Pints With Aquinas - The State of the Church w/ Bishop Joseph Strickland

Episode Date: July 20, 2021

In this episode, I talk with his Excellency, Bishop Joseph Strickland, the Catholic bishop of Tyler, Texas about the Catholic Church’s current state spiritually and ecclesiastically in the modern era. We also discuss: What it feels like to be a Catholic layman in today’s world The division in the Catholic laity in present day How to navigate the evil and confusion flooding both the world and the Church Where to stand amidst the worldly and spiritual chaos currently happening   Sign up for my free course on St. Augustine's "Confessions"!   SPONSORS Hallow: http://hallow.app/mattfradd STRIVE: https://www.strive21.com/ Homeschool Connections: https://homeschoolconnections.com/matt/   GIVING Patreon or Directly: https://pintswithaquinas.com/support/  This show (and all the plans we have in store) wouldn't be possible without you. I can't thank those of you who support me enough. Seriously! Thanks for essentially being a co-producer co-producer of the show.   LINKS Merch: https://teespring.com/stores/matt-fradd FREE 21 Day Detox From Porn Course: https://www.strive21.com/   SOCIAL Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mattfradd Twitter: https://twitter.com/mattfradd Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mattfradd Gab: https://gab.com/mattfradd Rumble: https://rumble.com/c/pintswithaquinas   MY BOOKS Get my NEW book "How To Be Happy: Saint Thomas' Secret To A Good Life," out now! Does God Exist: https://www.amazon.com/Does-God-Exist-Socratic-Dialogue-ebook/dp/B081ZGYJW3/ref=sr_1_9?dchild=1&keywords=fradd&qid=1586377974&sr=8-9 Marian Consecration With Aquinas: https://www.amazon.com/Marian-Consecration-Aquinas-Growing-Closer-ebook/dp/B083XRQMTF/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=fradd&qid=1586379026&sr=8-4 The Porn Myth: https://www.ignatius.com/The-Porn-Myth-P1985.aspx   CONTACT Book me to speak: https://www.mattfradd.com/speakerrequestform

Bishop Joseph Strickland, lovely to have you on the show. Thanks, Matt. Great to be here. Your Excellency is a proper title, isn't it? I've been texting people and asking them. Bishop or Your Excellency. Terrific. Both work. Lovely to have you here.

You're speaking tonight at a conference, is it right? Correct. At the John Bosco. John Bosco. Very good. At Franciscan. I'm glad we could snag you. Now, a lot of people don't realize this, but you are, like my children, half Australian.

Yes, very proudly, half Australian. Australian Texan. How did that happen? Well, my father, from East Texas, from the diocese where I am, a little town called Clarksville, a little town called Clarksville, was in the Navy, Second World War, like so many. Young man, teenager, joined the Navy and ended up on what was called a destroyer tender, basically a maintenance boat that followed the destroyers around. And he was stationed there in Sydney Harbor, met my mother.

As my mother told the story, they were on a launch. We would call it a launch or a barge. A launch. But they met and married and lived there about six months. They were married at St. Mary's Cathedral there in downtown Sydney. And then my father heard about the GI Bill at that time to get an education as an ex-serviceman. So he came back to actually Louisiana is where he went to school. And then we moved to Texas. So you were born here, but your mom's Aussie.

Yes. Okay. Yeah, I was born in Fredericksburg, Texas, the sixth of seven little Stricklands. You know, it's so much easier today, not just easier to fly to Australia, not during the COVID time, it's impossible to do that right now. But, you know, Skype and you can watch Australian television and sports. It's amazing how it's developed because my mother actually came on a ship. Wow. And came in 19 – they were married in 46, so she would have come in the lighter part of 1946.

And, you know, at that time she thought she could well never see her family again. Right. Didn't see them for a long time. But the next time she went, she flew on a jet. When was that? 1974. Crikey. She must have been just thrilled to get home.

And I remember as a kid, a big gift that my father would give my mother, like for Christmas or a birthday, was a call home. Oh, yeah. Because like a five-minute phone call costs $50 or something, which would be like $100 now. Yes. And now I'm just amazed. I love the idea of just on your cell phone being able to dial a number and cause a phone to ring halfway around the world

just by pressing a couple of buttons. So it's changed so much. Was your mom homesick a lot? Oh, absolutely. What did she miss the most? Very much so. Well, as a very staunch Catholic, she missed that strong Catholic community, and she missed her family.

Oh, because we're in Texas. This is Baptist country. Yeah. Yeah, very much so. And she really, it was difficult, but she then formed her own family with my dad and then seven kids. I had a brother just would have been just older than me that dies as an sister, so I'm the tail ender, you might say. But it was hard for my mother, but my father was Southern Baptist, converted to the Catholic faith. And as I've told people, I think a lot of the reason that I'm here, at least what I absorbed as a kid growing up there in East Texas with very few Catholics, as a kid growing up there in East Texas with very few Catholics, we were taught that being Catholic was just like, we were superstars. Being Catholic was the greatest gift we had. And especially, frankly, coming from this Australian mother, you know, that was, it was just like, wow,

we're Catholic, our mother's from Australia, which was, yeah, and it was just like, wow, we're Catholic. Our mother's from Australia. Which was, yeah, and it was so different than anyone else there in East Texas. I mean, my sisters had friends that would call just to hear my mother answer the phone because it's like, oh, man. So we definitely have Australians who watch the show. So what's some things you love about Australia? Did you ever get into cricket or Aussie rules football or anything like that? Not really.

I've watched a little bit of the Aussie rules football. And as the gridiron, as they call ours, is confusing to y'all, the Aussie rules was always confusing to me. But I did go to a few matches and just watch with family there. I've been able to visit a number of times, and I love a lot of the food. I remember Violet Crumbles. Oh, the greatest! And those kind of things that we were talking about.

You can get them here now. Do you know that? Yeah, I know. We were talking about Vegemite, which my mother loved. I mean, the family relatives would come and visit and bring her a big jar of Vegemite. Good family. And she was safe. We didn't touch the stuff. None of us kids liked it, but she loved it. I gave Vegemite to my kids at a very young age when they were babies.

And they've all got a taste for it. So you indoctrinated them. I indoctrinated them. That's right. I was reading the catechism to them while I was spoon feeding them Vegemite and hoping that both will stick. Yeah. Very good.

Okay. So your favorite, and then we'll move on to more important things. But Violet Crumble, what's meat pies? spoon, feeding them Vegemite and hoping that both will stick. Yeah. Very good. Okay, so your favorite, and then we'll move on to more important things, but Violet Crumble, what's – meat pies. Oh, meat pies. Got a lot of meat pies. Sausage risoles. Love a lot of that stuff.

And I had a chance to spend a summer with my grandmother. Actually her youngest brother was the pastor of the Catholic church there in that community in North Strathfield. And so I was in the seminary. It was between college and theology, and I was able to help my uncle out with funerals and just go to daily mass there. And so I had a chance to really experience the family and the culture, not just for a brief visit, for about 10 weeks. So it was good. Yeah. If I go home to Australia now without my kids, my parents wouldn't be happy. They wouldn't want to see me. They don't really want to see me at all. It's really just the kids

they're after. But terrific, terrific. And you were ordained a priest what year? 1985. That's fantastic. I was two. Very good. And then 2012, you were ordained a bishop. Is that right? Correct. November 2012. And we live in crazy times, Bishop.

Oh, yeah. You can say that again. Yeah. In Australia, in the U.S. Everywhere. Worldwide crazy times. During the election lead up when there were riots in the streets, businesses burning down, it was about two in the morning.

I got out of bed and opened up my laptop and looked up Australia, which at that point just seemed like the shire in my mind. But it didn't take long until I realized, yeah, things are divisive and divided everywhere. I mean, it's no better in Australia. The COVID lockdown restrictions are, in my estimation, crazy. Brisbane is one of the biggest cities there. My sister lives there. There was one case of COVID discovered, and so the entire city shut down for three days. This was two weeks ago. Really? Yeah. It really is a level of insanity, I would say,

but we just have to navigate it the best we can. Yeah. So if I was to try to sort of sum up or give an analogy for what it feels like being a Catholic in the United States today, I would say that it feels like we're a group of people lost in the woods who are desperately looking for a leader to guide us through this chaos. And we're divided even as Catholics.

