Pints With Aquinas - What to do When Marriage Gets Hard (Jason & Crystalina Evert) | Ep. 542

Episode Date: September 24, 2025

In this interview, Matt sits down with not just one, but two special guests: Jason and Crystalina Evert. The conversation is all about marriage, particularly how to navigate the tough times in marriage and parenthood with your spouse and come out on the other side stronger than ever before. Plus, at the end, Jason & Crystalina answer questions from Locals supporters. 🍺 Want to Support Pints With Aquinas? 🍺 Get episodes a week early and join exclusive live streams with me! Become an annual supporter at 👉 https://mattfradd.locals.com/support 💵 Show Sponsors:  👉 College of St. Joseph the Worker:  https://www.collegeofstjoseph.com/mattfradd 👉 Catholic Chemistry — Intentional Catholic dating: https://www.catholicchemistry.com/?utm_source=matt&utm_medium=website 👉  Truthly – The Catholic faith at your fingertips: https://www.truthly.ai/ 👉 Hallow – The #1 Catholic prayer app: https://hallow.com/mattfradd  💻 Follow Me on Social Media: 📌 Facebook: https://facebook.com/mattfradd 📸 Instagram: https://instagram.com/mattfradd 𝕏 Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/Pints_W_Aquinas 🎵 TikTok: https://tiktok.com/@pintswithaquinas 👕 PWA Merch – Wear the Faith! Grab your favorite PWA gear here: https://shop.pintswithaquinas.com

I once heard someone say to me, don't ever compare your inside to someone else's outside. Very good. And that's excellent advice for the individual, but certainly for marriage. That's huge, and I felt like I had to fit in that box. That was, I went in with this mindset like, okay, well now I have to do this and I have to do this

and I have to dress this way and I have to fit into this Catholic mold because frankly I went in so handicapped. It was a challenge, you know, just a few weeks, I would say, you know, into the marriage, you know, when we start having disagreements and realize like, okay, okay, take care of this stuff that you need to take care of before you get into marriage and instead of thinking that marriage is a car wash, that this is a magical ring and you put it on and like your Frodo and you can just do all this brand new stuff.

I think you're the best wife and husband until you're actually become one. I mean, it's like putting hydrogen peroxide on a wound, it starts fizzing pretty good. Because I was struggling so much in marriage and I didn't know what was going on. I didn't know why I was so angry and I was just like, oh, all the time. But on the outside to everyone, I had it together. I had that Instagram perfect thing going on, right? But, man, I shut the door and I'd be a mess. But my message was still relevant.

I didn't lie because it's never too late to start over. I did have a horrible. I had this huge conversion. And that was my mission when I first started speaking about chastity, just screaming to the rooftops to young women. Like, it doesn't matter who you are, where you've been, what you've done. All that matters is where you go from here. Like, God can restore you, can start over.

You are worthy of love, right? no matter what's happened to you. Good-day, everybody. Matt Frad here. The reason I am sitting in the middle of this table is I am interviewing two beautiful people, Jason and Kristallina Everett. This is the first time we've done three people in one interview, and it was an amazing interview. I truly believe this will be maybe one of the most important interviews I've done for a long time.

and it's going to be it's going to bring about great comfort and healing especially to married couples especially those in difficult marriages this was a very vulnerable and intimate interview it'll also be a blessing to those who are looking toward marriage so watch it and please share it not for my sake but for the sake of those who might stumble across it I really really but you'll see what I mean when we jump into this. Before we go any further, many of you have been subscribing to the channel, and I want to say thank you so much for that. It's a really quick, free, easy way to support the channel. So if you haven't done that yet, please click subscribe and the bell button because it really helps us out. God bless. Jason and Kristina Everett, this is wonderful to have

you. Thanks for happiness. It's good to be back. So I always tell this story, but I'll never tire of it. I had just met my wife maybe for three days. And she's wearing this chastity shirt. So you know she's a keeper. She was super cool, bright orange shirt. Virginity Rocks kind of thing? It was one of those 90s. It said something like on the back,

call me frigid, call me uptight, call me a prude. And then at the bottom it said, just don't call me for sex until you call me your wife. It was like 90s, sassy t-shirts. I'm not playing hard to get. But it told me what to do. So I was like, all right, well, I'll do that.

But she was telling me all about chastity. And I was a Catholic for about two or three years at this point. And I didn't understand why the church asked us to save sexual marriage. I was inclined to accept it, but it didn't mean much to me. So she gives me this CD. And it was this chastity talk from Jason Everett. And I went back to my room because I wanted to have material to talk to her about the next day. And I listened to it.

And it was one of your public school talks. Okay. So I actually thought, and this is a, this. this is a sad thing to say, there's no way this guy's Christian, it's too good. You know, you're talking about a movie, you might think that. But Jason, it really blast me tremendously.

And so it's been an honor to kind of get to know you over the years, to see the great work that the two of you have done, where you'll go on stage and you, Christalina, I think quite bravely, kind of open up your life. And that's beautiful. What we want to do today is not talk so much about but talk about marriage.

And I think the danger for us in public ministry, whether you have a podcast or you're speaking or writing books, is that we're continually maybe willing to open up what happened back then, but not so much right now and maybe what we're going through. And so I want us, I think this is going to be a beautiful balm for married people. Because, you know, my wife and I do shows together,

and people go, you guys are so in love, it's so beautiful. And that's true. Like we actually do have a good marriage, but we're also on our best behavior when we're doing a podcast, right? And it bothers me sometimes because I fear that there are people out there with their myriad of problems and their struggles and why isn't marriage the way I thought it would be. And I don't want people to feel alone in their struggles. And so today I thought it would be beautiful just to sort of talk about the reality of marriage, the trials that y'all have had in your own marriage. And then people have asked some very beautiful and vulnerable questions about their own marriage. that we'll get to later.

So, thank you. And so to start, maybe we can just, I could ask, when y'all were engaged and going through marriage prep, first of all, what was that like? Did it prepare you the way you had hoped? And what was your vision? I'm sure your visions will be different

of what married life would look like. Yeah, well, I mean, I was raised in a family. And my parents had been married 50 plus years and I've never seen them fight once. I'm sure there's moments where they had their disagreements, but they must have resolved it behind closed doors and an amical way in front of us.

It was just a very peaceful, harmonious. They just got together. Well, you know, and I know some married couple say, yeah, we've been married 80 years, and all we argue about is where to go have dinner. I'm like, oh, well, that seems to be nice. Yeah. But for us, it was different.

So that was a blessing in the sense that I got to see what a really stable marriage looked like, but a curse in the sense that I don't know how to resolve conflict. And that when it hits the fan, like, what do you do? And so, yeah, when we went through marriage prep, I mean, God bless the diocese, but I don't remember really gaining much out of that at all in terms of the crosses that would await us within the sacrament of marriage and just kind of went in there, bright-eyed and bushy-tailed of like, this is going to be like living in the theology of the body, and it's just going to be like an endless honeymoon, and it's been a route. And I think, you know, people look, oh, Jason and Crystal, you know, you write how to find your soulmate without losing your soul and you guys did all the theology body, you know, and they kind of idolize in a sense the idea. of what they think our marriage must be,

and therefore their marriage must look like as well. And it sets up, I think, a false expectation of the reality that Christ crucified is going to visit everybody in their vocation at one point or another. And then before we get to Christelina, oh, okay, I guess you shared that endless honeymoon. I guess you hoped that your marriage would look in some way like your parents did.

Yeah, it was just hard to imagine that it wouldn't. You know, and then we had our challenges and trials and dating engagement or whatever, but I don't really remember anything. kind of hand-holding us like through that focus test that you take. I mean, I know one priest who instead of giving the couples the focus test, he gives them the annulment paperwork when they're engaged, all hundred-plus questions. And he's like, we're doing this now, not later.

And he makes a deep dive into all those questions as part of marriage preparation. And, you know, not only do we not get that, the focus test that we did do, I'm like, oh, okay, there's some red flags, but we'll figure it out and kind of just one head steam, jump in. I it was hard because the fact he didn't know he didn't know I don't know he never saw fighting I felt like I was walking into this leave it to beaver like episode he wanted to live forever and that was not my life you know I came from a really rough background and in all honesty and this this sounds crazy but I never saw a woman submit to a man in a good godly holy

way growing up and none of my family remember like I didn't see it at all it was like something you just don't do, right? So it was, it was, I didn't realize how broken I was going into marriage. I knew I had some healing, especially from things that happened while I was in high school and the party and before my conversion, just things that I did and I dabbled with or got into. So when we got married, all of my brokenness and my old life and everything, I really went into marriage, Matt, thinking, I'm leaving all this crap outside the church and I'm starting this new fairy tale with Jason And a part of me, honestly, which it sounds, maybe it sounds bad to some people, but this is where I was at, like, I didn't feel worthy to have such a good guy because of everything I had been through an experience and I was so bad. And I had this conversion. And God can make all things new, right? But at the same time, I also felt like this, am I going to be really good enough? Is it going to like work out the way out? Like there were a lot of fears too because of my brokenness. But I just didn't feel. worthy of such a good guy, right?

And did you trust that he was as good as you had believed him to be? Or did you think at some point old guys end up being the way I experienced them maybe when I was younger? I just had a distorted view of how men were because I was so hurt by them, right? And so, but God really healed a lot in me before marriage. But I really thought, okay, I'm just starting over. You're leaving all this crap outside the suit that stays out and you walk down into this like new life and fairy tale that I thought our marriage was going to be. and I didn't realize I was just like this handicap walking down the aisle of going into marriage, honestly, and that's hard to say, you know, but at the same time, it was the truth,

but God can restore and God can heal. And there's a reason God brought Jason into my life, and God taught and keeps teaching him things through our marriage and through my woundedness and through his own woundedness, even now today, right? but God can do great things, but it's a misconception that you're going to go and, and you make these like vows almost like, well, I'm not going to be like my mom. I'm not going to be like my family. I'm going to do things different, right? A lot of us say that and go into marriage. But, well, excuse me, Kristolina, but what makes you think that? Because all you have is a box

of broken tools you were handed. So how are you going to do things differently? And I realized that years later, but I was operating out of a toolbox of just broken tools. that I was handed to me. So yes, I wanted to do things different, but wanting and doing and being capable of that are very different things, so. How long did it, I mean, did that idea that this is gonna, my baggage is out there,

we've got this princess kind of marriage, how long did that last until you realized, oh no. Oh no. Basically as soon as we got back from Bora Bora, I think. We were there for two weeks. We had the most unbelievable. We were so blessed on our honeymoon. I'm seriously, it was like, this is happening.

It was amazing. It was really just this, like, awesome fairy tale honeymoon. We're going to go back there in 25. Tell me about this place. I want to go there. Sounds great. Oh, my gosh. We were so spoiled because God knew that, like, we were going to our Getsemini.

When we were getting home, I mean, he really blessed us. We had an overwater bungalow, you know, where basically the floor of the room is glass. And you get to see the turquoise waters and the sharks swimming underneath the bungalow. And you wake up, there's just breathtaking. Yeah. I mean, island motu. over this turqu—I mean, it was just everything the postcards are and more, you know. But as she said, you know, she was raised where I never saw my parents fight, and she never

saw her parents get along. And it was almost like this perfect storm that was coming together the same—you know, I don't know if it's Chesterton or who said that. Marriage is at its core is a mutual misunderstanding. You know, we're going into this, you know, this idea of what it is. and then but but god has a funny way of healing us all through our afflictions and it's a weird thing that you know a loving father could allow his children to be afflicted in a particular way so like you know her wounds are drawing out needed healing inside of me you know and vice versa my own wounds are helping to heal her in a different way so my wife has this line she often says she says I think our wounds are rubbing up against each other so like my defenses come out and I go up against

her defenses and it's not good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so fight, flight, freeze. I mean, we're discovering all the different mechanisms that we've adopted over the years. I mean, y'all were quite popular, successful in your apostolate, right?

In the sense that you're reaching, how many people a year at that time were you speaking to? More than 100,000 kids a year in-person. You're writing books on chastity. You're writing books on love. So I'd love to know, because, I mean, we all have little fights and little struggles. I remember for me, I had a groomsman stay in our apartment while we went on our honeymoon.

And he just stayed a day or two before leaving back to Canada, but he had left food around the house without cleaning up. So we get back from our honeymoon into this apartment and there's like mold in bowls and it was disgusting. And I was like, well, hey, I'm going to go have a nap. So I went to the bed and had a nap and woke up to my wife like vacuuming into my bed. Let's go back to the honeymoon.

This isn't good at all. Like what is happening? So we all, I mean, we all experienced. that, but I suppose for y'all, what was it like when you hit turbulence, I suppose, in your marriage? When did that happen? And what was it like, perhaps, with the extra pressure of being these awesome Catholic chastity speakers? Well, I mean, it hit pretty soon. And I was pregnant, like, what, three, four weeks into marriage? I mean, it was like super fast. And it was a tough pregnancy, too. It was really bad. And then when our son was born, he had all kinds of health

complications, allergic even to Crystal's breast milk. And we had to sew gloves onto his pajamas because he'd scratch himself bloody because of the pain of the itchiness and the eczema. And we were in and out of these different hospitals and doctors and specialists. And almost the only way he could fall asleep was while driving in a car with the cool windows down and everything. And then he'd finally get to sleep. And I'd just carefully bring him inside and sit him down. He'd sleep for two or three hours, wake up, feed, get upset. And I'd have to drive him around the neighborhood, you know, two, three times a night to try to get him back to sleep. So sleep deprivation, you know, is a form of human torture when you add that into a marriage

and then you try to communicate through all that. But I mean, it was a challenge, you know, just a few weeks, I would say, you know, into the marriage, you know, when we start having disagreements and realize like, okay, as a single, you got a roommate maybe, you know, somebody you surf with and it's like you get along 99.99% unless he like uses all like the grilled chicken in the fridge and he didn't buy some more for you or whatever. Like there's, I mean, your selfishness isn't tested that much and then all the sudden it's put on the stand and all the virtues that you thought you had prior to marriage you know your faults come to the surface like oil and water you know because god is doing what he wants the sacrament to do which is heal and

purify the both of you in a painful way i mean it's like putting hydrogen peroxide on a wound it starts fizzing pretty good i think you're the best wife and husband and to actually become one like in your mind you're the best like you're going to be this and then you actually become one and you're just humbled, like, unbelievably, just like in parent, parenthood, and you become a mother, and it's just like, oh, I remember my sister told me, I'm gonna be such a better mother than you.

But not in a bad way and laughing and like, you're such a messes, but like poking at me, but at the same time, I was like, just you wait. And then once she became a mother, she's like, oh my gosh, I get it, I get it, right? And I think it was the same thing in a marriage, but also I didn't, I honestly didn't think I was gonna be able to have children.

I had to go to Dr. Hilders, and he had to have, And he had to do a surgery on me because my endometriosis was so severe and so bad and painful, like debilitating. It's the same as my wife. Did you know that? It was brutal. And so Jason knew about, I knew nothing about it and all of that. And they wanted to just put me on birth control and like birth control for everything, you know.

Not Hilges. No, the four doctors we saw before. Yeah, before. I mean, every doctor because it was like so painful and it was really hurting just my way of life. And everything was birth control. but I had been on birth control prior because in high school in my crazy life, I knew what it was going to do to me. And I just,

I wouldn't go back to that poison, right? And so we went to Dr. Hilders and thank God, because every time someone wants to put you on birth control, it's almost like they're putting a Band-Aid on this massive gaping wound, and they just keep like, pop that pill, just pop that pill. And it's just getting bigger and bigger. And thank God I did go to Dr. Hilders, and I didn't take the birth control of that little Band-Aid

because I had, what, two benign tumors, was the size of golf balls growing on my ovaries. And I wouldn't have been able to have kids. They just would have kept growing and growing and growing. It probably would have had to have a hysterectomy. So if I would have listened to those doctors, you know, and I took their poison to, like, correct, it wasn't even going to correct it.

It's just this band-aid down the road. I would have had massive problems. So God really protected me. And I feel like they kept telling me, we don't know if you're going to be able to have kids because it was so bad. This is when we were engaged. Uh-huh.

And Dr. Hilders just opened the well springs of life. in me because we, after John Paul, which I didn't expect. So I go into marriage with this mindset, Matt, thinking, oh, it's not going to be for a year. We might even have a hard time to, boom, you just became a wife. And now, bam, you're a mom. And I'm just, it really kind of set me back. And it's not that it wasn't happy when I found it. We were pregnant.

But I was, I think, terrified. I didn't expect. I was already just like, wow, I'm a wife now and everything's changed and getting used to this, right? And then all of a sudden, boom, I'm a mom. It just was a lot. Like, I felt this like one, two punch. and a little taken out. So I feel like in our marriage,

especially in the very beginning, I just didn't get to settle into being a wife and being in our groove because I was so sick. So it's like, okay, three weeks, four weeks into marriage, I just started not feeling right and just like it took a toll on me. And so that was like our first like year of marriage. So I think a part of me even was a little resentful.

Like why couldn't I be a wife? Like, why couldn't I? It's beautiful because it's honest. I know that, you know, as Catholics, Not that I don't love my son. I don't want to be here and see that. Yeah, that's a thing. As Catholics, we feel the need, right,

to not just condemn abortion, but to speak about the beauty of life and the importance of having many children. And so I imagine I know there's a lot of parents who might feel kind of shame when they get pregnant real quick. And they don't know what to do with that emotion. They think it's something wrong with me.

That's what I'm thrilled about this. And I think the answer is no, but I'd love to explore that. Yeah, I mean, some people will say to me, well, you know, we don't want to have kids for the first two or three years because we really want to get to know each other.

And, you know, I kind of say, well, have kids. You'll get to know each other real good. Like the good, the bad, the ugly. But yeah, I think there's a lot of false shame, you know, of thinking like, okay, why is marriage so hard on me? Why is parenthood so hard? I must be the deficient one because, you know,

I look and everybody else has these blissful, perfect marriages. And it's just not reality. And that's why I thought it'd be just good coming on the show, not that we're all healed and we have everything figured out, but that we can speak from our wounds and from the things that we've done to help encourage people beforehand to kind of take care of the stuff

that you need to take care of before you get into marriage and instead of thinking that marriage is a carwash that this is a magical ring and you put it on and like your Frodo and you can just do all this brand new stuff and like yeah, there are objective graces that come with the sacrament of marriage that you can tap into

but in terms of the wounds, the trauma, the deficiencies in our own virtues it's like no, the more you can dedicate yourself to your healing process prior to the marriage, the better that you can make a gift of yourself to your spouse in marriage. I remember a woman calling me, very solid, beautiful Catholic woman, and she was just honest with my wife and I and said, I actually am more sympathetic to women who have an abortion,

not because she didn't realize that that was an abominable, heinous thing to do, but because she can now get in the mindset of a woman who's like, oh, this could just be taken care of really quickly, because she had all these plans she wanted to accomplish, and of course she didn't do that, but I do think there's something really beautiful about kind of allowing yourself to be honest with where you are because God doesn't love who we think we should be but aren't because who we think we should be but aren't doesn't exist. Grace builds upon nature and that pertains to us individually so we can just be who we are but also our marriages and when we think our marriage should look a certain way and we pretend

that it's a certain way well that's something that's an illusion it's nothing so God can't work with that. I once heard someone say to me don't ever compare your inside to someone else's outside. Very good. And that's an excellent advice for the individual, but certainly for for marriage. No, that is, that's huge. And I felt like I had to fit in that box. That was, I went in with this mindset like, okay, well, now I have to do this and I have to do this and I have to dress this way and I have to like fit into this Catholic mold because frankly, I went in so handicap, I was trying to be something or fill those gaps or those wounds or like the things that I lacked. I thought there was a certain, like almost this persona and that like Kimberly Hahn kind of.

kind of right and god bless her she's amazing she's helped so many women but that's what i long for and i really wanted but no one ever taught me that nobody ever taught me my mom was building empires and companies and i was raised by a nanny a lot of the time you know and she was a single mom and my father left when i was two and that was a mess but i didn't grow up with a man around but i grew up with a very um self-sufficient confident business like mindset woman mother and she took very good care. She did her best that she could. She handed down the faith to us. But at the same time, it was just like, okay, well, I learned at a very young age. Don't trust men. You have to be self-sufficient and you have to learn the stock market. You have to just be very, like, well, competent

and be able to take care of yourself because eventually he's going to leave you. So just be ready for that. And I always in my mind, always had plan B because that's all I saw. So what else was I'm going to kind of project in the marriage? But when I got to, to marriage and I really learned my Catholic faith and like wanted to, I actually wanted to be that stay at home. I wanted those things, but you just don't, like, it doesn't just turn on. You think something's going to turn on when you get married or when you become a mom and their graces are there. But I didn't realize how incredibly broken I was and what I brought into marriage, which was really unfair for Jason. And if I actually knew, because I didn't find out until years later

of counseling, like I had to go to counseling. And I, I found out that I was sexually abused when I was little and I suppressed that. And it came out because I was struggling so much in marriage and I didn't know what was going on. I didn't know why I was always so angry and I was just like, oh, all the time. But on the outside to everyone, I had it together. I had that Instagram perfect thing going on, right? But man, I shut the door and I'd be a mess. But my message was still relevant.

