Pints With Aquinas - Pornography vs. Iconography w/ Jonathan Pageau

Episode Date: February 2, 2021

In this episode of Pints with Aquinas, I chat with Jonathan Pageau about how porn isn't art, it's an idol; and how icons aren't porn! We also talk about art, the covid lockdowns, and more.   SPONSORS EL Investments: https://www.elinvestments.net/pints  Hallow: http://hallow.app/mattfradd  STRIVE: https://www.strive21.com/ Catholic Chemistry: https://www.catholicchemistry.com/    GIVING Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/mattfradd This show (and all the plans we have in store) wouldn't be possible without you. I can't thank those of you who support me enough. Seriously! Thanks for essentially being a co-producer coproducer of the show.   LINKS Website: https://pintswithaquinas.com/ Merch: https://teespring.com/stores/matt-fradd FREE 21 Day Detox From Porn Course: https://www.strive21.com/   SOCIAL Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mattfradd Twitter: https://twitter.com/mattfradd Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mattfradd   MY BOOKS Does God Exist: https://www.amazon.com/Does-God-Exist-Socratic-Dialogue-ebook/dp/B081ZGYJW3/ref=sr_1_9?dchild=1&keywords=fradd&qid=1586377974&sr=8-9 Marian Consecration With Aquinas: https://www.amazon.com/Marian-Consecration-Aquinas-Growing-Closer-ebook/dp/B083XRQMTF/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=fradd&qid=1586379026&sr=8-4 The Porn Myth: https://www.ignatius.com/The-Porn-Myth-P1985.aspx   CONTACT Book me to speak: https://www.mattfradd.com/speakerrequestform

G'day there, welcome to Pints with Aquinas. My name is Matt Fradd and I'm really excited to have Jonathan Pagiot on the episode today. Jonathan Pagiot is a professional artist, writer and public speaker. I've seen him give lectures with Jordan Peterson and Brett Weinstein and others. He gives workshops and conferences all around North America. He teaches carving, speaks on art, but mostly explores symbolic structures that underlie our experience of the world. Today, we're going to be talking about the difference between iconography and pornography. I've had this idea for a while that pornography is almost like the anti-icon, whereas the icon reveals, pornography conceals the mystery of the person. That's what we'll talk about, and I'm sure that Jonathan will have a lot of interesting things to share.

Before we do that, though, I want to tell you guys about Hello, which is a fantastic app that can help you pray. So if you've been wanting to pray, meditate more. It's the new year and all that. This will help you do that. Hello.com slash Matt Fradd. It is the number one Catholic app in North America. Number one downloaded app. Tons of five-star reviews, very sophisticated, 100% Catholic. It has sleep stories. It'll lead you through Lectio Divinas, if you know what that is. You can do examinations of conscience at night. It's really well done. Now, they have a free version of their app, so you can just go download it right now and get a bunch of free stuff and you'll see how well produced it is. But they also have a whole lot of other content that

you can only get access to by subscribing. But if you want to get three months for free and get access to everything on their app, click the link in the description below, hello.com slash Matt Fradd. Use that as a promo code, Matt Fradd, and then you'll get everything on the app for free for three months. If you don't like it, you can just cancel. You won't be charged a cent. I have it. My wife has used it. We really like it, and I think you will too. Hello.com slash Matt Fradd. Hello.com slash Matt Fradd. All right, here is my interview with Jonathan Pagiot. Thanks. Jonathan Pagiot.

Did I get that right? Yes, that's right. Good. That's cool. That's a cool way of saying it. Australians are really great at butchering names that should sound lovely like that, like Pagio or something. It's hard to say my name in English because we don't,

usually the Ajo is not an English pronunciation. Like the normal way would be to say Pajo or something like that. It's just not, it's a very French way of saying, a very French name. French is my first language, so. Okay. Yeah. That's awesome. Well, it's really not – it's a very French way of saying – a very French name. French is my first language, so. Okay. Yeah. That's awesome. Well, it's really lovely to meet you.

I don't know how we first connected. Somebody told me I should interview you, and then I looked you up, and I really enjoyed, you know, the things you had to say. And I go to an Eastern Catholic church, and so, you know, all that you were doing with icons I found super intriguing. So it's really nice to finally touch base. Yeah, same. I've had several people in my, let's say people following me or said, you know, you know, Matt Fradd, what he's doing. And so I looked into what you're doing. So I was happy that you connected with me. And I thought, I think you connected with me in March. And then with the pandemic and everything, things just kind of, we didn't, we didn't follow through. And then

recently someone said, again, you again, you need to contact him. And I think I remember an email by him. So I went in and I said, yeah, perfect. Let's do this. That's right. So, I mean, it's hard for me to kind of gauge reality at this point. I'm about to move to Steubenville, Ohio, but right now I'm in Georgia. And I don't know if I've just drunk the Kool-Aid or what,

but like any kind of lockdown, any kind of mandatory whatever just like really rubs me the wrong way. Meanwhile, my family in Australia had this six day lockdown. They weren't allowed to walk their dog. I don't see the reason. It really bothers me that I've seen a few things up in Canada where these police have broken into a person's house Gestapo style. And I find it super troubling. I just was interested what you thought. Yeah, it's very, I find it very troubling as well. We just have, they've started a new lockdown now, which is with an 8pm curfew. You know, you're not allowed

to walk with other people, not allowed to, I think they said if someone is living alone, one person is allowed to go visit them or something like that. How frigging generous. Yeah, exactly. It really pisses me off. Like, who the hell are these people to tell us this kind of stuff? And I think up in Canada, how old do I look? I'm cleaning my glasses.

I'm just old and curmudgeon-y. Everything pisses me off. It's not just Canada. You know, I've heard some friends up in Canada, and they say they're kind of encouraged to snitch on their neighbors if they have large gatherings. What a great way to destroy the sort of social fabric. Well, that's what it feels like. What it feels like is a difficulty – there's a kind of materialism which is seeped in where we think that the integrity of the body is the only thing that matters, you know, and so it's in line with a kind of insipid materialism that we live with.

And then there's a kind of objective sense where they feel like because we're talking about medical, therefore, there's no opinion to be had. There's no morality involved. It's just we're going to save lives and we're going to do anything we can for people to stop dying. And so they feel people just accept it. And also we've accepted the role of the state as this totalizing thing in our lives. It's something which has been seeping in, you know, after World War II. It just started to grow and grow and grow and grow. And now everybody has just accepted it. And we think that basically the state can tell us what to do. They basically

manage our identities. They manage, they're allowed to tell religious groups if they can meet or not. And, you know, and they all do it for our good. And so it's a very, it's a strange situation that we've kind of seeped into an authoritarian state, and people tell me it's for a good reason, and maybe. I don't know, but authoritarian states have always said it's for a good reason. You wouldn't install authoritarianism for a bad reason. It's always we're doing it for your good, right? We're doing it to help you. So, yeah, it's a frightening moment.

Yeah, yeah. It's a frightening moment. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, gosh, I just saw recently these Greek Orthodox Christians were meeting for Epiphany, regardless of the COVID laws, which I thought was just super badass. I was pumped about that. Yeah, there's just part of me. We've almost totally given them this control. We've allowed it.

It's times like this that make me look at my like conservative conspiracy theory friends. Tell me what you were saying again, because it's yeah. It definitely feels like there is some at least agreement among nations because they're all using the same words. They're all using the same language. You know, we've heard this build back better used by Biden and then Trudeau and then, you know, Boris in England. And so it's like everybody's using the same language. And so it's even though you don't necessarily need to think of a top down conspiracy, there's at least a strange agreement about what it is we're doing and the sacrifices we're willing to make in order to get there. And I think that's what no one talks about is that we have this goal and we think they talk as if we're willing to sacrifice everything to get to this goal.

