Pints With Aquinas - Teenage Matt, Conversion, Music, and Horror w/ Emma Fradd

Episode Date: August 26, 2024

Emma has released four studio albums, one of them be an album of ambient music and her latest single ‘Firing range’ is out today. Her music has taken her on multiple tours across Canada, New Zealand, England, with her band Interior Castle and many tours across Australia in her dance-pop band Heaps Good Friends. A couple of years ago, Emma and her husband David Kruse started a Catholic record label called Enemy Love Records. They do ministry to Catholic musicians as well as help discover Indie Catholic artists/ bands and assist them in producing and promoting their music, with a focus on gigging. Show Sponsor: Strive 21: https://strive21.com/matt Exodus90: https://exodus90.com/matt Hallow: https://hallow.com/mattfradd Emma’s Links: https://www.instagram.com/emmafradd?igsh=bDR6dDVreG9kMmNn&utm_source=qr https://open.spotify.com/artist/14IHpyybyxSIWAfdZ0cJry?si=7dgydASWSoiD74spHt05ig https://www.instagram.com/enemyloverecords?igsh=ejdsYnMzdHBuY2N0&utm_source=qr http://www.enemyloverecords.com/ https://open.spotify.com/playlist/6gDMo76iALiofMGtmhoZLl?si=KgLVasrsTkOOcz_8wh5-TQ&pi=u-lLwB7rVjSeyb  

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for our sins now at the hour of our death. Amen. Good? So, good? We can start? Emma Fred. How's it going? Very good, thank you. I've been thinking about doing this and I'll do it publicly to make it awkward. You know when you know someone for a long time, you kind of have this idea of them and

you kind of accidentally put them in a box? Right. I knew you would be a good mother. But you are an amazing, like legitimately amazing mother and amazing wife. It's been awesome. You just moved to the student bill So yeah, yeah You're getting to see the way you interact with your beautiful daughter and the way you love your husband

Like it's so it's so beautiful and I'm just so happy for you. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah, I've never been one of those Catholic women that want to have 65 children 64 ago Yeah, but no, it's, I never really thought I'd get married. I was single for so long. I remember you saying to me once, I think I was talking to you about how I was just sad

that I was single and you were like, it's kind of like when men would go off into war and women would just have to like accept that. And I was like, okay, thanks man. Oh, I'm so sorry. No, no, it was like, it was good. I'm so sorry. And I was like, it was good. I think I think I really mean I don't even know what that means. I think you were kind of like, well, maybe you will be single forever and maybe

you have to learn to like accept that. But I think it's good. Like, yeah, I think maybe I said that because I get sick of the kind of like chipper unrealistic advice. Like, no, there's someone out there for everyone. That's why I got so sick of that Combine that with my melancholic temperament. I had to bring war and death in Yeah, so how old were you when you got married

32 Yep Yep, 34 now. So marriage is over two years. But yeah, it's so good. Marriage is the best. Everyone should do it Yeah, did you know you'd be good at it? I mean, I know we all have room to grow. And but I mean, did you, it sounds like it's come that being a wife and being a mother has, has come more natural to you than maybe you thought. Well, I think so. I think I was just, um, well, becoming a wife is just kind of like, it's in its, in its senses, the same as being a girlfriend, being a fiance, like you're just

loving the other person. So like that was easy to do from the as being a girlfriend, being a fiance, like you're just loving the other person. So like that was easy to do from the start. So it was just a continuation of that. Being a mother was hard because I was really unconfident in the beginning. Like I was just so afraid that I would break this little fragile person. And it took me a long time to like build up confidence.

But now I feel confident and yeah, it's awesome. Cordelia is just so beautiful. It's a great name too, well done. Yeah, cheers, David picked it up. Yeah. Do you remember being at the hospital and this was my experience, they kind of go, all right, bye.

You're like, what do you mean by? I gotta take this kid home now? I don't even know how to. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, the first night me and David got home, we just looked at each other and cried. We were like, what are we doing? Because we had some issues breastfeeding and we had to like express and yeah,

yeah, it's crazy. But obviously they know what they're doing. They know how to survive. And it's not like we're just going to let her cry and die. We're always there for her. So that's awesome. Well, she's super beautiful. So you are a musician. I think a lot of people who have listened to Pines with a Coiness since the beginning will remember that intro that we would play that was yours. I still get people emailing me about that being like, what is that? How do I get that? How do they get it?

Well, you can just get the song. It's on Spotify or iTunes. It's with my old band, Interior Castle and the song is called Finish Dreaming. So. How many bands have you been a part of now that have actually published music? I guess three, like my solo self, Interior Castle, which was my duo with a friend in England and then Heaps Good Friends, my Australian dance pop band.

That was incredible. Is it sad that that's come to a close? Well, we're holding on. US tour 2025. That's probably what we're hoping. Really? Yeah. That's awesome.

Because our drummer's amazing. He drums in like 50 bands and he's come to America a lot on different visas. So he's familiar with getting those kind of entertainment visas. So yeah. And Nick really wants to just get into the music scene here. So David's all for it.

So I got a friend named Derek who you're gonna love. Is this the drummer? Yeah. And he told me he played the drums. He was in a death metal band at some point. And so him and I were just hanging out in Pittsburgh and we went to one of those guitar centers and he jumped on the drums and I'd never heard him.

And I was, you know when people are like, oh yeah, you're okay. And then some people are like incredibly talented. That's what Heaps Good Friends is. I would show everyone those songs. My kids love it. Heaps Good Friends, yeah, that's the band. Yeah, yeah it's a lot of fun. Heaps Good Friends taught me that it's really a pleasant experience writing with someone. If you find someone you like writing with, it just, it makes the whole experience so much more fun and just, oh it's just awesome. How do you write with someone?

Not just do you mean the lyrics or the music? Or everything. Usually Nick would write like the backing kind of instrumentation and then we'd both do the melody and I'd do the lyrics but sometimes we would come together and do the music as well. It's just cool. It's like you know when you're writing I don't know if you remember writing music. You ever write music back in the day?

Yeah but nothing I would ever be. Well, it's kind of like a synergy. I'm pretty sure, I think some of it has been leaked online much to my horror. Some of your stuff's good. Anyway, but that moment when you're writing music and you kind of run out of steam, you know, and then the other person can come in

with more energy and an idea. And yeah, it's awesome. And if you look at songs like Beyonce's the only person I can think of right now, I'm sure every other person, if you look at their top songs and look at who the writers are, there's like 20 or 30 people that have helped write the song.

Yeah, so. That's wild. You would think that Beyonce makes enough money that she would pay them all to be ghost writers. Totally, yeah. Well, yeah, maybe. Yeah, I don't know how it is for people like Taylor Swift. I know she prides herself off writing music, but.

Does she? Yeah, you watched any of these Beatles. Almost like 95% of it was John Lennon and Paul McCartney. Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah, yeah. And you got a new song coming out? Yes, comes out today. It's called Firing Range and. I know it's going to Thursday. It's when it releases, it will be out that day. Yeah, it's, it's cool. It's the first song I've written in a while that I'm really proud of. And

David was a big help with that. And yeah, it's kind of without giving too much away. I don't like to give too much away. But the basis of the song is basically about how it's really hard to evangelize in 2024. That's awesome. Yeah. If a non-Christian person was listening, would they pick up that it's a Christian song or? No. No, it's kind of my goal with all my songs. Yeah.

Yeah. Will it be on YouTube or Spotify or? Yep, Spotify, Apple Music, YouTube. Okay, we'll pin a comment to the top so people who are watching can go click that and check it out. That's Yeah, do you remember the tea party that Canadian band? I feel like you've been influenced by them because when I see you play Like what do you call that kind of slap? Classical something. Yeah, those two things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they have a great song called the badger Yeah, if you that, but that's like my favorite song to play. Yeah, it's beautiful.

Yeah, I took classical lessons from good old Wendy Palmer. Did you? I knew you took, yeah, yeah, good old Wendy, yeah. So that was helpful. And then I think the slapping thing, probably Joe Zambone influenced that a bit, but I think I really kind of found my style when I served on net,

because leading team prayer for an hour every day, you know, you get good and yeah, you get to really hone in like what would make this song like what are the nuances that would make this song sound better and yeah. What do you love and hate about modern music? And I don't listen to it to be able to answer, but I didn't, without sounding very obvious, just the sound of it, like as soon as I hear it, I'm just like, like I have no patience for, I don't know, just like, I don't know. Yeah. Honestly, I don't listen to a lot of it when I hear it, I'm always just annoyed.

I find, I think most people probably can always continue to listen to the music that struck them in their teens. Yes, that's true. So who would be five bands that on a regular you would listen? Well my favorite band growing up was Nirvana, but I have a hard time listening to that now because he was a very sad man. Other bands I loved were, I guess, Metallica.

I love Metallica. I can get into some of them every now and then. I was big into Hole, which was like Kurt Cobain's wife's band. They were just like a screamy girl band. Who's that duo of females you listen to now? Duo of females? Two Sheil? Do you know to Sheila's? One of them plays the bass Heim or oh Heim they are my favorite band of all time. Yeah. All right. They're so good Yeah, three girls from Los Angeles. They're they're all sisters. So that harmony is a great three girls

They kind of like rock R&B. They're so good. I am Yeah, I. I think what's great about Metallica is that they've aged with their music. There's still a story. I feel like and maybe I'm wrong, but some bands that are still playing, it feels like they're frozen in time. Interesting. Even personally, they kind of present themselves as as if they're the same people they were 20 years ago.

Whereas I feel like there's still a real story with Metallica. Really? Yeah, like James Hetfield, his overcoming alcohol, him being transparent about that, even him kind of being vulnerable on stage of being too old to play. I don't know if you saw that.

I don't know if it was in the Philippines or where, but he started, yeah, he actually started sharing that, that he was like, oh, this negative self-talk about why the hell are they still doing this? I don't have what it takes and I can't sing how I used to. You've got to go teared up and they kind of hugged on stage. And it clearly wasn't staged to seem dramatic or something. But that's what I mean about like this ongoing story that's like front and center.

I don't know. That's interesting. You say that. Maybe I'm out of touch with current Metallica music, but David and I talk about this a lot, and especially in our ministry to artists, a lot of bands make a living when they're most vulnerable. Like you think of Metallica, they got famous because they were so angry. And I kind of thought that they're still

kind of making angry music, and wouldn't it be nice if they wrote a country album? That might be something different. Or if you look at like, I don't know if you know Paramore, Hayley Williams from Paramore, she wrote this incredible album, that might be something different. Or if you look at like, I don't know if you know Paramore, Hayley Williams from Paramore, she wrote this incredible album called After Laughter and just very upbeat, poppy. And the whole album is just kind of about like,

everyone's smiling like everything's okay, but really I'm sad and life is hard kind of thing. And it's like, do we as Christians, as an audience, like want her to get over that? That might mean that she won't write that music anymore. Or Amy Winehouse, as an audience, like want her to get over that? That might mean that she won't write that music anymore. Or Amy Winehouse, it was like she was walking with her producer in London one day and she walked past a rehab and she literally said the words

like, oh, they're trying to make me go to rehab. I say, no, no, no. And the producer was like, let's make a song out of that. And it's like, okay, but then she died, you know? Oh, did she? Like from addiction. It's like so many, I think artists, they make, but yeah, they often make a living off where they're most vulnerable, which is why it connects.

Like people love vulnerability, but yeah, it's kind of like, yeah, Hayley Williams from Paramore. Like is anyone going to ask her? Like, is she okay? Or like Kurt Cobain, like anyone's going to ask him? Like this dude's like addicted to drugs. He's so angry. Like, someone's going to ask her like is she okay? Or like Kurt Cobain, like anyone's gonna ask him like this dude's like addicted to drugs, he's so angry like yeah someone's gonna ask him if he's okay and yeah because because the sorry to cut you off but like the healing process is itself vulnerable so it's not as if you have to give up being authentic yes just not authentically crappy yeah like if

you're addicted to drugs and your life's spiraling out of control like that's a crappy authentic place to be and yes the healing process is also control, that gets a crappy authentic place to be in. Yes. The healing process is also authentic. And that's what I think James has done well. Maybe not in his music, but certainly in his interviews. Okay. The other thing is I like about Metallica is that their music kind of just changed and they didn't seem to care.

So do you remember when Load, we're losing 98% of our audience. Remember when Load came out? Oh, you probably don't remember this, but when Load came out? Oh, you probably don't remember this, but when Load came out after the Black album, people revolted because it was so different sounding. I had a conversation with someone just the other day about this. Yeah. Well, he just said, what do you like about Metallica? Before Load or after? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Be Hell. Yeah. Yeah. And then there was that song Mama Said that was

kind of country sounding. Which is awesome. Such a beautiful song. So I think what happened is like, I, Mama Said, that was kind of country sounding. Which is awesome. I love it. Such a beautiful song. So I think what happened is like, I don't know, people were kind of metal heads and all about metal and that came out and they revolted. But then people like, well, I mean, it wasn't the best album, but there were some crackers on it. Yeah. Nothing can be as bad as St. Anger. Do you remember that album? Yeah. What don't you like about it?

