Pints With Aquinas - The Importance of Friendship w/ Jacob Imam

Episode Date: March 31, 2023

Jacob and Matt talk about friendship in Aristotle and the Christian Tradition Follow us on Alt Tech:  https://mattfradd.locals.com https://rumble.com/c/pintswithaquinas Show Sponsors: Hallow: https://hallow.com/mattfradd Covenant Eyes: https://coveyes.com/fradd1 Everything Catholic: https://everythingcatholic.com Take a Timber Framing Course: https://www.steubenvilleworkshop.com/timber-framing-course

This is a lot. A lot. And I'm lying. Oh my goodness. There it is. Do you ever watch Wayne's World when you were a kid? No. What is it?

Five, four, three. Oh, am I? He does that. That's what I need to get him to do. How are you doing? I'm doing great. Maybe bring it up to your beautiful face just a little bit more. Wow, just right there.

Yeah. When did you shave your head? At what point were you like, I give up? Yeah, I asked that for a reason You're not even close man Yeah, I was already at the point where my head was cold by the time I started shaving it Blaze was born and I figured you know, this is the time, you know, you look good with a shaved head I don't know cuz I'm going back every month. I'm like gosh It's like and I said to my wife if I ever have to shave my head. I don't know. So, cause I'm going back every month. I'm like, gosh, it's like, and I said to my wife,

if I ever have to shave my head, I need to grow my beard. I can't have no hair anywhere. Yeah. Then you just, well, I was about to say, yeah. Somebody accused me of, or not accused me, not at all accused me. Somebody thought I was a cancer patient when I did that. And I thought, yeah, I got to get a beard. This is, yeah.

But it's amazing how younger people look if they're going bald and then they shave. And not just shave, but if they have a bit, like I told Michael Lofton this, I don't know if you know of him from Reason and Theology, but like he's, I think, going bald. I think that's fair to say, but I think I'm throwing him under the bus. And when he's got like a little bit of fluff. Do you think he knows that he's bald? When he's got, yeah, as he does now, he just learned about it on Pines with a Gwine. But then he shaves it, I'm like, oh my gosh, dude,

you look so much younger. It's funny. Well, it feels so much better. Like, you know, you're more dynamic, speed increases tremendously. Never, I haven't bought shampoo in years. Yeah, unbelievable. No need for this?

You know what, I just scratch it every once in a while. Stuff falls out of it. It goes away. Well, it's always good to have you on the show, brother. Thanks, dude. We're going to be talking a lot about friendship today. How does that knife look, Thursday, in the middle of the table?

Should I take that out? Actually, it's in focus. Oh. Oh. Oh. Which means everything else isn't. No, no. It's just barely on the focus depth, so it's like just barely on like the focus like depth.

So it's okay. Okay. It looks a little odd. You are doing amazing work at the student bill workshop that's sometimes referred to as or we can't say that. No, go for it. What is it? St. Joseph workshop?

Yeah, the College of St. Joseph, the worker. So we're currently in this certification process with the state and it's going really well. The office is really lovely to work with, but they are so behind backlogs, understaffed, legally forbidden to do over time. And so our launch is kind of in limbo a little bit, but we're really excited to push forward everything that we're doing in our local workshop. You've come, you've done some projects, and this summer we're going to be doing two, three week courses in timber framing, which I'm just really excited about. And people can come from around the country to do that?

Yeah, they're already signing up to do that. We have quite a number of signed up already. It's timber framing. It's kind of the traditional way of doing carpentry. If you were going to build a house a thousand years ago, a hundred years ago, maybe a little bit more than a hundred years ago, you're going to use this traditional method of using larger beams in this mortise and tenon method of joinery. It is something that lasts through the ages. If you want to build a building that actually has structurally sound for millennia, you're going to choose timber framing. Like if you go back and you look throughout Europe, all these beautiful buildings, they made of

stone and it's all timber framed. Notre Dame was just being rebuilt right now. That is all classical timber framing methods. And you. And the stuff that we're building today, for the most part, it's not gonna last much longer than 50 years. But even if it did last longer than 50 years, we probably would tear it down because it's not pretty. This is structurally, has a structural longevity to it. It has an aesthetic longevity to it.

It really is the foundation of our carpentry world. And so we're really excited to teach people this trade that really should be preserved. But even more than that, we're going to be doing an hour every morning studying the theology of work. So wedding together, the head in the hands. So just so people are really clear, we are trying to, this is an ad. This is totally an ad. We are trying to get you to come to Steubenville in the summer to live here for three weeks, three weeks. Yep.

And to learn timber framing. Yep. That's it. I kind of want to do it. I'm going to do it. Yeah, I'm really excited. So where someone's watching right now, because we have a lot of people too who are discerning moving to

Steubenville. So coming here for three weeks in the summer might be a beautiful way to do that. Where are they going to live and how much does it cost and who can come? Yeah, great, great question. So we do have limited free housing available. We're trying to get as much of that ready to go as we can before everybody comes in June. How much does it cost? It's $2,500, which is about a third the price is what other programs like this cost around the country. And for whatever it's worth, and they aren't Catholic temper-framing schools, and they

won't do the theology of work a bit as well. So we've tried to make it as affordable as possible and to be able to come relocate here for a little bit of time. It's probably easier for some mature high school students, college students to do that. But if you're discerning a move to Steubenville, I mean, this is a great opportunity for you. You would take high school students, presumably they'd have to come with a parent if they're under 18. That's a better idea. I mean, we can, depending on whether or not they know somebody here,

that could work out well. That's really cool. Three weeks and how many hours a day would people be? It's a nine to five thing. Yeah, it's a full day. know somebody here that could work out well. That's really cool. Three weeks and how many hours a day would people? It's a nine to five thing. Yeah, it's a full full day. OK, so if someone like me who knows almost nothing about this sort of stuff after three weeks, nine to five, what will I know how to do? You know, so we are actually going to be putting together a large workshop and a gazebo during during that time.

So different. Sorry. With those two different courses, we'll be doing one a gazebo, one a workshop. And this will actually, one of them I'm paying for because I want this workshop at my house. And then another group in town wants to put this gazebo together. And so, this is like real projects that we're doing and then selling to other people. So you will have a high enough competency to be able to produce something that's sellable. Okay, but if it's a group of people putting together a workshop or a gazebo, when I leave, does that just mean I'd be able to do this if I had a bunch of other people? Like, am I learning just bits and pieces of the workshop?

No, that's a great question. You will know the traditional forms of joinery for timber framing. But the thing about timber framing is, is that it's inherently communal way of building. You need other people because the timbers are just so large. So it practically leads itself to friendship, to communion, to having a common work with other people. Okay. Well, that's awesome. All right.

So if people want to sign up for this three week course in Steubenville, come live here for three weeks, learn how to do something awesome. Maybe fathers could come with their sons or daughters. We'll put a link in the description below. And what does that link take people to? Does it take them to the page, gives them all the info? Exactly. It's already in there.

Good man. Thank you. Real quick, so since people are gonna be, since this is a big part of it, could you tell people who's gonna be teaching the theology of work parts? Yours truly. Yeah, so I'll be teaching that section

and what we'll be doing for that time is starting with LeBorg-McCurson's John Paul II's encyclical on the theology of work before moving on to an encyclical by Benedict XVI, and then we'll actually read Lodato C at the end, which is probably the best work that Pope Francis has done. So, if you want reasons to like Pope Francis, you know, that will be an encyclal to read together. How many people can you actually take? We could take up to 30, but we would prefer to keep it around 20, and we'll probably cap it there.

Okay, so this is, yeah, so if you're interested, do it now, because you may not have a chance after it sells out, obviously. Cool, it's selling out. Speaking of Pope Francis, I wanted to read this, and I'd like us to pray for Pope Francis. I think people know this by now. He's been taken to hospital with respiratory problems. And I guess he's had surgery in the past and has had some of his lung perhaps removed.

And so it could be quite serious. Pope Francis taken to hospital with respiratory infection. And so apparently he's supposed to be there several days. So he is our Holy Father and I think we should pray for him. Vatican News three hours ago did say he's improving. Okay, good. Yep. He said he's touched by the prayers that are coming in from around the world.

I don't know if you know this, you probably do that. He saw he's already signed a resignation letter last December. Not a sorry if if I should have know that you make that a sound bite. I will cut that out of the clip for later. He is put together. Yeah. If he becomes incapacitated in any way. But but let's let's let's offer a Hail Mary for him. Yeah. In the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother and Mother God. Pray for sinners now at the hour of our death. Amen. Amen. In the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Amen. All right. One more thing I want to touch on before we get into today's topic of friendship is daily wire host Michael Knowles was suspended from Twitter

over a post responding to Nashville Elementary School shooting this week. Well, we know what happened. God have mercy and bless those poor souls who are dealing with this aftermath of this awful thing that happened. That's interesting that he was kicked off. You know what he said? I, I'm looking it up. Feel free to help me here. He, uh, it was attention. Let's see. According to a screenshot posted by fellow daily wire host, Matt Walsh, Knowles tweeted most tweet violated the platform's rules on abusive content.

Attention Elon Musk, Michael Knowles was suspended for posting a Bible or a Bible verse. And Matt Walsh says, I assume this was a mistake. Can we get his account restored ASAP? So I have a I like I quit Twitter. You know, I did this. Yeah, I'm so proud. It's like quitting Twitter, getting married, birth of my first child. What about your second child? I'm so glad I'm not in that dumpster fire anymore.

It just was not good for me. I don't think it's good for many people. No, it's built to make us more vicious towards one another. I mean, don't you think like the very design of it is you can't encapsulate long arguments. It's just conclusions. And so if there's no way to walk with somebody down their thought process,

then there's no way of actually being able to understand them or where they're coming from. And so it's as a result, if you're just tossing conclusion off of one another, it's built and designed around and nitty Yeah, and I'm trying to find the full tweet, but I did find that the verse specifically that he that was in the tweet that got him suspended was Beloved

Never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God for it is written vengeance is mine And I will repay says the Lord Wow so I don't know what else is in the tweet because I doubt he got suspended for just that I see no shared Romans 12 19 which reads but yet just to say exactly what you just read never avenge yourselves but leave it to the right I mean if anything you could take that in the most beautiful way and say like this horrible thing has happened. Someone targeted a Christian school. We shouldn't avenge ourselves. When you start getting banned from posting Bible

verses. He linked to the daily wire article on the trans day of vengeance that has been scheduled for April 1st for a while. Oh. And so I believe he was... So he's talking to trans people, not to avenge themselves. So he linked this article, which I can send to you, Matt, so you can talk about it if you want.

I'll flack it to, well, to me from your account over here, but... He posted an Instagram post after his suspension and it says I've been suspended from Twitter for quoting the Bible. Specifically, I quoted a verse urging people not to take vengeance. Yeah. Well, and then cites over that the trans community is not taking on this long form of long suffering. Oh, holy. Yeah. Implication, right?

Trans activists called for a day of vengeance before Nashville shooting. And that's what it looked like. Trans day of vengeance, stop trans genocide. The abuse of language is just what do you say? Awful, vicious, manipulative. It's one result of the breakdown of friendship. Yeah. Could say, yeah, let's get to that.

No, it really is. Um, we would really have to use correct language. I mean, this is, um, what's his name? Anthony Eslon talks about this. The it's so necessary to use words correctly. It's like when you call abortion health care or I just had a fellow on from Canada the other day, they know they're moving away from assisted suicide or euthanasia and they're now calling it made,

which is what again, an acronym for medical aid in dying. It's like who's going to be now you're going to be going gonna be opposed to that. Are you opposed to medical aid and dying? It's like yes. Yes, because I'm against killing innocent people But this idea of genocide the idea that anyone is declaring genocide is insane and just incorrect incorrect You would think that a trans day of vengeance would be what got banned, not Michael Knowles calling for people not to take vengeance on people. How much, when does Musk actually close on Twitter? Oh, he's closed.

He has. Yeah. So I mean, some changes. More of this change hasn't already occurred. So what's happened recently is, because I've been paying attention to this is there are still so because Twitter had integrated a lot of their like just like very the kinds of moderation tools that were like very Orwellian they were into they're integrated so far into the system that it's taking a really long time to pull

them all out mm-hmm and so people are getting suspended in band automatically. Four things that Twitter and Musk, like the new team at Twitter and Musk are not necessarily doing. But what's happening is like the old robots and the old tools are just kind of taking action and of themselves. Ah, ah, the robots are taking over. Like one of the things that happened. One of the things that happened.

I sniffed it, it was dead. People know what we're referring to. The humans are dead. I have no idea what you guys are talking about. We took poisonous gases. Actually poisoned their bottoms. Actually their lungs. Binary solo.

Sorry. What is happening? Flight of the concords, baby. One of the things that happened recently is Vince Dow is a young man who's medium sized political commentator was reinstated. He's official buyer.

He's a medium sized. He was reinstated. Like that's his official bio. Like he's a medium size. He was, he was reinstated on Twitter, but one of the accounts that he had made anonymously to work around the ban was found out to be a ban workaround. And so the robots automatically were like, oh, this account and this account are ban evading. So ban them both. Yeah. I, to your point about whenever a social media seeks to truncate your speech, it inevitably becomes pernicious. It's why it's part of the reason TikTok is so pernicious. And I think it's the same thing with Twitter. As you say, you can't, it's not about reasoning

with people and, and it puts you in the mind can't, it's not about reasoning with people. And, and it puts you in the mind frame that you're not open to reasoning. Like, you know, no one goes to Twitter for deep philosophical reflection. They go there for quick hit bits and curiosity and. Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. And this actually leads really well into our topic today because would you remember when things like mySpace and Facebook started taking off? Absolutely. Yeah.

And we started talking about friends like the I got this many friends. Yeah. I think that is like illustrative. The fact that friendship has broken down in our society. And I think if I actually I'm going to do a Twitter poll. Actually, could you do I'm going to do it right now. Sorry, I just realized I can do that. I want to do a poll on YouTube, No, it's been a poll poll on YouTube. Do you have a close friend?

Yes or no. I'd be interested to see if people, what, what they say. Cause I think a lot of people are saying, I don't, I'd love a close friend, but I don't. I have acquaintances. I have some people that I bump into from time to time, or I have an old friend from high school, I guess I could call, but not somebody that they do life with, as it were. Totally. I think we've totally devalued the term, beginning with Facebook, and that that devaluation has only made it more looming in our mind's eye, thinking about friendship

all the more. Meanwhile, we have fewer and fewer. I mean, C.S. Lewis said this 80 years ago, that most of us go through life without a real friend. I mean, and that was a problem 80 years ago. How much more is a problem now? You do have these polls for whatever they're worth. I've seen some out of like Time Magazine and stuff that from 1989 to 2017, the number of people that report having a close friend has gone down by a third and such. I mean, it's just traumatizing to actually see some of these numbers. But part of it is also just getting our language right, you know, as you're just saying, is that we don't even know what a friend is.

We don't know how to identify it. And thus, when we have a chance of really coming into communion regularly with someone, we don't really know what to do with our hands, you know? It's kind of one of those strange problems. We don't really know what friendship is, so we don't really know how to be a friend. So it would be great to have a little conversation with you about that today. Yeah, it might be helpful just to begin with the definition. I mean, you and I have been looking through Thomas Aquinas' commentary on the Nicomachean

ethics. Aristotle talks about friendship. Is it four kinds of friendship or three? Three. Three kinds of friendship. But two of them aren't really friendship, he says. So that makes it all the trickier. Well, let me allow you to do that.

