Pints With Aquinas - Seeking Safety in Jesus in a Chaotic World (Fr. Mark-Mary Ames, CFR) | Ep. 559

Episode Date: December 23, 2025

In today's interview, Matt sits down with Fr. Mark-Mary Ames, CFR for his third appearance on Pints with Aquinas. The conversation focuses on prayer (particularly the Rosary), finding refuge in Jesus in the midst of a chaotic world, the division we experience today on social media, God's mercy, what religious life and the priesthood are like, plus answers to questions from Locals supporters. 📚 Get my newest book, Jesus Our Refuge, here: https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Our-Refuge-Matt-Fradd/dp/1968630023/ 🍺 Want to Support Pints With Aquinas? 🍺 Get episodes a week early and join exclusive live streams with me! Become an annual supporter at 👉 https://mattfradd.locals.com/support 💵 Show Sponsors:  👉  Truthly – The Catholic faith at your fingertips: https://www.truthly.ai/ 👉 Hallow – The #1 Catholic prayer app: https://hallow.com/mattfradd 💻 Follow Me on Social Media: 📌 Facebook: https://facebook.com/mattfradd 📸 Instagram: https://instagram.com/mattfradd 𝕏 Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/Pints_W_Aquinas 🎵 TikTok: https://tiktok.com/@pintswithaquinas 👕 PWA Merch – Wear the Faith! Grab your favorite PWA gear here: https://shop.pintswithaquinas.com - - - Privacy Policy: https://www.dailywire.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

where he says something to the effect of God doesn't love the you that you wish you were but aren't because the you that you wish you were but aren't doesn't exist. Yes. He doesn't love ideal people. Yeah, he loves people. Let's go ahead and like be honest about that as trying to like instead of like pretending like that's not where we're at and let's go ahead and work with you where you're at so we can but we can build up to hopefully the habit of a daily rosary. So social media as a whole, it's like can good come out come out of it? Yes. Are people praying yes? Isn't an ideal way to have Catholic conversation

to learn about your faith about more sensitive issues? Maybe not. I love being at CFR and I love this order. Like what a gift it is to every day be surrounded by people who are like praying and sacrificing and being generous.

Like it's easy to have a, it's easier to have a joyful and hope-filled, like, hermenudity. of the world when you're surrounded by these good men, sinful men nonetheless, but like good men, sincere men, really seeking the Lord and to love the poor and to love the

church and to love the brothers. Like it's a huge, it's a huge gift. Hey everybody, before we get into today's interview, I want to tell you about my brand new book. It's called Jesus Our Refuge. If you, like many people, unlike all of us, to one degree or another,

have been seeking refuge in things other than Jesus Christ and have just found yourself increasingly weary. Then this book is for you. This book is about taking Jesus seriously when he says, come to me, you who are weary and burdened and I will give you rest. It's getting great reviews and I know it will be a healing balm to your soul. Check it out, Jesus, Our Refuge. You can get it right now on Amazon. Thanks. So your podcast, Rosary in a Year, was the number one, this is my understanding, downloaded podcast at the beginning of the year. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So it hit on Apple Podcasts, right? It hit number one. And it was there for a couple of days. It went down to number two because the Sean Ryan podcast had a big, there was a big news story here. And then it went back up for a couple days. Yeah. Congratulations.

Thanks. Not congratulations because, hey, you're popular. But congratulations because you get to spread a very beautiful devotion that helps people love Jesus Christ and how wonderful is that. Yeah. Yeah. And if anything, I think, right, because it's the rosary. It was Bible.

Catechism did it, not the rosary. If anything, it's a testament to the faith of people and the faith is alive. And yeah, they're like, they're hungry for God and they're hungry for resources, which are going to help them deepen their relationship with the Lord. How tired did you get of people being like, the rosary in a year? Well, yeah, because of the thing, oh, it's like, it only takes me 15 minutes. You know, like, I heard that. I heard that quite a bit.

I heard that quite a bit. But the reality is my world, my normal world is very, very small. I'm almost always with, I live with four seminarians. It's me and four seminarians, and then I work at a seminary. And so I'm seeing the same people all the time. So there's not actually a ton of that happening in my normal life. Gotcha. Yeah.

Did they approach you about it, or did you have the idea? Yeah, so it's with Ascension, Ascentia Press. But what happened is towards the, it would have been like right around the beginning of 2020, So right at the end of, or maybe 2020, right at the end of Bible in a year, I did a video for Ascension Presents, right, which is their YouTube channel called Rosary in a Year. And what I laid out there was a way in which someone can like begin to like take on the habit of praying the rosary in a way which I think really grounds them in sort of the most important foundations and fundamentals of the rosary. which isn't just getting through 50 Hill Mary's and building up the muscle of praying the rosary at the service of actually falling in love with it

so that you persevere in it. And a lot of that was a response to some of my, like, negative experiences that I took on the rosary as a young man and like what wasn't helpful. So anyway, that happened and it did well and they were just paying attention to people's interest in the rosary and so a couple years later, did present me with the idea of doing the podcast.

What a gift. Yeah. Like imagine if you could, I mean, go back and tell St. Francis that, hey, I got to do this thing where I told this many million people about the rosary. Yeah. That's bananas. Yeah. I'd be curious.

Yeah. And I think, right, because like, again, people, like, what I feel called to, and, like, actually very, very deeply. And I, and I, this is really a big discernment point for the things I say is. to and no to is like leading people in their next best step with the Lord, particularly in their life of prayer. And prayer is foundational and it's essential and it's like profoundly under attack and profoundly hard to do in, you know, the current year. And so whatever I can to help people and to accompany people there is what I want to give my like my time to. Yeah. Do you find that

that's what you're known for now when you encounter people in Catholic settings? Is that what they're talking about? Rozier in a year. Yeah, yeah, 100% in a new way. And so, because presents, I think, trends a little bit younger. And then we have another podcast with the friars called the Poco Poco Podcast, which again, trends a little bit younger. But certainly, rosary in the year, like, opened it up

to, like, a pretty broad, like, demographic of Catholics, including kind of all ages. Yeah, beautiful. Now, I don't know your story, and we don't need to get into it into the weeds, but were you, were you raised a Catholic? Yeah. So were you praying the rosary with your family or occasionally or?

No, not at all. Not at all. I had my conversion. I raised Catholic, Sunday Catholic, not a lot more than that Catholic, but like serious about it. Like serious about, you know, if we're going on vacation, we're going to go to Mass on Sunday kind of thing. But not outside of grace, not praying in the home together, other than like maybe a prayer

at night. But when I was, when I went to college freshman years, when I had my, like I really believe it needs to affect my whole life moment. And one of the things that was brought to my attention is that good Catholics pray the rosary and pray the rosary every day. Okay. And so like what I started to try and do was to try and pray.

Like my commitment was it was pretty like superficial was to pray the rosary every day. But I would do it really as fast as possible while doing a bunch of things. And there was almost zero actually prayer involved with my praying of the rosary. And so it became just a task, just a thing to do,

the Lord in a helpful way. And so it kind of was a slightly like negative experience. And so pretty quickly it became something like I didn't persevere in doing because I was trying to do too much too quickly without the right foundation and formation. And so the rosary in the year was to try and kind of like the starting point in a certain sense is just getting back to the priorities of like what prayers and what it is in was the priority of the rosary, what's not the priority of the rosary. and also giving permission for people to be where they're at.

And it's like it's not realistic for me to pray five decades every day. It's like, okay, if that's where you're at, like, okay, let's go ahead and like be honest about that. Instead of like pretending like that's not where we're at and let's go ahead and work with you where you're at so we can, but we can build up to hopefully the habit of a daily rosary. I love that. I was reading Jacques Philippe's excellent book. All of them are excellent. I think it was called time, no, interior freedom.

Yeah. Where he says something to the effect of God doesn't love the you that you wish you were but aren't because the you that you wish you were but aren't doesn't exist. Yes. He doesn't love ideal people. Yeah. He loves people. Yeah.

And that's where he meets us. Yeah. This is funny. So this is my third time on the show. And this is a, we've talked about interior freedom both times has come up. Yeah. Because I loved the last time it was like, remember that. We were both trying to reference it.

And I didn't have any. I'm like, what's the book? It's like a blue book. And we called to the guy in the back and he was able to look it up. Interior Freedom, Jacques, Father Jacques Philippe, it's one of my very favorite books. I love it. Yeah, it's really... And part of it is this whole mind frame,

if he's just like honest about like, yeah, exactly what you just said. And he says something along the lines as well about like how the Lord loves us, kind of like, where we're at and just kind of who we are. But really, it's like the, yeah, the response and the growing in holiness is a response to first being loved,

even while we're still sinners. So I feel like there's a needle, The needle that needs to be thread here. And I wonder what your take is, you know, clearly we shouldn't be praying, clearly we shouldn't be attempting to pray the rosary poorly. That would be wrong. Clearly we shouldn't attempt to be praying the rosary

in a distracted way. Yes. And yet at the same time, I think there might be something virtuous in choosing a prayer rule and just knowing ahead of time that depending on the day and how much sleep I got last night

or what's going on, I'm going to pray it poorly. Yep. And I think there's virtue in choosing to continue with a particular prayer rule even when we're praying it poorly. Because otherwise, I think you put the sort of pressure on yourself that unless you're going to really mean everything you're doing, then why even bother you just, it's just vain repetition or something?

And I don't think that's right either. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And there is a grace to make and keeping commitments as well, 100%. And you nailed it. And that's why it's a little bit difficult to have the conversation. It's not too difficult. We'll be able to get there.

Ideally, it's a conversation that's had one-on-one with a person where you can get the sense of like where they're actually at so you can guide them actually helpfully. Like specifically for their situation. But like I think that some of the principles we can lay are that number one is that prayer is essential and it's not optional. and daily prayer is essential and not optional. And this is one of the quotes that the catechism has.

It's actually one of the strongest, like most sort of in your face quotes of the catechism is it's quoting St. Alfonso Ligori. And it goes something like that, like this is like those who pray are surely saved, those who do not are surely damned. And so like prayer is like not optional. It is essential. And the way I like this sort of frame it is that like the spiritual life is a real life. and you can kill your plant by covering it.

You can kill your plant by cutting it and a half. You can kill your plant by uprooting it. Or you can kill your plant by just not feeding it. And eventually that's to that life will die. And similarly with the soul, you can kill the life of God in your soul by committing mortal sin by doing all sorts of stuff. Or you can actually slowly just kill the life of God in your soul

by not living a spiritual life, but not praying. It starves the soul. And eventually you do end up with the life dying and you end up in and sin. And I think so, so like number one is prayer is essential. Okay, now we're going to talk about, okay, how do we actually pray?

What's going to look like for the person? And to go now, it's more specific to the rosary. And I kind of like back this up with folks like, I think Paul the Sick might have said something about it. St. Ball the 6th, St. John Paul II, Pope Benedict, they all, like, John Paul the 2nd in his apostolic escortation on the Most Holy Rosary, the Blessed Virgin Mary, Pope Benedict 16th.

It's like they both kind of put this thing out there. Like there's a way in which you can pray the rosary, which is just mechanical and routine and not really prayer. Okay. So there is a way in which you can do it with kind of like willed distraction in a way which simulates prayer, but is not in fact prayer. And so this, for example, like as a priest, I'm committed to praying the bravery every day.

And so if I'm like, if I've got the bravery, but I've got like, not in my case, this wouldn't have. and we don't have it, but I got the football game on. And I'm like, I'm like really watching the football game, but I'm also like praying the bravery and I get through all the prayers. I didn't like pray the bravery, which is quite different than if I'm praying it.

And I'm like, there, TV's off, but I'm getting distracted. Right. That's helpful. Yeah. And so there is something of like, kind of like willed, intentional, um, controlled distraction versus kind of the natural distractions that happen. as being a part of a human being.

And so there is, right? So there is some going down to like, were you really trying, were you really making good steps that you sell yourself up for success? Are you also trying to sort of like learn where there's steps to learn? That's so good.

I mean, because there's a lot of people who struggle with scrupulosity even if they don't give it that name. And the last thing we want is for the takeaway to be unless you're mean in this, you're not praying. And if you're not praying, you're doing something bad.

And we don't like, I don't like, I think a lot of men, especially are like this, but I'm sure women as well. I don't like engaging things I'm bad at. I tend to shy away from things that expose my poverty. I get frustrated when something happens that I have to tend to and I feel like an idiot.

Yeah, right? And so I think one of the reasons we don't like prayer, we don't pray rather, is because we feel like we're not doing it right. But oh, that could also be a trick of the devil, huh? Well, if you're not doing it right, better not to do it. I mean, I don't think anyone's ever said that, but that might be the feeling that we get.

Yeah. So I like that. Maybe it's kind of an analogous distinction to mortal and venial sin, you know? Sure. It's like, yeah, if you're trying to be distracted or not just trying to be distracted, but yeah, as you say,

if I'm praying the roger or reading the bravery while I've got the TV on, you should know that this isn't conducive to prayer. Yeah. So you're culpable for that. So, yeah, but that's different to, I mean, how many of us had, everyone's had this experience where you pray the rosary

and you get to the end of the decade and realize, I haven't thought about once, not that mystery once. But then when I do that, which is, you know, not more often than not, but not infrequently, is I'll go, all right, I'll give it three more. I'll just give it three more Aves. And I'll actually try this time, and I'll just leave it at that.

Yeah. Yeah, and I think kind of, I guess what it can come down to is like, is the distraction within your controller without of your control. That's beautifully put. Yeah, that's summed it up. Because turning off the TV, that's in your control. You're a parent, you're doing all sorts of things,

you're trying to pray, and your mind is running. Like, you can't just turn off your mind, you know, and just turn it to one channel, which is the rosary. Like, you know what I mean? So I think that's really a good way maybe of putting it. It's just like, was the distraction within your control or without of your control? But if it's without of your control,

are steps towards limiting this distraction within your control or not as well. But most folks who are trying to pray the rosary, I do think, or trying to pray in general, are in this camp of, they're trying their best, the distractions that are happening. Oh, 100% are just kind of happening. Yeah.

