Pints With Aquinas - The Marriage Advice You Didn't Know You Needed (Dr. Dan Allender) | Ep. 586

Starting point is 00:00:00 Can we slow down and ask the question, what is trauma? It is a kind of eruption, disruption, a violation. There's the second element, and that is a sense of powerlessness. Being told, it's not your fault. It's a beautiful sentence, but it deals with a problem at about 30,000 feet. You've got to be able to step into the story. I've heard that trauma lives in the body, and I don't know what that means. Your vagal nerve is the superhighway of all your affect, all your emotions.

Starting point is 00:00:29 It's what brings us to a kind of disconnection, to feeling certain things that feel too disruptive. And so it's a great gift at times because if I'm being chased by a tiger, I don't think I want to actually feel. I need to move. Contempt for our spouse. I think you said this is what kills marriages. We often think conflict is what divides us. It isn't. Conflict is what gives us the potentiality for curiosity for a kind of...

Starting point is 00:00:59 Who are you? Like what planet did you come from? The world is filled with two-dimensional people who have checked out. I don't want to do it. I don't want to be like that. How is it possible you could let your life be inured by pointless distractions when there is so much life in God? Trauma therapist that specializes in sexual abuse. Yes. horrible. I'm going to launch probably like that. But then I want to get to your story. I'm excited. Again, three hours will not. Come on enough. Well, we can maybe see if we can go longer. We'll see what happens.

Starting point is 00:01:51 Dan Allender, thank you so very much for making the trip to be here. Matt, we will have a very intriguing conversation just because of all that we've talked about before. Yes, even just so far. Yeah. Yeah, I I first saw you on the Eldridge's podcast, and I think I wrote to Blaine. And I said, do you think he'd come on my show? He's like, you have to have him. I went, all right, let's try. So thank you so much. Well, again, all of us at some level are seeking honor.

Starting point is 00:02:23 And this is a remarkable gift of honor to be. Is it? Why? Well, again, you probably don't know of the show. I've watched enough to be able to go the interplay, again, of the ability to deal with nihilism. and Frederick Nietzsche and the ability then to swing into the realms of spiritual warfare, to be able to engage the nature of a fallen world with hope. At that point, all I can say is when you do it as well as you do is worth.

Starting point is 00:02:55 Okay. It is worth. I'm honored to have you. So you are a trauma therapist who specializes, you can correct me if I'm wrong, in sexual abuse. Yes. No. Why would you live you a lot? Is that an accusation or if it's a right? Is it a way of saying, good God, man. Why are there not better and simpler ways to make a living? Yeah. So do me a favor. Give me your sum up the answer that you would give on an elevator and then I want to ask something else. Why would you do such a thing? How long is the elevator? The elevator, you've got three floors. Oh, good Lord. Because I love, I love. drama and I love redemption and where there is the deepest levels of harm there's also the deepest levels of hope and I am a man who craves hope that's a beautiful answer how long have you

Starting point is 00:03:47 been a therapist um since I was about 24 and I'm near 74 so it's not donning on 50 years okay is healing and hope actually possible or is it just a carrot that we can never reach well I am fond of carrots. And so, just to begin with, the beta pro team that's in carrots are enough to worthy say it is a great carrot. But the reality is you cannot live without hope, as you cannot live without faith because we need trust. You cannot live without trust. You cannot live without hope because you begin to have an imagination of what your desires are moving to you to in the future. you can't live without love and that sense of being known

Starting point is 00:04:33 and in one sense knowing. So if we can't live without faith, hope, and love, then we can't live and be human without having at least to wrangle with the reality that none of us are that fond of hope. None of us are that fond of hope?

Starting point is 00:04:50 I don't think so, unless you're buying a hallmark card, in which case you've so trivialized the nature of hope. But when I think about hope, it is a kind of defined. defiance of what is in order to create what you know, you imagine, what could be. So in that sense, it's always a disruptive force within us. It doesn't make life easier.

Starting point is 00:05:15 In many ways, it opens the door to levels of risk, levels of uncertainty that require you to move forward in the future. Nobody can live without hope. But in that sense, the question is always, what is your hope? What is the basis of your faith? What is the basis of your hope? How do you choose to be loved and to love? Okay. I think Aquinas says something to the effect of hope is, what does he say?

Starting point is 00:05:44 It's trying to achieve something good and the trying to achieve it is the difficult thing. So it's a difficulty. It presupposes a difficulty to attain a good, something like that. Absolutely. If it were not difficult, we would not be compelled. Yeah, I like that. defiance. All right.

Starting point is 00:06:02 Well, I don't know how soon you're okay with me asking you this question, but I was texting back and forth with our mutual friend, John Eldridge, and he said, you have to ask him how he became a therapist and make sure you get him to talk about his mother. So tell me about how you grew up. Oh, how did I grow up? Well, I grew up in a home in which my mother had already experienced the death of my father. My father died. My mother, father and I were in an auto accident where my dad died DOA. My mother was thrown through the windshield and was in the hospital for several months.

Starting point is 00:06:40 I was left in Georgia with two older women who brought me from the accident to their home. Why didn't someone pick me up? Why didn't other relatives come to care? Already my story has that element of what? How old are you? I'm at that point four. Okay. So I'm aware enough of my world to know that the first sandwich they gave me was a ham sandwich, which I had never tasted.

Starting point is 00:07:12 My father was Jewish. And so the reality that this lovely taste of a meat I had never encountered almost had that sense of, this is good. somehow this is good now I've literally watched my father die by his body watched him breathe his last breath

Starting point is 00:07:35 you have vivid recollect oh absolutely my mother is like a doll tossed onto the ground so already my life in some sense begins in trauma but prior to that my father was having an affair

Starting point is 00:07:49 multiple affairs my mother left him with me And in the context of that, they eventually came back together and were on their way to Florida to attempt to repair their marriage. That's when the accident occurred. So in some ways, what I'd say is I was born into trauma. But I'd also say a lot of us are. In one sense, everybody bears some reality of living east of Eden. So that's something at the beginning of my life.

Starting point is 00:08:19 And then my mother remarries. And she marries a man utterly, as completely different as my father, as you could imagine. My father was entrepreneur. He actually ran a contrabrand ring in Hawaii. He was a pharmacist. And he rifled through the bodies of dead men with several companions, came back to the U.S. with something comparable to about a million dollars. My mother married a man who was the most quiet, calm.

Starting point is 00:08:55 The second man? Yes. And so in one sense, what I can say is the reality of my mother's life was bound to her own trauma. And she often looked to me for her life. She didn't look to her new husband for life. She looked to me for the sustenance of her life. If folks know the term my mother would fit the category borderline personality disorder, which means she was playful, brilliant, cruel, she could be weeping one moment and the next laughing hysterically. She was sarcastic, cutting, but also compelling.

Starting point is 00:09:37 I mean, I remember being at different parties with my mother as a six-year-old, eight-year-old, where she's literally dancing on a table. She was the center of almost any gathering in terms of her ability to command an audience. And I was her companion. I was the one who would accompany her. So I was responsible in so many ways for her life, for her soul. And that creates a kind of drama that set you up pretty well for heartache, for a war. of mind, soul, and body. I think I became a therapist well before I was 24.

Starting point is 00:10:22 But in terms of licensure, PhD, et cetera, et cetera, all that came really after in so many ways being a trauma therapist as a four-year-old, eight-year-old, 12-year-old and beyond. So years ago, a husband and a wife in Lithuania sent me one of their handmade rosaries, and I was so struck by it, the weight, the quality, the care in

Starting point is 00:10:44 every detail. It was seriously the most beautiful rosary I'd ever seen. Now, in collaboration with Theotokos Rosaries, I'm making two of their hand-crafted rosaries available to you over at dailywire.com slash shop. Italian olive wood, gold, plated brass, micro-braid cord built for a lifetime of prayer, each one made by hand in Lithuania. These are not just beautiful rosaries. They can be family heirlooms that you would pass down. Use for personal devotion. You could also give them as a wedding gift, ordination gift, confirmation gift, or for graduation. Now, the first batch sold out right away. So, pre-order yours now at dailywired.com slash shop before the next batch is gone.

Starting point is 00:11:28 That's dailywire.com slash shop. Did you have siblings? I'm an only child of an only child of an only child. So family was very foreign to my world. How did you remember processing this as a child? Well, and this is one of the things about memory. If you had asked me at age five or six, if I had been in an accident, I would have had no memory whatsoever. So I was 19 years of age in an English class where the requirement was take a photo, like an Olin Mills photo of a family portrait, which are very staged, and then take that portrait and write a story on the basis of it.

Starting point is 00:12:13 It's that context where I started thinking, I started, you know, as you might, look over your own home thinking about, where would a portrait like that be? I couldn't see any. And so I drove home about 45 minutes from the college to my home and started looking for a photo.

Starting point is 00:12:32 There were no photos. I knew there was a hat box my mother had it in her closet. I went to it, opened it, and there were hundreds of photos. Toward the very bottom, There was a photo of my mother as a young woman And me is about a four-year-old boy

Starting point is 00:12:50 And a man I had never seen before So I took that photo to my mother, put it in front of her And I said, that's you, that's me, who's that man? And she said rather blithely, oh, that's your father. And I went, the man upstairs asleep in the bedroom? She goes, no, that's your stepfather. You're 19. Yes. Okay. It was as if you just found out that your parents work for the KGB.

Starting point is 00:13:19 Like, there's another world that you have not seen or heard that now becomes real. And I'm like, where is he? Oh, he's dead. Is she saying it this blithely? She's actually cleaning the kitchen sink. And, yeah, he's dead. How did he die? Oh, in an accident you were in when you were about four years of age. Literally, I don't know how to put it better than it blew my mind to find out that my father, whom I still refer to as my father, my stepfather, we don't look alike. When I saw the photo of my father, I have a face that looked like his.

Starting point is 00:14:06 And there was always that sense of what's going on in this family? Why am I so much more responsible for my mother's emotions for her world than my father seems to be? And yet now I begin to get a photo. And the photo opens the door to a story. And the story opens to a drama that, again, we know the phrase, don't we, that every family has its own closet. of skeletons. Well, the reality is absolutely true. There are stories about your parents. There are stories about your grandparents that aren't told because they're too disturbing to actually have walk into the familiar settings that we all live in. And so those stories are bound to shame.

Starting point is 00:14:58 Those stories are bound to heartache that we as family can't bear. But that one moment opened the door to a level of reality that, let's just say, was very important for me in terms of my own spiritual walk. You said when you were five, you wouldn't have known there was an accident, but earlier you said you have a vivid memory. So at what point did the memories come back and how did that happen? Yeah. Well, if we start with the reality that memories are never a kind of artifact of a verbatim or like a videotape, especially traumatic memories, are always fragments. So if you had asked me,

Starting point is 00:15:40 what kind of dreams show up as a 12-year-old, 18-year-old, or younger, accidents would have been part of my dream horizon. There was death in a lot of my dreams. And so I didn't have memory of an event, but I had these particles that would some

Starting point is 00:16:05 somehow begin to play out. So when I began to hear the history of my father, the history of the accident, it began to come back in very small portions of what I could allow my body, my mind, my heart to be able to remember. So it was not quick. Like all of a sudden, the photo brings all the memories back, which then can be asked, how accurate were those memories? Well, I don't have a way of verifying other than I have newspaper articles about where the accident occurred. I know there was a small stream. I've looked at Google Earth. I've done a little bit of research to be able to go from what I do remember, what historicity might be connected to it.

Starting point is 00:16:53 And I have good reason to believe those memories are accurate. So it sounds like you're saying that you had or your mother had, what would you say? An inappropriate relationship with you as a young child? Yes. Not a sexual or? Well, that becomes more complicated. Okay. In that I would have, when I wrote a book called The Wounded Heart, which was my first book on sexual abuse, I would have said that my mother never sexually abused me.

Starting point is 00:17:21 But when I began to look more at what has come to the surface through the process of engaging, not only my story, but other stories. There was what could be called all sorts of inappropriate attire that she would wear. I remember being able to help her put on or take off

Starting point is 00:17:42 a bra by the age of five to eight. That's... Not realizing that was odd at the time, I'm sure. What categories do you have? You can't go to your next door neighbor who happens to be five and go. How often do you unhook your mother's bra?

Starting point is 00:17:58 So, yeah, again, to say, is that as severe a form of abuse as others that I've worked with? Of course not. But if we understand that trauma is trauma, a blow is a blow, and in that there are consequences. So to be able to say, I had access visually and otherwise to see my mother's body in ways that were a rather innocuous word inappropriate. But tremendously forming of my own sense of sexuality, forming of my own sense of who I am in relationship, as we eventually talk about our marriages, then the reality is it's going to show up in the most important relationship of all and the most difficult of all relationships, my marriage. So, yeah, I would say my mother's shadow has been a significant, but as well, my father's absence. meaning he was physically present to all sorts of drama between my mother and I and chose to not get involved because it was too complex.

Starting point is 00:19:09 She was a complex woman. I was a fairly articulate and vocal boy and with a range of vocabulary, even at a young age, that he didn't feel he could tangle with. So my father left my mother and I in a long series of complex bouts together. Where is that going to show up? Can we slow down and ask the question, what is trauma? Yeah. Think of it in three ways.

Starting point is 00:19:42 The first is something that bears a violation to the very shalom, the very goodness of what a life is meant to be. meaning it is a kind of eruption, disruption, a violation of some nature. And in that sense of violation, being mocked for being looking different in fourth grade, it may not seem that severe. Yeah. But being bullied and mocked, humiliated. Yeah. It's trauma because it's a violation of the way God made us.

Starting point is 00:20:21 to be. There's the second element inevitably, and that is a sense of powerlessness, meaning if you can change the violation in a fairly short period of time, then there's less effect of that trauma. But the experience of not having power, not having affectance to be able to change something leaves you with a sense, again, of vulnerability, of impotence, of inability to be able to change the nature of hope. So what I've just put words to is faith and hope. The foundation has been shattered and change cannot occur. It leaves you now with that experience of shame.

Starting point is 00:21:05 So when you've got the experience of a violation, powerlessness, and a sense of shame, there's something wrong with me. Okay. Something wrong with my inability or with me as a being, then you've got the combination that leaves us

Starting point is 00:21:24 with that experience of significant trauma. You said there were three things. Did we touch on the third? Yeah, shame. Okay, so the three things, again, just sum them up for me, because I'm slow?

Starting point is 00:21:33 A violation. Violation? Powerlessness. Yeah. Shame. Okay, so a violation, I like that, and then a sort of impotency

Starting point is 00:21:41 to set things right. And is it that that leads to shame? It does. So it's almost inevitable when you've got the first two. there will be that residue of something wrong with you. Like, what's wrong with me that you keep saying I'm stupid or I'm fat? And then if there's resistance, meaning you've attempted to change the bullying and the result is it only arouses the bully that much more.

Starting point is 00:22:08 And now it shuts you down to a point where you just sort of go, I guess it's best just to keep my mouth shut. Now in that silence, then shame begins to just fuse itself to your sense of self. And what is shame? Oh, my gosh. This is a lovely question. And let's just say it's one of those where you go as the Supreme Court Justice who said, I may not be able to define pornography, but I know it when I see it. Otto Stewart.

Starting point is 00:22:39 The experience of shame is that sense of not so much I've done wrong. I am wrong. So words like, I feel foul, I smell, I'm dirty, there's something bad about me. So when you've got those internal experiences, it's exposure. Like shame is always a matter of the eyes. What does that mean? Well, like, I'm a motorcyclist, and I was at a traffic light at one point, and I'd flip my helmet up, and it was early morning. And, you know, I needed to clean out.

Starting point is 00:23:18 I'll try to be very elemental here. I needed to clean out my nasal passage. Okay, good. So I placed a protruded digit up that nasal orifice, and I was digging away. And the person, you know, in the car right next to me, saw me. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:23:38 And as soon as she saw me, there was like that experience. The exposure. Eyes caught me in an act, which I don't think is that big of a deal. Right. Because if I were alone in my bathroom picking my nose, I don't think I'd feel a bitter shame. No. But the exposure of another human being capturing me in one sense. And probably more than the capturing, but a reaction?

Starting point is 00:24:03 Right. Now we're into the word contempt. Shame and contempt are always bound together. Where there's shame, it's like a fire smoke. Where they're ashamed, there's contempt. And so she had this look of disgust, like, ugh. And I could feel the contempt in myself, like, why would you be caught doing this? Yeah. When the light turned green, a good motorcyclist never moves quickly.