I didn't lie because it's never too late to start over. I did have a horrible. I had this huge conversion. And that was my mission when I first started. speaking about chastity just screaming to the rooftops to young women like it doesn't matter who you are where you've been what you've done all that matters is where you go from here like god can restore you can start over you are worthy of love right no matter what's happened to you um but at the same time this was like a whole new like journey god was taking me on of like okay let's really get into this

and and it was ugly and it was scary and it was overwhelming and here i have a husband and i have kids and I just felt so broken and I would go to adoration and I felt Jesus kept telling me well you need counseling and I literally looked directly at the Eucharist and say no and I'd walk out of adoration like I was not having it I just was not having it right and deep down we all know what we're supposed to do you know it just it's about the obedience of following through and doing that and I wasn't having it because I grew up with everyone telling me you don't talk to people you don't go pay someone because you're crazy and you have these problems. I mean, you must really have issues if you're going to pay someone to listen to your crap.

You know, I mean, it was harsh. But I realize now after my healing, well, they want to keep things secret. They didn't want you talking to anyone, right? They wanted to fear you into that. And so I believe them. But once I did go to counseling and all of this kind of came up that I was sexually abused when I was a little girl, I made so much sense to myself, though, right? why I did certain things, why I loved a certain way, why I had a hard time with certain things

within marriage. And I made so much sense in that moment to myself, which was a relief, like, that's why, finally, you know. But then at the same time, the ground fell beneath me. And then we went into a deeper, like, dive of just, like, our own Getseminian marriage of when I was going through that. It was really difficult and really hard. And we didn't expect it, but it made sense, right? Thank you for sharing that. So what was it like when you realized, or we're not just dealing with things

that Mary Cup was dealing with, there's maybe more here. Yeah. No, at first you're looking at the fruits of the arguments of the distance, of the difficulty to build connection and consistent intimacy on an emotional, spiritual, physical level.

But I remember Dr. Bob Schutz has this great kind of image that typically there's a wound and that's kind of the root system of everything. and if that wound isn't really treated and it's kind of just kind of swept over, you know, lies will grow out of that particular wound

of like you're not wanted, you're not safe, you can't trust men, you're not enough, you know, those types of, you know, lies will grow out of that. And when those lies reach maturity, they bear fruit, whether it's during her high school years of her party lifestyle or just the distance within the marriage. You see all of this fruit and it gets all the attention. And so you're sitting here trying to snip off the fruit

and then you wait a week, and then it just sprouts right back. It's because that's gaining nourishment from the lies that are rooted in the wounds that aren't being treated. And so whether it's pornography addiction or whatever type of fruit that gets all the attention or self-harm or this or that, everybody focuses on the fruit, but we've really got to get down to that and disturb the root system of like, okay, what was going on? What lies have you believed out of those wounded places?

And so, you know, she was, you know, operating out of that hurt without realize. it. And then as a husband, you know, I don't think anyone, especially in marriage prep, I mean, God bless. I mean, I've done marriage prep classes for couples. And it's, I mean, that's not really marriage. I mean, that's triage is a better name for what's going on there of just like, okay, we got 10 weeks. Let's get the house in order. They're literally spending more time on their wedding preparing than on the marriage. That like, you can statistically look at the hours. And it's far more going into wedding prep than marriage prep. But I don't think what I was prepared for is that in every vocation, there's going to be an aloneness in your vocation.

And a lot of times, you know, people think, well, that's priest, that's celibacy, and you're going to have to sort that out. But there's a particular aloneness that's unique to the sacrament of marriage. I heard a priest once say that the only path to holiness is through a loneliness, not loneliness of total isolation, but a loneliness of you in Christ. That you might, because of all the sacraments, we can only worship one. you know we can worship the blessed sacrament and that's it the other six are not up for worship and a lot of times we begin to idolize marriage and to think that is just going to be such a

fulfillment of all my desires and in some ways it is you know a partial fulfillment but only god deserves the crown and if you put that crown of the peace of your heart and everything on to another person the weight of that will crush them and so what'll end up happening is you enter into this period of disillusionment and aloneness. But Christ is inviting us, in a sense, into the desert. Because if we don't go into the desert, Christ will draw us out there. The Holy Spirit will send us into this desert to meet him. And, you know, so for the darkest times in our marriage of just feeling so alone,

where I would go, especially to the Psalms, and I would read the Psalms of Desolation, and eventually you could start just breathing them. Because the Psalms are the prayer about Christ, you know, of Christ, and by Christ. So he inspired them, he prayed them, and they're about his passion, death, and resurrection. So what I would do is I would find a psalm of desolation, and it's about a third of them. And I would pray it once, just from me to the Father. And then I would pray it a second time imagining Christ pray it to the Father during his passion, whether it's the Garden or on the cross. And then I would pray a third time with Christ to the Father.

And in doing so, I discover that in the darkest times of suffering in our marriage, it pivoted my question from God, like, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far away from me? It changed the question to Christ, like, why have you come so close to me in this suffering? Like, why have you come so close to me that I can breathe the Psalms? And so I discovered that in the suffering, in the aloneness that I was going through in this time of isolation from her and all the woundedness, Christ was drawing me back to himself in a way that I hadn't been without that suffering. My wife and I went back. This doesn't happen. as much now, but I would say it did 10 years ago and before that, we might get into an argument

because she's done something objectively wrong that she needs to apologize for, but she's being too prideful. And I lose it. And then when I lose it, it becomes all about how I lost it. And fair enough, because me losing is actually worse than what she did. And consequently, I remember saying to her, I feel like we're never getting around to your stuff. So my question for you is, was that a temptation not to look at whatever stuff you had under the hood? Because hers was so much louder, if I'm understanding that correctly. No, it's true, yes. No, it's false.

I was perfect. Okay. Our marriage isn't perfect because she's not perfect because if she was, everything would be fine. You see what I'm dealing with on a daily basis feel though? Yeah, but I think it's a good question. No, for sure, because hers was so loud, you know, symbolically and literally.

And so it's just my selfishness with my, you know, my pride, my ego, my lack of forgiveness, my lack of patience, you know, that stuff was getting covered over just because of, you know, her little explosions here and there just be like, that's the problem and the ways that I might be triggering those things or deflecting blame. Yeah, I mean, hers was so loud.

My stuff was kind of like, you know, you're telling me this is the problem. No, no, no, you're the problem. And it's not to say that a spouse can't be the primary problem within a marriage. I'm not saying you were. But I'm just saying in any way, yeah, of course that can be a reality,

but it can also just sort of, our eyes are on you the whole time and we don't even begin to see. And consequently, I wonder what it's like when the spouse who's maybe more of a problem starts to go to healing. And maybe it's only well down the line in your marriage that the other person starts to realize

what they've been justifying and how they need to grow. Yeah, because it started with like, you need to go to counseling. Before we were married, you need to work on this stuff. And she accepted the point, like, yeah, there's some junk that I haven't processed and just a little bit prior to marriage.

and then in marriage was able to dive more deeply into it, but it was still predominantly her. And then, you know, I would come as invited, you know, to sit down. And we've been very outspoken throughout our ministry like, hey, we go to marriage counseling. Like when we hit tough patches, we go, there's no shame in saying, oh, yeah, you know, we're the theology of body people, we're the how to find your soulmate couple. And we're going to marriage counseling because, like, we're hitting these patches and we're not knowing how to get through this stuff. But it only has been more recently where it's like, okay, I need to go without us, without her.

and I need to start processing stuff of, you know, how I handle trauma and things that I've been through. Because I did have kind of like a Leave it to Beaver upbringing. You know, my parents got along really well. You know, I don't have any significant trauma back then. And it was almost like too good to be true kind of upbringing. And so I just wasn't seasoned in a certain way for the crosses that would come within marriage. But only recently if I started to dive into my own counseling process and I don't like it at all. I want to say a big thanks to the College of St. Joseph, the Worker, based in Stubanville, Ohio.

You'll recognize many of their faculty and fellows from the show, people like Dr. Andrew Jones, Dr. Jacob Imam, Dr. Mark Barnes, Dr. Alex Plato. Listen to this. Their program combines the rigor of an elite bachelor's degree with the practicality of training in the skilled trades, and their tuition model is structured so that students graduate without crippling debt. if you're a bright young man thinking about what college to go to apply to a place where you not only learn the good but gain the power to do it apply to the college of st joseph the worker if you're a parent look into this college for your children and if you're not in either category just consider supporting the mission go to college of st joseph dot com slash matt frad to learn more that's college of st joseph dot com slash matt frad to learn more there will be a link below thanks like it's like You know, I was talking to the other day, and he's like, well, how is this going for you? I'm like, I don't like it. You shut up. I'm like, can I go do something?

Like, I could get so many emails done at this time that we're sitting. And it started to realize my own addiction to productivity and how I run to doing, doing, because I just don't want to be. And just the, even in prayer, you know, I think when we are getting started in the interior life, the devil's tactic is to distract us from prayer. You're too busy. Got a lot of the stuff to do. And if he doesn't succeed in that, he tries to distract us. us during prayer, you know, look, there's a squirrel. And there's other things that we, you know, and we're just kind of,

and then we kind of plow through that. And then the final stage of distraction, I think he gives us is to distract us with prayer in the sense that, okay, I'm going to do my rosary, I'm going to do my office. I'm going to do my Bible around do, do, do, do, do, do, and I'm done. I did my prayer. I got my holy hour, I did my thing, and I'm out. And God's like, well, I want to tell you, oh, I'll get you next time. Like, there's no room for quiet.

There's no room for receptivity. There's no time for just being loved by the father because I just got to do my stuff. And so I've started to grow to realize how much my own addiction to productivity has infected my interior life. Did you feel like a, this is a question for both of you, but since you just answered,

did you feel like a hypocrite? Getting up on stages, people recognizing you as these beautiful Catholic people, or as you say from the beginning, we're like, no, never, because I was always very open about how we were going to therapy or whatever. Because I think everyone very comfortably says, hey, I'm a sinner with maybe too much comfort

because no one's like, hey, I like to masturbate sometimes. Nobody does that, you know? And so I think like generically, yeah, we struggle sometimes in our marriage. That sounds way better than I did this thing that's so shameful that I don't even know how to forgive myself. Yeah. So did you feel like a hypocrite? And then how did you? I didn't feel a sense of duplicity because I felt like, no, like we're, I mean, we picked for the Bible, the gospel reading of our wedding mass, the crucifixion.

Don't do that. Don't do it. That is such the choice of someone who went through Stubanville University in the 90s. No, I was mad at him at one point, like, why did you set our foundation on Calvary? Everybody does the wedding feast, you know, we got to shake it up a little bit. And we did that one, and then we did the book of Tobit as well, of the healing with Raphael the Archangel. And it's like, there were prophetic things taking place that we didn't even realize. They're like, oh, this would be nice.

And I like that passage. And God's like, okay, you know, I'm writing a poem for you guys without you guys even knowing it. But no, I can't say that I ever felt a sense of duplicity because I knew I wasn't going home and looking at pornography and getting drunk and gambling all the stuff. I was living out, like she said, kind of our own Gitsemite.

And it was just a, it was very mysterious to me. Well, how about not hypocrisy? Because fair enough, right? Hypocrisy isn't failing to live up to your own standards. It's demanding that everybody else live up to a standard that you don't think applies to you in a sense, right? So that's fair. Okay, but what about did you feel a kind of awkwardness

when people would run up to you and look at you as if you guys have a perfect marriage without any problems. What was that like? Because I know for me, like sometimes I'll get into an argument with my wife, or I'll do something that's kind of crummy right before I got to get up and sound kind of Christian-y

and I think, oh, and then I really, you know, and then, okay, glory to Jesus Christ, like I'm your broken instrument. And any good that happens is because of you and acknowledging that, but I can still be awkward. We never put ourselves on a pedestal. We were put there, right? And that's the first thing.

And second thing, I've always been very open about my brokenness, my wounds, my shortcomings, and that I don't have, I didn't have the perfect background, and I don't have the perfect marriage, and it's hard, and it's difficult. But I think the difference between just like, I think, saints and people and people that are, like, striving for that holiness is that we keep showing up to our fight, and I'm proud of that. I'm proud of where we've come from, the things we've gone through.

I mean, the depth of the darkness that we have had to face in our marriage, and yet we're still here. And God is with us and his light and his beauty and his grace has abounded all of that. But man, was there a time of stripping and just like questioning and just like anger and just frustration and resentment and all of the things? But at the same time, I'm not less than our marriage isn't less than because I'm still fighting. I'm still striving for that grace, that holiness that God is calling me to in this filth, in this brokenness, in my wounds and our marriage wounds, it's like we never are giving up the fight. And I think that's something to be proud of. That is something to proclaim like, I don't care how hard it gets.

I don't care how deep the darkness is. I don't care what's going on. Jesus is there. If you see it, you feel it, maybe you're losing your fate. He's still going to stick with you. And isn't that what we all want anyway? we want that person that sees your ugly, seize your wounds,

sees your brokenness, and he's all in. He's like, I'm not going anywhere. I love you. I'm here. And I'll go to bat. And there's nothing that's going to separate me from you

except you yourself in our own sin, right? But like Jesus is there. He's present. And even if we're giving up, he doesn't give up on us. And I've experienced that where I'm like, get away from me.

Like I don't want you. Like, don't look at me. Like it's too, it hurts me too much. to see like have you look at me almost right 100% understand that but then in that that's actually where we were talking about this in my book group I have this amazing book group I go to at my church and these amazing women that had just helped me in my darkest of times even in our marriage and and we were actually just talking about Matt about like what does it mean to be Jesus beloved

like when he says you are my beloved because it's just like oh okay like you it's hard to like take that in because you don't feel like a beloved you know low does that even look like But I really contemplated on that. And I think it shocked them when I said, you know, I actually felt for the first time in my life, Jesus beloved, or I said I could actually experience and like really feel that, right, is when he was tending to my wounds and I was so broken. I actually felt him there. I'm like, he was actually just loving me. I felt so immersed in his love, I think, because I was in so much darkness and, in so much pain and there was so much happening that only he could go to that place,

but actually in that darkest, the most shameful time in my life, that's when I felt like his beloved, right? But I was so weak and broken and to be able to admit that, but I don't care how bad your marriage gets. I don't care what things have happened. Nothing can separate you from God, just always pursuing you in that. And the grace is there, but you have to want it. because I think a lot of the times we're so mad at ourselves and we hate ourselves because of certain things that we've done. We know we've done them, but we're guilty. So we want to just push it away and get prideful and not feel it.

But at the same time, that's also when you could push Jesus away. And you kind of are just like, just get away. Because I've had that in my life, you know? And it's been hard. But at the same time, I think that's when my relationship has exponentially grown because of those times. and I just surrendered it. Because at some point you're fighting,

and then you just, you have to surrender because you're screwing it all up, right? And you think you're not. I think what's difficult is if I had that experience of consolation and Christ's nearness in the depths of despair, it would make it bearable. And maybe I can look back and see that Christ was there.

But I think what's so disheartening for many of us is when the struggles of daily life just seems so... Death by a thousand cuts, like little things. They seem meaningless. And things just seem chaotic and there's no good to this. We read the stories of the saints and we can go, okay, I can see how that was a cross. But what I'm dealing with, I don't feel our Lord anywhere. It's been a long time.

He's either forgotten about me. He doesn't love me. Maybe he doesn't exist. But this stuff I'm dealing with, it's meaningless. If I could sense the meaning or how I'm growing in it, then I could go, go Jesus. Yeah, but in half of the weight of the cross is the mystery. it and we want to be able to understand the cross and that would remove half the way because it's just if god came to us in perfect clarity and said i'm going to ask you to do this and by you

offering this up it's going to save 10 000 souls over here and you'd be like okay great but but god puts us in a dark night they puts us in a fog for a particular reason because i mean you can complete a journey of a thousand miles in a total fog as long as you're just taking one step at a time and you know as word says my my word is a lamp to your feet a light to your path a lamp doesn't give you squat in terms of light, like a foot, two feet, but the God deliberately says, I'm not giving you a spotlight, I'll give you a lamp because you just have to stay on the path and just walk and I'll take you there. And I think he wants us to enter into that calvary of a state of total isolation from every human consolation, even divine consolation. And we've got

to almost spiritually marinate in that darkness for him to accomplish the healing that he wants us to. So it's not a matter of like, I know I'm suffering, but I feel Christ's profound intimacy at this very moment so it's easy it's like no it's when he withdraws the sensibility of his presence from us that he's actually closest to us but we can't feel that in the time being and so yeah so i mean for the times that we weren't getting along i mean the challenge is that she was coming from a place i think were conflict was something very comfortable for her it's almost all that she had known with her parents and her extended relatives did you realize it was comfortable at the time you like i don't want this who knows when you don't realize when you're operating out of a wound

Because that's what you're operating out of. That's like where you're living. That's where you're like grounded in. A sense of control in that. And I was the total opposite. Yeah. That like for me, conflict is not a safe place to be. And so when these two storms would kind of collide, you know, we're both operating

out of particular wound thinking the other one, she thinking, okay, he's conflict avoidant. He's not wanting to resolve this stuff. Me thinking this is overbearing, this is too much. You know, there were times who were just like, we can't be in the same room, you know, tonight. And then it became another night and another night. And before you know it, it's weeks and it's months living in a different room in the same house of not knowing how to go forward on this and how to heal and what brokenness in us that needs to be resolved for us to connect.

Both of us on a deep level wanting that closeness and safety and intimacy with each other, but both of us doubting the goodness of the other person's heart and living out of that suspicion. Suspicion, that's the key word, I think. Yeah, because then even when you try to reconcile, your best attempt is may as well also be an insult. It's like, I can't do anything. If I actually make a step forward, it's received. I resent the way you're breathing, that kind of thing.

When the evil one attacks you from the outside, right, in spiritual warfare and there's things happening and you know, like, okay, we're really undergoing spiritual warfare and it's on the outside. But if he can turn that and twist it to where, okay, let me just make and slowly seep in the crack, slowly seep in the wounds and expand them, right? And actually, we start destroying ourselves and each other and making his job easy. It's like you don't necessarily say, oh, this is spiritual warfare. You're just seeing like, wow, he's being really selfish. Wow, he's like over excessive in this hobby or he's like, and it starts like manifesting more and more and you start listening to

that demonic dialogue, just like he doesn't care. He cares more about this than me and da-da-da-da, and you start hearing. And I don't think people realize how much they are taking in and believing and taking on the demonic dialogue that's being whispered to them on it daily. And just like, he doesn't care, he doesn't like. He loves this ministry more than your family. And he's always gone and this and he can minister those people. He can't even be here for me and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,

like whipping him like just the left and right in my life. Right, if there's a demon on your shoulder saying those exact words, you'd understand, you'd understand, you know, when it's your own thoughts or what you think are your own thoughts. And then you take it on and we believe it. Like we're so open to believe the negative, even about ourselves. Like you're stupid, you're fat, you're ugly, you're not. worthy you're not you're not you're gonna make a full year like you're on the way to this trip on the

way to the trip and it's just like what what do you mean by that on the way to the truth like coming here i was like so kind of like triggered and just like we shouldn't be doing this we shouldn't be getting on we shouldn't be telling people and da da da and just not that i want to hide but i i've gone through so much and i'm so protective and just protecting myself and protecting just certain things in my past and certain things that have happened to me and and and i don't know a lot of fear came up But I was reading scripture and I was praying and it was so beautiful because I read something that said like, fear is the seed of evil. And I was like, whoa, like, you know, because a lot of the times I have been so fearful in my life and I've had to overcome it that it really is a paralyzing thing. And it stops you from doing a lot of good because Jesus says so many times, like do not fear.

And that's been a thing like Pope John Paul the Second. Like we know him for saying, do not fear because I think fear keeps us from loving, from being open, from being open, from being. vulnerable from trusting, even within your marriage in certain aspects in your life, right? Even as you're speaking, I kind of have an image of my mind of like, the rays of divine mercy came through an open wound. And we have this idea that our wound needs to be shut, cauterized, healed, gone, and then we can go do, do, do, do, do when in reality, like, God wants to be able to work through us in our own state of woundedness, as long as we're on the road, you know, and following his will.

but it so you know coming here is like do we really have our stuff together have we ironed all no no we're still figuring it out we're total rook i mean someone asked me while ago like what was the hardest time of marriage and i said just the first 23 years and he said how long you've been married i said 23 years you but it's not it's not a despair it's just like okay you know there's a lot of work that god apparently still wants to do in us but this idea that god can't use you until you're totally over that thing I mean, who's at, you know, St. Mark Xi Chang-Zang, I mean, died addicted to opium, canonized saint in the Catholic Church.

And so God can still use us in our brokenness and almost prefers to. What was it like, because you said that you would spend sometimes months apart in different rooms? What was it like your children seeing all this? Because I think, I often think, can we just go figure this out?

And then, you know, I don't want my mess to get in the way of the children. I remember, reminds you of a bishop who during the sex abuse scandal said something very wise to the priests. He said, we can sometimes be tempted to think that, you know, counseling those who have been afflicted by this or what have you gets in the way of our ministry. But we have to realize, no, this is our ministry. And I think likewise, it would be awesome if a married couple could figure things out and then have children and then not have to wound them and not have them to have

to see the, you know, the venom that we sometimes intentionally throw at each other and spit at each other. No, that was one of the most heartbreaking things of the isolation is knowing that the kids are witnessing this dysfunction and then seeing their parents on stage, you know, and doing this talk and coming out with that product. And at home, it's just, it's just so hard. I was talking to a guy I know who's in the special ops in the military. And he was just doing a talk and I was listening to him in person at this thing. And he was explaining, yeah, you know, when the U.S. military wants a swift and overwhelming victory, it's always the same strategy.

