Pints With Aquinas - Real Love for the Poor w/ Bob Lesnefsky

Episode Date: December 21, 2021

Local legend Bob Lesnefsky and I chat about tattoos, the hidden good and other side of Catholic celebrity, and learning to truly love and be with the poor. Dirty Vagabond Ministries: https://www.vagabondmissions.com/ 🍻 Support Pints Directly (THANK YOU!): https://www.patreon.com/mattfradd 💪 Exodus 90: https://exodus90.com/matt/ 🙏 Hallow: http://Hallow.com/mattfradd

Hey, Matt Fradd here. Welcome to Pints with Aquinas. If this show has been a blessing to you, please consider supporting us directly at pints with aquinas.com slash give or at patreon.com slash Matt Fradd. Any dollar amount would be a blessing to us. Thank you so much for considering. Nice to have you. Hey, nice to be here. Finally, bro. Yeah. So two things people should know about you before they know anything else is that you made this table. I did. Yeah. Yeah I uh You asked me to make it you gave me 36 hours I instantly regretted saying yes, and then the measurements you gave me were some bizarre like seven feet wide by nine feet long and I was just stressing out about

getting it done and and then you came over with your camera but to your fashion guy and he was like this won't work and and then we had a try we love cameras in case that felt like that was a complete he was like no this will not work you know it was something like that yeah yeah that's right it was probably double the size yeah it was it was big and then you're sweat into this and then I came over and he was like take three more off and why does he sound like that because you you kept calling him your fashion guy weird okay'm not trying to do a feminine, I'm trying to do weird. Okay. Trying to do weird. You know, he's like a weird like stylish guy. He's a stylish guy.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That just seems weird to you because you're stylish but in more of a gangster kind of way. Yeah, yeah, thank you. Yeah, you're welcome. I think that's a fair assessment. And then once I got here after cutting it twice, I had to cut it again to like get it out of the elevator or to get it in here or something. I was in here with a freaking hand saw, duct taping it together. I'm amazed it's still standing, but it still needs to be touched up a little bit.

It is a good table, bro. It's a great table. People always say it's a good table. I bet they do, bro. Now, your point, speaking about things that won't interest anybody, but it interests me, your point was really good that when people try to make something look antique, they make, you say it. They make them say it.

Well, yeah, it's just like, I think sometimes, when you get on Etsy or that kind of stuff, which I like, I'm a fan of, but sometimes it's just like every piece is distressed equally and it just looks cheesy. Not to say that this doesn't look cheesy, someone could probably criticize this table, but really there's like with certain sections

that are like super worn down or banged up and others that aren't. So when I was banging this up, since I had 36 hours to not find a real reclaimed wood, I burn it, I had a bag full of chains, a bag full of nails, I had an axe, I just tried to bang it up you know hard in spots and yeah got it done it looks good yeah the other thing is

you gave me this first-class relic of Thomas Aquinas I did and I told you one thing when I gave it to you is like all I want is to be famous I want to be on the show yeah you promised me within a week I'll be on the show and then here's the relics later five months months later, six months later. It's shameful, but no yeah, yeah guys got the relic from a Russian Orthodox priest who this wasn't the first time he gave us a relic in fact a couple years ago he said he's like I want to give you guys some relics and he's like you have a pick you get of Thomas Aquinas or St. Teresa a little flower. Yeah, and it was a big choice, you know

But to me, you know, I I thought the less pretentious choice would be st. Teresa little flower. Okay That's why I left this one for you Let I missed it what that's pretentious like I thought like having I missed it. What that's pretentious. Like I thought like having Anyway, no, I picked St. Teresa little flower cuz like we're a missionary family and she was missionary So he gave you both of them? No, he gave it So I got to St. Teresa little flower and that's how I knew he had Thomas Aquinas Okay, so then like when you were moving here and you were like, oh, it's my dream to get Thomas Aquinas We were like we should have father Theo for the

Thomas Aquinas yeah, so he told him about you, and he's like you know he's an old guy and Honestly, he's these sick old man not sick like he's pervert or something, but like he's just old And he's like always want to get rid of his stuff and and so we told him about you He's like oh, I would love that, you know, so he yeah He was he was all about you wanted to do it anonymously. Isn't that right? Yeah. Well, I guess he's not anonymous anymore We haven't said he's just told them. Yeah, the O Chomsky father. Thank you father No, yeah, he's just a sweet sweet guy he's always given stuff like monasteries Western Saints he gives away or I given stuff like monasteries Western Saints he gives away or I don't know how he has so many like crosses and relics and stuff like that but people have

given them to him and he'd like loves to give stuff away like he like he would come over our house and be like he'd love to give us like groceries you know but then other thing he'd be like I have this old wheelbarrow I want to give to you and I was like yeah I don't want it, I do. I wanted it man I'm like I'll take it there, you know, and So he's just like that and the relic is just another thing man. He's a he's a sweet old man I was in Pittsburgh at the Holy Trinity Ukrainian Catholic Church and somebody pointed out that they knew that priest and they spoke Really highly of him. Well, I was in the Scott's library walking around Scott Hahn and I said to him Yeah, cuz okay back up I was in Scott's library walking around, Scott Hahn, and I said to him,

yeah, okay, back up. I got a Therese of Lisieux first-class relic, and the way I got it was thus. I was chatting with a priest at a parish I was about to speak at, and he said, hey, I just got like a bunch of relics, first-class relics in, and for those Protestants who are watching right now,

we're talking about like bone, fragments of bone from saints, which is weird, right? As Catholics we like respect the body until you're dead and then we throw you in the chipper and then disperse you around the world in little gold things. Bit weird. So he said he got all these relics in and I've been wanting a relic and I'm like, how come all these Catholics I know have first class relics and I don't have a first class relic?

So he said I got all these relics in I just looked at him I went give me one and he went okay sweet. That's how you do it So I just started to become a little bit more bold in my relic seeking So I was in Scott's library and I'm like, hey, you know anybody who'd have a first-class relic of Thomas Aquinas I could have and he's like I wouldn't trust or respect the man who would part with us Before and I always think that Scott on doesn't respect me. Did you tell him I gave you the no because this is before okay? I was looking for don't know. Yes. I'm sure he doesn't watch this show But anyway, so what happened was you came over to my house and you had an envelope and you gave me this thing

Because you said you had something you wanted to give to me and my wife said you're going to love this thing. I don't know what this thing could possibly be. What things were you thinking it could be? I don't know because she said you are going to love it. And I thought I don't think Bob has anything he could give me that I'd be that excited about. Yeah. Wow.

That's a backhanded insult. So he gave me an envelope and I was feeling it. I thought this is a frigging beer top. It's a bottle top. Yeah, that's a good guess. That's what it felt like. I'm like, okay, I guess maybe it's like an Australian beer top and my wife thought that this would have

sentimental value. So that's what I'm thinking as I open this envelope and pull it out. I'm thinking, oh thanks, Bob, this is great. And I pull it out and it's a first class relic of Thomas Aquinas. I don't think I could speak for about a minute. I was so, it was really kind of you. And then we have the document and the land all like full day.

Yeah, I have it right there. That's still in the envelope, yeah. Envelope, envelope. I say envelope. Yeah, I think in Australia they say envelope. I get confused these days. Well, yeah, I don't know. I think I say envelope.

It's a good question, actually. But once I ask you, you forget. Then I know I'm gonna think about it all day Gonna beat myself up about the answer to this later Stupid I can't believe I said envelope But uh, anyway, so thanks so much for that. Yeah, man. I it's good to see it here in that cool Like where'd you get that reliquary? I got that reliquary. Um, actually I have a Speaking of first-class relics. Actually, I have a speaking of first class relics.

This was this was a terrible thing happened. So I used to work for a bloke who runs a ministry called. Stewardship, a mission of faith, OK, and he was kind enough to give me a first class relic of Padre Pio, and it came with that reliquary. By the way, we no longer have any Protestants watching this show. Yeah. It's been like 10 minutes and there's no way. I don't think you ever had any, but it's good to pretend.

So anyway, so he gives this to me and I have to fly home with it. So I don't know what to do with it. I wanted to be careful with it, obviously. So I took the relic out in the little circular thing, wrapped it in bubble wrap and I got home and I unwrap it and the fragment of bone is no longer on it. Bro. Now I know people, they'll, they'll carry their first class relics around with them yeah but for some reason it got dislodged from the glue or whatever that's in on the thing so what do you do here's what do you do like you're in a predicament now

either you leave it as is because it's sealed with wax to show its authenticity in the back right so do i just keep it like that with the seal on and say, well, I know you can't see it. It's in there somewhere. Or do you cut it open and go looking for it? What do you do? I think I would have left it to. Right. I should have done that. But you cut it open. I cut it open. I don't know why I did it. I don't think it mattered. It does to dust, right? Man, it's dust somewhere now. So I cut it open and I'm going through,

but it's kind of cool to touch Padre Pio's bone. I was thinking that too. And I think I found it and I tried to put it back on. And then I shut it up again. So I have Padre Pio. You still have it. Yeah, I still have it. But it's cut open in the back.

All's well that ends well. Anyway, that's how I got the relic. I think everyone's got a Padre Pio. I. I think everyone's got like a Padre Pio. I feel like the most common relic is Padre Pio. Yeah. Everyone's like I got a piece of a glove or something that was touched to a piece of a glove or something like that. Yeah.

Yeah. Not that I mean Padre Pio is cool but. Remember when I came over to your house and you had that Native American image? Yes. And I'm like who's this? Why'd you make the face like you don't like any of Americans that's not what I said I love Native Americans listen Bob I am an immigrant to this country you have no idea what it's like

to be me okay so in the system of oppressed people short yeah I am above Native Americans but you're above me okay all right white American this so anyway I asked like what's this Native American image, and you said it was a saint something yeah, I probably probably say it was seen Kateri take away that yeah, I don't know but apparently Turns out you got it from TK max yeah, no not the first of us TJ max Okay in Ireland. It's TK max really funny Wow that's so funny I guess they, seriously, because we used to live in Ireland.

I didn't get it from TK Maxx for the record. I printed it off at work on Franciscan's budget. I got it off of Google. So I, yeah. But yeah, yeah, that was, hey, that was a cool image. Didn't you, when you walked in, you were like, that looks cool. That's a great image, I love it, yeah. I love Native American imagery. Yeah. Yeah. Good imagery yeah yeah good yeah I'm not opposed to it I love you

know that's not what your face said your face like this it's yeah good all right yeah yeah no I appreciate you noticing all right let's do it tattoos okay how many tattoos do you have? Well, I wanna just, before I get into that, you have a tattoo, right? I know you don't like to show underneath your cashmere outfit, but you do have a tattoo. I have a tattoo.

So anything you say will have to be taken in perspective, context, to that tattoo. And I also know that back in the day, when you worked for Catholic Answers, we talked about this a little bit So I I feel like safe to disclose like any any information about tattoos because I know you have a tattoo Because I know you're in the club. I don't know how many tattoos I have. I really don't I have a lot of tattoos Well, and then you have all these little star things on your arm. Yeah, do those count?

I don't know, you know, but I have tattoos almost every day just to have Kate count them count stars. Yeah. Yeah, no everything I mean Kate you just you know, okay Suit and have her yeah, it's a good idea. Maybe we'll do that. Maybe it'll be a date night Yeah, we're gonna have to get the air conditioners out cuz it's gonna get hot if she does do that But yeah, I I don't know. I have a lot of tattoos and I'm always adding more, but I do, I love tattoos. So I work, most of my life has been working with inner city kids, and it's been a great

conversation piece to say nothing else, honestly, God. Like there's been so many times where I'm literally on the streets and I start conversation with someone or in a gas station or projects whatever and start to talk with someone about tattoos, you know, like and they Are tattoos as a I love when I have a friend from New Zealand. She always says tattoos. I love it But I yeah, I really like tattoos. It's funny because I got my first tattoo was my grandfather's name. And this is a good thing too, because I, you know, I've done a lot of youth ministry and sometimes you get some concerned parents

and they will say like, well, what am I going to, what am I going to say to my son who wants tattoos now? Because you have them. Wait, is this Cameron Batuzzi saying this to you? No, no, no, this is a concerned parent, which Cameron probably is a concerned parent. I'm sure he loves his kids. But anyway, they, and I always say, I didn't get my first tattoo, how old do you think it was I got my first tattoo? I would think in college.

25. Yeah, okay. After college, okay. So I was 25, I'm the oldest of my my three brothers or my two brothers three of us And I said I would wait till my youngest brother turned 18 and we'll get my grandfather's name And I was getting the name is in Philly where I'm from and the the woman who was tattooing me Said she's like these are pretty addictive like I You know, I got bad. I'll see you again and was like, I think I'm a one tattoo kind of a guy. That's what I said.

I think I'm a, but, and I don't think it's just said that they're addictive, it's just, this is permanent. I feel like I get addicted or passionate about anything I do. Like, you know, like I feel like if I'm into welding or gardening or table, it's like all I think about. You know, this just happens to be permanent. Do you typically though get into something very intensely

and then move on? Yes. And it's not like I won't, like for instance, tattoos I still like them, but I'll get, my daughter's boyfriend does tattoos now. And so he'll text me once in a while, you wanna do a tattoo tonight? I'll say sure, I mean they're're free he's just doing my legs I

don't care is that where he's done I'm just on your legs is any good he's pretty good yeah yeah you guys want to see one we could try here we go you've got to have is anyone ever put their leg on the first time someone's ever put their leg so like he has impressed with how flexible. Yeah. Thank you. So like this bulldog and stuff Yeah, he did all these like on my a lot of these on my leg here now The cool thing is he started I would like you to have that leg up for the entirety of the interview Well, maybe I will but I'm about to put the other one up on this side of the mic, bro, but He started doing first of all, look at these look at these socks

I didn't think I'd have to show I didn't think I'd have to show them on the podcast. But anyway, no, they're mine. I just got them as a Christmas gift yesterday. They're called Polar Degree or something like that. I'm impressed they fit within that shoe. I would think you'd have to get a size up. To be honest, they're tight. But anyway, what I was gonna say is he started doing

what was called stick and poke, which is like a prison tattoo You know you get a needle and sticking in some ink could be from ink from a pen or whatever and you do like this You just poke poke poke you're lying that cuz my feet stunk. Oh Sigas milk and less offensive, but anyway, so he started doing that point being in all of this is You know now it's it's not as much as something So he started doing that. Point being in all of this is, now it's not as much as something I think about all the time. I think when I was first getting tattoos,

and you're brushing your teeth or something, you're looking at your chest or your stomach or your arm, and you're like, oh, symmetry. I'd like to get something over here. I'd like to fill in this gap or be cool. And I was definitely much more obsessed with it then. Now it's like, it's still fun. I still like tattoos. I love when a college student, you know I work at Franciscan and when a college student shows me a new tattoo is fun to like, you know enter into that but it's

not something I I Necessarily like obsess about as much but it's it's permanent. Yeah, so it's like it doesn't matter. Yeah, I feel like tattoos It doesn't matter. Yeah, I feel like tattoos Stay with me here. I like your child's names. You never want to admit that it was a mistake That you'd get it you'd have a different name if you could do it all over again, you know It's like I think with tattoos everyone's like no and they have to talk about it Like it means a lot to them because it's permanent. Yeah, so is that or yeah, this was a mistake I don't think I would get that. I think I would have not. Well, here's the here's the problem is you should just get more. Like now, like I got a, you know, on New Year's Eve last year, I got a crazy looking cat holding

the knife. I thought it was funny. Yeah, but it doesn't matter. I have so many tattoos. It's just another, you know, it's just like a doodle, you know, on the temple. And so doodle on the temple, a doodle on the temple. And so- Doodle on the temple. A doodle on the temple. So maybe if you got a little crazy cat hole in the knife next to the- Next to that Marion image. Marion, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Maybe you'd be like, oh, I don't feel so bad about this one anymore. Now I feel bad about the cat hole in the knife. See what you mean. But- Is it possible, because you said in the beginning, you use symmetry, right? I think that's appropriate.

