Pints With Aquinas - The Beauty of Religious Life and How to Discern It (Sr. Mary Rachel, O.P.) | Ep. 564

Episode Date: February 2, 2026

Sister Mary Rachel, OP, Director of Novices for the Nashville Dominicans, joins Pints With Aquinas host Matt Fradd to discuss how to identify your vocation, obedience to your call, and what to do if you haven't found yours yet. Sister provides a joyful and peaceful witness to the beauty and importance of female religious life as part of a healthy Church. Ep. 564 🙏 Connect with the Nashville Dominicans: NashvilleDominican.org - - - Today's Sponsors: Hallow: Deepen your personal relationship with God today. Visit https://hallow.com/MattFradd to get 3 months free. Catholic Match: Download the app or head to https://CatholicMatch.com and find your forever. PrayR Group: Get a St. Joseph Chaplet free at https://chaplet.shop  St. Paul Center: Join the Bible Study movement alongside a global community. Sign up today at https://stpaulcenter.com/pints Charity Mobile: Visit https://charitymobile.com/MATTFRADD to get started. - - - Become a Daily Wire Member and watch all of our content ad-free: https://www.dailywire.com/subscribe 🍿 The Pendragon Cycle: Rise of the Merlin is here. Episodes 1-3 are now streaming exclusively on DailyWire+ - - - 📕 Get my newest book, Jesus Our Refuge, here: https://a.co/d/bDU0xLb 🍺 Want to Support Pints With Aquinas? 🍺 Get episodes a week early and join exclusive live streams with me! Become an annual supporter at 👉 ⁠⁠https://mattfradd.locals.com/support⁠⁠ - - - 💻 Follow Me on Social Media: 📌 Facebook: https://facebook.com/mattfradd 📸 Instagram: https://instagram.com/mattfradd 𝕏 Twitter/X: ⁠https://twitter.com/Pints_W_Aquinas⁠ 🎵 TikTok: ⁠https://tiktok.com/@pintswithaquinas⁠ 📚 PWA Merch – ⁠https://dwplus.shop/MattFraddMerch 👕 Grab your favorite PWA gear here: https://shop.pintswithaquinas.com - - - Privacy Policy: ⁠⁠https://www.dailywire.com/privacy⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

With Amex platinum, almost every purchase made with your card can be covered with points, including new tastes, new fits, and virtually everything in between. That's the powerful backing of Amex. Conditions apply. I was guilty of multiple skin care crimes. Two counts of sleeping and makeup. One count of using disposable wipes. I knew my routine had to change. So I switched to Garnier-Missler water.

It gently cleanses, perfectly removes makeup. make up and provides 24-hour hydration. Clear away the evidence with the number one Missler Water worldwide by Garnier. Can I give you a devil's advocate sort of accusation? What is the point of female religious sisters anyway? Without a concrete witness of religious, there is a danger that the charity that animates the church will grow cold, especially in a world undergoing secularization. Asking why do we need religious is something like asking?

why do we need beautiful architecture? Because when you have beautiful things, people act beautifully. When everything around them says to them you're a cog in the machine, you're a rat, then we shouldn't be surprised when they act like that. To choose to sit within your own poverty, just scrolling, scrolling, scrolling, to put it away feels like a death. What I really want, what I really need, what I really desire comes to the surface. What that is then can be confronting.

Somebody had given me the great advice in your discernment of life. first establish your life of prayer. And out of that life of prayer, either the Lord will call you to marriage and Jesus will be the center of that marriage. Or if he calls you to religious life, you'll just continue to get to know him more and more. How did the devil try to discourage you from this vocation? Plenty of times. Hello. Thank you so much for coming on my show.

It's a joy to be here. Joy to be with you. How far are you away from? Well, maybe don't say exactly. But you were in the city of Nashville? Yes. Yes. How many sisters are there?

So currently during the school year there's about 150 sisters. Come on. But at Christmas time, when most sisters come home, about 3.30. That's amazing, isn't it? It's a great grace. Sorry, 150, but usually 3.30? In the Christmas time or in the summertime. It's a lot of women.

It's a lot of women. Yeah. How do you deal with that? Are we going to go deep right away? I don't know, whatever you want to do. No, it's a great blessing. Oh, my goodness, to be with that many women who desire to give their whole lives to our Lord and to the church, it's pretty phenomenal. It's phenomenal.

I would love to swing by one day. I'm sure I can't. I don't know. Can I come? Yeah, we've got Vespers daily prayer. You'd be most welcome. Wow. For sure.

Now, when did you join? 1996. Amazing. Yeah, so a couple years ago, a few years ago was Silver Jubilee. and yeah so 1996 and then I've been at the mother house in Nashville and our mother house has been around since 1860 so I had to step into that Dominican tradition but have been sent different places. Are people surprised when they see you? Do you like is in your day-to-day life, is it a common occurrence that you encounter people being

surprised at you? Yes, yes. And that surprises me because we've been in Nashville. since 1860, but, you know, there's times when people say, where do you live or where are you from are the first time they see us? And I think that surprised me because we've been around. But, yes, quite often. Does anybody think you are something other than a Catholic nun?

Just because I'm sure they've never encountered Catholic nuns, maybe some people? Yes, for sure. No one's asking you if you're dressing up or if you're Muslim or something? Oh, no, no, all of that. And just the other day, in fact, we're traveling. I was traveling with a group of novices. stopped at the gas station. And this man walked in and just stopped in his tracks and looked at me.

And I stopped in my tracks then because he was looking right at me. And I just said, come, Holy Spirit, I have no idea what this is. Right. What's going to happen right now? And he said, is it Halloween? And I said. And it was a serious question. Serious question.

And I said, nope. I'm the real deal. What's your name? I said, I'm John. I said, good to meet you, John. I'm Sister Mary Rachel. God bless you. And those kinds of, you know, when those kinds of experiences happen often or somebody

recently asked what I was wearing, you know, on my head. And so just able to explain it. You know, wonderful opportunities, actually. I grew up, I knew a couple of nuns. None of them wore the habit. Yeah. What happened there? what happened after the second Vatican council that nuns decided to get rid of the habit and why is it a good idea to put it back on?

Oh yeah. The habit is a great grace. It's a great grace. It's quite the journey of the Second Vatican Council and the impact of the council and religious life in the United States and the world. We were really blessed at that time. Our community was blessed. to have strong leadership, prayerful, discerning leadership, that when the council began, well, firstly, we were excited about the council. The community was excited about the council, the church, the discerning church, church is mother at Magistra, right, mother and teacher. So people were excited about the council. And our leadership at the time, did something very wise. They placed into the hands,

our Superior General Mother, Mary William, placed into the hands of every sister, the documents of the church as they came out. So anything the Holy Father was writing, she was a firm believer that we would be reading, I wasn't there at the time, whether the sisters would be reading, the primary sources.

Right, well, not the spin. Right, that was put on them. Not the spin. The primary sources. And, you know, the church was asked, for renewal. That was needed, right? Some was needed, some went too far as we know. But there was the call to renew and adapt. And what our superior general decided was, and the church documents were asking for a spiritual renewal first before any adaptation. And so that's what our community

did. But to the external world, even the church, even those close to our community, there was almost, we were kind of looked upon, actually at that time, funnily enough, we were judged as liberal. Why aren't you changing? The church is asking change. Why aren't you changing? What do you? You're not doing anything. So isn't that interesting? So you all never got rid of the habit. Correct. Glory to God. That's right. Okay. Yeah. So what it was seen as liberal. Yeah. So at the time, And everybody's asking, why aren't you doing anything? And isn't that a call to, you know, strong leadership? But so we were, what we were doing was praying and studying. Thanks be to God, praying and studying and asking, what is, what's going on? And even when it got

to the point of the habit, there was so, there was so much confusion and so many different ideas that our superior general went to Rome and actually asked, we, we need to know what does the Holy Father want? What does he want? Met with Cardinal Meyer, who, was the, he was in charge of the congregation for religious at that time. And our superior general asked directly, does the Holy Father want us to get rid of the habit? The Cardinal said, by no means. Adapt as needed. Oh my goodness. You have, you have 10 people in your convent right now if you have got rid of the habit. It's a great sign. And it's a, it's a gift. It's a gift every day to put this habit on. Yeah. It's a gift. My wife was discerning the Sisters of Life.

Yeah. And who stole your habit and tried to upgrade it as we know, but we won't talk about that. But my wife talked about just the idea of wearing her wedding dress every day and walking down the aisle to receive her beloved in Holy Communion. Is it something like that? It is. It is. It is. And especially at the times, you know, we talk about at the times we ourselves need the reminder of who we are. Yeah. But also, people remind us who we are. but it's a great blessing and a great sign of not just a sign of poverty it's our lived poverty

you know we've got three of these and not a wardrobe and it's a very practical way we love our poverty must be hard to keep clean i'm shocked at how white that is oh thank you thank you it is you know but it's um what's it like when the sisters eat like pasta oh yeah you don't you don't do that's forbidden we do no we do just very careful and the sisters of life are our dear dear friends. Yeah, I know. They are dear friends. I'm just joking. Yeah, I know. I also joke that when I see them, it's like seeing the man my, my wife, rejected for me. You didn't get it. But I love the sisters of life. They're so beautiful. Yes, yes. Did you always want to be a nun? Um, I wouldn't say that. No, no, not always. Um, you know, the prospect wasn't all always there for me. I, um, you know,

you need to, in order to desire something, you've got to see it sometimes, you know. And that's what, you know, Paul talks about how people are going to know unless they hear. Did you grow up near? I grew up outside of Pittsburgh. Okay. Small town, Trafford, Pennsylvania. So, and I was taught by Sisters of Charity, beautiful sisters. And I was in touch with my second grade teacher until just a couple of years ago when she passed.