Starting point is 00:24:30 Why? Because somebody might run a red light. I took off like a bat out of hell. Why? Because I wanted to escape the exposure of the eyes. Yeah. Yeah. So when you feel vulnerable.

Starting point is 00:24:46 I'll share with you an experience that I've never thought of. This is going to be three hours of therapy with Dan. I used to bite my nails. I still do, unfortunately. But as a kid, I used to bite them all the time and the skin around them. And I didn't know why. And people told me to stop and I wanted to stop and I didn't know how to stop. And I remember being in grade six and all the students were sitting on the carpet.

Starting point is 00:25:05 And this pretty girl turned around and looked at my fingers and there was a look of disgust. That was shame. Yeah. I felt there was something wrong with me. Yeah. So the question of why the Biden is if I want to if I want to kind of if I want to be like, oh, stop it. Like that's nothing. It's like really? What else do you remember from that day? That month. Like is it that's strange. Like you remember it? No, we start with look. We're all finding ways to soothe. Psalm 131. I know how to soothe myself like a wean child. So there is something about soothing that is so central to being able to manage. in so many ways, stress biochemicals. And so trauma creates stress. And in that, we are going to find some way to manage it.

Starting point is 00:25:51 And biting fingernails. In some sense, here are this strange phrase, self-harm, creates the possibility of soothing. It means there's significant war within your body to be able to be doing that at that age. I'm not going to put you in the bind of having to be worse to that. But that's, you have to find some way to lower your level of stress. And when you need to move towards some degree of self-harm to manage stress, what happens with self-harm? Our body produces endorphins.

Starting point is 00:26:29 So why would a person cut themselves? Yeah. Why would a person put themselves in the middle of their own heartache in danger where their body could be hurt? Yeah. Well, because our body produces something that's comparable to cocaine. Is that right? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:26:43 Endorphins provide us with that level of self-soothing. Wow. So when we begin to look at trauma and begin to look at how we manage stress, because stress is always adrenaline, noradrenaline, catacolamines, cortisol. In other words, our stress body response is given to us by God to manage the threats where we need to run. hide, flight, fight. And we're going to find some way to preserve and to restore our body back to some degree of peace, Shalom. And it's heartbreaking as to biting your nails.

Starting point is 00:27:30 I happen to know that because I did that as well. Because I'm living in a complex world with a very complex mother and a whole lot of heartache I don't even have language for because I don't remember, and I've never been cared for enough to deal with the trauma of that early death. So I was in a lot of bicycle accidents, a lot of broken bones, a lot of biting and nails.

Starting point is 00:27:58 Again, these are trauma consequences because in some ways, the physical pain provided some level, strange as it may seem, some level of confidence. me. Most of us think our values show up in the big decisions, where we go to church, how we raise our children, and what causes we support. But our values also show up in small decisions, the ordinary ones, where we shop, what businesses we support, where our money goes every month. Because whether we realize it or not, every dollar is a vote. And that's why I appreciate Charity Mobile. You're already paying for phone service. The question is, who are you supporting while you do it? With Charity

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Starting point is 00:29:21 my household they are. Weekends get busier. And often one of the first things to go for many is prayer. Not because we've stopped loving God or we've stopped being a serious Catholic. It's just because life got chaotic. And that's why I really appreciate Hello. One of the things Hallow does really well is makes prayer accessible, even when life feels busy. Whether you have 10 minutes in the morning, a few minutes before bed or some quiet time on a walk, there are guided prayers, meditations, scripture reflections, rosaries and much more. You don't have to wonder where to start, just open the app and begin. Because prayer isn't something we fit into life after everything else is finished. Prayer is what helps put everything else in its proper place.

Starting point is 00:30:01 So if you've been wanting to build a more consistent prayer life, go to hallo.com slash Matt Frad and get three months free. That's hello.com slash Matt Frad. All right. Let me give voice to the two types of people that might be watching this show right now. One is locked in. One is already crying. The other is bullshit. Like, what are you doing?

Starting point is 00:30:23 Like this is, this is just psycho babble and therapy culture. is evil and we don't need that. Like this language of shame and trauma, this is all like modern language. We just need the scriptures and we need to get back to faith in Christ. None of this new stuff. And then also, even the person who's like,

Starting point is 00:30:46 in the middle will go, well, my stuff isn't that bad, you know? So like what you experienced with your dad being killed and your mom flunged out the car. I haven't dealt with anything like that. So I would be ashamed to even pretend I have trauma because who the hell am I to say that

Starting point is 00:31:05 when I haven't dealt with things nearly as bad as what he has or somebody else has? Absolutely. What do you think? Well, again, you've got a couple points here. So let's, let's, because I'm old, because I'm old and I can only remember largely what you said the last.

Starting point is 00:31:20 Start with this. Yeah. Comparison is the world of evil because the moment you compare, there will always be somebody better and somebody worse. So what is it accomplished other than to minimize your own world? All right. Well, minimization is a lovely way of trying to self-soothe or comfort, and it works. But it doesn't work because it's not entering reality.

Starting point is 00:31:44 Do we really want reality? Or do we want the reality that we create that makes our world somehow more sustainable? All right, back to the first portion of the question. Romans chapter 12. We're transformed by the renewing of our mind. What do you think the mind is? Do you think the mind is only the left hemisphere that operates to operate cogitation, operate sequential thought, logic, deduction?

Starting point is 00:32:15 Yeah, that's largely the task of the left hemisphere. How about the right hemisphere? Is that part of your brain? Is that part of what Paul uses the word noose to refer to? Again, we live and still live in a largely neoplatonic world. that does not want to honor the reality of what can be viewed as sort of the shadow world, the image world, the emotional world, the affect world. And again, not to say it's only the right hemisphere because that's a misunderstanding,

Starting point is 00:32:45 but we can say the right hemisphere is primarily managing affect, image, sensation. Well, I think Paul intends for us to have a renewed mind, including both left and right hemisphere. So actually what we're talking about is neurobiology. If you want to say it's psychology, I'm fine with that word. But we're actually talking theology here. We're talking about the nature of transformation of our minds. Yeah. And if we're not tending to our right hemisphere, then you're not tending to your whole brain, your mind,

Starting point is 00:33:21 in a way in which change needs to occur. So I, look, I'm a psychologist, and I get it. We live in a psychologically bound culture that is at times both maddening, but also taking us away from having to do with the reality of sin and the reality of redemption. I don't believe psychology provides redemption. I provide a context for looking at the nature of a human condition and then asking in theological terms or in spiritual terms, what's the core to change that people have known for me? millennia. Okay. What does that mean? The core to change that people have known for? Well, repentance is the core of change. Okay. Well, what do you mean by repentance? That's a good conversation. But if we begin with passage, like Romans 2, verse 4, it is the kindness of God that leads to repentance.

Starting point is 00:34:18 So how much kindness do you allow for the young parts of you that have known brokenness, cruelty, mocking? and to the degree that you handle those young parts. Like, would you treat your own four-year-old, eight-year-old son or daughter in a way that you treat yourself? Most people would say, no. Well, I want you to address the young parts of your own brain because we know neurologically.

Starting point is 00:34:47 We're not talking inner child. We're talking neurology. We're talking about the fact that you've got billions of neurons. that operate literally almost to the point of trillions of connections. So can I see that four-year-old now by the particular stream where my dad died? Yes, I can. Now, how do I tend to that four-year-old boy? I'm almost 74.

Starting point is 00:35:17 How do I tend to that four-year-old boy? And the question is, do I join God with kindness? Do I grieve for him but honor who he? became even in the middle of those moments. So if we can honor brokenness, but also beauty simultaneously, we have a different frame for engaging not only ourselves, but one another. Wow. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:35:41 I think one of the reasons people are skeptical of therapeutic culture is because it's bad examples of therapy. And we all have examples that maybe we've seen online or seen in movies or have experienced of ourselves, you know, where the therapist encourages the individual to abandon their wife, or you hear people using the language of wounds, but it seems like they've abandoned the language of sin, and it sounds like, even if they're not, that they're seeking to justify the depravity they're engaged in, you know, through psychobabble. So what might be helpful, not just to the skeptic who wants to believe you out there, but the

Starting point is 00:36:18 skeptic who wants to believe you here. And the skeptic that we're interacting with right now. Good. Yeah. Is to maybe help me know that you know what I'm talking about more than I know it so I can then proceed. Does that make sense? Yeah. Well, Jesus talks about sin in two categories. Lust, anger. And then, if it were me, you would accuse me of hyperbole. But if you want to do that with Jesus, that's fine. He talks about lust as adultery. And he talks about anger as murder. So what? What? were then painted in the corners, and 1 John 3, if you say you do not sin, Jesus says, through the writer John, you're a liar. So your mom and dad are sinners. You're a sinner. The way you parent,

Starting point is 00:37:09 your children, can we not acknowledge the reality that we're all struggling with lust and anger? Now, when we begin to put that in psychological terms, we can do that. But I think it is more accurate to say all psychological pathology related to the human condition always intersects with our brain and our body. So we're soma, and the soma is engaged. It's broken. It's beautiful. Simultaneously, we're living in a fallen world with fallen people as a fallen person. So as a consequence, sin is always going to be engaged in all our interactions. And so pathology related to the soma, like if you're depressed, I want you to see a good physician or psychiatrist to begin dealing with what we call SSRIs to begin the process of dealing with the reality

Starting point is 00:38:07 that you have a serotonin issue. Let's deal with the fact you've got a synaptical issue. Your neurotransmitters are not working quite as well. So we can give you a drug that allows serotonin to stay longer, and it will change what serotonin does, which is your mood. So is that due to sin? Yes, it's all due to brokenness. Your brokenness? You're depressed because you're a sinner. No, you're depressed because your body bears something of the imprint of a fallen world.

Starting point is 00:38:43 Can we care for your body kindly by this lovely 10 milligrams of Prozac? Yeah, but is there not more? Yeah, there's more. So don't just take a drug, but don't do anything less than honor your body and what it needs. So now we begin to play with the playground of, how have you been shaped through the earliest learning classroom of your life? And what's that?

Starting point is 00:39:12 That's your mom and dad, your brothers and sisters, it's your aunts and uncles, your grandparents. Are they sinners? Yes, they are. What does that mean? Well, your mom and dad struggle with lust because they're adulterers. And your mom and dad struggle with anger because they're murderers. Is that too harsh?

Starting point is 00:39:32 It sounds a bit harsh. Is that too psychological for you? Yeah, right. Explain what you mean by lust and anger. Like, it sounds like you're trying to categorize these human actions or disordered actions into these two categories. What does that mean? Well, make sure, you know, I'm not trying to do that. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:39:52 Jesus did that. I'm just trying to walk and ask, what does that mean as a human being in the interplay of all of what we're talking about? And I think in some sense, what we can say is we're all empty. We're all empty. There's something in us that needs food, drink, water, air. We need. We are vulnerable beings who need. And in that, we need love.

Starting point is 00:40:17 we were meant for love we were meant for someone delighting in us come on and we were meant for somebody who honors us and so in that sense of delight and honor i mean you know if if there's joy to be known it's in the presence of a fire or in the presence of water or the presence of a young child a baby. There is something that captures your attention in a way in which

Starting point is 00:40:50 your eyes. I mean, I've held my grandsons and daughters for hours. And they were minutes that passed because there was

Starting point is 00:41:00 something of utter glory in the presence of a fire, of water, of a child. So if we can begin to say

Starting point is 00:41:10 that we were meant for delight and the question of, how was your gift of delight from those who were meant to be the face of God for you for a long period of time. How was honor for you from those who were meant to be the face of God?

Starting point is 00:41:27 Well, they struggle with lust. And so in that sense, it's so easy to understand lust as a form of using. My mother used me to fill an emptiness that she never experienced with her first husband and never experienced with her second. But I provided some semblance of that for her. It sounds like you're maybe stretching the word lust, maybe to mean more than what we usually mean by us. Yes, yes.

Starting point is 00:41:54 We normally think of it as sexual. Disordered sexual desire. Yeah. But lust is just the idea of desire gone mad. Okay. That I will find a way. I'm going to buy a new car. I'm going to get a new job.

Starting point is 00:42:07 I'm going to get a new spouse. I will find some way to create. a semblance of heaven now. That's what lust us. Then, when you don't provide me with what I demand from you, or I don't create for myself

Starting point is 00:42:27 what I demand, I will make myself pay. If I were to ask, how do you handle when you lose a set of keys? Frustration, self-blame, like, why am I always doing this? What's wrong with me?

Starting point is 00:42:41 Right. Something like that. Murder. You're a murderer. Okay. I'm not kind to myself when I lose things. So what I'm saying is, lust is I need to be managing my life with a sense of control,

Starting point is 00:42:58 and I have the power to be able to do so. That's lust. When I fail, then I'm furious with myself. I will make myself pay. I will call myself names. I will work harder to make sure I put the keys the damn right place that it should be in. Why do we do that?

Starting point is 00:43:14 It sounds like we're punishing ourselves, but that's not delightful. So why would we choose to, why do we do that to ourselves then? Well, but it feels like control. Oh, is that why? It feels like we have now a power to shake. It's almost like there's a part of us, right, that's punishing a part of us, no?

Starting point is 00:43:28 Absolutely beautifully put it. Totally so. So if we, again, come back to that notion of, we live with murderers and adulterers. I happen to be one as well. And my children had the effect of my own adultery and murder. And so that's the grief, but it's also the hunger for redemption. It's why when I married my wife, I didn't know this, but I somehow believe that she would be part of a redemption

Starting point is 00:43:55 that would change the world I came from into the world that I wanted. Come on. That's every marriage. Every marriage. Ever said in front of a group of people, you're marrying your idol and you're hoping this God will indeed redeem you from the God who didn't do what you thought that God should do. None of us tell the truth. That's why, in some ways, you know, the Psalmist eventually says something along the lines if it's better to be at a funeral than a wedding. Because funerals usually have a little more truth because the body is right in front of you. That may sound a little depressing.

Starting point is 00:44:33 But the reality is, again, we come back to, can we tell the truth? Can I tell the truth about myself? Can I tell the truth about my wife? And can she tell the truth about me? Can my children tell the truth? Or do we have to pretend? To create the facade that we all know is just bullshit, while simultaneously living with the bullshit,

Starting point is 00:44:54 as if it's a paté. I love what you quoted earlier, because I think it applies to this, the kindness of God. Right? What was the line? It's two for. It is the kindness of God that leads to repentance.

Starting point is 00:45:08 And then Paul's phrase is this. And you can almost hear him weeping as he says this. Why do you treat the kindness of God with contempt? So the reality is that when you lose your keys, you have contempt for yourself. And God is saying, why do you treat my kindness with contempt? Can we talk about? Can we engage? The loss of your keys may be an issue.

Starting point is 00:45:32 It may be late to your appointment. It may be very disturbing to the person that you're wanting to oppress. but what would it mean for you to bear my kindness now and participate in my kindness? Yeah, I think it's the kindness of God that enables me to be honest about my own poverty. Yes. Because if I don't know that kindness isn't there

Starting point is 00:45:54 and this is all I've got, then I can't risk being poor. Yeah. So how can Paul say when he says in 1st Timothy 1? And here's a statement worthy of your full acceptance. Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners and then the phrase of whom I have the worst. And unless we want to accuse St. Paul of lying to seem holy, which I don't, then he must have meant it. This is the thing about the saints, huh, when they say I'm the worst of all sinners, they actually meant that.

Starting point is 00:46:27 But the reason I brought up that verse again is to your point, can we tell the truth? And I think the answer is no unless the kindness of God is real. Right. And if it is, okay, okay, are we sure? Yes, we promise. Okay, then honey, you can say the truth about me. Kids, you can say the truth about dad. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:46:51 So, appropriation, meaning can I tell the truth fully completely? I've never had to be in a court of law. And I'm so grateful for that to have to put my hand on a Bible and to say, I will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I've never done that in my whole life. So how am I going to do that in the context? I understand the purpose for saying it, but there is something malformed in that.

Starting point is 00:47:14 So all I can say is, as the kindness of God becomes more real, I can bear more truth. I can't bear the whole truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. But I'm growing. Yeah, you know, I don't know how many more years I have left on this earth, but I hope to be, in one sense, more aware of the goodness of God. I would have despaired if I did not believe in the goodness of God in the land of the living. So I'm hoping, in whatever years I have left, that something of the goodness of God captures more of my own contemptuous heart. Okay, beautiful.