Some people are looking to Pope Francis, some to Taylor Marshall, some to yourself, Your Excellency, some to whoever, and we're just looking for somebody to make sense of the chaos in which we find ourselves. And it doesn't seem forthcoming. I mean, even people that we were championing at one point, like Altman perhaps or Vigano, started out saying great things and then to my estimation i'm you don't need to comment on this started to say things that i wouldn't want to get behind well i agree with that um and it's interesting i know it sounds probably

simplistic in some ways but sometimes the truth is simpler than all the complexity. We need to get behind Jesus Christ, not Paul, not Apollos, Jesus Christ. And that, to me, is what I keep trying to do. And I know it sounds, I mean, growing up in a very evangelical Protestant area, I would say I benefit from that because some of the clarity of it's about Jesus Christ is it's in the air in East Texas. Not many Catholics, but many people committed to Jesus Christ. And frankly, sometimes their theology is a little off as far as from what I consider Catholic Orthodox teaching, but at least they're focusing

on Jesus Christ and the fullness of his message. To me, that's where we have to be very, that's what I would encourage anyone listening. You know, you get frustrated at the human leadership in all sorts of spheres of life, in the church, in government, in business, in Hollywood, everywhere. Look to Christ himself. And I know that's easier said than done in some ways because they're different interpretations of him. But listen to his words.

And one of the things that I would encourage people that are feeling—I mean, I think that's a good image of sort of wandering through the woods and looking like, well, is it this path? Is it that path? Where do we go? Darrell Bock Yeah, that guy seems pretty certain it's this path, so we're going with him, and we're going to demonize that group who's going with that guy.

Richard Averbeck Then you go off a cliff, and you say, whoops, that was the wrong direction. But I think to keep looking—and one thing that I've read recently is talks about the bracketing of Scripture. And I would extend that even to the bracketing of truth, the bracketing of what the Church teaches, the bracketing of the Catechism. And what was meant by that as I read about the bracketing of Scripture is a tendency, and this is long-term, this didn't just start happening in 2020 or something, but a tendency to sort of bracket off the hard stuff, the difficult messages.

And we really, I believe, need to embrace the full teaching of Jesus Christ in the Gospels, read the Gospel, and not leave out those verses that may start talking about, I mean, like today's Gospel for this 15th Monday of Ordinary Time, Jesus said, I came to divide, and the sword, and he speaks of, you know, I came to divide and the sword, and he speaks of, you know, the reality that mother against daughter and son against father. We tend to sort of bracket that off, at least in popular culture. I mean, a lot of people, you know, I get the pushback. I'm sure you do at times. A lot of our culture says Jesus Christ was just a, you know, sort of a man that lived a couple of thousand years ago, and these people that follow him are just insane. You know, there's a lot of that out there. But even for we who believe in Jesus Christ,

I think there's a tendency to sort of pick and choose what he said. And I feel the challenge, and I would encourage everyone to face the challenge of listening to everything Christ says. And then if you really listen to his full message, I certainly acknowledge I'm messed up in areas. I'm a sinner, and we need to keep looking to him. But I think there's a tendency to sort of change his message. I mean, But I think there's a tendency to sort of change his message. I mean, I've heard priests say that that needs to change. What we've long taught needs to change.

I don't believe that. I think we need to change. I think we need to continually seek to conform ourselves to Christ. Yeah, that's great. And I think a lot of us, myself included, have fallen into this trap. It's addictive to be refreshing Catholic news sites and get all upset about something, which feels productive. It feels like you're engaged in something. You can kind of get addicted to that outrage. But as you say, we really might have to ask ourselves a long, hard question. Am I reading the words of this particular blogger or listening to

the words of this particular YouTuber as much as I'm reading the Gospels? A lot of the time the answer is, yeah, I'm not reading the Gospels, actually. You know, maybe I am. I think that's a challenge for all of us to keep going. One of the best things that I've read recently, I mean, the Catechism to me is a great treasure, one of the great legacies of St. Pope John Paul II to me is the Catechism, because it locks it down into—and it's not something that was, you know, I think that came out in 1996, but it's not new truth. It's been taught for the history of the church, and to keep going back to that and say, well, it's challenging in the 21st century to read this. But one of my favorite things is it

talks about, and I quote it often, that all of Scripture speaks of Jesus Christ, from the very beginning of Genesis to the last words of Revelation, all the books of Scripture in one way or another, their facets, the way I've put it, it's almost like the written code of Jesus Christ, of how he exists. Who is Jesus Christ? And there are different elements of that. And certainly in the Old Testament, some of that is like, how is this about Jesus Christ? But if you really begin to put it in context and dig down, I mean, we just started now in the readings, the book of Exodus today started. And I love, you know, as you know, the story, that phrase, the whole plight of slaves, you know, that it talks about as it's

beginning to move into the story of Moses and then the exodus of the people of Israel, freeing them from slavery, real slavery in Egypt. And we fast forward that to Christ freeing us from the slavery of sin and death and all the parallels. But knowing Scripture as—I always forget which of the—I think it was St. Jerome said, ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. If it wasn't him— He's a Jerome, wasn't he? Yeah, it was Jerome. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Good, I'm glad I got it right. He could be a John Paul over here, yeah. And that's so true. And I think that what we need to remember, absolutely the Gospels, but not just the Gospels, but the whole of Scripture is, I mean, he's the incarnate Word, and the Scripture is the Word of God. And this year of St. Joseph, I love to reflect on St. Joseph holding Christ in his arms, as any dad holds their two-year-old son or infant son.

And at the same time, Joseph, as a faithful member of the people of Israel, as a faithful Jew, very likely would have held a scroll of Isaiah, maybe showed Christ as a little boy, the scroll of Isaiah that he later reads from. And to know that St. Joseph is that man who's holding the body of Christ and holding, he's holding the word incarnate and holding the word that is scripture, and it's all one word. It's the word of truth. So, I mean, in this year of St. Joseph, my namesake, I love to think about that. And yet, I think this simple and important and the most important message that you've just presented here, like get back to the scriptures, get back to the catechism, get back to praying for the grace to grow in virtue. It's just, I don't know, there's a lot of angry Catholics.

Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, terrific. We'll do that. But I think a lot of Catholics are like, yeah, but y'all bishops, you've dropped the ball. Like this weak, effeminate leadership where you don't actually stand up and say what needs to be said in the face of a culture that's eating us alive. We can't trust you anymore. So we have to be the ones who are saying this and rallying around anyone who will say it strongly. I don't know what I'm saying here except just to express the frustration that I hear from a lot of people. Darrell Bock And I hear it as well. And honestly, I became a bishop in 2012 and was kind of learning the ropes. There's no manual on how to be a bishop. But in a sense, the heritage of the church and the theology and the canon law, honestly, it's probably

somewhat controversial, but I believe we need to, I need to, I'll just speak for myself, I'm on a path of relearning what it really means to be a bishop. And it's not about being a part of any kind of conference or association or group. It's being the pastor of a local church, which is called a diocese or an archdiocese. I mean, I'm in East Texas, 24,000 square miles, 33 counties, more cows than people probably, certainly a lot more evangelical Protestants than Catholics. We're less than 10% Catholic there in the Diocese of Tyler. But if you listen to what the church's model is, it's my job to shepherd. There are about,

last I checked, about 1.5 million people in those 33 counties. And I try to remind myself that I'm there to pastor all of them, to pray for all of those souls, and to be about the work of the salvation of souls. That's the reason the church exists. And I think a lot of times, even among bishops, among Catholics, it's like, oh, you know, Bishop Strickland talks about the salvation of souls, and he's not concerned about how people are suffering. In my mind, and if you listen to Christ, I think if we have the goal of the salvation of our soul, then absolutely you today are concerned about all the ways that people are being abused and mistreated, how life is being denigrated, how lives are being destroyed. Absolutely, you're concerned about that.

To me, that's the context of caring about all the social ills of the world. But I really believe that I try to keep learning, what does a bishop need to do? Proclaim the truth, to govern the people, to bring people to sanctity in the sacraments. Teach, govern, and sanctify. That's the three-fold work of a bishop and a priest, really, and in a sense of the church for every mom and dad in a family to teach, govern, and sanctify. There are elements of that for everyone. I think we need to, I need to learn that take care of the people where I am and teach them and guide them. And if others resonate with that same message, great. But I have a responsibility there. And frankly,

that's what drives me to speak up as the bishop from Tyler, Texas. Many people that are listening don't know where Tyler is. I mean, you could Google it and say, Tyler, Texas. Oh, it's there, not far from Dallas, not far from Houston, right up in the northeastern corner of Texas. But it's one local church, one diocese among thousands in the world, and every bishop is there to guide people to eternal salvation, the salvation of souls. And I think that the way the structures of the church are operating in the 21st century, I think all of us need to remember that.