We take out command and control, then we cut lines of communication, and then we isolate and eliminate the units. And he just went on in his talk. I pulled my side, I said, say it again. And one thing, I said, that three thing, I need to hear that again. And he said, yeah, you take out command and control,

you cut the lines of communication, and then you isolate and eliminate the units. And it was just like, that's happening. You know, the evil one is trying to take out command and control, heads of the family, and then he's cutting the lines of communication, not only between us, but between the kids, so that he can isolate and eliminate the units,

each member of the domestic church. And it was just an eye-opening of like, this is under a deliberate attack. Satan has desired to sift you like wheat. You know, and I was... Settle. No, go ahead. It's just, it's subtle.

It's scary how subtle, because we know better. It's a subtle thing. We know better. And it's just like, okay, we're doing all. all of these things but yet here we are struggling and when you're i know jason has said this many times that when you're not married the devil will do everything in his power to get you as close as physically

possible to like crossing over right but when you're married he will do everything in his power mat to get you as far as possible from each other because your bond as a couple and your marital bond your sexual bond like that almost soul tie is powerful against him and when you're one like that and you're on your altar of your marriage bed and if he can remove you from that he can distort that and keep you from that i mean he's got one up on you right there i remember hearing a priest say that you know when a husband a wife are united as they should be that their bond is so profoundly an imitation of the inner life of the blessed trinity that the devil cannot stand it he can't come near it and so he isolates them so that he can act and so i've even heard some priest talk

about the marital union as a minor exorcism, that the devil can't be anywhere around it. When it's being shared in a way that's in alignment with God's plan for human sexuality, it's a renewal of the vows. You're speaking the vows in your body instead of with your words. And like Crystal said, this is not a bed, this is an altar. That's why the book of Hebrews keep the marriage bed undefiled.

It's a place set apart. But yeah, so the division was happening emotionally, mentally, spiritually, physically, geographically in terms of the spaces in the house just trying to fight because if the devil can kind of split that atom of the husband and the wife then everything is going to crumble beneath it and that's why they always say the best thing you do for your kids is just love your wife and it was just like I want to love my kids bad so badly but then our relationship is so broken so dysfunctional so it's you know so painful

it was a it was a tremendous cross to know they were witnessing this and just asking God where are you in the midst of this like how can this be your will to have my children in tears because the the dysfunction of their parents. Like, where are you in the midst of all of this? Literally crying out to him and hearing nothing. You know, like you talked to praise, well, what's God saying to you? Nothing.

He's saying nothing. I feel like I'm throwing a coin into a well and I don't even hear it land at the bottom. It just goes. And so these prayers are just like echoed into eternity. And nothing comes back to me. And so you're in that dark spot of just crying out to God, not for a couple of prayer sessions,

but for like years of just feeling like you're in this desert. But there's years that ask questions and there's years that answer. And, yeah. Did your marriage get bad and then worse and then kept getting, or was their pockets of reconciliation and hope only to go back down again?

Roller coasters. Sometimes I don't know what's worse. Yeah, and then you think, oh, this is it. And finally there's just going to be this piece and then there was something else, you know, and then it just, it was constant. And then there was a couple, I don't know, there was a year where everything,

was like, I felt like, it was like, I felt like all of hell was after our family. All of hell was after. Jason and I, like, to just rip everything apart. And to be honest, I feel like God really does test, test you. Everyone's going to be tested in their life in one way or another. And I feel like God allowed, you know, there's times somewhere. And he just allows and to see how you handle how faithful, like just puts you to the test. And I felt like, I wish you didn't trust me so much.

I would. But it says in the script, he scourges every Sunday. Oh my gosh, like I started resenting and getting mad at God. Like, why don't you let up? I can't breathe. Like, I'm trying. I'm fighting. Like, you keep knocking me down.

And I was just like exhausted. If you could perceive yourself growing in virtue, like we said earlier, and this is true in my own life now, I can think of different things that are going on. If I could perceive the point to this or if I could see, oh, I'm seeing, I'm getting more patient, then maybe I could deal with it. But when it just feels like nothing good is coming of this or will ever come. of this then it just feels meaningless and it's like okay our kids are having issues jason and i are having issues i they thought i had breast cancer like even my body wasn't functioning right like everything

was like falling apart around me right and i just kind of step back i stopped doing some ministry like i just step back because i'm like oh no like i need to i need to step back and i wasn't taking on speaking engagements i pulled away from just podcasts and just like everything social media i kind of I don't care. Like God is like, obviously I need to deal with myself. I need to deal with what's going on. My health, just our marriage, everything. And I'm just like, what is happening?

And everything was like this wrecking ball out of nowhere. Because everything's going so good and like things are flourishing. And there's so much fruit and things are happening. But slowly in that, I think there's a disorder that people have to be so careful with of what, how things are structured like god your husband your kids and everything else and slowly because you're doing so much good and you see the good you see the fruit you don't see the cracks in the foundation the chink in the armor that's getting bigger and bigger and then you start like things just start crumbling but there's so much fruit there's so much good and then it's just like but i'm falling

apart there that's not like my own temple's crumbling but yet everything else is being built up that's not that's disorder right and so there's a time of just stepping back and like okay i am having massive issues with my husband but isn't my husband or is it me because i got to a point where i didn't want to pray for jason i was so angry i was so hurt i was just like oh i'm just fed up and like the level of the resentment i allowed that's the thing i allowed it the devil only goes so far and he'll go as far as you let him but those little things that creep in the unfriend forgiveness, the resentment, the hurt, the anger, the things you want to hold on to, the things you know you should apologize for that you're like, screw it. He's not sorry. So why should I be? You know,

I'm sick of being the one always apologizing. I'm tired of it. Like, I'm over the ego and pride. And I kept telling myself these things when it's like, well, what about your own ego and pride? You know, like, you know, it's hard. But at the same time, there were real hurts. There were real wounds. And it's like, but I just, I knew at some point. And thank God. of my the women at the church that just kind of i be slowly became friends with because i think i was so isolated as well like i was isolated and then you slowly get taken out right and i allowed myself to be but i was so private like how could we not be private you know because you we are public we are on stage people have this on your pedestal and you don't want to affect them because god has them on

their own journey but at the same time we are broken people we are sinners all of us are and um it's very silly to say that oh well we're not having our own struggles we're not having our own problems and i have all the answers and we're perfect you know it's a bunch of crap it's like everybody has problems but i i wasn't prepared and i didn't want to be public about it but these women at my church and and and christian and they just like they were so good and they just kind of just i let them in and i didn't have really good friends that i could trust but they became these prayer warriors and just this Ashley who like actually was like a fan of us like that was hard like okay I'd be tell her what's going and these three women that literally ministered to me and prayed with me it was so powerful

letting good holy women in to help me because I realized I was in a serious spiritual battle and you cannot fight the evil one on your own like you sometimes like you're in battles that you can like overcome on your own but there are are battles where you need troops with you. You need people coming and helping you fight that battle and carrying you when you're wounded sometimes. And that's what those women did for me so beautifully. And they're still there. And I know those women, they go to bat for me any day. And like, spiritually, I can call them up and be like, this is happening. Boom. They're there. They're praying. And you need people like that in your life. And it's silly to say, like, oh, well, I'm going to get

the, I'm going to get a counselor. And I'm going to read this latest book. And I'm going to go on Instagram and see and I'm going to talk to chat GPT and he's going to help me fix this problem. No, some things are straight up, spiritual warfare and you need to wield the weapons of the church in order to combat with things coming after you. And that's what kind of what I did and I got into that mindset, not only for my family, my husband, but also for myself and realizing, okay, I've got some serious weaknesses and brokenness that I need to overcome as well in all of this mess, right? Yeah, beautiful. Yeah, my wife's advice, we have. had a couple come up to us in Assisi and they just happened to be there and they were engaged and

she said what advice do you have for us and she gave some good advice she said always if you when you get into an argument you talking to the woman always call a woman who will take his side within reason and you as a fella always call someone who's going to take her side and I think that's good advice I mean if I am struggling in my marriage and I go to a fella who speaks ill of my wife You know, like, we're done. We're done forever. Good while, have a good life. Yeah.

So did you have men in your life that you could turn to about this? Not for a long, long time. It was just, I felt like if I was starting to share these things, I'd be betraying her in the sense that this is really what's going on. And, you know, her desire for privacy and, you know, the respect of her own name. I thought, if I'd tell anybody how hard this is, then, you know, it's not going to go. It's going to create more conflict between us because she'll want to know. who did you talk to? What did you say? I'm like, so I'm just going to, I'll deal with it.

And so I stuffed it for a good decade and a half, you know, before I really started talking to anybody about it, other than just a confessor, a spiritual director. And then started to find kind of my band brothers, you know, of guys like Devin and Chris and like Brian Butler in particular, where he would, oh, my goodness, you know, he would just leave me voice memo's first thing in the morning. I got Psalm, whatever for you today. And he just read it there and say a prayer of the voice memo, click. Just like day to day to day, just checking in like a brother like I had never really had one before. So I was able to discover, you know, how much more progress you can make when you're not trying to go alone.

What do they say? If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go as a team. Do you wish earlier than you did that? Do you wish you had asked Kristina for, hey, can I? Because I get it, right? I mean, you don't want to disclose all of your spouse's dysfunction to someone without their permission. Do you wish that you had asked her?

like, can I, I need to talk to someone about this because I need to process what's going on. Can I talk to Brian? Can I? Well, I think we had, and she, I don't know that you, I think she might have been okay with me going to like a counselor kind of thing, but not talking to just random guys. You feel so exposed.

I mean, I remember when I was struggling with pornography and my wife's like, I just, I need to talk to something about this. I remember being like, yeah, okay, you can talk to this person about it. I trust her, you trust her. No. I think that was really helpful for her. Otherwise, she's got to suffer in silence, you know. And meanwhile, I can go, I can tell whoever I want.

I'm getting kind of comfort and consolation from good men in my life who are encouraging me and that sort of thing. Meanwhile, she's suffering and no one's asking what she should be doing about. And again, I was coming from a place of more conflict avoidance of just like, I don't want to, there's enough rough waters here. I don't want to ruffle more feathers. I don't want to create more conflict. We have more than enough. So I'm just going to. But then as I kind of matured out of that and realized, okay, no, I need to be willing as a man to create conflict when it needs to happen.

And so as I stepped into that new place of masculinity, it did create more conflict, but it was unnecessary in healing conflict. Because they say that the truth might hurt, but it'll never harm. And so being able to create a healing conflict was something that I didn't know how to do as a young husband of just like, no, I need to be able to just tell you no. Yeah, this does need to happen. And there's going to be a conflict. I'm going to work through it. I didn't have, I think, that level of masculine development going into marriage that I would be willing to create a conflict for a greater. good. It was no, the good is no conflict. That's, that's the place and whatever's going to get me

there is the temperament that I need to hold on to. And so it's been a journey for not only me, but for her to see this new part of my own development of being like, no, no, we, it's okay, let's have a conflict. Let's go after this and we can resolve it and work through it. If you are a Catholic and tired of dating apps that feel, well, not very Catholic, there is a way. It's called Catholic Chemistry. It's a dating site and app for intentional Catholic dating made for Catholics by Catholics. designed for real intentional Catholic dating. Go to Catholicchemistry.com slash mat,

and if you love it, use the promo code Matt for 20% off optional upgrades. I think we've talked about this before, and I love that you talked about growing into that masculine part of you, where that awful phrase, happy wife, happy life. First of all, it treats a woman like a petulant teenager who has to be placated, but I think one of the reasons men often fall into that,

is they don't want her to withhold sex from them. Yeah. And so in a weird way, the man ends up becoming a simp, as the children say today, towards his wife, when he's supposed to be leading the family and leading the family means

telling her what's going to happen that's going to upset her and being okay that it's upsetting her. You want to do this in a loving, considerate way, of course. No, what I realized is I was actually using her by avoiding conflict with her, that I'm not facing the conflict with you

because I want a particular version of you, you. And so I'm going to, I know how to have that version of you that I can accept. And it's just by me giving you what the heck you want. And then we have some semblance of peace, but it's a false piece. And when I realize, like, no, this is, this is not loving to her to just give her whatever she wants so I can get the version of her that I can deal with. Like, no, I need to be able to speak the truth in love for her. And, you know, ultimately happy wife, happy life. We need to realize happiness is an inside job. It's like in a healthy way, her happiness is not my responsibility in a healthy way. I mean, there's an unhealthy way to interpret that of like,

nope, you do. I'm doing it. I want you to cheer up about it. But to be able to say, no, like, I'm responsible for learning how to maintain peace in my day-to-day life. And I need to find out what brings me authentic joy that's not at the expense of other people so that I can live in a place of peace, even when everything is a state of unrest. And if you have two people living out that mature understanding of happiness, you can have a happy marriage. But if I'm living as no, my happiness is your responsibility. And if I'm not happy, it must be because of you. That could just create, I think, a toxic and cocktail.

And what was it like for you as he sort of tried to placate you, perhaps, and then started changing tactics? It was hard. And I don't want people to think, oh, he was giving me whatever I want or he'd have these tantrums. And then he's just like, oh, I'll give it your because, no, there were just certain real things happening. And I was having baby after baby after baby and not coming up for a breath. I mean, incredibly resentful, and it was very hard on top of having a sick child and really judgmental, either family members or whatever. And it was just like, hello, I'm drowning.

Do you see me? Hello, the workout can wait or the talks can wait. Like, I need you. And it's just like I was getting like angry and frustrated. But at the same time, it was also my own brokenness that amplified that as well, you know, that that I didn't deal with. So it made it even worse. But I think that was the other thing. that was really difficult and has been in our marriage,

but it's just been such a blessing because I wouldn't have it any other way, is our children and the level of just like, I felt like a baby machine, like, it was just like constant, constant, constant. I love my kids, I wouldn't change it. And I thank God for Mother Church and the guidance in just having that, her lead.

Like we tried NFP, but I felt like it was just a pause in pregnancy, to be honest, you know, but it's good. and it can work, but it didn't for me because I was either breastfeeding or I was pregnant. Like, that was it. It was just like there was no because my cycle wasn't coming back because of the breastfeeding. So it literally was like every two years or less than that. Every, like after 60 months, I was pregnant.

But if it were up to me in all honesty, the level and even emotionally where I was at or the postpartum I've experienced, that I probably wouldn't have had that next baby because it would have been too hard. I'm like, I can't handle it. But God can see what I can handle it. beyond my issues or emotions or this or that. He's like, no, you can. I'm with you. Like, and I did at one point in all, I was crying and I'm like so overwhelmed and I was praying like, why, Lord, do you keep?

Like, I love my kids, but I feel so broken in my body and like emotionally and this is like so much, like, just like. And I felt like one day he said to me in adoration that Christelina, every time I put life in your womb, I am leaving my finger. print inside there of all the grace and everything you need for that baby I'm giving you like I am with you in this like it's again that Jesus is like I'm going to bat I'm here I'm not leaving like I've got you like and that's what we want right but because it feels like he's so far away and not like here and tangible it's just like you're not really here and I think a lot of i think a lot of

catholic couples particular women this is another point of false shame like I'm not overjoyed by my fourth pregnancy in two years, you know, and the fact that I'm really having a hard time with this, I'm not a good Catholic mom. Yes, there's a big issue. Could you talk to that? Could you talk to the many beautiful women who are watching this who just feel like,

you've heard Jim Gaffigan's joke about if you wanna know it's like having a fourth baby, just imagine you're drowning and someone hands you a baby while you're drowning. And it's such a beautiful thing to say, but yeah, could you give advice to the woman who's watching right now and it's just like, I am tapped out and I feel shame that I'm tapped out

and I don't know what to do. you don't feel like yourself at all. And then you're like, who am I? You know, because all you're doing is like giving and going and serving and not sleeping. And like everything, like the life is being taken out of your, drawn out of you. Like, you know, it's a lot and you feel beat up. But at the end of the day, God's grace is sufficient. He will give you everything you need.

But it's okay to feel that brokenness. It's okay to feel like I don't know how I'm going to handle this. Like, this is too much. It's okay to cry. if you flip that pregnancy test over and like just start bawling like how how am i going to do this well you're not going to do this but if you can look at it like okay god is going to do this with you will really help you but there is a level sometimes of just like it's too much it was crushing me i felt but at the same time i loved my kids i wouldn't do it any other way and i thank god and i look back

now to the 11 pregnancies we have our eight kids but i've had 11 pregnancies pregnancies and we've had three miscarriages and those were really hard and I was going through so much emotionally at the time and then I'm thinking because I was going through so much did that cause it there was a lot of guilt like was there something that I did like you start self-shaming because you feel like you're broken and you're inadequate and something's wrong with your body and like what did I do and you start like you know but at the same time God gives life God takes life And honestly, sometimes I feel those miscarriages are those little soldiers just going to bat for you

and your family up there just praying for you, wanting you, incessantly, like, giving graces to you. And I know the second that I die, okay? This is my own belief. This isn't like a theological thing, but I, as a mom, I know the millisecond I die. My wife says the same. My babies are going to be right there

looking at me and leading me to God. Good or bad, they're there. And I'm excited. It's funny, my wife was having an argument with this theology student who was talking about unbaptized babies and he's like, well, actually, and she's like, I will rip your freaking face up.

She didn't say that, but everything in her. It's like, let's go. I'm like, you need to sit this one out. Let's take my word. But advice for women and men who are both dealing with this. And maybe what's the advice you wish you were given?

Real quick, I know for me, I was going through a rough part of our marriage when we moved to Steubenville and my wife hit rock bottom as far as physically. I just needed space. And I went on this, Scott Hahn invited me to this Opus Day retreat. And I went and I realized, I don't want a lecture. I need to, I want to lay in bed and watch a movie.

That's what I've never, haven't done it. Yes. And maybe it was a bit of dissociation, but also it was just, I just need to lay down. I guess that's kind of the, I want the down and dirty advice like that to men and women who would feel like they're drowning right now. Oh, yeah. No, I mean, when we found out we were expecting our first, it was joy. I mean, it was just pure joy.

Like, here we go. And we were hoping, you know, to be able to have a big family. And, I mean, I think we put 10 miraculous medals on the altar of our wedding, you know, in hopes and expectations for 10 kids. Did you actually end up keeping them all? What did you do with all the medals? No, we have them. We've got them.

It's so great. I've lost everything. I've had them all the two weeks. So, but when we found out we were expecting our second, we were actually in the hospital with our first born. overwhelmed sleep deprived health issues and then the pregnancy test you know and crystal i flipped that thing over and i was like i'm sitting here we're in a hospital or i mean i just am like this is what i this like i felt like oh my gosh are all my kids going to be like this i mean it was serious it was

but he almost died and i was like oh this is this is scary and then i flip over that pregnancy because i was like so sick i mean and i was barely eating because he had to have my breast milk and the only could have three foods. And, like, my zeros were falling off of me. It was so bad, you know. And I just, I just felt sick. And we took a pregnancy test, and I flipped that thing over. And I, Jason comes walking towards me.

And I'm like, you bastard. No, I was like, I'm like at the time. I mean, everything came out of me at that moment. I chucked that thing. And I was like, have you seen the Matrix? If you've seen Matrix out of Neo? I chucked that thing at him. Now I've gotten so good, I can just go, boom, and they all just like, all that.

I was bawling and I was crying, and that's where I was. Like, and that was okay. That is okay that I responded that way. It doesn't make me less or a bad mom or they don't want my kids. Like, it's, you're okay. Allow yourself to feel how you're feeling without worrying about judgment of other people. And shame on them for judging you. I mean, these people that think that they can like, oh, look down on you and just like,

it's like they want a Christianity that isn't even human. Kimberly Hahn has a story of bringing her kids to daily mass and she was late a little bit and after Holy Mass a woman turned around and said you know if you can't get your kids to church on time maybe you shouldn't come at all. Oh my God. If Kimberly told me she punched that woman in the nose

I would have, I think that would be very okay. Just more theory applied at first practice. Yeah, but that's really helpful, that kind of advice. Here's a question if you don't mind me asking, how could he have been more consistent? when you felt like you were drowning in a sea of babies? Because Paul says be considerate with your wives. You know, I look back.

I was really hard on Jason, though, too. I was going through so much, and I didn't realize how wounded I was at the time and the expectations that I was putting on him or what I thought it should be and unspoken as well. You know, so that was unfair for him. But showing up more, being present more of like if I came to him, But I look back and realizing at the time, he was going through his own thing, too.

I mean, he has this family. He has to support us all. He has a sick child. He has a wife who's, like, completely overwhelmed, postpartumian out, you know? And Jen then just, and he's also doing ministry and this and that. I mean, he was carrying a weight himself, you know. And at the time, I didn't care. Like, I don't care what your son.

Buck up, man up, let's go. Like, I need your help right now, you know? And I could have been softer in that regard. And one thing I could say, too, I think that'd be helpful is that, you know, we had to go through, as long as we're just being raw, we had to go through serious seasons of abstinence in our marriage that I did not expect coming in the door. And because, like, you know, when she's physically overwhelmed, emotionally drained, you know, psychologically tapped out. And not knowing when, you know, your ovulation is going to return after a pregnancy. It's like, the charting isn't that reliable. You're relying on breastfeeding, whatever.