There was no guitar solos and they took the snare off the snare drum. I don't know if you know if you know what that means, but when you hit a snare, there's like the wires under it. Yeah. So it just says, go, go through the whole album. And I don't know, I just, the lyrics just didn't sound very, but see, like that's an example of why I respect them because even in that album, they chose not to play guitar solos.

Right. Just for something different, you mean? Yeah, they just said, yeah, we're not going to do that. Even everyone loves Metallica because of Kirk's good part of it, his guitar solos and they chose not to play guitar solos. Right. Just for something different, you mean? Yeah, they just said, yeah, we're not gonna do that. Everyone loves Metallica because of Kirk's guitar, that's part of it, his guitar solos, and they chose- He was very influential for me growing up as well. Yeah. Yeah.

Anyway, so that's why I have a lot of respect for him. But it's funny, maybe it's just because they were a pivotal part. So when I was in grade eight, it was The Beatles. Do you remember me being obsessed with The Beatles? I don't, I thought that was just dad. I was obsessed. What? Wow, I had no idea. Yeah. 13 year old Matt Fragg, big into the burdles, started playing guitar so I could play Beatles songs.

And there was me and Jake were big into the Beatles. I borrowed like cassette tapes from Uncle Brian's girlfriend, Debbie. And yeah, and we and I would I love them. Wow, I had no idea. I don't know if I love them for the right reasons. I think it was just kind of like catchy and easy. Yeah. But some of the songs are more complex and beautiful. Their melodies are, I've never liked The Beatles

because everyone likes The Beatles. But their melodies are just amazing. That is an interesting phenomenon. When people stop liking something because it's cool. Right. Isn't that interesting? I think for me, I'm just so big on individualization. I don't wanna like something because everyone does. I'd rather like it because I like it.

And if I never knew that everyone liked The Beatles and I just sat and listened to them, I'd probably enjoy them, but the world ruined it for me. Yeah, it is interesting. Do you remember when Korn started? I remember that band, yeah. And people were like huge into them and then they became kind of mainstream and then everyone was like, oh man, but that's funny. People are doing that with Daily Wire now. Daily Wire was this.

I'm not saying people don't have legitimate criticisms and legitimate reasons not to like something. Yeah. But I'm saying like even with that granted, there's still this thing in us that we that we don't like things once they become cool Interesting and no one would like to admit that right? What's that? It's a little bit of tall poppy. Tall poppy syndrome I think that's an Australianism. All right. Yeah, I think the tall poppy syndrome is when you cut yeah Yeah, so maybe you're right you cut people down because they're doing so well. Yeah, Tony Mulder Can I just go back to what you're saying about corn? Yeah. Um, just cause I watched this recently, there's this documentary on Netflix.

Um, I forget what it's called. It's about Woodstock in one of the earlier Woodstocks. And it's this incredible documentary about how it just was poorly planned and how there was the power. It shows the power of music and how it affects people. I've got to remember all the details here, but basically what happened is it was really hot. There wasn't enough water.

The toilets weren't working very well. Just picture being stuck at a hot festival for three days, the crowd was just not having a bar of it. And they started throwing things on bands on stage and then Limp Bizkit came out and they sang that song Break Stuff. And people started getting trampled on and people- Oh my goodness.

Yeah, just the whole like sound, the sound area like fell down. Oh, I remember seeing that. But then the camera followed them backstage and the first thing Fred Durst said to the interviewer, like without him being prompted, he said, it's not our fault, it's not our fault. And then later that night,

Red Hot Chili Peppers came on stage and I don't know why, it was like the dead of summer, right in the middle of summer, and they handed out all these candles and they were having some vigil where they were trying to get the crowd. And then for Encore, Red Hot Chili Peppers, I believe played, I think it was a Jimi Hendrix cover,

Let Me Stand Next To Your Fire, I think. Don't quote me on that. Some song about fire. And yeah, the audience just started setting things on fire, like huge, yeah, huge like art pieces they had and just the whole audience just like totally rebelled against the festival and the organizers. And it was really, really scary.

And it's a hard documentary to watch because it really points out just the power of music and how it can like shape people to act and in this case so violently but I thought of corn because corn were at that festival and yeah that is fascinating yeah it makes you maybe give another hearing to the old carons who told you that metal was bad for you would make you worship satan you're like piss off caron and but i think there's something to it if if if you know somebody who listens to ugly music, they're probably on their way to becoming an ugly person.

Yeah, I don't know what ugly music would be. Yeah. And then you at least like sorry, but like vulgar, like if it was like vulgar and just like cheap. Yes. And tacky. That's not good for you. Yeah. But then I don't know. It's it's it's a conversation I'm still, I have it a lot with David. Cause there's a whole like class of people who listen to like Christian metal. Yeah, I did that this morning on the train though.

So feel free to criticize. Maybe this is a chat to have with David, but his opinion is like, you can't really have that cause he thinks the overall sound of metal is too. Aggressive? Yeah. He could, he could argue his point way better than me yeah and i won't argue it here but i guess why i well the reason i love metal to work out to this is so wild like when i was a teenager i would listen to metal like in my bed now i'm old i need to be like running my heart rate at 170 to enjoy it. But I would never listen to metal in the car. Right. I don't know why.

You probably hit someone. But I don't know why. I don't know what changed. I don't know if it just, maybe it's because I'm a dad with kids and I'm already tired and I don't need to be made more anxious by like, you know what I mean? Yeah, right. Anxiety inducing, rage inducing metal. I need less of that. So now it's like, now it's like lo-fi or it's something like oldies, but it's raining outside. That's the crap that I listen to on YouTube.

Yeah, just to calm down. That makes sense. I can't imagine listening to metal around the house, just like my little daughter right there. Yeah, just to come. That makes sense. I can't imagine listening to metal around the house. Just like my little daughter right there. Yeah. Yeah. But working out makes sense. You know, you want to be pumped up. Yeah. Yeah. But it is it is interesting to how I have this romanticized view of music that I listen to because of the experience I had when I listened to it such that if my children now got into it, I'd be like, that's great. But I don't think I should think that.

So my eldest was telling me how he liked Radiohead and I'm like, awesome. Like Radiohead is fantastic. And then I'm like, if this was a new band and I was listening to it, I don't know if I would think that. Yeah. I think what you were saying about it being nostalgic, I think growing up we had more space because we didn't have screens. We could sit on our bed with a Discman and read the lyrics and sing a whole album, you know, or we would have the patience to do that.

But now that's just not how people listen to music. It's always while they're doing something else, you know, going for a walk or in the car or, so I think that's part of the nostalgia. We like, yeah, our childhood is, we miss those experiences we had when we didn't have screens. Yeah. Yeah, I think so anyway. Do you sit down and listen to music?

David and I tried to, yeah, we sold our record player obviously when we moved here, but yeah. You can have mine. We try and do that. Well, your wife wants it. Does she? Yeah. I don't think she does. All right. She never listens to it. But that's interesting. Like one of the nice things about a record player is it slows the whole experience down. Right. Yes. Take the record out. Be careful with it. Like there's a respect

given to this object that is what's going to transmit this music to you. And you can't do something else because you got to flip it over and you have songs. Yeah, no, that's totally true. Yeah. Yeah. I just started getting more. I've always liked jazz. It's interesting to me that people hate it. I don't know any jazz haters.

Who are these people? I know one person. I was just surprised. Well, maybe maybe it's yeah. She said, oh, I hate jazz. What? That's like saying like, I hate chocolate or something. I don't know. But yeah, I like jazz. And one of the things I like about jazz is listening

to that initial head, they call it, like the melody, which sometimes plays throughout the whole song. And then they just kind of weave all around it. And that helps me to, yeah. Yeah, cool. I like, and I think you were saying this the other day, I like kind of slow jazz. If it's too frantic, it's a bit what's going on. But I used to listen to something called fusion jazz. Have you ever heard of that? No, just pictured

jazz on steroids. It's just mental. I don't think you'd, I would hate it. Yeah. Maybe when you worked out, you know, if you were doing some sort of obstacle course, French jazz is nice. Okay. Like it's, yeah. Is that kind of slower? I think it's slower and they usually have some woman with a beautiful French voice kind of singing slowly and syrupy to it. And I kind of like that. Maybe because I understand the lyrics as well. But I'm getting to the point, like I said to you the other day, that I don't like listening

to music because it gets stuck in my head. Right. And you can't have that. And it haunts me almost like this is an exaggeration to make a point, but almost like in an obsessive way, like the the the the line gets in my head and it won't let go. And I just keep accidentally singing the same line almost like. Like, it's not demonic, but that's what I imagine when people talk about having these intrusive, obsessive thoughts. Like I can't.

That is an extreme example. Yeah, I know. That's what I began with. This is an exaggeration. Because I feel like all songs get stuck in my head. You sing it, you get annoyed, but it kind of usually leaves after a day or two. Does it not with you? Does it hang around longer?

No, maybe it does for a day or two, but it's like Obsess it does not easily get dislodged, right? So man, so but with jazz doesn't do that with lo-fi. It doesn't do. Oh, yeah, right Yeah, cool. I want to tell you about hello, which is the number one downloaded prayer app in the world It's outstanding. Hello.com Slash matt frad sign up over there right now and you will get the first three months for free That's like a lot of time you can decide whether it's useful to you or not, whether it's helpful. If you don't like it you can always quit. Hallow.com slash Matt Fradd. I use it, my family uses it. It's fantastic. There are

over 10,000 audio guided prayers, meditations and music including Mylofi. Hallow has been downloaded over 15 million times in 150 different countries. It helps you pray, helps you meditate, helps you sleep better, it helps you build a daily routine and a habit of prayer. There's honestly so much excellent stuff on this app that it's difficult to get through it all. Just go check it out. Hello.com slash Matt Fred. The link is in the description below. It even has an entire section for kids. So if you're a parent, you could play little Bible stories to them at night. It'll help them pray.

Fantastic. Hello.com slash Matt Brad. So I am really excited, unironically, to listen to you tell me how you came to Christ, because obviously I was there. But I don't know a lot of it. And I'm actually interested. I was saying to Josiah as I left today, it's always good to not have to pretend to be interested.

Sometimes you'll be interviewing someone, you're like, I know this story, but here we go. I actually am really interested. Yeah, cool, okay. And it's gonna be fun, I think, for me at least, because you and I grew up in the same house. And so we have similar experiences, but things would probably interpret differently.

So I guess what's your earliest memory of thinking Catholicism was bull crap? So we both went through that. Probably early high school, like grade eight, grade nine. I just remember just being bored out of my brains going to church. I can remember mum took us to mass on a Sunday, but in high school we had to go again during the week on a Tuesday.

And I just remember being bored. That was my earliest memory. But also as I got older and a bit more rebellious, just feeling like it was kind of forced upon me, like, oh yeah, it's a given, you believe in God. And yeah, I wasn't having any of that. And I also remember, mum would, like mum and dad were great in that regard.

Like they made us if you want to say that, go to church, which is good. They should have. But I'm just, it seems so out of touch with all the questions I had about life, I suppose. So it was kind of like just a waste of something. What kind of questions did you have? I don't know. I guess I feel, I think I should be more merciful to my teenage self because I kind of questions did you have about that? I don't know. I guess I feel I think I should be more merciful to my teenage self because I kind of look at her and think like, yeah, think bad thoughts. But I don't know. Just like what's the point? Like what's the point of living? Like what's what's true?

So much of high school is just like, you know, I had a friend group. I would sit with four girls and they would just bully each other. You know, and I was always scared I'd get bullied and. Trash talk or behind each other's back or. To the it seems strange because they were friends, but no, it'd be to their face. So for me, it was like I so desperately because all through primary school, I was I had I was friends with with boys because playing cops and robbers is cool. And I remember getting to high school and mom being like,

you should probably make some friends with some girls. And the first day I did that, I remember this girl just making fun of this like disabled kid in our class. And I was like, oh man, girls are stupid. Anyway, eventually I made friends with some girls and I just found it hard. Like I just, I think as a teenager,

I wanted to be accepted. I wanted good authentic friendships, but these girls I was sitting with, you know, weren't very kind. And I was the one doing the bullying sometimes, you know. I've apologized to some of the girls since, just being like, I totally should have stuck up for you, but just not having confidence and being scared, you know.

But yeah, zooming out from that, I think I just, I was big into music, big into feelings, you know, and just wanted to know where my feelings fit in the world, I suppose. Yeah. Okay. And so was part of that wanting to fit in rejecting Christianity or something? Possibly, yeah. Like when I was in grade nine, I was in an atheist band. How did that happen? And did they label themselves that way?

It was me and two other guys. I remember our drummer was a huge atheist. And I think around grade nine, I started to learn what this word atheism meant, I suppose, and definitely labeled myself as that. And yeah, I guess maybe it was cool to kind of be against that, be against the school. And we didn't have a long career. I think we each wrote a song and our drama song was very much about how God isn't real. And what year was this? 2004. Okay. So this was, this was like maybe just before the like the atheist, new atheist explosion took off, right? Okay, I think that was around 2008 or nine That's so that was probably like

The dam was about to break culture for the coolness of atheism to shine forth, right for the time that it did No wonder I'm not saying you were necessarily influenced by that but I mean think I think from my own experience, I never said I was an atheist as a teenager. And maybe that's because the word didn't sound cool to me, whereas agnostic did because it had some sort of spiritual undertones. So it was almost like, if I'm agnostic, it keeps me open to mystery and karma and like healing crystals and meditation. You know what I mean? I was into all that as well.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I went through a, I was, yeah. I mean, I wasn't, didn't label myself a Buddhist, but I certainly looked into Buddhism. Didn't label myself a witch, but I had a book of spells, you know? Yeah.

