Pints With Aquinas - The Collapse of Islam Is Closer Than You Think (Michael Jones) | Ep. 580

Episode Date: May 25, 2026

Is Islam compatible with the West? Christian apologist Michael Jones breaks down the core tenets of Islam, why it conflicts with Western civilization, and why the evidence still points to Christianity being true. Ep. 580 Theotokos Rosaries are available here: https://dwplus.shop/TheotokosRosaries - - - 📚 More From Michael Jones: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@InspiringPhilosophy  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/inspiringphilosophy_ - - - Today's Sponsors: Seven Weeks Coffee: Save up to 25% with promo code 'PINTS' at https://sevenweekscoffee.com/PINTS  John Paul the Great Catholic University: If you’re ready to start a degree or just want to sharpen your craft, go to https://jpcatholic.edu/pints to learn more. Exodus 90: Download the Exodus 90 app to start your 14-Day free trial or visit https://Exodus90.com/matt to learn more.  Hallow: Deepen your personal relationship with God today. Visit https://hallow.com/MattFradd to get 3 months free. - - - Become a Daily Wire Member and watch all of our content ad-free: ⁠⁠https://www.dailywire.com/subscribe⁠⁠ 📲 Download the free Daily Wire app today on iPhone, Android, Roku, Apple TV, Samsung, and more. - - - 📕 Get my newest book, Jesus Our Refuge, here: https://a.co/d/bDU0xLb 🍺 Want to Support Pints With Aquinas? 🍺 Get episodes a week early and join exclusive live streams with me! Become an annual supporter at 👉 ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mattfradd.locals.com/support⁠⁠⁠⁠ - - - 💻 Follow Me on Social Media: 📌 Facebook: https://facebook.com/mattfradd 📸 Instagram: https://instagram.com/mattfradd 𝕏 Twitter/X: ⁠⁠⁠https://twitter.com/Pints_W_Aquinas⁠⁠⁠ 🎵 TikTok: ⁠⁠⁠https://tiktok.com/@pintswithaquinas⁠⁠⁠ 📚 PWA Merch – ⁠⁠⁠https://dwplus.shop/MattFraddMerch⁠⁠ 👕 Grab your favorite PWA gear here: https://shop.pintswithaquinas.com - - - Privacy Policy: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.dailywire.com/privacy⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What do you think people find attractive about Islam? A lot of people that want a lot of structure go to Islam. I pray five times a day I do this. The other aspect is the brotherhood mentality of Islam. Muslims will defend other Muslims to the death. Is it the case that Muslims are dreaming of Christ? I've heard stories, man. People in those culture are really affected by dreams.

Islam is just not a religion compatible with the West. They are coming here to conquer, to spread their world. And if they take over, you would see things like child marriage. you'd see things like polygamy. Isn't it true that Muslims are taught to lie to infidels? Takia, they will lie to us. Tell us what we want to hear. So you're saying that when you're in an interaction with a Muslim,

they may have that as a tactic? Oh, they do. I see it all the time. What would you say of Muhammad? Prophet, liar, or lunatic? This is an evil, evil religion, and if it takes over the world, we are doomed. Have you ever kind of sat back and honestly went,

am I not giving this a fair shake? Like, is it possible that, they're right. I first came across one of your videos maybe 15. Golly, it couldn't be that long ago. Many moons ago. How long? When did you publish that, uh, the one on the contingency argument? 2013. Yeah, it wasn't soon after that that I watched it. It was like, wow. Thank you. Yeah, that's what I, I like making those little graphic animated videos. Because the original goal of what I was doing was, man, there's a lot of dumb stuff online. I just want to put out a bunch of videos just sort of like showing the intellectual side of Christianity and just giving people some firepower to use. But I mean, like,

I don't want to be a talking head. I want to give people, I can use the screen to say more than what I'm saying. And so just, you know, making all those kind of like little videos easy for people. Is it a podcast or no? You just release things when you release them. And I know you have a big presence on TikTok and Instagram too. You're very good at those sort of short form things. Thank you. Yeah. Well, no, now, now I'm doing a whole ton. I still do the graphic videos. We release them. But we do live streams now and we do the shorts. and we're getting into some skits now. So I've been posting myself dressed as a Muslim.

Oh, good. It's been fun. Those have been going kind of viral on Instagram. Are you getting any response from our Muslim friends? They are very upset. Are they? How are they upset? Because they think I'm misrepresenting Islam

by reading their own sources. Uh-huh. So what does that tell you? So did you get into Christian apologetics by way of atheism? Yeah. So if you go back to like 2011, oh my goodness, there just was all I would find on

line was fundamentalist, Baptist, ranting about stuff they were not experts on. And then if atheists, they were just dominating YouTube. And I'm like, there's got to be some Christians that can do stuff to do this. As I said, sitting in a trailer all night working as a security guard with eight hours of free time on my hand. And I'm like, okay, yeah, I get the message, God, oh, right, I'll do something. And so I just started making videos and it just snowballed into what it is. And so when did you start doing debates. I was kind of forced into that. People just started asking me, hey, come on and do a debate. You know, Camer Routousie of capturing Christianity. He asked me to come on and do a debate early on. That was when I was still hiding my face and name. So I wasn't telling anybody who I was.

I didn't see that. So what? Did they just put up an image? Yeah. I would, I was a really hot buff guy. No. But I was terrified to show who I was. Because I, you know, my goal in 2011 was not to be this. My goal was to be the editor of this. Like hide in an editing bay far away from the stage and the camera. And yeah. Why? Because I, my parents were kind of like theater nerds. They kind of like made me do a lot of theater stuff as a kid.

I hated it, honestly, growing up. It was not my thing. And I liked editing. I still do. I think it's just fun. And I'm an introvert. I'm like, yeah, just put me in front of a computer. I'll be happy.

And God said, nope, I have another plan. So this is what you're doing now. And what bad things have resulted, if any, since showing your face? Like, what has, do you wish you had said anonymous sometimes? Yeah, yeah, there's parts. I mean, we do get death threats from Muslims. Yeah. They tried to dox me and my family.

There were some Muslims that were doing that. You know, myself, David Wood, God Logic, they were all of, they were, you know, trying to dox us. They put what they thought was my cell phone number on the screen, and it wasn't. It was an older number that I had. It's kind of funny. Everyone's calling some poor guy called Jeff. It's like, I don't know who he is. I feel bad if that happened.

It's funny, though, but it's also sad. But it's like, okay, they're looking. So, you know, now we have to move just for our own safety. You did that? You had to move? We're looking at it. Okay. So I hear about people like that who get death threats, and I'm a little jealous because I don't think anyone's ever offered to kill me.

So I got it. Maybe. Maybe you didn't check your social media. Well, we now have like a full team of ex-Navy seals here at Daily Wire. Okay. Constantly checking the web and the dark web. So they're like, we're on it. I'm like, all right, I don't think anyone's, the Mormons are upset with me, but they come at me with a sort of, they're not as violent.

Yeah, you got to go. You weren't for a tougher challenge, go after the Muslims because they don't take kindly to that. So the other thing I want to know is like when you say death threat, what does it actually mean? Because if I'm honest and I'm not accusing you or David would have this. I know that y'all are being sincere. Sometimes I wonder if it's just things people say to look cooler than they actually are. So what do you mean by death threats? Yeah, so I got a message on Twitter once or some guy was like,

just remember your blood is halal. Uh-huh, which means what? That means it's, you know, halal is mean it's good. It's not haram, which is bad in Islam. So that means spilling my blood would be approved of by Allah. So, you know, you get stuff like that. And what do you do when you get that? Do you screenshot it?

screenshot it, send it to the FBI or DHS. We've had people contact us. Hey, if you get anything, just send it over to us. Okay, here, here's another screenshot. I don't make a big fuss about it. Maybe if I don't really post it on social media because that's what they want. They want the attention.

So I just put that, I just send it to DHS or FBI contacts I have. In your work against Muslims, have you ever kind of sat back and honestly went, All right. Because sometimes we can get into conflict reaction mode and we love it. But then sometimes you pause and go, hang on, all right. Maybe, am I not giving this a fair shake? Like, is it possible that they're right?

And I just need to examine this with an open mind. Did you ever go through that, do it again, then decide immediately no? Do you know what I mean? A thousand times. Really? Yeah. Yeah, of course. I mean, like, you're not, you're not being honest if you don't go, well, wait a

maybe they have something here. I mean, there's a ton of people that believe this. And then you read the Quran again, and you go, wait, there's nothing here. This isn't saying, this is nonsense. This doesn't make any sense.

And, you know, you, I always remember the verse Jeremiah 179, the heart is wicked and deceitful, above all else, who can understand it. Because, you know, we have those fleeting emotions. And what always brings me back to Christianity is this is where all the evidences. This is, I mean,

Jesus was publicly executed, buried in a public tomb, rose leaving behind an empty tomb for the public to examine, and appeared to multiple people in public. That's different than Mormonism or Islam where it's one guy getting, I have received a revelation today. You've got to trust him.

Jesus left behind a case that can be made, which we call the resurrection argument for the truth of Christianity. We have that, and all the evidence points to Jesus actually rising from the dead. It's not like other religions where it's just one guy getting private revelations.

So at the end of the day, when I have those fleeting emotions, like maybe the Muslims have something, Maybe the Mormons have something. Maybe the Hindus have something. I go, let me examine it. Yeah. And then my head keeps me on track.

If you had to make the best case for Islam, what would you say? That's hard to do. Do you think a better case could be made for atheism? Yes. If you could debunk Christianity, I wouldn't be a Muslim. There's just think about what the Quran. Think about the history here. So like the Quran was written at a time.

before Islam became what it is, really. So this is stuff that scholars like, you know, Gabriel Reynolds, Fred Donner have pointed out, the earliest Muslims in Muhammad were more inclusive in how they thought. Jews and Christians can be saved. We're all on the same page. Muhammad thought he was a prophet, probably.

But he thought what he was preaching was going to be in line with what the Bible, the prior scriptures taught. So he was an illiterate guy, but he goes around saying, hey, you should believe in me because I'm confirming your scriptures. I'm teaching exactly the same stuff your prophets of old taught.

So just believe in me too. And of course, the Jews and Christians went and looked at their scripture. They're like, no, you're not. You're contradicting everything our prophets said. And then he would say, well, you'll see it in the Quran, like, Surah 3 and Surah 5. Or it's like, they're twisting it with their tongues.

They know I'm prophesied in there. They know I'm preaching the same stuff. But that created what we call the Islamic dilemma because Muhammad was so ignorant. He said over and over again, I'm confirming the Jewish and the Christian scriptures. I'm confirming them. So that's why you should believe in me. Believe in those scriptures and believe in me also as a prophet. Okay, well, that creates an Islamic dilemma because he was ignorant. We know he contradicts the Bible, Jewish and the Christian scriptures. So either, this is the dilemma. The dilemma is either our scriptures have been corrupted or they haven't been.

If our scriptures have not been corrupted, Islam is false because it teaches Jesus as a son of God. He died and rose from the dead, has a contradictory history, you know, and the Quran says the golden calf was made by a Samaritan. We know it was made by Aaron, like that kind of stuff. The other horn of the dilemma is if our scriptures have been corrupted, Islam is false because why is Allah confirming corrupted scriptures?

So either way, Islam is false. And so when you ask me make the best case for Islam, I don't know. I mean, like, I guess you could say Muhammad, you could say, look at how big Islam has become. Yeah. I mean, maybe that's the argument.

Didn't you say he was illiterate? He was illiterate, yeah. So do we have any good reason to think he wrote the Quran? No, no, no, no. He preached this stuff, and people memorize suras, and then they wrote them down later. Because, you know, it's rhythmic in Arabic,

and that's one of the weird arguments they will use, but even one of their own scholars, Al-Tabrity said some parts of the Quran are not elegant speech for the Arabs. So that kind of ruins the whole miracle, the Quran being the most beautiful book ever, ever it isn't. What do you think people find attractive about Islam then? Because I think most many people, maybe most of us, we're attracted to things before we're open to the truth claims about them.

And I would say that's even true today as Christianity is seeing a resurgence. It's like we live in this banal two-dimensional culture, and people look at orthodoxy or with the beards and the icons and the incense or Catholicism with the same and they go, I want that. And it's like, fair enough, you know, like being attracted by beauty is not a bad thing.

But it doesn't mean it's a true thing, right? So what is it about Islam that attracts people? Is it its simplicity? Is it its culture that appears to be less infected by wokeism, et cetera? I think it's two things. A lot of people that go to prison end up converting to Islam.

unfortunately. It's because Islam provides that structure. You know, you go through, you're in prison for several years. You get up at this time, you do this thing at this day. You get out in Islam as that kind of structure. So a lot of people that want a lot of structure go to Islam. I pray five times a day I do this. The other aspect is the brotherhood mentality of Islam. Like Muslims will defend other Muslims to the death to the point where it's like you'll see them like Muslim siding with like Islamic countries against their home country like America or some European country. So people get attracted to that loyalty. The problem is once you get into Islam, that whole loyalty thing's a myth. Is that right? They're they're at each other's throats all the time. Is that right? Because I would agree with you. Like from the outside, I see that and that is attractive, especially from the inside of Christianity. I see a bunch of us YouTubers just sort of picking on each other and getting upset about. Well, compare that to the Muslim YouTubers. Okay. They are always at each other's throats. They record each other's conversation. to use on each other. They have dirt on each other.

Be like if any of them, you talk about me, I'll throw this out. Oh, but if you talk about me, I'll throw this out. It's wild. And like every now and then that'll leak out. They try to hide it.

But we get the hints and we get the clips, myself, David Wood. I mean, you know, apostate prophet, God logic. Well, we see it. So they're at each other's throats. And Islam is very divided on the inside.