And so it was just like, it was almost like dodging bullets in the sense, like, I don't. want to take any risks because I can't because there's a just reason now to postpone our next pregnancy so we can at least have some semblance of sanity under this roof and so in understanding that it's like okay and you know and for her it was just like well this means just we can't like it was like a hard no it was like I can't get pregnant again I was like it wasn't just like for a day a week it was months and months and months and is a young husband and you know or an older husband like why I didn't sign up for this and Jesus is like well you did you know good time Okay, let me show you.

You know. I'm like, you're Mr. Chastity. What do you expect? Like, I was like, ah! It was like Dragon Moe. Like, it was horrible. You know, and I wasn't really concerned about it because I was going through so much. So I'll, and the thing is to be, be careful in marriage when you are drowning like that, not to turn in.

So you're not also seeing your husband, you know, like you kind of cave in on yourself and like what you're dealing with, what's going on, your lack of sleep. Like, you're disgusted with your own. Like, you're. bodies going through all these changes and you're just like I felt like this blob like just like I just and I didn't feel like myself either but because you're not God is shifting you're molding your you're a you're a mother now and that changes things but it's it's beautiful if you let it happen like this cocoon because you're really growing spiritually physically even emotionally to give to so like not just yourself not just your husband but other children multiple children so

There's something really major growing inside. And I think that's why when you first have children, you go through something like to call Mommy Shock. Like you're going to go through Mommy Shock if you have one, two, 10, or five, whatever. There's a stage of Mommy Shock where it's just like, this is like, well, this is too much. Can I just say one thing? I think there's a temptation right at that point for some couples to be like, why go through the trouble?

Why not just contracept right there? It's like you don't need to put yourselves through this physical distance from one another, you can just contracept. And a lot of times people will blame the church for the issues that are coming to the surface. Well, it's because of the stupid NFP thing that we have to do. It's because the Catholic Church is imposing on this. When reality, what's come out of the surface is do I, have I really learned how to make a gift of myself to her? And I think one of the things I learned by kind of saving sex from marriage and practicing chastity is that abstinence is an expression of love. And that I can make a gift of myself to my wife in a way that Joseph would

to our lady. And am I ready for that? And the answer is no. Like that's really, I'm not there yet. And so it's easy to blame the church, blame NFP, instead of being, okay, I need to learn how to make a total Holocaust gift of myself to my wife in a way that isn't pleasing to me, as the one flesh union might be. And then I'm loving her in that. And so if we don't get put in that crucible, so to speak, you know, God can't develop that virtue out of us. And our temptations kind of hop out of the pot. Like, okay, this is too hot. I'm hopping out. But God's cooking something, so to speak, if we can just have the courage to stay in it. And he's like, no, I'm teaching you to love Kristolina in a new way, not prohibiting you from experiencing

our love. But in the times of abstinence, to be careful. And that's where I was like really just like, no. And I just held on too tight to like being of my fear of like having another be. Like I'm overwhelmed. And like it was, it was like, no, that I could see how it was hard on our marriage. breakdown because that bond is so powerful and being close with your husband like that is the one place that that I am close with Jason as his wife and to be and to be able to bond with him like that and to have that marital union with him our kids are going to be like oh this is cringy like if they're watching this is what they click off but yeah but I'm just to be honest but at the same time it's like I can see how it hurt us too well that I was going to

ask this quite provocative question, but I think it's a serious one. Yeah. How do you reconcile, no, with Paul's words, do not deny each other except for a season? That's where I knew, and I look back now of just like, that was wrong. That was wrong of me, that was a distortion within me,

but also I think because of my past, my sexual wound is, like serious, dark things I experienced when I was little that I just didn't even know yet, was also coming into play with that, right? but I can see how it hurt the marriage. So yes, yes, you can have a time.

Yes, there's time you need to take and just a pause. But be careful because the evil one will keep you comfortable in that pause and feel like you're safe

and in all actuality. You're becoming your own worst enemy and your own wrecking ball in your distance with your husband. Because Jason has friends. He can go out. He can do things. But I'm the only woman on the planet

that can be close with him like that. There's like that special, union and bond that you have as husband and wife and there's a reason for that and i could see how within our marriage the devil just slowly separated us with that as well but did not give into that fear because it's dangerous how would you respond to that question yeah i mean it was a hard point because as a husband it's not like well i have rights you know and you need to submit and we need to move forward in this direction like i knew that that wasn't my place and even if it was legitimate for you to say that It sounds like perhaps the most unhelpful thing.

They're misogynistic, like you man, you know, yeah. Even if it's true, you understand what I'm saying? We still have to take into account what each other is going through and how each of us will receive what it is we want to say. And I think the real challenge wasn't just like, okay, we can't do that. She had such a fear that if we get close at all, it's going to lead to that. And so. He would sneeze, I'd be pregnant, Matt.

I mean, it was like, I couldn't like stop. But it was just like in terms of physical affection, kiss, anything. Like, I can't get close to you in any way. shape or form, or it's just going to inevitably lead to that because then she'll desire it and then get pregnant again. And so there was such physical distance between us. And not just in the bedroom, but in the kitchen, just anywhere, because it's the fear. But then it's like she said, you know, the devil's working in that fear. And one of his greatest temptations is comfort and convenience. And so if he can just get you comfortable and stay there, then he can prevent

you from walking the cross sometimes. This is a beautiful conversation. I've had multiple men say to me their women are terrified of getting pregnant, hey? And so I suppose, well, look, I mean, there's real situations. I mean, my beautiful wife had to have four C-sections. And then she got really sick. She had to have a miscarriage. It was, we were both very sad about that. But you know, like it's not just, well, I can't handle another kid. Like for some women, it could be, I might die. Yeah. And so what is the responsibility of the man in that situation to love his wife well? because I think often what happens because of our selfishness is the woman looks at the man and says,

love me as Christ loves the church. And the man looks at the woman and says, submit to me, like, you know. And I think what's obviously the best option is when the woman chooses to submit and the man chooses to love us. Like if you're both concerned with the things you've been told to do, things go well.

But often we look at each other and point fingers. But you notice, I think, if they both, in a sense, are living the mass, they're living their marriage. And what I mean is, and the husband and his gift of abstinence to the wife is literally saying this is my body given up for you these desires I have these cravings I have

just to be close to you to feel valued by you to feel masculine in your presence like this is my body given up for you and then in a sense if she's returning and reciprocating in sense she would be saying well this is my body given up for you and so when there's a season of abstinence required by one or both

and the person's willing to submit to that grace They're not just like attending mass on Sunday. They're living the mass in and through their body. And so you think of the woman then gets pregnant. She's saying, this is my body given up for you, little one. And then she's up with morning sickness. This is my body given up for you. She's breastfeeding the baby at 2 o'clock.

And this is my body given up for you. And I think that's why the devil wants us to do anything but live the mass in and through our bodies and in our vocations. Yeah. And we were always hoping that this is my body given up for you meant this is me having sex with you. You're welcome. I'm doing exactly what I was called. do, but I love your point about how abstinence is a way of loving your spouse. Yeah, because I have

a friend whose wife had been abused when she was young. And the marriage went well for a long time, and then stuff started to come up to the surface. And the wife said, you know, honey, in counseling, all the stuff is starting to come up. And I just can't be close to you in that way right now. And the husband, good man, I totally get it, honey. You know, we can be abstinent, and then a week of absence went by, and then a month, and then two months, three months, four months. And now it's really clear because I know who you're talking about, it was a serious thing this woman was processing. It wasn't just like, how I feel fat. No, no, no, no.

She had been, you know, sexually abused as a little girl and all the flashbacks are coming back and so good man, you know, I said, I totally get it. And, you know, a week, month, several months go by and now he's really wrestling with God because he had a broken idea of masculinity that when a woman is sexually responsive to me, I feel more manly. And when even my own bride is frigid towards me, I just feel like less of a man. but by staying on that cross of abstinence he was becoming more of a man to her than any man had ever been and through his affliction she was healed and through her affliction he was healed and they came back together stronger than ever

but imagine if instead of understanding that abstinence was an expression of love he became pouty distant whiny demanding unfaithful whatever his woundedness would have only infected hers but by realizing that he's living the mass in his body I'm giving up my body for love of my bride, the church, you know, it healed the both of them to go through that cross. And I think in the same way, I think we've both been healed through afflictions in ways that we could never have been healed had we had the marriage that we had planned. It's all about also intentions, your intentions behind. Like, are you really taking care of your wife or is this something that it's okay right now? Are you just like, no, I need this. I need a release.

I need to, you know, I need my. wife right now but is it for the wrong reasons or are you really taking care of her are you really like putting her in the forefront of things or is this about your selfish like desires and wants and your needs and your urges or whatever else like you need to look at yourself and your intention intentionality of why you're doing something and if you can't take that sober look and it be pure you got to go deal with yourself you know and do what needs to be done but i think if we all can really look at things in that, that frame, it kind of writes, orders things, you know. But if we could be honest in a sobering way about our intentions, it kind of...

Thomas Aquinas in the Summuthiology says that if a man or a woman, you know, has each other, but basically, I don't know his exact words, but it's something like, just because she's a legitimate outlet, and I would just as well have someone else, then a man commits or a woman commits grave sin. And that can be a, that's a scary thing to realize about yourself. Like, oh, wow, am I? Am I doing this because of her? I love her?

Yeah, because you think that God's fathers were, God of Father's daughters were never created to be outlets for anything. And if I'm beginning to view her in that way or any other woman, then I'm out of my place as a man. Like that, my daughters will never be an outlet for a man who can't contain his own lust.

It's like, that's not why she exists. So, you know, but I think it's important to have these are super frank conversations because a lot of times when couples are going through this or a guy is going through a seat, of abstinence in his own marriage for four, five, six, seven months, you know, and beyond, like we've gone through, you can start to do a little self-pity job on yourself. And I think that the devil gets right in there as soon as you start feeling sorry for

yourself. And you need to be able to grieve in an authentic way with Christ and others, the loss of what should be there in a healthy and human way. But in the absence of being able to process the grief, because they say, you know, trauma isn't that something bad happened to you. You know, trauma is suffering in a lack of... of an empathetic witness, that you're just going through us

and nobody can see it. But if you can vent that with a good spiritual director, a band to brothers or whatever, then they can legitimize the grief that you're feeling. But in the absence of that, all you're left with this self-pity. And then you tried to give justification to particular outlets of just like,

I've been such a good boy, I deserve this, I deserve that. And so we need to learn how to properly grieve. So I think conversations like this are super helpful. There's so many guys out there, and perhaps even women going through seasons of abstinence in their marriage, where it's just like, Like, I am literally must be the only person on earth going through this.

And to hear, wait a minute, the frads have gone through it, the efforts have gone through it. Like, I don't know, it just takes a lot of pressure out. I don't think we ever realized how much of a lie pornography was. And whatever the equivalent is, you know, maybe it's Hollywood shows about families and married life, what have you. But I think we all, once we became Christians and started repenting of pornography, we realized, oh, yeah, that's a lie. Yeah. But I don't think, even as a 42-year-old man, that I realize how deep that lie. has gone to my heart.

You have an excellent quote. You say that marriage is not the fulfillment of pornography. Panography is the distortion of love. But I think to recognize that we all kind of, you know, with a couple of caveats, we just thought, no, it is the fulfillment of pornography in a sense. Like this is what I get to do now. Yeah.

And so when issues arise and you think, well, what's wrong with me? What's wrong with her that she's a human? How dare she be? Yeah. No, but what porn is is the ultimate counterfeit of the beatific vision. because what we ultimately long for is not just to see and behold beauty

and all of its greatness. Like, yeah, people think that's the allure of porn just seeing all this beauty one after the other after the other. To me, there's a deeper thing and it's being seen by beauty and be desired by it. Because for most men, you know,

the way that women look at you in posters and commercials, they don't look at me like that in real life. Like, you know, I mean, those faces we don't see anywhere and to be able to immerse herself in that world where there, it feels like she's seeing me and she wants me.

you know but then when you get out of that world it's just i mean that the the the crush afterwards of realizing how bogus it was all because to me the deepest desire of the human heart is to be seen in love and desired and ultimately only god can give that to us but in the absence of that divine consolation we seek out the carnal pleasures that's really well put i think it all goes back to that intentionality too of why you're doing something and that just doesn't go for the bedroom I think that can go for everything that you're doing, you know, and why you're doing it and how you're living out your marriage, how you're living out just your day and day life. And is it right ordered? Because if you're like, okay, well, what are my real intentions behind this? Because on the outside, it can look like, oh, we're really good and we're holy and I'm doing this thing. But at the end of the day, is it, well, is it your distorted, like vices just filling your ego and that's why you're doing it? Or are you really a good holy person doing this because of it? it's the will of God, you know, and asking yourself, like, what are your intentions behind doing this? And then I started to have to ask myself, well, why am I doing this? You know, and those are

sobering, hard things to look at. And I do it in adoration. And I think if Jason and I weren't so eucharistic, I mean, we would destroy ourselves. If we didn't have the church, we didn't have the sacraments, I think everyone would, right? But we have that grace of God to help us kind of maneuver and guide because I don't think people realize on a daily the spiritual warfare that they're facing and how much of it is spiritual. And I hate when people say, well, don't over spiritualize it. I'm like, well, you're not spiritualizing it enough. Like, get on board here. Okay. Like, this is a reality. So get over yourself or your insecurities or being like intimidated by spiritual warfare. Like that's movies and exorcist kind of thing. That's not my life. I'm like,

oh, more than you know, it's your life, you know. And people need to kind of wake up to your marriage is under attack all of hell is going to come after you and your children are you ready period and most men aren't most women are and then i think it's upside down where married don't married people don't know kind of their roles in that like the man is the spiritual leader he is the spiritual head but because they don't want to do it or know how or they're intimidated by it or they didn't see their dad do it then the women take it on and it's distorted right off the bat when you're trying to fight the evil one but it's like it's not how it's supposed to be but it's what's having to happen right now now when it needs to be flipped. But God bless those women that are just trying and advocating and

praying and fasting, you know, because your marriage does need that. But at the end of the day, the man is the one that needs to be the protector and leading and guiding spiritually. It's so important because if he can't put that up and he just has the gate wide open, you know, and the women's there trying to like fight that. Could you talk about how you've experienced that in marriage, spiritual warfare, because I think it's, I think one of the reasons we fail to accept that spiritual warfare is something we have to engage in is because we don't really recognize just how needed we are and how important we are. You know, we should always have a sense of humor about our littleness, but recognizing that you are a Christian soldier and all of that

language is not just to make you feel good, it's to wake you up to the battle that you are desperately needed in. And once you realize that, no, you're not a background character in this play. You're not like tree number three. Once you realize about yourself and start taking yourself more bloody seriously, that's when you realize that you, yeah, your strength is needed. The battle is real. I want to tell you about Hello, which is the number one downloaded prayer app in the world. It's outstanding. hallo.com slash Matt Frad. Sign up over there right now and you will get the first three months for free. That's like a lot of time. You can decide whether it's useful to you or not, whether it's helpful. If you don't like it, you can always quit. hallo.com slash Matt Frad. I use it.

My family uses it. It's fantastic. There are over 10,000 audio guided prayers, meditations, and music, including My Lofi. Hello has been downloaded over 15 million times in 150 different countries that helps you pray, helps you meditate, helps you sleep better. It helps you build a daily routine and a habit of prayer. There's honestly so much excellent stuff on this app that it's difficult to get through it all. Just go check it out.Hallow.com slash Matt Frad. The link is in the description below. It even has an entire section for kids. So if you're a parent, you could play little Bible stories to them at night. It'll help them pray. Fantastic. hallo.com slash Matt Frad. It was quite a learning curve like for me because, you know, before I got married, I knew how to

take care of myself spiritually. I've got my daily mass. I got my rosary. You know, and then Crystal and I'll pray together, and it was a piece of cake. Then you get married, and it's like, okay, I haven't really seen how this works. Okay, now I'm the spiritual head. I'm supposed to lead this prayer and that prayer. And I, for a very long time, didn't really know what the heck I was doing. And I'm still trying to figure it all out. But I would go on these trips, and I'd give these chastity talks.

And while I'm gone, you know, initially we did it as a dating couple, then an engaged couple. I actually proposed her during a high school assembly in front of 800 kids. I figured she couldn't say no in front of all of them. So it was a safe bed. we do this all together, even as a married couple, and the kids started showing up, she would stay home with the baby, and then I'd go out on the road,

and I'd keep my trips shorter to get home fast. But when I would go out on the road, literally all hell would break loose at home. And, you know, at first it was just like, okay, it's coincidence. You know, I mean, yeah, stuff's going to happen. I mean, you know, even people who aren't walking with God doing things, their tire breaks or this happens.

But then we'd leave, and just the level and consistency of the chaos that would ensue on the home front of just the craziest stuff of like swarms of flies coming into the house and this breaking and that kid getting injured and then kids having night tears where you know our three-year-old kid is crying to me and say daddy the shadows are rude it's like okay who says that how do you come up with that the shadows are rude it's going to be the name of my next horror story that's really but but you can't script that stuff like that's coming from and we're not showing them horror films then putting them in bed after watching it's Friday the 13th or whatever

it's like, okay, okay, all right, something's going on. What do I do? It's like, okay, I'll start with some holy water and I'll bless this, but then, okay, night tears are still happening with our kids. Like, what's going on? And, you know, having a priest come to the house and bless the house, having mass in the house.

And it just seemed like I'm trying all this stuff and it's still happening, you know, this retaliation. And it wasn't happening to me while I was on the road. Like, I don't have night tears. I don't have these crazy temptations. I'm not like Padre Pio, the devil, light my bed on three. fire and throwing around the room like anything going on it was just like he was hitting me on my

weak side meaning where it's going to hurt my wife and kids while I'm away and I can't just be there and like for crystal you know there is I think resentment brewing of like you're not protecting our family like you need to and me of just like what do I need to do like I'm doing this prayer I'm doing that prayer and stuff still happening but just the afflictions that she was experiencing the kids and so I mean it was a real painful learning curve because I think a lot of people think okay, it's either a spiritual batter or it's mental health stuff. It's one or the other.

And so the church, when it's going through this stuff, we'll discern it's this and not that. That's not really what the church teaches. It's not either or. It's always both and. There's always a human element. There's always a spiritual element. And I think in our misunderstanding

if it's got to be one or the other, people be like mental health, psychology, not all, we can't see the devil underneath every single rock. That's just not realistic. Instead of realizing, no, the most mentally well person in the galaxy experiences spiritual attacks,

inflictions and temptations. And even a person who's full-blown, possessed, or whatever, still has mental health struggles going on at some level or another. How could you not? Like, it's always both and, and we're all in both camps. Like, we're all fighting the spiritual war.

We're all battling for our own mental health and psychology. There's the human, it's the world, it's the flesh, and it's the devil. All three at the same time, instead of thinking all one, not the other. Yeah, so grace builds upon nature. And you might say warfare also builds upon nature.

I know there's been times in our marriage where Cameron will say, I think we're just under attack right now. And I'm like, would you stop doing that? Because I may be wrong in assuming this, but there were times where I thought, I feel like you're dismissing what we can just figure out here by appealing.

And I don't think that's what she's doing. And it was probably my unwillingness to look at it at that moment. I think that's a good. No, I did the same thing too of just like, no, these are human wounds that we need to seal and heal up and then the stuff's going to go away.

And so I was, I think she was coming at it from a far more spiritual perspective. I was coming at it from more psychological perspective. And the truth was smack in the middle and that's why we couldn't agree of saying, no, no, my way is the way. And it's not that I was dismissing all things supernatural or her dismissing all things human.

But I was more of the mindset of, no, no, no, let's look at all the human rational explanations first and then we'll get to that one. You know, whereas she was kind of seeing it from a different lens of like, no, we're not addressing this as it needs to be from a spiritual perspective. And I'm not stepping up.

I'm not blessing every kid's room every night. And I'm not leading these particular prayers. And I'm just kind of like leading my own spiritual boat while she and the kids aren't getting the direction and the headship that they needed. There also is a level of like, okay, you don't want to over spiritualize it. There is healing that needs to take place.

There are things that are open and wounds that are allowing certain things to happen. And my case is really extreme and very different. And that's another talk on another day. but that the spiritual warfare was getting in. But at the same time, I think people have this misconception, like they do healing. They're doing all the things, right? They do all the sacraments or going to mass.

They're doing this. Like, well, what's the problem? Because they're not 100% heal. It's not 100% better because there's not going to be someone and done. Boom, it's perfect. It's easy. I don't know. We have this misconception that you have to leave this perfect, happy life like this.

There's not going to be problems. And when there's no problems, that's when you're, you've made it. That's when you've arrived. You're never going to arrive. It's an illusion. I feel like the devil leads people in to put them down more in despair. But I wish someone would have told me, Matt, okay? Do you know how it's like, oh, when you have a baby, how hard it was going to be? Or when you get married, how hard it's going to be. I wish someone would have straight out. And maybe I just didn't read the saints right. I don't know. I wish someone would have told me how incredibly hard it was going to be to truly embrace a life of living out your faith,

following Jesus of doing what he's always like he's asking you to do. It's hard. It's grueling. It stretches you. It pulls you. You're always growing. There's not a stop in it. Like God is always breathing new life, new growth and stretching. And it hurts. Like there's not going to be a point where you're like, there is not, it's not going to happen until you're dead. Okay. So stop hoping for it. Stop wishing for it. Stop expecting it. There's not that next thing that's just like, I've arrived. right it's a journey and he see we know that it says that in the church like it's a journey but it's it's not going to be a fun one it's going to be a painful one but just like i think the more you go and the ebbs and the flows of the holy spirit and the will of god which he does speak to us like

god really does speak to us we listen to that demonic dialogue so easily that we talked about earlier but we so often just blow off when we hear those small still whispers of god in our heart and we we think that's the lie right isn't that the truth it's so upside down inside out but we believe the demonic dialogue but the real truth being breathed into us we just like it's so true this reminds me of an interaction i had with dr bob shoots who's helped both of us in different ways i remember saying in a prayer experience it was something like i can i feel like the lord is telling me like he's proud of me but i didn't want any of that i hated that yeah and then i said to him Actually, I feel like maybe I was telling myself what I want to hear.

