Pints With Aquinas - Wellness, Prayer, Nutrition, and Health Culture w/ Jackie Mulligan

Episode Date: May 1, 2024

Reform was founded and started by Jackie. After years of tireless striving, stress, and compromised health as a result of her lifestyle, Jackie found her identity, healing, and wholeness in God. She found a more simple way; a way centered in faith, wellness, and freedom. Now, she is devoted to helping others find the same. Combining her passions of wellness, faith, and education, Jackie works with clients locally and around the world. Along the way, she discovered that one of her greatest passions was helping others build stronger connections to themselves, their health, and their faith through wellness at every level: physical, emotional and spiritual.   Show Sponsors: https://strive21.com/matt https://hallow.com/mattfradd https://www.reformwellness.co/  

Monsignor James Petriche, president of the University of Mary. He's incredible. Is he? I'm sure he is. His talk at Seek, Matt, was, it was mic drop performance. It was actually, it was, it was that. It was a performance. It was like he took a beautiful Christmas song at the start and he went really real

about the state of the world and what it's like to suffer and to be a student in the world right now. And he just tied it together with the truth and brought so much hope and it was incredible. You have to watch it. When you say Christmas song, do you mean he actually started with a Christmas song? He did. He didn't sing, but he did share the lyrics.

All right. I'll have to look it up because we were saying this fella who I haven't heard of, but I'm excited to have heard of and sister Mary Ann? No, Mary Grace. I love that woman. She's amazing. I was sitting up in the balcony and she started speaking and I was just having a moment with our Lord crying. I text the guy who's handling speaking and I was just having a moment with our Lord crying I text the guy who's handling me and I'm like not That sounded bad. No one handled me I texted the fella who was in charge of getting me from point A to B and I said I need to meet this woman now

Mmm, because she's Aussie. Of course this I was gonna say it fell off So what was he talking about and there was such a mic mic drop thing? Well, he's very Profound in his delivery in that he's very simple. He just stood in the center of the stage. He had no notes. He was not afraid to take long pauses. And he just sort of spoke very candidly that it's OK to be sad and anxious in a sad and anxious

world and that we don't have to force joy, but that there is hope. And also that we should just be aware of the current state of the world right now and not sort of power through. It was really beautiful. And when I say performance, I mean that you could feel how much prayer was behind it and you can feel the truth and the gravity of His words and the way that He shared them. It's profound. And so this gets to your ministry, right? He's speaking your language, right?

Basically, yeah. Tell people, just give us a quick overview of your ministry. I know we want to talk about it more, but for those who aren't aware. Sure, yeah. So Reform Wellness is a Christ-centered wellness practice. We look at the health of the whole person. So we look at body and soul together. And we have nine pillars that we use as a way to really define health, the main one being faith at the center of everything. And so we work with priests and religious and laity from all over the world, thanks be to God. Am I right in thinking you helped develop, or you started this, but developed it with

the fries of the renewal, or did I make that up? No, you didn't make it up. So yeah, I founded Reform in, I think it was an ongoing process, so it's hard for me to always peg down the year. But officially in 2017 when I was back in New York. So, but when it was first starting in my heart, it was in California, and that was in 2015 and 2016. But when I returned to New York, which is where I'm from, as soon as I took the leap of faith to say, OK, I'm going to pursue the Lord at the center of not only say, okay, I'm gonna pursue the Lord at the center

of not only my life, but of this ministry that is sort of forming in my heart. I met Father Innocent. He was hearing confessions at a youth retreat, and I was there to volunteer, and nobody was at confession during lunch, and so I thought opportune time to receive the sacrament. to volunteer and nobody was at confession during lunch. And so I thought opportune time to receive the sacrament.

And so I sat with him and I had one of the most amazing confessions of my life. And as I was standing up, he was like, do you have a business card? It was just perfect. I don't know how many people could ask that after confession. Yeah, I was like. Are you sure? No, it was wonderful. But he was really pivotal in a lot of my steps in developing reform.

And I think that St. Francis has sort of been woven in there, Matt, for a long time. But Father Innocent really continued to give me permission to say, priests, priests need this, religious need this, everybody needs this, like, this isn't just for laity. And at the time, I was going through a huge reversion of heart conversion. And so I was doing like just like a ton of spiritual work.

And I kept meeting priests and religious, like Father Innocent, who were on fire in their soul, but they had some physical things that needed tending to. And it was like these confirmations over and over again that we're both and. We are not bodies without souls or vice versa. And that everybody needs to tend to both to truly be well. And so that was the start of our work together. He had a tremendous healing and some one-on-one consulting work that we did together. And then I started working with the missionaries, then formation with the postulants. And then I have lost count at this point of how many friars we've journeyed with to date.

That's beautiful. Somebody said that when the world drop, no, when the church drops something, the world picks it up. I think that may have been Fulton Sheen or something, but you know, the world gets rid of the rosaries and now everybody's wearing them as necklaces or the world gets rid of incense and now we're all doing that. And we get rid of kind of meditation, recollection

and now mindfulness is this big thing in the culture. And so consequently, Catholics can sometimes view as suspicious what they don Catholics can sometimes view as suspicious what they don't need to view as suspicious. And so like language like wellness and self-care, people want to know, well, how is that not just like narcissism or selfishness? And I know it's not, but do you get that? Yeah, I think it's actually prudent to do your homework and to question that and ask like, what is the difference between this and new age, if you will. And I think, unfortunately, the world

has kind of put this negative connotation on self care and in general, self care has been glorified in a way and really taken to an extreme. And I think there's a degree in which you, like too much is too much if that's your only focus or the way that you look, the vanity kind of thing wins. But I do think it's important for people to understand that it is our duty to steward the health of our whole person and that we are here with the capacity to love and serve the Lord.

And I think that we want to live out that capacity. I think everybody's capacity is different based on lots of factors, health history, genetics, lifestyle, et cetera. And I think that one of the questions we often ask is, what is your current capacity? What is the current state of your body and your soul?

And that kind of allows you to see, like, how much focus you need to put on your well-being. But the truth is, Matt, there's never going to be a day ever where we don't have to tend to the well-being of our whole person. We don't get, like, a day off. We don't get to grow complacent. Not that it's a negative view in that way,

but in the sense that it's a gift to be able to take care of your whole person. And if you think about even your role as a husband and a father, you want high capacity to be able to serve not only physically, but also spiritually and mentally, emotionally. I'm thinking of Cameron, as I'm even saying this,

of like, you know, her capacity while being sick was probably really low. So she had to tend to it more than the average person who was feeling healthy. So in that way, I think it's okay to make it a focus so that you're doing it for a good. But there are things that we stay far away from, and I think it's important to note, we don't promote yoga or anything that points to anything outside of the Lord.

And I think it's important to do your homework. A priest once told me, if you're questioning it, don't. Don't do it. Just pray about it, wait, and do your homework. But ultimately, functional health, naturopathic medicine, we're creating an environment in the body for it to heal as it's intended to. And that's through mostly lifestyle.

It can be through other modalities. But our bodies are amazing and designed to heal in a particular way. I think it would be helpful if we began with your story. I know that that's what led into this beautiful ministry you've created. So yeah, how far back do you want to go? Well, that's up to you. No, I think I'll start with when this was first forming in my own heart when I was living in California. I, well, I'll start with just a little bit of background. So I am from New York.

I have a big family. Actually, Deacon Mike on the way here, he said that, he quoted Chester's then. He said, a big family on the way here, he said that he quoted Chesterton. He said, a big family is a way of kind of getting introduced to the whole world. And I love that because there's there's a little bit of everybody. So I have four, four sisters and two brothers and just always recognized myself in a role of like the helper. I loved it like it was just the best I was like kind of the the the nurture I loved I loved being able to be a part of something and it always felt like a joy to have people around like really amazing

community always and family was always just so important to me as as was faith and with Irish Italian parents, they really embedded that into our hearts. And so I always knew that there was this purpose in the world, but that it always came back to a specific route within the family. And so when I first started, sort of my journey,

I would say to reform, it was interesting because I have a background in business. I have a background in education. I taught for a while and I really took this huge leap of faith. I was a tenured teacher living right near my family, had like a really comfortable lifestyle on Long Island. And I just had this

innate sense and I didn't know at the time what it really was. I think now it was the the first movements of my heart with the Lord. It was time to change something. Like I was I remember looking around my classroom mat and going I can't be here forever. Like there's there's a different audience. There's a different set of people I can teach, and it's not here. And it was a little bit conflicting because I loved my students. My heart really came alive in the classroom.

And so many steps happened that I landed in San Diego, but ultimately my brother was moving out there. And it was one of these like, I'm driving out in two weeks, do you wanna come? And so I quit my job and I went out there. At this point, do you have faith, a living faith? I had the faith in that I kept unknowingly Jesus in a box, in the sense that I went to Mass, I prayed.

I prayed to him when things were hard. I had a moral compass overall, but I didn't really know what to do with my relationship with him outside of of that. And I was a well-formed Catholic in a lot of senses. And so when I was out there, it was like my first time really being away from family. I went to college on Long Island, studied my master's on Long Island. So there was it was like

my first time really away outside of some study abroad. And it was really such a gift because it was like Jackie me Jackie. But really, it was, meet Jesus. And it was incredible because it was actually watching one of my oldest sisters go through a really hard situation. In California or in New York? She was in New York. And because I was away, I couldn't be the helper. I couldn't go and take care of the kids or her.

And that it was too much. Like I thought, okay, I need to go and take care of the kids or her. And Matt, it was too much. Like I thought, okay, I mean, I need to go back. Like I need to be with her. But my sister chose immediately when this particular situation happened to turn to the Lord. And she was like, the Lord is my medicine. He's gonna get me through this.

And I watched the most horrific situation turn into the most incredible opportunity. Like it was every time I went home to visit her, she was full of hope. She was full of peace, even though there was so many unknowns. And but she was just like, this isn't how the story ends. And so every time I go back to California, I just started making more and more changes and sort of mirroring what I was witnessing. And in this season, I sort of just started over

this amazing new life. And in a way, it was like, I'm a very capable person, as many people are. And I had this belief that because I was capable of a lot of things, I had to do all of them. So it was like, striver, top of my class, had a new job, climbed to the top of the business, studied, did as well as you could.

Are you teaching in California or you got some other business? No, I started working for a supplement company called Puri. It's a Scandinavian brand. And I ended up running national sales for them in a very short time, at the same time of studying holistic nutrition. And I did CrossFit, I lived near the beach,

I had really great friends and relationships. And I kind of had what I thought like the life. Things were going well on paper. But there was this hunger within me that even though I thought I kind of checked all the boxes, I had at that point several master's degrees. And I just sort of thought I did what I was supposed to do. And I was like, wow, I'm like, something.

I was looking for another degree or like another move. And I'm like, hmm, something is not right. And so inspired by my sister's beautiful faith in a situation that kind of rocked my family and really forced us all to sort of just turn to the Lord in a very real way. I started to, I made a commitment through my sister's invitation

to make a holy hour every day in Lent. And I thought that- How did she get you on board? She sort of like saw me going to pray a little bit more. And I was asking her a lot of questions and I had gone on a retreat with her. It was a silent retreat and things were happening in my, in my heart. And I sort of thought, thought like, wow, that seems like a lot, but I'll do it. And then that turned into daily mass. And then one hour a day turned into two hours a day turned into I don't want to leave here

turned into I'm just would I like planted it there. I just would you get up in the morning before work or after work? Yeah. So I had a pretty I had a pretty flexible schedule at this point because I had just started my own practice. And so I finished, um, your own practice for health. So with consulting, so I finished my certification for health consulting, and I had just made a decision to pivot away from, um, after like five or so years, um, with this Scandinavian company, which I love.

And I was like, I think I'm gonna start consulting. And there was an amazing clientele. I got to work with athletes and moms and CEOs, just like a wide array of people. And because of that, I had flexibility. So I'd go to morning mass, and then I would have some time in adoration, and then I would go back in, let's say, the late afternoon,

and then always in the evening. And I remember at this time, people were continuing to renew their contracts with me. And so I was consulting a bit on the side, even when I was working full full time as strivers do. And I remember thinking why are these people renewing their contracts with me? Like, why do they need me still? Like they should be able to do what they need to on their own. And I think what they were really hungry for was what I was really hungry for. And that was for the Lord. Like you can eat as healthy as you want,

and there's always a way to eat healthier. You can lift as heavy as you can, and there's always a way to get stronger. You can be as, you can manage stress, and you're still sometimes unable to get to the max, you know, productivity. And so I just invited people to consider what I was doing, and that was to pray more. And that felt kind of crazy.

You know, I was reading Aquinas, I think it's his commentary on the Beatitudes where he talks about how physical goods, the goods of the body cannot make us happy. Because he uses an analogy like a ship is not meant to just stay pristine, it's meant to go out in the ocean, and we weren't meant just to have great bodies, we're really fit, we sleep well, and it's like that's just to maintain you in order to then do the next thing. Exactly, exactly. Yeah, and so I reached out to my sister when this was like things were really moving in my sister, when this was like, things were really moving in my heart. And I said, I think, I think there's something wrong with me. I can't leave. I can't leave prayer like something's happening and I, I don't, I can't explain it. And she just sort of like exactly what you just said, like, ah, good.

This is, you're right where you need to be. And so I spoke to Father Barry Bram, a very close priest and friend of mine. And he was in California. So I was in California, but I spoke to him on the phone. I knew him from Long Island. And he said to me, stay as long as you need. In adoration, adoration, like within reason. Right. And so I was like, OK, I have I can just plant it.

And basically helped me to see that there's something real happening here. Don't run from it. That's really neat. I think a lot of people would have this experience if they had a spiritual director kind of guiding them, but you were kind of found, you just had this hunger for the Eucharist

and you didn't even really know what was happening. I didn't, it was overwhelming in a real way. And it was just, I mean, I was thinking about this on the plane here. I think there were some of the best days of my life. You know, I had no idea where I was going, what I was doing, what was happening in my heart. Reform wasn't even a thought in my mind.

It was definitely in the Lord's mind. And I just realized like, okay, I actually thought this whole time that I was healthy. And I think like the most peaceful and grounded I feel is right now when I'm in your presence. And it doesn't matter. All the other things, the striving, the crossFit, the nutrition, you know, just anything else I ever thought would define my health. Like those were important, but the most important thing was knowing who I was and knowing who the Lord was.