And honestly, I think there's a tendency for bishops to look to, well, what does the UICCB say? Or what does the conference say of this group or that region? What does Region 10 say? Instead of saying, what does the gospel say? And what do I need to tell my people about living the gospel? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's not unlike a father who perhaps originally wanted to lead his wife and soon-to-be children

to heaven, but then gets bogged down in just managing a household and managing the checkbooks and things like that, and you kind of forget what it's about. When you became a bishop, did it shock you that it perhaps was more about sort of maintaining than it was the pastoring of souls? Well, it didn't initially shock me, but honestly, as some of the things we faced in the, you know, I'll say it, in my experience, the horrible summer of 2018, when all the McCarrick mess was coming out and this next wave of the abuse crisis that just many people said, I've had it. You know, in 2002, this was supposed to have been dealt with. I think

we moved in the right direction of dealing with it. But I think some of that managerial aspect still is what we saw once again revealed in 2018. And so it's been, I'd honestly have to say a conversion process for me to say, because really, I've spoken out because I'm worried about my own salvation, frankly. I mean, I don't want to be, you probably are familiar with, and I don't know who said this, maybe more than one saint along the way, but there is this idea that the road to hell is paved with the skulls of bishops, and I don't want to be part of that pavement. I mean, very selfishly, I don't want to be part of that pavement. And so I try to say, and just in my own prayer, I pray a lot the sorrowful mysteries of the rosary along with the stations of the cross it's just become sort of one

passion of christ for me and one of the key moments in in the journey of the cross for christ is when he's stripped of his garments when he's stripped of everything and here's the son of god he allowed himself to be stripped of you know i, I mean, certainly he's still divine, but in his experience of the 33 years of living in this world, when he was incarnate in the womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary, he really entered a life where he was stripped of the glory of his divinity, willingly laying that down so that he could take up the cross, really, of just being human. From the moment of his conception, he takes that up.

And when he is stripped, as he's prepared to be the next station, as being nailed to the cross, I really pray about that a lot because, honestly, I believe as a bishop, you as a dad, Honestly, I believe as a bishop, you as a dad, all of us as disciples, we need to be willing to be stripped of everything in order to follow him. Many of the great saints did that. They were stripped of their heads sometimes because they were unwilling to deny Christ. And that's what I feel really compelled to be willing to do. I would like to see the church stripped, and I think a lot of people would too, stripped of all the unnecessary baggage and just proclaim

the truth. I think we have the good cardinal distributing Holy Communion to Biden, who is openly saying and promoting the slaughtering of children in the womb. It's like, why are you doing this? Is it for power? Is it for money? I think a lot of Catholics are like, look, the church is shrinking anyway. So whatever you think you're doing to grow this establishment isn't working. So if we could just be committed to the gospel and let the chips fall where they may, we might have a smaller church, but it would be at least faithful to Christ.

Well, and I think that's the point. What is Christ's perspective there? And again, it goes back to me, the salvation of souls. I think a lot of this controversy about President Biden and the Eucharist and all of that, it's really, to me, it's off track because we should be worried about Joseph Biden as a son of God. Like Matt Fred is a son of God. We're all sons and daughters of God. And by the way, that's the only versions there are. Humans are either sons or daughters. All the confusion.

And that gets supported as well. Jesus Christ came to set us free from all of that falsehood, the false narrative of what it means to be human. And that was there in the Roman Empire when Christ was incarnate in this world. He faced a lot of what we're facing. And it was good news for the people then. It's still good news. But it's an interesting time when many people have heard the story of Christ in one way or another, and they've rejected it.

And when Christ first came, he was news, and a lot of people rejected him as he walked the earth. But the dynamic was there that this was new. This was something new. And humans always like the new thing, the latest thing. And I think that's where St. John Paul II, and it actually started with St. Paul VI, but the idea of the new evangelization. Paul VI, but the idea of the new evangelization. And I think it really is us. It's not about going out. It's going back into our hearts and being re-evangelized and reawakened to the treasure that we have in Jesus Christ, the whole controversy of the Eucharist.

So what it comes down to is for any man or woman who is publicly i mean you can't get much more public than being the president opposing the sanctity of life but anyone you know if you're in your neighborhood and you're known to be supporting planned parenthood in the abortion industry which is that's what it is yeah absolutely that person shouldn't be receiving communion either. Yeah, Matt Fradd, just little Matt Fradd, you know, with this little platform here. Same is true of me. But I love how you put that, that Joe Biden is the son of God, because I sometimes worry

that I'd be more delighted, and I say this to my shame, I'd be more delighted to see President Joe Biden humiliated at church being denied the reception of communion than I would be in his repentance and acceptance of Jesus Christ. Well, and I think we all have to acknowledge that the real goal is his repentance. I mean, we need to pray for anyone that, you know, I'm sure like you were saying earlier, sure like you were saying earlier i think we all have to be careful about you know this saturation of the news cycles and everything that we i mean i'm sure most of us have i confess i've yelled at tv screens before it's a little bit you know insane because the tv screen is inanimate really but but all the messages being you know bombarded through the TV screen, we yell at that.

But I think we do need to get back to basic truth and to recognize that the loving thing to do is to guide someone to the truth. To be compassionate, to be loving, to be kind is to guide someone to the truth. To be compassionate, to be loving, to be kind is to guide someone to the truth. And so kindness toward Joe Biden or Joe Jones or Jane Jones, anyone, is to say, this is the truth. This is what God has revealed to us. You need to pull back from this false narrative that you're caught up in. And I think, you know, I've said to people, wouldn't it be amazing, not just for Joe Biden, but for any public figure that is clearly, I mean, you know, you think of some of the people in Hollywood or the people in sports that have come out with statements that are contrary to what the gospel of Jesus Christ is about.

And occasionally you hear about those conversions. That's what we need to be praying for, for the salvation of that soul, and to recognize that we're on better footing for our own personal salvation. I mean, that's where I'm coming from. The best work I can do for my own salvation, I mean, we shouldn't be selfish, but we are to be concerned about our own salvation. But the best work I can do is to share truth with others

and to work toward bringing people out of darkness into the light. And I've had, you know, as I've been speaking out and become known in ways that are still bizarre to me, that, you know, I'm a kid from East Texas, and people are contacting me from around the world saying, sometimes not nice things, but a lot of times, very often, saying thank you for your voice of sanity in an insane world. But it all comes down to what do we believe and what do we know

to be the truth and being willing to stand for it? You know, I like to use that image of what are you willing to stand up for, and also what hill are you willing to die on? Because that begins to really tell you what you really believe. And one thing that is a reflection that I have, I love the saints, and I encourage people to see them as real people. people, to see them as real people. And frankly, some of the martyr bishops are real heroes of mind these days. I mean, Thomas of Becket and St. John Fisher, who was a companion of St. Thomas More, lived at the same time or beheaded pretty close to the same time. I mean, you know, I don't think we need to be looking for a beheading, you know. That's not our vocation, I don't believe. But to be willing to die for the truth is what, I mean, I love St. Thomas More. I studied canon law, and he's an attorney. He's the patron saint of

attorneys. And St. Thomas More, he didn't willingly, he didn't just say, okay, Henry VIII, just take my head off. Just behead me. I'm done. He, like I like to say, would bob and weave and try to diplomatically not give up the truth, but also kind of try to nuance it so that he didn't lose his head. But ultimately, when it came to it, he was willing to die for the truth. And I think that that is what all of us need to be, whether it's a single man or a father and husband and a family or a woman, all of us, all of humanity, we need to be seeking the truth and willing to die for it. And, you know, Pope Benedict XVI is famous for talking about this, you know, relativism that is much more overtaken us, I think, than even when he spoke about it when he was – when

it was actually, I think, at John when he spoke about it when he was – when it was actually, I think, at John Paul II's funeral before he even became pope. But the relativism, it's really taken over. So there is no objective truth. It's just what do you feel, what do I feel, and it becomes fluid. And so it's not truth at all. It's just today's flavor, and that really is insanity. When you really go down that path, it becomes insanity. I love how many times you've mentioned the name of our Savior, Jesus Christ, in this interview. And I've had somebody say that about you to me, saying that they were a Protestant, and they went to hear you give a talk, and they were so impressed with how often you spoke of

