that can build it, but the subject, the subversion,

is just sitting there in front of everybody and everybody can see it. And the reason why it's a good joke is because we're able to communicate it better than other people or whatever. That's really what it is. It's taking that thing that everybody's sort of thinking in the back of their mind and being able to take it out, write it out, and present it.

And so that's good comedy. So in terms of us kind of looking at the situation with Zelensky or like, oh, we have all these different perspectives, there's all kinds of good jokes. Probably not. There's probably one really good joke in there. And the subversion of that, the subversion of the situation, that the kind of, how do we take this situation

and flip it upside down? What's the funniest thing? That's probably just one thing. And so that's why the Babylon Bee is what it is, and why good comedy is what it is, and why not everybody can do good comedy. So what you'll see is people taking these things and gosh, I don't wanna slam anybody,

but like there are certain movies that have been created in the conservative space that are comedies, right? Like, and they're, but they're just so on the nose and they're so not funny and they're so not subversive and they're trying to be funny and they're making fun of the transgender thing. And it's like, you know, it's sort of late in the game. I mean I don't want to speak for you but I mean I thought Lady Balls was a terrible movie but I don't think but for me it wasn't terrible because it was too

on the nose. I just didn't like it. I don't know why I didn't like it. Yeah now that's not a knock on Daily Y. I mean you have hits and you have misses. And I thought, for example, Am I Racist was just brilliant, obviously. Right, in contrast. Matt Walsh's show, the judge, I guess I just love Matt Walsh. I mean, he's terrific. He's very funny. Yeah.

But, and God bless them. But I mean, you know what? Maybe that commercial about Lady Ballers did more for the cultural conversation than the movie itself. I thought they should pay whoever edited that because the commercial was very funny. Yeah. But the movie just wasn't funny.

And then it was kind of like a weird joke about abortion in it. And I'm like, no, your audience, my gosh. No, no, like, and it's like, you know, it's like, you know, dick jokes. You know what I mean? Like, I didn't, I forget, but I didn't even watch the whole thing. I was just like, I was so, I did not watch the whole thing. I was just like, I was so- I did not watch the whole thing. I have friends in it.

I know the producers of it. Yeah. I think that what they tried to do is create sort of like a Trey Parker, like, you know, South Park kind of thing. And the problem is on the conservative side, you can't go as far as the South Park guys go in the dirty kind of humor.

Oh, the dirty humor. Yeah. Which is kind of what they're sort of hinting at, you know? I see. And so I don't know. So they wanted to have it without going all... You can't go that far. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So either do or don't. Don't half-ass it, maybe. Or just don't. Yeah. Like, you know, like be classy and... Yeah. Because I think in contrast to what you said with Am I a you know, like be classy and, cause I think in contrast to what you said with, am I racist?

Like, I think that's. That was one of the funniest, most brilliant. And Justin Falk, I don't know if you know Justin. Do you know what's so funny is that that movie, it felt like just did to the sort of race hustling game, what is a woman did to the sort of race hustling game, what is a woman did to the transgender movement. It just put a nail through the heart of both of them.

It almost feels like, and maybe I'm wrong, because we've already discovered I'm not cultured and don't really understand what's happening outside of these four walls, right? But it feels like if that movie would have come out today, it feels like, oh, we just missed, because we're done. And that could be Trump's elected now, and all this DEI stuff's being overturned.

Well, and I think some of that has to do, is as a result of, am I racist? I think it really fed it. And the joke's old now. You know what I'm saying? Because we won, it's like, we don't need that joke anymore. fed it and the joke's old now. Like you know what I'm saying? Because we won, like it's like, we don't need that joke anymore. That's exactly right.

Even the conversation I feel like we're done with, because I just had this wonderful lady on the show, she's a lawyer named Marcella Burke and she's responsible for like suing doctors and people for doing these awful. And a lot of those, the clips that we released from that were based around this subject and they just didn't do that well. And not cause of her, cause she was brilliant. But I really think it's cause like, yeah, we're kind of, we're moved, we're on.

I mean, you're right, that's evil. But everybody knows that that's evil now. I might be overstating it, but it feels like that a bit. And actually when Daily Wire sort of insinuated that they were one of the main reasons this transgender movement is being overthrown and people made fun of them for that, I actually think they're right.

I actually really do. I think Matt Walsh's video and them supporting him in that. You winced like you were gonna disagree. No, no, I actually agree. I think that the Daily Wire, so I think the B, I think the B was the start of this, this subversion. Oh, I see, I see why you're asking. I actually do.

Okay. No, and I say, it's funny, I'm not bragging. However, if I were to, it would sound like this. I don't know, since you're doing my accent. Right. Yeah, but I, no, So I think back in 2016, when Adam Ford and Kyle started writing jokes, when it was really taboo to say these things about gender,

because they were, we always say we have two gender, we had like two jokes, not two genders, but two jokes. There are two gender. So we always say, well, we only have two jokes. So if we discover a third one, we'll let you know. And it was always like, I identify as, you know, whatever. And then I can't remember the other joke. It was like, that was the only joke.

We had one joke. Sorry. Yeah, like you identify as a fire extinguisher or an alien or something. That's your point, right? That you just sort of show the insanity of it. Yeah, we started doing those jokes and it was even with like, I mean, this was later,

but Leah Thomas, we did a news article where it was Leah Thomas, it was a joke about swimming. And there was, it was like a shark enters a female race or something and just eats everybody or something like it. Look at that form, you know, like it was that kind of stuff. And it was like, you know, shark who identifies as a woman enters a race and wins, you know, by eating everyone. Yeah, I love it.

It's a great joke. I don't remember it. Is it, was it a video or an article? So it was both. It was an article and a video. And that was a long time ago. And then I think You know Justin and Matt Did?

What is a woman? And that really changed the conversation And then so on the conservative side, I mean, I didn't realize that the Babylon B did an article called. What is a woman? No, we did we I don't remember the basic thrust of it But our whole joke was the transgender thing forever. And then I think, you know, and who knows, it was all sort of germinating at the same time. And so I think that they did definitely move the needle.

I think the bee moved the needle. And I think then you've got Dave Chappelle and a lot of these comedians that finally kind of came around to starting mocking this kind of stuff. But that wasn't until like 2022 or something, 2021. And so it was a little bit later. But that cultural shift, and it was weird when the good comedian

started picking up on it. Yeah, Gervais. Right, Ricky Gervais. Brilliant. When he went after the Oscars. Oh yeah. The best thing that's ever been filmed. Like, it was amazing. It was unbelievable.

And I think he changed the Oscars. Like, I watched it this year. But anyway, so like when we start mocking these people, which is what I think we have to do, mock them back into their little holes, that's when people start recognizing the idiocy. They start seeing it. They're like, oh my gosh, you're right. You're right. You're right.

And then it sort of shifted. And I think it created the cultural move that we have now. And I think the jokes over. Were you around back in the day when you started to make fun of the, again, we're not making it, see, I know that I'm overstating this and it's probably boring people, but I never want to

mock anybody. No. And I don't just say that to sound polite. I mean, if there's a fellow here who thinks he's a Sheila, I kind of want to hug him. I don't know what happened in your life. I love you. I want the best for you. Of course.

What we're mocking are these ideas that prey upon the vulnerable, like these people who are falling into these things. But were you around when you were releasing those articles and videos back in the day? And how terrifying was it when you were like, publish? And how much do you need to maintain that feeling in order to keep crushing it? Do you know what I mean? How much are you willing to offend your friends that believe these things? Or, you know? Yeah.

Like, that's where, when I first started, it was a shocking thing, because I was in ministry forever. And in ministry, you're not trying to offend anyone. You're like trying to love everybody. You're trying to make sure everyone feels welcome. Even if you disagree with them, you're like, listen, I'll listen to you. Let's sit down and have a conversation. When you're in this space, you are going to say something that will offend you on purpose in order to tell a good joke and to show how ridiculous your perspective is.

And that can be very offensive. And when I was first starting my personal experience with this, we did a joke about, we did a sketch, it was an army recruitment video, where I was a drill sergeant, and Kyle was this like weak, soft, LGBTQ dude, and the drill sergeant was going around like saying like, you are special just the way you are.

Don't let anyone tell you any different. You are beautiful in any size. Your two moms are proud of you. And then at the end it was like, army strong. That means diversity. And it was like obviously a slam on kind of the direction of the army and the cartoon that came out. And the fact that there's DEI in the military, the last place where there should be a meritocracy,

like, that is ridiculous. And so we were making fun of all that. And it was a funny video, but it offended all of my friends. And I lost friendships. It created major problems with, like, us personally. It was stuff that I had to, like, grieve over. It was awful. Like, to like grieve over. It was awful. I offended people I knew.

And, but now- Did you know it was gonna be that way when you clicked publish? I sort of had a, I was like, oh no, like this is gonna be really bad. Yeah. And yeah, I did have that feeling. The reason I asked about maintaining that sense of dread

as you publish, it seems that maybe I'm wrong because I don't know much about satire, but it seems like the point of satire is to make fun of what is ridiculous for the sake of truth, right? So if you're not feeling a sense of dread as you make fun of what's ridiculous, then maybe that's a sign that you're not actually being honest enough or you're only making fun of what's ridiculous in this small quadrant

over here that people aren't really paying attention to because it's safe. Yes. You also want to make fun of things for the sake of making fun of things. So tell me more about that satire. So SNL got into this trap, you know, like where they wouldn't make fun of certain things and they only stayed in this area because they didn't want to offend anybody. And remember, this was like until like,

like two months ago, they started coming out when Donald Trump got into office and the culture shift happened. They're like, oh my gosh, we have to make fun of some of this stuff now. And so they were not funny for a long time. Cause they had all these sacred cows that they wouldn't tear down. They had these things that were ideological kind of idols. And so I don't know, it's always a danger.

I think as a satirist to to get to the place where you're so comfortable, or to get to the, especially when you're winning, or you just mock a certain group, and I don't, I think it's really challenging. And in fact, maybe our identity as the Babylon Bee is in a place where we're sort of trying to figure out what's the next thing to make fun of.

So yeah, and we're doing, I think we're doing a good job. I think it's just one of those, you just gotta make fun of what the funniest part is. Like, find that thing that's hanging down. And if it offends your constituency, then so be it. We offend Catholics all the time. You know, like, we offend the Mormons a lot, even though they have a thick skin, then. The Mormons really have a thick skin. I don't think they have a thick skin. I think they just, I don't know. I feel like they pretend to be overly nice.

And I think maybe that's, I don't like it. Okay. Yeah. All right, tell me more about that. Well, I don't know if there's a sort of religious indifference-ism to them, where they believe that Catholics and Protestants and Christians are going to enter heaven, even if it's a lesser form of heaven,

it'll still be better than we could possibly experience on this earth. And so maybe because of that, they're less interested in bringing us into Mormonism, maybe the way the Jews are less interested in bringing the gentiles into Judaism. I don't know if it's like that. But no, like what I'm saying about your prophet, if you're not offended by it, you're either lying or you're not hearing what I'm saying. I think he was a huckster or demonically inspired. That's what I think. And I think that's what every Christian has to think or mentally ill, one of those three. So just stop pretending not to be offended or stop misunderstanding me.

Or engage me on this conversation. Yeah, some of them are. Some of them are. And there are really obviously intelligent Mormons, just like they're intelligent everybody. OK, I want to get to the Catholicism bit, but before I do, yeah, because I was thinking that maybe the Babylon Bee is now in the position with Trump in power. In an analogous sense, it's where CNN was when Biden got in power.

Yeah. Because I imagine most people are watching CNN to dump on Trump, and now Biden's in in and they're like, what's our identity? Right. So this is going to be really interesting to see. What does Babylon be do now when it feels like those in power or more of a conservative bent? Yeah. Well, hopefully we'll have we'll make a heck of a lot more money. Yeah, no, no, I know you're joking, but I hope that you do. I'm just, so yeah. No, I think you're right. I think that's a serious question.

Because now it's no longer safe, right? Because if we're right and we think the DEI stuff, the trans stuff is like, it's okay, we're done. What do you now look to, to criticize? Yeah. And it seems like it's gonna have to be stuff on the right. Yeah. So maybe-

The cannons shift with who's in power, for sure. Yeah. And that's to your point earlier, this is why SNL stopped being funny is they didn't change where the cannons were pointed, right? No. Well, they kept gaslighting us and saying that we were punching down,

but they were the ones in power. And so that's the crazy part. They're like, you're punching in. You've got the universities, you've got Hollywood, you've got big tech, you've got government. In what way are you speaking truth to power? That's right. You are the power.

They're like, no, no, we're a small resistance made up of Hollywood and the American government. The FBI. The FBI, the American government. The FBI. The FBI, the DOJ. We are the resistance. It's like, against what? Yeah.

Against that one racist in Alabama. That's right. There are actual racists in Alabama. He's's Jeff. But Jeff is not the powerful. That's so funny. I love it. No, it's true.

So OK, then tell me about times, maybe recently, where you have kind of turned the cannons on things that have pissed off your crowd and what that experience is like. You know, there's a good example that sort of has to do with you. Oh. So you released that video with Dennis Prager.

Oh, yes. Yes, yes. Where he, and I don't know how many times people have talked to you about this, but when he talked about pornography and the things he said about pornography, and so we wrote like a bunch of jokes about Dennis Prager and people not wanting to shake his hand anymore. Okay, so the point was, all right, let me preface it. He made some remarks. Can I just first say, because it's what's funny is he came on my show and hung himself.

I kept trying to give him more rope or to cut him down and he kept climbing back up to do it. But I feel like I'm one of his biggest defenders, even after that. Because I love the man. He was a pleasure to talk to. And he's stated that he's of the opinion that if someone is involved in child pornography,

they should be executed and things like that. So I think there's people who are really, I think some of the things he said were despicable and wrong. I think that's false. But it was like two guys having a conversation and just sort of speaking freely and again, I kept, yeah. So don't get me wrong, I think he's dead wrong. But I also, yeah, I also see the ways

he's been maybe mischaracterized because it's not like he's like, yeah, child porn's great. But then he did say masturbation was fine. And I was like, yeah, I think it's evil. And he's like, I think it's great. So anyway, so that's where the Babylon Bee came in. And tell us. Hey, Dennis.

And they were doing, hey, chief, in the office. No, I'm not. Oh, yeah, you went after him hard. Yeah, we did like three. Because I remember one of your titles was Dennis Prager says, and now I'm not getting this exactly right. And you can correct me if you remember what it was, but Dennis Prager says that pornography is good for-

Hasn't affected. His last three marriages that weren't his fourth either. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. So, okay, what was that like putting that together and clicking publish? It was very awkward when we met his wife and spoke with, and so recently-

Why did you have to meet his wife? Not about this. Not, no. She's like, I'm gonna have a meeting with anyone that said this about our marriage. No, we, okay, so we totally paved... We built a bridge back with Dennis Prager. He did say something like we had heard his reputation, and I feel... We all felt really bad about that because we love Dennis too, and he's been such a rock on this side of things,

and he speaks truth a lot, obviously. And I love his Bible commentaries are really interesting. obviously, and I love his Bible commentary, it's really interesting, like my father-in-law loves him. Like, you know, so he's sort of one of our heroes. And so, you know, anyway, so I just wanted to say that too, but we reached out and- Okay, so you dropped it. Could you, before you talk about reaching out and making a bridge, what was the aftermath like

for y'all after you did that? And how much regret was there? I don't think we really- Because I didn't go was the aftermath like for y'all after you did that and how much regret was there? I don't think we really- Because I didn't go after him nearly the way y'all went after. No. And we get, we never really regret things. Like, it's just like, cause I mean like- You're in the wrong business if you're in satire

regretting things. Yeah, we can always say, well, it's just a joke, dude. Like get over it. It may be true, but it's a joke. So we often have that as our defense and we'll just sort of laugh. Like our job is to sit in the corner and laugh at everybody as they're doing all their stuff.

So like, you know, some people think it's the coward's way out. I don't, I think it's perfectly normal. But yeah, so we did have a bit of a heat, you know, he was mad at us, like he had said a few things. I think he interacted with Seth or, you know, and Marissa, those people were all interacting like a bit. And then, you know, like he even stated,

I think that we had ruined, like we had heard his reputation, which I was like, well, I think it's what you said, sort of hurt you, maybe you did. Yes, that is what happened. And so maybe you should have been more aware of what you were saying. But we eventually, I think it had been a year since those jokes and they invited me as Satan

to host the PragerU gala in LA. And so I dressed as the devil. And they just roasted Prager all night hardcore until they made me leave. We just made porn jokes. No, it was funny. We did have some of those written in the script and we were like, let's axe those jokes. This will be really bad if we do this. So we ended up just kind of following the line and we wrote... So we did a bunch of videos where Satan was trying to stop the PragerU event. And so it was just me hosting and then videos of me doing stuff with my friend like man. I hate this guy

You know Dennis is such a great Stellwart person he's really hard to fight and you know like all it's tough like it was all so we did make I think We made amends that way yeah, and that night was really funny. It was a lot of fun It was like two nights before he got hurt. Yeah, and so is he I don't know I think he's still kind of still growing still kind of getting think yeah I mean, I don't know how much it's public so I don't want to divulge it But just to ask our viewers to please pray for you. Yeah, keep praying. Yeah, keep praying I think he's making progress. So like I don't know. I think it's very slow progress. He's an old man

He wasn't in great shape and wish him well, you know, and it was funny there's a couple of couple of things that happened that were really funny at that night though and One of them was my makeup artist was late. And the only thing I had with me were my contacts. So I put my contacts in and I'm waiting. We have like 30 minutes till I'm supposed to be on stage. I don't have anything on like my head. Oh, your contacts are red, is that the point?