I mean, like, you know, we have Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestants, of Christianity. We're like, okay, we're all Christian. We disagree about this or that, but we're all Christian. The two major branches of Islam, Sunni and Shia, call each other heretics all the time. You have four schools in Sunni Islam. They're always fighting. You have Salafis fighting, which is like a revivalist movement in Islam, trying to make it back to what, make it more traditional and hardcore. They're fighting with non-Salafis. You'll see people fighting with the Wahhabis.

I mean, there's all these different factions in there and they're fighting. And then they're fighting in terms of countries they support. Oh, you support UAE, why support Saudi Arabia? It's very, but this is the thing, though, Islam, in the Quran, it's kind of opposite of what the Bible does. The Bible teaches us to defend the faith. Islam teaches them to be on the offensive. Muhammad was going around challenging the pagans of his day, the Jews of his day. So it builds this mentality that I need to be on the attack vote.

I need to attack the pagans, the Jews. But that boils over into them now, and they're fighting amongst themselves because they feel like they always have to be on the attack mode. It's like when you train a dog to be on the attack mode, you've got to keep it away from small children because it could just go off. And you'll see this with the Dawa Bros, the defenders of Islam.

They start fighting with each other over little things. I mean, there was an eight-hour live stream between Jake Brankatella, Daniel Akikichu, and sometimes this guy named Dean would pop in and out, But they were fighting for like eight hours on this stream over little things. Like can you sacrifice to the gin in the name of a lot? Can you do this? Like really look like stuff that I didn't even care about.

But that was that was eye opening you a lot of non-Muslims about wow, they really are at each other's throats. This brotherhood thing is an illusion. And it is. So I am really excited to tell you that I have partnered with Theotokos Rosaries. These are without a doubt the most beautiful. beautiful rosaries I have ever seen in my life. Theratocos rosary sent me one maybe about a year ago or so. And I remember being absolutely blown away.

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gift, a gift for those who are getting married, maybe Father's Day, Mother's Day. Like, honestly, a beautiful gift. I remember what moved me so much is when I sent this to my, I won't say who, because I don't want to call them out, but a family member who doesn't actually pray the rosary, they started praying the rosary. And I think it's honestly because it's so beautiful and so sacred looking. So again, go to dailywire.com slash shop to pick one up today and thank you to Theotokos Rosaries for partnering with us. So they're fighting over doctrine? Mm-hmm.

A lot of doctrine. You're not, you know, remember Islam is a works-based religion. Okay. It's not like Christianity. You're saved by grace through faith, not of works so that no man may boast. Like, we all agree on that, Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, even though we may bicker over little things, but in Islam, it's a work-based. So you do this little thing you mess up, like there's a clip of Sneco, who convert,

to Islam, finding out he can't wear red in Islam, or maybe his understanding of it. And he's like, whoa, I didn't know this. Or there's a clip of him interviewing a Sheikh in Saudi Arabia. And the Sheikh is telling him, if you doubt Muhammad at all, you're a kaffir, which means you've left Islam. And it's like, it's a religion

where you're walking on egg shells all the time. You can't do this. You can't eat that. You can't say this. You have to wear this. You have to dress this way. Why can't you wear red? I don't remember the reason.

It was weird. It was like. So, you know, in Catholicism, we have a magisterium, right? In Islam, is there something like that? Oh, yeah, there's different schools, there's Amm's, yeah. And then is there more of a, forgive the analogy, but more of a Protestant-type group of those who say, we don't need a magistrate, and we have the word of God here. They're called Quran. They're called Quran-only Muslims.

So they're kind of like the Protestants of Islam. The K-JV only, but Quran only, K-only, okay. Mainstream Sunni and Shia consider them heretics. like that's the thing like you know the disagreements between Catholics and Baptists okay you believe in the Trinity

you believe Jesus is coming back the inspiration of scripture great okay we believe on core doctrines I'm not going to call you a heretic not going to apply the same to Mormon or Jehovah Witness because they're breaking essential doctrines but in the Sunnis

will declare the Quran onlyest Muslims heretics because they're not holding to the traditions of the prophet and the later teachings of thick and the schools of thought. So I wonder if that's not part of the attraction, right? Like let's say you're a Christian in North America and you're dissatisfied with your particular branch of it.

And so maybe you go hardcore, you become like a Calvinist bro or a rad trad or an author bro. And then if that's not doing it enough for you, you look over the fence and you see what appears to be a masculine, united, simple religion. And you go, I'm going to give that a shot. And what you're saying is when people do that, that's when you see how divided and- They, they, they put, Islam is like the Wizard of Oz. Okay.

Okay, he looks big, scary and powerful. You pull back the curtain, and it's just a little man. Okay. They put up this giant show that we have a simple religion, just believe in one God,

and we all, this amazing brotherhood and got each other's backs, and it's so great, and then you get in, and people are like, I didn't know how bad this was. I mean,

there's some data out there. I forget where, but shows it like 50 to like 70% I think of converts to Islam leave within five to ten years. And we do call-in shows with Muslims. We had a guy, Colin, he named with Khalid, he was a white convert to Islam. And he left because he just, it was so racist, he said,

like towards him and it was always this infighting and he just felt like- Well, because he was what? Yeah, he said, the way he explained it was is that they want white converts. Yeah, but then once you're in, you're not really. They get mad if you start learning too much, because then they feel inferior again.

Huh. They look at the West as superior because the West is a superior culture to the Islamic culture. Yeah. So they want to bring in Westerners in. Yes, bring more of them in. But when they get him in,

they wanted to be, you know, they wanted to be good dimmys, good little boys. Have you seen that blonde Australian Sheila who does TikToks and talks about how great Islam is? How much money is she getting paid? I don't know.

Yeah. Well, I don't know. Because the other thing I think is if you just sort of just assume that most of us are narcissists, and just desperately want attention. That's true. Then it's like you start, you're a blonde young woman who's decent attractive, I guess.

Like you do a little video and you have a lot of men all around the world cheering for you. But I wonder what would, is she, she's a Muslim. She's a Muslim. She's taking her shahada in several videos because. What does that mean? That's where you declare the Muhammad to the Prophet. It's like what you say to become a Muslim. You take the shahada.

But I mean, we know the Muslims are paying influencers. There was a, there's a Viking historian. on YouTube who says he put up a video says I was approached by these guys from the Middle East and they had a blank check basically and they said they wanted me to do a documentary series based on his books on Viking history but he had to include that some of the earliest Vikings were Muslim and he was like I can't do that that's a lie but they were willing to pay we've heard from like certain pastors in the UK that have been approached saying convert to Islam will give you whatever you want and just write a book saying you you became a Muslim for all the

amazing proof of Islam which there isn't any but you know I'm also seeing a sort of softening towards Islam from people who are considered conservative I've seen video clips where both Tucker and Candace and others are basically softening it's like they're softening towards yeah or yeah Islam as they're hardening against Israel thoughts that's terrifying The biggest threat to the West for the past 1,400 years, has been Islam. It's been the Islamic world. And Christians have fought tooth and nail to defend our civilization for centuries. And now the secularists are here, and they're opening the door, letting them flood in, and they have no idea what they've done.

This is not a culture like ours. Muslims are not coming here to assimilate. If they do assimilate, it's because they've deconverted. Islam is not a religion that can assimilate. It's a religion based on conquest. It's a religion based on authoritarian regimes. It's a religion that promotes and encourages slavery, even sexual slavery.

How does it do that? How does it promote sexual slavery? The Quran and Muhammad said that if you were at war with the infidel and you attack and kill all the men, those women in those villages, you've captured them in war, you can take them as your sex slaves. It says that in the Quran.

It says the women, it says those that your right hand possesses. There's no limit on that. You can have four wives in Islam, but there's no limit on as many sex slaves. So slavery is good to go, good to go in Islam. How would a Muslim respond to that? That depends on the Muslim. Some of them will hide it. Some of them will just be like, yeah, and that's a good thing.

Really? Yeah, I've seen it done. Am I right in thinking that a Muslim contacted you and said they wanted to debate you on child marriage? Yeah, his name is Daniel Hakikicu. He's the world's leading defender of child marriage. And I watched the debate, David. First of all, what was it like when someone challenged you to a debate? Sorry, I should not laugh.

But I would think it's how I was being punked if someone challenged me to a debate on child marriage. I think I'd do is like, wait, you don't think I believe that to you? I don't believe that. Oh, wait, you believe that? You want to say that? That's kind of what happened. But yeah, so build up to that is I watched the debate between David Wood on the topic. And I just sort of made some tweets about how horrible it was.

Well, then he found the tweets and got mad. and so he challenged me. I challenged you to debate child marriage. And I was like, and you know, I have a daughter. She was like six or seven at the time. So Aisha's age. Yeah. Wasn't Aisha six?

She was six when she was married to Muhammad. And then he consummated when she was nine. But something, when he challenged me, something ticked in my father brain, like something primal urge came up. And I like stopped what I was doing. And I just started researching the child marriage because I'm like, yeah, I'm doing this.

He's going down. this is we can't stand for this and I was like yeah that's when I realized like I knew Islam was a problem but that's when I knew Islam was a problem. This is a guy raised in the West who is a Muslim who's saying the world will be better if

we could children now just as long as we put a marriage contract on it but that's what a lot of Muslims will say we can write all the children we want as long as they're nine or older and we put a marriage contract on it right and that's what we're up against And they also say, not that it makes it better, but I'm just trying to do what I can hear for them.

Wouldn't they say that they have to have been of the age of puberty? Some will say that. The Quran doesn't say that. Suras 654 basically says women who haven't menstruated, they're free game. It does say that. It's talking about the ita, the period you wait between if you divorce a woman when she get remarried. And so they ask them, well, what about women that don't menstruate? And Mohammed's like, well, if they've not menstruated and all the tough series say it refers to women of any age,

young that haven't menstruated yet. It's not referring to post-menopausal. Yeah, they got to wait three months before. So basically what that verse of the Quran is saying, Ceres 65-4 is like a six-year-old can be married off. The guy can sleep with her, and then he can divorce her, and then they have to wait three months

to repeat the process. Okay, yeah. It's horrible. It's evil. But I mean, are they not Muslim academics who would go, you're picking a crazy person on the internet called Daniel whatever, who is pushing an interpretation of the scripture that we actually don't hold to

and therefore you're attacking a straw man. He's got hundreds of thousands of followers. I'm not attacking a straw man. I'm attacking mainstream thought in Islam. Sure, there are some intellectual, some academics that take a more moderate view. They're not the, these are not the spokesman for Islam. The people that I'm debating,

people that I'm trying to, people that I'm attacking, like Muhammad Ijab, Ali Dawa, Daniela Kikichu. These are the spokespeople for mainstream. And they hold basically to this what you're saying. They do, yeah. They would agree with the sex slavery and they would agree with child marriage. Absolutely.

This is really hard for my brain to wrap around. But think about how. Sounds insane. And we're opening the door and letting them flood into our civilization acting like, well, they can just, they'll just fit right in. No, they won't. They're here to dominate. They're here to take over and turn these into Islamic countries where you have those.

What's taken place in London with the, with the, that's been taken place? Yeah, that it's absolutely horrible, yeah. And this is a result of Islam, you'd say. It's, it's definitely, Islam is definitely influencing their thought. Absolutely. I mean, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the Quran says the pattern of conduct for Muslims is Muhammad. It's in Surah 33, for example. Yeah, you have to submit to all of his decisions.

That's in Surah 4. So what he says, you have to, you can't question it. He said it was okay to consummate a marriage to a, nine-year-old. He raped a nine-year-old. He's a pedophile. So therefore, in the Muslim brain, having sex with a nine-year-old is okay because the prophet did it. Now, sure, there are five, one percent of Muslims. Maybe don't think that happening, but like 85 percent around that figure are Sunni Muslims that accept the Hadith, and there are numerous, I mean, dozens of of Hadith that say that that's what Muhammad did. So the overwhelming majority are going to be people that

are going to be okay with child marriage, even if they're not engaging with it, if they saw another Muslim doing it, they can't say anything about it. Are there women influences in Islam, other than that blonde lady? Yeah, there are some, yeah. And how do they interact with these texts?

They have to defend it. It's terrifying to watch, but you'll see them. They'll try to justify it. I don't know how you can justify this. You know, we're Christians. We'd be like, okay, listen, yeah. Moses did some bad things.

That doesn't mean we. David. Yeah, David. Peter. Yeah. Moses did something horrible in Numbers 31. I agree. We don't, we don't, we just say, yeah, they messed up all of sin and fallen short of the glory of God.

Yeah. Only Jesus is perfect. Okay. For Muslims, they can't do that. They have a doctrine that prophets can't commit major sins. So they have to defend whatever Muhammad did, as if it's moral. So it's different for us. So if you were to condemn marital relations with a nine-year-old, you'd be condemning Muhammad.

Absolutely. Is there anyone with a significant platform that condemns? Not that I've seen. I wish. That's ridiculous. Yeah. So, okay, then why is it that you think most people watching us right now, many will be like, this is, I don't believe you because I encounter Muslims and they don't say these things that you're saying.

Yeah. They just seem like decent people. They say their prayers. They seem more faithful to their prayers than Christians. This is hate months. You're just trying to stir up animosity towards a minority group. My first question is, is where are you talking to? Where are you when you're talking to them?

The Uber. The Uber. I'm just giving you an Uber. I'm just giving you an example. They're not going to say this stuff out loud because they know it's going to upset Westerners. That's what we have to remember. Okay, the is the pattern of conduct. Look at what Muhammad did when he was in Mecca, when he was a small persecuted minority,

the Muslim community. You know, he tried to assimilate, he tried to be peaceful. He tried to say, we're just not going to do anything. Then he moved to Medina, and he got more power. And then he started waging wars.

He started flexing his muscles a little bit. And then when they became the overwhelming majority, then it was like, no more Jews and Christians allowed in Arabia. Let's kill all the pagans. It's a three-stage plan. When you're the minority, just, you know, pretend to be peaceful.