Starting point is 00:47:54 All right, I want to go back to your 19. You see the photo. So how, what can you just lead us through your life a little bit here and maybe the things that you find helpful? I don't know. Did you date and get married before you went to university to become a therapist? What's the? Yeah, well, I'm age 12. My parents are partying in the basement and they've left with a number of their friends, drinks that are unfinished.

Starting point is 00:48:21 I don't know if I thought alcohol will help me deal with the trauma of living. But I just had a couple drinks, finish their drinks. And I know I felt so much better. So age 12, age 13, I'm beginning to drink when my parents drink. They also had large liquor cabinets. So they didn't notice a few shots gone. And I'm beginning to feel good, just good. Age 15, 15 and a half.

Starting point is 00:48:54 I looked older than I appeared. And so at age 15, I was able to go into a liquor store and buy, you know, 10 bottles of scotch. And then I'd sell them. I was an entrepreneur. And I started selling to a guy who said, you know, you can make a whole lot more money by selling pot. And it's much more convenient, smaller. You don't have to cart home on your 10-speed bike, a box of gin. So I started using and then I started selling.

Starting point is 00:49:33 So from age 15, 16, I'm involved in illicit pharmaceutical sales. So by the time I'm 19... Pot specifically or others? I, you know, I had at least some standard. I didn't sell heroin. But pretty much everything else. Okay. So I'm in a small cartel and I'm selling.

Starting point is 00:49:57 And around age 20, we heard that the Cleveland Mafia was beginning to take over college campuses and selling drugs and that there were possible contracts put out on people who were already known as drug dealers. It was the first time I actually had to engage the question of whether or not I was ready to die. Were you making quite a bit of money? I was making hundreds of thousands of dollars. How old are you? At that point? Yeah. 17, 18, 19.

Starting point is 00:50:34 You're making hundreds and thousands of dollars at the age of 17? Okay, this is clearly not the point of the story, but what were you doing with the money? Oh, I was having a lot of fun. Yeah. Or what at that time felt like fun. So was anyone else your age? At all, I was with two other folks that were, you know, we were making a lot of money. Did your mom ask questions?

Starting point is 00:50:54 Oh, my gosh. Kind of the event of meeting my wife. Let me show for that. So I'm 19 years of age. I've just done a drug deal in Fort Lauderdale. It's spring break. People from where I lived used to go to Fort Lauderdale. So I finished a drug deal, made about $10,000, walked out of a condo.

Starting point is 00:51:18 And I'm walking away thinking, if I get about a minute, two minutes, three minutes, I don't get busted, I'm good. I get out on the beach and I see this beautiful young woman walk by. And you know those moments where you go, I know her, I know her, I think I know her. So I started like following her. And I stopped and said, Becky, it happened to be a girl that I knew from high school. And so we started talking, had a nice conversation, and I said, do you want to be with some of our friends? Some people you know, some from college. We're down half a mile or so from here.

Starting point is 00:51:59 She came. We stayed together. This was a girl that I fell in love with in 10th grade. She sat one row over, three seats back in French class. I used to draw my pencil surreptitiously, thinking that she wouldn't notice to stare at her. legs, beautiful legs. So all of a sudden, I'm out there and other friends are starting to, like, move in on her. So it's like six o'clock at this point.

Starting point is 00:52:30 We're in the hotel room. We've got pizzas. And a friend of mine is making a move on her. And I'm like, I'm going to kill you because I wanted to be with this girl for a long, long, long time. Yeah. What do you do? If I beat this guy up, I don't think it's going to impress.

Starting point is 00:52:48 this woman. So I just said to her, I don't know why I said to it, would you like to take a trip to Pluto? And she's like, yes, I would. So she got two ice buckets.

Starting point is 00:53:03 She got a blanket. She got straws so that we'd have a breathing apparatus. And we went out to the beach and I flew her. I was using psilocybin, a hallucinogenic.

Starting point is 00:53:12 She was straight. And I flew her to Pluto. I'm back over three hours. Forgive me. She knew you were referring to drugs. Oh, yeah. Okay. So we had a lovely time.

Starting point is 00:53:25 She gave me her a number. I lost it. So six days later, I'm flying back. From Pluto? Yeah. Well, now from Fort Lauderdale to Ohio. And I've got about $9,500 in my bag. And I gave the bag to, this is ancient,

Starting point is 00:53:43 where you just literally would hand the bag over to somebody and say, I'm going to Columbus. Ohio. They would take it. I went in, gave the ticket. They looked at it and said, this is a one-way ticket here, a kid. Now, I had very long hair. I looked very disreputable. And he basically was like, screw you, kid. So I had $5 to my name in my pocket. They wouldn't give me my bag back. Why? Well, because I look bad. Okay. And they wanted to screw me. And so all of a sudden, I'm in a bind. Like, how am I going to get back to Ohio with $5? I did one. I did one. what any middle class drug dealer would do.

Starting point is 00:54:19 I called my mom. And she said, maybe for the first time ever, anything like this, she said, you got yourself into this. You get yourself out. Hung up on me. So I had $5.

Starting point is 00:54:33 And all of a sudden I remembered, Becky, was staying at the Beach Blank Hotel. Beach Blank Hotel. Well, there are hundreds of beach blank hotels. So I got $5 worth of dimes and started calling. It's a Becky Gilbert registered.

Starting point is 00:54:54 Wow. About 70, 80 cents, I realized. Now, I'm hallucinating that it may not be under her name. So I started saying, four girls from Ohio. Okay. You can hear the line. How do I know where the girls are from? Now I'm down to about $2.50.

Starting point is 00:55:15 Wow. And all of a sudden it dawned to me. I got to ask something else. And I said, they're driving a white Toyota. The line is, what do you want me to do? Go out and look in the driveway or in the parking lot? So I'm down to now maybe a dollar left. And the guy goes, no Becky Gilbert.

Starting point is 00:55:35 I don't know where the girls are from. I'm not going to go look in the park. And he goes, wait a minute, a white Toyota is leaving right now. Whoa. And I said, I beg of you, beg of you, go stop the car. They went out. Becky came in and obviously, or maybe it's not obvious,

Starting point is 00:55:55 Becky's my wife. Yeah. So we're in now a new relationship. I'm driving all four girls back for Ohio. We get to a small gas station

Starting point is 00:56:11 and I walked in, pay for the gas. I didn't have any money. And some of the employees there see this hippie looking kid and start pushing me.

Starting point is 00:56:29 I'm not fond of being pushed. Certainly not then. So I hit one of them. And a little scuffle occurred and already I'm outnumbered. I run. The cash register is open. If I'm already in trouble,

Starting point is 00:56:47 I need money. So I grabbed. a bunch of 20s and ran. They come after me, us in the car, shooting shotguns. Okay, whoa, hang on. Were you running or were you in the car with the four girls at this point? Well, I ran to the car, got it in the car, and we drove off. They follow shooting.

Starting point is 00:57:06 They being the people who are pushing you, not the owners of the establishment. Well, the people owning it. So, again, the frame I'm trying to get to is, like my wife, I mean, We're just a matter of about six months from 50 years. My wife had enough data. The fact she chose to be in a relationship with me. It's her fault. I will say she had enough data to know you better run.

Starting point is 00:57:33 Okay, back to the shotguns. Well, if they were really sincere, they would have killed us. Okay. But I think they just wanted to see if they could get us to stop. I mean, they were not that bad of shots. What were the girls doing in the car? Freaking out. What were you doing?

Starting point is 00:57:49 Look, a Dotson is not exactly one of the power cars to be able to run away from. So I just know if they want to stop us and kill us, they can do that. But I think they just let us go. So here you've got a marriage built on. This is a woman who's drawn to danger, drawn to oddity, drawn to a man who's drawn to a man who basically say, do you want to take a trip to Pluto? Yeah. Sounds more interesting than being hit on by a man I don't know eating pizza in a hotel room.

Starting point is 00:58:29 Yeah. So every marriage, like every friendship, is this strange array, whether we know it or not, of this trajectory toward redemption. But for mostly, we don't really have a clue of how. how God's choosing to work in the exigencies of our day, our week, our month, or years, as to why did you get drawn to this particular woman when I had relationships with many women? Why this woman? Why? Toward me.

Starting point is 00:59:04 Well, that's a trauma history. That's a redemption history. That's the intersection of loss and anger. But also the playful God who's working through kindness to disrupt in so many ways, our own movement toward death. How long were you dating Becky before you married her? Well, that event occurred. I didn't see her for next five years.

Starting point is 00:59:29 Oh, wow. And really out of the kindness of God because neither of us knew Jesus at that point. And by the time we both had come apart to a relationship with God, we were in a very different place to begin to have a relationship than that. So during that five years is when you came to Christ?

Starting point is 00:59:54 Well, back to the street and to the Cleveland Mafia. You know, at that point, my best friend who I met when I was 13 had been sharing with me the gospel. So I knew about Jesus. I just thought it was all ridiculous. So, but I knew enough that at the thought of death, there was a moment where I just literally went, fine. That was my point of conversion. That night we went to here literally the first time I'd ever been in a church.

Starting point is 01:00:31 And it was a sermon that set the direction of my whole life. Okay. Were you so convinced of death or the threat of death? What made you, was it just the word that you may get killed or was it more than that? Yeah, the prospect that, again, these are details that, you know, a key of pot generally in the past would have been about that big, about that thick. Yeah. We were seeing kilos of pot come in that were this small, I mean, so small, meaning it had to be packaged by a professional organization. Gotcha.

Starting point is 01:01:11 And they were stamped. It was the Cleveland Mafia. And so we had enough data that the Cleveland Mafia was moving into the broader territory to actually have at least a good possibility that it was true that were contracts out. I don't know. I can't say for sure. But it was enough to scare me. If you've been sitting on a business idea, I want to encourage you to stop waiting for permission. One of the things I've learned through Pints with Aquinas is that most successful businesses don't begin with a perfect point.

Starting point is 01:01:42 plan. Instead, they begin with somebody just deciding to start. We have sold books, rosaries, and a whole lot of daily wire merchandise through our Shopify storefront. And one thing I appreciated early on was that I didn't have to become an expert in online retail to get going. Everything we needed to start selling was already there. I sell books and rosaries on our daily wire store. In fact, our rosaries were actually the best selling product. on Daily Wire Shop right now. When someone landed on our Daily Wire Shop and was ready to buy, Shopify checkout just worked. The process was smooth, customers could complete their purchase easily, and when they came back later, checkout was even faster. And that matters, because every minute

Starting point is 01:02:28 you're not worrying about technical problems is a minute you can spend actually growing your business. Shopify handles the infrastructure so you can focus on serving customers and building something worthwhile. With Shopify, nothing stands between your idea and a real business, so go make it one. Start your free trial at Shopify.com slash pints. Start your free trial today at Shopify.com slash pints. Most of us remember moments when a single conversation changed the direction of our lives. For one particular man named John, that moment came during an unexpected pregnancy. His first reaction wasn't excitement, though, it was fear. He wondered whether he was capable of being a father at all. But then, he and his partner connected with pre-born. They met people who genuinely cared.

Starting point is 01:03:16 They received a free ultrasound, and suddenly this wasn't just a problem to solve. It was a child to love. John says that was the moment everything came together for him. I love that, because so many people aren't looking for someone to solve all their problems. They're looking for someone to help them take the next faithful step. That's exactly what pre-born does. For just a just, $28, you can sponsor an ultrasound and give parents those opportunities to choose life. Dial pound 250 and say baby. That's pound 250 baby or visit preborn.com slash pints. What stands out to you about John's story? Let me know in the comments. For me, it's how ordinary the story is. We all feel fear. John wasn't a superhero. He was a man who was scared.

Starting point is 01:03:56 And yet when he received support and clarity, he found the courage to embrace fatherhood. Dial pound 250 and say baby. That's pound 250 baby. Or visit preborn.com. com slash pints. All right, so tell me, I'll tell me about, do you press this up? Okay, so tell me about how you went to church.

Starting point is 01:04:13 So I get it, right? The fear of death. And you said, fine. Fine. Yeah. Whatever. That's all good. True.

Starting point is 01:04:20 So at that point, my best friend who had been praying for me, honoring me, inviting me to Bible study, I was actually intrigued by some of the Bible. And, like,

Starting point is 01:04:34 first encounter with Aquinas, first encounter with Calvin, first encounters with Kierkegar. I mean, they were just, I mean, there were just, it was like a realm I had never explored a thought about. But I made too much money and I didn't believe it. Yeah. Other than that, though, I was in. I was in. So we go to church. It's a country Presbyterian church.

Starting point is 01:05:01 And the dude in the front has on this big black row. And from my standpoint, where I'm sitting, he looks like a crow. I mean, just like a human crow with a head, and then he's got this book. And it looks like something from Harry Potter. So it's a big Bible. And he starts talking. And I'm, I mean, I'm sure I'm supposed to be listening. But I'm just looking at the people around me.

Starting point is 01:05:28 And, you know, some of them have crosses, big wooden crosses, this is 70s. So they've got crosses on and they're carrying these big leather bibles. And it's like, this is a weird world. But this is now my people. Like if I believe and these people believe, then we're sort of like in the same family. So let you. I'll let you light. Yes.

Starting point is 01:06:05 So I'm going to just ask, you know, just keep talking about nothing until you... Yeah. Well, I know enough about the word fellowship. I even know the word coinania. I know, meaning, I've gone to Bible studies. I've gone to where the Christian community would have food on a Sunday night. And they were cute girls. So, I mean, it's not like I'm...

Starting point is 01:06:27 Completely oppositional. Yeah. I'm not an unfriendly human being. So, like, I could get along with these people. Yeah. So we're in church, and he starts talking, and I'm looking around, and I hear the words, Balaam's ass. I'm like, really? No one's going to laugh at that, just me?

Starting point is 01:06:51 All right. I'm going to pretend that's normal. Is that what we're doing? I didn't know you use language like that. Like, Bailen's ass. Like, you know, ass. I mean, I know some of the Bible, but not a lot. So I'm a little intrigued, but mostly.

Starting point is 01:07:12 Like, what are other people doing with the use of this word? You all seem fine with this. Who is Bailam? And should we be talking about his posterior? Yes, exactly. So then he begins talking about Balaam's ass talking. I'm serious. And you've got no idea it's referring to a donkey.

Starting point is 01:07:36 No idea. Oh, zero. And I'm like, what kind of religion have I gotten myself into? The best card. Now, you need to understand. Keep going, keep going. You've got to get down.

Starting point is 01:07:54 Oh, come on, yeah. Whatever. The bottom line is, I'd encountered lots of talking animals. I hallucinated a lot. Uh-huh. That wasn't the issue. Yeah. It was like you are all fine with this, too.

Starting point is 01:08:09 And I don't presume you're all hallucinating. So all of a sudden, he changes, and he begins talking about Balaam's donkey. And I'm like, oh, my God, it's okay. We're just talking about talking animals, not talking body parts. So that's my first sermon. And really what had stayed with me is this. If God can use Bailam's ass, I'm in good company. Right.

Starting point is 01:08:39 If he can use an ass Yeah, I forget who it was who said I'm sure it's been said multiple times We're multiple people about how The ass which brought Christ in You know, to Jerusalem I can do that I kind of hope

Starting point is 01:08:59 That the ass that brought him in Was related to Balaam's house Yeah That would be I should write a story about that It would have a heritage to it That makes Yeah

Starting point is 01:09:10 So Was it an intellectual conversion? Was it an emotional kind of conversion? Terrified conversion. Terrified? And it didn't stick. Okay. Meaning there's a sense in which the beginnings of the gospel began to have a kind of nascent.

Starting point is 01:09:32 Come on, let me, let me like. Don't your mouth. No. We go, yeah, baby. Got it. You can tell I've not smoked till a long time. If it were cocaine, however, you would have friggin. So, something of, again, you can hear certain thematic categories here.

Starting point is 01:09:53 There's an oddity to my life. There's something unpredictable to my life. There's something dangerous to my life. And my wife was drawn to that. I think a lot of women, and I'm not saying appropriate or inappropriate, would be repulsed by that, would be terrified by that. It would be whatever. But that's because she grew up in a home where her father was an eccentric, playful, wild man who you never knew quite what he might say or do.