Like in the beginning, you wanna have it like that and then you just fill it in. But have you ever seen people have as many tattoos as you have, but it looks bad? In the sense of not symmetrical and out of place. If you go to the Toronto pool in the summer, if you live in the tri-state area, the Toronto, I tell anyone, like I know,

who's like around here, I say, before you get a tattoo, go to the Toronto, I tell anyone, like I know who's like around here, I say before you get a tattoo, go to the Toronto pool. Just so everybody knows, it's like 15 minutes from here. Because you go to the pool and there and you look around and you're like, and now this is someone with tattoos and I look at these people that are middle-aged like me and I think, oh my gosh, they look so horrible, dude. And then I think, I'm like, thank God my tattoos don't look like that, but then I think,

I mean, they're probably saying the same thing about me. So you gotta know one, no matter how cool you think your tattoo's gonna look, you're still gonna kinda look like that, unless you're like a model, or you're shredded, then it'll look cool whatever yet But when you go there like it's it's like the Tasmanian devil like bench-pressing next to like You know something in Chinese and right you know Bob wire. Yeah. Yeah, so yes

I think those look I mean, but honestly it gets to a certain point where it looks so bad that it almost looks awesome You know like it's it's I've been there too Like where I I have a friend used to work up at the university and he has a tattoo that he got He snuck out when he was 14. It's it's such a bad tattoo okay, so he's I don't put his name out there Bobby Aborn, but he he had a like a clover He had a clover, a four-leaf clover. Yeah, he's Irish. But he grew up in Boston, and he snuck,

it was still illegal in Massachusetts to get tattoos when he was a kid. Even in New York, it was illegal, DC, there were parts it was illegal in the 80s and 90s. And so he went to New Hampshire, they skipped school, he had a fake ID, he was 14, somehow they believe his is fake ID which shows you know how manly he is and

They him and his homeboys like they all decided to get The boys that was what they called himself. They were like a group of ruffians that the boys I think it has a Z or maybe has an S. I don't remember but it's like within the the the clover and He I don't remember but it's like within the the the clover and He Gets his tattoo the boys. Okay on on his arm and it looks so bad now. It's all it's all starting to deteriorate It's not like that. Well done, but and it's within tribal stuff that he got later and But the worst part is all his friends after he got it were like I'm not getting it like they all chicken out They all chicken out. So I told him now 25 years later a couple years ago. I'll say dude. I'll get it, we're like, I'm not getting it. Like they all chicken out. They all chicken out. So I told him now 25 years later, a couple of years ago, I'll say, dude, I'll get it.

You know? And so I went and we got it down the road here. Did he get another one? No, I just got the boys. I got the tattoo and he's like, I've been waiting 25 years for this, you know? But at that point, like that tattoo, the story was so epic and the,

like the craftsmanship was so bad that it's like cool. So I do think there's an arc where it's just so bad it becomes awesome. So to answer your original question, yes I've seen people with tons of tattoos that look bad. You know who I'm thinking of as our mate who we used to speak at the conference? Any hitman? No, no. Gosh, why is his name Escape Me?

He lives on a farm now. Oh, Chris Padgett. I love Chris Padgett. But you hate his sisters? No, I just love him. He is so beautiful. Yeah, but this is, he's the prime example. I don't know what I'm trying to say.

Before we get to the tattoo, just so I can try to finish this incoherent thought, whenever I'm around him, I feel like my mess is OK. You know what I mean? He's just a messy, beautiful guy. Yeah, no, he totally is. But you brought him up in the context of I was like, someone who looks horrible. You're like, who I'm thinking of. No, but here's why I wanted to compliment him before you trash them. Yeah, this is going to be clickbait. Fred trashes Chris Padgett. Because you, you know, like you look cooler than Chris Padgett. Right. Right. So, cause Chris, it's like, you know, it's like,

he doesn't look like the kind of guy who would have tattoos everywhere. You kind of do. So what I'm asking you is does his, cause he's got a ton of tattoos like you now and he started off later and I'm sure he asked for a ton of advice. Is he able to pull it off?

Do you think? Yeah, I think so. I mean honestly, in a certain sense, I think the cool thing about tattoos or culture in general is just like it's almost like the where you are like the more it works in a certain sense. That's why I think Chris like everything you said about him, I agree. Like I just he's so authentic and authentically bizarre you know that this kind of fits his bizarre life you know and you know the one thing I remember thinking about him which I was nervous about when he started getting tattoos is within like the first tattoo he got within like three

months he was getting his hands tattooed and I was like oh wow yeah no it wasn't his first one but like with so he got his first one like three months. He was getting his hands tattooed and I was like, oh wow. Yes one No wasn't his first one. But like with so he got his first one within three months from there He's getting his you know, he's I don't know if that's exact timeline, but he Immediately was You know and I get that I really like I told you like that's that's how I am but I also think that it's That's dangerous because you're you're making a lot of permanent decisions quickly,

and it just might be better to spread them out. So me, I have tattoos everywhere, but it's been over 20 years. I'm not saying it makes it more right or more aesthetically pleasing, but it does, yeah. I guess it is a little like get married in Vegas, but What's your what's your response to those who would object? First of all, what do you think the best argument against tattoos is from a Christian perspective?

Yeah, yeah sure well first thing I would say is this I've had lots of people Come up after you know like I used to do a lot more talks or music and stuff and people would come up a lot of times would be a mom but a lot of times It'd be a mom but a lot of times it'd also be a kid who would want to know what to tell his mom or you know, whatever and The first thing I would always say is like dude I could be wrong I got you know, I think you can I really do think you can make an argument Why not to get covering tattoos and it's that's a totally what is that argument? Well, I just prudence, you know, like what we like our body is not just not important.

You know, we don't believe that like only the soul matter. You know, the body matters. All these things matter, you know, like, and I think there could just be like a sense of like, well, I've heard people say like you wouldn't put a bumper sticker on a Ferrari. Yeah, but I mean, I don't know. I mean, I think like every, everything like that could limp a little bit. You know what I mean? It's kind of corny. You know what I mean? Like I just feel like there's, there's things like people throw out real quickly that like,

I think I get it or why you're saying that, but like the, the, the one thing, like, you know, like the Levitical law stuff, you know, like you shall not, we don't follow the vertical law anymore. You know what I mean? Like we don't, when a woman is menstruating, we don't tire to a follow the viticule law anymore, you know what I mean, like we don't, when a woman is menstruating, we don't tire to a tree or whatever it says to do, you know what I mean, so if someone is like living by that, then they need to be doing that, you know what I mean,

it's just like that's a little silly to me. But at the same point, I guess the argument, not for it, but the argument that I would say that why it's acceptable it's something you could do is so John Paul II who's one of my hero he had great tats yeah great that's you know tattoos and no no no but he has this this quote that I use for just about everything it's like my ranch dressing that I just use it for anything I need it. But he says if the church holds back, Father Stanford too introduced me to this line of his,

but he says if the church holds back from culture, then the gospel falls silent. And so I also did hip hop music, and sometimes people would think that was weird, and it was weird. I mean, you could even say it was dumb. But to me, I'd say, look, I have a missionary heart. I think the church has a missionary heart. It says,

it says in the catechism in the first section that the church at her essence, in her essence is missionary, you know? So what does that mean? It means that we embrace culture. It means that we don't avoid culture. We don't demonize culture. In fact, when we look at the missionary life of the church, those are the times that the church has been in error, like when it's just demonized culture or trying to just impose one culture as only, you know, like kind of like, you have to look like Ned Flanders and that's the only way, you know. But that's not like how we view

But that's not like how we view evangelization correctly as Catholics and Christians. But you know, like so he says, if the church holds back from culture and the gospel falls silent. And so really, like to me, like I love that in the sense of, that's fine. Like if, you know, like someone's not gonna do Christian hip hop or use this type of, you know,

culture or art or tattoos or whatever. And I'm not saying all my tattoos are to evangelize, but a lot of them have to do with Jesus. A lot of them, like I could tell a story of Peter's conversion or I could tell a story, you know, from a scripture quote or whatever. And it's just a way that I feel like the spirit is able to breathe into culture, into something that I don't think is intrinsically wrong And so that that that's what I guess I feel like there's there's a fine line When anyone gets too hung up on it because they start here saying like, okay. Okay. Well, let's assume tattoos are wrong Okay. Well, what about one tattoo? What about piercing your ears? Well, yeah, you can't do it 18 times

Well, what about one time, you know, like well, that's weird in certain parts of the world. What about a bigger hole in your ear? You know, like, there's just certain cultural norms that I think it's easy for us to say, like, well, this is intrinsically right or this is intrinsically wrong. And sometimes it's just like, no, this is our culture. Or, you know, like when we did evangelization wrong, sometimes missionary-wise, it's just like we try to institute a white man's culture, view of, you know, like, and we now know that that's not, you know, like what the correct way of doing it. Or like when we look at our saints, you know, like saints in the church, like Saint Isaac Joe with Vagabond missions, that's, you know, our patron saint, you know, you think, like, here's a guy who came over and got involved in Native American culture,

and he somehow raised up Christianity in a world where he didn't have Rosetta Stone or something to look up, or what do Iroquois Indians do, or what, you know, but he entered into it and he found a way to breathe the Spirit into it, breathe the gospel into it. And so, you know, I know that's... No, I think you're right. If I could, I mean, one of the things I always say on the show is like a faithful Catholic isn't only one who submits to what the church teaches authoritatively. A faithful Catholic also ought not to demand uniformity where the church allows diversity

of opinion or custom. So you meet these people and they'll get hung up on something that isn't essential and they'll start demanding that you engage in their devotion because they've gotten a lot out of it. So they talk about it as if it's divine revelation. Sure. We shouldn't do that. I mean, the other thing is like, let's take the opposite. Like imagine it is wrong. I'm wrong, tattoos are wrong, or whatever. Okay, well, at this point, there's nothing I can do. They're on my body, okay? But also, I mean, how many of us as Christians have experienced God using something weird

or even sinful for his glory? You know what I mean? Like, how many people have shared a time in their life where like they were far away from God and and to use that, you know in Conversation to bring someone closer to God, you know to share about you know, like so even like tattoos I feel like it's weird. It's it's dumb at worst. It's wrong But is it something God could use like Like totally, and he has used it. I mean there's been, you know, like one of my God sons in Vagabond missions, you know, a kid who's rough, like he got a tattoo, you know, a big tattoo of his,

the date he was baptized and he came into the Catholic Church on Easter, you know, and that's significant to him, you know, and so I think God could use, you know, anything, even sinful things, I think God could use, you know, anything, even sinful things, which I'm not saying tattoos are sinful, but worst-case scenario, I think God still uses it. That's the beautiful thing, you know? Talk about Vagabond. How did you start it? Why did you start it? What is it? Yeah, so... Now you can begin with what it is.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, Vagabond Missions is a Catholic nonprofit. It's youth ministry to inner city kids. And so the kind of kids we work with, you know, they're, you know, some of them experience abject poverty in a really, you know, horrifying way. And some of them are just experienced the poverty that Mother Teresa talks about, with the loneliness, the neglect of feeling unnoticed. Like I always say, the thing that I can't stomach is just this idea, if me or you, if you started being malnourished,

I'd say, Matt, man, you look horrible, which I said this morning, but you're not malnourished, I'd say, Matt, man, you look horrible, which I said this morning, but you're not malnourished. But you start to notice things, and you start to say, man, I notice, I can't believe yourself lately, or whatever. But it's a whole nother thing to be starving to death, or metaphysically starving to death, and no one even notices, you know.

So Mother Teresa in this, you know, her saying, you know, the greatest poverty is be unwanted, unnoticed. It's just like there really is nothing sadder than that, that just this idea that not only there are people, we all know this, you know, that there's people that are in the world that are even in our own country or cities that are starving to death, that are dying, that are, you know, country or cities that are that are starving to death that are dying that are You know spiritually shriveled and and and crippled But there's also people that no one notices and that's those are the people we try and work with in vagabond We work mainly with young young people mean the high school age a Lot aren't in high school. Some will be in gangs

Some are kids that are in high school that have special needs. Some are just lonely. But we really want the kids that maybe have been pushed to the margins or rejected even by schools or churches. We feel like our special calling is to work with the lowliest of these in our country and in the states.

And so that's what it is. And as far as how we got involved, I think a lot of times when people see me, even when they might see a thumbnail on your thing, they're, oh, this guy probably has a crazy story. I was sniffing crack off the curb five years ago, and now here I am at Pines with Aquinas. And the reality is I grew up just in a white suburban neighborhood.

I don't really have a crazy story. I met Jesus pretty young in my life. I have ups and downs like everyone else, but this was not a thing of circumstance where it was like, well, Bob's from the inner city and so he should work with inner city kids Really it's more of a story kind of we were talking about as far as missionary activities just I fell in love and what happened was Me and my wife Kate We got married the night. I finished school. I had a final that day I finished school and and then I got married on a Friday night

I finished school and then I got married on a Friday night. Left Stumville, I was at Franciscan and we moved to New York and we started working. Go ahead. New York city? No, we were in Schenectady. It was a couple of hours north of New York city. And the funny thing is, yeah, it was like, I hadn't known, I went there to interview and the pastor said, Oh yeah, this is kind of an urban area, but he was 74. His name is is Father Brucker and he's still his greatest boss I've ever had, you know, but this guy was like, you know, it's kind of an urban area and we went to Mass that Sunday when we were interviewing and it was just a sea of

like white-haired Catholics, you know, it's like, don't look, I just thought like here's an old guy who thinks this is like inner city or whatever All right, but you know a couple weeks a couple months into us being there and It was now they had no youth ministry anything like that but we just we had an old abandoned convent on the property and we We started like just doing stuff. We'd play loud music in the parking lot have pizza and we do Just stupid loud things outside then we'd play loud music in the parking lot, have pizza, and we'd do just stupid loud things outside. Then we'd all get them to come inside. We'd have masks, you know, stuff like that.

And tons of kids were coming out. But it was like just what you would imagine, like the stereotypical, like they're just fights, drugs, the police were there like every week. And like honestly, I wish I could be like, and we were up for the challenge, you know, we wanted to save these kids, but like me and my wife, like we just, I remember like crying a lot.

It was our first year being married. I wanted, Bob Rice lived like 30, 40 minutes away and he had this little parish that everyone skipped around and held hands during mass. And you know, it it was beautiful little like. Sounds worse than what you had. Yeah, but it was cool in the sense of like, it was this small world after all,

beautiful little scene where everyone was loving Jesus and doing hand motions, the songs and stuff. And you're like, oh man, that seems so neat. And we wanted just to make an impact, but we didn't wanna be inconvenienced and we didn't know what the hell we were doing. I remember being one day I was in Atlanta doing some ministry there

and my wife who was like eight months pregnant was leading the Bible study outside of the parking lot and she called me and she was like crying. She's like the police are here. There's two vans, you know, they're throwing kids in the vans You know because there's one group came over and started fighting the kids every Bible say, you know And it was just like it was so shocking. I remember one time on a we did a New Year's Eve lock-in Which I mean lock-ins are just the most horrible like concept Which I mean lock-ins are just the most horrible like concept Anyway, we did like a midnight basketball tournament at this lock-in and these kids gonna fight and then this one kid pulled out like a Box cutter, you know and they were like circle and I goes a West Side Story, you know

And then I was like on the phone with my friend Aaron I was like, I gotta go to a knife fight, you know And so there was a lot of like crying and like man What what the hell did we get ourselves and it was like that scripture you duped me Lord. I let myself be duped and You know, it definitely was the Lord moving because it wasn't what It wasn't what we were looking for but at the same time like what changed everything that mean the entire trajectory of our life and the birth of vagabond was like we fell in love and this is what like I think like one of the the big issues with the church right

now or the politicization of you know of Catholicism right now is it's like we're in these camps of like Your social justice warrior or your radtrad or your this or that your public it you know, it's like all these camps and like God forbid you be in the camp of like the poor because it seems like you're weird or you're liberal or this or that, you know, and poor because it seems like you're weird, or you're liberal, or this or that. And the thing that changes everything for everyone is if you fall in love, like I try and explain just on a very earthy sense,

like when we fall in love, we all have memories of being in junior high, falling in love with some girl, and you'll do anything. You know what I mean? Like you'll skip playing football with your buddies to bake cookies with her because you're in love. You know what I mean? You'll skip playing football with your buddies to bake cookies with her because you're in love. You know?

And I think it's almost an ingredient of sainthood is just falling in love. Because when we fall in love, we start doing crazy stuff. And so I feel like if you're like, man, what do I need to do to be a saint? I wouldn't say it's like, we'll read these 18 prayers every day.

It's just like, dude, find some way for you to fall in love, for your heart to like be shaken awake and to a place that you could fall in love. And so that's what happened with us with these inner city kids is like we went from like banging our head off the wall, you know, crying, what do we get ourselves into? Like we need to apply somewhere else to like, we are in love. And that first year, there were like 20 kids that went through RCA.