our Lord. And I bring that up because I think it would, you know, people who are watching right now and who will watch later probably would love for us to delve into this particular, you know, prelate or this particular scandal. And I think we've got to just take a look at, like, why do I want that? And how often do we legitimize gossip and detraction under the guise of churchy language? Yeah, I mean, how have you experienced that in the people that you've been pastoring? Because, I mean, we could go on a whole rant here, right, about Vigano and Altman. And people would love it. Like, I would love it, but I don't want to love it. I want to talk about our Lord. I want to point to things that are errors, call people to the truth. I myself need and wish to, by God's grace, repent of my own sin. But as far as getting into the

weeds of this particular person's life, like, what right do I have to get into that? I don't know. And I think that's very important for a lot of reasons, because really it is about Jesus Christ. He's truth incarnate. He's always going to be the source of truth in that reality of what is true. And I think that the tendency—I love the Acts of the Apostles, and St. Paul says, you know, it's not about me, it's not about Apollos, it's about Jesus. And I think we deal with a lot of the same situation. It's like the church keeps relearning the truth over and over again, in a sense, every one of us in our own personal journey.

And then the different times and the moments in history, it's like we've got to keep relearning the truth. And that's what I love to tell people, because I talk to people, I get emails, I get letters, I get contacted by people all the time that are very worried, very concerned, and approaching despair at times. I mean, I've talked to people that were saying, Bishop, I'm ready to leave the church. And I think that what I would encourage is to remember that the truth, it's not Catholic truth. It's not a version. Seek the truth. I mean, philosophically, I studied philosophy, and I think we need to get back to

some of that. The truth is a real thing. It's not some flavor of the month, but it's a reality that guides us. And the more we get away from it, the more we lose ourselves. We lose our own path, and we lose the path of the world. So I would encourage all of us. And too, what I love to remind people is, I mean, you look at the Catholic Church. I'm sure we've both, you know, heard the story or, you know, just the image of, you know, one of the proofs of the Catholic Church is the history of corruption, and it's still here. And that's because it's managed to hang on to the truth, the deposit of faith. That's one thing that bishops, every bishop ordained. I was just recently at the ordination of another bishop in Texas,

and the promises are all the same. Guard the deposit of faith, whole and entire. I take that very seriously. There are numerous promises. It was funny when I was ordained a bishop, because priests make promises as well, but there are several more promises when you're ordained a bishop. And one of them is to be respectful and obedient to the Petrine office, to the Pope. And I take that very seriously as well.

But blending it all together, Pope Francis as Bishop of Rome, myself as Bishop of Tyler, every bishop, every faithful baptized Catholic, what are we called to? To be faithful to Christ and to his truth and to be obedient and respectful to that truth and to work together. So I think we need to remember the truth is what lasts. For ourselves, when you find the truth, you can still wander. I mean, I'm a sinner. Finding the truth doesn't eliminate our sinfulness. Hopefully we grow further and further into virtue and more and more away from sin, but we're still

sinners. We need to have that humility of just flat out recognizing, I need to get to confession. And I love to tell people, make a good examination of conscience, and very likely, if you really do that, you'll say, yep, I need to get to confession. I mean, nine times out of ten. Even, I mean, you know, you don't need to go to confession every day. That probably gets a little psychologically out of balance. You can get scrupulous. I don't think scrupulosity is a huge problem in broad society these days, but we do have to be cautious there and not get so focused on sin that we forget God's mercy, and that ultimately we rely on that mercy. But I think there's a distortion of mercy in the world today, and even in the church sometimes.

We've got to repent of our sins, and then we position ourselves to benefit from the mercy of God. I would imagine both of us, I can say, I'm not going to impose it on you, but I've gone to confession and really felt the tremendous weight lifted from my shoulders. Thankfully, it's not always that serious, but there are times when you really know you need to confess this and to be freed from the burden of your sinfulness in that moment. And it's glorious. It's a freedom. And what I try to remind people, I love to encourage faith in the real presence. I try to model that. I try to live that as a priest.

You do. You do it well. I believe that. But also, I think one of the things that we need to emphasize more But also, I think one of the things that we need to emphasize more in this time is also Christ is present in his merciful love in the sacrament of confession. That's an encounter with Jesus Christ, as really all the sacraments are, but especially the Eucharist and confession or reconciliation. Those are too intimate. You don't get more intimate than receiving his body and blood as your food to nurture you. You don't.

The second most intimate to me is that he knows your sins, and you're willing to acknowledge them, and he's willing to forgive you. I mean, you know, we all play with ourselves spiritually and psychologically and say, well, I don't want to mention that. God already knows what we've done. But he still loves us, and he wants us to be freed from that. So I think that the sacrament of confession is something that we really need to emphasize. As we talked about it at the recent bishops' conference meeting, I said, if we work on this document for the Eucharist, it needs to include very clearly that penance is related to it. If we get too far from the sacrament of confession, even if we haven't committed serious sin, we're jeopardizing how worthy we are.

We can never really be worthy, but we need to be as worthy as we can of receiving the body and blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ. And confession is the way that we can keep, for the most part, humbly acknowledging I'm a sinner. I need your mercy and forgiveness. And that positions us better to receive him. But if you haven't been to confession in months and months, stop and ask yourself, is that really appropriate for anyone? Whether they're well-known in the public eye or the quiet man or woman in the pew that nobody knows, all of us have that same standard that we need to ask ourselves, have I been to confession and really sought to go and

sin no more, as we strive to do, to avoid temptation and sin? That is what moves us to be able to be fed by the Eucharist. In a sense, it reminds me of even just for our bodies, to really receive the nutrients, you have to receive them in a certain way. You have to be able to absorb those nutrients. And sometimes if it's packaged the wrong way, the nutrients don't really benefit you. It's the same thing with the Eucharist. The more you've been reconciled to the body of Christ, the more you're nurtured by the body of Christ when you receive him in the Eucharist. You're spot on, though, about how we psychologize, we downplay our sins, we obfuscate them.

We go to the confessional and we use different words than the ones that really embarrass us, or we bury the sin we're most ashamed of in the middle or right at the end. And I imagine as a pastor, you must just be thrilled when somebody comes and basically goes to war on their ego in front of you. What's that like as a priest? Well, Matt, I'd have to say, and I think most priests would agree with me, would agree with me. That's one of the most special moments of being a priest, is when you can tell someone has really laid their heart wide open with all the filth of their sin, whatever sin it is, and just you can tell. And sometimes, frankly, those moments come when it's been a long time. I would encourage people not to allow it to be years.

But sometimes that's when you can really see it. But not always. I mean, it's sometimes, I mean, it comes in different ways, but it is a beautiful moment. And for me as a priest, it just underscores what I was saying. It's not Joe forgiving this person. It's Jesus Christ working through me as one of his priests. But I love to kind of use the imagery, and I feel the same thing very often at the Mass, at the Eucharist. But it's like I'm sort of stepping back and witnessing Christ at work as the other person is witnessing

Christ at work. We're both focused on Christ. And in those really – honestly, as a priest, I've heard a lot of confessions, and it's just sort of the same over and over again, especially children's confessions. I've pulled my puppy dog's tail and fought it with my brother, those kind of things. But to me, those sort of what you might say were mundane, sort of ordinary confessions, they sort of till the soil for those times when we need the real impact of a beautiful admitting that we're sinners and freeing ourselves from that

sin by offering it to God very openly. And I love to, in talking to teenagers especially, like you said there, you can sort of cosmetically dress up the sin using words and euphemisms. And I've told them, and I've experienced honestly myself, that it's more healing to just say it. If that word is sort of flashing in your brain, I got to find a way to say that without saying it. Just say the word, and it'll free you from that sin in psychological ways that certainly spiritually, if you honestly say it, you know, the language is not the most significant thing, but it can be more freeing to us to say the word you don't want to say. Because that's another act of love and trust and belief that the mercy's there.

And really, Matt, I believe that a lot of what's broken in our world, as we were talking about the riots and the craziness of the summer that we had just last year in the middle of COVID and all the stuff going on, all the people railing at whoever or whatever, I would love to talk to that person.