And we don't want to talk about the cost in terms of everything else, mental health, society, the cohesion of groups, you know, even the abandonment of the elderly. Like we've completely, in Quebec, like the elderly have been completely abandoned and we do it for them. Like we're doing it for their good, but we're not allowed to visit them. They're not allowed to see anybody. I know some people whose uncles, parents are in an apartment and they haven't left for months and they're not allowed to even walk out on their balcony. And so it's insane. Did you see that Parler just got shut down because Amazon kicked them off their servers and app? Do you know what Parler is?

Yes, yes. No, that's the whole other thing that happened. It doesn't exist anymore. No, it doesn't exist. It's been nuked. This is ridiculous. Yep. I tell you.

There's a serious lockdown on information. And it fits together even if it's not, whether it's how you there's a there's a serious lockdown on information that and it all it fits together Even if it doesn't even if it's not Whether it's planned or not It fits together because as we're at home and we encounter the world only through the internet Then that becomes the frame for reality Yeah So if you're able to now control that frame

Then you have a control over what reality is and you can tell people what's happening and they have no way to know besides accessing reality through this. I get the argument when someone says these are private companies, they can do what they want. But as you say, when Twitter and Facebook and Instagram have become the town square, and then you say, and you are not allowed to come, and then say, you know, it does really feel like you're canceling free speech. And it does kind of feel like a breach of the First Amendment, even though I know technically it isn't.

But not only you're not allowed to come to the town square, but we're going to shut down any other town square that you try to open. And so it's not just that. I know. It's like, can we go meet over here and chat? No, that's banned too. This is insane. I'm just sort of waiting.

I was talking to my wife today and I'm like, okay, I just hit 100,000 subscribers on YouTube. I'm excited. Cancel it. Like, come at me. I just can't wait. So here we go. Maybe this will get me kicked off.

If you are a Catholic or an Orthodox out there, go find a priest who will flout the COVID rules to bring you Eucharist if this thing gets locked down. I've already found some priests. They're like, absolutely. He's like, we're going to print out MapQuest directions. We won't even have people use Google. We're going to meet in a parishioner's home and you'll receive Eucharist. Bring it. Well, it seems like, I mean, I think that that's the kind of thing that's been happening just privately, I would say. And I know that some churches are being stricter in terms of the guidelines, and some are being at least secretly

more permissive. And so it's hard because we're also called as Christians to obey the rule of the state. We try to not be—to rebel against the rule for no reason, of course. If the law is reasonable, we shouldn't obey it. It's a tough situation. It's a very difficult place that we are in right now. That's for sure. And it's hard to know what is the right thing. It is.

No, you're exactly right. I mean everyone with a bloody YouTube channel thinks they're an expert, exhibit A. And I know nothing. I know nothing except I just want to be left alone to worship God and be with my friends and family. So I'm fully admitting that I don't know what I'm talking about in many respects. And I know we're all listening to people who don't know what they're talking about either. And then just whoever feels the most appealing to us, I don't know. It's crazy. So I just want to take a quick moment to tell you about Ethos Logos Investments, because they're an amazing Catholic investment group that will help you invest with character.

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Securities offered through Securities America Inc., member FINRA, SIPC, Ethos Logos Investments, and Securities America are separate entities. Go check them out today. All right. I want to talk to you about icons. It's hard to talk about anything besides what's happening. And I totally understand that because the imagery has been so crazy. The imagery of the Capitol takeover was so mad.

It was one of the maddest things that i've seen the imagery of that shaman with like the horns you know walking through the capital with like face paint on feels like we're in a video game that's what it feels like yeah it was gross for sure how did how did canadians sort of respond to it i don't know i don't i know how i respond you don't get out so you haven't spoken to them exactly and i don't watch the news because i'm tired of the propaganda so it's hard to even know it's hard to get like i can't watch cbc because i want to wrench if i try to watch cbc here and and it's difficult to find alternative it's a little harder to find

the alternative media in canada than you know than in the us yeah and we'll see how long they're around for. But, but honestly though, like I was thinking this the other day, I was driving in my car and I was listening to some political talk show and I just thought, this is not good for me at this point. Like I could be listening to like Bulgarian Orthodox chant or soothing jazz or something, but not this. Like, I know I would be healthier if I just unplugged. That's not to say that we shouldn't kind of keep abreast of these issues and have an idea of what's going on. But at some point, it's like, how much politics can I take in? And we've all heard the stories of those, you know,

fathers and grandmothers who have been told by the doctor, you need to stop watching Fox News, you know, whatever. So, I mean, this kind of comes to the point about talking about iconography and religious things, like for you as an artist, not wanting to go insane. I mean, what kind of suggestions do you have for Christians like me and others? Yeah, well, it's the same. I think that I have to apply my rules to myself. One of the things I've been doing now, you know, for a little while is I make sure that when I get up in the morning, I pray before I do anything else. Like before I pick up my phone and before I look at my notifications, any of that, I try to pray before that.

Can I ask you what you pray? I just pray the morning prayers, the Orthodox morning prayers. And then I, I, I try to do a little bit of the Jesus prayer, you know, which is these days is not super successful because we're so, we're so like our minds are so taken up that it, you know, I find myself wandering in my thoughts while I'm doing the Jesus prayer. So hopefully that will get better. But I agree. I've had the same since Christmas. I've kind of decided to, to break away a little bit and not listen to too many political podcasts, not be too – and try to get the bare minimum to at least know what's happening but not get involved in the commentary and the infighting. media world that is being affected itself because i mean i'm think it's the same for you in a way this is my part of my job you know it's like a when the youtube videos start to get uh shadow banned and there starts to be warning on your youtube videos then that's affecting me so i need

to i it's harder to to uh to stay neutral and to to to break off from that so at least you have a respectable skill like art and carving i just yell about things I don't understand. Yeah, luckily I can fall back on carving. I'm screwed. Yes, that is true. And I try, like I've been trying to also do that. I've been doing better, like get up in the morning, pray, go carve for like three hours. And then after that, get into emails and stuff.

That way I'm not as frantic as I am when I start right away on the emails and the social media stuff. You're such a talented guy because I've been looking at your – I'm going to pull it up right now and I'm going to show people some of your carvings. It's absolutely incredible. Did you ever kind of, as they say, write icons or has it been carving? Is that considered writing? I don't understand. icons or is it just has it been carving is that considered writing i don't understand well i i kind of joke because the word to write in uh in greek is actually uh it means to incise and so i think that i win when i say i carve icons that i you know that i just carve them

but the writing icon things is complex i don't like to use that term but i just carve i carve i carve icons uh it's kind of a marginal art, let's say, in the Orthodox tradition, but it is legitimate, and there are icon carvings, you know, from the beginning all the way until recently. It's being revived kind of like icon painting was revived in the mid-20th century, and so I think that right now icon carving is also being revived by a few people, myself included, and then a few carvers all over the world. Yeah, I'm showing folks right now what it looks like.