They're like yellow. I see. And so I'm downstairs and I'm waiting for my makeup artist to show up. And he's just like, he's texting me, by the way, my makeup artist, he looks like, he looks like the lead singer of The Cure or something. And like, he's the only guy dressed like this

at this event. So anyway, he shows up, he's like, hey bro. But he didn't show up yet. And this car pulled up and this tall guy gets out and he turns around, it's John Voight. And I'm standing there with my contacts in. And he's like, who are you, son? And I was like, I'm the devil.

I was like, actually, I'm part of the show. Anyway, I'll see you later. I eventually made a joke. I made a joke the night of about the Jewish space laser coming after John Voight or something like that. Anyway, it was a lot of fun. But that was funny. And then he finally showed up. I got my stuff on, did the whole show. At the end, we're all doing the YMCA dance because Trump had just been elected. And so we're all up there, Dennis Prager, Adam Kroll,

you know, me, my friend Siaka, who was, you had on the show. What a lovely fellow. And Siaka and I hosted this together. And so anyway, Dennis Prager comes up and he's like, hey, you did a great job. And he was in his cups a little bit. He was what? He was in his cups, you know, like he had been drinking a lot of wine. And so he's like, hey, I wanna put this Yamaha on your head. And so he like goes to put a Yamaha on my head, like I'm the devil.

And I was like, Well, that won't look good. Sir, I don't think that's a good idea. Your team does not want this. I was like, this is gonna perpetuate a lot of stereotypes, like don't. He's like, oh, okay. And he like kinda went off.

Dude, it was, it's funny, we had a near miss. He doesn't wear a yarmulke. I think he does sometimes, maybe. Not all the time, yeah. Depends on what the material is. I don't really know exactly what he does, but anyway. Yeah, so that was really funny. But we had a good time and I think we kinda smoothed it over

and now he loves us. And then I walked around Beverly Hills dressed like the devil for the next few hours and that was really funny, but we had a good time and I think we kind of smoothed it over and now he loves us. And then I walked around Beverly Hills dressed like the devil for the next few hours. And that was a trip too. But what's that like? Oh, it's funny. Just funny. People were offering me offering to buy me drinks and stuff like it was so funny. They're like, I love you.

You know, what would have been cool is you had Christian tracks that you were handing out. I did say that to one of them. He's like, come in, have a drink with us. I'm like, oh no, no, we'll have plenty of time. I've got a special place for you. And they're like, oh, so funny. I'm like, have you ever done stand up? You know, no, I've never been a stand up guy. Would you ever? I would. Yeah, I would do it.

I've never been a stand up guy. Would you ever? I would, yeah, I would do it. My mate, James McCann is an Australian comedian who does a lot with this podcast called Kill Tony, which I guess is performed at the mothership, Joe Rogan's comedy club. Yeah, Kill Tony is the one where they're all in a panel. Yeah, it's really, it's really foul.

Very foul, really funny. So I wouldn't recognize it. Well, I think James is very funny and I'm sure the other actual comedians are funny, but my understanding is, because I watched like 10 minutes of it, so I'm an expert, is that they just have randos get up and do, at least in some segments,

people who are unheard of do like two minutes of comedy or one minute of comedy, and then they get critiqued by these actual comedians. Yeah. You're definitely gonna be funny than those guys. I mean. No, that's, going to be funnier than those guys. I mean. No, that's, I mean, I would do that stuff.

It terrifies me. I've done a couple of events that are like that. Yeah. But I have people writing for me. Like, honestly, as an actor, it's funny, because I was always just an actor, you know? Like, I'm a comedic actor. Like, I'm good at doing comedy in acting.

It turns out, I can do, I started off as drama. I was like just a drama guy. Like, you know, I really enjoyed doing serious acting. Like, that's, I can do, I started off as drama. I was like just a drama guy. Like, you know, I really enjoyed doing serious acting. Like that's what I wanted to do. But then comedy became this thing and it's something you have to sort of build. I think comedic acting is really hard actually. It's a lot harder than drama.

Like it's, well. I know for me, if I get up to give a talk and people are expecting a talk, then I get to also sometimes be really funny. Yeah. But no one's expecting it. So it's easier. But it must be difficult for the standup comic because that's the only reason you're there.

You're not there to teach them. You're not there to give them. I mean, you might do that, but that's not why they're there. Yeah. You're not there to give them information. You're there to make them laugh. That must be a ton of pressure. Well, yeah.

And you've got to imagine that some audiences are more apt to laugh than others. You know, people are drinking. They'll be more apt to laugh. It'll be hostile to what you feel. Funny. That's true, too. Brian Regan, I think, has got to be one of the greatest

comedians out there today. Yeah, he's very funny. I laughed so much, I was crying and my belly hurt. We went and watched him in Las Vegas with my wife once upon a time. Oh, that's great. Oh, he's good Yeah, he's great. Yeah, I like Jim Gaffigan most of the guys are I mean I really like Nate Barghatze because he's classy and he's clean and He's funny and he comes from the same perspective I do like from back and he grew up the same way I did in a lot of ways and and

So just listening to him is so funny to me because I really get where he's coming from. I think it's really funny. It's always funny to me how comedians that are hilarious in Australia, people can look this fella up. He can be a bit crude, so go be careful. His name's Carl Barron, or you'd say Carl Barron.

And he is extraordinarily funny and famous in Australia. And I often wonder how they don't translate into other countries. I don't know if that's for lack of trying or just knowing your audience. Cause I think a lot of the jokes are hilarious cause we kind of grew up in the same Australia together. Yeah, totally.

It's all about like sort of if you can connect with it. And like British humor versus American humor, American humor is so like straightforward and I don't know, it seems like it's got less nuance. British humor is more of a smirk than a smile. It's something like that. Yeah, and I think the B, it's weird because being in the Babylon B, it's more about we really wanna be subtle.

We're trying to be subtle. You are failing. You play Satan. I'm the guy that doesn't do something. Yeah, so like there's, and Kyle, Kyle's like, we need to make this subtle. Now, by, now, if this is what you mean, I think it's brilliant.

You wanna be so subtle that people aren't sure if that's real or not. That's right. With the quadriplegic, for example. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, people couldn't tell if that's real or not. That's right. With the quadriplegic, for example. Yeah, people couldn't tell which one was real when they were comparing those two videos. Like I saw it online, they're like, wait, is this one real or is this one real?

See, you know you've done your job. Yeah, is it the lesbian? Because we actually, we lit it the same way, like we set them the same way, like we had him like, you know, sitting in his chair. I think that's so funny. Oh my gosh. away. Like we had him like, you know, sitting in his chair. I think that's so funny. Oh my gosh. Like I can't, I honestly can't believe we did that. I think it's so funny. It was excellent.

Oh, it's so funny. But yeah, no, we're trying to trick grandmas on Facebook. Like that's what we want to do. Um, we have, uh, there's a news show. We used to do this. We used to do like newscasting. It was obviously satire. There was always sort of a wink at the camera. We've recently changed our tune to where it like really feels like a real newscast. If you're anything like me, you sometimes reach the end of summer feeling a little spiritually drained and in need of rest. That's why I'm excited to tell you about St. Michael's Lent with Exodus 90. Rooted in an ancient tradition practiced by St. Francis of Assisi, this 40-day journey

was born out of his deep devotion to St. Michael the Archangel. In fact, it was during this practice that St. Francis received the stigmata, a profound moment of grace and transformation. Join Exodus 90 in bringing back this ancient tradition, a chance to break away from distraction, reconnect with prayer and fortify your faith. This year they're diving into the letters of St. Paul to help us see beyond the material world and enter into the reality of the spiritual battle we're living in. So men, if you've been feeling the call to go deeper, to live with greater freedom, discipline and purpose, join Father Innocent

and Father Angelus of the Franciscan Friars of the Renewal as they lead us through St. Michael's Lent starting August 15th. Be a part of reviving this ancient tradition in the church and rally with brothers from around the world to follow the example of St. Francis and St. Michael. Go to Exodus90.com slash Matt to find out more information. Join us on August 15th for St. Michael's Lent and get ready to fight the good fight. That's Exodus90.com slash Matt.

And so we're trying to kind of make it feel like what was one of the ones recently, like what is it? The deportations are going to cause, what was it? Deportations are causing a downturn in the amount of work for human traffickers. And so it was like, you know, meanwhile, you know, and it's like a really serious subject and that cuts away to a human trafficker. He's like, yeah, I've been here for like 13 years and it's really hard for us, you know, like Donald Trump is like, you know, Biden always made it easy for us.

And so it was like really, it was funny cause you couldn't tell if it was, we did another one where it was like, Congress now has a barcode on their heads so that it's easier to scan them at checkout. Like it's just, but it's like serious, you know, so you have all these people standing in line waiting to check out their politicians and's just, but it's like serious, you know, as you have all these people standing in line waiting to check out their politicians

and like trying to scan their heads. And it feels more like a real newscast where you're like on location, like, yeah, we're just, behind me here is where, you know, like we're being just real serious about the whole thing. You know, the Onion actually did a great job with this. Like they were, one of the things I'll give them is that, even though they sort of stopped being funny

because they were, they wouldn't make fun of the things I'll give them is that even though they sort of stopped being funny because they were they wouldn't make fun of certain things but they were really good at making things seem like they were real so if you go on their news their news shorts remember those back in the day so what was that the early 90s mid 90s I think is later than that okay I think yeah those are the greatest things that have ever been recorded. The ones, remember the one where the kid is in there and he's being made fun of? Yes, was he fat? What was the thing?

Yeah, he's like, yeah, so they were making fun of me and calling me names. He's like, like Fatso. Yeah, yeah. And like, like two tons or whatever, coming up with the names. They were, someone started showing through, I couldn't believe it, it was comedy, gold. It was so good.

And I just don't understand why they stopped. But you probably have a theory. Well, I think it was the overhead of making videos. I think in our business where you're making, I guess, new satire, articles are the solid goal. Because there's no overhead. You can write as many as you want. You can write 40 of them a week.

You can make a ton of money. You get into production, and obviously you know from this, there's a lot of overhead. You've got to pay people. Even with, like we have seven people on our staff, there's a lot of overhead. You gotta pay people, you know, even with, you know, like we have seven people on our staff. That's a small staff. We have, we have a building.

We have to do this. You have to pay actors when they come in and, you know, so, you know, we start actually spending a lot of money on that. And I think if you're a businessman, you're looking at it, like, well, this is sort of a loss leader, like maybe, you know, my thing is, I think it's the cultural impact. There's all kinds of things that are not quantifiable

that you can look at in terms of the business. And I think it's really valuable. It also puts you on the map in a way that articles don't. You might not see that from behind the scenes, but I mean, I think for people like me, you tend to remember all that amazing, gorgeous book you sold or that fantastic, that sketch comedy that I saw that you then shared to other people.

It's just sort of ingrains Babylon B in your subconscious, perhaps more than if you were just looking at articles. So it feels like it's more of a thing. It's an actual entity. It's not just, yeah. But because I mean, is Babylon B, is it bigger than the onion now? So yes.

That's wild. I think it's officially bigger than the onion. That is wild. Yeah, it's crazy. You would never have thought that at the beginning. The onion was the biggest thing. And then Babylon B was this cute little thing that just made fun of Christian things.

Yeah. We just made church jokes for a long time. But the Babylon, and this was, I mean, I don't know if the numbers, you have to check this, but the numbers like a year ago where the Onion was on a downturn, they were firing a bunch of people and they had stopped producing their videos.

But in the last like six months or whatever, they started producing videos again and they're doing these news things. And I don't know that they've reached the caliber that they were at the beginning, because those were just those morning shows, like were just brilliant. But they had to do a set, they had like all these actors,

like it was brilliant. That was so good. Brilliant. Oh my gosh. And some of the new stuff has been good too, but the jokes just aren't as funny because they're still leftist. And so leftism does not, it's not funny.

And so every once in a while, they'll have something that's evergreen, that is not, it's not funny. And so every once in a while, they'll have something that's evergreen, that is not political, that's funny. You know what's not funny is ideologies. I think that's what it is. Cause it's not like there isn't a rightism or rightism. No, right. Especially now that we're in power

and things are being calcified, I think there are going to be these sacred ideological cows that you cannot criticize. And we're gonna start to see that. And then it'll be your job to stand up to the plate and upset everybody. Well, we're in the place now where we're making fun of the woke right.

Oh, tell me what that is. Do you know what the woke right is? So it's the same as the woke left, but on the right. So it's identity matters. Racism is real, but it's good. OK. Yeah, so identity matters. It's the actual it's good. OK. Yeah. So identity matters. It's the actual white nationalists.

OK. And there's different schools of thought. If you listen to guys like Tim Poole, he doesn't think it's a thing. But then you go in James Lindsay and Seth Dillon, our CEO. They're talking about the woke right. And it's like we're seeing these people, even, I hate to say this, but even Tucker has given

platform to some people that are sort of these like, no, Nazi was... I mean, Nazism wasn't that big a deal and Hitler wasn't that bad of a guy. And what is it? Winston Churchill, Winston Churchill really was the one that was the problem in World War II. This kind of stuff is coming out and it's becoming a thing where it's almost like there's this surge of anti-Semitism, actual racism on the right. Oh, I mean, a hundred percent. I see this.

Now, I tend to see this in comment sections from people who are too cowardly to show their face. Yeah, jerks. Yeah. No, I think it's okay if you want to be anonymous on Twitter. That's fine. But when you start saying abominable, hateful things, and you're anonymous, then I think you're a coward. Here's an example.

Someone recently posted an image of Candice Owens, her husband, and children and said, look at these little monsters. And he referenced the fact that they were a mixed breed between black and white. I mean, that's despicable. It's terrible. That guy sucks. And that would be an example

of what you're referring to, right? That you're starting to see things like this. And this wasn't a tweet with no retweets, that kind of stuff. No, it's one of those, you're seeing that, you're seeing like, we get so many comments, like you're a bunch of Jews, like. Why?

I wear a yarmulke once. Is that an, did it one time? I was dressed like the devil. No, but it's funny cause they accuse us of being, well, we get accused of everything. So people think that we're Nazis, people think that we're Jews, people think that we're Jew lovers. Nobody's really commented about us being anti-Semitic, but I don't really know.

So they think the CEO, Seth, is a Jew. They think that... Is he? I guess he has Jewish heritage somewhere, but he's a Christian. I don't know. Yeah, it's so funny. I then want to know... And so people think we're Mossad agents.

That's amazing. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that we're like shills for Israel. We get all that stuff. Did you make... Again, forgive me. I don't follow a lot of this, but did you make a joke that made fun of quote unquote anti-Semites

that gave people that impression, or what have you done that? Oh yeah, we mock them all the time. Oh, okay. Well, and you mentioned, well, I probably shouldn't get into this. Well, there- Yeah, let's not, let's not.

It's okay. I don't wanna- There've been people we've had- Address people individually, but you know what I mean? Yeah, we kinda tend to stay away from that. You know, you brought that up at one point, where you said we kind of go after ideologies. And that's true.

But every once in a while, we will make fun of a person that represents an ideology. So AOC, we mock her all the time, mostly because we don't think she's very smart. But that's the other thing. That's the reason why we mock her. But then the other people that we mock are people like Rachel Levine.

He represents the trans ideology. And he was the trans director of Health and Human Services. Where do you find that line? Because being a Christian, to mock, what does to mock mean? Well, it's not really a person. It's to really scorn, isn't it? To speak poorly, to commit slander against? I mean this and that's what you're saying true in which case it could be detraction

Many of well, I think when people are saying things publicly to respond publicly is seems legitimate Yeah, I think AOC is the yeah, it's a public AOC is the one example I can give where we go after a human that she really represents, she's probably a puppet for a lot of different people. So she probably is just standing out there. She has no idea what she's saying at any given point. She's just kind of like saying a bunch of stuff. And so we mock her for what is apparently that,

like that she's sort of a puppet. And so that's probably the one example where we go after a person. But I think the rest of the time, we're going after ideologies or people that represent those ideologies. And so a person in power, like Rachel Levine, somebody who has one of the highest positions

in the whole country, is saying that we're punching down. And we're like, who's in power? Did you hear that joke from Ricky Gervais about punching down? I've heard him talk about it, but tell me. I'm going to do it very poorly. Sometimes you have to punch down. If I'm fighting a midget, if I punch up here,

I'm going to miss the bugger. And then he does this beautiful thing where he tells people why that joke is funny. He's like, now that's funny because you know it's a joke. Now, if I actually dragged him out on stage and started punching him, you wouldn't laugh. And he's like, which is why I dropped that bit. So it's like, oh, he's so very talented. Oh, he's so good. Yeah. Ricky, Ricky Druvius is so good. I'd say nobody wants you. Nobody cares. Like just thank you, God, get off the stage. You know, it's so good, bro. Oh my gosh. He's so good.

Um, but yeah, we were talking about kind of the antisemitism and all that stuff and we don't and we have made jokes about certain people, even like, like a Candace Owens, like we go after her a bit and, um, and she didn't take it well, um well a couple of months ago. And so she kept coming after us and stuff. But a lot of that sort of like that Jewish hate or that criticism of Israel in this war, so like has been translated as antisemitism.

So there's legitimate criticisms that we could say, okay, yeah, maybe Israel shouldn't do this. And then people that are just like defending Israel No matter what or saying no, that's anti-semitism, you know but then there's people that are just overly criticizing everything and calling it all Jewish and Like it's really this feels like the new BLM thing doesn't it because you know when people would say I remember the first time I ever heard about Black Lives Matter. Mm-hmm. I think everybody who ever first heard about that, every single person who ever first heard that went, yeah.

Of course. Obviously. But then it was the switch to, oh, defund the police. OK, I don't know if that's a good idea. Or black people are systematically oppressed in the country. I have questions that I don't think, I don't know if that's true.