Starting point is 01:10:27 So in so many ways, my wife saw within me what connected her to her own father. Connected her. So she wasn't looking for someone totally opposite. No. No. Thank God. Yeah. All right. So dread leads you to Jesus, but is there any sort of like intellectual, emotional acceptance of it as a real reality? Like I remember when I accepted Christ, it was like, it was like this. It would be like standing in front of a dead body laying in a coffin. And then the body wakes up. That emotional reaction you would have, that's what happened to me. I was like, this is true. That's what happened to me. You have something like that?

Starting point is 01:11:15 I wish I were that mature. No. Again, every conversion, every marriage, every life is going to have a kind of thematic narrative uniqueness. My deep conviction is we're all characters. And on the stage, as Shakespeare would say, all of life is the stage, we're meant to play out something of the uniqueness of the redemptive arc that we've been invited to live. So I converted, I became a Christian, but did I stop doing drugs? No. Did I stop selling drugs? No. Did I stop a lifestyle that was contrary to everything about my relationship with God? No. So when my best friend decided to go to seminary and at the very end of his college career, he said to me, are you graduating? And I'm like, I don't know. He said, well, how do you mean you don't know?

Starting point is 01:12:18 Well, I didn't, I probably went to only about 50 or 60% of classes because I was a businessman. So I paid for people to go to class. And so I didn't know. And he said, well, you need to go and check out whether you're graduating. So I went to the, I don't know, the office to find that out. And I was going to graduate in June. And I said, what's my major? what turned out to be philosophy and religion.

Starting point is 01:12:45 I was like, yeah, I remember taking a lot of those courses. So that intrigued me. So all of a sudden, I had sort of thought I'd go to law school. And so my best friend said, did you take your L-SAT? And I was like, no. No, I didn't even know you had to. I just thought you went. He said, well, what are you going to do?

Starting point is 01:13:06 Like, are you going to get a job? Like, no. and he simply said about the only graduate school that would accept you would be a seminary. So, and I'm like, why would I go to a seminary? And what he said was, why don't you just think about God for a year? Then you can go to law school. Not bad advice. That was the beginning.

Starting point is 01:13:31 And I think in so many ways, that was the context where the reality of the resurrection began to dawn. on me in a way in which it began to have that recalibration of, if this is true, that a dead Jew from a no-place, Semitic land was raised from the dead, maybe I need to rethink my whole life. So seminary was the context, I would say, in some sense. I came into a relationship where both the emotional, where the intellectual thematic began to dawn in a different way. What was the Jesus revolution that they talk about?

Starting point is 01:14:26 Where was that taking place? California? All around me. All around. Was it? Yeah. Seventies. Okay.

Starting point is 01:14:31 Interesting. What was that like? I thought they were just insane. Is this the Jesus freaks? Yeah. Yeah, they said they were freaks but didn't do drugs and they were irritating for the most part. Why? Too happy?

Starting point is 01:14:44 No, they were, yeah, a lack of sensibility of, you know, of just suffering. They were too happy. It was a kind of happiness that was just didn't seem to have a substance to it. I see. Yeah, it didn't seem real, wasn't grounded, wasn't honest. Yeah. Were they fornicating and doing drugs? I mean, I know they, okay, fair enough.

Starting point is 01:15:11 But was it, were they trying to live holy lives? I think they were. Was it like the hippies, but we just call it Jesus? The community that my best friend and others were involved in actually were really sincere. And I love their sincerity and I love their deep sense of care for one another. There was something about their lives that was compelling. So, I mean, I remember I had a good. good friend who shared with me that she was going to take her life. And there had been a severe breakup

Starting point is 01:15:43 with one of a significant man in her life. And I had offered to see him taken off the earth. And she was not willing to let that happen. And essentially, she was saying to me, I'm done with life. And I remember having that sense of panic, like, what can I do to keep this person whom I care for from doing harm to herself? And I said, have you ever thought about relationship with Jesus Christ? She's like, what do you mean? So I went through what is sometimes called the Romans Road as to what it meant to be in a relationship with Jesus.

Starting point is 01:16:28 And she was like, how do I have a relationship? with him. And I said, well, it is so simple. Literally, like the thief on the cross, all you have to do is to ask if you want to be with him in his kingdom. And she said, how do I do that? And I said, I'm going to pray a prayer. And I'm asking you to hear and respond. And if it's ultimately your words, Jesus will come and live in your heart. She prayed the prayer. I remember the change from despair, suicidal desire, to a face of joy, literally a face of joy after she had received Jesus. And her first words were, I never knew you were a Christian.

Starting point is 01:17:18 And then I had to say, I'm not. And you can't hang out with me. You can't do the things that we've done before. I'm going to introduce you to good friends, and they will nurture and care for you and help you grow in your faith. So, I mean, I saw something of the goodness of God in the land of the living, but I didn't want my life to be burdened by a dead Jew who was raised from the dead. So it's just been a slow. I don't claim to much maturity today. But the reality is something captured me.

Starting point is 01:17:58 And that slow, kind work of when Jesus says in Revelations 3, a knock on the door, I believe he literally is knocking on every human heart, including mine. It's not about salvation. It's about his presence coming in to, in some sense, capture more of who we are for his purposes. So in some ways, people have asked me, when did you become a Christian? And part of the answer is today, today, maybe yesterday. Yeah. So, okay, so you're in seminary for what purpose?

Starting point is 01:18:33 Because my best friend went. But when someone asked you and you had to give a better answer, what did you say? That was it. I didn't want a job. So, okay, so Protestant seminary. So is it to, I'm not sure it means the exact same thing. Was it to become a pastor? Is that what these people were doing?

Starting point is 01:18:52 Yeah, I guess, most of them. Some were going on to the academy and teaching. I see. Yeah, yeah. But overall, I think there were deeply sincere men and women who wanted to know God better and to study scripture, et cetera, et cetera. I mean, the first time I registered, I was told I had to take Greek in Hebrew. I told the register I was not going to do so. The register looked at me and said, you have to do so.

Starting point is 01:19:18 I thought I would explain myself. And I said, I have no intention ever to be a missionary in Israel or Greece. And she's like, she looked a bit like my dog does sometimes, like that look like. And she goes, the Bible is written in Hebrew and Greek. that's why you need to take those languages. And I looked at them. And I said, my best friend gave me a Bible before we got here. And it's in English.

Starting point is 01:19:59 It didn't impress me. It's fine with me. Yeah, I'm all right. Not knowing. Okay. So how long did you make it? I graduated. With what?

Starting point is 01:20:10 Master of divinity, which I think is one of the craziest. Master of divinity. I am, you are sitting with a master. of davenate. When did you decide you might want to be a therapist? Well, I ended up basically going to a church, and the church realized in my internship there that I was, I use this language, that I'm a gifted man,

Starting point is 01:20:40 I'm a good orator, but I'm deeply troubled. So they didn't want me working with quote-unquote, good normal people. So the first group that I ran, so-called Bible study, was with a 72-year-old ex-Vodville player who was married to a 45-year-old woman who he pimped. So she was a prostitute of women. And so I had several alcoholics. I had one man who had just been arrested for sexual harm of, of, of, you know,

Starting point is 01:21:19 a child. So I had the... So they want you to run a group in the church. That was your... Like, I don't know why they hired me, but they did. But they wanted me to work with people who were so troubled that I could hardly do any more damage to. But also, the kind of people that nobody else wanted to work with. I'm with my people. Yeah. So I really had a ball. Meaning, I began to study scripture, to teach it. I began to... to actually believe it. And all of a sudden, I'm finding myself working primarily with very troubled, very harmed,

Starting point is 01:21:59 and harming people. And I'm seeing something of the work of God. And all of a sudden, you know, you do that for a while and you realize that you're not likely the kind of person who most churches would want to have. And were you seeing any level of redemption taking place in those people's lives? huge joy, change, repentance, people changing. So it was lovely to, in one sense, be able to stand on the neck of evil and actually grow goodness, myself and others. But then the question is, if the church is likely a place that would not naturally take someone like me, what's the

Starting point is 01:22:42 context to be able to do the work? And that seemed like, again, from a master of divinity to a master's degree in family studies and then eventually a PhD. So I sort of fell into a lot of my own life and fell into in this sense, this career. Did you ever try to reach out to your mom and stepfather to convert them? Oh my gosh. I had in my early experiences a conversation with my father, a stepfather. And he and this lovely expensive restaurants shattered a glass saying to me in his own rageful, quiet way, don't you ever bring Jesus into a conversation with me again? Okay.

Starting point is 01:23:25 So. I wonder where that came from? Out of his own heartache, like trauma, World War II vet, first wave of Pellilu, second wave of Okinawa. So my father, stepfather, I won't keep going back. I'll just say my father. saw violence, perpetrated violence, and his heart was cold in heart. He had learned to shut down everything within him.

Starting point is 01:23:56 So, again, what is he going to do with a son who's loquacious, talkative, responsible for his wife's emotional standing? Still? Well, my father's no longer on the earth. No, but I mean, when you were in the restaurant, like at that age in seminary, were you still responsible for your mother's? Oh, absolutely. How so? Yeah, well. You weren't living, were you living with them?

Starting point is 01:24:21 Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. I was married. Oh, you were married, okay. Yeah, I mean, in some ways, that kind of obligation doesn't go away because you're married. Okay. That sense of responsibility. Did your mother like your wife? No.

Starting point is 01:24:37 But she was socially competent enough to show a certain self-warfare. Yeah. But nonetheless, little biting remarks, little statements that indicated that I had betrayed her and that my marriage was a usurping of the relationship that was primary. And in many ways, I didn't have the wisdom or the willingness to engage the reality that I had never left my mother or father. You know, the first command with regard to marriages, leave your mother and father. Yeah. Did you feel a certain disgust towards your mother as one might towards an overbearing parent? Just get away from me.

Starting point is 01:25:24 No? Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, but this strange combination of I'm obligated and responsible and I know that the fragility of her life depends on some sense on me. Okay. Well, simultaneously. And once that's always having my arm up to keep her at a distance. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:25:42 Is she calling too often? Is she trying to come around too often? Oh my gosh. Phone calls. I would have years of being told, wow. Why haven't you called? And I would say, Mom, I wrote on the calendar. We talked three days ago at 2.30 in the afternoon.

Starting point is 01:26:07 for 42 minutes. So the data, data never helps. So the phone goes both ways. Yeah. Yeah. So that bind of the relationship with my mom, if I look at the relationship with Becky,

Starting point is 01:26:23 in so many ways, she had a very cruel mother who was very demeaning, very critical, and a very kind, playful father. And so in so many ways, I was the perfect presence. I was intrigued by her. I was curious about her.

Starting point is 01:26:43 I loved to hear her talk. Yet, she depended on me for a kind of social panache to be able to take us into worlds. She was very taken by danger because her father was a very dangerous man, a good man, but a dangerous man. So in many ways, we marry for redemption. We marry somebody, even if we don't have language for it, that we think will alter something of the heartache of what we come from.

Starting point is 01:27:14 Okay. Well, I was perfect for Becky. She was perfect for me. She could bear something of my unpredictability, something of my impulsiveness, my danger, not always with impunity, but also with some degree of goodness between us. So I think it was years for us to be able, we fit well until my wife began to grow. Oh, you've been reading my diary. I remember the day. I'm a young therapist.

Starting point is 01:27:51 And people, when they call, don't call for, hey, do you want to play tennis? They call because of problems. So this is in the day where you don't have ID, you don't. know who's calling. So I never wanted to answer the phone. No. So Becky, answer the phone. And she said something like, hey, hey, John. And I looked at her like, this look like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And I think she had come to a point where she was so tired of covering for me that she said, John, I don't know what Dan will want to do with your phone call, but I'm going to put the phone down and let him decide.

Starting point is 01:28:34 I looked at her like, you're dead to me. Shall we say, this phone call will not last for eternity. I will find you. So I have this lovely call with John, dealt with the issues that he wanted to. She was in what we would have called our mutual office.

Starting point is 01:28:58 And she was reading a book. And I opened the door with kind of cold rage. if that makes sense, that kind of that, and I walked in and I said, what did you think you're doing? And she said, living out what you wrote in this book called Bold Love, that you have written beautifully and well, but don't live. I'm sure there were other moments of disruption, but I don't know if there was ever a clear moment.

Starting point is 01:29:39 Golly. Where, shall we say, tectonic shifts occur, and they do, but they occur over long periods and very small movement. But it was a huge movement where we began to address the reality of my power, impulsivity, and my threat of anger needed to be addressed on her part with her courage to name what's true. And that's really what you have in the word in Genesis chapter 2, Azer, where often it gets translate, help meet. Well, the word Azer, helper, is only used of God. It's 21 times in the Old Testament. And almost every use is about God rescuing in the middle of a war on behalf of the people

Starting point is 01:30:30 of God. So when we think of women as being someone subordinate in some form helping the man accomplish the purposes. Well, the real purpose is what? Transformation of our body's mind, heart, will, and strength to become more like Jesus. It was one of those moments where the shift began to occur

Starting point is 01:30:53 of she is stepping into being an Azer, a helper, a warrior calling me to love in a way that up to that moment, she had not. Have you ever heard of the Catholic author Christopher West? Oh, yes. Oh my gosh.

Starting point is 01:31:10 Ador him. You'd love him. He'd love you. He was offered a big book deal and it was not a little Catholic publishing house but a big one. I don't remember all the details. But it was going to be called loving her rightly and he thought my ship has come in. He went home and told his wife Wendy about it and she said, it shocked him. You are in no place to write a book.

Starting point is 01:31:35 like that. So it sounds like something similar. Very similar. Yeah. Yeah, I have great respect for him. Yeah, he's a good man. It really is a good man. Yeah, I love him. Yes, wow. God bless your wife. That reminds me too of a little anecdote, well, not an anecdote, but Jordan Peterson. He was saying, you know, what do you want? You want a wife that's going to follow you around and throw rose petals and patch you on the head and call you a good boy? And then he joked. He said, well, maybe that'd be good for a month or maybe longer, but he's like, what do you want a woman who doesn't only see you and love you, but sees and loves the man you could become? Oh, yes.

Starting point is 01:32:13 Someone to contend with. Right. Hope, that the capacity to have hope that the person you're married to could become more like Jesus and that you get the participation, you get to be on the stage, in one sense, not changing them. because no one can force another person to change. But calling, inviting, and in many ways exposing. So this interplay of exposure invitation, I will let you know what's true,

Starting point is 01:32:47 but I allure you with all the goodness of my own life to become the person that you're meant to be. I'll tell you there's nothing like that. I think one of the marks of maturity is learning to appreciate ordinary things done well, a well-made meal, a good conversation, a beautiful book, a strong marriage, and yes, a really good cup of coffee. Most of life isn't built on dramatic moments. It's built on ordinary habits, repeated over time. That's one of the reasons I appreciate seven weeks coffee. My wife and I have tried

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Starting point is 01:34:51 or a coffee mug. It's a true raffle. Your ticket gives you a chance to win the car and every ticket helps support the education and formation of seminarians for the Diocese of Gallup, one of the poorest Catholic dioceses in the United States. So even if you don't win, you've helped form future priests who will serve communities across New Mexico and Arizona. What's the coolest car you've ever owned, driven or desperately wanted as a teenager? The winning ticket will be drawn on July 25, 2006, and you do not. need to be present to win. Even better, V8s for Vocations pays the federal gift tax. So the winner receives the car for the cost of the ticket. Visit v8sforvocations.org and get your tickets today. Is it like our disordered ways of acting and interacting with each other fit, handing glove?

Starting point is 01:35:43 So it works until one of you starts to get some healing and then it's really destabilizing. Because now you have to learn how to deal with a healing person. Yes. And the old ways of acting and interacting aren't working anymore. And so as things are getting better, it feels like they're falling apart. I know what that's like. Yes. My wife and I have experienced that.

Starting point is 01:36:02 Yes. And it's repetitive, meaning it ain't one time. Yeah. So we've had so many multiple experiences of the reality of maturity is a process that the more you grow, the more you see how much you have to grow. So when we think of maturity as a kind of economic model like capitalism, so you keep getting more so that the more begins to make more for you to a point where you don't have to work because the goal is to have passive income. When you apply that to sanctification, you are in a deep pool of poop. So the reality is the more you grow, the more you're aware of, I need grace. more today than I needed it in the context of a wicked life selling drugs.