Do you want to help us understand what friendship means? Sure. Yeah. to help us understand what friendship means. Sure, yeah. So, I'll take it from St. Thomas in particular, is that friendship and love are synonymous terms. We use them in different situations and settings, and so they're logically different, but essentially they're the exact same thing. Friendship is charity. And then there's these two major components, there's maybe a few more we can add in there

as it goes on, but there's two major components to friendship. That is one willing the good of the other and uniting with them. So there's this mutual in haste, this mutual dwelling that happens in friendship where we're actually with one another, helping one another, walking with one another, that there's something that is necessary, some action that is necessary, some joint activity that is necessary between two people for friendship to actually occur. As C.S. Lewis put it, you actually have to be traveling to have a traveling companion, you know, and that's a necessary component to friendship. Two things

that kind of look like it often, and this is kind of the two other forms of friendship that Aristotle originally brings out, is the friendship of pleasure and the friendship of utility. Yeah, and he says that these are friendship by analogy. And I think that's a really important term to consider because when you're making an analogy comparing one thing to another There's always a greater dissimilarity than there is similarity. And so it you know, this is not to say That these relationships are bad at all. Yeah. No, I mean, I guess that should be yeah We need we need to say that right off the bat. We need to say that I mean People at your work that you get along with only because you share the same piece

of carpet with that doesn't make that a bad thing. No, not at all. And actually, St. Thomas, Aristotle was a pagan. We should put that out there. He got a lot of things wrong. And one of the great transformations of this kind of way of thinking about friendship in the later Christian tradition is that actually those are movements into real friendship. They might never climax into something that we could really genuinely call a friend, but that movement into loving your neighbor as yourself, which is

that movement into friendship, can it can begin with pleasure. It can begin with some sort of real utility. It's easier to begin with pleasure rather than utility because you're actually enjoying the person. Aristotle puts it with utility, with friendships of utility, that you're almost treating the person like a tool, like an object, like a lever to like yank the gears

in the place you can get actually the the end result that you want does that make sense it does but i i mean we that's not that's not a problem necessarily either right i mean so long as i still as long as i don't subordinate your good say to the to the good of a pleasure. Like that's possible. Say like in, if I use someone in a sexual way, right? I'm subordinating their dignity to the good of a selfish pleasure. But I mean, there are all sorts of ways we make use of each other. I go to the coffee shop, or you just did, right? You made use of the barista. But you're not subordinating her good in any way. You're not devaluing her or taking advantage of her or him.

Yeah, exactly. And I think that is starting to be some of the Christian insight to friendship that you just didn't really see as much in Aristotle, where you can actually say that this whole world was birthed into existence through charity. And therefore, there's this latent law of love that defines the way that everything works in this world. And the more that we are able to recognize it and go along the current of that charity, that natural charity that's in the world, the more that we're actually treating somebody, even if we don't know them well, as a friend, as a friend would, you know, and that's, and that's, you know, part of this path. I don't know if it was Lewis or somebody else who said that when lovers are together, they look at

each other. Yeah. And when friends are together, they look at something other than themselves. Yeah. Yeah. And I like that. It's almost like friendship burns on a fuel other than them. Whereas maybe this is the wrong way of putting it because I'm just thinking on the spot here. But like when lovers come together, it's like their love is the fuel that kind of keeps them. And obviously they're directed outward towards family and children. But with friends, like it's so important to have an activity. And you were just talking about this. I'd love you to talk about this more. An activity outside of us that we're both directed at.

Right, yep. Well, I think even if it's a cigar or even if it's a hike through the woods or... Yeah, maybe the hike is a little bit better, but of an example, but where you find that kind of erotic, which is a good type of love still, you know, as keeping in place with this agapic love of Christianity, that, you know, when I, you know, met, married Alice, it is that, like, face-to-face, but the face-to-face built a new world, you know, Blaze and Leo emerged from it. And so, they'll, most of our day is kind of shoulder the shoulder, so that at night we can sit down face to face again. And whereas it's kind of an opposite situation with the friendship where you are working

shoulder the shoulder creating a new world, then you can sit down and turn to one another face to face. Oh, how interesting. So would you say then, and please correct me if I'm wrong because I'm thinking this through, but so with an erotic couple, it may begin face to face, but then is directed outward in order to come back face to face with friendship. It usually begins shoulder to shoulder. And then in that camaraderie, in that activity, we grow close to each other and then can share lives with each other. I think that's right. Yeah. And so there's so many of the kind of pernicious things

that we're hearing about friendship today or even just directives post the lockdowns is that, you know, I just want to sit down with somebody face to face. And that's obviously great. But if all of our activity with our friends is just getting a beer with one another and kind of like spewing out life to one another, then that's not really the fullness of friendship that we could be enjoying. You know, to actually have a common work that is going to bind us together in some really powerful and deep ways that we are

collaborating with one another in our construction of the kingdom of God here on earth, man, that's a real fraternity. That type of fraternity is the crux of a real friendship where we are recognizing ourselves as brothers with Christ under God the Father and welcoming in His world in which we can enjoy one another more fully. So friendship needs a common love. Yeah. Right?

He's a third. A third thing. Yeah. Yeah. There's like this triadic nature of love. Whereas if we are just kind of sitting together and the cigar or the beer is like the excuse to be with one another, it almost, it's going to sound terrible. It almost has that erotic element in it that's primarily defining it,

that I'm here just precisely because of you. I see. But we actually, but a real friendship, as C.S. Lewis likes to say, is not jealous of the other person. It welcomes more people. It like spawns, it says, yeah, come join us. We would love for you to be with us, you know, and to be able to then

take that enjoyment of one another, that kind of multiplying effect of friendship and bring that into the world so that we can start to transform it together. So could you say that it's appropriate for lovers to be jealous in a certain sense, but not for friends? Yeah. And I mean, I could guess as to why, but why do you think that is? Well, I suppose there's not that the same, there's a different sacred element to a friendship as there is to a marriage, we'll say.

Like the sacred element within the marriage is sacramental. It is, it is nuptial, it is approaching some real form of exclusivity, of bodily self. But my spirit is something else, actually. It's something that, as I am trying to become more virtuous and to ascend into God, to actually be deified, right? What does that mean, actually, to be entering into God? It means that I am going to be more like Him, meaning that I'm going to be more inherently personal. That we can, as we go closer to entering into God, whose name is love, meaning His name is friend, too, if those are interchangeable terms, then being able to be friends with everyone, then my movement into that form of deification, which is the other, the

sacral element of that relationship, is going to be expansive in a new way. Mason Hickman Yeah, it's funny when you even just look at secular society and how people talk about bad friends. We all kind of get it, even at a rudimentary level, even without Christian teaching, you'll hear somebody say something like, when I hit rock bottom, I knew who my real friends were. And that's sort of exposing friendship of utility as it were. They died away. And then those who still love me are around or even vicious friendships where pleasurable in that case because like people he hit rock bottom he's

not fun to be with anymore yeah that's a good that's right or there's also those friends you might call a vicious friendship where I don't will your good like it might be the it's it's that you either utility or or pleasure again where I only like you because I don't know we go to the strip club together or we we do something deeply immoral together. But I'm clearly not wanting your good in that I'm not concerned about your good I might be in some areas but not overall so my point is just that in secular society, we can still people are still pointing and are aware of like, I want to be I want, you know, again, even in secular society, someone would say, I want someone who's going to say, tell me things like it is, even if it'll offend me. Right. Now, they might not really like that when you do it, but we see the virtue in it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's right.

The I don't know, I think that this is something that because God has naturally placed it on our souls to desire Him, that we're going to naturally desire friendship with one another because that is the movement and path to Him. But Mark Barton, and I chat about this a lot, is that those two elements of friendship, of pleasure and utility, are absolutely supposed to be part of a real friendship. That's why you can actually even call it an analogy, because those elements are proportional to the relationship itself, but actually they are within it as well. It's kind of univ the relationship itself, but it's like they actually, they are within it as well. It's kind of univocal in that regard. And so whereas I might say that, you know, at the end of the day, I want to just kick back and hang out with my friends to actually be able to go to work

and to be with my friends and to have some common goal with them that we are striving for together. some common goal with them that we are striving for together. It's so important. And it's precisely this is that Aristotle didn't have the language for this, but St. Thomas did, is that where our wills are united, their friendship truly is. Okay. That is, that is really the goal and the goal where, where's the object of our love is the same, our wills are united.

There's a real friendship. I see. And ultimately that's God, but all these proximate ends that we can have on that path to God is certainly a part of that. Say that again, where our wills are united, their friendship is. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, no, that's great. And so you would see that even in wanting to watch a football game with a friend.

I mean, there's your wills are united in wanting to enjoy this game together. Totally. And it's interesting how the thing I want to enjoy is always enhanced by a friend. This is why you and I have spent hours showing each other funny YouTube videos. And if you left, I wouldn't watch those YouTube videos on my own. It's fine without you. Totally. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's right. But, you know, when St. Augustine, I think this is a really important point.

There was St. Augustine says that where you have two friends, you have one will. I mean, same same thing is I mean, that's where St. Thomas is riffing on it. But but that's really an interesting thing, is that if I go down the street and I see, you know, like Robbie Pretzel, I'm also seeing Matt Fradd in some way, because there's their movement in one together. And why it's like some people like call me to get to you

and stuff like that. It's like, because it's not just a practical thing where I know you, is that they know that like, our wills are united in some way. And I think that's a interesting component to friendship is where the other has a real power over the other. Like you have a certain power over me because I love you. So you can ask me to do something and I'll do it.

And so there's this power, this like obedience that happens, which is also why obedience is a council of the church, like an admonition given by Christ is that obedience is this movement where our will begins to unite with another's. It's like deferential to it and desiring to be one with it, you know, and so that's this is And that is also kind of an uncomfortable thing About friendship. I think it's so important. We're gonna understand what it is But it will be some sort of insight that the world

Desperate for friendship as you're just saying might be more reluctant to come on board with. And which is what this? Yeah obedience to to another like like a real deference to the other, allowing that person to have a real power over you. Yeah, when you talk about that more because it does at least initially sound contrary to what we said earlier about love not being jealous. Whereas like we love each other, but it's like, it doesn't mean I get to tell you what to do.

Ah, well, I think I was thinking about jealous in terms of being exclusive. Okay. You know, so I can have this type of deference to a number of people so long as our wheels are all in line. They hopefully won't contradict, you know, but as long as there is this sort of real desire to unite with one another, not just wishing the other well, but actually uniting with them,

to that second pillar of friendship. And there's going to have to be that sort of love that is willing to bend over backwards for the other person. I see. And so this is- That's a nice way of putting it, because that's more a colloquial way of putting it that people are aware of.

Like if you love someone, like a good friend, doesn't a good friend seek when appropriate to bend over backwards for you? And everyone's like, of course I hope so. Yeah. But that's what we mean is obedience. That's what we mean by bend over backwards. I think so.

Yeah. Yeah. Even when we might not at first see the end that the person has asked us or has asked it for. So it's like, if I ask you to come over and bring me a jug of milk or something like that, you know, it's like you don't know why I'm asking for it, you just do it. But I feel bound to you. Yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's just like, so patience is kind of a sign of, I mean this is in the dialogues of St. Catherine, so I'm just

riffing off of that, you know, patience is a sign of obedience. OK, yeah. And I think, you know, I always get get on my soapbox about telephones and cell phones. Get on it. Right. Jump on there. But isn't it true, though, where it's like that kind of blurs the lined but blurs the line between friendships of utility and like real friends? And we're both making demands upon each other. Like we get a series of text messages, some are from someone we haven't talked to in years, or someone might just be like a business associate who got our number. And someone might be someone I do life with, like yourself, who asks for the jug of milk.

But sometimes we feel this. I know I feel this anxiety because I'm like, what's my responsibility to all of these emails that I might get or all these text messages I might get from people who I'm actually not in communion with. Yeah. Like, surely I'm not responsible for all of them, because if I was responsible for all of them, I wouldn't therefore be responsible for my family because I wouldn't have the time to be. And so making that making that can be a very difficult. It can be a difficult discernment.

Yeah, well, that's true. I do think I don't know, though, if it's because. I mean, you and I live different lives in that I have more of a public persona, right? And so I do actually have more. I don't know if I do have more or not, but I think it would probably be likely that I have more random people reaching out to me for things. Does that make sense? Oh, I'm sure I don't mean you have to. Yeah. So maybe maybe Oh, I'm sure you do. I don't mean that.

You have to. Yeah. So maybe I'm just, maybe other people don't have that experience where they have a lot of people texting and emailing them about things that they would like or, you know? Oh, I, well, I don't know. I have that.

You do? Probably just not to the extent that you do. And I'm sure everybody does to some extent. But this is, you know, a really important point is that what distance has done, what distance does is it affirms, well, let me back up here. So say you go down the Guatemala or something like that, crazy outrageous thing to do. Your distance creates some sort of void in my life, you know, whereas my day-to-day is now dependent on Matt Fratt in some way, you know, where I'm used to being with you, right?

And so if you're not there, I feel that. And that void is one of the best ways, I think Sartre said this, that it's the best way of knowing that the other person really exists. Oh, that's beautiful. Isn't that something? Because if I came back, I was like, I've been gone for a year.

And you're like, what? I didn't even know you left. What does that say? Yeah, exactly. And so, having that distance means that there's something then to either just sit with and kind of appreciate, and hopefully that leads us to praying for the other person, because that is the best way that we can unite with another who is not there.

But it also can lead to some sort of real labor to get in touch with the other person, like getting out the piece of paper, to writing the note, to sharing something that is uniquely my own, my handwriting, my thoughts. But if I whip out my phone and I do that, then there's actually not the same labor there on two points. One is that my work is actually the work of the tech billionaires over there who are making it all easier for me to do this. Is that it makes me think that I'm doing something, I'm getting out my phone, I'm sending Pat a message or I'm giving him a call. But really the labor is another's in that situation. There's not as much of myself that I can give, my handwriting, the lack of long

form and stuff like that that's not available, say, in a handwritten note. There's plenty of ways to poke into this, but go with me here for a bit. But the bigger problem, I think at least, is that we can have some sort of communication without any collaboration in a common work when we're apart. Again, there's ways of overcoming that. I mean, the whole idea of working from home thing is, you know, manifests that. But it's not the default and it's not the obvious thing. And then particularly it's not the clear thing when it comes to a friendship with another. Like we are now missing that common work

of where we are. And of course, if we're present to somebody afar, then we're not present to where we are here. And that means that we might, we may be committing some sort of oversight on the common work that we are supposed to be achieving. Yeah presently that make sense yeah it does yeah. And being human creatures it really is like video calls are really no substitute for being in the same room as each other I would even say like having a comic a common work.

Where I do it in supermobile and my colleague does it in Arizona and my other colleague does it in Atlanta, there's no substitute for like working together, flesh and blood in the same room. It's just not, I mean, we all realize that. As soon as COVID lockdowns were over, it was very important to me to stop doing Skype interviews, which I did for a bit throughout that time,

but this is what I really like. I really like sitting with another human being. And everybody understands that. Everybody who comes to the studio understands why this is what I really like. I really like sitting with another human being and everybody understands that. Mm hmm. Everybody who comes to the studio understands why this is better than a Skype interview. Everybody who watches the show prefers it when, like if I do an interview and people think it was going to be in person, they find out it's a Skype thing. Everyone's disappointed. Yeah.

What do you think that is? I think there's, you probably can't get away from the fact that there's like a millisecond delay between when I say something and you respond on Skype. Like there is that barrier, but I don't know. It's just, it's, it's, it's, it's more human to sit across from another person and look in their actual eyes as opposed to looking into a video camera. It's just, it's less personal and we want what's personal. Yeah. What do you think?

Yeah, I suppose, I suppose that has to be part of it because technically you're watching a recording. That's true. On Skype, right? Yeah, so, but maybe, yeah, maybe it's like friendship. I want to watch someone else's friendship. Yeah. You know?