But so I knew the sisters, but I didn't. I didn't at that point, wasn't discerning. My mom once in a while would joke about, well, when you join the nunnery or something like that, you know. But it was not really a prospect or something I really thought about until I went to Francisco University. And there were, you know, vocation day or something like that. And I saw our sisters. And it was, well, what is that? Like seeing the habit.

And like immediate question was, people still do that? like, what is that, you know? And then began conversations and then discernment. This episode is sponsored by Hello, which is the number one prayer and meditation app in the world. And for good reason, it's fantastic. There's lots coming up on the Hello app. Lent is approaching. And they have a Pray 40 challenge this month, which we encourage you to join. all sorts of amazing people are going to be leading you through these prayers and meditation such as sister miriam james hydlin father mike schmits mother olga mark walberg chris pratt whoever thought you'd find that list of people in one sentence but amazing people doing amazing things

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That's hallow.com slash Matt Frad to get three months for free. Did it take you a while to discern between... You know what? The Lord worked quickly. Yeah. He worked quickly. Beautifully. So I was a freshman at Francisco University. Saw our sister for the first time.

And what happened was there was somebody that I had heard of who had entered our community. And the spring break that year, freshman year, a bunch of friends said, well, we're going to stop by Nashville on the way to Florida. Do you want to come with us? Yeah, great. So that was the first time I visited our mother house. Okay. And there was something I just kind of filed away, and it was the joy of the sisters. I wasn't quite thinking about it for myself yet.

Yeah. But there was something I thought, pay attention to this. Pay attention to the joy you're experiencing. It was a little bit, you know, disarming. But it was... That you, the joy you were experiencing or the joy you're encounter. Yeah, a little bit of both. Yeah.

Yeah, a little bit of both. And what is this, you know? And also some of the sisters that I met at first, their confidence, you know, their confidence in the Lord and in the church. And that was, they're kind of unapologetically Catholic and sisters and loved the Lord and loved to serve as people. That was very attractive, very attractive. And then began, wait a second as this. what you're calling me to, Lord. So it began the kind of second part of that,

taking it personally and beginning to ask. How beautiful. So you went straight to the motherhouse, as they call it. I did, yes. Yeah, it was between my junior and senior year, so I didn't finish it at Franciscan. It was a great grace. It was actually on the feast of St. Matthew.

I was studying in Austria. And the priest was preaching. He got up and he read out the call of Matthew. And then his homily was Matthew answered without hesitation. I thought, we've got one chance at this, you know. And when I look back at his call upon my life, do I want to say I heard and then I waited? That's not what I want to do.

I wanted to hear and say, oh, yes. Okay, yes, yes, Lord. And that was precipitated by hearing him in prayer a time of adoration of the direct invitation of... Tell me about that. Yeah, that was a... That was the call. You know, talk about the call and hearing the voice of the Lord. Somebody had given me the great advice in your discernment of life.

First, establish your life of prayer. And out of that life of prayer, either the Lord will call you to marriage and Jesus will be the center of that marriage. or if he calls you to religious life, you'll just continue to get to know him more and more. That took off so much pressure. I thought, yeah, that makes sense. Get to know this man, Jesus. And when he calls in whatever direction,

I will have learned to hear his voice, learn to trust him and rejoice in his call. And that just seemed simpler and easier. So I started to do that. Started to go to daily mass, make a holy hour. And it was in one of those holy hours. And every day I kind of badgered the Lord, what's your will, what's your will, what your will. And this priest gave great advice.

He said, spend the first half hour of your holy hour just praising. Just praise for the first half hour. Then. That's so good. Tell him who he is. Yeah. Yeah. Boy, is that hard to do for a half of an hour to praise.

So sometimes I'd get my Bible and I'd go out into the, there's a little station of the cross. And then I'd come back in and I'd continue in adoration. but that is hard to do to remain in a disposition of praise for half of a hour. Yeah, yeah. So, I was, it was in one of those holy hours, so simple. And I was asking the Lord,

I was in kind of like a relationship, a friendship that I wondered, is this going to go any further? But before it went any further, I thought, I've got to pray about this. With a fella. Yeah, with a fellow. Beautiful man of God, so prayerful.

And I just asked the Lord looking right at him in the blessed sacrament and asked, you know, as I was every day, what your will. But I asked about this gentleman, is this, do you want me to pursue this relationship? Because I need to be honest and upright and upfront. This is the story of my students, especially my high school boys, don't like this part. So there's a little warning, okay?

I had had this man and right there before my eyes and our Lord I said, do you want me to pursue this relationship? And it was as if the Lord went like this and that dear gentleman was a true gentleman for the Lord

and it was when the Lord that was the invitation when he said I have made your heart for me and no other man. That was wow that was something else because he knows us right he knows me he knows my sinfulness he knows my weakness and in that made the invitation and when he made that invitation my first thought was how

utterly free utterly free i was to say yes or no and i said wow okay so it was humbling it wasn't um yeah i'm all that it wasn't that it was humbling to hear him call me, and then to experience freedom of, I can say yes or no. And you desire that. You desire my freedom. It's like a marriage proposal, huh? Like when I proposed marriage to my wife, it wasn't a, you better do this. Or else you, it was an invitation which she was free to decline. Yes. Yes. And then I said, yes, Lord, yes.

And if this is your voice and your will, open the doors. If it's not close them, and I'll know. Beautiful. And it's beautiful because that day, I walked out of the port, portchoncula. And I walked up that path,

and I was about to meet my parents for an engagement party of friends of mine. And I just stopped and I looked up and I was like, I'm engaged. I think that's, that. Come on, that's lovely. That was it. Okay, let me just tell you another beautiful

part of this, okay? Please. So I mentioned I just celebrated my Jubilee, 25 years. And I had the great grace to go back to Franciscan University, and I went to that port within that year of my 25th anniversary. So, of course, I was in there praying and thanking the Lord for all that he's done and all that, all of his goodness and mercy. And I walked out that day, remembering the moment, and ready for this one?

Yeah. I wish I had a picture to show you. I walked out and I remembered that engagement moment and I looked up and I couldn't believe it. There was a huge cloud in the shape of a heart with three little clouds like those thought bubbles. Okay. Lord, you are faithful. Yes. And see every detail.

Yes. Isn't that beautiful? Isn't he good? He's very good. He's better than we think he is. Way better. It's part of the good news. Yes.

Yes. How did the devil try to discourage you from this vocation? Plenty of times. Thanks for asking that. Plenty, plenty. And I'm glad you asked it. Firstly, I want to give a little plug to Teresa Bavala, right? Who says, you know, we could get sidetracked by the enemy and focus too much on him.

And she says, you know, we could say we'd get distracted by. his tactics and say, look, diablo, diablo, like the devil to devil, the devil, the devil, and she said, but I would far rather say, Lord, Lord. Amen. However, it's important to be aware. Yeah, there were some, yeah, some significant battles. Yeah, I don't want to press into anything to personal. No, no, no, I'm happy to share.

Yeah, I'm happy to share. Yeah, I'm happy to because I think it's, please, Lord, instructive. and to just proclaim the mercies and glories of the Lord and his constant protection and providence. First one was a big one because I entered the community. And, you know, I wondered, is this really the place for me? Or is, or not? Is there somewhere else that he's leading?

and I don't know that I was 100% open at first with my novice mistress. I should have just said. I should have just said that. I'm struggling with some things, and I want to lay it all before you trusting in the grace of your office. So I did the stupid thing we do, and I tried to fight on my own. And it was that idea of, is this where I'm sort of,

supposed to be or not, that kind of I wrestled with too long, but the Lord is good. What happened was I started to not live the life well and I wasn't happy. And so I was wrestling with things. In what sense we're not living in life well? I wasn't living it well in terms of like my thought, I was allowing too many thoughts of the evil one to come in, you know, maybe critical or that, or more thoughts of doubts, more doubts of, is this where I'm supposed to be? And then I, like, almost like the anxiety that comes with that. Here I am trying to figure this out on my own, and that's an anxious place to be. So allowing that to go to kind of too long.

And my novice mistress, we have conferences where we catch up and I was saying some things. And I finally kind of asked. And she gave kind of the freedom of, you know, you need to pray about it and decide. I went away that day. And this is fascinating because I was in our cemetery at the motherhouse asking our sisters to pray. And this is when the evil one really spoke a lie. and he said, you know, you are, you're very proud. If you were humble, you would leave and face all the people like all of your friends and your family.

You would leave this place and show them your true humility by leaving. It's like, wow, that sounds like a good idea. What in the world? Talk about topsy-turvy. There was a sister in the cemetery at that time who's now deceased. she's a dear friend and I ask her prayers often. And I think she saw this little sister postulant kneeling before the statue of the Blessed Mother in our cemetery.