Starting point is 01:36:56 I think this, I know this is Teresa of Avala's analogy. I don't know if this is exactly how she phrased it. But she talks about, you know, you're walking through a dark tunnel towards the light. And as you get close to the light, you're like, what the bloody hell I got over? You know, what the hell is that? And then the closer you get to it, you're like, I am filthy. Yes. And you had.

Starting point is 01:37:19 But it's the kindness of God that will. you to be all right. Yeah. So it is not self-condemation. I'm such a worm. It's the reality of he wants on my behalf. Yeah. So much joy. So much goodness. He isn't scandalized by your stained shirt. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So how did you what did you, so how did you act when she said, learning what you've written in this book or? Well, the fact that she was holding up a book I wrote. Against you. Against me. The nerve. There was a certain degree to which it was genius.

Starting point is 01:37:55 Yeah. And in that genius, I could not help, but in one sense, be absolutely like, damn. Because she's like, this guy's brilliant, you should read him. Exactly. And I just, okay, a part of me is enraged. But there's also a part of me laughing. And the part that laughs in the face of the invitation to goodness is one of the first. of the most pure parts of us. It's the part of humus dirt. Yeah. Humility. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:38:28 But it's also the word humor. Yeah. So if we begin to go, look, humor has a certain dirtiness. And I'm not talking about blue humor. I'm talking about she had a brilliance of inviting me into a level of exposure. But in it, there was goodness. This was not. And you don't, you're not true to this book. Yeah. It was more like you're a beautiful writer. I wish you lived beautifully. Yeah. Okay. I was in an emergency room with my wife. She was sick again and I was pissed off that she was sick again.

Starting point is 01:39:05 She's not in charge of being sick. She didn't choose to do this, but I decided I would be upset about it. Not loudly, just in a quiet, pissy kind of my life isn't going the way I wanted it to go. And while we're sitting in the emergency room, I get a lot. an email and it's from my publisher because I had written a book and it was about Thomas Aquinas and what he had to say about happiness and it was called How to Be Happy. And I know, do you like the front cover? And she went, yeah, maybe you should read that. So that's the dedication. It was to my very good wife Cameron who upon learning I had written the book said,

Starting point is 01:39:37 wow, you should read that. Yes. That's a beautiful gift to you from her, but is well back. And again, that mutuality of admiration. You know, when a marriage has loved, lost a sense of awe. Like, I am in awe of my wife. She is... How do we lose that? I think in some sense, what contempt does is it denigrates. It degrades. So when, you know, I've worked with so many couples who will not divorce, thank God. But in that, they're living divorce. They have learned a level of distance and disengagement. They are finding. that is what fills their emptiness somewhere else. So they no longer have the interplay of delight and honor, and therefore they have lost a sense of gratitude and awe.

Starting point is 01:40:33 So gratitude and awe is the nature of worship. It's when you are grateful for what your spouse has brought you, even in some of the most agonizing moments, and you can say, I would not be the man I am, and I will not be the man I'm meant to become without the kind of goodness that you have offered. Then there's that, in one sense, thank you. I'm not sure I'm fully grateful for the heartache,

Starting point is 01:40:59 but I'm grateful for who I am becoming and who we are together. Then, when I begin to see my wife play out the reality of who she's meant to be, uniquely different, yet one flesh, and that's not just about sex. That's about a kind of union of hearts. then when I begin to see her playful way of engaging the world with our grandchildren, with our own children, and I'm like, that was brilliant, so good.

Starting point is 01:41:29 I could never have done that the way you just did that. When you hold awe and gratitude for your spouse, unbelievably, there will be growth, not worship of one another, but ultimately the kind of worship where I say, I thank you, God, for bringing me to this person. But I think we think that awe and gratitude will be given to. to us passively, like the initial moments of attraction and delight. Yes. Well, the initial period is based on cocaine.

Starting point is 01:41:56 Okay. Well, no wonder it was a fan. I've never done cocaine. But if that's what it's like. Yes, you have. You have because the courtship period is a period with your body. We know enough by the research that the nature of dopamine, the arousal that is there in that initial three months, six months, nine month. period is comparable to doing cocaine. So you've got this period of time in which you're both

Starting point is 01:42:23 mad. You're madly in love. Yes, you're mad. But the realities begin to, shall we say, show themselves three months, six months, maybe even on the honeymoon. And the reality of the disruption that we are both different and desire is never the same. Like, you can be guaranteed of this. Your desire for sex will never be equivalent to your spouse. She may want more, you may want more at certain different points of time, but desire will never be identical. So how we manage, which is a bad verb, how we engage desire and the difference

Starting point is 01:42:59 is really the playground for how we're going to grow in intimacy. Because it will never be equivalent. How will we deal with those differences? And we are culturally, familiarly, relationally, difference creates the

Starting point is 01:43:18 bound of contempt. We hold difference with some degree of you're a little bit unlike me. So I think... But that's what I love about it.

Starting point is 01:43:32 So what do you... But the unique part is obviously you have a relationship where those differences have created tension and in that tension the two of you have grown to be able to engage that in a way that a lot of spouses don't.

Starting point is 01:43:47 No, I meant it more superficially. Like the best thing about my wife is that she's not a dude. Yeah. And she's not me. I love that about it. That's my favorite thing about it. Well, that's my point, though. Okay.

Starting point is 01:43:58 You actually like the differences she creates in your marriage and your desires are not equivalent. And you now have to deal with her desire, your desire. Yeah. And what most people do is compromise. So then that's what you're saying, that difference there. So that's a different kind of difference that I'm talking about. A different kind of difference.

Starting point is 01:44:12 Do you like that? So this is the difference you're saying that can lead to contempt. Yes. Because if we don't bless the difference and the disruption, if we don't bless the reality of women, I want sex and you don't,

Starting point is 01:44:24 how come? Like, I'm curious. Yeah. How did you do that poorly? And then how did, if you don't want me asking? And then how did you learn to bless the difference and what does that mean? Well, again, don't make it sound like I've arrived.

Starting point is 01:44:39 But in the arriving, what I would say is, as you begin to go, there have been many times in her marriage where she has wanted sex more than me. Part of that has to do with my own story. I have a history of past sexual abuse. Okay. I have complications in an inappropriate sexual bind with my mother. So, again, do you think those things get sort of flushed away because you said I do at the altar?

Starting point is 01:45:10 I would think we hope that they do. Yes. Well, neurologically, if you think you can change neurons by a mere passing up the hand. Yeah, this ring is a magic ring. Yeah. Doesn't happen. Yeah. So the reality is that she was often more passionate, pursued me more.

Starting point is 01:45:27 And there'd be times where I'm like, I'm irritated. I'm working. I'm thinking. I'm not aroused. Yeah. So just having the beginnings of conversation, not pushing it aside, not being bound by shame, but actually having conversation. like, wait a minute, there are times I want sex, you don't. Sometimes you do, I don't.

Starting point is 01:45:45 How are we going to not manage this? But what is going on for your body? What's going on for your heart toward me? So the conversations that have conflict, we often think conflict is what divides us. It isn't. Conflict is what gives us the potentiality for curiosity for a kind of, who are you? Like what planet did you come from? And often she'll say, well, you came from Pluto. It's not my world, but you did fly me there. So let's talk. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:46:19 But every conversation has a certain threat to it. We're all still at the core of us at some level afraid we will not be loved. And therefore, every hard conversation is a risk of vulnerability. It's a risk of, in one sense, stepping into the potential. potentiality of shame. And if we cover shame by our own contempt, contempt for ourselves or contempt for the other, then it becomes a way of, in one sense, managing the uncertainty of nakedness. And they were naked. It's the last verse before the calamity of Adam and Eve's choice. And they were naked, and they knew no shame. Okay. What's the distinction between?

Starting point is 01:47:08 contempt and shame. I think you said the two go together like smoke and fire. So if shame is guilt for who I am, not what I've done or something like that, you say. Well, it's that sense of there's something dark, horrible, smelly, that I hate about me. Yes. It's wrong about me. I don't want you to see. And I need to hide it. So what did Adam and you do at that point? Well, the first thing is they hid. Yeah, yeah. And then they covered. And then when Adam is exposed, what does he say? It's the woman you made. So who does he go against first? God. It's your creational madness. Yeah. You thought this was a good idea. You thought this was a good idea.

Starting point is 01:47:45 Yeah. I like that hippopotamus, a whole lot more than this woman right now. And then she blames the serpent. Exactly. And so the next thing he says is the woman you made. She gave me the fruit. So we turn against God. We turn against our spouse. And if you know Hebrew syntax, like if I, if I, say the phrase, hey, you did a really good job today, but we know the syntax. Yeah. As to what's after the but is what we really want for the person to hear. Hebrew syntax, the first phrase is loudest.

Starting point is 01:48:22 Second phrase, not quite. Third phrase, almost quiet. So here's the third phrase. Yes, I ate it. The woman you gave me, she gave me the fruit. Okay, I ate it. So in that sense, you see contempt to play. Contempt against God, contempt against the woman, and an ownership that actually is not true confession.

Starting point is 01:48:47 Ah. And that ownership that allows for repentance. So if we think about what repentance, what is repentance? We think of it is feeling bad, saying we're wrong, and stop doing it. Yeah. Here's the simplest way of putting it, from my standpoint. What's repentance? Come home.

Starting point is 01:49:05 come home Luke 15 Story of the Prodical So what's repentance Join the party God intends To throw in your honor for merely coming home

Starting point is 01:49:21 Yeah that sounds better It's hilarious I guess the reason we don't repent then Is we don't believe that What we want is found at home Or that we will be welcome home Yeah For his statement, it will be better for me to be at the lowest spot of my father's household.

Starting point is 01:49:42 Yeah. That would be the best. But to be the one who has given a new ring and a new robe and new shoes and have a party, a banquet thrown? You understand. Unthinkable. Why the older brother is basically saying, bullshit. Envy is what kills the human heart. You gave this to your son.

Starting point is 01:50:04 now you're giving him again half the inheritance that he's already squandered the other half? Rage. A sense of justice defined as it's not fair. So when we begin to understand that we're actually invited back to a party and that all we need to do is to say, I want to be with you when you come into your kingdom. It's too easy. Well, I'm not saying that's all. that's the germ of the gospel that begins to grow into that seed that becomes an oak of righteousness.

Starting point is 01:50:45 Okay. Contempt for our spouse, yeah? I think you said this is what kills marriages. Did you say that? Yeah. Why do we hate our spouse? Why use contempt and not hatred? What's the difference?

Starting point is 01:50:59 Well, in some sense, contempt is a form of hatred. Contempt is a way of doing murder. anger, murder, et cetera. An example. This is some time ago, but not that long ago.

Starting point is 01:51:15 I came upstairs and I was trying to get a book and Becky was upstairs and she said, do you want to make love? And I'm like, yeah,

Starting point is 01:51:30 yeah, sounds good. And she said, why don't you go get some cheese and crackers? Yeah. And two glasses of wine.

Starting point is 01:51:41 I'm like, okay. Now, I would normally go down, get a chunk of cheese, put it on a plate, get some saltines, get some wine, bring it up. And I'm like, but that's not my wife. Right. She would want sliced thin cheese arranged around an expensive place. expensive platter. Good crackers. So I'm thinking, this is what my wife wants.

Starting point is 01:52:15 So I get it all ready. I bring it up. I put it on the bed. And she says, can you turn the light off in my office? It's like two in the afternoon. I don't think the light matters. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:52:31 But if you want the light off to make love, I'm good. So I turned, went into a, office, turn the light off, and then I turned, and I, I don't know how to put it better, I bound into bed. Uh-huh. Like, I turned and I. Like a spring book, just jumping.

Starting point is 01:52:48 I went to, like, leaps, and then I jumped into bed. Uh-oh. And I'm literally mid-air, and I'm like, oh, my God. Like, I'm an albatross. I can't fly. And, you know, the moment where you go, you hit the bed, The wine, the cheese rises. Have you ever been in an accident?

Starting point is 01:53:13 Yeah. You know neurologically how our brain works, is it slows everything down. So I'm seeing this all happen in slow motion. The wine going up, I see her face. It's all coming down on a very expensive French duvet. It all lands. She's screaming.

Starting point is 01:53:33 She is so angry. And I can say she swears really well. Her combination of language is really amazing. So she's swearing at me. I'm swearing at me. I'm such a fool. You fool. You just ruined.

Starting point is 01:53:53 Not only the duvet, but making love. Yeah. So she's like, get the duvet off, take it downstairs, put spray on. You know, like, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I go down. all that. It takes 20 minutes or so. I come back up. And she's remade the bed.

Starting point is 01:54:11 Yeah. And she's in bed. And she's ready to make love. Oh. And I'm like, what are you doing? Do you hear my tone? What are you doing? Accusatory? Oh, of course. What are you doing? Like, how do I think, how do I feel? I am so ashamed.

Starting point is 01:54:29 I am such a fool. You think losing keys draws out some negative response? I'm such a fool, you boy, you bounding boy just ruined, not just the duvet. And she's in bed, ready to make love. And I'm angry. I feel exposed. Is she making fun of me? Is she serious?

Starting point is 01:54:54 And I'm like, you may have noticed that I have lost any interest whatsoever. And the next words were one of those where I just go, how'd you come up with this? She looked at me, she said, are you going to let evil win? Hang on, back up. How did she say? How did you come up with this?

Starting point is 01:55:14 You said that. What did that mean? Well, I'm basically saying, how dare you think we have the ability to make love right now? And she goes, are you going to let evil win? And what she's essentially saying is,

Starting point is 01:55:28 are you going to let shame rule your life right now? Good, Becky. Oh, I mean, she is, is a good woman. And I'm like, a part of me is like, hell yes. Yeah. Yeah, I will. Because I've ruined it.

Starting point is 01:55:43 I'm a fool. Let's just get on with our day. Yeah. And she looked at me and she goes, making love is a form of doing spiritual warfare. Like I had never had that thought of my whole brain. Wait a minute. Making love is actually saying hell no to eat. evil and saying heaven yes to God. It's a way of participating in the joy of what heaven will

Starting point is 01:56:12 one day be. Yeah. So I can't say it was the best lovemaking in my life. Wasn't bad. But the point was, there was a sense of, yeah, this is what we are meant to do. We are meant to create life. We are meant to join together in a way in which our bodies, bear goodness on behalf of one another. So shame is never meant to win. And every time it wins, even when it becomes so hidden, because you've hidden those stories, you've dissociated so well,

Starting point is 01:56:49 those stories no longer are part of your consciousness, there's still a sense in which evil is still going to win to the degree shame has root in you. And it's rooted in every one of us. And that's part of what I think marriage is, is a disruption of the purpose. of the power of what contempt and shame bring. They were naked and they knew no shame.

Starting point is 01:57:11 What she's basically saying is, we're going to go back to Genesis 2.25 and begin to have that experience or what it means to be able to be naked together and not be bound to shame. One of the ways you, I think, can know that you're onto something is when you express something in your own language

Starting point is 01:57:31 as if you're the only one who recognized it only to find out that yeah, yeah, that's what we're all talking about. Okay. Yes. So I remember for me, I was on this healing retreat with a fellow you would also love. He's name's Dr. Bob Schutz, terrific fella. And I expressed shame, but I expressed it like no one else knows what this is. Does that make sense?

Starting point is 01:57:52 So here's how I did it. I said, at the core of me, at the very core of me, something is fractured and it cannot be made well. And it's possible for everybody else to be made well, but not me. You don't understand. It's not like a little scar that can heal. It's fundamentally broken. Isn't that lovely? It is so honest, so confessional, and so wrong.

Starting point is 01:58:19 Yes. And yet in that moment, actually what you're saying is, I am so desperate, but I also believe I am so bad. Yeah. And I wouldn't. I don't think I would have said it unless I had have had some hope. Yes. So when we look at what Jesus inaugurates his whole ministry, Luke 4, what does he quote? Yeah, I have come to heal up the brokenhearted.

Starting point is 01:58:44 The brokenhearted. Which means a divided self. Right. A broken divide itself. So if the word devil from the Greek diabolos, which means scattered, the one who scatters, who wishes to sift you as wheat. Right. So we are internally scattered.

Starting point is 01:59:04 Yeah. There are parts of us broken that don't look like they can ever come back. So it almost feels like we're doing the universe good to shut it down with contempt. Make sure we don't do much more harm to the people we do love rather than beginning to believe, no, this is what the gospel is going to bring. Not just eternity, not just heaven. But in one sense, heaven now. Yes. A taste of what we pray when we pray, the Lord's prayer.

