Pints With Aquinas - Protestant Pastor Quits to Become Catholic w/ Shane Page

Episode Date: September 21, 2021

Pull up a barstool with me and Shane Page, a former United Methodist pastor, as he tells us the story of his conversion to Catholicism! You don’t want to miss a moment of his fascinating journey, including: - How working at Chili’s led to a “born again” experience. - The process of becoming a Methodist pastor. (It took 14 years!) - Two things that happened in seminary that started his path to Catholicism. - Doing a Marian consecration as a Protestant. - The hardest part about finally stepping down as a pastor.   Sign up for my free course on St. Augustine's "Confessions"!   SPONSORS Hallow: http://hallow.app/mattfradd STRIVE: https://www.strive21.com/ Ethos Logos: https://www.elinvestments.net/pints   GIVING Patreon or Directly: https://pintswithaquinas.com/support/  This show (and all the plans we have in store) wouldn't be possible without you. I can't thank those of you who support me enough. Seriously! Thanks for essentially being a co-producer co-producer of the show.   LINKS Merch: https://teespring.com/stores/matt-fradd FREE 21 Day Detox From Porn Course: https://www.strive21.com/   SOCIAL Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mattfradd Twitter: https://twitter.com/mattfradd Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mattfradd Gab: https://gab.com/mattfradd Rumble: https://rumble.com/c/pintswithaquinas   MY BOOKS Get my NEW book "How To Be Happy: Saint Thomas' Secret To A Good Life," out now! Does God Exist: https://www.amazon.com/Does-God-Exist-Socratic-Dialogue-ebook/dp/B081ZGYJW3/ref=sr_1_9?dchild=1&keywords=fradd&qid=1586377974&sr=8-9 Marian Consecration With Aquinas: https://www.amazon.com/Marian-Consecration-Aquinas-Growing-Closer-ebook/dp/B083XRQMTF/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=fradd&qid=1586379026&sr=8-4 The Porn Myth: https://www.ignatius.com/The-Porn-Myth-P1985.aspx   CONTACT Book me to speak: https://www.mattfradd.com/speakerrequestform

Shane Page, great to have you in the studio. It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you for inviting me. Yeah. So for those who are watching, sum up what just happened over the past year, maybe in a minute before we delve deeper into it. Well, what's happened over just the last year is that I was a United Methodist elder, a pastor of a congregation, and after a long period of time and discernment, I made the leap to become Catholic. So that's what happened within the last year. I was raised in a United Methodist family in Gastonia, North Carolina, shout out to G-town.

And I attended a United Methodist Church. I was a nominally Christian young person, became a dissipated youth, but I did have what we would call in the Protestant world at the time, a born again experience, which led me to discern a call to ministry within the United Methodist Church. And that's what I did for 18 years. And I have been a Catholic in full communion for about two or three months. Two or three months. Because you and I were going to do a sort of Skype interview a few months back. I'm glad we didn't. It's always nice to be able to sit across a table and chat in person. Yeah, okay, wow. All right, where do we begin? So Methodist pastor, North Carolina, you said it was a relatively big church for a Methodist congregation. Well, my last, in the United Methodist Church, there is an appointment system, and we have

a bishop, and the bishop appoints the clergy to the churches assigns them and my last appointment was Davidson United Methodist Church I was a senior pastor there a congregation of about between 2500 to 3200 wow that's I was suspect yes yeah yes yeah okay um at what so what was your opinion of Catholics as you came into the ministry as a pastor? I had no opinion of Catholics. In the South, where I'm from, there was one Catholic parish. I thought you were going to say one Catholic. One Catholic.

But multitudes of Protestant churches that just dotted the landscape there. And as a United Methodist, the thought never even occurred to me that I would one day become Catholic. The word Catholic was not even used in my family. And the only stories I ever heard of Catholics were, I guess, pre-Vatican II days when my grandmother would say, well, I remember there was a neighbor of ours and we couldn't even go into our house because we were Protestant. And so I was like, well, I remember there was a neighbor of ours and we couldn't even go into our house because we were Protestant. And so I was like, oh, wow, who are these Catholic people? Yes. So even when I became what I would say a fervent Christian in September, gosh, it's almost been that long now, September of 1996, I was a cook at Chili's Grill and Bar for nine years. A friend of mine who's, we've since become distanced, but there was another cook there named Sean. My name is Shane. He was Sean.

And he was a Pentecostal and he loved his faith. He loved the Lord. I was always curious as a child. So I was the young child who, even though I would not say I had any kind of formation, you know, deep formation in Christianity, I was, as a young child, I can remember being very curious about God, about heaven. What is that? What does it mean? I would take my family's Bible, it's this huge Bible, and I would, and it had all these Renaissance images of the Lord and I would just pour over it. From time to time, I would even read the gospels and I was doing that at least eight years

old. So Sean, what he ended up doing is that he rekindled that curiosity. So even when I was a Methodist pastor, I would say, never underestimate your witness to someone else. So when you were a cook at Chili's, were you a practicing Christian? No, I was not a practicing Christian. I would say I believed in God. I mean, I was pretty much, what is it called? The moral therapeutic deist. But I would not consider myself necessarily a Christian in practice at all. But what Sean was able to do, and I don't even think he knows that, and if he's watching, I just need to thank him publicly for this, is that he kept inviting me

to his church. I'll go to a Pentecostal church. I would always say no. I never said yes to his invitation because I was afraid of Pentecostals. But then he said, hey, Billy Graham's coming to Charlotte. Won't you come with us? Okay. And so I accepted that invitation. Now, a week before the actual crusade was happening, and it was in Charlotte, I knew at that point that I needed to go ahead and make a decision whether I was going to be all in for Jesus or whether I was going to

just, you know, don't, as the Lord says, don't be cold, be either hot or cold, don't be lukewarm. And even days before the crusade even came to town, I thought, yeah, this is going to be the week for me. And that night I did do the altar call and came forward. And I can remember. He had such a gift, didn't he, Billy Graham? Yes. But I, in my case, it was already predetermined what I was going to do. Okay. I knew that I was going to go down to the to the ground and what ended up happening is that unbeknownst to me there were people there on site who were going to pray with me I didn't know that and so someone came to me and said what you're doing is is going to establish eternity and then he led me into a confession of sin interestingly enough

he says why don't you just let the Lord know right now what you've done because his mercy is there to forgive you. And I can remember bawling. I mean, just a copious tears in that moment. And my change was dramatic. It happened immediately. I was really no longer the same. And I don't want to belabor the point, but I can remember being in the car with Sean

and his family, looking out the window. And as I'm leaving the Erickson Stadium is what it was called at the time in Charlotte. I'm not going to be the same human being anymore. And I was not. It was a dramatic conversion, and I developed an insatiable thirst for scriptures. I needed to know everything about everything and poured over the Bible nightly. Had no idea what I was reading. And that continued for a couple of years.

And it was just dramatic. Maybe belabor the point a little bit okay talk about how your behavior changed how your interior life changed maybe how some of your relationships had to change it at the time I'm not sure yes I would say well I've got kids watching I did not make their greatest decisions growing up and as I've heard to say before I did not make their greatest decisions growing up. And as I've heard it say before, I did DUMB. I had a PhD in DUMB. That stopped.

All of that stopped. I had no desire for it anymore. So what I used to be was no longer even appealing. And, you know, there's a verse of Scripture, I think, in Romans where people think,, is it in Romans where people will think at odd that you are no longer rushing towards dissipation? Yes. I think Peter, one of Peter's epistles. Maybe it's one of his epistles. And so that changed. Did it affect my friendships? Yes, slowly, because my friends with whom I used to carouse, all of a sudden I'm this zealot. And I was a zealot.

And maybe at times I was a little overbearing. I was a new, you know. Me too. You know. I know the feeling. And those friendships did change. And I did lose some of those friendships. But some of those friendships became forged through Christ.

Because Sean, for instance, and there were a few others who after a period of time helped me discern what i thought was my call to ministry but of course ministry to me was within the methodist church so that's another thing that changed i started reattending the congregation of my family which was first united Methodist in Gastonia, and I would go alone. So at Chili's Grill and Bar, I would always work the night shifts on Saturday. I would get out at 2 or 3 a.m., but I would always show up for worship the next morning, you know, for five hours later, whatever it was. And I became involved in that church and then reached out to the the senior pastor of that congregation who by the way wrote me a note and i guess the billy graham crusade when i listed first church as

the church of my childhood i received a letter from him from through the billy graham crusade i heard about your conversion i'm praying for you and i reached out with him to him and we became friends and we're still friends to this day. Where was your mom and dad and perhaps siblings at this point? Well, my grandparents, so my maternal grandparents, my mother's mother and father, they were the ones who primarily raised me in the church. So I did come from the Southern family where if you were too sick to go to church, you're too sick to do anything. If you didn't go to church, it's over. And they were very faithful in that. That changed as I became about 13 or 14 years old. They didn't press that so much. I wish they would have in hindsight. My mother and father, well, I don't

really know who my father is. I was raised by a single mother. My mother and father divorced when I was about a year and a half, maybe two years old. My sister was four months at the time. And they lived in Rocky Mount, North Carolina. And I have no idea what happened. It's none of my business. And she relocated to her hometown, Gastonia. And so my grandparents helped raise me.

Gastonia. And so my grandparents helped raise me. And I believe my grandmother said that my grandfather said, without a father, this young man is going to need a father figure. And he did what he could to be that father figure for me. But he was a very hard man. He was a Merle's Marauder in World War II, had medals. I had no idea that he had these war medals until his death. He died in 1999, Silver Star, Purple heart, five bronze stars, expert rifleman. And I can remember asking my grandmother, why did he never display these medals? And she said, he did not believe you should be awarded for killing people. That's exactly what she said. But anyway, they were in his cupboard.

How did I get on that subject? Nevertheless, they did take me under my wings. So I would spend every weekend with my grandparents, and then I would live with them in the summer. And I think most of that was because of my grandfather and his nurturing of me and to raise me to be a responsible person. My mother didn't attend church regularly. person. My mother didn't attend church regularly. How did you live out your faith after this conversion? Did you and Sean continue to pray together, perhaps? Did he invite you to his Pentecostal church? Well, I was a Methodist. We don't really pray out loud. Methodists believe in the power of prayer, except when asked to call upon to pray publicly. That's Garrison Keller, I think it was.

How did it change? Well, I was voracious in the scriptures. So I did not, after I graduated from high school in 1992, I did not go immediately to college. I worked full time. So I was at Chili's earning a living. I was living with a couple of other guys, renting a home. And after two years, I think about a year after my conversion, I said, you know, I don't think I want to do flipping burgers and chicken for the rest of my life.

I think there's something more to that. And then I then applied to Gaston Community College. So the point being is that I spent every day pouring over the scriptures. Even after I would leave my classes at Gaston Community College, I would take my Bible out and I would read an epistle that day. I then started getting involved with a program at the church called Meals on Wheels. Have you heard of that? Yes. So I became a deliverer. And then that rocked my world because I saw a side of my hometown that I had never seen before that existed, but that was hidden in plain sight, which is poverty, isolation. I can still remember to this day delivering food to one particular home of a woman and the smell was abject. It was practically noxious and it ruined me for a few days. It was

actually some trauma. I mean, just abject poverty. So that's really how I lived out my faith. But because I was so zealous for Scripture, and I only knew really, I mean, United Methodist may be the wrong terminology. I was basically an evangelical. That's really what I was. United Methodist didn't mean anything to me. It just happened to be the tradition of my family. That's all.