Oh, or I'm saying like conducting it. So like it's the same reason like why you can't do a confession on Skype or on a phone call because technically it's a recording. It's not live. it's not living. You could do one with a megaphone because that's only projecting your voice. Isn't that weird? And it's so cool. Yeah.

You don't want to if you're confessing that fact. And then I... But I think, I suppose that has to be part of it is that even like our, our souls know the real from the recorded in a way that we might not be able to, for the first articulator understand the importance of. Yeah. That's an interesting topic. You could write a whole dissertation, perhaps. I'm done writing a dissertation.

I am one and done. Congratulations. Thanks. Now you've, you've received your doctorate. I'm done. Yeah. Dr. Jacob Imam. That's terrific. Thanks brother. I think I joke with you that if I spent that much time, I'd be demanding everybody to call me doctor. Jacob, your coffee's ready? That's Dr. Imam to you and everybody. It was really

cute. Yeah, Alice right afterwards said to Blaise, you know, like, daddy's a doctor now. And he goes, Dr. Daddy. And so he'll call me that from time to time. Don't you forget it son. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. I didn't know. So one of the strange things about friendship too is then like this idea of loving your friend for God's own sake. Have you thought about this much? Say in a different way so I can see if I can go to the house. But you know, it's just this. Have you thought about this much? Say in a different way so I can see if I can grasp it You know, it's this kind of a thought coming out of st. Augustine that I I don't love you for your own sake I love you for God's own sake and so it's that like the friend is not the end in that in that relationship

Yeah, I mean obviously if Augustine said it I need to understand it. But my first reaction to it is negative. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, it feels like we are creatures in one sense with our own ends and therefore for our own sake. Although, of course, we exist for God's sake. But when you say that, I think, oh, but I want to be the end. Like I want you to be the end. I don't want to love you instrumentally.

Like I'm going to love you for his sake because he wants this of you. But again, it's bound to be right. I just, I'd need to think about it more. I think, yeah, I don't know. I really, I'm just kind of speculating here, but I think that it has to be right, but it also doesn't have to be,

miss the point of the other person's end. So, like, in the sense that what is your end? Like, what do I want most for you? Heaven, I hope. Yeah, exactly. Like, I want you to have the perfect intimacy with God, you know? And so, and God wants that.

And that brings God most glory. And so, willing God, willing you for God's own sake is actually willing you for your proper end, the one that you want most, the one that you want me to want for you most. Yeah, to bring it down to a human analogy, it would be like me saying to my son, I want what your mother wants for you. And that's good. That's way better than you think it is. Kind of thing, you know? So it's like we have this so God wants my end to be with him and so do you. He can bring it about. I suppose you can participate in it.

He allows you to participate in it. Can we, I wanna bring this down a little bit. Yeah, sorry. Don't be sorry, this is really good, but I wanna share two quotes. One is from Aquinas from his work, De Regno, it's the On Kingship to the king of Cyprus. He says this.

First of all, among all worldly things, there is nothing which seems worthy to be preferred to friendship. Friendship unites good men and preserves and promotes virtue. Friendship is needed by all men in whatsoever occupation they engage. In prosperity, it does not thrust itself unwanted upon us, nor does it desert us in adversity. It is what brings with it the greatest delight, to such an extent that all that pleasure that pleases is changed to weariness when friends are absent and all difficult things are made easy and as nothing by love. If you just take three words at a time and spend 10

hours. Let's do it. Yeah you know this is a particularly, drag me back down if this is too abstract, but something that you read in Aristotle is that he keeps jumping to this political conversation when talking about friendship. And then St. Thomas does this again in the commentary and then elsewhere in the summa. And the idea there is that every civilization begins with a group of friends. I mean, C.S. Lewis repeats this. Okay. Say that again, every civilization.

Every civilization begins with a group of friends. Yeah. I mean, what is civilization? Civilization is just the order of a particular known identifiable people. Right. So here in America, it's very hard because we're an empire. We can't tell where one city begins, where the next ends. St. Thomas actually says that that's a telltale sign of a dying civilization.

Oh well, he'd be right about that. That makes sense because friendship has to precede civilization. For a civilization to get off the ground, we need a common love and a common good to work towards, right? Yeah, exactly. I mean, this is a heresy of the modern world where we say actually civilizations began with enmity, with hatred, with the desire to like fear, of overcoming your fear that that other guy is going to kill you. So you make a truce, some sort of stalemate.

Whereas in the Catholic tradition, it's completely flipped over its head and said, actually, no, it's because the other person loves the one, loves the friend, that they want to spend that time together. And that, again, it multiplies. You build the world with one another. And so in Thomas's line is that every civic association is encapsulated by friendship and that it grows out of it. So, I think that's a really important thing for us today on a number of fronts, but recalling that friendship is that union of wills,

it means that we have to, if we're building something new, like here in Steubenville, we're trying to revitalize this dilapidated, rust-belt town of ours, it means that if we're really going to be successful in it, it's going to emerge out of our friendship. Like Steubenville is, in an approximate way, our common work. And that the way in which we're going to have like a real structure, a real hierarchy emerge out of it again, in a really good way, we might say, where there's like authorities that we trust instead of like the city that we distrust or something like that, you might say, is that that means that I have to be willing to something because you will it and not for another reason.

So this is where I think St. Thomas's understanding of friendship is so much richer than Aristotle's is because he understood the will, which Aristotle never discusses in all of his work. So if I, and rulership can happen by an opposing will. So say there's a, you know, you're in communist Russia and somebody like bangs on your door and they tell you they get out and they have a gun You know before you and they're threatening you. Mm-hmm. Why are you leaving because I'm afraid I'll die Yeah, because you first of all, I'll lose something Yeah, exactly because it's not the same reason that he wants you out of there. Hmm, right? I mean he has a different reason, a different purpose. So, your wills are actually completely at odds with one another, even though you're doing what He says. And that feels like how we're being ruled today,

for the most part. It's like, why am I going along with all the laws and strictures that are in place? Well, it's because I fear getting fined or being taxed more or because I'm like being put in jail or a holding cell or something like that, you know? We're going to get a ticket, you know? Like those are the things, but those are not the real reasons why I should be doing something or why we should, how our social order should cohere together. Absolutely. And this is why virtue is not merely about behavior.

I have to come to love the good, not just do the good. And so if a law is just, then I should not only obey it, but I should want to obey it. Yeah, exactly. I mean, St. Thomas in his treatise on the law says that every law should be framed. You know, is it that he really lived in a world where there were far fewer laws than us? And so there could be the laws that did exist could be framed, right? Whereas it would be an inexhaustible list for us and probably inexcusably.

But it's like, why is it that you cross on the right-hand side of the road or something like that? He said, when we tell our children and raise up our children in our society, we should tell them why that is. No, I don't think it's possible for us Americans to do that. There's too many laws. Yeah. But some of them. Yeah, as many of them as we can. Yeah. And obviously those are going to be the just ones that are actually reasonable. Let me tell you about a law I break continually that I've mentioned on the show before and

get your take on it. I joyfully drive through red lights here in Steubenville. Yeah, I do the same thing. With tremendous pleasure. And my pleasure is enhanced if someone is parked across the street from me and sees me run the red light. Because the red lights here, not always and not in every instance, are arbitrary. And I think it's because the population of Steubenville used to be far greater than it is now. And I don't think we've seen a decrease in stoplights since the population's gone down. So here in Steubenville you drive and

sometimes you even have the other road blocked off and so it's like there is no reason. I can see that there's no cars anywhere. Why would I sit here for five minutes? Now I suppose if everybody took that approach then we might have chaos and I think that was that Kant or that contour whose idea I don't even think we would have chaos though, because we would come to a stoplight and we treat it like a, or we'd come to a traffic light. We would treat it like a stop sign. Yeah, exactly. That's how I feel. Now there are, sometimes I'll come to a busy street and I'm like, well, obviously I,

I stop and I wait because it's possible that someone could come flying over the corner here. But if I come to this dead end little road, I joyfully break that law. Am I right to joyfully break it? I would think so on two occasions. The first and foremost is to train us what laws are for, you know, because we could just get into that sheeple mentality where I'm just going to do it because somebody told me to do it. And obedience is patient.

Absolutely. No, no, no doubt about it. But if we have patiently tried the reasons and found none, then there should be some sort of re-habituation that we go through. And obviously there has to be considerations about what are the repercussions, like getting that ticket, can I afford it? Something like that, you know, that are like proper to any prudential consideration. But I think it's like, we got to realize that if we're trying to build something new here, then we got to figure out what is actually real, like a law of reality versus the law of an arbitrary state, you know, and just to be able to identify that and feel that in our bones, because obedience, again, it does demand obedience to another person. It's not just to a bureaucratic matrix. Like that's not obedience because there's no will to subjugate yours under.

Right. Does that make sense? I think it does. Like in a bureaucracy, and we're getting dangerously close to making this a political show, so we'll go back in a second. In a bureaucracy, it feels like the will of the lawmaker has now been dispersed among a thousand cogs, and you can't go to any of them to get an answer. Maybe I'm putting that wrong. I just don't think there is a will. There's no will. There is no will.

There's no individual who's willing it. I mean, we've all been on the phone with Comcast or Verizon or AT&T or something like that. Whereas like the person that we're talking to has no power to change anything. You know, there's no will in a bureaucracy. There's, and this is why CS Lewis, GK Chesterton, others have said that, well, what is, what does the social order? What's like how is hell organized? It's a bureaucracy Yeah, you feel you you feel your manhood being stripped away when you're on phone on the phone with these things Yeah, these these faceless nameless willless entities, right? Yeah. Yeah

Friend Alex Plato trying to get his phone fixed. That man has patience. Oh my god. I would have just decided to live without a phone or would have bought a new one, but he persevered. He was on phones for hours. Yeah, and he's the most patient guy in the world. I don't think he would ever have an angry bone in his body. So he got it done. But You know one thing I tell people when they move to Steubenville is you will not be able to be friends with everybody. You know, so when I used to live in North Georgia, I remember going to Holy Mass, meeting someone who was around our age. My wife and I had kids and like, OK, great. Like, let's be friends, because that was my only option.

There weren't that many people living life like we did, who we could be friends with. And even those friends, we still had to drive 20, 40 minutes to go over to their house one day. You move to Stububenville, I mean, from one end of town to the other, it's like an eight minute drive, maybe. And there's a lot of Catholic families and you just can't be friends with everybody. It's not possible.

How have you dealt with that? How have you found that? Do you agree with that? You know, I absolutely agree with that. You know, we've struggled to do that. You know, at first, when we first moved here, and especially since we're going back and forth between here and England, like whenever we were here,

we had dinner with somebody every single night of the week and it just like destroyed us. And we've since gotten a little bit of our feet, but part of it was like, we just wanna know what's going on in this city. We wanna know the people of it. And even if we're not going to enjoy deep intimacy with everybody here, we'd like to just know the folks that are, that we are going to be collectively living life with, the people that

we're praying the mass with. And so, I don't regret that for a moment, I think we were just so grateful to be able to do that, but our capacity is not God's capacity, you know? And so whereas that, I think that Christianization of Aristotle's understanding where it's like that, like goodwill and, you know, decided that real decision to do one little aspect that could unite us together, and then, but that's just the extent of my capacity. I think that's like very real and very good and like what we should be doing, like habituating ourselves towards a type of, um, orientation of charity towards everyone. Obviously that's loving your neighbor as yourself. But even if like when God became flesh and he had,

you know, an inner circle of three, I think that, that reveals a little bit of what our capacities actually are. Yeah. And that's just a capacity of our finitude. It's a capacity of locality too, which kind of hurts. I'd love to chat about that with you as well. But also it's just a capacity of like emotional space as well. Yeah.

I once had, I think it was a bishop say to me that if you really want to live community, you need to be in walking distance. Yeah. And that's, that seems to be true for me because we live on Lawson and, um, you know, you're a two minute drive away, but I see the people on my street a lot more than I see you or Thursday or others. And that's, I think appropriate. Um, and it's, it's just so healthy. I, I got this great story of, um, needing a lawnmower. And, uh, so I went, I think I texted

Mike Welker, Hey, can I borrow a lawnmower? And I didn't hear back and I knocked on his door and he wasn't there. So I walked to the Newton's and I got their lawnmower and I chatted with the Newton's for a bit. And then I pushed the mower down to my house and there was Mike Welker with the lawnmower. He was also gonna lend me. That's beautiful to me. I just love that. I love my wife and I'll be sitting in our chairs chatting like hey should we just see if the Welkers want to do some hookah? And they usually do. So we show up at their house and we hang out and it's so lovely to have that.

I can't express how much joy that brings me compared to where I was in Atlanta, where we had to. This is going to sound crazy because we've lived in Steubenville for so long, but I actually on a date night would drive my car 40 minutes to pick up a babysitter, drive 40 minutes to bring her back, go out on a date night with my wife, come back, drive 40 minutes to bring her back, go out on a date night with my wife, come back, drive 40 minutes to drop her home. It kind of breaks up the mood a little bit. It definitely breaks up.

You know what I mean? Exactly right. It's just the exhaustion of having to be in the car for like three hours just to accomplish something like that. That is insane. Yeah. I didn't know that. I think it is important if you want to build a Catholic community, wherever you're going

to do it, you're going to want to try to be in proximity to each other, which I know you said you wanted to talk about. Yeah. Yeah. On a couple of different levels. And stop me if you don't want to go here, but I, it's just kind of been on my mind is that a lot of, there's been a lot that's been discussed in recent years about the, I don't know a polite way of putting this, but kind of like the problems of modern clergy, you know,

where there's obviously like, you know, some great fights that are going on, but like the fidelity of modern clergy, like the courage of modern clergy, but just like they don't, they're feeling increasingly like unfulfilled and such. And I just kind of wonder how much of that is because they don't have proximate demands

on their life all the time. And they're going to immediately say like, what are you talking about? I get calls all the time. But people aren't, you're not like a neighbor, not in walking distance. You know, and I say this not as judgment, I just say that this is like a change of the social order that might be like part of the reason why we feel this. Whereas like a father might be very unfulfilled

in so far as that he feels emotionally distant from his wife or his kids, he doesn't have friends and stuff like that. But he always has like real persons asking him of something like all the time. Like our life is constantly being asked for, you know? And, but those are persons. They're not like calls.

Or emails, like a list of emails that I have to face every morning. Yeah, exactly. And so, you know, there's not that incorporation into the, like, the joys and the sorrows, the feasts and the festivals and the fastings as well that are just taken up by it, a good old-fashioned Catholic community. We've lost that. We've become grid-ized. Everything's a grid. We have to get everywhere by cars. That idea of having a real community that demands walking means that you're not... Aren't the Jews good at this?

Yeah, I think so. Like when they move into an area, they're always within walking distance of the temple. The Jews are in walking distance of each other. Yeah. Yeah, the Jews and the Amish, man. Yeah. You know, I think there's like real things that we can be learning from this and recognizing that I think for so long in America, like Catholics have been questioned,

you know, the whole idea of like when JFK was elected president, it's like, what is the Pope gonna rule us now? Yeah, where's your real allegiance? And we kind of like got defensive about that. We're like, no, no, no, we really love America, we promise. But the answer that we should be giving is like, of course our main allegiance is to the Pope. Like, of course.

And that's why we're able to love you better. Yeah, exactly. And we want to actually transform America to where we are evangelizing everybody in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, to the ends of the earth so that we might actually reorient our entire selves, our entire lives to love God more, and our lives are going to look different. And if everybody's converting and everybody's life is looking different, then it's not going to look like what it's looking like today. You know, we're going to build differently, you know? Love creates babies and institutions, as I like to say. I like that. T-shirt.