Yeah, and you're trying to please our Lord and our blessed mother, and they are in fact pleased. What is prayer, father? What is prayer? Well, one of the quotes of the catechism, which I love, is like, I think this is the quote is like it's prayer is our response to God's thirst for us. So why I'm starting there, even though it can feel a little bit abstract and is that prayer is a response. Prayer is is a turn of love or turning of our time or attention or raising of our hearts to another who is always and constantly looking upon us with love and attention and attention.

and the deepest of like investment in our lives. And so like prayer doesn't start with us. It's not fueled by us. It's it doesn't, it's not primarily our work. It's a grace that is given by God. That is a response to his love of us. So it's a turning of ourselves of adoration of worship. It's a giving up of, it's a turning of our whole mind affection.

Like all of our humanity, all that we are like to the Lord for Him. to see us and to love us but but even but also to glorify him and to praise him and to sort of a rejoice in his goodness to behold his goodness um yeah that's that's that's that's that's what comes to mind yeah and i guess when we talk about prayer we can talk about different things meditation or uh contemplation or uh yeah mental prayer which as terr Teresa avila put it is just just like an ongoing conversation with the God who loves us. Like an intimate conversation with him who loves us. Yeah. Yeah.

And that's hard to do, especially today, maybe especially today. I know we always tried people who say things like, well, today it was harder than in the past. We're like, no, no, no, every age is the same. It's, you know, but I don't know if it is. I think we're all being drowned out by podcasts like this, although I hope this is a beneficial one. Yeah.

Or 24-hour news cycles or our phone just beeping constantly. and it's like, we've put ourselves in a place where it may be almost impossible to pray. You feel the desire to respond to God's invitation to pray. Yeah, there's a lot of ways in which there's like, well, this time is the worst ever or whatever. That may not be true. Probably not in a lot of cases.

I think in this one, it's spot on. I think as far as it has never been harder to pray than it is right now. And there's, because of technology, and how broad it is, there's always something easier and more interesting to do than prayer. And there is a lot of, I mean, I think it's also like, I think there's like a demonic intelligence behind this.

Like I think it's not just sort of human greed, but there's a lot of really smart and talented and well-funded people who are trying to get your time and attention and bring it to themselves or their work. Not that they're trying to necessarily bring it away from God, but a fruit of it is making it really hard for you to pay attention to be pretty, present to the Lord.

And I think this is where we are getting our inside, outside the church, we're getting our butts kicked by our ongoing use of technology in the way in which it's like invading all of our lives, particularly the way in which it's like, like I think of this whole thing about like, it's harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom, or it's as hard as for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven

as it is for like a needle or a camel to get through the eye of a needle, you know, that whole thing, is as far as like entertainment goes and interest and like pleasure that can, like no one, like we, every person who has a smartphone now is richer, if you will, than the richest man 2000 years ago when that scripture was, like when that was said, that story was said.

Because like we all have this huge, if you will, all that treasure could give you of like getting your time, attention, pleasure, we all have it here. And so we are just almost across the board that rich man who need to make some real concrete challenging decisions regarding a relationship with technology and how it is affecting our children and how it is affecting our relationship with the Lord.

Like we are just in a, yeah, I tend to try and be as encouraging as possible, but with this, like we are in trouble. I remember in my senior year of high school, getting into a discussion about a pleasure machine. You know, like this isn't, sure, a novel, but the idea that there would be this machine that you hook yourself up to and you feel perfectly pleasant, you know.

Or likewise, I remember thinking, well, imagine if you could just transport yourself anywhere at any time, you know, like maybe after this interview, I'll go home and hang out with my mum and dad in Australia, and then maybe I'll go, who knows where. And in a way, the phone kind of mimics those two sci-fi ideas, right? That it's this thing that I turn to

that makes me immediately, what have you, calm down, as you say, it's this easy thing. But it also kind of transports us. Isn't like, it's quite wild that you just, I don't know you've, you probably aren't guilty of this because you don't use technology much. And by technology, I'm talking about computers specifically and modern computers, but sometimes you'll go into your, like,

YouTube history. Sometimes I'll do that, and I'll scroll through. I'm shocked at how many videos I've apparently watched over the last 24 hours have begun to watch and then stopped because that couldn't even keep attention yeah it's it's horrifying yeah and how many diverse uh types of videos they were you know it wasn't like on the one track it was all over the show and it's based on what the algorithm's

feeding me yeah yeah and so that's why like when we are like on a platform like this using technology with rosal in the year um and even like a lot of people don't know this but uh so i've run our the friar's communications for about eight years and and getting started the first questions i had were like should we even be doing this and what i came across is each year there's a the church puts out this like this document or this declaration document we'll call it on the world church communications day yeah yeah and so each year there's something about communications and so I kind of went through those from John Paul II and particularly Pope Benedict and what what they

kind of all say is like hey there's like a lot of dangers to this space and we and we can't just like leave people here but that's where people are and so we need to go in there with like discernment and wisdom and also kind of using the best tools instruments that are out there like we have to do it effectively but ultimately you need to like meet people there and bring them into like a real sacramental life bringing them into real in-person community and so what i think like you know you're doing here what i think that the rosier in a year hopefully is doing is like okay i want i like i want to get you're on your phone and there's like a real battle for your eyes and ears because this is where you are can we get there in a way that's

and then bring you, ideally in my world, like, and my desires, like to bring you into a place of, like, personal prayer with the Lord. That's, like, what we're trying to do. And so I think that some of the good news of something like Rosary in the Year is that people are using technology in a positive way, and they're willing to allow it to lead,

like, we can effectively lead them into, away from it and into relationship with the Lord. Yeah, I just had this image. I quite enjoy some of these post-apocalyptic movies, was it 28 days later it was terrifying and excellent but you know the sorts of movies that I mean where there's a refuge somewhere

and usually the protagonist in the movie is trying to they discover that there is a refuge and they're trying to make their way to the refuge and in a way it feels like that that most of the world will call it the is the internet and that's where every

it feels like everyone's living and it's just in the wreckage and the real I don't know, or maybe I've got it backwards. Maybe it's like the real world has become the wreckage as we've all migrated to the world of the internet or the land of the internet. And we're trying to bring people out of that fake world

through the records to the refuge. I'm not articulating myself well, Father. What do you think, though, about that? Well, so I think like what, what I think this was something that Pope Benedict sort of said and this is just something that, like, it's kind of a distinction of terms,

is that like, because real people are on this space in their real lives, this is the real world as well, you know? And so it's like, it's a greatly reduced experience of life and of the world, but this is where people are. Okay. And so, I just say that because it's like,

the gospel needs to go there, you know? It's not fake. It's not fake. One thing I kept apologizing for years ago was, and I kept saying, like, stop watching my show. Just go read Thomas Aquinas on your own. and you'd be far better off. And I had a lot of really loving pushback.

Like, please don't do that. Like, this actually led me to the faith. And I got friends who came to the faith because of the show. And when you downplay it, it's not helping anybody. And so there's that too. I mean, I think there's a sense in which that's right. Like, if you could, if someone listened to your podcast and decided to cut off 80% of their internet use

and it wouldn't negatively affect their family safe and they started receiving the sacraments and praying more, you'd be like victory, of course. Yeah. But also, we don't want to pretend that what we're doing is ineffectual or a waste of time. Correct. Yeah.

Yes. In an ideal, healthy world, how much of this online stuff exists versus people doing it in person? I don't know. But we live in the real world, and this is where people are. And so we need, the gospel needs to be here as well.

You know? Yeah. So like I've struggled with like we've, again, I run social media for the friars and we've, we've made a decision for multiple reasons about not, like we have an Instagram account, not opening TikTok and not like having a TikTok account. And so the argument for it is that's where people are, that's growing, that's where the next generation is, all this sort of stuff. But you draw the line of TikTok? Well, because Instagram's kind of become TikTok in many sense. Maybe, maybe. Just with the reals. You get fed. But it is more substantive, I think. Anyway. I don't really know.

And I'm not, not that this is actually like never going to change, but, but something that I just like kind of took into account pretty seriously, like, okay, if we go and open a TikTok and now some of the people who, because you kind of have to have a different type of content on there, it's a different sort of platform, at least I think so. I don't want people to follow us now into this new space, which is obviously so addicting. and so there is some sort of like discernment of like okay we're like you're not going to open an only fans account to you know that is like a pull inside yeah yeah you're not going to start one of those and start a franciscan just so you could maybe read the Bible because hey that's

where people are and we got to be there proclaiming the gospel yeah yeah yeah we know that somewhere we should draw the line yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah and so this is this is one it's like this is obviously shown itself to be highly popular and and extremely effective at in getting people getting people to stay here for a long time. We can't be naive about like, if we open that, if we open a TikTok account, people are only gonna watch Catholic content for a short period of time and then go back to their normal lives.

They're gonna get sucked into the whole algorithm and all that sort of stuff. And so we need to, yeah, we need to be where people are and we need to be strategic, we need to be bold. But we also need to be very discerning about not what's just good for us and our platform and our podcasts and our work, but we have to take into account

what's gonna be good for the souls of those we are trying to serve and to minister to who are listening, who are watching, et cetera. Are you seeing people make headway in this space? Like are people beginning to pray? Are people making, I think I am, I actually do. I think there's some really excellent things that you can do to sort of limit that noise

that then just makes prayer more easier or less hard. Are you seeing that in the Catholic world? Are people beginning to pray? Are they beginning to put technology its place, whatever? Yeah, so, you know, to use kind of the gospel image, I think the weeds and the wheat are growing together. There's a both end. I think the, I think the overall effect right now, the use of social media, particularly in the area of young people and their addiction to pornography and anxiety and all the sort of stuff, I think the net outcome right now is

negative and probably significantly negative on the culture and general society as a whole. I think for individual people, there's many for whom it is positive and who are actually have been influenced and engaged by it in a way which is helping them, helped them to a deeper experience of prayer, a deepening of their religious life or their own spiritual lives, brought them to religious life, brought them into the Catholic faith. Certainly again, like rose in the year, the best feedback is that I'm like praying like I've never prayed before. It's like, so is it possible?

Is it effective? Yes. Nonetheless, are, or is the average age right now, you know, in which a young person is being exposed to pornography, like absurdly, grossly low? Yes. Like, is that a huge problem? Yeah. So social media as a whole, it's like, can good come out, come out of it?

Yes. Are people praying yes? Isn't an ideal way to have Catholic conversation to learn about your faith about more sensitive issues? Maybe not. I want to tell you about Hello, which is the number one downloaded prayer app in the world. It's outstanding. Hello.com slash Matt Frad. Sign up over there right now and you will get the first three months for free. That's like a lot of time. You can decide whether it's useful to you or not, whether it's helpful. If you don't like it, you can always quit. Hello.com slash Matt Frad. I use it. My family uses it. It's fantastic. There are over 10,000 audio guided prayers, meditations, and music, including My Lofi. Hello has been downloaded over 15 million

times in 150 different countries that helps you pray, helps you meditate, helps you sleep better, it helps you build a daily routine and a habit of prayer. There's honestly so much excellent stuff on this app that it's difficult to get through it all. Just go check it out. Hello.com slash Matt Fred. The link is in the description below. It even has an entire section for kids. So if you're a parent, you could play little Bible stories to them at night. It'll help them pray. Fantastic. Hello.com slash Matt Fred. And is there some other places that are pretty dark and pretty negative? Yeah. And I speak of that from the space of working religious life where we have, we're presented with young men who are serious about the Lord and who want to follow him and even give

their lives to him. And the big struggle. now is a capacity question. It's not a good intention. It's not a desire's question. It's a capacity question, which is highly been affected. And it's obvious by the advent of the smartphone and the ways in which it is kind of undercut men in the area of chastity, but also just people

in the area of like their mental health and their grit and their overall wellness and strength, which is like a human foundation for the spiritual life to grow. Yeah, you could perhaps make an analogy between, you know, entertainment and food. You know, if you've grown up your whole life just eating Doritos and drinking Pepsi skittles, then a nice steak and a glass of red wine

might not even appeal to you because the junk food's easier. Like, it's easier to get, it's easier to store and keep, it's easier to consume. Yeah. But it'll make you sick. Yeah. And social media, yeah, is kind of like that.

I think it brings, it just pulls out the worst in us, like rash judgment and slander. We're not in a place where we're thinking things through logically. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, like, I think some of it's subtle. My dad's, I don't know if this is why this is in my world. My dad's an attorney, he's a trial attorney.

And one thing that, so I've kind of been around the American legal system a little bit. one of the things that as I've grown older, I've grown to appreciate more and more is the amount of time and effort, according to my judgment, made to make it a fair trial where there's like, you're trying to, like, everyone gets an attorney, you know, they're like, we're going to have an attorney

and that there's like, okay, the prosecution has a period of time and then the fence has a period of time. And we're all kind of like doing what we can to make sure that we are not just trying to condemn a person or not condemn a person or have this side win or that side, but we're trying to get to the truth. And the difficulty with the way in which a lot of conversations,

debates happen, including Catholic spaces online, is, you know, people use the word echo chamber, but also like you could just say it's like, you're only and exclusively listening to the prosecution. And what ends up happening is like it all starts to make sense and there's no sort of fair informed like counter arguments or you're only listening to the other side. and so people are getting like swayed in certain directions and things are getting more and more divided

because some of these conversations haven't haven't overly prioritized like making this not just a conversation about this or that but having to be like a real genuine kind of what's it like um search of truth with all of the necessary kind of components of a sincere search for truth which often is going to include people on different sides of the conversation, both having the same, like talking at the same place at the same time. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does, a lot. You know, so I want to make your same point. We'll see if it's similar.

One of the nice things about growing up in a family, growing up among people, is that the behavior you engage in, you have an immediate feedback as to whether that was appropriate or not. Yep. Jordan Peterson has this, I think, excellent rule where he says, don't let your kids do things that make you hate them. And you could understand that in a bad way. But, I mean, the idea is like, yeah, like you want your children

to act in a way that other people will find agreeable, whole things being equal, you know? And our identity is being confirmed within our families, perhaps, you know, for good or bad. But social media seems to be an identity confirmer, right? because no matter what view you have, it could be anything. And it could be vile or it could be virtuous.