But because I was such a zealot, there were other people who said, you know, have you ever thought that maybe you should do what your pastor does on Sundays? What did they see in you that they thought to ask that question? I think what they saw was energy. They saw a seriousness. I guess you could say I have an addictive personality. I'm either all in or I'm not. And I just jumped completely in to this Christian thing. And I think they saw me engaging with other people in what we would say is an evangelical way, Just asking, answering questions. Trying to get people to see what I'm seeing.

Because I was so in love with this Jesus that I had met. Who had changed my life. And I wanted other people to experience what I was experiencing. And God was the only thing I thought about. And John Wesley, who was the founder of the United Methodist movement, and it was a movement before it was a church, maybe we can get into that. You know, one of the questions that he would ask candidates for ministry is, do you think about God and only God? And I could seriously at that time say, yeah, that's all I think about.

So I think that had something to do with it. And I love my church and I love to be there as much as I could. It's been said that Protestantism doesn't exist. There are only Protestantisms, right? Okay. And different types of Protestants hold different views about salvation, the necessity of baptism, things like this. How did you wrestle with that? Were you aware of different beliefs within the body of Christ, as it were? No, no. So to that degree, I was pretty much outside the circle of what doctrine really is. You know, you're baptized, you believe in Christ. I mean, at the time of my early conversion, I would have not known anything about sacramentology or Christology. It's just that I knew that my life had changed. I wanted other people to be changed as a result.

It was my encounter with C.S. Lewis. I did read Mere Christianity, and I guess you could say that C.S. Lewis was the one who precipitated my desire to learn more because I never realized that Christianity had such an intellectual side to it. And by no means do I consider myself an intellectual, but I can remember reading Mere Christianity being so struck by the argument.

Yeah. And faith and reason coming together. And that just fed my thirst, which made me thirsty for more. And I just read every book that I could get my hands on. But no, I never really stepped outside of my own convictions and thought, well, let's compare and contrast what we believe as Methodist versus what maybe a Baptist or a Catholic would believe. So what was it like studying to be a Methodist pastor?

How long does that take? About 12 to 14 years. Holy smokes. Yes. I didn't realize that. So yeah, there was a whole process. 12 to 14 years. I mean, Jesuits take nine years before they're ordained, I think. I love't realize that. So, yeah, there was a whole process. 12 to 14 years. I mean, Jesuits take nine years before they're ordained, I think.

I love sharing the story. I didn't realize we were going to talk about it. So I remember going to the senior pastor of my hometown church. So I'm going to use the name Jody. Okay. Jody Seymour. A profound influence in my life to this day. And I can remember saying to him, he had never met me

before other than that note, but he was writing to a stranger after my Billy Graham crusade conversion. And I sat down with him and I said, I think God might be calling me to ministry. I don't really know what this is. And I just remember quoting scripture and, you know, just, I was the novice that thought he knew everything. And he asked me, he said, well, how long have you been involved in the church? I said, I don't know, maybe a year, maybe a year and a half. Did you go to Sunday school here? No. Youth group? No. Were you confirmed? I said, yeah, but I don't really remember anything. And he said, well, as far as you being called, probably not. And he says, but I'll tell you this, I will journey with you. And then we'll try to discern this together.

So he was actually supposed to be the gateway into what's called at the time candidacy. Is this person a candidate? Well, you need the write-off of the senior pastor. But let me just jump ahead very quickly. And he kept his word. And he did sit with me. He heard my story. A little bit more about my own family background. And then as I got involved in the parish and started getting to know more people, some of them were already confirming or affirming, maybe that's the right word, that I could be called to this ministry. I will never forget the day I sat down with him and he says, Shane, you are called. I believe you are called.

And I'm looking forward to the journey ahead. And then I became a candidate. And so you have to be a candidate for a certain number of years. You go before what's called a board and they have to ask you questions. It's a thorough process. Well, let me ask you this. I mean, it's such a podcaster thing to say. Let me ask you this. 13 or 14 years, do you all have problems with parishes that don't have pastors

because it takes so long to become one? Well, at the time of the early days of my ministry, no, I would not say that. I would say that now, yes. Yeah, okay. That's quite the commitment. We're in the Bible belt as well. Yeah. So there's a ranking in Methodism. You have elders, you have deacons, you have local pastors. I see. And it's very hard to really explain the difference between them, except an elder is guaranteed or is still guaranteed an appointment by the bishop. So you will have a church if you need a church. Local pastors are licensed to serve churches, but they don't necessarily have the same, I hate to use the word credentials, but it's not the same

credentials. They may not have a seminary degree and have passed the boards of ordained ministry. But it's a series of you have to, you are examined. And I think that's necessary. Because John Wesley, not to cut you off, John Wesley, who was the founder of the Methodist movement, really believed in educated clergy. Not any whippersnapper can just come in and do this. They need to be educated. So you were a pastor. Is that correct? Yeah, I was a pastor. So what happened is that I graduated from Gaston Community College.

At that point, Jody had already affirmed my call. I have already become a candidate for ordained ministry. Not quite yet certified, but I was on the road. How long did it take before he said, I don't think you're called? And then he journeyed with you. And at one point he said, you are called. About a year. I would say about a year, about a year. And we met pretty frequently.

And I can remember hearing his preaching on Sunday mornings. And I'm sitting here by myself, exhausted. I had just gotten off work five hours before and frightened to death. And I don't want to sound as if my own inner call within myself was quick and easy. I actually struggle with this. I was like, you know, I'm a new convert. I don't know if I should become a pastor because that's what all professional athletes do after they become a Christian. They think, oh, I'm called to ministry now. It was very, very difficult. But I can remember when I was starting to get serious about it, thinking to myself, gosh, wouldn't it be wonderful if I could make people on Sunday morning feel the

way I'm feeling hearing this man's preaching? And that really attracted me and struck me. So I forgot what your question was. But after graduating from Gaston Community College, I then transferred to UNC Chapel Hill. Okay. And I took a degree. I majored in religious studies. So I was pretty steeled that this was going to be my path. Are you married at this point? No, I'm not married. I was single at the time. Okay. What was it like being ordained?

Was that a big event for you, waiting that long? I would imagine it would have been. Yes, it was a big event. So I was ordained in 2007 after seminary, so we can go through seminary, because it was seminary who actually started the path for me to become Catholic. Really? Yes. into that, yes. And anybody who has graduated with me from Duke University listening or will listen to this podcast will say, yep, I can vouch for that. It was a very Catholic Orthodox education. But nevertheless, so after I graduated from seminary, you're supposed to submit a stack of papers for the Board of Ordea Ministry to become an elder.

I was so exhausted after seminary. I could not cite another book. I could not write another footnote. I really, I could not because I took everything seriously. Every paper had to be just perfect and I was exhausted. And so I took a year off. So I don't know why I told you that, but I just did. And, um, so I did submit my papers the next time and they passed me and it was just this relief. Like, okay, I've done this. I've done this. And so that was a great, a great moment for me. And I thought that's what I would do for the rest of my life. And how long were you a Methodist pastor until, just for those who are watching the live stream right now, who just tuned in, you were brought into the church this year.

I was brought, I became a Catholic in full communion this year. And how long was I... Since you were ordained to when you became a Catholic, how long were you a Protestant for? Well, let's see, I became a pastor in 2003. Okay. Yeah. Wow. At that point, I would be considered a local pastor in Methodism. That just simply means you have a license to serve that congregation and only that congregation. Um, so about 18 years. Yes, it was 18 years. It was 18 years. What was it that started to get you interested in Catholicism when you were in seminary okay we can talk about that so when

i was a student at unc chapel hill um i took classes with bart ehrman i don't know if you've ever heard of bart ermine and i can remember already sort of preparing myself for his class because he comes at it from a more or less agnostic, atheistic approach. And I can remember, and I loved Bart Durbin's instruction, but he would always have these conferences at the end of each semester where he's going to share his story. And it was almost, for lack of a better word, a de-evangelization strategy. But even while I was in college, I was reading some of the great apologists that I thought of at that time. I was reading C.S. Lewis. There was another guy named

Norman Geisler. I had read him. And I can remember thinking to myself, listening to Professor Ehrman, that it's a shame that he came from a fundamentalist background, It's a shame that he came from a fundamentalist background because if there's a crack in fundamentalism, the whole thing comes down. And yet he's espousing beliefs that the church never taught itself. So nevertheless, I was already and I was reading some Augustine at UNC, Augustine, excuse me, at UNC. When I matriculated at Duke Divinity School in 2003, I would say two things happened that we can talk about. Number one, I had a class, my first class with Professor Jeffrey Wainwright, a British United Methodist, who was thoroughly Catholic in his theology. And he introduced me to the beauty of the Catholic faith, the Catholic Orthodox.

And he would probably phrase it as little c Catholic Orthodox faith. And then later on that first semester, I came across a copy of A Story of the Soul by St. Therese Lejeu. Those two things set the stage. When you say he was thoroughly Catholic in his theology, give us some examples. He was a lover of the patristics. He talked about the sacrament of the Eucharist, even as a United Methodist. He would quote Flannery O'Connor, "'If it's just a symbol, then to hell with it.'"

So much so that there were students of his who would ask, "'Well, Professor Wainwright, "'why don't you become Catholic?' And I can remember, and now that I look back, his remark influenced me. He said, I was, "'Well, I've been asked that question many times, "'why don't I become Catholic?' But I was, well, I've been asked that question many times. Why don't I become Catholic?

But I was born a United Methodist. I encountered the Lord as a United Methodist. My family was United Methodist or Methodist at the time. And I will die a Methodist. And so that prevented him from converting. But he taught courses on iconography, the doctrine of the Holy Trinity. The first class that I had with him was the doctrine of, or not the doctrine of, but the Lord's Prayer. And we had to read the Cappadocians. And that had a profound influence on me. And I loved his intellect. He was very

creedal. And Methodism claims wants to be a creedal tradition. We embrace the creeds. And I remember committing that anytime I'm eligible to take a course offered by Professor Wainwright, I'm taking his course. So I had him more than any other professor. And he, I remember when I took his course on iconography, I came from an evangelical perspective. I never knew what icons were at the time. This was just not a part of my upbringing. And I can remember struck by the beauty of what I was seeing and reading the letters of Ignatius of Antioch. All of these things began to have a slow effect on me over the course of my three years in seminary. Therese, however...

How did you get in touch with that? I can't remember. I've been trying to remember that. Maybe she just found me. That's what I like to believe. She is my confirmation saint, so I had to take her name because I credit her with everything. What she did was she introduced me to the idea or the vocation of becoming a saint, that we should all aspire to become a saint.