He's like, man, I've been with you for a while. This doesn't sound like the sort of thing you want to hear. You're telling yourself the opposite continually or somebody else is. It's wild, isn't it? It's almost like how you think your critics are infallible and anyone who affirms you is just flattering you. Yeah. It's like that.

Even this morning, I was in prayer sitting out there on the back deck and something struck me. Wow, I think that's from the Lord. And there's this thing in me. Just downplay that, explain that away. No, no, no. You're just reading too much into that. it's a real it's a real thing and and i get so irritated when people are like well i don't

hear god he doesn't talk to me and i'm like i don't believe you because he does on a daily talk to you because i could be drunk out of my mind high in a bar totally doing everything i'm not supposed to back in the day when i was in high school and living that crazy life and i still hurt god's voice saying you need to leave you need to go don't do this don't take that next drink like you have a conscience and a live one the problem is we don't want to to be obedient to it. It's the level of obedience to that voice. And I tell my kids now in the way that they understand is like that is your compass to heaven. Either you want to listen, you want to follow, you're going to get there. But if you don't, then you're going to get eaten alive on the

way and you're never going to make that destination. And so God does tell us what to do because party was like, yeah, I don't want to go on the show. I'm not going to do like, I don't know if I could be that open and vulnerable, even though deep in my heart and I get my mark. orders and I go. Like I, that's how I live now because I've gone through too much and experienced too much and I know better that it's like, okay, God, just I hear your voice, I go. I don't let the fear set in and when I do, I have to remind me, no, this is God's will. Because when you're under that umbrella and you're truly living out the will of God and not ignoring it and not dismissing what the God of heaven and the universe is speaking

into me and not acting like it's nothing when it's everything. We so do. dismiss that too easily because that right there is everything. God is actually talking to you and you're just like, oh, it's not important. No, you get off your butt and you do exactly what he's saying. And then maybe that problem you're always complaining about won't be there anymore. But it's easier to complain and whine and moan and go to Instagram and chat GPT than to actually listen to the voice of God within you. So it's like, okay, either wake up, step up, show up to your fight that is a spiritual one. and we have a guide, but we have to listen. And I think that's where it's hard is that obedience

of actually following through with that. Because it's difficult. Yeah, I remember my wife and I were driving to a marriage, or wedding rather, somewhere with the kids in the back. And we got into this fight, and it was different. I wouldn't say the two of us were being overtly nasty. But I think I could tell. I was trying to hurt her.

It's funny, sometimes someone says, how could you intentionally hurt your spouse? I'm like, just give it five minutes. And I could feel she was doing it back, and I must have said some things that hurt her. And it was the first time in my marriage. I'd say we had, like, we've been married nearly over 19 years now, so this may have been like 14 years in.

It was the first time I realized this isn't unbreakable. I think up until that point, I just assumed, yeah, you get into argument. And I realized, you can destroy this. And that was scary. Was there a point like that for y'all that you got to where you realized, you know, we can tell ourselves God's will and, you know, I like what you said about the cross,

50% being not understanding it. But was there a point where you realized that? Like, okay, like this can end. Yeah, yeah, multiple times. And I think when I'd get to those dark spots, I'd feel like I'm almost between two species, years, but I can't go either way. Like, where do I go? Do we call this whole thing off? Do we just quit the marriage? Do we separate? Like, if we do that, I mean, just the mess that's going to

ensue from that whole, is that really the direction that God wants us to go in? So really not feeling any peace of going in that direction, but just feeling like it's, at least can create some clarity. It's going to maybe some self-constructed clarity, but I'll feel like a sense of control over all of this. But what's the other option? Just stay here in the mess. and the hurts and the kids and the dysfunction and the brokenness and the pain and the stuff. Like, I feel like I can't go in either particular direction and then you just feel trapped.

And that's when you just start crying out to God and then when you don't hear the voice back, it's just, you're just on that time of Calvary that he brought you so close to himself. It's like when I remember Mother Teresa was taking care of some sick dude and, you know, anything would hurt the guy. And, you know, and she said, oh, your suffering is that you're so close to Jesus

that he can kiss you. And the man's like, well, please tell Jesus who stop kissing me. And so, I mean, those are quaint religious tales to share with other people, but then when it, when it actually happens, it's just like, I don't like this kind of divine intimacy. Like this really stings and I don't see any way out and you're just left there to be with God, just crying out to him and all you have is trust and hope and faith. But there's, you know, like I said, there's years that ask those questions and there's years that answer and you have to be content knowing that sometimes it's God's will for you not to know. his will. As much as we think when we climb that pinnacle of sanctity, all things will be clear, I remember hearing one saint or blessed, he really felt a call to a religious life and he went to some religious order and like, sorry, we don't think you're, have a calling with us. And I think

it was in Italy and he went to another monastery and he spent some time discerning of them. And they're like, no, I don't think you got a calling with us. And his whole life he spent going to all these different orders never ended up officially being welcomed in any. And then he died. It was like, is there like some happily other after? It's like, no, no, there really was. It was just, he was, you know, wandering through the desert with Christ. He was in the garden of Getsamity with Christ, and that's where Christ was calling him. And it seems like, no, no, no, shouldn't there be a happily ever after? I remember reading of one, saint or blessed.

Same thing. She was in this marriage of the guy. And I guess he wasn't Catholic. Then he converted the faith. And then, and I think he was like an Episcopalian priest or something, converted the Catholic faith. The marriage turned toxic. He poisoned basically all the kids against the mother.

They ended up getting divorced. and went through like an annulment process that he got all the kids alienated from the mom and then she ended up becoming a nun and then he decided he wanted to come back into the marriage and she said no things have gone on and then she ended up dying with all the kids

still alienated from her that's the end of the story it's like that can't be like no there's got to be a director's cut where there's like this extended edition where everything else but it's just like to know that sometimes it's really messy and to have

to know that God is with me in the mess even if it doesn't make sense today or tomorrow. And so, yeah, there were times in our mirrors where it's just like, where are we supposed to go? You know, what do we do? What was that moment for you where you realized this isn't unbreakable or that I can break this?

It was scary. And it was just like you go into this despair, like, nothing's getting bad, it's not getting fixed, you know? You just are like, what can fix this? But you're looking on the outside and I think that's how I was like trying to handle it. I was going to Adoration.

I was doing all the things, but at the same time, I was blinded like to the, like I talked about earlier, like those cracks, the chink in the armor, like, where is it? Right. And it's easy to talk about it, but then to actually have to like really deal with it on a level of like, okay, I had to take a step back and really just look at things. And I looked at them on a spiritual level, not just like on a worldly level of like, okay, what kind of counselors need? What do we need here? What do we need that? What's the next thing I've talked about? but it was really like I looked at our family myself like we were like held hostage by the evil one with the level of the warfare coming at my kids and Jason and me and my health and just like everything crumbling down right and I literally looked at like we're just held hostage right now and but I'm creating my own cage here like you don't realize that you're likely that all the injustices and all the hurts and all the wounds and all the anger and all the resentment and things that have happened and things that have gone on and it piles up but then it's just like well what we're role do I really it goes back to that intentionality do I have to play in this and I really went into

prayer and I started fasting and because I didn't even want to pray I was so angry and hurt by Jason and things that had gone on I didn't even want to pray I was just like oh and it's just like how did I allow myself to get to that point I know better right but you do and it's so subtle and slow and dangerous over time that we let the evil one in and I started fast fasting again for our family, for Jason. I started really praying. I got the women that were praying for us and helping us and getting people. And then I think Dr. Bob Schutz was huge and instrumental as he'd been for so many people, right, in our marriage and just helping us and guiding us through this desert of what needed to happen. But there was this moment when I was praying

and I had this like, I don't know, in my heart and just like this little vision almost. And I was bawling. I woke up in the middle of the night. And I was at the feet of Jesus. And I go to adoration. I mean, I'm incredibly Eucharistic. And I loved you. And I can tell him anything. But then I was at his feet. And I couldn't even put my head up. I was in so much shame. And I was like afraid. And I'm like, and I knew it was him. I knew he's there. And I even said, I said, what's wrong with me? Like, and then I felt like he just he just showed me and he told me like it's everything that you have done that how you've treated your husband why you can't look at me it's everything all the injury everything you've done and I was so shameful and just like what like and it was this moment of just

like this coming to Jesus moment like you need to deal with you and what you've done and stop looking at him and what he's done, what he's afflicted and his shortcomings, but really take this sobering look at yourself, Kristolina, and just like the level of just, I was like, how can I not be able to look up at you? And then I realized in that moment, Matt, that I forgot and I really lost along the way that my job as a wife is to get my husband to heaven. That's my job. That's my sole job as a wife. I mean, that's serious. That's, and I totally just forgot. Like, you just, you just stop somewhere along the line. Like, I need to get him to have. That's my job. And I totally just, even stop praying for him, much less get him to heaven. Please, like, at that point,

who knows if I was even going, you know, I was so much, full of so much anger and hurt and pain and resentment that, that it was terrible. And I was like, no. And that I came, out of that, like, that's when I was like, I'm going to be proactive. I am not going to let the devil, like, choke us out and kill us. This, this is not how I'm going down. And I realize what a spiritual battle we were in, but also on myself and what I was doing. And that's hard to look at yourself. And what is it you're doing? Forget, okay, I get he's done all of this. And that's where my friend Andrew was like amazing. She's just like, you just forgive. Even if you don't feel it, even if you don't want it, you just forgive. It doesn't matter if he's going to do

this or he's going to do that or you think he's doing this. Who cares? She like smack me around. I needed that tough love. Like who cares? You forgive. You love. You pray. You felt like you go to war. And I just like that was it. And I went to war. And Dr. Bob really helped lead and guide us where we needed to go and things that we need to look at ourselves, look at our marriage, look at any distortions. and almost like he gave us this antidote that we were just missing all along but there's a point where you really have to just like, okay, who cares?

Like there's some really serious bad things that they may be doing, yes, God will deal with them. And even if like we're better and we're healing and we're doing this, but at the end of the day, let's say Jason's like, oh, screw this, forget it, I'm done. Da-da-da-da.

Okay, well, God will deal with him. That's not my job to deal with Jason. My job is to make sure I'm dealing with myself and doing everything I possibly can to get him to heaven. Now, is that the world's way of looking at it and poo-pooing? And that's not like, well, that's not enough. That's not the answer I want. That's not what I need.

Well, that's reality. That's the truth. And it's like, well, I'm sorry, that's not the route, but that is the path. You have to take. My job is to get him to heaven. But what do I need to do to get him there? And if I'm so broken myself and full of sin and wound and resentment, how am I supposed to help it?

You know, you just can't because sometimes you just need to put that. and one of the things that on yourself the air i'm thinking you know what is it it's like oxygen mask in the airplane oh no it's a micros micro oh okay it was the exact opposite of the point you were trying to make yeah you got to take care of yourself you do it because i heard the oxygen mask but sometimes you need to just like put the spotlight on you yeah yeah that's i hate right it is and you want to deflect but yeah it's like well what are you doing yeah i remember when we were in the midst of the mess this was earlier in the marriage um because they've been playing masses. I remember I was sleeping and I'm not a visionary. I don't have dreams as particularly

mystical prayer life. But I had this dream and it was of this, I was kind of standing on the brow of a hill overlooking a city that was being destroyed by this like flying serpent, dragon kind of thing. And I was standing off at a distance and that was kind of representing our marriage or family, just kind of under this attack. And then whatever spontaneously made me say, I kind of yelled out, not out loud, but in my sleep, I yelled, you know, Kristolina, I forgive you. And this beast just imploded. Whoa. And the pieces just fell down and drifted down to the city. And then I had to go down into the city because there were still embers and remnants of it that I had to still speak forgiveness into the smaller parts. And then I woke up out of this thing. And it was the

first time in my life I had ever understood the power of forgiveness. I think we think of forgiveness is just like, we'll let it go. And it's almost like a weakness. I just like, we'll just, you know, but to know that there's nothing more powerful than mercy. And one of the greatest weapons that a married couple has is the quickness to forgive before it's even asked for because the ask might not ever come. And if you're waiting for the forgiveness to come because you get the apology and you end up

with like a faux apology instead. Like, I'm sorry you think that I hurt you. Oh, my God. Does that fear, like fire, wow. Sorry you're so sensitive. Sorry, you feel that way. Yeah, I'm sorry you think I ever did that. If we're waiting for this pristine apology to come,

and then I will bestow upon you the forgiveness, it's just going to ferment and just grow into these just oceans of resentment. And so we've got to realize my virtue is kind of almost best measured by the reflex of how quickly I can forgive after suffering an offense. And if I'm sitting around waiting, okay, I deserve a big one here, you know, and it's been a month, it's been three years, you know, when's going to come, it's just creating all this space. And so I started to look at forgiveness differently

of like my forgiveness is not something I offer her when I get the apology I want to mend my hurt ego or whatever. You know, the forgiveness is something I owe her and God. And so it's something I need to give from my heart. Not necessarily out loud. I just want to let you know,

I forgive you for doing that five minutes ago. It's like, that could create more. It's like, no, this is between me and God. Yeah, yeah. And I'm going to issue this from my heart. And to me, it kind of nullifies a lot of resentment that will build up. otherwise. We're often told that forgiveness isn't a feeling, it's a choice, but phenomenologically,

how is that done? How is it experienced? What does it mean to choose to forgive? Well, I mean, the idea of forgive and forget is one of the most stupid expressions, I think, ever enter the human language. But it's like this idea that if you really forgive, then you just have amnesia of what that person did, and then you're a very forgiving person. No, like, sometimes forgiveness is being keenly aware of the offense, even if it's something that recurring on a daily basis or echoes of it. It's an act of the will. You know, John Paul the sudden said that love is an act of the will that consists of preferring the good of the other to the good of oneself. And so forgiveness is just an expression of that love. You know, I'm not going to hold on to this. Because if you hold on to

just that, an unforgiveness, it's just like I'm just holding onto a burning coal. Like, who is this helping by me just clinging to this thing? And so I've got to release it. And so I am releasing you of the debt of punishment that I think you deserve because of the injustice. And That may even include the hopeful apology in a sense that that's the debt. Like, I'm not even going to wait until that debt is paid or release you even of that. Obviously, for her own good or your own good, you would want your spouse to. Yeah, because you feel like I have a right to the recognition of my wounds, and then you have a right to some debt, you know, for causing this to me.

And it's just like saying the debt's paid in both directions. And if the apology comes, great, because it would be very hard to build an authentic marriage if we just, like, offended each other and then go, seek the other person out because the, in the Hebrew, when it says, a man shall leave his father and the mother, cleave to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. The word for cleave can be translated in Hebrew is hotly pursue, meaning I left the father and mother now. I hotly pursue my wife. And guys latch on to that. Oh, yeah, I like that idea. I'm going to hotly pursue my wife. I'm going to take her on a date and I'm on a romance or whatever. But it's like,

am I pursuing her at times of isolation? Like, am I going? Am I not just initiating life giving love with her. Am I initiating reconciliation? Am I initiating forgiveness? And that's the much harder thing to do because I was raised in a family like where if I was down and out, my mother was such a deeply empathetic person. She could just speak the word and I would just open all up to her. I wouldn't really need to go, you know, because she would send something and then we can move. And so I kind of went into a marriage of like, hey, if something's going on, she'll come to me and ask me what's wrong and then we'll work through it. And so if an offense has been suffered or whatever's going on and i'm just sitting around waiting for her you know it just might not come because she's you know

i think had to adapt to survival mechanisms of the suffering that she's been through and so she's not so much concerned about like what's your suffering and how can i fix it it's like no we got to just survive and so for me yeah it's been a long road of just just learning to forgive i remember one point we couldn't see eye to eye on something and uh you know so i go up to pray and i'm in the room and i made this i built this a little kneeler when we got married and if i think it's first anniversary or something I built it. And he actually just built it like St. John. I was like, yes. And so I went and I knelt on the thing and I'm like, God, okay, who's right here? Because I'm pretty sure it's me. But God opened my heart because she could

be right. Statistically, I think the probability is rather slim, but let's leave the opportunity for possibilities. Like, God, am I right? Is she right? And it's like God spoke to me and he just said, it doesn't matter. You know, just love her. What do you mean? Which is a really dissatisfying answer. What's all the matter? And what's funny is like, like, year later, we figured that we were both actually wrong in that whole discernment process. That reminds me of Jose Maria Escriber's lying about in married, when married couples fired, he's like, usually you're both wrong. I like that.

You're both wrong. It's this good default. Yeah. People want practicat. Like, well, practically, how do I do this? Well, spiritually, I can give you some tools to practically get through any darkness or what you're going on. But any darkness in your life whatsoever, even I told this to my kids before we left them

at college, which broke my heart. but it was good. But if you're really going through something and you don't know what to do and it's just overwhelming and suffocating because there are times, everybody experiences that, right, in their own way, is first go to confession,

like clear all the crap out that you're holding, whatever it is, get clean with God, get the pipes cleaned out so that you can actually hear what God is trying to say to you. And then after that, go to adoration. Truthfully is a groundbreaking Catholic AI app built to help you know,

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Don't sit with Netflix. Don't sit there and talk to chat, GPT. Sit and go talk to Jesus because there is nothing that you can take that he won't help you deal with. You won't give you the grace to manage. He won't give you what it is you need in that moment because he knows more than anything. And maybe you'll walk out of there just frustrating.

and I didn't feel I didn't hear anything. Who cares? Go to Jesus. He will help you. And even if you think something isn't happening, it always is. There's no way you can go to adoration and not be changed in some way, shape, or form, even if it's just a little bit, right? But go to confession, go to adoration and fast. Like, grow up a little bit spiritually and fast against whatever is coming after you. Because Jesus himself said there are certain demons that only can be conquered by prayer and fasting. And if you really just sit and think in your life right now, everything that's going on,

when is the last time you fast against something? And that will answer a lot of questions for yourself. Okay. Because if you're not willing to go to war and get rid of the thing that's afflicting you, well, then you're comfortable with it. You're befriending it. You're allowing it.

Because the devil will only stay as long as you allow him to be there, a guest in your own temple, in your home. So you need to decide, like, well, are you comfortable with them? this? Are you okay with it? Do you not? Well, if you don't want to go to war, then why? You know, these are hard questions because it's like we want to handle things on a worldly level, but we're not worldly people. We are people of God and we need to handle our problems as

people of God and separate ourselves from the world, period. That's just how I at least handle it. It's amazing what it does, though, Matt, because there was one time I fasted, there was something going on with our kids. And God is so good because at the end of the day or something, it's not always the answer I want. It's not always the solution I'm thinking he's going to give me. It's something completely different. But I'm like, something's happening. And then all of a sudden I hear some ruckus.

I'm going to bed and I hear some ruckus in the little cassider house that we have. And I'm like, what's going on? And so I pulled the door open and I hear two of my kids in there talking. And it's like they were just infused with like a truth serum. And I'm sitting at the door, just listening. And months of stuff I got in the mess. matter of 10 minutes of them going back and forth and this and that and just it's like a truth serum was just poured into the room and it just was like blah and I was like and I walked away

shaken I was like thank you Lord Jesus like thank you I didn't expect that but it's what I needed and it's the strong whole like the secrecy or whatever was there boom done over and it got dealt with Satan's head serpent's head cut off right there right and that's what we need to do we need to approaches in a godly spiritual way and not in a worldly way because we are not people of like pick your side but you cannot be in both um y'all wouldn't have come on the show unless you'd experience some degree of healing you know people don't tend to be angry with each other and go let's go talk about it and how so uh i know as we talked about it's a roller coaster and so no doubt there were moments of healing and uh clarification along the way but i mean has something happened more

recently that has brought about more healing and if so what was that you thank you for being here and sharing this i know i've been doing this a long time i am confident that this conversation is saving marriages and the people who are watching it will tell us in the common section that that is them so thank you for being so vulnerable really appreciate it oh no i i hope it's a consolation not only for the married but even for singles who are out there just like god what what is it going to take how long, because that was the prayer of the Psalms that's repeated over, how long, oh, Lord, how long, oh, Lord, that you're just crying out to him, like, when is the end of this?

And so to be able to enter into that, whether you're single, whether you're married and you're struggling with infertility, whether you've got marriage issues, whatever, just to lean into that, how long, O Lord, prayer, and just to be able to stay in that, you know, just with him. And he has the answer, you don't, but just to, so for us, it was a lot of praying that. And then we got to go on a marriage retreat over the past Lent with Dr. Bob Schutz and some of his prayer team. Could we give him a shout out? Oh, let's do it.

Oh, Dr. Ball. And so his ministry, I believe, is called, what is this? John Paul II, Healing Center, right? In Tallahasse. Beeline everyone to that. It is unbelievable in all the materials, the books. I mean, there's things online. Yes, please.