We have one. Oh, good. Not for sale. Last, last August on my month off, I was, I was reading Aquinas and I just got slapped up the face upside the head. I should say what he has to say about the virtue of friendliness. So we're talking about friendship right now. We're talking about friendliness. And the reason this slapped me upside the head is I've never been, and I think this

is to because of my own vice, right? I've never been good at putting on a face if I don't feel friendly. And my wife tells me this and people will share it with me if they feel safe too, is like, you just seemed like really angry with me or like you didn't want to talk to me. And sometimes it's not that I'm angry, but it's just like, I'm not in a mood to talk or I'm just in a grumpy mood or I'm very kind of like self reflective or melancholic. And if you bump into me in a moment like that, like you're the opposite of this, you seem to be very joyful and effusive with people in the best possible way. But like I've had people like come over, like, well, I won't say who, but someone on my street

said their wife thinks I don't like them. Oh, no, that's not it. That's not I think she's terrific. It must have been that she encountered me on a couple of occasions where I just I wasn't in the mood to talk. I wasn't in a kind of talkative, friendly mood. And I've tried to justify that by saying, like, look how authentic I am. Like I don't say those words to myself, but I just I might say to myself,

yeah, I just I'm not good at putting on a face. Like, I'm just that's never. Yeah. And that we all justify our own sins. Like, you know, you know, I'm the kind of person that's probably not true. What you're about to say. Like, let your wife tell me the kind of person you are. That's probably true. You know, but I read Thomas.

You shouldn't be that type of person. Yeah, that's right. And Thomas Aquinas said in this Thomas. You shouldn't be that type of person. Yeah, that's right. And Thomas Aquinas said in this article that you shouldn't be that type of person. And one of the objections was, aren't I being a hypocrite? Like, it was the very objection I was telling myself to justify my unfriendliness towards people. And he said that, no, you actually have a moral obligation to be friendly with people because people have to live with you like people in order for community to live in an ordered way and to progress towards friendship.

You have to be friendly to each other. One of the arguments he gives is you may not like enjoy this person, but you should love them in at least in how you love mankind as a whole. And we're just going to the opposite of the Dostoevsky idea of I love mankind, but I hate my neighbor. And yeah, so I just thought that was really good. Is that benevolence? Is that his article on benevolence? I think it's something different. It might be a, I'll look it up too while we talk because I found that really, that was really good.

So like, and I don't succeed at this all the time but I really try to like open myself up to people who I encounter at Leo's or wherever else in a way that I wasn't trying at all before. It's like if I wasn't in the mood, I wasn't in the mood. You're like setting the occasion for you. Question 114, the friendliness, which is called affability. There it is. Affability.

Weather friendliness is a special virtue. Yeah. Awesome. And he says it is. That is so beautiful. Yeah. Yeah, because you're just, I mean, just as you can get into the occasion of sin, you can set the occasion of virtue for somebody else. And just having that warmth does it.

Yes. That's really good. Yeah. I have a question. Go for it. So we're talking about friendships and genuine friendships and friendliness. But since we're on the internet and we're talking about demands on people through the internet or from people you don't really know, would you guys talk a little about the phenomena that's developing on the internet of parasocial

friendships? Yeah, you've brought that up to me before. And do you understand this? It's the idea that someone thinks they know you because they watch you all the time. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Even if they don't consciously think it, the brain starts to develop a similar connection to a person who's never been met in.

Right. So like Thursday feels that way towards Brett Cooper, for example. She works with the daily wife. I'm just joking. This bit is getting out of hand. The more negatively you react, the longer life it's gonna have.

I know, but at this point I just have to, if I can see if I stop objecting, then the bit dies off, people are going to think the bit died off because it's true. I'd rather object. What's wrong with Brett Cooper? Who's Brett Cooper? Thursday is obsessed. He's got a photo behind him there. And that's her. Yeah. It's a woman who works for Daily Wire. Okay, cool. Okay. Speaking of friendship, Bob Lesniewski cut my hair last night.

And can you see he actually cut my head? Oh yeah. Twice. Twice. Hold on. Can you zoom in on my head or can you? No, because Jacob's head is in the way. Can you see that cut line?

That is a large cut. Yeah. I didn't even really feel it. I just started bleeding. He's like, oh, dude, I'm so sorry. And I'm like, I didn't even feel it. Why did he say ouch or something? Was he using trimmers?

Yeah, he was putting a part in my hair. How did he do it with trimmers? Aren't those supposed to not be able to cut you? Yeah, I don't know. He said he had sharp ones before. Maybe he pressed too hard.

I don't know. But that is another example of friendship. Cutting your friend in the head. No, but like that that is another example of friendship. Cutting your friend in the head. No, but like that that is another example of friendship, though, in all sincerity. You got to call my friend and be like, can I come to your house? You cut my hair. I'll bring a bottle of bourbon. He didn't drink the bourbon before cutting my head in case you wondered if that's how it happened. Yeah, I'm not convinced.

I was assuming that's how it happened. But yeah, so what were we talking about? Oh, paranormal. Yeah. But yeah, I know what we're talking about. Our power, paranormal. Yeah. Paranormal. Not what's a good parasocial social friendship. I'm going to look this up. What are you?

You know, I suppose that that is one of the greatest temptations from focusing on what's around you. Let me read you the definition. Parasocial relationships are one sided relationships where one person extends emotional energy, interest and time, and the other party, the persona, is completely unaware of the other's existence. Parasocial relationships are most common with celebrities,

organizations and or television stars, which is just a necessary outcome of of television and computer again and live streaming and YouTube. Right. Yeah. Well, Mike, we like to say at New Pauly is that we meet people online to get them off it. And I meet them online to get them over to locals. Yeah. yeah. MattFrag.locals.com slash support. Hey, we're both into that local thing. Yeah, yeah. It's exactly the same. Because you know, that's just where the world is right now, but it's not where your life

should be, you know? And so while we are not going to defeat the tyranny of the car in this generation, there will be a place for podcasts. If we, so much as we can transition and pivot our lives to being present and fully engaged. I mean, this is one thing that obviously I, we won't go into this, but one thing that we often have to kind of fight against people that live here and certainly

like what we do at Neapolitan is that people saying, well, you're just quietists. Like you just do local things. It's like, no, no, no, we want this for the whole world. We are just physically limited to our bodies and we can only do work here in Steubenville. And so that's like our main focus. All my occasions to grow in virtue are present, you know, within 10 feet of me, you know? And so that's, that's where my focus is. But obviously I agree with Benedict XVI and all the popes that we should have a world government. Just should look

very different from every other type of world government we've ever seen. Anyways, I say that as a preface, not to actually get into it, but the, but the, a lot of people say like, look, like if you pull away from news and all this, these other things, it's like you're like pulling away from the fight. And I say, it's like, this is the first time I've ever felt engaged in my life, you know, where I'm actually able to do something and see an impact You know where I can actually work for a goal and see it realized, you know The venerable Fulton Sheen talked about the vice of curiosity being rampant in this modern world is obsessed with daily news Yep

You know and and I he just has to be right John Paul the second did that in a private speech as well repeated This is the this same notion. It's like, how much can that actually change us? Thomas Aquinas says that the vice of curiosity is defined when knowledge can never be used. And this is a guy that studied metaphysics for his whole life. I mean, this is, and so there must be a way

of using metaphysics in a way that most of the information that we're consuming today is not going to change me. I might have the knowledge, but I'm not going to be somebody new. And that distinction between having and being is so fundamental to actually being Christian. So I- Yeah, you've heard of the circle of concern, circle of influence. So you have this circle of concern and that encapsulates all the things that you're concerned about,

including the things that you have power and authority over, like your family and your town and your friends and things like this. But the problem is when you spend your time in the circle of concern outside of the circle of which you have a lot of power over your, the circle of kind of authority and power shrinks. Because now I'm wasting my emotional and intellectual energy into what daily. Why? I'm not picking on daily. Why any news outlet is saying, and now I have less time to like work with you to do

something on downtown or work with my wife around the house or something like that. You see? Totally. And so you feel like you're like a man of the world reading your newspaper while your wife raises the children. I'm using an example maybe from 50 years ago, you know? But you're actually- Flipping through your phone. Yeah, you feel like you've got mastery over it, but really it's just you're robbing yourself

and those you love over the authority you ought to have and the dominion you ought to be exercising. To his question though, which we haven't got to. Yeah, but I think that it's kind of a, maybe it's not a necessary preface, but it might help us answer some of those questions, is that what am I being robbed of? What friendships am I being robbed of? Because I'm not giving my time, my talent, my treasure to the things that are the person that are actually right in front of me. What I thought about recently is like, if all of us Catholics just spent the

amount of time we spent listening to, let's just limit it to say political media, no matter who you're listening to, if we reduce that time and spent it reading the word of God, can you imagine where you spent like a lot of people spend at least an hour a day, like listening to a particular podcast. I met this one woman. She said she listens to three hours of political news a day. This podcast host, this podcast host, this podcast host. And I don't think any of those podcast hosts would endorse that.

Like, stop. Yeah, yeah, I think that's right. Did you have anything to add, though, about? I just I think the phenomenon is really interesting and it's more prevalent among younger people, especially because young people like middle and high schoolers are more atomized due to technology. And so the people, it used to be the people you would spend time with, the most time with are, you know, the kids in your neighborhood.

But now the people they spend the most time with are, you know, we've got teenagers who, the people they spend the most time with are 20 somethings who make YouTube videos or stream video games on Twitch or whatever. And then their brains develop connections to people who don't even know they exist. And that's like, I think that's really robbing

something of friendship from society. And that's why, I think that's really robbing something of friendship from society. And that's why I'm so interested in it, because I see, I've seen it happen and it's just like heartbreaking. Yeah. Well, I mean, this is the reason why Aristotle and Thomas continually jump back and forth between friendship and politics. And this is because the type of friends that we have are going to define the type of political order that we have and so if we're going to default to these kind of Para friends or whatever social social paranormal

I just like that Aliens really sort of relationships I mean we should like the type of relationships that we have are going to find the type of politics that we have and so if we are the type of relationships that we have are going to define the type of politics that we have. And so if we are okay with not like just letting this go on, not fighting it in first in ourselves and then in like helping real people that we know fight it as well, then we have just said, yeah, I'm okay with a different type of politics arising. I'm okay with a different type of social order arising. But if we're going to actually really feel the Christian call to welcome the kingdom of God here on earth, first in my heart, and then

emerging out from it, then we have to start like actually being not okay with a whole bunch of phenomena that are happening today and going through the hard effort of being a friend, like allowing others to have serious demand of my time and my effort. I have an anecdote, so I can't back this up, but somebody said that one of the reasons that the Jews have been so successful in America is that by the time that money leaves the community, it's switched hands like five or six times. Like people are investing in each other and they're supporting each other is the point I'm making. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I don't know. It's like if we live together and we're concerned about the same things, then we'll mutually enrich each other and bless each other as opposed to going to Walmart or Amazon. If I don't have to, then I can also buy from my neighbors and things like that. Well, can I back try and back that up? Yeah. So my dissertation was on money and I promise not to get into it too much. But but a number my neighbors and things like that. Can I try and back that up? So my dissertation was on money, and I promise not to get into it too much, but a number of the things that just kind of knocked me off my seat a number of times, I was just

kind of floored to learn, was coming from this text. And one of those things was this argument that continually comes up of that money takes a place for where love lacks, you know, and the way that I like to summarize it is I can either call it my friends to help me move my piano or I can call a moving company. In both cases I am dependent on other people to have the piano moved, but one I know, one group I know, the other I don't. One I'm relying on the currency of charity, the other I'm relying on the currency of money, you other, I'm relying on the currency of money,

you know, and so there's an occasion for intimacy in the one and alienation in the other. And so that was just one of those things like, man, that is hard truth to be perfectly honest for me. And don't we all want the former? Part of us doesn't want the latter, sorry, the former meaning the currency of friendship, because then we feel vulnerable and we are in a place of need and we have to admit it. I think a lot of us would rather give charity than receive it because we're embarrassed. We see our own need, right? That's true.

Yeah. But when speaking of moving a piano, I asked Bob Lesniewski if we could have his piano before he moved. He and several guys put their gigantic, obviously, all pianos are gigantic, I suppose, on a couple of dollies and like eight guys pushed it down the road on Lawson. I don't know if he were there or not, but we were all kind of drinking beer out the front and all of us lifted it in and, and you know, like there was a, I think the rugby

team or some of them came over to my house when I first moved and helping ripping up the stuff. And I was like, I was I wasn't embarrassed, but I felt what did I feel vulnerable because they were helping me and I wasn't helping them. Oh, yeah. And maybe I was helping them and allowing them to serve me. But I just felt like so humbled, humbled, maybe is the word. Yeah. And I wouldn't have felt that if I had to pay. Now, sometimes you're not in a situation where you have friends to be able to do that and you have to pay somebody to do that. But if I had to pay somebody to come and do that, I would just had expectations on them.

Hurry up, get out of my house. Like, let's get this done or you mess this up or you told me you would do this and you didn't do that. And the former experience was just so much more pleasurable and bonded me with these people. Yeah. But even that transition, like you felt humility in that. And that's beautiful, but I remember for me it was that uncomfortability of receiving was just because I still had that

kind of exactitude, friendship of utility type of orientation. Maybe that's what I have. Man, I need to, I need to, I need to pay them back. I need to, you know, figure out how to do this, but again, St. Thomas, you know, saw my objection or saw my heart early on, and need to, you know, figure out how to do this. But again, St. Thomas, you know, saw my objection or saw my heart early on. And he says, you know, these friendships, like the, when the society builds on friendship, what does that look like? It's not exactitude. It's not like there's some sort of like civil obligation between the two. When you pay somebody back and you should pay them back, it needs to be a spontaneous act of genuine love for the other

and that there becomes then a holy competition of gift giving one to the other. And so it's actually a really helpful thing is that one gift should be met with reciprocity by another gift, but it shouldn't be exact, shouldn't have like a timer on it. It should just be something that's spontaneous and real. And then that's how society really does develop, is that we are just constantly trying to outdo one another in the gifts that we

give. But, sorry, I was trying to get back to your comment about the admirable things of the Jewish communities here is that when I was looking through and saying like, well, then how, if money takes place for where love lacks, that means that money kind of has this like dirty taint on it. Like, how do I then like use it well? You know, and I was looking at like Bonaventure and St. Augustine, they're saying, well, how do you use money? Well, you give it all away. It's like, well, that's not like using it, right? It's not like using it as an exchange, right? You're like fleeing from it.

And that's obviously their main point. St. Jerome, St. John Chrysostom, they say that too often. But one thing that is really helpful also is and is like a clear way of using, is like actually investing in someone because the person that you've invested in, you've actually married in some sort of a joint activity. The societas is the word that comes up in Latin, and it's also used to speak about the relationship of a man and a woman, a husband and a wife. And so, within an investment, like you say that the Jewish community, like before a dollar leaves,

it's been passed around five times because they're investing in one another, but that's actually uniting them. It's not that kind of money versus friendship scenario. That is money for the sake of friendship scenario. And so, I mean, I just think it's the coolest thing that you've built the cigar lounge, you know, and all the other things that people are doing in town,

you know, the grocery box things where you're giving money to your friend because you want to raise up the dignity of their life. I mean, that's the type of society that I wanna live in. That actually sounds like something I wanna be in and stay in. Yeah, when I first discerned moving to Stubbleville and I was sitting in a coffee shop with Mark Barnes, he said something, he said a lot of things that

have really always stuck with me. I'd never said that to his face, but behind his back. Good thing you won't hear that. Yeah, don't tell him. Oh well, yeah. He said something to the effect of like, this town needs you. Like, where you live now, like if you died, dude, he's like, no one would care. Like, I mean, he was probably speaking more generally of people in large cities, but he's like, here, like we actually need each other, you know? And so it is cool. It is cool. So like the first Fridays that we have here where we do street parties and

when Mark writes to me and says, hey, can you pay to have a chair like that we can, you know, one of these big wooden benches. And it's like, of course, it's like, how cool. I'm honored to be a part of this wonderful thing that we're doing. And it is beautiful. It's beautiful. I want to close the loop on this friendliness thing we brought up earlier. No, don't be. This comes from question one 14 from the seconda secundai.