And I loved her boldness. You know, that passage is so famous. And when I read it for the first time, it just dizzied me when she said, I don't want to be a saint by halves. I want all, I want everything. So she introduced me to the idea of, am I called to be a saint? That's language I've never heard before. And her zeal, her confidence and her boldness. And she introduced me to the devotion to the Virgin Mary that I had never considered before. But I remember seeing

the Virgin Mary in the courses like that first year in seminary, seeing her in icons and being struck by her beauty, but not to the degree of having a devotion. But anyway, that struck me. So what Therese did were those two things. She introduced me to those two things. Am I right in thinking that if you're a Methodist, there's a lot of flexibility in your theology? Because it would seem that you would kind of recoil at the idea of praying to Mary or the Eucharist. And here you are,

you've got a Methodist pastor who's talking about the Eucharist as if it's legitimate. I don't know if he prayed to saints or if he was open to that. Professor Wainwright? Yeah. Well, I remember he made a remark. He said to the Protestants in the room, he says, do we believe in eternal life or not? He had no reservations with praying to the saints. Was there anything at that point that you had a strong reservation to in Catholicism that you thought, okay, maybe they're right about X, Y, and Z, but they're not right about Z?

I don't think I was ever, I'd ever recoiled by anything. I think I was just underdeveloped. Like by the time I graduated from seminary, we could talk about the real presence of Christ, but I never really espoused transubstantiation at the time or got to that place. I guess what I'm trying to ask is, are there any Methodists who are strongly opposed to Catholic theology or elements of it? Because I mean, if I talk to an independent fundamentalist Baptist, they're going to be very, or even a Calvinist, you know, they're going to have very strong opinions about why the Catholic church is wrong about these certain things. But it doesn't sound like you ever had that. Were there other Methodists that had a strong opposition towards Catholicism? Well, if I would have written on my ordination papers, we should be praying to the

Virgin Mary and have a devotion and that the bread is truly substantially his body, blood, soul, and divinity. That would probably disqualify me from being a Methodist at that point. So they still, there were certain points of doctrine that the Methodist church would not necessarily espouse. But John Wesley, his concept was the via media or media via, you know, the middle way. The middle way. You know, there are many things that we are not going to agree on, but can we at least think alike in charity? So that was pretty much his philosophy.

Fair enough. And theology. When you were a Protestant pastor, were there aspects of, say, Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy that you now accepted, such as iconography, or Eastern Orthodoxy that you now accepted, such as iconography, or maybe something else that you sought to bring into your worship to say, hey, you don't need to be a Catholic, but this is something we could perhaps embrace? Well, that's a great question. Iconography, yes. So my first appointment was at a little church called Harmony United Methodist Church. And I got the phone call as a student, and the person on the other line, he says, you're going to Harmony United Methodist Church. And I got the phone call as a student and the person on the other line, he says, you're going to Harmony United Methodist Church in Harmony, North Carolina. I had

no idea where that was, but I went. And I do remember introducing them to iconography. Now, by the time of my first year, which we may get into, I was an extremely confused post-seminary graduate whose world had been rocked by my introduction to Catholic theology. Oh, wow. From year one, you felt like that. Oh, yeah, yeah. Maybe we should talk about that. Sure. And I don't want to be misunderstood either, but I was very confused coming out of seminary because I don't know what this means. I couldn't shake my love for the Catholic doctrines that we were reading. I mean, we were reading Matt Cardinal Ratzinger at the time. So we were reading great Catholic minds. At the time he was Lutheran, was Reinholt Hutter. He's now teaching at Catholic University. He was a professor who converted to Catholic Catholicism while I was in seminary,

or just shortly thereafter, maybe in 2003, 2004, all of this had an effect on me. Um, but what was clearly happening to me was a growing attraction to the Virgin Mary kind of backtracking, going all kinds of circles. I can remember after that first semester, after I had read the story of the soul and I was taking Jeffrey Wainwright's introduction to theology class I made it my first paper for his class the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception because I wanted to know more about it Wow yeah because not that I wanted to refute it I was just well this is interesting I want to know a little bit more about why does the church teach this why did the Pope pronounce it as dogma in 1854?

Reinhardt, was that his last name? Reinhardt Hooter. What was his opinion of the Immaculate Conception? I don't know at the time. But I do remember there was some paper, some treaties that the Catholic Church published on the doctrine of justification, and he said, the protesting for me has ended. There's no longer any reason for me to protest. And he would say that Protestantism was a reaction against Catholicism so that it would reform. It is now, in my estimation, reformed, and he became Catholic. That had an indirect influence on me at the time of my early ministry.

Was there any sort of repercussions from the university? I don't think so. I think he was still there. He was brilliant. He was scary. One of those scary, smart people. And so, yeah, that's where I was at the time. But I remember doing the paper on the Immaculate Conception, and I was convinced of what I read. And then I thought to myself, well, if this is true, if what the Catholic Church is teaching about Mary here is true, that she was immaculately conceived, then what else is true? Because for many Protestants, that would be one of the biggest obstacles to overcome, and here you are, first year pastor. I know, isn't it crazy? 17 years ago. You're like, this is, I agree with

the church on this. Well, it's because I think most Protestants have a misunderstanding of what the Immaculate Conception really means. They think it means that Jesus was not the Redeemer of the Blessed Mother. Well, he absolutely was the Redeemer of the Blessed Mother in a higher way than he was for us. And so the argument, you know this, that's one of the things I've learned is that when I was a Protestant pastor, I was sharing some Catholic doctrine to people for whom it was new. But now that I'm a Catholic and sharing this with other Catholics, oh yeah, we've known that for years. But you know, we have a lot of people watching and they would like an explain, so help us understand. But I can't even remember where I was, but that Jesus saved her in a higher way. And the argument was,

is that which is the greater way to save someone before that person falls and then bandage their wombs or to prevent them from falling and injuring him or herself to begin with? To prevent someone from falling is the higher means of redemption. And I was like, that is a, for me, that was brilliant. And it made sense of genesis 3 you know the pronouncement the proto-evangelium of the woman will have an offspring and there will be enmity between the serpent and the woman well how can there be enmity hostility real contempt between the woman and the serpent if the woman is somehow ensnared in what the serpent had introduced to the world.

Okay, that makes sense. Oh, Hail Mary full of grace, the phrase full of grace was a participle. I can't remember exactly what it was. I'm not very good at Greek. I'm from North Carolina. We're not good at Greek. But the participle was, he was saying full of grace, not in the moment, which is what most Protestants would say. Well, she's being sanctified now in the moment, but it's a past action that denotes an ongoing activity.

All of that came together that she was saved by the grace of Jesus Christ, but it was a preservative grace. For me, it made sense. And then I thought, well, then if she is the woman who collaborates with the offspring, then yes, of course she would be without sin because she could not be a captive to the serpent's curse. Otherwise, be a captive to the serpent's curse. Otherwise, it would not be hostility against her. And then I realized that, oh, if you're going to espouse that God has to operate in time, then of course, Protestants would have, or anybody would have a hard time understanding how could the redemption, the redemptive work of Christ apply to her in advance. But if God transcends time, then of course the redemptive work of Christ on the cross could be applied to her in a transcendent way.

But I'm not making a great case right now for this, but I remember being convinced that she's sinless. And this could change everything. But it did not make me want to become Catholic in that moment. It just made me more attracted become Catholic in that moment. It just made me more attracted to her at that point. Okay. So when did you get married?

Well, I met my wife in seminary, so my second year of seminary. So at the end of my second year, May 11th, so before we started our third year, we got married. How did she feel about some of your catholic leanings being a graduate from a seminary herself well she was never a non-supportive but i think she just said well that's just shane being shane uh we're both on the journey to become pastors and so that's what we're going to do did she too become a pastor she did she became a associate pastor at a congregation in Hickory, North Carolina. And she did that until our child was born, first child was born.

Okay, so real quick, spoiler alert, is your wife now Catholic? She is Catholic. So this is the story of how two Protestant pastors became Catholic. Yes, and it was her conversion that I knew at that point. It was the beginning of the end for me. And when was that? Or the end of the new beginning. Yay, that's a good way of putting it. When was her conversion to Catholicism?

She became a Catholic in full communion in December of 2019, so a few months before COVID struck. And I credit her conversion to the Blessed Mother, but we can get into that a little bit later. Okay. Yeah. All right, well talk us, I mean, this is 17 years, as you say, 18 years since you became a pastor until you became a pastor to you, you became Catholic. Maybe help us understand this journey towards Catholicism. One of the things you said to me when we were on the phone together is, and you can correct

me if I got this wrong, but you said, look, this wasn't like this massive blinding light, courageous choice where I saw the truth and became Catholic. You said this took a long time. This took a long time. And I did say that. I said, you know, a lot of the Protestant clergy whose stories I've heard, they say, oh, I saw the light. And I immediately went into the light.

And I resigned the next day. I began seeing the light and was like, oh, Lord, please delay this. Make me a Catholic, but not yet. Yeah, sure. You know, it frightened me. So it was a long, arduous journey. So after I graduated from Duke, I thought about, well, could I go into the PhD program? That would be interesting. But I was so exhausted. And I remember having such a lack of self-confidence in seminary. And I still struggle with that to this day. Like, well, am I really called to be a pastor?

Well, the only way I'm going to find out is if I jump in and try to become a pastor. And I remember when I started that appointment in Harmony, as I said earlier, I was very confused still. Like, what does this mean that I'm becoming much more Catholic in some of my thinking? And I want to know more about the liturgy of the church. I want to know more about that. I want to know more about the liturgy of the church. I want to know more about Mary. I want to know more about the saints. I want to know more about just Catholic doctrine,

some boilerplate things for the Catholic church. And you couple my own, the suddenness of my conversion, which then translated to what I would say is the suddenness of my call to ministry. All of a sudden I'm in seminary and I'm thrust out into a parish. I was very confused, and so I didn't know how to handle it. And what I ended up doing, I said, I'm going to contact the professor who has ruined my life right now, and that's Professor Wainwright. And I remember going to a convocation,

like a continuing ed assembly at Duke. So I went back to Duke that October. So I started my pastorate about July. So I'm back on the campus of Duke in October and confused. And I met with Professor Wainwright and I said, hey, my friend, I'm struggling here. I don't know what this means. I think God might be calling me a Catholic. Have you ever been to a mass?

No. But is this possible? I'm just, I need help. And then he said to me, I've had a number of students do what have your thoughts and who converted. And then he put me in touch with a former student of his who earned his PhD at Duke, who then converted from Methodism to Catholicism. And at the time was on the road to becoming a priest. So he put me in touch with him. And for the life of me, I'm going to try to remember his name. He was the most hospitable man I have ever met.

I think his name, he would be father now, John Ramsey in Virginia. And so I went to meet, at the time he was a seminarian, and he met with me in his farmstead in Farmland, Virginia. And he was so delightful and so gentle. And I said, well, what does this mean? And I can't remember what his counsel was, but it was to go slow. I do remember that. And he understood, well, you're married now, and now you've got a wife.