Yeah. I was just kind of into anything and everything, but I eventually ended up as an atheist and just, just thinking if God were real, it would be more obvious. Yeah. And did you tell mum? I really dragged my feet going to Mass, and I remember one day... Poor mum. I feel so bad for her. Because she really did, like, God bless her. Like, she didn't have to put up with that crap every week from me.

I don't want to speak for you, but like I was brutal. Right. I already went to mass on Tuesday. I was in school. I didn't even go to school. It's just so stupid. I hate it. Yeah.

I just remember one day she was like going to mass and I was like, I'm not going. And she just let me stay home. Okay. And I was like, woohoo. I don't have to have that fight every week anymore. But yeah. Yeah. God bless her.

Totally. Yeah. So you God bless her. Totally. Yeah. So you're an atheist. Now, did you have any arguments for atheism or did you just think all the reasons people were Christians were bad reasons? Yeah, I felt like I didn't need an arguments

because the Christian arguments presented to me from teachers was so poor. Really? They tried, did they? I say that because I have no faith in the Catholic school system. especially ours that we went to. Yeah, I think it's not unrealistic to have that approach. A lot of Catholic schools in Australia are not very well run.

Yeah, I just remember like my religion teacher wasn't even like she wasn't Catholic, you know. They would even in my experience, like talk against church teaching. Yeah, right. I think one of them now will. Right. Like what a rebel. Yeah. Yeah. I remember I think it was, I'm not going to say her name, but I think one of the female teachers who may have had short blonde hair, who may have went out with Donnie DePalma for a little bit, whose name was Mrs. Hackett. I'm pretty sure she questioned contraception or like made fun of it in class or something. I mean, I was taught sex positions in my...

Are you kidding? Yeah. Wow. Yeah. It's so brutal. It's hard because looking back, it's like the teacher was just trying to probably be relatable and cool. Like, this is just creepy.

Yeah, totally. Mr. De Palma. Oh, no, no, he was great. He was awesome. Mr. De Palma was my seventh. He's so good. Who did I mean? Yeah. So, Johnny De Palma, amazing guy. Lo, Mr. De Palma. Oh, no, no, he was not. He was great. He was my seventh. He's I mean, who did I mean? Yeah. So Johnny De Palma. Amazing. I loved him. Who was I thinking of? We call him bangers. That teacher really Mr. Bell. I don't know. He was Italian, very tall, taught P.E. I feel like you may have been taught by someone that didn't. Yeah. Well, anyway, we call them bangers

And you get really upset when you go in bangers I remember we were in music class and Gareth Butler opened the window and And then he just turned and he must have been sick of it and he just started bolting towards the Yeah, oh man, that's very funny. Anyway, but you had teachers who are trying to be relatable. Yeah Yeah, yeah, and also the the priests not to bash the priests, but I just feel like they They didn't really give good homilies very unrelatable mass was very didn't seem like they wanted to be there So why should I believe did they yeah, it didn't seem that way I'm saying yeah, I'm making a judgment, but it just seemed like they weren't that interested. Yeah. Poor guys are probably so like bashed around by

the culture at that time. But yeah, yeah. I remember I played Mama said at mass once. Oh man. Speaking of Mama said they let you, they just let you just pick music. So I'm like closing him. I played Metallica to my great shame. That's actually to their great. They let me play. Hallelujah by Jeff Buckley. Yeah. Yeah Yeah crazy Yeah, I can't listen him anymore. It's too sad. It's too sad. It's too wonderful songwriter But I just I get too sad. Do you yeah, is that cuz it reminds you of your teenage years or a sad period in your life? Or no, it just he just seems so sad

so I feel that way with Elliot Smith as well and some most of Nirvana songs. I just Interested I just I feel so sad for them. Yeah. Yeah It is funny how we romanticize sad people Mmm killing themselves like Cobain did yeah We kind of elevate them like David was saying that the other day It's like it's like as soon as someone, everyone goes on Twitter and talks about how great they were. It's like, maybe they weren't great.

I know. I think I've already said to my wife, like at my eulogy, because she'll outlive me for sure. I'm going to need you just to remind people how much I sucked and beg everyone for my prayers. Yeah. I don't need a canonization speech. Totally. Yeah. So, okay. So you remained like this.

Is there anything else you want to share as you kind of in high school before you began to maybe be reintroduced to the possibility of Christianity or? I really want to ask what it was like for you when I converted. So it's so selfish. I'm sorry to make it about me, but like it was just such a pivotal crazy moment in my life when I was 17. So actually, and don't think you have to say nice things. Say it exactly as it. Okay, well, I'll answer your first question first

and then I'll go to that. I will say that I did have some moral values instilled in me that I was able to hold onto. Like I could have had sex before marriage and I remember not doing that, just still feeling like there was something wrong about that. Totally stole from the people I worked for and did a lot of other,

I don't mean to just glorify sin, but yeah. Yeah, it's funny how some things you're like, I would never do that and some things you just totally give into. So part of me still did hold on to some of the moral values. But yeah, I think, how old was I when you were in 2000? I would have been 10.

I would have been 10 when you converted. Yeah, yeah, 10 and 11. Yeah, yeah, 10. So I will talk about life before you converted. Okay. I was just, I honestly think I blocked a lot of it out. I think I was just bullied a lot by you and Tom. I'm so sorry.

I totally forgive you, it's okay. Yeah, I was a bastard. Yeah, like I'm so sorry. It's okay. It's really not. And you've forgiven me and I appreciate it. But I was an asshole. And I'm, I think it was because I was so miserable. Right? You know, like that doesn't make it okay. But I think that's we all get to, we realize that once we leave high school, that the people who were like rude and bad and mean to everybody had, they just awfully miserable. Yeah, they would wake up and they would project that hatred outward because they spent the rest of the time projecting it inward. Right. So anyway, yeah, no, I was a bastard. So when you converted, it was awesome. I remember going to pick you up

from the airport and you after what do you say? Yeah. So when you came back and I remember you literally picked me up and spun me around and I was like, what the hell is very cool. Yeah, so when you came back and I remember you literally picked me up and spun me around and I was like, what the hell? It was very cool. Yeah, it was cool. I feel like it was the first time I thought like, oh, my brother's my friend. You know, there was a period actually where you, you know, evangelize me. I was cool. I did pray like I was.

Do you remember that time I made you and Tom and me sit in the lounge room? We all hold hands. I said a prayer. I don't. I've got some wild memories after that trip. sit in the lounge room, we all hold hands. I said a prayer. I don't. I've got some wild memories after that trip. I was like, it was almost like I tapped into another sense akin to sight and no less intense and nobody else had it, but could have it. And I was desperate to tell everybody else about how to eat. Yeah.

In this very small town of Portbury. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but yeah, no, it was good. I remember, I remember waking up in the middle of the night once at like 2am and I woke you up and I was like, man, can we just pray a rosary? Yeah, you did. Thanks, Matt. Um, but yeah, I don't know. Unfortunately that was short-lived and then I got all dark and atheist, but yeah, um, yeah, I forget where we were. Yeah, no, just that's interesting. It is interesting. Cause I mean, I don't mean to oversell it.

Like, you know, sometimes when you share your conversion story, it ends up being like kind of out of touch a little bit, like people might dramatize just how bad they were. And then they like overplay just how peaceful they are now. Yes. So I know that's possible. And I know I was still a rat in many ways. Like I was doing things that I shouldn't have been doing for sure. But there was just like this new life breathed into me and I didn't know how to. Yeah, right.

Did you hear the story about how what I okay. So it stopped me if you have a member, I had a girlfriend, don't say her name. Yeah. Did I tell you how I recited the creed to her once? I just pray that she's not turned off from Catholicism. Oh, she a hundred percent is this. I did not.

I've shared this on a show before, but anyway, so she, she got God bless her. This is shortly after my conversion. We had a big party at our house. Were you still dating her when you went away or no, I had broke up before that. God bless her and Anyway, she came back and we're at this party at my house. Mom and dad must have been away I guess you were away I don't know what happened but like people were outside drinking or whatever and carrying on playing loud music and her and I were in

The lounge room just chatting and like things were like maybe getting a little romantic or something. And I was telling her about how I come to Jesus and she laughed at me. So here's what I did. I recited the Creed at her. Like I believe in one God, the father. And she's like, what the hell is happening? Almighty creator of heaven and earth, please stop. I will not. And then it gets so cringe. At the end I stood up and I went, and I hope you find him too. And I left my house with her in it. And there was nobody else in the house and she had to then leave it.

The poor girl. She didn't ask for that. What was her first choice? I wanna hear stories like this from saints. This is what you don't hear, you know? You've failed evangelization attempt. Okay, so feel free to linger on things if I move too fast. But okay, so our good friend Carla had a conversion shortly after my conversion. So and I know you were friendly with her. What was that

like? I think I became more friendly with her after I converted so I don't recall time spent with her before my conversion. I guess I just remember her always being kind to you. Yeah. She liked you. Yeah. And so I remember like she'd come over and then I'd find out she's in your room listening to a CD or something which I thought was kind of beautiful. Yeah she's awesome. She was a real help like after my conversion not to skip ahead, but there was a time when I was in period, you know, no fellowship for almost a year and she would come home and visit

and it would just be awesome. Yeah. So fellowship is important. All right, so then how did you? So I was- So from atheist to Catholic. Alrighty, so I was in year 12, which is the final year of high school in Australia. I think it was February and I was applying I was working at Wally's at the time as a night filler

But um, I applied for this job at Meg's bookshop because I love books and in the interview They told me they want they wanted someone full-time Excuse me. So I went into the car and told mom You have this if you want by the way, thanks went into the car and told mom and she was kind of like Oh, you have this if you want by the way. Oh, thanks. Went into the car and told mom and she was kind of like, Oh, you know what? We can talk to dad like about me leaving school. And I was like, what? I can leave high school.

Bring it on. So yeah, she spoke to dad and I quit high school and started working full time at the bookshop. So yeah, Americans freak out at this kind of stuff. Like when I got married to Cameron, I hadn't spent one day in university and I remember feeling super self conscious about that. I didn't realize at the time that that was actually like cool. Like now I realize that was cool. I don't have people go to uni and they kind of have some idea of what they want to do. It's like, it's so why would you go into debt

for some idea of what you know? Anyway, so I was working at the bookshop. So that's cool. So you quit school. I did. Yeah. So that was just like, did you just feel like a like a new kind of lease on life in a way? Since you hated it so much? Well, yeah, I started making money. I could buy CDs and yeah, and I shared a little bit about my experience in school with my friendships. I was happy to be done with that. I guess I was a bit more isolated, but yeah. So yeah, I started saving up money and then you had just had Liam, your first son, and you reached out to me and you said, me and Cameron were thinking of you could come to Ireland and live with us for three months.

And I was like, that'd be sweet because I looked up to you a lot and be cool to get out of this small town. So yeah, in 2008, I came and live with you. And yeah, it was crazy. I had the best job ever. Do you remember the job I had in Ireland? Well, the one you hated, you mean the first one you worked at the fish and chip shop. Oh, I don't remember that.

Yeah. So there was a place in Gidor, Dairy Bag. There was that place like fried chicken. It was like a chicken chip shop. I can't believe I don't remember that. And then I remember once you just like walked into my office and told me you quit. And then it was after that that I Think you worked at a cool center. Yes, the one okay, so that job just because it's so funny

And I don't know if this would it robots probably do this now, but I would work night shift so it was very good pay and I would listen to the Messages that people would leave on people's answering machines and I would type them up and then it would get sent to them as A text but it was all live so you could have like five in a row and then like 20 minutes would pass and then it would get sent to them as a text, but it was all live. So you could have like five in a row and then like 20 minutes would pass. And then, you know, that's that is kind of fun to listen to. Did they know that people were listening into their conversations? I don't know. Yeah. I guess the technology maybe didn't exist back then.

That is why I do that. To think that they would come a day when that was. Yeah. No computers will just do that and I'll spit out a text message. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So I just remember, I remember- Was being at Meg's bookstore pivotal in some way, or are you just sort of chronologically

going through how you got to now? Yeah, it's not really pivotal. I don't know why I mentioned that. It just was in my brain. I think I was mentioning that to say that I was able to save up enough money to get the visa and go and do that. And I remember you and Cameron would obviously pray a lot, go to Mass a lot. And I remember getting into a lot of conversations with you about God.

And you were very patient and good. And I think you basically just said like, if you've, you were encouraging me to pray. And I was like, Matt, I have prayed, you know, I go to Mass on a Sunday, Mom, school makes me go on the week. I've just, I've been into the church and God isn't there. Like I'm telling you. Oh, I'm so sorry for however I like was awkward.

No, you weren't just don't it. Yeah. Don't even have that thought. Cause you, you were very pivotal in my conversion. So I remember. I remember once and you tell me if you remember this, I remember, oh, I do feel awkward. I remember dousing you with holy water. I don't know if you remember. Yeah. Hey, why don't you go take a bath? It's already filled and please don't empty it and refill it.