And here's the main response. He says, since virtue is directed to good, wherever there is a special kind of good, there must needs be a special kind of virtue. And here is his argument, right, for why friendliness is a special kind of virtue. He says, good consists in order and it behooves man to be maintained in a becoming order towards other men as regards their mutual relations with one another in point of both deeds and words so that they behave towards one another in a becoming manner. Hence the need of a special virtue that maintains the becomingness of this order. And this virtue is called friendliness. Yeah. So that's why you shouldn't be a jerk just because you're out of

sorts in the morning. Get yourself a cup of coffee. Different personalities though, man. It's tough. I mean, I am very kind of melancholic and sort of self kind of reflective. And my wife, if she didn't know she's depressed and I don't know what that was. We'll see. It's just someone.

Okay. I couldn't hear through the headphones. That's like my wife would probably say something like she doesn't know she's depressed until she's been that way for about a week. You know, like my wife's very extroverted and an outward processor. So sometimes we'll be talking. I'm like, why didn't you tell me this has bothered you? She's like, I didn't know until I'm saying it now.

Which is kind of, whereas I'm the opposite, I'm always like deeply thinking about things. And so like from that state, it's sometimes difficult when I'm encountering someone to like get out of my head. So I think it takes more effort for me than it might for some, for her, let's say. Yeah, yeah. No, I think I'm more like Cameron in that way.

Yeah. Is Alice maybe a happy middle? She, yeah, I think she is kind of a happy middle. Yeah, good call. She doesn't always, like the first time I saw her sad, she was like, wow, I just like, didn't really know what this is like.

She like said something like that. How about the first time you saw her like that? Yeah, I mean, there was there's a time a couple of years ago. She's like, yeah, I'm just not happy. And it's like, it's very strange. Wow.

What a blessed thing to realize. Yeah. I want to read a quote from C.S. Lewis. I read it to you the other day in the cigar lounge, and it's so glorious that I thought we should read it. And then we'll take a break after this and then we've got a ton of questions from our local supporters.

Sweet. But let's see here if I can find it. This is from the man, the myth, the legend, C.S. Lewis. He says, in a perfect friendship, this appreciative love is, and what is appreciative love? He's talking about philia. Sorry, the, um, yeah, this comes from the four loves. Yeah. It just is a present.

He says that, um, friendship philia is, is the least biological of the loves are like least natural because you need Eros to make kids and you need Sturge to rear them, to breed them. But this is like friendship is almost something superfluous. It's like a joy added up on top. Now, of course in our natures we still need it to actually be fulfilled human beings. But is he saying like it's less kind of grounded in our biology? And so it's just this full appreciation of like who you are.

That's awesome. Yeah, so this appreciative love is I think, often so great and so firmly based that each member of the circle feels in his secret heart humbled before the rest. Sometimes he wonders what he's doing there among his betters. He is lucky beyond dessert to be in such company, especially when the whole group is together,

each bringing out all that is best, wisest or funniest in all the others. Those are the golden sessions, when four or five of us after a hard day's walk have come to our inn, when our slippers are on, our feet spread out towards the blaze and our drinks at our elbows, when the whole world and something beyond the world opens itself to our minds as we talk, and no one has any claim on or any responsibility for another, but all are free men and equals, as if we had first met an hour ago, while at the same time an affection mellowed by the years enfolds us. Life, natural life, has no better gift to give. Who could have deserved

it? Thoughts? Let's just let that go. Yeah, it is. It is the greatest. And I don't think that we allow ourselves to recognize that truth as much as we want it to, you know, as much as we want to. He's like, yeah, yeah, but that's just something that's, you know, an occasion in life. That's not the way it can be all the ways. And Jesus comes and says, no, no, no, no, that's the way it really should be. Like, that's what I created this for. I created this out of love. I created this for love. I created that so that that might be the, you know,

the joy of the day, the day, you know? And then I just, I think that we rob ourselves too often of what life could actually be like. And we're maybe scared of thinking that it's possible or we're, or worry that it couldn't actually of getting invested in it, you know, that it's too good to be true. We have a lot of questions that are very practical, kind of like how do I become a friend with somebody? What do I do to restore friendship after? So we'll get to that in a minute, but just a couple of things here that stuck out to me, struck out to me, stuck out to me.

Which one is it? I don't know. Um, it's so beautiful, man. And that I know exactly what he's talking about. You know, when you're talking with friends and there's just this. I love that this mellowed by the years. So there's no performance necessary, nor is there any fear that I'll be misunderstood. Or if I am, I'll be given the benefit of the doubt.

And so I can speak openly. I can speak freely. This is what you can't do on social media. You can't speak openly. People will not give you the benefit of the doubt. They are there precisely to jump on you when you've misspoke. But whereas in friendship, because I know you or because you know me, if I say something that sounds completely out of sorts or maybe even evil, you might be like, what did you mean by that?

And I'll tell you when hopefully you misunderstood me. But I don't have to- Okay, that is evil. That is terrible. You are a horrible person. Yeah, but there's this like, I don't have to fear. I don't have to fear being attacked. I don't have to fear. I don't have to fear being attacked. I don't have to fear being

like I don't have to fear that you're trying to misunderstand me or manipulate me. But I don't understand this bit, Jacob. He says. No one has any claim on or any responsibility for another, but all are free men and equals. Is this not is this not different to what we said a moment ago about this, this kind of obedience to each other and this desire to bend over backwards for each other? And what does he mean?

It'd be great to, um, great to get them in this room to ask them. I, I suspect that it's not a contradiction, but let's kind of push it as far as we can. So insofar as, I just kind of mentioned St. Thomas saying that a gift should be reciprocated, but it doesn't have to be. It's kind of like a, like you and I are on different sides of a stream and I toss down a bridge, you know, that's the gift that I give in you. But if you don't walk across it, it's kind of like, oh, okay, well, that's too bad. That hurts. Like you feel that void, you know, in some way, even though you are not required, you know, at all.

You know, it's just love going unfulfilled in that regard, because gift is some sort of sacramental effort to unite with the other. It's the mode by which we unite with the other person. If love is both that benevolence, that goodwill we have for the other, and uniting with them, gift is kind of a means to do so. It's that bridge that we can walk across.

But that is totally free. You can't force it. You can't force it. You can't demand it at all. But also that obedience that we, that I was mentioning earlier, like the power that you have over me, it's not just like a claim that you have. It actually arises in my soul because I love you, you know, it's, you can ask me to do something and I will just do it.

But that's based upon the disposition and orientation that's in me. Not over some authority that you have, you know? Does that make sense? Yeah, no, it's not an external constraint. It comes from within. And we could still say that it's like bad if I don't do it. I think that's, I think that's actually fair.

So this is where I would love to have someone push back on me is to say like, if I'm free at home and I'm just like by myself and there's nothing going on and you ask me to come in or like Cameron asked me to go like pick up the kids or something like that and drop them off at your house. And it's like, I should be like condemned for not doing that. You know, like that's bad, even though there's like total freedom.

But wouldn't you say condemned by like someone who's in a place to condemn you, like your wife? No, I mean, maybe like God would condemn me for that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry. Well, I was just thinking that it, well, fair enough. Maybe I misunderstood, but like it would be inappropriate for like like the closer someone is to you, the more they understand

where you're at, what you could have done, why you chose not to do it. So I could imagine, for example, if, you know, let's use the same analogy, but to use it backwards, if your wife asked me to go do something. Yeah. I like to look after Blaze or something like that. Yeah. And if I am like, I don't want to do it. So no. And then my wife like, I don't want to do it. So no. And then my wife finds out I had nothing on and I'm just watching King of the Hill all

day. She might be like, what? Like then she could kind of correct me in a way that Thursday probably couldn't because he doesn't know my world and he doesn't know what I was doing that day necessarily. Right, right. And I guess it's that it's I just meant by it that you could be correctable. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And some sense, yeah.

That's it. But I would be interested if somebody had a pushback on that. Yeah. Mm hmm. All right, let's take a break. And when we come back, we have a bunch of questions from our local supporters. Sweet.

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She says me too, Matt. I'm a melancholic introvert. It's not easy for us people. We're going to say, what is this? I am I, you know, I, I trying to get our little land ready for us to move in. Is this a boogie? What are you gonna say? What is this? I am, you know, trying to get our little land ready for us to move into. Is this a boogie? What are you doing?

No, no, no, no, no, it's a thorn. It just came out of my hand after six days of being in there. Feels great. Yeah, yeah. Yes. Just celebrating this moment. That's wonderful. We're sharing it amongst friends.

We're sharing in your joy. Thanks, dude. Common goose. All right, so we've got a bunch of questions here it amongst friends for sharing in your joy. Thanks, dude. A common good. All right. So we've got a bunch of questions here and this is good because I think this will kind of get to the practicality of friendship and everything around it. Should or could you repair an estranged relationship between old friends? Say well, should I say that?

Well, St. Patrick, probably not his real name. Context, one of my best friends from high school, a girl and a good friend from college, also a girl, started dating several years, started dating several years ago. Ever since they started dating, they've distanced themselves from the friend group to the point of complete social isolation.

The ultimate concern is that my high school friend is not a Christian and has drawn my college friend away from her family and her faith because she's now in a gay relationship and her parents are Christian and not approving. So now instead of having one dear friend whose conversion salvation I'm praying, I have got two. I'm a little confused, but I don't know if the context is, what's difficult about giving an answer when you're talking about like a morally questionable relationship is you really need all the details

in order to kind of answer this. I'm not sure how much of that you got, but the question was, should or could you repair an estranged relationship between old friends? Well, yeah, I would, I think that is maybe an easier question than placing it in the context of their situation because I really would like to have more of those details. Yeah.

Is that, yeah, absolutely. Like reconciliation is so important. And sometimes, but oftentimes that shouldn't be rushed, you know, like sometimes time is needed. I've had a number of like being a little bit too exuberant. I've had a number of friendships that have kind of like hit a Hit that place where we've we've become a strange and pretty much all of them have been repaired actually And it's just one of my great joy. There's a couple that you know other circumstances kind of hasn't allowed or whatever but

you know, other circumstances kind of hasn't allowed or whatever. But it's been one of my great joys in my life that I can, like, we've been through a rocky patch and I genuinely call these people my friends again, you know, and that habit of soul, like that wishing well, that friendship is restored in them and in me. And I'm working through some others right now, you know, and I pray that might happen. But I just think that that will, you know, it's just kind of that classic thing, it's like, what's your reaction going to be when you see Him in heaven, you know, if you both have the grace to get there? So, like, oh, you're here. Or it's like, man man just praise be the God. We've made it together, you know, and I think that's that's kind of one of the things that kind of keeps me on track to keep praying and, you know, asking for forgiveness when I need to. And so yeah, yeah, conflict resolutions are so important in friendships because you really can't be around each other for a great deal of time without irritating or upsetting the other either unintentionally or doing something that's actually vicious.

Right. But in my experience, when I've had the courage and the other person or the and all the other persons had the courage to sort of address this issue, it strengthens the friendship. Yeah. Yeah. And I find that if I've been able to have that kind of conflict resolution with a friend, it almost like convinces the two of you that your friendship is stronger than you thought and even strong enough to endure those things, which gives you a sort of freedom around the other now, because you know it won't be easily broken. Totally. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's right. I won't say his name, but something like that happened here. He just like, was just being a total jerk.

And then afterwards called me up and said, hey, you just really need to forgive me. Like I wouldn't, first communication, like I wasn't talking bad about him, nothing. Just like, and this is why I appreciated it so much. He's like, hey, you know, if like, if we're gonna like achieve anything here, you know, like in student, like living together as friends and communities, like, hey, you know, if like, if we're going to like achieve anything here, you know, like in student, but like living together as friends and communities, like we got to

just like get beyond this. So like the guy that wronged me told me that I had to forgive him. And I was like, you're so right. And it was like a total learning moment for me. And that is like, wow, I feel so much more connected to you because you could even say that to me. I could just, I mean, sorry. I mean, kind of, but if he wronged you because you could even say that to me. Like, I just, I mean, sorry. But if he wronged you, it ought to be him apologizing. I didn't even care at that moment. I didn't care at all. I mean, he, I don't know. He probably said, I'm sorry at some point. So,

I'm not trying to, but I just, I so appreciated that directness and just like, there's no elephant in the room. We're just talking about it. You know, it was just such a grace. And I, uh, and I do have a super deep friendship with him. And yeah, if you're, if you're opposed to any kind of conflict, then you won't be able to have deep friends. I don't think cause what are the chances that you and another person will get together, have a common love, share life in common and not have a misunderstanding. Um, it's going to happen. So if you're just going to leave whenever you have a misunderstanding, then you're not going to have friends, I don't think. Yeah, I think that's right.

Jacob says, I always get the question, can guys and girls be just friends? Never really know how to answer it, but I think they can. If you disagree or agree, please explain. But can I put it to you first? Well, I mean, I'm curious. Yeah, I mean, my first thought is, of course, men and women can be friends. If friendship means to will the good of the other, to have a common good that you're associated with and working towards, then yes, of course. But I would say this, and I haven't thought this through, but like as a married man, I'm completely uninterested.

And I think I should be uninterested in having friendships or new friendships with women, let's say, where I spend time with them apart from my wife. I even have a friend who I won't name her. I like her a lot. Like we're really close and well, that's not true. We're not really close, but we enjoy each other. But whenever she texts me, she'll, it'll be me and her husband. Because we're all friends.

Like we all know each other. So it's not weird to have the guy in the text chain. He's not an accountability partner. He's another buddy. No, but I'm sure I haven't asked her this and I wouldn't because I think it would be an appropriate question. But I think it is to try to like,

no, I shouldn't be having an ongoing text relationship with like someone else's husband when I'm married. Yeah. But since we all like each other and that we all want to see each other's text, you see, like I say, I wouldn't be interested in having

a friend. If by friend you mean spending unnecessary time together. Yeah. What do you think? Yeah, I know. I think the same thing. I mean, just when I got married, there were a friendship with women that just totally changed. And I think that is that reveals that we really had a friendship, you know, that it was like a real friendship, that it had the change, you know,

and it was appropriate and good. And we were very happy that it changed because it meant that there's something that was great came along. So I suppose that, but there's, I mean, see, Lewis, maybe he could just get away with saying things more back in the 1940s than we can today.

But I would encourage people to go back and, you know, this guy reread his chapter on friendship. And actually, there's some lectures that we have, see, Lewis's own voice. So it's so cool. If anyone spoke like that today, you'd be like, you pretentious person. There's no way you actually sound like that. You know, he actually changed his accent, you know, because he's raised in Ireland. So he worked on making it English. Yes. Yeah.

Funny. But anyways, he has some good things to say about like, he doesn't trust the man who finds himself only content in the with the friendship of women and stuff like that. Yeah. Well, I'll add this too, that prior to my serving with net ministries, I didn't have a lot of close guy friends, but I did have a lot of close girlfriends. Why do you think that was? I think socially, unfortunately, it was appropriate to bear one's heart to a female, but not really appropriate to do that with a male. We would, unless you had like five beers in you and you could say, I love you, man, like

an idiot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, like, you know, but, um, but unfortunately there was a sort of stigma and I don't know if that's because of the sort of gay agenda that seemed to have poisoned male relationships to the point where to show any affection would be to suspect. I don't know. Maybe women just appreciated a man sharing more of his heart with her. And so it was more open to listening. I don't know. As a teenage boy may not have been. but I would find, and I found it was, I wasn't alone in this.