Probably glanced over and just whispered a prayer. And maybe her prayer is what saved my vocation because right after that I decided to leave. And I went to that afternoon. I thought I'm going to go to my novice and just tell her, yeah, I've decided to leave. But this is when the goal. when the Lord intervened.

I was in the chapel, I'm just crying my eyes out, just in the stew of temptation. Yucky place to be. It's hard to see clearly, isn't it? It's so hard. You said the topsy-turvy thing, but when you're in the midst of that warfare, it just feels like logic and reality.

Hard to see through. Yeah, yeah. And so this is where the miraculous intervention of our Lord, there was the priest, same priest, the same priest who said, Matthew answered without hesitation, that same priest. We don't really get phone calls when we're a postulate, you know, first year in the convent, unless it's an emergency.

But the sister portress came into the chapel and says, you have a phone call, and you have permission to take the phone call. I was like, phone call. She said, it's father. I don't catch his name. I said, okay. So I went out, got the phone. and I said, you know, hello. And Father said, sister, how are, you know, the dangerous question, how are you?

Oh my goodness, I just broke down. And I said, I don't know. I don't, I don't know if I'm supposed to be here. I don't, I don't know if I'm supposed to be here. And all he said was, sister, this is a temptation. And as who does he set it? That grace. Let there be light.

Let there be light. And it was like Paul talks about. The scales literally fell. The scales just fell from my eyes. He said, you're right where you're supposed to be. This isn't the time to decide. And I said, okay. What happened within you when he said that?

The clarity. So you just talked about the, you know, we were talking about the topsy-turvy, the darkness, the anxiety. And the naming, this is a temptation. It was sort of spaciousness, opened up. Yeah, opened up. and a peace and a joy. And I left with that phone call was like maybe 20 seconds, half of a minute.

You know, like half of a minute. It wasn't very long. Why did he call you? You know, out of the blue. But for any other reason? Just to say hi. It was a feast of epiphany. I guess he just filled the Holy Spirit come upon him and he decided to call me.

And so I left there. I went back into the chapel and I just knelt down and I was like, thank you. Thank you. I mean, I couldn't even say words, but that image of. Paul was so clear. Yeah. I went back up to my novice mistress. And I said she used to have a thing where she talked about like if you like reenter,

if you haven't entered, if you, you know, if you need to, you know, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, if you need to reenter, then just reenter. So I said that. I said, I'd like to reintroduce myself. And I, and she just looked at me. She could tell something was different about me. Yeah. And she said, what happened?

I said, a father called. and I don't even, I don't know. And she said, then she said, in about one week, call him because you owe him, you're a vocation. Whoa. So every epiphany I pray for and I thank the Lord. And I pray from other times, but that was one of the times. This episode is sponsored by Catholic Match. With Valentine's Day being this month, our culture tells us that dating apps are the way to go.

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the discernment that leads up to marriage is a lot quicker. and just as a man or a woman may be afraid to bear their heart to the other, lest they be found unworthy. I mean, y'all have, what, nine years before final profession or something? Eight. Eight years? What's that like wanting to be honest and open and to bear your soul to your superior, but at the same time not wanting to be too much and not wanting to get kicked out

and not wanting to be misunderstood and then kicked out? That must be a difficult thing, I would think. Yeah, yeah, that's a great question because, you know, there's a whole process, too, of discerning with the community before you even enter. So a lot of that discernment happens before you enter, you're coming to know the community or getting to know the vocation director and the vocation team. And a lot of those conversations happen. And the relationship is getting established. And just like you said, a man and a woman are discerning to marry each other. And there's a discernment on both.

parts on the part of the young woman who's discerning in the community. So there's still the two parts, right? So we get to know the young women before they enter and, you know, this life cannot be lived on a natural level. So you have to, you have to make a stupid question. Stupid question. Why can't it be lived on a natural level? Why? What's so difficult? I'm being a little facetion. I'm like, what's the problem? I mean, married life is in a bloody picnic. Maybe it would be okay to have your own little cell and to pray with a bunch of supportive sisters?

What's so difficult about it? Yeah. So, you know, we're living the vows of poverty and chast, and obedience. You're right, there is a natural way to embrace those. Sooner or later, even the natural ways are going to wear down. Okay. Right? To have your own cell, to have maybe only a few items.

you hold in common with other people, pretty soon that's going to get annoying. Then you talk about chastity. You know, there's plenty of people who live a life of chastity just for noble reasons to go out and do missionary work. But that's still just natural

unless it's being espoused to Jesus Christ that becomes the supernatural. Then when we talk about the hardest of them all, obedience. Oh, man. Right? If you were living that on a natural level, somebody asks you, you know,

You want to go be a mission in Australia? That would that be great. But what about mission somewhere else? So there's quite a lot of resistance that would come up. So yeah, the need to live this life. Abedience must be brutal because it would be one thing if the Lord was communicating to you through the host and you had 100% confidence that it was his will.

You're like, of course, anything at all. But you're dealing with another fallible, sinful human being who's been given this position over you that you have to be obedient to. And so there is, I mean, she might be wrong. Well, she actually may have got not all the information right. Yeah, yeah. And so I could imagine that being a really difficult thing

and yet you have to submit to that. Yeah, working through it, working through it. Yes, and I'll add one part to that because you're right, there's the human element of, you know, okay. But then there's the, the, what I said, the supernatural element, the, really the security we can find in obedience. And then I'll say, maybe the protection

that we can find in obedience, that we're under the umbrella of God's will, is a great and safe and secure place to be. The other thing about obedience that sometimes I don't know that people think about enough is obedience that's lived well is very freeing. But also, interestingly, it draws out of individuals things they themselves never even knew were there. Right. So, you know, you're kind of putzing around in your life and you're superior.

Send you somewhere, asks you to do something, invite you to go on pints with Aquinas. and out of that mini call or ask the grace is there. Maybe there's some grappling with the grace, but the grace is there and, whoa, what was that? That, not the imposition of obedience, but the drawing out of, wow, how did you do that, Lord? You asked, if you asked, bank it on the grace, and then all of a sudden he's drawing these things out of us

that we didn't even know we're there. So I think that part sometimes is forgotten in obedience. That's the freeing aspect. But it has to be the obedience of Christ. I'm going to ask a question. I don't think it'll be too personal. If it is, you can just tell me to stop being weird. And you also don't have to answer about yourself,

but those sisters in general. What's it like as you join the convent and you start to get older and you start to like bearing children actually becomes at some point like not possible. Yeah. How do nuns struggle with that? Because I presume it's not merely a, I believe I'm called the celibacy and I accept it one and done. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. It must be an ongoing thing. And I imagine as your body changes, there must be, surely that's something women wrestle with. Right, right. No, that's a, that's a beautiful question actually. because it's a beautiful gift the Lord has given to humanity to the woman,

beautiful gift. Yeah. And what it draws attention to is the need, just as they're in marriage of renewal and daily renewal, there's that same need in religious life to renew our dedication. to the Lord, renew our vows, and as our life, various aspects of our life, that renewal will be called upon in different ways, maybe in chastity. So what you're talking about is, yes, when a woman is at the age that, when a sister is at the natural age of not being able to have children, what is, how does she offer that back to the Lord? Right. So. I could just imagine all of the

accusations and all of the attacks of the enemy to make you resent the vocation, the mistake that you made, you thought it would be beautiful, you thought you would be holy, look at you, what a mistake you've made. And just so I can share something vulnerable from my end so you don't feel under attack, I remember shortly, not that you feel under attack, shortly after the birth of my first two children, I was just really struggling. And I didn't, I didn't love it. Yeah. I didn't, I love it now. My children are older. No one told me how, and so I would find it really difficult with the kids were young. And I remember sharing with other fellows like, this is buddy difficult. And no one around me agreed, which made me feel really lonely. Everyone said, yeah,

but what a blessing. And I went, okay, I know that objectively. And I had these temptations of, yeah, you missed your call. Like you were young, you were enthusiastic, you got married, but you really should have been a priest and now you've screwed everything up, that kind of temptation, which I had to reject in the name of Jesus. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes, that's a great, thank you for sharing that because I think it's true in every vocation, right, the renewal. I think about it sometimes too with, you know, some of us, I entered, I was 21 years old. And I didn't. And there's tons I didn't know.

There's even things I didn't have. I had a car that my parents gave me. I didn't have my own business. I didn't have a profession. though when I entered I entered with with women who had those things peak of their career own law firm all those things so so even in my group that I entered with we were all different backgrounds so it's interesting now that I'm working in formation I had a new insight just last year of um of that very renewal that I didn't I didn't have to

I mean, I gave up a lot, but there's, as you grow, as you kind of come even into your, what is your potential when I didn't know it at 21, and then maybe I come to a greater understanding of my own potentiality. And then is the invitation to lay it down again. Okay. Even after acquiring, we talk about it kind of as the, you know, the middle years is like the age of competency, right? Yeah.