If you throw it out there, someone will agree with you and praise you for the view that you just said. Isn't that bananas? Like I could say something about Hitler pro or con or I could say something about the Catholic Church pro or con. I could say the most vile thing imaginable. Someone somewhere will tell me I'm courageous for having whatever view it is that I have.

And so I think in a way, I think this is Brian Holdsworth's point, dear friend of mine, yeah, he said that social media is like an identity confirmer. So you'll say something, people will rally around you, and then you'll feel more secure in that view. And then even if it was crazy what you just said, you'll double down on that view, and then you'll somehow think that you're this sort of person or that sort of person. So it's almost like instead of the loving family that's meant to help you navigate how to act, how to think, social media may have become that, or what do you think?

Is that right or not? Yeah, yeah, I think so. And yeah, I think there's a lot of levels to it, right? Because certainly it can be. It doesn't have to be. And that's where people have to be actually courageous. And to actually have some of these like bold takes, which are speaking to a very clearly established body of people

and you're just speaking to the choir. But it might be like bold to other people. That's actually not super bold because you feel like these are your people and you know they're going to like it and you're not really concerned about these people. And so you're gonna say something, which may not be 100% true, but you're speaking to your family

and you know this is what your family says and cares about. Like, to be bold, sometimes in Catholic spaces, because we don't necessarily, we don't actually fit into small, tidy, really clean boxes to really profess the Catholic faith. If you're really gonna do it, it's gonna have the opposite effect

because you're gonna get- You're gonna upset everybody. So when you say, we should take care of the immigrant. Correct. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We should love the homeless. or people shouldn't be committing acts of fornication. Sure.

Yeah. You can upset everybody, yeah. Correct. And so that's where I think that's the temptation and the tendency that particularly ordained pastors like priests really need to very consciously be aware of how we are feeling that and very, very like consciously step into not getting pulled into a particularly family that's not the Roman Catholic Church and what she teaches and how she worships

and what she believes and how she loves in her totality. And so to... Yeah. Yeah. Because we all have these like signal words and signal actions that signal to each other that we're in the same group. And they're not necessarily bad, you know?

Like when we Catholic sit down, I might say something about the blessed mother or the Holy Father or, right? Yeah. Or you might see my rosary or my scapular This isn't merely to do that, but it's at least a consequence that it signals to you that we're on the same team.

And I think likewise, as politics becomes the new religion for many people, and we can all slip into that, I think. You know, maybe you shy away from saying certain things that the church does teach because it's a signal for the team you don't want to be on. And maybe you've got good reason and not want to be on.

Yeah. Yeah, 100%. It's, and it's, and this is part of the, um, the experience of, if you will, again, like, your pastors. And by pastors, I mean, your priests and your bishops who are leading, um, parishes and who are leading diocese with a whole collection of people in it. Is we are like, um, we're trying, we're not, and, and, and we're getting he attacked for it. So it's like I'm out praying, you know, the rosary in front of an abortion

clinic and I'm being called like a fascist, you know. And this is, this is all real stuff. I'm upholding the Catholic Church's teaching on human sexuality and the human person, and I'm a bigot. I am, I'm trying to worship and to guide people to worship according to like what the church has asked me to do. And I could be a modernist or there was another, yeah. Or a traditionalist. Or, or, yeah, well, I mean. In the negative sense. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you're praying, yeah, you're praying a rosary and you're something or you're wearing a habit and now you're like, you know, something. And it's just like, and I'm, and this is one of the things that I believe St. Francis lived. And this is something that I feel like the deep, like the deepest parts of my heart is like I want to be a faithful son of the church. That and like that's it. I want to think like the church. I like I want to love as the church invites me to love. I want to love. I want to. worship as the church asked me to worship like with all with all of my life and all of my heart like I want to be a faithful son and of the church and I and it's just like and and there's so much

division and so much like working against that well it like it really like it like tears me up to see um to see the growing division and it's like and it's so hard because of how the conversations are happening it's so hard. to just like, we're just getting so divided. And there's new divisions happening, it seems like, every day. And again, as a priest, as a Franciscan, as a Christian, as, like, it does. It just like, hopefully as a father to God and his people, or a father to God's people, like, it really hurts. And, yeah, yeah.

I wonder what you think about this. I think one way to think of it is there are certain things that Holy Mother Church demands. there are certain things that Holy Mother Church encourages. There are certain things that Holy Mother Church condemns or permits, right? There's different categories here. And we're going to get them right. And so maybe part of the reason the church can feel divided

might be because we're saying the church is commanding something when she isn't. So like if someone would accuse a Ukrainian Catholic priest of celebrating the divine. liturgy as being schismatic, well, what they've done is they're demanding something that the church hasn't. Or if I say to somebody, unless you pray the rosary every day, you're actually not a good Catholic. Now I'm demanding something the church doesn't. And so I agree with you that there's a lot of division within the church. But I also think in some sense, the church is a big a tent

than perhaps we realize. We might jump on to a particular devotion or a particular, what have you and it blesses us. And so then we talk about that as if it were essential when the church has not said it's essential. Yep. A million. Yeah, 100%. And that's kind of even, again, I'm glad you brought specifically the rosary example.

That's why like to act as like so much of like the beginning introduction to like the rosary in the year format has been sort of being aware of people who are going to be really kind of put off by a Catholic priest saying. you don't actually have to pray the full rosary every day. Yeah. That's, you know, that's just not, it's not a precept of the church, right? Do you need to pray every day? Yeah.

Is the rosary like a proven and privileged devotion, maybe even the queen devotions? Yeah. Do you need to pray it every day in its totality? Actually, no. And it is quite dangerous and hurtful to put a burden on people that God and the church don't put on people. So that would be missing up, right?

So I think it's fair to say the church encourages the Holy Rosary, not just permits, clearly is encouraging, but isn't demanding. Correct. Similarly, and it comes from both sides. Like if I prefer the Latin Mass, and then I get called a schismatic for finding this preferable

and having arguments for why I think it's preferable, I think that is also to fall into that era. Say that one more time. If I personally prefer to attend the Latin Mass over the Novus Ordo, and that's all I'm saying, there's definitely people that will accuse me of being a schismatic and I'm not.

Correct. Yeah, so I'm just saying it happens from both sides. It happens from the side that's demanding more tradition and if you don't agree with them, like the rosary every day or something. But it also comes from the other side where if I extol the beauty of the Latin Mass or even say the Byzantine liturgy or something like that,

then I'm somehow engaging in the liturgy wars. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. Yeah, and I think probably, I'd be curious, I guess, I think we're, we've, we've gone through like a shift. And so, and I could be wrong, and you can hear, you can kind of push back on it. Is I think, right, 30 or 40 years ago, those who were doing more like established traditional signs of piety would have been like name called. Whereas now we've kind of swung back in a lot of ways, I think, you know.

in a very, very, very positive way. And now more of the correction is coming from the more traditional side, I think. I think online. Like online, there's a lot of aggressive voices that maybe look. Even if they're not, one can have the impression that they're looking down their nose at me. What do you want from me? I just, I go to my church up the road. Why are you treating me like this?

But then the traditionalist feels like, well, no, actually, we've been pushed into this corner. and we feel like you're not taking our plight seriously. Yeah, and let me walk back what I said. I think that's, I completely agree with what you just said and walk back what I said is because like 100%, if you go into some Catholic church, right, that's had music done one way,

that isn't just envisioned by like, you know, the Second Vatican Council and you try and bring in something that has been, which is going to be more traditional, you're going to hear a lot. You're going to get a lot of emails saying, you know, this is taking us back and it's whatever, whatever, whatever,

or whatever, yeah, 100%. Yeah, I wonder how much of this is, again, just this desire for safety. You know, like I don't wanna fight anymore. The culture's nuts, I can't have that enter the church, but of course it has entered the church. And so we're just sort of at each other's throat, demanding that everybody sort of get on with our thing.

But if we would just accept the fact that church is really big and there are all sorts of devotions that might not make any sense to you, but they don't have to. Yeah. Like the Infinite Prague thing doesn't make any sense to me, but it doesn't need to. because the church is universal.

And so I can respect it and be grateful for it and cheer on those who are super into it. But I don't need to pray. I'm sure there's some kind of chaplet to the Prague, I don't know. But I don't need to be into that. And that's okay. And you don't have to like.

Yeah. And I, do you know, you know, restore the glory? Dr. Bob. Oh, do I know. And Jake Kim, right? So there's terrific. Terrific.

Terrific podcast for those out there. Restore the glory. I just want to give my full throat endorsement. Yeah, a huge, a hugely helpful and timely resource for people talking about using social media well or media well. That is a prime example. I was on, because I'm not going to get into the whole thing now, but I was on there maybe a year ago to do an episode about safety and some of the things that are there to make somebody feel safe. And I kind of wanted to talk about that for a second with you because when we first sat down, we were talking about some of the situation. You mentioned kind of your desire to help people here, you know, feel safe.

and then the safety word came up. And I think that is such a, that's like what's happening so much, is that people, people are hurt and people are afraid. And so, ways in which we feel safety are to surround ourselves with our own people. Ways in which we feel safety are to create very, very clear, concrete rules. Like rules can help us, because inconsistency and not knowing what's going to happen. it's super vulnerable. It's chaos.

And so we're gonna set rules and very clear rules and concrete rules and we might add more and more rules. But really what's happening is we're just trying to feel safe and we're not safe. We're hurt, we're scared, we're vulnerable. And I think this, like recognizing this and owning this and naming this brings a lot more like empathy and compassion into these conversations.

I love you. Yes, that's correct. You know, we made fun of, and maybe we were right to make fun of them. From one perspective, but not from another, the safe spaces that popped up in universities 10, 15 years ago, remember? Not really. I know the idea. I don't really know the details.

Well, if they felt threatened or if they felt unsafe because some lecturer was offending them on the thinest grounds, there was a place for them to go with crayons and maybe, my point is, sure, maybe some of that needs to be made fun of. people are afraid whether they have a right to be that is to say whether it kind of lines up with objective reality or it doesn't the experience is the same it's like when someone says don't be defensive well if you think you're being attacked defensive is precisely what you should be it would be wrong of you not to be defensive yeah and i think it's i think that's right i think we just feel afraid a lot of people feel very afraid and we're just desperate for security yeah yeah yeah

Yeah, absolutely. And right, some of the, for me, at least is kind of like a working concept, some of the ideas of like what needs to be there in a context for us to be feel safe and actually be safe are they do include like physical safety and like sort of like that is like a reality, which can include like includes emotional life. But also like consistency. For example, if somebody has like an alcoholic parent and you never know what you're going to get, you're not going to feel safe at home. clear rules and justly enforced rules are all actually part of safety. And so if like, for example, this is like a very mundane example. Well, I guess I won't say that. But like what's happening is just that like, and this is, and it's so real and it actually needs to be reverence and respected is that the reality is that a lot of people have taken their families or their kids into mass. or into a conversation with father

and had a very, very negative experience with father who has said something that is just clearly not, like, not what the church teaches. I think, and this is like an example, I have friends who, it was like right after COVID, the first time they were able to go back to Mass with the family was Corpus Christi, or it was a, yeah, Feast of Corpus Christi,

Bonnie and Blood of our Savior, right? On, so it would have been June of like 2020. And then the priest there has, uses this feast of like, the body of blood of our Lord to like promote this sort of like LGBT agenda that has nothing to do with the Catholic Church. And then they're going home having to explain these new vocabulary to their nine or 10 year old son. And so this is very, so, and I think this family's kind of gone now

into like more sort of traditional spaces, sought out more sort of extraordinary form spaces. And it all, you have to like say like that totally makes sense because it's like you go to the, parish in this church or you go to confession and you just don't know what what guidance this priest is going to give to my kid i'm going to go somewhere where i know what i'm going to get and that's like that makes sense like there's a lot of safety there you know um and there's a lot of hurt there and i think that is all like justified you know um i don't know like thoughts about that

yeah no i think i see where you're going with that i think the the danger might be where be where you see danger where there isn't danger because you've been so scandalized and so you start talking about all novice automasses as clown masses or something like that. That's unfair. I've used this analogy multiple times.

I've touched on it here. The idea that no one can live in chaos and so if there is a storm outside that is threatening to kill you, you need safety. Yep. And then once you've found it, you cling to it with D.L.

life and nothing will have you you don't want to get out of that place anymore and a lot of people feel that way i think and so like here's an example right like maybe you're in the chaos of culture and church and then you found some YouTuber that had very strong views maybe incorrect views um but you you you it was like a foothold that kept you from falling and then you're going to treat them with this undue reverence and attack anybody who's critical of that person because if that person's wrong, then it's chaos again, then I'm falling again, and I can't fall again. So I have to, I don't know if I'm making sense or if I'm just boring people at this point. But this has been a lot of, I think, what I've seen. Yeah. And to maybe, if, um, not to be rude, but to respond

to myself or to correct myself as I'm thinking out loud here a little bit is, as I also don't want to give the impression from what I just said that the only reason people are seeking out like the extraordinary form of the mass and places where that's offered in those cultures is some sort of Oh, negative. Negative running from something else, right? There are people who have just found something true and beautiful there and have found themselves attracted to it. So I don't want to like, yeah.

At the same time to make it messy in a different circumstance is like, and yeah, I'll just bring up, again, sort of like the immigration topic is like, you know, I lived in Honduras for a couple years. And to make a long story short, there's a time where a very, very good family we have, and like a very, very good dad decided it was time to bring his family to the US

because they were at a seven-year-old's birthday party and there was a shooting. And so he's like, my family's not safe here. And so we're gonna go try to find some more that is safe. Not sure America's the place you'd want to come to, sorry. Sure, well, you know. I'm joking, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But so it's like, if we, right, and not,

not everyone is coming, trying to come to the U.S. for that reason, you know, certainly, but there is just some, like, a room for, I think if we can see the ways and we can kind of, if we can have a meeting point of, like, here's all these places that I've been hurt, and here's all these places in which things have gone wrong, and we're, we're making decisions, like, seeking safety because, like, we're hurt and we're afraid. That could be, like, a really compassionate place of, like, connection to build some of these other more controversial conversations that are very, very nuanced and et cetera. Are you having them with regular people?