This would be a tremendous transition for you. And then he said, why don't you go to a local priest? And I did that. Were you doing this under the radar? I was. If some of your parishioners had discovered you were doing this, would they have been quite scandalized? They would be. And another reason that I've been reluctant to air all this,

yeah, I was doing this covertly because I was so confused and I wanted to do what God's will was. But here I was thinking I had been called to be a United Methodist pastor, and I staked everything on that. And to have that rug even tugged, it frightened me. Makes sense. It really did. So I was a confused young man. And I did meet that local priest, and he met with me for a period of time. And to make another very longer story short, I can remember when I met with him again he says Shana I because we even asked could I even become a priest is it possible and he said the only way to find out is to talk to the bishop well the bishop was a no okay I accept that

and then the last time I met with him he says Shane who this is the exact words he used you're nailed I really don't know what you can do and then I remember leaving that parish and I thought to myself, I'm done with these ambiguous games. Just like when I converted, I'm either all in or I'm not. And I can remember leaving. I'm going to be a United Methodist pastor. I owe it to the people to whom I've been sent to be all in as a United Methodist

pastor, to love these people, and to do what I can as faithfully as I can at that time. And I closed the door. I did. I closed the door. So you resolved to put those temptations towards Catholicism aside. I did. I did. Let me ask you, because you said earlier, I was terrified about Catholicism being true, I think you said, or scared to death. Well, what was that? Because I was in a situation... What were you scared about? Well, what will I think you said, or scared to death about it. Well, because I was in a situation- What were you scared about? Well, what will I do for the rest of my life? Yeah, good. That's a very practical concern. It's very understandable.

Yeah, well, you know, this is what, I mean, I became indebted to, you know, Sallie Mae so I could become a pastor. What am I going to do for the rest of my life? Because I don't have any other marketable skills that I'm aware of. I can work in a restaurant. But that's what was terrifying to me. And especially, the door was especially closed after the birth of my daughter. I mean, I did not want to play with that. Now, there are going to be some people who say, well, you should have just trusted the Lord and done it. I get it. But at the time, in the environment in which I was in, I just felt that I was betraying those people at Harmony whom I loved. That's what we need to get into.

One of the reasons it's very hard for Protestant clergy to leave and to become Catholic is because they love the people they serve and they love what they do day in and day out as well. But I shut the door and I completely invested in my ministry at the time, did not look back. Did you seek to find ways to discount Catholicism? No, I never did. If I did anything, I tried to seek ways to enlighten the people I served about some truths of Catholic doctrine. So for instance, to show them that Mary has a critical role in our redemption. She's not a redeemer, of course, but she did collaborate with the Lord. Let's show them how. I can remember, for instance, when I was introduced to Irenaeus'

concept of the new eve. Now, when I presented that to the Methodist people I was serving, they were very open to that. That made sense to them because you could draw on the scripture, you know, Christ is the Adam, you know, in Romans 7. And if there's a new Adam, there must be a new Eve and that she plays that part. So that's what I ended up actually doing, was just trying to show them, hey, don't be afraid of the icons. Let's talk about why. Well, we believe in the incarnation. We don't believe that we're worshiping the image. We are worshiping the one who was represented in this image and who became flesh for us, visible.

Did you ever get any pushback from parishioners? This sounds too Catholic. No, that happened later. So that happened near the end of my time. That's when I realized that I was probably at the point of no return. But that was still a very difficult time for me. But we have a lot of time. So that's what I did.

I just tried to share with them the treasures. There's some treasure here. And unfortunately, it's been buried for some of us. And I did not think I was in any way doing a disservice or compromising my own Methodism. As a matter of fact, one of the things that kept me a United Methodist is that I, in my own mind, was able to reconcile Methodism and Catholicism. How so? How did you do that? Well, a lot of Catholics have the wrong impression of even United Methodists or Protestants in general. But a United Methodist, I'm just giving you one example.

We're not Sola Scriptura in the United Methodist Church. We've never claimed to be sola scriptura. Scripture is primary, but it is not sola. It is not only. Now you tell that to a Catholic, oh, I did not know that. Okay. We are very creedal. We do believe in the communion of the saints. Now you will not find many Methodists praying to the saints, but they are open to the concept, the doctrine. The Methodist church teaches the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Now, we'll have to get into that a little bit later about what does real presence really mean, but they did not espouse the idea of a memorial meal, which would be more of a reformed, like it's just, you're just reenacting something that's already happened. Yeah. Baptism as being essential. Tradition being consequential to our understanding of Scripture.

You could even say that John Wesley himself was a player in my conversion to Catholicism over a long period of time. Why? Because he was the one telling the clergy, read the patristics. No church history. Don't spend all of clergy, read the patristics. No church history. Don't spend all of your time in the last 200 years. Go as far back as you possibly can and understand the traditions and the doctrine. John Wesley himself was accused of being a Catholic priest at the time. I did not know that.

Yeah, you're just a papist. What you're teaching is Catholicism. Now, what he could not do is tolerate the idea of the pope. But yes, there's a lot of connection between Catholicism and Methodism if you are not going to go underneath the surface and really try to parse what that really means. Stanley Hauerwas, one of my professors in seminary, in his voice, he says, well, you know, Methodists are just evangelical Catholics to begin with. I mean, that's how he

framed it. We're just evangelical Catholics. And I'll tell you this. Remember when I said that people told Professor Wainwright, you should become Catholic? And he says, no, I'm going to die a Methodist. Now, looking back, when he said, I'm going to remain a United Methodist, still espouse some of these great, beautiful Catholic doctrines, that influenced me too, because he was able to stay. Why couldn't I? So that really had an impression on me. So, okay, you shut the door on Catholicism. When did you start opening the crack again? Okay. Well, I did not start. Well, let's go back up even farther again, because it's not like a linear story of mine.

It's like this. That's how I think most people's stories are. I began when I was ordained in 2007, and I thought I was going to die an ordained United Methodist elder. I remember I started wearing a collar. And what really convinced me to wear the collar, and the Catholic priest listening to me like, he wore the collar. Now that I look back, I'm like, yeah, but that's what I did. There was a book by Lauren Winner, and she is now or was a professor of Duke Divinity School.

And she made this argument about clothing, how clothing affects us. And clothing tells the story of who we are. And if you don't, and she says it's foolish in her book. I can't remember the name of the book. I think it's actually called Real Sex. But she says, and if it is foolish to think your clothing does not have an influence on your behavior, it does. Otherwise, we'd be going to the prom in blue jeans and t-shirts.

There's something that it does. I'm like, okay, well, if clothing tells a story, then what tells the story of my vocation better than the clerical collar? So I remember wearing that, and I always read Catholic theologians. So I read Aquinas. I started studying Aquinas, started studying Augustine, I started studying Aquinas, started studying Augustine, Cardinal Ratzinger. And I was incorporating all of that in my sermons and in my preaching, and it did nothing but enrich my sermons. You didn't consider that opening the door to Catholicism? When you said you shut it all out, you were still okay reading Catholic theologians and bishops?

Well, I guess when I say I shut the door, I mean I'm going to leave everything and become a Catholic. I shut that door. Sure, I see going to leave everything and become a Catholic. I shut that door. Sure, I see. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And oh, by the way, and Methodist would not call it becoming a saint, but John Wesley's

in the Methodist doctrine is perfection. We should be perfected in love in this life. We should be cooperating with the Holy Spirit to such a degree that we love the Lord perfectly. So he wouldn't say we need to become saints, but he would say we need to be perfected in love. And so that's another connection to Catholicism that really helped me hold on for as long as I did. It sounds like you were more open to Catholic ideas than your wife may have been in seminary.

And since she was the first to become Catholic, did she begin opening the door? How did that happen with her? Well, see, that's at the tail end of everything. So what happened is I also read Scott Hahn's book, Rome's Sweet Home. What did you think of it when you read it? Bishop Robert Barron has this phrase that says it grabs you by the lapels quality. It does, yeah. You know, like sometimes when you read scripture, it just has this grabs you by the lapels quality. It does, yeah. You know, like sometimes when you read scripture, it just has this grabs you by the lapels. Well, that grabbed me by the lapels.

But it also induced greater confusion in me at the time because remember, I was brand new. I'm like, what does this mean? What does this mean? This all seems true. I get it. And she read the book with me, but she was not taken by it to the degree that I was.

That there is nothing here that would say, okay, Shane, we need to give it all up. And we could be compatible with all of this. And she never used that language, but she was not taken to the same degree that I was. And she knew about some of my Catholic devotional practices, for instance. And we'd haven't even gotten to that. Yeah. So, and I did start praying the rosary. I was going to say, tell us about a Protestant pastor's Catholic devotional practices, for instance. And we'd haven't even gotten to that. So I did start praying the rosary. I was going to say, tell us about a Protestant pastor's Catholic devotional life.

What does that look like? Well, it's more than the Book of Common Prayer. What I ended up doing, I can remember I said I had never gone to a mass before. So my first year as a pastor, I did say, okay, Professor Wainwright's right. I better just go to a mass. And it was a horrible experience. Really? Oh, it was terrible. Because it was such a sloppily performed. No, it wasn't that. I just remember it was like, again, when you walk into a Protestant church,

you're greeted with warmth and hospitality and hugs. And you're visiting the church, we'll put you on our shoulders and carry you around. I walk in, I was like, nobody cares, on our shoulders and carry you around. I walk in. I was like, nobody cares. I'm here. And it was silent. It was just all this silence.

And then when mass ended, no one spoke to me. But I remember there was some rosaries there. Okay. I picked up one of these cheap plastic rosaries. You knew what it was? I knew what it was. I did not know how to pray it. And I can remember.

So I've got a rosary in my hand. I remember having it on the table the first time. And I thought to myself, I need to try to pray this. But it felt like as if I was getting ready to step into a cold shower. You know, you're like, here we go. Oh, wow. Because am I getting ready to commit an act of idolatry? So I was still worried. And I remember praying it.

I prayed it. I did it horribly. And I followed something on some website that allowed me to do it. It was very clunky. But then I prayed it again. And then I was hooked. Because what I did is I actually was able to focus for the first time on the mysteries. And then I realized this is Christocentric.

I'm only thinking about Jesus while I'm reciting scripture. Hail Mary, full of grace. That's the angel Gabriel. Blessed are you among women. Well, that's what Elizabeth said to Mary. It's still Christocentric. Why is Mary full of grace? Because of Christ. She's nothing outside of him. And I made for the first time a connection between Mary

and Christ that I never would have made a connection before. And it was Philippians 2, where it says, you know, Jesus emptied himself. And I remember praying the first mystery of the joyful mysteries, or this is the glorious ministries, either way, the enunciation, and that Mary emptied herself in that moment, the way Christ emptied himself. And actually, she emptied herself because Christ, his way is to empty ourselves, and that the fullness of grace really means to be emptied of the self. She had no ego. I remember just making that connection for the will of God.

And I thought that did not draw me away from Christ. That has drawn me to him in a very deeper way and being struck by that. And so I began praying the rosary and I did it. My wife doesn't like me using this language. At the time, I did it in secret because I was afraid. Look, if anybody knows that I'm doing this, I'm going to be outed. I'm going to be on the evening news. It's going to be horrible. Only later did I realize that even Anglicans were praying the rosary. And I think from based on some writings, John Wesley himself prayed it, which is interesting. And then I became more open about it later, but it enriched my life.