Other men said the same thing, that they just didn't have deep friendships with other men where they felt like they could share their heart together. But when I serve with net ministries, one of the things they require of you is to have a strong brotherhood on the team and a strong sisterhood on the team. So you've got like 12 missionaries, six blokes, six girls. And it was important that you not share intimate details with a girl because attractions might form and then your eyes get taken off the mission and onto the Susie or whatever.

And it was there that I realized it's always Susie. It's always Susie. It was the only it was there that I realized like,, no girl can be a brother to me. I finally tasted the goodness of a male healthy friendship and it was just wonderful. It was only there that I was able to do it. Yeah. I wish I could articulate why that is, you know, better other than to say that, you know, there's something that there's a potential in the male female

relationship that could develop where there's really not in the male male friendship. You know, other than that, like kind of latent potency, I'm not really sure what it is, but something. Yeah. But I guess this fellow might be asking, like, what if you're both single? Yeah, I was guess this fellow might be asking like what if you're both single? Yeah, I was gonna ask Yeah, I feel like that was that is a That's the marriage thing is like kind of easy cut and dry easy like you there's a little there are lines You have to but like when they're yeah, but I think that potency you think I mean sorry for me

Isn't it shouldn't use that word that like ability to take things further? Make it more into does make it more awkward. Well, it just- Because you have to clarify. But that's real, a potency is real. You know, it's like a real, real like development thing that could bud and bloom. You know, it's there.

Yep. So it has to be addressed at some point. That's my point. Yeah, like things change as a result of its presence. That makes things awkward. And yeah. Yeah, yeah, like things change and that makes things that makes things awkward and yeah and Then like two single guys and girls ever say I don't like you like that You don't like me like that, but can we just like they don't probably do that usually I mean

Jacobs looking at me because he knows this happened to be with it the last Same men these days have a difficulty even expressing their desire to have, you know, relationships with a woman, much less saying I want to have a relationship of friendship and that alone with you. Yeah, you guys don't really say that to one another either, though. You know, I mean, I've there's been one. This is what to say, like, say, like, I like I want to be your friend or something like that.

You know, I mean, these things are organic. No, I like that. You know, I mean, these things are organic. No, I know that. But what I'm saying is like, if you and I become friends, I never have to say, and this is all we'll ever be. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. But with a girl, there's always the sense that, well, this could be more like you were

talking about with the potency. And so it would seem that in that relationship, it could require a sort of. Yeah, depending on how she's feeling and you're feeling or whatever else. Yeah, then I think so. There's really been, actually, now getting away from the point, but there's one occasion, somebody I kind of recently met in England,

and he had just moved, and he kind of took me and another one of our, one of my close friends to lunch. And at the end he goes, you know, you know, we're here now. And he's like, you know, it'd be really great if we were friends. And it's like totally like, like just said it, like, I want to be your friend. I feel very uncomfortable. Oh, I found it.

The way that he said it was so charming. And now I still count him one of my dearest friends. I suppose it could be said in a way that didn't come off as needy and awkward. It wasn't that at all. Yeah, but I could see it a thousand ways in which it could. Absolutely. Yeah. Hey there. Yeah, I really want friends. Would you be my friend?

But anyways, I say that to show that how rare it is that you could ever have that organic move. And so probably the. I like this question from Chris Easley. He says, what advice can you give for finding the balance between befriending someone to bring them to the fullness of the truth and not merely seeing them as a project? Oh, yeah. Well, because I think the answer probably lies exactly in that you want their best interest in mind. It kind of goes back to that conversation of like,

it's not like a, it's not like a mere tribalism, whereas like, I want you on my team. It's like, I want your good. And that will require you being on my team. Yeah. I think that's the perfect answer. I've brought this up in the past. Like Cameron Batuzzi and I were friends for a while before he finally decided to become Catholic. But I never, his becoming Catholic was never like a prerequisite for our ongoing relationship. Ever. And that would be true too, if I was friends with a Muslim or a Jew or an atheist. If we care for each other and want what's best for each other, then maybe I'll be disappointed in his choices. Maybe he'll be disappointed in mine. But I think as soon as,

Maybe he'll be disappointed in mine. But I think as soon as yeah, no one likes being a project. Nobody. Yeah. When a Mormon knocks at your door and it seems like he just wants to have a chat. It's like, you know, he wants something, which is why you can't give your heart to him. You know? Yeah. I mean, he might be a good person. But I think it's really important that we take a holistic interest in our friends. Yes. Yeah, I think that's right.

Fixing this part that needs fixing. Jump back for the guy-girl thing. Sorry, this might not be a helpful point, but because guys have more in common with other guys, there's more opportunities for friendships to go deeper as well. So I suppose that that's just one of those other elements of why guys clump together at a party and girls go to the other side of the room. You know, and just recognizing and allowing that and not trying to like force it and also recognizing in you is like, why am I not doing that? If you're not doing that, it might just be something to take into into prayer and consideration. Yeah. Some men can feel intimidated by the company of men because of their own insecurities. CJ Sharp says, can you talk about friendship?

Do you know who this is? Yeah. CJ Sharp. He's my friend. And he's a local supporter. So now he's my friend. Do I know him? Yeah, you do. That's parasocial. Who's CJ then? CJ moved to town a few months ago. He works for the city. He has a couple of beautiful daughters. Eleanor is, if he told you, I think he mentioned to you,

last time the three of us were together, he mentioned to you Peter Crave's line about Sam just wanting to be at the end of the day with Eleanor on his lap and his daughter's thing. Oh, of course. Okay, it's hard because his, what do you call those things? Not emoji. The image.

His image is like the Sagra Hutt of Jesus. I knew that wasn't CJ. So it was difficult to make the connection. Okay, he says, can you talk about friendship when it comes to more verbal, less verbal activities? Example, coming over dinner or drinks versus working out or playing sports. Oh, yeah. Well, you know, so when the I think about for the development of friendship is that there's some sort of like

necessity in the activity that you're doing, obviously, like luxury activities are fine to do, like, you know, working out within reason or like playing sports within reason or whatever. But like CJ, you know, he came over to my house on the land and taught me how to put in vinyl flooring, you know, like that is something that I appreciated even more than like the dinners like together that I felt because there was like,

you know, the one was just kind of a great cherry on top. Of course I enjoy that. It's so much fun. But that was just like, you just, you just like enabled me to do something that otherwise I could not do. And that necessity actually built, I find, builds more affection because it begins to change your life in a real way. And that's really what's so rich about friendship is that it really starts to change your life,

not just your evenings, you know, not just like an evening or something like that. Kathleen Marie says, what do you do when you're always the one instigating things in a friendship? So when you feel like you're trying to carry this thing, you're like, I do want to, I keep saying the words do life with you, like live life in common with you. I want that. But there's probably times we just talked about it here, right? We've got so many people in this town that we could be friends with, but we can't because there's too many of them.

And so naturally there's going to be instances where someone would like to be in a more, what would you say, intimate relationship than the reciprocator does. Yeah. The non-reciprocator in this instance? Uh, yeah, I don't think I have anything profound to say about that. You just sometimes have to recognize that, not be hurt by it and move on. Something like that. I think that's actually really good advice. Yeah.

Yeah. Back to this idea of like, no one owes you anything and you wouldn't want them to feel obligated to owe you anything. Yeah. I mean, if you found out that they felt obligated to get back to John or whatever, you'd feel so embarrassed that you'd probably wouldn't want to be friends anymore anyway. Totally. Yep. Yeah.

Does Jacob feel this is, let's see, so the warrior, does Jacob feel that working in the technology space and the nature of how technology is made and used in society can be the be in the lifestyle of going back to working with your hands and working in community, something like a half going back to your roots and half using technology towards an ordered Catholic and lifestyle. Uh, I was a little confused. Yeah, I am as well.

Whether or not it's like using technology or building it. Yeah. This because it seemed like it first he was talking about building it and then using it. Did you understand that Thursday? Does Jacob feel that working in the technology space and the nature of technology is made and used in society can be in the law? I see he's asking, can we have a do we have to just cut technology out entirely and go with their hands or can there be a middle ground

in terms of developing friendship or just working? I mean, because I think we're just, so there's, let me get a highfalutin and I'll try and bring it back down, is that Pope John Paul II, St. Hesimus Annus, talks about structures of sin. These are institutions that we have built that didn't just like arise out of themselves, kind of to be generous, but rather that we constructed.

And what we build emerges out of a disposition of virtue or it emerges out of a disposition of vice. Structures of sin emerge out of a disposition of vice, and they are constructed in such a way, He says, that alienate a person from another and make the gift of self to another difficult to achieve. Okay, so I like to kind of think about, like for an easy example, like modern insurance versus what they had back in the days, like if your house burned down, we help you build a new one, you know, it's like, now we're like putting money into a pot. Okay, given that we are in a structure of sin, we can't get out of it easily. It doesn't just depend on my decision.

It depends on our decision. And that means that we have to live within it. Certain things that are maybe even inherently disordered are ordered within that structure. So, like a classic example of this in moral theology is killing. Killing is inherently disordered. There is, because you're taking a life, there's like, on the face of it, it is wrong. Given a certain context, it can become right, just war, for instance. And so these are like examples are very commonplace.

And so I think that the kind of the questions about technology might fall into that category within the modern world is like, how much can we actually flee this? You know, we would love to be able to do that more and more so that as John Paul the second says, we can default towards that gift of self towards another more and more, but we just cannot make that leap. It's just not possible. Like turning to that insurance situation, there's some insurances that we can absolutely flee, no problem, but things like health, in the movement towards health sharing is a great genius pivot that starts to get us further from the modern forms of insurance and closer to that personal form of giving. But because the whole

world is run by money now and that we don't, very, very, very few of us own the means of production where we can generate our own livelihood, we're going to have to make some pivots there. And those decisions are ordered within this disorder. Yeah, that's really good. That's really well put. I'm trying to think of an analogy,

but I'm afraid I'll obscure everything, but here we go. So would it be sort of like if a piece of hospital equipment was created through immoral means and maybe this has kind of become commonplace, it's still a moral thing for me to take my child to this doctor who will use that piece of equipment to save their life, and it would be wrong not to. And this could be considered a structure of sin that we have to somehow, not the device, but the means by which it was brought about has to be. Yeah, but if we have it, so like, I'm not sure whether or not, this is a good example, but say like, I have no idea how the CAT scan developed or something like that.

It could have been through extremely immoral means, like a real giving into the fear of death, you know, the vice of fear or something like that. Say, I don't know, I have no idea. If we convert society totally, we're all Christian, I bet we would keep the cat scan, you know, whereas I don't think we would keep many of the institutions that we have, like, other, that demand that we constantly activate. So, would structures of sin have more to do with institutions or objects or both? Yeah, they're more about institutions. Yeah, yeah, like things that need constant human

activity to upkeep. Gotcha, gotcha. Yeah, yeah, like things that need constant human activity to upkeep. Yeah, yeah. Gotcha. Um, Ralph says best advice on making old friendships feel new and ensuring new friendships grow old. So how can we spice up our friendship? Three steps to a spicy friendship.

Um, what was that? Three steps to a spicy friendship. That is not gonna be a clip. It's definitely gonna be a clip. So I think those questions about like, how did your friendship develop in the first place? Well, precisely because you at the same time saw something and said,

what? You too? That's great. We like that third, you know? And then started to work at it. If you want to do something else, invite the friend to build up another good thing together. You know, so like, you know, the easy example is like, go down to the food kitchen and serve for, you know, together, you know, one day a week or something like that. I mean, something like that. If the, if friendship emerges out of action,

then find a new one. Yeah. Yeah. It would be kind of, it would be one thing if I said to you on Thursday, Hey, you want to get a drink after this? It'd be another thing if we all agreed, let's go to paintball after this. We all agree to it. It's not like I'm telling you we have to do it. And we all, that excitement would cause this new experience and this third love. Totally. Yeah. We talk about, we remember it. Yeah. What I found too, though, is that a community. Let's do that. We should.

You actually as soon as you said it, I was like, that sounds like a lot of fun. Let's do it. Look into it. We'll make it happen. We'll get like, oh, we get video cameras and we get that. Bros. Yeah, go pros, go bros. And then we could upload it here to YouTube. Yeah, like community often. Takes a multitude of monotonous interactions. It doesn't often have this like one intense situation

where we're now friends. It often does. Nothing seems to have shifted. It just sort of gradually becomes a more trustworthy, comfortable relationship. Do you think? Yeah. That's been my experience where it's like, when do we become friends? I don't know. We just we kind of. So to his question of ensuring new friendships grow old,

I think it's just to spend time with each other. Yeah. And you know. Yeah, yeah, I think that's right. Luke W says any advice on how to maintain friendships? I'm pretty good at making friends, but pretty horrible at maintaining the friendship. I think I just expect the friendship to last without much work because this is how it has always worked in my really close friendships. God bless my dudes. Just join Locals, Matt.

Way more extra content than I expected. Keep up the good work. Thanks, Luke. Sweet, dude. That's awesome. Yeah, I think it just is work, but a great way to get through it. We talked earlier about feeling a little bit awkward when we are receiving a benefit from somebody. So ask them to do something for you. Cause people feel way less awkward about that.

Who said that? I think that was a president who said that. Really? It was this idea that if you move into a new neighborhood, you should knock on the next door neighbor's house and ask for a cup of sugar. Oh yeah, who said that? Who said that?

Good luck. We didn't give you much to go on. Yeah. Figure it out, Catholic Jamie. Yeah. But that that is interesting. Like when because people are embarrassed to like, yeah, I've come to Britain, I've just moved to the neighborhood and I brought you this. Thanks. But when you request something of somebody, it helps them trust you. Yeah. And that necessity is self in their debt in a them trust you. Yeah. And that necessity again. Because you put yourself in their debt in a way.

Yep. Yeah. I was at the, our land the other day, like I can't remember what task we were doing, but Alice drove off with my keys. Oh yeah, I was dropping some of that off in our truck and I left my phone at home. Cause it was like the weekend.

Oh, this is like electric keys. Like you don't plug them into the wheel. Is that why she was able to drive off with it? Oh, two cars, two cars. Yeah, yeah, we took two cars. So she was bringing the kids. I had to transport something. And so she drives off. I don't have keys and I don't have a phone. You know? And so I had to like walk over to like the next guy's house. It was like a, it wasn't far. It's like a

half mile away or something like that. I was like, Hey, I'm moving down the street. And it was really awkward when you started screaming at Alice over the phone. You didn't be in this guy's house. Yeah, I think it was great. It was so much fun. But I say just joking in case people think I'm not joking. You got to be careful on the Internet. Yeah, it's not. Yes, I felt bad for her.

He meant that she had the drive all the way back. So speaking of parasocial relationships, Ricardo M. asks Mr. Imam one, will you be my friend? Parasocial doctor. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. So no, I won't because you. Yeah. And then two, do you have any book recommendations on co-op business models?

I read the servile state, which you recommended. Oh, cool. Co-op business models. No, I don't. Like a how-to on that. Otherwise, John Maday's towards a truly free market might be a good next one to grab. Tim Bryant says, how does one find a friend? Been looking for a while for a good friend,

but can't seem to find one. I'm sorry. Tim, can you move out of the city? That might be a honestly, I think part of the radical move that Christians have to do to be like an identifiable person as following Christ again is going to demand us moving, you know, kind of once and forever, you know, move the last move, the end all moves. Yeah. No, that's a good question. I mean, if you're in an environment where you've got to drive 40 minutes just to see

someone that you kind of know, that's not going to be conducive to the growing of a friendship. But if you are able to move to a town or an area that maybe has a vibrant Catholic community or something that you can sort of plug yourself into and your family into, if you're married, that might be what's required. Because here's a question that kind of is on the heels of that. Like how, how necessary is friendship and by friendship, I'm talking about what we mean by friendship and not some kind of,

how necessary is it? Like maybe he doesn't need one. Do people not need friends? Is that possible? Where they can just kind of go throughout their life and just have a few good friends they email from time to time. And I think those are the major exceptions. And we call them hermits. Yeah. You know, I was just thinking that. Yeah. So yeah, then no, I have nothing else to say, but it's a good point because I did actually think, well, one of the exceptions, I guess, would be a hermit or you think monks who live a very strict monastic rule. And so there isn't a lot of time for engagement. There's a sort of supernatural friendship in that we're praying and supporting

each other, but it's not what we usually mean when we say friendship. But I like that it's, it's, it's kind of like other things in life where it's like, yes, it's possible. But have you met you? It probably isn't, you know, like you have to have to be self aware to see if it actually is. It was Ben Franklin.