It's amazing. I mean, when did you get into this? Well, I grew up Baptist, Protestant, and then when I was in college, I studied painting. But I was really struggling to join my theology, which I wanted to take seriously, and the art making. It felt like it just didn't jive together. So all my art in college was about image making and the problem of image making as a Protestant and in the Western tradition. And so it just became like this weird self-referential thing, which is great for postmodern art, but it's not good for your spiritual health. And so that's one of the things that kind of pushed me towards becoming Orthodox, is

as I discovered at first medieval art and fell in love with the, let's say, internal language of the church, that the church had developed this beautiful, sacred visual language that you could find all over Christendom, you know, from Syria to Spain, basically. And so I discovered this, and at first I was kind of sad because I thought it was gone and that it wasn't accessible anymore. But then when I discovered iconography and how it was still alive in the Orthodox Church, it was one of the things that led me to convert. And so I wanted to paint icons, which is what most people want to do. But at that time, it was was in 2001 2002 um icon painters were very difficult to

access it was hard to find someone to teach you and uh just just happenstance my parents cut down a tree in their yard and they said you want to you want to have a go at this and i thought i'm going to make a blessing cross and so that was it and that was the catechumen at the time and then that's kind of what started it all i see i'm showing people right now these kind of crucifix medallions that you've put together as well that's amazing what's that made out of it looks like stone so a lot of yeah one of the things that i'm carving is uh steatite so it's kind of a kind of soapstone okay um it's an old tradition from the old byzantine tradition which kind of went away when Constantinople fell. But I'm trying to revive that because we don't really have access

to carving ivory so much anymore. It's very difficult. And so the steatite or the stone is a way to kind of regain a certain look of ivory and miniature and stuff. And so it's the thing I really like to carve the most, actually. I'm looking at this Seat of Wisdom statue

of our Blessed Mother and our Lord. That is beautiful. Those were someone, a few Catholic patrons have asked me to make statues, and statuary isn't usual in the Orthodox tradition. It's hard to fully know exactly why. It has something to do with iconoclasm, and it's not sure exactly why statuary didn't develop so much in the in the east but um so when i i've had some catholic patrons asking me to to make statues and i i said i'll do it if you accept that i try to kind of integrate it's kind of eastern iconographic language in the statue and so it was a interesting little game to play between the statue and this the, let's say, kind of medieval, but at the same time looking more Eastern.

I actually prefer it a lot more. And I've been thinking about why that is the case. I've been going to a Byzantine church now for about six years. And I think it's – I don't know what it is, but here's how I explain it. here's how I explain it. If somebody took a photo of a beautiful woman, say, dressed up like the Theotokos, I wouldn't want to use that while praying.

And I think a lot of people would agree. Like, well, yeah, no. Like, you don't want someone who looks like Jenny down the road. And statues kind of have that. I mean, I know icons can look tacky if they're not well done. I think statues have a better likelihood of looking tacky, but I actually really like this of the Theotokos.

Yeah, it is a really beautiful blend between East and West, I guess. And they look a little bit, I tried to make them look a little bit like the Seat of Wisdom statuary that was popular in the 11th, 12th century in the West as well. Trying to recapture the strength of the medieval Christian art in a way that is surprising at the same time. Golly, this is outstanding. I'm just clicking around and showing people what they look like, this one of our blessed Lord. What does that mean in Greek? I think it's Greek,

Pantokrator? Is that therator? It means the ruler of all, the Lord of all. Okay. It's usually, it's the image that you find in the dome of the church, for example. So it's like Christ coming back at the last judgment. Gosh, that's beautiful. So as you had this sort of conversion, if you want, to the Orthodox Church, did you find, I mean, were you a serious Baptist as a child? Yes, I would say so. I was very involved in the youth groups and, you know, I was kind of artistic. And so in my young adulthood, I wrote a lot of plays that were performed and kind of toured around Quebec, you know, kind of these big evangelical type plays.

So I was quite involved, but it was really at least starting in my early 20s, I would say, it became like a crisis, really, like a major crisis in terms of the depth of the understanding, but also the problem of art. And so that's really, it was really kind of my desire to find coherence that led me to the Orthodox Church. And reading the church fathers, especially St. Gregory of Nyssa and ultimately St. Maximus the Confessor, just like, that was it. Like I found really the power of the Christian worldview, you would say.

I felt like I discovered, I felt like I'd grown up in a world where scientism was the worldview and Christianity was like this weird arbitrary revelation on top of it. Whereas in discovering the church fathers, I discovered that there's actually the shape of the world is Christian. And the scripture actually describes how the world is, like how it appears to us. And so I really fell in love with that. That's beautiful.

What's it been like? I know you've given some lectures on the same platform as people like Brett Weinstein and Jordan Peterson. What's it like kind of discussing the faith with people who may or may not have a sort of more of a secular mindset? So they can appreciate Christianity for what it's given us, but they hold to a form of religion while denying its power. How's that been for you? but they hold to a form of religion while denying its power. Yeah. How's that been for you? Well, it's really been a surprise, to be honest, because before I met Jordan Peterson, I was mostly talking inside, right?

So I was talking about Christian symbolism to Orthodox, describing symbolism and icons and all this stuff. So for years I ran, I was editing a journal called The Orthodox Art Journal with other people. And so when Jordan kind of threw me out there, he just kind of threw me out into the public, I encountered this secular crowd. And I tried to find ways to talk about these things in a way that would be understandable to secular people. And I mean, I've been really surprised to see that, you know There are a lot of people that are staying on the secular side, but I've seen thousands of people convert to Christianity

you know because they're at the end of the nihilism they're at the end of the of the You know of this kind of weird post modern post modern world that has been given to them and they're at the end of Scientism as well. And so they I've seen a lot of people finally understand, at least understand, because one of the problems we've had is that people don't know what Christianity is talking about. You know, a lot of times they think it's just a kind of, either it's a kind of moralism

or it's a kind of arbitrary thing that if you don't believe this, you go to hell, you know, that kind of nonsense. But when people start discovering that it's actually discussing about this talking about the structure of reality and it's it's discussing how reality exists and how you need to engage with reality uh then then they they're surprised and they're excited that you know that this is still available to them i think that's why jordan Jordan Peterson has been something of a gateway drug into Christianity for many people who have abandoned the faith as kids.

He kind of helped it become intelligible to them in a way that they hadn't seen before. They didn't realize it was that sophisticated. They just, I don't know, maybe thought it had something to do with people who denied evolution or something. Well, that's, I mean, it's also because of the, it was kind of like the new atheist moment which took over in the popular culture, you know, and it, I don't know if it really took over in the high intellectual spheres, but it definitely took over popular culture. And so you could have a barely, you know, a somewhat intelligent, not super smart person who had all the arguments laid out of how, how stupid religion is and how all these contradictions in scripture, all this kind of stuff and how it doesn't fit with science but then it's also because they were facing a bunch of people who are trying to read science into Genesis

1 yeah which is which is though so then these two things that face each other create this weird monstrous cultural moment where we think that that's what Christians believe and then there are actually some Christians who do think that yeah yeah so they've never encountered traditional Christianity where we think that that's what Christians believe, and then there are actually some Christians who do think that. Yeah, yeah. And so they've never encountered traditional Christianity before, these people. Yeah, yeah. Like you meet a kind of debunker, and they talk about what most Christians believe,

and what they mean by most Christians isn't most Christians. No, I know. It's like fundamentalists. They mean it's like Bible Belt, like this very narrow strip of... And I find the most... I mean, I know there are a lot of very rational, fantastic atheists. I get it. But I think the most kind of angry ones tend to be people who kind of grew up in a fundamentalist home. They talk about how they grew up Christian and you're like, oh, that doesn't, the kind

of Christianity you're describing that you grew up with doesn't actually sound like something I would get on board with either. Yeah. And I mean, most, the biggest Christian group is Catholic in the world. It's not this fundamentalist group. And Catholicism and Orthodoxy... We have our own baggage, right? With the craziness going on, with all this talk of pedophilia and something the Pope

said about something that he may have been taking. I mean, so we have our own way of making Christianity as a whole look suspect. Yeah, for sure. I mean, but there's a difference between, let's say, the worldview and the doctrinal positions, which are something. And then there are the kind of hypocrisy that you find in any group, any world, and the kind of the traitors that we find within the hierarchical structure. And so I think that it's important to be able to differentiate that because- Totally. But it just gives people an easy way to dismiss you. Like if I wanted to dismiss you, and then I find out you have hypocrites in the ranks, easy, done. I take the moral high ground.

I look super great. I get to point to your immorality while you've been trying to tell me to be moral, you know. And it's also it's easy because because Catholicism is such a hierarchical structure, you can point to anybody. Let's say anybody who has any authority in the Catholic Church and say that's Catholic. And you can kind of incriminate the entire this entire one of the biggest institutions in the history of the world, probably the biggest. One of the biggest institutions in the history of the world, probably the biggest, and incriminate the entire institution because of the fact that in that massive billion people institution, there are some people who are using it to their own perverse advantage. Yeah, I've often said, you know, if you're looking for a perfect church, as soon as you join it, it won't be. Like, suppose you were to have found it. You join it.