Starting point is 01:59:34 It has to be the case. Of course it is. The gospel is that good and better. I mean, think about an imagined scenario. Imagine a man jumps to his death and Jesus brings him back to life. Suppose that's all he did. The guy's like, I was trying to kill myself. Why would you do that?

Starting point is 01:59:52 Right. Like clearly our Lord wants to restore us, not just our woundedness, our physical wound. woundedness and now. Yes. Yeah. It just go, and if you want to call that psychological or therapeutic culture, then you go, well, wholeness, shalom, healing. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:00:14 Not just of an individual heart, but a marriage. Not just a marriage, a family. Not just a family. A neighborhood. Not just a neighborhood, but a country. So when we begin to believe that our marriages are in some sense the framework for, a restoration process, then I want to be part of that. And I believe that this process, I remember this was maybe less than a year ago,

Starting point is 02:00:45 where Becky and I walk about 45 minutes every morning. It's where we begin the day, where we pray together, where we begin to ask Jesus to restore us. I just want to quickly tell everybody who's watching to go and watch that episode with you and Becky and John and Stacey Eldridge on the podcast Wild at Heart. Because I'm sure a lot of people are like, I want to get to know this awesome woman. And that was such a just a small window into your beautiful marriage. Yes.

Starting point is 02:01:12 Yeah. So continue. Yeah. We'll put a link to that below. Yeah. So we're on this walk. And something came up about, Becky said something like, you think you're going to pass before me. Well, if you look at actuarial tables, there's a pretty good substantial base to say, I'm going to dive.

Starting point is 02:01:30 for her. And she said, if someone were breaking into our home, you would put your body before me to keep me safe, wouldn't you? You would be willing to die on my behalf. And I'm like, absolutely. And she said, let me ask you this question. Are you praying that you can see me home. As soon as she said that, I'm like, no, I am not. Because the thought of living a single day on this earth without my wife, I don't know how I would ever do so. But when she asked, would you be willing to pray so that you can see me home? And I'm like, I would die for you, but I don't know if I can live this life without you. It's changed. a lot of my prayer life to begin to ask, can I have the privilege of seeing my wife home

Starting point is 02:02:42 so that I get to help her make that transition to eternity and then live with the consequences? It was one of those interactions where I can tell you almost within 10 feet the space that felt like I am being asked to do something that feels like a level of sacrifice. I don't know if I have the maturity or the capacity to do. But I had been praying that I outlive my wife so that I can see her home. That's beautiful. If it doesn't occur, that's not my choice. That's not my, but that's the framework of being able to go of all your marriages is just the convenience of enough care to somehow get you through a day, a week, a month, a year. It is meant to be so. so transformative.

Starting point is 02:03:38 Were those interactions that disrupt, in one sense, our trauma history disrupt the ways that we have gone about living our lives, then it becomes some very different, shall we say, design. And that is, I'm not trying to change her. She's not trying to change me. But we're calling one another into a goodness that I would never have known without her. What have you learned as a trauma? First of all, okay, I've got so many questions. Here's one. I've heard that trauma lives in the body, and I don't know what that means.

Starting point is 02:04:15 Is it true? And if it is, what does it mean? All right. Well, let's start with this. Your vagal nerve, which runs from your occipital lobe, down through your brain, down through your viscera, through your throat, down into your stomach, and then below. it's the super highway of all your affect, all your emotions. It's what brings us to a kind of disconnection to feeling certain things that feel too disruptive.

Starting point is 02:04:44 And so it's a great gift at times because if I'm being chased by a tiger, I don't think I want to actually feel. I need to move. So our fight-flight response, the normal response to a high degree of threat, fight or flight. We wouldn't be alive today if we didn't have the ability to, in one sense, numb to some degree what we feel. Here's the dilemma. If you've been in a context where you've

Starting point is 02:05:13 been humiliated and you have learned the only way to survive with this parent or in this context is to numb so that you don't feel this sense of threat. Do you think neurologically that goes away as a consequence of coming to Christ, of having a good marriage. No, those are the context where we get to do what's called neuroplasticity, meaning our brains can actually change. That's so cool.

Starting point is 02:05:43 It is cool. It's so cool. But here's what we have learned through research. We need to engage the stories that have shaped our neurological foundation. So why do we step back into stories of past harm? Not to ruminate, self-absorbed, to find justification for who we are, what we do, to learn how to grieve and to learn how to be angry in a way in which we're grieving where you've got the promise. Blessed are those who grieve, for they will be comforted.

Starting point is 02:06:27 One of the core beatitudes. So when I ask men, particularly, but it's also true of women, when's the last time you wept with regard to your own hearts past harm? Harm you've done, harm that's been done to you. For most people, it's like, that's done, it's gone, it's past, versus being able to say, then what does God do with regard to the harm? He's not bound by time. So this event may have happened 20, 30, 40 years ago. What's the time for God? He lives in the eternal now.

Starting point is 02:07:03 So when you were abused 20, 30 years ago, what time is it for God? It is now. So will you enter the grief of God on your own behalf? And will you let your own tears join and merge with God's tears so that you know his heart for you and his comfort? So doing this work, marriage, therapy, or wherever you're engaging truth, it is meant to give us more grief, but also more of a stance of standing against injustice and saying, hell no. So anger is a gift that moves you into an engagement with all that is contrary to goodness. Are you going in your marriage growing in grief? In your marriage, are you growing in anger?

Starting point is 02:07:55 Not against one another, but with and for one another. And if the answer is no, then there's something missing in the interplay of your own marriage in terms of you becoming more like Jesus. So that's why I keep coming back to, why are we knocking on the door of your past? It's the Faulkner's brilliant phrase. The past has never dead. It's not even the past. Why? Because neurologically, the past has shaped your brain.

Starting point is 02:08:29 It's shaped how you're engaging life. It's how you engage yourself and others. So the neurological change is what I think Paul's talking about when he says you're transformed by the renewing of your noose. Greek word for mind, left and right hemisphere also. Can trauma lead to illness? In every way. How does that happen? Well, okay, most illnesses are due to inflammation.

Starting point is 02:09:04 So when you're under stress, your body produces inflammation. That's the effect of stress biochemicals. How do you dissipate those stress biochemicals? For most of us, we work harder. We drink. Yeah. We eat more. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:09:25 We get busy. It seems to work to minimize some of the stress biochemicals. But we challenge stress by creating new stress that we feel some degree of control over. Okay. And therefore, we feel more a sense of metabolization. But actually, we're just escaping. Wow. That's really deep.

Starting point is 02:09:45 We seek to heal our stress. by creating stress, which gives us a sense of control? Yeah. Isn't that deadly? Yeah, it's like vicious. It's a circular thing, eh? It is exactly that. It's the vicious cycle.

Starting point is 02:09:58 So the things you've been doing that you thought you could get away with in your 20s, 30s, now you have kids. And now you're working harder to establish your life and your career. And it's working, and you're doing better. How are you doing? Well, you're drinking more. You're sneaking some looks on pornography. You're hanging out with your friends. You're playing golf.

Starting point is 02:10:18 and you're doing okay, you're fine, you're good. But how are you caring for, caring for, truly caring for, your own stress and heartache? Is it the kindness of God that leads to repentance? No, you've found a way. You have managed your life. You have, in your own form of idolatry, you've found a way to control the world. I read a lot. I love books.

Starting point is 02:10:49 I'm a teacher, I'm a professor. And so thinking about thoughts, reading, I mean, it is a world of magic. I love reading people I don't understand. I love French existentialism because I don't understand a word of what they're saying. I love Heidegger. I don't understand a word of what he said. I don't understand much of anything, but I love the intrigue of entering into that world. It becomes my God.

Starting point is 02:11:17 I remember one time Becky looking at me saying, I need you, I need you, please don't escape to your books. She could have said just as simply, don't escape to your idolatry. Be with me. Well, those are the kind of moments where you begin to realize I am fundamentally, do I believe in God? Yes. Do I believe in God? No. then you have that phrase, I believe, help my unbelief.

Starting point is 02:11:52 So am I a believer? I believe I am. Am I an unbeliever? I am. Aren't you? Yeah. So anyone who can say, I believe without any doubts, any core questions, all I can say is, when did you give in to dogmatism with a certainty level that indeed faith never allows you?

Starting point is 02:12:12 That's not belief. that's control. So when we begin to address the reality that all forms of vulnerability is a loss of control, particularly that whole notion of, and they were naked, and they felt no shame. So much of our marriage is an engagement with shame. But how many people, good friends, have marriages that actually have the goal and the commitment and the intentionality to disrupt one another shame because we believe the goodness of God will actually lead to life. I got to share a beautiful, I want to share how beautiful my wife is because she just did this for me like two.

Starting point is 02:12:56 You did this to me yesterday. And this is my text messages. My phone's off, so I'm going to share this with you. I hope it's not too. Well, no, I don't. I don't think that at all. So I just interviewed Russell Brand recently and Cameron watched it. and I said, how did I do?

Starting point is 02:13:15 And she said, loving it. Amazing. You helped him be relaxed and easy, wonderful chat. But I must have said in the interview, you're very good with words. I'm terrible with words. She wrote to me and said, this is her exact. You are very good at speaking, exclamation mark, exclamation mark, exclamation mark. Don't own that bullshit.

Starting point is 02:13:38 And so when I was on the phone with her. How'd you enjoy it? She's like, I enjoyed. I didn't enjoy that bit. And she just, how beautiful is my wife? Isn't that beautiful? Yes. Is that kind of what you mean?

Starting point is 02:13:49 Yes. Yes. I love her. I freaking love her. I remember maybe our 17th anniversary. Maybe. Lay in bed next to her and I was just looking at her. And I was like, who are you?

Starting point is 02:14:06 I don't. Who is this woman I've had coffee with every day? I haven't even seen. I'm so sorry I haven't seen you. Yes, that's confession. But do you hear the phrase, it's coming home? It's coming home. And if in that moment, I could have appeared, it's a terrible thought. In my bedroom, you jump in. Okay, go. That's Dan. Don't worry about it, Camry. What's up, Daniel? And at that moment, if I could say, and do you hear the heavens, celebrating you've come home. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:14:45 I think that is a rare moment. Yeah, it is. And that's where it's actually happening thousands of times a week. You're coming home, but you're not naming it. You're naming the heroism of your own cowardice and being able to admit it. There's the topsy-turvy work of the gospel. Like in those moments of vulnerability that I feel so fragile and out of control, are some of the most heroic moments where my wife admires me because I told the truth.

Starting point is 02:15:18 Okay. And I received her kindness. Now, I speak well of her, but I'll also say she can be controlling, she can be demanding, she can be petty. The reality is she's not glorified. And so if she were here talking about her own failures of love, they are a plan. So it's this interplay, again, of we have ground that we've been given. It's not just a house and on a particular sect of land. It's actually, we've been given the kingdom of God.

Starting point is 02:15:54 And our kingdom is meant to grow. And we can only grow it by engagement with one another. And whatever movement we're making with one another, it's not just for us. It's for our children. Not just for our children, our grandchildren, and for our neighbors, etc. We get to live before others as broken people who knows something of the beauty of what it means to be called to become like Jesus. And that's evangelism. That's discipleship.

Starting point is 02:16:23 That's the conversation. So when we're with friends, and they ask, like, we haven't seen them for a while. I won't say they're some of our best friends, but good friends. And they say, how are you doing? and we go do you want the 250 tour $5 or do you want the

Starting point is 02:16:44 VIP tour like what do you want as you ask what do you want Yeah that's good And they say 250 We're good with the 250

Starting point is 02:16:54 And I'm like Thank you for your honesty Here we are We're doing well We're doing well Well that's great to hear It's like the friend Who goes

Starting point is 02:17:02 You pass in the hallway How you do it? Good Hey, how are you? I'm well. It is actually honorable interaction. Yes, of course it is. Because we don't want more. Right. But those who want more, it's like, well, my wife has coming to realize that she uses cleaning in our home as her primary way of dealing with the comfort. How beautiful. She's coming to realize that. Yeah. How old is your wife? She's slightly older. I want to say. We won't say. But she's 74. She's a beautiful woman. Beautiful 74-year-old woman. Thank you.

Starting point is 02:17:35 Um, isn't that wild? Is it not depressing to be, are you 72? I am five months younger. So I, when she turns 74, I start saying I'm 74. So I get five months to practice saying that age, technically 73. Is it ever depressing to realize I'm bloody 73 and I'm trying to control this by cleaning or whatever your thing is? No? Um, like, am I still doing this healing thing?

Starting point is 02:18:03 This is, does it not ever feel exhausting? Again, I would be dishonest to say it's never. But what I would say is we have grown well enough over the last number of decades. With another colleague, we wrote a book called Deep Rooted Marriage. And in that, Becky writes sections and the other Lisa writes other sections of what Steve wrote. And in the process of writing, of course, what you're eventually asking of one another, Are we telling the truth? We don't have to tell the whole truth.

Starting point is 02:18:37 Right. But are we telling enough of the truth to be in that position, to be able to say, we see goodness growing? And when that's the case, then let's just say the goodness exceeds the cost of the suffering. There you go. Well, and I see that in you, right? Like, you are a, I want to be like you when I grow up. I want to be like John Eldridge. I want to be like Christopher West.

Starting point is 02:19:03 I want to be like, and he's slightly younger, right? But I want to be like these men because I see them and there's like there's a fullness and there's a joy and there's a richness, right? The world is filled with two-dimensional people who have checked out. Yep. Who are like, that therapy stuff's bullshit. Yeah. Or, okay. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:19:23 Reels, reals, reals. Yeah, I don't want to do it. I don't want to be like that. But that's going to require the cross, huh? It does. It requires dying to. self. But the dying to self as much suffering is the context for all the goodness, the glory, the play, the honor, the delight. And you go, wait a minute. You mean I might have to walk an

Starting point is 02:19:50 extra mile to get a meal that may be the best of my life? Oh my God. I think I will say, I won't name any particular fast food institution, but just to say, fast food or utter glory of a banquet? Come on. I love good food. I love good cigars. Why would I settle? Why would I settle? Even though the cost is that sense of upheaval. The Greek word for that is the Arsplagna. The ancients thought our stomach was actually where a lot of our choices and so and so forth. Guess what we've learned. it is our second brain, our stomach, our guts, our splagna. And so when we begin to go, wait a minute, wait a minute, there's such wisdom in Scripture. Like, what a thought.

Starting point is 02:20:43 Yet, to be able to go, when we begin to be willing to, in one sense, suffer. Like, I work with a lot of men who are well-to-do, and they play golf, and they will spend thousands, tens of thousands of dollars, playing great courses, getting lessons. And the question I often ask is, like, do you put the same amount of time, thought, and exercise, practice in engaging the one person who will most determine what your eternity will be, the quality of your marriage? And it's like a stunned look like, what? Like, the defensiveness to that is, but golf gives me so much joy. And your wife doesn't. Well, she nags or she's not happy with me.

Starting point is 02:21:33 And it's like, okay, I can't deal with her. You're the one here. You got the log in your own eye. Can we begin to deal? Not with her spec, but with your log. And that process of dealing with, if you've ever had something impaling your eye, you know it's just agony to get that out. So I don't want to minimize. There's a huge cost.

Starting point is 02:21:53 But it's a cost with a gain that when you begin to understand, not just for the life ahead, but for the life now, how is it possible you could let your life be inured by pointless distractions when there is so much life in God? Suppose someone's watching right now and they think, that all sounds great and that advice would have helped me 10 years ago, but my marriage has been dead forever. So people who are watching who are in despair and they're like, well, good for you, really happy that you've got a good marriage, congratulations. That kind of reaction, right?

Starting point is 02:22:28 What is that reaction? It's almost like a resentment. Oh, I agree. I agree. It's envy. It's envy. It's envy. But the response is, when did you come to hate the resurrection?

Starting point is 02:22:40 When did you come to say, I will not let my body suffer hope? When did you come to say hope may kill me? And if it kills me, it is worth dying. I am willing to risk by dealing with what's true in my own life. And therefore, maybe my marriage will. will end. And in fact, maybe it should end, given the fact it is so dead. But what would be the cost for you to believe that the resurrection could capture your heart enough to begin to say to your spouse, for the last 48 years, I have failed you. And whatever years I have left,

Starting point is 02:23:20 and whatever years you would be willing to engage me, I want to grow in a humility that I have never had with you. And I can only confess that I'm a narcissist and I have a self-absorption and a commitment to power and a hatred of any form of vulnerability. And even what I'm saying now is tainted with that narcissism. Yes. Yes. I can't be pure.