And it was from like tears of pain to tears of joy to like, man, these are kids that are unnoticed. And like the church, for whatever reason, whether it's lack of resources, lack of knowledge, lack of interest, whatever, um, is, is, is easy for these kids to fall through the cracks. Yeah. And for them to like just be passed over like, um, because they're weird or smelly or special needs or this, or they're mean, or they look weird, you know? And, and our, our hearts started to break and we started to fall in love and there was this point like where I feel like me and my wife Kate were like, this is what we want our lives to count for. And, and it was at that moment that you know, like, bag of bomb was born, like we didn't everything didn't just, you know, spring up out of the ground. but it was something that I feel like this was a moment

that we were like, we want this to be our legacy, but also not for a sense of, because I want people to remember this, but because this is, it fits with me. I'm a weirdo. There's so many weird, quirky things about inner city youth ministry that I feel like sometimes when people are giving me

accolades of like, oh, what you do for the church or what you did for, I can never do it, thanks. And I like that, because I like words of affirmation. So I'll take it. But to be honest, I always kind of say, man, this is just God being good to me, because I because I know what the hell else I would do with my life like I thank God I like you know God gave me something weird to do because I'm weird and I feel like it's it's like You know these these two worlds coming together

You know the world's needs the way God made my heart and and so that's that's kind of how it birthed but now it's in lots of different cities, and we have like 50, 60 missionaries, you know, and people are doing this, you know, throughout the country. And it's really like there's been hundreds now of these kids who have become Catholic, that have been baptized, that have found a home in the church and in this nonprofit. And it's like the most beautiful thing. Like there's just- Was Kate as equally, I mean, is Kate weird like you? I don't think you're weird.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. In the sense that you're saying you're weird, is she? No, no, no, come on, come on. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no, no. She's- Did you have to talk her into doing this sort of stuff? So when we were engaged, I remember like telling her I wanted to do youth ministry.

And at this time, I didn't think I was like, it was gonna be inner city ministry, youth ministry. But I was telling her, I was like, she's like to do youth ministry and at this time I didn't think I was like it was gonna be inner city Ministry youth ministry, but I was telling her I was like she's like what does that mean? I was like well, you know like I want kids to come over for dinner and stuff like this and call the house and You know, she was like, I don't know that I love that idea Which is funny now thinking where because she's like just a bleeding heart, like just loves people, will do anything. And really, you know, obviously like there's a point of being like a spouse, you know this, you know, we were just talking to her about this

to a certain extent, but like, you know, your spouse, you know, hopefully is always pulling you in one direction or another, you know, like pulling you off the one brink,, for me this is how it is, I feel like Kate and I are pretty extreme, so it's like pulling away, like chill out, or come back over, we need to engage our hearts. And there's been times where,

there was one time where I just, and I'm like, I shoot from the hip, man. I feel like my grave son's gonna say, he shot from the hip. And he loved Jesus, you know? And, but, you know, there was one night, I don't know what it was that got me, like, so fired up, but I just decided in the morning,

I was gonna sell all of our, no, no, no, give away all of our furniture. And I just, you know, loaded up the couches and everything in both of our living rooms. Did you just hold Kate? I told her in the morning morning and she, you know, that's what I mean, like the point of the story is like, she thankfully has like a heart that like she's willing

to, you know, follow my lead. There's times when I'm willing to follow her lead, but like where it's just like, yeah, hell yeah, let's do it, you know? And, but there's also many times where she now, especially after we just celebrated our 22 year wedding anniversary two days ago, but like's also many times where she, now especially after, we just celebrated our 22 year wedding anniversary two days ago, but like, we, you know, now there's times where it's like,

chill out, you know, we've done this, we've made mistakes, we've made a lot of mistakes, you know, as far as, you know, how do you live radically yet responsibly? It's a really hard balance. But I gave away all these furniture my wife was pregnant You know a week later. I have you know a folding chair in my in this green couch I got from the urban mission downtown for you know five dollars that my wife said smelled like sweet, but that's that she's like I'm sorry, but all I can say it smells like is a sweet, but which sounds so gross

But all I can say it smells like is a sweet butt which sounds so gross And so she cried and cried until I got rid of that and bought new furniture You know so like the point is is like she's she's crazy enough to like go along for the adventure But you know it's not to say that like there isn't parts of both of us that have been Really refined again in marriage where you're like, yeah, I need something similar happened to me I lived in Ireland because I have this kind of all in kind of mentality like you I think and so we were living in Ireland in Gator and Donegal and my wife has headed back to Texas for a couple of weeks and I don't know. I just had this immediate thought,

like how cool would it be just to watch like all of The Simpsons? So I went and bought, you know, something because this is back before, whatever, I said to buy the DVD and I rented it. And I started, I think I watched two and a half episodes and I became so disgusted with myself that I took the DVD out. I clipped the cord of the TV and threw it in the trash but then like two weeks later we bought a bigger TV. I find myself even today right like getting rid of technology and like totally just striving for the ideal but then needing to be grounded too. Yeah yeah yeah, yeah. And that's the hardest part, I think, of wanting to be holy is, at least for someone, I think,

with the personality you're describing, that part of me isn't hard to awake, like the part of me that's like, I'm all in. I feel like I'm easily excitable. I'm the kind of guy, I watch one of those documentaries that are like, you know, don't eat meat or only drink apple juice, you know, and the next day I'm like, I've thrown everything out, we're only doing that, you know, like it gets, like I could watch a documentary that says like,

well you should cut off your, you know, pinky, and the next day I would do it, you know, like I'm like a very, like that's, but I think the hard part is like there is a beauty to that like I've you know come to accept that about myself like this isn't like I think from when I was a younger guy I was just embarrassed that that was like how I worked you know this is how my heart is you know like it's like someone who's emotional and there you could see them fighting it I don't

want to be I'm not emotional on them but But you realize this is how God made me. And this is okay, this is cool. This is not weird. But that part of that flippant, like for so many years, I think I was so embarrassed about that, you finally come to your, it's like, okay, this is part of who I am. But you do-

That's a hard thing to Yeah, I still do that. I'll meet some soft spoken joyful priest and I'm like, why aren't I like that? I should be like that. I'm going to try to be like that. And yeah, I'd always tell my attempts fail. I always tell my friend in college, I'd be like, you know, whenever I meet someone like that, an introvert or someone who's like poised, you know, I'd be like, I feel like a social whore, you know, like I just feel like I'm just constantly spewing

verbal diarrhea everywhere and I just want to be laughed at or affirmed or whatever. But there's some line in the middle there where you're like, look, all of us, I feel like have been given the makings to be a saint. Whether that's like the path you're heavy on the passion side or you're heavy on the part of you that has a deep interior light. You know, like there's a part of you I feel

like that God's given you that's like, look I gave you like a you know real blessing here the way your heart was made. But you know it doesn't mean you don't need to stretch that capacity in other ways. And so I feel like with me and my wife, you know, like we've, we've helped and it's, and it's not pretty, you know, I mean, it's not just like we sit down and cross our legs and, you know, we discuss when, you know, we have, we fight, we fight a lot, you know, like I always tell like young couples, like, look, it's, it's okay. Like if you argue it, if there's tension.

The people that say I've never fought or I've never hit this or whatever, I have a real hard time relating to that because I feel like any relationship I've ever had, whether it's my kid, my best friend, my wife, a coworker, it's like you're gonna have things you disagree on and argue about. But in that, a lot of times your heart begins to change and you're like, well, but in that, you know, a lot of times,

you know, your heart begins to change and like, well, you're right. I do need to chill out or I do need to come back over here or whatever. And so thankfully, Kate. And that does go back to our personality types too, right? Like I remember when I had kids finding it a very difficult transition and I would try to like relate to people hoping that they'd have a similar experience And it was such a lonely feeling when people be like I never had that experience So yeah, like my wife and I have very big Personalities in different senses and it's the same thing like when we fight it's Yeah, yeah, I mean you don't ever want to kind of excuse fighting dirty

Yeah, you don't want to be like well She's my big personality like you know you never want to do that and you want to kind of excuse fighting dirty. No, no, no, no. You don't want to be like, well, she's my big personality. Like, no, you never want to do that. And you want to repent of that. But yeah, we're the same. We fought. Yeah, we read this book when we were getting, or when we were engaged. And like one of the premises of the book was like,

it's worthless to like spend time or spend energy, you know, upset that you're in another fight when you could just be spending that energy to get through the fight, you know? Like it's okay to fight, you know? Like it's okay to disagree, it's okay to have, you know? Like obviously you have to learn, yeah,

how to do that well and stuff like that, but it's definitely not worth just the constant like, here we go again, we're in another, you know it's like you've got to learn to just like. Well you start comparing yourself to other people, right? You're like, do other people do this? Like, do other marriages, like, we're weird, what's wrong with us? Is something wrong with us? Yeah. It's so important to say these things, as people get married and they start experiencing this and they think they're a freak and something's wrong with them. I always like to say to people, like, you're not as interesting as you think you are.

Like, we're all doing this, you know, this thing. Yeah with them. I always like to say to people, like, you're not as interesting as you think you are. Like, we're all doing this, you know? This thing, yeah, we're all. That's a good way to put it. Yeah, I remember when I was engaged, just feeling we fought so much when we were engaged, and I thought engagement was gonna be bliss and making out and your hair blowing in the wind

and you know, and all that stuff, and I just wished someone else who had been engaged before told me like, hey, kind of sucks being engaged like it's What was the number one reason you guys would fight? Well, I feel like it was like your engagements like all of The like you like you have like this weightiness of like here we go. We're doing this. We're making a life decision We're gonna love each other forever But like you don't have the sacrament, you're not sleeping with each other.

If you're striving to live a holy life, you're probably not sleeping together. And so it's like you have almost like the worst of both worlds, like here all the gravity of saying we're gonna make this decision and live our lives for this, and yet none of the sacramental grace, none of the physical intimacy that, you know,

and so, and also it's just like any time there'd be a hiccup, all of a sudden it had all this eternal weight to it that you're like, oh, maybe we're not meant to, you know, you wanted fried chicken at the thing, I want a spaghetti, you know, it's just like, stupid little things, you know, so, also I think it was coming to grips with just, you know, who we were, but I think it was coming to grips with just, you know, who we were,

but I think it is like just come back to the whole idea that like this is how we're made to live in covenant or made to live with sacramental grace. But like, if you try and just do that, like marriage light, you know, like as being engaged, it just, you really feel crappy about it, you know, I think. Yeah, no, that's so important to say. Yeah.

Yeah, I'm trying to think, Cameron and I, what would we fight about? I don't know if we fought a great deal. But it is true, you put this in our engagement. But I think it's because you do put this pressure on yourself, this feeling that you should feel a certain way. You've made this decision and it's irrevocable

and you should feel as passionate about it every second, you know, as you did when you first made it. And I remember even just like a few years into our marriage, like struggling and wondering if I made a mistake. Like did I, should have I been a priest maybe and I just, I screwed this up because I was, I was romantic or horny or something. I was like, no, no, I gotta get married. Yeah. It's like maybe I screwed that up and I should have been a priest and I've messed it up and, but I think it's important to voice those things because again, I'm not interesting in this, no, no, I gotta get married. It's like, maybe I screwed that up and I should have been in a print and I've messed it up. But I think it's important to voice those things because again, I'm not interesting in that sense. I know I'm interesting in other senses,

but I'm not interesting in this sense. We all deal with things like that and if we don't discuss them, especially in platforms like this, we kind of do people a disservice because they experience it and they think there's something fundamentally wrong with them when it's like, no, no, you made a commitment

and now you need a will to love your kids. And that's why, like, for me, like the mystery of the incarnation, like that's something that I just I love to meditate on, like whether it's an evangelization or just my personal walk with the Lord is just like this idea of ministry is messy, you know, marriage is messy, life is messy, our relationship with the Lord is messy. It's just easy to like hear, you know, someone like you or someone we look up to or whatever, you know, like, you know, sharing something about their marriage or their spiritual life or something they're reading or whatever, and just to be like, I'm not experiencing something like that, you know, but it's just like, no, most of life is boring and messy. Yeah. That's right.

I mean, and when we do share about our messy parts, like we just did, we're still sharing it from a sense of it's resolved. Yeah. So even sharing the mess is something that's not messy, which doesn't help people in the middle of their mess because they haven't had that resolve yet. Yeah, no, without a doubt. And I think that that to me, you know, doing a doubt. And I think that that, to me, you know, doing all I've ever done in my life,

you know, and this also, I feel like, gives perspective to like, like I'm always amazed, like, when I talk to people that have done lots of different things or business gurus or whatever, like it's really interesting to me, all I've ever done is ministry, you know, but like to me, it's become one of the greatest sources of peace

for me in ministry. It's just this idea that ministry is messy and it takes a long time and it often doesn't look like you thought it was gonna look like. It's like all those things, they're kind of comforting to be like. I love that, messy and boring.

I love how you put that. Most of life is messy and boring. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just like even if you look at like Jesus doing ministry in, uh, you know, in the scriptures, it's like, these are the highlights of his day, right? There was other points where he went to the bathroom or that he was on a walk with somebody and they'd run out of things to talk about, you know, or even just like, I always like to say, like, as far as like incarnation, incarnational ministry is like,

we're given this super concentrated thing in the last couple years of his life, but most of his life, 30 out of 33 years, he just did normal stuff. He hung out with people, he ate, he played, he listened, he worked. And I think that's actually a very freeing model for ministry, because I think some of us,

myself included, there's times where, like you mentioned Scott Hahn, and having taken him as a student when I was in college, there'd be times where I'd be with someone that I didn't have the right answer about the faith or whatever it did, I'd be like, oh, what would Scott Hahn say? then I'd be like, oh, what's going on, Sarah? I wish I knew.

But you realize that's just not the way normal life happens. And it's actually freeing to admit that most evangelization, it happens in a slow, messy way. There's give and take, and most of the time, we all like to hear the story, I sat next to this guy on the plane, and by the end of the plane, he was ballin', and I prayed over him, and now he's a Catholic speaker.

But most of the time, it's just not like that. Most of the time, it's like, over 10 years, we were able to share our family and our life a little bit with our neighbor Yeah, you know and and they maybe come to church with us or something You know I mean like it's a lot less Well, and most of the things that we we watch have to do with the highlights of our life So social media is the obvious one where we don't post the boring moments that comprise the majority of that day We we post the interesting moments, But then also like television or movies

all revolve around the interesting things people did. You ever watch that show 24 with Jack Bauer? I had this thought it'd be real funny one day if like Jack Bauer was sick one day and that was the season and it's just him going to the bathroom and sleeping. Like you watched that show, Jack Bauer like hunting down the bad guys

and then like he needs to go to a poo. But like that was never shown and I'm glad but like he Would have been great. It would have been a great 12 minutes. It would be very good comic relief But like any movie is like that. It's not just here's the here's like an epic part of this person's life It's like here's the epic parts of the epic part of this person's life They cut out the bit from when he drives from this place to this bit because that would have been really boring. And so you're just always seeing these epic parts of people's lives and it might lead you subconsciously to think that your life should be like that when as you say, the majority of our life is messy and boring in some sense.

Totally. And that's, I love that. The, how you said that, that's freeing, that's freeing freedom in that. Yeah. Even with, with a missionary work with Vagabond missions Missions, you know, like I know I help with recruitment and stuff and when we're doing interviews or even talking to people about possibly giving, because that's our whole thing, could you give a year of your life to start a pour?

You know, like that's, it's a basic, it's a year commitment. You know, like a lot of times I say, hey, my guess is you've been on like Vagabondmissions.com. You saw the opening video that's got a missionary with a crying kid, and they're playing some Coldplay song or something. And you're like, oh, I want that in my life. But the truth is, being a missionary most days sucks. And most days you are like, man, I'm failing. I'm not getting through to, you know, it doesn't show like the times where you're standing outside of a school and you went to say hi to a kid

and they just walked by you. Or like when you were trying to give a talk at a youth group night and all the kids just left or there was a fight in the middle of mass or something. You know, it's just like you just show the curated You should do a video like that. Yeah Every every perspective missionary. Well, I did Sarah What's the URL because we want to put that in the description for vagamond? Yeah, I just vagabond missions calm cool

HTTP backslash backslash W W W W dot Yeah, so I mean there's lots of videos on there. It kind of shows what we do and stuff like that. But I just think there is this idea though, you know, and especially a lot of us have done a spring break mission trip or whatever. But like this missionary work is sexy and exciting and romantic.