Marriage encounter weekend kind of things. And you could do it in your own home online, like just things they have. have there like if you're struggling just and you want to be private it's fine just to show up to that fight was it hard for you to agree to go to this or were you in a better place and you were open to going on a healing retreat you know we it had been on the table for a long time you know i had proposed it years ago but i don't think the timing was right and just wasn't received and so we uh we decided let's let's let's give it a shot and we went we were not in a good place we didn't even stay in the same room at the retreat center like we were it was just it was just

discerned it'd be better if we had time to process stuff individually and had a little space there. And so we went and met with him and his prayer team. And so this was just this past length. And it was it was heavy lifting stuff where you're really going into the ugly of all this stuff, but in a safe place. I mean, it's like going into an operating room. Okay, now we're going to cut your chest open and I'm going to cut your heart in half. And I'm going to stick my little latex gloves into your heart. I'm going to do it with me. And so it was messy. It was difficult. It was perfect. that was happening during Lent and was able to have time

where they were present there almost like a referee in a sense but then time that I could have alone with them and she could have a loan and then we could have time alone with God to process these particular things and we took almost a whole full week away from the kids

and had someone watch them so we could kind of just really do a deep dive and yeah so it was going under the knife for sure of just like what needs to happen here but it was a profound time of healing for us and it's not like it's over and okay we did it great we're healed it's like okay now what do we need to be doing on a daily basis

to maintain the process of healing it's not like oh we're healed um so we're watching these online marriage workshops and we're like you know trying to be very intentional about okay let's get the kids to bed earlier so we can sit and go through this workbook or go through this video and let's do this thing and it's it's weird but sometimes it just feels artificial because like when something is healthy you don't have to put it under a microscope i mean you didn't spend any time during our interviews just thinking about like your liver like it's okay it's doing just fine like so we're not like obsessed with it it's like when something is not well you really have to analyze the heck out of it and it's kind of unfortunate when you feel like we have to do that with our own

relationship we're like okay now let's have a conversation where I practice empathy and like we're laughing at this like Kristillina I hear you saying that you feel that I da da da and I'm not giving you a solution I'm practicing empathy and now I'm going to have reflective listening And the fact that we're laughing about it while we're doing it shows how foreign it is because we're in this, like, so often I'll say, Chris, I feel like you're not coming to me, you're coming at me. Like you have a legitimate issue, but the way she's coming at me makes me want to like, ching, ching, ching, ching, you know, like I've got to pull up a shield because you're coming at me with your issue instead of like coming to me with it. Like you're not treating like I'm a solutionating, but I'm the problem to everything. And so I just shut down, going to these defensive mechanisms. and then I flight or I fight or I flee or I freeze or whatever.

So it's giving us these tools and it's clunky because it's like, did, 23 years on the marriage circuit here doing this and writing 25 books and relationships or whatever. And then now having to practice like a two-year-old, okay, this is how I reflectively listen. And now I'm going to speak back to you what you said to me and then you're going to affirm me that I understand what you're feeling or you'll gently correct me that it's not really this, it's that.

And so like we're cracking up. You can tell him. Even now, he seems upset. Yeah, he's like, I have to do this. You know, but it goes at both. I mean, it's like we're both cracking up, trying to like, okay, now I'm going to explain something I'm not happy with about you. And because we're doing this little worksheet thing, then you have to learn how to make

me feel hurt, and we both stink at it. Okay. But this is the thing. And throughout our years of ministry and things we've produced or that we've written or that we've done, it's places we've been in our life and that we've like been dealing with it, that we have the knowledge to kind of put out there because we've dealt with it firsthand and what's going on. And I think that's where like that authority to be able to talk to other people about it is because we've gone through it. We've gone through that hell. We know what it's like

that we could say like, well, don't do this in relationships, but do this because those honestly were those mistakes we were making. And not with every single thing. we've put out there, but because we've gone through it ourselves. And I think in those times when you are struggling that much and we've had this healing, not to be ashamed of it either and just kind of hide it, but that bring people in that can help you, bring people in that love you and want what's best for you because there are some people that you're bringing in that are actually hurting your marriage that are distorting things that aren't helping you, that are giving you that advice.

Like, you should leave, you should do this. And that is not of God, you know. And so to guard yourselves, guard your marriage of who you're listening to. And it's an alignment with the church. It is the alignment with the covenant. It is alignment what God is teaching and what we're being asked of as a married couple. Or are those people in your life like, no, you shouldn't be doing this. You should be going and doing that.

And it's just like, no. You know, I'm ashamed to say when I was much younger, well before marriage, I remember listening to this married man's difficulties within marriage. And it just seemed awful. And I said with a false compassion, I may have floated the idea of separation. And to me, suggesting that a married couple separate or divorce out of compassion is not unlike suggesting euthanasia to someone who's suffering individually.

Like you can understand why someone would do it. Like, hey, maybe just end this. Because you don't know what else to do. Because you actually have nothing else to offer and you just want to help someone. And you're getting one side of it. That's right. Like there are two sides. There are things that happen because maybe this happened here, but what led up to that actually happening?

You know, there's always two sides to everything. But then also during our healing and with Dr. Bob, before we even did that, I went on something called grief to grace. And I was kind of scared because it was all about like being open and really kind of just putting my wounds out there on this retreat. And this grief to grace literally. It changed my life. I had so much healing up to that point,

but I always felt like, Matt, there was this residue, this, like, just like, if I could put it to words, like this tar. I just, within me that I just couldn't, like, shake. I couldn't get rid of it. No matter what I did, it was just like this, ugh. And I went on this grief to grace, and I felt like God went inside of this temple, and he claimed it for himself,

and he got rid of the tar. And it's like everything that had been done to me, everything that had happened, all the darkness, all the filth, all the wound, the just desecration of this temple, God went in and he claimed it for himself and he cleansed it. He purified it and he made it his. And I came out the other side a complete, like I felt like it really changed me, but it also brought me to that next level I had been longing for for so long of my spirituality with him, of my emotional. emotional, like, capacity, just like so many things happened. And I felt like I could breathe fully for the first time. If I could describe, like, actually just fully because it was always like, like, but this, I walked out, like, I could breathe fully. And I never had that before my entire life, especially with things that happened when I was younger that I carried all the way.

It was terrible. But it did. And anyone that has experienced just trauma in their past or sexual just trauma. and just things, just go on that retreat if you can. Brief to grace. And I was scared at first. Bishop Olm says like, no, this is going to be amazing. It'll be really good for you.

And I trusted him. And now the woman that heads that up is my counselor. And I just trust her so much. But she has helped me so much in my healing and in my journey. And just like, God will always tell you what you need. Because God for the longest time told us and was telling me, you need to go with Dr. Bob shoots and you need to help. but I kept saying stupidly, no, no, like that pride.

You know, you hear God's voice. He's giving you what you need. He's telling you. And then there I was. Just totally spirited, just so be like, no, I'm not going to go. I'm not going to expose it. I'm not going to blah, blah, blah, blah. And who could blame you?

Hey, you want to just get like emotionally naked before the stranger? I know. No. But also, if I really looked at it, I was being honest, I was scared. I was really scared. I was scared to go to certain places within me. And I didn't want to admit certain things and own up to certain things. or, like, face certain things, you know?

And then it got to a point where it's like, God put us in a place where it's like, I had no choice. Like, you're going to deal with Dr. Bob. But, you know, and granted, thank God. You know, it got us to that point where we went and saw him. Yeah, and the grief to grace is really tilling the soil that had to happen before the retreat. No, because I'm already totally healed.

I don't think we fully could have healed to fight and go either, you know. Yeah, my healing of the whole person has already taken place. So it's more, no. So she went to that thing, but it was really, I think, a necessary thing to have the openness to receive the graces that were awaiting. And so for me, I think my healing is more now something I'm starting to enter into more deeply, whereas she's been doing a lot of the heavy lifting up until now. And so it's a process. Because I know, like, before we got married, like, I kind of had this idea of like, okay, I'm doing everything I'm supposed to do. Like, we're practicing chastity and we're discerning.

We have a spiritual director and we're recording, not simply dating. Like we're doing all these right things. I remember even doing this promise to St. Joseph as a young single guy that, you know, you consecrate your chastity to St. Joseph and he'll bring the right spouse to you at the right time. And so I kind of had all this almost a legalism of like, I'm doing all the right things. And then I'm going to get married and it's going to be this happily ever after. And when we got married, it almost felt like this bait and switch where I was crying out

to God and prayer. Like where I'd even pray to him of just like God, like even the dogs, like even the dogs you feed. you know, and I feel like I'm starving to death. Like, what father among you when his son asks for a fish would hand him a stone or scorpion when I ask for bread? Like, you know, and I'd pray that to God like, Father, are you?

That like I asked for this good thing, this holy marriage, this sacrament, this bride. And I waited until marriage. And I did this and I did that. And then now it's just this dumpster fire. And it's this mess. Like, where are you in the mess? Where did I go wrong? Like just really questioning myself.

And, you know, and the church does offer, you know, for really severe cases, is a canonical separation where you could present the issue to the church and they could give because the church does teach like if let's say a spouse is being horrifically physically abused the church will not say like oh well you have to stay put because you're married you know you have a right a duty to create the space that you need for your own mental or physical health or whatever so the church will not deny people that and the church even has a process that you can go through you know and take that if you want but for me it was just like there's extreme cases that happen that it does need the separate like you weren't wrong but there's some

somewhere it's just like, oh, this is my way out. This is my way I can just, you know. And that's where it's like you have to decide like, yeah, what's the intention behind trying to do something like that, right? Would this just be easier? Because it's like you're doing the things. Like Jason said, well, I was doing the things. Everyone says, I'm doing the things.

But are you actually engaging in the things? Are you letting them transform you and changing with the spiritual things you're actually doing? It's almost like surfacey spirituality versus like allowing it to penetrate your depths. And there's a really big difference. Yeah, so the proper use of the separation be a medicinal one of hoping for reconciliation by bringing the parties apart so the temperature can go down so you can hopefully have reconciliation. Other times it's a preamble to an annulment if the case is like so severe and like you physically need to be safe.

And so the church would recognize the need for that. But yeah, it's not meant as an escape of like this hurts so I'm out. And so I need the church to bless my lack of commitment to this thing. And so that's why it's so important. I have just a good spiritual director or multiple ones that have eyes on it that can really see that you're being vulnerable and accountable to so they can direct. Like, no, that's not the answer this is.

But yeah, her going through grief through grace and then the JP2 healing stuff was really a bomb on our marriage. And one, like I said, it's not just you go on a retreat, you know, we're good. It's just like, okay, now we're starting to get these tools. There's no hope, right? Yeah, that I wish I had 20-something years ago. we're kind of starting from scratch, eight kids in and 23 years down the road. Yeah, but the strongholds that were suffocating and choking our marriage out were severed.

And we could not do it on our own. We needed help. And it's like there was some serious spiritual things, sucking the life out of our marriage. And they needed to be dealt with head on and they needed to be severed. And we just, you need outside help sometimes in order to do that. So don't be ashamed, but there are real serious threats within the marriage or people that are in your lives that you need to get rid of. I don't care if they're hurt.

I don't care if they're sad or who's going to tend to them or who's going to help them. Well, who's saying it's your job to do that in the first place. Did you have individuals, friends, family like that that you had to? Even in my own personal healing, I had to cut all my family members out because some of them were toxic, some of them were not good. And just things that happened to me when I was little that I was just lied to about. You know, you can even take that as a circumstance. I'm just like, you know deep down.

People know what they know, okay? That person is not 100% good for me. But then there's also this guilt that seems to be intertwined in it. But I can't, you know, like, but I'm helping them with something. Or like, they're my project almost like this like unspoken project. It's funny. It makes you feel better. That's the same sort of advice you would have given to a teenage girl who's dating a guy.

I'm helping him. I'm bringing him to Jesus. She would have slapped it. Are you kidding me? And now it's something similar. same thing, but it actually happens within marriages. And I've seen it on other people's marriages, too. Like some things are just not okay, but you justify it somehow. And it's just like, no, you cut that serpent's head off and get it out. It's encroaching on your life in your marriage and

it needs to go away. And the things with us, I'm talking like serious spiritual stuff that that we needed help removing. So don't be ashamed you need to get help. It's not a lack then or there's something you're missing. Like sometimes you, even Jesus in the garden of Getsemini had an angel sent to him to tend to him because he needed help. It's okay to receive. And we're not good at that, especially we're wounded, is receiving. And you just need to learn to receive sometimes that it's okay. You can't do this. But I'm going to send you someone to help you do this. Yeah, they're just a lot of prudence is needed there because there's plenty of spouses, I think, that are feeling so alone and they're seeking legitimate consolation,

but then finding it in ways that aren't safe because, like, maybe your spouse is not receptive to you in the least, and you want to be received, you want to be heard, and it's so tempting to find somebody else to hear you, and that's for us why the counseling was so helpful for us to kind of remove the barricades of being able to be received by her, because I felt like sometimes there's so much going on in her

that she's battling and the demons that she's fighting and all the stress and struggles that she's under with the kids and all that stuff, that there just wasn't room for me. And there's just no vacancy. I'm just trying to keep it all together. And admiring the courage that it takes to plow through all that stuff,

but then just feeling like, okay, well, where do I take my feelings? And what do I deal with? And that's why the counseling, I think, has been so helpful for us of just helping her to receive me and vice versa, because you're going to a vulnerable space.

Okay, I'm going to open up to you, my wound, what are you going to do with it? You know, are you going to poke into that? Are you going to use it against me later? And so it really helped us to enter into uncharted territory. on our own marriage. I know people are going to want to watch a lot more from y'all, your website and YouTube channel. I want to quickly shut that out before we forget. Yeah, the website is chastity.com,

and she's also running women made new.com. We also have another one called JP2 Trails, do wilderness backpacking retreats. Can chat about that later if we want. And then our YouTube is YouTube.com slash my name, Jason Everett. Could you tell me about this backpacking trails? Yeah. Yeah. So we did a retreat in Poland. the while back, and I asked the organizers, can we just have one day, just go hike where John Paul the second hiked? And then so we carved out time, and we actually found what's called the John Paul 2 Trail, which is a trail that John Paul himself would go hike in Poland. And so I brought a copy of my beaten up, tattered, noted up, love and responsibility book, which is what he would

share, portions of that manuscript with young adults. And we just kind of sat down on the trail, and I kind of taught love and responsibility. And we're like, wow, this is, we got to do this back home. And so we came back and did another one state side. And we announced it, hey, we're going to do this backpacking thing. And 250 young adults. signed up in the first 48 hours. And we're like, whoa, I think we're on to something here. Then we did another one in Montana. Then it was Canada.

Then it was Arizona. Then it was here. And then it just blew up. We just did ones in Yosemite, Switzerland, the Dolomites of Italy. The next ones that we're going to do are going to be one. We're planning on Codiac Island in Alaska just for men with a guy who's a Navy ex-Navy seal. We're going to learn theology of body while also learning wilderness survival skills for just eight, nine days out with like grizzly bears and stuff like that.

Actually, no, it's going to be like six, seven, eight. I'm not going to be gone that long. And then she and I are going to lead one to France. That's going to be this May where we're going to fly to Paris, go to Leshue, visit St. Torres, and then go to hike to Malse Michel on the bay there, and then go to Salem, which has like the best Gregorian chant in a monastery in Europe, and we're just going to take up monastic life for two and a half days with the monks. So the women on the retreat will go to their cells, and the men will go to their cells,

and we'll just have a silent retreat with the monks. So some are pretty epic like that. and we're going to go to the Dolomites next summer too. And then some are just, hey, we're just going to do a one or two day hike here in the Rockies. And so the idea behind it is that I think the church really has a grave responsibility, particularly to single Catholic young adults to help them find each other. Instead of like, here's an app, you know, and here's an encyclical, good luck to you. It's like, no, no, no, we need to create opportunities in the flesh.

So are these for single people? Most of them are for single Catholic young adults. We've done some for Father's Son or eventually maybe do a married couple as one or engaged couples when we get there but most of them are just for like people in their 20s or 30s. So last time I was on Pints we mentioned it

and like the next hike we did at the Channel Islands it was like literally entirely Pints viewers came on that one and so it's not just me though. Christopher West is going to be leading a ski trip where he's going to teach theology the body and then ski, we're looking at Lake Tahoe for this winter for him. Bobby Angel's leading one on the Channel Islands and Jackie Francois

Sarah Swofford and Andrews. So we're in different stages, like I can't take on all the requests for the hikes. So we're having all these other kind of speakers go and you get formation, then you get fellowship. And it's just for people who love the cathedral of creation and go. And to me, you're so ready to receive the gospel when you've laughed and sweat and bled with other people. And then it's 10 o'clock at night. You light up a campfire and you just hang out there and talk theology. And it's just been a real gift.

So that's jp2trails.com is that website and that ministry. And does it say how old you need to be, you know, like 20 and 30? Yeah, I mean, we don't really draw a hard line like, you're 39 and a half, you're out, you know, but typically the demographic is all, you know, 20s, early 30s of people. And then some will say, hey, this is for married couples, engaged, father's son, but all the ones we've got in the docket right now, you know, are open, like the young adult ones, typically young adult, like the bigger Europe ones, some married couples will come as well. And they're kids, this last one we had is a couple of kids, even when we brought Michael

from our 15-year-old. Yeah, we had like 80 people come on the one we just did to Europe. And that was not a lot of hardcore hiking. We did Blessed Pierre-Georgio's hike that he would do up Mount McCrone and we did some smaller hikes in the Dolomites and then went down to see Pope Leo

with the youth Jubilee. So some of those are more family-oriented, but kind of the core of the ministry is like, let's help Catholic young adult singles who just want to get their vocation rolling. Let's just push them along that path. Well, this morning before we came in here, I put out a question to local supporters

about hard questions they may have about marriage or their own marriage. And so we're going to get to that, but let's take a break first. All right, here we go. I'm just going to say anonymous for everyone because some of these are really quick. Can I jump in there real quick?

Josiah taught us that you don't even have to share it. If you just copy the link to share it, that tells YouTube that you shared it. And it makes more people see the video. So if you don't feel comfortable enough to share and you can just copy the link, it'll tell YouTube that you did share it with somebody, that you just hit the share button,

even if you don't follow through. But they should share it anyway. That's bananas. But it'll still make the algorithm. Jess Jo's Zoya. He knows his stuff. Yeah, he does. Whereas my friend the other day, he knows I have a YouTube channel.

It's like, oh, wait, so there are actually channels. You have like a page? We're all at different stages of knowledge. All right. Anonymous asks, as a divorced Catholic mother going through the annulment process, I want to help other women who are struggling with that final question, do I end this marriage or continue? suffering. What's the litmus test for whether the catechism, 2383 applies? 2383, the separation

of spouses while maintaining the marriage bond can be legitimate in certain cases provided for by canon law. If civil divorce remains the only possible way of ensuring certain legal rights, the care of the children, or the protection of inheritance, it can be tolerated and does not constitute a moral offense. I mean, how do you know? Obviously, you have to take it to God in prayer first and foremost. Secondly, to find a really good spiritual director to help you through. If you look at any king, prime minister, president, they always surround themselves the cabinet of advisors to give them advice on foreign diplomacy, economic affairs, military intelligence.

If they know how to listen well, they'll govern wisely. And so I think in the same respect, when you're making such a monumental decision as this, to surround yourself with people who you really love and respect. And if you're finding mixed opinions or everyone's like point this way, that way, that can give you a bit of reassurance, but really it's got to be a decision that you need to make out of peace, not out of fear, but I really feel peace and the depth of my soul that this is the direction that God is calling me to. And obviously it would have to be a pretty extraordinary means to have to reason to be able to have to go through a canonical separation process.

But yeah, I think what she's saying is so true. There's so many people in the church that have whether they've gone through a divorce or they've gone through an annulment or they're somewhere in the process kind of feel like second class citizens in the church and that no one is ministering to them. So I think to the extent that she can realize that she is not alone in this and the more people that she can witness to, I think that fellowship really needs to happen. Because I've heard people say, I can't receive communion because I got divorced. It's like, no, no, no, no, no, that's not what the church teaches. It's if you got divorced and you got remarried without getting an annulment and you're living in this way, then not receive holy communion. They're like, oh, I just thought

because we went through this and I had an abusive spouse and, you know, we ended up separating. I can never receive communion for the rest of my life. It's like, no. It just shows the lack of ministry going on between people and that state of life. Could we just clarify, too, that an annulment isn't an option when the marriage gets bad? It's not like at some point it hits a point where it's really bad and now that's when you get an annulment. Yeah. What is an annulment? Well, an annulment, strictly speaking, is a declaration of nullity. It's essentially not looking at how bad are things today. But rather, on the day that you got married, did two of you actually form a sacramental bond? Or did you walk into that marriage as two single people into that wedding,

and you walked out of the wedding as two single people? Yeah, you went through a ceremony, but there was not a true gift of self. And so different things could serve as an impediment to forming that sacramental bond, whether it's pressure or lack of knowledge. I mean, all kinds of things could be going on. And that's why the annulment process is such a thorough investigation of the state of affairs of the day you got married. And so it's not that things went south here and I want to get out and I want to get remarried, but a real investigation is the stuff that was going on now

present in a seminal form at the time of my marriage. And I knew it and went through it anyway. Or I was completely oblivious and my spouse should have told me that these things were going on and how could I have freely entered into a union when these things were being hitting from me? That's what the process is intent to drum up.