Starting point is 02:23:45 I don't even know if I mean what I'm saying. I can't be pure in my confession. But I can at least confess and to say whatever days I have left on this earth, I will spend them in a direction toward making something of what our marriage could have been 40, 50 years ago. See, that's really beautiful, right? Because I love that it's directed towards the person who wants to make their marriage better. Because the problem has probably been up until now that I'm blaming the other person. Absolutely. If she could just change, you have no idea what I have to deal with. She gave me the fruit. Yeah. Yeah. And God could have been so much better to me.

Starting point is 02:24:20 Yeah. The woman you made, she gave me the fruit. And if you want to say that I'm responsible, I did eat the fruit. Again, if we can disrupt that, enough to be able to say this archetypal story is meant to cast you into the reality of you are Adam. Now, do you actually believe there's a God who delights in you and want so much goodness for you? Come to the party. repentance is not merely grieving harm. It's actually having the desire to eat and drink and smoke and dance and sing well. Thank you.

Starting point is 02:25:07 Can we talk about sexual trauma and shame and addiction? Because I mean, I imagine this is a lot of what you deal with. I do. I don't know where to start there, but what are we? Maybe sexual abuse. or sexual addiction? Is that the right way to phrase it? Yeah, it is.

Starting point is 02:25:27 I don't, and have never worked with anyone struggling with sexual addiction that has not had some history of sexual violation. I don't want to excuse by any means. We sin. We fail. We break not only God's law, but one another's hearts. But usually there's a context. The context is not an excuse.

Starting point is 02:25:48 The context is an understanding. of what is, in some sense, driving me. You have Chesterton's brilliant phrase. Every man who knocks on the door of a brothel is looking for God. So it doesn't excuse, but it opens the door to that question of, what are you finding in a sexual moment that actually is a spiritual issue, a psychological, a relational issue that you have not tended to? So you don't break addiction by mere control.

Starting point is 02:26:22 That's the absolute opposite. If you know anything about the 12 steps, you begin with the first step. Owning your desperation. And every addict I've ever had the privilege of working with has come to something of that moment of desperation of being able to say, I am dying and I'm near death. It's at that moment. For me, 19-20-year-old man walking on the street,

Starting point is 02:26:48 having to face, I could be dead any moment in a drive-by shooting. So there's something of the gift of death that has to be engaged and something of the uncertainty of what it will be like to be in the presence of God. So all that stirs us, at least at the beginning to go, how did the harm I suffered? So when we talk about sexual abuse, I think of it in these categories, someone groomed you. So how were you, I'm not asking, it's a rhetoric, how were you introduced to pornography? because almost every introduction to pornography came from somebody else. You didn't find a magazine on the highway.

Starting point is 02:27:27 Yeah, some people do, about one in a million. But you got invited up into a tree house by two older boys, and you wanted to join the club. So they invited you up, and then they show you these magazines. Why? Because they want to see you aroused. So you're up in the treehouse, You're looking at magazines, and one of the boys says, you know, if you touch yourself in this way, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Starting point is 02:27:56 Well, most of the men that I've worked with have never addressed that moment was a form of sexual abuse. You got groomed, you got set up, you got drawn into a relationship where to look at that person and to say, I'm not going to look at that magazine. I'm not going to touch myself in that way. I'm getting out of the tree house. Are you really believing that an eight-year-old, nine-year-old boy has the fortitude and clarity when many adults don't, to be able to say no to that? We are people who long to belong.

Starting point is 02:28:34 We were made to be in community, and so often community set you up in a context for a relationship where the groomer, the adult, the older child, the next door neighbor. So when we look at abuse, about 26% is perpetrated in the home, what we call interfamilial or incest. About 66% of abuse is perpetrated by people who live in the neighborhood or somebody you know, but is not part of your family. That leaves only about 8% of abuse perpetrated by a total stranger. Well, how do they get you into that situation? They groomed you and they brought you into a relationship. And usually most people who groom are working eventually to bring you to a point where they touch you and eventually you're required to touch them.

Starting point is 02:29:29 Here's the dilemma for those who have been abused. When your body is touched, your body, even if you're... terrified. Yes. Even if you hate what's happening, your body, many of my clients have said this phrase, my body betrayed me. And what they mean by that is, I felt some level, even if it's 1% of arousal. So you cannot be touched clitorily. You cannot be touched penilely without your body having some degree of arousal, even if you're terrified. So what do you do as an eight-year-old? 12 year old, 16 year old, frankly, a 45-year-old, with your body being touched in a way in which you feel arousal, do you see where shame comes? Yeah.

Starting point is 02:30:20 There's something dark, wicked, stupid. I must have somehow wanted it. Yes. Yeah. So being told, it's not your fault. It's not your fault. It's a beautiful sentence, but it deals with a problem at about 30,000 feet. It helps for the instant, but it doesn't deal with the shame.

Starting point is 02:30:38 You've got to be able to step into the story and where the shame resides. And the shame resides in some sense, in those particular moments where your body felt some degree of arousal. So the good work of a good therapist is stepping into the stories, not intrusively, not demanding that a person just tell the story, but your body allowing you to tell the story and being. present, being in your body as that eight-year-old boy. Because you have an eight-year-old neurological set in your brain. So if we can engage that eight-year-old who hates his body because he stayed in the treehouse and watched older boys masturbate and then let one of them touch him and then bore a sense of again, that judgment, that contempt against himself. Now, does that go away?

Starting point is 02:31:46 It doesn't until you begin the process of dismantling something of that shame, power, in your own heart and body at that moment. Is there healing, oh, profound? The Spirit of God has the ability to bring a sense of grief and anger in a way that brings comfort, but also that appropriate sense of anger against the one who did you harm. So, again, I'm truncating a long process, but the reality is that showed up in that moment when my wife is inviting me to make love to her, and I'd be a fool. How did I feel when a scoutmaster abused me like a fool? How did I feel when older boys in a locker room abused me like a fool?

Starting point is 02:32:40 Didn't I know better? Didn't I have a better sense of what indeed was going to happen? If I were smarter, if I were more clear about the nature of the world, I would never have allowed myself to be brought into this bind of wanting a relationship. and then being used. So that's the disruptive work. A good marriage begins to engage. It doesn't resolve it by putting it away.

Starting point is 02:33:10 It actually creates the context. My wife as well, she has spoken this publicly, has a history of her own past abuse. So for both of us as abused boys and girls, as husband and wife, a good labor of God has. been to help us, even as 70-year-olds, come to enjoy our bodies, not just in sex, but in holding hands, not just in a kind of intimacy, but in the capacity for a vulnerability to grow. What was once hated has now the capacity to actually be held in a way in which we are one another's allies in redemption.

Starting point is 02:33:55 Mm-hmm. Beautiful. You know, I think I was listening to a audiobook by Russell Brand recently on recovery. And he was saying that in a way, those of us, he said, who were alcoholics and heroin addicts and like, we have it easier. Because I think his point was there was something more obvious to identify. Yes. So do you encounter that where people like, yeah, okay, but I was never, I don't know how to relate to you now, right? Someone might say, because I wasn't abused in a tree house or in a locker room. and yet I find myself with this compulsive behavior or something. So, like, how am I to find the threads of that when it's... Totally important. Look, the more subtle, the more satanic. Really?

Starting point is 02:34:36 I mean, I totally agree with what he said in that. I get to work with a lot of what I'll call good, salt of the earth Christians, who would say just what you said. You know, I had a good family. I was never harmed, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And a part of me wants to go, well, is your family open to adoption? Like, I'd be glad to become part of your family. But let me ask a couple questions.

Starting point is 02:35:10 Do you believe in sin? And do you believe your parents were sinners? And do you actually think sin is an issue of lost and anger, adultery, and murder? So if you do, then no matter how good a parent, your sin is going to affect your children. I remember my oldest son, or my son, when he was about 19 years of age, he was in college. He came to me, and at one point he said that I'm not going back to college. And I said, you're in your sophomore year. It's the hardest year.

Starting point is 02:35:46 Yes, you're going back. And he said, I am not going back. I've made decisions, and I have a future ahead, and I'm not going to college. And I said, the first sentence was, well, you're not going to have my financial support. And he looked at me and he said, I actually wrote a letter to you. And in that letter was my expectation as to one of the first things you would tell me. And it's just what you said. You use money as a means of threatening me.

Starting point is 02:36:23 to keep me in conformity with what you think is good and true. And then he said these words, Dad, education for you has always been a form of your idolatry. And I don't bow before the gods of education the way you do. I could have killed him. But I also knew he was telling the truth. So when you begin to look at so many of the core, convictions you have about life and your children begin to expose them.

Starting point is 02:36:59 Well, can we at least admit my son had enough courage, but he also had some freedom that we have allotted all our children to tell the truth. As much as I was deeply distressed, I can also say somewhere in me, I felt proud of him. And my son, I mean, I have a doctor, I have a daughter who, who has her doctorate, I have a daughter who's an acupuncturist and a therapist. And my son, I say with pride,

Starting point is 02:37:36 is a steel worker. He's a welder. He has chosen a path so very different. So my children have had the freedom to be able to name my idolatry and where the interplay lust and anger has showed itself. And let me just say,

Starting point is 02:37:53 it's not been fun, not been easy. We have had disruptions as a family in all that process. But in that process, I've learned to weld. I've learned about welding. And there's a sense in which my son has taught me as much about God as I have ever offered him. That's why disruption is so key to this whole process of, will you let the Spirit of God disrupt your life enough to be brought back to truth and back to the ultimate things that God wants on your behalf?

Starting point is 02:38:36 You talk a lot about stories and getting to know our own story, and I know we've already touched upon it, but could we take another swing in it? Absolutely. Yeah. How so? All right. Why is it important? How do I begin to do it?

Starting point is 02:38:52 Why should I even be bothered? Will it yield the fruits that you're telling me it will yield? That's a great question again. What do you do with the fact that 70% of the Bible story? Yeah. This is why we like the proverbs instead. Just give it to me in bullet points. Yeah. Well, and again, my best friend that I met at 13 is an Old Testament scholar, Tremper Longman III. and his primary area of expertise is wisdom literature. And what he would say is a lot of the proverbs are borrowed from the secular culture around. So wisdom literature often borrows from Mesopotamia, Babylonia, et cetera, et cetera. And so in that sense, there's a story even in a proverb.

Starting point is 02:39:45 Where do that proverb come from? And how did it come to be in that particular section? So, you know, even when you're thinking about a particular verse, you can't escape the reality of the whole Bible is a story within a story, actually 66 stories within a story. And in that moment. 72, depending on whose side you're on. But continue. Yes, thank you. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:40:08 Thank you. That was kind. Yeah. That was really well done. Yes. But yeah, sure, stories. Yes, it's a book full of stories. Yes.

Starting point is 02:40:18 So if we say God loves story. And what people will say to me, well, I love God's story, but I don't want to have to deal with my story. And I'll make, well, what are the two core stories that the scriptures are so centered on that it virtually comes up everywhere with regard to the Hebrew Bible and with regard to the New Testament? Yeah. The Exodus, death, resurrection, ascension. Okay. Well, those are stories. You don't know them as facts merely.

Starting point is 02:40:52 You know them within a narrative setting. So the only reason I want you to engage your story is because God loves story. And you need to address your own Exodus. And when we remember God, and there is no command in Scripture more than remember the Lord your God or the corollary, don't forget the Lord your God. when people say, well, I remember God, I don't need to remember my own story. God's always bound his core stories to the stories of his people. So we're meant to engage the Exodus through our own experience of Exodus.

Starting point is 02:41:33 We are meant to engage the death and resurrection and ascension of Jesus through the story of our own suffering, through the story of our own rescue, through the story of our empowerment because of the ascension. So the bottom line is if you don't engage story, you don't engage reality. And if you don't want to be in reality, keep messing with reels, which happen to be short stories. Very short stories. So if you are drawn to TikTok, you know, I almost said TikTok, whatever, what is it? TikTok, Instagram Reels.

Starting point is 02:42:11 Yeah. You're drawn to. You're living your life. the midst of story. Yeah. You're drawn to story. You'll weep over stories, but you won't weep over your own. Mm.

Starting point is 02:42:24 You'll be enraged at this level of injustice you see on this particular film or show, but not for yourself. Can I be just vulnerable right now? I said 72 books and for the last 10 minutes realized it was 73 and I've been feeling like an idiot. Well, I wouldn't have known that. Yeah. Everyone else who's watching is telling us in the comment section.

Starting point is 02:42:47 But that's a real thing, though. I'm like, God, idiot. Why would you get that? All right. We're right back to content. Yeah. And we're right back to... And it was subtle, right?

Starting point is 02:42:55 It wasn't loud. It was just like this. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. That's the thing about living in reality, though, right? Like, to live on the periphery, you don't notice those bubbling. Right. It takes much less.

Starting point is 02:43:05 How many judgments? And then because people have the opportunity to write remarks, if you look at most of the remarks made on almost any show that I've ever seen, it's the critical, you're an idiot, how could you hold this, you don't really love God, you're the, it's like we are living in a culture of contempt and whatever your political views are, it would be hard to say that we're not living in a culture of disparagement, humdiscension, cruelty, diminishment. And that's the language of the one who assaults the human heart. So not only is he called Diabolos devil.

Starting point is 02:43:49 He's also called Satan, which at least the implication is satanee. It means the accuser. So right there, you felt the presence of your own accusation. Now, I'm not saying that was the devil doing that. What I'm saying is you joined the devil. You joined the accuser and making an accusation. versus going, oh, my, wait a minute, I said 72, it's 73.

Starting point is 02:44:17 Yeah. And you Protestant think it's 66. And I'm like, oh, gosh, thank you so much for letting me be on this show. What do you mean? Well, you know, there's a difference in terms of what we understand to be the corpus of scripture. Yeah, it would seem insane, though, to think that because I think I'm right, writer than you in certain theological aspects that I can't learn from you and vice versa. Wouldn't that be weird? Well, it would be, quote, unquote, culturally normal.

Starting point is 02:44:47 Yeah. Yeah, and you know, it's funny is we will get those comments, right? People who are like, why would you have? And we say it, and we have no reflection. There's no reflection that, like, just walk around with these giant logs in our eyes. Yeah. And I think of some of the people who have shaped my theological perspective most deeply come within what I would call deep Roman Catholic historical theological frame.

Starting point is 02:45:22 Yeah, but you won't make friends with those who are ready to call your names anyway. So they're like, yeah, that just gives me more reason. My friend Trent Horn says it's like the internet, where the internet flourishes is where the seven deadly sins can be engaged, right? Lust, anger, envy, hatred, agreed. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's just, that's what flourishes.

Starting point is 02:45:44 He said to me, this is why there are no fast food vegetable places. You know, it's like it's the, it's the, yeah. Yeah, it's appealing to them to the loud, bent places in us. Right. So when Becky at one point some time ago said, why can't you ring out the dish rack? I had just spent, I don't. know, 30, 40 minutes, cleaning the kitchen up, doing the dishes, cleaning it up. And I'm actually feeling...

Starting point is 02:46:21 Good. You're welcome, Becky. Like, that kind of thing? Yeah. Yeah. Like, sacrificial. Yeah. Honoring.

Starting point is 02:46:29 I love you. And now the critique comes. The dish rack has not been wrung out. And I'm like, are you kidding? Are you serious? This would be what you would. want to remark on? Nothing else first?

Starting point is 02:46:50 And then what she said at some point was, I honor all that you have given. But is it asking more for you to be aware that when you get distracted, everything changes? And I do have what generally is called, hyper-focus ADD. So when I'm on, I'm on.

Starting point is 02:47:20 But when I'm not on, I'm off. And she said, toward the end of when you were about to complete, you started thinking about something else. And I'm like, I guess it's good to be known. Yeah, I started thinking about a project that I was doing. And all of a sudden, the cleaning changed. And she said, I don't really care about the dish rack. It's why won't you stay present in doing what you were doing with such kindness and honor?