Like there's just this, this part of it that seems like I'm going gonna go to the jungle and I'm gonna spoon feed a baby that's floating down the river, bananas. And the truth is, is like most of it is pretty boring. And most of it you feel like you're not making any difference. Honestly, if you wanna say like, what are the telltale marks of missionary work?

It's like you you Fair you feel like you're failing, you know, like you're you're you're running into opposition. It seems slow You know, like those are all that's normal missionary work but because We're like a bite-sized clickbait culture like we all we do is we're used to seeing like like we were talking about before like looking up like the top 10 times Matt Fred destroyed his guests, you know, like and this will be on there

I'm sure yeah, but like, you know, you want to see the could the things you know Like the top 10 knockouts in it, you know, and it's just like a lot of it's just rolling around the ground It's not knockouts. You know Hey, I want to do an ad read. Is it okay? Awkwardly. Just wanna insert an awkward ad read. Here we go. Ready? Set. Hello.com slash Matt Fradd.

You ever heard of Hello? No. Haven't you? Well, here you go, I'm gonna tell you about it. Hello is this Catholic prayer and meditation app that this guy designed. He was kind of involved in Buddhism and stuff like that. And so he downloaded this one app.

I always forget the name of it, but it's sort of like Calm, C-A-L-M for those who can't understand my accent, about like meditating and mindfulness and things like that. And he wanted to create an app that was 100% Catholic and that could help people pray and meditate, you know, pray the Rosary, do a nightly exam, and Lectio Divina. They even have like sleep stories read by Jonathan Rumi, who plays Jesus in The Chosen, or Father Mike Schmitz. And when I first heard about it, I downloaded it and it was really good.

And it's only gotten better and better and better. And it's one of the best, it's the number one Catholic app that's downloaded. So I'd recommend to people out there, if you wanna grow in your prayer life, if you wanna learn how to meditate better, if you just have trouble sitting in silence, that this is a really cool app that could help with that.

Halo, H-A-L-L-O-W.com slash Matt. They were doing daily meditations for Advent. They're always uploading new stuff. So I know you can download the app for free and then you'll get certain things for free on the app. But if you want access to the entire thing for a month, go to halo.com slash Matt Fradd, link in the description below,

and you can get access to all of their content for a month and decide for yourself whether you want it or Not my wife and I have used it. We really liked it I would go into Adoration sometimes and because of my own interior chaos and refusal to sit with myself in the boring moments I would listen to it and it would just like lead you in this prayerful thing and you can like choose whether you want like A male to kind of lead it or a female it's very soothing voices and all that kind of thing But a lot of people say they don't know how to pray for

even like 10 20 minutes a day this could be a really cool way to begin doing that so hello.com slash Matt Fred that's an ad read are you saying hello or a hallo hallo like like how I'd be that name hello be that name H is an apple okay I had this funny moment with my accent in Canada where a woman came up to me, right? And I'm going to do her Canadian accent and I'm going to butcher it. But she went, Hey there, I'm Barb, like Barbara. And I went, Oh, good day, Bob. But the way I say Bob, B A R B sounds like the way you say Bob.

So I go, Hey Bob. And she went, and she didn't know I was Australian. She's like, no, not Bob, Barb I got hi Bob and she went and she didn't know I was Australian she's like no not Bob Bob well yeah Bob Bob Bob you know not bloody but yeah so yeah that's wow it's like Bobby Bobby Bobby hey Bobby mmm it doesn't sound as cool Australian accent is not as cool as your accent no I think it is from the me what if you had to compare though, Australia, New Zealand wins, bro I think Australian that I think the Australian accent is more masculine or dude Is sharper

Yeah, for those at home who yeah, they do the thing where they the joke of course is fish and chips Oh, hey, bro, you want some fish and chips instead of fish and chips, you know, who says that the the New Zealand? Well, dude, I so we went I Just gotta say though. I love New Zealand and I actually would say to people I first of all, let me just break this I don't believe this an underdog syndrome. Okay, whoever's really angry at the other group is usually the smaller group Canadians are upset with Americans, but Americans think Canada's cute Australians don't care about New Zealanders. They just think they've got a beautiful looking country New Zealanders are really pissed with Australia. It's funny. The Orthodox are upset with the Catholics

It's it's like the Catholic sign. No, we're kind of the same. They're like we hate you and you're very different They don't really say that some of them do on YouTube, but it's this underdog syndrome I think, that you often see in play. But no, I was in New Zealand a couple of years ago, and if people said to me, like, where should I go, New Zealand or Australia? I don't know, like, New Zealand's gorgeous.

You should go there. It looks like Hawaii and Scotland had a baby. It's tropical and rugged and terrific. Yeah, no, it's so beautiful. We went there, I don't know, it was maybe five, 10 years ago, but we was there so beautiful. We went there, I don't know, it was maybe five, 10 years ago, but we was there for some kind of ministry thing, but then we stayed for a couple weeks.

And on the plane, we always laughed so hard because it was a New Zealand airline. Oh, they're funny, yeah. And when you get out, first of all, they were playing weird music. It was like New Zealand radio, you know? But then the guy, when he was saying something, I was gonna say was mask but it's not mask now because obviously this is well before mask but it must have been your your seatbelt

but he was like if if your seatbelt I'm not gonna do the whole spiel with accent but he said you know like if they come around and your seatbelt's not on they say you'll be in big big big trouble. Big, big trouble. I mean it was just, for some reason it was so funny. And they said something about a winder. I didn't know that was a winder. Someone who complains. Oh, that was at the retreat. This guy said, don't be bloody winder. No, they said, God loves a winder. It's like a winder. What's a winder, man?

But oh, I thought that was so funny. There are It's like a wind. Sure. What's a wind? Man. But I thought there was so many Australian isms that have fallen out of my vocabulary. When I first got here, it was fun to have people like not understand me, you know, but then after a while it just gets annoying. Yeah. There's so many words like that. I've stopped saying, yeah, you've got wind.

Wind. I'm going to get back. I stopped your bloody whinging. I got to get back into that. God loves a wind. Yeah. We call that we call the the English though the Winging Poms Mmm, I don't know where Poms comes from but it's like palms or I don't know what Poms means why we call them the Winging Poms

Do you ever watch cricket when you lived in New Zealand? Oh, yeah, bro. I played cricket. I love cricket it was one time my dad I lived in in New Zealand for I love cricket so much. There was one time my dad, I lived in New Zealand for three and a half, four years, and there was one time my dad took off work and came to see my cricket team play. Yeah. And I like, you know,

I don't know if I was pitching or bowling, whatever, but like I hit the wickets, you know, and it was just, it was awesome. Have you ever heard of the Ashes series? Ashes? So what happened was, this is pretty cool. So every few years Australia and England play each other in what's called the Ashes series. And the reason it's called the Ashes series is that when Australia, that convict colony,

first beat England in cricket, they took the stumps or the wicket mm-hmm those wooden sticks behind the batsmen for those watching and and burnt them and put them in an urn and the line was cricket is dead Wow so now since then they play for a replica of that urn terrific that's really cool it's happening right now I would love to watch it do you ever like have you ever taught your kids how to play? Have you ever played? Not really. It's, I think with sports for me is I gotta be around people who care about it for me to care about it. Yeah, that makes sense.

So like if you were to say to me, Hey, let's go down and watch cricket tomorrow at four in the morning at this place, I'd be all about it, but I can't get into it on my own. I don't like sports. Yeah I remember playing like against the end of a driveway like playing against the garage door running down touching the end of the driveway. Yeah yeah yeah. Oh my gosh I have so many good memories.

Wickets what's that little thing on the top? Bails? Bails yeah. Yeah okay. Good times. That's like probably the only sport I could really get into. We should play live. Let's bring it back. Which mean you should play with each other. One V one, one V one cricket bro. Next finds with Aquinas.

Yeah. You remember you are. I forget that's a six. If I hit the wall, that's a four. And then you bring like things out. Like that's the, uh, those are the, like the fielders, you know, you put a bin over there. If you that we always bro Yeah, so now we have no Protestants or Americans We're down to just the last couple I keep having my phone off because I know people are texting me like snarky stuff We should read them They're all gonna be snarky though. They're all gonna be stuff like why don't you you know, shut up Bob or something? When did you get that tattoo on your neck and was that a big decision? I don't want to get into another discussion about tattoos but just real quick.

They want to see what you think of Matthew Kelly. Did someone ask that? Yeah. What else are people asking? They laughed when I said social horror. Yep. You said social horror and verbal diarrhea in one sentence, which I thought was... Well, there we go. Matt Bernder said he's praying for me now. Well, that was much nicer. Yeah, that was pretty nice.

I'm gonna have Matt on the show. I love Matt. Yeah, he is a good dude, man. I would never say that to his face. He's a real good dude. Actually, speaking of tattoos... Yeah, tattoo on my neck. I got after my stroke by the way I was just I was like really like Not with it, and I got the neck tattoo, but then at that point. I was like I I cares This is gonna sound like a tangent. I've fallen off of my chair laughing three times in my life, and they all had to do with watching a movie and

One time I fell off my chair actually there was my hotel bed I fell off with laughter was when Andy Bernard from the office went to get a tattoo on his butt yeah time to ink my stink and he threw his pants down and jumped up on the table and they're like actually please keep your pants on well too late we'd actually much prefer you need to please pull up your pants dude he was one of the best characters of that really when he would have anger problems it was so funny the best yeah but that time to ink my snake I fell off the bed laughing golly maybe should have Matthew Kelly on this bro yeah I've never

chatted with Matt Kelly no No? Matthew Kelly, yeah. I remember there were times in my life where people thought I was Matthew Kelly. Cause I used to go to a church in San Diego and afterwards someone came up and just thanked me for my work and I go, oh man, thanks so much. I didn't even know anybody knew what I was doing. This is before I'd written a book or something.

Oh, thank you so much, you guys really helped me. And then as we would talk, it would become apparent that they thought I was Matthew Kelly because they might say something like, be the best version of you said something like that. And I'm like, ah, bugger. Not that. And then I made a decision just from that point on that if that ever happened again, I just play along with it and just not tell them I wasn't Matthew Kelly. Yeah. I've had people think I was Bob Rice just because you and Bob Rice look very different. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I've had people think I was Bob Rice, just because of Bob. Have you really? You and Bob Rice look very different. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think it's just that Bob, you know, I think that was about it. Did Matt Kelly, Matthew Kelly go to school with you? We went to school together for a semester in Austria. Yeah, he was super weird back then, man. I don't have a podcast, so I could say bad stuff about him if you sure Jason Everett was also in yeah I know he was yeah dude there were there were some rock stars at Kristofanic we were all in school together yeah I want to I want to

I've been thinking about doing a video where I like reveal secrets about well-known Catholics But those secrets would be like really flattering secrets. Oh, wow, and and so let me let's do that. Can we do that? Yeah, yeah. Yeah sure I'll start with Jason. Okay. All right. So like people I know this stuff. Yeah, and but I I saw I listened to his chastity talk and it really, I wouldn't say changed my life, but I would say that it really helped me understand why I shouldn't be having sex. Because after I converted at the age of 17, I wanted to not do any of that stuff and I knew I shouldn't be masturbating and looking at porn or hooking up or anything, but I didn't really know

why. And so when I went to Canada to serve with net ministries, this first time I heard about Jason Everett and you know who introduced me to Jason Everett? Christopher Cameron made her my now wife. She was, she was just, I just thought she was beautiful and I loved her and she was fun. And I just wanted to hang out with her and always sit with her and talk to her. She was just, I didn't even think I was attracted to her at the time. I just loved being around her. And she had this like geeky chastity shirt on. We're on the back.

It said like, call me a prude, call me frigid. And down the bottom, it said, just don't call me for sex until you call me your wife. So I did that. And no, but she was telling me about Jason Everett and never heard of him. So she gives me the CD. You remember them? Yeah.

And I went back to my room that last night and I listened to it. And I just was so moved by it. But anyway, when I first got in touch with Jason, I just remember thinking, like, here's a guy who really wants to be a saint. I met him in an adoration chapel in England. Because wherever he goes and speaks, he'll take an hour. You're smiling.

I feel like you've got other stories to share. I have one story to share. He'll go and he'll spend an hour in adoration either before every talk or every day, just offer an all to the Lord. And I remember like, you know, like sometimes you'll meet people in a public setting and as you get to know them, like they become a lot more cash and he has, you know, him and I are good friends, but, but you know, like I'll say to him, that cash, I just feel like the talk just didn't go that well, you know, and he'll always say something like, well, I just feel like we do a lot more for them without prayers before and after them when we're up there yabbing.

Like, like he loves our Lord and he's whole without a doubt. And I love that about it. together it's like net junior you know it's like the JB net team but you would do these like little uh one day or weekend retreats um and and i remember i mean he was this exact same you know like i feel like there are some people um that like i feel like once they're like a personality you know obviously they they you obviously it's kind of necessary either you take on whatever, like this whatever, but he really was the same when he was like, I felt like in college, he was so good

with stories about saints. And we'd be in small group with just some random junior high parish youth group, and he would just be rattling through, I mean, really interesting telling, you know, stories and stuff like that. And I remember always thinking, man, he's really good. And he's always been good.

I mean, it's just so funny how quick, there's certain people like, I feel like their brain works very quickly. He's one of those people. Now he also, I get it that he does this thing, you know, but my buddy, Joey Lombardi Shout out to Joey He he has this impression of Matt like is when we would do Jason to Joey you said he has an impression of Matt

Oh, I meant to say an impression of Jason Jason. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I wish you had an impression. He probably does an impression but anyway He probably does have an impression of you. But anyway, he has an impression of Jason. Like where, so we, when I did Righteous B, Joey would rap and do stuff with me. And we'd be with Jason a lot. And he would, you know, he has these talks that are like his standard, like amazing talks, you know.

And he would do, you know, he'd talk so quick. He'd be like, I met a girl in Louisiana. She's 17, sex lots of times, you know, he'd talk so quick and somebody would be like, I met a girl in Louisiana, she was 17, sex lots of times. You know, love, yes, no, and he'd just put down the thing and he would just like go through these things so quick. And it just always would make me laugh so hard of like the impression because he was so, but even back in college when he would be telling these

like stories of saints or you know, whatever like explanation of the Catholic faith he was like that he was just he has a capacity to really I feel like relate a lot of information passionately quickly and he's always been like that. I called him up he didn't know me from Adam and you know but I called him up and said we're doing ministry in Ireland and he sent me boxes and boxes of those pamphlets him and his wife did for free, you know? Just paid for shipping and yeah, just a cool dude.

And all right, you say now it's your turn. Tell us a secret, a deep dark secret of some Catholic personality, you know? Oh gosh, I have some about you, but I don't wanna say I'm like. Please don't. Yeah. Yeah.

Oh, I have some. Just like, you know, because people always say people the same on stage as offstage and obviously there's a sense in which you're performing because it is a performance, you know, you have to capture the attention of 800 or 3000 teens. Yeah. But, um, like father Mike Schmitz is someone who I would say is like, he's just exactly the same. Mark Hart is another guy. Mark Hart. Yeah, I think most people, honestly, I feel like if people don't strive to be like that, they're like a-holes. I haven't had the experience of being on a Steubenville conference where I thought, wow, this guy is like a complete phony.

I haven't done that with a Steubenville conference, but I definitely have had that happen with people. And I wouldn't honestly, like I wouldn't say they're the A-listers that people would be like, oh, I know about this, you know? But there have been some people that are just like, man, it's sad when like evangelization is a gig, you know? And I've always thought about, and it's sad when like evangelization is a gig, you know?

And I've always thought about, like it would be cool to write a piece or write a song, you know, like I used to do hip hop stuff, but like with like the word prophet and prophet, you know, with an F and with a pH, you know, like just this idea that like it is a weird concept and I'm not saying it's wrong, you know, like just this idea that like it is a weird concept and I'm not saying it's wrong, you know, like, but like attention, there's gotta be attention when you lose the tension. I feel like that's when you, you start to like lose your, when you say tension, do you mean the realization that it's weird to be getting paid to speak?