Do you find? Um, no. Only because I live in a, I, in real life, I live in a bit of a bubble. My, my real life currently is a bit of a bubble is I, again, bubbles are okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm a Franciscan. I mean, you know, it's part of, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like 330 days of the year, I'm with the exact same people.

Good. Well, see, this is what 500 years ago or 300 or 100 years ago, people just called society. Yeah. Like, bubbles are good. That's just how humans have lived forever. Sure. Yeah, yeah.

Some people called them families. Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. Yeah. I just wrote a book. I'm going to give it to you. I hope you'll read it.

Or at least read the first chapter and then decide if it's worth it. It's called Jesus Our Refuge. Yeah. And the point is, that he's the safe space. Yep. Anthony Padua, your brother,

said that there were multiple reasons that Christ showed his wounds to the disciples after his resurrection. And one of them was to show the church where they can hide from the attacks of the enemy, like a dove might hide from the hawk. And I make this, I point also to Jeremiah chapter two where God says my people have committed two evils.

They've forsaken me. They've built cisterns. They don't even work. which I've always found funny and so those cisterns that don't even work seem to me to be the ways in which we try to get along and live the good life separate from him from the good Jesus who loves us

and they don't work and we end up exhausted and it's Christ's words I forget where because I'm a good Catholic where he says just be careful lest your heart grow weary with drunkenness

and carousing in the cares of life which is a funny statement because I feel like I would look at him confused and be like, what are you talking about? That's why I'm, I go to those things precisely because I'm weary. They're not making me weary.

I'm weary. That's why I'm getting drunk and doing sexual stuff. And so it's interesting to have God say, be careful. These things that you think of the cure are actually the poison. Isn't that an interesting way to look at it?

Yeah. But that he's our refuge, and we can take him seriously when he says, come to me, you who are weary and burdened. And this intimacy that we can have in prayer with Christ is not for the spiritual elite. It's the point of the Christian life. So we're not called perhaps to have the stigmata or levitation or something like this,

but we are called to an ongoing dynamic intimacy with a God who's always present to us. And that's hard to believe. Like, it's actually hard to understand because I'd rather think of God not rather, but I think it would be easier think of God as a beekeeper who just sort of looks at us as a collective. He's present to us as a giant blob of humanity

trying to imagine how it's possible for God, whatever that means, to be personally and attentive to me while also being attentive to everybody else on Earth and everything else in universe. I don't understand that at all. And so when I start thinking like that, it kind of short-circuits It's my ability to then accept that as the truth. Yeah. And yet the Christian faith says that he is.

Yeah. It's bananas. That he is not to use a human expression, taking his eyes off of me since the moment of my conception, that he is familiar with all of my little Matt Frad ways. Yeah. That he knows how many hairs are on my head, which is probably getting increasingly easier for him.

over the years but um that's wonderful can i ask can i ask a question of course is um and i could be wrong is it because from what i've seen like this this book and like the the word of the book if you will feels like something you're very passionate about correct yeah what i'm saying right now is everything to me and um it would be i don't know if if you're open to talking about like because if that doesn't just come from nowhere necessarily it comes from how that has been true and like real concrete stuff of your life is that is that true you've experienced this yeah of course absolutely um i think it's a lot easier to treat christianity as a syllogism or a moral system that will get your life on track and uh it can then be used to

sort of bludgeon your enemies into submission if you're good at arguing yeah and I'm not saying there's no that that's there's a look it's the truest of philosophies and the most beautiful of moralities but this but that I personally have encountered Christ and I've experienced his love for me and it made everything better truthfully is a groundbreaking Catholic AI app built to help you know live and defend the Catholic faith with clarity and confidence. Whether you're navigating a tough conversation, deepening your understanding, or looking for daily spiritual guidance, Truthly is your companion on the journey. It's like if chat GPT went through

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Download Truthly on the App Store. And sometimes I've experienced it in very profound ways and my life got immediately better when I heard his voice, when I saw his gaze, when I asked him a question and believe I heard what he said about me. You know how it's like another analogy to food? My wife always says, listen to your body because she deals with a lot of health problems

and she tends to eat carnivore but isn't pushing that on other people. she always says, like, listen to your body. And I think that's good advice, you know, like if you start eating in a way and you're getting sick and tired, all right, well, and then you start eating in a way

and you immediately, maybe not immediately, but gradually, like everything works. Like my joints don't hurt. You know, we hear people who say these sorts of things. That's what I experience when I have intimacy with our Lord in prayer. Everything works better.

I'm less afraid. I'm more confident in his love for me. So I don't want to forsake that intimacy for like a syllogism or just telling the world to get on board with not fornicating and being racist so we can all do better. Why, and that's tidier, that's easier, right? The syllogism and the morale, that's easier.

The intimacy with Christ where I allow him into the parts of me that I hate about myself and let him look at them, like Peter get away from me, I'm a sinful man, like a Song of Songs chapter two. Like, come away with me. And I'm the dove in the cleft of the rock, not wanting him to look at me, because I don't like it.

Why is that, why do you kind of give that experience of the Lord, like the word refuge? Because it's, because we live in a world at war. And to try to understand Christianity without reference to that spiritual war is to not understand Christianity. So the world, in the flesh and the devil exist or understood properly

are pulling us away from reality and they're isolating us. And we need to bury ourselves in the wounds of Christ so that we can be alive again. Yeah. Come back to reality again. Yeah. I hope I'm not just saying fluff words because I mean it. Do you think that makes sense to you? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Back to our boy, Jacques Philippe.

I mean, that, sorry, Chuck Fuliffe, Father's, in that book, he says, like, there's no place else. There's no way you can feel more at home and comfortable. There's no place that you can drop your shoulders than in the gaze of the loving father. And so, like, we have a paraclete, which they tell me is a word meaning defense attorney, someone who comes to the assistance of somebody

in a sort of legal case. That's what the Holy Spirit is called. That's awesome. We have the enemy called the accuser of our brethren. But it's like we sometimes get that backwards. We thought that God was our accuser and that the enemy is where we would find life. But then when we went to the enemy and sin to find life,

it didn't work. And it's like the angel saying to us, why do you seek the living among the dead? Like curious, like Christ was curious when he's like, be careful. And he's not making any sense to us, because we'd bought into what the world told us would actually relieve us.

Yeah. Yeah. Usually in a place like this, I'd feel super vulnerable about all I just shared and I'd say something self-deprecating. Like, I don't know, maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. But this is the only thing I know. I'm exactly right.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's, we don't mind going in this direction is my experience of you is very much and this is that the best work that you're doing

and the best things about you your viewers have no idea about and meaning like just that and you see it like there's like these minor interactions between you and your wife which are so beautiful and give such a testimony to actually like the husband, the man, the disciple, the father that you are.

And this, like this right here, and I bring it here, for two reasons. One is that I think this is like, you're not just, you're not just a podcaster. You're first and foremost a Christian. And I think that's come through in a lot of ways. And this book and the reason, and the format of the book, and some of what you're kind of talking about,

it's like so clearly that you're living a real spiritual life and that you care and that life's not a real spiritual life. life's not easy and you're really bringing like real life with all that it is and all of its messiness like to the Lord in a really beautiful way. And I and I say that just to kind of like see and to recognize it and kind of affirm it. But also like there's um this is where I think it's like the beauty of our faith is like that actually like that there's all this other stuff happening where people know you for one thing or a lot of people know you for one thing but there's a lot more happening below the scenes, that can actually be a very isolated and lonely place where we need

to be fathered by God, you know, where Jesus needs to be, like, see us and love us and be our refuge. Maybe that wasn't a smooth, like, mixture of things. But like, do you have the experience? I don't know. Like, I guess, yeah. Do you have any response to what I just said? I don't. There was a, I don't know if I fully. understand if I'm honest with you. Sure. Yeah, fair enough. I'll just say this. It's like you go out, you go to seek. People are going to be, yeah, I love your podcast. I love your podcast, right? I don't think the thing that you care about most is your podcast. I hope not. Yeah. Yeah. But I think that what you care about most is being a good man and a good husband and a good disciple and a

good father. And I think that you're actually putting a lot of time and effort into that. Thank you. I hope that's true. Yeah. I tend to be quite cynical about myself. I think that's safer. Yeah. We've all met people who should have a great people. And we're like, I don't know. So I tend to side.

But the father thinks that of me. He says beautiful thinks me all the time. Yeah. And those beautiful things, when I hear them, don't make me more solipsistic and arrogant. They actually free me to love people's poverty. Yeah. I no longer hate the girl with the blue hair

and the ripped jeans and the tets everywhere anymore. Like, I love her. But when I'm away from him, then I'm unsafe and now I need to press everyone else who's not like me away from me. Yeah. That was nice what you said about my wife. What do you mean?

Have you been around us or? No, you know, every now and then, like, I'm not a big consumer of content in general, but every now and then there's like an interaction, like with your big, like the, your announcement of like your big move. You know, she's there and she's kind of like making, so cool.

Dude, she's the best. And there's a little feedback about like, here's when I was thinking about moving or doing this and like the ways in which she's supportive and you guys are really kind of open to like bold steps for the Lord. There's a lot there. What do you mean? In a beautiful way.

Like that's just like, you know what I mean? Like it's clearly like there's a strong foundation laid. Yeah, I hope so. Yeah, she's great. She's a really good person. And marriage is really hard. Yeah, sometimes. But it's healing.

yeah yeah living with another human being well you do that but i mean in a more intense way i do that i suppose in one sense and raised children with this other human being and i remember father bonifest my spiritual father once said to me because i had a question about marriage and something that was bothering me and he's like there's enough in your marriage to teach you what you need to know which i thought was yeah like a yoda answer yeah i think i think advice is sometimes unhelpful kind of what we said earlier, you found this devotion great and now it becomes the litmus test

for you to be the faithful Catholic. It's like that with like dieting, exercising, how your marriage should look, the roles you should play in your marriage. I mean, there are general principles, I understand that, but sometimes it's unhelpful because we're also insecure about what we're doing and afraid that we're not doing it right

and so you latch onto somebody who's super confident on the internet and try to take on their views. And then you might see that your marriage is actually getting much worse. than it could of and sure yeah does that make sense yeah totally so and i'm i don't know we're also different different histories different aspirations different temperaments that sometimes advice can be unhelpful right right which is exactly where when we were kind of talking about like

how to pray and with the rosary and stuff like to really help somebody there first of all they want they have to come to me asking for help and then it's like let's talk about your very specific situation, you know, because we are just so unique in all of those, all the particulars of our states and life and our in our situations, you know, matter. With the understanding, right, but there are some clear-cut guidance that we have. But with like the, part of the confusing part, which I apologize for being confusing, and maybe sort of like imposing some of my own life experience into your life experience is um the the potential sort of like a loneliness of like success or the potential loneliness of of of this is good this is what you meant when you

said i didn't understand yeah and that's wrong talk about that what do you mean that like so um there's like three things coming together that are uh you know one of the the the realities of like this platform is it's like a conversation like a talk so if i was like given a talk i would have this clearly lined up you know so it's a little bit it's a little bit sloppy it's also the part of it that's like when i go home afterwards i'm like well i didn't say that exactly how i wanted to know you know he knows how to have a conversation i love talking to you thank you man i appreciate it is um i'll give one specific and then we can kind of get or one out there and then i can get more personal is um do you know who show hey otani is i've heard the name but i don't know okay all right so

Shohayatani is a, he's a baseball player on the Dodgers, who is the guy who both pitches at an elite level and hits at an elite level. And he is like, he has had games or seasons that have never happened before and will never happen before. That makes sense. Yeah, yeah, excuse me, he'll never happen again. Right.

And I saw this recent sort of quote attributed to his dad. I saw it on the media, so I don't know if it's totally 100% true. But the sentiment is really beautiful is his son, his dad was saying something along the lines of like, when my son does all of these things and has these great successes, I feel like my heart feels for him and almost like in a compassionate way and almost like I kind of feel bad for him

because I'm aware that now more and more expectations are being placed upon him, that it's going to be like experienced as a burden and really hard for him to reach. And I think that's just such like a really beautiful, like testimony to, like, how like somebody can be fathered in this place of their life and their experience of life. That's quite like hidden from everybody else

and probably maybe even the opposite of what other people think. And so that was just, I thought, like super beautiful the way in which his father sees him and the way which his father meets him amidst all of the crowd in a totally unique, unique, but like a hundred percent, like essential way. Does that make some sense? Yes.

Yeah. And so I was just... And are you trying to apply that to me? Well, I guess I was, I was, I was, I was, what I was sort of forcing upon you is some of the, my own experience of like, one thing is happening out there that people are experiencing you in one way as doing some public stuff. Yeah. But then there's another experience of it, which is,

kind of unique and separate and needs to be fathered. And there's a lot, there's part of the thing on my heart, which is kind of driving this, and I'll kind of go back to the rosal in the year, is just like this need for all of my heart and all of my experience. Okay, by baptism, I know that I am like a son of God and I'm not an orphan, but there are parts of my life

in my heart, which can still have an orphan experience because I haven't been fathered or mothered there. Of course. Right? And so when you were talking about like, Jesus, Jesus, our refuge, you talked about having God come and see all of, like, even the ugliest parts of your life, right? Yes, yes. And there's a way in which, like, if we don't ever look at it and we don't ever bring

it to the Lord, there's still parts of our lives which have an orphan experience, which have never been fathered by him. Yes. And I know I continue to have those parts. Yes, of course. But I also, I'm sure you do too, know the experience of having that open up to the gaze of the father and reconciling myself with those parts. Yeah.