And ignore the priest. No, I remember going into your room because we were about to go in that pilgrimage to Medjugorje. I remember coming into your room that night and just saying, hey, I'm just asking that you really be open to it. And maybe that was fine. But for some reason, as I think back on that, I cringe. I think I was, I was open and I was away from my hometown, away of everything I knew. And I was able to receive that. So actually, I think it was the other way around. I think you came in and you're, I just want you to know that I am open. Oh my gosh. I think I remember that. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Anyway, I remember debating with you a lot and you would

kind of say like, you know, I gave you the example, people are being praying all the time, mom makes me pray, etc. And you were kind of like, well, that mustn't feel good. People just making you pray. Like, why don't you find your own space and your own time and you just say your own prayer to God, like whatever you want to pray. And do you remember I didn't kind of insist that you come to mass with us? I don't but I don't remember you dragging me to me. And it would be weird if I did,

but I remember actually speaking to Father Paul Crotty, saying, should I like make her come to mass? I didn't know, right? I'm like, which is now I look back and I'm like, you're a grown ass adult, you do what you want. You know what I mean? But that was his point. He's like, no, she's an adult.

Like let her, she can do what she wants to do. Champion, Father Paul. So that was probably really helpful. So it was less pressure, sorry. But I ended up joining that like youth group in Ireland, which was so great. There was so many like lovely friendships I made there. Yeah, so I took your advice and my prayer was just,

God, if you're real, show me, like show me in a way that makes sense to me. I'm pretty thick, so really make it clear. And then around the same time, it came up to go to Medjugorje. And I think you told me that a priest had paid for me to go. Also, this priest got you this Bible, but I think, is it true that you paid for me and you got me the Bible? It sounds like something I would do, but I don't remember. It could have been Father

Rory Brady. Actually, that wouldn't surprise me if he did pay for you to go. He was always doing very generous things like that. Thank you, Father Rory. So yeah, we went to Medjugorje and tried to, and as I said, because of that youth group and made a lot of great friends like Rachel and Hugh and just kind of would wander around with them and they were very into their faith.

And they were normal, right? Yeah. That helps. And I remember going to confession and it wasn't really confession. I was just like, father, I've got some questions. And I remember saying, so I'm trying to be open to God, you know, I'm trying to pray. But if I, if I pray the F our father,

it doesn't make sense because I'm saying the words our father you are in heaven holy is your name, but I don't believe them when I'm saying them. So how is that a prayer? Like, and he said, the priest said, prayer isn't just about you talking to God, it's about God talking to you. And I don't think I really knew what that meant, but I was like, Oh, okay. And then I kind of resolved from that day on to pray a decade of the rosary every day to Mary, just with the same prayer, help me, help me find God. And then I remember you took me around Medjugorje, like, what

do you, I'll buy you anything. You want a rosary? You want a Bible? And I was like, just can you get me one of those ones where you can't tell it's a rosary? I was so excited. Someone came up to me and went, your sister was just in the confessional line. I probably like dropped and smashed the glass. I was holding like what? And I remember, yeah, like being so enthusiastic at the same time trying to temper myself, but probably didn't do that very well. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I started praying the rosary every day and then this is a really worldwide trip. But then we ended up in Canada because you and Cameron were working for Net Ireland, who at the time were getting trained by Net Canada.

And I was really excited to go to Canada because my like favorite musician was from Canada at the time. And yeah, another really cool experience. That was totally, like that was totally a plan. Like we were like, hey, you gonna come with us? Maybe look after Liam? To net training. Yeah, exactly, it was a hundred percent like a setup. Yeah, so and that was just, oh my gosh, like.

Tell people about it, so those who don't. So national evangelization teams, every year they train up a bunch of different young people, aged 18 to 30, put them on different teams, put them into parishes, universities, schools, and they run retreats for young people. And Australia is really in need of missionaries if you're listening and you want to go serve our people. Netministries.au, is that it? I'm not sure.

Oh my gosh, if you just type in Net Australia, I forget the exact...ministries.au, is that it? I'm not sure. Oh my gosh, if you just type in net Australia, I forget the exact. Josiah, would you look that up? I think it's netministries.au, I think. Netministries of Australia, if you want to go spend, is it okay if I do a plug here? Sure, yeah.

Nine months traveling around Australia, learning to surf and not being killed by poisonous animals. You can do that. You got to be between the ages of 18 and 30. Yep. Yeah, single. Single. Cool. Yeah. Okay. That's.

Oh, cool. All right. Well, Net Ministry is Australian. Google it. You'll figure it out, people. And that was a real like, yeah, just picture me who's had such a poor example of what friendship is, walking into a, you know, intense month, two month long training with 60 young people who are just in love with Jesus. But more than that, like they're actually kind and they care about me. And that was a real like, you know, that made me feel special. But I remember walking in and they were having, you know, praise and worship because one of the charisms or one of the values or ministries

is very charismatic. So people singing their guts out to Jesus and hands in the air and it's really confronting when you're in a room of 60 people doing that. And yeah, it was kind of like, wow, if this is real, like if these people, like they seem to really believe they're talking to God and if they are, like I want to be this sold out for something, you know, I think that's what was so like just picturing high school and what was missing. Like I think I was ready to give my all to something, you know, and I kind of gave it all to music, you know, but if this God is real, like, oh

my gosh, I think I remember saying a prayer actually, just saying to God, like, if this is it, like, how could I not give everything like if you're real I don't care if it looks bad to my atheist friends that I'm a Christian like of course I'll give it all to you kind of thing and then the next day So net is kind of divided up into their training is divided up into different chunks in the first 12 days it's essentially a big long retreat and beautiful. Joe Vogel was giving a talk on he chose the nails. Oh, is that what it's called?

Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. And, um, I just remember a part of his talk. He said, God killed a part of himself to save you. How can you conceive that? And I remember thinking, I can't conceive it. And I'm trying to conceive it and I can't. And in some weird way, not understanding that, I was able to accept it. And it just, I just knew he was telling me the truth. I just knew like, this is not false information. And yeah, I think that was kind of the moment where I just cried my guts out. And yeah, I just remember like, yeah, and that was kind of it. That was what I was praying for. And praise God. Thank you, Mary for answering my prayers. And yeah.

Yeah, I remember my experience of that talk because prior to that moment, like sometimes you'd be crying, but it was because it was a like you are hurting or it was an ups you're kind of confused or something. And so I remember sitting there during Joe's talk and I, you know, when you're desperately trying to convert somebody, but not being like weird about it, like how she has she receiving this, you know, I don't know if you had the experience, but I remember looking over at you and you were crying and my first thought was, like, she's not, this isn't helpful. And I don't know if you remember this, but as soon as the talk ended, I actually walked up to this crucifix.

And you knelt down. Did I? Yeah. Okay. I kissed the feet of it or something and you grabbed my shoulder and spun me around. Oh, wow. And you said, yes, I accept it. I accept him.

Wow. That's what you said. Sweet. And then for the next, however long that camp was, two, I accept it. I accept him. That's what you said. And then for the next, however long that camp was, two weeks, three weeks, whenever somebody said, where's Emma? The answer was either outside with her Bible crying or in the chapel with her Bible crying. What was that whole? What happened after that? Emma Cunningham You know, I hope this isn't an anti-climax, but I remember kind of overthinking the whole experience because I remember, as we shared, when you had your conversion, you were very happy and I remember not feeling that at first. Like I was, I was joyful in the sense that

I was so happy to finally have this truth, but I think I over thought it a bit and I thought, oh, I need to be more X. Yeah. Yeah. But I think I was like, even though I was a single 18 year old, you know, it did sort of turn everything around for me, you know, like I was like, I have to go home and tell my friends like I can't do drugs with them anymore. I remember they were thinking the question was like, should we let Emma stay and be on team? You're aware of this. Yeah. But the answer was no, because I mean, this is a fresh convert. She needs to go home. Yeah.

Yeah. So, and I'm glad I did go home. It was so difficult, but, um. Yeah. What was that like going back into a small country town? I want to tell you about a course that I have created for men to overcome pornography. It is called strive21.com slash Matt. pornography. It is called Strive21.com slash Matt. You go there right now or if you text STRIVE to 66866 we'll send you the link. It's 100% free and it's a course I've created to help men

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Do you, you're aware of this? Yep. But the answer was no, because I mean, this is a fresh convert. She needs to go home. Yep. Yeah. So, and I'm glad I did go home. It was so difficult.

But yeah, what was that like going back into a small country town? Oh, man. And how did mom and dad react? Because I wasn't there, obviously. I was in Ireland. I remember calling mom and being like, I like Jesus now. And she's like, so you're going to come to Mass with me now? It was just hard.

Yeah, I didn't have like, I'd made great friendships in Canada and in Ireland, but they were just so far away. And so yeah, just kind of going to Mass and praying and it was just a bit isolating, I suppose. But I was just holding on to going back to Canada the next year and serving on that which was which was great. Yeah, it's just it's just very tough. And praise God, I was able to not lose that faith. I was able to kind of hold onto it. Yeah, people who don't live in small towns may not understand what this is like, or maybe they do.

So I feel like in most cities, at least in America, like there's a Catholic group of sorts. You might not be like crazy about the people you have to hang out with and pray with and do life with. You may wish they were better than they are or more interesting than they are or whatever. But to live in a small country town where the only people who go to mass are like,

God bless them, right? They're holding the church together in Australia with these like blue haired old women, you know? Yeah, bless them, you know? Like they really are amazing people, but it's like, they're so much older than you. And it's just, it's so difficult. Especially not just that,

but you're going back to a place where everyone you know and love is living such a different life. Yes. And they remember you differently. And you have to kind of explain like, oh, I'm not I'm not going to. What was that like? Well, I remember calling. I remember calling a close friend and kind of saying, I can't do drugs with you anymore.

That was kind of the biggest thing. And he was very, we had, we would always had really big, deep conversations. And I think he was, I spoke to his wife now after, and I remember her saying, I don't know what you said to him, but it must have been very potent because he's been crying.

So I think he was kind of, I mean, I don't wanna put words around his experience. It sounded like he was kind of, I mean, I don't want to put words around his experience. It sounded like he was wanting that, you know, he was wanting to have an experience like that or, or maybe he was grieving that our friendship would be different. I don't know. But yeah, that's really cool. I remember for me, the biggest obstacle to get over was coming home was probably like just bad movies. Oh, okay. Like there was that American Pie series that's absolutely awful.

And I remember the pressure of all my friends being into these new things. You know, like as you get older, the pressure lessens. Yeah. Like, or maybe it doesn't, maybe it just changes because now they're advertising like how I can regrow my hair, you know, like things like that. But when I was a teenager, it was like all the latest things for teenagers and yeah, my friends would get drunk and things like that.

So I don't think getting drunk was a big deal anymore for me. Like I was pretty okay like not doing that. Pretty okay. And then maybe it was also just like hooking up, which was such a part of my teenage experience, like going to a party with the boys. But like drugs is something next level, like, cause there's also, there may have been,

I don't know, you tell me like an addiction element. So was that difficult for multiple levels to develop or were you not addicted? No, it was very recreational. Yeah. And I hope I'm not making it sound like I do it all the time. It's probably like once a month or something, but when I would get together with this particular group of friends.

Um, do you know why I only smoked pot after my conversion? Really? That's what I said earlier when I was like, I'm still wretched. Like, right. Yeah. Isn't that funny? That's so sad. Were you, uh, invited to prior?

No, maybe that's why. And mom and dad did a pretty good job at like warning us off against that kind of stuff. I wish parents in the nineties were as concerned about their kids fornicating as they were about them smoking tobacco. Like we all would have had much healthier childhoods if we were smoking cigarettes instead of like, anyway. But yeah, no, I did a smoke pot a few times.

But I remember the day I stopped, I had to go to work that night and all my friends had started smoking weed. And I remember just looking around the room because everyone was half baked. And I just thought, this is so ugly. This is so sad. Like I'm not glorifying drinking either,

but when people drink a little too much, in my experience, people were kind of more energetic, more into, they would relate to each other, but it was like, you know, I was just sitting on the couch in their own world. I'm like, I can't keep doing this. But anyway, back to you. Yeah, no.

Well, I think not to sound super depressing, but I didn't really have a lot of friends when I went back because my main group of friends was in Adelaide. And like I said, when I left school, I kind of left those friendships behind. So I wasn't really tempted in that way. It was just more lonely, I think, when I after my conversion going back. So. And so what was it like you mentioned earlier when Carla would come back?

It was awesome. Yeah, we would just pray together. I would chuck mayonnaise together. Explain what that is to the people. Chucking a mayonnaise when you drive up and down the main street of your hometown, or A town. Yeah, she's just- Do you remember Carla's dad's car, the horn would blare? Every time she turned left. Do you remember that? Yeah, yeah. I don't remember, but she told me that.

Yeah, it's so wild. Because I was already, this is my surprise to people, but I was already, this is my surprise people, but I was already not terribly cool when I was 16. And so while these other cool kids had their like super revved up cars, the seat back, you know. Honda. Do you remember Danny Fasciano? I don't. All right. Well, anyway, so, meanwhile, I'm in colors like blue, maybe beetle.