Yes. And no, not just weird, not just weird. I get it that, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I hope people realize like, man, like, is this something like if Paul, you know, the certain group wanted him to come talk to him about the Lord would he say like, well, if you can't do $3,500, I can't be there. You know what I mean? Like there is a weirdness to that in and of itself,

but there's even a weirder thing. Like I started seeing this with like, you know, friends who, you know, like they're like, oh, they're, whatever, then they're Uber, like Matt Maher, you know, whatever. And certain people like where, and I'm not even saying like Matt or someone like this is doing this, but like all of a sudden

they're ushered off the bus until like, you know, pipe and draping, no one can see them, they're in here where there's sushi and neck massages, it's just like there's a certain part of that where you've- Please tell me that's a real thing. There's someone who gets off a bus and gets a neck massage. Oh, dude, without a doubt.

And I've been there at events where that's happened to Matt and I'm not saying like that, Matt- Wow, I'm adding that to my content. I'm not saying that those people are even like, they're the ones who like, oh, this is what it is. And you have to provide this or do this green M&Ms, that whole thing. But you start to slowly,

like Jack McAleer, who is like someone I respect a lot. He was used to like own Krispy Kreme. He was on the board trustees at Franciscan for a while, but he gave a great talk was just saying like, you know It's this slow Yeah, like all the sudden you're like why deserve this I should fly for class and I and I should not have to talk to anyone After my talk I should do this and that you know, and it's like it's just that's such a great point It's it's these indiscernible changes that happen where you just, and it's like, it's just, that's such a great point. It's, it's these indiscernible changes that happen where you just slide into it.

Because you know, there's a sense in which I remember when you and my wife and I used to be with net ministries, right? And we would travel and we would run high school retreats and we would stay in host homes. But I don't want to do that. You know, like I, you and I, there's some funny stories, you know, but like if someone wants me to come and speak,

it's like the person might be terrific, but it could be weird and there could be issues. And so it starts, right? We like, you know what? I'd rather you get me a hotel. And even there, there's probably people who are like, oh, this guy thinks he's important, needs a hotel. So it's like anywhere along the way,

there's gonna be someone looking at what you're choosing, you know, and saying, well, that's kind of weird. But then, so I could also imagine though, a situation where somebody gets flown to, I don't know, Australia and they're there for 12 hours and have to give a talk. And I can see, I don't know. We agree on this. I'm just saying like, someone's like, well, I need to be first class because I need to sleep. Like, so there's always a sense in which I can see things being justified, but I agree with your point that it's like, there's always got to be that tension. It's not like you could write a list and say if you're asking for this, then you've crossed over into a bad place.

No, no, no, exactly. But there is like, I mean, it's the exact reason that the church doesn't say like, well, this exactly is mortal sin. And I mean, there's a lot of things involved in that, you know, and there's, you know, like there is a sense of your conscience, but like the problem is when the Christian world, whether it's the music world or speaking world or media or whatever, YouTube, you know, like there's an issue like when all we do is just mimic the secular world. Yes. You know, it's just like, well, we have to do this.

You know, like, I do think there's something there that comes in that you're like, but we're actually called to live peculiar lives, you know, that don't just mimic the world. You know, on the flip side of the token. I do Understand I don't think it's an evil desire for like us to want to

You know get to know famous people or like make someone like very thing, you know Like that's I think there's like something in there. That's like a little bit of like a part of us that's like made to worship or made to look up to people. Those things are all like, they're part of the way we're wired. I don't think they're evil desires, but obviously it can come to the point of idol worship or it can come to the point of where we... There's probably some like milestones

or some kind of indicators like if you need a private jet, you've probably gone too far. Right, all right. There's a good episode or a good YouTube episode where some Protestant mega church pastor is kind of confronted and just asked about his private jet. And he gave an excuse for it. He's like, well, if I fly commercial,

I can't stand up and praise Jesus, praise the Lord. People freak out. I need my jet. You're like, I don't know. I don't know if you do. No, no, no, no, dude. It's, I mean, it's, that's the whole nature of sin. It's just easy to make excuses for it.

Yeah. You know what I mean? Honest. It's the same, and you know, we gotta be careful. Like people who are in the spotlight doing this Christian stuff on YouTube channels or ministries, right? But then also those of us who criticize other people gotta be careful.

Because how many times have you met someone who has said things like, the church just has to sell stuff and give all the money to the poor, and what sacrifice have they made? It's so much easier to point at other people or other groups and criticize them so you can feel better when you've actually made no sacrifice yourself.

Yeah, I'm glad I don't have a YouTube channel, bro. I mean, like I feel like you, and this is the cross of someone who has a YouTube channel, is like, you know, like you are on a microphone that's going out to lots of people. Like, you know, I'm laying in bed with my wife and saying, oh, this person is an idiot. You know what I mean?

Like, it's a big difference, you know what I mean? So it is a hard thing. At the same time, people need people to be genuine, authentic, and this is part of the way we communicate now in the modern world. But I think the big thing is when there's no tension. And I know that that's a little bit abstract like, I think there should be some kind of tension, like with within the Catholic speaker or the Christian musician, you know, the, you know, the Christian celebrity is, is like, what's the end game, you know, like what's, what are the non-negotiables? Like there's just gotta be something. It can't just be a continuous sliding scale

or I feel like you just end up losing your soul. And you see that now. I mean, my gosh, like there's so many, like, you know, Christians or musicians that like I feel like I looked up to that are atheists now. Like, you know, and you think, well, I could point out right where those things started happening. You know what I mean?

And yeah, I don't know. What's weird too is like America's kind of weird. Like America's weird in that it has this big celebrity culture in a way that I would say Australia and New Zealand don't have. Maybe it's getting there, I don't know, but. It's easy to say when you're a celebrity. Is it, Neil?

Yeah, like, you know, people, that's just, it's kind of how it's wired here. No, yeah. Whereas in Australia, I don't think anyone's flying anybody to give any talk for any amount of money. It's like, it's so foreign, you know. No, it is, it is. I think it is very American. But I think it's just because America is the kind of the the the center of pop culture. Entertainment industry. Yeah, I mean, you go somewhere else. They're just watching what America's doing. But it's just, you know, so it is it is weird.

Now, here's another story, secret story about someone who is a champion. I want to tell you secret stories so bad, bro. I just don't want to. They all bad, are they? I can't think of any like amazingly good, bro. I just don't want to. Are they all bad? Are they? I can't think of any like amazingly good ones. Well, I've thought about this. Bob, Bob shoots. Yeah.

Yeah. Bob shoots runs the John Paul II healing center. And he's written some excellent books, be transformed, be healed. He's going to be on the show in February, actually. Nice. So I moved to Steubenville and it's like the bottom fell out of our lives, you know, with Cameron's being, my wife being uber sick, going to hospital a few times, the kids trying to adjust

to a new place. We didn't have a house. I was in a really bad spot. You know that because we went out for beer and Bob was writing to me, texting me to ask me to endorse his book. And I just kept putting it off because I was just not doing well and he he said how are you doing and just I don't know him that well I do now but I didn't know him well at the time and I just texted back I want to smoke pot and listen to Radiohead that's all I want to do so not great that's what I wrote back and he said well let's pray so every week since February of last year, um, we'd been meeting weekly and praying for an hour each time. And about three or four weeks into this,

I felt bad that I was taking all of his time and I'm not paying him or anything, you know? And I had some stuff I needed to process and deal with. And I thought, I want to offer him money so we can keep doing this, but I want to offer him money in a way that he'll accept. You know, if you like, if you said it's not, hey, can I pay you for this? They'll probably be like, no, no, no, no. But there's a way to say it. So I was like, Hey, I, I, you know, probably be good for me to get a therapist anyway. And, um, I would love to be able to make a donation to your, your, your apostle.

Or if I could please, I'd be honored to please pay you for this time. And he just looked at me with a sort of shock. Like, no, no, man, that's not what this is about. If you want to make a donation to you can, but no, that's not what this is. A year later we're meeting, taking an hour out of his time every week, every two weeks to pray. What a guy. That's awesome. Like there's a guy who just loves our Lord and knows the gifts he has and wants to use them for the kingdom. That's awesome. Now no doubt he's getting paid in other ways, like for his ministry. But like, he's a guy who wants to heal the body of Christ. So there's another good story.

That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Mine were like Matthew Kelly's bathing suit falling off in Austria and stuff like that. Yeah. Please tell me that story. All right. So this one time we're in Austria. OK, this cannot be a clip, though, because I feel like he would feel like we're picking on him. We cannot make a clip of Matthew Kelly's bathing suit falling off in Austria. All right, so we're in Austria. See, there's that tension. I want to do it because it'll get the clicks, but we cannot do that. It'd be good, but then you have him on here and me and him will all be on here and we'll have a little boxing match at the end. So we're, we're in Austria studying.

That's the semester he studied at Franciscan when I was in Austria. And we went to the pool one day, all of us and Matthew Kelly dove into the pool and his, okay, so I think he was in his boxer shorts, like, which I always saw, I already thought was weird that he was jumping in his boxer shorts. And he, um, his, his suit came off and he kept swimming, he was under the water, he was like deep under the water. This is a public pool.

Public Austrian pool, okay. So I mean like the Austrian code of nudity may be very different, you know. But he got to the other side, he was like on the edge and he was like, boys, he's like, I'll go up. I have a problem. He kept, he kept saying I got a bit of a problem and someone had to fetch his bathing suit. Yeah. Oh my goodness.

I just don't know why you just to take that, that bathing suit. Why he didn't just, if he could swim so long under water, why didn't just go down and get his bathing suit? No one would want to touch that bathing suit. I think you'd just like be so shocked that it happened and you just keep going. Yeah, yeah, yeah, maybe that's possible. That's possible. But it was, it was, it was weird. I just annoyed me. I kept saying I got a bit of a problem. I got a bit of a problem. That's me doing you doing my accent.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. So it's a character change. Boy, he's got a bit of a problem. I'm trying to be the best version of myself, but it's difficult without my underwear. It happened. It's true. You know, Scott is another guy who just loves our Lord. I keep catching him doing beautiful things. You know, like I stayed at his house last September when we were visiting to discern whether we should move here when your whole family had COVID.

And I remember like walking to one of the levels in his house and he's just walking around praying the rosary, just hands up in the air. Just he, no one was around. He didn't expect me to walk in. I accidentally did. Oh, sorry. You know, he just loves our Lord. You know, we were going to a retreat together. He invited me to this retreat, Opus Dei retreat, and he wanted to drive up with me. but then he realized the only chance of getting to Holy Mass that day would have been one o'clock. And so he's like, we better go up separate because you probably don't want to be late to it and I'll be there late.

He just, that's beautiful. And then also just seeing him on campus, he goes to Mass every day, him with Kimberly, like they have such a beautiful relationship. Like I'll often see him, you know, they're not showy about it But just his arm around her is rubbing her back or just they pray together after Holy Communion, you know So he's a real witness. Oh, yeah No, it really is awesome like when like someone like that and I honestly like I've always thought man, it'd be cool to have and

I'm not putting him as like a like he's an old guy, you know, I mean cuz he is I mean, I mean He's getting there. He's older than us. But like there's a whole like group of guys I mean a lot of them aren't you know famous but that I could that I would say like our You know Catholic old guys that have been doing this for a long time And I'm always always amazed at their, like their faithfulness, the kind of things you're talking about in that story. There's something I feel like, man,

I would love to have them share some of that wisdom. Man, how do you, you know how it is, when you meet a Catholic old guy who hears Jesus and he's like, praise Jesus, he's happy. You know? Right, right, right. Really, really, that kind of person where you's like, praise Jesus, he's happy. You know, right, right, right. Really, really, that kind of person where you're like, man, I just, it's hard for me to muster up the joy

sometimes, you know, after doing ministry for so long, there's a part of you that, you know, you start to become like, I'm tired, you know, like, or I'm jaded or I'm whatever. And so like, I would love to, and I'm sure they point back to a relationship with the Lord and, you know, personal prayer and all that stuff, but it really, it's like such hope and it's such testimony.

I think the guys our age are like to look and see like, here's someone who's been faithful because there are people like who, who like we, we knew and love that like fell off the, yeah, off the earth, you know? And so it's, it's awesome to see someone like that to see like the branch connected to the You know the vine like that. You know, it's it's really awesome. Yeah But no good stories come to mind. That's interesting. Well, I told you the good one man. We can't tell the could you're the Tammy story? Oh, Bro, that's a good one. So there was this there's this were you there? Just one second you're gonna love this story Neil and everybody at home buckle up

Because when you told me this story, oh No, I wasn't there dude. It's so you and I were on a conference with her and that's when you first told this story Oh, dude, so You know, there's moments where like, you know, like you have either you've done something a million times You're like, you know, like I'm always gonna end the concert with this Sappy song or this prayer this whatever, you know, and I'm not saying that was exactly this for Tammy But there's this there was this speaker Tammy Evard and she was telling this story this it was a friend I talk at a youth conference or maybe three or four thousand

high school kids there but like At the end of the talk She said I'm gonna be talking about like. And she's talking to the people who are managing the set at this point. Yeah, like the AV, the lights, all that stuff. She says, like when at the very end of this talk about the crucifixion, I'm going to begin to sing like amazing grace. And I want you to like just all the lights off and just like a spotlight on the

crucifix. That's what it was just like a spotlight on the crucifix That's what it was so the spotlight on the crucifix would go off of her to go under the crucifix and she starts singing Amazing grace You know whatever like she sings the song and she starts to like slowly back off the stage and she's backing towards like the metal stairs that are going up to the stage and she sings she's like, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, and then she whispers into the microphone, she's like, amazing grace. And then the next thing she did was

she took a step off the stage, not onto the thing, and she had boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. I mean, it was pitch black, dude, it was pitch black. There is pitch black metal. Stair metal. I mean, I'm sorry. I mean, the law for her and her leg or her leg was like in between two, you know, so she was like down like this and uh, I was like the embassy of the conference, you know?

And so father Dave, Vavonka was like, I mean, we were both like, you know, like laughing, but like it was so horrible, you know, I was like, well I was like, what do I do? What do I do? He's like, he's like, laughing, but like it was so horrible. And I was like, what do I do? He's like, go, go, go. And so I just took the mic out, she still dangled into the stairs. And I took the mic out, I was like, well, the Lord certainly loves us. You know, like I like start trying to like move on

to like adoration or whatever we're doing next. But dude, I mean, it was, I mean, it was the, like, I wish I was not like in charge of like the past during the night, because I would have just laid down on the ground and laughed for the next 40 minutes, but I couldn't, like, I had to get myself together. And it's just the fact that she whispered that shit.

No, but what you said to me the first time, I remember this is she so yeah light on the crucifix very emotional song You told me I think that the last word she whispered was it's amazing It was so loud it was like don't don't don't't and then learn her legs somehow went under she was wearing high heels Is she short? Because there's only the light on the crucial my gosh that it was it was Horrifically awesome what I what I would do when we'd go up on stage and it's big, you know, you got 3,000 people out there It's dark

You got the lights on the stage and then they'd invite the team up right and we don't kind of walk up my thing every time was to whisper to the guy in front of me dude you flies down very serious and then he's up on stage lights and he's good he's gonna see if his flies down that was my thing you probably said that to me I'm constantly worried about flies a lot of times my flight is me too because I give porn talks a little yeah well time. You don't want that? Yours is worse. That will ruin your talk.

Yeah, that's true. Yeah, I'm sure you said that to me. Hey, here's a cool story about you. Speaking of like beautiful stories about people. When you were 33, you gave up everything but water for that year as far as drinking. That's really beautiful. What a cool thing. You said it was the Christ year.

Christ died at 33, and so you made that sacrifice to give up all alcohol, coffee, everything but water for an entire year. I tried that. This is funny. You told me that, sorry, I was so moved by it. I thought that was beautiful, beautiful thing to do. So I gave up everything but water. As soon as I turned 33 for about three days and I crushed those three days. Oh no, dude, I did it. But even in the morning I would wake up, I would, I would like boil hot water. Just I needed something mentally to feel like coffee. Yeah.