Ten minutes later, you're fired. That was not ten minutes based on what you gave me to go on. Cover sugar president. I don't know which country. So what did he say? What does it say? He who has once done you a kindness

will be more ready to do you another than he whom you yourself have obliged. That's pretty much exactly what we said. That is, and we said it as cool as that. You know, about the monk too, I mean, we can't dismiss the fact that the friendship with the saints are extremely real and their presence is not a joke. I would also say that because monks oftentimes

are like working, that their friendships towards their other brothers are going to be, maybe seem more utility based. Like, it's going to emphasize that part of the friendship because they're getting the cabbage and giving it to another, they're brewing the ale and then feeding one another, something like that. And with the hermit, like the people that are dropping off food are still like people that they're nourishing in prayer and there's some reciprocality there. That's there. I think that there's just part of our soul that is built to receive the person of another, you know. So it's gonna find it some way to do that if you're going to reach perfection. Ben says, just thank him for turning my economic world upside down. You got it.

Somebody's world is upside down with my. Also, I'm now homeless and could you send me $20? A Britain or Britain says, how can groups of men better encourage each other to strive for real masculinity or holiness and love for their wives and God, instead of pseudo masculinity and depravity proposed by our modern culture? It's, it's, it's so true. It feels like the more we've moved away from authentic substantive masculinity, the more we've felt the need to idolize the accidents of masculinity.

So I've got huge muscles and a beard and tattoos and no friends. Yep. Or no concern for my wife, but I am into porn and fornicate a bunch because I'm a dude. It's like, no, you got it completely backwards. Yeah. I sent you a couple of good ones in Slack. Oh, thank you. How can we encourage that?

I mean, you encourage that within friendship. I good ones in Slack. Oh, thank you. How can we encourage that? I mean, the, you, you encourage that within friendship. I mean, in order podcasts could do it, but they're so impersonal having someone in your life who can invite you to the great adventure of masculinity. Like you're, I'm responsible for my wife and children. I mean, to use an analogy, it'd be be like if we were kind of making our way over a war-torn field and I got to get them to safety. Hmm. Like I have to treat my life with that kind of seriousness It doesn't mean I can't have times of levity and playfulness obviously because I'm not actually being shot at but

this is a matter of But this is a matter of supernatural life and supernatural death. And if I don't know the game I'm in, I won't know how to play it. If I don't know the reality of heaven and hell and the effects of my actions, then I'll just I'll squander everything. So I need to come to know that God exists, that Jesus Christ is King, he's Lord, he's conquered, and He's calling me to, to pick up arms, but if I don't actually believe that, then it'll feel like laughing,

or it'll just be a distraction. Yeah. Yeah. I, yeah, I think this is like one of those where, I'm sorry, I keep harping on this, like necessity versus luxury thing, you know, because modern man is obsessed with externals, you know, with just like what you mentioned. And there's, it's just very strange that we, like so many guys get a major adrenaline rush

every day at the gym when like God gave us that so we could run away from lions, you know? And so, we're setting ourselves in the occasion of finding, or excuse me, we're setting ourselves in the occasion where we're tricking our own bodies of thinking that a luxury activity is a necessary activity. And so, part of the way that we can even help ourselves get out of that is actually in calling our friends to something deeper is like, let's do something that's actually necessary together. Let's build something that needs to be built together, say, you know? And part of that was going to be finding new skills that we otherwise didn't have. And I've been

super challenged by this and I can constantly be challenged. I'm constantly challenged by this living here in Steubenville is that there's just so many things that need to be be challenged, I'm constantly challenged by this living here in Steubenville is that there's just so many things that need to be done. And I'm very incompetent and incapable of these things. And I feel like a puny little man next to Dave Matthews and Robbie Pretzel, you know? So, you know, so like, but actually trying to figure these things out so that I can be more of a help to others

is, I just think is huge. But if we continue to just think about these external, like if we continue to be duped by this distinction of necessary and luxury things, then we're just not going to quite figure out the real stitches that will knit us together. Yeah, that's, that's really good. OK, question about maintaining friendships. How should we respond when friends quote unquote, those who shared fraternal friendship for many years, precipitate, precipitate. Yep. Precipitate their opinions about us and our failures by gossiping amongst themselves and then decide to inform us

about their decision to end relationships with us. One more time. Can you see that? Yeah, it's pretty intense. How should we respond when friends precipitate their opinions? What does he mean by precipitate? You mean share their opinions about us and our failures by gossiping amongst themselves and then decide to inform us about the decision to end the relationship with us?

I mean, I think you respond with sadness, but if someone doesn't want to be your friend, then. Yeah, I don't know else to do that. It's sad. It's really sad if someone hurts you. I was talking with Thursday the other day, we were doing a stream where I was talking about backbiting and what Aquinas has to say about it.

And I was sharing that, um, you know, when somebody comes and they just like rat on somebody else unnecessarily, I then learn not to share anything with them that I don't want shared. Totally. Like it's a great way to kill friendships. Yeah. If, if, if you want to start really gossiping, I don't mean like sharing the some sad thing that happened between you and a friend or something like that. But I mean, we all know the difference. And when someone just starts dragging someone's name through the mud and you know they don't

have the courage to address this person or they're choosing not to have the courage to address this person, it's like, I can't trust you. I can't share anything of my intimate life with you anymore. And I've just learned to do that. Yeah, I think that's right. And one thing that should be said is that like relationships can't, like they do at friendships and sometimes they even like should end, you know? Like you can abuse a friendship.

And if somebody is constantly abusing you, then you need to get away from that person. This is a really good point. I'm glad we got to this. Yeah, and fast, to be honest. I mean, yeah, I mean, this is kind of personal in some ways, but like there was someone that was kind of bullying my wife and it's like, wow, we should be like patient with him

and all this stuff and take time. And that was a huge mistake on my part. I regretted I should have done something sooner. Anyways, yeah, I've had to confess that. But sometimes you can think that you're taking a heroic stance, but as soon as friendship starts to feel like martyrdom, then that form of the relationship

needs to start to pivot and change. You know? Yeah, that's this is that's a great point. Kyle Whittington. What's up, buddy? He says, what's the threshold to get the three of you to chug those beers? I know Matt's not drinking, so one of you will have to do to. And Jacob's not drinking, so Thursday would have to do three. What other option do we have? It's awesome.

Kitty Barber says, my brother and his lifelong friends say, I love you on the phone. OK, my brother and his lifelong friends say, I love you on the phone when they say goodbye. And I think it's just the sweetest thing Can you please bring this up and encourage men to do this? I put the second part in there. Oh, oh I see Okay, it's not so much like that specific thing But just like when you're close with a male friend you should be willing to, like, be open that you have affection towards them. I don't know. I'm not necessarily for that. I think that one can express one's affection without having to use words that are usually relegated to romantic relationships. I think

you can use them and I don't think there's anything wrong with it, especially if both parties are reciprocal to it, but I wouldn't force it. Yeah. Alex Plato does that and I love it. Oh, yeah. It comes so naturally. It does. Yeah. Yeah. It's not at all forced and it's just like, yeah, man, I love you too. Yeah. So it's just wonderful. I love spending time with you. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, that's the worst.

I've gotten that before. That's great. This is actually funny. My wife might be upset for me sharing this, but the first time my wife said to me, I love you, was actually when she mistakenly thought

I said to her, I love you. And to be fair, it really wasn't her fault. I was praying. So we were together and I said, like, God, I love you. And I was actually talking to God, like, I love something like that.

She I love you, too. Actually, there's a good excuse. If your girl doesn't respond with, I love you. I wasn't even talking to you. I was talking to you. I was talking to the Saints and Angels. Get over yourself, you big weirdo.

Here's a question. I was on an episode of the podcast I'm Doing Great. And I just had such a great time. I want to reiterate that again, the fella who runs that and the Sheila who wasn't there when I got interviewed, wonderful people. And it was a great podcast. And I said, he said to me, would you consider your wife your best friend? And I think I said, yeah. And he struggled with that because he thought, I don't know, it kind of cheapens what your marriage is if you call your wife your best friend. But he wasn't sure he wasn't making that statement. We were just kind of bantering back. But what would you say?

You know what? Alice actually has a hot take where she thinks that the invention of the best friend is just a modern invention of somebody scraping at some sort of permanence that our world really doesn't allow. Alice Emum, get on the phone right now. Put her on speaker. Yeah, she, yeah.

That's good. So it is a good one because it is, to try and expound upon my wife's insight, is that we are so transient today, like we move apart from one another and in the kind of our nostalgia grasping at the things that do solidify us and ground us, we think about the people that formed us, and then we hold on to that and we give them a special title, you know, that they then cannot ever escape from unless there's a major falling out. But the only people that we've traditionally given... I really like that.

Yeah. Keep going, keep going. But the only people that we've ever traditionally given some sort of promise of always being in relationship with is our spouse, you know? And so best friend ironically fits them best because of that. It doesn't cheapen the relationship at all or the definition of it at all. It actually reveals it for what it truly is and places everything else in subordination to it. And I wonder too, if it comes out of that thing that we ought not to have in friendships, namely jealousy, or it's like, you're going to be this special kind of friend for me. And we'll both, you know.

Yeah. Yeah. It might come out of an insecurity too, that it's important to me that we both agree that we have this status and that no one else will take it. Yeah. Yeah. How many groomsmen did you have at your wedding? Pearson, Luke, Jamie, Joseph, Luke, other Luke. Yeah, you had too many as well.

I did. I did, too. And Mark, of course. Oh, good. Yeah, I would. I would have done. I would have done my my wedding would be totally different today. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not gonna pretend, I'm not gonna look back and somehow.

Yep, I understand that. It would be like Byzantine liturgy. Yep. No groomsmen. Unless one was necessary. But I have like six, I had two best men. You know how awkward that is to have two best men? I did too. Isn't that awkward?

Sorry, I don't mean to. It wasn't because Luke and I were Pierce's two best men. Pierce and I were Luke's best men. Oh, too. Isn't that awkward? Sorry, I don't mean to. It wasn't because Luke and I were Pierce's two best men. Pierce and I were Luke's best men. And then they were enough. There's something kind of poetic to that. Yeah. But for me, I think the reason was I felt like I couldn't really offend this one guy. So I, you know. Oh, yeah, totally. I that is awkward.

No, I'm not sure why we ended up. My priest calls bridesmaids and groomsmen hoard ornaments. Like how many of these you're going to need? Come on. Just. It was a great time. We got together the night before. I think that's it would be it's more elegant to just have one witness on either side. Right. Tell me about your groom's party or your groomsman's.

What do you what are they called? Bachelor party. Yeah. About that stag do we call it a buck night in Australia. Buck night. That's even better. Yeah. How did it go? So we all got to Minneapolis on I think there was a Thursday or Wednesday evening. And then Thursday was kind of the groom's time. And then Friday was the pre whatever the,

and then Saturday, the wedding. No, no, no, no, shifted. We got married on a Friday. Doesn't matter. Sorry. We got, we got there and I, the first thing we did in the morning was just went off on a walk, you know, we took a hike, you know,

there's a small little waterfall thing. We just had a great time catching up on memories. Some people were meeting for the first time. And that's kind of a strange, you know, there's a small little waterfall thing. We just had a great time catching up on memories. Some people were meeting for the first time, and that's kind of a strange thing. We're like, your world's like, I grew up in Redmond and I, you know, I'm living in England and these people are now meeting one another and such. I mean, that's that's very bizarre and wonderful. Then we. There is an idea that we were going to put balloons on our back and then run around

and try and shoot them with airsoft. Airsoft. So good. Not be these. How would an airsoft. It was still puncture. Yeah, we ended up not doing it and still just shooting one another in close proximity, which was pretty fun

What's an airsoft gun cuz I'm thinking this that you got a BB gun or a pellet gun What I'm not sure what a pellet when I think airsoft is a BB gun, but it's plastic BBs instead of metal Yeah, they're soft. So thank you. Okay Like implant itself in your skin. And then we went to a nice dinner and there all my uncles came and some of my old mentors came as well. And that was just overwhelming because it was like literally, it kind of, you know, this is what like a wedding is supposed to be. Like you're saying the vows. And then of course this actually happens in the Byzantine liturgy where you're given the crowns of martyrdom even before you go through it. It's like a premature anointing.

And all of the old married couples are, they've got no idea what they're doing. Yeah, enjoy that crown. They're smiling out there. You're going to get destroyed. And then you're with everybody that you know and that you love already celebrating as if you're already at the heavenly banquet because you have now just received all that you have needed. No. You're like, Jacob's not going to say it.

I'm just going to say it. No. You just received what is necessary for you to get to heaven. That's what a vocation is. It's like your path to heaven. You've got that. Let's celebrate. You know?

And so it's just, and I kind of felt that the night before with all my mentors and my friends and my uncles showing up there. It was just over, I mean, I was like crying like a little baby as everybody was walking into the room and it was like. That's cool. Well, my box night.

Tell me about it. In Houston, Texas. And I'm actually oh, you know what? Oh, my God, I am so excited to tell you about this. There are memories that if I didn't excavate right now, they may not ever come back because I'm just gripping to them. Here's what happened. I woke up in the morning and I walked out of my room them at threat. Here's what happened. I woke up in the morning and I walked out of my room and my groomsmen were all standing around with Texan bandanas on and white singlets

and handlebar mustaches drawn on their upper lip. Where mustaches go. And they prayed, they led me in a prayer and we all prayed together. And then they jumped on me and like tore my shirt off and put a singlet on me and did the same thing to me. And then we went to a water park that day and spent the whole day at a water park, after which we went to a barbecue restaurant. And then we went to St. Thomas more in Houston, Texas, where we would be married the next day. My wife and I, obviously not me and the groomsmen. And we, someone let us in praise and worship for about an hour. And I remember one of my groomsmen wasn't Christian at all, but was very moved by the

experience. He thought it was quite good. We went from there to our friends, the brooms, who were our marriage sponsors, Julie and Kirk. our friends, the brooms, who were our marriage sponsors, Julian Kirk, and he cooked us all a really manly meal filled with meat and that was it. Just meat, meat and beer. I remember at one point in the party, my dad and Cameron's dad showing up

half inebriated, to be sure. They were having a better time than everybody else. Getting rid of their children to each other. And after that, we went out for drinks. And that was a really special time because a good friend of mine who was a groomsman to two of the groomsmen who were married were giving me advice for what I would need to know the next night. We'll leave it at that.

Oh man. Yeah. But it was beautiful advice. Was it? Yeah. Because I got good friends, you know, they're not, they're not, they're not vulgar. They're not shameful. They were like, brother, but it was very practical.

Yeah. By not shameful, I don't mean not practical and airy fairy. Here's what you should probably. And it was fantastic. It was just so lovely. So that was amazing. So big thanks to Todd Ma in particular, who was my best man. Who? That is awesome. Where's Todd now?

He's up in Canada. Yeah, he's in chains. Yeah, yeah. And he's no longer allowed to leave his house. He's working in the maple syrup camps. Yeah, he's in chains. Yeah, yeah, of course. Well, he's no longer allowed to leave his house. He's working in the maple syrup camps. Yeah, that's right. Yep, yep, yep. So, yeah, that was that was fun to talk about. That was just a beautiful thing, getting married in Texas.