Have you met you? You're disgusting. It'll be awful. You know, it's like, yeah, it won't be. Like suppose you were to have found it. You join it. Have you met you? You're disgusting. It'll be awful. You know, it's like, yeah, it's a lot easier, I guess, if you've got a small church down the road with 10 people to try to keep you all together. But when you've got a billion plus, you're going to find hypocrites for sure. So one of the things I've done in my work in the past is I've written on the topic of pornography. And I've just found it really interesting because it's definitely in my history. It's something I'm tempted to from time to time. It's something I hate,

but I see the appeal of it. I see how it's kind of dragging people into hell and into just a kind of boring, monotonous existence that they don't want to be in, but they feel they have no choice to be in. And I just wanted to chat with you about that because I've had this idea, which isn't terribly insightful, but I think it is accurate that pornography is like the anti-icon. So if the icon sort of kind of brings us into this larger reality, pornography does the opposite. It suppresses the personhood of the performer and sort of hollows her out or him out as it were, and leaves us with less than what's there. hollows her out or him out as it were and leaves us with less than what's there yeah for sure i think there's a there's a very good it's very interesting to differentiate let's say the the the idea of the icon and the pornographic image because the pornographic image is probably one of the closest places where we could find idolatry today in terms of understanding what ancient idols were actually were which is that

you create an image or you create a statue or an image and then that statue becomes a vehicle right it becomes a kind of vehicle for some demon like some spirit which which which and then your encounter with that spirit is is going to bring you something, right? And pornography plays exactly that role. Like, if you don't believe in incubi and succubi, like, you're an idiot because that's exactly what pornography is doing. You're not encountering the person, right? Like you said, they become hollowed out shells and they become vehicles for your passion and then ultimately vehicles for these you know let's say the way in which your passion that mode of being links together with others is through a kind of

principality which is driving this whole thing right because your passion isn't driving the industry of pornography but all the passions of people brought together and kind of as this strange entity is what's driving this thing. And so the pornographic image becomes a place where that manifests itself. And it leads to a form of ecstasy, just like an idol would. It can give you something, like it gives you some momentary power or some momentary ecstasy but then like you said because it is it is ultimately an idol and it's not connected to to God like an icon like an icon of like when you meet a saint or you meet a holy person that person is actually Revealing Christ to you, you know in the opposite way then pornography is breaking you away from what the true purpose of sexuality is, what the true purpose of love and relationship is. And so it really is, like you said, a kind of anti-icon. Yeah. I mean, if we think of like an icon as – how would you define icon just as something that points to something else?

It just means sacred image. The word icon just means image. But it's usually shorthand for holy icon, which is the idea of a sacred image. Like the word icon just means image, but it's usually shorthand for holy icon, which is that you have a sacred image. And a sacred image, what it does is it reminds us, first of all, that God gave us, renewed the image that he had placed in us, like renewed the image of himself that he had put in Adam.

He renewed it in Christ. And so the image of Christ participates in the way that God reveals himself to us and then the images of the Saints they also remind us and they help us participate in the fact that we're all together in this this church we're all together in this body this cosmic body which is moving towards the eschaton. And so that's what icons do. So when you look at an icon of a saint, it's presencing the saint to you. But behind that, it's also presencing Christ to you, just like when you meet a person. Right. And that's kind of what I wanted to get to. I'm not sure if you've heard of Anthony Esalen

or not, but he's an excellent thinker. He has this quote of his. He says, we sense that the human body is a precious thing, worthy of our reverence. It is not a tool, not an object of consumption like a steak or a keg of beer, not an animate provider of pleasure. It is the outward expression of a profound mystery, that of another human being. and that's the evil of pornography right there it uh yeah we we it's almost like it does what death does in an analogous way it separates body and soul and says i just want this no you're exactly right it it really does it is a cleaving it's like a cleaving of the person. And especially because we already get a little bit of that just in the technological image itself.

Like it's a dangerous game we play with these screens. It's already a danger. But when when that let's say when that danger gets brought to the extreme through this kind of explicit sexual act and also the kind of raw. this kind of explicit sexual act and also the kind of raw, how can I say this? The, the nudity of shame, you could say, you know, where you, you have the permission to look at something which is meant to be secret and meant to be holy. Like it's, it's, it's a desacralization of something which is meant to be, to be holy. Uh, and so all of that brought together is exactly what you said. It turns the body into pure meat pure object of desire and and it's not even the body it's like an image it's like this de-incarnated image I gets like this it is it's almost like this

like I said it almost is like a like a subtle body and in the very traditional sense which manifests itself to you of these these kind of demonic demonic forces oh yeah well let me let me these kind of demonic forces. Oh, yeah. Well, let me just kind of unspool here a little bit about my opinion on the difference between pornography and naked art. And then I would love you as an artist to kind of help me kind of flesh this out a little bit, right? Because, you know, the word pornography entered the English language

in the mid-19th century. It comes from two Greek words, which means the writing or drawing of the prostitutes. And it's clear that the kind of creators, the producers of pornography mean for their product to interact with the consumer in the way that a prostitute would. So pornography is always meant to be a substitute for a prostitute. Now, I was just thinking, like, in this crazy lockdown time that we're in, if you were a prostitute and had to work online, what would that look like? Well, it would be pornography because I think one of the primary, maybe the only notable difference between pornography and prostitution is that there is a camera in the room. But with naked art, it's something altogether different.

You don't find people sort of being tempted to masturbate in the Sistine Chapel. You don't find them going to some beautiful art museum and finding that temptation. And yet you see the body and all of its beauty, the breasts and the genitals. And this is all lovely. And it seems like, though, you're being drawn into an interior world. There's something going on. There is a complexity and interiority to the person. I mean, I don't, I tend to be not on, I'm not on this, let's say, I don't mind the fact

that nudity exists in art, but it's definitely, to me, like when nudity started to reintegrate art, let's say, during the Renaissance and later. It seemed to me like it was a strange pagan move. Oh, really? Because if you read the early councils, when they accepted images in the church, and when you read how the church fathers talk about, one of the reasons why icons look the way they do is because Roman art was erotic. Roman art was extremely erotic. And so what the Christians did is they took the Roman forms, and they, if you look at the figures, they're using Roman tropes. Everything about iconography is based on Roman tropes. The, you know, the fold, the clothing, the poses, even the contrapposto, all of this comes from Roman

statuary and Roman painting. But it was de-eroticized. And so all the figures are covered, and then the contrapposto is adjusted slightly so that it's not as sensual. So all of it, there's like a, and you can read, I think it was even St. Basil, I'm not sure, don't quote me on that, but one of the fathers talked about how, you know, the images that are represented in the church have to be not to attract attention to your desires. Like they need to be, they need to have a sobriety to them so that you're not tempted by them. And so I do think that, because like in the Sistine Chapel, even the Sistine Chapel now has been restored, but it didn't take long for the nuns to paint things, vines over the genitals.

Which were removed by John Paul II, which I thought was – that's cool that we disagree on this because I think I disagree with you on that. I mean, whatever we might say of Christian tradition and the fathers and their opinions, I mean, the argument that one would make would be that the body can be portrayed in a way that is decent and good or not. And so would your argument be that you actually can't portray the body through drawing or painting in a way that... I think that the best way that I would understand that is mostly that the body or the naked body has two aspects to it. There are two naked nakednesses you could say and those those were related to the story in genesis like one is the nudity in the garden and it's the nudity in uh the secret place where you're you're in communion with god and then that when at the fall that nudity gets turned into the nudity of shame and in the outside of the garden then you cover yourself and so i think

that that duality remains the same and so i think there is of course like you said absolute dignity and beauty and power to the human body but there's something of the altar in that in that that power there's something of the sacredness of the body which needs to be preserved and hidden for the moment of the bride and the groom, like for the encounter of the bride and the groom in the hidden chamber. So that's kind of more the way that I understand it. So your idea would be that since the time of the fall, it is no longer appropriate to depict the body naked. Well, I would say that it's hard to depict it naked without the shame. And so that's why Christ was represented not fully naked on the cross, but let's say as naked as possible.