And then I got, I got into the vibe and I was drinking hot water and man, it would have been a lot easier if like I was into like sparkling water because now I like LaCroix and that stuff. It feels like, it feels like alcohol to me. It's so yeah It's like soda in it But I wasn't drinking that back then so I did day I did just water But I remember my buddy mark was getting married that year and I was in the wedding and you know Like one of the greatest parts of a wedding is just

Watching you the wedding, you know while drinking alcohol and I wasn't drinking alcohol you the wedding, you know, while drinking alcohol and I wasn't drinking alcohol. So I, for whatever reason, I've smoked like three packs of cigarettes, like during that wedding. I remember being outside while everyone else is inside drinking. I'm not even like a smoker, but I just smoked and smoked, you know, like just, I felt like I needed to, you know, have a little, little bit of a buzz. And yeah, I think I just ended up having a nicotine sickness. Yeah, so it was a tough year, but it was cool. I mean, it was cool doing it. I remember New Year's Eve or my birthday,

I guess it would have been, breaking the fast. And it was cool. But I don't know, for me, it was kind of like what you were saying about the three days. It was like a tough week or two. But then you just kind of get used to it. You know, it's just like, well, this is what I'm doing now. Had you told people in your life so that they could hold it?

Because it's funny, in one sense, you don't want to tell people because you want this to be a personal sacrifice. You want to brag about it. But on the other hand, I'm like, if I don't tell people, I know I won't follow through with it. So I'm going to need their accountability and shaming. I would just tell my like typical drinking buddies, you know, because I just didn't want the constant like, Oh, you're

not drinking today. Yeah. And I would still want to like hang out when people would go out on a Friday. If I think the first time I met you, I was, was that in Nova Scotia when we were given that conference possible? That was a long time ago. That conference together. It was a long time ago. Yeah. yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I remember thinking you're so weird. Yeah, and you were right about that. Yeah. Yeah. No, was that the night we went to that,

there was like that live music at that bar under? Oh my gosh. We had tequila. Dave O'Grince was there. We drank tequila. Singing. Oh no, that was with Sean Forrest. I left before that.

Sean Forrest, what a guy. That was that same night, but I left before that. So that was after my stroke and I go to bed early. I wanted to ask you about that. Yeah. So there you go. About what? Your stroke.

Yeah, how did that happen? And what was that like? Yeah, so I mean, it was really one of the weirdest and greatest things that ever happened to me because it definitely happened in the height of when I thought I was hot stuff. because it definitely happened in the height of when I thought I was hot stuff. You know, I was 30, 33, 31, I was 31 when it happened.

And I was still, I think traveling every weekend, doing a lot of stuff. And whether you have that tension we were talking about earlier or not Like, you know, there's still a part of you. You're like I'm spreading the gospel I'm doing the same, you know like is and it was such a kick in the pants to me in the sense that like You know everything you know all of us like I think if we had to say like oh, yeah You know I know the Lord doesn't love me because of pines with Aquinas or the Lord doesn't love me because I could sing like I think if we had to say like, oh yeah, you know,

I know the Lord doesn't love me because of pines with Aquinas, or the Lord doesn't love me because I could sing like an angel, or I could dance, or whatever, because I'm good looking. You know, there's still a part of us that's like, but I'm contributing something to the kingdom.

I don't understand what you mean. Okay, okay, so. I know the Lord doesn't love me because of. Well, well, like, I mean, do you, if someone said to you, like Matt, do you think the reason Jesus loves you is because of it. Well, like, I mean, do you, if someone said, do you, like, Matt, do you think the reason Jesus loves you is because you do partnership with the Lord? Oh, because of that, I see what you mean.

So, yeah, yeah, yeah, and I give the standard answer. No, no, no, it's just, it's something that's cool, whatever, but like, but there's a part of you inside that you're like, this is something like, I'm not saying it's the reason that God loves me, but you're like, my motivation behind this is like, I want the saying it's the reason that God loves me, but my motivation behind this is like, I want the Lord to be glorified. I want the Lord to know like,

this is what I want my life to count for and all that kind of stuff. But like for me, like at 31, I was driving home from a conference and I picked up my family, went to get something to eat. And in the middle of driving, like I came to a stop sign and it was just like that. I lost my vision.

And then I had this bad headache. I had to sit down on the middle of the road. I was- What does that mean, lost your vision? I couldn't see. It was just like, I was like, tell my wife. I was like, man, I'm like really dizzy. She's like, well, let's's switch and so I got out of

the car and somewhere between switching from the driver to passenger seat thank God you went on a black I know that and I sat down in the middle of road and I was like I can't seem to you know I don't remember much about that day but eventually started throwing up just because I was having a stroke. But I lost my vision and then I couldn't talk right. And then my whole left side of my body for a few weeks was paralyzed. And they don't know whether you're gonna get that back or whatever.

And there's still like in my body, in my life and stuff like that. But what the amazing slash bizarre slash horrible slash amazing in a good way that happened was that like I came to know the Lord in such a different way where it's just like, well, I'm not relying on, I remember being at a holy hour after that, later in that year, and I stopped doing the student vote conferences, I stopped traveling, I just stopped all that. I was just like, you know, in a depression

way, like which I started struggling with depression in a real serious way after that, and still do here and there, but started thinking of, well, nothing matters. Oh, well, I got so many letters and people donated and all this stuff in the hospital, I would just throw it away. I gotta tell my wife, I was like, no, these people don't care, nothing matters. I just say food would come in the hospital,

and I was like, out of my mind, but I would take the tray, throw it against the wall. I would just, I was just, you know, part of it was just, there's a craziness, but part of it was just kind of felt like nothing really matters. And then, you know, sitting in this holy hour, like with the Lord and saying like, well, you know, if say 40% of my brain died or 20%, whatever it was that died, well, at what point does a certain percentage die enough

that I'm not me anymore? Or if my personality changes enough, when am I not me and why do you love? Just the question to ask to the Lord, why do you love me? It's really like a bare, I'll put it on the table, why do you love me? Because all of us could be like, well well the Lord loves us because we belong to him and stuff like that, but you know all the psych but

I'm sure it pleases his heart that I could tell a good story or that I could speak or that I could sing or I do Whatever it is, you know and all those things like we're taking away from me like my movement my speech You know my confidence. I felt very unconfident, I felt depressed for a long time. I felt like I was always the life of the party guy that would just be silly. All those things were gone. And then you come before the Lord and you're like, why do you love me? I can't offer you anything.

I'm not even good at being me anymore. There is just this profound experience for me of the Lord saying, I just love you because you're mine. You start to think of your own kids. If I had a kid that was talking to me like a few years before that, that was saying like, oh, they didn't feel as talented at this or that as the other kids. And as a father, you start to think like, man, I don't care if you're good at basketball, if you're good at the violin or you're this or that.

You're like, I just love you because you're my son. And there was a sense of that, like a very personal thing that happened with me, I just love you because you're my son, you know, like and there is there was a sense of that like Like a very personal thing that happened with me You know where I started really realizing like And the the lord and and it and it wasn't just like something I accepted I had a really hard time accepting that the lord loves me Outside of you know who I am what I could do

What I could offer, you know, because then you start, well, why does Matt want to hang out with me? Because I'm fun? Because I can make him laugh? Because I'm silly? What if I'm not like that anymore? What if I'm depressed now? It's like all these existential questions. And they started to really burn a hole through me to the fact that, I mean, to the point

that I just felt like I was just ashes. and it started to really burn a hole through me. To the fact that, I mean to the point that I just felt like I was just ashes. You bring this to the Lord in this way and then I felt like the Lord kind of built that back up in my life, who I am, built up our relationship, not based on being on a stage or on a microphone or being positive or whatever. And it was a significant encounter in my life.

And it's definitely, there's been hard things about it, but it was definitely. How did your view of Kate's love, what was that like her loving you through this? The best way she could. Well it was funny because I remember I'd have to go down for different surgeries or like Cardiograms, you know different angiogram different things like tests when I was in the hospital for these couple months and

Like I again my brain wasn't working right, but I would always tell the Doctor like I gotta get back like my wife's gonna leave me like I just Kept thinking like dude. I have nothing to offer her and I kept thinking like You know just in my injured brain like she's gonna leave me for someone who has something to offer and uh, and then I I you know, I was like trying whenever a friend would come and visit my friend brennan or my brother ben or My buddy tim like i'd be like hey you gotta marry Kate I'd always tell them they're like no you guys are married you know like and and I would but I would try I was like trying to say like like I have nothing yeah to like offer her you know it's

like her taking care of like a handicapped kid like I just like um it and I can't imagine and at this point you don't know how much you're gonna recover, right? So right right and she would always talk about that like she would ask people not to laugh because I would always do crazy stuff Throw my food, you know tip stuff over say mean stuff to the nerd just stuff. Do you remember this? No, well, I remember like it was a dream. She said I would always say to her like She'd be like Bob. You can't throw your food on the wall, you know say, it's just a dream. And she would say, it's not a dream. And I would say, she said I would do like that in my bed. So there's that dream-esque part of it that I remember, like there I felt like there were no consequences

and everything was foggy. But a lot of it I don't remember. But I do remember, you know, like I probably had a solid two years, you know, 18 months to two years of just a dark, dark depression after that, you know, and she was so good to me during that, you know, I can't, you know, as much as like you're worried about like,

oh, I'm not going to walk again, or I'm going to be this again, I can't imagine yet knowing like my spouse might never be able to talk to me like an adult again, or, you know, even after my speech improved or some of my like mental capacity improved, you know, like, you know, I felt like I'd want to like sit in the dark all the time or like, you know, just stuff like that.

And I can't imagine like, you know, just stuff like that. And I can't imagine like, um, you know, what, what that was like for a spouse, you know? Um, like just, you know, we were talking about this once, me and you, you know, but just the idea of, you know, suffering with someone through sickness and stuff, it's a, it's a tough, it's a tough thing. So, you know, I, I, I really like, she, she was a champ going through that, but it was something that I would never, you know, I would never change. Like there's so many things in my life

that I like look at before my stroke and after my stroke. And you know, for most people, like they, it just, it's insignificant, you know? But like for me, there were just so many things spiritually, you know? And even in my relationship with my wife, you know, that like changed forever after that, you know, and even in my relationship with my wife, you know, that like changed forever after that, you know, just, you know, just because you're really like stripped of everything.

And, but it also gave me like a soft spot in my heart for so many other people who deal with stuff. You know, you realize like, I mean, that was hard for me, but like people who deal with depression in a much more severe way or have a physical handicap that's much more severe than, you know, what I have, like all of a sudden, like it definitely softened my heart, like broke my heart away that like it's, it's changed, you know, who I am, you know, like pastorally and, you know, even with the, yeah, at that time Vagabond missions was young but it definitely gave me a greater capacity for

The broken and understanding the broken and my heartbreaking for the broke, you know, it's like it You know, I think like it's like if you were You know, it's like when you see two veteran of war, you know and talk to each other like they there's a certain understanding There that they know even if it's not the same exact war you know they know what it's like to have been through war you know there's that I think that part of my heart changed you know like where you just you know your heart really softens and breaks for you know others who have experienced brokenness in a tough way and with the with the inner city ministry that you know it definitely was a huge asset

you know that the Lord used, you know, You know, I thank you for sharing that my yeah I often think that my wife's love is sort of like a prophet in the sense that it it points to God's love for me because there's definitely times in my marriage. It still happened where I'm like, why would you love me? I don't understand because like when you first get engaged, you know, when you first get married, you know, you can't there's a natural front that's up just like you have a front with everybody. You want to put your best self forward, but that you can't keep it up. It doesn't work. Eventually it drops. And my wife has seen that in me and it's stuff I wish I didn't have to deal with. Parts of my personality that I'm ashamed of

or embarrassed about that naturally come forth. At times I'm an absolute jerk to her and things like that. And I just, I'm shocked that she actually continues to love me in it, you know? And it's a reminder of the Lord's love, but. Yeah, and there's a freedom there that, I mean, you're right, it is prophetic in that it mirrors the Lord's love. But I mean, there's right, it is prophetic in that it mirrors the Lord's love,

but I mean, there's a freedom in being like, wow, I have nothing to offer, and you love me still, or like, you see me at my worst, you see me in my poverty and you love me. Yeah, that's it. And it's just something there that's like, man, I can't think of something that's more, I think when the young man,

you think nothing could be more bonding than sexual intimacy, but really nothing could be more bonding than seeing each other at your worst and just going through that, loving each other through war, because that's really a beautiful thing. Yeah, yeah.

Do people, because I only met you after your stroke. Do people say that you're different much very different before and after? Yeah. My friends that knew me well before, um, not that I'm still weird or silly, but like I, uh, I think my friends that knew me, I grew up with or went to college with, you know, I, I was the, you know, I feel like I was the bar closer. I didn't want to be there until the end. I had major FOMO. I would want to be the life of the party. Now I think there's a part of me that's definitely... And everyone... I mean, this happens in

everyone's life in different ways anyway, but I was a super extrovert to, my life has kinda come around, not that I'm not an extrovert at all anymore, but I like going to bed early, and I like waking up early, and I like Irish goodbyes where I sneak out of a party, and I like to not have to be the funny guy in a party. And also, I know those who know me closely

and have walked with me through depression. I think that's something that, because it's weird for me that that wasn't something I dealt with as a young person, but started dealing with in my 30s. That was just a weird thing. And so I think those that knew me before and have walked through that, yeah, I mean,

I think they've been very patient and very encouraging and stuff like that. And then there's some like physical things that like, I used to run a lot, you know, I used to like to run marathons and, but I can't run at all anymore. Couldn't run across the room. Yeah, my legs, my spine,

there's just some issues there that I just, that are different. But you start to like, you know, you're like, well, this is who I am, and that's that. But I definitely feel like gravity, like in the soul is a good thing. You know what I mean? I feel like, you know, gravity, like in the soul is a good thing, you know? I mean, I feel like there's just, I got a spiritual director once that was just like,

you know, you'll, I mean, this was in a specific situation. I was trying to decide how do I argue with this one person? And he was like, you'll never regret humility, you know? And you know, what he was was saying like as he went on to explain was like like the like the graces of humility even humiliation like aren't gonna be like inefficacious like you know like they'll always be something you know like the the Lord will use it Even if we're kicking it scream in a little bit, you know, like so don't be afraid of the humility and I mean that's been true

For me, you know In my life and people deal with much worse, but yeah, yeah, so I think it's been a yeah even even as friendships You know you look you learn to love someone as their life changes even in a weird way, you know? Thanks, Ben. Well, what we'll do, I think, is just take a quick break. And then when we come back, I'd love to ask you some stories about what's gone on with vagabond missions.

And I'm sure you've got some profound stories of healing and conversion. And I also want to talk about how, you know, in the church, it does feel like there's this perpetual divide, or at least in my lifetime, between conservatives who are super into, say, liturgy being celebrated well and sexual morality, and then people on the other side who are like, we should love the poor probably, but their defect sometimes is this not a real concern for orthodoxy or liturgy or things like that and how we

can maybe bridge that. So cool. Thanks. Yeah. And we are back. Hey, if you haven't heard about Exodus 90, go check it out at Exodus 90 dot com slash Matt. I'm pretty sure that's the link.

Remind me. I'm pretty sure it is Exodus nine zero dot com slash Matt. Exodus 90 is a 90 day ascetical program just for men who over the course of 90 days journey with a small group of other brothers. They read the Book of Exodus during those 90 days. They give up things like warm showers and alcohol and snacks between meals and unnecessary entertainment like television or YouTube or anything like that. And they devote themselves to to prayer. And it's a very powerful thing and on January 17th

There's gonna be hundreds of men around the world who are all going to be embarking upon Exodus 90 together so that they can arrive At Easter Sunday, that's where it starts on January 17th So if you're at all interested in this and if you're a dude go check out Exodus90.com slash Matt Exodus90.com slash Matt you can read the stories of real men who've gone through this and have said how it's been a blessing to their life and again it's not like an isolated program you're journeying with a group of men for 90 days and so it's a real cool bonding experience as well Exodus90.com slash Matt have you ever done it? I've never done it. I tried to do it a couple times and my wife Man, it's hard. She said like I'm a little bitch when like I try and fast

So she wouldn't let me do it. What do you what do you fast from then when you fast if you are a little? Well, I don't mind like the Fasting like I like doing the intermittent fasting like, you know, like don't eat after dinner, till lunch or whatever. But like some of the stuff like the cold showers, like just different. People say that, that's just brutal. Yeah.

For me, what I ended up doing was just not showering much. Wow. And that's not good. You see what I'm saying? So it's like, cause you start, you start doing cold showers every day, you're like, I don't like this. And so you start every other day, every third day, like, okay, this isn not good. You see what I'm saying? So it's like, cause you start, you start doing cold showers every day. You're like, I don't like this. And so you start every other day, every third day,

like, okay, this isn't good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. My wife, this is again, another story for keeping you in check. But like, especially after having health problems, she doesn't want me to do like extreme fast. I remember the year right after my stroke, I was convinced that what God wanted me to do was sleep.