So I went from the rosary and then I took a trip to Washington, D.C. with my wife. I went to a Catholic bookstore that I think still might be there. I can't remember the name of it. And I asked the bookseller, what are some Catholic devotional things? You got anything you pray? Like I'm a Methodist and we have the Book of Common Prayer. And they said, have you ever heard of the Liturgy of the H hours? I said, no, I've never heard of it. Well, we, you should, she introduced me to the liturgy of the hours and I bought the four volume set

and went home and had no idea where to begin, but I slowly self-taught myself how to do it by going online. And so I would pray the liturgy of the hours. So we're rosary liturgy of the hours, but the liturgy of the hours with nothing more than Psalms. As you know, it's just the Psalter, a four-week cycle of Psalters. And so I did that. And so I was studying the great saints of the church at John Wesley's behest. See, that's the thing. He told me that he did. John Wesley said, you need to know the great minds of the church if you yourself want to be a great mind of the church. So I was doing those things. You said you kept your recitation of the rosary secret, but did you keep it secret from your wife?

No. What did she think about that? She made me a rosary soon thereafter, and I still have it. That's beautiful. A Protestant pastor makes a Protestant pastor a rosary. Some preachers' wives in Protestantism play the piano and teach Sunday school. My wife makes rosaries. And did she keep it a secret? No, she did not. And what was the reaction of her friends?

Her reaction was, Shane's just being Shane. This is just what he wants. I don't get it. I don't understand it, but it doesn't seem to be hurting anything. And so she did support me, but she never prayed a rosary with me. But I loved it. And yes, it can be rote and it can be dry, but I stuck with it. But you know what? Like soaking date nights, they can be rote and dry. It doesn't mean we don't do them. Sure, sure. That's exactly right. And I can remember having thoughts like praying the rosary, again, back to the Annunciation. You know how Jesus Jesus says this is my body given for you and I remember praying the rosary reflecting on Mary's fiat here I am that what did she say to the Lord in that moment but this is my body given for you so before the Lord could say this

is my body given for you our blessed mother said this is my body given for you, Lord. I mean, to me, that just enriched my understanding of Christ, which, of course, now that I'm a wannabe Mariologist and have a long way to go, I realize that's her mission, is to bring you to Christ. Yeah. You said to me that you met Scott Hahn. Where were you on your journey? Well, I did not meet Scott Hahn. We did speak by phone. So a priest in my last year, we'll need to really talk about that. It's a part of my story. He attended the Eucharistic Congress in Charlotte. So this priest and Scott Hahn was one of the keynote speakers. I see. And so I had already confronted, confronted is the wrong word. I consulted this priest

when we're getting into my second conversion, I guess you could say, a couple of years ago. And he approached Dr. Hahn and said, I got this Protestant. I don't know what to do with him. And can you do something? And Dr. Hahn gave the priest his contact information. I texted him. He's too busy. He called me immediately. He's good like that. Ah, that really struck me.

And I was like, I just can't believe I spoke with Dr. Scott Hahn. And then we corresponded by text a few times as well. So that's how I know Dr. Hahn. You referred to it as your second conversion. Well, yes. So how did that be? When I was at the point of no return. Okay, so how did that happen?

How did the point of no return come about? Well, I'm going to be able to summarize my whole story in no time. If you'd like to go back, we can do that. No, no, you're in charge. time. If you'd like to go back, we can do that. No, you're in charge. So my Marian devotion just continued to flourish and deepen. And I ended up doing the De Montfort consecration. Oh, no, you were gone at that point. There's no return at all. I didn't know that at the time. I remember getting, I ordered the copy of Total Consecration because it kept showing up on my Amazon suggestions. Forgive me, how many years ago was this that you did the DeMontfort Consecration? It was two years ago, April of 2019. I see. So a little bit more than two years now. And yes, that was what set me down

the path. And I remember seeing it. It was a suggested reading. I said, I keep seeing this thing. I'm going to order it. And I remember as I was reading it, this is something I had to do. This was... For those not familiar with the De Montfort consecration, let people know how that happens, 33 days, that sort of thing. Well, first you begin by really reflecting on the why. What is Mary's role in the life of Christ? Take seriously how the Lord came to us. How did he come to us? How did the Word become flesh? It became flesh through Mary. How should we go to the Christ? Go through Mary. Take seriously the way.

You know, Jesus says, I'm the way, the truth, and the life. Let's take seriously his way. What was his way to us? And how Mary, what really struck me was, I think he was invoking Augustine about how Mary is the mold of the Holy Spirit, the mold of Christ. If you pour, you know, that the Holy Spirit, Christ's body was formed in her. And if you pour yourself into Mary through devotion to her, she will form Christ in you. And I was like, oh, that's beautiful. Now there may have been, but someone else in Protestantism will find that may be repelling. And, but to me, that struck me.

And so then you, after you read about Mary, about why this matters, why you should do it, because Christ had a devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary. This is about Christlikeness. And by the way, that's how I try to talk to Protestants about why Mary? You know, why, let's be Christlike, but we'll get into that later. And then you have a series for 33 days. You are preparing yourself to make this act of consecration when you are saying, I want to be so much like Christ who became dependent on his mother that I too will be like him and become dependent upon Mary so that Christ will be formed in me. So it is thoroughly Christological and Christocentric.

It is about Jesus. What's your response to a Protestant watching right now who says, how is that not idolatry to consecrate yourself to a human, to the mother of Jesus? Yes, but a human nonetheless. Well, because if we have a competitive understanding of grace, yeah, I can see why they would make that argument. The reason it is not is because you were following the very path Jesus himself took. And that's something that I did try to teach as a Protestant pastor, that discipleship in the biblical New Testament sense is not just following Jesus. That's true. The New Testament understands discipleship as participating in his life, the fullness of his life, letting him live the fullness of his life in you,

which includes his infancy, his ministry, his death, his sufferings, his resurrection. We are to participate fully in that. And that if we are going to truly participate in the life of Christ, the fullness of his life, then Mary is going to have to have a central role. And what did Jesus do in Luke chapter two, but become obedient to his blessed mother? And so you're just following that pattern. While you're praying through these 33 days, making your consecration, when was the point that you said, I think I might have to become a Catholic? Okay.

Well, at the time, I thought I could still reconcile. Really. I'm going to be all in on being the pastor of this church. And then I think I realized it after about June or July of that year during the turmoil that was happening in the denomination, which is another very long story. And it was about that point I realized I'm in trouble. But what was the tipping point for me was the conversion of my wife. At that point, I realized, okay, this is something I can't avoid any longer.

So again, it wasn't this dramatic time for me to go. It was still a very slow process, but the conversion of my wife, who at the time of my consecration to Mary, she had no idea she would ever become Catholic. As a matter of fact, I think the book fell open in front of her and she saw some of the language that DeMontfort was using. And she's given me permission to say this. My gosh, he's lost it. He's joined a cult. This is cultic language. And I can remember I found some t-shirt online that has the insignia, the A, the A, V. Have you seen? I can't think of what it is. I know what you mean. Okay. So there's a t-shirt and I bought it on zazzle.com. Never even heard of Zazzle. And I bought it. She saw the t-shirt.

She was like, we have got to have a talk. And she more or less says that you are leaving me for another woman and it is Mary. And I said, well, she is mother, not spouse. What's interesting is Scott in Rome Sweet Home talks about that. Kimberly. Which I forgot about. Yeah.

She talks about this, almost this jealousy of this attention going towards another woman. Yes. But there was a sense, not of infatuation, but yes, I guess you could say from one perspective, it was an overnight change in me and she didn't saw it coming. But she did end up telling me a little bit later that I did see its profound good effects on you. That you were becoming different.

You were becoming a different person. And that had an influence on her. One of the things that De Montfort says is that if you allow Mary to be your mother, truly look to her as your mother, a creature, not divine. But if you look to her as your mother, she'll become the mother of your entire house if you let her. And I can remember my wife for those four or five months, she was letting me do my thing. I was being a Marian. She called me as she was leaving to go visit her mother and father-in-law, stepfather, excuse me, in Kansas. And she called me from the airport. She says, you know, I think I might want to pray a rosary.

And I immediately ordered one for her. And she came home and she prayed the rosary. And four months later, she's a convert to Catholicism. Wow. And if you had have told her when that book opened back then, you'll probably become a Catholic one day. What would have her response been? No, no. I don't think she would have resisted it, but I don't think it was even on her radar at the time, you know, because she's had an evolution of thought and theology over the years

because, you know, I did remember being a Methodist pastor struggling with, we have women who are serving as pastors. It seems to be okay. That's not what the Catholic Church teaches. So it's not like I was thoroughly Catholic even when I was a Methodist. You know, I was very much a Methodist who had a lot of Catholic doctrine under his belt with a devotion to Mary. So what's that like as a Protestant pastor whose wife is becoming a Catholic? Well, I supported her in the journey. What about your congregation?

They did not know at the time. And I made a calculated decision, maybe it was not the right one, not to really say anything about it. I did not want to go step into the pulpit one Sunday morning and say, hey, everybody, guess what? My wife is a Catholic. You'll never see her probably much in the service ever again. She makes lovely rosaries, though. I think my hope was that we would be able to demonstrate that it's possible to live in two different worlds.

So her conversion happened, and then I befriended a priest at the Catholic parish near where I served. So after my De Montfort consecration, and I did it on Palm Sunday of 2019 by myself. And I remember there was a vacation break for me and I went to mass and I had not really been to mass all that many times, but I can remember after this particular mass, there was a priest there. I'm going to, I'm going to give him a shout at his name is Father Brian Becker. And then after the mass, he's there greeting the parishioners. I walked past him and was headed to my car. But then I said, you know, I'm going to turn back around and ask him if he can meet with someone like me. So I turned back around and I said, hey, do you ever meet with people through the week?

Because I've got something going on in my life and I'd really like to meet with you. And he said, sure. And so we met and then we might need to take a break. But he was very pivotal in helping me turn this corner. No, we don't need to take a break unless you do. Tell us. No, I'm good. How was he pivotal? So he met with me and then I explained to him all that was going on.

So I gave him in a very condensed way my story and I told him what I had done. And then I remember he just asked me questions about Catholic doctrine, spirituality. And then he was such a wonderful listener. And what I'm going to tell you, he said he did not say, but this is what I heard him say. OK, because he was much more priestly. He was very gentle, but firm. He said, my paraphrase. Shane, everything you're telling me.

Indicates to me. You're already Catholic. You are not going to be able to have peace until you cross the Rubicon. He didn't put it that way. And then I remember he gave me counsel about how truth makes a claim over us. And that you need to understand that this is a grace. This is grace, God's grace operating in your life to help you see the Catholic Church as the fullness of truth. You're going to need to unite yourself with the fullness of truth. And he even used or maybe used the language, maybe it was later, of obligation fullness of truth. And he even used, or maybe used the language, maybe it was later, of obligation, you know, because of truth. Well, I left and going,

well, I'm not doing, I've got a family. I've got these people to serve. I was still not quite there yet. But I met with him again. And I remember he asked me questions like, well, I'm curious, what do you in the Methodist Church do about mortal sin? What do you think is happening when you are breaking the bread in your church? He even came over to our house for dinner one day, and it was perfect because he was very Christ-like. Because you know how Jesus ruined Pharisees' dinners? He would go into their homes, eat dinner with them, and just drop some. You're like, she's loving me more than you people.

But I remember he really questioned me even at the house. Like, what's going through your mind when you are presiding at your communion table? when you are presiding at your communion table? How do you reconcile what God is helping you claim about the doctrine of the transubstantiation, he didn't say that, versus what you're doing? And I remember trying to reconcile the two. You should have said, this is how Socrates got killed. Stop asking questions.