Starting point is 02:47:50 And yet why won't you stay till the very end? And she said, it's also when we're ending an evening with friends, because you feel a certain degree of grief whenever we end anything. You leave before we leave. I can see it in your eyes. How beautiful is your wife that she would know that about you, huh? Well, nearly 50 years. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:48:12 But yeah. I leave before every party, but I don't think it might be that. We don't like endings. I don't like endings. I also don't like people at my house at 10 at night being loud. I want to go to bed. Well, but you have the freedom as I do as well. My wife loves to have people.

Starting point is 02:48:29 And there have been many times where I've said, I love it too. Don't get me wrong. Where I've said to a couple or whatever. Stay as long as you would. I say that all the time. Right. In fact. Stay till 2 in the morning.

Starting point is 02:48:41 Here's all of my whiskey. I need to go to bed. Right. I'm going to bed. Yeah. And again, if they're good friends, they often stay. Yeah. You poke your head out the window.

Starting point is 02:48:51 I was just joking. If you could please wrap this up. I'm not joking. I'm in my pajamas. What's one thing Becky has learned about herself being married to you? Because we've talked about what she's spotted in you that she has gently and beautifully, not called out. That's the wrong way to put it.

Starting point is 02:49:11 but like highlighted for your own sanctification. Yeah. And it might not be fair to call your beautiful wife out who's not here to do that. No, not at all. She would be honored. The reality is often in marriage, you've got somebody who's much, for like a better word, much obviously better. Yeah. And then you've got somebody who's less so.

Starting point is 02:49:33 Yeah. And so I'm the less so. Yeah. And that's not a self-deprecating thing, eh? That's like, no. That's just true. Yeah. And so.

Starting point is 02:49:41 her own failure of love often comes when she will compromise and not deal with what she's feeling or thinking. So she can over multiple interactions, endure something that's not meant to be endured. And then she gets to a point where, oh, you do not want to pass that line. because what has been stored has now come to be lit with one match. And the match feels so freaking insignificant like a dishrack. In this case, she was not furious.

Starting point is 02:50:28 But those moments for her to be able to say, I must be quicker to honor what my heart, body, mind, and soul is experiencing versus seeing myself because she is one of the kindest human beings I've ever met on this earth. She can allow her own kindness

Starting point is 02:50:48 to be beguiling to herself in a way in which she endures what should not be endured. And in some ways, that was the story of the phone call. That's the story of, well, countless stories. So I think she's getting quicker to a kind of anger

Starting point is 02:51:07 that actually honors not only her but me whereas in the past maybe she saw her as a sort of forbearance or offering it up or just but she wasn't doing that there's so many ways to spiritually bullshit yourself yeah

Starting point is 02:51:23 yeah I think I gotta get I know I gotta get better at seeing what my wife needs because she doesn't often know she's not walking around telling me what she needs and I'll offer to do things and do do things but it probably if I was a bit more attentive I could actually do the things it would actually help her.

Starting point is 02:51:41 Well, that's great, honorable. But it's also to be asking your wife the question, how is it that you don't seem to know yourself? Yeah, that's good. What is it about desire that terrifies you, that you're willing to serve and be kind and graciously engage others, but you don't seem to ask much of us?

Starting point is 02:52:02 Yeah, yeah. So the question of narrative, story, who are you? Like, we're almost 50 years into this process, and there are still stories that are coming. I remember about 17 years into our marriage. She told me a story of an event that happened in elementary school. It wasn't overwhelming. But it was a significant event where she was humiliated in the context of asking a question in a class. And she said, I think from that moment on, I never raised my hands.

Starting point is 02:52:37 in almost any class through grad school. And I remember looking at her going, that's a really important story. It's so helpful for me to understand how that came to be. And then, immaturely, what I said was, why didn't you tell me that before? And what she said was,

Starting point is 02:53:05 it took 17 years for me to trust you with that story. I think there are stories that she will tell me, God willing, if we make it to 60 years, where she'll be able to say something comparable to, it took me 60 years to tell you this story. Wow.

Starting point is 02:53:27 We look at each other like kitty pools, but we're oceans. Like two-dimensional things, right? That's a beautiful sentence. Yeah. It's just a beautiful sentence. If we actually believed I mean, the ocean is terrifying.

Starting point is 02:53:43 It is terrifying. It's also compelling. Yeah. Alluring. We want to be in it, but only up to a point. Yeah. Otherwise, it might be taken out by... Oh, there you go.

Starting point is 02:53:54 Way to press the analogy. That's good. Yeah. So, do I want to be known? Hmm. Up to a point. Theoretically, yes. And yes, practically.

Starting point is 02:54:09 I mean, experientially, yes, up to a point. You know, when you start talking the way we're talking, it really does help you look at people different when you realize that everybody else is an ocean as well. We categorize people. We make quick snap, oh, she's like that, he's like this. He looks like someone I know, therefore probably has the identical personality. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:54:32 Yeah. And I'm all for Myers-Briggs. I'm all for the enneagram. I'm all for temperaments. But the usefulness of categories, you're a Democrat, you're a socialist, is enough to be knocking on the door to say, what does it mean for you that you're a nine, aneogram nine? Because no nine is like any other nine. I see. So if I say, oh, I'm kind of melancholic choleric.

Starting point is 02:55:02 You're like, yeah. And so where do you find you? You're like everybody else? You're like every other melancholic choleric? Are you identical to them? Where does your grief come and where does it not? Where does your sense of quiet despair come and where does it not? So when we begin to look at the particularity, the situational structures, you know, there are certain settings where I go in and though I'm obviously quite wordy where I'm very quiet.

Starting point is 02:55:29 Well, that intrigues, Becky. Like, you're around person X and Y and you can't be your mouth shut. How come? I don't know. You know, the phrase, I don't know, has to be understood. What's the punctuation behind that? Exclamation point, don't ask anymore. Or more along the lines of, well, do you want to think about this?

Starting point is 02:55:56 No, I really don't. Hmm, why are you angry? I'm not angry. You're the one who brought it up. There's an intensity in your voice now that doesn't feel becoming and inviting. What? I'm perfect. You can hear my bluster. And she has, I think we both have, the ability to engage one another's defenses, our own way of distancing, undercutting, with a kind of commitment where we have at least formally said to one another, we do not want to be a marriage of contempt. I don't want you to have to live with contempt. I don't want to live with contempt. And yet we use it against one another often. But that core commitment of we do not want to be a marriage of contempt. So conflict is a creative context for being able to have a curiosity to be able to see something about this ocean.

Starting point is 02:56:55 The thing that's so frightening about it is the curiosity, to use the ocean analogy, quickly becomes, I'm over my head and I'm drowning and they might not be a way out. Yeah. You know, like if you get into a conflict with your spouse about something that you've been in conflict over for the last 20 years but have never. have never resolved. Yes. Then to have that surface, it just looks like a large, scary beast. It's what we call the DMC, the demilitarized zone, where most people make a commitment of, we love one another, we care for one another, but whenever we get into this topic or issue

Starting point is 02:57:30 or memory, it goes poorly. Yeah. And so we commit to not walking between North and South Korea. Yeah. So anybody walks there, both the North and South Korea. Koreans will kill you. Well, guess what? It's fertile ground for evil to plant seeds of division, dissension, and ultimately, even if it's not literal, of divorce.

Starting point is 02:57:55 So when you choose to not take ground, somebody else will. So how do you take ground, how do you have the courage to take ground then if every time you've walked on that zone, it's been a disaster? Well, you can understand why people are like, let's just. Oh, I do. I do. Again, this is why I love the work I get to do. Because at least if somebody's coming in, seeing me as a therapist, they're at least admitting things are not well. Yeah. Why can't we all admit at some level things are not well in all our marriages? Yeah.

Starting point is 02:58:29 Like I live with a sinner. She lives with a sinner. Do you think it was going to go well? Uh-huh. So the moment you're able to say, I need some. help. I need something. I believe help my unbelief. Then we've got ground to begin to say, all right, let's begin to explore why this seems to trigger you. And every one of us has certain triggers, often formed, again, neurologically, on the basis of threat. So when I feel threatened, I'm triggered, and therefore I have defensive structures. Fight or flight, freeze, fawn. Okay. That's common trauma language.

Starting point is 02:59:12 So rather than try and resolve it, which is what I think most people genuinely, and with good heart desire to do, we don't have enough curiosity to say, we need to deal with the roots. That's why we call the book Deep Root of Marriage. Can we deal with the roots of why we're being triggered

Starting point is 02:59:31 in this particular way that causes me to get forceful? And I think it was probably less than a year ago. Becky and I were talking on a long walk. And at one point, she goes, you're aroused when we are in a fight. You love intensifying, and you require me to intensify, which allows you to intensify, and then I intensify. And I don't understand why that brings you pleasure. Look, this was at least, what, 48 years into our marriage. And I'm like, well, damn, That's a really good question.

Starting point is 03:00:17 And she's like, well, what comes to mind? And I said, that's how I soothe my mother. I mean, I was stunned by my words. That's how I sued my mother. She said, what do you mean? Well, if mom and I could be screaming at one another, there would come a moment where she could let down and begin to cry. And then when she would weep, I would comfort.

Starting point is 03:01:00 But it would only come after this jagged, intense interaction. And she's like, it would have been so helpful. And it would have been so helpful to have known decades before. But again, it's back to, I believe in a redemption. I'd rather have it now than never. So for us to be able to go in a way that over the last, again, I don't even know, it's probably been a year, to be able to go, you're intensifying. And do you want to fight? Do you just want to fight?

Starting point is 03:01:42 Yes. And it's like, yes. Well, good. We can fight, but it's different because now it's not for you to be able to return to a kind of false. soothing. So if you need a fight, you have dear friends who know how to fight with you. I don't want to fight with you. I'm like, I'm losing my playmate. Yes, indeed. This is not what is most honorable. So naming, again, what we have is the word confession. And in Greek, the word confession is homo la gao. Say the same thing. So when we confess to God, we're just saying what he knows. I was aroused by anger because part of the structure of how I survived in my home Of course it's playing out now in my marriage

Starting point is 03:02:30 I'm sad it took that long But now her ability to name that narratively Not only in terms of our narrative But my own past story Now gives us ground to deal with the trigger Far more effectively DMZs is where evil plant seeds of discord.

Starting point is 03:02:55 And if you think that by escaping difficult topics, because you've not dealt with it well, is going to keep being good, then you don't believe that there is a kingdom of evil working against you. Okay, I want to ask about that. Kingdom of evil working against us. It reminds you had John Eldridge

Starting point is 03:03:18 was saying that one of the first fights he got into with Stacey, he just, she felt, I don't remember exactly, but she felt accused, he felt accused, and he sort of realized, there's someone else in the room here. So what can we learn as married couples when it comes to spiritual warfare and how we can take it seriously?

Starting point is 03:03:40 I have a lot of conversations with people who really do believe the Bible, but actually are formed more out of the last 500 years of Enlightenment. And that is, they actually are functional materialists. So they think the conflict is just between us. And frankly, as you put it earlier, primarily is your issue. If you just change, we'd be fine.

Starting point is 03:04:06 So when you begin to go, wait a minute. Man, I am so embarrassed to say that I have unironically thought that multiple times in my marriage. No, this is your thing. It's not me. if you would just change, this would be fun. Wow. Well, yes. What do we say?

Starting point is 03:04:29 Yes. And again, the implication that I've resolved these issues, and I'm somehow beyond that, I'm still there. But I think we repair quicker. We re-center quicker than we might have five years ago, 10 years ago. Yeah. So the framing has to be heard in this. If you believe that there is a kingdom of evil, working through Satan and its minions to ruin the glory of God, evil cannot, as a finite being, ruin the glory of God. because God's infinite

Starting point is 03:05:21 but it can come after that or whom most reveals God's glory so as great incomprehensibly great as the archangel Michael Gabriel

Starting point is 03:05:38 they're not made in the image of God you and I are okay therefore evil's intent is to ruin the glory of God, and that which most reveals the glory of God. I personally think a baked potato reveals the glory of God, but not like...

Starting point is 03:06:03 Becky. Or... Your worst enemy, you know. The ocean. Or Mount Hood. So there are different dimensions of glory. You and I, we made in the image of God, reveal God's glory in a way that no other creature does. Why do you say that angels aren't made in the image and lightness of God?

Starting point is 03:06:22 I would think they were. I don't see any passage in scripture. I don't, I may be totally wrong. Yeah, I don't know if there needs to be a passage. What do you think it means to be made in the image and lightness of God? I have no clue. Good. I just know that it's like a, well, in the ancient Near East,

Starting point is 03:06:44 kings would create, in one sense, images of themselves as, representatives of their glory. So when we talk about the image, it means that we are somehow revelatory in a way that other creatures do, but not in the same way. How that plays out, I don't know beyond to say, it holds me to a glory that only creates more grief for my own failure to be within that glory. And yet also comforts me that that glory is not ruined by my or other person's sin. So if that's framework, then at least to say, evil is working to accuse and scatter.

Starting point is 03:07:35 Devil, Satan. Those names give me something of the clue of what is working. So when we're divided and we can't be together in a way that honors, even if we differ, even if a thousand ways we differ with one another, If we can't honor and delight in one another, then its commitment to scatter has occurred. When you're divided in yourself, when you're divided between others, and ultimately with God, evil has to some degree one. So it's always working to divide. It's always working to accuse. If only those two were the frameworks, then to be able to say, I don't know what else it's doing.

Starting point is 03:08:18 Gosh, isn't it amazing because God is a union of persons who calls us into holy communion so that we can be in the communion of the saints? Communion, isolation, scatters, yeah. Yes, wow. Well, look at what trauma does. It scatters and divides. It's called fragmentation. It numbs, therefore takes away our capacity to feel grief and anger for ourselves and for others.

Starting point is 03:08:46 ultimately it isolates. So trauma is evil's favorite work. Personally, I think sexual abuse is one of its great violations that accomplishes some of its ultimate purposes. So it's one of the reasons why, when you were saying a while back, you know, for those people who have not had any sexual violation, I want to go, what world have you lived in? Yeah, we're at least significant.

Starting point is 03:09:14 What world? Yeah. I mean, did you go to college? Were you part of a fraternity? Did you date? So even what we refer to as sexual sin is a form of violation of yourself and others. Yeah. So if you say you've never had any sexual violation, I really want to say then you were in a tomb wrapped in an esophagus.

Starting point is 03:09:41 Yeah. And you haven't lived a day of this world. So, again, I get that there are variations, extremity, et cetera, but abuse is abuse. Harm is harm. Yeah. And it's going to show up neurologically. It's going to show up in the way we relate to one another. So all that then comes back to this simple phrase.

Starting point is 03:10:00 If I don't take into account its purposes, its schemes, what are the schemes of evil? Then I'm going to be naive that some of the fights, some of the conflicts actually are being energized. Yeah, there you go. Actually being fueled by one who's standing outside and in one sense blowing on the flames. So there are times where Becky and I need to stop and go, this is between us, but we've got somebody else in the room. Oh, for sure. For sure. And in my experience, whenever I'm most offended by that suggestion, it's more likely to be the case.

Starting point is 03:10:41 How dare you? This is not about that. This is what you did. Hey, we need to begin to wrap up. I don't want to, but they're telling me to. So I have a question. Everyone, obviously, I including myself, I want to get your book. Deep-rooted marriage.

Starting point is 03:10:55 Could you tell us about that? What do you want to know? Well, where to get it, why I should get it? Well, it's about marriage. It's a lot about what we've been talking about. Okay. And, you know, you can call Jeff Bezos, and he will personally deliver the book to your door. Yeah.

Starting point is 03:11:13 Okay. But you need to contact Amazon, but Jeff will deliver the book. He's the one who'll send it. What about, have you read the Eldridge's book, Love and War? Oh, yeah. Was that helpful? Oh, yes. All right.

Starting point is 03:11:25 So that's our reading assignment that we'll throw out there. Love and War by John and Stacey Eldridge and deep-rooted marriage. Yeah, and again, it's one of the complications as you age. I forget my subtitles. Oh, that's okay. I have no clue. Yeah. But at least I know it's a deep net of marriage.

Starting point is 03:11:43 I'm glad you exist. Thank you. And I'm really happy about this conversation. And thank you for coming on and talking to us. My, both delight and honor. Thank you. So if you've made it this far, I'm willing to bet that you don't hate what you're watching. So you should, you know, maybe consider liking and subscribing.

Starting point is 03:12:12 Go on. Consider it. Consider it.

Pints With Aquinas - The Marriage Advice You Didn't Know You Needed (Dr. Dan Allender) | Ep. 586

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