For Lent was sleep in the alley behind my house every night. And she was so mad and she finally shut it down. She wouldn't let me do it. Did you do it? No, I was like, I was all ready to do it, dude. I had my sleep bag in the garage. I was like, I'll still hang out with you guys until the nighttime and then I'll go sleep in the alley. You know I live on your street or

I live on that street that's not a that's not a pleasant alley I'm sure to sleep in. But I was like you know I was like this is solidarity with the poor man like there's so much about it that I was like pumped up about and yeah just it was a big fail but it's good my wife probably saved my life. Yeah probably. So this idea of like liberals and conservatives, which are two very unhelpful terms often, but you know, like it's, you know, when you read the gospels and you read them honestly, there's some pretty scary things that are said by our Lord for those of us who don't love the poor. And if I look at my any given week, I don't really have a lot of interactions with the poor and

I'm not going out of my way to love them. Now, maybe that's too harsh because there's many ways to love the poor. So I try to notice and chat with people here on 4th Street, for example. But I find that very often what we do is we reinterpret our Lord's words to avoid the responsibility that they seem to indicate. So we'll say things like, well, my kids are my poor and I gotta love them. It's like, well, yeah, that's true. But like, you know, like what else could we be doing here? And you know, it's like, I don't like having encounters

with homeless people. I don't enjoy that. I try to press through it and do it anyway. And I know I'm not alone in that, you know, but I want to be uncomfortable. Like I want to get better at that. I think the other thing we often do is we just could reinterpret our Lord's words, you know? And so whenever our Lord says things like love the poor and give to those who beg from you, it's like we just think about all the things that doesn't mean, you know, like, well, we, I mean, it doesn't mean like giving cash cause they could use it for something. And, and, and, and then you're like, okay, so you've,

you've just totally gotten out of love and the poor. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I was here on fourth street a few months back and I was coming out, I was going into euros, uh, you're a, no, not euros. You're, you're good. And he said there's a bloke at the front. He's trying to sell me his sunglasses And they were really crappy sunglasses. I really didn't want them and I said no, but I can buy you breakfast. You have breakfast or no. No, no, no, that's cool. Okay So I'm glad I did that but yeah, what are your thoughts on this? Yeah, I mean, this are your thoughts on this? Yeah, I mean, this is a hot topic for me.

Like I feel like in my heart, you know what I mean? Because I really, it really makes me aggravated. Like just this idea that we're in these camps of like, well, you either vote for Trump or you're like anti-racism, you know, or you're like anti-racism, or you love the liturgy or you love the poor. It's like these, and you're alluding to this, but it's like, it is a really bad thing. Like even just like I was watching

a Jordan Peterson video yesterday, and I know he doesn't mean to be divisive I think he's like a genius is Bob in the right place here does he need to scoot somewhere Neil just okay good sorry I didn't mean to catch you I just also didn't want to have you out of focus for the next 20 years all lives this embarrassing right now no no no we do this all the time that's the beauty about being live, all these awkward moments. So sorry. Jordan Peterson. Jordan Peterson. Watching him and I think it's a disservice,

like he'll say like social justice warriors, you know, or like I noticed once when I was gonna be on here before and you had something about social justice and someone commented like, oh yeah, social justice, you know, thumbs down. It's a really sad thing that we've gotten to these camps where the reality is is like the Catholic church has always been a champion of the poor.

Like we wouldn't have a hospital. And social justice is her word. Right, right, right. So like the preferential option for the poor, hospitals, schools, you know? Even talking about vaginal admissions, this isn't something new that we're like, you know, what is Catholics like? We better do something for the poor.

The Catholic Church has been a champion of the poor. If you want to see the guts of the Catholic Church in our country, look at what she's done with the poor. And so I think it's a really sad thing, like, when it becomes in camps, like, you can't do both, you know, like, someone who cares for the poor or social justice doesn't care about anything else, you know. But you said, like, the thing that, like, is on my heart the most, and it's just the Lord's words, because there's lots of commentaries or books

or whatever we can read, but the ultimate litmus thing is like, well, what did God say about it? And it's like ultimately the main thing that Jesus says, who's gonna go to heaven or hell, is like, well, when I was hungry and lonely and thirsty and in prison, like, breathe air. Like he didn't say, like, you know, did you convince people to receive on the tongue,

you know, or did you make sure that you read these books? He just said, like, did you help me when I was at my worst? And so that to me is a pretty, you know, stinkin' big catalyst, you know? But the other thing that I, because we've talked about this before, you're like, well, you know, like what do we get wrong sometimes with it comes to the poor and stuff like that. And I, it's, it's tough because I don't think, I think it could be a both and I definitely don't think you like, I'm not a believer that you can only be conservative or, well, I mean, I get the conservative liberal,

like the debates, arguments, you can't be Republican and Democrat or whatever, but like I don't think you can be like, well, you're either a faithful Catholic or you like, or a social justice warrior, you know? Like I think like when we look at saints and we look at like the heart for Christ in the lowly and the broken,

like it really should be a both and thing. But for me, it always comes down to what we started this entire podcast with is that idea of like when your heart falls in love, you know? And so I'm not saying that you haven't had that happen, but I think that some of the things you're describing there like with the guys on the sunglasses like the maybe the annoying guy begging outside of a Maybe an annoying drunk guy begging outside of a store or whatever like I'm not saying that you know Like I enjoy those things or you know, I'm immediately like, you know holding that guy my arms, you know

but like there is a difference between this initial encounter of there is an ugliness and a smelliness and a disgustingness of Christ in the poor. And I'm not saying that the poor are disgusting. This has been my life. But to not acknowledge that there is a stench, like you know, like it's just it's it's foolishness. Like you know, what happens is that when we move beyond what we see, you know, that like,

well, of course, if I saw Christ, I would serve Christ, but I don't see Christ right now. I don't smell Christ right now. I don't, you know, like my senses are pushing me away from this person. But what happens, like that changes everything, is like when our heart like falls in love, when our heart breaks, like all of a sudden it doesn't matter anymore. You know what I mean? Like, and there's just been times like for me raising our family, like we were just talking about this, about this a couple days ago with one of my kids who's older now,

like we would have these two, this couple, Jimmy and Lydia, they were like a homeless couple. They would come a lot of times to Christmas Thanksgiving at our house when my kids were growing up. And there was a sense about them that was like, there was a certain smell, like it was just this BO and nicotine smell. Like it was the smell of poverty like I feel like if I could think about locally here and they were they were one of them was pretty severely

schizophrenic and I remember one time this the the woman Lydia asking me to shave her face like with a razor after dinner you know because she like had a lot of like hair on her face and I remember like I just for whatever reason like it was a really difficult thing for me, I went on my front porch and I was shaving her face and You know like there was just like everything about Naturally about me was like repulsed. It was like this is so disgusting and she smells bad and I know they had bed bugs and you know all this kind of stuff, but like they're they're ultimately

like and it wasn't just like a you know an immediate thing but like There was like a falling in love process with this person that you know I feel like I really did encounter Christ like even in her mental illness this person that I feel like I really did encounter Christ, like even in her mental illness, that sometimes I think we have to lean into a little harder as people who don't, now you, I feel like you live in an area of town where you're gonna encounter people

that are different than you, and that's what I like about not the suburbs, is like I hate when you go to a suburbs area and it's like, there's a neighborhood that says like from the 220s up or from the 400s up or from, you know, it's like not only do you have to live, not live around people that aren't like you, but like people in the exact like economic bracket

as you live in your cul-de-sac, you know. Then the nice thing about living in a city, and living where you live, is that you're gonna be forced to rub elbows with people that are different than you. And in that, I feel like it is a long-term thing. I think the greatest thing that we can do to really experience Christ in the poor is to have long-term relationships with

the poor and with the neighbor. Sometimes it isn't the physically poor. I'm not saying to the extent like you said, well sometimes it's just our kids. Here's an example. When I was living on your street, when we were first starting vagabond at the at first I just had this tremendous Itch to like we got a lead we got it like do something radical We were thinking about moving to Africa then we thought about moving to Mexico We're all this kind of we were going back and forth when do we do it do we do it this year?

Do we do it next year? You know how we are we gonna do it? And I had this horrible thing happen where my neighbor, literally my next door neighbor to the left of me, I saw her and I was going out to my car the next morning after we were having this big long discussion and she said, she's like, Bob, I don't want to say her son's name, but she's like, my son last night last night She's like he tried to hang himself and I had to cut him down from the ceiling and you know I saved them, but she was crying and

and I felt like it was like such a one of these moments like where you're like my gosh, dude All I'm doing is fantasizing about being in Africa and cuddling some kid in a village with rice. My next door neighbor is literally dying. I see him every day. He's drinking a beer when I get home from work

or get home from the store on his porch. And I may go up and talk to him once in a while but like here's someone literally the Lord is saying like hey why don't you talk to this guy you know he's he's 18 years old and he he likes talking to you and and maybe God is really working there I feel like those are those moments like where Jesus is saying the sheep and the wolves you know like this is one of those moments where Christ like needs us and doesn't need us to just run in and put on YouTube or read a book or you know, it's like there's so I, I, I don't know. I mean, I go in a lot of different ways there, but like what I'm saying is I think the big, like the things you're saying, I don't think make you like a bad, like,

oh, well, this is actually, actually you know like you'd be a fool not to acknowledge like there's there's some really messy things that come with loving the poor or loving the homeless loving you know that kind of a person but I think what changes everything is like when we really ask the Lord like do it in here you know and show me like let me look with that that kind of a vision and let this part of my heart like become engaged so that it's not a task, you know. Yeah, even as you're speaking, someone's coming to mind to I'm not loving. And I know, and I know just through talking with the Lord's calling me to love this person. And the reason

I don't want to love this person in the sense of like engaging them if I'm to be Just totally honest is I don't want to get involved with somebody who might want to get more involved than me than I want to Get involved with them. Like if I strike up a conversation with this particular individual that I'm thinking like Am I gonna be able to cut it off or am I gonna be able to keep that person at a distance from my family? Does that make sense? Yeah, totally and to keep that person at a distance from my family. Does that make sense? Yeah, totally.

And thankfully, I mean, I do think it helps being married. You know, I mean, I think that helps, like, you know, like with boundaries, because I mean, it's a huge, the fact that you're acknowledging that, like there is a part of that that is fear-based, that's, you know, saying like, don't do this, but you know, there could be a part of like the evil one saying like, well, don't get involved with the poor

because it's just gonna, you know, ruin this or that. But there is a part of it too that's healthy. You know what I mean? Like the idea of having boundaries is a good thing. And there were times in our family where like we missed the boat on that side. You know, like there was a time we had a homeless kid live with us, he was a meth addict.

And I mean, I was staying up every night with him as he was going through these withdrawals, you know, like kind of neglecting my kids. He ended up stealing a bunch of stuff, you know, a year later after living with us and running off and, you know, getting back into drugs. But like, there was a part of me that was really erring on the other side that wasn't healthy

and I don't think was what the Lord wanted either. Where it's just like, I think the naive, noob side of us is saying nothing, you're all in all the time and there's no boundaries and that's not correct either. There's definitely a boundaries portion to that so I do think that that pushes people away from taking the risk you know the idea that you're like this is gonna ruin my life this is gonna ruin my family time you know but

like I we would start to like there'd be times where you know we'd have kids over our house almost every day or people from whatever the city over our house almost every day but there'd be a time where I'd say like, hey, so and so, we're gonna have some family time now, I need you to go. And they would just be like, oh, okay. It was weird, but it was just like, we just had to have those boundaries.

And sometimes I think the thought that really dealing with messy things means having no boundaries. It does hold us back from doing it. You know, when like, I think maybe the Lord is asking us, like, no, I do want you to do this, but it's not gonna. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. Cause there's a freedom there, like, where I feel like, even I tell like first year missionaries,

like do not let this consume you to the point that like, they're already making no money, like trying to live in solidarity with the poor. Do not give every penny you have also to them where you can't buy dinner now or like you sacrifice your relationship with your girlfriend for this because that's not what the Lord is asking. So I do think sometimes like we think there's a both, or there's a either or, when we look at, could you possibly do something radical for the Lord? Because it's all or nothing.

But I think the biggest shame is what you're saying. It's just this idea that it's very politicized, and it's just like you have to be one or the other. And it's like, you can love the liturgy and you could vote for Trump and you could do all this and you could still love the poor and be anti-racism. And it doesn't have to be like, we only do this. Because I think that that-

It's like, yeah, it's like you're taking your cues from CNN or Fox News instead of the gospel. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. Yeah, I think like just I'm just, you know, thinking to myself as we talk here, I'm like, at the very least, I need to get to know the names of the people I walk past every day here on this street. You know, I mean, we're kind of blessed to be in Subinville where we have the poor. It's funny we say the poor too, because you're poor, I'm poor in different ways, you know, and that's not to downplay material poverty, but it's also to acknowledge the full scope of poverty. There's a beautiful line in the Psalms I read recently that

says, he has never despised the poverty of the poor. And my heart just melted at that because I see my own poverty and insufficiency, things I'm ashamed of, and he doesn't despise me. He loves me. He's merciful towards those wretched parts of me that I'm not merciful towards. So maybe feel free to speak to that. But I also wanted to say like, so much of our American life, or maybe people watching to speak to that, but I also wanted to say like, like so much of our

American life, or maybe people watching this from other countries is segregated, you know, geographically. So there might be people watching this who are like, I literally have, I don't walk past poor people. Like I don't know what you mean by poor people. What am I to do to love the poor? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I think fortunately, unfortunately, I don't think you have to go far. I just can't think of any state in the United States

where there's a part of a city or that state where you're like, I would be, it'd be 12 hours before I'd find someone in need, you know, like, I don't know what you want me to do. You know, it's like, there's, there's just, there's always an across town, you know, and in across town, maybe it's, yeah, like, um, volunteering. Yeah. Like, uh, at a, at a food shelter, maybe it's volunteering at a food shelter, maybe it's volunteering at a pregnancy center. I feel like to think that, yes, maybe in my immediate life, there's not someone

who is very different than me or very poor compared to me or whatever, that may be the case. But I don't think anyone has to go real far. Whether that means once I get to the office, I know that the person who works in the office next to me is going through a divorce and that's the poverty there that the Lord wants me to like walk with them through this. Or maybe it is saying, you know what, on a Saturday, like I'm going to start just volunteering at the food pantry, like it's an hour to Pittsburgh, but I'm going to go there and do that. I just don't like, I do think like we make efforts, we make strategic efforts, certain

things in our life. I'm gonna take time this advent and read this book, or I'm gonna, this summer I'm gonna repaint my house. We make time for things that are important. I'm not saying that it's easy to engage in loving the poor, but I don't think that it's, I just don't think there's anyone who's like, I couldn't possibly think of like someone in need that I couldn't be called to or that I couldn't be called to make a conscious decision. My gosh, maybe it's going to be like, you know what, as a family, like we're going to all give up our morning Starbucks routine and we're going to be like, you know what, as a family, like we're gonna all give up our morning Starbucks

routine and we're gonna send that money to Vagabond, you know, or we're gonna send that money to like our local city's Catholic charities, you know what I mean? Like there's always something we could do. Obviously the best thing, I think in a lot of ways, is like when we have face-to-face encounter, because in those moments oftentimes I think we encounter Christ. That's right. Cause I think a lot of the kind of charity has been relegated to middlemen, you know, like I'm going to take my bag of crappy clothes down to this place and that's me loving the poor, but I'm not encountering them, you know,

without a doubt. Yeah. That's why I always like with my kids, one thing I've been like thankful with vagabond or even living where we live in a in a small city that has a lot of poverty pockets is to say hey You know I would make them tithe, you know, like if you know, they get a hundred fifty dollar paycheck You know fifteen dollars, you know And I would say I have no problem if they're like, there'll be certain kids like Wynton Vagabond, they'll become close with, and they're like, oh, I'm going to buy so-and-so's basketball shoes like this season, you know, like there is something really satisfying about like that transaction as opposed to the middleman transaction. It's not always an option,

but I do think that there are, there are ways we can be creative there, like with tithing or with our time or whatever. And it might not just be like the village in Africa, it might be the person in the office next to us who isn't physically poor, but if we took them out for lunch, it would be a great mercy to just be able to share time, to share a meal with that person. I feel like that would be a better use of your tithe

than to put it in the box outside of 7-Eleven for sight for whatever. I think a big part of people, and myself included, not wanting to kind of engage in interactions like that is I don't like feeling uncomfortable. We have a super chat from Kanaide of the Mind, which is related. He says, I have an internalized elitist mindset

and I want to be charitable, but I have a hard time overcoming this sense of revulsion. What should I do? Did they hear you read that or do I need to reread it? No, it should have been. Yeah. So, first of all, I just love the honesty. Cause I mean, you said it earlier,

but it's like, if I have to, if loving the poor means pretending not to be repulsed by stench or by drunkenness, that's not what the Lord's calling us to do or to pretend it's not there. I mean, he loves us in our poverty for sure to love others in their poverty. And that poverty is a real thing. And the reason it's so sacrificial is because it's a real thing. Yeah.