And so I very slowly started living this out in a way that trickled into- How do people receive it? Sorry to cut you off. How do people receive it when you would tell them to pray? And how would you do that? So one of my best friends is from California and she, I told her, she was helping me write my website and I told her, I'd like to say like it's Christ centered or faith based,

like I'm not really sure. And also Matt realized that this is the start of my conversion. And so I felt, I had these like Mary Magdalene, imposter syndrome sort of moments of like, who am I to do this? And I kept on saying to the Lord in prayer, like pick somebody else,

because I think this is a really great idea, but like I'm not worthy, I'm still on my own journey. Like I don't feel equipped to talk about you when I'm still worthy. I'm still on my own journey. Like I don't, I don't feel equipped to talk about you when I'm still getting to know you in a way that I didn't even know was possible. And so my friend was like, and she's a really faithful, incredible woman. And she's like, I don't, you know,

I don't know how popular this is gonna be like in San Diego. Like I think it's just part of who you are, but maybe you don't have to say it. And I just knew like, no, I need to say it. Like I need to say it. And so I realized that to be well, I needed the Lord. And if other people wanted to truly be well, that they at least needed to be open to prayer. Will these people who are, do you have an office they're coming into to consult about

this? So some people would come online, some people would come to an office space that I had. So were you telling them to pray just because or were they being vulnerable with you and sharing stuff that was going on in their life that you thought they needed prayer? Some people were close enough where we could talk about a particular situation. There's a fine line sometimes though in consulting where it's like, I'm not a therapist. So, you know, but I did, so there would be some situations where I would say,

you might consider praying about that. It was always gentle. It was always like an invitation. But then there were other people, I'll never forget this. There was a CEO I worked with at a pretty big company and he was just like on his forehead, like, I'm an atheist, like, can you even say it all the time? And I don't really know what started this conversation

in this realm in one of our consulting meetings, but he was basically like, he was asking me something about his nutrition. We had been working together for like two years. And I was like, I can't talk about nutrition with you anymore. Like this is not about what you're eating. We need to like look outside the box. Was he unwell? No, he was fine. It was just sort of like, let's do another thing. Sort of like I've reached my goals, but we can be even healthier. There's just like another marker that we can go, you know, now let's talk about macros and body composition.

And that was sort of like, maybe what I would do with some athletes that I was working with, but it was just, it never kept me motivated. It was always, I thought it was the focus was great for athletes, but for a purpose, right? But I don't know that I thought it was great for, for solely aesthetic reasons.

I kind of knew, I don't know if this is the only focus. I think there can be definitely good attention to it. Anyway, the point is that the nutrition was really merely a distraction for something else you needed to work on. And I think that's what we see in the world all the time, is that something else becomes your idol work on. And I think that's what we see in the world all the time, is that, you know, something else becomes your idol. And that could be health, and it could be a good thing that's hidden.

And so I just said to him, like, would you ever consider praying? And he like kind of scoffed. And then he said, I think that's what I trust about you, is that I know before you come here, you're praying. I know that like what you're saying is true. How did he know that? He knew you well enough that you were Catholic. I think he just got a sense of this confidence in the Lord.

Like it wasn't me that he was trusting. I think he was trusting the direction I was giving him even about health in general, but that was, he knew it was coming from, from the right place. Um, anyway, it was, uh, it was a short part of the conversation, but, uh, a few years later, Matt, after I lived in New York, he wrote to me and he converted to Catholicism and it wasn't, but it wasn't like on the spot. It was, it was just these like little, little steps.

So once you told him he should pray and he appreciated it, did he then ask any follow-ups? No. Well, he said, what do you do? And at that point I was like, well, I don't know if this is going to sound. And I told him I went to daily mass and he was like, why? You don't have to. And I was like, I know I want to. You don't have to work out daily either.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so I think, I mean, he definitely sat back and was like, it was weird. Was he Catholic? I know he was an atheist, but he hadn't ever received any of this. Yeah, it's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Because he could have went in any direction. Yes. Yeah. He wrote to you after he wrote to me, he'll celebrate to me like, like a once a year and up to me on family. But but now, like, he'll go to holy hours. He knows the Eucharistic Lord in adoration.

It's just amazing. Before your sister told you, you might consider spending an hour before the Blessed Sacrament every day in Lent, did you have any kind of crisis moment that you were like, no? No, the crisis moment was really her life, kind of falling apart.

And it was just a very, I don't even wanna say falling apart, because I think it like kind of falling apart. And it was just a very, I don't even want to say falling apart because I think it really kind of fell together. But she had a really difficult situation within her marriage outside of her control. And my nieces and nephews were young and like from six down to like one years old, there's four of them.

And she was just carrying a really heavy cross. And it was my witness of her that was really just awe-inspiring. And the strength it gave her and the freedom it gave her and the courage it gave her, it was just, it was like, well, here I am living in shiny San Diego with the best food and the best nature and all this worldly freedom with my own schedule. And she had the exact opposite and the world, you know, carrying so much on her own. But she had these virtues that I could not get in the world and I was after them.

So what was the Lord doing in your heart then? You said it was your conversion moment, even though you grew up Catholic. It was just a deeper conversion or what does that mean? Yeah, I think that I just had this profound desire to spend as much time in prayer as possible. And I didn't know that that was okay. Like I really didn't. I thought that there was, I thought, oh, well, I'm definitely called to religious life then because I don't think people pray this much. And also I just started realizing

that there were other parts of my life that the Lord actually, He wanted to be a part of every part of my life and I didn't this is what I was speaking earlier like I didn't know what to do with him I was like how do you invite the Lord to your meals how do you invite him to your relationships the way you move your body your body image I mean ever literally everything and so as I was in these holy hours and praying, I was inviting him into all the areas of my life.

And he was just like knocking walls down, going to the roots of my, the healing that needed to happen. And it was like, he was weeding my garden in a way. And I was like, wow, ouch, this is hard, but I want it all. I want it all. I want it all. And I could not believe that I ever looked at my day without the lens of Christ. I can't believe, I like think honestly, I reflect and think like, how did I like plan my day? Or, you know, what was the compass of my life at prior to this moment, even when I was practicing the faith?

He just took over. So when did you move back to New York? Two years later. I resisted for a year. I knew I was meant to go back, but I thought maybe I could pull it off and stay and do what he was asking me to do in California But he made it pretty clear that it was it was back to New York Which is not a negative thing in any way. I just thought that but I just thought like well, I'm in like

The perfect place for for health like even though I'm gonna stay in in in this wellness realm and with the faith component Like there's great Catholics here, but like this is perfect, this is the perfect place. But that's really when the floodgates opened, is when I gave my full yes. Not only for him to be central in reform, which I didn't know was reform at the time, like I said, like, okay, Lord, I'll bring you into the center of my work. And then it was like, okay, yeah, but I also want the center of your life. So in a really beautiful and gentle way.

So those two years really, Matt, like turned me right side up. So was it your confession with this priest and him wanting a business card that helped start whatever this thing was? I think that it was a combination. Like I definitely knew when I got back to New York that I wanted to focus on the whole person.

I knew that I wanted to define health publicly, body and soul. It is funny how when you see people over-focus on a particular dimension of their life that they get weird. So if someone's all about the spiritual but not terribly concerned about their appearance or what they eat or how they move, they're kind of weird. Same thing with people who are always at the gym and they don't seem to have beautiful relationships or a prayer life. But it sounds like you're trying to integrate these things.

Yeah, I knew at the time when I was in California, I'd already lived like a very healthy lifestyle. Then I was studying it, I was living it out. I was just sort of like really immersed in the health world for the whole time I was in California. But I also understood like, this isn't the Lord. Even before I had my reversion, I was like, this is like people's whole lives is like the path to health. And it sort of felt, you know, people say like

that CrossFit can be cultish. Like it sometimes did feel that way when it was like the main focus. I am a fan of lifting. I don't want to make that sound, but I would say that- Yeah, people can get weird with anything. Yeah, like it makes it like an idol in a certain sense. But what's funny is a lot of people are lonely

and they don't have close families or close communities and CrossFit fills that void. Yeah, it does. And I did CrossFit for a while and I love the people I did it with and it was beautiful to have that kind of routine, meeting these people every other day and you make beautiful friendships.

But if that's your friendship base, it feels like you should probably have friends outside of that. Right, exactly. And I think that I like innately knew this. And so when I came back to New York, I knew that that I wanted to pursue this just more in depth. And I think my I think my family and they were so supportive, like they welcomed me with open arms when I came when I came home. I think they were sort of like, what are you doing now? And like, and

not that it was sort of like, okay, you have several degrees, you're really capable, like, you have several degrees, you're really capable, like you're just starting this practice. Like what does this look like? There's a lot of trust, but also it was like, I was also navigating my own heart of like, I wanted to do it confidently, I wanted to do it right. And things with the Lord take sometimes longer

than we want and sometimes they happen really fast. And I've experienced both in reform, like where things were happening at a speed that I couldn't keep up with. And then other times where it was like a season of waiting. And I think that was what was happening in California. It was like waiting. And I think he was waiting on me also.

But then when I got to New York, it was like the floodgates opened. And so I was living close by to my family, which was the greatest gift. And I was just constantly in New York City with everything that was possibly going on. The CFRs, the Sisters of Life, it was just such a great community.

And I remember the first time I went to St. Patrick's Cathedral for a young adult mass, I walked in and there's like 500 young adults at this mass. And I was just like, oh my gosh, I didn't even know that there were like this many faithful Catholics in the city. So yeah, I just kept on meeting people that were reminding me of this, this truth I knew that was that nobody is disqualified from holiness. And I thought I disqualified myself. I thought, well, I'm not religious and, or a consecrated religious. And so therefore, like, I can't pray this much.

Like I totally disqualified myself from that call. And, and I kept meeting then on the opposite end of the spectrum, priests and religious who like disqualified themselves from taking care of their physical health. And so I just, through the grace of God, truly, Matt, he kept on putting people in my path that would remind me of the need of reform. What are these different things here?

Physical, emotional, what else? Like spiritual, what else? So do you mean like the nine pillars that we have? What are the different aspects of us that we wanna get in shape? What are they? Yeah, I think it's those three primarily. I think that often the mind can fall under spiritual and physical.

I think sometimes we can just have those two because I think how we pray affects the mind and how we treat the body affects the mind as well. So what kind of pitfalls did you see in priests that were maybe praying but letting themselves go physically? Yeah, it was really hard. It's really hard to see the humanity of priests and also really beautiful. I'm sure it was a whole canopy of things, but maybe you've got some priests who were just eating like crap and not working out, not moving.

Then you've got some that maybe just were so invested in their parish and the good spiritual activities they were engaged in, the apostolates, they didn't have time for rest. It was, it was both. And, and, or, yeah, I think stress and being run down were probably the biggest and maybe even still what we, what we see. And I think that there is a deep loneliness in priests. Right now, I think they're so spread thin.

I don't think that they have enough community and support. I think if we could only serve one group of people, I would pick priests for the reason that we need priests to receive the sacraments. We need the body of Christ to be healthy, and it's going to start with priests. So yeah, I would see them really run down and almost like a guilt, even more so than the world experienced, about taking care of themselves. Like, I have to serve. I don't have time to worry about my sleep or to eat these kinds of foods. And I don't think that there was a realization about just turning the dial up or back a little bit so that, you know, getting one or two more hours of sleep, you know, cutting out one or two things from from your nutrition. Like it goes a long way. It didn't have to be like a whole overhauling of of their life. How does how does modern life with modern technology

what is that contributing to? We began by talking about this Monsignor Shea and I think you said he was talking about the the anxieties of the world and things like this. I don't know if you saw this, but last year, Elmo tweeted something out, the official Elmo account. It was something like, how's everybody doing? And then there was a flood of thousands of comments just talking about the existential dread. It was kind of funny, but it was like maybe a litmus test for where we are as a society like run down exhausted spread thin This is something I keep para going on about but as a kid You know there were three ways to get a hold of me if you wanted to get a hold of me

You could call my phone that was bolted to my wall write me a letter or come and find me There's actually not another way absolutely love that yeah, like there's not another way But today there's like 8,000 avenues through direct message to text message to WhatsApp to all sorts of ways. People can find your number online, they call you randomly. So it feels like we're trying to fight on a bunch of different shores. And I think a lot of people feel like that and some of that's self-inflicted. Because when we feel anxious or bored, the phone seems to be both the cure and the cause of our anxieties. So you're standing in line at a coffee shop and you don't want to be weird and you feel kind of anxious maybe for whatever reason.

So if you pull out your phone, it seems to kind of calm you a little bit, but it agitates you all the more. And then it's just like this vicious cycle. So what are you seeing? Is that a fair question with modern technology and how that's impacting people and how that's leading to emotional, mental, physical stuff? Yeah, I will start by saying I'm so grateful that I didn't have a cell phone in high school. But before that I didn't and I feel so grateful for that for a lot of reasons.

And I actually do see the trend going a little bit backwards where people are like stopping the phone addiction. I think that there's like a disadvantage now for the youth who have like just grown up with it. And it's just like the normal. I think I've seen, you've seen Matt memes where people like kids are looking at regular phones, like what are these ancient things? Like, oh, it's hysterical.

Yeah, I'd like to. It's hysterical, yeah. I'll share some. But there's such a lack of, like people are fighting just to be present. I think that's the fight. And I feel that... Are they even fighting for that? What do you mean? Well...

Maybe they're not present, but are they fighting to be? I think there are, there's enough awareness that life shouldn't feel this hard. And I think that we're contributing to that, that suffering, that stress, there's definitely an addiction to stress across the board. This like, Oh, speak to that. What do you mean an addiction to stress? Yeah, there's even if you mean that colloquially, what does that mean? When there is a fight or flight response,

we have this like pump of adrenaline that we feel and and that makes us feel alive. And so I think people chase that. I mean, I've seen I know people chase it. I've chased it. I mean, how many of us had the experience of why am I watching Daily Wire again? It's just making me angry. Why am I watching this particular commentator? Like I want to, but I know it's not good for me. Yeah. Well, and also it's it's it's like when you procrastinate and it's like I actually had enough time to do this, but it's like the stress response of of like getting it done under pressure. And and so people really are addicted to that.

Interesting. And I think that we overcomplicate our lives. I think that the way that we're living now is radical. I think that when we talk about living simply at reform, people think like, they'll say to Dr. Bridgen and I all the time like, wow, this is really radical. And we're like, no, how we're living in the world right now is really radical. Like it's not radical to sit down for one meal as a family.

That's not what they say is radical. There are certain things, Matt, truly. Like we'll talk about observing the Sabbath, like really putting boundaries around certain things. We don't even define particularly like what not to do on the Sabbath. And it's like, wow, that is, that is really radical. Give me some things that you tell me. I want to see if I agree if it's radical or not. Like on Sundays? Sure, whatever. What kind of stuff do you tell people that they react to?

Let me do some best practices. OK, unplugging an hour before bed. Yeah. Radical? No, not radical. But the problem is, though. But just like the phone is like a bag of skittles. Yeah. Like in my pocket. It's like my pocket is filled with skittles and a book is like a bag of Skittles. Yeah. It like in my pocket. It's like my pocket is filled

with Skittles and a book is like a steak. And if I'm walking around with a bag of Skittles, I don't want a steak. I don't know why you would want it. You know. And so it's like, I don't even know if we would have the amount of self control at the end of the day to turn the phone off an hour before bed. I don't even know if that would enter someone's head who's just so scrambled. True. I feel like you got to just get rid of the bloody thing. Well, we ask people to not have it in their their bedroom. That's like, yeah, that's a radical thing.