Yeah, but he did not corner me in any way. He just asked the questions, Yeah, but he did not corner me in any way. He just asked the questions, which made me have to wrestle with them. Yeah, what am I doing? So he was the first priest to really challenge me in the most priestly way. I don't want anybody to get the wrong impression. He did an amazing job. He was a true spiritual director for me. And then I began, as the months went on, to realize, oh, my gosh, am I being a coward?

Like, I mean, really? Because I don't want to be. But I've got this family. I don't know what I'm going to do with the rest of my life. Is this really what God wants me to do just to leave all of this behind? What ended up happening is that I started attending mass frequently because my wife is now Catholic. And I think the mass strengthened my resolve. And I'm fast forwarding a little bit, but there was power there to the point where I've got to do this, but I can remember thinking to myself, am I being

duplicitous too? But I tried my best to rationalize my way out of that. I really did. We're, we're, we're, we all love the Lord, you know, and these people need a pastor. And I can remember during COVID thinking, well, if I left, what are they? I mean, this is a terrible time. I owe it to these people to try to shepherd them, to shepherd the church. And again, I go back to what kept me in is because I loved the people and I loved the work and I loved preaching. You know, I loved all of these things. But I eventually realized that, no, at some point I can't live with this much longer.

But I will say this. It wasn't just me. I was in a situation at the time where there was pressure coming from even the church and the denomination I was serving. So there was reaction. There even the church and the denomination I was serving. So there was reaction. There was concern about me, about not so much that we think he's Catholic, although there was a couple of people says, I think he loves Mary. And that could be a problem. Well, if it's not right to love the Blessed Mother, I'm guessing I'm not in the wrong place.

You know, I guess I'm in the wrong place. But there was a lot of pressure coming from the congregation as well. What else were they seeing, do you mind me asking? It's not so much they were seeing as what they were not seeing. So I want to make sure my language is right. In 2019, the denomination had been ratified or really readopted its position on traditional marriage. Now, I will say that up until about 2019, which is the same year I did the De Montfort consecration, I really never gave a lot of thought to same-sex marriage in the church. I mean, but after that decision, I remember thinking, I need to know a

little bit more about the arguments here. And I started reading again, becoming reacquainted with the arguments, why this is theologically an error. And I became convinced that it's traditional marriage. And what I think was happening is that the denomination is not really necessarily shifting that direction. And so there were those within the church who wanted me to speak out and to be a little bit more vocal. And I was fairly new to that congregation at first, and that's the last thing that I wanted to do.

And at the time, by the way, at the time by the way at the time i was still myself was not thinking about converting you know this is where i was i've just got to figure out how to how to serve here but there was a lot of of concern um criticism and i was feeling that pressure as well so it's almost as if you could say and this is really a haphazard way to put it, I was almost squeezed out too. So there were two directions. There was my own inner conviction coinciding with the church as well. So were there many people in your congregation who wanted you to affirm so-called same-sex marriage? There was a sizable number of people.

So when you say it's what I wasn't saying, is that what you're referring to? That's correct. That's correct. And it wasn't where I saw the denomination going to begin with, that I was becoming more and more a minority within my own denomination. And what does this mean? So I was extrapolating out like, okay, what is this going to look like if they do change the language? But it was a very tumultuous time right after that vote to adopt the traditional stance. It really was just, it wasn't adopt. It was more or less just restating.

But wouldn't that give you more job security if you're towing the party line, to put it crassly? It's not as if they came down on the side of same-sex marriage and then you were against it. You agreed with what your church now restated. Well, I was up until 2019 when I was serving other churches. Again, it was not on my radar. You know, this was not I didn't think I had a dog in this hunt.

I just didn't think about the about the theology. I was just I said I just loved whoever came to the congregation. Yeah, that's whoever you are. I'm going to love you. And once I started revisiting the theological implications on this, and then I realized, oh, this is a problem. I could not stay in the denomination if it decided to. Oh, I see. Yeah. But sorry, I'm a little confused, but they did restate that a marriage is one man and one woman.

Yes. There's what's called general conference, which is simply the official mouth of the denomination. And it is an assembly that consists of, it's a global representation. So Methodists from all over the world go to this convention and it sets the laws. So once the church restates that, why are you still worried? Your congregation can just leave. Because of, I think, the nature of the context in which I was serving and the American, the Western context in which I was serving, which desperately wanted to see that language overturned. Got you. Yes. And it became, at times, extreme.

The grassroots initiative, as it were, is pushing the same-sex agenda. And, you know, I will be honest. I was very hurt at times. It was vicious. I had never really been a part of that kind of nastiness directed at me, as new as I was. And it was difficult. It was difficult.

But that pressure just continued to mount and to mount and to mount. But that pressure just continued to mount and to mount and to mount. And I came to a decision, well, to the realization it wasn't a decision that even if I were to remain a United Methodist pastor, this is not a good fit. That congregation. This is not going to be sustainable. But what I did do is, OK, I need to do whatever I can to serve these people as faithfully as I can until the time for us to part ways happens. And even then I wasn't thinking, and I'll be a Catholic in a year and a half anyway, so it doesn't matter.

Really, that thought had never crossed my mind. So that was happening. So this wasn't just me. I think it was the context as well, the circumstances as well. Were you getting any pressure from your wife to become Catholic? No, no, no. My wife is wonderful. She wondered, how is the congregation going to react that I have just converted? But I will say that there was a time where if that would have happened, if a Baptist, if the preacher's wife or the preacher's husband would have converted, that would have been a scandal. But there are other clergy whose spouses are serving in other denominations or

even attending another church, not their own. I mean, there are Catholics, there are Catholic deacons who have spouses that attend the local. So it's not as scandalous as it would have been. I think what I did is that maybe I should have been more forthcoming with the people around me who had to make leadership decisions that, hey, my wife has just converted and I did not stop it. She's on fire for the Lord. She loves Jesus. I mean, it's just what's happening in her life is remarkable. But I did not stop it. She's on fire for the Lord. She loves Jesus. I mean, it's just what's happening in her life is remarkable, but I did not do that. So what ended up happening is

that some members of leadership did say, hey, there have been family members of members of our church who attend the Catholic parish who have seen you in the Mass, and we just want to know, you know, tell us a little bit about that. Yeah. Okay. So what happened next? They did their job. Exactly. They were doing their job. Yeah. And I just made it really about my wife, and I wanted to support her. Yeah. I'm a father, and I'm her husband, and I want to do what I can to support her. But I do think that that time in the Mass had a profound effect on my will eventually, the graces that came from it. There was great power to that.

But I did try to make it work. I remember when you and I spoke on the phone, and I don't know where you are in your timeline here, but you had made the decision to quit. And you said to me, let me put it this way. You said, if the Eucharist is not truly the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ, I'm making the biggest mistake of my life. Yes.

How I put it was, if the Eucharist is just a symbol, then what I am doing is the stupidest decision I have ever made. But if Jesus is truly present in the Eucharist, then what I've doing is the stupidest decision I have ever made. But if Jesus is truly present in the Eucharist, then what I've done is not stupid, it's actually rational. And that compelled me to do this. But there were other circumstances that were a part, there were steps along the way. I can remember after my Marian consecration,

I came across the ministry of Gabriel Castillo. And I saw him and I was like, well, this is a guy who is as on fire for our lady than I am. And then he started speaking about praying the full rosary. And I remember even De Montfort started speaking about the full rosary being the three full rosaries, 15 decades. I was like, wow, this is amazing. Maybe I should start doing that. And I can remember this was about a year later. I reached out to him and wanted to help him in some way. And so he's one person who said on his podcast.

And let's offer him a shout out. I believe his YouTube channel is called Gabriel After Hours. Gabi After Hours. It's also Truth Faith TV. He's doing great work. People can go check him out. All right. Everybody needs to check him out. And so I remember he was doing it. He just started this podcast called The Children of Mary. And I remember I reached out to him to see how I could help him in some way. And then he gave me a shout out anonymously on his podcast. But I can remember he said, and I think he was speaking to me, although maybe I'm wrong. He was just like, do God's will, do God's will. You've got to do God's will. Just do God's will and trust Jesus. And that went right to my soul.

So that's one piece. Then I read a series of books by Father Kauth, Matthew Kauth, who is the rector, I believe is what is called at the St. Joseph's Seminary in Mount Holly. Okay. I'm not sure. I'm not familiar with them. Anyway, brilliant. And I came across two of his books, one on the sacraments. So this is summer of 2020, okay? So I converted in 2021. This is the summer of 2020.

I came across a couple of his books. One was on friendship, Thomas Aquinas and friendship. The other one was on the sacraments. And that had a grab me by the lapels quality. And I was like, you know, I can't teach some of this. This is good stuff, but I can't say some of what I'd like to say. And so those two things combined that about the time fall came up, fall of 2020, I realized I've got to do this.

Oh, let me back up. Gabriel also said one other thing. He quoted Mother Angelica. I'm not really familiar with Mother Angelica, but he says that faith means having one foot in the air, one foot on the ground with a queasy feeling in your stomach. And I think what I came to the conclusion was, I believe the Lord, I believe I thought the Lord was going to show me the way. Okay. If you want to be united to me in the Eucharist, then the Lord's just going to show me the way. Okay? If you want to be united to me in the Eucharist,

then the Lord's just going to open that path. What I came to realize, and it still took my breath away, was, no, I think I got to take that step. And then as my foot is falling, the path will open up. Wow.

And, but I never really announced this. You know, I was very, I think after my experience, uh, it was a tumultuous time for me in that ministry context. I did not want to add more fuel to the fire. And honestly, up until about January or February, I was like, am I crazy? I mean, is this really going to happen? Am I going to do this? But I made that decision that, yes, this is going to be the year that my life is going to have to change. I want to be able to talk about the Eucharist the way I should.

I want to talk about Mary the way I should. I want to. about Mary the way I should. I want to. And in many ways, Matt, my conversion was really through Mary. I do think that it was the Virgin Mary who was calling me and I had to do it. So there we are. So Shane, how did you make the decision and how did you, I mean, you told us how you made the decision, but how did you announce it? What was that like? I did not make an official announcement. So what ended up happening was two things. I think for the most part, the church that I serve, they realized it was a bad fit, as I realized it was a bad fit. And so it was an independent decision and it was announced that we're parting ways. It was announced that we're parting ways. And I was eligible for a sabbatical. I'd been serving as an elder for a number of

years and I was eligible for a sabbatical. So I took a sabbatical because I needed that time because my life was about to change. And I was afraid, what am I going to do now for the rest of my life? Because it's not like I had a plan. It's not like I had done some job hunting and I knew this was, I just knew that I could no longer be a United Methodist. Yeah. Yeah. That really does take tremendous courage. It's one thing to make a decision where you see all of the benefits and none of the negatives, but you have a family, how, what are you going to do with health insurance? How are you going to make an income? I mean, all of that stuff. Yes. And I did not know what that was going to look like. So I left that congregation in February, I believe, about the end of February,

and had no idea what I was going to do. I was just seeing, you know, doom. And I saw a couple of positions, and I applied for them just for the sake of doing it. One was a director of evangelization at a parish about 40 minute drive from where I was living at the time. And I'm still living there. And I remember when I applied for it, I thought there is no way they are going to hire someone who has just left the Protestant church. But I got to know the priest. His name is Father Lucas Rossi. Wonderful. I mean, we just became fast friends, and he hired me. They hired me. So I am now the director of evangelization at St. Michael Gastonia.