Give me evidence. You're a racist. And so it seems to me that there's something similar happening in this anti-Semitism thing or Christ is King thing. It's like, no question. Every Christian is like, of course Christ is King. Of course. And of course every Jew should convert to Christianity. Of course. I'm with you there. Now, now keep talking. And then sometimes again, what I'm talking about is not public figures, but what I often see is people in the comment section who will then say things like it's the effing Jews every single time like that. And I'm like, okay, see now this is why I right. This is this is why this gets confusing because you're saying a statement, which I

completely agree with. But then you say other things. And I'm I don't like how the two are linked. That's right. The BLM thing is linked. Well, in a- Bailey doctrine or fallacy. Have you heard of this? No, tell me more. It's when you make a statement that everybody agrees with,

or rather, you say something that's disagreeable, people attack it, and then you retreat to a more obvious position. So if I say, defund the police and you attack me and I just say, black lives matter, you're like, that's not what... But then you come back again and you make that uncomfortable position. I think sometimes you see that online too where people will say Christ is king and every Christian is like, of course, but I suspect you mean something as well in addition to that. And then it'll be like, well, the Jews are the cause of all the world's degeneracy.

Like, oh, I... No, I don't see that. Explain that to me. Christ is King. Oh, no, no, I'm with you there. That kind of back and forth. Right. So I think...

But then I also think people who are making this... I think people have this... Just like people had this legitimate concern when you were being called a racist. You're like, I'm not that, and I wish you would stop doing that. I think there are legitimate good people who are like, you're saying anti-Semite, that's not what I am.

And I just, I'm criticizing Israel or I want Jews to convert. But where I see it is in the anonymous comments on YouTube. It's just like that other example I gave you with George, who's a dear friend, and Candice making fun of their beautiful children. They're doing it anonymously. I see that.

And it's the kind of thing where I thought, OK, I can tell you're a Catholic, and you're saying it's the effing Jews every single time. That's a comment. That's an actual comment that I in under one of my videos. And I thought, gee, isn't that funny though, because if Biden were Jewish or Pelosi were Jewish, instead of Catholic, you'd add that to your arsenal as well.

Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. No, I think you're absolutely right. I think it's a real confusion. Yeah, the Nick Fuentes kind of weaponization of Christ is King as a statement to try to put the Jews down somehow has ruined that phrase in public speech. If you were to talk about it in your private life, the two of us together, Christ

is King, we'd say, yes, amen, that's so true. But if we're sitting with a couple of Jews, like we were a couple of months ago, and these kids came up and said, Christ is King, with our Jewish friends sitting there, with the yarmulkes on, sitting there, knowing that this is the weaponization of something. I knew that that kid was a... We had this experience when we were... Matt and I were sitting together. Oh, I'm remembering what you're saying. Yeah, we were sitting together, I'm remembering what you're saying. We were sitting together, having a cigar with our two Jewish friends.

Yes. And it was a Catholic, a Protestant, a couple of Jews, for the bunch of like dude bros. Yeah. Yeah. Like that were there like, and I, you know, it was a really interesting experience because these kids came up and said, Christ is King. And I was like, I was like, you know?

Yeah. Amen. I was like, yes. But then you're like, but wait. It's the baggage that's connected to it. I need to know what we mean. My thought was they were saying it to the Jews. And I was like, that's what it seemed like to me. And so for that kind of thing, I'm like, stop using... I think it's using the name of the Lord in vain when people are using it as a weapon using, I think it's using the name of the Lord in vain. When people are using it as a weapon, and I think it's evil. It's interesting, I wanna think more about that.

Can I give you an example? I think it's like, I used to live in Ireland, and there were two leagues that people in my part of Ireland would follow. There was the Celtics and the Rangers, I wanna say. And the Celtics were the Catholic team, quote unquote, and the Rangers were the Protestant team, quote unquote. And so when the Celtics or Celtics would score,

the Catholic fans would make the sign of the cross. Yeah. And okay, so that, it seems to me that any symbol, including words, can be used, you might say, in vain. Or, like that was, that's more of a middle finger than it is a declaration of faith. Yes. Right? Yeah, I love that.

Um, Christ is King is a declaration. It's a, yeah, I'm okay if it, I'm okay if it rebukes the Jew a little. Like Christ is king and you need to submit to him. I'm okay with that. Sure. But when it starts to become this predominant antagonistic middle finger, Yeah.

I wonder then it seems to me to be taken in vain, I would say. Yeah, I agree. But did that offend you? Not at all. Do you think that makes sense? No, 100, I think it's absolutely true. But that's... Did that offend you? Not at all. Do you think that makes sense? No, 100. I think it's absolutely true.

I think, and it's hard to read... The reason why that's a confusing thing, it's hard to read what people's intentions are. And so, when somebody comes up and says, Christ is King to you, if you're sitting with a very Jewish guy with their yarmulke on and in his heart is like, hey, listen, brother, Christ is King.

You should know Jesus. Yes. Like, then I would say, yes, like, of course. Yeah. Like, let's talk about the Lord. We'll go back. Let's talk about the sacrificial system. I want to know what you think about the completion of...

And then we'll talk about all that. But if you're just coming up and saying, Christ is king, bro. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we're sitting there. We're going to clip that. Keep going. Yeah, yeah. Was this?

Oh my gosh. Yeah. I did this, by the way. I don't think that counts. Part of evangelizing is trying to understand how someone will hear something. Yeah, I agree. So you're a Protestant.

I'm a Catholic. If I love you and I want you to be Catholic, which I do, I would wanna talk about the blessed Virgin Mary in a way, let's say, that you would not find immediately distasteful. Which by the way, you should. I mean, like try to evangelize me. I'm interested.

I'd be happy to, but if I was to come to you and say, "'Mary's queen,'' and I said it with that tone of voice, and it had taken on this negative connotation where Catholics were essentially giving the middle finger to Protestants. And even the Protestants, whether they should or shouldn't, began to feel threatened by Catholics. And I know that that's how you feel. And I come and say that to you to get cred from my bros around me. That's when it's clearly, excuse me, I just spat all over the table. Clearly I think has become wrong probably. I agree.

Well, yeah, and I think that's the wider conversation of how do we use our sacred language and do we use it as a means of drawing people in and talking about truth and maybe rebuking out of love. Or are we using it as a middle finger? I also think about, and I also think anti-Semitism can be obviously too broadly used. Like sometimes people will say of a Protestant,

oh, he's anti-Catholic, right? And I go, and I always am the one to say, okay, wait, what does that mean? Because if you're a Protestant who rejects the Catholic church because of what you think are its false teachings, why does that make you anti-Catholic? I would just think it makes you a good Protestant.

Like I would, it would make sense. Like if you- The basis of Protestantism is that. Yeah. So there has to be- We're protesting. That's the- But does that make every Protestant anti-Catholic?

I don't think so. I don't know. It doesn't mean you hate Catholic people. Yeah. If that's what you mean. Or you're antagonistic towards them or that you think they're like a, they're somehow a serious threat against your culture.

Like you might think those things. I just think there has to be a distinction made between someone who disagrees with Catholics and someone who's anti-Catholic. And so I think the same thing should apply to someone who disagrees with Jews and someone who is hostile toward them. And I think whatever your standard is for Catholics,

if you're a Catholic, then you should apply that equally to the Jews. Yes, I agree with that. And I think the anti-Semitism conversation, I guess where it starts to get to me, it's not when people have genuine concerns about what's going on in the world or their theological positions.

Obviously, I disagree with their theological positions. I believe in Jesus. He is the Messiah. He completes this whole system. Let's talk about it. Or I don't think that Netanyahu is infallible. I think he's a fallible guy. I think he's made mistakes and I think the Masada has made mistakes and I think... But I also, I look at Israel and I'm like, on the whole, it's the only point of sanity in the entire Middle East. So I'm like, let's keep it there. We don't wanna get rid of it. It'd be terrible if, I think, if radical Islam took over that whole area. It'd be awful. And so let's support Israel. So there's that. And I think where I have a problem is I have friends that... Every problem is traced back to the that. And I think where I have a problem is I have friends

that every problem is traced back to the Jews. And their first instinct is to say, well, it's the Jews. Like the Jews are using it. Like even with the USA or something like that. It's like, well, the Mossad, the Mossad was using it. Or the Mossad was using these sex rings or whatever. Like the Mossad was using this. It's like, well, everybody was.

Everybody was doing this. The CIA did it too. All right. So why is it always the Mossad first with you? Like, why is it always the Jews first? I don't get it. So that's where I start to get sensitive. I'm like, and I've corrected some of my friends about it and maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm wrong about this. So I'm, I'm very much open to the idea. But what I love about your posture there is this sort of epistemic humility. And that's what you don't see in ideologues. Like think of the BLM ideologue.

You've never heard one go, but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm just seeing this from my keyhole. Help me understand. You don't hear that from them. And I think it's the same thing. Like I'm open to hearing the person who's got a lot of criticisms against the Jews in Israel, but when you get the sense that they're dogmatic about it,

they've explored every corner and they now have the full picture. Again, maybe they do, but I don't think you do. I don't think any of us do. Maybe some of us are more right than others. And of course we can make claims without having knowledge of every nook and cranny, but that humility that you just presented,

like, I might be wrong, but help me. Yes. And that should be our stance, but I don't always feel that way. And in those moments, in those conversations, I don't feel that way sometimes. Or I'm just like, dude, stop talking about the Jews. I'm tired of you criticizing the Jews about everything. I, you know, I on the whole support them and I love them and I have friends that are and I have,

and Israel's amazing and I love it over there, you know, and so, and I've been there. Have you been there? Like, I haven't, I'd like to. You should go. I was talking to Shapiro, I think when I was on his show, I'm like, why do you want to be a Jew? Me to be a Jew, it bugs me. My joke is, so when I get up on Kill Tony, this is my joke, and it's not funny, which is why I'll never do it, and I'll never do it anyway, is just this, it makes me want you more. You're like the girlfriend that doesn't need me.

Yeah, you're playing hard to get. Yeah, yeah. Whereas Catholics are like, please, you need to come in here. Protestants even worse. Yeah, we're like, please wait, wait for me, wait. Running away like, stop, stop. I'll be better. I'll change.

I'll try. I'll change. Yeah, that's what the... Hey, that's a good point. That's a deep cut there. Yeah, those progressive Christians are like, we'll change, we'll change. Yeah, it's not you, it's me. I'll be better.

It's not you, progressive Christians. No, it is you, progressive Christians. That'd be a good skit. Oh, it would be. That's good, man. That's half the reason why we have the whole progressive church. So I'm noticing this desire on part of a lot of conservatives to re-anchor ourselves to some kind of tradition. Like you and I, I think are similar in age. Forgive me if I'm wrong. I'm 41 I think.

Yeah, yeah, we're like similar. So, you know, like we kind of grew up like F authority and we don't want, we, you know, we were just floating and free. Whereas if it's like today, no, no, we need to know who we are again because no one can live without a culture. So what I'm seeing in the Catholic Church and what I'm, is this desire to link to our

culture and our history and our roots. But I'm also, maybe I'm just got a limited view here, but I'm seeing that among Protestants as well. I'm seeing a lot of Protestants converting to orthodoxy or Catholicism, but I'm also seeing within Protestantism, this new desire to link to whatever their tradition is, to have maybe more of a traditional worship service. But I'm not in your world. So do you see that and what's going on? Yeah, switching gears, we, yeah, so being a Protestant, that's basically non-denominational. But I'm also, I have this crazy theological pedigree. Like I started off as a Nazarene, which is, you know, very,

it's like, it's Methodist. It's like really, gosh, it's, it's almost works-based in the sense that there's almost no grace, you know, like, you have to like, you have to accomplish all these things. And so, you know, Nazarene, and then I became a reformed person. So I became like a Calvinist and, and then I switched. And then I was a, then I was a Pentecostal. Why do you say that with harsh terms? Because I was a Calvinist and then I was a Pentecostal.

No cause like the charismatic movement, people kind of tend to look at you like you're an insane person. So like that's like, so I got insane person. So I was charismatic and now I'm sort of like, I was in an American Baptist Church forever, which started off as an abolitionist movement and then became the American Baptist in the North. And they are basically Baptists, they're a reformed Baptist almost. And then, yeah, so all that to say, like, I've been all over in the Protestant church, except for Lutheranism, which is like original Protestantism. But- OG. OG, bro. And I know some really great Lutherans, and they're basically like Catholics. Yeah,

anyway- I take issue with that continually. I know, I know you do. Yeah, yeah. So anyway, all that to say, like, I know I've been all over, and yeah, I think you're right. I think there's this sense that we realize that the culture that we want to, that Christianity brings to a particular society is something that we need to maintain and we need to hold onto. It's not something where everything's free, we can do everything we want.

We have to follow this, we have to know what our history is and where we came from. So I've done a lot of... I've done some research into that too. What is it like to... What were the Nazarenes? I'm not really... I'm a recovering Nazarene, I would say. So I don't really adhere to all that stuff anymore, but I do think that I'm just a... So for us, I think as Protestants, we go all the way back to the New Testament, the apostles. That's really the only authoritative work. And I think as Protestants, that's how we view it. You said the New Testament. Presumably, what you mean is, I think, the Bible.

The Protestant New Testament. Yeah, the Bible. The whole Bible. No, I'm not a Marcion. Yeah. So I would say the whole Bible. That's your authority. What this says is what I'm bound to follow.

Yes, I'm under this authority. It was a specially authoritative time with the apostles on the earth, with Christ. Yeah. And the apostles. Yeah. So that's, that's how I think most Protestants view, you know, and that's one of the reasons why we take issue with things that have come, that came after, even if it's the church fathers, if they contradict or take away from those original texts, those original things written by those authors that were there with Jesus, then they hold less

sway and they're not as... They're not authoritative. And so if it contradicts, like so for instance, like if you're talking about the Virgin Mary, like those things come up later and they're maybe hinted at by the early church fathers and they don't really solidify for a couple hundred years and then, you know, then you have these things and they seem to, in my mind, if I'm looking at it, take away from Jesus, you know? Like I'm like, Jesus is sufficient, the I'm looking at it, take away from Jesus. I'm like, Jesus is sufficient, the sacrifice of Christ

is sufficient, His grace is sufficient. What He did, He's able, He's omniscient, omnipotent. There's no reason to add anything else. So why would we, my question always to Catholics is why? Well, let's do this then, because I wasn't expecting we were gonna get into this, but now we are, so let's talk about it. It's fascinating to me.

I don't know how often you talk about this on your podcast, but I- Well, okay, so let me tell you my progression. I mean, I became a Catholic when I was 17 years old and then sort of became intellectually bored into Catholicism later than that. And then I think for a while, I would come at Protestants with my elbows up.

Do you know what I mean by that? Like ready to go. And then I just for a while I would come at Protestants with my elbows up, you know what I mean by that? Like ready to go. And then I just got to a point where I'm like, I see a lot of good in my Protestant friends. I think they're wrong about many things as they think I'm wrong about me, I'm wrong about things. And I'm willing to have these discussions and willing to be okay walking away disagreeing.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, I agree with that. I want to tell you about some amazing coffee. We were sent recently. It was from Seven Weeks Coffee, which is America's pro-life coffee company. They are on a mission to fund the pro-life movement, one cup of coffee at a time. The reason they're called Seven Weeks Coffee is because it's at seven weeks that a baby is the size of a coffee bean, and it's the same time a heartbeat is clearly detected on

an ultrasound. They donate 10% of every sale to support pregnancy care centers across the country, and they've raised over $900,000 for these centers and have saved thousands of lives. Now let me tell you about the coffee because it's one thing to have a great mission, but is the coffee any good? And I can assure you that it is excellent. I had a cup this morning. My wife and I both love it.

It's mold-free, pesticide-free, shade-grown, low acid. It's organically farmed. It truly checks all the boxes. So go to 7weekscoffee.com and save 15% forever when you subscribe. Plus, exclusively for my listeners, use the promo code Matt for an extra 10% off your first order.

That's a 25% total savings on your first order plus your free gift. Remember your order will directly help support a network of over a thousand pro-life organizations across the US, sevenweekscoffee.com. So if the reason I can't go along with Protestantism is, well, for many things, but the idea that I am only bound to follow what is either explicitly

or implicitly stated in scripture, I think is an unbiblical doctrine. I don't think it's found within the pages of scripture. That would be one reason I would reject it. Okay. How is that? I also think, and I'll stop after this, that often Protestants view the Bible, and being a little facetious here, but as a instruction manual for a church still in shrink wrap.

But I think rather the Bible presupposes a church already in existence. So it was the church that wrote the New Testament, that canonized the New Testament, and so on. There are many things that Protestants accept that aren't taught explicitly in Scripture, one of them being an index of 27 books, for example, and much else besides. And so that would be the beginning of what I'd say. And then I'm happy to talk about the... No, that's, I mean, all that stuff's very interesting. I think in terms of the canonization of scripture, the criterion that they used to determine what those were, were things like, you know, the apostolic, you know,

the anointing, you know, like if it was an apostle, if it was someone that knew Jesus. And that kind of thing, sort of like, you know, if somebody comes along later that didn't know those people. But there were multiple letters around that time that weren't included in the canon. We don't know who wrote Hebrews would be another example. And so I would say that we are both relying on the church and the church's authority, which was given to it by Christ, who never told the church or the apostles to write anything down, but gave us a church with the authority to teach. And I would say the only church which can trace its lineage unbroken to the time of Christ and

the apostles is the Catholic Church. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. And so I think... I've heard Catholics say that, and I think that's a... But I think that's a historical fact. I mean, Protestants can trace themselves back to Zwingli or Martin Luther or John Smith, who started the Baptists, for example, in the 17th century. But not Joe Smith.