And that makes me more loving and patient with everybody around me. Yeah. I like Song of Songs, of course, Song of Songs chapter two in particular where I already mentioned it, you know, you've got the beloved coming. Here he comes. And there's this beautiful progression where it says he's standing behind the wall. And then I think it says speaking at the window peering in through the lattice. And I like that progression of like, okay, solid wall

and then solid screen and then sort of, then a screen that also is porous or something, you know? And then he says beautiful things. And the beloved of the one speaking is turned away from him. And he says, show me your face, you know? I wish I could remember better. But to me, I've always thought that the growth in holiness is like this slow turning to let the beloved look at you

and not wanting to, right? Like burying my head back in the cleft of the rock because the beautiful words of the beloved are offensive to me. And they're offensive maybe for different reasons, but maybe I don't believe them. Maybe I think you're flattering me. Maybe I think I'm talking to myself right now

and this is all some weird delusion, you know? But I do think holiness is that maybe, what do I know? I'm not a, but a slow turning towards the loving gaze of the father and being able to sit there and have him look at you. Yeah. Yeah. And what we find, right, I think that like in this area

is that we can experience him as a refuge in a place of rest, we can find refuge and rest in his love and in his mercy even while we are still broken in perfect and even while we are still broken and perfect and even sinful. Because there is a lot of effort, I think, trying to find our refuge first. Like, there's, there's merit to trying to grow in holiness

and to root sin out of our lives, right? But there can be a sense of like, okay, like I'm trying to find my refuge, my safety, my rest in leaving the sin behind. But actually, we can, we can, even while still sinners, we can experience Jesus as a refuge and his mercy and his patience and his grace and his guidance, you know, that,

I do think, and I think it's something that comes out in Father Jacques Fleet's book, we need to actually learn how to come to him and find rest in him and be seen by him and loved by him while we are still sinners on the journey with all of our lives. Has this been a, I'm sure, it's been a process for you. How has that been true in your life? I think probably, how would I say, in some ways it's a process, maybe I'm just beginning and again or a new, which is maybe why it's like so kind of like on my heart, you know, um, and just, I would say this, like I'm, yeah, what do I think about that? Um, I think for me,

my own spiritual life, there, I've obviously lived it in some ways, but I do think I'm in a place where like the journey is just beginning in a new way. Um, and maybe this is, you know, I've been living, I've been in religious life for over 15 years. I think probably, like, there's so much of the initial part of, of religious life, which is really with your heart set on, rightly so, Christian perfection and holiness. And then as you kind of live it more, you get more and more in touch with like, oh, this, this wasn't as easy as I thought. And things that I thought would be like far behind, keep coming back again. And it's like, so you keep experiencing again and again your need for God's

mercy in a deeper and deeper way in a beautiful way. Also, particularly as a priest and somebody who walks with people as a confessor, you get more and more in touch with God's mercy for people and wanting to be a merciful place for people. So I think I'm like, I'm setting off on the journey and becoming more and more convicted of the necessity of it to, I guess I'll say that. Like, I'm on a journey going much, much deeper, much more deeper into my story, much more deeper into my heart and life. And I've obviously lived this to some degree,

but I think there's just, because I've experienced this deeper invitation, some of what I have lived, feels a little, feels a little bit little or like lacking. But just this idea, like, I guess part of it is like recognizing there are parts of my life where even,

still, like, there's parts of my life where I have not been totally fathered by God. And so I have, like, some orphan parts of my hearts. How do you detect them? How do you detect, oh, this is an orphan part? What's that experience, like? I've never honestly looked at it and brought it to God in prayer. I think it's just, it's like a door that's kind of been closed. And then how do we encounter those?

Like, what's the experience of encountering that orphan part? Is it, I mean, for me, it might be like I react inordinately to something. Mm-hmm. Or I feel shame about something or, but what do you think? Um, I'm trying to think, because it, like, I'm, like, what I'm trying, you know, there's parts of this which aren't necessarily for this platform. Sure. You know, I mean, so I'm trying to like, where, I guess I mean more generally, for those who are watching, like, I don't even, what does that mean to encounter orphan parts? How do I expect, because they know what you're talking about, but they don't know what you're talking about. So how do we help them? Yeah. And I think, yeah, I think maybe to, yeah, like to, to, to pull from a couple of sources. One is, um, so, so I'm a chaplain. I've just become a chaplain to the group called courage. Do you know what courage is, right? So I'm the chat. So it's a Catholic ministry, uh, towards.

those who experienced same sex attraction. And I did an internship with them when I was in seminary and now I'm like a chaplain. And although it's not a 12-step group, it goes through some like the 12 steps, right? And the first one, and we use this kind of Christian book that has to do with the 12 steps, is just like it really encourages, like you've got to be really honest with yourself. And you have to actually look at yourself and how you're doing and how you're not doing. this acceptance of like this for them for for for those who are in addictions it's like a powerlessness but like so for example if um i think there's a lot of people who say they're struggling with something like pornography and and you know they're kind of in this this

addiction cycle of uh fall into pornography masturbation go to confession begin again and then like repeat, you know? Um, and they're, they're going to confession and they're very, being very honest about like, okay, um, I'm going to really try better. But at some point, like, you have to actually see like, you know what? This isn't working, you know? And you have to have like a deeper honest look at like, okay, why do I keep falling into this? Um, maybe I like, I have to be really honest about like I can't have access to a personal computer in my room or I can't have a cell phone like these things actually I can't have Instagram or TikTok like they are going to lead me to sin and there is a place of like going deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper and kind

of recognizing like sometimes like we can stay on the server like no okay I'll just do better I'll just do better but you have to actually kind of get to this place of like oh actually this is a problem and it's been a problem for a long time and I actually need like to be honest about that and to see it and not just to bring the sin to God on this like level like we're going to work it out it's not that big of a deal but like actually bringing to God like oh this is like something that like I am actually powerless before and it's really beating me up and I need your help and maybe I need to like bring other people into it as well because I'm all I'm like I'm actually tech like really with how deep the problem is I'm all alone in it and I maybe I haven't even

addressed it does that kind of experience make sense of course okay yeah that's that's It's everyone's experience who isn't completely numbed out, isn't it? Sure. Yeah. Yeah. When you encounter things in yourself that you can't change. Yeah. Do you know this name, Deacon Keating? I'm blanking on his first name.

Deacon Keating, he's kind of the man. And he's a deacon who's very involved with Institute of Priestly Formation, IPF, historically. Okay. He wrote a book for priests. Yes, I've heard great things about him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've never met him in person, I've just read his books. But he wrote a book, really it's for priests, but it's called Remain in Me.

But he has a chapter in there on spiritual direction, which I print out and give to all of my spiritual directees, mostly just so they read this one line, which says spiritual direction is essentially looking at what you don't want to look at and talking about what you don't want to talk about. And I think this is, this is so important because we are self-protective. human beings are by nature, I think, self-protective. And part of an expression of that is not really totally looking at our lives or stories like head on or addressing some of our struggles with sin head on.

And so there's just things we don't want to look at and we don't want to talk about. But what that ends up doing is that there are parts of our heart where we're, if we don't go there with God, like we are still alone there. And the Father wants to, like God wants to come into and to Father and to to love and to guide us in all areas of our lives and our hearts. And so we just, there's, there is, and yeah, this interior freedom stuff we're talking about is not pop psychology, like it's the point

of the Christian life. You could imagine a scenario I've shared this, but in the gospels where somebody commits suicide, this didn't happen, I'm just saying you could imagine it. And Christ comes along and like raises him from the dead. Yeah, and the guy's like, well, thanks a lot like that's not what christ didn't just come to uh to restore our physical well-being he came to heal our hearts to liberate us yeah yeah and that he yeah he wants he wants all of us

and he can handle all of us and he wants to go to all parts of our hearts and our lives and um yeah yeah there's just parts of our lives which are still where jesus is not our refuge where Jesus isn't welcome. Yeah, for sure. Before I forget, I have to tell you about my friend. He created, let me just grab my computer. Go for it. He creates, so somebody, here's why I'm bringing it up.

It's like we are demanding of the average fella. Let's just limit it to fellas for now, who are exposed to porn at a young age, we're now demanding them a level of moral. moral courage and purity that St. Anthony of the desert didn't even claim to have, right? He was apparently met by the Queen of Sheba, appeared to hit, like the demon appeared to him

as the Queen of Sheba in a seductive way. And then we're looking at these, us, who grew up being exposed to all sorts of filth. And they're like, okay, but here's a phone and just be like Anthony of Egypt. Are you kidding me? I can't. So this guy created this thing, I'm gonna find it here.

I always forget if it's shift my phone or shift your phone? No, well, maybe. Okay, yeah, so he's got this thing called shift your phone.com. Please go get it, shift your phone.com. And it is the other one called Escape, is it? This is fantastic.

All right, so somebody told me they've got a solution to things on, to like distracting apps and porn. And I'm like, okay, no you don't. Like nobody has that. Everyone says they have that, nobody has that. you've probably heard of brick, maybe you haven't, Opal, there's these different big companies

that promise to get rid of distracting apps on the internet from your phone. There's always a very simple workaround. So when I was told about this fellow who's a Catholic, I'm like, okay, God bless him, but I, I'm, it won't work. Yeah. And like, well, he's sure it does. I'm like, okay, well, he can meet me and we'll look at it.

And so he came, comes here, here's the thing. You download this thing, shift your phone.com. By the way, I'm not getting paid to promote this guy, not a cent. That's not why I'm talking about it, just in case people are suspicious. And it just removes all distracting apps in the internet from your phone.

But it leaves things like your bank apps, Uber, Delta, or whatever your airplane app is, email, right? And it's, it's, and then the, and so you shift it from your computer and unshift it from your computer. So what I'll do on the weekends is I'll shift my phone, which gets rid of all distracting apps in the internet,

leave my computer here and go home. And so I have no internet for a weekend. Okay. And then I come here and I can unshift it. Am I making any sense? I don't know. Yeah, I'm just like, what we always look for

and things like this is, is there any place in which it really comes down to your own, where really like you hold the key or not? Because that's where- Okay, well here's the next thing. So this began as an anti-porn idea. Okay. So he's got a thing called Escape and it's about to launch.

And basically what it does is you connect your phone to the computer and you choose this option. It's free. The shift isn't, but this anti-porn thing is. When you shift it or escape, it's called. Again, everyone should go to shift your phone.com if I'm not making any sense. It removes the possibility of porn on your phone forever.

And there's no backsees. There's no way to like, how does that happen? I don't know. But I just interviewed him on my show. and you should watch the episode. Okay. Now, look, there's a million ways to skin a cat. I know that.

But he even showed me it works with third-party apps. So if you're on Instagram and you type in all sorts of depraved things, even the third-party apps get censored. Now, yeah, there's probably little things here and there that you can find, and maybe you will find. But it's phenomenal. Sorry. I believe you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyway. But for me personally, it's less the porn thing. It's more the, I don't want to waste my life scrolling on YouTube, scrolling on social media, seeing what nasty things, somebody has said somewhere. And so with this, I go home and now it's like my children want my attention and I don't have something competing with that.

I can give it to them. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think like where I'm like, where I'm not, I'll just say like a lot of these apps, etc. are helpful tools that set us up for success. We can't necessarily put all of our hope in them. I think that,

I think this is why the, like, like courage is chosen to follow the AA model is that there really is something uniquely special about a space where you feel safe, where you can be honest and where you're accompanied by other people. And that, what you're talking about is exactly right

and clearly preferable to something like this. But what this is, is it's almost like, should you get rid of all the alcohol in your home or go to AA? It's like, well, what if you did both? Correct. So get rid of all the alcohol in your home,

that's a stupid idea. You got a hip flask, get rid of that, give it to me. Then you're in a place where you can do the deepest stuff. So I feel like what shift is, is that initial, well, that's to the furthest extent possible, get rid of the stuff that's killing you, but that's not enough, I agree with you, then you gotta do the inner work.

Right, and I think this is a beautiful expression. of both and is um because like some people will be like no those things don't work get rid of them what you need is some sort of group where you're walking with people and it's like well no i think i think it is a both and i think it's both and i think this is super helpful and i think really like clear creating as much friction between you and sort of negative things as possible and as many doors as possible is very very wise and very very helpful um at the same time i I do think that people are people, and if they wanna get something,

they figure out ways to get it, you know? So it's like, like the addict in the truest sense is gonna go buy a new computer. You know what I mean? Or so like, so I do think, but that's obviously, now we're like, the barrier of entry is getting higher and higher and higher so it makes it harder and harder,

which is very helpful. So you can't put all of your hope into something like that. 100%, you know, but having something like that and a group are super helpful. My thing with a lot of this stuff is just like, and part of this is maybe the invitation of it and part of it connects to the conversation is like,

there's still, you're just not meant to journey in life alone. And even if there is like something that's difficult or sort of like addictive or sinful, is like it is really helpful, even if it's just like a confessor to have somebody who, again, so that you can, even while you're still struggling, you can be loved and seen and accompanied and even fathered there.

And I think that, yeah, having somebody else in the situation is really, it's practically helpful, but also I think it's spiritually helpful. Thank you for being a priest who hears people's confessions. I think that's just the most beautiful thing. Thank you. It's just, I wonder, I don't know. I wonder if sometimes you take for granted

what a blessing you are to people who want to confess their sins. Yeah. I met a young woman at a big Steubenville conference and I had just given a big talk on pornography and she came up to me and clearly had a lot to say but didn't know how to say it. She eventually started crying

and she talked about how she's been hooked on porn for years, you know. And it was so beautiful. It was so lovely and appropriately vulnerable. And I gave her a very affectionate side hug. Yeah. as is appropriate and things like that. And then told her to go to confession. And I said, then come tell me when you've done it.