Ibn Kathir, one of their famous scholars talked about this. You can make temporary treaties with them. Then when you become more of a substantial minority, start flexing your muscles a little bit, start saying, well, we want to blast the Islamic prayer five times a day, even at 5.30 in the morning, which we're seeing in places like Dearborn now. And then when they become the majority, okay, now we're in charge. Sharia's the law.

You can either convert, you can be our dimmys, which means you're a Jew or Christian, you pay a humiliating tax, or you fight us and we kill you. Like, you get those options, basically. You can either convert, be our dimmy, where you're not going to have freedom of speech not have freedom of religion and I mean you see this you know in Islamic countries now or you know or the third option

as you fight them but um Christians in like you know Egypt they can't proselytize they can't evangelize Sharia law says you know you can't proselytize as a Christian you can't evangelize you can't even carry weapons so Second Amendment gone under Islam absolutely

no no weapons for the Jews and Christians absolutely under Islam you can't build a pair new churches under Sharia. You just have to let them, because the goal is to eventually take over. So they're not going to force you to be Muslim, but they're going to make it very, very hard for you to be a non-Muslim. So we have tried a lot of different coffees over the years in the frat household, but our sponsor, seven weeks coffee is the one that my wife and I keep turning back to regularly have it stocked in our pantries right above the espresso machine. It's not just

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The problem with having a podcast is you forget how much you've said. You've been on the show before. But yeah, so there's this guy who's a driver and he drives around and picks up the Christians in secret and brings them to this house. And it's the priest's house. And they have a couple of people around the perimeter with cell phones to call if the police are coming. They always have a birthday cake in the fridge so they can quickly turn the Holy Mass celebration into someone's birthday if they have to. And this, I'm sitting across on them and I just feel so ashamed at how cowardly I sometimes am about my faith. And I look at these people.

I'm really proud of them. They're like, would you like to come and talk? And I'm like, I don't, I mean, yes, but also no. They talked about this conference they tried to have. And it was in a barn. In Saudi Arabia? Yeah. Okay, conference might be too strong a word, but it was some gathering at a barn.

And the police pulled over because there was a bunch of shoes outside of the barn. And they said to me, you wouldn't be executed. They're just, that's great. Yeah, I'll tell my wife, you'll just. you'll just be deported, but if you, if you lived there, you'd be be beheaded. Yeah. Send me. I'll go.

Yeah? We got to do something about this. It's bad. That's what they will do in the UK. Pilgrimage, let's do it. Who's with me in the comments? Maybe, maybe you and I can go. I'll do it.

Yeah, I'll definitely go and help them. I mean, like, we need to. And, well, the worst they can do is kill us. Yeah. That's not bad. We're going to get a new body anyway. And then the worst they can do is make me into a martyr. And as Tertullian said, the blood of the martyrs is the seat of the new church.

And that's... Well, you might not need to go there, because aren't you going to Dearborn Michigan soon? I would love to, yeah. I'm going to go... You might. So tell me about what's going on in Deerborn, Michigan. Have you following it? It's awful, yeah.

So Muslims are brought in long time ago to work in Henry Ford's factories, and they've just taken over that specific area, and they've turned it into like a satellite Islamic, you know, culture, civilization. And so yeah, it's that they're blasting the Adon the Muslim prayer five times a day. They're it's like their schools are like 99% Muslim. I mean like this is there. They'll have, you know, rallies there chanting death to America. I mean like you're Americans I thought like what are you I mean, it's easy to point to Islam and point out the errors and fair enough we should always do that. But also like what does it say about us that we have apostatized as a nation and abandoned. Christ and the faith. Yeah, it's terrifying. We've said that men can have periods, that fornication is okay, that prostitution is sex work. That's the other kind of part of this argument for Islam that I can see. Like someone, okay, it's simple, their brotherhood thing, it's masculine. Also, I don't know, like are there, are they, are they queers for Palestine in Palestine? Like are there

no, they throw them all off in buildings, no. Is that right? Oh yeah, you can't be, you can't be publicly queer in Islam. You can be privately, I mean, because they don't want to bring shame to the community. That's a problem happening. But I mean, like, you're not going to get rid of all that sin just by going to Islam. They just sanction it. Again, you can have four wives. You can have as many sex slaves as you want. You can have child marriage. I mean, like, marriage is not a sacrament in Islam. It's a contract. So the husband decides he wants to divorce his wife and get a new one, he can just do that. It's a lot harder in Christianity to do that because you're violating a sacrament. This is something, this is a holy matrimony set up by God. I wonder if the reason

you see people like Tucker Carlson going against the kind of main, I don't know, the kind of understanding that you and I would have against Islam is he writes. looks at the state of America and the state of morals within our country and despairs over it. Yeah, I, I, I, so it's not, the argument is an Islam or, or American culture as it currently exists. That's not what we're saying. No, yeah, as it currently exists, it's absolutely depraved and damnable and America doesn't exist to, we don't deserve to exist as a country. Like, when you're offering free sex changes, quote unquote, to prisoners, I don't know, I don't think you deserve to exist at all as a country, but I don't.

definitely don't think you deserve to exist as a country when you're allowing pornography on airplanes. Yeah. Delta flights. They allow sex scenes in front of children because they apparently hate children. So I get the outrage against the depravity of where we are. So now, that's it. I just wanted to say that.

Well, I mean, like, it's not going to fix anything. I mean, take something in Islam like polygamy. You may think, well, what's wrong with having four wives? Well, humans have produced roughly 50, 50 percent men and women. What happens when you have a society that has polygamy? Just do the math. If the top 10% each have four wives. Okay, that means like the bottom 30% of men will be single.

What do they do? They join terrorist organizations. They join gangs. They get more violent. People say that most terrorism happens in the Islamic world. Yeah. I believe you because, again, you have a bunch of violent young men with no hope of a future. This is what the ancient societies did when they had large harums for the elites.

sent all their men to die and fight in wars. So we're not, now the West sort of controls everything. They can't really do that. So this is why they are, there's so many Islamic terrorist organizations. I mean, you're not going to fix anything by going to Islam. Right. We're going to have different problems. And they're, in many ways, they're going to be worse problems.

Like cutting off your head to stop a nosebleed. Yeah, it's, that's a good analogy, yeah. You've just made it way worse. Mm-hmm. Tell me about this debate you had recently with the fellow who tried to argue that since Islam means submission to God and Jesus submitted to God, therefore Jesus was a Muslim. Am I getting that right? Yeah, his name is Asan Shibli.

He's an attorney in the U.S. Very nice guy. One of the Muslims I wish would be more, it's like this, you know. Does he disagree with child marriage? I hope so. I didn't ask him that. But he's, I think he would. I think he would.

I wish he was more of the spokesman for Islam, not people like Muhammad Jab. You know, Hassan will debate, Muhammad Jaham, no will never debate me. But I mean, Hassan will. So, but we debated as Jesus a Muslim. And yeah, it's the silliest position ever. I just basically pointed out, okay, then I'm a Muslim. I submit to God.

Well, you don't submit the right way. Well, okay, define what that is. Basically, the Quran says Jesus was a Muslim. So they have to say Jesus was a Muslim. And then they have to have the most ad hoc definition, the most convoluted responses where, okay, to be a Muslim means you submit to God, but as long as you submit to God the way I want, and I think Jesus did, therefore Jesus was a Muslim. And you just bring up stuff like, well, Jesus said that he's the son of God.

Jesus said he's going to die in atone for sins. Jesus claimed to be divine. He claimed to be God. Now what? And so I started bringing that stuff up to him, and of course he had no response. Wouldn't the response be that the scriptures that you read have been corrupted? And I simply ask, well, why does your scriptures confirm? mine. Maybe they weren't corrupted in the 10th century, 11th century. The 7th century? Sorry,

7th century. I'm thinking of orthodoxy. Sorry, 7th century, yeah. Yes, false. We have Codex Sinaiticus, Codex Vaticanus, I think is how it's pronounced. Uh, all these codices from prior to Islam. So if you want to say that they were corrupt at the time of Islam, you would expect these, yeah, documents from that time period to be corrupted and yet they're not. Yeah. And again, The Quran in Surah 2.41, 447, 543 to 548, 568, 1094, 2946, confirms our scriptures, tells us to believe, tells Jews and Christians to believe in the scriptures you have. Use those scriptures. Over and over again, like a beating drum, the Quran is confirming our scriptures.

So if they start attacking our scriptures, they're debunking Islam. There's no debate a Muslim can have with a Christian on the topic of, Islam versus Christianity, which is true, which they can win. Because I can just say the best you can do is lose or come out tie. Because if you attack my scriptures, I'm going to just point out your scriptures confirm mine. So what are you doing? So what's the tie? How would they tire? Because they could say that they're both false.

Oh, I mean, because... That doesn't seem like a tie. It seems like they would lose. Exactly. So this is the conundrum the Quran gives them because the Quran over and over again confirms our scriptures. And the Quran says we can find Muhammad in our Bible. Now, where? Surah 7-157. It's simply where in the Bible.

Oh, it says that it's somewhere in the Torah and the gospel. The snake. That might be it, yeah. Maybe it's the talking donkey that spoke to Balaam, I don't know. But think about this. That creates a paradox for Muslims because the Quran says they have to find Muhammad in our scriptures. But our scriptures, the prophecies in our book are theologically indexed.

They teach Christian theology. So any prophet our scriptures predict. would have to be in line with what the Bible teaches. So this is another dilemma for Muslims. If there's a future prophet in the Bible, Islam is false because he'd have to preach Christianity.

But if there is no future prophet in the Bible, then Islam is also false because Islam says they're supposed to be. So that's another dilemma. I call it the biblical prophet dilemma. Either way, Islam is false. So this is a paradox the Quran creates for Muslims.

Find Muhammad in their scripture. But if they find a future profit, Islam is false. If they don't, Islam is false. Hmm. So even though maybe in the West, it appears to us that Islam is on the rise, and maybe that just is the fact of the matter. Mm-hmm. But what's taking place in traditionally Muslim countries?

Are they thriving? Are they seeing a resurgence, a return to Islam? No. Internet is killing Islam. How so? People are getting this information out. Minds with Aquinas. This show.

This show, right here. David Wood and you. And you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Really? So what do you mean is killing Islam? I mean, you have this, you have this, these arguments being presented. Is that the basic point that? That's part of it. But think of the psychology. So the more of it. Islam teaches they're meant to be dominating, conquesting religion. They're meant to go out and take over the world. It's theirs. They can't right now. They're, they're being dominated by the West. We have turned Islamic countries into our dimmies, so to speak. They work for the United States. I mean, look at like Saudi Arabia. They just, you know, they just, you. You know, when we start attacking Iran, they do our bidding. That's just, and so to them, they have this inferiority complex because their holy book says they're supposed to be dominating the world.

So they're supposed to be dominating. Okay. They're not. So they're going, well, okay, I can't drink alcohol. I can't eat pork. I can't dance. I can't listen to music. What am, like, it's psychologically upsetting them

because they're supposed to be dominating. The West is dominating them. So it bothers them. So people are working. about Islam taking over. I am too. I think we need to fight this and do something about it. But there's a brighter picture also in this as well. So I looked at the numbers. The non-Muslim birth rate, global non-Muslim birth rate is 2.2. The Muslim birth rate is 2.9. So you go, oh no, hold up. There's also some Muslim amms will admit 24 to 26% of youth are leaving

Islam. There's clips online of them, these different imams saying we're having, we're dealing with an avalanche of apostasy. Really? So I'm going, 24% of Muslim youth are leaving Islam. Now do the numbers. Now is that because of hedonism

and all sorts of... It's secular is... The point is it doesn't matter. They're leaving. They're leaving, yeah. It's just a little bit people are wrestling with the contradictions

in the Quran, like the Islamic dilemma. They're wrestling with the inferiority of their civilization, the superiority of the West. The moral problems of Muhammad does bother them a lot. The fact that he did that, yeah.

So, but do the math. if you take 75% of 2.9, it's going to get you around 2.2. But if you add that 25% to the 2.2, the non-Muslim birth rate, that's going to make it a little bit higher. So based on those projections, if 24 to 26% of youth are leaving Islam,

they're not going to take over. There just isn't. Now, we as Christians need our birth rates up, for sure. We need to combat secularism, for sure. That's a problem. But at least on this, They're not projected to take over like they thought. But it's almost like we're talking about four different things.

We're talking about Christianity per se and then the cultures that are traditionally Christian, which have become depraved. And then we're talking about Islam per se and then the culture that that inculcates in people. So even if people are apostatizing from Islam, that doesn't mean they're not bringing in their particular culture into Western countries when they migrate, right? Well, you would think that. But, I mean, again, what's the superior culture right now? It's Western civilization. As far as force is concerned, yes. As far as I've seen, I've not seen an ex-Muslim that is like, yeah, I'm still culturally

Muslim. No, they want to become Westerners. Yeah, but what I mean is it's not like they're leaving aside their violent passions necessarily when they leave Islam. Are they? I mean, some might, if there's like a virtual, a virtue revolution. That's a good question. Yeah, I don't actually know.

I've not seen that, though, as what I'll say. A lot of the people that I deal with, a lot of the ex-Muslims I talk to, they become Christian or they're atheist, and they're more westernized than anything else. I think one of the good things we need to remember is what we know, is that Christianity really has saturated the world in its culture. People think like Christians, even if they don't realize it, whether you're Muslim or not.

I mean, like, this is why people are so bothered by the moral problems of Muhammad today and they weren't a thousand years ago because Christianity has saturated our culture and made it implemented in our brains that having sex with children is wrong. The ancients didn't think like that. The Greeks, the Romans,

the scholar John Martin notes that early Christians coined a new term that meant child corruptor because they didn't want to use the traditional term that meant child lover. So they coined a new Greek term meant child corruptor. And they really started pushing this culture that having sex with children is wrong, which wasn't the norm in the ancient pagan culture.