Yeah. They really balk or do they say, I know you're right. It's just really hard. I think it's a little bit of both. I think at first it's like, yes, because innately they know it's it's good. And then all of a sudden it's like, that's that's really hard. Or, you know, my daughter or son's at college and I need to be able to be in touch. And, you know, I understand in that sense.

We invite people to pray every day for 30 minutes. Well, so calm down there. Yeah. Well, you can start small. You can break it up into a little. No, for sure. For sure. Little stints. I'm being sarcastic. I know. I know. I think I think, though, you know, St. Teresa of Avila said that if we don't at least have 15 minutes a day to pray,

like it's not the devil that has to put us in hell. We walk ourselves there just because our minds are focused on the wrong thing. But on the flip side with 15 minutes or more a day, we start changing the lens. And I think that the lens becomes then on less self-reliant, less on the world and more on, okay, I can't do this, but Lord can or our identity or I purpose so

It goes a far way those 15 to 30 minutes. It's something like we're drunk You know like the world the flesh and the devil You know lobbing his arrows at us throughout the day and we're drunk and we're being told to be sober And it's almost like before you do anything, there has to be an absence of something. Do you think like a space created to even understand what you mean by pray half hour a day? Yes, I think that that sorry to cut you off. It's like there's not an app for that. There's not an app to make you better.

Like you have to remove things. Yes, I agree. Of course, we have the saying at Reform where we say, release in order to receive. And I think that there's so much fear around releasing that we forget the grace of what we're going to receive. And I don't think I've ever released something that the Lord has invited me to or that I innately knew was it was time to let go of that. Whatever I got handed in in return wasn't exactly what my heart really desired. See, the problem with that is it just sounds too cute. Someone says the Lord can't be outdone in generosity.

You're like, I don't know if I believe you. I think I'll prove him wrong. And this is the one thing that's keeping me above water right now. And you're telling me to get rid of it. I think I'll prove him wrong. And this is the one thing that's keeping me above water right now. And you're telling me to get rid of it. I'm going to need some proof. We, we often will tell people like the change you resist the most is the change that you need the most. So start there. Because not people will come to reform and they'll, they'll hear pray for 30 minutes a day. And then they'll see that we talk about, you know, moving for 30 minutes a day

or for sitting down for your meals and sitting for 20 minutes and taking some time to rest and digest. And they'll go to these other pillars and just go around prayer. And we're like, the change that you're resisting the most is the change you need the most. And so they'll tell me what some of them are and I'll tell you what I don't like. Okay, because I'm stupid because I'm resisting it. Not it.

Not a thing. So you tell people. All right. So for stress, well, first we started with unplugging. So we're going to work on that one together prayer for 30 minutes. For, well maybe should pick a pillar, nutrition, sleep, stress management, movement, play, space, it's like Jeopardy, which one do you want to go with? Oh, whatever one you think I'm sucking at, even though you don't know me. Well, let's talk about stress management.

We have two recommendations that kind of go under the Sabbath. One is a full and total rest day in the week. And what does that mean? That means only doing the absolute essentials on Sunday. So for sure, of course, mass, but that there's no work in any way. And there's really like not unnecessary spending or like cleaning or things that just don't have to happen on that day. How are you on the Sabbath? Yeah, I think I'm pretty good. I think I'm a mess.

So I'm not going to try to be impervious to all these things you bring up. And maybe I'm just not looking closely enough. I'd probably say that for me, and I think for a lot of people, we, we, we think that our leisure is that, but it's not, it's dissociation, dissociation, or like, this isn't technically work. It's just, I'm just like looking on Instagram, but whatever, like that, that stuff seems to erode my brain. So I can't.

So if you said to me, spend a day where you do, we don't have screen time. You don't watch a movie. Is that kind of what you would say? Yeah, I mean, it depends on like the kind of movie I think in general. But I think if if your screen time is taking a majority of your week, then having one day where you're not using screens, I think would be so beneficial and freeing. And I think when we're really honest with ourselves, like, do I actually need to be doing this?

No, that's what's so scary. What's been scary for me is because I've been back here without the family and I'm realized I've got like three hours and I could spend it well and I don't want to. I'd rather just waste it or not look at the question so I don't feel accused about wasting it. So we also have some like a daily Sabbath, we call it, where it's just like a mini Sabbath in your day. It's like every day you have like 30 minute pause. It's not the 30 minutes of prayer, but it's just a pause to sort of like rest in the Lord. And this is something that I learned from observing religious life. My mom used to tell me all the time

that both of my grandmothers and their moms would like take this like little hiatus right before the kids came home from school. Just like, you know, they were resting their eyes. And whatever that looks like, it could actually look like a nap, but it's not laying on the couch scrolling Instagram. I think a lot of times we don't rest in the way that our body actually needs.

So if we're overstimulated and we're cognitively really tired, doing other things that are mentally stimulating, it's not going to be helpful. Mason Meehan I had this moment. I went and gave this talk somewhere and I was exhausted and went back to my hotel room. It was not my best moment. So I'm like eating Skittles and I'm watching the office, but I'm not watching the office because I'm in a different window scrolling Twitter while listening to the office.

And at some point during that time, I'm probably texting somebody and I'm like, what am I doing? This is no way to live. I wanted to throw my computer out of the window. But it's funny, isn't it? Because like we mistake vegging or dissociating with leisure and wonder why we're still so anxious and exhausted. Well, I think this is like the same bubble like self-care goes in, right? It's like, okay, self-care has to mean like facials and massages. And it's like, no, no, that's not what we mean with self-care. Same thing with rest is not just having all the windows open and Uber Eats and resting and vegging.

Like resting can look like going out in nature, going on a hike. Like you can move, you can be active, but it's like resting the part of your body that actually needs the true rest. And, but you have to have awareness for that. Yeah, that's why I'm very much an all or nothing person. I wish I wasn't.

I wish I was better at moderating. But whenever I moderate, I fail. But I'm super good at going hardcore for like 30 days and then crashing and burning. But those 30 days are great. So I used to take my, and I've done this recently, I take my phone and my laptop and whatever else in a bag and I give it to a friend on Friday night.

And I tell them to mock me mercilessly if I come back Friday Monday morning Because I just am my wife. I love that. Why don't you just put in your top drawer? I'm like cuz I have no self-control How do you not know me? We've been married for 17 years And that's beautiful because there's no that way you're not even dealing with the temptation to pick it up Even if you resisted it's still taking energy And sometimes it matters I mean you have to know yourself and I think that that's that's so important where we we sort of lie or maybe

that the devil allows us to to to believe the lies in our in our own voice of like, now I can handle that if that's just right there. And it's like, sometimes you just have to. That's like saying we can regulate social media. It's almost like all of these social medias have been monkeyed with in such a way that they sort of subvert your reasoning. And you would like to think you can put the phone in its place, but the phone has really put you in its place.

Yeah. Yeah. Man. And I think that this is very real, that it connects to so many other factors. Even as you were speaking about all the windows being open and listening to the office, it's like you're also multitasking, but you're not actually doing one thing well, or even doing it.

And I don't want to. You know what it is? I don't want to exist. Oh, isn't that it? Is it? Do you understand what I just meant? Yeah. Do you know what it's like to,

it's like, I don't want to exist for a while. That's scary. Yeah, it's like we want to, we want to hide and disappear. And, and I think that that's what the phone does. If you think about how weird the world is right now, even, everybody's just alone on their phones in their own houses, not in community, not helping, not serving. I know it's really hard. It's hard to even think about, but it is the truth.

We don't have to live that way. Community is actually one of the pillars of reform because we need people to remind us who we are and who the Lord is. I don't think there's enough of that. How do you use your phone these days? What kind, do you set kind of rules around your technologies? I have to, I have to.

I know myself well enough to- May I ask what they are? Sure. So in the evening I unplug. I aim for nine, depends on what's happening. Sometimes I'm finishing up my master's in theology right now. And so... This is eight master's degrees? This is the third. And anyway, but this is... Sometimes when it ends, I feel this need to check the phone before I unplug. So it's a little later than nine.

But typically it's nine and then I go to 630 Mass and I don't look at my phone until after I get back. That's lovely. And are you usually successful? Yeah, yeah. Good on you. I feel so much better in my day to day when I am obedient to that.

Like there's so much freedom and truly like, it's like I'm saying yes to the Lord right away and not to the world. And then my prayer is even free. Like the mornings that I would look at my phone before mass, I'm responding to that person in my mind. I'm just like not all there. I'm halfway in my phone already,

or I'll see all the notifications. Yeah, social freedom, a really beautiful freedom. And then I do take breaks during the day as well. Good. Yeah, I noticed that for me. I wake up, I have a specific morning prayer rule that I engage in. But sometimes I just lie to myself. I'm like, well, just see if Cami, my wife, has texted, you know, and then it's like, oh gosh, now I'm in the back and forth of the apps.

It's like it's a slot machine. And I feel good when something comes up. And you know, that experience of when you're just bouncing from app to app and you're like, what the hell am I doing? Yeah. And it's almost this fear of putting it down. I had that a bit last night. I was like just scrolling and going back and forth. I're like, what the hell am I doing? And it's almost this fear of putting it down. I had that a bit last night.

I was like just scrolling and going back and forth. I'm like, what am I, I'm afraid. I'm afraid to turn this off. Well, I think there's this like fear of missing out and we don't wanna miss something. And I think also we're just so used to having the stimulation, Matt, that it almost feels a bit empty to not have it.

It's not easy. I will say Dr. Bridget and I spend a lot of time together and she's incredible. If she could not have a phone, she wouldn't for sure. And, but like I'm like the picture taker and you know, the planner in a lot of ways in the ministry. And so like, I also tell myself that like, I'm like the picture taker and the planner in a lot of ways in the ministry. And so I also tell myself that I need my phone

for those reasons. Bridget has no qualms about leaving her phone back for as many hours as possible. It's such beautiful freedom for her. And it's a great witness for me because it's also like, did I even need to carry this around like this entire day? Like I didn't even use it. It's like this, one of the things that actually helped me

in the early days of my conversion is my sister said to me like, she named something in my life as a false security blanket. She was like, that's a false security blanket. Like, and I think that's what the phone is. It's just like false security blanket. If we keep talking, I'm going to smash my phone again. But it's true. And I think we have a lot of those.

Like we labeled it FSB. Like it's a false security blanket. See, I used to I do. You know, I used to take August off the Internet. No. Yeah. So it was wonderful. Right. So like the last day of July, I'd finished my last interview. I'd get my phone and computer away. And for an entire month, I wouldn't touch it and look at it.

And the world usually fell apart and I didn't know. It was wonderful. I remember a few years back during the McCarrick scandal, I was at Divine Liturgy and the priest is commenting on this. Some of my wife's like, oh right, you don't know. Wait, so did it feel like a really long month? Let me tell you what it was like. Oh please, I can't wait.

It was like, you know, those rotating fans. Yeah. It would be like putting that on full speed and just watching it go and then yanking the plug out and slowly watching it slow down. It was like that. It was like my brain gradually slowed down and it was tremendous. Now, do you remember what summer felt like when you were a kid? This is exactly what it feels like.

Why do we do this? No, no've got to. These things are really strong. Stop it. No, don't. Give me a second. Did you hit the camera with the door? Yeah, of course I did.

This is unlike any interview you've ever done or have wanted to do. Feel a little responsible for that. So what's funny is I would talk about this and I would go back to the dumb phone. It would feel great. And then I'd find some excuse to go back to it. And then people will get upset that we would keep demonizing the phone. But I kind of really feel like that's it. As long as that is the smallest computer, it's the most, um,

portable computer, whatever the most portable internet delivering devices I think is the enemy. So one day it'll be contact lenses, but until then, I really think it's the bloody phone. I don't believe people when they tell me they're really good at regulating it. I just, unless maybe they have tremendous self-control. But I think the phone and apps exist to tear that down. A real desire to live differently.

Like I use the example of Bridget in the sense of like, Bridget wants to live offline. She wants to be, I'll give a little background. So we walked the Camino 300 miles of Camino last October. And we barely used our phones. Like we used it to book a hostel or to, yeah, figure out the next place. But we really, we went with the bare minimum, just backpacks, no plans, just start in one place, get to Santiago in a few weeks, 300 miles.

It was the days we felt every step, we felt every minute. And sometimes that's really hard. And also it was like incredible. We were there for three weeks. I thought we were easily there for three months, easily, maybe even longer. And it was there that we were reminded of like the freedom that we used to have as kids.

Like, you know, in Isaiah, we were invited to like return to the days of our youth. And I think about that all the time now of like, why are we not returning to the days of our youth? Like that's how we were intended to live. We need to burn everything down. Don't you think? I think that we just need to return to simplicity. I think the Amish are too liberal. I think we should go, we should go further back. We need to go to the Eucharistic Wellness Center, Matt.

All right, tell us about the Eucharistic Wellness Center. So this is- Because it looks beautiful, I wanna go there. Thank you, God willing. In fact, if you send an image to Thursday, we can put it up for people to check out. Okay, thank you. So this was inspired by really a couple of pilgrimages

and a couple of silent retreats where I was offline and also on the Camino. And I was like, what if I can just live this way? Like, why does this have to feel so radical that I have to go to Spain to spend all this time outside or to go to Medjugorje or Lourdes? And that's not to minimize the grace that happens on pilgrimage. But it was like these bits of silence and space that I was craving and freedom and peace and like a returning to my natural rhythm. And we know grace builds on nature. And I was like, wait a second,

this is how we were designed to live. This is what we teach people, but we're trying to do this like square peg, round hole in the modern world. We don't have to live like this. You don't have to smash your phone, but maybe you do. And I think that's part of knowing yourself.

And I think that's part of knowing to what degree do you wanna live simply? And so we decided that we wanted a place, we wanted to come offline. It was like, we've just built this beautiful online course. We have a few of them and we're connecting with people all over the world. And now we can't wait to get offline. And it's not because we don't want to connect with people

all over the world. It is because there is nothing like encountering the Lord in adoration and encountering the Lord with other people and then having community. And so we wanted to create a place where we can experience a reform way of life, a Eucharistic way of life, a Christ centered life. And so you're building something somewhere. We are, we are building something somewhere. Can I come stay there for a bit? Yeah, we are, we are, we are in the process of, uh,

of pursuing this and we're really excited. We want to be able to nourish people, um, first with the sacraments, but also like come and eat clean, hopefully food that's grown there. Uh, sleep well, uh, with the, the rhythms of the Sun and unplug you where I think we have found There's no cell phone service. So that's not even option But anyway a place where you know, it's like people go sometimes going on retreats and it's great except for like the food's terrible And you can't sleep and or you go on a holiday, but your prayer time is not there And so we just want to you just want to take care of the whole person.

Yeah, that's beautiful. Thank you. So, okay. We haven't even got to this. Could you sum this up in like a paragraph for me so people can know what reform is? What do you do? You do courses, you. Sure. Yeah. We, right now we have, two online courses, reform online. And then after that, it's Dig to the Roots. So Reform Online is foundational, where we redefine health, we look at the body, we look at the soul, and we share best practices for the pillars that I named earlier.