And I know it sounds sort of evangelical, but I think it's the question to ask. Do you believe God loves you? Have you felt real love in your life? And I think very often, if that person is honest, they're going to say, no, nobody loves me. Just real quick to insert here, this just came to me. I think the reason we don't want to confess our sin or we don't confess our sin is either because we don't believe in sin or we don't believe in the mercy of God. If we don't believe in sin, what's the point in confessing it? If we don't believe in the mercy of God, we fall into despair.

And we maybe get fixated on the sins of others as opposed to repenting and trusting in the mercy of God. And as you talk about the mercy, I really believe you don't believe in the love of God. You don't believe that God loves Matt Fradd more than Matt could ever understand. And the same thing for Joe Strickland. I mean, that God loves us. I don't think, I mean, it sounds sort of simple, but it really is a profound challenge to really deeply believe that. And I would describe myself, and I think most of us, maybe all of us, but certainly the majority of humans are on a journey of really believing God is love.

Jesus Christ is love incarnate, and we tend to hedge that and say that we diminish that in one way or another, whether it's for ourselves or for this group of people or that group. But to say God is love and he's calling us all to share in his everlasting love. I mean, that's what it's about. I forget where it is in the epistles where one of them—I'm a great Catholic—said, you know, preach the word in season and out of season. And I think some—

St. Paul. Beg your pardon? St. Paul. I'm a good Catholic, too. I couldn't give you chapter and verse. I'm a good Catholic too. I couldn't give you chapter and verse. But I think sometimes it's out of season to preach mercy in a traditional context. Because as traditional Catholics, we're so frustrated that we aren't being told about sin and hell and the possibility that we can go to hell for all eternity. These are legitimate concerns. The whole gospel has to be preached.

But sometimes I've experienced that just by proclaiming the mercy and love of God upsets people because they want to say, no, no, we don't need to hear about that. We need to hear about hell more. Like, well, maybe you do, but we have to proclaim the whole gospel. And I think the fact is there's a lot of people out there, including traditional Catholics, who have a very difficult time, including myself, receiving the love of God. And it's not because of anything I've done, but it's because of who he is. Yeah. And I think that one way I would say it, Matt, is if following Christ is comfortable and not challenging, you really need to rethink where you're headed.

to rethink where you're headed. Because in my experience, it grows more and more challenging the more you try to follow him. And I think that there's a tendency just humanly for all of us to say, well, I'm holier than that person, and I'm much better on this path. And I think the caution light needs to be flashing any time we start thinking that way, because – and I think there's a lot of that in the brokenness of the church. It's like, you must do these things.

And even as a bishop, I mean, there are plenty of people that say, oh, bishop, I like this, what you say, and this and this, but you're wrong here. I mean, it's like you're not quite as holy as I am or as holy as the standard that I'm setting. And I think we all have to be very careful about that because there's a tendency to look at the other and say, oh, they're not holy enough. And, you know, in humility, we all need to be on the side of acknowledging, no, I'm not holy enough, and I need to repent of sin. And I think that this is a time, it's a word that I use carefully because it's been, like so many things, it's been politicized.

But I think spiritually, we do need to think of reparation because the blasphemies, the atrocities toward Christianity by Christ himself, toward the sacraments and the Eucharist, I mean, the burning of churches, all the things that have happened in this country and around the world at different times, I think it is a time of conscious reparation for sin. You know, that word reparation gets politicized, and it's like, well, we got to, you know, we both, you're full Australian, I'm half Australian. The issue of the Aborigines there, the American Indians here, you know, there probably are some moments for reparation there, but I think that gets carried away. but spiritual reparation that I would emphasize, doing our best to acknowledge that part of my repentance is to acknowledge the ways that my brothers

and sisters are blaspheming and committing atrocities toward the sanctity of God in our time and in our world. And I think we do need to pray for that. Darrell Bock What are some practical ways we can do that? What are some practical ways we can make reparations? God in our time and in our world. And I think we do need to pray for that. What are some practical ways we can do that? Some practical ways we can make reparations? I think doing our own penance. You know, Our Lady says in some of her apparitions, and some of the great saints speak of just – and I try to tune myself into this more – to just, as my mother would have said, offer it up. But to really have that spirit of rather than railing against something,

maybe it is an injustice, maybe it is something where we're not being treated fairly or whatever it is, and maybe it's something as simple as you order a cup of coffee, we both love coffee, and it's stone cold. Rather than throwing that in the face of the person or railing, but just to say, okay, Lord, I hate cold coffee, but I'll just offer that tiny little moment of recognizing I'm not as big as I think I am. And I think that just that attitude, I found it helpful. Rather than, you know, something as simple as, you know, let's say you're kneeling for a prayer, and as you knelt down, you realize you're on a cord that really is sort of killing you.

Your knees sort of, I mean, my knees are 62 years old. They're not as young as they used to be. But to just, rather than jumping up and say, oh, you know, I can't take that, to just say, Lord, you know, you suffered a lot. That's beautiful. That's powerful. A little bit of a knee pain that I know is temporary. One of the reasons what you're saying is so powerful is I think most of us would say or would like to say that if the time came, I would be martyred. I would give my life for the Lord. And yet, with the same people saying that, including myself, aren't drinking their cold

coffee or kneeling places that are uncomfortable, and we're whining about it. If I cannot be faithful in these small things, I will never be able to be faithful in those larger ones, presumably. And I think, I mean, if you watch a little television, so many of the commercials are about eliminating pain and eliminating aging and basically controlling our lives to eliminate anything like that. Any discomfort. And instead of reaching for the medication, maybe, I mean, certainly, you know, I'm not anti-medication.

It can be life-saving. Before all of your critics say it. But sometimes to just say, I don't really need that Tylenol. I can deal with this headache. Yeah, yeah. We both advertise different ones. I thought that was good. They're not going to pay us.

But yeah, see, that's really powerful. Hey, I wanted to ask you your opinion on how the COVID crisis was dealt with in the church, because it is very easy to point our finger at bishops and cast blame, and in particular instances that may be appropriate, but it must be very difficult to be a bishop and to know what to do. You're only given the information you're given. What was that like for you, and how do you think the bishops in the United States dealt with this crisis? Well, the way I would put it, Matt, is in putting myself at the front of the line of what was missing, I don't think we rose to the moment the way we could have in many ways.

I mean, and I could talk for a long time. I won't drag you into all of that. But I think in virtually every dimension of living the faith and being a shepherd that I didn't rise to the moment the way I should have. How so? Well, you know, thinking back to March, April, when it all hit, you know, I never locked our churches. I never said, you can't come and pray, which some places they locked them up. I mean, literally locked the building. I always said the churches are open, but we did suspend having public mass

because basically we were told to by the public authority. And at that moment, and I think that I love your question because I think we have to be very careful about the lens of today, July 12, 2021. We know different things. There are a lot of things I still don't know. There's much confusion. But in, say, March 12 of 2020, when it was really just hitting us in East Texas, there were a lot of unknowns. I mean, we had a meeting with our financial managers that, you know, we didn't

know what was going to happen. And we tried to make some reasonably conservative decisions about investments and all. And we have very minimal investments, really. We're not a wealthy diocese, but we have, thankfully, to the generosity of the people, we have a few resources invested, and we made some decisions that, because we didn't know what was going to happen. So I think we have to be careful in not looking back and say, oh, we should have done this, we should have done that, and these bad bishops and everything. But I can acknowledge that, I mean, like, my estimation is that we could have really never needed the general dispensation from the mass, because canon law has it already built in. But I'll confess that I didn't turn to that and say let's just use what the code of canon law says because it says if you're seriously ill or if

there are reasons then you're dispensed from the obligation to go to sunday mass i mean it's our and that's what i reverted to when we did open up this past May after the government said, of Texas, said, we're open. I said, certainly, if you need to still stay at home or if you need to use that canonical dispensation that's built in, if you're seriously ill, if you're immune compromised because you're going through cancer surgery or through cancer therapy, you're not obligated to go to Mass. If you're very seriously ill or if you're threatened in some way, I mean, there's a lot there that is automatically your dispense. I mean, it's reasonable.