And that is a time when I do believe that religious, that's the time when we say, are you willing again to say, yes, Lord, everything and anything? So I appreciate your sharing of that story because I do believe, I do believe every religious comes to those questions. and whether it's in poverty or a chassis or obedience or community life. But I think when we're living deeply, that's also the place where what does that mean

when there's the cross or the struggle or the difficulty? Probably you've got to know your wife and the Lord in a deeper way in that. And that's what we do. It is a deeper call to intimacy in those spots of surrender. I think the world, the flesh, well, the world and the devil, and the flesh gives into this, is this desire to live on the peripheries of our life. To not remain in the heart with the Lord attentive to him and to ourselves. And when we don't like ourselves, there's a way to get away from yourself.

You just distract yourself constantly. Just constantly don't be at home with yourself. And so I'm sure it's also possible to live a life in a vocation where you're not even aware of your heart. and then you've got these growing resentments or what have you. Yes. So how do we live? Does that resonate? Do you know what I mean by that?

And then so how do we live in the heart with the Lord and be attentive? Because if we're not attentive, then we're missing out on this relationship we're called to have with him constantly. Yes. Yes. Yes. That's so valid. And I think we've all been there, huh? We've all been living on the peripheries and depending on how long we do that.

And, you know, in his mercy, he called. us back. Sometimes that's a hard way, but the father told Catherine, you know, the father told Catherine of Sienna, he showers blessings upon us so that kind of get our attention. But then the hard word of the father in the dialogue is sometimes when, and not that all suffering is, you know, anyway, that's a whole other topic, but sometimes it's a suffering that comes upon us that draws us right back to the center, isn't it? Definitely. So I think that if we could be a, when we're attentive, you know, to our daily prayer, a real prayer. You know, in John's gospel, the Father seeks those who pray in spirit and in truth, right?

When we're in real prayer, what, it would sit ourselves down and at mass or adoration, rosary, Lexiote of, you know, with sacred scripture, out in a walk. When we really could ask, kind of, where am I? I guess that's the question the father asked, you know. As, where are you? Right, the question in the guard, where are, where are you? Allowing ourselves to hear that, where are you? Oh, yeah. Okay.

And often, I don't know, I find, because we're contemplative, apostolic, sometimes ours is the busyness, you know, the busyness of the apostolate that is, those are good things. But that could be the thing that drives us out of the deep place of our heart. So we might be in the mechanics of yes, daily prayer, I'm at laws, I'm at Vespers, I'm at Compline. But am I? You know, am I? Yeah. At those, am I really praying? I think also, you know, the role of community and friendship and community and our sisters who,

we still do need the companionship of our sisters. That's what community life is for. So sometimes it's not just the hard word of a sister of like, you okay, but really, are you okay? Like how are things going anyway? Those conversations that actually help us to reflect. Yeah, how am I doing? Thanks for asking. Yeah.

And sometimes it's one word because you're living with these women who are supportive and they care and they themselves are praying deeply and striving. And that's so encouraging. So I hadn't experienced the other day where, you know, when sisters came back from mission and she said, how's it going anyway as director of novices, how are things going? I said, good, I said it takes a lot of discernment.

And she just looked at me and she said, that could be exhausting. And you know that word went, boom. And I just said, thank you, thank you. And thanks so much for your prayers and support. But it helped me also to name, not necessarily that I was exhausted, but that that's the potential,

that when you're discerning things and walking with people, you can be more, and we as women do that, we can be more aware of what's going on with everybody under your care and that you're with. You could be more aware of how they're doing, right, than how you're doing. It sounded like she gave you permission to be exhausted.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was a great gift. Yeah. is a great blessing and she's great support. So what is your title or what is your role? Novis Yeah. So sometimes it's called novice mistress. Novice mistress. Sometimes we call it director of novices. So it's kind of like. So how many roughly women are under your care right now? Right. So in our novicia, that's the first four years. Yeah. So there's 52 sisters in the first four years of what you say initial formation.

That's a lot of people to get to know well. It's a lot of people. And I have an assistant, beautiful sister. And it's not like you're called to get to know them superficially. Right. To get To know 52 people superficially would be difficult enough. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So praying together and classes together.

And I mentioned that early, kind of the one-on-ones, we call them conferences. And really relying on the Holy Spirit because when you forget that is when the burden becomes too heavy. So are you looked at by them as a sort of spiritual mother? Clearly, yes. But I mean, is that primarily your role? Or are you kind of more there to deal with the detail? of, does that make sense? Is it a heart thing?

Is it a detail thing? Is it a both thing? Yeah, a little bit of both. Yeah, it's the heart and the encouragement. Practicalities of daily living in another house. Yes. What is some general themes that you find young women are wrestling with as they look forward to making final vows? Yes.

maybe the fear of being not pure enough of being what have you. Like what are those insecurities and doubts and fears that they are dealing with? Yeah. So I think I have to tell you firstly. I don't. I feel like this is a very negative podcast. I have a very melancholic temperament. If my wife was here, she'd be talking about how y'all party and celebrate.

And I'm just like, tell me about how everybody's struggling. No, no. No. And it's, you know, these are beautiful, beautiful lives of beautiful, young women, generous, generous, joyful, lots of fun. But I do have to tell you this before I go into that. You know, the sisters are praying for us and this podcast. But I've got to tell you this. Did I send them a letter? I sent them letters to like a couple of hundred convents. Yes, we have it on a prayer board. We've been praying for you. Thank you. Yes, for sure.

It means the world to me. I'll be serving you drinks in heaven. Okay, so you've got to hear this because it was beautiful. So I wanted to ask them for prayers and I told I said the sisters well sisters I need to ask for your prayers because um in a couple weeks I'm going to be on pints with Aquinas I hardly got it out of my oh and they just come on yes they just applauded that's so sweet and they were so excited and they told me how um they watched every episode I'm so sorry before they entered every episode every episode before they entered And one of the sisters said to me, she said, I used to financially support points with Aquinas. The only reason I stopped is because I entered the convent.

It's a great reason. So, yes, very supportive. Tell them thank you for their prayers. That really means the actual world to me, really, really does. I will. I will. And they'd love for you to come to the mother. I would be so honored. Then I thought it would be fun is I have been thinking in preparation that I'd love to interview you. I'd be, sure.

Wouldn't that be fun? I don't know. Or have. I'll let you know. I have the sisters. Maybe it could be one of those they could ask any question they want. Come on. Wouldn't that be great? That'd be an honor. Okay. Yeah, my good, my good wife comes in today. You'll get to see her. Good. Good. Oh, I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful. But, um, so yeah, maybe we could come with the kids. What an honor that would be. Yeah. Is there a sister? I'm going to put you on the spot. Kiara. I met a Dominican sister. And it was a sister, Kiara Luce, right? I don't know if three. She's a Nashville Dominican sister or what?

I'm just calling her out right now. Is she one of yours? No, not Chiara Luce, but we do have sister Kiara. All right. So I met this Dominican sister. The name is Kiara Lucha. And I said, my daughter's name is Kiara Lucia. Beautiful.

And I call her Kilo. And she just melted in front of me. And I know that's the name the father uses now. I didn't want to call her that. That's great. Yeah, beautiful. That's great. All right, so back to the negative stuff.

What is, what are the sisters, I think why this is important is I know, I know that you, that there will be women who will apply to you because of this podcast because God is good and wants to invite them. Thank God for that. Isn't that beautiful? That'll happen. So I just, I want to speak to those beautiful tender fears these women have as they, yeah. Sort of what you shared earlier was so beautiful. Like, who do you think you are? They'd be really more humble if you were just acknowledged this was a mistake and kind of go home with your tail between your legs and the fact that you that sounds kind of there's a logic to that right what's is what makes it so dangerous but what what are some general themes you find that women

struggle with in the early years yes yeah so i think um so i'm going to say also because i think it's not just the ones who enter i think it's young people generally so no matter where their vocation i'm going to speak to all of those dear young people and it's yeah it's a couple of things it's um more than a couple. I think it would be, is God really that good? It's the goodness of God. Okay, but there's another piece to this.

Is God really that good that he sees me? Is he really that good that he placed desires on my heart? He placed those good desires on my heart and that he fulfills them? Really? Well, firstly, is that desire? are good that he placed and that it's from him? What? Okay, second part might be harder. I'm good. He's made me good. And the answer is yes. He has made you good. Those are the questions. It's around

goodness. A few years back, I realized that. I thought, this is what young people are grappling with. Is God good? Yes. Are you good? Yes. And we're not the, you know, the, you know, the Protestant idea of, you know, we've all learned it in church history that dung heap with snow covering. Right. That's not the Catholic belief. It's the opposite. Yeah. With dunk-covered snow hills.

That's right. So it's, no, the goodness of God and were made in his image and likeness. The other piece to this is, you know, because we teach, our sisters teach 20,000 young people around the globe. It's so awesome. And, you know, if you think about it, if we said to a young person, nah, you know what, I don't really think you can do it. Don't even, I'm not sure you should even get started while I try. You really can't.

That's not very good. It's, you have been, well, you've made, as we hear from our Holy Fathers, you're made for greatness. And if he's calling you to greatness, he's going to give you the grace for it. So I think the sticky point is it's not us. It's the Holy Spirit, right, whose power now at work in us can do immeasurably more than we ask or imagine. That's the place to be. Our own capacities, our own story, our own history, our own sinfulness, call it for what it is.