And every time we turn left, we go, eh. So you have to pretend you were waving at people. I'm in colors like blue, maybe beetle. And every time we turn left, we go, eh. So you have to pretend you are waving at people. And then you go, I hate my life. You should meet her. We didn't know. Remember club clippers? It sounds familiar. Is that a place in Paris?

So so again, can't reiterate it enough. Like even though Port Pury, where we grew up, is a is a, you know, it's a sizable town, about 16000, isn't reiterate it enough. Like even though Port Pury, where we grew up, is a is a, you know, it's a sizable town, 16,000, isn't there, people? Yeah. But it's surrounded by farmland. It's not like these cities here. You know, people say it's a small city, but it's all the cities in America.

A lot of them kind of connect. Ours is like, you could draw a line around it, like that's it. And then you got to drive like an hour to the next significant town. So it made it feel all the smaller. So like it must've been so weird for them trying to drum up like hype about a club in Port Pirey. Yeah, and what's the difference between, like what is it, I mean, obviously the difference

between a club and a pub, because there's pubs in Pireys, in Pirey, that operate like clubs in the evening. Well, so I think that was less the case when I was 17. I think there were more just like pubs. But this was, yeah, I don't know, they had flashing lights and music and stupid stuff. That's funny. I don't know why I brought that up.

Port Piri. Yeah. Piri is the place to put a smile back on your face. It's all that Port Piri. Yeah. All right. So, okay. And then were you afraid that you wouldn't be accepted to net when you think a little bit? But at the same time, Ben, the recruiter was very encouraging and I was very open with them about everything. And how did you how did your relationship change with mom and dad now that you were?

I think I just tried to be less of an ass to them, really. Yeah, hopefully I succeeded at that. I don't really remember, yeah, I do remember just going to Mass with Mum. I think I started playing music at Mass, which was nice. Did you know Bishop Hurley well? Did you get to know him at all? I think I was too young. I don't think he was the bishop there when I came back.

Okay, I'm sorry for that. He's terrific. I saw him actually a bit when I lived in Brisbane. He's wonderful. Yeah, he's great. Yeah. Yeah, Bishop Hurley, people don't get this in America either. Like I'd go to his house and knock on his door and we would have cups of tea together. Talk about Jesus.

Such a isolated town, like a small, well, it's not actually a small diocese. No, I think it's the third largest. Right. Geographically. Ever? Third like a small world. Well, it's not actually a small diocese that no This is the third largest right geographically ever third largest in the world right now I think the number one is probably in Russia technically, I guess Florida. Which one is it Orlando because They went to the moon from Orlando and so apparently that becomes part of the diocese technically speaking So it's kind of stupid but it's a fun fact, you know, the world is the largest diocese, technically speaking. So it's kind of stupid, but it's a fun fact, you know, that we're all in a large diocese in the world. That's hilarious. But yeah. All right, so then, yeah,

did you struggle with your faith during that time? Did you question, like, was this just some emotional experience? I never did, praise God. I was always very strongly convicted. And it was kind of like, I can't go back. Like, how can I let this go? Like, cause that was my whole thing. I wanted to

prayer. I wanted to, my prayer was to kind of know, like, show me in a way I can understand and grasp onto it. And yeah, that hearing that talk really just changed my heart. And yeah, I've never looked back and thought, oh, maybe it's not real. You know, maybe I being so young, maybe I dramatize the experience or whatever, but it was still just it was real and yeah, fight me for it. Now Nan was still alive. Wasn't she or no? Maybe she wasn't.

She wasn't. That would have been cool. Yeah, we had a beautiful Catholic man. What are some memories that you have of Nan? You know what's fun about this interview is imagine if like our dad and auntie sat down and had an interview and then like you could watch it. Yeah wouldn't it be wild? Yeah right it would be cool. Like our kids are gonna watch this. That's cool we better make it bloody good. It's kind of crazy. Yeah but I remember playing fish with Nan and she'd be like wait were

you after one of those love? Like two turns ago I'd asked for eight. It's very cute. Come on now, I got to win like my own back here. Oops. I loved Nan. She was so beautiful and loving. Unless she got cross and then it was terrifying. I don't have memories of being cross. I have like one or two memories. I think I was giving mom a lot of crap in the car,

like a jerk. Someone should have smacked me and she went off and it was terrifying. Oh wow. So I'd never experienced that before, but I remember I'd have sleepovers at Nan and Pop's and yeah, I remember her and I playing card games. Fritz and Sauce sandwiches. Fritz and Sauce.

Remember climbing on her TV tower? Yes. Yeah. Yeah, and that old rusted oven they had outside. I think we have that now. Yeah. Yep. Fun times. Yeah. Yeah. Fun times.

Yeah. Yeah. Did you have friends that you tried to evangelize when you went back? Or as you said, you were pretty isolated, I think. Not in the sense of like, you should try this too, but it was more, I just knew that if I shared my story and what happened, that would hopefully be enough to maybe get them thinking. Yeah.

I think I was a bit scared to be too full on. Not because I didn't think it would be effective, but I think I was just a bit more reserved. And were you there when Evie converted? What was your experience of that? So Evie is a dear friend of, so my best friend growing up, his mum was really dear to our family. And, and I don't know if you know this, I'll tell it real quick and then you can tell them your experience to kind of give people some background.

She would, you know, she was into all sorts of things growing up. Like she was probably a self-identified feminist. She was into like Eastern religions and she had statues of Buddha and crystals and tarot cards and all that stuff. She had a dramatic conversion. And there's this story, I don't know if you know, but she was a little Bible study. And she was telling everyone there that she was breaking those statues of Buddha and smashing the crystals and tearing down these things and burning the tarot cards. And someone said, well, don't you think that's a bit narrow minded? And she said, I hope

so. It's a narrow path. That's such an EV thing to say she's full of such great one minus where were you in relation to her conversion? I don't really remember like when EV converted, but I think when I went back to Australia after my time in Canada, I knew that EV was Christian. So and at that that point she had kind of, unfortunately moved away from the Catholic church, was going to a different church. But I would go over to her house and just kind of sit just for some fellowship

and look at her bookshelf and take some books. And yeah, she was full of such wisdom and just so joyful and yeah. And she, I think after her conversion, she said to me like every day she would wake up 5 a.m. and spend one hour in the Word. Oh beautiful. She just laughed at the Bible.

Yes. Yeah. And I think I asked you this, but did mum and dad react to your conversion? Did they think it was weird? Did they or did they just not really talk about it? Didn't really talk about it. Yeah. All right.

So then what was the net experience evangelizing all over Canada like? That was amazing. Yeah. A great way to just really deepen my relationship with Jesus, learn how to have like proper friendships, you know, learn how to have difficult conversations with people, learn how to live with difficult people. Yeah, it's really cool. And that's kind of a bit of the reason why I wrote this song

Firing Range was talking about how hard it is to evangelize today. It is just such a blessing to have a platform to evangelize, you know, whether you're in a school in front of people sharing or you're in a small group at a parish, just like being able to share having an audience. It's really hard, I feel like today, to get on to the topic of, so have you heard of Jesus? But yeah, I mean, I saw, I had a lot of positive experiences, a lot of difficult experiences, but that's what everyone says about net. It's hard, but good. And then my second year I was on this music team and we traveled all around Canada doing ministry to musicians, but also doing like youth rallies in schools. That was really cool, just being able to play so much music. I'm very passionate about that.

And yeah, it's just the best. And then I worked for NET for so long. Yeah, I worked in Canada for four years, and then I came to Australia and worked here for another four years. And yeah, but I just loved it. I got to do recruiting and just, I love having those one-on-one conversations with people and just hearing their story and helping them put it in the context of serving on net. Like, it's hard to talk about net vaguely,

but yeah, just so good. I think a not indecent argument for Christianity is that when you put it on, it works and your life gets better. When you put it on, like when you start practicing? Yeah, like when you enter into the world and live as a Christian and think that it's true, your life gets significantly better. I don't think that's an argument for the true. Well, I think it's a partial argument.

It's tricky because I think a lot of people who don't believe in God would argue it doesn't get better. What? I can't have sex before marriage. I can't. Yeah. Do X, Y and Z. It seems worse. But like I was reading Aquinas's commentary recently on, um, uh, take my yoke upon you in Matthew. And he says things aren't difficult when you love, when you love those difficult things become a joy. So it's totally true right before the conversion experience if

someone lays out all the things you got to do now or not do as a Christian it seems burdensome. Yeah. Kind of in the same way that marriage would seem burdensome like I live with this guy called David forever. He's sharing my bed like it's weird like I don't want to do these things. Who is this person? But when you love them, you want to do those things. And it's like that with Christianity. But, but I think there is something to that. It's like, I think it's possible for all of us to have our own sort of coherent epistemologies.

And what I mean by that is we can have a system of thought that's coherent. It doesn't contradict, but be false. Right. system of thought that's coherent. It doesn't contradict, but be false. So if I believe that the moon is made out of cheese, and you know, then maybe there's not much else that would contradict that. Maybe I, how did it get there? Oh, and then I have another story. And so eventually this story of reality that involves a moon made of cheese is coherent. So you can have a coherent story and it'd be false. Like Star Wars is a coherent story and yet it's false. Christianity could be a coherent story that's false. But it's weird that for me and for you and for many others,

once you kind of enter into the kind of epistemological framework of Christianity and act as if it's real, you flourish. Like that was my, I mean, whatever of other people, my life got significantly better. Agree. Yeah. Like that's my, I mean, whatever of other people, my life got significantly better. Yes, agree. Yeah. Yeah.

Like that's not nothing. Yeah. There's something to that. Totally. So even if you're not good at like formulating a philosophical argument for the existence of God as other people are, and if I'm not, it's like, there's something to this. Yeah. It seems to work.

Yeah. Yeah. And that's the thing to share with people. You know, like, I think it's better to share from your own experience versus, you know, well, I don't know, depends who you're talking to, I suppose. But sharing your own experience versus this is what the church teaches. And this is why I like maybe you need both. Yeah. All right. So then I like what you said about it's helpful to have a platform to evangelize. That's what this is.

Yeah, like it was wild to go to Europe and have so many people say that they heard about the Catholic faith or came into the faith because of so awesome. It is so awesome. And it's, it's, it's so because really little effort. Yeah, in a sense, it's not like I'm having awkward conversations and being denied being rejected by people. It's just like we do these things, they get put online and people bump into them and yeah So what was your experience like?

Evangelizing in Canada and then maybe when you were out of a team environment trying to evangelize Oh I'm I have one strong memory of evangelizing a friend in Canada and her brother served on net staff and she was not at all Christian. I just remember being a friend because I liked her. She was just a very funny, very great person to be around. So how were you associated with her? Because you were doing ministry still.

Yeah, so like I said, I worked with her brother on that stuff. Oh, sorry, sorry, I missed that. So she would come along sometimes to some of our events. And I mean, this is, I consider this real evangelization. I'm sure there were many other small opportunities I had to talk about, God or whatever. But I remember that one experience.

Yeah, we just became friends and yeah, she shared one day with me that she had started having feelings for me. And I was like, oh my gosh, what do I do? And I spoke to my spiritual director who was very wonderful and she kind of guided me how to go about that, which was essentially to say to this girl, like you think you- Look on flattered. Thanks for no thanks. she kind of guided me how to go about that, which was essentially to say to this girl, like,

you think you're- Look, I'm flattered. Thanks for no thanks. Basically share like what you like in me is Jesus, you know? And that was true, because I didn't, I felt like I could be myself with this girl because she wasn't annoyed by Christianity. She had a very Catholic brother,

so I would often share with her. And she would always ask questions, you know, like about why do you believe this? Why do you do this? And through this experience, yeah, she I don't remember the exact kind of series of events, but she she basically had this huge conversion and it was it was so beautiful if I die. And that's the only thing I did and had a baby girl. And 83 others eventually like we discussed earlier. But yes, that's wonderful.

But yeah, she yeah. So what happened? How did she? I think I think she it was very vulnerable of her to share like these are the feelings I have for you. And I think because I wasn't like, okay, bye. I think that we were able to like talk about it and seek guidance from holy people. And you know, we're still able to be friends, you know,

despite obviously not being able to do that, pursue that avenue. We would just, I would still like, we would do what we would normally do before she shared that. Like we would read the Bible and I'd take it a mass. And eventually she wanted to go to her first confession. And yeah, she's awesome. She's currently married with three kids and she's still strong in the faith and has beautiful

insights to share. And I think that's how evangelization, I'm answering my own question. Like I said, it's so hard to evangelize in 2024. I think you've got to be friends with them. You have to care more about them than converting them, which I think that's why I think it's so important to have friends who are not Christian. Not so you can preach at them every time you see them, but just so that door is there. And if they want to open and step through, you know, you can be there with all your answers and life experiences to share. But yeah, net really trained me, I suppose, in how to do that, how to not be weird and pushy. But yeah, it's very different than, you know, being in a high school and sharing your testimony. Like it's just being friends with someone and Jesus eventually comes up because he was

such a big part of my life. He's such a big part of my life. I don't know if I answered your question. I love that you didn't just look at her after she said she had feelings and went, I believe in God. And I hope you do too. That's what I tried and leave your house and she's good. Yeah.

Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. And then do you mind me talking about how you met David? Sure. Yeah. So we met through a mutual friend, but it was online because that was, well,

he was living in Minnesota. I was living in Brisbane in Australia. And I was writing a song, Invisible Ink. And it's funny, I had my beautiful roommate, Maddie. She played violin and, um, it's a beautiful song. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. It's probably my, out of all the songs I've written, I'm probably most proud of that song. So she played violin on it and it's interesting. I'm going to go back and share. So basically one day I wrote the song guitar singing and I knew Maddie had a violin. I was like, I'm just going to try and pick it up and play it. You know, I can play anything. She started

playing it. I was like, this is horrible. Like how the hell do you play this? So I was very humbled. She played violin and she said, I think this needs some cello. So I had a friend in Minnesota and I asked her if she would play cell humbled. She played violin and she said, I think this needs some cello. So I had a friend in Minnesota and I asked her if she would play cello. She asked David to record it. So that's how David and I got in touch. And this was during COVID. So we would kind of talk online

and we kind of did the basic exchange like, hello, here's a song, can you record it like this, et cetera? And he wanted to talk to me about starting, he wanted to start this Catholic record label and he wanted my thoughts. And I was like, oh my gosh, like Catholic music sucks. Why would you ever wanna do that? But he says, when we first had that initial conversation,

we spent five minutes talking about the label and then the rest of the hour falling in love. Is that what he says? Go David, what a champ. So we actually dated for 13 months online before we could meet in person. Right, because of COVID lockdown. That's wild. Yeah.

That must have been frustrating. It was. The hardest part was not knowing when Australia would friggin' let down the borders because it wasn't like, oh, it's going to open in six months. It was just like, we don't know where I'm asked to hear everyone. I can't do how you'll come up to me. I thought Australia was cool, but you guys are like gay. And I'm like, I don't know. I'm not there.

I can't speak to it. Was it brutal? It was brutal, especially for people living in Melbourne. Dan Andrews was just he just had very strict. Was he the governor? What do they call him? Whatever. So he's in charge. Yeah, he was in charge.

Oh, yeah. Just really strict. You know, you can only leave your house once a day for a five minute walk or something. And it's just. Bastards. Yeah. And while other cities and states were like opening up

and like, oh, you can go to the supermarket again, which was so weird. I remember, do you remember going to the supermarket? Maybe it wasn't locked down here. I remember going to the supermarket after I couldn't for a few months and just kind of looking at people being like, oh my gosh.

Yeah, that wasn't a thing here. Oh wow. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure in some places in America it was, but yeah. So basically while the rest of Australia was opening up, Melbourne was very, still very strict. I had a lot of friends there opening up, Melbourne was very still, very strict. I had a lot of friends there who just, yeah, had some trouble.

Mum and dad would contact me because I knew it was wild because I knew that mum and dad, bless them, love them, were being evangelized by the woke media about the jab, right? And so they would call us horrified that we hadn't got the jab and our kids hadn't got the jab. Yeah, hadn't got the job. Like, yeah, no, not doing it. No, I don't. So now when mom has covered for the 18th time after she's had 18 shots, I thought, like, I thought maybe because you got the jab.

She's like, yes, well, it'll be a lot worse if I didn't get it. And I well, that's interesting because I had to be that I had to get a booster shot to be able to get my green card. And I'm pretty sure I had covered three weeks ago and it was the worst I have ever had it. It was so horrible. Yeah. So anyway. I just don't like being told what to do.

Fair enough. If the government told me you're not allowed to get it, I would have got it in a back alley in my ass. I don't like the government telling me what to do, which is such an American... I don't know if that's good reasoning. It's not good. I'm not proud of it. I'm just saying that's what would happen. Yeah. So that was that was the hardest part, not knowing. And then we were also afraid that when you met him, there wouldn't be anything there.

Well, I remember Maddie, my same roommate, telling me like, oh, I had a friend and she recently met this friend. She met long distance and it was just all good. I was like, thank you, Maddie. Honestly, this is going to sound cheesy, but David is just so beautiful and just, he was so authentic and just so good to talk to online. I just, I knew like, there's just something about him and there's something here. Um, so I wasn't afraid. No, that's awesome. And when we finally did meet, it was just so good. And where did you meet? It was in... Did you go to him?

Yeah, Australia opened up first. Let me out. It was in 21 December of 2021 so snowing beautiful. Good to see snow again. And yeah, it was just it was so surreal Yeah, just crazy. Tell me more. Well, I was in the airport and surreal. Yeah, just crazy. Well, I was in the airport and Minnesota. Yeah. And I remember when I first saw him, he had a beanie and glasses on and I was like, he looks so different. I was like, Oh, like not not sunglasses. No. So when I first saw him, it was a bit weird. But then he when he took it off, I was like, Oh my gosh, like there is your head in 3d. And it was just awesome. He, for three days we stayed before we met all his friends

and family, he stayed with his sister in St. Paul. And I had this Airbnb and it was just awesome. Like we just, we went and saw one of my favorite singers, Caroline Polichek, we went to this board game store. We went and saw this incredible choir. Oh, I got to show you this song they played. I just wept. So beautiful.

It's really cool, because David's a musician, obviously, so we connected big time on that. And he's a bloody good one. He's very good. He's not like, oh, that's good. It's like, how have I not heard of you? Yeah, so it was just awesome. And then at the end of that trip,

I stayed here for a month and he proposed at the end, which I was not expecting. I don't know if I know how that happened. So I need you to tell me every detail. Well, I think I was set to fly out on the 31st of December. And that day we went for a drive to this waterfall near where he lives in Mankato. And it was so it was very cool and he just got on one knee and proposed and so showed me the ring and the first thing I said was is that real? And yeah I just I mean I was that like are you shocked were you you said you didn't see it coming yeah I wasn't expecting it um figured you know he'd probably need some time to get a ring first but he bought it before we met in person so I I obviously made some good impression. That's awesome.

It was just, it was beautiful. Yeah. It was cool to be, it was cool to leave America. He got a work visa. So he shortly followed me to Australia, but it was cool just to be like, Oh my gosh, like that's my fiance. Yeah. We're locked in now. Right? Like this isn't going to end now. There's no option. Yeah. That's really great. Yeah. It's yeah. Yeah. I bought my ring before I moved to the States. Oh, yeah.

Yeah, it's the best I could afford. Yeah, it wasn't great. It's funny how not to talk against women who care, but I feel like a lot of women have a very strong opinion about this is what I want my ring to be and et cetera, et cetera. And I kind of like had an idea of that. But then when he gave me the ring, like it's the ring that he gave me is actually a technically a wedding ring. So I don't have an

engagement ring. I would rather him get me the ring that he thought of and thought would be nice for me than like this hand picked one that I picked. It's a beautiful, beautiful ring. Yeah. Yeah. So he must have known you want to gold because I remember that was a thing. I was like, what does Cameron wear? What jewelry? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. He got that right. You know, I love David because he loves you. Do you know? That's why I love him. If someone ever hurts him, like I will use pines with a quietness to slander and destroy their reputation. You just say the word.

Like I love him because he loves you. And I was just thinking like one good thing, you know, because all of us, every human being watching this love him because he loves you. And I was just thinking like one good thing, you know, because all of us, every human being watching this has grievances about their parents. And then I'm not saying they're illegitimate. I'm just saying like, yeah, whatever. But like to focus for a second on what our parents did well, I think one of the best things they showed me was how well dad loved mom and how well mom loved dad. And what I mean is, like dad was just super into mom. Like always calling her babe and like flirting with her.

And like we were home recently and mom came out. She had just been in the shower, kind of doing her like middle-aged waddle woman walk. And he's like, come here, darling. And she sits on his lap and he's like drying her hair. Oh, what? That's so cute. It's like all the time, right? Yeah. But then the thing is like, Mum would never say anything bad about Dad.

True. She was always defending Dad and like deferring to Dad. And like, you know, you meet some women, they they talk about their husbands. Yes. It's so disgusting how they do it. They think it's OK. Yeah. I heard I was recently I was like having lunch with these three women talking and they're just going off about their husbands. I'm like, so unattractive.

Yeah, talk to your husband about that. Maybe you deserve all of the criticism because how you appear to me right now, you're probably even worse than what he's telling you. But, you know, if you just swap that, imagine if it was three men at a table like bitching about their wives, everyone would realize that's inappropriate.

But when women do it, it's sort of okay. So I think mum did a really good job at always speaking well of dad. We spoke to her recently, I forget the number, they've been married for either 40 or I think it's 45 years. And David was like, do you have any advice? And dad was so good. He's like, just tell her you love her every day. He could have said some joke about, oh, you don't get that from the end

slaughter or something. Just give her a kiss every day. It was so freaking cute. Did I tell you what dad said to me when I showed him my wedding ring? What did he say? Maybe? Well, I showed him the engagement ring. I think I wanted to show him the engagement ring. I, so I told dad I was going to propose to Cameron before I told mom kind of to honor him. Like I thought he'd be honored by that. And I kind of wanted to know what you think. So we went for a walk and I showed him the ring. The first thing he says, bloody hell, it's small. Dad! You always get the truth with dad.

You always get the truth with dad, don't you? If mom praises you, yeah, maybe. You show dad something, he'll tell you, I don't like that. If he says it's good, it's good. Anyway, so it was really cool. He kind of gave me advice and the advice was really good, but it was like cloaked in like Aussie dad lingo that made it sound non-profound. Well, mate, you know, you get these buddy guys, they jump in and out of bed with everybody, Sheila. So you just stay true to truthful, true to her. Right? Something like that.

Awesome. Like, so what he just said was, it's important to have fidelity in your marriage and not fornicate. Like he could have said, jumping in and out of bed, buddy, every Sheila. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah, it's beautiful. The mum and dad are still married. You know, you see people in divorces are common, especially in good old Port

Paris, but, um, yeah, it's such a blessing. Yeah. What was it like going back to Piri last on? It was great. Yeah. I, I don't know anyone there anymore. Yeah. Is that you too? I ran into a few people who I once upon a time knew, and have like maybe one friend that I see. But I love it. It is really nostalgic, but it's always home, you know, and hanging out with Tom, he's just the best.

That's our brother. FYI, Tom is the best. There is a third, Fred. Yeah, it's great. And David loves it too, which is awesome. He, he just goes out during the day and well, before we had Cordelia anyway, he would go out and just find lizards and a lot of these things can kill you, David. It's not totally.

But yeah, and he's really good. He's really adamant that he wants Cordelia to know where she's, you know, her homeland of Australia. And he's like, let's go back, you know, once a year or once every two years and let's go for a long time. You know? Yeah. Yeah. I look forward to doing that as well. I want to go back again with all the kids.

It gets bloody expensive, but. Yes, I bet. Yeah. I actually had a really healing time going back to Australia. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. Cause I was, I got invited by the Bishop Fisher in Sydney and it was really great. There's some amazing things happening in Australia, really solid Catholics.

That's good to hear. I didn't experience that too much. Something about the, the Maronite men, these kind of bloody men from, I don't know where they're from. And, but they're just so cool and manly. And the bishop there is awesome. And I think a lot of it has to do with this good man, Cardinal Pell on his example. Yeah, I don't know much about Pell and I don't know much about Bishop Fisher. I've heard great things. But yeah, yeah.

So, I mean, Pell, I met him once in an aeroplane. I think it was World Youth Day Canada. I was on my way home with Bishop Hurley. It was funny. I think it was World Youth Day Canada. I was on my way home with Bishop Hurley. It was funny, I remember speaking of World Youth Day and the bishop and Australian sayings and things Americans wouldn't understand. I remember we were going on a big hike, you know, like in World Youth Day,

cause you're going to where the mass is celebrated and someone was complaining about and he didn't go to the bathroom. And Bishop Hurley, who's not in his clerics, right? Cause we're all hiking, he's like, all right, well tie a knot in it, fellas. And so I was like, that's your bishop? Yeah, that's not in his clerics, right? Cause we're all hikings. Like, all right, well, tie a knot in it, fellas. And so I was like, that's your bishop. Yeah, that's bishop.

I've never heard that. Tie a knot in it, fellas. And I don't want people to get the wrong impression. He's a holy man. His homilies are so profound and beautiful. He loves Jesus Christ. He's a good, good, good, good priest, but tie a knot in it, fellas.

An American being like, is that your bishop? Yeah. It's so funny. But yeah, I met him on an airplane, but he was like the conservative voice in Australia for so long. So the media loved to hate him. Yeah. And then of course, falsely accused him.

He ended up in prison because of them. And he passed away. He's dead. Yeah. Last year, January 10th, I think. Yeah. In Italy. But then Fisher's a Dominican, really bright, really bright, really faithful, yeah, in Italy. But then Fischer's a Dominican, really bright, really bright, really faithful, but really Aussie. That's what's so cool. Yeah, it's really cool. I experienced this to a small degree meeting the sisters of the

Immaculata last week after you don't hear an Australian accent or engage with any Australians, and then you meet a bunch of them. It's like oh my gosh, like you really see it for what it is Just do you think Americans feel I'm sure Americans feel that way probably but it's got to be different. Yeah That's the man thing whatever it is, it's got to be different. There's something about Australians I just love Australians in the sense of humor. Yeah So Cardinal powers with I was at the North American College in Rome where priests from America go and study. And one of them was telling me that when Pell would go there, he would lead adoration. He'd always have one of the seminaries sit next to him and tell him, poke me when I fall asleep.