And people that I know that have gone through the process some people are in timid all it's so invasive and traumatizing but i think when it's done as it should be people it's extremely healing and validating and prayerfully done so ideally that's the way it should be done by tribunals in a way that it really provides healing and closure and clarity so it's not allowing you to enter into a second marriage it's just recognizing that the first marriage was null it never took place and it's because of that that you're free to enter what is a marriage should you choose to discern that so back for this individual who wants to help other women who's struggling.

One, that she's not alone. I have talked to so many countless women, especially with the struggles in our marriage and that have actually gotten divorced in the church and annulments. But there's also this cloud of shame over them in the church. And there's almost like there's not a place for them, right? It's like, oh, you're divorced or you're an older. It's like this shame that's kind of put on them.

don't feel welcome. They don't feel like that they can come back to the church. And there are some real circumstances where everything was valid and this was what God wanted. And they should be able to come and experience the sacraments, the grace, the love, the welcoming. Like they're not these black sheep that Mother Church is like shunning away. There's real serious circumstances that have happened in their lives where this needed to take place. And it was the will of God. I'd never condone divorce or nothing like that, but there are serious situations where that does need to happen. But those people also need to have a place among us within the church if that has happened and not feel shamed because of it. And just to let her know, like, she's not alone and it's okay, but that just trust in the process, trust in God's grace.

And as long as she has that spiritual director, she is right with God and she knows she's doing what she's supposed to. soon, not using this as some sort of out, and she knows that, you know, because at the end of the day, this is between her and God, not even her and her spouse. It's between her and God, because ultimately that's what it's all about anyway, right? You just keep moving forward in his will, and he will take care of it. But at the same time, just know there's a ton of people in the church that are going through this, that have gone through it. And there is a place for them inside of the church. and she will take care of you if you let her. This individual says,

what advice would you give to a couple who's fallen into the dynamic of the wife wearing the pants and leading instead of the husband? How can a stubborn wife and passive husband help each other step up and grow into the traditional roles without crossing into each other's roles because of fear, insecurities, lack of respect or discipline? Yeah, I can speak to the men.

I think one of the most effective things for him is just to be around other good Catholic men. We don't necessarily need a speech, I mean, because men learn manhood from men, not from a book or a curricula. I mean, I've learned plenty through books. And, I mean, Devin Schott has some amazing stuff as his new book, The Rule. I just got started on that one. It's these, you know, directives and counsels for husbands and fathers, really good practical stuff.

So I'd recommend Devin Schott's book to him, S-C-H-A-D-T. That's how he spells Shod's last name. But he's got this brand new book. I think it's by Sophia. I have it over here. It's called The Rule. And it's just, you know, really clear councils and directives for spiritual leadership in the family. So Devin Shodd's book I'd recommend, but I don't know about you, but just being around other good dads who are living their vocation, they don't have to say anything.

I just see the way they kind of run their domestic church, and the husband is the priest of the domestic family. And when you have a priestess taking that role, it's a distortion going on. And so, you know, Crystal's very open and honest about that. Like I hadn't taken on that role in a certain sense of like, okay, we all need to do this devotion and that devotion and this devotion because I was more working in a side. Milo, spiritually speaking, but I knew that something was disordered if she's the one calling the family to prayer. And then I'm tagging along and we're going to go do this stuff. Like something's deeply off. But I remember talking to a buddy and he said to me, hey, do you remember Matt from Steubenville? I'm like, I knew him, but I just didn't know him now. I know who you're talking

about. And he's like, yeah. He's like, did you know this other guy, Matt, not you? He said, you know, he gets up at 4.30 every morning. So he's got two hours of morning prayer before the wife and the kids get up. So he's got two solid hours of the interior life before the family. family life begins. And I'm like, wow, you know, and I thought about it. I'm like, I'll get up a little early for morning prayer, but it ain't two hours. And I remember Devin Shodd once saying that the measure of a man's love for his wife is the extent to which he defends his interior life of prayer. That's how much he loves her. And I was like, okay. You know, so by being around other good guys, you know intuitively, I need to step up my game. But if we're living in isolation,

kind of going lone ranger we're thinking well i'm doing a pretty good job i'm not going to strip clubs i'm not doing this i'm not doing that we go to mass on sunday but then you get out of the round good guys and you're like okay i need to step it up because if you're surrounding yourself it's like going playing sports if i'm playing sports against a bunch of seventh graders i'm going to destroy him but if i'm playing against you know NBA guys like okay i need to ways go same thing in a life of virtue if you surround yourself with people who are living in vice you will see their faults and your virtues but if you hang with the virtuous people, you see their virtues and your vices. And as a result, you progress better in the interior life.

So I would say to the guy, you've got to get plugged into other good Catholic guys. I would say they both need some serious counseling. Oh, really? Because he's just like surrendering his manhood and he's just being lazy about it because there's some sort of wound that's keeping him like dormant in his manhood and his like, at least that's what I'm saying, like not stepping up to the plate. No, no, no, no. And she needs her own healing too because there's probably something within.

her that's having a hard time just like stepping back and thinking oh he's just weak he's not going to handle he's not going to do it the way i would do it i'll just do it better i better just get it down because he's not going to do it and even if he gets up and does it wrong she might have a hard time just sitting back and like that's not how it's supposed to be you know what i mean there's a control factor there and when i hear that because i lived it so i know it and i recognize i see i smell it like it's there and they both need healing to right order because they don't know the level if they have kids that they are distorting their views of role within marriage and even how they're going to look at the church and what they're going to be asked and expected of because my

mother completely handicapped me with showing me that women run the house well they run everything they make the money they do everything you better be in to penny you better take care of your something don't submit to a man you're going to be okay i was anything but okay so it's like just also look at the effects of what you're giving because a lot of the times you don't know how to have that essence of a Catholic wife and that femininity and that soft heart and run the household and be submissive and maybe you have an aversion to making the meals and cooking the dinners and cleaning the house and it's like ugh like but that's a wound so what is it like what are you avoiding so really to look at yourself of like well my husband's weak and he's not stepping up it's

like well how are you emasculating him also you know because that's a factor sometimes in these marriages where they flip the script and that woman's completely a mask masculine the husband or the husband is just like being lazy and wants to just play his video games and wants to like, you know, be on Netflix or whatever it is and just lets her do it. Okay. And there's just like a weakness on both areas of a vocation. So maybe look at that and to maybe go to counseling. I know it's harsh, but we don't have that much time. Yeah. And what she might not realize is that what she really wants is his strength. Yeah. But she's not going to elicit that until she shows her softness. It goes both ways. And she's thinking, I need to step up the strength because he's not

doing it, that's going to make him just shut down and be like, I'm not going to follow the lead. I mean, I'll just do my thing and be over here, but I'm not going to. But if she's just soft and vulnerable and feminine, I think the man will feel his own lack and needing to step it up without her saying it. Because if she treats him like he's the problem, he'll shut down. If she treats him like he's the solution and just being in her own role, that'll evoke him to want to step up and fill his. Here's an anonymous question. This individual says, it's a fella. He says, I feel like we're in a rough spot. Three kids, under five, two-bedroom apartment, sleep training, potty training, not sleeping in

the same bed, not sleeping at all, no babysitters, no family around. At the end of the night, we just go to sleep, me on the couch, get as much sleep as I can for work the next day, her in the bedroom with the baby, rinse and repeat. Any advice? Well, we had a spot in our marriage where we had to physically move. We moved to an entirely different state. I was working at the time with Catholic answers out in San Diego, traveling doing chastity talks,

and I'd be on the road, and then everything would hit the fan back home, and we had no family, just zero. And so she's sitting there trying to juggle all this stuff while I'm gone, and then I come back, and she's burnt out, and it was just this vicious cycle. So we decided we need to just pick up camp and we moved to a totally different state

just to be surrounded by family. Now, I don't know to what extent such a move would even be practical or possible, you know, for him. But yeah, there's times of life where we're in this vast, valley of tears and it's tough and it's rough and the season's not going to last forever. But yeah, when you got all those kids of sleep deprivation, you're like, what did I get myself into? How could this possibly be God's will for our family? I knew a young couple on the East Coast and their friends got pregnant on their honeymoon with twins and then had the baby

and then her fertility came back two months after delivery and they got pregnant with triplets. So they created five human lives before their first wedding anniversary. So imagine your second anniversary you got five kids running around her diapers i mean you'd be pulling i mean that's that's multiply right there but um i would say to the extent that you're able to carve out time to get her away from the kids and you away from the kids whether that's like can we find a sitter somehow just to watch the kids for two hours so we can have some time to go on a date night and not talk about kits and just to enter into one another so i would say do what you can to find a sitter that that's not an incurable situation. And then if you can maybe make a drastic move to get around the family, it could be

a marriage saver. So I would say if you get into this loop of just surviving and not thriving in any aspect, doesn't sound like in any aspect, at least in their marriage, they're like thriving at all. There are periods, there are seasons, but then there's a time where it's like you get into this like really unhealthy loop and then you start going into despair. That's not okay. When despair starts kicking in, that's what it's like, okay, I need to be proactive against this somehow. And if it's just like, and I bet you that couple has not sat down and just looked at each other in the eyes intentionally and really connected, even like just looking at each other. Because even that can be uncomfortable.

And that's like, whoa, you're looking at me, you know, when we hadn't done that in a while. And then we have this comment, I'm like, wow, he's looking at me because you get so busy. And you're like, you're like side talking and you're not even looking at each other. And so maybe just start with even just taking 15 minutes in the bedroom, sitting down and connect, looking at each other, just hugging each other, like just physically connecting if you can. I'm telling you that'll mean the world to his wife. That will mean the world to her because she's drowning just as much as he is. And then also get a mommy's helper. Like, it's okay to get help.

I felt so much shame, Matt, in the beginning of our marriage, because I wanted to fit in that Catholic persona and I didn't want help. but no one's going to help. I can do this. I'm supposed to do this, right? No, it's garbage. I was burying myself. Get a mommy's helper. Even if she's there watching the kids in the living room,

you two go in the bedroom and you just hang out, you talk, you read a book to whatever you need to do, do it. You know, you don't even need to leave the house, but having someone there just to watch the kids and have that break from children is everything. There are things that you can do instead of saying in this unhealthy loop and then a spiral and then you start getting these like, little addictions of like looking online at night right before you go to bed because your wife's

in the other room. So you're like, oh, I'm going to entertain myself and do this. And then it's like your starting things are unhealthy and it seeps in and it's not okay. Does that make sense? Yeah. Who knows? Maybe you could reach out to the local pastor, youth group, like, hey, are there teens that can do volunteer babysitting? Like if they're in such a financial crunch where they can't afford a $20 an hour babysitter, you know, maybe there's some volunteers at the parish that would be able to have a date night where they could drop off the kids and then have a few hours but just for him to take the situation and like crystal said we start these marriage exercise right okay now look at each other in the eyes talk about your day and you go through these things at

night and it's been been super helpful to be just being more intentional in how we're connecting so it's also nice as you grow an honesty in marriage when you can tell your spouse what you need and then to say like there's been multiple times I've said to my wife here's what I need now you tell me what I can do for you to get you to the place where you can give that almost like approaching it from a selfish perspective. Like if you take care, it's within your interest that your wife be well. Yeah.

And it's within your interest that your husband feel loved and be banging on all cylinders because that's the kind of husband you want. So, okay, so yeah, take care of your wife because God has called you to love other people as yourself. Yes. But if you're not a saint yet and you're more like me, then love your wife so you can have a better marriage.

Like take care of her. I used to come home from these trips, and I'd say, what do you need? Go have a bath. I'll put the kids to bed. I'll clean the kitchen, right? And it was because I want her to be a wife to me. And she needs to transition out of mom to wife mode. So I just love that advice.

Like it's within your interest that your wife or your husband be well for you. So what can you do to help them be okay? Yeah, and if you can't communicate your needs to your spouse, it's definitely time for counseling. because it's a sign that there's a lack of receptivity or a lack of trust that I could put my needs before you and they'll be received or paid attention to. Do you want to share some of the things I've shared with my wife because this horrifies people.

Oh, yeah, horrifies. Especially, I've had college girls look at me like I was the demon from hell. I'm like, when I come home from like this trip, it'd be really good if you'd look good. Like I don't want vomit on you. Like look good. Put some makeup on.

Look good. Greet me at the door. This is what I need. And we definitely are coming together. And it's beautiful. no you're horrified but she's like yeah okay um and like that's what i need i don't want to come home to an exhausted wife and i understand you might be exhausted and i don't mean to pretend i just want you to look exhausted i just yeah i just want you to pretend you're not now okay obviously there's

always qualifiers with any strong statement that you make so i understand that she might have every reason to be exhausted but it was like if you want to know yeah like when i call you on the road if it's possible not to have kids screaming in the background and you can go to another room so we can connect for this one 20 i shouldn't have shared that all right next one she had things for me just like if you could stop being so sexually attractive i'm like i can't it's impossible abstinence is a too great of a cross for any woman to be if they're not friends uh this individual it's a man says what's your advice for navigating difficult perhaps toxic relationships with spouse's family especially parents and siblings is it ever acceptable to ask the spouse to cut some of

these off. Yes. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I think the spouse should hopefully be able to see it themselves of like, we need to create some distance here. But in the reality that that's not happening, hopefully the spouse would be able to communicate to the other one. Something's got to give here, honey. Like, this is coming between us. This is creating friction between the kids. Like, we need, because a man shall leave his father and his mother, cleave to his wife, and they become one flesh. You're not supposed to bring them along with you into the whole thing. I mean, it's not even God's design. Then we might feel a juggle, I need to honor my mother and my father, but then, okay,

the sacrament comes, in my opinion, before all. And that's a way to honor your mother and father by fulfilling the mission that you should be having it in your marriage. So, yeah, I think you need to be able to talk to your spouse. And hopefully if it's a legitimate gripe that you could see where they're coming from, agree with it, and put the pants on and create the space that needs to happen. But sometimes it's mandatory, not just accept. it's your duty. And there are mother-in-laws that don't want to let go of their sons and

interject themselves. And I've seen that in multiple, like just friendships and marriages where it's just like, you know what, there's not three here. There's two. And it's just like, you need to step away. But at the same time, that's up to him or her to just like, there has to be those boundaries. But I think one thing, I think somebody told me it was Joy Pinto. I was on their show. And And one thing I asked about marriage, just advice, and she goes, you know what, honey, blood talks to blood. She said it, like, you talk to your family members if there's a problem, and then they talk to their family members, and then there's just like, it just makes it easier. Because you can say the hard things to your family is to where if your spouse is those hard things to your family, there could be really hurts and wounds. And she goes, just keep that line, and that's always helped us in our marriage.

Yeah, I think that's excellent advice. it's also true that sometimes, and I've got people who are very close to me, I won't say more than that, where the man had to confront her family, like her mother and father, because of how she was treated. And yeah,

would have been maybe easier for her to bring it up, but he went to bat, went to defend her. It's kind of cool. Yeah, because I think what often can often happen too is an unhealthy enmeshment, you know, where one spouse or the other is going to their family

for certain emotional needs. needs that aren't being met within the in the marriage and what's needed is like no no no you need to go into that lack into counseling and work this out with your spouse instead of saying this isn't working so I'm going to dump all my emotional needs and get counsel elsewhere you know obviously we need our families they're super helpful the ideas and just ditch them all together but it's got to be put in proper order this woman says any practical advice to bring a cynical spouse to the faith he's a good man we share an interest in pursuit of truth but differ when it comes to god and the veracity of the scripture, aware that as the wife, it's not my role to lead as such,

but to influence and counsel, encourage, and praise. Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of times we get the transcendentals backwards of lead in with what's true and then what's good and then beautiful is kind of over here. And so when we do arguments, it's like, well, this is why this is true, but, you know, truth is debatable, what's good, you know, people can go back and forth on, but beauty is irrefutable. And what I mean by that is if she's living out her vocation as a Catholic woman, To me, that diffuses a lot of cynicism.

It's like, wait a minute, the more my wife goes to church, the more tender she's becoming, the more loving, the more respectful, the kinder. How do you argue with it? As opposed to if she's going to church more and she's getting more judgmental and preachy and all these things, that'll make him, I think, a lot more cynical towards the religious life.

But to the extent that she's embracing her own vocation, that her primary path to sanctity is how well she loves her husband. To the degree that she takes that call to sainthood seriously, I think his heart will be softened enough. So as opposed to, I need to give him this book and have him read this podcast. Then it's like, I need to fix you. Once the guy gets the sense that he's her new project, I think he's going to shut down

pretty bad. I'd fast for him without telling him. Don't act like, oh, I need to be fast. What is there like demons or, you know what I mean? How they could take that on. But at the end of the day, just pray, give it to God fast. Say your peace. Say it like don't nag your piece, you know, of it.

That's a thing. And so just pray for it. And so just, just pray for him. And God will work in his heart through you in that as well. Okay. So here's a question for you and then for you, Jason. So this person says, outside of the bedroom, what does a wife need from her husband to feel a desire,

full openness and willingness toward the marital act? I think when you, at least for me, okay, it's like when I feel like I'm getting that affection outside of the bedroom. You know, it's not always just in the bed, but it's on the outside of just like the hand holding or just like attention or just spending some time together, going on dates, which has been huge for us and making sure we're going on a weekly date and spending time, like putting time aside. But what I'm finding is not just me, but with a lot of women, like when we feel safe and we feel secure in our marriages, we will open up, like, beyond, I think, even their expectations of what it is they want. when we're in this fight mode and protective mode and we are laying suspicion mode and don't feel secure. It's like, what do you want from me? You know? I was actually about to say it before you said. It's a million percent true, right? Because a woman might date an older man. Why? Well, probably

for security, safety, money. But a man will date a crazy young woman. But you've never known a woman who's like, he's insane, but I want to date him. That doesn't happen. Because men don't need safety from women. We're not looking, that's not what we're looking for in you. We don't know in this conversation. 100%. But like women are looking for safety men. So that's my experience of my own marriage, not just physical safety, but when she feels like I'm attentive to her, she can bring things to me, she doesn't feel like she has to be defensive to me because I'm trying to get something. When she can kind of let a guard down. Got her back. Yeah. No, and she shared that with me and so I received that, that she wanted to feel safer. So I bought

another gun. Oh my gosh. And then, you know, that I knew that that's what her heart just wanted the next question. He's like, I feel safe now, honey, you feel safe? And I'm like, get out of here. This question is for you. Likewise, what does the husband need from his wife outside the bedroom to have a strong desire to pursue her

toward the marital act? That's so funny, because I'm like, I need very little. But anyway, here's the parenthesis, parenthetical comment in a deep way, not just the physicality of it. Respect. I think that's the biggest one for the man.

If I feel disrespected, put down, you know, belittled, it makes a guy just shut down and close off completely to her, to want to pursue her, because I just don't feel, and for women, I think the misread of that is, oh, it's ego, it's pride, oh, he just wants me to stroke his ego, when in reality, you know, God, you know, when the scriptures are talking, you know, husbands love your wives, wives respect your husbands. You know, why does Paul say that that way? Because there's something, I think, to the male nature of the, the ontological way that God is structured, marriage and the family, that he should be the head of the family and respected as such.

And you say that nowadays, and it's like this toxic masculinity, cringy, misogynistic, you know, respect me, I'm the head kind of thing. But it's like, no, the head should be setting the pace for self-giving love. And if I'm doing my part, it's easier for her to do hers, but it's a heck of a lot easier for me to do my part if she is doing hers. And if she is respecting me in front of me and behind me and around the kids, it's going to want to make me uphold her. as well. And so I would say if there's one thing the woman could do for the man is to realize,

yeah, like you said, I don't feel this huge need for safety. Like I've never walked through a parking garage and never felt safe. I've never gone to a gas station bathroom. I can't use that one. It's too icky. Like, and I just feel fine in the world. I can go in the woods and have a gun. I'm just happy as can be. So I don't feel a need for safety. And she might not as much feel a need for respect. I'm sure they do because it's naturally want to be respected. But I think if we can recognize each other's core needs instead of writing them off, I think they go a long way to build some more intimacy. I think the thing is this whole submission thing and being under a man and it's like that you get this reaction of like, uh, and anger and, you know, but at the end of the day, well, why do you have that

reaction? I know why I used to have that reaction because I was deeply wounded and hurt and sexually abused by men. And I, but the last thing I was going to be is under another man, you know, like that triggered a really adverse response even though it was right ordered it's still it wasn't within me right ordered right so it's like you have to take the time to like why am i having that reaction why is it hard for me to submit to my how like what is going on like to explore that a little bit like have a sobering look at yourself and why you're having that kind of reaction because it's going to say a lot about yourself and a lot of the times they don't want to look at themselves they want to just ignore it shove it put some lipstick on it and keep going

But at the end of the day, eventually, if you don't want to deal with it today, you may not deal with it tomorrow, but you are going to deal with it. And it's going to come out on your family. It's going to come out on your kids, your husband. It's going to just slowly erupt on them in an unhealthy way. So even though it's a little like submissive thing, it's not so little. We have been propagandized by feminism since we were born. I mean, I thought of this funny example the other day. Remember Dana Scully from the X-Files?