And in Islam, it was normal as well to have sex with children. And why do we now think that's all evil? Has everything to do with Christianity changing the culture? So even this dying culture in which we live is running on the fumes of Christianity when it condemns things like slavery and child sex and racism. The only reason slavery is gone is because of Christianity. You know, like when missionaries went off to Morocco, they went to abolitionists went there. They went to one of the governors there

and we're here to like campaign against slavery and the guy, the governor there in Morocco said, well, we can, that's against our religion. Because, you know, Islam is all pro-slavery and Christianity is what gave the fuel to the abolitionist movement that ended it. I mean, that's just the fact. I mean, if you actually study the New Testament,

you'll come away with the idea that slavery cannot exist alongside the teachings of the New Testament. I can do it three easy steps. Good for it. Yeah. So Paul says in 1 Corinthians 7, you cannot sell yourself into slavery.

You cannot voluntarily become a slave. All right. First Timothy 2 list enslavers as a sin. So you cannot force anyone to be a slave. So right then and there, if the early church had followed those teachings perfectly, no new slaves would have been ever been made. They obviously didn't.

Because you can't make yourself a slave, nor can you be made a slave. Exactly. What about those that were already slaves? Well, even on that alone, slavery should have died out if they followed it perfectly. They didn't. But go to Ephesion 6. Slaves obey your masters. But notice what Paul says right after that.

Masters do likewise also. And scholars like Andrew Lincoln will point out, yep, he's saying basically this is presenting equality. You're not going to have real. Slavery can't thrive in this if masters have to treat their slaves the way slaves treat their masters. Everyone serve each other. So it's a radical take on the position. But that would have that that's the fuel that gave rise to the abolitionist movement later on. And yeah, it didn't happen right away, but if you actually study European history, they were doing so many things to end slavery. You'll see this pope. Like, all right, no more owning slaves in this area. We're going to ban

the Venetian slave trade here. And then you see, you know, so eventually they were making these incremental steps towards ending slavery. People don't realize it. I did a video called how Christianity ended slavery went into huge detail on that. So by the time you get to like the 1500s, there's no more slaves in Europe. So what do they do? They go to Africa, kind of get their slaves. And then there's a book called by Catherine Gerbner.

She points out that when they brought slaves to the Sugar Islands, missionaries showed up. And they were like, we want to convert the slaves. And the slave masters were like, no, because if you convert them, we'll have. have to free them. So what could be more evil than preventing missionaries to try to convert slaves? So they can't convert slaves.

But you gotta think about it though. Like Christianity didn't just wake up one day and decide on slavery. If you study the history, you go through it, you know, you see them making small incremental steps to get rid of slavery.

Like St. Anselm, for example, was campaigning against slavery. There were various, you know, like, popes that would, like, ban, like, the Venetian slave trade or no more Jews owning slaves. Okay. No more Christians.

zoning each other Christians as slaves. So, yeah, Christianity gave rise to the abolitionist movement. It ended slavery. I wish it would have happened faster, but it did slowly end it because it took a while for Christianity to saturate and slowly change the culture. So you, David Wood, apostate prophet and other fellas out there are doing really great work. Thank you. I was so honored to have both David and apostate prophet.

I don't know why I keep calling him that. I just, that's his, yeah. We just call him AP. AP. It was great to see the kind of work you all are doing. What kind of messages do you get from Muslims other than death threats? Are you getting people right to you who are genuinely questioning whether they should leave Islam? We'll get, we'll do, we'll do, call in streams.

Coming into debate, show us Islam is true. Do those a lot. A couple weeks ago, we had a kid calling named Liam. Colin Stream is still up. Liam? Liam. Yeah, he was a convert to Islam. Traditional Islamic name there.

Yeah, no, he converted when he was 18, he was 20 years old. within an hour of talking to him. He was broke down in tears and left Islam. Bless him. How did that conversation go? I mean, people can go look it up. Maybe you can send me the link, please. We'll put it below for people to check out.

But sum it up. Yeah, we just started showing them problems in Islam. Then he was, he was very open to it. It's like, we can kind of tell. And so then we just started presenting the gospel. And he, I just, it just, I don't think we did anything. It was the Spirit. The Holy Spirit did that.

So he came on to question or to be aggressive with you, No, he just wanted to have a conference. He was not being aggressive. Sometimes you'll get the macho man Muslim coming. I'm going to refute you and show off to my boys. Where does he live this, Liam? I don't know. He didn't, he didn't say.

He sounded English, though, speaking. He was American, yeah. American, yeah. And he called, and you just sort of, it sounds, I mean, do you think he called wanting to get out, wanting for a reason? I don't think he realized it. I think, again, the spirit moved. Wow.

He just, what we started just talking about it. And, you know, he's like, you know, somehow we got on the topic of, you know, The God of Islam really doesn't love us, but you know, he's just, you can only be his slaves. You can't be a son in Islam. And I'm like, but, you know, God does love you. That's why he died for you. And I just, it started to break things down. And he broke in the tears.

He says, I feel like I'm Judas because I betrayed Christ. And I say, you're not Judas, man. You're Peter. Peter betrayed Christ, too. And, but Christ called him back. He didn't kill himself. And Christ called him back. So that's you now.

You now go out and be like Peter. And that's, that's, because you got to think in the ancient world what Peter did to the ancient mindset, him betraying Jesus. That was a, that was a death sentence to the ancient mind. You betrayed your Lord. You should either be killed or never returned to him. And Jesus shows up and says, Peter, do you love me? And he goes, yes, go feed my sheep. So that's the beauty of Christianity.

And that's what we're saying. Like, listen, all Muslims, you can be. have that same experience as well. But don't, isn't, isn't Allah referred to as the most merciful and compassionate? You make all the claims you want. If you're not actually that, you're not. Listen, there's a difference between Christianity and all the world religions. I mean, look at Allah.

He's up on his throne, throwing down commands, do this or I'll send you to hell, do that, or I'll torture you forever. Only in Christianity does God get off his throne and come down to us and say, I'll live the way you should live and I'll die the death you deserve so that I can take you to my father. It's vastly different because Jesus is not a God who says, go and do as I say or else, but a God who says, come and follow me.

You do as I do and we'll change this world, washing one sinner at a time. And so which is really the most compassionate and loving, which is the most merciful? Well, it's clearly the God who's on the cross, not the God who's on his throne and never leaves it. Yeah. What suggestions do you have for those engaged in either online apologetics or in-person apologetics to try to point out the errors of Islam and to convert people?

Use the Islamic dilemma. Yeah. It's, man, that's their kryptonite. They don't like that. Show them the biblical prophet dilemma that I've talked about. Start showing that stuff. Show them the moral problems of Muhammad. Show them the moral problems of Islam.

I mean, there's research that shows Islam leads to violence. It leads to wife beating. There's a metathnography was done showing, yeah, we see that there's higher rates of domestic violence from Islamic families. Is this really a culture that God made? Is this really the world that God wants? I mean, there was this great study by Davis Brown. He looked at Christianity, Islam, and Buddhism. Yeah.

And he found Christianity was negatively associated with more war and violence. Buddhism was non-significant. Islam was positively associated with it. So show them that kind of stuff Start breaking down the Again Islam is like the Wizard of Oz When you start to break down those barriers Then you can present them to gospel

To witness to Muslims Which we got to do You gotta first break down the Islamic Illusion of superiority of truth And then when you do that Then you can present the gospel to them And that's the going to be the best way So use the Islamic dilemma

Show them the Quran is contradicting itself through and through. Show them that Muhammad's not in our Bible. Even if he was, that means Islam is false. Show them that Muhammad the nine-year-old and all these immoral things. Show them that Quran, Surah 65-4 allows you to have sex with prepubescent girls.

This is an evil, evil religion, and if it takes over the world, we are doomed. Brothers, summer's fast approaching, a season we all need for rest and a bit of breathing room. But if we're honest, it's also a time when faith can quietly take the back seat. That's why I'm really excited about what Exodus 90 is doing with the Kings of Summer Challenge. It's a beautiful invitation for men to slow down, pray and reflect on Christ's

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months free. Yeah. I've heard, and I've heard so many times that I think there must be something to it, but I also am on guard against Christians, you know, just hallucinating this, that is it the case that Muslims are dreaming of Christ? Is it the case that there is a wave of Muslims coming to Christ? I've heard stories, man. I mean, it's like you keep hearing it so much. You're like, you got this. I even heard it from a Muslim who didn't convert. He convinced. himself it was a gin. A gin meaning for those at home? The closest analog is demon, but they're not exactly the same in Islam.

I had to learn that. So, gin, it's like these spiritual things that live in another plane of existence. But he said he had a dream of Jesus, and he convinced himself it was a gin. So, you know, that... Well, who was David's friend? Nabil Kuresh. Yeah, like those dreams, if people want to go watch my interview with David Wood, he goes into that. Like those dreams he had.

he had didn't you have like three of them but were increasingly wild yeah that was amazing i mean you know people in those culture are really affected by dreams and if jesus is out there still getting ready to save people and he still is saving people he will use what works in various cultures dreams works in islamic culture i got a i got a friend online named ish of arabia you've had him on uh yeah uh yeah he had dreams as well he ignored he said he ignored them for several years but that that should tell you something right there that sometimes people get what they need to convert and they still don't do it so it just it really speaks to what jesus says in the gospels that they had moses and the prophets they're still not going to believe if someone were to rise from the dead yeah but i mean think about if you tonight had a dream of mohammed proclaiming the truth to you and telling you to convert you wouldn't be like all right

no i you're you're exactly right but i would be like that is some serious evidence now i got to rethink that at least that was, the first time you had it, you'd be like, that was weird. So dreams alone aren't enough, but it might open you to the evidence of Christianity. It should. Yeah, it should. Absolutely should. And people keep having them. I've talked to ex-Muslim to say, yeah, I had that.

So God is doing something. Who's the most, if there is one, formidable Islamic debater out there right now? Man. Is there one that you're like, oh, no, I can't debate him. He's too good. Man, I want to debate them all. It's hard to think. Really?

I'll just say Muhammad Ajab so he agrees to debate me. Didn't you say he doesn't want you? What? Didn't you say he doesn't want to? Yeah, I don't think he wants to. Muhammad Ajab, is his name? Yeah. I'd love to host a debate between him and you, if you want to.

I know. I would do it, yeah, on a heartbeat. You do it on Islam is true, which is true, Islam or Christianity. I don't think he'll do it, though. But yeah, I would debate him. Of the Muslims I have debated, I'm trying to think who was actually a challenge. Man, I can't.

And you're not being cocky. You just think they, it's not, is it that you're so good or is it that they're so bad and you're good? I think it's just, they're just so bad at it. I mean, I debated Alex O'Connor. He's an atheist. Tough debater. So, I mean, I can, I know when I'm debating someone who knows what he's doing. But in terms of less like people, it's hard for me to say, because every Muslim I debated, it's a face palm after a face palm.

So yeah. And do you chat with Muslims off to these debates? Sometimes, sometimes, no. My guy, I crushed you. Yeah, sometimes they'll admit it. But then they'll never, never on camera, I guess you could say. But yeah, I don't know. It's hard to think right now because I've not debated as many Muslims as I want to

because a lot of them turn me down or give me some lame excuse or, you know. I gave a big list of Muslims to debate in the UK to, some podcasts over there for when I go. And I heard from them back. And they're like, we're having a hard time getting any of them agree to agree. Do you think they're profitable? Debates. Oh, absolutely.

Yeah. People, people, the reason why debates are profitable is because you get to talk to an audience you're not normally going to get to talk to. When I debated an atheist in 2017, there was people who watched that debate that were atheists and they're Christian now. And that was their first introduction to my own ministry and my work. And so, yeah, absolutely. That's why I keep doing them because you get to talk to people that are going to watch for the other person and some of them you want to shake.

You want to get them to realize, okay, maybe that guy actually has something and I should consider it. Well, especially if you have the impression that your religion is the dominant, advancing, aggressive, right, religion, bringing Christians into submission. Right. Like if that's how you think Islam should work and then you watch a debate where you or these other fellas school, your guy, that can't be, that's got to be embarrassing. Oh, yeah, absolutely, yeah. Because I've heard from David that that's why he takes more of the aggressive approach. But us Christians are like, uh. Oh, he's right.

There's a reason we hold to what we call Judeo-Christian values. We don't call them Judeo-Christian Islamic. Why don't we do that if it's the other Abrahamic religion out there? Because their values are completely different to us. Whereas we, you know, having us good casual conversation might work better here in the West. To them, it's about projecting confidence, order, authority, power. And you show that, and that's going to be more appealing

to people coming from that background, that way of thinking. That's why you see them constantly thumping their chest for their audience. That's kind of their mentality. So you have to come in and sort of show, you can't come in and be like, hey, let's just have a nice little conversation. No, you've got to come in and be like, you're wrong, you're holding to a stupid relationship,

Here's the truth. Let me tell you why. Otherwise you're going to go to hell. Trent Horn released a video yesterday where he praised you if you're debating tactics. I don't know if you saw it or not. I did. Yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah. Well, his point was attacking ideas, attacking stupid faiths like Mormonism or Islam or modern day Judaism. I'm all for that as well. But to attack people like as he says, a 12-year-old screaming into the Xbox headset is. Not at all what we're cool to do. Yeah, so we got to do you got to you got to learn how to do it Yeah, yeah, you know, you can't be like the 12 year old screaming, but you also have to You also have to still sort of project that yeah, yeah, well, I think it's that it's kind of like Authority, right? Like the man who has authority and knows he has it, he doesn't get worked up exactly and he can speak forcefully, but he doesn't kind of get shrill. Mm-hmm. It's like the times in my own

life when I've got shrill or have acted out of emotion, even when that emotion was like anger, it's precisely because I don't think I have authority or am I afraid I don't have the authority I wish I had. And so I think that's right. I mean, you just look at those old William Lane Craig debates. The way he would turn Hitchens into a pretzel, just so calm. And he's like, I know exactly what I'm saying and I know exactly what you don't know. And I'm going to show you. Exactly. Yeah. God bless Craig. Hey. I mean, I mean, I know it's like a human thing to follow someone for a while until you kind of get over him and then you start getting critical of them. But he did so much for Christian apologics. Oh, absolutely. So all of us guys were listening to him. He showed us that you can actually do this and do it well. You can get up there and do those debates and you can stand against these new atheists and we can take them down. And then we've sort of carried that same confidence over and do the Islamic apologetic battle. And so he's sort of like he set the, he gave us the roadmap. to follow.