And then after that, people have the option to go a little bit deeper, to dig to the roots of their disease, whether that's spiritual roots or physical roots. And we do a comprehensive gut analysis where we kind of take a snapshot of what's happening. The gut is really like the second brain. And we learn a lot there.

And- How do you take this gut analysis? It's a stool sample. Yes. You get to know people really well. We do. Send us your shit. We will deal with you. Yeah. All right. Well, we take care of a lot of that.

So and but it's amazing because once once people have come to reform and say like, yes, you know what? I do want to live with the Lord at the center of my life. I do want to pursue all these different parts of my life through the lens of the Lord. So it's like, we're not compartmentalizing anymore, Matt. We're looking at the way that we eat through the lens of the Lord.

Our relationships, our closets, like literally everything. And it's not like we're overhauling it all at the same time. It's just like making these small steps consistently and starting with the basics, like sleep, nutrition, and prayer. That's like where we stay with people for a long time. When you say we stay, is it an impersonal course where I'm not actually engaging with

anyone from your staff? You can, you can. There's options. So we have, it's 12 weeks, the foundational course is 12 weeks and there's some option for like pre-recorded classes where you watch at your own pace and then we do live calls and Bridget and I will host them. And then people have the option to add in like personal consulting if they desire. And so it's really kind of like how much intervention you want.

But also... How much do you want me to overhaul your life? But it's also constantly pointing people back to the Lord. Like, and I think some people get upset because they want us to fix them or heal them or change them. And we're we're there to just guide them back to the Lord. That's what we're constantly. I love that. That reminds me, this is in Jordan Peterson in his first, well, second book. I forget what it was called. what was it called 12 rules?

He says what's something you could do that you would do that would make your life better he familiar with this Well the reason I like it is when you say to someone what could you do to make your life better? It's like there's a whole host of things I could do but have you met me? I'm I would smash my phone Then buy the newest one tomorrow. I'm hopeless But it's like what's something you could do that even you would do? So I really liked that incremental approach because it's terrifying to tell someone you're screwing every aspect of your life up and all needs to be. And I think that's what people don't.

That's why they don't want to pursue their health because they've thought, how many times have I tried this and failed? And it's, it's, that. And it's overwhelming. Or I've tried every diet there is out there. Or I keep falling into sin. And I think when we're in the grips of opposition, we can stay there and we listen to these lies. And I think that's where the decision comes in of like,

okay, and this is really, this is what really changed my life. It's like, I can't do this. Like, Lord, I am not equipped to run reform. I don't know. I don't know what you want me to do or why you picked me. But like, and then it was like, actually he he's given me all the grace. He's given me all the education he's given, but I can't do it without him. And I don't want to do it without him.

And so I think that that's something that, um, is like a prerequisite of like, you, you can't really change your life if you're going to be self reliant because you're just going to fall back into the puddle. Uh, and that's a huge act of trust. Can we do this? Can we just sleep nutrition? What was the third one? Faith. All right. So sleep. What do you do to sleep better?

So we're going to go back to unplugging. So let's make some commitments, Matt. Let's do it. OK. What's the, when are you willing to unplug by? Realistic. Realistically, like seven or eight. OK, let's say eight.

No, I believe you. I just want to be, let's be consistent here. But you know what's difficult? OK, unplug means, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're not watching television. You're completely off all technology All right. Well, it depends. It depends. Like so now I'm alone without my family

I'll say eight because I feel enthusiastic because you pump me up. So I say all right eight o'clock and What time are you committing to in the morning? Like are you gonna commit to it some space before waking to pray? So I do do that. Before looking at the phone? Yeah. Good. But as I said, there's times that I lie to myself

and pick it up, so I've gotta be better about that. So let's say what, 7 a.m.? I wake up way later than that. Lately. Again, I'm in a weird thing. I just go back from Austria, those who are watching. Typical day, I'd be up by seven. Okay. So we'll say from...

Eight? Like I would turn my phone on eight? Eight to eight. I like this. It's a nice 12 hour gap. Okay. Eight to eight. We need an app that like electrocutes you if you break your commitments.

Yeah, all right. Yeah, I can do that. All right. So I don't... There's more we can do with sleep, but we're going to start small. That's good. That's it. Eight to eight. Is it just people like me? Or is everyone like this where they get excited and they want to like it? You're getting excited because you know that you are

supposed to live differently. Like you know that. And so you're getting excited to return to the way that you're supposed to feel. And it's like it's so it's so fun It's it is exciting Okay, so let's go to nutrition, okay There's a couple of things we can do with nutrition. Give me a little give me a little update on general. Yeah Well, I mean you get a lot of skittles. No, I know skittles I I eat strict paleo. Okay. Okay.

And whiskey. I think that's on the paleo plan. Is it? Good. It's on my paleo plan. I find I do find like I did I did carnival with my wife in January. Yeah. How did you feel on that? I feel great. I could recall things quicker. Thursday remember I started losing weight and people were like, you look good. look thin, but not in a good way so I was like just

I lost all desire for food. I cannot eat meat again So I would have one meal like three and so tired of it But then we moved to Austria and had really good beer and I was like screw it Yeah, so but no now now I eat paleo and whiskey. That's what I do. And I find, I feel good on that. I know some people might nod or it doesn't work for them, but for me it works well. I think it's important to remember that we're all different in that way. So like, and I think it's healthy

that you have an approach, your wife has an approach. You know, it doesn't mean that everybody has to eat the same. Generally, we should be able to tolerate all foods in a really healthy body. But one thing I noticed is if I eat too much late at night, it ruins my sleep. Okay. This is good.

This is good. Everybody. Yeah. Yes. For the most part. Too much for the most part. Yes. Okay.

So I think what we're going to commit to, I'll invite you to commit to for nutrition. Well let me ask you this. When you are eating your meals throughout the day, do you sit down? Do you eat on the go? No, so I don't eat until afternoon. Okay, so you do some intermittent fasting? Yeah, but I will have a cigar in the morning. Is that part of reform wellness? Cigar and black coffee is a must. I'm not willing to change that.

That sounds right on trend. And then I'll eat, I'll sit down and eat. Yeah. Okay, okay. So I think that we'll commit to, similar to your unplugged time, like a time where we're gonna stop eating. Okay. So this is how you work with people.

So just so people know this isn't just me getting a free session. This is the sort of things y'all do. We do, and then we have like best practices that we share in the course. And then when we work individually, we'll give a personalized protocol in that way. And the truth is that if you think about it,

you're also telling me what you already know you need to change. Like, oh, I eat late at night. It's like, okay, well, you know that doesn't make you feel well, so let's dial it back a little bit. Isn't it true that very often we don't want or like advice? Well, of course, because then we don't have, it's like inconvenient or it's uncomfortable.

And I think that's the thing is that we don't want to feel uncomfortable. We like the things that make us feel comfort, like your cigar in the morning. What's that? Like your cigar in the morning. Oh, I love it. So good.

You got to try it. We have a lounge. No. Okay. Um, but I think it's more than that. I think that is it. I think it's also that when you tell me the solution to my problems, I haven't bought in except if I agree with you because I like you or I trust you.

But there is something like you just said, when people can tell you what they already know that's maybe it. What else? What am I doing wrong? Well, hold on. Let's, let's go to the why for a second, because I think this is really important. And then I have another idea. I think, I think one thing I could be doing is sitting in silent prayer more. Well, that was the last one. Faith, we didn't get there yet. I think a lot of the reason why we see people's lives change so much at reform and it isn't,

I mean, marriages, family, I mean, like Matt, it is amazing what these changes do. It's amazing. And they're so they're simple. They're we're not we're not like talking about lab tests even yet. We're just we're talking about going to bed and you know, and abstaining from from some, you know, foods in some capacity, but when your why is for the Lord, it's the only thing that's not going to change. Like when your why is for a certain body composition or for more productivity or to make certain

amount of money or whatever the case can be, like that might, even if it's a good thing, it might be motivating, but it's not gonna really sustain you. It's not gonna really motivate you. It's not gonna deter you from sort of numbing out after a long day. But when our why is for him, it's like really deeply meaningful and it's no longer about ourselves.

Like we'll lie to ourselves, we'll fail. It just gives everything meaning. I think that people should be as ashamed of using their phone in front of me as they should flatulating. Like, I don't want to see your phone. I think people should treat their phone like a bowel movement. Like, go somewhere else. I don't want you looking. I don't like it at all.

No, it's good. Do you feel like that, Thursday? He's not listening. He's totally blanked out. I'm not a friend. I'm not a it. I don't like it at all. No, it's good. It's I feel like that Thursday. He's not listening. He's totally blanked out. I'm not afraid of farting, he says. I'm only I'm being hyperbolic, but it's really rude. Yeah, no, I I agree. To be in. I mean, it's one thing.

I think I'm OK if you said to me, I'm sorry, do you mind if I take this? You should ask permission because you should feel guilty. He's farting now. He didn't want me to read that. But I, but there is something. Yeah. I was sitting on my porch one day with a friend named Emily, who's beautiful. And I love her and my wife and a few other friends.

And we're all sitting around having a lovely conversation. I had a book in my lap. I was like occasionally flipping a page and reading through it. And I was like, Hey, you want to be with us? Because she was looking at her phone. And so shame, that's what I learned growing up. That's the best policy. I said, you want to be with us here? And she said, Well, what's the difference? What's it you've got a book on your lap, and I'm reading this. And I said, and it was, I should quote someone else, because I'm about to praise myself for this brilliant insight. And that is I work on my book like, but the phone works on you. Do you know what I mean? Like you're acting upon a book. But if you have your phone open, it's the phone that's grabbing your attention in a way that's not natural. So don't look at your phone around me, text around me.

But even as you said that, like I sort of cringe at the times where I have used my phone. Well, do you agree not to agree with me? Why don't even know if I agree with me? I think that there's truth to that. I do. I think it's, you know, we have a common friend, Father Gregory Pine. Love him. So do I.

And he's really intentional about his phone use. Yeah. And I think one time he was having dinner with us and he just like put his phone on the table and immediately he was like back in the pocket and he said it out loud, if you know him, you know he kind of like dialogues out loud sometimes. It's just the, but he's saying.

Like the pocket Gregory. Yeah, exactly, literally, exactly. And he was like, even if it's there, you're like basically saying that it's like that that that thing is an option. And now, you know, I want to put my phone away before we start. Yes. Yes. But but yeah, so it's it's I do think it's it's true, Matt. And but I think we were going here because of the why.

Yeah, sure. Jesus. Absolutely. It's going to be about him. Amen. I agree. I know. Yeah. I think we're just laughing at your joke and trying to come back to it. Yeah. No, people should be ashamed, deeply ashamed of using their phone in front of people, and they should be even more ashamed of speaking on their phone in front of a checkout lady or fellow. Mm hmm. Yeah.

They should feel tremendous shame. That's hard. And even after repentance, you should still hold that guilt. I'm just joking. No, because there's that temptation, eh? Like, gosh. Yeah, it's multitasking. Yeah, this happened to me today where it's like, it's so rude. I saw you do that last week. Where? Thursday. All right. All right. Let's get a face. Leo's. Shame on me. Okay. How much time do you know? Would you like to spend

in prayer every day? Let's start with that. Oh, gosh. I'm trying to decide if I'm about if I just want to tell you what I'm willing to do. Like all up or like chunk of time. Chunks are better, eh? Yeah, but let's go as a total. We can break it up. But like for you to serve in the way that you'd like to with the people and things you've been interested, how do you feel? I think like an hour and a half in total.

Was it too much? No, it's great. Not enough? It's amazing. Should I, no, but I don't mean in one sitting. I mean like getting up, I have a certain regiment that I follow. I would like to sit and, cause there's one thing,

like I like to pray a lot while I walk and think and talk like now, but that's different, isn't it? To devoting time. I tried this this morning, Jackie. I thought, I'm going to sit, because I'm a bit scrambled here, and I'm just going to pray the Jesus prayer. So I sat down. Within five minutes, I came up with three other things that I should be doing, realized that I was trying to distract myself, and then stop praying anyway. That's what's nice about adoration, isn't it? Cause you have a space that you go to where you're committing.

And you're just all in. Yeah. I think that's what I loved so much about it is that I, when I was like first being introduced, I mean, I knew what adoration was, but I mean, like really introduced to the gift of the presence of the Eucharistic Lord. And I remember just being like, this is this is eternal. Like this is this is a little snapshot of heaven right here. Like it's like the the world just drowned away. Like it was like it was and I could be there for five minutes or an hour.

And sometimes I feel like this the same thing, the same amount of time. But I think it's important to know that we can be silent and that we need silence. Like it's not an option, and it feels very optional in the world right now. And even in the day to day, it feels optional, but it's like, it's a necessity. Like prayer is a necessity.

The sacraments are a necessity. And we've sort of like swapped those, Matt. It's like the phone, necessity, prayer is a necessity. The sacraments are a necessity. And we've sort of like swapped those, Matt. It's like the phone necessity prayer option. And it's like we have to like swap those back. That is scary. One thing I noticed like on my August fast, or if I give up the phone for a day or two, is I actually really look forward to watching a movie. But I don't look forward to watching a movie if I'm scrolling and clicking. It's it's almost like I ate all day and I have no appetite for food.

Do you know what I mean? But it's something really nice about I would love to enjoy like a movie with you, like to my wife or something. Let's watch a movie. But I don't have that desire when I just do scroll or watch. It's just more noise or it's more stimulation. Yeah, yeah, I love that. Yeah, silence. I love that. Yeah.

Silence is not optional. You got some some great commitments. Yeah, I'd like you to text me. I will. Yeah. Yeah. Shame memes. No, I don't want you to take it.

Keep it. You can have it. People can't hear him. They just hear me talking to myself. Very good. Um, priests. Okay. So talk about working out because I like to work out at the Y with the old Italian women. You're half Italian. There's a lot of Italians in this town. Like three or four times a week. I love it.

And I think I'm old enough, I'm done with the CrossFit. I know really older people are doing it and crushing it and they're even starting it. Good for them. I don't wanna do it anymore. I don't wanna do it anymore. I really love going and working out. What's your workout?

It's very unimpressive. But how do you enjoy moving? Let's talk like that. So here's what I do. I go to the why I wait till the old Italian women aren't using the treadmill. They usually aren't because they have bad knees and so they use the elliptical. I love the treadmill so much and I listen to really heavy metal music and I will sprint for 25 minutes and I feel fantastic.

And then I just like rotate on the machines. Yeah, that's what I do. Okay, I think the first win is that you're at least moving your body. So we'll just like celebrate that. I don't want to do any more than that. I feel really good with that. Do you feel like you need to do more than that? No.

Do you think I should feel like I need to do more than that? No. Do you think I should feel like I need to do more than that? I think that there's certain ways to gauge if you need to move your body, depending on your goals, I would say, like some strength training is good. No, I am doing that. That's what I mean by the machines. OK, I mean, there's a lot of different kinds of circuits. So yeah, and I am and I do shoulders or back or, you know, I do all that. Legs and I squats or lunges and that kind of stuff. And I do shoulders or back or, you know, I do all that,

legs and I squats or lunges and that kind of stuff. So I rotate that pretty hardcore until my muscles can't move anymore. So I do do that. I really enjoy that. Yeah. I think that one of the biggest points or things to focus on with movement is that you're recovering harder than you train.