And she came to me the next day. I barely recognized her. Her whole countenance had changed. And she just talked about how compassionate and like awesome the priest was. And I just think, man, he'll get another crown in heaven. I think like priests who are kind to hurting people in the confessional,

which in my experience has been pretty much all of them. I've, you know, people talk about having negative experiences. Maybe I've had one, but maybe I needed a bit of a kick in the pants, if I'm honest with you. Yeah. So thank you. Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, it's, um, it's, uh, for me, really, like, we know, we know, like, the most, like, objectively speaking, the most important thing that the priest does is offer the holy sacrifice to the mass, subjectively speaking, the thing that really kind of like drove my vocation was to hear confessions. And, and so it is like, I've, and that's, I think it's good for, like, I have, like, I have given, I've made out some significant life changes and sacrifices so that I can be there as a, to receive you in whatever state you're in to give you an experience of, to give you objectively God's mercy and to love you there and to create a safe place for you to encounter

the Lord there. So it's like, it is my greatest joy and it is something I love to do. And it's just like, it's so beautiful because it can be so simple. Yes. But the effect is, can be like literally eternal life changing, but also like here and now, like life changing. Hey, I would think as a priest, it's sometimes helpful to be told, you don't need to be interesting at Mass. Please don't, actually.

Just celebrate the Holy Mass. That's all we need from you. That must be a relief. You're like, oh, I can do that. Yeah. And I think something similar in confession, like that would be advice I would give to a seminarian who might ask me the advice.

It's like, same thing. Like, I don't need you to be profound. I don't need you to have any wisdom. I just need you to hear me. and to just absolve me. Like, that'll, that'll do. Yeah. That's kind of nice, takes the pressure off.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if the first one is totally true for the congregation in some experiences. Meaning you don't have to be interesting at Mass, right? Like, there is, like, you don't have. The homily, you mean? Yeah, there is something in which, right, we talk about the sacraments,

the exoperia, barado, versus. exoperate operantes, like that, which just happens in a sacrifice, like in the mass, objectively speaking. The second refers to like the subjective experience. Like good preaching is helpful. Yes. You're right. That's right. That's right. If people are going to mass, but they're not super interested, actually some sort of something interesting and something even humorous can be really helpful for capturing them, making them feel safe and bringing them in. Great point. You know, because that is something that gets thrown out about there. And it's like, Well, if you were a priest and you went and you just did everything without any humanity and very, very cold, would mass happen? Would people receive communion 100%? Is there space for more? I think so. You know, for an even richer, fuller experience of God in his church and his word and his sacrament. There is something that being a, there's a reason we have homiletics class and it's not. Yeah. And there's a reason that you give a homily and don't just read.

Anthony Padder was homilies. Yeah. Because you're talking to me now in this culture at this time. Right. Right. And there's just like, there are, there's people who are bought in and who like, here, give me,

give me something rich and full and kind of direct right now. There's people who aren't, for whom actually humor is like really helpful for bringing them in so that they can receive the substantial thing. Within the sacrament of confession is like, there's a lot,

it's a little bit, And again, because it's like, okay, just give me, you know, give me absolution and get me going. That's not what you said. But there is some of that out there. And it's like sometimes that is true and that's what's necessary. When I'm going to confession, I go to the same guys and really I'm like, I'm looking to, I'm not looking for any counsel. And a lot of us who are hearing confession of priests don't do it.

There are people who, like, it is helpful to like receive them and offering some encouraging words and things like that. So I don't think it has to be, it definitely doesn't have to be profound. Neither of them have to be profound, but like sincere. And I think since, yeah, sincere of like a sincere heart of mercy for these people is going to be helpful for them experiencing God's mercy, even though if you're kind of not given them much, absolution still going to happen. Same for mass.

Like sincerity, a sincere concern speaking to your flock meeting them where they're at. and it's just if people think experience you as being sincere and invested in them they're not going to care if you're not that if your homilies aren't that good and you're not that wise or you can't sing or whatever you know people people actually is the bar for somebody loving you and being grateful for you as a priest is actually pretty low people are very generous and they're very very kind and grateful to them to us if we're praying and we're sincere you know totally Have you had many people come to you and say, like it's been 20, 30, 40 years since my confession?

Yeah, you get that. That must be wonderful. Like that might be an example where you want to give a little bit more of encouragement. Yeah, yeah, and it's all, yeah, 100%. 100%. But we, like, so what's somewhat of a gift for, so CFRs, like some of the CFR, Francis Can Farrier with the Renewal,

something that's very kind of unique about us is we don't run parishes. So I'm not consistently in that confession window that most people have. We generally have places where we have some more space, retreats, we have events, people coming to the friary. So I don't have, you know, 45 minutes to get through with 30 people. So we actually, we tend to have a lot more space

for being with people and accompanying them and hearing them and things like that. But if it's been a person in 50 years, if it's been a person who, you know, is falling into mortal sin, you know, in the last week when their last confession was. Like, it's, it's, the angels rejoice for both. Yeah.

Yeah. How are vocations with the friars of the renewal and what does that say more generally about the day and age in which we live, the hunger people have, whatever? Yeah, the, I think our experience, is pretty common with overall the universal experience of religious orders and seminaries.

For us, I'll just speak about us, though, like, interest is very, very high and is consistently been high. Whether or not it's at an all-time high, I don't know, but it's very high. And so we get, presumably hundreds of people of young men who reach out with an initial inquiry. At that point, there's like a conversation, there's, there's, like, a little bit of like a questionnaire.

There's like a first round of vetting before we would invite somebody for what we call like a cum and see, like a discernment retreat. And then there's like, you know, that's going to happen a couple of times and we're going to kind of get the know guys where they're at. The thing is, and this is kind of what I was touching on, is like the interest and the sincerity are there. The question, I think, for most of us, for most guys across the board, is the capacity question. Do they have the human and spiritual foundation necessary to live this life in a way which is fruitful and faithful and even joyful for their whole lives?

And that's the thing that is harder and harder to find. Yeah, because, I mean, how many years are you? before you're ordained in the CFRs? So we, from what point? From when you enter. From when you enter, okay. So from when you enter, the first final, we don't start seminary until after final vows.

So the first opportunity for final vows is gonna be six years. And then it's gonna be four to eight years of studies depending on what academic background you had before you joined us. So it could be eight or more years before you're ordained a priest? Right now it's pretty close to nine,

Nine or ten is going to be the minimum. Okay. So I guess, so then my question is, how formed do you need somebody who's about to undergo nine years of formation? You know, like, what is it you're looking for that you're like, okay, this person has what we can work with? Yeah, there's a priest who's a, like a psychologist who had this line that when you, when you enter into like your vocation or religious life,

he was talking about, you want, he said, everybody has baggage, but you want to have it down to a carry-on. Love it. And I think that communicates it well. Love that so, so much. Because it's not, we're not, we're not like, we're not like a therapeutic community.

And so, like, we're, like, there are certain things in the area of like, that's good advice for marriage too, by the way. Everyone's got baggage, we want to live it to a carry-on. Right, right. And so there, there, there, That's the thing. It's like if there are some major thing, the on ramp to entering with us

has gotten longer and longer at the service of getting us down to a carry-on. So if guys need some more extensive formation, they need some more extensive counseling, whatever it is, we're going to ask them to do that before entering because our life has like significant stresses built into it, which may not be helpful for some of the healing that needs to happen.

And so that's the idea. It's like you've got to get them down to a place where the, if you will, the intensity and the pressures of this life are formative and transformative as opposed to something that, like, breaks them down and deteriorates them. And that's going to be kind of, like, uniquely discerned for each man. What is this year I've heard about?

I forget the name of it. Propidu. Thank you. Yep. What is that year? Was this John Paul II's sort of idea or where did it come from? Well, maybe I don't know, but I can just talk about the current reality.

I don't know the whole history. And so essentially, it's a year of formation. I think it's really supposed to be spiritual formation for diocesan seminarians before they start academic studies. Okay. Spiritual formation. What about human formation? Human and spiritual. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I would say it's very much both. But I'll say very much human and spiritual. I think it's intentionally not supposed to be academic and there's probably limited past, there's like four pillars of formation, human, spiritual, academic, intellectual, and then pastoral. So I think it's heavy on the human and spiritual.

And I don't think it's a brand new concept, but it's now that it's mandatory, I believe, is new. And do you all do that too? We do, we have, essentially we've already done it. So our novitiate and formation, okay, posthalancy, we've done at times, in our situation six, essentially,

before entering seminary. Yeah, what's, I mean, do you find that people, obviously any man who's interested in joining the friars or the sisters are still happening, right? Yep, sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Or any woman who's joining the sisters understands what they're getting themselves into,

they're obviously attracted to it. So I would imagine many of them are somewhat enthusiastic about leaving the kind of internet space behind, but what is that experience like for people who just join? For a friar or for a postulent, or for a Dawson guy? No, for y'all. Okay.

Because they're more, I understand. So that year probably may require seminarians for diocesan, for the diocese to maybe shed some of that as well. But y'all do it more hardcore. We do it more hardcore. I guess, so certainly in propudic spaces, they are almost, it's going to be unique to different seminaries. I think they all have some sort of restrictions on their access to a cell phone, at least during the week. But I think for the whole time.

So that is like something they're doing. For us, I can, I can, for me, so I entered in 2009, which is somewhat unique because I never had a smartphone. And so I don't, I don't, I can't totally 100% speak into the current guy's experience. Most of us, though, all of the things that feel hardcore or feel like a lot are exciting for a young man. Like it feels fun, it feels good to leave that stuff behind. It feels great to go into a place where you can't call anybody, you don't have any money, you're sleeping on like a mat on the ground,

you're wearing sandals when it's winter, all of that stuff at the very beginning, it's very romantic. So I think probably if it is hard or whatever, the fun of it, the romance of it, they're like, oh, I'm really doing it, probably helps quite a bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah, kind of gives you the boost of whatever, that you need. And then y'all don't take typically men over a certain age, correct? Yeah, correct. That's a great idea.

Yeah. As someone who's 42, I don't know if I could just change my life entirely at this point. Do you feel that as well? Oh, 100%. Yeah. You kind of solidify a little. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's bend in the joints.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and unfortunately, I'm a lot less, if you will, in a good way, like maybe easy to work with or to form in new experiences. Like my culture's pretty established, you know. My routines are pretty established, things like that. And that's what it comes down to is with all the formation stuff and the discernment of a guy entering is it's setting them up for success. And the older you get, you know, the concrete, if you will, gets more and more hardened and beginning a radically new, like, formation with some pretty, like, significant, like, expectations that might be different than what you've lived for 38 years.

It just gets harder and harder. And so we just, and maybe you can do it for three years, but we don't want you to do it for four. or five years, knowing it's probably not gonna work out, and you just gave four or five years of your life, and you entered at 38, and now you're 43, and you're kind of starting. Yeah, from scratch. And not to mention what it takes from the friars,

as you said, you're not a therapeutic center. You don't exist to help people get their stuff together. Yeah, yeah, and yeah. If it does as a consequence, then pray to be the Lord, but. We're there to help you. I think probably you can enter posulancy with two carry-ons. but through postulity and novish it yeah that's the so is it postulancy then noviti so for us the first thing is pausiancy which is 10 months novitiate is one year okay so those two and then you would make

your first vows those two years we're probably trying to get it down from two carry-ons to one and then you know what I mean and then um what happens is you so there is there is a good amount of time and resources put into actually serving the guy but at the same time understanding that you're going to be living in very close proximity with a bunch of people all the time. You're not going to be just going golfing when you want to be golfing. You're going to be waking up early, staying up late. So that's what I'm saying. It's like not a therapeutic community is it's like there's a whole lot of stresses that

you're going to be entering into that just are like super real. And so we're going to make other resources available. But it's not going to be the easiest space. And then what happens is you make vows and maybe you're allowed to bring on like a carry-on, maybe even a backpack into vows. But the hard part is that you make final vows and then five more years later and then all of a sudden you've found you've got like,

you thought you had it down to a carry-on, but now you've got like two checked baggage bags that you didn't, you have to go and revisit and work on kind of, that's kind of life. I had the perception and it may not be correct. I had the perception maybe, you know, 20 years ago that religious orders were like begging people to join them. The perception I have today,

at least for the religious orders that I interact with and respect a great deal, is that y'all turn away a lot of people. Was there something that religious orders learn? Do you think that perception is right? Maybe I just had that perception because I was a young single guy who was open. Yeah. Yeah, I think you probably just got informed

to the reality that was. Yeah, and at some point we might have to, is, so there's always been a certain, external encouragement and push to promote vocations right and so you see that and there is there is a sense of like we're trying to look for vocations things like that um even some yeah I think actually you're probably right like in some spaces particularly really struggling spaces like by spaces I mean orders it might even have the feel of like recruitment yeah by the way never got that from the CFRs I went live with the CFRs and if anything they were like I don't know yeah yeah and we've

we've gotten like there's like a like a there's like a lot of guys early early on, like, reached out, including myself and made, like, phone calls and, like, sent letters and never got responses. Yeah. And there was a part of that which is framed as, like, look, they're not desperate. You got to want it. But there's also a part of, like, well, maybe that's just, like, a little bit disrespectful. Or disorganized. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Disorganization is not a Franciscan virtue or any virtue, even though sometimes we pretend it is. But I think what it, like, and this is where it's so hard is actually, I think it's really hard because it's really hard to put into words

how painful and hurtful it is for a man or woman to be pursuing religious life or priesthood and to be told no. Especially if they've been with you for a few years too, right? Correct. But yes, I think that can be hard. I think it actually is probably some of the conversations and the reasons why somebody might not be,

permitted entry and the form those takes are just, they're really like heartbreaking for a lot of people and crushing and I don't know the remedy. Because the thing is, if you've been with us for five years, at least we've gotten to know you and to journey with you. But what happens a lot of times is like there's certain things that come up of your history or your story that you're now presenting with this women's religious

order that you think is the most beautiful thing and you want to give your heart as a bright of Christ and then they have a conversation with you and they say you're not going to be a this this isn't going to be a good fit that is really really hard and and we come in so many people come in with the idea of like if I want to do this and I feel that drawn the desire like of course they're going to say yes and the idea of getting no is like totally unheard of and then it happens and sometimes it has to deal with some like really difficult life experiences and things like that and it's just like it's really

yeah I could see people feeling betrayed I came here I laid it all out I feel I'm being called to this and so you're rejecting me when I've been vulnerable with you in good faith oh I could see that going poorly right and I understand what you have to do it, but I can see how it could be received negatively. And they're trying, and so, like, their, their, their subject of experience from, from their point of view is I, I've just been told essentially that I'm too broken to give my life to Jesus.