No, we can't do it. Nobody can. but do I believe that when Jesus Christ died on the cross, we hear that and kind of throw that away that he was thinking about me, but no, literally, literally, in the agony in the garden, not my will, Father, but yours be done. He was thinking of you and me. And then the walk to the saving tree and the falling three times.

Isn't that encouraging? The son of God fell three times on the way. He didn't just say, you know, I've got this. I got it. I'm going to walk straight up confidently, no falling. It's going to be perfect. Watch this, everybody. And everything he does, right, he did it all to teach us.

So he fell to say, okay, you will too. And with my grace, get up, get back up. The Holy Father, when he was speaking to the people of Lebanon, I don't know why this screamed out at me. He said, Lebanon stand up. That was piercing to hear that. Lebanon, stand up. And I think it's like, that's the call to each of us.

Yeah. After we've fallen, not on our own, but by the grace of God and all the helps, sacramental helps he gives us. All right, I want to tell you about pray ah. But before I do, you might not realize that 43% of children raised Catholic leave the faith when they move out. And one of the biggest reasons is painfully clear, families forget to pray. Here's the truth. We've lost touch with centuries of devotion, like the slow and silent breath of traditional prayer.

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And there was a line in there, which I'm just now remembering, so I may not get it right. But it was something to the effect of what father would be happy if his child was perpetually saying something like, I can't do anything right, I'm a failure. You'd be like, child, look at me, stand up, shoulders back. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Go after it.

Yes. Yeah. Yes. I'm also reminded of St. John Paul II's words at World Youth Day in Canada, you are not the sum of your weaknesses and failures. Yes. You are the sum of the father's love for you and your real capacity to be like his son. Amen. Amen.

Yeah, I remember when he, I wasn't present, but I remember the sisters coming back and quoting that. Oh, yeah. And when he was in St. Louis, this is one that I remember all the time. Did you go to World Youth Day, St. Louis? No, it was. Oh, not St. Louis. Denver is what I meant. Denver.

I did. I did, actually. Yes. But the one in St. Louis, I was a young sister, we went as the novitiate, and he said, oh, he said, Christ calls you, the church loves you. No, sorry, Christ calls you. The church needs you. The Holy Father loves you, and he expects great things of you. Come on. That's what you want a Father to do. That's right. Yeah. That's right. And that is what our Heavenly Father does.

Yeah. He does for that. He does that for us. Oh, so beautiful. I love John Paul the second. Now, I might have missed your question. I forget what it was. Okay, great. I didn't even matter. You were sent to Australia.

I sure was. And you were there for how long? I was there for 10.5, glorious years. Thank you for loving my people. Oh, I'm so, it was a blessing. You in Sydney? I was in Sydney and then in Melbourne. So actually, I became a citizen right at the end.

So your people are my people. That's really lovely. Yes. Yeah, I was there. a couple of times I've had the joy of going. And it was really moving. I went a couple of years ago, and I was born in Sydney. So just to get to go back to the place of my birth,

to be able to proclaim Jesus Christ and to invite people to repent and encounter his love, was really quite overwhelming. And I was invited to the tomb of Cardinal Pell, who we have up here, who was a lion of a man, maligned by the enemies of the church, but ultimately victorious through his humility and fidelity. And I just got to kneel in front of his tomb. And it shocked me how moved I was by that, begged his prayers and continued to.

I bet so, yes. So what was that like? And did you meet Cardinal Pell? Oh, yeah, oh yeah. While you were there? Yes, yes, yes, through the years. And I think I'm blessed to say that we are friends. Yeah.

He's a friend of our community. and he is a, he's just a dear friend. And I, too, ask his prayers. He was the one along with, at the time it was Bishop Anthony Fisher. Now he's Archbishop Anthony Fisher. God love him, yep. And Cardinal Pell is the one who invited us to come to work for World Youth Day, Sydney. Now, were the sisters there already?

No, so it was 2007. Yep. And he invited us to come to Sydney to work for World Youth Day. So three of us were sent, like I said earlier, the obedience that sends you. And that came out of... It wasn't a bad place to be sent. It was a little bit... You get a little nervous, you know, going the whole way across the ocean.

Yeah. And very, that's so far away. So far. And you feel it. Oh, yeah. Psychologically, even once in a while. Like, if I had to get back, that would take a while. But it was a great grace.

So for the first year I was there, we were working for World Youth Day. In Sydney? In Sydney. What does that mean working for World Youth Day? So what it is is it's all the planning for World Youth Day. So there's different kind of subcommittee, so to speak. And I was on the Youth Festival team, which was a blast, because it's, you know, all of the musicians who around the world say I'd love to perform for World Youth Day, the festival beforehand and around those days. Or we have a cultural dance.

We'd like to do that. And my job was to vet those. That was a blast. So I would just sit at my computer and listen to these, you know, young people sending in, you know, their guitar piece, or this is our youth group, or then the communities and movements that would animate an adoration site. So that was my role.

That was a lot of fun. And just for those who are at home who may not know what World Youth Day is. Yeah, thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Real quick, it's a gathering of young people that the Holy Father invites to join him around the world. and I went to Rome. That was my moment of conversion.

2000. I went and agnostic, came back, an annoyingly happy Christian. And that was the largest gathering of human beings in European history. Prior to that, they had one in the Philippines, which was the largest gathering of human beings in the world ever. Oh, that's right. And then I didn't get to go to Sydney. Okay.

How many people showed up there? I think we had, and it was a smaller one, but I think we had about, maybe it was 700, 50,000. A lot of people. That's a lot of people. That'll do. That'll do.

That's fine. That's pretty good. Yeah. It's pretty good. So was it after World Youth Day that the sisters were invited to have a convent there? Yeah. And it was from Pell? Yes.

Yeah. So midway through our time there, the first year, Cardinal Pell invited us. And he had kind of three things in mind. He wanted us to be involved in Catholic education. That's what we do. As Dominican sister of St. Cecilia, so that was a good fit. He wanted us to be involved in university of chaplaincy. He has a great love for the university chaplaincies and for young people.

And he wanted us to, as he would say, like, see what you could do for renewal of religious life. And it's just... See what you can do. Yeah, see what you can do. Give a shot. Yes, just living our life. He wanted religious life to be renewed just by the living of it. And so then what, it was a big move for our community to take, to discern this mission.

We hadn't been, the only other place outside of the U.S., we were in Rome studying before that, but then 2007 went to World Youth Day. And then after that, it kind of, there were a few missions that we went to. We went to Scotland and Ireland, Vancouver, Netherlands, and then we have got a house outside of Rome, Roshiano. So then in that year, not really a whole year of discernment, but he invited us and then mother and her counsel came to just see, is this going to be a fit? Can we do this? And that was a beautiful time of discernment, beautiful for them to see that the young people were open to our presence. You know, it's not, you know, sometimes you can go forging ahead if people don't want you there, but it's not always the wisest way. So they, mother and the, mother and the, the council wanted to discern is this a fit, but also do the people want us, you know? Yeah. So the Cardinal was inviting us, but do the people. And we had many wonderful encounters with the young people that demonstrated that there would be an openness.

So how many houses are in Australia? Two. Melbourne and Sydney? Melbourne and Sydney. Okay. Yes. Sisters are doing great work there. Do you have an experience or did you notice a difference between how?

how Australians receive you, whether Catholic or not, and how Americans receive you. Right. So, you know, we're in the, our community is in the south. And there's still great gospel culture. So the God bless you here and there. Yep. That happens here in the south. It's beautiful.

And even, you know, you drive down the road and you see a scripture passage, you know, on somebody's truck. that was different in Australia. It's a secular country, huh? Yeah, yes. I remember being shocked when I came here and seeing all that stuff. I bet. So that was an adjustment, I think, for us to encounter the secular culture. Where we live in Sydney is the western suburbs.

There's a lot of, it's very, very diverse. School where we were teaching, there are 70 different cultures represented. So that area is the highest. population of Turkish Muslims. So we would drive to school and everybody we'd see, ourselves included were veiled, but we were veiled for other reasons.

So that was different. And just trying to get used to, I think all of those cultures, learning all those cultures, but also trying to help the young people who are living between two cultures, right, the culture of their home country that their parents have grown up in.

and came, you know, traveled to Australia. And now these young people who are trying to navigate the Australian culture and their home culture. And trying to help them hold on to their faith that often is the faith of their parents. But now how do I live that here in Sydney or Melbourne? Selfishly, can you tell me a story about Cardinal Pell? Oh, wonderful. Yes. So he, you know, a story I think about his wisdom.

he loved to be he loved to be with the young people so there'd be these large events and we'd invite him the young people would invite him I wouldn't necessarily but the young people would invite him and he would come allow questions and answers and he'd just sit and

take them all they knew him as a father because they could feel his care for them his interest in them So question I think about is one time when zealous young person got up and said, you know, very direct, why aren't you, you know, doing this or doing that with the Catholic schools

and with all these different things that were on this young person's agenda? And it was direct and it was abrasive. Abrasive. And the Cardinal just received it. And he, I won't try to imitate his accent, though. I could still hear it. And he said, the church is a very large ship. Yeah.