Yeah, well, let's talk about atheism for a little bit, since this is kind of how you cut your teeth as an apologist. Were you an atheist growing up? No. I went through a period where I was kind of like a deist maybe. Yeah. But I mean, like atheism never made sense to me. There's got to be a creator, I guess.

It's weird, isn't it, how public opinion influences people, and by people I mean me. You just think of the different waves of isms that roll through culture. and make them seem maybe okay. You know how they say people usually vote the way their neighbors vote? I mean, you see why that's the case. I mean, gay marriage thing, the LGBTQ stuff. Like right now for many people, they go, whoa, that seems insane. Or like, whoa, two dudes getting married.

Well, how is that ever a thing? Right. But if you lived during those decisions, man, the pressure was so strong. I remember seeing adverts like, don't be on the wrong side of history. I don't want to be. I don't want to, I want to be on the in crowd, you know. And then the new atheism thing. That was just so pervasive.

I don't know if a lot of younger people appreciate how pervasive that was. You just felt like an idiot. Dawkins was telling us outright that we were abusing our children if we taught them about Christianity. And who the hell wants to be an abuser of children? And again, when that stuff's in the air, it can, unless you're intelligent, Like, there are people, like, I'm sure, like yourself or other people I've had on the show, like, Dr. Ed Faser, you know, like, who was a philosopher. So when, like, the new atheist came in, he's like, he actually said that Dawkins wouldn't know metaphysics from metamusel. And he said that during the height of it, you know, and it's just, anyway, it's, it's bizarre.

But here's my point. It feels like the fog of the new atheism has rolled on by. And I'm looking around the landscape. And I see, you know, thoughtful. intelligent people who have what feel like or seem to be coherent, compelling even, arguments against the existence of God and Christianity. But they're not blowhards. They see, I don't know, there probably are there probably are there? I don't know, but the popular ones seem like they're nuanced and thoughtful and careful in a way that the new atheists weren't. So is it simply

that the new atheists overplayed their hand and we all eventually saw it? Or if not, what is responsible for this resurgence of Christianity in the face of what seems to be a retreating atheism in culture. I think it's that they promised paradise and delivered nothing. I mean, they had promised as if we just all became atheists, we'd enter an age of science and reason and leave superstition behind and it would all be great and wonderful. And that doesn't work for humans. They never replaced Christianity with anything to like build culture, to build. society to build, you know, groups and friendship circles. Because we go to church every week.

We go to Bible study once a week in a lot of churches. You build culture. Atheism didn't offer that. It's basically just offered people a hammer to walk around and hit everyone else's worldview. It's just fun. It could be fun for a while. Which is why people did it.

Eventually your arm gets tired and you're like, well, now what do I do? I mean, think about, though, what atheism really offers the average person? If you're a academic professor, if you're a media spokesperson, if you're the influencer, you have purpose and meaning. What does the stock boy have an atheism? What is- Trolling. He gets to go online and say snarky things to stupid Christians and get thumbs up on his comment. If he gets a couple, yeah, he's lucky.

Like what does the average Joe get from this? Nothing. He gets hedonism. Yeah, there you go. He gets, there's something. Watch your porn, play your video games, get in your fights, and then go. home and die in a couple years. Humans were not made to live like that.

We get really depressed after a while. Sure, you can be angry and enjoy the pleasure for a little while, but eventually you're like, what's all this for? So atheism doesn't offer the average man anything. Whereas Christianity, you know, tell them that, you know, the creator of the universe died for you. And he's going... Has a plan for your life.

Plan for your life. Your suffering means something. It's redemptive. It's making you a better, deeper, human being. Yeah. I think all these... All will be made well. Well, sorry.

Yeah. I think all these young people raised by secular parents are asking that. What are we here for? And that's why a lot of them are gravitating towards Catholicism or orthodoxy or even high church Protestants. Yeah. Shout out to redeem Zumer. Like, you get that kind of stuff. So what I think is happening.

And so people are like, these young people are like, I need something firm to hold on to. And they're going to the ancient traditions of Christianity because they want something that is real. I think that's right. I think that's a good assessment of how things are. Nothing was ushered in. And it was like, you will be more rational. Also, men need tampons in certain instances. You're like, I don't know what happened.

Well, even some of the new atheists were like, that's not what we meant. Like, you went too far. Well, what's funny is as atheism was beginning to morph into what the dictionary would call a religion, you know, like, okay, so we have a set of beliefs. And these set of beliefs pertain to things like the afterlife, the existence of God. how human beings should live, but it's not a religion. You're like, okay, but it feels like a religion. Also, we should meet in groups, right? They even had atheist church.

Do you remember they were trying that? He tried it. Didn't work, yeah. That's really funny. And so what would have happened, man, imagine it. And then what happened, I guess, was even though they weren't able to usher anything in, there was enough of a thing that had ushered in that then started to splinter, right? Yeah.

Who's that Matt Dillahunty who married that dude who thought he was a woman or something? Oh, yeah, I know, Matt, yeah. He has me block now. Bless Matt. Gosh, this is why the opinions of the world are sand. They are nothing. They are dust. Because there was a time where Matt Dillahunty seemed like the smartest guy in the room.

Really? No, I take that back. I'm not saying he's an idiot. No, he's definitely not an idiot, but he would swing a punch and you didn't want to get in the way of it. But then the more debates he did, the more everyone was like, hang on, all he's saying is I'm not convinced. Exactly. He sounds aggressive, but... And when I debated him, you know, I responded with...

What did you say when he said? I don't care. That's good. I don't care if you're convinced. I'm right. You know? Oh, I got to watch that debate. I forgot that you debated him.

I debated him twice, yeah. I just remember Andrew Wilson. Yeah. Ripping him, as we say, in Australia. A new a-hole. That's an Australian saying. In Matt... It's disgusting.

I'd like to apologize to everybody. But that is... But, I mean, Matt Dillahunt. I mean, he rage quitted. Yeah. And if he would have just stay there and had the conversation, 10% of the people that would have. The fact that he raids quit made more people watch that. That's right.

He should have just did the conversation, dealt with the minor backlash from whatever happened in it, and then just went on with his life. And that would never have blown up. You got to be careful with that kind of stuff. Yeah. That's insane. But yeah. You ever rage quit anything? No, not that I remember.

Have I done that? I don't know. I would, it's always better to just sit there, go through it, whatever. I mean, I'm open to rage quitting. I just don't know if I've done it. I may have. I just, have I got up and left? And I don't think so.

But see, I've always said from the get-go that I'm not good at debates. Right. Because I'm not smart enough to think on my feet. That's not a, so I know that sounds self-deprecating. And it's not meant to be. I don't think I'm stupid. I just, I'm not good at thinking on my feet. And I'm not good in high pressure, high-intensity.

situations, you know? So I'm happy to have like a publicized debate with like Batuzi back when he was Protestant, right? Because like I trust him and we're actually trying, but I'm not good at that. So anyway, maybe that's why I've never stormed off because I've never been in a situation where I needed it. You know, you got to be careful. Like don't, don't ever do that. You rage quit. You're going to make your opponent famous. Who is the guy that got so and so to rage quit, you know? Yeah. I hope someone in rage quits debating me, but. Yeah. Yeah, well, maybe we could pay him. Or maybe you'll get an offer from a Muslim about how to, if you rage for this.

Yeah. Oh, I thought of a Muslim that I, I think the best Muslim debate was a guy named Suleiman Ahmed. He's quick on his feet. I'll give him that. He didn't know what a genetic fallacy was. So he said Iran is not executing people that apostasized from Islam. So not the brightest guy, but definitely quick on his feet. Rhetorical.

He had some good rhetorical skills, but yeah. Yeah. I mean, what's your opinion of the state of modern debates? Because it's almost like, I don't know, I feel like a lot of debates that take place. I'm not saying there's no value to the whatever podcast debates, but a lot of those things just feel like train wrecks on purpose. They are to be, yeah. Right? They're on purpose.

Like, let's make this the most disgusting down in the dirt, down in the mud, debate we can because that's what people want. Like, they don't want the old William and Craig debates where everyone had a lot of time and could have the time to. Lay out their position, you know. Well, here's my take. I think they've become performative in a lot of ways. Like, people like could just sort of go root for their own team. Yeah. And you're like, that's not what a debate is for.

But on the flip side. Okay. Yeah. In defense of dirty debates. Listen, people need performances. If they're not going to watch a debate, they're going to go watch a football match. Yeah. They're going to go watch hockey.

So if they're watching me debate someone and it's performative in some way, at least they might be learning something in the process. You have this stoic demeanor where like that fellow you debated who sounded like a prosperity preacher who was Muslim. Assange Sibli. Who I honestly think advice to him if he's willing to take it, you seem like a nice person. But the way you speak, it's like it's too performative. He would just speak normally. I think you seem great because there was a few times he would speak normally.

I thought he sounds like a lovely fellow like I'd listen to him. But when he would talk like this, I'm like, what are you doing? Anyway, you've got like this death stare, like this death psychotic, no offense to David Wood, stare at your opponent where I wouldn't debate you about my middle name, dude. Yeah. It's my poker face, I guess. I don't know. Do you ever get rattled before or during a debate? I don't, I don't know.

I'm trying to think. I mean, I've done so many debates. I mean, when I was debating Daniel Kigachoo on child marriage, I was trying so hard not to lose my call because I study my opponents. before I debate him. Yeah. Figure out what makes them tick. Oh, yeah? And I studied Daniel,

and he likes to set people off. He likes to, because he uses, and he's really good at using it against his opponent. So I was like, I got to be stoic poker face the whole time.

Yeah. I'm gonna try to set me off. Which is hard when you're trying to tell someone out to children. And he's, during the debate, I got him to admit that in Islam it would be okay

to have sex with a three-year-old and then a girl as young as 11 months in Islam. And then he also admitted that, yes, in Islam, it'd be perfectly fine for him to take a seven-year-old as a sex slave. So, and I'm like hearing all this and I'm like, how do I not jump over and choke the guy? Like, and I just kept thinking, oh, judgment day is coming.

That's when you pull a trindoity. I will box you. Maybe in that situation, it's okay. Maybe. I would allow that. But I'm just thinking like, God, I hope he converts to Christianity and repents of this or judgment day, I will be there. I'm just because he's a white fella

Is he another one of these white? He's Persian Oh okay But is he American? Was he raised in America? Was he raised Muslim though? That's my point He says he was raised like secular Shia

I remember And he converted like hardcore traditional Sunni You know But I mean like It's evil no matter what I mean You know It's Islam is just not a religion

compatible with the West They are coming Here to conquer To spread their world And if they take over you would see things like child marriage, you'd see things like polygamy. I even will go so far as to see

you'd see some form of slavery come back. They won't call it slavery, but it would be. Sure, it's funny. If secularism takes over, I think you'll see the same thing. That's because secularism doesn't have the birth rates. To like, when people become secular, they have almost no children.

So they don't pass on their culture to anybody. This is the biggest problem of secularism that does that. The good news is that... No, but I mean what you would see, like if hedonistic secularism takes over, which it seems to be doing a good job of, I think you'd see pedophilia mainstreamed.

Oh, yeah. For sure you would. For sure. Yeah, all sorts of perversions. I think you'd see some secularist pushback because Christianity, the way is so imbued in the way people think, that even there's many secularists

that are like, no, none of that. But just to be a little optimistic. Okay. Let's give it a shot. Go on. Think about that, though, that even the secularist can't get away from their Christian ethics

and the way they think. This is what I just, I just think Christianity is going to keep growing. Yeah, we have setbacks. We go through like these cycles where we have a little setback, but then we grow. We have revivals.

We have these great awakenings. I think, we're just going through one of those cycles again. I think God knows what he's doing. So, you know, I'm a little optimistic. Good, that's nice. I need a bit of that. I'm optimistic as long as we do our work.

Yeah. You know, I remember in go to Acts, Paul on the ship. The angel shows up and says, everyone's going to live. Did Paul sit back and go, great. No, he went up and told the ship capped him. When people were trying to get over the side, he's like, unless those people stay in the boat, you know, you will not live.

So he knows he's going to get through it all, but he still goes out in acts and does what his part to get through it all. We just got to do that. So I'm optimistic, but we still got to get our hands dirty. Get to work. All right. Talk to me about the state of atheistic apologetics and the apparent Christian revival

that we may be seeing or may wish to be seeing, I can't tell. Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of atheists have sort of given up on that. They've realized that they can't build a culture that can compete with Christianity. I had a guy on my YouTube channel about a year.

I can't remember his name. He's Jewish, atheist, and gay. And he works for the Brookings Institute. I'm trying to remember his name. He wrote a book. It's, um, He wrote a really good book where he just said, look, listen, we need a Christian culture. Yeah, even Dawkins came out and said something like that, didn't he?

He's culturally Christian. Yeah, we need more Christian. Right, as he gutted it out and then turned around and went, no, but I actually like the culture. I don't like what's happening now. Like, well, thanks, dude, because you're kind of responsible for what happened. Yeah, the name of his book was cross purposes. Okay. I can't remember his name.

I apologize, but he was super nice, super great guy. But he's basically saying, I've thrown the towel in a secular culture. We can't build it. We need Christians to be. actual Christians and build a good culture because they gave us the West, they gave us the United States, and I don't want to see this go away. This is a gay Jewish atheist saying the stuff. That should make you, so I think that's happened to a lot of the atheists. They sort of realize, all right, we were kind of bringing in too many Muslims. We don't want, we don't want Sharia law.