And, um, that's not what's happening and that's not what's being said. Um, but that is the, like, the experience and that is heartbreaking. And, and, and, and, and that's, really hard. Why these things happen, right? Like, what's, what's really happening is that you're, you're ultimately being like, so there's, there's a, there's a, there's a difficulty if, if the young person has made, um, sort of being chosen and loved and even like, if you will, wedded to God, like being chosen and sort of like in perfect, in total union with God is synonymous with religious life. And we forget that God actually chooses, the thing that makes us chosen, beloved by God, is both our baptism and

his, like, death on the cross for us, right? And we can kind of put all, like, put all of this unto religious life. And so it's like, okay, what we're saying is this path, like, isn't going to be helpful for you on a human level and it's not going to be helpful for you in your relationship with Jesus, and that he's trying to love you and to choose you and to betroth you to himself through a different means. And that you may, what would happen, is if you live this life probably for five years or for 10 years is you would hate it and you'd find it crushing and it would break you

and it would take you 10 years to be like really deeply hurt because the stresses of this life for you and your situation aren't actually going to be fruitful they're going to actually be like really hurtful and problematic and we have the experience of a lot of centuries

of discerning this with people and can kind of help get out ahead of this, but it's really hard to have that conversation. We don't necessarily have the resources to walk with everybody for three or four years who we have to say no to. So it's just like it's, it's hard. Thank you. Are there any developments with the Franciscans that you want to talk about? I heard rumor that perhaps you were establishing some hermitages or something like this. I don't know all of. Yeah. So like, so what's going on with us? We're coming up to the, you know, with the 800 year of the anniversary of St. Francis,

we're gonna try and do something for that. 800 years. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Since the death of the life or death of St. Francis. Right now, like what's new with us is, so the hermitage thing that you're calling to mind is that we have a practice of once a month, each friar makes a hermitage, which is essentially 48 hours of personal individual retreat.

So you go away. and we have a retreat center that's for us that has hermitages, which is kind of like a little cabin with a chapel where guys go and pray. And so we're continuing to grow that and to build it, but that's like, beautiful.

That's for our use. Yeah, I'm gonna let it come. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, you're on the fence, you know, you're on the fence. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know some people. So, you know what I mean? So there's, well, it's beautiful.

I had a beautiful priest who I love very much. He says, Father Ken Barker, he founded a community in Australia called the missionaries of God's love. And he's the founder and every month he'll look at his calendar and he'll choose two days. Because it doesn't sound overwhelming when you do that at the start of every month.

It sounds really overwhelming when you're in the middle of a month and you're looking for two days. I just think that's really beautiful. I need to do something like that, I think. Yeah, I have a friend, because I kind of wrote a book that kind of helped, like this was years ago,

helped propose sort of like some of what our practices could look like for lay people. And I was just out in Nebraska with a very good friend of mine. And he was like what it looks, he's a father with, I believe they have six or seven kids. I think they have six kids. I was just with them, I could count, but I'm not, it would be, anyway, anyway.

So what, like once a month, he takes an afternoon, or he takes a morning and he goes to where there's a chapel and he like, he gets two or three hours of prayer. He's in front of the Blessed Sacrament. He, like, reviews his month. He looks forward to the next month. His wife kind of has the kids and the family.

So I think, like, the idea of having once a month a little bit more time set aside for prayer, I think it actually can work and apply for lay people as well. And I think it's like, I think it would be a good thing to do. I think last time we were on, weren't we, like, hammering out some ideas for a new third order of Francis? Yeah. Do you remember any other details of that? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Go ahead. Well, I just think it'd be really beautiful to have something associated with the fries of anew. Because you guys are so loved, eh? There's a lot of responsibility on your shoulders. People really respect you. And you personally, but also your religious order, it's just every friar of the renewal I've met,

I've just been so impressed by. Grateful, yeah. And they're all different and zany and beautiful. Yeah, yeah. But really terrific. I feel the same way about the sisters of life and every really religious order maybe that began or flourished under the pontificate of John Paul II

or after I'm just so, and I know I don't see the inner workings. Just like you don't see the inner workings of my marriage and family, you know, so it might be a superficial thing. But like we were saying earlier, like when you come to the Lord, do you experience your life becoming better? One of the things you start experiencing is joy.

Yep. And that's what I see when I meet with Talk of the Friars. That's my personal experience. It's just there's a joy. and I, yeah, joy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love being at CFR and I love this order and really like a huge

part of my work and my desire. Even though I might be doing it, it really is at the service of like there's this beautiful work happening I think of by God in this order and I want to like give my life to help me to grow it and to share it. And, and I mean this, like, I was drawn to sort of the intensity and the poverty of my order. The gift I didn't expect that has been a profound gift at the level of the most profound

is actually been the fraternity. And like what a gift it is to every day be surrounded by people who are like praying and sacrificing and being generous. Like, it's, it's easy to have a, it's easier to have a joyful and hope-filled, like, hermeneutic of the world when you're surrounded by these good men, sinful men, nonetheless, but like good men, sincere men really seeking the Lord and to love the poor and to love the church and to love the brothers. Like, it's a huge, it's a huge gift. So I love it. I love the order. I love what God's doing. And, you know, there's only 140 of us, is. So there's not a lot of us, you know. So we're trying our best and we're out there. But I say that because we're like kind of exploring a third order, but I don't know that we'll have to,

we're just still testing and seeing if we have the infrastructure to really. Yeah, if you're gonna do it. You have another thing. Yeah. Yeah. All right, so we have a question from producer Maria, who popped her head in earlier and said she wants to know, when praying the rosary, you know, you think to yourself,

am I supposed to be thinking of the words of the Hail Mary? Or am I supposed to be thinking of the mystery? because I actually cannot do both. Have you got that question before? And what's the answer? Yeah, yeah. The, what's making us sort of like praying the rosary is we have the intention, I would say,

of kind of giving our mind and hearts to one of three things or a collection of three things. The one to whom we are praying, right? The words that we are praying, the prayers themselves or the mystery that we are like meditating upon. And so I think, So for example, if a mother had gone through something

and there's like, you just lost somebody and you're praying the rosary and you can't think about anything, but you're like surrendering your life to God through the praying of the road, like the rosary. You're not thinking about the words. You're not meditating on the mysteries, but you're like making an offering of your heart to the Lord. Like that's 100% like a faithful praying of the rosary.

If you're paying attention to the words, beautiful. But the reality is this. This is like it, like I think oftentimes the words become a little bit of like the soft backdrop at the service. of staying before the Lord and then meditating on the mysteries. So I think it's, if you, yeah, this is just like a good principle. Like if you can't do something, there's probably, you're probably doing okay.

You know what I mean? It's like you can't be asked to do something that you can't do. So if your mind can't think and focus on two things at once, you're probably not being asked to focus on two things at once. And so if, but we do want to try and pay attention to at least the one we're praying to, the words we're saying, or the mystery, yeah. Okay. Bill says, with all the good that you and others do

via things like Ascension and Rosary in a year, do you experience spiritual warfare? If so, what does it typically look like and how do you fight back? How long do you want these answers? Well, let's see, how many do we have? We have 20 questions. Okay.

So I don't view the world through the paradigm of like spiritual warfare. Love it. So I experienced normal human life in temptation and struggle. And I don't know if it's increased by anything I'm doing or not. Love it.

Yeah. Okay. How can modern lay Catholics asks Liz Anderson? Living in the West, one of the wealthiest places and times, practically live out Jesus's hard teachings related to the poor, money, etc. Sometimes I feel like our only hope for heaven is to give everything we have to the poor. That's not true.

The second part, the only hope you have is to give you money to the poor. it's um all how do i want to the answer is a little bit more complex and complicated um i don't i'm just going to i wrote a book habits for holiness and it has a chapter which addresses this in a little bit more detail i would i would just the principle i would put out before us here is like the principle of contentment can you sort of discern what you actually need say okay this is what we need and then anything above that be generous with it towards the poor and there is is a place for objectively recognizing, okay, for my human life, here's actually what we need,

here's what's healthy, that can include money for something like vacations, like, which are a really great human experience, particularly for family life. Okay, what's our budget? What do we need in anything, like anything above that we're gonna be generous with? So for example, it's like we have a kitchen, it works,

we're happy with it, we don't need to be remodeling the house constantly. That money would be very well suited towards those who don't have, things like. that. That's my most basic answer. You don't have to give everything up. Can you practice sort of discerning what you actually need and then be generous with what's above that? Okay, this might be misunderstood, but in a way that the option is just give everything up is maybe a cop-out. Because it's kind of a lot more difficult to live what you're just saying. Let's discern and then what

if we didn't get this new thing, we did that. Like how many people are doing that? Am I doing that? I don't know if I'm doing that. Yeah. That's good. Yeah. Because I'm, well, maybe it's more my personality. I tend to be all or nothing. So I find it more difficult to be thoughtful about things. Yeah. I'm prudent about things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. And it's super clear. Meaning there's a lot more clarity of it's all or nothing. But this discernment is a little bit messier. Could Father Mark beat Matt Fred in a basketball game? Yes. Yes. Next question. Clisbaudel says, how, if at all, does being a public figure, particularly in the area of digital media consumed on phones,

make living your vocation as a Franciscan of the friar, more or less difficult? Franciscan of the renewal, sorry, more or less difficult. Yeah, my, it almost has no effect, except that I have to spend time allocated towards thinking about things to say. But right, like, the Rosary podcast, it's filmed by myself in a room in the friary.

My Ascension videos is assumed by myself, filmed by myself in a room in the friary, like, there's, yeah, with the other, the counterpoint is that I experience very much my life and what's happening right now as like an experience of like the prodigal son returning home and the father throws him this like banquet is a lot of the affirmation, encouragement I get from people is like me being there and being loved by people at the sort of banquet

my father through for me. And so I actually experienced it very deeply as an expression of the father's love for me. So it is actually kind of encouraging in my, for myself as a disciple's son. Hunter says, what's something you learned while recording Rosary in a year? It's way more work to record a podcast like that than I ever expected.

How did you do it practically? Still doing it. Oh, right, but presumably not just like doing one a day. You're probably batch recording them. Yeah, but I was surprised by how little batch recording I could do. I found my ceiling to be about four. four or five episodes a day.

Oh, that sounds about right. Which, like, it's kind of like I'm pretty, pretty spent after that, and I still haven't gotten through the whole week, you know? Yeah. So it was a lot, and it took, you know, I started months before it actually came out. Was there a point where you were afraid that you wouldn't be able to continue? No. No, because I was in, you know.

But there was, I thought I might be done early in the year and scheduled stuff, for example, like a lent. Oh, so yeah, so you're still record. them now in November yeah good on you yeah yeah I'm about a month ahead but I'm coming in for a landing but it's been a lot but okay so that wasn't really what he was looking for what did what have I learned a few things that have stood out let me think about it one gosh there's a lot of things I don't know I I'll just say for now I've really enjoyed the experience I had with praying for art. There's a section of it

where we are like looking at a sacred art image that is about one of the mysteries. And I found actually learning about that and praying with that and speaking about that. So a huge source of grace. So a huge new kind of way of praying and place the way to find like nourishment for prayer came through that. Yeah. What about the history of the rosary or anything like that? Did you know a lot about that? No, I had to do a study of it,

and I kind of like did a deep dive. I think I was deeply, profoundly moved by how it's, of course, the masses of the prayer par excellence. But as far as like, it's just like a perfect way of praying, both humanly speaking and spiritually speaking, and it, which is the fruit of like really decades of tweaks and fine-tuning. And even like we kind of, when we're talking about it, like, humanly, how it brings us to a place of, like, a greater calm and stillness just by, if we actually

prayerfully say the rosary, like, it's naturally so helpful. But I did a bit of a dive on the history. And then, yeah, but I did know a little bit about that already. This person says, my son is in middle school and has a desire to discern religious life in the do you have any suggestions as to how I can support him? Right now, like good men, men make good religious, make good priests, make good husbands. And so really just continuing to form him and to protect him as a man and developing as a man, teaching him how to pray, talking to him, teaching him how to like ask questions to share his heart to express his experiences.

All of that is super helpful. protect him protect him in a healthy way and of course like some introduction to religious here or there I think is also but primarily it's just about really forming a good man right now Liz says thank you father Mark Mary for the rosary and he and my husband is not a Catholic but he's been doing it with me and we'll sometimes pray the rosary on his own nice how many emails or messages have you gotten like that from people who want yeah a handful a good a good amount yeah more than a handful I guess Good.

Philip Z says, doing public media activity, do you get any support from other, not directly engaged friars, diocese and priests and bishops, any encouragement? I don't know what that means. You encounter priests who are glad

for the work that you're doing. Yeah, you get a lot of feedback that's positive, folks who use it for, like, their youth ministry or in their Catholic schools, things like that. But we don't really,

if that was part of the question, is like, I don't have like a ghost writer behind the scenes who's like a friar who's like, like helping me produce content or anything like that. I'm kind of on my own with it. Sarah Sopko says, not entirely sure what the interview will pertain.

I did ask people to ask these questions. They haven't watched this, just to those who are watching. But I'd love to know what has been the biggest challenge in recent years being present in social media or the public eye. Yeah, I think for me,

like the big thing that I'm really kind of hoping to step into, to in a different way next year is for like eight years, I've been doing media stuff and putting out, like for 2025 I've put out like nine talks a week, wrote in a couple, written a couple of books. I kind of, I kind of wanna take some space away from that, just at the service of a greater sort of like interior stillness

at the service of a greater like intimacy with the Lord. And so that, the cost for me isn't have so much to do with the social media as much to the amount of talks given. And so to kind of create some space to kind of be renewed in the Lord and in some rest in the Lord is kind of what I'm moving towards. Samantha says, which mystery of the Rosary is your favorite to meditate upon and why?