That's not a problem. I mustn't train that hard. Recovery is no problem. Yeah, it used to be. I remember doing CrossFit and just barely being able to walk for a couple of days. I think that sometimes, well, it is a good feeling to some degree.

Unless you're damaging yourself. And I think that that's a lot of times why people stop doing CrossFit because they're not recovering enough. And it's like, well, it doesn't have to be so painful if we actually prioritize recovery. Here's what I know I need to do, but I don't do stretching. Not just before work or after. I mean, just I'm an old man.

And when I wake up, I feel like tightness in my back and my knees. So the other day I put on like a little stretching video and some fellow was teaching me how to stretch. I felt great. Do you do stretch? Is that good to do? Just in general? If you want to yoga, but is...

No, no, of course. Yeah, there's a, a, an app called Go Wad that kind of like formulates different stretches and rotates. So there's different like parts of the body throughout the week. But it's, it's, it's really helpful. But yeah, I do, I do stretch. I started as I got in the higher end of my 30s having back issues. And now it's just like it's not non-negotiable.

I have to really be careful not to sit too long and then also just to stretch. And so recovery is like a pretty big deal generally. But so what do you do for recovery? Is there? Oh, I do nothing. Oh, okay. But that's the thing. If you're going to train at all,

we do need to recover to some degree. What do you mean by, you mean like stretching to recover? Okay, so stretching is really, really beneficial. Even just hydration. So like making sure that you're getting enough hydration, some electrolytes. Magnesium is really good to replenish. Okay. My wife gives me like a handful of those pills every night.

Yeah. I think I heard in your interview with her, you guys, you said something like we could fill an automobile with the amount of supplements, which I understand in health attorneys, you know? It's wild. She's off all that, eh? It's amazing. Yeah, except that means supplements, but it's hard to know how much of that stuff is snake oil. I know.

Do you have strong opinions on? I think that it would be great if you didn't need supplements. I think that lifestyle is going to really determine that depending on how stressed we are and what we're getting access to. Like if we got enough sunlight and weren't as stressed as we are, I think that we wouldn't really need a lot of supplementation. I do think I was in like the supplement world for a while. And I do know that there's a great amount of testing you can do. And so there are really high quality supplements.

But also with that, there are. Let me know. Text me some. I will. Yeah. Working out, Resting. Stress. Hmm. Have you read Aquinas's Five Remedies for Sorrow? I have not. Buckle up. They are the following. Do we see? Oh my gosh, you're right.

Thursday? Bloody hell. God bless you. The first thing is do something pleasurable, which sounds so obvious as to me. But he says pleasure is to the soul what rest is to the body. So if you're exhausted and you rest and you find yourself recovered, pleasure does this to the soul. I'm not going to get these all in order, but the other one is the sympathy of friends.

Isn't that lovely? It is. Cause he says, if I tell a friend about my problems, I see in him that he cares for me and this lessens my load. He gives a couple of reasons. Oh, here you go, just scroll down cause I was gonna forget him. Ah, I can't see him anyway. Oh, here we go, sorry, here we go. Pleasure, okay.

How good is this one? Weeping. Not just crying, but ugly crying. And he's got this beautiful thing that he says. It sounds like like what everyone's mom said to them. He says, because it hurts all the more when you keep it shut up. Yeah. Is that wild? So he says it's like that pain releases, which sounds like such a simplistic sympathy of friends. OK, keep going.

Contemplating the truth. Oh, the next one. Check it out. The next one. Yeah, that I've seen before. Isn't that wild? This is what you're talking about. Bath and sleep, sleep and baths. I feel like Koinus really had it figured out. Yeah, no, but truly. That is good. And especially if anyone kind of criticizes the idea of wellness or self-care, his whole point of sleep and baths and even says, and other such remedies is that they restore the body and you are your body. And I think that if like back to sort of like the new age fear, um, I think that there is,

there's been so many like blurred lines of like, what is good for the body? What isn't that like, we do have to return to the basics, which is why, you know, I think that sometimes people come to reform and like, this just feels really simple, or like there should be more. And we're like, no, we're not telling you really anything, at least in the foundational course that you don't innately know, but you're not doing it. And so we have to start doing the things

that are just essential for us to have a baseline of our wellbeing. Like a good bath and sleep. Stress is funny. What is it? God bless you. I think that stress is a perceived threat in general. So I think that when we have a, when we're really stressed out, we have a really low capacity to differentiate what's actually a threat and what's not. And so if you think about, you know, a stressful time in your life, I think if you look at it from a time when you're a little bit more calm, able to like in hindsight, see kind

of the picture more clearly without even knowing like the outcome, you sort of realize like, wow, I don't know that I had to respond in that way. I was like really in fight or flight. Like, you know, it was a kind of a decision. I think actually let's go to do you mind if I talk about Cameron's health for a second? I was listening to her episode with you and and like what you were describing when when she was like finding out about all this news and and that like, there was a lot at stake. I think you mentioned like, I didn't even realize it was that, it was like that bad. And it was, you had mentioned like, I was just sort of surviving with the kids and trying to like make the everyday world go around.

She had sepsis in the ICU. That's what I think it was. Exactly. Yes. And it was like- I didn't realize she could have died. I didn't- Which is like a huge deal, but like you're're it's like you're in fight-or-flight mode and like you can't respond and it's like your your brain goes into like a threat like it's a perceived threat and When when we live that's okay in moments like that like that's a huge deal But we live like that like all the time like every day is a threat There's like where our bodies are just constantly

in fight or flight. And we're supposed to live in our parasympathetic nervous system, which is rest and digest, like not stress so that when something like that happens, we can tap into that. What does that language mean? So there's sympathetic. Yeah, there's two different parts of our nervous system.

So they're sympathetic. First of all, what is a nervous system? I'm not joking. What is that? Okay, so our nervous system is really what regulates our stress response. And so when we experience any sort of stress, psychological, physical, spiritual, our body then responds to it. So our sympathetic is then going to actually either go into fight or flight or like pump out adrenaline to help get us out of danger. Is there a reason for that word sympathetic? Or we don't know, it's just, that's what they call it.

I don't know as much as I do that it is supposed to then like give us the tools really to fight off whatever is coming at us. So that's one part of the nervous system. And then there's parasympathetic. Parasympathetic. Which is our rest and digest. And that's basically to like homeostasis

where we're supposed to live, where we're supposed to stay. Interesting. We're supposed to stay there and tap in. And then occasionally need that. We have the opposite. We like are always living here. Holy crap. And we like tap into this one. And I think that's why we can't manage stress

because we're always stressed. So our capacity to handle it is just, it is just like, it just doesn't exist. And so I think that this is where we ask people, like, we're just, everybody's busy. If you say, how are you? Like the response is busy. I have so much going on. That's just become like the norm. And so it's just normal to be like totally stressed out and chaotic.

That is not my life. Whenever people ask me, I'm like, I'm doing great. I'm not, I got tons to work on. I like, I, yeah, I'm not pretending, but I, I'm really not busy. Mm-hmm. Are you being, are you busy? I'm busy.

I'm not busy. I'm not busy like I used to be busy. I, I would say that my plate can be very full, but I'm much better at delegating or, or not even just delegating, but just like, just not everything is urgent anymore. I think that that was this feeling of, in the beginning of starting reform, was like everything felt urgent and important.

And I was approaching everything like it was urgent and important because it felt urgent and important. And I sort of had to step back and realize that it was unsustainable and I had to stay with just the not urgent and important. To clarify, a lot of the days I'm not busy. I have a lot of people who I've hired

who I didn't need to hire so I don't have to do that thing that I'm not good at anyway. So I'm very good at delegating. But I think that what I do is I look at the phone and I think that causes the stress. But I think it's almost embarrassing, isn't it? For us, we're like, bloody hell, like people were like, you know, fighting wars at much younger age than me. And here I am whining about this phone or being in traffic. Have you seen the series Masters of the Air? Okay.

World War II, it's relatively new on Apple TV. And it's so funny you bring that up as an example. I was thinking of these pilots fighting in World War II and like the stress for these young men and like just so much at stake. And I was thinking like they should be in fight or flight. And I was thinking like, they should be in fight or flight. Rightfully so, like why are we in fight or flight? And I think the answer isn't, well, we're just soft.

I don't think that, I really think it is a more stressful time overall. That I do agree with. And I also, I just think that there is this, I think because in the sense, Matt, the moral compass has shifted in the sense, Matt, the moral compass has shifted in the sense of like our purpose has become almost equally the world and the Lord,

even for like for faithful people. It's like, okay, I am a daughter or son of Christ. I know my desire to serve the Lord. I know my identity, but I actually have to like really perform and do X, Y, Z. There's like this pressure of like keeping up or maintaining or providing and and i think it can be like rightly ordered to some degree but there's still this like immense amount of pressure for doing and and being and it's just i think it's too much i had somebody

say that you know it used to be just the phd's had to publish regularly to be relevant and now we all feel i'm saying but to publish on our social media. And now we all feel, I'm saying, but to publish on our social media feeds or else the social media feed will dip and then people won't see this crap that you're posting that no one needed to see anyway. Okay, so sympathetic, parasympathetic. So how do you recognize what's stressing you out?

Because sometimes I'll be sitting around and I'll notice that my shoulders are tight and I don't know why. And I wonder how much of my day is like that. And I have to remember to kind of breathe. Well, I think that if we're, we kind of need to check in on our symptoms. So like, are we experiencing anxiety?

Are you sleeping through the night? What's your digestion like? Like our body is constantly letting us know how we're doing. So like, if you have poor digestion or you're waking up frequently in the middle of the night, if you feel just like you're constantly rushing to the next thing or like telling yourself

that life is gonna slow down soon, and these are signs of like that we're stressed. We should feel calm. We should feel like there is Saint Patrick Pio, there's a quote attributed to him about living at a heavenly pace. He basically says like, you don't have to wait to get to heaven to live at a heavenly pace. Like we're designed to live at a heavenly pace and to have like consistency and regularity in our days. Like there should be order to our days that does not change. And I think

that again, I sort of disqualified myself from that in the beginning where I thought like, oh, that's how religious live, like that you have to be like an order in order to do that. And it's like, no, we crave the rhythm, we crave like returning so that there's like something predictable for our bodies. And if you think about how much is unpredictable in your day, that's what I think causes stress for most of us. It's don't you think? Yes, but if come out of the blue, which is fine, but if you had prayer that you like was the same every day, if you knew you were gonna nourish your body

and you could, and you were committed to sleep, like at least the things that are nourishing your soul and your body, they're consistent. So you can then handle the things that are thrown at you. That's life. That's awesome. You can't predict that. Yeah, that's really good.

Then why don't we do that? Because we're idiots? I think that there's a modern expectation or sickness, if you will. I think there's a disordered approach to health, to our faith. We're also passionate in the negative sense, right? We have concupiscence.

It's like we're riding on a chariot with several stallions that are pulling us in every different direction. But stress is a big one. And I think that that goes back to even when I was like first starting reform and I knew I was capable. I felt like I had to do everything really well. It was like my identity was in my performance or my dignity or worth was in how much I accomplished.

And nobody like taught me that. I think that was just like the way the life was. Like, it was just like, oh, you know, we sort of hold up a pedestal based on like, how well you perform. And sometimes, you know, in rightly ordered ways, rightfully so, but I was just so tired. Like, how can this be?

I was, you know, late 20s at the time. I'm like, this is unsustainable. Like, I can't keep up with it. And it was like, I don't think I'm supposed to feel this stressed out. I just don't, I don't think I should feel like, I'm always striving to the next thing. And I wasn't, it was like my whole friend group.

It was, you know, it was just like the norm sort of just to, to keep climbing and to do, to, to do more. And I just didn't want to do with that anymore. And I, yeah, I realized that there, I didn't actually have to, there was a way to stop. What's your website and cause if people people like that's a great one. Are you calm? No.

All right. So 98% of our audience who is now potentially a subscriber, what do they do reform.com? Reformwellness.co. Reformwellness.co. We'll put a link in the description below. And people can take a course? Yeah, we start with Reform Online. It's the first step. and that's our foundational course.

Okay, and then how often do they have to be looking at these videos every day? No, it's self-paced. You have 12 weeks to get through the content. Yeah, it's designed to give you enough space to navigate what the Lord is actually wanting to do. What are some, because sometimes, yeah, okay. What are some real life stories?

I've had some really, really great ones. Pick a category. Priest. Okay, great. I was in Lourdes and I quite literally bumped into a priest walking. We were both like hurrying to the grotto. And he recognized me. This this is early days of reform,

and he's like, do you do that health thing? What's going on? Anyway, he wrote me an email when we both got back, and he said, I made a commitment in the grotto to make some changes with my health. So I'll listen to whatever you tell me to do. And I was like, okay, but the only thing I need for you to promise is like that you're really

gonna go all in. Like you're gonna be consistent and that you're really gonna do it. He lost like 60 something pounds in a couple of months. And it helped me pay. Is this after Lewids or when he? So after, so we started working together afterwards. And, but that was like, just the,

that wasn't even the most important, like amazing change, but he saw changes in his prayer life, which we always see with priests. Like there's just, there's just a greater capacity. Like you're no longer weighed down. Like you're not sick. Father Innocent and another priest I was speaking about earlier,

he said the most beautiful line to me after our work together, he said, when I'm feeding myself, I end up feeding the people I'm preaching to. Like the nourishment I give myself is like the quality of my homily. And it's the same thing with the amount of prayer or the quality of prayer, I should say.

It's like the same, it's like how people, how priests feed us and this is what we need. We need them to be nourished. And this is why I say I just come alive with working with priests because their capacity increases and like what more would we want to have healthy priests who are capable of leading us, of shepherding us, which we need so much.

So that was really beautiful. And he's the first priest I just mentioned is it's been several years now, and he's still kept it off. I'll ask for another story, but something just came to mind. Thomas Aquinas says there are three benefits to fasting, and one of them is that the mind rises more easily to God. And I mean, this may not be what he means, but I have a sort of natural way of understanding that when I was eating just meat throughout January, I was just a

lot more alert. I could recall things a lot quicker. I remember even being surprised that things were coming to my mind quicker. And I think that might have to do with the fact that we spend a lot of our days, our bodies are just processing all the garbage we feed it. And so we don't have that sort of mental, what's the word, sort of alertness. And I don't even think I was eating the typical American diet. But imagine if you're eating processed foods

and sodas and things like this. Yeah, you're literally sick. I think that the standard American diet is, I mean, it's so far off for how we should be nourishing our bodies. And even in one of the recommendations we give in our foundational course is to eat real food. And people want more than that.

Like, and I understand it. Like it's like, okay, but give me the details. And we're like, before we even go, and we know that there's, you know, there's a lot more. Pronounce the things on the ingredients list. Exactly, like eat real food, delicious, start with that list, start with sitting down and eating real food.