It was kind of good with what Christianity gave us. We want this. So they've kind of backed down. And a lot of young people are seeing that and they're going to church. When I was in Nashville last, Apostate prophet took me to a church with him, the Greek Orthodox church, great time. I love going to those churches. I can either confirm nor deny if I go to them regularly, if you know what I mean.

But I was just so happy to see so many young men there. I mean, their entire pews was just young men there. I am hoping the young women show first. Maybe it's a, maybe God's repeating a cycle. Adam was formed first, then Eve. So hopefully the women coming soon. because I just like, I think a lot of these young people are like, they've grown up with secular parents,

they've grown up in a secular culture, and they're like, what is all this for? Atheism offers us nothing. This can't all be all itsism. I just can't live as this guy that works at McDonald's or this guy that works at Chick-fil-A or something. There's got to be more, and Christianity actually does that.

It gives you a reason to live and a reason to build a better world. You know, I mean, like some historians of science will talk about how Christianity really gave us a culture of progress. You know, the ancients, they looked at time backwards. So like we say,

the future is before us. The ancients said the opposite. They said the past is before us. They would say that kind of stuff because to them, you can actually see the past. You can't see the future. Right.

But when Christianity comes on the scene, it gives us a culture of progress. Jesus is going to come back. We're marching towards that. Let's build a better world until he gets here kind of thing. And so really the way it's hard to think about

but take a look at a book by like Sacha Stern called Time and Process in Ancient Judaism. I did a video on it a while back but yeah the way they thought about time was so different than the way we think about time. We're all excited about the future. We're marching forward. The ancients were like we're moving further away from the ideal

past and our great kings it's just going to get worse. So I mean like the way we think even about time comes from our Christian background. What do you think of the resurrection of Jesus Christ being an argument for the existence of God and Christianity. Do you think it's strong enough or do you think Christians just wish it was that strong?

It's absolutely strong. Here's the way I sort of present it. So the way historians wrestle about this is a huge conundrum of history. Jesus was crucified in 33 AD. A couple months later, his followers are proclaiming he rose from the dead. This proves he's the Messiah. It proves he's the son of God. How do you get there?

This is what secular non-Christian historians wrestle with. How do you go from a guy being crucified to his followers proclaiming he's the Messiah? And even skeptics converting like Paul and James, they scratch their heads and like, okay, they come up with these really convoluted theories to explain all the data. And when you go through all the data,

the best explanation of all the available data is that Jesus rose from the dead. So think about it. So the disciples were proclaiming he rose from the dead. Our earliest reports, like the Crete of First, 1 Corinthians 15 say Jesus appeared to multiple people, including groups. He appeared to Paul, who was a skeptic. He appeared to James, who was a skeptic, not a believer during Jesus' life.

So you have Jesus appearing to groups, okay, like the disciples. Okay, well, group hallucinations don't happen. Even Paula Fredrickson will be like, they must have seen something, but I'm not going to say what it was, but they saw something that convinced them Jesus rose. This is a non-Christian saying this. So. She's a Jew, isn't she? Pola, you said?

Yeah, she's a Jewish convert, yeah. But to Christianity? No, to Judaism. Okay. But then even like, you know, and like atheists, like Gurd Ludamon will say, this creed was formulated within two years of the crucifixion. So very early on,

they believe Jesus physically rose. Then you have to deal with the fact that the tomb was discovered by women, okay, three days later. Okay, in the ancient world, they would never make up a story like that because no one believed the testimony of women. They were very sexist, unlike today,

you know, in comparison. I mean, people think, were sexists. Go back to the ancient world it's a thousand times, you know. But so you have this story in all four gospels

that women discovered this empty tomb three days later. Yeah. You would never make up a story like that. You'd have Peter and Paul maybe. Well, Peter rather, don't pull yet. Yeah, well, what's what we see in later apocryphal gospels, like the gospel of Peter?

It's like everyone's there to see it. Yeah. So you have that kind of stuff. Then you have, again, you have skeptics converting. Like, if you were like, well, they hallucinated Jesus because they were grieving him. Well, Paul wasn't. What was going on with him?

Yeah. You know, so start to, here's the thing. When you bring all this data up to skeptics, they get very magical in how they come up with, well, maybe this happened to Paul, or maybe this happened to the disciples, or maybe they invented the story of the women discovering the empty tomb this way or that way or something.

You make a theory that is so ad hoc, it is itself a miracle. You're positing group hallucinations, hallucinations that convince skeptics. And by the way, when people have hallucinations, Like, if a dead one who died, they don't think, oh, he rose from the dead. They think his spirit came in the room and I felt his presence and he's in heaven, that kind of thing. You don't think he physically got out of the grave.

So they'd have experiences so vivid, so real. They were convinced a body rose from the grave. Okay. That doesn't happen from hallucinations. So that also happened to skeptics. It happened to groups. Yeah. Then you have other aspects like, no Jew at the time was expecting.

a Messiah to rise from the dead. That's just the resurrection was supposed to happen at the end of time. The Messiah was supposed to be a conquering war warlord, basically. So now you have a belief, the Christian belief, which is unlike the culture, so it's not like it just came out of that culture. No one was saying the Messiah

was going to die and rise. Like they were expecting it to happen. So you have something unlike the cultural background, have these weird facts you've got to explain away. At the end of the day, what is the simplest explanation, the most parsimony? Jesus rose from the dead.

Anything you're going to compete with that is going to itself become a miracle because you have to posit all these convoluted once in a lifetime, once in a several generation things to happen and they all just happen at the right time. And that's the difference between Christianity and other religions. We have the resurrection argument.

Again, with other religions, it's one guy got revelations and you just got to trust him basically. I think what's difficult for the Christian is it's a lot easier to tear down an argument or pick it apart than to build it. It is. I mean, if you were to ask me, what am I most certain of?

You know, I might say my own existence or something. And then Hume and Nietzsche come along and say, I can't know the self. Anyway, but if I said something else, like, I would say, oh, my producer Maria exists. That's what I think. Yeah. You could pick that apart. You could 100% do that, right? Do it.

Like, she was a dream. She was a vision. Or you thought you were seeing her. Or she actually, I didn't see her. Like, why, you know, it's actually kind of. of easy to pull apart. Do you think that's part of why it was so difficult for Christians to argue with atheists is because here we are trying to build up this thing and all they got to do is go. It's much easier to take a hammer to a statue than it is to build the statue. And that's all new atheism does.

It's just they have a hammer and they go around smashing everyone else's statue, which is an analogy for worldview. That's all they do. So I mean, yeah, that's the problem. It's hard to build up a good worldview like it is to make a statue. Yeah. It's easy to knock something over. You just sit there and say, I'm a skeptic and I'm not convinced, so convince me. Yes, yes, yes. No.

I'm going to, and that's why when I debate atheists, I'm going to go, I'm going to present the best explanation of the data. If I'm going to debate God's existence, okay, what gave rise to the universe? I'm going to say the best explanation would be a conscious agent. What gave rise to objective moral values?

The best explanation is a mind, an objective, necessary mind. What gave rise to consciousness? I'd say it's a necessary source of consciousness. I can present all of that and say, well, look, I can explain all this data with one explanation. God exists. Your turn. Offer something better.

Yeah. If you can't, then I have the best explanation. And until you offer something better, I am justified in believing this as the best explanation. You're free to believe in whatever you want. You can have your faith in whatever. Yeah. I'm going to believe in what the evidence is showing me. I think this is why there was a redefinition of atheism over the last 20-so years.

Because it seems, okay, if you ask the question, does God exist? There seems to be three basic answers to that question. Yes, no, or maybe. Therefore, it seems that it be most appropriate to have three terms that would then be attributed to the possesses of each view. You know, theism, atheism, agnosticism. The agnostic has nothing to defend because he holds no view. Right. And that's why in those debates with William and Craig, to circle back to that, they would

get pretty upset when he would try to go present something. Like, give me your reason for thinking God God doesn't exist. And they would always say the same thing. No, no, no, no, no. An atheist isn't someone who affirms the non-existence of God. Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's, it's. But if atheism can just mean agnosticism, then it's very easy to win because it gets to smash down things and have nothing to defend. Right. And I always say, I give an analogy sometimes. Like, okay, so if my arguments for God's existence are like a boat, get us across the river, like, let's get in the boat. All the atheists is doing is saying, well, there's a hole there. I don't trust that one plank of wood. And I'm like, oh, do you have a better option? Oh, no, you don't.

Great. I'm going to get in my boat. Until you come up with a better option, this is the option I'm taking. Sure, it's not the, it's not perfect. I don't have the best arguments ever. I'm sure, you know. That's good, yeah. So, but I mean, it's still the best explanation right now. I do the same thing with, like, quantum mechanics. We need to replace quantum mechanics with. Oh, you don't have a better explanation? Well, that's why the scientific community he believes in quantum mechanics. The same applies to God's existence. All the data points to God existing.

You've not replaced all of this data with a better explanation that it can account for all of it, consciousness, morality, fine-tuning, the contingency of the universe. All that can be explained with one thing, God. Yeah, and then the genetic fallacy, right, can often be applied to people like us. But there is something to be said about, well, my choices are there being a world that has meaning and life after death and purpose

or none of that. So yeah, like I'll bite the bullet and admit that I am, I would like to, I would like to think that my life has purpose and that there is something good or waiting me after death. So yes, you're right. Congratulations. That is part of what I'm factoring in here. But again, there's still this plank and even if it's not perfect, it's something. So why would I, what are you asking me to do exactly yes just just just believe uh just believe in nothing give up and just live a hedonistic life for another 40 years i mean like but then again there's as you know the genetic fallacy cuts both ways it's like well i can come up with reasons why you want to believe that well yeah of course you can absolutely i mean it's as john milton said when

he puts these words in the satan's mouth it's better to rain in hell than serve in heaven some people actually think that way sure i don't have to sure there's no meaning in purpose in my worldview, but at least I get to reign there in this chaos of misery versus serving your God in your worldview. It's, wow, that sounds miserable, but that's the way some people think. They'd rather die on their empire of dirt than ever bow to need of Jesus. What would your advice be to someone who says, listen, Mike, I really want to believe in God, but I'm looking at the arguments for and against and for the life of me.

I can't decide and I feel paralyzed. And I also think that whatever conclusion I might arrive at, there's someone out there who could argue me under the table. So I don't feel safe to actually commit to anything. But I want to, believe me, I want it, but I just, I can't. So I've got got up on the chalkboard and he's been there for years. What do I do? Yeah, so I did, I talked about this in a video I did on secularism a while back.

I said, first thing you should do is go to church. just start going listen you don't have you don't make yourself perfect and then go to church that's that's the exact opposite of what we're called to do in Christianity like just start going like remember remember the man that brought

his son to Jesus that needed that was demon possessed and he said lord I believe help my unbelief that sounds exactly like these people I want to believe but I can't okay then just go we're saved by grace through faith is the point in saying that that like okay if God doesn't exist you can do come. Yeah, like, love to have you. Do you think Jesus is going to like reject someone because

they're down here and they're saying like, I believe, I really want to, you believe you exist, but I can't. Okay. Just start going through the motions then. Like, go to, what if I'm wrong, they'll say. Okay, then, then you die and you rot in the grave because there is no God. I mean, like, do you really want to live your life by the motto, what if I'm wrong and never actually believe in anything? Do you want to live like a scaredy cat? Because that's what that is. you're going to live like a paranoid cat afraid to go here, afraid to go there. Eventually sometimes you just got to go

into the nice old lady's house and go actually the cushions are kind of nice in here that's what it's like coming into Christianity. You can either live in constant fear and worry and anxiety or you can go okay I will try this and I will see if I find community if I find something here

if I find hope, purpose and meaning. So just start going to church give your life to Christ even if you don't know he exists. Just do it. Like what is holding you back? absolute certainty, you're never going to have that anyway. So you're not, we're not asking you to give anything up.

We're offering you eternity if this turns out to be right. That's just, you know, layman's understanding of Pascal's wager. That's right. And someone will say, but I'm afraid of being a hypocrite. How are you a hypocrite? Well, I'm afraid of saying I believe something I don't believe. And I'm afraid of being mercenary. Like I'm afraid of only believing in Jesus so I escape hell.

That doesn't seem like a very righteous, virtuous thing to do. So I wouldn't commit to it until I can be quite convinced. Well, I mean, you're not actually saying that. You're not saying I'm doing this because I'm afraid of hell. You're saying you want this to be the worldview that is true. You're saying this is what I really do want. So I would like this to be better. What's wrong with that?

Like, you're not, no one's asking you to lie. No one's saying come to Christianity and also say, yes, you completely believe God exists. If you're still stuck in that mentality, just come in. Anyway, like, you really think Jesus is going to reject somebody who says, I can't believe in God. I wish God exists, but God, if you're out there, please save me. Please be who you say you are in the gospel. No, I don't think God is going to reject anyone in that situation. And again, what did the man say that came to Jesus?

Lord, I believe, help my unbelief. I think if atheists prayed that, Lord, I believe, help my unbelief. And they started going to church. They got baptized. they started partaking of the Eucharist, I think they're in. We're not saved by our own works. We're saved by what he did for us.

And I think we need to remember that. So he's going to bring anyone he wants to the Father. So if you want to be one of those people, just be there. And then, yeah, you may not believe right away, but Jesus is not going to condemn you because you didn't have the right theology. Could you imagine if that was the case?

I'd be bugged. We'd be screwed. Everyone would be screwed because we all have, like, what? Variations, you know. Yeah. Yeah. We're not going to get to heaven and Jesus is going to be like, well, you know, you were Calvinist or you were Armenian. You didn't read this one document from the 14th century. No, you're kind of off. The original language in which it was written. Yeah. So if that's the case for us that do believe God exists, why can't that be someone who is an atheist but wants to be a Christian?