And then which mystery do you find most challenging and why? I find the most immediately accessible, probably the sorrowful mysteries. Yeah. You know, and I think that's probably pretty human. And I think on the first, flip site, which I think is interesting, is that some of the less accessible would be the glorious, because it's a little bit more of, okay, like, how do I understand what the Lord's

ascension means for me in a way which is concrete and accessible? So I think that, or the transfiguration. Have you found a particular rosary meditation book or something that you've used or have used, do use that's been helpful? This is not a soft self in my books. No, I use the Gospels. Yeah. Yeah. I just picked up a little beautiful book by Bishop Athanasia Schneider, which has beautiful mysteries. This is called Salvea Regina. I found that very helpful.

Yeah, I find it helpful sometimes just to go back to the Gospels and to do a real lexio on each of them so that you have more fuel to burn, as it were. Yep, of course. In your mysteries. I also have been reading the Cantana oria. I think that's how you pronounce it. Aquinas is commentary on the Gospels using just the meditation to the fathers.

because there's a lot there too. Yeah, and I do think actually meditation on the rosary, on the mysteries presupposes Lexa de Vina with the Gospels. That's good. Yeah. Why is your habit gray? So I'm a Franciscan friar of the renewal.

Our roots, we had eight founders in 1987 and they were all capagins and the capuchin habit is brown, ours is gray, in part because we are a different order, so it's somewhat practical. In part maybe is because if you look at like Francis's habit, Francis's habit. It would have been more grayish. But really it's because we want to be like capuchins, but we're not capuchins. So we're gray instead of brown. Have you felt, has there been

any animosity between the capricians and y'all? Even on the down low? Not in not now, not at all. When we meet each other, it's very much like, oh, you're like, you're like, you're like, we're like the same. Probably when the break happened, you know, in 87, probably there was some more animosity with those folks, but those of us who are in the second generation, if it will. You know, I wonder if it's like how Benedict's hope in allowing the Latin Mass when he did was that it would influence the Novus Order, right?

And I wonder if y'all did that to the Capuchins because whenever I meet the Capuchins today, they seem hardcore, they're wearing the habit. It's not like back in the 90s when they were wearing slacks and saying, call me Jeff. Yeah, I think the religious life in the United States has actually gone through a significant renewal

in the last 30 years. From my understanding, I'm not like a historian. I've heard other people say this. I do think that our order was helpful in that in some ways, while also the recipient of it and others. So, but I think orders and themselves across the board are going to become more deeply living their charisms and their identities.

Real quick, Franciscanfriars.com, is that your website? Yeah. So if someone, I know we've been talking about vocations and declining people, but if someone wanted to get declined, how would they do that? Well, I'm just joking. If somebody feels God might be calling them to this life, Franciscanfriars.com, probably forward slash vocations.

I don't know exactly if that's, is that. I'll tell you. Vocations. Yep. There you go. Well, at least, no, that's just about France. Francis of Assisi, doesn't do anything. But you click vocations.

Oh, and then you go under vocations and then there's a bunch of different things you can choose for. We're working on getting that a little bit more clear. Come and see and, yeah, good stuff. How's New York these days? I don't know New York being any different. I mean, New York is a great place for what we do. Yeah.

Take care of the poor. Yeah, and I mean, there's like 9 million people in a small area, so if you want to stay busy as a priest, there's plenty to do. Yeah, good stuff. I love it. C.J. Sharp says, has it been easier to attach from worldly things?

being in the setting that you're in. Do you feel like detachment would be harder if you were in a different scenario? Suggestions on, and then he wants to know, suggestions on detachment for those of us who live the family life. Love your work. God bless from Steubenville. What's the question? Okay, my state of life.

So certainly our, my state of life is extremely helpful for detachment from worldly things insofar as that I'm with a group who's doing it who's doing it and expected to do it and all that sort of stuff. For family life, discernment, communication. I think the starting point, the starting point, it's annoying, but it's true,

is your relationship with the media in the phone. I think that's the number one way, like the wealth or luxury that people should be discerning. And then again, just a discernment, especially like when you're doing stuff, like do I want this, do I need it? Is there a better way to, and it creating certain, like, giving yourself like a budget each month of how much you're going

to give away, things like that. Some of that stuff's helpful. What's your favorite book on St. Francis of Assisi? My favorite book, it is the, it's funny. It's this little green book that no one's ever heard of, and I think it's out of print. I think the author's like Gratian. And I think it's called, like, I know Christ. We, oh, is it like blue and green? It's just, it's not. It's not a beautiful cover. I think I know what it is. Back in the day. I know Christ.

Yeah. Yeah. I read that book. Okay. Yeah. Back in my discernment of the Friars days. Yeah.

Yeah. So that's the one that I would start with. Well, no, that's not the one I would start with because you're not going to be able to find it. I'm finding it right now. But how much is it? Can you get it? $5.95.

Okay. Well, I take it back. I take it back. It's there. I thought it was one of these books that was, like, out of print. So it's like, oh, you nailed it. You even got the color right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And it's on Francis, but it's on Franciscan spirituality. And I think it like nails it. Wow. And it, yeah, it gives us clearly that Francis is a man who like love the cross and it was always before him. And I think it's so important. Because as a Franciscan and our spirituality is like the meditation on the cross has to be kind of like at the heart of our own spirituality. He was such a remarkable person that I think that if Christianity ended, not that it would, and then a hundred years from now, someone had to write down like the top 100 human beings who ever lived.

I wouldn't be surprised if he made the list. Yeah. Like, what a mammoth figure. What happened back then? Some kind of earthquake went off in humanity and society in the world that was Francis of Assisi. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and, you know, obviously, like the Dominican...

were raised up at that time as well. There was just something... Yeah, but I mean, next to Dominic, I mean, he kind of... He covers... No comment. Maybe not next to Aquinas, right? But yeah, like his personal witness was...

By the way, thank you to all the Dominicans for popularizing the devotion to the rosary, which I as a Franciscan recently took advantage of in a positive way. Do you get much of that? There's just, like, one guy made a joke about it in a playful way. Yeah, Francis, I'm so interested in, I mean, hopefully, yeah, obviously I'm interested in Francis. What's kind of struck me recently, too, is just, um, so, like, Francis has a human experience

of being, like, publicly rejected and being disowned by his dad. And that just doesn't go away. And I really believe some of the, like, radicality and the intensity of his search of his following of Christ was his, like, I'm made for, like, the love of a father, and Jesus is the way in which I come to know the father, and the father's revealed to me. And I just, yeah. I remember being so impressed with him during my trip to World Youth Day in Rome. That's when I converted, that I thought, if I had, I would have made a religion out of Francis if I could have. This is when I was an atheist, agnostic, you know.

He's just remarkable. Yeah. I mean, yeah, if that kind of effect had have come about through some other non-Christian spiritual experience, it would absolutely be its own. religion. If it was rooted in actual Francis, it would have just led you to Catholicism. So that's the thing that I love about him. It's like he was the most, he was a truly, truly, truly profoundly, deeply Catholic man. And I think that's so important because all of his radicality and all of his zeal stayed in the heart of the church. You know what's beautiful is the basilica in Padua? Never been. I was shocked. Yeah, I'm always ready to be disappointed by a good church always. It's just completely cynical. And it is one of the most beautiful churches I've

seen. Yeah. What about it? It was grand and proportionate and beautiful, which I guess is part of what being beautiful means. It also has a sort of offshoot with all of his relics, including his vocal cords and his habit and things like this. And it was really prayerful. Maybe that's also, you know, it's quite disappointing when you mosey on into these churches. in Europe just to discover that they're a museum filled with people who don't care about the Blessed Sacrament. Yeah. But this was not like that.

This was very, it felt very vibrant with the faith. Have you been to a CC? Yeah. I mean, I loved a CC. I haven't been, so I don't know. Oh, come on. Why? Can I get you a flight there?

I'll buy you a flight there. I appreciate that. God's timing. Yeah. Well, let me know if you'd like that. All right. I'd be happy to repay the favor for all our wonderful conversation.

on this show. But yeah, it was excellent. I mean, I went there last year with my good wife and children. We had a beautiful time. I will say, what we said in Airbnb, and the fella,

his cynicism about the place, if it maybe infected me a little bit, he grew up in a CC. Okay. Which I guess is rare. But he called it a medieval Disneyland. And so the reason it looks just like something you might expect

from the 13th century is because it's very intense. made that way to bring in the mullah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't care. Shut up. I still don't care.

I don't want to know. Is that the only reason that it is preserved the way it is? Probably not. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And even if it was, well, at least we're still going to something that looks like that and it was really beautiful.

And no, I got to go out to the outskirts where Francis would pray and his little cave where he would pray and things like that. Yeah. It's beautiful. And the paintings are very unique. The frescoes, is that what they call them? I don't even sure if I know what that word means. Fresco is like a particular way of doing.

Well, I take it back. I'm just going to say paintings. Okay. That's down to my level. These paintings in the church were beautiful. They seemed to kind of bridge the gap between what you imagine when you think of like Western Christian paintings at Eastern iconography.

Yeah. It was really beautiful. Yeah. We've gotten to, it's now, we have guys in, we call it temporary formation for about four years. And I think part of our plan now is for everyone in their, we call it TP formation to go at once. So I think every four years,

they're starting to take met information on pilgrimage to a C.C., but that, you know, was after my time. I feel like you've got to complain to the upper management about the fact that you've never been there. I, I mean, I had a conversation yesterday here for about an hour with somebody talking,

pitching to me, talking to me brainstorming through a potential pilgrimage to a C.C. Yeah? The options are there. I'm not the biggest pilgrimage guy in the world. I don't like pilgrimages. I'm kind of...

Mainly because I don't like people or buses. Oh, okay. Well, I'm more like a mission trip guy. So that's probably the number one thing. Yeah. But I also am a Franciscan and Assisi's important in places. They're important in Catholic worldview. So when God calls me, I'll go.

Let's see. Fresco. I need to figure this out. Fresco, here we go. Is a technique of mural painting executed upon freshly laid lime plight. faster. Water is used as the vehicle for the dry powder pigment to merge something, something. There we go. Yeah, here's what I mean, even though no one else can see this and so it's going to upset everybody. But do you see that kind of, see that?

Yes, yes, yes, yes. Okay, I'm familiar with, yeah, I see the artwork. I've seen the artwork. You see what I mean when I say? It seems to bridge western east in some sense. I do. Yeah. Yeah. It's beautiful. Any other thoughts on the rosary before we wrap up? Any other thoughts on the rosary before. going to be asked this. Hey, I want to show everyone this book. This book is by my good friend Gabby Casillo.

Nice one. And I'd say this is the best book I've ever read on the rosary. So the power of the rosary by Gabrielle Castillo, or Gabby, we've had him on the show before. Think of this. I mean, you can't really say that's the best because saints have written books. You should probably give them deference.

But it's the best book I've read on the rosary. And I'd highly recommend people get it. from Sophia Institute Press. I'm sure it's on Amazon. I think I have a note on the back about it. Oh, do you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's see what you say about it.

Wouldn't recommend not highly inspiring. Whoa. No, they still printed that. Yeah. You said, but Benedict 16th noted that the Rosary is experiencing a new springtime in popular piety. The power of the rosary stands as a striking example.

That reads like you didn't actually read the book. That's what that. When I read that, I think you didn't read the book. Well, read all of them. What do you mean? Well, because you don't talk about the details of it. You talk about the rosary. The power of the rosary stands is a striking example of this movement of grace.

Keep going. That's it. That's all it says. Did you write more? I don't know. Oh, no, here we go. The book is both inspirational, okay, and formational. And for many hearts is a sure a defining comfort in Mary's motherhood and sanctity through this most anointed of, yeah, I'm still not sure you read it.

I would say this is I wouldn't. I may not have read every single word, but I'm not going to throw my name on something I haven't read at all. Well, I did that recently with Father Gregory Point's book. He sent me a book. I'm like, listen, I love you. But I'm not going to spend three hours reading for a PDF. Yeah.

So I'm like, okay, Father Gregory, he's legit. I scroll through. I see some things. It's nice. There you go. Yeah, because I do find it important, even when we do stuff on our podcast or whatever, like to actually. Because if you just throw your name behind anything,

it loses. and it's like a dumb thing or a bad thing. It's not helpful. But anyway, I would highly recommend if we'll get this book. It's excellent. Oh, this is funny. There's a sister Mary mediatrix of old grace.

Uh-huh. That's her name. I wonder if she has to change that now. No. Probably not. No, probably not. Yeah. All right.

This has gone off the rails. What else? Will that do? Yeah. Yeah, I'm just grateful and I'm grateful for God and his mercy. And one of, you know, one of the things that I've, I came to share, um, my, my conversion happened October of 2023.

You'll what happened? No, my, my, my conversion happened October of 2003. Okay. Wow. And which is, uh, right at the exact ending of the year of the Most Holy Rosary instituted by John Paul II in October of 2022. And so I've just kind of like come through this journey. to see, like, I really believe that some of the grace of my conversion was the fruit of people praying the rosary. And so it's a gift for me now to be back in a place where I can be if you will repaying the favor by bringing other people to pray the rosary. And I think that,

I guess the last word I would have is like there's, there's, the devil is in the business of discouragement and despair and darkness and all that. And there is a huge amount of reason for hope and good things and great things are happening. Even in the church, even the church of the United States, even right now, good and good things are in the world. Like, God has got it, God is big. And he's doing a perfect job. And there's, I think, a great invitation

to authentic Christian hope. We are people of hope. We are not people of despair or discouragement. If we place our hope in the Lord, like we never hope in vain. And so I just think, like, if we are feeling deep frustration, discouragement, a great medicine and remedy to that is going to be bringing our focus back on Christ.

And I think a really privileged place of doing that is by a regular and daily recitation with most holy rosaries, which is the most real thing, which is the cause of our hope, the source of our joy. And we just kind of need to get back to keeping our eyes on him and what he's done and what he's doing and who he is. Beautifully put.

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