And it's amazing what just those two things can do for people. And then we can get into the details, but when we rightly order the basics, Matt, like the details build themself in. It's like, it's not actually that important. To some people, to some people that have- How many people have you worked with

who were passionate about changing, I mean, are the majority of people, did they just give up within the first week or how did- No, our completion rate is really high. It's amazing. That's a real beautiful compliment to you. It's all glory to the Lord truly, because I think that this is what I go back to with

when your why is for the Lord, it's sustainable. Like they're not, if you come to reform for something fleeting, it's not gonna feel sustainable. It's not gonna feel like, oh, this is the change I really want. But when you come, because you know that you want to change and really change where you want to, not only just reform, but you want the quality of your life

to be that which you were created for. That's a whole different approach. Now all of a sudden we're not just choosing real food just because we know it's healthy for our gut. That's like one of lots of reasons that we wanna eat in that way. All right. So we've talked about sort of emotionally, psychologically with the foam, with the dissociation, that sort of stuff. We've talked about food, the importance of eating whole

foods. I'm simplifying it. We've talked about the importance of prayer and setting time aside to be in silence with the Lord. Is there like another component we've totally not talked about yet? Well, we have other pillars that we do educate on. Play is one of them. I love the pillar of play. I think it's- How do you play? I play in lots of different ways. I love to play sports. I love to play with my nieces and nephews. I have a new pup. Her name is Lucy, and we play all the time together. I think that play for me is time that is purposeless, and a time where I can be fully present. I am newly returning to play some instruments. I used to play the piano growing up,

my grandmother was amazing. But these are ways where people can can play. And so if people have like an artistic talent, that's that's one way. But I think that we have deemed play as a luxury or we mistake play for scrolling. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, well, we and one of the guest speaker that we had on present for us at Reform said, it's not childish, it's childlike. And I love that because some people play and like go to Vegas and like that's not actually really playing. Right. It's like and right.

And so it's more so like we shouldn't have to escape from from life. And so it's like, well, how can I be childlike? And I guess, Matt, let me ask you when, when you were a kid, how did you, how did you play? I played different sports. I played basketball with friends in the backyard. I rode BMX bikes all over town. So you were mostly with people. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's great. It's just a good way for like, for when sometimes adults either didn't have the opportunity to play as a kid

Or feel like they haven't earned the opportunity to play Or just don't know how I often will invite them like if you did play as a kid like What did you do and sometimes people like actually played by myself? And it's like well, maybe that's okay like to to do something creative have a creative outlet, you know on your own It doesn't have to look like playing a sport. Yeah. But like, yeah, so play is a big one.

And I think that we see people feel like, again, they need to earn it. And rather than like having time in their day where they can just be lighthearted and joyful. Yeah. So I'm gonna keep going back to Aquinas. He addresses play in the Sumer. You were in the sea.

So he uses the story of somebody comes to up to St. John and and ask them why they're playing. And he says, well, could you you have a bow and arrow? Could you keep shooting arrows repeatedly? And he says, no, eventually the string would break. And he says, that's right. Just like you need to relax the string, we need to relax our mind. So play is a virtue.

You know what I just started getting into is puzzles. Oh, that's wonderful. You were more impressed with that than I thought you would be, I gotta say. But what happened was, so I went down to the store and I bought a, in Austria, I bought a 1,000 piece puzzle, which is not what I should have done.

I came back and within five minutes like, no. And then my family tried it. And then I bought a 500 one, which my wife finished for me as well. I really think I need to start a lot. A little slower. You know, Dr. Bridge is really into puzzles. And we just got Father Gregory Pine into puzzles.

And talk to me. Well. I mean, I guess there's not much to say. It's a puzzle. It's like it's a bit of combining some of the pillars in that it's play and stress management. And it's like, well, there might be seasons where life is busy and full. But like, why don't we have time to do a puzzle? Like, what are we what are we doing?

And what are we maybe like avoiding or or maybe's like, we don't really know how to play again. So like, I think play is very therapeutic and necessary, which is why I was so excited because like it fully requires your presence. Like you have to be there. You can't be scrolling on puzzle. No, no. Yeah.

I once had a priest get up and give a homily where he used an analogy. He said, imagine I had a big vase here. And then he distinguished between granules of sand, pebbles and big rocks, you know where I'm going. And he said the granules of sand, or sand I suppose, is like those unimportant things that can fill up our life. And if you fill the vase up with that, there's no room for the rocks, there's no room for the pebbles, but if you begin with the big things, then you can put the smaller things

and then the sand in afterwards. And I think one of the reasons we don't play is that our life is filled with the sand of technology and scrolling and Netflix and YouTube Podcasts like that's another thing like You I remember once being like how am I gonna clean my kitchen? I don't have a podcast to listen to I don't know if that's possible to go hand-in-hand which which is funny, but really sad because I don't know how possible to go hand in hand, which, which is funny, but really sad because I don't know how, uh, you know, all those random thoughts we have as we walk about and engage with the world, like there's probably a reason for that. Like that's probably healthy.

And if I just have somebody else's voice in my head all the time, this, this is probably not good. Yeah. It's a bit of an escape or distraction. Someone right now is listening to our podcast, cleaning the kitchen, feeling guilty. Yeah. You can hit pass. It's a bit of a what? Distraction? I think it's a bit of an escape or distraction. Someone right now is listening to our podcast, cleaning the kitchen, feeling guilty. You can hit pause. It's a bit of a what?

Distraction? I think it's a distraction. It's more noise and you know, it's not bad, but it's one of these things where it's like, have I created any space or silence? Like why am I listening? You know, sometimes it's just general enjoyment, leisure. You know, that's okay.

Sometimes it can be educational, also okay. But if there hasn't been any silence in your day, then it's okay to, even right now, hit pause. Yeah. All right, play. Well, that's good. I like that we brought up puzzles because I don't know, sometimes you feel like I'm useless.

I got no skills, I can't do anything anyway. I'm not very good at puzzles. I mean, it requires a lot of patience. What's Father Pine doing? You said you got him into puzzles. What's he? Yeah, he's well, we've like slowly been gifting him like more puzzles and we're like increasing the amount of pieces. So but I don't think we started him off at a thousand. I think we started at five hundred. That's funny.

I just realized that I think that's how I heard of y'all. It was Father Pine recorded a video for us in which he told us how much of a blessing this had been to him. Yeah. He when we relocated to Virginia, where I did at least, Bridget was already there. He was yeah, we connected with him through another Dominican and it was just yeah, he's a, yeah, he's a joy. Yeah. All right, play. What else? Is there another? Space is a great pillar. Space.

Yeah. Okay. So space can mean a few things. So it was first inspired through having space in prayer, right? In adoration specifically, but like one- one time, like true space. And I chose adoration because in the, in the chapels that I've had the gift of praying in, it's been very spacious and quiet and private. Sorry. That is a spam call on a stupid watch. But I imagine space to be like real freedom to connect with the Lord. And so I was originally how it was, it came to be. But space can mean anything like your physical environment, like your environment at your desk or in your home. It can mean space and nature, space on your calendar. And so it's just like actually having room for nothing to be.

And so it's actually the pillar that we talk about last. But I think along the way, people experience space, because they're used to coming to a course and receiving education, being told what to do. And we give a lot more freedom. We say, here's how we define health. Here are the pillars. Go to the Lord and like pray, like see where the, what the next step is.

Here are some of our best practices. This is what we've seen, you know, thousands of people do that have really been helpful, but like you can't do all of them all at once. You have to pray about like where to start. And it's really uncomfortable, but people take the space. And so it's sort of like, what should I be doing? And I'm like, everybody's going to get an A in reform.

Like, you don't have to worry about a grade. But I think that there is this discomfort in space. And people are afraid to not have plans on the weekends, like to just have a weekend with nothing, or to have like a lack of possessions, like space on their shelves or in their closet. And it just sort of feels uncomfortable to have space, but it's actually the greatest feeling in the world.

It goes back to the release and receive bit that we were talking about. And so, yeah, and also getting people outside in nature. And I think that that's like, we forget that we were intended to be outside as much as possible and inside like at a necessity and not, we've sort of like got that. It's like this sympathetic, parasympathetic thing.

Yeah, exactly. We've got that flipped. Exactly. So space is a really great pillar because it allows us and invites us to create like transition in time in our lives. If you, even if you think about like some of the plans that we make,

what you sometimes like have very tight margins and we don't allow ourselves like actually space to process. I'm really good at saying no to people. That's great. And I hear that that's something people should do. That's it is. We often say that no is a complete sentence because it's usually like, I don't really know why this is a no, but I'm going to say, I'm going to say yes, because I don't have a good enough reason. It's like, no, it's OK to just say no.

Like, that's that's OK. Yeah. Good. Let's take a break. Great. And then I have locals questions I want to ask you. Okay. I want to tell you about a course that I have created for men to overcome pornography. It is called strive21.com slash Matt. You go there right now, or if you text strive to 66866, we'll send you the link. It's a hundred percent free. And it's a course I've created to help men to give them the tools to overcome pornography. Usually men know that porn is wrong, they don't need me or you to convince them that it's wrong.

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So anonymous says, how do you make yourself do the things that are good for you when you're so burnt out that all you want to do is veg out and do nothing for the foreseeable future? Such a beautiful question. Relatable. Yeah, that's a great point. Because at that very point where you should be making significant changes so your life could be better, you're so exhausted. That's the last thing you want to do. Well, I think you have to start with some rest like you can't just take a first

step if there's nothing in the tank. So I think that there there can be a healthy degree of even just okay. Let's start with just one night sleep. degree of even just, okay, let's start with just one night's sleep. But there has to be at least enough desire to take one next step, you know, and it could be small. It could just be, you know, the next meal to choose differently. It could be to return to the sacraments. I think that the next best step is gonna differ for each person, but I think it's okay to also admit your poverty and invite the Lord into it like right there.

Like, Lord, I've got nothing. I have got absolutely nothing and I can't do this, but you can, and he will. I think that there's just this like need to surrender. And that often is the first thing. And that's why I said it's okay. It's okay to rest because usually the rest is the surrender of like I'm burned out and it's unsustainable for me to keep going. Do you find that most people who come to y'all are like they've hit some scary point in their

life like the same reason a lot of people go to therapy is good. Or I think it's a it's a it's a good combination. But but most people at. At least know what burnout is, and they're either very close to it, or they've just come out of a season where they've burnt out and they're kind of like trying to come out on the other side. This is a serious question. What is anxiety and how is it different from being afraid? Well, the root of anxiety is often fear. And it could be of the past or the future.

It's not being present. And I think anxiety can feel a different way depending on what the root of fear is. Like it can manifest itself in the body in a lot of ways. When people say I feel anxious, what do they mean? Usually fearful. That's why I was like, it's hard to disconnect it, you know, and it could mean like heart racing or sort of like the not so good butterflies in your stomach feeling or just sort of like a weight is on your chest, like heaviness there, but it's often rooted in fear. Okay. Cause I've been hearing a lot more about anxiety the last 10, 15 years than I have ever before. You know what we see a lot of anxiety dissipate with healing the gut. Wow.

It's amazing. Wow. Yeah, anxiety and depression. So through diet, yeah? Yeah, and often, well, it's diet, but it's also what got us there in the first place. And sometimes it's diet, but it also can be living a stressful lifestyle

for a long time. and your body is just, instead of pumping blood to the stomach to help you digest, it's pumping blood to the heart, to like things it's under attack, if you will. And so like then digestive system starts to go down. Most of our immune system is in our gut. So when our immunity is suppressed, it's often connected to the down. Most of our immune system is in our gut. So when our immunity is suppressed, it's often connected to the gut.

So that's why our second course is about the gut, because we've seen over and over again that that's usually the root of disease. So I mean, when you take a stool sample from folks, what goes on? And what are they able to detect through that? We can see a lot of what's happening in that. Well, it's the small intestine that we're

getting like a snapshot of. And so we're seeing good bacteria, bad bacteria, any parasites, worms, God forbid. We see their immune response, how well they can break down certain enzymes that break down gluten, overall inflammation in the gut. So there's a lot that we can see and often we do see things, we do find things. And it's like just another layer in already sort of like chaotic environment that your body's like now fighting off a parasite or overgrown bacteria and it just.

And you ever to pinpoint the cause of these things? Once we get well, yes and no. I think that sometimes it's hard to pinpoint because there's just like so much chaos and lifestyle or or just like a lot of trauma. You're not doing well. There is some of that. But then there's other situations where, you know, a person traveled to this place, they never had, you know, any symptoms before, or any issues and they come back, it's pretty easy to trace, you know, for things like a parasite, let's say.

But often the symptoms really do tell us a story, and we do say that testing is important because you don't wanna just guess and start like self diagnosing, but often if you regulate your stress, start sleeping and doing the foundational things, we don't need to lab test to help you heal entirely, depending on what their real symptoms are. And so I think we-

It feels like y'all should have coaches. I'm laughing because we're on our way, Matt. Yeah, no, we do have, I mean, it's right now, it's Bridget and myself as far as like who does the consultation. We used to have a little more, oh, we used to have a bigger team. But it was one of these things where like, we needed to know where the ship was sailing fully

and we knew that it was coming off offline a little bit more. And so I think we'll expand again, once we have roots at the Eucharistic Wellness Center. That sounded like I changed topics, but it was just this idea that if you if you're if we're expanding in that way, what if you examine someone's stool and you decide that they're actually quite sick and you talk to them and they have some ideas about how they can change their life and you help them with that, it feels like accountability with someone on your team would be a really helpful thing. Our community, we have a community platform that, that once you take a course, you're

you're a part of and that is really right now the accountability outside of if you get, you know, consultations with us, but, but it is really beautiful to watch people, I think this word is overused sometimes, but be vulnerable and sharing that they need help. We had a season recently where we had a lot of new dads come to us and we don't generally have a lot of men. We help men certainly, but women are usually the ones who come first and then husbands

to follow where they just say, I'll just do what she's doing kind of thing. And I felt like, wow, that's really vulnerable and awesome that this these young dads knew that they needed help. Like they were just overwhelmed, not sleeping, providing, you know, and just like, I need to reform. And I so appreciated that. Yeah, that is that takes strength. And just like I need I need to reform and I I so appreciated that. Yeah, that is that takes strength. Megan says, What are the top five things you would recommend to start down

the road of feeling better and getting away from exhaustion, anxiety and the general day to day fatigue a lot of people experience? OK, five things. Just five of the nine pillars. Yeah, well, I think I'm actually going to even simplify it even more. Make sure that there's time in prayer. At least, let's say at least 15 minutes to start. Second is prioritize sleep, minimum seven hours.

Clear three things off of your to do list. Clear meaning don't do them or get them done. No. Oh, good. Good differentiation there. Like, delegate or delete. I would say then prioritizing nutrition in the sense of getting rid of at least one thing that you know is not making you healthier that's in your diet, alcohol, gluten, sugar. Fifth thing is spend as much time outside as possible.