Not Joe Smith. No, no, that would be much, much worse. Much later. Much more egregious. Yeah. No, no, that would be much, much worse. Much more egregious. No, it's interesting you say that. So my understanding of the canon is that they just assembled the books that were already in circulation.

It was the canon itself that was already sort of like authoritative. They took those books and said, these are the books that we're using as authoritative. And they created the 27 books in the New Testament. Do you think that there were more than 27 books in circulation? Oh, I do. Right. So then, okay, so they were in circulation. There were letters that had claimed to be written by certain apostles. Do you grant that? I would grant that some of those... I don't think that the ones that made it in were written by

the apostles. But my point is that you're accepting the authority of the church to tell you that. No, that's true. Yeah. So it's interesting that you'll accept the authority of the church, because this was officially declared at the Council of Rome 382 by Pope Damasus I, right? And so we'll accept the church when it tells us then, because of its authority, but we don't continue to accept its authority in other instances. Well, I would say, yes, that's the earliest, these are the earliest writings.

And the ones that were already, yes, there were books that were in circulation, but they weren't, they rejected them either because they were like regional or because they weren't, you know, like they said something that was in contradiction to the theology of the other ones. And so that's the reason why they didn't include them. And so yes, we do accept that but it's the earliest thing So then when the church puts its stamp on it says these are authoritative and then something comes along later That contradicts or dilutes it then it's like well, you're contradicting diluting the things that were written But if these but if two books are contradicting each other you're trusting the church to decide which is the one in error. I'm trusting the scripture.

I'm trusting the books, not the church necessarily. No, fair enough. But what I'm saying is, because what you just said is one of the criteria in the church probably used is, okay, we have all of these gospels and letters, and if one of them is contradicting these 27 books, then we throw it out. But my point is, you don't know as a Protestant, I would say, which book to throw out. If there's two books that are contradicting each other,

then why not throw out Matthew, or why not throw out Hebrews and James? Which Luther wanted to do. Like Luther wanted to get rid of, but he was willing to get rid of James. Yeah, I know. Yeah, that's a very interesting, yeah. So I think Luther was wrong about quite a few things. Not about everything, but I think Luther was wrong about quite a few things,

not about everything, but I think he was wrong about quite a few things. Obviously the Jews. I haven't looked into a lot of what he said. I think some of it is quite apocryphal, probably. Yeah. While it was... His Gandhistic stuff from the Catholics that may not have fully represented his view as well, but... That's possible. I don't, I haven't heard that. Certainly his hymns are gorgeous. His hymns are great.

And the Lady Fortress is our God. His criticisms, the 95 theses are all, I think, good criticisms. And I... And I have to read through them again. Yeah. Yeah. They're interesting. And I've been to Wittenberg, Vittenberg.

Yeah, yeah. And anyway, but I agree with you in the sense that, okay, I'm trying to get back to where we were. Sorry. But the original 27 books were already authoritative by the time the church recognized them as one thing. And so then the church coming along later and saying, no, actually, these things are wrong. I think we're going back to the oldest thing by saying, these are the books written by the apostles, the oldest thing that we have.

And so if anything comes along later, and I keep saying this, but like anything comes along later that contradicts or dilutes, it's like, well, I don't know why we're going to listen to these later, even though it is the church, like, why are we listening to this? It seems to dilute what the Gospels are teaching. But you're saying... I guess my main premise would be that the onus of proof, the burden of proof is on the Protestant when he makes the positive claim that the Christian is only bound to accept what the

Scriptures teach explicitly or implicitly, because the Bible doesn't say that. So what I'm saying to the Protestant is you're trying to make me subject myself to a doctrine of men Because it's not actually found in Scripture So if I'm only able to accept that which the church teachers, oh sorry the Bible teachers explicitly or implicitly Great, then I don't have to submit to solid scriptura because it's not taught there Yeah, so all scriptures God breathed useful and maybe I'm misquoting this, useful for preaching and teaching and training in righteousness. Right. And may be fully equipped. Might be fully equipped.

For every good work. Every good work, that's right. Yeah, but scripture in that, I mean, the way that we talk about it in Protestant circles is that it's, you know, that was, you know, he was quoting Peter and he was when Paul was quoting, and Peter was quoting Paul and kind of including their writings in the scripture. So Paul quoting Peter at certain times, Peter quoting Paul at certain times, and saying that these are scriptures as well. So like St. claiming that the New Testament is also scripture.

And so, yeah. Yeah, 100%. I mean, so we could disagree on this, but it sounds like our first objection is, I don't think we would know what the New Testament was without the church. But the second thing is, I mean, even Peter will say things like,

many things that Paul writes are hard to interpret and the wicked twist them to their destruction, right? You're familiar with this, right? And so, I think what's unfortunate within Protestantisms is that you have people who would believe that they're a man of God, and they're not doing that to the scriptures, but what they believe contradicts each other.

Yeah. So do we baptize? How do we baptize? When do we baptize? What even is baptism? What's interesting about that as an example is baptism was universally understood. Well, here's John 3.5, right? Unless you were born of water and the Spirit, every single church father without exception as they interpret that verse thinks it to mean baptism.

The first person I can find who says that baptism is merely symbolic, and I know not all Protestants think that, some think it is salvific, is Zwingli in his work De Baptismo. He says, when it comes to baptism, I can only conclude that all of the fathers and doctors have been in error. So it seems to me that you have to say that as a Protestant. But what I would say to you is,

if you got into a time machine and we went back to the first century, I think I would feel way more is if you got into a time machine and we went back to the first century, I think I would feel way more comfortable in that church than you would. Yeah, in terms of baptism. Well, not just baptism, but everything. Salvation. Yeah, like everything, like the Eucharist, worshiping the Eucharist, prayers to the saints.

Prayers to the saints. A submission to the church. You're saying that as, okay, so as a first century, you would go back to the first century. Sure, or second century. Peter, Paul, those guys are all century, you would go back to the first century, or second century, all those guys are all there, Ignatius is maybe there, and you would say you would feel more comfortable there than we would be. Yes, 100%. Well, I do wonder, and here's a way to prove me wrong. Yeah, yeah. All you and I have to do is read all of the church fathers, and again, they're not infallible, I understand that, they're not scripture. But if you and I read the people from the first one, two, 300 years and see, okay, they're

worshiping the Eucharist. They're talking about it like it's actually Jesus' body and blood if they're praying to saints. If there's actually authority that people have to submit to within the church, it's not merely the sort of invisible body of believers. Now that isn't to say that doctrine doesn't develop. I think it would be fair to say that the church, it's not merely the sort of invisible body of believers. Now that isn't to say that doctrine doesn't develop. I think it would be fair to say that the church today has a more robust view of the Trinity than Peter, than the first pope, or I would call him the first pope, you know, like apostle Peter, because we come to, the church comes to a greater understanding of these things. But to come to a greater understanding of something is not to create something out of whole cloth. But as the Protestant, you would think we are doing that.

I think in some instances, it seems like the Catholics did create things out of whole cloth over years. I mean, I don't want to insult, but I would say... And I'm not Catholic answer man, so I'm not going to pretend to know what I don't know. Well, I'm not Protestant. No, but I would say like the, I would say purgatory, I think indulgences, I look at the doctrine of Mary, the worship of saints or the praying to saints. Those things are things that are not in the scriptures at all. And then when they show up, they show up many hundreds of years later and are just kind of told... The people are told to do it, and a literate population is just told,

like, there's only this high... This people in the ivory towers are able to enter the Scriptures, and then they're able to tell people, this is what the Bible says, or this is what we do as a church. But they've created these doctrines out of nowhere. Can I just pick one of them, and you don't have to agree with me, but can I try to make a case for purgatory based on biblical planks that I think are undeniable? That I think are undeniable. Yeah, I love that. If you're a biblical Christian, you have to accept purgatory. Okay. And then you tell me your disagreement. All right. Okay.

Sin in this life, you and me, even at the moment of our death, sin or attachment to sin exists. Yes. Unless, I mean, the Lord Jesus can purify us from our attachments to sin. I'm not saying that's not possible. So I'm just saying for many of us... I think that first statement, it may be, I may disagree with that that at the point of death is what you're saying, right? Well in this life I mean are you attached? Do you still have the effects of sin and of course?

I know you're talking about as a living human. Yeah, of course as a Christian, but somebody who's indwelled by the Holy Spirit I still struggle with yeah, yeah And not just not to struggle but I feel the effects of it like I just live so yes I made so many selfish choices that impact how I can love freely. Amen. Me too. Yeah, I agree with that. But no sin in heaven.

The unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom, but also those in heaven we know are not sinning, nor are they attached to sin. So you agree with those two planks, right? Yes, I agree with that. So sin in this life, no sin in heaven. And by sin, I mean attachment to, engagement with. Okay, so how then, how are we gonna solve this conundrum?

Because we have sin in this life and attachment to sin in this life. You die right now. You're saved, please God. Okay, now I'm not sinning nor am I attached to sin. Therefore, the idea in Catholicism, and I think this is biblical, is that some purification has to exist

so that I'm made fit for heaven. So one kind of mundane analogy I've heard is, if you're out working the fields all day long and you're covered with grime and you come in to sit down for a beautiful meal, you have to be hosed off first, because how beautiful would it be to sit down in that kind of muck? So the idea is, for Catholics, is that purgatory is the final rush of our sanctification.

So we come into relationship with Christ through baptism and are saved. And then through, perhaps we sin and we feel the effects of sin, but we're growing in sanctification. Even our salvation is an ongoing process, but we grow in sanctification. And then if we're not fully sanctified, the purgatory is the final rush of our sanctification. CS Lewis accepted this. Right, I know, yeah, which I was gonna say. What do you think of that? I won't hold you to it, and you can disagree with me later. Yeah, no, that's okay. These are all things that I don't talk about very often, so forgive me if I'm stumbling.

But I would say the way that I understand the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice on the cross and the receiving of that sacrifice is that the sin is removed as far as the East is from the sin is removed as far as the east is from the west. Amen. And so when I am no longer attached to those sins, it's a legal thing, right? Okay. And so when I say I am saved by grace through faith, that I'm justified by the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, that's a legal document that says my righteousness is then Christ's righteousness. He gives it to me. It's not something I deserve It's not something I can earn. It's not something that I'll ever be

Until until that completion that kind of unification like first Corinthians 15 where it says we're gonna be glorified You know, like we'll be just justified sanctified glorified and so basically the sufficiency of the blood of Christ to satisfy the wrath of God in terms of my sin is complete. And whether or not I walk in that, there's Christians that stay infants their whole lives, they're never sanctified, they don't go beyond a certain level, they never allow the Holy Spirit to have access to some real estate in their hearts. They are just infants, they're babies. But they're still under the grace of Christ because they recognize the salvation of Christ, the efficiency of His sacrifice.

So when I get to heaven, I am then removed from this body of sin. It says in Romans 8, it says, who will save me from this body of death? Romans 7. And then Romans 8 is like, thanks be to God. There is no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus. So that's how a Protestant... I think that's traditional Protestantism. I also think it's biblical in the sense that that's how Paul and Peter and anyone that wrote the New Testament would have seen this. They would have seen it like,

this is a temporary place. We are saved here. But it doesn't mean when we get to heaven, there aren't... There's different thrones, there's different places where people sit and there's different levels. I don't know exactly what that... But it seems to me like when he said, well, who sits on my left hand, who sits on my right hand? Jesus is like, it's up to the Lord, it's up to the Father. But those are positions of authority, they're positions of blessing, and it's probably people that are more sanctified than I am, is what I would say. of blessing and it's probably people that are more sanctified than I am, is what I would say. And even the apostles, who knows? So I look at it like, and this is where Lewis would say that does the tree fall as it, or

does it lie as it falls? Do we have anything beyond? And you can read the great divorce and maybe that's the way it is, I don't know. But I look at it like that, where Christ's sacrifice is completely sufficient for me, which is... You know Catholics think that bit, what you just said there. Now, about the intricacies of different Protestants versus Catholics' eteriology, meaning the study of salvation, I don't think I'm good enough to talk about that. But we can get back to that though in a second. But I mean, of course Christ's death is infinite in merit, and He is the reason

for my salvation. So the Catholic would agree with that. And in saying that we can ask the saints to pray for us is not to usurp His authority, nor is it to say that his power is somehow limited, so we've got to get a tag team of people in heaven. Yeah. It would be more like if I ask you to pray for me. Sure. You don't say, there's one mediator, buddy. Why are you coming to me?

Yes. You know? You're like, yeah, I'll pray for you. Of course I will. Of course I'll pray for you. Now, if I was to say, I can't actually pray to Jesus, I have to go through you. You'd be like, okay, now you're in theological error.

Yeah. And so the Catholic position would be that those in heaven are more alive than us, that we're not dead. We see in Revelation, those beings offering the prayers or the incense, which is the prayers of the faithful. Sure. I'm going to too many, I apologize. Yeah, I think that's- I'm bouncing around too much.

Maybe a different subject. Yeah, we can say with the theology. So if, I don't know if it was Luther who talked about snow-covered dung hill, or if that's just something attributed to him. But I think I would feel more comfortable with a dung-covered snow hill. That is to say, I don't think it's merely a matter of Christ laying His righteousness upon me and pretending I have that righteousness, but rather that He actually makes me righteous from the inside out.

Yes. No, I... And that's the process of sanctification. That is the sanctification. Yeah. So I think we agree on that for sure. Yeah. Yeah, because there's a process by which we become more like Christ and that those sins

actually do fall off of us, like over time. Praise God. Because otherwise, we'd be just wallowing in our sin for our whole lives. It'd be awful. You know what gives me great hope is the older I'm getting, and the more I walk with the Lord and sit before His gaze of love, I am experiencing transformation.

And I shout that with great joy and praise. Praise God. All His work. And the reason I know that's true is I know that it's not age that makes us holy, because there's plenty of seven year olds having another woman, another affair, buying a new thing. And maybe I'll do that.

God have mercy on me a sinner. But I just find- No, don't do that. You're not gonna do that. I don't want to do that. But I know I'm wretched and so I'm capable of it. But I just trust in His love. And you think, OK, there's got to be whatever the benefits are

of sitting within the sunshine. Yes. I find that holiness in my own life is not a matter of effort. It's a matter of sitting before the one who loves me. And I'm putting this clunkily, but having him tell me who I am and having me believe him and that's where I see the greatest progress is where I sit before his affection and receive his kindness and believe what he has to say about me. I like that. I think that's why we need to be in the word every day. Like that's why I read the scripture

every day. It's why I pray every day. We get up in the morning and we're just in it. That's the only way I can start the day. It's because we have to spend time with Him. And when there's big questions or times where I don't know what to do, I'll just lock myself in a closet and seek Him and just wait till He shows up.

It could take hours. It could take, one time it took five hours. and I was just sitting there just waiting, just waiting, like I'm here, like I'm waiting for you. And so I totally agree, it's the experience of the resurrected Christ in my own life that changes my spirit. It's not me trying and effort and any of that. I know that, yeah, and you know it too, it sounds like. I know that from experience, like what I'm saying is, if I've seen degrees of sanctification in my life, it's never when I've been angry with myself for being such a doofus. It's really been a sort of surrender, a sort of release to an abandonment to Him. Yes. What do you think the number one misconception Catholics have of Protestants is?

Oh, that's a great question. I'd have to get into the mind of a Catholic. Yeah. But do you, I mean, maybe you don't dialogue a lot with Catholics, so maybe you're not aware of any, but. I think we stay away from some of these subjects though, which I think is why it's so important to talk about it with, you know, you today.

Cause I want to, I actually, these are the burning questions. Like these are the reasons, these are what, this is what I want to talk to Catholics about all the time. Yeah. Well, go on. Let's do it. I would say the most... What are the... As a Catholic, I'm trying to formulate a good question. Well, I think Protestant... There's Protestantisms. I don't think Protestantism exists. I think... Yeah, maybe tell me, tell me what you think. Well, that's a good... I mean, you've already talked about three different kind of branches of Protestantism, and I'm sure you've experienced that within the umbrella of Protestantisms is

divergent, yeah, disagreements about crucial matters, like what is the role of the Word of God or the nature of baptism? I think what you just said, I think crucial is the point. Like, so the essentials, where we get where we agree, where we disagree. Yeah. Truthly is a groundbreaking Catholic AI app built to help you know, live and defend the Catholic faith with clarity and confidence. Whether you're navigating a tough conversation, deepening your understanding,

or looking for daily spiritual guidance, Truthly is your companion on the journey. It's like if ChatGPT went through OCIA, got baptized, and made it its mission to proclaim the truth of the Catholic Church. But Truthly is more than just a Q&A tool. It's formation

in your pocket. Take audio courses on topics like the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Eucharist, Purgatory, and why the Catholic Church is the one founded by Jesus Christ. Each course is designed to be accessible, engaging, and deeply rooted in the teachings of the Church. You'll also receive daily audio reflections, short, powerful meditations to help you grow in prayer

and stay grounded in your spiritual life. Already downloaded by thousands of people worldwide, Truthly is transforming the way we learn, share and live our faith. One question, one course and one prayer at a time. Start your seven-day free trial today. Download Truthly on the App Store, coming soon to Android. And I think there's probably about nine essentials. Okay, who makes that claim? So I, just the essentials of the faith, right? That's a good question.

I know, but you say that like it's a thing, but I mean, people who disagree with you have different essentials. Well, right, the progressives definitely do. Like their essentials are different. Yeah, but progressive is a pejorative. That's a pejorative, right? That's a way to dismiss those who disagree with your essentials. I think those theologically progressive people actually use that as their own moniker, whatever.