And it was somewhat scandalous even when Christ started to appear that way. On the cross, Christ was represented fully clothed until like the early, let's say, I don't even know what the first time that I think it was in the ninth century around the time of Charlemagne that Christ started to appear as naked on the cross or as almost naked and I think that it was meant to represent the nakedness of shame it was meant to the nakedness or a way in a way you could say joining the nakedness of shame with the nakedness in the garden in a very strange very surprising way the way christ unites opposites and extremes together

but but that was one of the only places where that where the kind of the body was shown was when christ was was dead on the cross and i would say that it's mostly that it has to do with the secret it has to do with a mystical reality which is still kept you could you could say something like i imagine that in paradise we'll all be naked right like in in the kingdom maybe or clothed in glory the way we won't be wearing nike we won't be wearing nike that's for sure or clothed in glory the way the the the fathers talk about the nakedness of the garden something like that what's your opinion on those beautiful breastfeeding madonna icons i don't know i think i think that they

i think that they start out okay and then they get more and more disturbing you know and by disturbing do you mean sensual like leading to to sexual? Definitely. I think that in the Baroque period, there's a kind of sensuality. Like you look at a Rubens painting and it's just all, it's very sensual. I mean, the bodies are- What's that called? Sorry, I want to look it up. A Rubens, so R-U-B-E-N. I shouldn't look it up, I guess.

Rubens, what would I type, painting? Yeah, Rubens painting. Yeah, okay. Yeah, no, I guess. Rubin's, what would I type? Painting? Yeah, Rubin's painting. Yeah, okay. Yeah, no, I see what you mean, how they become more sensual. Well, I don't want to put a pin in that. I do want to keep fleshing that out, but just kind of back up a little bit. You could talk about it from different angles, right? Like there's the one who produces the pornography. There is the one who quote unquote performs in the pornography. Then you have the consumer, right? And I suppose, in fact, I would say it is the case that one can look at pornography and not sin. Because, you know, we have these sort of police officers who have to say look at images of child pornography in order to identify victims and catch these people. Or you might have a mother, say, who accidentally stumbles upon what a child has been seeing and scrolls through to understand it. You know, I would say that this because of the intention of the viewer watching pornography, while it may always be harmful to some degree, one isn't always culpable

for it. And I suppose it's possible that someone could look, as you say, upon these Rubin paintings or even the icon of the breastfeeding Madonna and feel lust and have their lower passion stirred up. But I've always thought, I guess, that, you know, especially in regards to, say, the icon or even the Sistine Chapel, that the problem wasn't with the art. It wasn't with depicting the body, which is good. It's always been with the person, that there's a problem in the heart if I am to look upon something holy, like the breastfeeding Madonna icon, and feel lust. That's not a problem with the depictions. It's the problems with me.

No, I think you're right in an absolute sense. But I still nonetheless think that it's a dangerous... I think I see what you mean. Because at the very least, let's say one says you can depict the body in a responsible way, which I'm not, it sounds like you're leaning towards not necessarily after the garden, right? But even if that were the case, there's the temptation of like leading people into sin because there are people who are seriously perverted. And so maybe that's an argument for why you shouldn't just be having these naked images in churches. I mean, I am definitely a traditional iconographer, so I don't advocate for the naked people in churches. But if you look at, for example, the way that nakedness is portrayed, like I was trying as we were talking, I was trying to think of other scenes where the

saints are represented naked. And it does does happen and it's usually uh ascetics like ascetics are sometimes represented naked yeah mary of egypt yes and mary of egypt is is sometimes represented naked in a way where she's an almost a skeleton yeah like she's she's a barely she barely has any flesh on her and so there is a way in which the nakedness of the aesthetic is is also this weird place where scandal and glory come together. You can imagine when St. Francis of Assisi would disrobe or ask his Franciscans to disrobe in public. not to entice their entice other people's sexual desire but it was rather for the person to kind of descend into that shame of nakedness in a way that would liberate them from the liberate them from that shame in a way yeah i don't know if that particular story um oh that saint francis

would destroy i've heard stories of you know people that maybe francis rolling in the snow or these sorts of things to avoid temptation but is is it the case that Francis asked some of his brothers to actually strip naked? Yeah. Well, Francis himself did it. And so Francis, when Francis kind of, he started giving his father's money to build a church. And then they brought him from his father. So he said, from now on, our father who art in heaven. And so he took his, he disrobed then he gave his cloak to to his father

to the priest that was there and but then he also asked some of his brothers to do the same at some points and this probably doesn't mean undergarments right though i'm sure he's not like i don't know yeah i don't because if that were the case i mean far be it from me to criticize a saint but i'd be like that doesn't seem cool francis yeah but um i guess i can see see... Well, the holy fools are capable of engaging in this kind of scandalous behavior, but they take the consequences for it. But it's also, it is this weird moment, like I said, where this strange moment where the nakedness of Christ on the cross is both the nakedness of scandal and the return to the garden at the same time. So I just really want to understand your argument.

So forgive me for going back to this. So is your argument, and maybe you haven't fully thought this through, so I'm not pressing you on it or anything, but it seems to be like prior to the fall, one could look upon another body and see it in all of its glory and splendor and without wanting to use the body. But since the time of we've left the garden, that's no longer possible.

And so we shouldn't depict nudity in art. Well, I don't think we should depict it in a sensual manner, at least not, at least not in the church art, at least not. No, I agree.

But then, but I wouldn't consider like, I wouldn't consider the, the, the nudity in the Sistine Chapel to be sensual in any sense. I agree that those Rubin paintings were sensual from what I saw. So would you say, though, that you can depict nudity in a non-sensual way that would be appropriate? Or are you kind of skeptical of that?

I think that people have done it with Christ on the cross forever. And so, I mean, without necessarily showing Christ's genitalia, that Christ is basically... But I would be open to that. I would be open to a beautiful icon displaying Christ's genitalia. And I would, until this conversation, would have thought that would have been appropriate or could be appropriate. I don't know i think that i i i'm not sure i i get the sense that that one might be disclosing the disclosing the the the secret in a way that might not be appropriate in the public i would say something say it that way because he was crucified naked by all accounts right i think that's probably he probably was completely naked yeah yeah this is this is really fascinating.

Feel free to expand on this if I'm not giving you enough time to flesh out your thoughts. But that's what I think. I think that if you look at the story of art, you'll notice that from the Roman period to the Christian period, there was a transformation in the way that the body was represented. in the way that the body was represented. And you can see that there's a use of all the Roman tropes, but transformed into a more sober vision of the human person, which focuses on the face, especially this encounter with the person, right?

Because you encounter someone in their eyes, in their face, in their expression. And so you can see that that's where the art towards what the art went. And then during the Renaissance, which, I mean, this could be a big argument to have, but I think the Renaissance is a return to paganism, at least for a little moment. During the Renaissance, then there's this return to nakedness in art and also a return to a lot of the pagan subjects, right? You know, if you look at the way that that michelangelo represents god it's basically zeus right i mean who is this figure like who is this bearded guy like who i'm not sure who who is this bearded guy that's touching adam is it christ like who is it is it god it's called the father father it's the father right yeah so until then like until the 14th century god the father was never represented

in art interesting you know it's so like very very freak events but it's like during all the middle ages the father was never represented because you don't represent god well that's interesting you know what's interesting is um i heard dr william lang craig who i'm sure you're familiar with yeah he was asked a question about iconography. And I've got my standard responses to Protestants who tell me I'm not allowed to kind of depict things in heaven and earth. And it was interesting because he said that he gave one of the responses I've given, right? And he said, well, the second person of the Blessed Trinity in becoming man made an icon of himself. And so he can see an argument for that.