I'm so glad that we got married at a church and we had our reception next door in this dinky little hall. That's perfect. And neither my wife or I were terribly interested in the aesthetics of the whole thing. Not in a not in a Kaila of way, but just in a, we're preparing for marriage. So the wedding day was exciting, but we were excited about, I mean, we'd never been together as man and wife until that night, which was, thank God for that grace. So just to really enjoy that whole day together, man, it was, it was beautiful. Yeah.

I remember my friend Mike King woke me up that morning of my marriage. My marriage day and we went to get a bagel. Speaking of Jews, we speak to Jews a lot in this episode. Did you just say we went to get a bagel speaking of Jews? What would you rather me say? Speaking of the Chinese, would that make sense? Speaking of anything? Well, no, it was it's a Jewish bagel shop, though, because this actually place where we got married, there's a lot of Jews. Why does it feel wrong to say the Jews? You were assuming James again.

Is it the word thee that precedes it? Like, if I just said Jews, would that be better? Anyway, so I was at the Jew's, I was at this Jewish bagel store and this old woman was there and she found out I was getting married and she looked at me and with tremendous, like, bitterness said, run, just run now. Wow. I wanted to hug her. I'm so sorry. Your wife, your life didn't go the way you planned.

Oh, I'm so sorry. Yeah, somebody said that same thing to me. And then he did just leave his wife like a year later or something like that. He's like, just don't do it, man. There's still time to get out. Said it with a big smile. A few months later he's gone.

Yeah. How sad. How sad. Yeah, that happens. Gee, that's heartbreaking. I've been married 17 years and my wife is a mystery to me. The more I get to know her, the more I admire her. I can say that without pretending, without trying to sound one way.

Like she is just such a good human being. Here's one example. It's a very little example, but what I've noticed on airplanes is if there's a family with a kid who's like crying and talking the whole time and is being annoying because he should be because he's a child and you've put him in a metal tube in the air where no one wants to be bothered. It's not his fault. It's propelling along by many explosions all throughout the area. I find that if people talk to them, it's usually when you're parked and you're getting your

bags and then everyone's like, Oh, hey, you did so great. And everyone's very talkative then because they know they're about to parked and you're getting your bags and then everyone's like, oh, hey, you did so great. And everyone's very talkative then because they know they're about to leave and they're not committing to a kind of relationship with this person for the next three hours. But my wife's the opposite. I mean, whenever we get on a plane or anywhere, she always like talks to the mother,

asks how she can help, is always offering help giving of herself. Like she's such a good person. Yeah, I'm more the person who's like, I'm not even gonna talk to them as we're getting off. I don't need to make another friend. But yeah, she's so good. Wasn't pretending through the flight, not gonna pretend now. Yeah, I'm more the person who's like, I'm not even going to talk to them as we're getting off. I don't need to make another friend. But yeah, she's pretending through the flight, not going to tell you. Yeah, that's right.

What am I going to say? Darn it. Yeah, yeah. Marriage is hard. Marriage is hard as hell. Oh, sure. This is the this is just another little. Well, I feel like I should put a bow on that unless you're going to ask me about what I just said, because I'm like, marriage is hard as hell. Well, we feel like I should put a bow on that unless you're gonna ask me about what I just said because I'm like marriage is hard as hell We can get in okay

We so we got married at Alice's church same she was received and baptized at 15 And then and any so she's received all her major sacraments there including wedding and then went off to her Family's farm. They have a horse farm and when we kind of like snuck away or family's farm, they have a horse farm. And when we kind of like snuck away, we actually went to like a little hut thing on the property and like just kind of snuck away so nobody would see us or where we were going. Everybody thought we were going to a hotel or whatever. And so we climb over these, the fence

and back into the meadows. And all the horses came up and stood in a row, like it was just apparently when they welcome like their owners or something like that, their masters, and they see even in like a dangerous situation, they'll be there on guard and it was dark. And so we're walking through. And so they just stood as like soldiers

as we're walking by, like escorting Alice. That is beautiful. Isn't that outstanding? Yeah. So marriage is hard as hell. It's just something about bringing two broken people into a relationship and expecting them to share a house and a bed and children and life together.

I mean, no one can be prepared for something like that. It's really, I mean, no one can be prepared for something like that. It's really, I mean, it's only grace that prepares and sustains you, but all of your childhood expectations and learnings and traumas, they come out and it's tough. It's so tough. Um, so I don't know. I just think it's important that if we're going to say how wonderful marriage is, I at least want to share, like it doesn't mean it's easy. Like loving another broken human being with all of their defenses and your own. My gosh, that's a that's a tough thing.

Yeah, I don't know. I think was it Fulton Sheen or somebody? Poor Fulton Sheen. He's repository of all uncertain quotes, but something to the effect of it's not, marriage is not hard, it's just that it's humanly impossible. That's awesome. That fits along with that whole thing is like, you know, you need the grace of Christ to be able to handle that cross or something like that.

Another one of those that he can get attributed to him. I don't know, to be honest, I found marriage extremely easy. I've only been married a few years. So give me time to change that statement. We'll come back in 20 years. Yeah, yeah, I'll let you know when I'm at 17 years. But it's been so much easier than being a single guy. And like, not because of any like impulses or whatever.

It's just that like, I always have a friend, you know, and I have a rock solid friend and the best, you know, the best of friends, you know, and she's always looking beyond me, you know, trying to make me better and such. And like, that's just great. And it's wonderful. And like sometimes, you know,

kids will be annoying or you don't get much sleep because of that. But like actually just inner personally between Alice and me, it's been so, it's just been so wonderful and it's a joy. Like everybody that we know are like unsure about whether or not to get married. We're just like, just do it.

It's the best. It's really wonderful life. Like, and it's, and I do, I don't know. Somebody came up to us again on our reception, our wedding reception, she was like, Dana and Bill lived right next door to me, like growing up. And she just pulled us aside and said, like, everybody says marriage is hard. It's not hard. You're with the person that you love most of all.

Like you might like yell or something that one another, we've never yelled at one another. Praise God. I just, I'm waiting to disagree with you. I'm waiting for your lips to stop moving so I can just disagree. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm wondering if there's going to be nuance or if this is it. No, she just said like the world is hard. Yeah. This is the one chance that you have to like have a shield in the defense against it. And I know other people's experiences are different, but we, you know, these few years in, that's kind of what it's been felt like for us.

Yeah. I want to meet you somewhere because I agree that marriage has been the greatest blessing in my life. And my wife is just my most beautiful friend. It's like, if I don't share an experience with her even orally or over the phone, it's almost like it didn't happen. Like I just, she is so close to me in that way. I enjoy everything more when she's around me doing it. But no, I think lately, not lately, but I would say several years ago.

Well, see, there's a lot of things that come to batter you about when you're married, right? Like in the beginning, or maybe when you're young and we're healthy and things are great. But life, life is hard and people get sick or babies die or. You or your wife might struggle with some mental illness, and then it's like trying to love each other in the midst of that pain can be very difficult. So there you go, I guess that's it. I guess that's all we'll have to say. You'll say marriage is easy and I'll say it's hard.

Well, but I just, no, but I think we did hit upon something that was, is that like life is hard and just life is hard. Like it's, you know, you got two options. You can be crucified on Jesus left or on Jesus right, you know, but you're going to be crucified, right? in this life. And I find just like the marriage part of that, like there's new things that come with it, like new relationships, you know, new things that like handle, but like the other person as your, you know, like, you know, the great charge that you have to be with that other person and to guard them and to be guarded by them in some some mysterious ways Like that just makes life slightly more palatable. Yeah, I found I guess my claim is yeah I agree, but I guess where we're not seeing eye to eye is just that maybe the level of

Difficulty we've both endured. I would like I'd love people to tell us what you think, like in the comments section. That's true. Like, let us know. We've not been through nearly as much as you guys have. That's, I mean, a hundred percent. Well, that might not be it though, too. I mean, maybe there are couples who've gone through a heck of a lot more than us and they haven't found it hard.

I think for us, what's been hard, honestly, is just, you know, like you don't often reflect on why you act the way that you do. You don't often reflect on why you are offended by the things you're offended by. And then when you're thrown into a relationship with someone for 24 hours a day, you then begin to question, this is a learned behavior from my youth or, or, um, this is a coping mechanism, perhaps that I use that I'm now bringing into marriage that I didn't even know about. So for me, I suppose marriage has been like a refiner's fire in that all of the junk comes to the surface and you have to deal with it.

Or you don't. I guess you don't have to deal with it. You could sort of suppress it and live a rather shallow, boring, banal marriage. But what I love about my relationship with my wife right now is, yes, gee, we're both like, I'm 40 this year. My wife's the same age. And so just dealing with these things now of like, why do I do this? Why do I react like that when you ask that of me or where is that coming from? And like, how does the Lord want to bring healing to that?

Like, this is the adventure I'm really excited about. So it's hard, bloody hard, but it's also incredibly from and like, how does the Lord want to bring healing to that? Like, this is the adventure I'm really excited about. So it's hard, bloody hard, but it's also incredibly fruitful and rewarding. Yeah. All right. Well, I'm just going to shut up because I haven't been married long enough to comment on it, so I'm going to just. OK, yeah, I'm going to. But I certainly don't mean to imply that the only reason you don't feel that way

is because you've been married less. That's not what I'm not the one saying that. Yeah. Yeah. It might just be. No, but I'd be happy to believe that, though. I mean, I really am. I'm not just saying that. I just think that you just learn a ton through time and I haven't been in it that long. So. Yeah. Beautiful. Well, how should we wrap up?

Let's do another plug for your excellent timber framing course. And you need to plug. Covenantize.com. If you have a computer, it probably accesses the Internet. If it accesses the Internet, it probably accesses pornography. And since you don't want to be the kind of person who looks at pornography and you certainly don't want to be the kind of person who allows your children to look at pornography, you should get covered eyes.

It's the best filtering and accountability software on the web. Honestly, I don't even care if you use that or something else. If you find something else and you think that works better, please use that thing. But I think it's I don't mean to shame people, but I don't know how else to get around it. If I've given my child a phone or a computer and I'm not seriously locking it down, how is that not neglect when porn can kill their souls? Like, how is it not? Go get carbonized.com right now. When they use the promo code,

we need to learn what it is. There's not a promo code. There's a link and it's in the description. And that gives them the discount? I've been told. Good. Click the link in the description below. And when you sign up with that link, you'll get 30 days for free.

You can try it out and then decide whether you want to use it or not use it. But as I keep saying, like my teenage years would have been very different if I knew that my dad was getting a report of my Internet activity. It takes this isolating sin and it brings it into the open, not so as to shame, but so as to help and to guide. So as to help children use the Internet in a responsible, helpful way. They're going to need to do that, like unless you're Amish or unless you're you're blessed enough to live in a community where maybe these things aren't required. But yeah, carbon monoxide, you should get that when your kids get older.

Yeah. If they start using the Internet, carbonarize. You should get that when your kids get older. If they start using the internet. I would love for my kids at like 21, 22 be like, wait, what are you talking about? Computer. Yeah. Discover the internet for the first time. Yeah. But listen, we have a lot going on here in Steubenville. I'm talking to the people at home right now and Jacob and some friends have what's called a student, but listen, we we have a lot going on here in student bill. I'm talking to the people at home right now. And Jacob and some friends have what's called a student.

The school, the student workshop downtown. It's fantastic. And they are doing a three week timber framing course this summer. And we have some free housing so you can sign up by clicking the link below and come live here for three weeks. See what it's like to live in Steubenville, party with us, hang out with us and be a bad ass and learn how to build a gazebo and a work shed.

Yeah, it's gonna be great. I'm looking forward to learning how to do these things. People want more information, what should they do? Yeah, I think they have the link in the description below and we'd really look forward to spending that time with you as well. It's gonna be great. Use the promo code, No, I'm joking.

You should make up a promo code. You know, like, Matt Fradd is my spirit animal. Quick, Alex, create that promo code. Yeah. And you pay ten more dollars for being a heretic. No such thing as a spirit animal. The joke's on you. Piss Fingers is my spirit animal.

Have you seen the piss fingers meme? Wait there, everybody. Wait there. Don't cut the stream just yet. I want Jacob to read this. Hold on. Wait, I bet I still have the picture. I could probably put it on the stream real quick. All right. I'll try to find it. Now this makes sense to you, but it

will. Piss fingers? What is like you? You missed? Just give us a sec. I have so many questions about how do you miss so much? All right, here we go. Did you put it on? Hold on. I've got it right here for him to look at.

All right, I want you to read this out loud for the people at home. All right. Adopt, don't shop. Meanwhile, on dog shelter websites, this is Pissfingers. This picture is so horrific. Keep reading. She's 19 years old and can't live in a home with children, books or electricity.

Pissfinger is nervous around hair and needs 400 acres of land and an orchard of extinct fruit. That picture is just beautiful. Look at that. It's amazing how many people got offended by that. They're like, I'd adopt it. I'm like, well, go for it. No way. As soon as it's own reward, buddy. Look at that. It's amazing how many people got offended by that. They're like, I had adopted. I'm like, well, go for it. As soon as it's own reward, buddy.

Oh, my gosh. It's so funny because we talk all about. Oh, I talk about like not adopting shelter dogs all the time, but I have a Craigslist dog. Yeah. But anyway, I'm not really saying

that it's speaking about dogs and in friendship We are getting a dog because we're moving out to the land and inside a travel told me which one that is Yeah, what kind I told me we're getting it in a few weeks Okay, but then we're leaving for two weeks this summer. Yeah, can you yes, can you take care of it while we're gone? Yes, all things being equal like provided we're home and we'd love to. Sweet. Thanks. Is it a puppy? It'll be really cute. I cannot wait.

I got to share this text that I got from Jason Everett. It was so funny. I was asking him about his dog. So it was dog memes now for the rest until Jason. So he's got this South African dog. I remember being on a trip with him somewhere and he said he was looking into this dog because they're like ferocious. I cannot pronounce this dog name, so I apologize.

But if you look it up, you'll be able to figure it out. He said. South African. Boreable. Boreable. How do you say that? My gosh, it's adorable. Wow. Yeah.

Let me read the text because it's so funny. Gosh. He said, it's a South African. Awesome dog for security, but a bit overprotective, super loyal to the family and good with the kids. But she thinks everybody else is al-Qaeda. What is it? good with the kids, but she thinks everybody else is Al Qaeda. What is it? Borebo. Borebo. OK, South African Borebo. Yeah, so beautiful.

Yeah, I don't. Oh, is that his tongue? Oh, no, it's his chin. The Lesniewskis have a gorgeous dog. It's actually a boxer and bulldog mix, I think. Yeah, she is one of the most gorgeous dogs I've ever met. My dog is adorable. Yeah, I can't wait to have him. And her dog. Yeah.

Yeah, the ZZ. Whatever. I can't give my dog neo pronouns as a bit. He does. He did. I mean, he's technically, you know, had bottom surgeries. I don't know what comedian it was that made that joke about how dogs are far over trusting. Like one day you're like, come on, buddy, jumps in the car. We go somewhere. I have his balls cut off. We got home the next day. I'm like, come on, buddy. Same level of excitement.

It's like, if I have the dog, I dog I'd be like yes but I have some questions. Anyway Jacob I know you're probably gonna get going. That's amazing. We're going paintballing right? Actually there is one of the world's largest paintball places near here. I think it might be the world's most. That'd be really fun. We could do it sometime. Maybe we could do a pints with Aquinas paintballing. That'd be awesome. Anyway, God bless you, Jacob. Thank you so much. Thanks, Thursday. Thanks, everybody who's watching. This is fun.