They own that. They know they're progressive Christians. Well, what about... I mean, Calvinists wouldn't... You wouldn't describe Calvinists as progressive? No. Well, so, yeah. So I guess in my terminology, in the terminology of the kind of Protestant

church right now, the progressive church is like, the scripture is not authoritative. That's the first thing. So like we don't have anything to stand on. Myself is authoritative. They would say that, Jesus, whatever, what else? What are the other ones that they would talk about? You know, Alyssa Childers would be a great person for you to talk like her a lot isn't she great I let her on the show have you she's so yeah, it was a Skype interview back in the day But I mean I haven't been following her work, but I enjoyed my conversation

She does a great job like she'd be an example right of someone I who disagree strongly with Catholics says as much and yet I wouldn't consider her anti-catholic I would say yeah, I given given how you understand us. I see why you would strongly with Catholics says as much, and yet I wouldn't consider her anti-Catholic. I would say, yeah, given how you understand us, I see why you would disagree with Catholics. Right. Yeah. Like I think you're wrong, but I don't think you're an anti-Catholic. Right. Yeah.

And I would say that's probably true. I'm not anti-Catholic. I would say, yeah, I may be wrong about my characterization of Catholics. Like that's the one thing I'm open to is the idea that somehow I'm wrong about this. I think what's hard for Catholics like myself is, Catholics. Like that's the one thing I'm open to is the idea that somehow I'm wrong about this. I think what's hard for Catholics like myself is, or any, most Catholics, as I wouldn't

consider myself an apologist, I'm not Catholic answer man, like you said, you're not Protestant answer man. But I think what's difficult for a Catholic is Protestants often have a wide array of things they disagree with. And so when you get into conversations like this, the Protestant, fair enough, right, he's got disagreements. Why do you call a priest father? And what's with purgatory? And why do you pray to saints? And what's the deal with Mary?

And you guys have statues. And it's like, it's like a, it's difficult to respond to everything. So it's almost like when I would talk to a Protestant, if I was having an ongoing conversation with him, I'd say, okay, like what's the number one thing? And if we could sort that out, Right.

And you could go, okay, I'm closer than I thought. Would you then be open to considering that maybe these lesser things are doable too? Yeah, no, I would say, and I think that's probably true in the opposite as well. Like if there's ways for us, I can talk about my experience with Christ so much more effectively than I can somebody else's perspective. Like, I'm trying to think, like

even our conversation already, it's easier for me to say, like, well, hey, the sufficiency of Christ has been good enough for me, instead of saying, like, well, I don't know why Mary's there. Like, you know, it's like, well, I just, I don't have any experience with her and I don't know what it is. And I don't know why I would need her because I have Jesus. Okay, let me, let me, can I press on that? Yeah, press on it. You wouldn't say that if I asked you to pray for me. You wouldn't say, why do you need me? I don't see where in the apostles it, there's any examples of this? So if you can give me examples from scripture

where people are reaching out to those that are departed. So I would agree with you. I would say that within the New Testament, I can't think of one explicit example where a Christian on earth is requesting the prayers of a Christian in heaven. Yes, and I think the way you're describing that is really interesting.

So the Christian on earth versus the Christian in heaven. Let me conclude. I get that. I agree. Because they're alive. Well, I think that. I mean, not the God of the dead. So I agree with that. But then I do think, though, you can look at biblical principles

that show why the earliest, one of the earliest prayers we have is prayers to the Blessed Virgin for in the first hundred years or so. And that would be things like this. It's like we can ask earthly Christians to pray for us, and we can do so in a way that doesn't usurp the soul mediatorship of Christ. Why not think I could ask the saints in heaven to pray for me? Now, I think there's a confusion of terms here sometimes, because often the Protestant means the word pray synonymous with worship. Not always, perhaps, but sometimes. Whereas the Catholic might mean prayer in the old English sense, which like... Pray, tell me. Yes. Yeah. So when I pray to Mary or pray to St. Francis. I'm not worshipping them.

I'm asking them to intercede for me. Suppose my wife's on her deathbed and she loves the Lord and I know that she'll be with him and I could see it being the most natural thing in the world after her death, as men talk to their dead wives or vice versa, like, honey, tell the Lord to help me with this. And I just think that seems natural. It's not forbidden by scripture. It makes sense to me using biblical principles. Also in Revelation, having those elders offering the prayers of the saints.

So we know that those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth, since we have elders in heaven offering the prayers. So then I guess you would say, okay, fair enough, but even though they're aware of it, that doesn't mean you're allowed to tell them it. But I don't know, I would say the freedom of a Christian would be like, well, why think I shouldn't if it's not condemned in scripture, if this dates back to the earliest days of Christianity. Unless it is condemned in terms of speaking to the

dead. Right, but what you're talking about is being alive people. You're talking about... Yeah, exactly. And that's the distinction, because it's the opposite of necromancy. Here's why it's the opposite. In necromancy, I'm trying to get information from the dead. When I pray to the saints, I'm giving information to the dead who are really alive in Christ. Like I'm not actually trying to get secret information from the dead in an illicit way. Yeah, it's transactional in this. I'm giving them my requests. The occult always is, the transactional relationship between a spiritual being and a person, and there's some offering given in order for some power or some information.

Yeah, that's not what we're doing. So I guess, I think what Catholics would like is for you to disagree with us, but based on what we're telling you, we believe. It's sort of like when Catholics call Mary the mother of God. We'd like you to realize that we're not saying that she existed before God. What we're saying is Jesus is God and Mary is his mother, ergo, Mary is the mother of God.

That's what we mean. And so just disagree with this is fine, but please, please trust me when I say that this is what I think. Well, no, I would say, yeah, Mary, the mother of Jesus, the mother of God, makes sense in an earthly sense. Earthly sense. Yeah. Does that relationship stay? Because even Jesus says, he says, oh, who are my mother and my brothers? Like people that do the will of God. Who are they? Because they're like, oh, your mom, your mother and your brothers are here. He's like, no, no, they're not my mother and brothers. You guys are the people that obey or maybe not you guys, but but do you interpret in Christ's words there a sort of dismissal of his own

mother? He does it twice with her. Okay. He's like, mother. You want to be really careful, I think, before accusing Christ of breaking one of the Ten Commandments. Oh, dismissing. But surely you're not saying he's dishonoring his mother. I don't think he is. Good.

I don't think he is. I don't think anyone has ever interpreted it that way. I think they'd be wrong to. He's not, I think you're right. I'll be careful about how I say this, but I don't think he's dishonoring her. I think he's flipping the script and saying, no, actually, my relatives are these people, the people that follow the will of God. He's not dishonoring Mary, but there's times where he's

like, no, it's not my time yet. Don't tell me what to do. Then he does it. Then he does it. He does do it. Yeah, but again, I don't think it was, don't tell me what to do. Then he does it. Then he does it. He does do it. Yeah, but again, I don't think it was, don't tell me what to do. Yeah. That's an interpretation of what it is. No, you're right. You're right.

You're right. That was, yeah, I shouldn't have said that. Yeah. But he doesn't seem to treat her like that. The way we would see it is, we understand Mary in light of the Old Testament, right? So in the ancient Near East, in the Davidic monarchy, the queen was never the wife of the king, but always the mother.

The queen mother. Yeah. The Geberra was the official title given. And that's where we get the sort of the monarchistic view of heaven, where the queen mother exists now. And then. Well, that's how we get it. Right. That's what I'm saying. Like, yeah. So like Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines. Right. It's not like he had 700 queens. It was Bathsheba, his mother.

And if Christ is to take the throne, the Davidic throne whose kingdom will have no end, this is why the earliest Christians made the connection that Mary is the queen mother. And so we see her in Revelation 12 as the woman who gives birth to the child who would rule the nations with an iron scepter. We see her as both an image of the church, right, with the 12 apostles, an image of Israel with the 12 tribes, but also the Virgin Mother

of God who gives birth to Christ's son. No, I get that too. I think we get into... There's a couple of, I guess maybe it's more practical on the Protestant side, like where you look at, you know, Mary being a perpetual virgin. Which every Protestant reformer agree with, by the way, everyone, Calvin, Luther, all of them. Yeah, is that true? Isn't that interesting?

It's a true, like, here's a way to put it, that's more understated, if it were true, and I'm not just feeding you a line right now, that'd be interesting. I would definitely consider it. I think that looking at it, because he had brothers and sisters. Right, but he didn't.

Like he had relatives. Well, that's what we say, but it said brothers. That's what the translated word is, but the translated word from the Greek is Adelphos, or Adelphoi, which doesn't necessarily mean uterine brother or sister. Like James is not the brother of Jesus. He's the cousin or something like that. That's how you have to interpret it.

It's like when Christ appears, like so many hundred brothers, it's not blood brothers. So what I'm saying is, this is where I think the Protestant has to go, because I want Protestants, like I want you, because is where I think the Protestant has to go, because I want Protestants, like I want you, because I think one way to try to convert you, which I want to do, is not to try to make you bite the entire thing off all at once. But I think what you can do as a Protestant is like, okay, if everyone in church history up until the time of the reformers thought

that Mary was always a virgin, and now all of a sudden most Protestants seem to think she wasn't. Yeah. Then as a Protestant you can go, okay, I'm still a Protestant, but I now disagree with the assessment that she had of the children. But we also have to believe she was sinless. Yeah, but that's what I said. I'm going easy. I'm going slow with you. I'm trying to hoodwink you. I'm trying to get you to accept one thing at a time. But it's so hard to not go- Yes, why not accept that she was sinless? I'm trying to hoodwink you. I'm trying to get you to accept one thing at a time. That's the easiest thing.

But it's so hard to not go. Yes, why not accept that she was sinless? Sinlessness and then also. No, fair enough. The sinlessness of Anne, like her mother. No, no. Why would you have to accept that? There's people that believe that.

And then. There's no Catholic who believes that. Okay, all right. Yeah. So there's a lining for us. But then, Mary. No, no, no, there's not a line. It's not, the argument, if I'm talking too much,

I don't mean to build issues. No, no, I'm just asking no line. It's not, the argument, if I'm talking too much, I don't mean to bulldoze you. No, no, I'm just asking about. In my chat with Dennis Prager, sometimes it felt like he was bulldozing me, but it's just cause he was excited. I'm doing the same thing, so don't shut up. No, I get it. But just real quick, it's, the argument isn't that

if Mary was a sinner, Christ would have been too. That's not the argument. We acknowledge that Christ could have been born of a prostitute. Yeah. Yeah. So then, cause if one was to hold, well, Mary had to be sinless, or else Christ couldn't be, which is not the church's teaching. Then I see why you would then say, well, then Anne must have had to be, and then there was this line back, but that's not what the church teaches.

All right. Yeah. Okay. So, but even her sinlessness, I think is, I mean, that's never stated in Scripture ever. And look at you with your eyebrows. Oh, man. I just love her so much. I'm so glad you love her. I think there are ways to... I think there are ways...

And I honor Mary as the mother of Jesus. Stop it. It's like, I have a gay friend. I love him. I like Mary. Shut up. Don't get me wrong. I don't talk to her, you know, but I like her. No, fair...

Yeah. This is why, if I was... This is the difference between I don't talk to her, you know, but I like her. No, fair, yeah. This is why, if I was, this is the difference between how I would talk to Protestants today as I would 15 years ago. Like 15 years ago, I would have had to have the right answer and say it perfectly and get really flustered about it. Sure, sure. Because I was more immature, I think.

Whereas today I recognize, okay, yeah, like that's fine. I'm hitting the button. You have it legitimated. This is a big button. What, Mary? Yeah. Oh yeah, I just love her so much. Hmm. I mean, I don't think just with you, I think this is the button for Catholics. This is it, right?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, anyways, I'm sorry to interrupt. You were going to say something about... Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I think, I mean, some people try to make the argument that from, where is it? Luke 1, 40 something? Maybe I've got that wrong. Where the angel calls her full of grace. Like, it's pretty wild that he doesn't call her Mary, even in our prayer, Hail Mary, full of grace.

He doesn't say that. He uses his Greek word, kakaritamene, which means she who has been graced. So some people will try to extrapolate that, that she was sinless. I think there might be more to it, because I don't know if I like that argument, doesn't sound terribly strong. But sometimes I'll hear Catholics make the case and it makes more sense to me. Isn't it just because it was stated from the Holy See that we believe these things, especially these things? Well, so the reason the church makes proclamations about things is to clear up confusion when it arises. Sure. So even though you've got Damasus I at the Council of Rome in 382 making this definitive list of here are the scriptures, right? You also have it doing the same thing in Florence, and then I believe it was definitive at Trent. Okay, so you think, okay, well then why is the church only doing it at Trent?

It's like, well, because it's after the Protestant Reformation, and now this confusion has grown such that the church has to clarify these things. It's the same thing why at the Council of Nicaea, the church had to make certain proclamations about Christ. So, yes, the church clears up confusion when the confusion hits a fevered pitch. So I don't know, like suppose, I don't know, like suppose right now there was this movement that started to make the claim and to believe that Mary was an extraterrestrial who was brought here by a UFO. And suppose that started to gain traction

within Catholic communities. Then what would likely happen is the church would make an authoritative statement. Pope Francis would say, possibly, right? They're absolutely right. No, they wouldn't. Right, but you could imagine, oh yeah, the church, you guys just believe that.

The church said that in 2028. Now it's like, no, no, the church, you guys just believe that. The church said that in 2028, and now it's like, no, no, the church has always taught this. It just was cleared up at a later date. Okay, that makes sense. I mean, I get what you're saying. Yeah, but no, I do accept it because the church teaches it. That is the primary reason I accept it. Yeah, that's the primary reason.

Yes. Yeah, so I think that being suspicious of the church's teachings on some of these issues is inherent in being a Protestant. And an American. And an American. I agree with that. It is the system.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like an individualistic Protestant, which I think Americanism comes from Protestantism in terms of the enlightenment and all those types of things. I think all that stuff sort of feeds into the American individualism. But I am probably a child of that. So I look at these things and I go, okay, where's... I mean, some of these things don't make any sense to me as that guy that grew up in the church that I grew up in. And so I look at it and I still go back to the Bible and I'm like, I don't see any,

I don't even see the seeds of these things in here. And these are the earliest writings. We agree they're the earliest writings. The contemporaries weren't writing about this stuff, even if they were writing at the time, like the Gnostic gospels, like they don't write about this. And so it does come up. Here's an example of where there are,

so you have what's called the Protoevangelium of James. Okay. The Catholics do not accept the scripture and yet was written around the exact same time that the scriptures were written. And it talks about Mary being a perpetual virgin and being given to the temple and making this consecration.

And this is, it's a, I haven't heard of the proven, so this was a work that was written when? I'm gonna guess and then we're gonna look it up and then I'm gonna be embarrassed. All right. I think it's really early, that's different. I mean, like it's like 90 when all the other ones

were written 60 to 90, then we get, you know, then there's argument to be made. But I would say, even with stuff that's written in the 200s, 300s, that's a long time, if you think about it. That's 100 years, 200 years after. A lot can shift, a lot can change, especially in an environment where not everybody has access to the Scripture. And so there's these little rogue groups that are starting up, springing up, and kind of coming up with theologies and things like that. It's almost like Protestantism.

Exactly. Which is why Ignatius of Antioch, he uses the word Catholic in AD 108 in his letter to the Smyrnans. Again, like though, but that's the... But he's using it to distinguish the true church from the splinter church. The universal church, right? Like this is not Catholic capital C, right? No, it's 100% both. It's capital C. Yeah. Okay. The Catholic, the universal Catholic church. Yes. Okay. All right. All right. You know how hard it is to tell,

All right, you know how hard it is to tell, to write Proto Evangelium of James when you don't really know how to spell it? You should do it voice to text. There's no way it'll know. Proto Evangelium. It's the only Proto Evangelium I'm aware of. The Proto Evangelium of James, also known as the Infancy Gospel of James,

was likely written in the mid to late second century. So that's between 150 and 200. So again, I'm not saying what it says is true. I can reject it. But it's interesting that it says, it's an apocryphal text that focuses on the birth and early life of the Virgin Mary, and it talks about her being a perpetual Virgin.

Like that's weird. That's weird that that was a common belief in the early church that maintained till after the Protestant revolution. But the Gnostic texts were being written at the same time and they were definitely veering off the main path, you know, like we're talking about. So what I would say this proves. Yeah, so I would agree with you.

This doesn't prove that Mary was a perpetual virgin. But what it does, I think, prove is that there was an understanding of people taking vows of perpetual virginity, or else it wouldn't have made any sense. Well, which is why this is funny. We're talking about the perbe... This is one of the greatest Babylon Bee jokes that we've ever made, and it offended a lot of Catholics. Okay, before... Yeah.

I want you to offend Catholics, but first, let me at least offend you. What did the Protestant Reformers say about the perpetual virginity of Mary? All right, baby. Here we go. Many of the major Protestant reformers, Martin Luther, John Calvert, or Ulrich Zwingli,

affirmed Mary's perpetual virginity. Despite later Protestant traditions rejecting it. Listen to Luther. It is an article of faith that Mary is mother of the Lord and still a virgin. Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact. He also said, she, the worthy mother of God, bore in her virginity a true human being who was also the son of God. And then we've got Calvin, who's way more aggressive than even Luther was.