Yeah. What do you say about the argument of, you know, the non-believer who wants to believe in God, but God, he just can't? I mean, I heard Alex O'Connor talk to Father Gregory Pine about this in a recent back and forth. There are atheists who claim that they want to believe in God, but they just can't. And so this is somehow an argument against God's existence because if God does exist and wants them to be saved, he would need to make his existence plain enough to them so that they could go ahead and believe. The fact that he hasn't done that is an argument from the hiddenness of God, which I think would be like a subset of the problem of evil. Yeah.

Feel free to state that better than I just did because I think it's important that we steal me in the argument. Yeah, it's called non-resistant non-believers. They say they are non-believers, but if they got enough evidence, they would believe. My first response is, you don't actually know that.

People often will say, you know, we'll watch a movie and they'd be like, if I was in the movie, I would do X, Y, and Z and do this. Like, that's what we often do. We're great Monday. Totally. Great Monday morning quarterbacks. If I lived in Nazi Germany,

I would have resisted Hitler. Exactly. We all think that about ourselves. And then we get in situations. Like you see young men go off to war and they're cowering as the bullets are flying. And, you know, I get it. But stop pretending you know your entire psychology. Okay.

Like people spend years in therapy trying to understand their own psychology and learning stuff about themselves I never knew. You might be surprised. So when people say that, okay, you're saying that, but I don't know if that's true. I don't even know if you know that's true. So we got to first think about it. Hang on. Okay, let me push back because can't this be the case? Can't it be true that say you're God, you want me to believe in you,

then isn't the onus on you to make your existence at least obvious to me? Maybe I'll reject you. But if you haven't made it plain to me, I don't even have that choice to begin with. So we have to remember that God's moral obligations are going to be different for him. So maybe he does know that, but he also sees all possible futures. Maybe if he knows he gives you some evidence of some sort, you're going to reject him, but it's also going to make your life worse, or it's going to make you a worse person. Like, let's say there's some atheist out there and God gives him evidence,

and he doesn't convert to Christianity. Instead, he becomes a prosperity preacher and does all sorts of horrible things. Well, maybe it's better that God doesn't actually give evidence to him because he's not actually going to become a real Christian. just going to become a swindler, a snake oil salesman, and use it to take advantage of people. We have to remember God is omniscient. He knows all these possible futures.

He knows when it's right to put in evidence. Maybe God also knows if I convert that guy now, he's just going to be a Christian and live in France or something. But if I wait 14 years, he's going to open an orphanage in Africa. So God knows all those possible futures. He knows what he's doing. He knows, hey, maybe if I do actually try to convert this atheist, It's not actually to convert him, but it is going to turn him into some radical, you know, prosperity preacher or radical Satanus or something bad.

So, no, the onus is, this doesn't make God guilty of something because, again, we don't have the knowledge he would have in this kind of situation to know that kind of stuff. But God's under no obligation to make his existence apparent to somebody, you're saying. Yeah, but I also agree. Overwhelmingly apparent. Overwhelmingly apparent. I think there's plenty of evidence there. I think Pascal said it. There's enough evidence there for anybody who wants to be convinced.

and enough that's not going to be forced upon us. It is interesting when you look in the book of Exodus and you've got the Red Sea parting and pillars of fire. We'll think about that. And yet people have rejected him, yeah. Well, yeah, think about that. I mean, like, God made himself obvious to the Israelites. And what do they do?

They demanded quail. They demanded to go back to Egypt. So, I mean, we have this idea that if they just got more evidence, they'd be convinced. But Jesus says in the parable of the rich man in Lazarus, no, that's not going to work. So here's my challenge to those who are watching right now. who might be skeptics or atheists or just seekers, pray that prayer.

Like right now, pause this video and pray that prayer and tell us that you prayed it in the comment section. Lord, I believe help my unbelief. And what could that mean? That means something different to different people. It might be, I believe that there's something, but I don't believe that you're it. Or, I don't know. I believe that I want to believe, but I don't know how to reveal yourself to me in a way that

I would understand. Pray that prayer. Yeah. I prayed that prayer. When I was 17, I came home so happy from Rome. I don't know if you know that story. I was obnoxiously happy. I became one of those people.

Dude, I was so on fire. That was good. Oh, man, I was so in love with Jesus. It was like everything became colorful and I didn't understand what was happening. And trying to explain that newfound faith to my friends was like trying to explain color to people who only knew black and white. That sounds maybe, I don't know how that sounds. Maybe that sounds like I think I'm better than them or something.

I hope that's not it. It just, I didn't know how to communicate it. I actually came home thinking, this is actually my thought process. This is bananas. This is how real it was to me. I really thought that all I would have to say to my friends is, I know. I thought it was just a story that people invented to be happy as well, but it's not. I really thought it was that apparent to me that I thought if I just say that, they'll come along with me.

Got a bit of a shock. It wasn't exactly what happened. Some people came along with me. but yeah, golly. Yeah. It's like Plato said, you know, people are in the cave looking at the shadows and you've come out to the light

and it's like, guys, there's really something out there and no one wants to turn around. Yeah. You know, we just gotta keep praying. But I mean, like, you know, God knows what he's doing. There's a reason he chose Jacob and not Esau. I mean, there's a reason that he acted in time

when he did. I mean, think about when he came in the flesh. It's actually the perfect time. 98, I think 95, 98% of people that have lived on this planet have lived after Jesus. He came when there was a universal language spreading around Rome, Greek, for example. They had built roads easy to move from place to place a lot more efficiently. Making evangelization more possible and easier. It's a perfect time for the gospel to start.

I mean, sometimes, you know, it's hard to see this stuff in the present, but when we look back at the past, we go, okay, now I just kind of see the plane unfolding. I see where it's going. Well, let's talk about the moral life and the prayer life. Are you able to talk a bit about that? Because, I mean, you're quite smart and intelligent. You talk abstractly about things very convincingly, but how is your own Christian journey going? I mean, I'm kind of, my brain has always been very analytical. Yeah.

I don't get too caught up in emotions. It's just the way I am, I guess. I think I'm pretty emotional. I feel like the Lord speak to me and I hear him and I'm moved by beauty a lot and I cry and prayer and things like that. But I also have that other side to me too, like yourself, where I get very analytical about things. Yeah, I was sitting with lunch with John McCrae of What Do You Mean?

David Wood. What a guy? Yeah. John from, What Do you mean? He's terrific. Yeah. Anyway, sorry. David Wood is a diagnosed psychopath.

So he has like no emotions. He was on my show telling me he doesn't know what guilt means. John McCray looked at me and says, you're like half psychopath. Yeah, I was going to say, you're like half. That's what I meant earlier when I said you're staring with that like, Yeah, you remind me of Trent. You have something like the Trent has.

There's something going on. Similar to Trent. That's cool. I'll take that as a compliment. No, it is a compliment. Yeah. Because Trent, in his book, answering atheism, talks about how jealous he has been in the past of people who have these profound experiences, like this profound heart experiences of God.

He said, the closest he's ever had is when he was at Getsenemy. No, Golgotha, where he put his hand on the rock that Christ apparently died near. He said he had something of an emotional experience then, but that's... That's very rare. Yeah. Is that like you? I guess so, yeah. The more older I get, the more I'm like that.

I think maybe when it was a teen, I had more emotions. But the older I get, the more, they just sort of fade into the background. I don't know. I think I'm slowly turning into my grandpa, who is so crumpy all the time. No, you've been the optimist in this conversation, so. Well, I'm just thinking of the data and the numbers. That keeps me optimistic, which sounds not true. But I mean, like, when I can see the numbers on the page, I'm like, okay, we'll be fine.

Yeah. You know, but I mean, I'm just, I don't know, I'm just very analytical. Show me the facts and I'll go to it. Like I've changed my views on stuff. Yeah? You know? Like what? Well, I used to hold to the exodus happened in the 15th century BC and then I released this huge documentary on it.

And then a week later I took it down because I talked to an Egyptologist. He's like, actually, he convinced me it's 13th century BC. That's where the data is. I got to follow it. So I worked for months on this documentary. Take it down. It's not true. pissed off a lot of people

don't care. It's not, that's, that's where the facts are. And I re-did it a year later with the 13th century date. Really? Yeah,

I think the last time you were on, you were about to release it for the first time, if memory serves. Maybe, maybe it was the second time. But memory often doesn't serve. So sure, maybe it was the second time.

So, yeah, yeah, it's, was, I mean, I've done that kind of stuff. I bulleted other videos and taken them down because someone contacted me and said, hey, this is wrong,

fix it. I'm like, oh, yeah, you're right. I will fix it. What would you like to see happen in Christian apologetics online? More. More of them. I want so many Christian apologists online that I'm out of business.

Yeah. I think there should be so many on there that there's just not enough donations to go around and I have to retire in stock shelves. What would you like to stop seeing among Christian apologists online? Fighting with each other. It's like, come on, I don't care about Protestants versus Catholics versus Orthodox versus, I mean, come. Is your point like Lewis, like have those conversations and have them vigorously, but realize that you have a public platform and everyone's watching and you do a disservice, something like that? Exactly. Yeah.

I'm not against interfaith back and forth because as a Catholic, I want everyone to be Catholic, obviously. Mm-hmm. And so I think there's a place for it. But I don't like seeing the nasty stuff. You know what, like Trent Horn says, like if St. Paul was around today, he's pretty sure that some of these people would have accuse him of being a tone policing feminist. Yeah. I want people to be, yeah, kind.

Kind to each other as they. Listen, there's a time to not be kind. There's a time to be kind. You gotta know how to do it right. A lot of people don't, unfortunately. But I'm just staying out of a lot of that. We have a bigger fight and we can get there. That's what I'm trying to do.

Like, honestly, I'm trying to stay out of the drama. The drama keeps trying to get me. I got these people come. I had this woman recently on Twitter. I won't even say her name because that's me being out of the drama. A while back's like, why are only like 13% of your most recent interviews women? What does that say? Just asking questions.

Yeah, it's ridiculous. We did a big, like, in 2019, a bunch of us apologists got together at a house in South Carolina. They just sort of like network and talk and do videos together. And then people were like, why are there no women there? Because it's a house of men. Yes. And also women are baking the cookies. So why would you expect them to be in?

two places at once. But that's sort of like sarcastic reply. It's unfortunate, but it seems like the best response at times because I know that that question isn't asked in good faith. I know I can see that you're pretending to ask it in good faith, but I don't believe you. They're not. No, they're just trying to stir up stuff. But I say out of that. I get attacked by other Christians sometimes and my response is going to be silence for probably nine times out of ten. Because I have more important work to do. I'm trying to build the church and it'd be a lot easier if we stop giving each other black eyes will we do that yeah listen we may not agree the catholics will fight the orthodox who will be orthodox catholic the protestants will fight as well if we stop that and we just focus on getting

people in we will do so much better and people will see that we're working together they'll be happier they'll realize there's something here can you just guys can you just stop for a minute five minutes work together like you know and then so i want to see more christian apologists online and i want to see them working together regardless of their background. And if we do that, some magical things will happen, some great things will happen. I was talking to Shane Smith recently, and he was talking about one of the pieces of advice he was given as a new comic. It's like, don't criticize other comics. And, you know, there's something to that. Like, I think of Jerry Seinfeld, whose interviews I like to watch. I find him really insightful and articulate about things. And

I don't ever hear him criticizing other comics. And that says a lot. It might be cool if we took just a little bit out of that. Yeah. Well, I mean, yeah, I'm trying right now to promote and build up other apologists. Yeah. Who's on the rise that you're excited about? There's a guy named Fearless Truth. His name is Nick.

It's Orthodox Christian, super smart. Yeah. A lot of good ex-Muslims. There's a guy, there's a Turkish ex-Muslim from Australia. His name is En's E-N-E-S. Okay. He's doing some good stuff. Ish of Arabia is doing some good stuff.

Great guy. Yeah. I mean, there's lots, lots of good TikTok. Talk stars growing up, a guy named Coley, it's growing. You got Theos Brooks as well on TikTok, so. You were telling me about a debate between God Logic and Jacob Hanson. You were there, how did that go? Man, God Logic is doing some great stuff.

He's new to the scene and he's growing like crazy. He's already, you know, gone viral, but he's one of our best debaters, if not our best debater. He's got the rhetorical edge on everybody, and he knows this stuff. The more he does, the more he learns. So he's just getting really good. All right. I got to watch him. You've convinced me. We were talking before the show aired, right, about watching that interview with, sorry, debate he did with Jacob. I've had Jacob on the show. I liked Jacob. But who got the better, who won? God Logic won. Because here's the thing. You're only saying that because you're a Christian. Listen, God Logic won because, A, he stayed on topic. Jacob went off and just tried to show the Trinity was illogical. That wasn't the debate. The debate was, does the Bible teach the Trinity? Okay. God logic stayed on topic.

He got, he went on rhetoric. I would think that is, does the Bible teach the Trinity in some ways could be more difficult to prove than is the Trinity logical? Not sure. Yeah, but God Logic did. He got Jacob to admit, yeah, there's, the Bible speaks of one God who's three persons in the cross-exam. He did not get Jacob to. Watch the debate and then watch when he does because you'll know what it happens. God logic gets up and walks off the stage.

Now, to be fair to Jacob, he didn't mean. that but the way it plays out it definitely looks like that because that's what I mean god logic is good with his rhetoric he knows how to get people where he wants to get him to say what he wants and then Jacob tried to rescue himself after but it didn't sound well and he's just playing with semantics and ambiguity and then again Jacob just kept trying to argue that trinity was illogical or that god logic didn't fully understand what the ecumenical councils taught which is fair but that's not the debate You can have those minor punches in a debate, but if you don't win the topic, I don't care.

Yeah. God Logic won the topic. God logic. God bless you. That's his name of his channel. God Logic, yeah. His name is Avery. God bless you, Avery, you beautiful bugger who I've never met or seen, but can't wait to watch

your debate tonight now that I've been told about it. Mm-hmm. It's great, yeah. Yeah. Good stuff, man. Yeah, it's definitely one to watch, I will tell you that. So, listen, you're prolific in your YouTube channel. But have you written a book?