But he holds to what you just said, that you shouldn't be making an icon of himself and so he can see an argument for that but he he holds to what you just said that you shouldn't be making an icon of god the father but that's interesting because i'm in trouble if that is true right because i belong to a tradition which does often um depict god in that way yeah well less and less and even in the orthodox in the orthodox tradition if you look at in starting in the 15th, 16th century, there starts to be images of God the Father that are represented. At first, they kind of try to fudge it by representing, they call him the Ancient of Days. And so they show the Ancient of Days and then in the vision of Daniel where he gives his power to the Son of Man. And so they

represent Christ with white hair and then also Christ as a child on his lap. So they tried to fudge it. But then that figure of the Ancient of Days finally becomes God the Father. And they start representing God the Father in iconography. But now modern iconographers, there are, I know, almost no modern iconographer that represents God the Father.

I could probably not even count them on one hand. And what would you say the argument for that is? The argument is that we still respect the second commandment, in the sense we respect the notion that you cannot represent God but through Christ, because Christ is the image that God gave to us. And so we can see God in in christ but we cannot see god directly outside of the logos like you can't see god the father no like every theophany in the old testament is is the logos like you even have this idea for example that when when god says i am the one that is it's christ that's why in the halo of christ i uh orthodox people would often write the one that is, right? I heard it up there, yeah.

Yeah. So the one who is is basically saying, you know that vision that Moses had? That's what he saw. He saw Christ. He saw the divine logos. Huh. I'd have to think more about that. What about when Moses sees the back of God?

Are you saying that's Christ too? I mean, I would say— He hasn't become incarnate at this point, so why does it matter? Why do you have to say it's the Son? Well, because the Son is the principle of manifestation of the Trinity, right? The Son is that by which all things are made, but it's ultimately also that by which all things appear, right? All the qualities, all the names all come through the sun. And so all categories of existence are manifested through the sun.

What does that mean, all categories of existence? What does that mean? That means that everything that exists is revealed or manifested through the sun. Okay, I don't know what that means manifested because i'm thinking of john 1 where it says nothing came to be except through him that's right but what does that mean that's a good way that by him by by so god created the world through the divine logo so the the logos or the the word is the means by which God reveals himself into creation. Does that make sense? Yeah, I think so. Say it again.

So let's use secular terms. Remember that episode of The Office where Michael Scott says, explain this to me like I'm five? That's kind of what I'm saying. The unbounded infinite that is beyond all category totally beyond all name and all limit and all comprehension yep all comprehension manifests himself through a concentrating point a son like his that he engenders and that son now and i'm not in secular talk anymore i i said i'm going to stay in secular talk and then and then so then that's how so it's like this you can imagine the infinite and then through the logos and the world starts to manifest the category so the difference between

christianity and any other religion because that idea is there in a lot of other traditions but the difference is that we say that the logos is co-eternal with the father that we don't think that the divine logos is created we think that the divine logos is uncreated and therefore the world creation is called to participate in god because the way by which it's made is not lower than god it's not like a lower stage than god so when god speaks it's him and through his speech then all things appear so this idea for example like so christians could never have this idea that creation is bad could never have this idea that creation in itself is fallen because the means by which god creates is god including the naked including the naked body including the naked body in a hierarchy in a hierarchy of being yeah yeah no i wasn't i wasn't trying to be a smart

ass i was just saying like that's true right like Like I mean you do have like strands of Christians that You know speak of the body or speak of sex or speak of sexual desire in an anti body way Well for sure there is there is a strand of Gnosticism which is just always there in Christianity this idea that the world is Fallen in itself that like you said the body is evil in itself or that sexuality is evil in itself whereas the the traditional way of understanding and the right way of understanding is that that all things ultimately point to god if they're in their proper place it's just about things being in the right place yes yeah okay beautiful man all right thank you i have to i have to listen to my own podcast and think that through again. That was really cool.

I appreciate you. How do we get – we started with pornography and got to, like, talking about that. Well, that's a much – that's the way you want to go. You don't want to start from art and go to pornography. Hey, I've heard some people say that icons can be therapeutic – not just therapeutic, but kind of healing. They can kind of heal the wound that pornography has created. I don't know how I feel about that. Obviously, I think it's a beautiful thing to stare upon icons, but what would you say to that? Someone who says, you know, I was looking at pornography, it really messed me up. And so to help heal me of that, I just started sitting

before icons. I mean, I think it's possible. I would say, thank God, if that's the case, you know, I don't, I wouldn't see it as a formula like i would yeah no no no what i that's what i'm having trouble that's what i'm having trouble with because i it sounds really pious but i'm like i don't see how that could like just do this and then this will happen i think that's true i don't think there's any silver bullet at all you know no exactly it's like confession yeah and fight and pray and fall and get back and pray and confess and i mean what else like that's life you know that's just how it works yeah cool all right what else should we talk about i don't know

what do you want to talk about uh i mean tell me a little bit because i i know a little bit about you know who are you talking to like who are people that, who would you feel is your audience when you're talking to people? Who is, I guess I think that Catholicism is true and I want to help people understand the Catholic faith through a sort of Thomistic lens. I did my undergrad and master's in philosophy and a lot of it was Thomistic philosophy. I love Thomas Aquinas and very often on our show, we'll kind of like take a text from the Sumer or some other commentary of his and just sort of look at it. He's a very clear thinker. He writes almost syllogistically, you know. He steelmans, I'm not sure if you've heard of that term, have you?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, he steelmans his opponent's arguments and so it's just always interesting, you know. Like in the Sumer, he'll present arguments, I know you know interesting you know like in the suma he'll present arguments i know you know this but for those who don't he'll present arguments against the position he wants to make and then he'll make his position then respond to those arguments but then there are other works of his i have one over on my shelf it's called day marlo on evil where he'll present up to like 20 arguments against the position he wants to make and then respond to those and and not in a way that you feel like he's strawmanning the position.

I just find that really intellectually honest. And I know I'm sure I fail at it, but it's something I try to do as I consider opposing ideas. Yeah, I guess that's who I speak to. More and more we have Orthodox Christians who are viewing the channel. But I'd say probably a lot of Protestants and a lot of confused Catholics, right? Who are just, we're all going through, I'm sure this is true in the Orthodox churches too, right? We're all going through this turbulent time. It feels like there's this division, you know, not just in politics, but in religions, right? Where you've

got the people who are identifying as the traditionalists and then the soy boys, it's probably not what they identify as. But it feels like this is splitting apart every kind of group. And I think there's just a lot of kind of confusion and this desire to find something to anchor themselves to. And that is Jesus Christ and the scriptures and the patristics and the liturgy, you know. But, yeah. Yeah, I think that, I mean, I think it's wonderful because you're right, there is such a, I think there's such a chaos,

like we're definitely going through a period of intense chaos of strange upside down things, you know, happening and it's infecting the church and it's everywhere, you know, it's for sure, I would say in the Orthodox church, because it's so slow, it's not as prevalent. But it's coming, and you can see it coming. And you can see all the kind of the same type of conflict that you find, you know, in the Western Christianity are starting to kind of come into the Orthodox tradition. tradition. One question I had for you is, and I know you're a Baptist who became Orthodox, is sometimes I see a lot of vitriol online from Orthodox people towards Catholics. And I don't

know if it's like the kind of big brother syndrome where you just hate whatever's bigger than you. And it's kind of like why New Zealand hates Australia, but we're like, they're cute. They're fine. We love them. I don't know if there's that thing going on, but I suspect there's a lot of Protestant converts who may have had an anti-catholic sort of bias and brought that into orthodoxy i'm not saying there aren't things to critique yeah in catholicism and if you're orthodox you you you're right to kind of reject what you believe to be false you know i'm not saying that makes you anti-catholic or anything like that um but yeah i'm just wondering how that's changing the kind of landscape of orthodoxy in North America, or if you've noticed that.