It's not about pretending it's not there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I agree. And it's also like the Lord has asked all of us to do certain things. You know, he's asked all of us to evangelize. So it's not just for priests, nuns, and missionaries, you know, or people with podcasts.

You know, he's asked all of us to engage with the poor. You know, so I think the logical thing is to realize that the Lord's gonna know that some people aren't extroverts That some people have OCD that like I couldn't possibly like touch this person in the like what's going on with them physically right now because like The OCD in my brain is not gonna allow me to tell you you see what I'm saying So there's like that even little things like that are reality, but it doesn't mean, I think, that the Lord is taking the back of your head and forcing you,

no, you're gonna do this, you're gonna kiss this person's wounds. But I do think it may demand for that person who has this, I don't know the exact words, elitist or repulsion or whatever. I do think it demands, okay, well, this beckons you to dig deeper. So you're gonna have to dig a little bit deeper

than the person who's outside of this building when we get done here. You might have to really start asking the Lord, who is it in my parish that I really need? Maybe there's a greeter that welcomes everyone when I walk into Mass that is just so weird and no one really talks to her. Everyone kind of laughs under their breath.

Maybe that's my person. I'm just gonna stop and talk to them a little bit at the end of every, you know what I mean? So I don't think it has to be, you know, like everyone's, you know, face to the wall of like, no, no, no, everyone has to, you know, kiss the wounds of the, of the, of the poor. I just think it's going to look different. It just may, you know, require a little bit more, you know,

depth digging for. Even just like to put it simply and maybe not out a little bit, like to love people different than you, you know, depth digging for. Even just like to put it simply and maybe not adequately, but like to love people different than you, you know, to love people who you meet and be like, what the heck is with that dude? And you might have a legitimate thing, but it's like, well, love them. Don't make fun of them. Totally. And for me, I guess, like there's a freedom in loving someone like that where it's kind of fun where there's teens I can think of in Vagabond

that their mental capacity is very small, you know? And that certainly doesn't mean that the Lord doesn't want to, it's not like our faith as Catholics is only for people who understand the summa. What about someone who has a mental disability? Does that mean that person can't experience the love of God? Well they're not going to experience it in the same way that maybe we're like, look at

this point. This unlocks something in my mind, in my heart, but to me there's a freedom of sometimes like that I love that missionary activity with the poor, with the broken, even with the handicapped, like where you say like, all I have to do here, all I'm required to do is just sit and to smile and to love and just to be present. Like I don't have to explain transubstantiation.

I don't have to explain philosophy. All I'm doing is just smiling back at them, you know? But like there's something there that is valuable and important, you know, not just for them, but for me, you know? And that's why I think it's good that we do force ourselves into some kind of uncomfortable. like what you're saying, it makes me uncomfortable.

Like, and I get that that's always gonna be a part of life, but I think like we've got to force ourselves to it, or we just, we're never gonna do it, you know? Yeah. No, that's a really good point. Yeah. Loving the other. But I love what you said about like, these are Christ's words. These aren't my words.

It's like, do we want to be faithful to Christ or not? We so often take the words of Christ and talk about what they don't mean and never get around to saying what they do mean. Yeah, all the stories like the sheep and the goat or the rich young ruler who walks away empty or the easier for a camel to go through the eye of an eagle than the rich. And it's just so easy to be like, well, what he really means here is this and that. And it's just like, well, what if he really meant what he said? There's a part of that that's like, it is a little, I don't know, I'm not a fire and brimstone guy, but I've been in arguments with enough people where, yeah, I think at

the end of the day, first of all, it's like, well, whatever, then don't serve the poor. I mean, it's between you and Christ to some extent, but like, I'm just saying like the real clear ones that like Christ said, well, this is how it's going to be decided. Like said this, you know, so it's, it's gotta be, it's gotta be important. You know what I mean? If, if, if that's what Christ's example has been, you know. For those who might be interested in learning more about vagabond or joining as a missionary, just real quick, like how would they do that and who are you looking for and what should they do?

So on vagabondmissions.com, we take applications on there and people can donate on there. People can watch videos on there of who we are, what we do. And there's some really cool stories on there. Like we're even starting to have now, and this is one of my, I feel like the most beautiful things that I've seen in the ministry is kids who we met on the street who had no faith, no hope, no whatever, went through, became a part of the church, were baptized, we're baptized, we're mentored by the group and now instead of like a lot of I think like the mentality now is like if you can get out of poverty or you get out of whatever, like you run as far as you can

and do something else, you know, but now they want to invest their lives back into being missionaries and they're going to try and save as many as they can save You know, like there's something really beautiful about that so we have a whole bunch of Missionaries that are in that boat now, but really what we're trying to do is Hire anyone who's willing to take I'd say look the main age Group that we're we're hiring or people that are right out of college.

Sometimes people take a gap year before they go to college. Sometimes they take a gap year in the middle of college. But there is this beauty that I always, when I go to a college and I make a pitch, what I say is you're given this small, brief, weird window where you still have the passion and the ability to do something wild but you don't have mortgage payments yet, you don't have a bunch of kids, you know, and there's something different in me saying like, hey if I make the wrong decision and if I'm living in a van down by the river, not that that's what our missionaries do, but if I'm living in a van down by the river in order to you

know do this thing, it's not gonna matter so much as it would if I'm living in a van down by the river in order to you know do this thing It's not gonna matter so much as it would if I screw up my whole family and my wife and I miss all these more You know, but I'm like you're given this one small weird wild window See that alliteration. Yeah, that was good. I said my own blog That could be the name you put yeah, it could be one weird wild window To do something like extraordinary with your life before it really matters. It must change the way you forever,

just how you engage with the podcast. I have so many people that have written me or talked to me after their time as a missionary that have said, this has given perspective to my entire life. You know, like there's some married couples that did it for a year or two or three or four, whatever. And they said like, you know, we like Paul, you know, the whole idea, like we,

I know how to live with nothing. I know how to live with a lot, you know? And they said like, you know, we know how to live very simply, you know, like we know where the church is hurting. And it gives you context to your life where sometimes, I think even just a single person coming out of college maybe could go most of their life

without having a face-to-face bumping into the poor and it just changes you. Even if it just breaks your heart a little bit in order to love Christ in that way, it's an awesome thing. And so our initial thing is to say, could you give a year to the boy? Everyone could give a year doing something great.

We just talked about me doing the stupid water thing for a year. So you can do anything for a year. And imagine the ripples eternally of your sacrifice as a missionary for a year. it just goes on and on. And that's kind of, I think, a cool image to think like, you know, me, you know, those ripples of, you know, not just this person's life, but generations, you know, like, because that's where we're at with poverty, Where maybe like us, like two gender,

like I have girls come in sometimes that they're pregnant at 11. I had this one girl, she was pregnant at 11, her mom had her at 12. So here, her mom is 23, all right, and she's a grandmother. You think like, we talk about breaking the cycle of hopelessness with back-up omissions and like that cycle is so much smaller for them that it is I'd say probably for me or you, you know, and so, you know,

for generations this is how this person has lived and for generations this person has an experienced hope and for generations no one's brought them to Christ. And so to imagine you know that your that ripple is generations of people like what you taking a chance as a missionary for a year or two like it just it's so it's like a mind-blowing concept to think of eternity like that and how that could ripple into eternity. That's remarkable. Gosh, my daughter's 11. I know. It's crazy, right?

Breaks my heart. Really. It's a wild, it's a wild, wild thing. But yeah, there's lots of cool things on there, like where they're just sharing stories of, like I said, some of those missionaries, some of the teens we work with, and how they've come to know hope is not just me getting out of poverty, you know, or me getting out of the neighborhood, but like, hope is me encountering God, you know. Have you had to deal with maybe overcoming some bitterness towards movements in the church that

seem to be focused only on kind of suburban kind of kids like Life Teen or Steubenville? Yeah, sure. Because I know sometimes you'll bring some of your kids to a Steubenville conference. I wonder what that's like for them. And I wonder if you've ever had this sort of, have you ever felt a sort of bitterness towards why aren't we looking to the peripheries? Yeah, that's a really good question. And I mean, just to answer it honestly, like, yes, like there have been times and I think

as a more immature like guy, like there's been times where and I think as a more immature guy, there's been times where I'm just, I'm angry with Lifeteen or I'm angry with Franciscan University, I'm angry with rich people in general. But it's a very ill-informed, immature mindset. Even just, there was this time where I just feel like no one should be rich, like no one should have anything more than what they need, you know, and then you start asking yourself questions. Well, like I bought shoes, like why didn't I just

wear flip flops or why didn't I just, you know, it's like, like you could always push the envelope to where you're like, well, I should be doing more, you know, and I could be, you know, and the reality that like this isn't an intrinsic evil to have wealth and that, but there are important decisions with what you do with that.

And so in the same sense with like, Life Dean or Studentville Conference, there was a time where I was thinking like, well, why aren't we going after a different demographic of kids? It's all white suburban kids and being so frustrated and angry with that. But then realizing most people are pretty reasonable.

And like when I would, those two specific groups, like if I would ask Life Teen or ask the university, hey, could we have 50 free spots to bring our kids to the youth conference? They're like, yeah, absolutely. You know what I mean? Could we bring our missionaries to this training thing for free?

Absolutely. So there is, I think there could be on both sides of the aisle, like, well, they would never, they're just doing this, they don't care about this. And the reality is, sometimes, like you said about the person who maybe they just don't Have the opportunity to encounter someone in their cul-de-sac You know, but if someone if they had the need like maybe they would you know

And so with I've found that like I've been pleasantly surprised that when those groups have Like when we've asked they've they've responded pretty generously and those groups have, like when we've asked, they've responded pretty generously. So yes, I have had to get over that, but I feel like the main way I've gotten over it is by being humbled by even people in my own life, you know, times when we had nothing. And I mean, there was a year where I was really, it was a specific year where I was just frustrated

with someone who has money. Like how could they really call themselves a Christian and be living. Yet me and my wife at the time, we had three kids and we had a two door Camry and had different color hood on the front. And we would, we'd put the car seats in the back, the three car seats, we'd push the doors, the two doors shut, they'd crumple up, you know, it was just horrible.

And this woman came out of my church at Houston at the time, and she's like, hey, and I barely, I had met this woman once before, but she's like, hey, me and my husband, like, we wanna buy you guys a new car today know today like why don't we take a ride and we just drove over to this car place and we left that crappy Camry there and she wrote a check for $28,000 just just get we bought a van a brand new you know Sienna and but you know it's like those are the times I feel like sometimes where God humbles you

and you're like, it's just so easy to be like, well, those people over there, you know, the liberals or the rad trads or this or that, you know, this is how they are and they're all jerks, you know, when in reality, sometimes like we just, we need to like interact with each other more because sometimes actually like their heart is really beautiful.

Like they just maybe just haven't had the opportunity, you know? And so I've been humbled and that's how like that's changed for me. It hasn't so much change as like, well, I'm going to make a decision to really be more, you know, uh, understanding of people that are in these positions where I've felt hurt before, you know, I just feel like God's really humbled me where, you know, someone who I thought was an idiot or a jerk just did, you know, the most, you know, the sweetest thing for, you know. I wonder how like your interaction with the poor,

um, has, has enabled you to receive care and love in your own poverty because you know, I think I would much rather give to the poor than often receive help in my own poverty. Because if I'm giving help to the poor, then look at me, like I'm given to the poor. But to be in a place of receiving that hospitality, it can be embarrassing, can't it? I mean, I'm sure there was a level of embarrassment for you

when that woman bought your car and you got to drive over there and you want to show gratitude. And there's a sense in which, yeah, like you're vulnerable in that place, you know? Yeah. And there has been, like even now our oldest daughter, you know, she's 21, she's a missionary with Vagabond, which is cool. She did some other things, but you know, she's with us now and it's pretty fun. But like even trying to explain to a young missionary, you do have to adopt this kind of... I remember

reading that scripture, you open your hand, satisfied the desire of every living thing. It's in the Liturgy of the Hours. Just this idea this person was writing that the posture of all of nature, of all creation, even the animal, is this. It's like the open hand. If it rains, then I'll drink. If it rains, then I'll grow. If the sun comes out, then I'll this.

If the harvest, if apples fall, then that's what the deer eat. But for us as man, we have the option to take. I'll do it, I'll provide for myself, don't need you, thanks anyway. But you do, I feel like you are forced to, as a missionary, learn to kind of come back to like, okay, I'm just gonna be grateful. And so like a young missionary, sometimes I just have to try and back to like, okay, I'm just gonna be grateful. And so like a young missionary, sometimes I just have to try and tell them like,

look dude, if you're out and your buddy wants to buy your beer or someone wants to give you a grocery card for your family because you're a missionary, like you just have to learn to say thank you. And it is a humbling, it is a really humbling thing. But I feel like that is something that, the people that are in need, they just get over that. And it's not something they have to say,

like, well, I have to get over this and take it. They're not trying to be humble, they're just trying not to starve to death, or they're just trying to be happy. So they'll take the free meal and they just know. But I think for us who have the option, that's, that's even more strange, you know, to say like, well, yeah, I could say no to this. I'll still be fine. Yeah. There's, but there's something I think it does to your interior. It's like a rebuke to our self-sufficiency to receive the charity of another

is not. Yeah. Yeah. I, I remember when my wife and I probably shared the story before we're living in Canada, we were beneath the poverty line, nothing like the people you work with, but we couldn't afford me to beer or anything. And it was, it was rough, you know? But I remember once like this, this friend of ours brought over a Turkey, um, because there was just one on special and she thought maybe we'd won one. She left and I was tearing up. Like it meant the world to me.

But like now if you brought me a turkey, I'd be like, shit, but where am I going to put this freaking turkey? I don't have enough space in my fridge. I'd be like upset. No, I wouldn't be upset. But yeah, you know, it's just like, wow, you know. No, it is. She had a heart, you know, that was like she was attentive to the needs of those around her.

Yeah. That's why she brought it. I mean, she probably said what was on special. But I mean, what she probably meant was, I know you guys aren't the best place. For sure. For sure. I had a friend who, you know, she would say like, oh, the only difference with, you know, working with people in the inner city versus working with people in the suburbs or however you'd wanna split those two is like, us over here, like we've learned how to hide our poverty. We've learned how to hide our ugliness. It's just like, we might be struggling in our marriage, but we know how to put on a smile

and we have a nice car to get into and we can dress nice and we could put nice food on the table when like the guests come over and and even as a young person when I might be Depressed with my life, but I could play these video games and I have nice clothes and I my teeth are all straight You know, but in the inner city or you know, like with the broken Oftentimes like they don't have the luxury of hiding their brokenness. You know, and so it is something like, yeah, it's a weird thing like just this voluntarily,

to voluntarily be vulnerable, you know, but that's, I think the ultimate movement of a missionary is it's going against, it's like downward mobility, you know, it's like you're trying to, that's why poverty I think is almost, there's some virtuous components of being poor. You know, like where I'm not hiding the fact that I need a savior. Like it's right here.

There's no duplicity almost, yeah. Yeah, I could see I need a savior, and I need a meal, and I'm back to this, you know, as opposed to, there's a lot for me to hide behind and, uh, it doesn't really feel like I need a savior because I have a lot of stuff that I could provide for myself. You know? Yeah. Thanks for being on the show. No, it was fun, man. Yeah. Thanks.

Thanks for having me. Thanks for the espresso. It was really good. You're welcome. Yeah, so just again, you didn't ask me to promote it, of course, but just Vagabond, can you put that top link? Cool, people can check you all out and donate and become missionaries if that works. Cool.

Yeah, man, thanks. It's great, great to be on the show, great to be buddies. It's great to see my table in action. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, thanks a lot. Peace, brother.