How do you try to do that then? Do you just go and walk? Yeah, I do, but most recently over the last few months, I would say like at the start of the new year, I've done this more regularly, getting outside right at sunrise. My wife does this. It's really-

She takes her shoes off and walks around like a hippie. Cameron's really, yeah, she's really dialed in. But I think watching the sunrise or getting outside, before you look at your phone, getting natural sunlight and even the opposite, seeing the sun set or spending time outside. You know, I talked about California earlier. That was, I think I watched the sunset every single day that I lived there. That was like one of the benefits of nature in that way.

I used to live in San Diego, by the way. Really? I worked at Catholic Answers. Yeah. They were in El Cajon. Okay, yeah. I used to go surfing a couple of times a week at La Jolla Shores.

Oh, yeah. Such a beautiful place. It really is, yeah. I was up in Cardiff and Senews area. I suppose one way people could marry these two things is to pray outside. Absolutely. I do find if I pray a rosary,

it's a lot more easy for me to meditate on the mysteries if I'm moving. And I love walking. I do a fair amount of walking's a lot more easy for me to meditate on the mysteries if I'm moving. And I love walking. I do a fair amount of walking. I think that sometimes we have this idea that we can only move our bodies if we're going to sweat profusely or do something intense. But it's like you can just... Yeah, isn't that funny?

You can just go outside for 20 minutes and go for a short walk. Isn't that funny? Doesn't that just go to show how unnatural our lives are? Because that would be like thinking, if I'm going going to eat I have to binge. It's like, why do you think that? It's okay. Although that's not a good analogy because binging is not healthy but working out is but okay. I take it back. You keep talking. All right, there's five good things. Let's see, I'm just making sure this person doesn't want to be, I'll just say their first name. Lindsay asks, my mother has severe rheumatoid arthritis and a host of other immune issues.

The only real answer doctors have for her is steroids and a type of chemotherapy. Is there any type of holistic path for this or other autoimmune diseases? I know you can't be specific to a patient you've never met, but is the holistic route something that could provide a different plan of care? Yes, we've seen it lots and lots of times. When I hear holistic, when my wife offers me things like, here, try this as a vitamin, I just I have no interest in it. I just think it's I call it cucumber skin.

It's all fake. I don't want it. And I know that I don't know if that's not true. It just feels like you go to these stores and there's vitamins everywhere. And I think part of it is my wife will give me one of these things and she'll say something like there's no way that that thing is going to do what you're telling me it's going to do. Am I just overly critical, skeptical? It's going to be somewhat skeptical, but maybe I'm. Yeah, I was going to say maybe I think it's like the in between. Like it's good to have

some skepticism, certainly. And again, we don't want like supplements to be the band-aid for actually not making a true lifestyle change. So I think it's important to then, you know, have a rightly ordered approach to it. But I will say in this case specifically, we have seen diet help RA a lot. There, I mean, there's several autoimmune paleo protocols

that I've seen work really well for people. And then often testing the gut to help support it. But certainly there are ways to do it naturally that don't involve steroids. I brought up the vitamins because of this word holistic. Yeah, that's gotten a bad name, hasn't it? Yeah, and I think it's because of the new age stuff. And there's not a lot of regulations around even organic anymore.

It's sort of like hard to trust. A lot of recommendations just generally, even from the FDA standards, aren't really that great. But I would, I think that there's certain things that we should prioritize quality, but it doesn't have to be like everything are perfect. Like we have to live reasonably and also within means. Like I think, let's talk about carnivore.

Like that could be very expensive if you're only getting the highest quality or, and it's like, well, let's just start with like, just let's eat meat. let's eat as, yeah. And eat good quality when you can. Maybe it's a certain, you know, certain meals or within your budget, but it doesn't have to, it shouldn't deter you if you're not doing it perfectly,

you know, or to the highest standard, if you will. Yeah, okay, that's good, thank you. Aquila says, how, when do you differentiate between self-care and licentiousness? That's good, or self-care or like selfishness? Like you could imagine a mother, rather than taking care of her husband and wife,

coming up with some reason where she needs to leave for the week, or leave the weekend, or spend too much time. Yeah. Yeah, I really appreciate this question. I think that there has to, there's like two ends of the spectrum, Matt, right? Where there's that runaway kind of like, I need this retreat, I need this, you know, spa weekend, all of these things, which I'm not labeling right or wrong or good or bad. Or there's just like the kind of just disheveled. And I don't mean that in a negative way, but more so like just their soul and everything is disheveled. Like it's just unwell. Like how well are we serving in those two places? And the truth is not well, right? So we have to come back.

Father John Anthony, he's the vicar of the friars. He says like moderation and moderation. And I love that so much because I think we live moderately and I don't know that that's appropriate in all realms of life. And so like often we'll approach nutrition or movement with like a lot of gusto or not. We're on like, and our relationship with the Lord is like moderate.

And I think it's like, again, another thing we need to turn around, like go all in with him. And then we can be moderate in certain things, but self-care should be stewarding our bodies and our souls. Like that is our duty. That is our duty. That's our job as human beings.

That is part of our stewarding the gifts of our bodies. And so where do we differentiate it? I think that if you feel that you have an honest capacity to serve in the ways that you've been entrusted, and that's consistent, then you're doing it. And if you're not, then there might be a need for more attention to some areas that serve your body or your soul.

And so I would say we stick with the essentials, right? We wanna be doing at least the foundational things, but you want to be, it's hard to define like where the pendulum is, but the truth is that like. This is true with all sins, hey, because you know, you might say, well, it's a good thing that you be confident and you want to say, well, what's the difference between confidence and pride? Well, or it's a good thing. Like sexual desire is a good thing.

Like, how do I know exactly when it slips into lust? And it's like, well, this is going to take some introspection. And I imagine if you're asking the question, you're probably in a place to answer it. I also would think that depends what you mean by self care. Like, again, like what we've talked about today, we've sort of eliminated doom scrolling and binging and just buying stuff on Amazon because you get a dopamine hit.

So if I'm actually, you know, like, I know like, like selfishly, I want my wife to be well because I need her functioning. So I'm all about like sending her away or please go get a massage or any of that stuff because I want her good. That is primarily what it is. But then secondarily, I also need you to be functioning for our family, please, as best

as you can. And so you being a martyr doesn't help me actually. Well, it's also the gift of self. And that's what I mean by like a capacity. Like it's literally to be able to give whatever the Lord has entrusted to us, whether that's a charism, whether that's a vocation. But if we don't have availability for that, that's, we're not, we're not doing as we're being asked to do. Yeah. It's a good question. It's a really good question because you see people being, or you might see yourself or other

people being selfish and then people talk about self-care and you think golly that's just but the abuse doesn't negate the use so just because people might say self-care when they mean selfishness it doesn't mean that self-care isn't a thing yeah i don't i you know self-care isn't we're not saying plastic surgery or like we're we're talking about the basics just to to feel um yeah to feel calm to live in your parasympathetic. Right. Yeah. Okay. Vincent says, how do we interpret the lives of the saints who took on heroic modifications

of their bodies for holiness' sake? St. Francis of Assisi, for example, while also honoring the appropriate need for wellness. This question has come up more in the last few weeks than ever before. It's so interesting to me. I think that the saints were given the grace to live out these really grandiose sacrifices, and they, I believe, were really invited clearly to do so. I think that when the Lord stretches us and invites us to make big sacrificial strides for our own sanctification and for those of others, He gives us the grace to carry them

out. And I think that if you don't even have, like, again, the foundational baselines, I don't think He's going to ask even more of you. And have I seen people, you know, fast for a long time or like really do some pretty incredible things? I have, but it's always been with a really strong baseline. Again, not to overuse this word, but like they had the capacity to do that with His grace, but at least there was this foundation. Yeah.

Two things I would add to that is, number one, Francis of Assisi asked forgiveness from his body at the end of his life. Yeah, two things I would add to that is number one, Francis of Assisi asked forgiveness from his body at the end of his life. So to say that a saint imposed upon themselves all sorts of rigorous mortifications isn't to say that they did it perfectly or were even right to do it. Also you might say, well, but what about Mother Teresa? She seemed deeply depressed. And okay, either that's because the Lord's called her to something specific that he's

not calling you to, or maybe he is, but he'll show you in the same way he showed her. It also might mean that Mother Teresa could have done things better. Like to say that somebody's a saint is not to say that they lived it out perfectly. Is that too clear? Thursday says also most of the ascetics were in religious life and didn't have families relying on them. Yeah. I mean, some of them are in charge of religious orders.

So I suppose you would say if it was interfering with their ability to run the order, then hmm. Yeah, like I don't think the Lord's going to ask you to do something outside of the vocation he's entrusted to you, you know, to sacrifice that, which I think is a good point about, about families. Yeah. Yeah.

Like if you're going to the Adoration Chapel several times a day and kind of ignoring your duties around the house, this is, this is not good. Right. Yeah. I love what you said though about, well, let's get the baseline things, you know, that is really good. It's like, sometimes I'll go, I'm going to do this thing. And then I'm like, well, what if I just didn't get angry with my family?

No, no, no, not going to do that. I'm going to get to, but I am going to put a pebble in my shoe because that is something I can brag about. But not yelling at my kids is not. OK, Marty says, I would love to hear her response to those who struggle that if you seek natural remedies before prescription solutions, you are denying God's gift of medicine or even falling into superstition or witchcraft.

Does she believe there is a line between avoiding pharmaceuticals or a line where just avoiding pharmaceuticals becomes dangerous? Another really great question. I would just be careful with language here. Science and medicine are gifts. And so I do think that we can use them depending on the need, right? So whenever I see people like doing things

that are pretty drastic or radical outside, even like a baseline of returning to a normal, it should be because there is a great need for that, right? So like, for example, Cameron doing a carnivore, like she had some pretty severe health stuff going on and then she had to do a take a serious means like toward healing her body and in a particular diet. I think that that's a approach where like we have to look at all of the options and

consider them. Sometimes there is a need for antibiotics, for prescription medicine. I don't think that that's always the answer. I don't think that's what we should jump to all the time. But if there is a deep illness and that is what is discerned in all aspects, I think from a medical side, from a spiritual side, from the people who love you and are deciding with you, then yes, pursue it in peace,

knowing that medicine can and is a gift, but it shouldn't take priority over the things that also can heal you, like the Eucharist, like the sacraments, and like these lifestyle things that we're talking about. I think that both can coexist to some degree as needed, but I don't think there's like a black or white response to this in that way, you know?

I was shocked when I moved to America and I saw how much medicine everybody was taking. I'm being hyperbolic, but it was wild. I met this kid, he had a Ziploc bag. He was going on a religious sort of life-teen retreat. It was Ziploc bag, huge Ziploc bag filled with medicine. I remember him saying, this is for this, he had a ziplock bag. He was going on a religious sort of life team retreat. It is a ziplock bag, huge ziplock bag filled with medicine. I remember him saying, this is for this. He had that voice. This is for my bed, bed wedding. He actually said that. And I just noticed this was everywhere, you know? And I know Americans love their freedom and all that.

But like you got to wish I was in Australia. But is that free? No, it's not at all. No, you're exactly right. But that's what people will say. They're like that. And even now, being in America and like drinking the Kool-Aid, I also kind of feel like I'm an American where I'm like, oh, for goodness sake, I'm going to get prescription for give me my frigging Nyquil. But like you go to Australia, Australia recently, and I wanted like a Sudafed. But they just had now maybe that was the wrong thing, because people are going to fact check this and I'll be mistaken.

But I wanted something for my sinuses and I couldn't get over the counter what I could get over the counter here. So I remember that being really, really, I'm not on any medication. Do you think most Americans are? I do. Yeah, I think that, and this is sort of the example

I was thinking about, like the amount of prescriptions for anxiety or depression without you know addressing the root cause it's just it's so it's really sad like and and I there's no judgment toward toward that you know I but I think that toward taking medication I do think though that there are so many other ways of approaching it and again without, without shame, I mean, it's, it's, but I think that there's, it could either be a both and, or we really need to look at,

how did I get here in the first place? And again, as the observer, not the judge, but looking at what are the things that are actually in my control, like my lifestyle, like my stress, like my community, sleep, et cetera. This person who has an indecipherable name says, any advice on how to select a healthcare provider and how to navigate situations where a patient

has a concern or just feels off, but initial tests don't identify any clear causes. Is he talking about a healthcare provider or someone? He's is this a doctor? I don't understand. I think they're referring to themselves being the patient. I think.

Well, you could take reform online, but you could also if you feel like you want more direct immediately than my Catholic doctor is a really great resource. Do you know my Catholic doctor? Yeah. is a really great resource. Do you know my Catholic doctor? I've heard of it. Yeah, it's a really great resource. James and Anna Coffey say Jackie is the best. I would love to hear her tips for prioritizing physical and spiritual wellness after having a baby while raising small children. God bless you. It's a great question.

I think the most common people that we work with outside of priests and religious are our parents, new parents. God bless you is right. Okay, a couple of things. First is you have to prioritize your own health. You can't pour from an empty cup. But again, within reason. So you're not going to be able to do everything that we've talked about all at once

But I think the first step is Prioritizing what you can control. So if you have a little one you will likely cannot control sleep Like let's just throw that out. Just don't don't even try right now. You can get there But maybe it's it's prioritizing the quality of your food. Maybe it's it's prioritizing Your nose and and having less stress and less commitments right now. It could be getting more space, whether that's in prayer, whether that's outside, whether that's just taking space to have a little Nazareth with your family and kind of taking a hiatus from other commitments. But give yourself the grace and the space

to control what you can and to remove any option right now that's outside of your control. And then capacity will increase. Say that again, sorry. No, I was just gonna say and capacity will increase. Like you'll be able to do more. I would imagine there's a lot of pressure online in some circles for women to get their bodies back

after a baby and how is that? I'm sure you see that online, I don't know. We see it all the time. Body image is one of the heaviest crosses and consistent among men and women that we see at reform. And there is so much pressure. And I often think, I actually wanted to ask you this earlier, what does a healthy body actually look like?

We've lost what that is because there's been just so much dysfunction and disorder with how we've labeled what healthy looks like. And I think that my perspective on healthy would look a lot different than what the world would define right now as healthy. I want to, I mean, this is great exercise for these parents to do. And I'm going to ask you this question, Matt.

Like, what does Matt look like fully alive? Are you talking in regards to physically or spiritually? Both. It's too hard to say both. Cause I'll just say something bland, like being a saint or being happy. But like right now, within reason, if you were in the pursuit of wanting to feel fully alive.

As best as I could feel. Then I think I would be eating well, I would have less of a gut, I would be sleeping through the night, I would be meeting with my spiritual director regularly, my wife and I would have regular date nights. We'd be working through, like that's the thing, right? Like to be fully alive isn't to be without problems.

It's to be like, you know, to have the courage to go into those areas that we need to work on as a family, as husband and wife, but to do so with hope. I love what you just said of being fully alive is not to go without challenges, because I think that we think fully alive means like ease and joy and no suffering. And it's like, no, no, being fully alive,

you get to actually experience the joy and the sorrow. Like part of being alive is feeling the spectrum of all things, is experience of all things. And so even for these lovely new parents, I think that part of being fully alive is having sleepless nights and not comparing yourselves to what the former body used to be like, but to enjoy the gift of what your body can do.