Christ is not asking us to drag ourselves half dead to mass and maybe threaten others with a serious illness of some kind or really compromise our health in unnecessary ways. I think we should have, in retrospect, I should have really just invoked that and not given a general dispensation to the 20-year-old who's perfectly healthy. But of course, part of that was also, I mean, even looking back at that, you have to acknowledge that they're saying you can't go to the building, I mean, as far as gathering for a mass. And so in that sense, people deserved a dispensation. By canon law, you should never obligate people to do something that they can't reasonably fulfill. So it was a very confused time, but I think moving

forward, hopefully we learn from it and we recognize that how do we manage what's coming next and continuing to, thankfully, at least in this country, the pandemic seems to be subsiding. Hopefully it continues to subside, but we hopefully learn from the mistakes we've made and all the confusion and make the best reasonable choices based on knowledge and faith, you know, that can guide us. But it is a tough time. Indeed. That's what I was going to ask you. Suppose there are lockdowns three months from now because there's another outbreak. What does Bishop Joseph Strickland do in his diocese?

Like, how does it look different? Well, I would be very slow to enter into another lockdown. I would emphasize, if you feel the need to stay home, then stay home. I would hope – I mean, if the government imposes it again, I mean, I pray it doesn't. But if it did, honestly, I think you just have to reasonably look at the moment where you are, doing your best to stay true to Christ and true to his teachings, but also deal with the world that you live in. Okay, that's good.

What I want to do now, Bishop, is take a three-minute break, and then we're going to come back, and I've got a bunch of questions from our patrons. Is that okay? Sure. Cool. Thank you so much. All right. I want to say thank you to two of our sponsors, the first being Homeschool Connections. If you are a parent who is homeschooling or who is considering homeschooling, you need to check out homeschoolconnections.com slash Matt. There is a link in the description below. This is an amazing

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We've got some questions here from my patrons, so I haven't read these ahead of time. Can't vouch for them. We'll see how we go here. Paul Binner, thanks for being a patron, Paul paul says how much of the problem in the church is due to poorly catechized or poorly formed bishops versus laxity and cowardice is it better to have a valid yet illicit mass or no mass at all okay these are a lot of two different questions there yeah so maybe we'll start with the first one how much of the problem is in the church is due to poorly catechized and poorly formed bishops

as opposed to them just being lax or cowardly? Well, I think that's a big part of the problem. We've gone through a time. I'm 62 years old. Catechesis has been pretty weak in my lifetime. And I have to say, I was, you might say, a victim of that. Thankfully, I had a strong Catholic family. And as I've said before, being Catholic was the best thing ever. That's what was really in the air that I grew up in. So I knew the basics, but the catechesis was weak outside the home,

and really learning the great treasure of truth and the great heritage of the church with its history, the church fathers, I mean, the scriptures, it was just, you know, a lifetime of learning that every Catholic should be involved in. And so watered down and bracketed to some extent, I'll just speak for myself. As a bishop, I think that yes. And in many ways, my journey as a bishop is to wake up to the beauty and the good news that the fullness of the truth brings, the joy of living this full truth, that really I wasn't as deeply exposed to it as I would hope. And I think men in the

seminary, not probably every seminary, but I know our men that I just ordained for, and they're being well-formed in that richness of the Catholic. It is a glorious history. And yes, there's corruption. All the other is there, the negative part. But the ways we've figured out how to be human beings, guided by the Holy Spirit in the Church, is glorious. And if you read the lives of the saints, they're people who got it. We just celebrated St. Benedict, and he got it and shared it through the Benedictine rule with the culture of his time after experiencing really what our world is churning out, he experienced in the Roman Empire just before it fell. So I would say absolutely the problem is not knowing the truth, and that question frames it as poor catechesis. That's where we were. I'm hearing that the seminaries

are getting much, much better than they perhaps were in the 80s or 70s. What would your advice be to a young priest or seminarian who's watching right now? Keep studying. Keep learning. Pray, especially. Spend time in prayer before him, before the Lord in the Blessed Sacrament. He really calls us to that, and it makes sense.

If you really believe it's there, and if he's my boss and I work for him, to know him more and more deeply, and I would say for the seminarians and priests who may be listening, for anyone, but especially for all of us who are called to be shepherds in one way or another, to just embrace lifelong learning and to recognize we're talking about the infinite. So we'll never get to the end. But in that, really, I think that there are all sorts of, you know, the very human reality is part of every priest.

I mean, we're just human beings. We're just men. We're sinners. every priest. I mean, we're just human beings. We're just men who are sinners. And the tendency, especially in my lifetime, to look at being a priest as sort of a nine-to-five job. I mean, that was never explicitly said, but I think there's a tendency to look at it that was like, I've been to school. I don't need to go to that, you know, further study, or I don't need to keep reading. Absolutely, if we really recognize who we're following and the mystery that Jesus Christ is incarnate among us, then hopefully it opens our hearts and minds to say, I've got to keep

learning and praying. And the best way to learn, honestly, is to spend time with him in his real presence. I like that. So the priest can say, the boss is calling me to his office, by which he means I'm going to adoration. I like that. Elliot Brubaker, thanks for being a patron, Elliot. This is, I think, a timely and important question. He says, can His Excellency comment on what we as loyal sons of the Church are to do if the Latin Mass is no longer permitted? It seems as the laity we are at the mercy of our local pastor to ensure a respectful and reverent Mass, and many pastors don't care to emphasize reverence in the liturgy. This would especially be challenging if the Novus Ordo becomes the only licit mass. Well, I understand the concern that that question raises.

Sort of like we were talking about before, I think we have to be careful with— I mean, I've heard all sorts of conflicting messages. I've not heard anything official. I think right now the best thing to do is to pray that the Holy Father and all those who would make such decisions in Rome – there are – we have to acknowledge there are different forces there. There are people pulling in different directions. I think we especially have to pray for Pope Francis, who is at the center of all of that. Pray for his fidelity to what the Holy Spirit is calling for. I certainly believe that Samorum Pontificum,

the document that's in question, was a great gift to this time in the church that Pope Benedict promulgated that said we need ordinary and extraordinary and to really seek a balance in that. That's what I'm seeking in the diocese. Latin Mass, a lot of people, as I talk to people, people don't really, they're different language for it. Ordinary and extraordinary, English Mass or vernacular or Novus Ordo versus Latin Mass. Mass or vernacular or Novus Ordo versus Latin Mass. And again, Matt, I hopefully am redundant in this. It's about Jesus Christ. It's about a ritual that has been passed down through the ages and various forms and various languages, but the ritual brings us Jesus Christ

in his body and blood, soul and divinity. I would encourage the one who asked that question to keep focusing on him. And whatever decisions are made, we do need to pray that the Holy Spirit will guide those decisions. Maybe there's no change ultimately. Maybe it's not as drastic as we've heard. Maybe it is as drastic as we've heard. But focus on Jesus Christ. And if we reach a time where the Latin Mass or the Extraordinary Forum is no longer allowed, which I pray that we don't reach that,

because I think that would do a lot of harm. I agree. Just my opinion. Yeah, you're right. If we reach that point, don't give up. Don't abandon Christ. Don't walk away from his church. But challenge, yes, respectfully, but challenge, we've got to have more reverence.

And to me, that's across the board. And as I've said to people, there's, I do believe, the Latin mass in its form, it sort of propels you toward reverence. It's because it's foreign. It's different. It just puts you, it puts you reverence. It's because it's foreign. It's different. It just puts you a little off balance, which is a good thing. If you're approaching the throne of God to worship him, you need to be a little off balance. It needs to be something that you're not totally casually comfortable with.

So I would just encourage all of us as people who believe deeply in Jesus Christ and His Church to pray and to believe that we must seek Him more deeply in whatever form the liturgy is offered. And I certainly, if I have a vote, which I don't at that level, but I would urge, and I really believe that the Latin mass will be maintained in one way or another. I think what will happen, and I don't think it will happen actually, but if it were kind of canceled whenever, that's just a great way to fill up all the SSPX chapels. That's what would happen so long as sspx aren't you know schismatics which they're not but they're in an irregular state that's you'll just drive people into those chapels yeah yeah um i i wouldn't i

personally would go to a reverend nova sordo um but yeah i just it's i don't know how you feel about this john paul just it's so much more masculine and majestic than going to, you know, a Novus or many Novus automasters where best of intentions, it just feels like we're making stuff up. Feel free to correct me here. I mean that, right? I'm about to say something I haven't said before, and I'm open to being corrected and slapped a little. I used to go to a Byzantine church, a Catholic Byzantine church, right?