So there you go. Just give up your idea that she wasn't a perpetual. It's a good thing I'm not a reformer. Be like a cool Protestant. It's like your idea that you weren't a perpetual. It's a good thing I'm not a reformer. Be like a cool Protestant. He's like, no, of course he was perpetual. Yeah, it's just unnecessary. Like I don't think it's necessary for Jesus. According to God, it wasn't

because that's the way he brought it up. According to the Catholic teaching, not necessarily according to God. And the Protestant reformers. So I think there's two different types of this. But not the New Testament. Again, like that's- No, because I reject your view

that the scriptures depict him of having uterine blood brothers and sisters. Well, the other thing is Luther agreed with transubstantiation too, which I don't necessarily- Dude, you have to, I mean- Although I've been flirting with it. You can't find one early person

in the church who disagrees with it. You can't, one early person in the church who disagrees with it. You can't, one early person recognized as Orthodox at the time who rejects it. That's so interesting. You just can't, I dare you to look it up. The Eucharist, yeah. Or watch my debate with Cameron Batuzzi about this. He's now a Catholic.

Because the evidence is overwhelming. No, I did, I totally won. Nothing to do with my brilliance, but all because dude, this is no one who- Well, I can be a Protestant and still believe in transubstantiation. Yeah, but I would disagree that you experience it in your Protestant communion.

Oh, I see. You don't have the priesthood. Oh, well see, the priesthood is also unnecessary. Like I would say that's true too. I know you keep saying that, but I don't think it makes it so. So when you say unnecessary, do you mean God doesn't need us?

God doesn't need Mary? God doesn't need- No, I would say that the body of Christ, yes, there's a hierarchy, but I don't think it's centralized the way that we think it is. I think the head is Christ. Agreed.

And I think it's decentralized, and I think there's structures within different groups that are- Decentralized, what does that mean? Well, I mean, it doesn't all come through Rome, is what I'm saying. But you wouldn't have thought that in the Acts of the Apostles.

Yeah. You wouldn't have thought it was decentralized then. I would say, right, there was a very smaller, a much smaller group of people- Of course. That all knew each other. And also there was an actual hierarchy, right? Like if the Bereans searched the scriptures day and night,

and then disagreed with Paul, they would have been wrong. Right. They would have been wrong. Cool. Yeah, absolutely. So what I'm saying is just- But the apostles had a unique authority that other people don't.

100%. And even the later people, even the later, they're insubject to the apostles. So if you're like they're subjected to, so Ignatius is subjected to John. If he disagrees with John, then he's wrong. Yeah, I agree the apostles have a special authority, of course, but I disagree that once the last apostle died, there was no authority anymore.

There was the... I agree, well, and I would say that too, but I don't think it's the same type of authority. I think it's a different kind of authority. Like the... Is it authority we should submit to? Yeah. I mean, if it isn't, why would we call it an authority? Sure. But I also think that these people, if they disagree with the apostles, or if they expand in a way that detracts from what the apostles taught, then they're wrong.

And we don't submit to that. We have submit to the apostles. Yes, I agree. Yeah. So what I'm saying is that Catholic is we do submit to that teaching and you have manmade traditions like sola scriptura and baptism doesn't regenerate the soul and we cannot pray to the saints. It's interesting you're bringing up manmade traditions.

Yes, yes. I think Protestantism is filled with them. Well, I agree. No, you don't agree. I think there's less in Protestantism than there is in Catholic tradition. Yeah. And so I think there are, but I just think there's less.

And I think that's the reason why I like being a Protestant, because I actually think there's less man-made stuff. Yeah, but see, I think in Protestant, I know that this is a line. I mean, those clothes you have to wear, all that stuff is man-made. Well, there's clothes you have to wear. All that stuff is manmade. Well, sure, there are some manmade traditions, but that doesn't mean tradition is invalid,

or else Paul wouldn't have told us to subject ourselves to the traditions. Well, then I could have used that with the Protestant, too. Yeah, it doesn't mean traditions are invalid. Sola Scriptura, even though it's manmade, is not invalid. It's still valid. Except the scripture doesn't teach it, I wouldn't say. In Revelation, there is the verse in Revelation, if you add anything or subtract

anything from this, let you be anathema. So, like, I do think there's that. Yeah, so I agree with this statement that we can't add or subtract to the Word of God. Yes, and I know I see the Word of God broader than just the Word, like the Word. On page. On the page. The Word of God is capital W, it's Jesus, and it's glorification. That's what it is. The Word of God is Jesus, it's the Trinity, it's Father, Son, the Holy Spirit, that's the Word of God. And I think that it's expressed uniquely through the Bible and revealed uniquely through the Bible, because... And through the apostles and the apostles' teaching, which is what the Acts, the church and Acts devoted themselves to prayer and the...

Let's come up with a thought experiment that'll be really fun. Okay, let's do it. First, you tell me what would happen if you walked out of here a convinced Catholic today. What would happen in your life? And then I'll tell you what I think would happen to me if I had to give up Catholicism because you were so charming and persuasive. I would say... So if I walked out of here Catholic, I'd have a lot of explaining to do. Like, what would it look like? Hey, honey. Yeah. Hey, babe. So Matt convinced me that I'm a Catholic, that we should be Catholics.

me that I'm a Catholic, that we should be Catholics. I think that it would be a process, and we would have to probably go through some counseling. And then we would end up going to a Catholic church and figuring out how to be good Catholics. We find out your wife is funding the Babylon Bee to create hip pieces against Matt Frey. We've got a lot of Catholics, man, that we like. Anyway, so yes, we would probably find something... Yeah, no, it would be a challenge for sure. Because I mean, the Babylon Bee guys are all

hardcore. Actually, they're like reformed, like most of those guys. Like, yeah, except for Seth. Seth's like kind of charismatic or whatever, But yeah, so I don't know. There would be some challenges, I think. But it wouldn't be like, they wouldn't chop my head off or have a mercy killing or anything like that, or like an honor killing. Could we actually, that'd be fun if you could record yourself calling them and pretending that you were Catholic.

Don't do that. Yeah, that would be really funny, actually. Yeah, how about you? What would happen to you if you became a Protestant? Oh, my life would, I mean, it would just really funny, actually. Yeah, how about you? What would happen to you if you became a Protestant? I mean, it would just be upended entirely. You'd have to go pints with the apostles. Pints of water with Calvin. No, the Calvinist.

P-W-A, pints of the apostles. Yeah, yeah, no. Yeah, what would it be? Yeah, it would be brutal. It would be brutal for you. It would be brutal. Yeah. And the reason I like to bring that up

is because I think that often we don't, we're not gentle and understanding of people who are on their own journey. Yeah. You know, like it takes a long time for people to process things and come to hold different opinions that are contrary to what they currently hold.

And I see a lot of impatience online. you know, people just become Catholic, you know, or Jordan Peterson, just for, you know, this impatience. And I understand that to a point. I mean, the man commentates on the Bible, like he's one of us, but he's not. So I'd like you to pick a side or stop talking about it, please. Yeah. No, I don't want you to stop talking about it, but you don't have authority to talk about it, Something like that, yeah. And so I understand that, and yet I also think people have their journeys, and we tend to get very impatient with people when the reality is,

if the person watching, let's say you're Protestant, if you were to become Catholic, it would upend your life in many respects, maybe. And if you were a Catholic and you would become a Mormon, like think about what would go off in your life. I mean, it would just be. Well, I think if you're a Catholic and you would become a Mormon, like think about what would go off in your life. I mean, it would just be if, well, I think if you became a Mormon, it would be a different experience. If you're a Mormon, you become a Christian, you lose your whole community. Thank you for clarifying, because I'm not equating Protestants with Mormons.

Yeah. Well, I would say, yeah, there's a difference there. And in terms of, I would say orthodoxy, Like there's a difference in orthodoxy, authority. Like if we look at, because the Catholics and the Protestants both look at the Bible and say, yeah, this is authoritative. I think that Catholics less so, obviously. But, and it's weird because this is one of the criticisms I would have, yeah, I think so. I think many times it is a cultural thing.

It's like, man, I would have to change everything if I were convinced of this, or maybe I don't need the trappings. Like if I were to somehow convince you that you don't need the trappings in the Catholic Church, I think it would be very awkward for you to step into a non-denominational church, possibly. Like culturally, it would be very interesting.

It would be like- I've done that a couple of times. Oh have you? I've been to a couple of denominational churches. We should go together. No, it's unnecessary. I'm just standing like a- Like what do I do?

You're all weird. Stop standing. We did friend in the corner. Matt, stop it. Stop kneeling. Stop kneeling. Stop kneeling. You don't need to cross yourself.

Yeah, interesting. Yeah. I want to tell you about Hello, which is the number one downloaded prayer app in the world. It's outstanding. Hello.com slash Matt Fradd. Sign up over there right now and you will get the first three months for free. That's like a lot of time. You can decide whether it's useful to you or not, whether it's helpful. If you don't like it, you can always quit. Hello.com slash Matt Fradd. I use it. My family uses it. It's fantastic.

There are over 10,000 audio guided prayers, meditations and music, including my lo-fi. Hello has been downloaded over 15 million times in 150 different countries. It helps you pray, helps you meditate, helps you sleep better. It helps you build a daily routine and a habit of prayer. There's honestly so much excellent stuff on this app that it's difficult to get through it all. Just go check it out. Hello.com slash Matt Fradd. The link is in the description below. It even has an entire section for kids. So if you're a parent, you could play little Bible stories for them at night. It'll help them pray. Fantastic. Hello.com slash Matt Fradd. No, but I do think, um, yeah, there's, there's just certain things I, uh,

can I, there's a great quote here. I don't think it's from, I thought do think, yeah, there's just certain things. There's a great quote here. I don't think it's from, I thought it was from Lewis, but someone told me it wasn't. Whoever said it, it's something like this. Catholics look at Protestants, or what Protestants believe as a sort of barren wasteland. Where is everything? And Protestants look at Catholics like an overrun jungle.

Like, what is all this stuff? What's all this? I like that a lot because it makes us both feel uncomfortable. I like that. Oh, 100. I think it's so funny. Well, and I would say too, like, if I were to become a Catholic,

there's a couple of Catholics I know that are charismatic Catholics that are like Pentecostal Catholics. I'd probably have to do that. Because like, huh? You got to. I have to. It'd be an easy enculturation at least.

Well, yeah. I know some of this. Yeah, I know some of it. Yeah, so, so Chuck and Carrie, who are the directors of Nefarious and Unplanned, which I was in both of those movies. And yeah, did you not know this? You were in Nefarious?

Yeah, I was in Nefarious, bro. Did you like that movie? Lead with that. Yeah. I loved that movie. Yeah, it was a great movie. Except the weird bit at the end with Glenn Beck. That was the worst thing that ever happened to that movie.

You don't have to agree, don't agree, don't agree. Because this will be public. But I don't care. It was so weird. But up until that point, it was one of the best movies I remember watching. Well, it was just that, I think the thing with Glenn is that Glenn is Glenn.

And so like when it came to Glenn, everyone's like, oh, this is Glenn. So like, it may have pulled you out. I think it was more than that. I think that was part of it for sure. Maybe pulled you out of the story a little bit. And it's not a criticism on him. It was just that whole segment.

Like if anyone had it done, I'm like, wait, what's happening? I don't. It's funny, I'm in another movie. Yeah, you're right. Maybe it had a lot to do with the fact that, so, okay, wait, what's happening? I don't. It's funny. I'm in another movie. Yeah, you're right. Maybe it had a lot to do with the fact that, so, okay, now it's like when you see a teacher

in the supermarket, you have worlds colliding. Maybe it was like that. Well, it's almost like a Peter Jackson moment where he shows up and has lines or something, you know, like, cause Peter Jackson always put himself in the movie. And so if he were to show up and be like, I'm Peter Jackson, and then be like, wait,

is this Lord of the Rings anymore? Like what's going on? But yeah, I don't want to detract from how excellent that film was and how, oh my gosh, it was so beautiful. That actor was one of the best I've seen. Sean Patrick Flannery. I got to see him do that live. Like, I actually got to see him do that.

Oh my goodness. OK, so where were you in the movie? So I have a really small part. So in fact, the story's really funny. Yes. They called me up and they're like, Jared, we want you for this movie. It's going to be great.

You're going to have like seven scenes. It's going to be awesome. You can have a whole character arc. We've got this thing planned out. And I was like, great, dude, this is crazy. It's my break. Like, you know, I've been waiting for this. So that's part of my story is like, you know,

I quit for a long time. I gave it to the Lord and he started giving me back things. So I got to do a small scene in unplanned and then, okay, which was the same group. And then nefarious came along and they were like, yeah, we'd love to have you. Then he calls me back a couple of weeks later, he's like, hey, listen, you know,

actually we whittled it down to three really good scenes. It's awesome, but you're gonna still do it. Then Then they call me a couple weeks later and like, yeah, you got one great scene. One great scene. But it is great. You get to tell the guy where the phone is. It's amazing. So I end up going and actually it was a really,

it was a good scene. I actually got to have some tension with the main character and I got to kind of be like, no. It's kind of very similar to what I did in Unplanned, which was one of the main characters asked me, like, hey, can we pray for these barrels, these barrels of body parts? And I was like, I'm going to lose my job if you guys do that. And so maybe, okay, I'll just let you do it. And so then there was that scene.

And I'm so, I don't know if you remember that scene in the movie, but like it was... I have a vague recollection of it. Yeah, it was actually really powerful. And I was so grateful that we... Now I get to be in the scene. I'm glad that they shot the other guy first, because I was crying, because the guy started praying for these babies. And it was just really profound. It was like the Holy Spirit fell on the place. I couldn't really... I was like having a hard time. And so when they switched finally, I was over it. And then Nefarious was a similar thing. It was like, hey, look, by the way, the phone's down there. I'm gonna record it just so you know.

And it's right before he like calls his girlfriend to stop her from having the abortion or to talk to her about the abortion. So anyway, so that was the same thing. And it was a lot of fun, man. It was really cool. Is it difficult to not overact when you're like, this is my one chance.

I've got to show the world what I can do. I imagine. Yeah, well, it's funny because even in Homestead, like it was the same thing. I got those at home real quick. Yeah. Homestead Angel release just over Christmas last year. I don't know when this is coming out, but

You and I went washed it. Yes together. We watched it together I thought it was excellent Matt was standing in the theater Shouting at the screen like don't do it, you know, like it was it was sitting next to the actor I was happening and then I think you and who was with us Matt Matt. What a guy Yeah, what a guy you two were talking too much. So I went down. Yes, you had to listen. Because there was no one else in the theater. I mean, the theater was packed, is what I meant. Yeah. And, uh.

Well, it did make $21 million in the box office. So it really did well. Congratulations. It's better than flipping, am I a racist? I mean, like, pittance. Just kidding. Am I a racist? Made like 13.

I don't know. Oh, it did do better than am I racist? Oh, yeah. Congrats. Yeah, that was cool. I mean, I'm just saying that Oh, it did do better than Am I Racist? Oh yeah. Congrats. Yeah, that was cool. I mean, I'm just saying that because Justin is a friend of mine anyway,

but all that to say, yeah, wasn't, oh, in Homestead, I got these maybe three scenes. So I worked my tail off, cause I was like, this matters more than anything I've ever done. So I had to work really hard. I worked super hard on it. And then I did my three scenes and they liked it so much

that they brought me back and they gave me a bunch of other scenes. And like, it was so cool. Like it was like, so I would say to an actor, like put everything into that scene, overacting, you know, like, yeah, don't do that, but like do everything, do all your homework, work really hard on that scene.

Cause you don't know, like that might be the one that allows you to do more stuff. So that's cool. So you thought, so it's kind of the opposite of nefarious where you thought you may only have one scene, but then they brought you back. Yeah, it was the opposite. Yeah. So it was good.

It was a blessing, man. It was so much fun. Yeah. So, but I would, but my whole point with saying that was if I were to become a Catholic, I'd have to be like Chuck and Carrie. Like those guys, he calls me up in the middle of the night and he goes, Jared, I want you to know the Holy Spirit woke me up. He's like, he keeps waking me up and it reminds me of you.

He wants me to know that you're supposed to be in this movie. And I was like, okay, that's amazing. So he did that with unplanned actually, it was so funny. Yeah, he thought he's like, you are my guy. Now, so how is he related to these movies? He's the director, sorry. Okay. Yeah, Carrie Solomon. Yeah. Wow.

And he's a Pentecostal Catholic, like that's his like, or charismatic Catholic. I don't know how you describe it. Yeah, you would just say Catholic who leans into the promptings of the Holy Spirit. Yeah, charismatic short-term, I suppose you could say it. Yeah. Well, that's awesome, man.

Yeah. Yeah, so. I remember being, when you asked me, because it was you, me, and Matt, again, Protestant Jew and a Catholic hanging out, and you suggested we go to this movie. I was looking forward to going, for sure. But I didn't expect it to be that good.

Yeah. And that's not, I hope that doesn't sound like a slight to Angel Studios. Yeah. And that's not, I hope that doesn't sound like a slight to Angel Studios. No. But you know, we've all just seen enough bad Christian movies to be kind of like, OK, like I think I know what I'm going to get. No, it was actually really good acting. Yeah.

So do you see, is that what they called, Angel Studios, or what are they called? Yeah, so Angel Studios was the distributor. Oh, OK. Yeah, I don't understand the distinctions here. I don't know exactly. I mean, who is it we partnered with us on production? Who's us? So it was us, meaning when I say us,

the production company was a different company. But it may have been under the umbrella of Angel, I don't know. But I do know that Angel Studios was the distributor of choice. So when they're the distributor, they're not directing, they're not filming, they've got no say. Well, they have all the say because they're bringing the money. Oh, so they don't produce it. What's the producer? So it was a different company, but I don't know. Yeah, it depends on the structure. So Angel will produce movies like all the way through, like from the beginning. So it'll be like a production by Angel Studios. We funded it. will produce movies all the way through, from the beginning. So it'll be a production by Angel Studios.

We funded it. We took it all the way through production, paid everybody. And then there's ones that are separate from Angel Studios and just use them as a distributor. And that's still Angel, but it's not the same. And I think Holmes said, I really don't know what the financial structure was, but I do know that the TV series was funded by Angel.