I think, I mean, I think that the, let's say the hostility towards Catholicism that you find in Orthodoxy has a long story. And because like, and so because Orthodox are also very slow, slow moving, you know, it's like you talk to Orthodox people, like they're still living in the fourth century. Like to them, the arguments that were happening in the fourth century are still live right now yes and so because of that there really is this sense that the crusades happened not that long ago and you know and not just the crusades but then also the holy roman empire and the the you know the kind of taking over of uh certain orthodox lands in the modern time so all of that is is very prevalent in the way people thinking because eastern europe is that place where the two political aspects of the of christianity just kind of constantly were in battle and so you have countries that were orthodox before they became

catholic and then some that have this weird you know this and then there's the kind of like you said eastern catholics that are kind of in between but they're not on one side and not on the other. And so because of that, I think that's why you get the hostility. The world is falling apart, to be honest. So much is happening that, you know, I think we can recognize the differences we have, acknowledge the differences, but then also understand that on most fronts, we're on the same side. On most fronts of what's going on in the world, we're on the same side. And there's also a strange thing which is happening, which is that you start to notice, for example, that the, let's say the line, the battle lines or the cultural lines are going across different Christian groups. And so you end

up having people who are serious about their faith and take it seriously in their life and in the way they view the world and want to use their faith as a lens for how they perceive reality. And you see that across all different denominations. And then you have people in all the same denominations who desperately want to be accepted by the world, who desperately want to be progressive and to kind of change the way that Christians understand things in order to adapt to the modern world. And then you see those also all across the denominations. So sometimes you end up, sometimes I end up feeling more sympathy with a Catholic or a Baptist

or even a Pentecostal who takes Scripture seriously, who takes Christ seriously, than another Orthodox who just wants to be accepted by the UN or whatever, who just wants to be loved by the popular thinking. Yeah, that's interesting. And in Catholicism right now,

because we had this big reform of the liturgy after the Second Vatican Council, and now there's this desire to return to our tradition, which I'm all in favor of. And I wonder if there's an awkwardness in that. Tradition is meant to be this thing that's passed on that's almost second nature. It's kind of weird when you have to like grab and artificially impose upon yourself and your way of life a tradition that wasn't yours. And maybe that's just what we have to do

until it becomes second nature again. But I think that's one of the most things Catholics love about our Orthodox brothers and sisters is that they never had that same sort of change in the liturgy. You guys have your tradition, and that really feels stable. I mean, this has been the line I keep saying. Like in a time of chaos, you seek stability. If there's a storm outside, you go to wherever feels safest. And that can mean tradition in a healthy way, but I guess it could also mean a sort of kind of awkward, white-kn hold on um but it can be it can be its own idol of course at

the same time if you're not careful because you you know we always have to we always have to remember that christ both you know both uh would would criticize the pharisees for for not embodying the law properly but then he would also talk to Samaritans and, you know, and he would talk to heretics, you know, he didn't stop himself. If you understand that Samaritans were heretics at the time of Christ, then all of a sudden, a lot of, a lot of, you can understand the possibility of engaging with people that are, that you feel aren't right on every point of view, you know, anyway, so I view. Anyway, so I'm not a big fan of the hyper-traditionalists. I find that they kind of sometimes miss the essential,

but I'm also definitely not a fan of the super-progressive type. Yeah, I'm with you. I'm with you. I'm more sympathetic to the hyper-traditionalists because I feel like I can see what they're reaching for. Yeah. And yeah, man, it's crazy. traditionalists because i feel like i can see what they're reaching for yeah um and uh yeah man it's it's crazy hey are you aware of of these kind of western orthodox folks who celebrate

one of the western liturgies in but but who are orthodox yeah they they always struggle to find their place like they're they i think it's an interesting idea. I mean, it's probably like me. It's probably like me, right? Who's like adopting all of these Eastern traditions, who goes to divine liturgy. It's an awkward place to be in. I heard someone say it's like being the child of divorced parents. You just feel kind of out of sorts, out of place. I think most of the people who are Western Orthodox are kind of ex-anglicans who who kind of have a desire for anglo-catholicism uh can't have it in them to let's say convert to catholicism yeah and so and so they they end up becoming orthodox but wanting to keep their kind

of anglo you know anglo-catholic liturgy and there's also like a weird neo-celtic uh thing in there like a kind of idea of celtic spirituality and and so so what makes that weird because that sounded pejorative right because i i kind of feel like if anglicanism hadn't split from catholicism the catholicism you would have today would actually be less roman and more celtic in an appropriate sense not the way at least my understanding of the Western Orthodox is that they have a sense that let's say the Celtic church was colonized by Rome,

and that St. Augustine actually imposed the, St. Augustine of Canterbury kind of brought in the Latin and kind of imposed the Latin form and kind of marginalized the Celtic practices, and that they're trying to kind of brought in the latin and kind of imposed the latin form and kind of marginalized the celtic practices and that they're trying to kind of revive these these celtic uh practices at least that's my not everybody it's hard because it's such a it's a mess of people like it's it's

all people that are that that are kind of doing different things but that's the sense and i it's like i don't i'm not against it i just i I'm worrisome about things that are kind of archaeological in their approach where, you know, the traditions that are, the traditions that are gone, it's hard to revive them from the outside. Like you find these texts, you find these old texts that aren't even fully there, that are missing pages and they're missing things. And you try to reconstruct the liturgy of like like some fifth century celtic saint it's like i don't know man it's it's it's maybe maybe i'm not in i'm not there but i i think it's better like you said to have something which is handed down and which is which has continuity and what was tough with me and maybe tough of you is i didn't have anything handed down to me. Like even as a, even as a, as a Western Catholic, it was just sort of the, the,

the nonsense of this, you know, secular music being played in church. And, you know, I wasn't even taught how to pray the Holy Rosary. We didn't have incense in church. All of that was gotten rid of because the kids want to be entertained.

Anything. His father wasn't as funny as Seinfeld and the band wasn't as good as Metallica. So it just came across as lame. That, think that that but that's it's a good thing right now because i think that that's one of the things that's one of the aspects that is bringing people back to traditional yeah uh liturgical practice is that at some point you realize that it works for a while to try to carbon copy the world, but you run out of breath because you can never compete with the devil. You can't compete with the thing you're taking it from. And so it ends up always looking like a pale imitation.

Totally. And if liturgy is the work of the people, then we go to work. We go out of justice to give God his due to the degree we can not to sit back and be entertained here no totally totally and also because the forms that we have are so awesome like the the relationship between the architecture the liturgy the images it's like uh it's it's it's this this intertextual you know language of references that will blow your mind once you start to look at them more profoundly. And all of a sudden it's like – I always kind of joke with people that people who like Marvel Comics or Lord of the Rings and all this stuff where it's like all these characters that interrelate with each other and they have crossovers and everything. That's what liturgy is.

with each other and they have crossovers and everything like that's what liturgy is that's what the whole liturgical cycle is and the relationship between the architecture and the processions and all of this it's it's basically like a giant marvel comics universe but it's the one you can live in it's not it's not something you look at from the outside you can actually be inside this intertextual uh world of of relate of references and relationship and some parts of this icon appear in this icon, and then, you know, all of a sudden you listen to a hymn, and then it says something, and you realize why

Christ is represented this way on the cross, and there's something in the hymn which is connecting that and then to the story of Jonah, and then to Adam even, it's like it's just this amazing ride you can get on when you start to see all these references and how they connect to each other. Oh man, that's really beautiful. Hey, what's your opinion on theistic apologetics? Because from the short discussion we've had here, it sounds like, I don't know,

it doesn't sound like it plays a primary role in your Christian life. Maybe I'm wrong. No, not at all. Okay, so why is that? And what's your opinion of it generally? Not at all. Okay, so why is that? And what's your opinion of it generally? I don't have a problem with apologetics. I think I grew up Baptist, and I grew up having, at some point, you know, having to go knock on doors and tell people that Jesus loved them. And I always promised myself that I would never evangelize.