That sometimes needs time to turn. Right. And that was such a wise saying, especially for the young who want to do things quickly. Yeah. Yeah, you'd burn out so quickly if you thought we needed to change everything right now or else there's no point doing the things that we're doing. Yes. Yes.

Yes. The other piece of wisdom. So, you know, World Youth Day happened. Before World Youth Day happened, there wasn't a lot happening in Sydney for young people. There was this really strong and dynamic group of young people doing a whole lot of things. And then there was World Youth Day. And then afterward, there was the surge of activity and all kinds of things.

Sure, yeah. And one time when we were talking with the Cardinal, I asked him about, about it and he said, you know, Bishop Anthony and I decided, we would not do any start up, any initiatives after World Youth Day ourselves. It's got to come from the young people. So when the young people would come to him, they'd discern it. And I think that was the success, because then the young people came up with an initiative and it took off, whole events that were just taken off,

and evangelization of that great nation. But Sydney especially, and then it was spreading out, spreading out. Now we've got the Australian Catholic Youth Festival that happens. And that's very successful. So he was so wise. And, you know, the different times when he'd come one time, sisters were coming to visit.

So some young women from Australia entered our community and then they'd come back for their home visit. and we'd call and say the sisters are, you know, the young Aisies are home for their home visit. Would you like to get together? Oh, yeah. And he'd say, you know, come over and we got some Manus, some, you know, Lebanese bread, coffee. God bless the Lebanese. Can we just say that?

Amen, that's second time today. They're holding the church together in Sydney. Yes. Good men, really beautiful women. And they're just on fire. I am so grateful for the Lebanese Catholics in Australia. Yes. They are beautiful.

Yeah. Really beautiful. My favorite story about Pell, I don't know that many, I suppose, except for what's public, but I was at the NAC in Rome and I was talking to one of the seminarians. And he said, yeah, when Cardinal Pell would come, you know, when he'd lead adoration, he'd always assign a seminarian to sit next to him. And his job was to poke him when he inevitably would fall to sleep and start snoring. Oh, yeah.

That's a pretty cool role. That's great. I'm pretty bad about it. So sorry. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, one time I remember asking him, it was one of those, you mentioned, you know, the battles that he would be involved in. And there was one of those that was kind of happening in the media.

He was at an event and we just had a chance to talk. And I asked him, you know, does this, does this, do you ever get on, you know, does this ever ruffle you? You know, is it ever scary? Like, you know, you see it. You refer to him as a lion of the church. was true the so strong and and tall and footy player and um i i wanted to just ask him like what's in there what's your heart and he just said of course of course i in a sense like of course i get scared you know no wonder he took be not afraid right no wonder he took that and lived it so well

and it was such a that to me was like oh good okay i he you know you know you know you You know, that idea of you put somebody at a pedestal, the only way they can go down, the only place they can go is down. But I was trying to get, as we were talking and getting to know each other, asking that question, you know, does it, you look like it doesn't bother you, but does it bother you? And we know that now, you know, reading as prison journals that are so... Yeah, I'd highly recommend people check them out.

Yes, yes, beautiful. And you get to see... The thing that impressed me most about his prison journals is that he never attempted to make himself out to be anything like a martyr. Wasn't that amazing? I would have. I totally would have played into that. I'm not too good to not play into that.

I don't know. Maybe it would give me the grace. But he was just, I think it was 60 minutes who interviewed him about it. He was exonerated by the High Court of Australia for crimes he had never committed and was punished for us just for those at home sent to prison for over, what was a 14 months. He was in solitary confinement for a good chunk of that time. And he said, well, I just saw it as a long retreat. I'd wake up and say me prayers.

And I'm like, he's talking about it. Like there was no magnifying evil that was committed against him. So that was, they're really beautiful. Ignatius Press. So they're very worth getting. Bible across America, an inspiring initiative from the St. Paul Center represents an unprecedented opportunity to unite the entire church through the world's largest Bible study.

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He was a great honor of receiving him. And he celebrated Mass for us. And that was after he was in prison, actually. Wow. And they say exonerated. And that was a tremendous grace. and to see him, you know, just, you know, walking, walking up our center aisle and celebrating Mass for us. And then we had a chance to have a, you know, question, answer time with him. And he was just so present and just so, such a beautiful man of the church, prince of the church. Can I give you a devil's advocate sort of accusation about religious sisters in general?

This isn't what I think, but I'm going to be, I'm going to state it kind of aggressively. What is the point of female religious sisters anyway? Like, why? Like priests, fair enough. You know, we need them to celebrate Mass. But why don't you go do something useful? Get married, have kids, educate the kids. What's the point?

Why is it important to have female religious? Great. I think it's an important question. So I'm glad you've asked it in. And an honest one, and I think if people are discerning, they need to ask it. The church needs to ask it. But the church has already answered the question. That's good to know.

that religious are part of the life and holiness of the church, is what the Sechabatic Council reminded us. But also, you know, Paul the 6th before we were even born, in 1971, he wrote this exhortation. It's beautiful to read the gospel witness, Evangelica Testificatio. He asks that question. He knew that church needed to, hear the answer. And he says without a concrete witness of religious, there is a danger that the

charity that animates the church will grow cold, that the salvific paradox of the gospel will lose its blunt. And he also says that the salt of the gospel will lose its savor. especially in a world undergoing secularization. I think that's the answer, right? Charity will grow cold. Now, the world needs to see religious, right? But that's not the end. There is a mystical influence of our consecration on the world.

So our cloistered sisters, you know, they're pretty much holding all the whole world up in prayer. and the graces that come from their prayer are just radiating through this world in ways that we'll only know in heaven. So the church and the world do need to see the witness, right? Need to see the habit, need to see. And then we need to see all of those, the acts, all of those acts that religious do of serving the poor, of teaching, of assisting the dying,

evangelization, all of those works. They need to be done, and they're being done by many faithful people and by religious. But it's the other part, it's the being before the doing. That's the important part. It's the life of prayer that is really fueling the works. Anybody could do, as we said earlier, If you're living on a natural level, anybody can serve the poor.

You could be an atheist and serve the poor. It's still noble. It's not the fullness, and it's not what religious are called to. But it is our consecration and our living as close as we can to the life that Jesus lived and that he chose for his mother, Mary, that is needed in the church. So there's been questions, you know, there's still questions about. are religious needed. Yes, for the life and holiness of the church.

And only when religious women and men, so religious men as well, but only when religious men and women are living healthy and holy lives, will the church herself be healthy and holy because we're modeling the church, right? Little kids look at us and say, look at them churches. You know, they don't know who we are. They see churches or angels

or what are, you know, that's their first instinct. Look at them churches here in Nashville. We hear that. But also, you know, I heard a beautiful testimony of recently from a Knight of Columbus here in Nashville. He's a convert to the faith. He didn't convert because of first Jesus. He converted by watching the people in the church adore the Lord. So this man saw the faith of the people first.

And what are they looking at? They're looking at Jesus. And then he's this back and forth, wait a second. And that's what converted him. So our visible witness of the church is important. We are called the Brides of Christ. The church is the bride of Christ. We're the visible representation of the bride, the church.

I'm going to try an analogy that may fall flat. Okay, so I'm. It's half awake in my mind, this thought. Asking why do we need religious is something like asking why do we need beautiful architecture? Like, let's just make it functional. It's like, well, because when you have beautiful things, people act beautifully. And when you treat, when everything around them says to them you're a cog in the machine, you're a rat, then we shouldn't be surprised when they act like that. Yeah. I don't know if that's a good analogy or not, but there's something about just, it's like a functional question that doesn't understand. the church. It's sort of like when people around me, as I was discerning, the priest would say, just be a social worker. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So you don't, we don't know what a priest is then if we think.

Yeah, that's right. The social worker. It's just a priest who can have sex or something, have children. Right, right. Have you think about that same question, right? Why this waste? Why that waste? Yeah. Right. Why the waste? Horrific. The alabaster jar pour over our Lord on a natural level. Why are you wasting that? and a life that can look like a waste. Yeah. I remember the priest once saying to me, and I'm sure you've heard something similar,

you know, when you're discerning celibate vocation, say to the priesthood or to become a nun and marriage, you have this false idea, right? Let's say you're a fella. You're like, all right, I can be celibate or I can have any of these women. And it's like, well, first of all, a lot of them wouldn't want you.

Second of all, really, the discernment is not between priesthood and all these women. And it's between the priesthood and one woman. Yes. And, you know, it's difficult. One of the opening chapters in the imitation of Christ talks about this idea that we're all tempted to want to be what we're not. So the celibate man says if only I were a priest and the priest says if only I were married and the, if I were a hermit. And the hermit says if I were a monk.

And it can be tempting to idealize what marriage, what I imagine if I was married. You're never thinking of the actual stresses and chaos and craziness. Yes. And then like speak to anyone who's been married for 20 minutes or longer and say, so you're not lonely anymore. You never experience any kind of internal angst or, you know, anyone who's honest will say, of course I get lonely. So this idea, yeah.

What do you think about that? Just the grass is always greener, I guess is what I'm saying. I was thinking about that grass is always greener. I think that's why it's so beautiful when all of oakeners. in the church are working together because we encourage each other so beautifully. Totally, yeah. Yeah.