So it's like, so there's two episodes out and they're going to start filming the new episodes. And I'm in it. Yeah. So it's really cool. Yeah. I'm excited. Yeah.

I don't know exactly. I it's, we'll see what happens. I don't know what they're going to do with me. Have you been happy with the first two episodes or would you be honest if you didn't like them? No, I actually was very happy with them. I thought they were really interesting. They brought in a guy named Chip Esten, who Neil had some things come up and he couldn't do it.

So they brought in Chip Esten. And Chip Esten is very compelling. He's a really good actor. And he was in Outer Banks. And he played the father in Outer Banks He also was in what else was he in Nashville? He played Deacon in Nashville. I didn't see it. Yeah, should I yeah? I don't know. I it's been a long time since I've seen but Outer Banks was pretty good. I like that one Yeah, so what do you?

Because it is interesting When I give up the internet and I do this every weekend, which is why I didn't text you yesterday, I'm sorry. Oh yeah, no problem. But I'll just like lock everything away and I'll just chill and I'll read books and I'll be with my family. When I'm in that space, I look forward to maybe watching a movie with the kids at night because I'm not saturated by entertainment. When I have this, I find, yeah, I listen to a podcast, I watch this thing, and then I'm like, I'm done. Like I'm, I'm, I'm entertainment-ed out.

Yeah. I think it's both, right? It's that Hollywood's not making good movies. And also, cause there's a gazillion things to watch at all times. Yeah. I think people are like, okay, I can't just watch Netflix. I can watch YouTube.

Why am I going out to a movie? Just fatigued, yeah. Yeah. So, okay. So with that said, what is the future of movie making and what is the space for, I know conservative is a wobbly term, but conservative and or Christian movies? So it's interesting. Until January, I had a pretty solid understanding of all that. I think until Trump got an office

and sort of the culture shift, it was this subversion. Like it was just growing. It was something that was unique, that was apart from Hollywood. It was separate from Hollywood. And I still think that particular industry is growing. The Daily Wire has made a big difference there. Angels made a big difference there.

There's a bunch of other companies. There's Trilogy. And there's people in the conservative Christian space that are really good storytellers. And the cool thing about it is that in this space now, we have learned from our mistakes. So you're looking at, you know, what we used to do in putting message before story.

God is not dead 18. Which by the way, those guys are- They're friends of yours? Yeah. Great, glad I insulted them. Continue. No, well, Kevin and also Chuck and Carrie and all those guys, you know.

And David Ayer-White. It was just so on the nose. It was just like a character of the atheist and- Oh yeah. Yeah. But you know, David, I was just on David Ayer-White. It was just so on the nose. It was just like a character of the atheist. Oh yeah. But you know, David, I was just on David Ayer-White's show like not too long ago. So he's the like guy that owned Pure Flix and all this stuff.

Even that name Pure Flix is gross. He bought my first movie. I produced a movie. I'd like to stop insulting your friends. But if you're going to say we've learned from so many years, I think that's gotta be one of them, right? You call something pure or like, like Net Nanny.

Remember Net Nanny? I don't, but it sounds terrible. Net Nanny existed before Covenant Eyes. And even Covenant Eyes isn't a great name. I love Covenant Eyes, it's just not a good name. Like Covenant, what is that? Like unless I'm deep into Christian weeds. Yeah, if you know like Joe.

Nanny is like, is this this woman who's gonna like look after me on the internet? Don't look at that. Pureflix has that same feel. Yeah, that's right. Oh, not that website. Yeah. Oh dear. All right, so anyway, enough trashing your friends

who I'm sure are beautiful people and have sure have done great things. You know, honestly, like you don't have to, I've said these things too. I, it's hard you don't, you don't wanna like not work again. And so I do wonder, but honestly, Nefarious and Unplanned I'm very proud of. I think both of those are great.

And I wasn't, I actually haven't been in any cheesy Christian movies. And so it's, the ones that I've been in have been good. And so I'm excited. Like I'm very proud of them. But yeah, some of the folks, some of the stuff that we've made in the last, when I say we, I include myself, like in the last 20 years, 30 years has been very preachy and very lame and it sucks and the acting sucks and the writing sucks and all those things suffer because we're trying so hard

to get the message out there, like, we gotta get it in front of people. And, you know, and there have been some points of light in that whole thing, you know, mostly from the Catholics, which is, you know, you get a guy like Mel Gibson, who's one of the best filmmakers of our generation, if not all generations, like he's incredible. And so he kind of like counts in a different,

he's somebody putting the message out there with a different, like in doing it well. So all I'd say, I think we've learned, to be more like JRR Tolkien than maybe like Lewis, like Lewis did put the message first. Good distinction. And cause he's, and I don't think that any of these things are like Lewis cause he did it very well.

He was like the best of us. But I think that Tolkien just told a really great story. And again, he was a Catholic. He did a good job. He didn't need to add religion, because the whole thing was this beautiful, infused with the mystery of... Yes. He didn't have to.

That's true. And then woke movies make the same mistake as bad Christian movies. That's true. And then like woke movies make the same mistake as bad Christian movies. That's what I was going to say is like, I think the left and the, you know, the not just the left, but Hollywood has been traditionally like all about. I mean, like Amelia Perez just came out, right? So this movie that just came out this last year.

I'm so old. What is that? It's like the worst thing that's ever been put to film. I'm glad I don't know what it is. Well, there's, I mean, everything that was up for an Oscar this year, not everything. Obviously, Dune was pretty awesome. But I think it was terrible.

One of them was a movie about a prostitute, like sex worker, that glorified sex work. That was the one that won, which is awful. And then the other one was Amelia Perez, which was about this cartel boss. It was a musical about a cartel boss who murders people. And then because they become transgender, they get forgiven for all their sins,

and they start living their true self. And now they're forgiven. They're under grace. No judgment in the movie or the storytelling. They become this great person because now they're trans. And it's like, and there's whole- Is it a comedy? No. Like, there's songs. I mean's like, and there's whole- Is it a comedy? No, like there's songs.

I mean, dude, what's her name? Zoe Saldana's in it. There's all these songs. Like one of them is like, which one would you like? Oh, I'd like to go from male to female, penis to vagina. Like this is like, these are the songs.

And like- And people liked it? I don't think anybody saw it. No one liked it. I don't think anybody saw it. No one liked it. I don't think anybody saw it and nobody liked it. Nobody cared, but it was the, it was because of what it was. It was, it was one of the movies that was up for an Oscar. Cause it was message driven and that's what they're not getting. It's like, they're making the mistakes that the Christians made in the

nineties because they're religious about their perspective. Like they, it is a religion. And it's clearly a religion because they're making propaganda. They're not even telling good stories anymore. They're not agnostic when it comes to storytelling anymore. They're not like, let's tell a really great story. But then you're starting to see points of light, like things like Disney coming out and stopping the trans character in that movie that just came out, or the TV series that came out. And they're like, we're not gonna do a trans character,

we're gonna do a sympathetic Christian character. What? Like, this is Disney, just came out with this. Did you remember, what was that movie about the contagion virus thing that spread? It was a series, it was on Hulu, on Netflix, the guy who was in Narcos, I think. that spread. It was a series. It was on Hulu on Netflix. Uh, the guy who was in Narcos, I think. Oh yeah. Uh, so God,

the Mandalorian you're talking about. No, I'm not too bad. Mandalorian. I, but I'm what's that series called? Let me see if I can find it. I don't remember. Well, it was crap and it was crap because it was woke. Like you've got this chubby chick bossing around military men because girl power or something she wasn't even like a anyway she wasn't even tough looking it was even tough looking which would have been funny enough and then second of all you've got like the one Christian character is like eating human flesh like he's killing people eating them well as soon as I knew he was Christian I knew he was the bad guy he's's going to be a villain, yeah.

Of course, that's the story you got to tell. That is the story. Isn't that funny? Christians are bad. Well, that's what the Romans did to us, too. Yeah, there was a bunch of cannibals. You see, not you, Catholics. Catholics, they didn't do it to you.

They did it to Catholics. You guys would be like, it's just a symbol. They'd be like, well, we'll let you go. They did it to Catholics. Well, would be like, it's just a symbol. They'd be like, well, we'll let you go. They did it to Catholic. Well, and then I would say, well, no. I forget it. Anyway, the point was it was a dirty Christian. He seemed lovely.

Like, oh, gosh, this is the bad guy because he's white and he's probably straight and he's a Christian, therefore. Well, and I think we have that, I think the era of making white Christian people, the bad guys is maybe over because, because it's just a really bad trope now. Yeah. Like, and I think it used to be a pretty good, it was a good story because you could, it was really a subversion. Like at the beginning when you started making the Christians the bad guys, you're like,

what? It's the, it's the pastor? Like it's the priest? What? We trusted him. Yeah, like, because they were in culture, like they were seen as good people. So like that all changed. Like if I were to... My grandfather, he was an evangelist and a pastor, and he'd go golfing or something like that. And people would find out he was a pastor and they'd be like, they would be deference, you know? Like people would be kind to him a pastor, and they'd be like, they would be deference. People would be kind to him.

Or if they were cussing the whole time, they'd be like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, pastor, I'm sorry, pastor. If he walked into a function in a city, like in the city, they'd be like, oh, it's Pastor Ben Lamaster. And everyone would be like, oh, great. Not that you want that, not that you need it, but it was just deference. It was, yeah, people were deference to what they should be deference to. You want that in that you need it, but it was just deference It was the authority or difference should be different to write that's it was you want that in society You need that right? Oh this guy what is honorable, right?

This guy's given his life up for the ministry like he's not making a lot of money He's here to serve us like we love this guy But now back now you made that analogy earlier with that fat fella on stage doing the unholy song Yeah, now we honor what's dishonorable and we dishonor like faithful marriage and we shame it and we mock it. We don't, but Hollywood often does. Yeah. Virginity, for example, being a whore, even worse than a whore, just like an unpaid whore, just a fornicator. That we hold up in reference. And like, wow, what an empowered, untethered. What an empowered woman.

I'll always stand with sex workers. That's what the actress that played the main character said in her speech. She said, I'll always stand with sex workers. Like, sex work is a thing. How about you liberate them? Yeah, like it's something to be like, oh, they're great. Yeah, they're really, it's just work.

It's just a really, it's a type of work. It's not exploitative at all. It's like such a crazy thing. Can you believe that? So anyway, yeah, now we, it used to be that when if, you know, you tell a story back then and the good people in society undermine it, you know. It is pretty wild. I don't know if you ever heard of a fellow called Bishop Fulton Sheen, Archbishop Fulton Sheen. He was like the number one television show watched, I don't even know when, 70s or so, on mainstream television in the United States. He would have a chalkboard and he would talk about it, and he was funny and he was faithful. And it's wild how quickly things swung around. But if I were, I mean, on the same side, like if I were to go out, I mean, I have to be careful who I

tell that I was in ministry for a long time. You know, if I were to golf or something, like, and hang out with a bunch of guys that I didn't know, and I had to be like, what do you do? And be like, well, I'm a pastor, like when I was doing that. And it was always... You always had to be really careful. And even still, I mean, like people asked me where I work. I'm like, well, at a satire website.

Tell me your most offensive joke. And judging from that, I'll tell you where I work. That's right. That's right. Did you watch the Oscars? If you did, then I'm not going to tell you where I work, right? Yeah.

Yeah, man. It's crazy. But I think Hollywood will end up maybe switching. Well, you would think, hey, like you would think that people would go where the money is. Yeah. But I don't know, man, after rings of power, I'm not so sure they will.

Or if you look at the destruction of San Francisco or these other places, New York City, maybe our ideologies mean more to us than flourishing. Yeah, I think that's probably, that's apparent. Maybe hopefully just in the short term. Definitely on the left, that's true though. But I think that's maybe what we're seeing. The proof is in the pudding that we're willing to put up with that short term. But then like, okay, enough's enough. Who's this guy who hates Kamala? Yeah.

Well, or doesn't hate Kamala perhaps, but, but is against whatever they're pushing. Yeah, that's, that's preferable please. Yeah. Yep. That's absolutely true, man. That's good. I don't know. So we'll see what happens with Hollywood. I think, I think, uh, I think there's still a big market for conservative films. Are you looking... What does your work look like right now? Are you trying to be in other movies?

Yeah, so I'm actually doing a movie coming up, a musical, a country musical. Why do people like musicals? I love musicals. Really? Are you kidding? Name one musical that was good. I really... Bulse.

I like The Greatest Showman. Yeah, okay. I thought that was good. I really- Bulse. I'm just kidding, what are you? I like The Greatest Showman. Yeah, okay. I thought that was great. All right, yeah. I like Les Miserables. Okay, I take it back. Les Miserables might be one of my favorite stories.

It's so beautiful. And the music's amazing. Except for this unfortunate Father Christmas bit, Santa Claus bit. Except for the unfortunate Russell Crowe bit. Yeah, bless him, bless him. You know? Okay, fair enough, those unfortunate Russell Crowe bit. Yeah, bless him. You know? Okay, fair enough, those are two good musicals.

Yeah. Obviously Wizard of Oz. Yeah, it's great. The wonderful Wizard of Oz. I think The Phantom of the Opera was great when I was a kid. I like We Will Rock You, the Queen musical. That's one of my favorites. Have you ever seen that?

Is that the one where Freddie Mercury was dealing with his parents? No, that was just La Boheme. It wasn't even a movie. We Will Rock You is a post-apocalyptic. Oh, wow. Like rock musical with all the music from Queen. It was pretty awesome.

Sounds good, I haven't seen it. Yeah, it was good. Yeah, I liked it. Yeah, so I'm proving you wrong. Yeah, you are. I think I have a bad taste in my mouth for musicals. Because one night when I was early in marriage, couple years in, my wife, we were living in Ireland,

she went back to America. And I went, I'm going to go watch a movie, or buy a movie. So I went to the store back when you would do that. And I got this movie with Johnny Travolta in it, but it was some chick flick thing. Hairspray? Yes. OK. It was the worst thing I've ever seen. Well, Johnny Travolta plays a woman in it. but it was some chick flick thing. Hairspray? Yes. Okay.

It was the worst thing I've ever seen. Well, Judge Wilson plays a woman in it, and Chris Watkins is wife. I clearly didn't look closely. Wasn't that funny? Back in the day, you'd go get a movie and you were committed. You couldn't just go,

I'm not watching this, Backspace. No, no, you had to watch it. So you watched hairspray. I watched about 10 minutes of hairspray. Yeah, and you know, so what is it? Hair you watched Hairspray. I watched about 10 minutes of Hairspray. Yeah, and you know, so what is it? Hairspray is a decent show. If you see it on, see the thing is about musicals, they're supposed to be in the theater.

Like you're supposed to watch them in the theater. You can't watch them in a movie, like unless it's like specifically intended for that, you know, the greatest showman's probably intended for the film. Yeah, I watched that at the theater. I watched Les Miserables in the latest one in England at the theater. Yeah, I was crying.

Yeah, see? Yeah. I know, me too. And that's where I started as an actor. So I started in musical theater. And so I was doing that professionally before I went into ministry and did that in a couple of movies. And then I felt called to ministry after that.

So yeah. couple of movies and I felt called to ministry after that. So yeah. So is that awkward working for Babylon B as a full-time employee, I presume? I don't know. I don't know, yeah. And then also being open to taking movie roles that would presumably take you away

for large chunks of time? Yeah, I mean, most of the stuff I do takes me away for like a week maybe. And so it's not really that long. So like a week, I'm doing the one I've come up, I'm doing like two weeks or something like that, but they're spread, they're spaced out. And so I don't know, it hasn't been a problem.

And as long as I have paid time off, like I can figure it out. And if it's not, then I'll just do unpaid time off because I'm getting paid like at the movie. So as long as they're okay with it. It's probably within their interest to have your profile. You'd think so. You'd think so. We'll leave it there.

All right. What else you want to talk about? Yeah, anything, man. I'm interested. We can go back to Catholic stuff, but I might have to pee. Is it okay if I pee? Yeah, let's take a break. All right. Come back. I always, I feel, I think an unnecessary obligation that we're recording to make my guest feel like this was worth their while. Oh.

And I was kind of afraid that you didn't get to communicate the things you wanted to. Are you kidding? No. A little bit. No, don't feel that way. I actually have, mostly I like just hanging out and talking to people.

I find people fascinating. And so especially like, you know, I like asking questions and, you know. So yeah, to me, it's okay. Like I'm not too worried. I wanna one day do an interview with Shapiro where the two of us just talk about what it was like growing up Catholic and Jewish.

I like that. I wanna, like, tell me about the Bar Mitzvah because you know, you see these things on Adam Sandler movies, I wanna know. I like that. I want to tell me about the bar mitzvah because you know you see these things with Adam Sandler movies I want to know that's right. I know I've touched on Jewish. I Dated a girl in high school that was Messianic Jewish Yeah, and they followed all the stuff like they were Jewish and then got converted to Messianic Judaism cool, and and so I got to kind of experience I Cool. And so I got to kind of experience,

I had to learn some of the songs and like learn Hebrew for the songs and it was kind of rad actually, it was very cool. All right, you ready? It's gonna be interesting. Yeah. I got questions for you. Please.

From our local supporters. I share with them who you were and what we'd be talking about. So here we go. That's so cool, man. Tim Paul, what's your favorite Monty Python sketch? Tim Poole? Not the Tim Poole.

Well, maybe he is the Tim Poole, the other guy is not the Tim Poole. I don't know. But he must know's your favorite Monty Python sketch? Tim Poole? Not the Tim Poole. Well, maybe he is the Tim Poole. The other guy is not the Tim Poole. I don't know. But he must know your favorite. It's interesting. I interviewed John Cleese. What?