And Eastern Catholics would say, some of them at least, would identify as Orthodox in union with Rome. Sometimes I go to a Novus Ordo church and it feels like they're Protestants in union with Rome because it's such a sloppily done liturgy. People are bringing up hockey sticks as part of the offertory

because we offer everything to God. And I'm just like, this feels like a Protestant church, but we have to do those prayers that the church says we have to do, and they kind of get in the way of the thing we're doing here. Yeah, I agree. And I think that that's what we're all challenged to, again, go back to the quintessentially, the quintessential distinction between Protestant and Catholic through the ages has been belief in the real presence. It's not just a symbol. It's not just a nice reminder.

It's not just a gathering of God's people to be reminded of Jesus, but he's really there. And body and blood, soul and divinity, transubstantiation happens. The bread and wine become him. That is what I just keep harping on that because the hockey sticks, people are going to say, no, that's not part of it. Novus Ordo or Latin Mass, whatever form, you're not going to bring those human elements that aren't part of it.

It's about focusing on the sacrifice of Jesus Christ that sets us free from sin and death. So I agree with what you say, and I think that in many ways, because I know similar questions that I've had where people say, okay, Bishop, where do you fall on Second Vatican Council? It's like they need the litmus test, yeah. And I believe the Second Vatican Council was inspired by the Holy Spirit. But the way it was implemented, the way I would describe it, I mean, I'm no scholar of any of it, but I do believe in the truth of the church.

And if you look at it and the things that have happened to the liturgy especially, I think in many ways that when John XXIII opened the door or opened the window and let the aggiornamento take over the church, there was a lot of good there, but it also got hijacked by people with agendas. I mean, we see them today, and there were agendas even before I was born and long before that of people pushing against Orthodox faith and against the belief in the real presence and against even the real message of scriptures as bringing the truth.

So I think that we have to recognize that the Second Vatican Council and the liturgy is one of the key areas where I believe, if you read the documents, I mean, just one example, if you read the documents, it says Latin should be preserved. It doesn't say, no more Latin, get rid of Latin. Latin should be preserved. Gregorian chant should be given pride of place. Yeah, absolutely. And a lot of that because the agenda was against that.

It went in a different direction. against that, it went in a different direction. So I would encourage people to read the documents and to believe that they're inspired by the Holy Spirit working through John XXIII and then Paul VI, who had to take up, you know, the work of the council. You know, we were saying yesterday, thank God for Pope St. John Paul II, because he solidified a lot of things, including a catechism that he promulgated in the late 90s. Those are essential foundations for this time. Imagine, because I was a young priest without the catechism. Imagine if we didn't have the catechism that clearly answers some of these questions, and not new answers. I mean, the catechism beautifully goes back to Scripture,

and to the early church fathers, and to council documents through the ages, including the Council of Trent and all the different councils. I mean, Council of Nicaea, all of them, and the Catechism is a treasure trove of what we believe, the deposit of faith. And some people find it not easy to read. It's not really meant to be just read by – I mean, it certainly can be, but if you read it just as a dad or a mom and a family, you know, and there are some great instruments for reading it in a way that's more understandable. It's very dense. I mean, short paragraphs can give you enough to really ponder

for hours, but I'm grateful for that solid truth that we have. Yeah, me too, because the sort of—well, let's not get into it. I was going to say, well, let's get into it. The sort of wordsmithing of people like Father James Martin, who I don't think explicitly contradict the faith, but seem to speak in a way that lead those who are questioning the Church's teachings on homosexuality. What would we do? Dr. Darrell Bock And certainly people gravitate to him that

feel supported and living what the Catechism says is a sinful lifestyle. What I've said, and I'll say right here again, there are – Father Martin and others have argued the word disordered, oh, that needs to be changed in the catechism. What I would say is it needs to be included even more to recognize that, I mean, you are married to a beautiful wife. You have four children. Is that correct? Marriage is living out the sexual relationship.

It's a very narrow path. It's sort of the eye of the needle. It's for a man and a woman only, committed for life, open to children. Those qualities are what marriage is. Anything else, any other expression of our sexuality, which happens rampantly and in ways that probably neither of us have even thought of in the world today, they're disordered. And I take Father James Martin's point that, oh, you pick on the gay couple, but you'll allow the heterosexual couple to just shack

up and no problem. Absolutely. but the answer isn't tendency to do that is wrong yeah it's as disordered any of those expressions of sexuality for me as a single man there there are lots of ways that i can well but virtually anyway yeah to actually have an active sexual life is immoral for me. It's disordered. I mean, and that's tough, believe me. And I've struggled with living up to that. But that's what celibacy is. And it, I mean, we could talk for ages, I guess, because the whole breakdown of priestly celibacy is the lack of emphasis that it's about chastity. It's not just about, oh, you can't get married. It's about you remain chaste and unengaged in sexual activity of any kind. And that's a challenge for a man or a woman in the world today.

But I think what I would love to see is a change in the Catechism. I don't think we need to change it, but if it's going to change, disordered should be inserted for fornication is disordered. Masturbation is disordered. Anything that is sexual expression outside a man and woman committed for life open to children. Contraceptive intercourse for a man and woman married is disordered. I think we've got to be clear about where the disorders are because we're living in a time when the disorder is carrying the day. Probably if you just, only God knows, but if you had the ability to just do one of these polls of all of humanity and say, is your sexual expression in your life, is it ordered

or disordered? I think for most of the planet across the world, it would be disordered at this time, in all kinds of different ways. I mean, but we've got to hear the truth that sets us free. I mean, as a single man and a celibate man for most of my life, yeah, there are challenges there. I think, to be honest, for most of us, we're going to— It may not be the biggest challenge

in this person's life or that, but it is a challenge to really genuinely live a chaste life. That's why St. Joseph is so important for men in this year of St. Joseph, because he models for us in a supernatural way. Only the grace of God could allow you to do what St. Joseph did. Especially being married to the most beautiful woman who ever lived. Remaining chaste. Only the grace of God could allow you to do what St. Joseph did. Especially being married to the most beautiful woman who ever lived. Yeah, but we've got to really embrace that truth because anything else is ultimately destructive and harmful.

The other thing, of course, is like disordered is a teleological philosophical term. It sounds disparaging, but the answer isn't we'll throw it out because we no longer understand philosophical term. It sounds disparaging, but the answer isn't we'll throw it out because we no longer understand philosophical terms. Surely the answer is, well, let's educate people, and as you say, use the term more. Yeah, but the point being, thank God for this gift of the catechism, that we can actually rebuke others and have ourselves be rebuked as we're corrected by what the church has always taught. Okay, here's a bit of a pushback on you from James Fee. He says, While I appreciate bishops who aren't afraid to engage the culture

and engage with brother bishops, is it really proper for a bishop to engage another bishop, and I don't know if you've done this, on a matter of internal diocesan governance, for example, Father Altman and La Crosse? Do you want to address that? Sure. I've really tried to be cautious there. I don't know the specific situation, and I've tried to be clear about that. But as I've said at other times,

when it's a question of the truth being shared, I think we have to be careful. And I don't want to pass judgment on another bishop. I have no authority to do that, no right to do that. But I know that the popular world is seeing Father Altman as speaking truth, and he's being shut down. I would encourage the bishop there that I can't claim to know well, and I know all bishops have to deal with their own situation. I think more clarity of what's going on would be helpful to his people in the diocese and to the reality of the church today.

But I do want to be respectful of other bishops, but I've got to, I feel like, speak up when truth is being spoken, and it looks like, maybe I'm totally wrong. I'm glad to be corrected. But if when Father Altman speaks of the sanctity of life and the sanctity of marriage and that it's disordered for a man and two men or two women to be married, some of those basic teachings are what he's known for. Yes, he's probably said some things that are maybe outlandish, that are his opinions, that I would totally disagree with. I really, I don't really follow Father Altman, but I do try to follow the truth. And honestly, when it comes to the sanctity of life,

that's what prompted me originally to say anything regarding this priest that I've never met. But he was speaking about that we cannot allow ourselves to just adopt a culture openly that is about destroying unborn life. I'll die on that hill. I've told people that. I feel the need for all of us who believe that that life is sacred from conception to natural death. We've got to speak for those children that are slaughtered before they ever get a voice. They never get to enter into this human conversation. They never get a voice. And to

blatantly support that and shout down anybody who says that life is sacred, I'm going to speak up. And if that is something that the culture ultimately says, we're going to eliminate you because you speak up at that, say, okay, I'm willing to die on that hill because I, again, going back to the salvation of my own soul, I think we've got to speak for those most vulnerable innocents. And what is frustrating to me is, you know, and I've gotten pushback from other bishops saying, oh, Joe, you're too caught up in the sanctity of the life of the unborn. What about this issue and that issue and the other issue?