It just gave life and it's nourishing this new child. And it just like shift the lens a little bit to the expectations that are realistic. And part of that is probably not engaging with social media or friends or people who are maybe contributing to you feeling guilty that you're not there yet. That's why I said have your own little Nazareth because I think that, you know, it's okay to have very simple days.

It's okay that you're not, you know, doing all these things that the world tells you to do when you first have a baby and to just experience the joy of of the gift. Yeah Carbide says some people substitute spiritual well-being for mental health This attachment can bring us Up but also let sin drag us down emotionally What I help what are healthy separations of the mind and spirit? Does that make sense to you?

So spiritual so that makes sense like I'm spiritually healthy. What they mean is like I'm emotionally healthy. So what's the distinction? I Think if I understand that the question correctly, I mean to be spiritually healthy first we want to Look at the state of our soul, right? And so it's like, am I in a state of grace? And we often speak about this of like, what am I aware of the things I do regularly that are helping my spiritual well-being that are actually like, if you looked at it like a bank account that are like deposits in my wellness account for my spiritual well-being. But almost as important to that, Matt, is like, well, am I aware of the things I'm doing that are

hindering my spiritual well-being? I think that's always hand in hand. Like it's very hard to struggle deeply when you're in a state of grace. And I don't- Just struggle deeply. Mentally, like, so if you're like mental struggle, like, okay, so let me, let me- I guess part of the problem with this is we're trying to separate spiritual from the physical. Which is why I'm having a hard time responding to it,

because I think like certainly, well, I think the focus should go on to the state of your soul, because I think that that is going to help create. This is this is tricky. I'm I'm I'm I'm like, I think it's probably not very good. Do it. I'm biting my words because I understand that there are you can be in a state of great. You can be in a state of grace, certainly, and deeply struggle

with with things that are outside of your control. So go for it. Well, then maybe maybe I'm wrong in this, but I would think that I don't even know what I was going to say now, but that if I am. Maybe if I'm spiritually healthy, right, if I'm right with God, if I'm avoiding serious sin and I'm pursuing intimacy with Christ, okay, then then it feels like I'm now in a place where I have the chance of being emotionally healthy. But if I'm engaged in serious sins and I'm kind of whitewashing those sins, then I'm lying to myself and I'm less likely, that's

less conducive to feeling sort of emotionally calm, I suppose. I don't know. I was going there too with the starting with the state of grace and, and confession in that way. Um, which means, you know, you're avoiding sin at all costs so that you're not, yeah, you have a greater awareness then. Uh, and then you're, you're able to discern more clearly how you might need support, help, um, what's contributing to, to feeling that way, whether it's physical, like we just said about things that are rooting in the gut, or it could be situational.

I mean, there's a lot of things that contribute to mental. Do you meet a lot of Christians that overlook the physical? Because maybe they, I don't know, there's an overemphasis on the spiritual and then a sense that to put any kind of effort on this physical is to be vain or something like that. Do you, what's the main thing you're encountering? I think that we see both. I think that most people who come to reform,

knowing that we're a Christ centered apostolate, have a good sense of faith and and they're attracted to that, and they want to go even deeper. And then with loving care, we trick them into taking care of their bodies as well. Now they have greater capacity to connect with the Lord. I will say though that there's been this like overarching theme of guilt with taking care of the physical person,

with lady and religious, where it's like, this is a waste of time or this is a waste of resources. And I don't just mean, I'm not talking about reform, I mean like eating healthy or, I think there's just a disconnect in that way with approaching our physical wellbeing. which is a disconnect in that way with approaching our physical wellbeing. I have seen people's, not only lives change,

but approach change very much when they realize like they've been tolerating symptoms for years, maybe for decades that they didn't have to, like they didn't have to be fatigued all the time or have brain fog all the time or be in chronic pain all the time. Like that's not. Yeah, I do that.

I just did that because what I noticed is when I went back from carnivores to eating whatever I wanted, I just threw myself into a pit of bread. Oh my gosh. It was wonderful for about five minutes. Yeah. I started aching, like my joint pain came back.

Yeah. And it's a weird thing when you're like, I have joint pain and I hate it, but I'm okay with it. Yeah, it is a difficult thing sometimes. Yeah. Anyway. Well, I certainly wouldn't recommend that people go on carnivore because I don't know, I wouldn't want to speak for that. I'm not a medical professional, I think like that.

But I would recommend that people check out my interview with Cameron, my wife, because it's it's hard to deny results. I think also just typically in an approach, eliminating things for a little a little bit of time, like even if that, I mean, I don't know that necessarily has to be the answer for carnivore, so to speak, but even if you're like, I'm unsure if I have an intolerance to gluten or how I react to sugar, we see over and over again

that sugar can lead to depression and anxiety. I mean, and so like, then take it out for a little while and like let it tell its own story and get curious, but at least 30 days will do so. And it doesn't have to be all of these components. It could just be a few things that, you know, aren't actually making you healthier. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Ooh. Emily says, what are some helpful methods for burnout? Touched out moms to decompress and get back some sanity.

Please pray for me not to lose my mind. That's why I'm laughing with her. She's not a turtle. It was too. Yeah. One, one thing I, one thing I would do with my wife, cause she says touched out exhausted mumps is like, I want to be with my wife frequently. So if I get back from a trip and she's tired, like I, I, I like go have a bath, like go,

let me take the kids. You go. Yeah, and maybe like I would imagine if a wife said to her husband, like, because I imagine if I touched out, she means she's with little kids all day and maybe her husband wants to be with her, that a wife could say like, I love you and I wanna be with you,

but in order for me to really desire to be with you, I think here's what I need. I promise you any husband will be like, done. Right. I really do. Go on. I agree, Matt. I think that what we see often is that mothers in particular take on so much, uh, at home, but often things that are not actually their duty and or like in their immediate need for their family. And so a recommendation I would make is write out all the things you

feel are on your plate right now. Like what is tangibly on your plate and what are the absolutes that have to be there? Like obviously taking care of the kids that are underneath that roof, that's an obligation that is not gonna change. But serving on this committee or this board, or there's these extras sometimes that in seasons can be very, very fruitful, but they're actually the extra things that are burning you out.

And it's really hard because it's usually discerning a lot of goods, or it's the thing that makes you social or has community. But we don't want things in the way of your immediate vocation to be burning you out. And that's a hard thing to discern. But I mean, I would even venture to say that somebody listening to this would exhale at that thought. At the thought of? Letting go of the extra. Of things that are just getting in the way of your primary vocation.

Is that what you mean? Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, that's a really good point, eh? I remember saying to my wife, and she's shared this publicly, so it's okay that I share it, that sometimes, because my wife just, she's so good, She's so big hearted and she just loves to help people. And I remember being a few times like, I need you to stop helping other people.

I need you to help me and the kids right now. And she was humble enough to be like, you're right. That's a difficult thing. All right, what do you got in that bag? Oh, I think it's time to open it. All right, shall I? Please. So you said as we began this interview that you had something in that bag? Oh, I think it's time to open it. All right, shall I? Please. So you said as we began this interview

that you had something in this bag. Oh, I have a brush. All right. You have to. What is this? It's a dry brush. What does that do? It's gonna help you with detoxification.

It's gonna stimulate your lymphatic system, which is gonna, yeah, it's gonna help you detoxify in general. You put it is going to, yeah, it's going to help you detoxify in general. You put it on your skin? Yeah, it's a dry brush. So before the shower, you brush towards the heart. All right.

We're going to send you a little YouTube. Am I allowed to feel very uncomfortable? You're allowed to feel very uncomfortable. All right. It will help you. But that was actually for Cameron. Oh good. I'm so glad.

But you can use it too. I'm So glad to tell me what this is then. Like, do people know what this is? Yeah, people know what that is then. All right. Litany of reform is a prayer that our team wrote. Really? Let's give or do the whole thing. But from the fear that I cannot be well, deliver me Jesus. From the fear that I must heal myself, deliver me Jesus for the, from the temptation to give into discouragement. Beautiful. I like this one from the desire to overhaul my life.

Why is that? So many people hear about reform and they want the Lord to be central in their lives so badly. Like you were read, you know, we, we checked that phone in this interview, but it, and there is a desire then that everything needs to go out the window all at once. And that's not the way that the Lord intends. He wants to do it little by little with him. This is really beautiful from worldly hurry, monotony and gloom.

It's beautiful. Thank you. Yeah, well done. All right, sweet. So we've got some of them. What else do we have in here? Some kind of journal. We've got a journal for your own commitments here. Is there anything in it or is it just lined pages?

It's just for you to write. All right. Oh, there's. OK, I don't know if this. Someone told me this and I found that it helped and I feel a little embarrassed admitting it because it feels kind of feminine. But they said that if you keep like a worry journal by your bed and before you go to bed to write out all that's on your mind, I found it really helpful. It is because then it doesn't live in your brain.

It's on paper. Yeah, I used to. I know it well, Matt. OK, this is an invitation to Christ-centered living. This is the companion that comes with Reform Online. So when you register for Reform Online, that is beautiful. I love it. Your main resource. But for real, though, writing out your worries, that helps. Thursday. Don't laugh. I feel like you're laughing at me. All right. And then this is to the roots for Cameron.

So she already took reform online. OK, yeah, this is the next the next step. So this is our gut healing class. Wow. I would most certainly bring that to her. Thank you. Yeah, thanks so much. And we have I'm presuming a rosary. That is correct. Very good. How do you get people, how are you helping people get away from the fact that this is a feminine, a woman thing? Because even these colors look, this

looks feminine to me. That's okay. No, that's okay. It's great. It's beautiful. We're gonna find. I'm fine with women. I'm just saying how, as a company, are you trying to kind of help people realize? Because you did say you're having husbands who are approaching and men, which is awesome. Has that been have you had to make that effort to show people this is something for me? I think it's more common for women. You're so welcome to reach out for help in these ways. And really, it's just what we've learned. We do work with

a lot of moms who are run down and overwhelmed and feel the pressure to perform or to be or to do outside of their vocation. And I think for us the biggest thing is to remind them that it's enough to be able to serve your family and it's quite a gift to be able to do so. There doesn't have to be more. Husbands often follow. We've seen husbands and wives do it together. And we have seen a lot of athletes come through. I just think that it does seem because I think there's a nurturing of the soul.

There's like a little bit of a feminine touch there. Yeah, I think we're still learning a little bit more about why. One way to get around it, I think, is to get men in is to shame them. Big on shame. So to be like, no, you're right. No, you don't need this. It's way better to be exhausted and fat. Keep trying that. See how well you do. Remember, is that respond to that kind of stuff? Don't ever say that to a woman.

No, no, no. That's beautiful. All right. So what's the first step people can take? See how that's working for you. Don't ever say that to a woman. No. Be exhausted and fat. No. No. That's beautiful. All right. So what's the first step people can take? The website, which we have linked below. Yeah. So reformwellness.co is our website.

The first step to working with us is go through Reform Online, which is, it's available all year round, so you can register anytime. And I think though, man, I'm going to back up a step. And I think the first step is to decide if you. Are ready to let the Lord in even just a little bit, like open the door. Today's gospel, I wrote this to you yesterday. I don't know if you saw it, and then it was today's gospel and I was like, wow. It was, do you want to do well? Uh huh. First thing I turned to, pictures of poo. I just need to know, people know why

we're laughing. You have pictures of poo. Well, there's ways to tell if your stool is healthy. Is there? Should we talk about that for a bit? So, no, I don't want to. OK, good. We're going to talk about the question. Do you want to be well? And I think I, but it was just today's gospel. It was just today's. But I, but I, I thought it was a good talking point in that. I think that's a really honest question. Like, do you really want to be well?

And not just surface well, but like wholly well. And like we know the answer is yes. So I think that that's really the starting point. And then to know that like- What I love about that question, sorry to cut you off, what our Lord asks this, this fella is he allows him to potentially say no. Yeah. And because we're free in that way. And then how often have we really said no? Okay. I don't because I'm right. Like he says, like, well, there are so many other people

and I can't, you know, there's like all these different excuses. And I think it's just, it's, you know, and it says 38 years, like it doesn't matter how long it doesn't matter what your past is like, or the current state of your health is like, you're not disqualified for wholeness or holiness. You know, there's, there's your, you're able to get up and walk. And I think that the question is like, are you willing to journey with the Lord? Like you can't do it on your own and he can't do it on, I mean, he can do it on, on his own, but he wants to do it with you. And, and that's the best part. And then, and then there's like, that's the real freedom.

You know, even going back to the beginning of our conversation, when I saw my sister in these circumstances that nobody would wish, but I saw her, her peace in the Lord. Like it wasn't peace in the situation, but it was peace in knowing like, well, I know you're with me. I know that I'm safe with you.

And like, there's just an unfathomable peace and joy and strength. And that is what, again, being fully alive is. And we're all capable of it. We don't have to do the things that the saints did that were insane. You know, maybe the Lord will stretch us that far, but we do have an opportunity to live well here and now. Or at least live better. Again, I keep going back to Aquinas, which is a fair thing given the name of the show. I think you're right on track. But he kind of builds on what Aristotle has to say about happiness, New Dimonia, by pointing out that the perfection of our nature can't happen until heaven. So he makes this distinction between beatitude, which is what we'll experience in heaven,

and felicitude in this life. And I really like that. So his point is perfect happiness is not possible in this life. Isn't that nice? Speaking about an exhale. Wow. Yeah, it's not this is a vail of tears. So whatever like what did you say to live a reformed or a healthy or your best life? Like cannot mean perfection and fulfillment in the complete sense. So that's nice to know too. I mean, I think that it's just the progress, right? Like how can I move forward in the health of my soul, in the state of my soul, in the current state of my body, like just a little bit higher, a little bit more forward on the path. Because you're right, I think people

get paralysed by perfection. Like it's like, well, if I can't do this perfectly right now, I'm not going to do it. It's like, there's never going to be a convenient time to make these changes. Yeah, I really like that saying progress over perfection. What do people mean by that? There are, I mean, I'm like a recovering perfectionist and I've come a long way. We used to joke around that I was a type A and somebody said, no, you're a triple A. And I was like, Whoa. And now I always will ask Dr. Bridger, like, do you think I'm in the bees yet? Have I made it down there? But I think that there is, you know,

my desire really actually came from like, I wanted to do things well. But it wasn't like to be accepted solely or to be a certain way. I was like, I wanted to like challenge myself, like I wanted to achieve. And I think that that that is healthy to a degree. But sometimes it would stop me from just doing things period if I knew I couldn't perfect it right then and there. Or, you know, maybe judging something that I didn't do perfectly, but missing out on the joy of the progress that was made in that realm. Yeah.

I mean, there's different ways of saying it. Don't let the great be the enemy of the good. Or what something you could do that you would do that would make your life better or progress over perfection? Yeah. Well, listen, thank you for coming on the show. Thank you so much for having me. It's been great. All right.