When I became Orthodox, I would just never evangelize. Is that why Orthodox don't evangelize? Maybe, because they're all Baptists who go knock on doors. But then when I started encountering atheists, and atheists started writing me and asking questions and everything, all of a sudden I realized that there may be another way to evangelize. And it's mostly just talk about how beautiful this is. And not try to explain it in a way of defending the positions and everything, but mostly try to, so the way that I talk about Christianity is always trying to show you how powerful this pattern is and how you can live inside it and how, you know,

you won't find a better story than the story of Jesus. There is no better story. Like the story of Jesus encompasses all strains of storytelling in its story. And I can show it to you. I can slowly point at different aspects of Jesus' story and show you how it brings in all these different elements that you like to watch in movies, but they're all there. They're all brought together in the story of Christ in a way that will blow your mind once you start to see it right. So that's mostly been my approach is just to try to surprise people with meaning, surprise them with beauty, rather than try to defend this or that moral position or this or that. Yeah, yeah. And I think even though I think there is absolutely a role for theistic apologetics because for a lot of people they're like –

It works for some people. There are. I mean, there are people who are like, I actually want to believe I'm not being stubborn. I'm not trying not to believe. Just show me how this is logical. But I think you're right. And for many people, they've been down that road so many times and can't kind of make themselves believe, which is interesting because, you know, Blaise Pascal has that answer to those who want to believe but don't know how. He's like, well, just act like a Christian. Like, take holy water and say your prayers and just do the things Christians do and see the coherence, you know, your life will adopt maybe. Maybe that's more in line with what you're saying. Well, there's something about, like, there's something about the experience of the liturgy,

for example. You know, if you do, if you go in with like this openness and you this desire to encounter it and or the encounter with an icon or the encounter with a very beautiful traditional church that that it goes beyond the argumentation, you know, and there's something about orthodoxy, which is just always traditionally been that, you know, when they, when St. Vladimir of Kiev converted to Orthodoxy, they always say that it's because, you know, they invited his mother to Hagia Sophia. And they said, here, come see what we're doing. And they brought her into the church and she went through this magnificent liturgy with huge choir and, you know, the sound reflecting in all these golden domes. and then she went back home and she said i was in heaven like i just came back from heaven so and so i think there's something that is something in the orthodox tradition which kind of is conducive to that it is it's more it's more incarnate right because if we stick to the kind of head arguments what you're saying to your

friend when you invite him to liturgy is like bring your entire being with you not just your intellect like in in experience it and see what happens yeah yeah and like one of the things i'm doing for example is helping people see the story of christ appear all over and also the inevitability because one of the things that people don't realize is just how christian they are without knowing it you know and there certain tropes, for example, in storytelling that are extremely popular right now or just inevitable right now that didn't exist before Christ. They just didn't. The image of the knight, for example, the image of the strong person who is willing to fight to defend the weak and to sacrifice himself for those who can't fight for themselves, that is a Christian story. There, none of that in the pagan world. Pagan heroes are all jerks.

They're all selfish, like boorish people who only care about their honor. Whereas the knight has that idea that you can fight for the weak. And so I was just reading Robin Hood lately. It's my like bed, bedside story. And it's, it's exactly that. And so you, and so you can't avoid it. reading Robin Hood lately. It's my like bedside story. And it's exactly that. And so you can't avoid it. Like the image or the image of the hero who gets knocked down and, you know, kind of stays down for a while and you feel he's going to lose and he's going to be beaten and then he gets back up at the end. It's such a cliche, but without the resurrection,

that story is not, it just wouldn't be part of our tropes. And so I try to point to people that say how much the story of Christ has imbued all our forms and that as we move away from Christianity, it even becomes more apparent because we start to notice now all of a sudden that every Marvel comic store, every Marvel movie is about Jesus, basically. And it's just little parts of Jesus' story that are appearing in those.

Well, I mean, I watched the first Thor, which I know is kind of based on mythology anyway, but a lot of them are in some way. And it's just so Christian. I mean, he comes to Earth, he dies and saves us and resurrects and then ascends. And he tells his bride he will be back for her. Not his bride, but his girlfriend, you know? Yeah, exactly. He's coming back for her.

Very on the nose. I think the first Thor movie was Ken's bra now, so he probably was doing it very, very much on purpose. But even like the whole arc, like if you look at the Avengers Endgame and all that stuff, at the end, like this, i'm going to spoil them i mean everybody's seen it by now so it's your fault if you haven't continue yeah exactly it's your fault so i i i keep telling people like when so when uh at the end iron man takes the gauntlet

right and then kills thanos using the gauntlet he's making a lord of the rings move he's taking the ring and he's using it to fight evil and so the question is what's the difference like what's the difference between why in the lord of the rings they can't do that like if they take the ring they're going to be corrupted by its power why is it that uh that iron man can take take the ring tony stark can take take the ring and use it to defeat evil without being corrupted. And the reason is that because he sacrificed himself. It's because he died doing it. And that's the only reason why he could do it is because he knew that he was going to die when he did that. And it's a Christian story. It just ends up being a Christian story where

he takes the power of death, uses it against death to save the world from death, but he has to die himself in order for it to be legitimate. In order for it not to be a form of satanic pride, he has to die. And it's like, what are you going to do? You can't avoid the story. It's just going to, it keeps coming back and back and back. Yeah. Trample death by death. That's beautiful. Yeah. Okay, cool. All right, well, hey, I've loved our chat. And thank you so kindly for coming on the show. And I hope we get to chat again. Maybe for those who are watching on my channel,

where can they learn more about you and the great stuff you're involved in? So, I mean, you can find my carvings on my carving website, Pejol Carvings. I'm also on YouTube on The Symbolic World where I talk about symbolism in all its forms. I have a website called thesymbolicworld.com as well, where we have a blog and different people talking about symbolism as it helps you understand the world

we live in. And so those are mostly the place where you can find- And then you also have a great Teespring account that I'm showing people right now. Did you come up with these designs did these your yes or well not all there's a few that there's one at least one or two that i asked someone i cared that this cosmic mountain one i'm gonna buy like a hundred of them as soon as soon as we're done that's a that's like the work of that's like the work of 20 years i would say so i've been thinking about this cosmic the idea of representing everything in one image for a very long time. And so finally last year, I had the guts to kind of put it together. It's beautiful. Tell us about it because it's on the screen for people to see right now.

It's based on, let's say, a kind of bringing together of the story of Genesis with the crucifixion of Christ, but also it joins all different elements of iconography together in one image. I have a video on my YouTube channel. People want to find out about what elements that I drag into this picture. But it's also a description of, let's say, the hymns on Paradise by St. Ephraim the Syrian and the ascent of Moses on the mountain in St. Gregory of Nyssa's Life of Moses. The Ascent of Moses on the Mountain in St. Gregory of Nyssa's Life of Moses. So all of the things that I love about Christianity basically brought into one image, this cosmic image.

It's really terrific. And so how did you do that? I mean, did you do that on the computer? Was it a carving that you? Oh, it's a drawing. It's a hand drawing, yeah. Oh, my goodness. Dude, you're a very talented man, and I'm glad you're doing what you're doing.

Thanks for having me. It was a lot of fun. I enjoyed it. Good stuff. Thanks. Thank you very much for watching. Before you go, I want to invite you to consider supporting us on patreon.com slash Matt Fradd. When you do, you get a bunch of free things in return, like books sent to your door, stickers sent to your door, free beer steins. You get access to these online courses that we've done on St. Augustine's Confessions or Dante's Divine

Comedy or the Bible or the great books of Western civilization. You just get to join an awesome community of Catholics and non-Catholics. We have Catholics and non-Catholics over on my Patreon account who love to engage in thoughtful and interesting discussions. So please consider it patreon.com slash Matt Fradd, patreon.com slash Matt Fradd. And when you do, as I say, you'll get a bunch of free things in return. I really appreciate it. Thank you.