Because he was getting old and he'd start, poke me if I start snoring. That's awesome. You imagine having that job? I'm so sorry. You told me to do this. Yeah. Have you? He actually wrote a prison journal. I've heard of it. I have it on the bookshelf. You should definitely read some because they're so plain.

Mm. Awesome. It's what he doesn't make. He didn't make himself a martyr. I would have like I'd be like, oh, like, I don't know. I hope I wouldn't have. But I think a lot of people would have. They would have made it way more dramatic. But when he got out of prison, wrongly accused,

the entire world falsely thinks he's a pedophile. And then even one of the people says, actually I lied about it the whole time, that never happened. Like that actually came out and he was totally vindicated. And he's on news and they're asking what it was like. And he's like, well, it was like a long retreat. Really, I want some time. Send me prayers.

Wow. That was a sentence. Send me prayers. That's such an Australian priest thing. That's amazing. Oh, my gosh. I pray that I have the grace to react like that. Can you imagine everyone thinking you've done this horrific thing? And even the people who love you think, well, I mean, it's possible. Yeah. Yeah.

Be brutal. I can't imagine that. Be brutal. It would. Yeah, you could see how it would I mean, it's possible. Yeah. Yeah. I can't imagine that. It would. Yeah. You could see how it would tear someone down. Like just. Men, have you checked out Exodus 90 lately? If you've heard of Exodus 90 before, you're probably thinking Lent and cold showers, but the Exodus 90 app offers so much more. It's a daily companion to help you grow closer to God and to become the man you want to be. I've been following along with the app's daily scriptures, reflections and prayers and it's awesome. On the app you'll learn more about St. Michael's Lent which starts August 15th and leads up

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So what is the trajectory for you and your husband David and you know music projects and labels you do you have plans for that or? Yeah so we have a record label it's called Enemy Love Records. Love the name. Thank you it was inspired by a homily Archbishop Mark in Brisbane. It's funny we were when we were trying to come up with names for our label just in regular conversation someone would say something you know know, like the black chair and I'd be like, black chair records, we just like keep trying to save things.

Yeah, flat white records. Exactly. And Bishop Mark was giving a homily on that, you know, the gospel of loving your enemies. And he said the phrase enemy love. And I went to Dave and I said, enemy love records. And that was it, it stuck. So we kind of have two arms of our ministry, our label,

our label. One of the arms is ministry and the other is making music. So in regards to the ministry, what we did in Australia anyway, I tried for so long to try and improve music in Australian churches. Oh yeah. But people are stuck in their ways

and it's difficult to influence when you're a young girl like me, I suppose. So we took it at a different angle. Instead of trying to show people like, this is how you play piano without it sounding bad, you know, we just said, let's just not even touch instruments. Let's just do a spiritual retreat for musicians. So it was beautiful.

We went to a lot of places, Darwin, Cairns, Adelaide, went to New Zealand, Christchurch, Auckland, Hamilton. And we ran retreats for all these oldies in the churches playing music and we just evangelized them. And it was really cool. A lot of them said, I've been doing this for 30 years and the best I've got is like, thanks from the priest maybe. So it was really cool, really powerful. David's a very gifted presenter. I have my one talk on the Eucharist that I love to give. And so yeah, that was kind of our ministry arm.

And then our other arm was just, yeah, we wanna, even though I just totally bagged Catholic music as being bad, that was my experience of it anyway, but David convinced me otherwise. I think what it was is when Iged Catholic music as being bad. That was my experience of it anyway, but David convinced me otherwise. I think what it was is when I hear Catholic music, I just hear people trying to sound like Protestants, just like praise and worship. It's like Protestants do that better, just let them.

But I guess what bothers me about that is I'm so, as I've shared previously, I'm just so about being individual and being unique and being real. And yeah, basically, we want to find good Catholic music that doesn't just sound like a cookie cutter thing. Yeah. And yeah, we wanted to just show off like showcase that. So didn't you have a Spotify playlist or something? What's it called? if you just search enemy love records as a profile we have a playlist called Catholics unearthed where you'll find a lot of Hand-picked Catholic artists who are kind of more Indian and not necessarily even saying the word Jesus at all, you know, it just be

People writing a song about an experience they had that even though it's not explicitly about God It is Catholic in the sense that it's true and good. So yeah, we have some great artists on there. And yeah, we've met a lot of really cool people. Actually the guy who just produced this song that comes out today, Christopher St. Clair, he's an incredible producer. We met him through that and his fiancee, Margaret Knapp, is a great musician. Sorry, getting sidelined.

Yeah, so there was a few artists on our label. Right now we've kind of reduced, but yeah, there was a girl from New Zealand, Valer, who was on our label. She's got a beautiful voice. She's awesome. Like R&B, like really actually gifted, like writes good songs. So we did a tour with her around Australia and around New Zealand and.

What does a label do? A label kind of does a lot of the, should do a lot of the admin so you don't have to. So it helps promote your music everywhere. And it depends, there's a graph that's helpful where it's like a manager and a publicist and a record label and what they all do. But a label usually is, it's something you're locked into.

You have a contract with them. So you might say, I'm gonna write three albums in three years, put them out through this label and they would get a cut of some of that. Yeah, so is it sort of like a publisher? Like when I've written books before, sometimes you have to agree to give them right of first refusal on your next

and then they produce it and they pay for it upfront, but then you get a cut or it. Yes, it can be like that, but there's different ways you can do it depending on the contract, depending on the artist. So yeah, so David and I are on the label. We have the layer from New Zealand. Yeah. Interior Castle, my England band is on there. So still on there even though the band's ended? Yeah, well we put out a song last year. We don't have any plans to do anything in the near future,

but we put out a single last year for fun. So yeah, we just wanna find good music. So if there's people watching who are musicians who wanna get in touch with you, do you guys have a website or email? Yeah, we have a website, enemyloverecords.comcom enemyloverecords.gmail.com is the email if you want to send music. Yeah, but David's a producer, but I'm a producer as well. But David's way better. So that was a really cool thing we did with an artist, Amber Highland

in Brisbane was she she's got this incredible voice and she came to us, you know, she's more of a singer. She showed us her song with a guitar and we were just able to take that. And okay, we had our friend Miles do the drums and David did the bass, I did the guitar and we just kind of evolved with this song. And that's a lot of fun that we have doing with that. But yeah, we have dreams to, you know,

do some Catholic music festivals and just change the- Cool. How people see Catholic music. Have you heard Mark Barnes and his band? and just, just change the, cool. How people see Catholic music. Have you heard Mark Barnes and his band? Dear other. Yeah, they're great. They're on our playlist. They're unbelievable. They are good. Yeah. Yeah. He's a good storyteller. That's cool. Yeah. I don't know if it was their band, but it was like them and some brass instruments. I'm not sure.

It was more jazzy. Interior Castle did a show with them in Steubenville like 10 years ago. Yeah, that was cool. Yeah, so they're a great example of a good Catholic band, but yeah, we just, we love music. We're a very music oriented family. David just wrote a funk album. So I've been learning a lot of bass for that.

So much fun. I'm very biased, but I think it's an incredible album. What's it like writing with your husband? Well, we didn't write it together. He wrote all of it. That's why it's awesome. He wrote everything and I'm just learning what he wrote. But you have written, have you written songs together or no? A little bit. Yeah, actually the song Firing Range that comes out today, he helped with some of that, which was really helpful because when I get stuck, he's like, try this weird chord. And he helped with some of that, which was really helpful. Cause when I get stuck, he's like, try this weird chord. And yeah, it's awesome.

Yeah. Yeah. It's good when it's, it's good when it's kind of, okay, this is my song and you can just give suggestions. And if I say no, it's not offensive. Cause it's my song. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we have to talk about our horror stories before we wrap up.

Unless there's more you wanted to say about that. No, no. Right. So you and I have a podcast called Sibling Horror. Yeah. And it's funny, the only I usually someone in the coffee shop today just said that they they've read it. Did I give it to you? Because that's the only way people buy our books.

If I like hand it to them and ask them to please read it. Well, that's three people in this town has said, oh, you write those stories of man. I'm like, hey, cool. People actually listen. I'm known for horror instead of my brilliant music that I've been putting all this time and effort into. Can I please give a side quest of that about being known for something? David likes picking up animals, as I've told you.

Last year, he picked up this huge carpet snake in the middle of the road. I saw that. It got like a million views on Instagram. And he's like friggin hell like My art and music again and what I'm known for is like picking up this snake. Yeah. Anyway, that's so funny. Yeah. So, okay Make a quick defense of horror to those who are thinking you're satanic right now. I Actually would love to hear yours because I I don't think it's wrong to be entertained by horror, but I don't have

a great worded argument as to why. I will say that I think I prefer the term like strange fiction than horror because a lot of horror that is out there in the world is trash and you should not watch it. It's full of too much gore, too much sex. But I think it's okay to be entertained by something that isn't necessarily good. And you see that in every genre, you know, in action, in drama, there's always like an evil or an obstacle or something. And I think if all the horror I watched or not, I guess I listened to it more than watch it. If it all ended in like just and everyone died or like evil one, I wouldn't listen to it.

The majority of horror I listen to is, you know, knife point horror where the person telling the story survives and he's changed because of it and he's grown or X, Y, Zed. Yeah. I love that you just said Zed. Hold on to that. Don't let them make you say Z. Yeah. So I don't know. What's your defense? Do you have a good? Um, I, yeah, I would begin by saying there is perhaps no other genre so filled with trash. Agree. Like there's no other legitimate genre. Obviously, there are illegitimate genres like porn, but like there is no other. And maybe that's a I'm kind of begging the question by assuming it's legitimate,

but there's no other like legitimate genre that's so filled with junk. I grant that. And yet, like what is horror? Like what does that word mean? It's like, well, it's horror or what is the genre? So whether it's stories or movies, it's something that evokes a strong feeling of fear or disgust or I don't know something else.

And that in itself sounds bad doesn't it? Yeah but I mean like the passion of the Christ did that for me. Totally. Do you know? Yeah. And then and there's like okay maybe it's a stretch to say that there were elements of the passion of the Christ that were horror but I don't know like that Satan carrying the baby.

Oh yeah. That was pretty scary. Yeah right. But then I think so I would say something like this. I don't know. I haven't thought about this argument for a while, but it would be something like if horror is intrinsically evil. And by that, I mean the genre is never permissible to read like it's always immoral. All right. So if horror is intrinsically evil, then,

and then you would just fill in the blank of a horror movie that you know isn't intrinsically evil. Right. So if horror is intrinsically evil, then a quiet place or Hansel and Gretel or some other legitimate scary film or book is evil. Right. But A Quiet Place isn't intrinsically evil. Therefore, horror isn't always evil. Yeah. Something like that.

Because I know people might think I'm choosing a tame example when I say Hansel and Gretel. That's actually a terrifying story. Cooking children. Yeah. You have an old woman who makes her house out of candy to bait children, fatten them up and kill them. That's really scary. And doesn't Chesterton say like fairy tales don't exist to show that there's good and evil like children know that there's good and evil, but it's to show them that evil

can be conquerable. He said it in better words. Right, right. He always does say everything in better words. I agree. But yeah, something like that. Yeah. Yes. No, I actually really so okay. So I think for me, I grew up I really liked X files. Same. And it was the same thing. It was this like, I liked strangeness and mystery, like it would just grip me. And it would almost like put me in touch with some other like, okay, the world's bigger than I think it is. The horizon is wider than I thought it was.

Like there's more to reality. It's stranger than I first suspected. Something like that. But what about you? When did you? Because I also watched a ton of horror films as a teenager that I wish I hadn't watched. Agree, and that was kind of my experience growing up.

Just, I watched a lot of trashy horror, but I did really love the Goosebump books growing up. I don't know, it's just something that, it's probably nostalgic for me. It's kind of stuck with me, but obviously when I converted and became Christian, a lot of things changed. What I watched, the games I played,

the music I listened to definitely changed. And it's very hard to find horror now that's digestible. It's hard to find almost any genre that's digestible. It's hard to find almost any genre that's digestible, like espionage or like, I don't know, thriller or detective movies. Like they're all filled with sex and crap. I just assume new movies. I just don't have the time to sort through them.

I know what you mean. So do you remember the first time I told you about Knifepoint Horror? Yes, and it was the perfect timing because I was in the Atlanta airport about to fly home to Australia. So just download, download,ia. And I big plug. Like if you like strange fiction, I mean, like anything, and it's so boring having to say this, but like anything that doesn't mean we approve of every single thing that's in every single story.

I don't think there's anything work in there at all though. Not work. I mean, there's a cage. Yeah, he doesn't, what's really interesting about the guy, like I'm pretty sure he's not a Christian, but he doesn't. I would love to know more about him, but I'd also like not to. I like that there's this mystery.

Yeah, but he's, he's, he's stuff's really excellent. It's just really interesting and it's well written, great stories. And that's what inspired us to write. Yeah, that's what I was going to get to. Yeah. So my mate, John Henry Spann is the one who put me in touch with knife point horror. I just loved it because it's these first person recountings of horrific events that took place. And I just loved it because it's these first person recountings of horrific events that took place and I just loved it. Do you have a favorite one? Ah, yes. I would say my favorite horror story ever written is Fields by Sorin Narnia. That's the one where.