Man, when I get the time, I will. Yeah? I would. Like you've probably written so many scripts that you could have someone throw it together in a book. I know. The way I think of it is like this is like, I'm trying to build the church, trying to get more people, Christian. Yeah. I can make a book, which maybe a thousand people are read.

That's a great point. The book has creed, right? Because it just, I don't know. It's got creed, but have I make a video? But if you can reach more people through a video that's well put together? Exactly. Do you remember that video? that Cameron Batuzi put together.

I think it was 10 hours of arguments. You know, for God's existence. God bless Cameron, what a good. Yeah, that's, I mean, so I'm like, yeah, I'd like to write a book. It gets you, gets you cred. But at the same time, I'm focusing on more important things right now than my own. What are you working on now? On legacy.

I'm still making videos. Working on a big, long series on the resurrection, making some more videos debunking Islam. Do you do, do you still do debates? You want, oh, yeah. Dude, come on this show. I'd love to host a debate with you. if you ever wanted. You have anyone?

Hey, just tell them. Right, tell the Muslims. Yeah. Muslims, come on this show. Yeah. This is a huge platform. I'm at a job, Ali Dawa. Come on, let's do it.

Do you prefer? Jake Uthman. Do you prefer in person or virtual? In person. I will prioritize. I don't like virtual debates a lot honestly because there's a delay and so you're always talking over each other more.

So if you're going to, if I'm going to do a debate, I'm in person. If it's virtual, I'm like, I'm not, I'll get to it when I get to it. I got other more important things. I see. Yeah, I guess as a listener though, right, I like the in the in-person debate. Do you remember, I don't know if you saw that debate between Trent Horn and Destiny

on the whatever podcast? That was wild on abortion. Man, Trent is very good at what he does. But I like that as a consumer because I'm not, I'm not getting distracted by the laughter and the claps and the applause. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. It's got to be a way to thread that needle where we have you in, maybe we can make this work, have you in studio, maybe we could have some people around just to have some kind of life to it?

Or do you think it would be just as good as if we had someone at the table doing the debate? Like when you say in person, I guess, are you talking about just two people at a table or are you talking about a crowd as well? Either or. It's, I like the crowd for sure. I guess if I had to pick, I'd want a crowd. Dude, let's stop doing it. Yeah. Maria, I hope you're listening right now.

Let's start. Yeah. Let's rent out a pub in Nashville. Okay, I'm in. I've done debates in pubs. One of my famous debates was the guy named Aaron Raw was in a pub in Fort Worth. Yeah, what does that debate society called? Because it's not, I saw that one debate you did. It has like the blue and white logo behind you. There's a big banner. Modern day debate. Yeah. But there's one they do in Texas. Yeah, it was like the Bible and beer. Yeah, that's the one. Yeah, that looks cool. Yeah, that was fun. Yeah. So yeah, I did a debate in a pub. It went really well. And that's a debate where someone watched that was an atheist or Christian today. That was their first step towards it. So that's why I'd like doing those, because you'll hopefully get people like that.

We're going to do it. And then what's your suggestion on how to make it produce both light and heat? Like, I appreciate your point. Like, people want performance, and that's performance isn't bad. No, it's not bad. But we want to be predominantly light. What's your suggestion on how to make that way? I mean, it really depends on the debaters.

You get the right people in there. You don't get somebody who's going to lose their temper, You get somebody who knows what they're doing. And, you know, I've done this for years. I've tried to become a better debater with every debate and try to not, I never want to be that guy that just becomes the 12-year-old that's going to rage quit on, you know, playing Halo Live.

So it depends on the people mostly. And, you know, which also good for debates is this. As you get them, you talk to them. You meet before, say, hey, you recognize they're a person across the table from you. So it's really good when you're debating someone. You meet with them before. You shake their hand.

You say, nice to meet you. Thank you for agreeing. Even if you had to have dinner the night before, that's even better. That's one of the things I kind of disappointed when debating Muslims is they, their religion says that they are to hate us. So there's not a lot of that. That's unfortunate. You know, like I'll see these guys, these Muslims show up for the debate and then they leave right after. They don't want to talk to you.

They don't want to be your friend. It's sad, really. It's really sad to see that. But that's just Islam. They are told that. The Quran says we are the worst of creatures. It says they are the best of people Allah has raised up. They are not there not to be friends or allies with us.

They are to be hated because we've rejected Allah as messenger. It's really, compare that with Christianity. Pray for your enemies. Love those who persecute. You pray for them. Which is more likely to come from God and which is more likely to come from Satan? Yes. I'll let that be a rhetorical question because I agree with where that was headed.

Yeah. Yeah, and isn't it true that Muslims are taught to lie to infidels? Takia. Tell us about that. It's a great Mexican gift. No, I'm kidding. No, it's, Takiya is like, yeah, so if you're in war with the infidel, you can lie to deceive them. Here's the problem.

A lot of Muslims point out that they are in a perpetual war with the non-Islamic world. Muslims divide everything in the two houses, the house of Islam and the house of war. If you're not under the rule of Islam, you're in the world. the house of war. Therefore, they can lie to us. They can do all sorts of things. And Muslims will kind of admit this occasionally. Sometimes it's like, no, no, that's only for like in battles and fighting as I'll try to downplay it. No, it's real. They will lie to us. Tell us what we want to hear to let us bring them into our culture. So you're saying that when you're in an interaction with a Muslim, they may have that as a tactic. Oh, they do. I see it all the time. I mean, you'll see a

Muslim debate and they'll be like, yeah, well, this philosopher said that and then you'll go check later and you're like, he said the exact opposite. Whoa. Yeah, you'll see that stuff all the time. It's really sad, but yeah, it's, man, it's, I mean, a lot of their top Muslim apologists are they're pathological liars. They will lie through their teeth about like, you name it anything about Muhammad and the stuff he did. And then we have to, we have to keep bringing up their own sources to show them what they actually teach. And so, yeah, it's part of Islam to lie, unfortunately. What's the motivation, right? Because as a Christian, if I get into an Uber with a Muslim, we start to talk, I hope that my motivation is that he would come to Christ and find salvation.

Right. What's the motivation for the Muslim? Is it the same thing? The ends justifies the means. And what's the end that they're going for? And they get you into Islam, and then Islam grows and gets a little bit more powerful. So Ali Dawa is a major Muslim apologist. He is admitted that, There was an argument that he was convinced for Islam. It's called the scientific miracles in the Quran, that the Quran contains knowledge that no one in the 7th century could know.

This is scientific miracles. I hear this. Embryology, etc. It's all a bunch of BS. Yeah. I mean, but he came out and said the scientific miracles argument has been debunked. But that's what convinced me

that Islam is true, he said. But he's staying in Islam now. So in his mind, a lie got him to believe in Islam. And that's okay. That's a good thing because he got him into Islam. Yeah. So to them, They can lie to us if we become Muslim because it will end justify the means.

They'll get us into Islam. So who cares? That's the exact opposite we have in Christianity. So would this Muslim encourage people to use the scientific argument to get people into Islam or not? I think he would. I hope I'm wrong, but I think he would. Like, because I've seen, he was on another podcast with other Muslims, like this guy named Sunny Fas, who's blocked me, won't debate me, who is bringing up scientific miracles. and no one was correcting them,

even though they knew it, they know it's debunk. But that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, if they can convince you to become a Muslim on a lie, that's a win for Islam. Could you imagine the same in Christianity? We'd be mortified, like, yeah,

someone invented a story about Jesus appearing to George Washington or something. You'd be like, wait, don't, that, that didn't happen. Well, he did appear to the Native Americans, didn't he? Yeah, sure. Oh, no, wait, sorry. No, no, no, that was, that was the American, Muhammad. Yeah. Let me ask a final question to wrap this up.

Tell me about why Joseph Smith could be thought of as the American Muhammad, if you even agree with that. Oh, man, think about it. I mean, both of them claimed they had an angel appear to them, and they were going to fix the world religions because they've gone astray. They have multiple wives, including a child bride. Joseph Smith had a child bride. Probably a 14-year-old. He had more wives than Muhammad. He was much more strong.

He had more wives than Muhammad. Muhammad? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I mean, Gavis followers, like certain laws, like can't have alcohol. I mean, you know, it's very similar in that, you know, okay, I'm the prophet. You should listen to me. I'm the greatest of these prophets. And I'm going to, I have my own scriptures you need to follow and believe in. Very, both Islam and Mormonism right there. So, I mean, yeah, there's differences, but there's also some just eerie similarities. It's like the same demon that choke Muhammad in the cave showed up to Joseph Smith years later or something. Let me ask a final question, right? So Lewis, drawing from the church fathers, Christ is either who he claims to be or a bad man, right? So Lord, liar or lunatic. And I guess demonically possessed, you could fit under lunatic maybe, I don't know.

But how would you, what would you say of Joseph Smith and Muhammad? Prophet, liar, or lunatic? Or is there a fourth option? I mean, a third option. I guess the third option could be their apocryphal, but... If I had to pick, it'd be a lunatic. Yeah. I mean, he... Lunatic for Muhammad?

Yeah. Yeah. I think he, I honestly believe he really thought he was a prophet. I think something happened to him in that cave. I don't think it was an angel. I think it was something else. Yeah. So in that case, maybe he was like demonically inspired.

I think he was, I think that got started. And then when he was thoroughly convinced, he started making up things that, you know. So I don't think the Quran is, like, written. by Satan. I think some of it did start that way, but then he, Muhammad was like, all right, I'm going to run this ship now. And he started putting things in there that, you know, gave us the tools we need to debunk it today. Let me ask you a question that the Mormons are going to ask in the, in the comment section, because whenever I talk about them, they get really upset. That's fine. I'm fine with them. Why not, why be like this? I mean, you just got saying,

you got done saying that we should all like unite together and stop criticizing each other. Why would you criticize Joseph Smith? Because Mormons are. not Christian and I want them in the, I want them in the kingdom. Dude. Okay. Why? Because they deny essential Christian doctrines. They add a prophet in revelation that doesn't need to be added that changes fundamental doctrines. You're outside of the body of Christ at that point. You're believing in things that are heretical. You're believing in things that are false. I mean, like again, I'm fine with Christians working together, but we have to call out

heresy. We cannot just open the boundaries to include who we want. I I wish I could say Mormons are Christian. I wish I could. Well, the way their doctrine seems to be morphing, you might be able to do that soon. I hope so. Do you see what I mean by that? Maybe the next prophet will come along and go, be like. You know what?

They started practicing Lent. I believe on their website, they dissuaded Mormons from practicing Lent. This last time I saw some people. So I don't know. I mean, they don't believe in biblical inerrancy, and they don't believe that their prophets are infallible. And they're moving away from doctrines they once. court. Listen. So maybe they'll just get there eventually. Believe in the Trinity, reject the Mormon. Maybe after this debate with God logic, maybe we'll see a swath of Mormons accepting

the doctrine. I mean, I'd love to say Mormons are Christians. When they start believing correct doctrine, I will. And have a baptism that's valid. That's the reason we Catholics can't accept them as Christian. Exactly. Because what they mean by Father and the Son and Holy Spirit are completely different. That's an argument I use to show that we're all Christian because I go to the Protestants and they're like, the Catholics aren't Christian. Like, why? They believe in all the essential doctrines you believe in. They profess Jesus as Lord.

They believe in the Trinity and they go, okay. I go to the Catholics and the Orthodox. Why aren't Protestants Christian? We don't say that. Catholics don't say that. Well, you're right, you're right. The church is don't, but some of like the, you know, the orthobros or the trolls online will say that.

And I go, here's how I convince the trolls. I get most Christians agree, but I'm talking about just the trolls here. Does baptism save? Does the Orthodox or the Catholic Church rebaptized Protestants? the Orthodox sometimes do. We don't. Yeah, the Catholics do not.

I believe the official teaching on the Orthodox Church is, no, they don't need to be rebaptized. Sometimes they do just out of like. I think it depends on which Orthodox are talking about. Yeah, I mean, for us, it's like if you are baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son of the Holy Spirit. You're good. And the person who did it intends to do what the church does when she baptizes. You're validly baptized. And to re-baptize would be like a wrong thing to do it.

Right. So, I mean, if baptism saves, and I think it does. okay, then Protestants are saved. So we're all one family. The problem is like Mormons, Jova witnesses, Unitarians. They're not baptizing properly either. They're not believing core doctrines. I mean, I just have to get it on record that I think there's more to it than that.

Like, as a Catholic, we would think that you could lose your salvation. I agree. I've landed there. I think that's, that seems what the church fathers taught. And at the end of the day, I'm going to go with the church fathers. If I, unless I'm thoroughly. Yeah, like if there's a stalemate, you mean? Yeah.

Yeah. You know, so I think that's... What I mean by stalemate is you've got the Protestant saying this, the Catholic saying this, and we're like, all right, we both know what the scripture teaches. What does it mean? Right. Yeah, I mean, I'm not nailed to that. I mean, I'm not going to debate once saved, always saved.

I hope that's true. I really, ho do. So, I mean, like, because I want people to be saved. But, I mean, like, I think that's what the traditional teaching is, is that you can't lose. You can reject the gift of God, unfortunately. And I think God wants that freedom there for a reason. All right, brother. Well, peace. Cheers. To the Mormons. To the Mormons. Cheers, we say.

The Mormon, what? Oh. The Mormonoons? Well, there's a, sometimes we call the Muslims the Moomanoons. I didn't. So we've been calling them the Mormonoons. Good. Thanks to being on the show. Where can people find your stuff? We'll link to your channel below and everything. That's the main place. And the main place is the YouTube channel inspiring philosophy. But I'm under that name on TikTok, Instagram, Facebook. So if you want to see Mike dressed up as a Muslim, then go to his TikTok and Instagram now.

Yeah. God bless. Thanks, brother. Thank you.