See, this is what the Catholic church needs. It needs Protestants bringing in their beautiful gift of evangelizing. So bring your gifts in with you to the church. Yes. And some of that zeal. And so I pray that I will do my best for that congregation. What's interesting is that it's the very parish where about a block away, I grew up in a house about a block away from that parish. Although I had friends of mine in childhood who went to the parish, but I played never really, I played on the campus as a child, but I'm like, I'm in my old neighborhood now. This is crazy. Full circle.

Yeah, complete, you know, complete full circle. So what have some of the reactions been from your congregants and then maybe some of your friends from seminary, other Protestant pastors? Most of the Protestant pastors have been in full support. Some of them said, well, we saw this coming. What do you think is going to happen to Shane? I think he's going Rome. Before I even made that announcement, he's going Rome.

And most people have been in support. There were a couple of comments that hurt me so the they were just implying that I was never honest or maybe I was having kind of a fair and a thing you know like you never really loved us Oh an affair in a metaphorical sense yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that was hurtful. But I also realized that this will be the price of converting. I will be misunderstood. As a matter of fact, I believe Father Rossi, my priest, said as much that not everybody's going to be, oh, well, this makes total sense and we're of understanding. There are going to be some who are curious about this. But I just have to know the truth for myself that as I was a United Methodist pastor, I loved the people I served.

I tried to be the best pastor I could, and there was no nefarious hocus-pocus happening in the background. I'm currently in touch with the pastor of a megachurch in Europe. I won't say what country. I don't want to out him. He is currently wrestling. Do I become Catholic? You know, he probably has similar thoughts to what you had. Maybe just grow where you're planted.

And this is, I don't want to rock the boat. And this is fine. I don't need to become Catholic. What advice do you have to Protestant pastors or Protestants in leadership? Maybe they're even running YouTube channels, right? They've made a kind of career doing the thing, and they're really nervous about it. What would your advice be? My advice could only be the questions that was asked me was,

what do you think is really happening when you consecrate the sacraments? I'm talking to pastors. What do you think is happening? What do you do about it? If you've already come to the realization that there is mortal sin and there's venial sin, and the Protestant church by and large does not espouse that, what do you do with that? What do you do about the sacraments? What do you do about sola scriptura if this pastor is in a tradition that espouses it

and you come to the realization that that's actually not true and the scriptures themselves don't support sola scriptura. I would ask those kinds of questions, but in a gentle way with sympathy, because it's just, pardon my French, damn hard to do it. And because especially if you are married with children and you want to provide for them. Especially if you are married with children and you want to provide for them. And then I would say throw yourself at the feet of St. Joseph, the husband who also had to provide for his family. And really get to know St. Joseph. Don't be afraid because he will find a way for you.

Excellent. Well, here's what we want to do. We're going to take a quick break. When we come back, I've got a bunch of questions from my patrons that I want to ask you. Sound good? That sounds great. All right. Thanks a lot, Shane.

Thank you. All right. I want to say thank you to Ethos Logos Investments for supporting this show, elinvestments.net slash pints. I guess when I was a bit younger, I thought that investing was something that only rich people did, or old people did, or rich old people did. I didn't realize it was something that I should be looking into as well. When I began looking into it, I realized I don't want to invest in companies that are doing immoral things.

That's where Ethos Logos Investments comes in. They were founded to work with individuals and institutions within the United States that seek to infuse their morals into their investment portfolio, with portfolios that adhere to the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops' Responsible Investing Guidelines. You can be sure that you aren't profiting from intrinsic evils like abortion, embryonic stem cell research, pornography, or human trafficking. Please go check them out. Ethos Logos Investments is what they're called, elinvestments.net slash pints. There's a link in the description below,

elinvestments.net slash pints. For employers, they offer socially responsible and catholic 401k and 403b options as well so yeah go check them out elinvestments.net slash pints securities offered through securities america inc member finra sipic ethos logos investments and securities america are separate entities, advisory services offered through Securities America Advisors Incorporated. Yes. The second group I want to thank is Halo. Halo, H-A-L-L-O-W dot com slash Matt Fradd. Halo dot com slash Matt Fradd. Halo is a fantastic app that will help you to pray and meditate.

It's not like new age mindfulness apps that lead into wrong ways of thinking. This is 100% Catholic and it's super sophisticated. If you go to hallow.com slash Matt Fradd and sign up there, you'll get a few months for free before deciding if you want to pay a minimal amount every month to have access to their entire app. Now you can download the app right now and you'll get access to certain things for free. So be sure to check that out if you want to pay a minimal amount every month to have access to their entire app. Now, you can download the app right now and you'll get access to certain things for free. So be sure to check that out if you just want to play around with it and see what they have to offer. But if you want access to everything that they have, like sleep stories and Bible studies and all sorts of beautiful things like that, you have to pay a certain amount every month to get access to that. If you want access to everything for a few months, just go to hallo.com slash Matt Fradd.

hallo.com slash Matt Fradd and sign up there. Thanks. And we're live. All right. This has been fabulous. Thank you so much for sharing your story with me

and being really... And I want to apologize in advance for any loss of subscribers as a result of my interview. Are you kidding? No, no, no, no. I mean, I know you're joking, but I'm still not going to play along. It was just a beautiful story.

And yeah, I'm very grateful. I feel like I've left out so much. But thank you. Thank you. Yeah. What's this going to be like for you? Because you said before we jumped in here, you said you don't really want to do this. It's not like you really want to share your story on a podcast.

No, I'm much more reserved. Everybody thinks that, well, you're a pastor, you're a preacher, that you clearly like to be in the spotlight, the public eye. No, actually I don't. And I'm exhausted by it. And even when I was a preacher, and this came as a surprise to parishioners and even my colleagues that I found preaching, I loved preparing for it. I loved it. You know, I think it was Thomas Aquinas who says that the only thing greater than contemplation is sharing the fruits of your contemplation. I loved preparing and getting the fruit basket together. That's a terrible analogy and sharing that. But I found preaching to be a burden. It was hard. I mean, I would sit there and think, gosh, I'm the only one in this entire building that's called to stand up and speak this

morning. And then you put your heart and soul into it and you've touched some people, but then you also have, you know, there's some days you just hit a foul ball or, you know, or those days where you think you're at your best and you have just, I mean, it's as if the incarnate Lord has walked right down the aisle of the community. And then the reaction is, thank you for that. Have a good day. I'm like, is that what happened to the Lord? The Sermon on the Mount? Hey, nice talk.

He's changed history. And you just know some senior came up to him afterwards and said, thank you for that. That was lovely. I hope you have a great day. I want you to know my so- up to him afterwards and said, thank you for that. That was lovely. I hope you have a great day. I want you to know my so-and-so is having surgery. I didn't anyway. But anyway, that's just the life of it. But I do miss that part.

I want to let our patrons know if they go over to patreon.com slash Matt Fradd, they can put their question here for not Pastor Shane. Is that how? Yeah. We should shout out, we had a $50 Super Chat from Ewa. Ah, $50 Super Chat. That was very kind. What was their name?

It was the letter E and then, excuse me, Wa. Ewa. All right, cool. And then also there's a Beth Wright in chat. Beth Wright, yeah. What did she say? Who's saying that she and her husband

are an RCIA right now. What? Did you know that? Okay, husband are in RCIA right now. What? Did you know that? Okay, so for those who didn't hear that, Beth Wright and her husband are now in RCIA because of you, they said. You know who this is? Well, I'm just an instrument, right? I'm just an instrument. Yes, I do.

I do. They're wonderful people. They were parishioners of mine in a former community that I served. I never did finish my – I'm an introvert. I'm actually an introvert. And most people don't believe it. Yeah, I think I am too. Yeah.

Yeah. I like good conversations with a few people, but... Yeah. I would not... It took me... I just got on Facebook for the first time last year, and I still don't post all that much. I'm like, ah.

It's very difficult for me, and I would love to know why. I think it comes to my childhood, but I would never pursue something like this. Well, I'm grateful because it is undoubtedly a blessing to many people. So thank you. Colin Carr, thanks for being a patron, Colin. He says, what aspects of your Protestant heritage slash pastoral experience do you hope to bring into the Catholic community? What are the things that Catholics could stand to gain and or learn from our Protestant brothers and sisters? Okay.

I think that Catholics should not be afraid to say they have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Amen. That's not a Protestant thing. And Father Rossi, if you're listening, I'm going to quote you, my friend, but he was preaching on the feast of Mary Magdalene and about her love and her devotion. And he just said, can we stop saying that having a personal devoted relationship to Jesus is a Billy Graham thing? Catholics came up with, this is a Catholic thing. I think that, and I think a zeal for the scriptures,

you know, but that's a Vatican II desire. And you read the Vatican II says we want Catholics to be, to know the scriptures. And I do think, so that's an element of my Protestant background that we can bring to this. But as a Methodist, see, we weren't just Bible alone. We were Scripture and tradition as well. Shane Goldsworthy, thanks for being a patron, says, Why Catholic and not Eastern Orthodox? I thought about that. I think it would come down to when you look at Orthodoxy, they seem to be very ethnic.

You know, you have Russian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox. Everything seems to be centered more around nationality or ethnicity. ethnic. You know, you have Russian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, everything seems to be centered more around nationality or ethnicity. Maybe I'm getting the language wrong. Whereas Catholicism, to me, it was more appealing because it encompasses the globe. And that did have an impression on me. I had a miserable experience in that first Mass that I attended, but I do remember looking around saying, wow, it's very diverse here. Not to say that Protestantism can't be because there are congregations that are very diverse. But at the time for me, that was striking. That's not something I was accustomed to.

Jill says, good morning. I observe Protestants evaluating typology and the church fathers through the lens of their faith traditions, which makes the truths of the Catholic Church hard to see. How did you begin to see past your own scriptural lens? So if I can just sort of put a bit of a spin on this, I have heard Protestants say things like, well, I mean, you can get anything out of the Church Fathers. Like if you're Protestant, you can read Protestant things in the Church Fathers. I do not agree with that at all.

No, I would agree, especially even the letters of Ignatius of Antioch when he talks about those who already disbelieve that it's truly the body and blood of Christ in the Eucharist. That's pretty firm on that as well. And, of course, that was a part of my conversion. That's when I realized, yeah, it's just really him. But did you find yourself trying to read your Protestant traditions into the church fathers? No, I never came to it that way.

I actually tried my best to submit myself to them and to learn from them. But again, for the non-Methodists who are Protestant, that's what John Wesley, that was his vision, is that we would get to know the Protestants. You know, this is something perhaps that we Catholics need to do a better job of. And that's not viewing our Protestant brothers and sisters as a sort of monolithic, theologically universal sort of group. It's very diverse. The people I serve, they love Jesus. They love the Lord and God bless them for that. And they want to learn and they want to learn more. So I was never resisted, like as I said, when I would bring to them some of the great treasures of the Catholic faith.

And even in pastoral settings, can we pray to the saints? Well, of course. Let me tell you why. At least in my experience, the Methodists that I serve are very open to many things. Mason Lindemuth?