You don't have any issues if you're dead in the womb. I mean, you're dead at the start before you ever worry about what country you live in or whether you're poor or whether you get a job or what, anything. You don't have to worry about any of it. So to me, it is as basic as that. And when it comes down to those issues, I hope to keep speaking up because I feel a moral compulsion to speak up for the unborn. Thanks. Eden Mazur says, should priests always obey their bishop even if the bishop is in the wrong? Padre Pio's restrictions always come to my mind.

Padre Pio's restrictions always come to my mind. Well, I think obedience, I mean, in Padre Pio, St. Faustina, a number of the saints are great models of obedience, as St. Joseph is. And I think we have to pay a lot of attention when it's between my decision and how do I live, and each of us ultimately, that's what it comes down to, I think we have to pay a lot of attention to obedience. For a priest, for a bishop, obedient to the church, and obedient to the Petrine office. I mean, I think obedience is a very important element of how we live faithfully. Of course, you know, you can't be, I mean, people would argue obedience in the Nazi era. Well, I was just being obedient to my superiors. So I think that illustrates there's a time,

and certainly we're not claiming that kind of situation with any authority structure at this point, but I think those are the kinds of questions you have to ask. And what the sad Nazi experience reminds us of is there can be a limit to obedience. And you can't just say, well, I was being obedient to what I was told by my superiors. I was just following orders. If you're ordered to do something you know is immoral, then that's where obedience has to stop. But most of the time in the church and even in society, obedience falls in a different place. And I guess simply I would say if when push comes to shove, to be obedient is probably the virtuous path, but we can't use that as a free ticket and just say, well, I'm being

obedient. We've got to ultimately be obedient to Jesus Christ and to truth that he's revealed. Darrell Bock Here's a question around that issue. This is from Deacon Paul Lunsford. Deacon, would Bishop Strickland address the appropriate level of parishioner docility to their bishop and to bishops in general? I am often taken aback by the arrogance of lay opinion. Well, that goes back to the obedience also. I think it should always be respectful

because being respectful to Christ and the bishop and the priest represents, you know, that ultimately it all traces back to Christ. I guess I would put it that way. And I think, certainly, we can get overwrought emotionally, and people can get caught up in things and become really disobedient and disrespectful. And I think obedience and respect, I mean, as the priests in my diocese, when you ordain them, they promise respect and obedience. It goes together. And I think we all, in Christ, we have to pay attention to that.

We have to be very cautious. But, you know, there are lines that get crossed where, I mean, if you're being told to do something you know is flat-out wrong, then you can't argue obedience to that. But it's hard to do that hypothetically. You've really got to deal with it in the concrete reality of that moment. All right, we'll just take a couple more questions, if that's okay. Okay, so we have a priest here who's asking an anonymous question, but I think it's probably illustrative of what many priests are feeling. He says,

As a priest, I can say that the vast majority of us have a deep love and respect for the Episcopacy, and we want to serve. We want to stand with our shepherds and bring the light and the love of the gospel into this world, but it is discouraging to see a good number of our spiritual fathers and co-workers are supposedly forgetting or failing to give voice to what the gospel and Christ teach. In the bishop's opinion, what can priests do to both love and support the bishop beyond the basics of priestly service and obedience? What would make a bishop stop and say, this priest loves our Lord, his church, and me?

A lot of priests are in maintenance mode because of the lack of vision from their spiritual fathers. What can we do to change that? Well, if I had those answers, but I will make a couple of attempts. If I had those answers. But I will make a couple of attempts. For one thing, speaking very sincerely to that priest, any other priests that have similar questions,

treat your bishop as a fellow disciple. And like the scriptures say, if he's asking you to do something in obedience that you really have problems with, speak to him one-on-one, respectfully, and share without making headlines or without getting anyone else involved. Just share your concerns. Hopefully, I mean, as the scriptures illustrate, in my experience, because I've had conflicts with priests, I make mistakes, and we have miscommunications sometimes, and we try to work toward a better understanding. So that would be the first thing, to keep it between you and your bishop, and just talk to him as a fellow disciple. Yes, he's a bishop, but he's just a man.

We're all imperfect. We all are only dealing with whatever information we've been given to respectfully share a different point of view and to do it one-on-one, whether with a letter or however. I mean, ideally face-to-face, but I know sometimes in situations. But at least to keep it between you and your bishop. And to keep it there unless you just see that, I mean, if you see the need to escalate it, I mean, that takes a lot more prayer and a lot more care.

But I would say start with talking to your bishop and helping him understand where you're coming from, that you do love Christ, you do love his church, you do respect and love him on that level as a bishop of Christ. I mean, he's a successor to the apostles. And I think that that's a good way to look at it as well. Imagine us being thrust into the moment where Peter is denying Christ. You know, and most of the disciples were AWOL. I mean, they were gone too. I mean, they weren't being confronted. But I mean, I guess somebody was there to hear the questions and Peter's answer we don't have a lot of detail there

but just putting ourselves in that moment you can't support Peter in denying Christ but you can still out of respect for Peter you can say he's one of the apostles you can say Peter

let's love the Lord. Let's be stronger, but still out of respect. I don't know if that captures what you're saying. And you probably get that. I'm sure you've had this experience where priests come to you and they bring things up. Oh, yeah. There's probably a difference between a priest who you can tell loves you and is bringing something up humbly. You're probably a lot more open to it, too.

I've really benefited from priests being willing to say, Bishop, do you realize, because sometimes you just don't know how you're being heard, or the way this message is being received, or the backstory that maybe a given priest is hurt by this that you didn't intend as bishop, but because of something they've dealt with. I mean, there are all those complexities of human relationship, and so that's why I would say start with that basic Son of God to Son of God relationship and try to go from there. And I think a lot of times it'll work out so that you come to a better understanding, and that bishop is able to grow as I've been able to learn and develop and get a different understanding, whether it's talking about the liturgy,

which can be very incendiary between a priest and a bishop, or whatever the topic is, if you can come to a better understanding. I mean, I can say that there are priests in my diocese that I feel very close to that originally the relationship started sort of fractured. And I think that happens in families as you grow and you learn. So that would be my advice is to remember he's just a man. He's got a huge responsibility. to remember he's just a man, he's got a huge responsibility, try to help him understand you and you understand him,

and, you know, see where that goes. All right, final question. What non-churchy things do you do for leisure, and how important is it that bishops and priests and, goodness, even laity, take the time for leisure? Well, I think it is very important. take the time for leisure? Well, I think it is very important. I have to admit, and lately probably that's, you know, kind of a place where the leisure is sort of, it's like,

well, I'll get to that when I get a chance. I love, I was told a long time ago, have something you're reading that isn't churchy, that's just a novel. I mean, something, you know, good, but something, you know, and I've always, I read not too long ago, a book on the history of salt, which I love that kind of thing, just sort of quirky. I mean, I learned a lot with the history of salt, but I love to read things like that. I love music. I love, I try to exercise, and that takes time. So it's, you probably, if I have a hobby now, it's trying

to stay in decent shape because it's a challenge as a bishop and traveling and just with the schedule to get any decent exercise. But I think it is important. I used to have the hobby of stained glass. I kind of gave that up because I just didn't have the time anymore. But I think we were always encouraged to have a hobby. It is important. I'm sort of not getting the highest marks on hobbies right now. But I'm sure as a bishop, you would say to your priests, please take your day off, and for good reason. I do encourage that because as our first bishop, Bishop Charles Herzig in the diocese said, he would say, take your day off, the people deserve it.

And there's wisdom there because if you get too stressed and you're just at the grindstone all the time and always working, and very often, I mean, in my experience, what priests are busy doing if they're not taking their day off, it's not like they're on a day of retreat all the time, but they're doing this managerial stuff that really can suck the life out of you. So I think the bishop was wise to say the people deserve a priest who takes some leisure time, gets a time to decompress, hopefully prays a lot, but also just relaxes and enjoys life. Fantastic. Well, Your Excellency, thank you so kindly for taking the time out to be on the show. Thanks, Matt. Enjoyed it.

Thank you. All right right that's it beautiful សូវាប់ពីបានប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្� ༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱༱� សូវាប់ពីបានប់ពីបានប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពីប់ពី Bye.