Yeah, like last year. Two years. In person? A year and a half. In person. Oh my goodness. And I asked him that question. And so I have my own opinions.

But I think I'm going to defer to the expert because he told me that the fish dance is his favorite sketch. Do you remember this one? Uh, okay. So it's just essentially two guys slapping each other with fish. And then he said, it's just all about being silly. Nobody's silly anymore. I like that. And I was like, yeah, that's so true. And I was like, I don't even think we're very silly. Our style of humor isn't always silly.

I like that about Monty Python. I think Monty Python captured the absurd silliness that you can have when you have a culture like the British culture that is just so stuffy. Which is where it came out of. Which is why it may not land today for some people. Not that we're better at being silly, but that... No, silliness is probably more mainstream.

I think back then people were so stiff and upper lip and everybody was so proper and there was so much decorum and there were so many rules. So like when people were silly and they did a sketch about slapping each other with fish. I have to watch that now. It's so funny he's like that that encapsulates everything I was like oh what a what a royal honor. It was it was incredible yeah he lied to me and told me he'd heard of me he lied. He lied to me and told me he'd heard of me. He lied. One more time.

He lied. He lied. But he was amazing. He's such a great guy. How do you know he lied? Well, because he said, someone to be watched is what I've heard. And I was like, you're not telling the truth.

You've never heard of me. But we had cards. Kyle and I were interviewing together. We had all these cards and I'd written all these questions out. And we're ready. And we were terrified, both of us, terrified because John Cleese is like the king.

And so anyway, he's 95 years old and he's sitting across from us on a table and he reaches out like right when he said, all right, we're ready to go. Let's recording started. And then he just reaches out and he goes, grabbed our cards. And he's like, who's in charge now? Did that put you at ease or just make you go terrified?

It was just made me say, I was like, there was never any question. You always been in charge? Like, anyway, so I love Monty Python. Babylon B though. He had, yeah. So he had heard of the Babylon B. Yes, he was like, oh heard of the Babylon Bee though? He had, yeah. So he had heard of the Babylon Bee. Yes.

He was like, oh yes, the Babylon Bee. Yeah, he's so cool. He's so British. He's so British. I love that guy. This person says, hi, I would like to ask him why he jokes about blessed mother's virginity. All right, so we've touched on this.

What is, I haven't, I don't even know what this is. I know people are angry at you. Yeah. You're gonna be a perpetual what? Joseph. I know people are angry at you. Yeah. You're going to be a perpetual what? Joseph asks Mary on wedding night. Have you seen that meme? That's the meme. I'm opening it right now.

Does she post it? OK, so I'm looking at the thing. Recently unveiled. Well, I don't even know if I want to read it if it's blasphemous. But it's not blasphemous. That's the basic thing. Well, if you consider criticism of any criticism

of the doctrine of Mary blasphemous, then it is blasphemous. Well, I'd say it's close, but hang on. But why is it, why, what's the, is the point Joseph is being told for the first time that she's gonna be a virgin? So look at his face. I think in the meme, you can see his face.

If you guys bring it up, if it's okay for your audience, I don't wanna offend you guys, but he's just doing this face. Like he's going, uh. Okay, oh I see. And so. So someone put a meme on that. So you're gonna be a perpetual what?

So as every husband. Joseph is unaware and now she's informed. As every husband would be if they were told this after their wedding night. Yes, they'd be like, oh, really? That's what I'm in for? Yeah, that's interesting. Because in a way, it's understandable.

Because you think of Joseph, hey, like, you think of Mary explaining to Joseph that she was pregnant with Christ. And so he at first, so he's wrestling with this. Because I'm sure he, from one point of view, is aware that there's this one of the most, I would say, virtuous woman he's ever met in his life. And so for her to say that she's now pregnant, to accuse her of a, not a, well, to accuse her of whatever would be unthinkable,

but then also to wrestle with this. That just seems like something that would be interesting to think about. So this is like one step removed, which is interesting. And you made it. It's just a funny joke, honestly. I think it's just a very human thing that Joseph probably had a moment realizing that he wasn't going to be able

to sleep with his wife, which sucks. And so he's like, what am I into? What is this? This was not the life I planned on? Yeah, fair enough. He has a Catholic, I guess I don't find it funny, but I also don't think I'm outraged by it.

Okay. You got a lot of pushback for that. Oh yeah, dude, people are so mad. Well, what would be an analogous article that you think would justify the wrath of, say, Protestants? Yeah. I think we're such iconoclasts that I'm not really sure there's a whole lot, unless you went after Jesus, which

we wouldn't do. And I think- Because even this, I haven't read the article, but it's not you going after Mary. It's just like, yeah, Joseph at one point realized that she would be. Well, I think it's us also kind of playing, it's us if you were gonna take it to it's,

it's us playing with the idea of perpetual virginity because I don't think any of us believe that like at the Babylon beat either. And so it's- But for the record, Luther,, Wingly, and Calvin agree with Catholic. For the record, the reformers do. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, it's interesting, like a wider discussion, eh? Like it's interesting to be a part of a group that satirizes what's most sort of important to us, at least you used to back in the day. So think of things like praise and worship,

or the way pastors speak on stage, or I don't know what it is used to make in the day. So think of things like praise and worship or the way pastors speak on stage or I don't know what it is used to make fun of, but you're not making fun of particular things within scripture, I mean, this aside perhaps, but you're still kind of, you're still needling people where they feel a lot of reverence. Yeah, or we're needling people where they need to be needled in terms of,

and especially if you're bringing up like fog machines in a church service, like we're making fun of that. Yeah, or making fun of like the fact that every drummer at every church I've ever been to is in a full cage. You know, so we're doing like, yeah, our plan is to have cage-free drummers by 2025. Listen to this, Steve. Listen to this question.

Krista wants to know, can he say Christ is King? And the reason I know she's saying it like that is she also says, I'm anti the killing of women and children. Does that make me anti-Semitic, depending on which war? So she is, I think, accusing you of being a dirty, dirty Jew. Yeah. Yeah, she might be. Yeah, she might be accusing me of being a dirty Jew. I'm not a Jew, but I also know. But my question back to people that say that are, if you're defending Hamas, like then the killing of innocent women and children

is really what you are standing on. That's actually what you're really doing. So that's my thought when people come at me for supporting Israel in this conflict is that, yeah, I understand where you're coming from. Yes, people are dying, it's terrible. But terrorist organizations murdering innocent people at a music festival is not the same as war.

And I know that there's no justification for killing innocent women and children, but Hamas is using them as human shields. And so there's every warning. They're giving them all the warnings they can. They're telling them they're going to be attacking here, like, all that kind of stuff is true. It's also true that it doesn't sound like you're condemning people for being critical of certain ways that Israel has waged the war, right? To acknowledge Hamas as the aggressor is not to acknowledge Israel as the spotless white and shining... No, there's...

This is a problem. I mean, like, Israel is a state. It deserves to exist. And they were attacked on their soil, you know, and then they have to end this war and they can't keep Hamas in power. Like, so it's really, logically you can't allow this, their charter was to remove all the Jews from the Israel, I mean, from the river to the seed, basically to cleanse all of Israel of all Jews.

And so you can't have that as your next door neighbor, you know what I mean? Like, so they've got to figure out how to end this war. And I don't know what the solution is for that. But I also don't see it as, I think, morally equitable. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I don't really see it that way. So anyway, yeah.

And I think I can say Christ is king, and Christ is king. How dare you? Yeah. Can you say Jesus is Lord is my question to you. Is this the Protestant thing? Yeah, I would say Jesus is Lord is my question for you. Is this the Protestant thing? I would say Jesus is Lord is definitely like that means he's the Lord of your heart. Christ is King and you're using it as a nephew and I'm not. Yeah.

And again, to be fair, maybe I misinterpreted the way in which that was phrased. Maybe, I don't know. It sounded like it was pretty clear. MR Leonard says, what do you do if Catholic aliens land at the Vatican? He's written an excellent book called Pilgrims. It's a sci-fi book. I actually read it. It's really good, actually.

Is it? It's where aliens land at the Vatican and wanna see the Pope. Yeah. And they speak Latin. You're like, what the heck is happening? This is where this came from? Yeah, that's right. See?

What I had to say about... What do I do if Catholic aliens? I'll have to reconsider my eschatology for sure. I know exactly, says Mark, an acting expert, but I always felt like he was really good in all their skits. So props to him for that. Oh, thanks. Thanks, Mark.

Thanks, Mark. Thanks, Mark. Zachary wants to know, what's your favorite cut of beef? Depends, like what cut? Yeah. Yeah. I love to barbecue. Yeah.

And I think I really love to barbecue New York or ribeye. It's my favorite, but I'm the best at making tri-tip. OK. And so I'm good at tri-tip and I'm learning on the other ones. I have a mentor in meat that has trained me how to be better at this. And I keep getting better over time.

It's a process. American barbecue is the greatest thing. I mean, I came to it with, see in Australia, if you say barbecue, you just mean there's a grill out back, you heat up, throw some burgers, some bacon, some eggs on there. Yeah. Doing the Australian accent. There we are. But I came here, you know, gave you some barbecue, I'm like, all right. And it was just the greatest thing.

It's an amazing American original. Oh, Americans are so cool. I'm glad you think so. I mean, the automobile, which I actually don't appreciate. I think the world would be better without it. But the light bulb, actually, the world would be better without that. Some Italian broad from Chicago came up with a dishwasher.

Oh, yeah. Americans are cool. Yeah. Barbecue. All right, so this is why. Electricity. Yeah? You did that All right, so this is why- Electricity. Yeah. You did that one too?

Antibacterials. There's a lot of good things. The COVID shot. Well. So we- Sweets. Yeah, in partnership with some others. Red dye.

We, obesity. We can't- Oh man, talk about obesity. I was at Disneyland. Holy cow. Yesterday? It's apparent. Or Disney World. It man, talk about obesity. I was at Disneyland. Holy cow. Yesterday? It's apparent or Disney World. It's really sad.

Yeah. You can see why people are jealous about the Maha movement. Totally. Well, I was trying to tell my wife what it was like being at Disney World. And it was like, I don't want to be critical, but I mean, honestly, everybody there was overweight.

Everybody. Have you ever heard of the Great Wolf Lodge? No. Oh, yes. It's like an indoor water park. Yeah. And it's like, it'd be like if you went to Walmart and everyone took their clothes off.

It'd be like that. So we went there. That's what Disneyland felt like. And I looked at my wife and I said, I think this has cured me of the desire for sex forever. Yes. No, it was funny because, yeah, there's a lot of skin, a lot of tattoos, a lot of skin at Disney World, a lot of skin. But it was a lot of like very billowy skin.

It was a lot of billowy. But I do have to say that increasingly I'm of the opinion that we really have to show mercy to folks who've just been lied to about what is healthy. Yes. You know, there's a lot of regulations in Australia. So you don't have the sort of fat that you have in America. Right. But maybe you will if they become

loosey goosey with their restrictions. But I remember me. But yeah, I mean, you're raised getting fed this stuff. I mean, even in a hospital when my wife's been sick, the kind of crap they feed you in a hospital, when my wife's been sick, the kind of crap they feed you in a hospital. It's probably another subject, but I would say that, yeah, the health issue,

I don't know what I was gonna say. I think it left, it's gone. Okay. Yeah, but I- What about the three hour mark? You're allowed to have a brain fart at three hour mark. Yeah, I just had it, you know, it was just funny. I, no, what was it?

We were talking about- Oh, it was like Wally. I was gonna say it was like Wally. That's what it felt like. You ever see Wally? It was kind of like- Yeah, I just had it, you know, it was just funny. I know. What was it? We were talking about, Oh, it was like Wally. I was going to say it was like Wally. That's what it felt like. You ever see Wally? Yeah. Yeah. It was just like families drinking diet cokes. Yeah. And as a really, like I really am, I really think it's a horrible thing we've done. Yeah. I say we, I don't know if I've done it, but it's really horrible that we would even just call something diet that isn't, it's not healthy.

It's making you fat. Yeah. And then, you know, you meet people and they think they're trying to do their best, you know? So they'll eat the whole grain bread that's got a shelf life of eight months or something in America. It's amazing.

Yeah. Eight loaves of bread. We just said we have a new sketch coming out about this. So gotta go. Yeah. The food. Yeah. So I'm actually like really sympathetic to these poor folks who've just

been, oh, and I really hope that we can do better for people. Yeah. No, I think that it doesn't have to be, there's kids like, like the kids are like suffering the most. And it's really brutal. I mean, I shouldn't have been so flippant about, it's the poor who don't have options. So they don't have a, they don't have a car, they don't have a car, can't go to the grocery store. So they get to walk to the gas station and get their food. I feel really bad. You are a bastard.

I feel sufficiently censored. No, I wasn't trying to do that. No, I'm just kidding. I was kidding. No, you're right, though. But at Disney World, a lot of skin, a lot of building. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of a lot of tattoos and to just remind everybody that this is turning me off sex forever.

It's my line. So that's right. No danger. No danger there. Yeah. Any other good questions? What's your favorite B skit? Gosh, that's a great question. I love the Satan sketches. I also love the one woke Jesus sketch that we've done. We have six more of those coming. We have a Satan masterclass coming out. That's going to be a six part series. We've got, I love those sketches, but you know what? The one that

doesn't get any, the alien that comes out. Have you seen this one? Yes, back in the day, several years ago now. Well, the alien that discovers genders. So he goes and he meets with the government. Okay. Have you seen this one? I've probably not. Maybe you've seen the other one where he shows up at the barbecue.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Yeah, so that was the first one. I wasn't that alien. I'm the alien after that. And so like, that's the only one I haven't done. If we ever do an alien, it's me usually. But that one is so fun. He's just like, oh, who are these? What are these?

Pronouns I've heard about. That's back when that was a good joke. Once this interview ends, I wanna just watch all these with you. Okay. I can't wait. All right. Sounds good.

All right, Tim says, Babylon B articles are often formulaic. Consider an example. Why isn't this thing better? Ask person in charge of that thing. Here are some recent Babylon B articles with the formula. Gavin Newsom demands answers from whoever is in charge of California.

I will fix things if you vote me into office, says woman currently office, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. How do you balance formulaic articles that might be good for business without becoming comedically stale? That's a very insightful question. Insightful, critical. Yeah.

First of all, Tim, we need to stop employing your mom. I think that's the first one. I'm just kidding, Tim. I love you and Catholics. Oh, I like the Catholics. No, I do think, you know, like there's always, you know, a danger of becoming formulaic. It's good to know that people see the formula, you know,

like he can break it down and be like, oh, here's the formula. But you know, it's a joke. So jokes kind of build a certain way, you know, stories build can break it down and be like, oh, here's the formula. Um, but you know, it's a joke. So jokes kind of build a certain way, you know, stories build a certain way. So, you know, it's like you, you kind of like have an a, and then you have a subversion of a, and so that's it. Yeah. It's interesting.

I mean, this guy must be a dedicated Babylon B follower to see that pattern or just really autistic. I didn't want to say it, but that's what I was, autistic. That's what I was thinking. One of those things. I didn't want to say it, but honestly, that's what I was thinking. Yeah. But he actually is kind of agreeing with you in a sense because you were saying earlier that there is a way

to make money off this. And articles are the way to do it. You find what works, and you keep that one joke. So I mean, he's saying kind of what you're saying. Yeah. I would say so. And so to interpret that more incharitable, he's like, OK, so you know what works.

And I guess this is kind of just true of any artist. Like you find something, or anybody at all, like YouTube, you know, I do these videos, I know this video will do really well. Yeah. And then we've all encountered people who just keep doing that thing. Yeah.

Dave Rubin does this thing where his titles are always like, someone goes silent when asked about, and I noticed that goes silent was on like a- You won't believe what happened next. Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, I'm sure I do the same thing. And in a way it's a compliment, because it's like, no, it's good business.

Like, you know what works and you're using the algorithm. Fair enough. But the same question can be asked to all of us, but like, what's your goal and what are you actually trying to accomplish? How does what you're doing not become just this stale formulaic thing? Yeah. Yeah.

No, I think you're right. I think it has to do with, yeah, just trying to, I think trying to keep it fresh, trying to tell a different joke, trying to do a different subversion all the time. Like, some things work, some things don't. And we tend to kind of lean towards the things that work. And you're right. it is good for business.

Gotta keep the doors open. So that's kind of what we're trying to do. We're trying to kind of blend everything together. We have stuff that works, like we know is gonna work. And then we got stuff we take a risk on. And yeah, there's stuff like there's been sketches that I thought for sure were gonna work though, that were gonna like fly and they didn't.

Like we did one called Transnoir. That was my favorite that we ever, actually that's probably my favorite. I wrote that with Adam Yantzer and it was so fun. And it was basically like a hard nose detective named Steele Dossier. And this lady comes in and like they think it's, this dame walks in and he can't figure out

if it's a dame or not. So that's all the voiceovers and stuff in his head. Oh, I can't wait. It's so funny. I actually really like that one. That was my favorite. Anyway. Yeah.

Well, thanks, man. Thanks for coming on the show. Thank you. Thank you. And thank you for your listeners. Thanks for listening. And thank you for having me out, dude. This is such an honor to be here with you.

Yeah. What a fun time. I hope we can continue having our friendship because I feel like it's budding. Yeah. Well, whenever you want me to come down and be on the Babylon Bee, I won't do it probably. Why would I? Why would you ask? But yeah. I wish we still did our podcast consistently. We don't. Yeah. So, yeah, only do it on occasion. But I bet we would make an exception if you wanted to come out. I actually was on the Babylon Bee once,

the podcast back in the day. It was a virtual interview. Oh yeah, probably Ethan and Kyle. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like back in the day. Back when it was good. Sweet, thanks.