Yes. So, no, I think you're spot on because we can think of it. We can idealize every vocation, right, and think, yeah, that married couple. We used to, you know, there used to be a beautiful family who would come and visit. And when we were young sisters, we say,

you know, it's a little bit of a vocation crisis when that family visited because it was like, wow, look at that beautiful couple. Look at all those beautiful children. Yeah, come to my house. You'll be reaffirmed in your vocation. Oh, yeah, so yeah, the grass is greener. Yeah.

And I think what you're pointing to, too, is there are desires of the human heart that we need to be aware that only God can feel. Only God can feel. And also this, you know, sometimes we walk around wondering why I'm kind of anxious and yearning. It's like, that's always. is going to be part of the being human. Aquinas, as you know, talks about this distinction between felicity and beatitude and that beatitude or perfect happiness is actually not possible in this life. When you hear that, I don't know about you, but I'm like, oh, thank you. Goodness. Yes. I thought there was something wrong with me. Right. And there is. But that's really kind of

refreshing. Why did you think you were supposed to be happy? That's actually impossible here. Yeah, I think when we set ourselves up, you know, when we think it's, I think we can. I think, and set ourselves up to say, to forget that there's some suffering, you know, and so it surprises us. Yeah. Suffering generally I'm okay with. Yes. Yeah. But like specific health issues or like intellectual issues or things like that. I don't like that. I hate that. That can't be God's will. Yeah. Leave it out there. Suffering generally. I like that.

That's why I think it's funny when you read the lives of the saints, when they were struggling with ailments that they didn't yet have modern names for, it just feels whole. Yeah. But if someone has like bronchitis or like kidney stones or something, I don't know. It just feels like, oh, that can't be God's will. If it was general, then I'd, yeah. Yes. And often when those things come, what's the first thing? It's blame. I must have done something wrong. What did I do something wrong now. I've got this problem. You know, I think going back to the, what do people need to hear is you are about our goodness, but also how quickly we go to the place of blame. I must have. or being tripped up by God. No, he's not, he's a benevolent father. He's not just tripping us up and looking for ways to make us suffer. What's the state of religious life, female religious life today like, and how does that differ from, say, 30, 50 years ago?

And where do you see it going from here? Are there signs of great hope? Yeah, there are signs of great hope. beautiful, beautiful communities of sisters who have the, who have, we're all friends, which is wonderful in the church, you know, these beautiful communities. And we work together, pray together, go on retreats together, collaborate in all kinds of ways. When one community has an expertise in an area, we, you know, call upon each other. It's beautiful sisterhood among the sisters. That's a tremendous gift, tremendous gift, tremendous gift in the church.

And a lot of these communities that they're growing and they are, they're beautiful, they're beautiful sisters, generous and joyful. Which orders do you have in mind? So I have all, you know, there's a, I'm sure there's too many in there, but you don't want to leave any out. I know, I don't want to leave anybody out. Just a few, they can't have mine. I know I don't want to leave anybody else.

So, you know, Sister of Life, we mentioned Sister of Life. Mercy Sisters, we've been friends a long time. you know, Salt Sisters, measures of charity. We can keep going, a little sister to the poor. Yeah. Lots of others. Well, I don't mean to ask you another question and derail you,

but this has to do with the state of female religious. The orders that are growing are presumably being faithful to the Lord and the church in a way that, not necessarily, but I would presume that's the case, in a way that some orders aren't. And so the orders that are thriving. what are they doing? Because I would put a million dollars that it's not the orders who are like, get rid of the habit

and catch your hair really short and tell people to call your Anne, not sister Anne. I get a feeling they don't exist anymore. And I'm not making fun of them. I think it's quite sad. Yeah. But I presume the ones who demand a great deal of you.

Like how many hours do you all have to pray a day? In public worship and... Count of them. So we... I think, you know, we have... Well, the main... hours, you know, the lods, that's morning prayer, vespers, so evening prayer, compland, night prayer. Those are the, well, the lods and vespers are called the hinge

hours, you know, the main hours in the divine office. Then we have our time for Eucharistic adoration, afternoon, a morning meditation, a half of an hour, spiritual reading in the evening. It's like five hours a day, ten hours? How many? No, it will probably, no one be 10 hours. Gosh. I mean, we should be praying at all times. Yeah, I'm talking about specific prayers, yeah. Yeah, so probably what would that end up being?

A lot. Two, three, four, four, four or five, maybe four hours. And Holy Mass. Yes, yes, Holy Mass. Right. So my point is just that I'm sure it's those orders that are expecting greatness from the women. Yes.

Flourishing. Yeah, that would be a given. That would be a given. That the, because it's the fidelity to what does the church ask and what does canon law ask. So daily mass, when at all possible. I mean, if we've got some missionaries who are out in the fields and the potential of not being able to go to mass is real, you know. But Canada law asking for daily mass, recitation of divine office, canonical retreat once a year, right?

So those are the things in daily reading of sacred scripture. That would be, that's super typical of every religious community right now that's thriving. Some of the communities, as you mentioned, that maybe are their members are older and those communities might not be thriving. I do kind of want to give a compassionate kind of shout out because for some of those sisters, that itself has been a martyrdom to let go of the habit. It's not uncommon for us to meet with sisters

of various communities, and to hear on the side, I really miss. not everybody and we know there's a lot of sisters chose tons of sisters chose not to wear the habit but there are some who have lived a long silent martyrdom still faithful and and they are still drawing down tremendous graces and yes yeah so i did want to just kind of know that that's nice yeah look are you tired of sending your money every month to a phone company that doesn't share your values I want to tell you about our sponsor, Charity Mobile. They're different.

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I see a kind of similarity. It's almost like the same thing, the feminism, I think. And I'm used, I know that term can be tried to be made positive. I think most of the time it's completely poisoned. But it seems like it was a feminism that led these women to throw off. It's almost like there's. submission to the church and then you see what happens. There's like something similar, like that regret that I hear in the voice of that nun who's like, it broke her heart that we did this or that they told us to do this, something similar to the women who like threw off the yokes of yoke of marriage and now they're 45 and they could have been married, but they chose not to to pursue a career and now the deep regret when they see the young family. Right, right.

Yeah, I think that as we were saying, I think that every, one of us have not just one, but several crisis moments in our life. And they could be big, they could be little, who knows, they are many, many ways. But those are actually invitations of grace because they are moments maybe when the Lord is breaking in on our life and the invitation to go deeper. I often find that. when there's a time in our lives when, whatever age it is, but when something we just puts it around in our day and we're like, I don't know, what should I wonder,

you know, my prayer's been kind of like not so great for the last week or month. But when you kind of stop and say, what's the solution? It's often go deeper. It's the invitation is to go deeper, right? So I think, you know, the other thing that is happening in this culture right now that we're big temptation is of acetya. We don't think about, we think about acetya sloth. So we think about that, that cuddly animal that's traipsed over some, can I just tell a funny story about this?

At World Youth Day in Rio. Okay? We had a chance to take students. That was awesome. We did some work in Lima first. That was beautiful. We were helping to build stairs in one of the shanty towns of Lima and doing some like dental work with some students.

And it was profound experience with our young people, high schoolers and university students. So we did that first. Then we went to Rio and we're going on that, I don't know if it's finicular or something, up that train track that goes to Christ the Redeemer. You've got to take these little cars up a train track. The train track stops in its tracks and we're like, what's the problem?

There's a sloth over the tracks that we had to wait. Living his best life. Living his best life. I was uninterested if it was coming his way. Exactly. So when we think of a cedia, you know, the other word is sloth and we think of slowness. Yeah. That's not it.

It's just sadness at the sadness at good. Yeah. But I think that what we, if we're trying to be faithful, which we are, and we're zealous people, you know how it's going to sting us? We're going to push ourselves so hard beyond our capacity for the kingdom. And that's where we get stung. We burn ourselves out. And so all of, I think that's just something that in our day right now we have to be aware of. We're zealous people.

We desire the coming of the kingdom of God. We want to preach the gospel. But I think that we also, we need the wisdom of God. How do we do that? How do we recognize that we're fragile human beings? We have limits. We have limitations. He's not limited, but we are.

So we have to kind of account to this physicality of life, you know. But I think that we have to be limited. that I think that's important for us to keep our eye on that as we're striving to live faithfully. I think it's we as religious, we're not immune from it. So our dear sisters, all the ones that we're referring to, who are so zealous and eager and desiring to preach the gospel, to serve the poor, we often have to keep our eye on that, the balance of life, you know, how to be generous but smart. that's a hard it's hard it's a hard balance

Pascal's line of all of man's ills can be traced back to the fact that he does not know how to sit alone in a dark room silently adoration's a nice place to us so if you want to figure out how to press you are there's a litmus test just sit down in a dark room and see how long you can stand yourself for yeah that's a difficult thing if you think of that what's that beautiful phrase t s elliot the still point in the turning world I think it's important that we get there because I don't know what people's swirl is the turning world that's prayer isn't it

that's deep prayer the still point in the turning world where you meet God who's dwelling chooses to dwell within us so the chaos of whatever's going on and there's some chaos

out there. So the times of adoration, the chaos could be within, right? Adoration, so the still point there. And then even, you know, maybe you're on a bus or on a airplane or busy streets of New York, you could still walk with that skill point. To choose to sit within your own poverty.