Lindenmuth? Liden? Okay, I'm sorry. I should just stop reading last names, but thanks for being a patron. Mason says, My father is non-denominational Christian and has been married to my mother for 21 years now. We are using means of conversion, such as the green scapula and rosary, but he doesn't come to us with many questions and carries the rosary around like a good luck charm. Is there any advice you can give for evangelizing and getting people to open

up and consider the church? Embrace your own particularity. I think the best way to evangelize someone is not to try to overtly evangelize them. You be the Catholic you believe God has called you to be, and it will be beautiful, and that beauty will attract that person, you hope, by grace to the truth of the Catholic faith. And then learn your own. Learn why you do what you do. But see, if you're going to—one thing I want the Catholics to understand, and that I even had to learn in my zeal.

So if you want to help a Protestant understand why we should have the Blessed Virgin Mary in our devotional life, which, by the way, it should not be just a Catholic thing. I would even say to my Protestant brothers and sisters who are listening, it needs to be your thing, too, even if you remain a Protestant. And maybe we can get into that. Don't start, though, with St. Maximilian Kolbe's pneumatology. Don't start there. Be gentle.

I mean, you've got to root it in the scriptures. I see the chat there. We have a super chat from Austin Decker. Thanks, mate. He says, Shane, Matt, what advice would you give to Protestant pastors who want to convert, but are concerned about finding income for their family? What jobs should they look for and apply for after converting? Well, let me first preface that. Excuse me. All my former parishioners, if they're watching, they know that I'm waving my arms and I just hit the microphone.

That would be normal for them. Here's what I should say. say, a Protestant clergy like me will not convert until the desire to be in union through Christ and the Eucharist exceeds the fear of the sacrifices involved. You have to allow them to get to that point. I had to get to that point where my desire and love exceeded my fear. At that point, I was able to convert. That is excellent advice, yeah. And just, yeah, I mean, that's the only way to do it. That's the only way they're going to allow you.

Arguments are not going to work. They're going to have to grow in charity. This is true of many human things. If I wake up at six in the morning because I've set my alarm because I want to go surfing, say, as I used to in San Diego, my desire to surf has to outweigh my fear of getting cold or getting up early. And if it doesn't exceed that fear, I'll just hit snooze or I'll pull the plug out of the wall. Yes. And when we had another, we had the pastor of a parish, the parish that I attended along with my wife, and she still attends there.

He visited with us. And it's so funny. We burnt all the food. I mean, it was just, the food was, it was a disaster. But I remember having a conversation with him and he helped me realize that, you know, Shane, God is not going to make the exception for you, by which he meant, like, it's not going to consider the littlest of the field. God provides for everybody.

But as far as you're concerned, Shane, I guess you're on your own. God's going to forget about you. You have to trust that the Lord will provide. But you also have to be willing that it's going to look differently. You have to accept that cross. provide, but you also have to be willing that it's going to look differently. You have to accept that cross. I had to come to the point where, yes, the part of the job that I do, the vocation I do, like preaching, that's over. But the Lord will give me a different pulpit. We all have different pulpits. Mine is still going to be there. It's just going to be different. And just trust that

the Lord will still give you a pulpit. It's just going to look different. Travis France, thanks for being a patron, Travis. He says, I'm a former Protestant myself. What has been the most difficult thing to adjust to in the Catholic Church for yourself? What was the most difficult thing for your family to adjust to? Honestly, there's not been anything difficult. When I became Catholic and started attending the masses as a Catholic, it was the most natural thing in the world for me. And I think some of that is because I was becoming more and more conversant with some

of the cultural aspects. Now, I guess if you back up all the way, as I was fresh green, I had knew nothing about Catholicism and attending my first Mass, yeah, it's strange. What I had to get used to was the devotions everywhere. There's a devotion for everything and for every circumstance. I just found out there's a patron saint of pierogies the other day. That took me a little time. But if you begin to understand that heaven and earth overlap in biblical cosmology, they're not separated, then of course all these people and saints with their wild and crazy personalities are still among us. Okay, I really like this question, so I'm going to ask it and then I'm going to kind of add some meat to it.

T says, as a convert, I ask this earnestly, how do you know your Catholicism is really true and not just another phase? I think the reason this is a good question is because we're always excited and passionate about a new phase. Catholics do this with devotions. They get hooked on the rosary, and then they get bored with that, and they pick up a different devotion. They get very passionate about that, and they get bored with that, and they go on to something else. I know of Protestants who perhaps become Eastern Catholics, and that's a bit of a phase for them, and that wears off, and then they become Orthodox, and then they become an old Russian believer because that's even more intense. How do you know this isn't just a phase? Well, I think the only response is the only reason to be Catholic is because you believe it's true. And truth is Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ is truly present in the Catholic

Church that's why I stay but that doesn't mean they're not things that are not going to frustrate you you know I I'm invoking for instance st. Therese of Lisieux you know she became that Carmelite nun at 15 well she knew going in that they're gonna be some things that drive her crazy but she knew that going in it wasn't a shock to her when she was in the convent, and she was able to accept that. But if Christ is truly present in the Eucharist, and he is truth itself, that's why I believe it's true. Actually, that's a good point, because it felt like back in the Benedict or John Paul II days, Catholics would brag a lot about all this unity that we have. But if Catholic YouTube is any

indicator, we don't seem terribly united all the time. What's it been like for you coming into the church, seeing these divisions within the Catholic church? And I might be using that word division loosely. I'm not saying people are schismatic necessarily or apostatizing, but... I am bothered by it.

Certainly the scandals of recent years had an effect on me. But I think I just understand that. I hate to sound so flippant, but at some point we have to give the Lord some credit for the disasters because he's the one who calls sinners to himself. What do you expect? That's a beautiful way. Really, he calls sinners, and of course, there's going to be some issues. I mean, Judas was one of his apostles. So I've not been scandalized by any of that. Okay. Let's see here. Justin McGee, thanks for being a patron, Justin, says, what was the first—well, maybe you've already addressed this, so feel free. We can move to the next one, or you can recircle it. What was the first epiphany you had that forced you to acknowledge that, despite your other objections, the Catholic Church must be true?

For me, it was the reality of the papacy. Do you have any ongoing doctrinal struggles, and if not, which was the hardest to overcome? No, for me, it was the real presence in the Eucharist, John 6, and realizing that the Lord, as many of the Catholics already know, was not speaking metaphorically. He was speaking literally so much so that it scandalized the people to whom he was speaking, and he did not water down that language. And then you go from there to 1 Corinthians, where if you're not discerning the body, you're eating and drinking damnation to yourself. Why would a symbol do that? And then seeing Ignatius of Antioch and some of

the early church fathers espousing that. I did think as a seminarian that transubstantiation was something formulated at the Council of Trent. But really what they were doing, as you know, was just articulating what was already a part of the tradition. Patron Jacob Wagner says, Theologically and devotionally, what part of Protestantism are you most concerned about leaving behind? Or do you feel like there's anything you're leaving behind? Well, the people, of course.

But if he's talking about... Doctrinally. Devotionally. I think it's just the Methodist, speaking as a former Methodist, the idea of being madly in love with Jesus, being totally united. But that's a Catholic doctrine as well. So I can't really think of anything off the top of my head. Because, again, there's a lot of similarities.

But when you get down into the nitty gritty, you realize, oh, these are profoundly different. Like I believed at the time that in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist as a Methodist, but then I'm like, well, what does real presence really mean? He's not really there to the extent that you can adore the elements. Well, then is that really there? So I can't think of anything. Sorry about that.

No, I mean, I often hear Protestants say that when they become Catholic, they feel like they're just entering this larger world, that in a sense nothing has to be left behind, except for heretical beliefs, but the whole thing's brought with you. Well, that's a good way, and I don't know who said it, but the Catholics never threw anything out of the attic. Yeah. Oh, you know, and I need to also say this.

Another profound influence on me in this conversion was Bishop Robert Barron in the Word on Fire ministry. So I wanted to make sure that that's a part of that. Tell us how. Well, I ended up coming across a copy of his book, To Light a Fire. I believe that's the name of it. I'm not familiar. And I'm like, I've never heard of this person, but I like what he's saying.

And so then that led me to you two because it was mentioned over and over again. And his approach and his intellectual appeal and his eloquence, his videos really had an effect on me. And then that drew me in as well. So the Word on Fire ministry is doing great things. And I realize now as a Catholic, there are some Catholics who have criticisms of it, but who doesn't have criticism to level against something? But keep, Bishop Barron, keep doing what you're doing. Thank you. Let's see. Bradley Grusso says, my father is a retired Methodist pastor and is quite skeptical and worried about me in my process of my Catholic conversion. What advice would you have for me when talking to him? process of my Catholic conversion, what advice would you have for me when talking to him?

I would let him ask the questions. You just be ready to answer them. Again, don't try to proselytize so much. I mean, I think the best evangelization happens in relationship and without coercion. You know, arguments. I just don't think arguments are necessarily—not many people convert because of arguments. Over a period of time, maybe. But let the Holy Spirit develop curiosity in your father and let him ask you some questions. But you, yourself, you be an on-fire Catholic, and you'll set somebody else on fire. Patron DKV says, did any friends or people of your Methodist congregation

convert along with you? No, other than the two who have not yet converted. No one that I know of has converted. I did not shout from the rooftops that I'm becoming Catholic, like I said. But those who know me, I did have intimate friends. They're not surprised by it. They were not surprised by any of this and wished me well. Elliot Brubaker says, did the conflict and confusion in the church give you pause or

cause you to question your decision to convert? You've addressed that, but if you want to take another one. No, I would say that the turmoil in the tradition made me realize that I would have to at some point. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Fantastic.

Man, this has been great. Almost 800 people watching. So there you go. I love that you said like the Lord will give you another platform. No. Here we are, you know. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

So what's next? I don't know. I mean, it's whatever the Lord wants at this point. I'm going to just work as hard for the parish as the director of evangelization. We've got some new things happening there, the new year, and getting to know them, serving with Father Rossi, and just to be a committed Catholic. I wonder if the Lord's not calling you to help assist your brothers and sisters

in Protestant denominations. I don't know. I would love to be a part of that in some way to help people who are starting to become convinced of Catholicism to be that bridge. But you're still going to be dealing with the living situation, which again, the desire to convert, the desire to be Catholic

in union with the Lord of the Eucharist has to exceed your fears. You know, I do think that sometimes Catholics aren't terribly sympathetic to just how difficult it is to convert. You know, we say things like, yeah, it's true. Just do it. Like, yeah, but I've got a family and this is how I feed them. And that's an obstacle. I remember thinking to myself, Lord, why is this got to happen to me? I would love to be able to convert without having to make my family suffer in any way. I don't want them to have to bear the consequence of this. But then I think, well, that's a silly thing to say in many ways.

I am a father, and sometimes parents need to let their children suffer for their convictions. parents need to let their children suffer for their convictions. You know, like the Jews suffered, you know, for their convictions. And they raised children to have to suffer their convictions. So I look at myself as one of those. But they have not really suffered. I mean, God has been faithful. Yeah. Well, look, this has been a pleasure.

Thank you kindly for coming on the show. Someone wrote, they said, start a podcast, bro. I'll subscribe. Well, thank you, everybody. And thanks for listening. All right. Cheers. Thanks a lot.

God bless.