Don't give it away for people. But yes, so feel free to say what it is. They hang out in a place and it makes them crazy in the in the fields. The guy starts that. It's that. Yes, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's it is so good. Yeah, that's awesome. But you remember like a big it's like this narrative where he's also reading these documents from 100 or 200 years ago about these settlers who moved into this area

and what they experienced. Crazy. Oh, my gosh. It talks about how their faces were put together wrong. Wow. Something about horror when you don't show, but you hint at. Like, he never says what he means by their faces were put together wrong. Yeah, you can just put that together in your own head. He just says that word, and you've got no idea what that could mean.

Yeah. Yeah, I love that. My favorite of his is Staircase. Love Stair. Love staircase. So good. The premise of the story is- I take it back. That's maybe my favorite. It's so well written. I remember like making my friends Zach and Maddie listen to that. Gosh. The premise is this guy wakes up in the middle of the night and he hears a sound on his staircase and that's it. He just can't stop thinking about it. You know, please go. Yeah. Go listen to this. I remember that line. He's like everyone at work got the story that day. You know, he's just telling people and imagine you would

if you were alone in a house and you heard a big creak on your staircase. You'd be thinking about it. You'd be telling people. And do you remember he said some people would dismiss it like I wish they knew how it would feel. Yeah. Just once just to hear that one. Cause he's in this big house and he just hears a creak. Yeah. And he said his body tensed up. He felt the temperature in his body rise and he hears it again, I think. Yeah. I don't know. But yeah, people should definitely go listen to that story.

But Fields is one of my favorite horror stories. And I would actually recommend, I like, I let, I let Avila, my daughter, listen to that. Like I let my kids listen to a lot of his stuff actually, because it's not what people tend to think of when they think of horror. All right. So when did we first go, Hey, what if we did this? You wrote the first story about actually have them all here.

And I thought it would be kind of cool unless you were desperate to leave or go to the bathroom. We should definitely go through them. Sure. But like, how did the idea come about that we thought let's think it was you. I think maybe you were like, I wrote this horror story. I think and you said we should try like we should try it. And I remember you wrote the first one about the floating heads, Jonathan Doyle's latest blog post. It has a horrible name. It should be Jonathan Doyle's last blog post. That's what

that one's called. Yeah. And I remember reading it being like, this is awesome. And I remember thinking like, oh, maybe I could, maybe I could do this. I'm not as articulate as you, but I bullcrap. You're a way better writer than I am. You kidding me. I think I have good ideas but you're good at actually like making them into words. I don't know. But yeah. And what's funny though is that we reached out to Soran and he agreed to read a lot of them. Yeah. How good was that? Because there's nothing scary about this. This voice, you know, I woke up in the middle of the night. And that's bloody terrifying. So he reads a lot of them, but then sometimes he couldn't. So I had to.

And then we have that a couple of women read different ones. All right. So the first was what Jonathan Doerr's last blog post. And by the way, I don't. It's nice, you know, when you were a kid and you would do something because it brought you joy and it never occurred to you that you had to be good at that thing. Right. Yeah. It's like that wasn't the point. I'm just enjoying it.

Yeah. And that's how I see writing these little stories. Like I don't think they're like great works of fiction or something. I just think I enjoy doing this. It'd be cool that we can go through them, but I'd love to hear out of all the ones you wrote, what's your favorite and other ones I wrote, which ones your favorite and vice versa. Yeah, I have a lot of favorites of mine.

One of them is, I really like, I know most people don't like this, but the one I wrote called Walls about the dog, I really like that story. And is that the crazy man just recounting? Yeah, I had just read a Dostoevsky short story that was similar. It's just like crazy guy recounting what just took place.

And so I thought that's a cool premise. So the whole story is about, and it was actually John Henry, my mate, who said to me, like, imagine if your dog looked at you one day and spoke to you and never spoke to you again. What would that do to you? It would actually destroy your brain. Like reality would fall apart. Yeah, right. And so that's- You would buy a lot more dogs and try and get it out of them. Yeah, and that's part of the story, right, where he's trying to coax it to talk in front

of his wife, Veronica. Right. I remember I wrote that in like half an hour, one night, like two in the morning, I just woke up. But the other story I like that I wrote that I remember when I first suggested it to you, you didn't like the idea about it because it involved the demonic, remember? But the reason I like this story is it's about a priest called Father John Sweeney, who was a lib priest who didn't believe in Satan, and then a woman in his parish is telling him that she's experiencing things going on in her house. He then has this encounter with something he can't explain and he has to get this

sweet old trad priest to help him. And they eventually overcome the evil. So it's like a hopeful story. And I hope it's the kind of story that gives glory to Catholicism. Yes, which a lot of horror doesn't do, which is why I just stay clear of it. I liked that as well. Let me tell you before you tell me some of your favorite ones. I'll tell you some of my favorite ones of yours. First of all, this latest one you wrote called The Voodoo Cabinet was so freaking brilliant. I knew it was good because you reacted like that.

I thought it was all right. Here, I want people to hear how it opens. Great idea. Bit of music. This is the part of the interview where no one's watching anymore. It's just like three weird people and you and me. we can we could not feel the impression be interesting at this point People like okay, they took another horror story another. Okay. Listen to how this opens or how long does it take? There's articles and lost interviews I Had memorized that long title. I love her voice. Yeah

She's great. Why didn't you read it? Cause I've got an Australian accent. Yeah, well so do I. Yeah, and I really liked that actress. She's really good. What I love about our story is that their first person recount, I love how simple that. All right, what's some of your best, your favorite ones?

My favorite one of yours is the man outside my house. Oh my gosh, that's such a good one. And you act that, and I think you do it so well. Thank you. And yeah, I remember hearing that and being like, this is very scary. That was a good one. Yeah. What were some of your favorites of yours? I think the best one I wrote is Missing Cat, just because of the twist and I won't share what it is, but yeah. Yeah. I think that's a good one. You'll be funny as if we like read some of our bad reviews. Oh, yeah. Sibling horror.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, my girl. You I'm just going to say this. You also wrote one about pumpkins that hasn't been released yet. And it's so good. You have to do it. Halloween this year. Yeah, I really need to. Alright someone said the crawling men oh that's that one I wrote well it's not called that but a fine story in every way that's nice. This person said what a great story thank you thank you. This okay these are all nice ones. There is a bad

one on that Apple podcast. Well, here's a bad one. Bring Sorinania back as the narrator. Totally different vibe. That's totally because of me. That's fair. Oh, this person has one star. Little orphan podcast. When you write nothing for months at a time, people lose interest.

It's true. I don't know why I had to give her that kind of voice. She may have just went, look guys, like when you... Oh, yeah. But that is, that's true. Like I think the last time we released this story was months ago. Okay, this one, truly horrible storytellers have absolutely no talent.

I mean, we got some talent, it's not like it's none. It's like a, even if it's just little. A drop in the ocean. got some talent. It's not like it's none. It's like even if it's just little. A drop in the ocean. Absolutely no talent. I know everyone thinks they have creative talent, but it's clear that the people who made sibling horror don't know what they're doing. And that's fine. If you like to listen to amateur hour stories, this show is completely,

the superlativesatives like too much, completely without good qualities. You'd think that there's some silver lining, but there's not. Sibling Horror is likely the most unoriginal, boring and perhaps laughable, perhaps laughable, podcasts I've ever listened to. It's not compelling. This is long and it's not interesting. It's not even worth laughing at. See, so they just said it's potentially laughable. Contradiction.

That is such a great and I love the title. I wish we could. The title is embarrassing. One star I love the title. Can we pin that? I wish we could. The title is embarrassing. One star. That's great. It's awesome. You'd never say that to someone's face, would you? Would you?

If you were mad at them, maybe. I remember when you first came out with this logo. This is the first logo we did. And I was like, that's a bit scary for people. So maybe we shouldn't do that. And then I was like, we got to do it. Bring it back. It's so horrific. Yeah. Good ideas for horror. All right. I got a couple of ideas for a horror story and I'll run them by you now. I've got two I can think of. You go first. Well, one is a really old

idea you had that I loved. And it's the idea of a guy who there's some kind of monster or something and you can only see in your peripherals and if you look at it, you die. But imagine living and you could just see something. Yes. Yeah. I don't, yeah. How would you know that you'd die? Obviously there's other people maybe who have done that.

Yeah, maybe someone in his family. Will you get damaged the closer you focus on it or something? Maybe, maybe someone in his family leaves him a letter explaining about it or something. I don't know. Yeah, I like that. I think when I thought of that story, I thought about a dentist's office because you know when you're at a dentist's office, you're kind of looking straight ahead and your head is sort of...

Yep. And maybe there's... Okay, so that's good. All right. I'll go now. I like this idea of a guy or a girl who starts waking up every few weeks with a broken something. Imagine waking up with a broken finger, and it's like seriously bruised and mutilated. And then like a week goes by and it starts off small, right? So the person doesn't die too quickly. Like maybe like their earlobe fell off or their toe broke and they've got no idea and it's starting to get worse and other things come into the story to make it seem like there's something else happening. That's good.

Like maybe the barista asks something showing that maybe they have a clue as to why they're going through. I like that. That's good. But John Henry had a story where I love this idea. One day. You realize that your hometown does not exist and no one's ever heard of it. John Henry should write. That's a great one. He's really good.

And you go to your bookshelf to pull out the year book or something about it. And it's either not there or it has different information. That's so good. Isn't that good? That is really good. You should definitely write that story. All right. We need a good ending.

You need to think about that. That's good. Yeah. I had an idea. This is really simple. And I don't know if I was inspired by something I saw, but imagine you're in a house alone and a creepy man comes to the door and kind of says, there's someone in your house. You need to get out.

You don't wanna get out, cause he's so creepy. So you shut the door and then you have to live that night in your house. Is there someone there? I don't know. That's really good. Yeah, and then maybe the point of the story can be playing on the tricks your mind plays

throughout the night. Yeah. And then never knowing. Yeah. Then maybe you find out in the morning that this guy's been going around to everyone's house doing it. Yeah.

And so there's this sense of relief that he's crazy, but then you realize there is somebody in every house and every town. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. That's our next level. I had this one idea of a guy who murders his family and stuffs their dead corpses in the walls. That's a bit much.

Don't you think? It's kind of cool. It's kind of cool. And then, um, I don't know if I'm into that, but you find that out at the end, but it begins with him like hearing voices and there turns out like they're coming from the walls So it's him he hears voices and yeah, he's hearing no so he's hearing voices in the walls, maybe scratching stuffs going on and you he eventually finds out that they've And would it be like he was in denial?

Maybe starts smelling stuff and he just bought the house Is he in denial that he did it? And the point of the story is he's kind of confronted with his sin? Oh, that's good. I was thinking it's a new guy who moves into the house. The last guy killed his family, put him in the walls and left. Right. It'd be cool if that was the reveal at the end. It was me. He's the guy.

There's a great story by Stephen King. It's called Strawberry Fields. You would love it. It's so good, even Soran agrees, and he did a reading of it, and it's on his Patreon, and I will get it for you. Sweet.

Is it a short story? It's a short story, and I won't give it away. No, I won't say anything else. Yeah, it's actually really, really quite good. I've tried to read Stephen King before and couldn't. He's, I don't like him. He's kind of gross. Yeah, he's gross, he's sexual. Yes, he's sexual when he doesn't need to be. I've tried to read Stephen King before and couldn't. He's... I don't like him. He's kind of gross.

Yeah, he's gross, he's sexual. Yes, he's sexual when he doesn't need to be. Yeah, it's almost like he has issues. I'm like, yeah, I don't... Yeah. Okay, so I had another idea for a story, but... It's hard to come up with good ideas. It's funny how they come to you. It's kind of... It's hard when they've all been done before. But I think the best stories are really simple.

Well, Stephen King said, having just criticized him, I love this point. He said there's a thin line between comedy and horror. Yes. Yep. Because every horror story you can think of, if you twist it slightly, it's funny. Yes. What we just said is kind of I don't know if that's funny. I remember thinking that when you were we have a story called Lady Long and you had an idea about a guy waking up in the middle of the night looking out the window and there's a

girl sitting on the swing with like really long arms. And her arms are twisted around the chains and her hands are all over the bars and the backlight of the porch goes on he sees her for like two seconds and the light goes off and goes on again and she's not there. Oh my god! See that is funny but not. kind of funny, but freaking terrifying. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. And what's tough tough tough too is when you've written a story and you've

like this new story I'm dealing with, I've just changed the ending. I haven't told you about it. Okay. Yeah. To make it less obvious. When you work on a story so long and it's just like, you hate it so much. Not romantic anymore. Just get me out of this experience. Yeah. But anyway. All right, Emma, thanks so much for being on the show. Yeah, thanks for having me. Any final thoughts or comments? Your song is going to come out the day this releases.

Yes. So we're going to put a link to it in the top of the comment section. So people should go check it out. Yeah. And they should check out enemy love records, which is your label with David. You can follow me on Instagram as well. Just Emma Fradd, one word. Yeah. Thanks for being on. Thank you.