Yeah. You know, how many times do we, maybe not yourself, but people, are just scrolling, scrolling, scrolling, scrolling. And to put it away feels like a poverty, it feels like a death. Yeah. And we don't even ask ourselves why that does feel like a death. That seems quite dramatic.

Surely it's not that. I could definitely stick without it if I wanted to. And then you put it away and you go, oh, yeah, there's that being with the Lord. Yeah, I think yes. I think you're spot on. I think we're thinking about really what that is is silence. A need for silence. The need for silence.

and how silence can be scary. It can be confronting. Okay, firstly it's necessary. We all need it because even, like I just mentioned, that fragility, even the fragility of our own brains, I mean, the most intelligent person, their brain needs a little bit of a rest. The most energized person needs some quiet.

And so silence, you know, the way that Edith Stein talks about it is that it has the capacity to bring us back, our fragmentation, or the fragmented world, it brings us back together. The silence, you probably feel that sometimes. When we're silent and we can, our fragmented world becomes just one and a lot more simple. What also happens in silence, though,

is what I really think and what I really feel, what I really remember, what I really want, what I really need, what I really desire comes to the surface. What that is then can be confronting. So no wonder we try to numb it and remove it and push it away. But we're just, you can't do that. Even with obnoxious modern music that has to assault our ears everywhere we go,

I would rather someone smoke marijuana next to me than listen to some of the crap they play in cafes. And I actually tip my Uber drivers a lot more if they don't play. music. I'm just so tired of stupid music, always polluting the air in which I live. It's so demoralizing. It's pet peeve. What's your opinion of young men or women consecrating themselves apart from the religious life? Maybe you can tell me what I mean. I'm thinking of people like Dr. Janet Smith, who took a vow of chastity. I don't know what else she took, if it's obedience to the bishop or not, but what's your opinion of that?

It's not a vocation, is it, or is it a vocation? But it's... Yeah, so there's different ways of consecration in the church. Okay. When Pope John Paul II wrote Vita Consecreted Life, it came out of the Synod on Religious, Synod for Consecrated Life in 1994. And then he kind of outlines ways people can be consecrated, so I'm not sure exactly what...

Smith says, but it needs to be in the church, recognized by the church. I think prudent move is certainly under the guidance of an authority of the church, a legitimate authority in the church, so the bishop or religious community or somehow. Yeah, because I'm thinking of like a 30 or 40-year-old woman who is still single and maybe is tired of the tension of like, am I going to get married? am I not going to get married? Am I too old for this religious order to take me? Do I even feel called to religious life? That tension of, well, and I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I'm just saying I could see this desire to say, well, why don't I just consecrate myself in virginity so I can sort of be shut that door? Or would you recommend people not do that and just live in that tension of

the fact that they may never get married even though they wish to or that a religious order may not accept them, even though they'd settle for that or might choose that. Yeah. I think it's so individual. They'd have to discern it. Yeah. They couldn't just out of a tired of, tired of X, Y, and Z. I'm going to consecrate myself.

I think it'd have to be a, it'd have to be the prompting the Holy Spirit. It'd have to be a call from the Lord. A turning toward, as opposed to a turning away from, right? Yes, yes, that's a good way to say it. Yes. And the call, a call from the Lord, you know, to, that. there is a reason that they're doing this and there's a reason that there's something in the church the Lord is desiring for them and calling them to do.

And oftentimes it is at the service of the church or service of others. That's another thing I think that's important to remember about vocation. You know, my vocation is not just my vocation. My vocation is in the heart of the church. So it's, in a certain sense, it's putting my vocation at the service of the church, the service of my religious community.

And that's kind of exciting because in the mystical body of Christ, the church, it's exciting, but it's also kind of, well, very dignifying, if you think about it, that the Lord,

you know, he loves secondary cars, He loves to use people and places and things to work through. He could just go zep, but he doesn't. He uses all these secondary causes. But isn't it phenomenal to think that your yes to grace, like my yes to grace and yes to my vocation, you yes to your vocation? Other people's yes in a certain sense depends upon our yes. It can open the way for their yes.

That's a heavy responsibility. But it's how dignified it is. So if you think about this group of people that you're talking about, that is a very, very real struggle when you're saying about, you know, some people in their 30s and 40s, they're yes in whatever way they're making it

is opening the way, even if they don't really realize it, they're just a faithful parishioner. That's still heroic. And other people are looking at them, Oh, yeah, they're a reliable person. I can turn to that person. This young person gets in a bind.

Oh, yeah, I've seen that. I've seen that person at church. I think I might ask them. That's not a small thing. And they're yes to grace, even yes to this time of suffering, maybe, or this season, that there is still a question mark. To trust the Lord is in it. He's still faithful. He's still at work in their lives.

And there's some yeses all around them. that are waiting to be answered too because of their yes. Young women watching this show, maybe they want to apply to the Nashville Dominican sisters. How do they do that? What's that process look like for them? Great, great. So we have several retreats at our motherhouse.

Usually if somebody is interested, the first thing, and I hear this all the time from our sisters, their first thing they do is look at our website, Nashville, dominican.org, and they start to, it's such a, a good way to get a lot of your questions answered. What you're trying to do is saying, is this resonating with what's in my heart

and what I've been just desiring in my life? So you're kind of looking at the website and you're paying attention to what's going on in your own heart. And then there's opportunities on there to contact our vocation director. And then there's opportunities for retreats. There's different kinds of retreats. One retreat that's really just a retreat for young women.

It's not a discernment retreat, but it's an opportunity to come pray with the sisters. It's called Jesu Keri Tos. We have that once a year. And then we have the, if you get a little bit more serious about discernment, you actually want to look more closely. There's come and see. And then as our vocation team discerns with young women, there's a vocation retreat.

And those are really important because you're living the life as closely, as you can to discern it. You have to see it. Yeah, yeah. And I'm sure it's really important for young women to realize that you have no interest in wasting their life. In other words, if you can discern with them, you're not called to this. You're not going to accept them. The desire is not to accept them for three years just so you can turn them aside. So no one's going to, I presume nobody has nets. Nobody's trying to. No, the desire, we just want people to do God's will. And so the vocation, sisters involved in vocation. Actually, all of our sisters

who have conversations about discernment and vocation. That's what we want. And we want the young women to flourish in their life, whatever that is, God's calling them to. So sometimes that's marriage.

It takes some of that pressure off, doesn't it? Sure does. It's okay. Just breathe. It's okay. Just come talk to some sisters and we'll talk together. Yeah.

This is a, yeah. That's exactly right. That's nice. Okay. Thank you very much. for being with me. I have to ask you one more question. It's sort of out of left field,

but I wanted to ask it to you earlier, and I just remembered, what does prayer look like for women who have just given birth or mothers who have like five little children running around? I remember meeting a woman who I think was with a religious order for a while,

got out, got married, and then was like having a real difficult time, not living the life she used to with adoration and death. daily mass and things like this. And my good wife, I remember hearing her once saying to a woman, like, when you're up at 2 in the morning breastfeeding, that's your holy hour. It's so beautiful.

But what advice would you give to, I don't know, women in different stages of life? Yes. So I think primarily it's seeing prayer as a response. It's not our initiative. So catechism talks about prayer as God's thirst for us. We thirst because God first thirsts for us. So I think whatever the circumstances of our life, and he knows we're trying to be faithful.

He knows these beautiful women with children all over the place who knows what's going on, markers on the wall and everything going on that God is first calling out. And he's the one who is calling out in love and providing, seeing them, seeing their hearts. and maybe just that prayer then of just taking a deep breath to receive that, just the simplest come Holy Spirit, come Lord Jesus. And that their fidelity, you know, moms, their fidelity to prayer is,

is that care for their children, care for their families, for their husband, and loving their husbands and being good to their children. That's so pleasing to the Lord. And that is a type of a prayer. And I know that they probably, you know, try to steal a moment when they go into the bathroom, close a door. You know who Dr. Peter Crafter is? Yes.

Of course. I've had him on the show and he said something like, the bathroom is the closest we married men get to a monastery or something like that. Yes. I've heard moms say similar. things. And yeah, so just take those moments and really allow. I have a beautiful friend who's a musician and she has a song called Find Me. So just find me, Lord, and whatever is going on. Beautiful. Anything else you'd like to point people to or alert people about before we wrap up?

Maybe here in Nashville, are people able to just drop by for prayer or things like this? I don't. Maybe they, I don't know how that works. Yes, it's good to give a call first. Maybe that way we could welcome you. But Vespers is probably Vespers and Rosary is probably the one that's the most regular because we have compliments, a night prayer of the church every evening. Beautiful. Thank you so much for being on the show.

Thank you. It's an honor to be with you. Great grace. Yes. Great darkness is falling upon this land. These brothers are our only hope to stand against it. Not our only hope. We need you, Mirling. Merlin. Mirlin. Mirlin was a myth

before a father was even born. Merlin slew 70 men with his own hands. You might escape you of such a thing. You're mortal man. The Penn Dragon Cycle. Rise of the Merlin. Now streaming. Only on Daily Wire Plus.