I was fascinated with her. She was the most beautiful woman I'd ever met up until the age of 16. Anyway, she would wear shoulder pads, which I guess what women did in the 80s, which says everything about feminism, right? So the Christian looks at woman and her vulnerability and sees her as she is and as she ought to be. A sort of modernism or atheism looks at woman

and says we need to make up for her lack, right? She needs to be like a man. So how do we make her like a man? Yeah. But it's funny, I see this disillusionment of women all over the place say, like, oh my gosh, why did I want to scrape plaque off of strangers' teeth instead of like raising a family

and taking care of my husband. What the hell is wrong with me? What kind of influence was I under? Yeah. No, it's a real lie of the devil that women need to become masculinized in order to become more powerful. I remember talking to Alice von Hildebrand once,

and she said, yes, she said, men have power in what they do, but she said women have power in who they are. I think women have really surrendered that inheritance that's given to the power that they have to shape entire civilizations because they bought hook line sinker that in order to have power you've got to be somehow more manly and that shows in fashion

relationships and you name it i i have to say quickly is that stepping into the gifts that god has created me for i am so much more like these ebbs and flows with my husband and my kids and even my relationship with god it just flows so much easier it's not so much work like it used to be and difficult because it was disordered right and so it's like i'm trying to go on on square wheels here, you know. But when I made it right ordered, everything started flowing so much more beautifully in that surrender.

And then my gifts can even flourish and grow because it's where it needed to be. It wasn't right ordered. So there's something to be said about that. It's scary and hard that that may have been to put myself under my husband or just in that role. It was beautiful.

The growth I experienced and I was fighting it for so long. And then finally when I surrendered, it's just like, okay, now we can go. Now I can step into the gifts that God gave me and that I was created for even more fully. And he's helping move with them as well. Like we're helping each other in our gifts and we complement each other in our gifts

versus fighting each other with what we thought we deserved or needed or wanted. You know, it's just really that surrender, as scary as it is, it's so powerful. Yeah, good. Okay. here's a very beautiful question this lady says we've been married for 30 years most of our marriage has been very difficult we were married in the catholic church my husband wasn't catholic but

completed r cia after two years of marriage mostly because that's what i wanted he's never tried to learn more about the faith just goes through the motions we've never been good at communication oh we live almost as roommates god love you for being so honest and even have separate bank accounts my husband started his own account about 10 years ago I had a strong spiritual conversion to the faith about 11 years ago I never left the church but definitely didn't know my faith and took it for granted how can I help my husband deepen his relationship with God

I'm not even sure he really believes any of it but puts on a good front to look good for his side of the family he was not an involved father and our three adult children suffer because of that Wow. Well, we have that passage in the scripture that the unbelieving husband is made holy by the believing wife. And so sometimes you think, God, why are we so unevenly yoked here? And I think sometimes when I talk to parents and maybe they've got a kid who's gone off the deep end and living a crazy life or doing who knows what, I say, well, don't think that it's your fault that your kid has gone gone off the deep end and start beating yourself up. God has entrusted that child to you because he knew that you were the one who had never give up an interceding for that child. And so in the case of a marriage, I would say that God has entrusted to this believing wife, a husband who's lukewarm, for the sake of his salvation. And so for her to offer up to God as a sacrifice, her discontent with his level of spirituality

is a prayer. And she could think of herself as that little red candle next to the tabernacle that's just burning itself out until there's nothing left. And that his salvation can come through her, even if she doesn't get to see the fruit of it in her own life to not think, if I do this Novena and I do this, then he's going to convert and I'm going to have this godly man, that might not happen. I mean, God willing, and we could ask the listeners to please join us in prayer for this couple right now. And maybe these graces can break through sooner rather than later. But take the long game. This might not be a sprint. I wish we could give you a strategy of like, you know, fast, definitely fast. Pray. There's even a website. Was it prayers from nuns.com.

I think it is. You can type your prayer petition and go out to all these nuns, get religious sisters praying for him. But in the end, I want you to realize that your suffering heart is the most powerful prayer for his sanctification. And that Jesus Christ didn't save anybody in his preaching in the sermon in the mouth. He saved us all on the cross. And so, and likewise, John Paul II said, when we suffer with Christ, we become powerful just like Jesus Christ crucified is powerful. And so I would just say, don't forget the power of your own redemptive suffering and just keep offering that up for the husband, being the wife that you think God is calling you to be. And I think you'll, if you don't get to express the intimacy and communion of love that you've always ached for in this life,

if you stay on that cross for love of him, God will reward you with that closeness in the life to come that's going to last forever. And so just persevere, have faith, and nowhere praying for you as well. yeah i would i would also just add to that so this may be hard for some to hear but sometimes your spouse is distant because jesus is trying to pursue a relation deeper relationship with you and sometimes the spouse almost can hinder that a little bit like jesus really wants to go deeper with you and sometimes you go to your spouse and you're focused on what you're this and that but sometimes he brings you to rock bottom so you can actually write order your relationship with him and him is the foundation in the marriage to build it back up and I don't know if that is making

sense to some people but it's a real thing because I think it's not just you to just three of you like you're married and this is a covenant with God and so if something isn't right he knows that that hurts his heart as well and he wants to write what's going on and help you and give you the grace to like keep going because he knows it's difficult at the same time you have to make sure you're right ordered with him in the process of that. And so to go to him in adoration. And I know I keep pushing like adoration and spiritualizing it, but it is powerful. The Eucharist is the most powerful thing we have on this planet. And all of hell is afraid of it. There's something to be said about that. And just become as eucharistic as you can. Try to go to daily mass. It keeps my

demons in check. Because I can tell when I'm not going to mass and I've pushed confession off because I've gotten too busy, I'm a different person. just straight out i am a different person but when i am staying close to the grace of god the devil cannot follow you into the light and so just the closer you get to jesus the easier your battle will become but don't sit there and complain it's so hard no one's changing nothing's happening but it's like well what are you proactively doing to change things too you know are you going to counseling are you going to prayer are you doing these things and it's not going to be a fix overnight. It's something that happens over time. But as long as you're being proactive and doing

everything that you possibly can in your marriage, God is going to honor that in one way or another. He will. He sees your effort. He knows what you're doing. He knows what you're struggling with. He knows your heart and how much it's hurting in that relationship that in some way he will honor that and he will restore what the locust has eaten over time. And she might want to go on like a marriage counseling thing with him and he might not be open to that but she shouldn't then write off counseling maybe she could go to herself a marriage retreat maybe she could explain it honey can we have a weekend away i heard about this retreat i just want to learn how to love you better so it may so so it can't be i need to get you fixed on this religious retreat thing is i want to learn how to love you better

i want a relationship to be strong because marriage is not something that's either given or not we have a good marriage we have a bad marriage no it's what you make it that's right and obviously some people get dealt the different decked cards than others people do and for some it might come naturally through the natural virtues and temperaments and they just kind of fit like puzzle pieces and for other people it's like this the sandpaper of sanctity constantly rubbing against each other but if the grass is always greener on the other side i mean maybe it's time to water your own grass and so to try to coax him in whatever way whether it's guilt and manipulation my birthday's in may how about instead my birthday we go on a retreat like anything she can do just

get him away from the rut that they've gotten into uh maybe a marriage retreat at retro vi is a great retreat for marriages that are in crisis. Maybe she doesn't think you'd be receptive for that. I don't know. But just see if you can find a good marriage retreat and get away and maybe have a new beginning that way. One thing I want to say and to be careful, if you are in a dry spell in your marriage, you're really struggling, and you're like just dealing with some of the things we've been talking about. And I was talking to a lot of the women that actually have gotten divorced and really struggling and just in this journey we've been on that be careful where you find consolation because if it's in another person or just a friendship helping you through and it's the

opposite sex you need to sort your life out and i'm going to tell the young women and men out there that if you think your blessing is going to come um in somebody else's spouse you are sadly mistaken and you need to step away from the fire that is going to burn and consume you both that just it's it's just not okay. And that is not how God is going to bless you with somebody else's spies. Just be careful of that, right? Because so many people I've talked to

that have these broken marriages gave into that. And it's just like, you know better. And the other part, they know better. It's just like, how desperate are you that you'd go after that? You know, just be careful because it has destroyed so many marriages. And these women I talked to in the heartbreak

and even some men. So I just wanted to put that out there because no one says it. That's great. Well, here's a good question. A priest asks, and then there's a response to the question, which I want to read as well. Can marriage prep be made better for engaged couples,

or is this just the best we got and we shouldn't expect more? All right. Then a response from a woman, who's 20, says, I wonder this often, thank you for asking this question. Oh, okay, this is when she was engaged. As a 20-year-old, I rushed through pre-Kana and married a man while I was still in love with an ex-boyfriend. I know. It was a huge lack of patience and discernment on my part. We were only engaged for three months. On the flip side, now I have left the truly destructive marriage and my divorce and annulment has taken over two years. I wish it was far more difficult to be married in the church. So, yeah.

I mean, you think about it, what was it? I was going to say pre-K. Is that what they call it? Pre-K. What do they call it? That's one name of the marriage prep. Marriage, yeah. Think of like the Legionaries of Christ. What do they have a 12-year seminary process? before we get ordained. I mean, imagine if marriage prep was 12 years and then you'd really know if you're... I mean, obviously, I'm not going to advocate for that type. No one had kids. No one's fertile anymore.

Like a slight glitch in that plan. But no, I mean, it's, there's more work that goes into a driver's license than a marriage license without doubt. And so I had heard once, and I don't know the name of the program. It was an evangelical marriage prep program where they would basically gauge the success of the marriage prep program on how many couples they could get to call off their engagement and they got about a 50% rate of people

to go through the marriage prep and say, we are not ready. We've got to get some stuff our house in order. We're not maybe call it off entirely. We're bump it back a year. And to me, that's one that's putting the finger on a lot of these wounds because I've done these marriage prep. Jason, can you come in and talk about NFP or pornography?

And yeah, sure, I come in. Like eight minutes into the talk, you've got couples crying. You can see the body language. You can see like, holy cow, like this is the pot that needs to get stirred up for this stuff. and it's a it's messy because i mean a lot of these couples are coming into marriage prep because they have to because the pastor says you got to do this course and they go they got to sit through these classes and they haven't darkened the doorway of a church since their first communion and now

here they are expected to get all this formation last minute it's like i said it's kind of triage so so what do we do um well one there are good marriage prep programs out there i mean ascension has i think god's plan for joy filled marriage there's good ones out there like that one priest i heard he he gives the engaged couples, the annulment paperwork. And he goes through all hundred questions with these couples. You guys living together, not going to celebrate your marriage. I'm just not. You guys need to move out, get your crap together, and then we'll go through this thing correctly. And so I think we need priests that are, you know, lovingly firm in that regard, but those who are willing to really do the deep dive. Because when you get ordained a priest, you're going

through mental health stuff, psychological evaluations. You go through all that stuff to get that sacrament, why are we not doing that screening when it comes to this sacrament when these are people going to be raising kids and we give them a weekend or whatever. So I think we need to really up the game when it comes to mental health services as part of the marriage discernment process, tying that into the pre-Kana and not it's like, do we communicate well? It's like, no, like, is there stuff that you've been sweeping under the rug? Because I remember Crystal tell me once, she said, you want to know a secret about women. She said, we're great at stuffing our stuff the things happen and we just stuff our stuff we put our makeup on our hair looks great outside

it's all put together because we're so afraid if we start crying then we're never going to stop crying so we numb ourselves with false consolations eating disorders and dieting pills and this and that and that to numb the wound that isn't being healed and that's why she does the women made new stuff of just like you can face it you can own it and heal it and so i would say bump up the mental health stuff you know bump up formation for men and spiritual leadership in your future marriages you know to me those be a couple of preliminary steps. Do you see anyone doing this better than others? Are there any dioceses or churches that you think, or they're at least doing this better? I've seen some in passing where I'll hear things, but I can't name dioceses by name and say, oh, this diocese is

knocking it out of the park, and this is a dumpster fire over here. No, it's good. You really handle it. This man says, after all the emotions and feelings from the wedding, the couple is living together for hopefully the first time. This can be a somewhat challenging process due to how balancing housework, potential newborns, and personal time for hobbies or similar activities, there might be habits that the man does, which the woman dislikes, and vice versa. The point being that living with someone brand new might lead to some tension. Might, you think? It's a possibility.

Do you have any tips for couples preparing for marriage for how they can begin to prepare for living together? How about for couples who are already married and might struggle with? the more practical part of their marriage. Yeah, as G.K. Chesterden said, a marriage is a great adventure like going to war. G.K. Chesterden. Did he also say it's a deal to the death?

They both apply here, gentlemen. So in terms of what could be done there, one, I would try to do a nightly check-in, a real intentional nightly check-in of the one that we're learning to do right now is like, I think the first one is like, you appreciate, you say what you appreciate, in the spouse, you know, I appreciate, you know, that you, I saw you do this today or this with

the kids, and I really thought that that was awesome. And then the other one reciprocates. And then you go through, I think it's like six or seven different things. You know, one was appreciate. And then someone's like a point of conflict. It's not like a nuclear option. Like, I want to pick the thing right before that bed. I'm going to blow this thing sky high. No, like, hey, this was kind of hard. And, you know, I want to bring that up. And so it's like letting a little steam out, so to speak, instead of letting the pressure cook until the whole thing blows sky high. And then there's a, and then you're also sharing some like wishes and hopes and dreams. And then what you'd like them to pray for you for.

And so this is a real, I mean, it feels artificial at first. Now let's go through these bullet points at the end of the day. But it's like, okay, it's our training wheels right now. You know, yeah, it's kind of embarrassing. We hadn't figured this out on our own in 20 years. But it would be more embarrassing if we didn't learn from that. Yeah. And then just kept plowing ahead.

Because if we could figure it out, yeah, where it becomes part of our nature to have that check in. instead of going to bed at different times or whatever of just like, no, this is our time. Just like we need to set the family rosary at 8 o'clock, like this is our time to connect with each other. And we need to both to be devoted to it. It's kind of like with finances, I heard one guy say, you know, the wrong way to go about it is at the end of the month, husband or whoever's going through the bills, and he's like, well, why did you buy this? And why did you buy that? And why did you buy that?

And you get some big useless fight. No, no, no. You got a tag team together. What is our shared dream financially as a family? I'd love to retire by this stage. I'd love to get a cabin. I'd love to have pay for the kids for college. And you come up with this mutual shared dream,

and then you create strategies as a team to reach that dream. And so that if someone's in breach of the strategies, you're in breach of what we both agree to as opposed to we're just kind of running off on her own. So I think in the same thing, our goal is this intimate marriage. And so let's have this nightly check-in.

And so, yeah, from the get-go, you're going to realize your incompatibilities. Like marriage isn't about meeting this perfect person with whom you're not incompatible. you know marriage really begins when the incompatibilities become painfully obvious and then you have to learn how to grow up and deal with those so i would say something that that's going to be huge and one that almost sounded like an argument to move in together in the beginning the way he's explaining it but he's trying to do right by the church um it's it's going to be hard like when we first got

married it was kind of this like er er and it's going to be it's meant to be that way because you have to shed your old single selfish ways of just living for yourself and now you have other person than kids and yada yada yada so there is going to be this almost like jerking in the beginning but it's beautiful and you're doing it together and you're growing together and learning what you like and don't like and dislike and getting rid of starting i know my anyway i won't say that i won't either so i don't know you do no no i want to say it no no i'll do small so what we're going to do but one thing if you can early in marriage and this is something every everybody should do that's even engaged or just start now.

Guard your marriage in the very beginning. And that's one thing we did not know. And I didn't even think like, you know, you go into it as babies of just like everything that comes and wants to kind of get in between you to. You need to pray. You need to discern if it's a new job, if it's a new hobby, if it's a new friend, if it's a new whatever and it's consuming time and coming between you because the devil is not going to come and say, I'm going to, I want you to sin.

And you're going to say, yes, I will sin. you give him your hand. That's not how it works. You give your will over little compromises at a time that cause problems, that cause bigger sins, that cause just like it's over. So guard your marriage with these things and really be in communication with your wife and a husband in full transparency because the devil cannot operate in transparency. He operates in the shadows and the darkness and little whispers and this and that. But if you're being transparent and you're praying, you're bringing everything to the table together and discerning together, the devil kind of has nowhere to go in that. And so to guard yourselves in that. And if you can make that kind of a routine of just

praying about new things and shifts in life, it's going to help you tremendously. And I would also say, give your phone a time limit. There are people that are so addicted, like they're going to bed, not even looking at each other, but they're looking at their phone. Give your phone a time for bed, okay because your family needs it you want to hear my passive aggressive approach to rebuking my wife for being on her phone i would give it a name i'm like what do you why are you talking to gregg i'd call a gregg why is why is gregg you're always holding piss off gregg as i say not the best mature way to do it oh good it's a way but it's a way to get it out but it's it's a problem it's a serious problem in marriage and it's just like you know what

if you can't give your phone a time limit and you're always like uh uh uh i you're I think you're going to really see how addicted and sick that device has become in your own life and attachment. So give it a time limit. And just to circle back, the idea of that nightly check-in. Yeah. Think of it. Could you go over that again?

Because I really liked that. There was like a sort of gratitude. Yeah. Something like, maybe not criticism. That might not be a helpful word, but something like that. I know I'm missing one or two in there. Maybe you can help me. But the first one was appreciation, what I appreciate about you today.

then there was one other one I forget what it was and the next one was just a point of conflict of just like you know kind of got under my skin a little bit today that this happened and not that and the point isn't to go down some big old rabbit hole but just to think of it as like an examination of conscience that you would do before bedtime like a poor examination of conscience or here are the eight places I send today good night lord like that's not a healthy examination of conscience a real examination of conscience is you're realizing the blessings of your day you're realizing you're giving gratitude. It's a check in with God, not simply a check, check, check. These are the seven commandments I screwed up on good night. Like, that's not how to fall asleep. And so in the

same respect, this isn't a time to go through the laundry list of all the problems, but it's a time to bring it to the attention of the other so they can receive it and hear that and share a little bit back as well. Yeah. But then there was the sharing of wishes, hopes, and dreams, and then prayer intentions that you could give to each other before bed. And it's like you're not surfacy either. That's the beauty of it. It's just like, because it's easy to stay surfacy with your spouse, but it almost like is this, it's short, but it's like deep and it's

gradual and it keeps it from getting turbulent down the road. I would encourage people who practice this not to feel the pressure to be creative. I think this is one of the reasons we find praying with our spouse is difficult because we feel like I'm not good at this.

I don't even know what this is for. This is something Dr. Bob Schutz kind of recommends for people to pray. It's similar. My wife and I have done it, not consistently, but often, where Lord, I thank you for Cameron, and then I say something I'm grateful for and God bless her, but sometimes it's the same thing, and that's okay. Like, if you start feeling the pressure, I'm going to say something super creative that she did, that I appreciate it. I know people are probably listening to what is the list. I have the list on my phone. Can I just grab it right over here? This list is

is Dr. Bob's list. This is a Dr. Bob's list. Like, we got this from Dr. Bob's. It's a list about you or about what he appreciates about you? What is the list? No, the list is what we do. This is what we do it's it's and he's getting it because there's like some very specific but i'm going to shock my wife with something okay it's going to be like what are you doing i'm uncomfortable like what is happening so so this is kind of the it's called the daily temperature reading it sounds like nfp but it's not um so uh so the first thing is appreciations and you kind of go back i do mine she does hers now the second one is kind of new information it's like oh yeah i forgot to tell you blah blah blah yeah this is happening with the kids with work with whatever here's just a new piece of information

So it's kind of keeping you connected in that regard, because I think life can kind of go on. I don't even know you were doing this. I love it. I was like, oh, by the way, someone says it's coming over tomorrow. I was like, wait, what? The third one is puzzles or you're just something

that you're kind of sitting on, stuck on, can't quite figure out. Like, hey, you know, Chris Lanck, I'm trying to figure out this thing for the ministry and I'm just kind of stuck there. The second one is complaints with a request for change. Did you give me an example, or would that be too intimate to ask you?

Oh, let's see, complaint with request for change. that either of you gave to the other. Maybe my tone, like how I talk to him or like, I don't know. I haven't brought that up, but you might as well. Yeah, he hasn't brought up, but I know. Let's do it now. I'd like to complain about, I'd like to submit a complaint to management here. But it might be like, yeah, you know, it really bothered me.

Like when we had that little conflict going on with the kid, you know, it kind of seemed like you were taking the kid's side against me. And it kind of made me feel like, you know, my authority would kind of be an undermined. if you disagreed. I really would appreciate it if we had talked about that privately as opposed to making it feel. So that would be a kind of an example there. And so again, you're not trying to go nuclear here. This is just a time to... He's like, let me see. This is good. So after complaints with a request for change comes apologies. You know, like I'm sorry, Crystal, that you don't realize how wonderful that I am. You know, kind of things like that just from the heart. But yeah, you're like, you're just

issuing a sincere apology, you know, maybe for that particular thing they just brought or maybe for something else. Then the next one is prayer requests, wishes, hopes, and dreams. And so the idea is, you need to get through it all in five minutes. You should it take long, right? That's the thing. You need to almost set a five minute timer for this. Yeah, yeah. Because one, that motivates the man to do it. Because it's not like, okay, every night is going to do this. Like, terminably long discussion. Can I just hear out 18 hours of complaints you might have with my spousal love? So the idea is, it's got to be five minutes. Love it. You know, which is only given you like 30 seconds of pop

going through this thing. It can't be like forever, it's like, you know. You know, and granted, they often go over five minutes, but if the man has in his mind, our goal. You also don't know for the pressure that this has got to be super intense and creative. It's like rapid fire almost. Now, I know you might, you say it'll be really great

if you could sit and look at each other. My wife and I love going on walks around our neighborhood and it's actually a great way for the two of us to kind of get away from the kids who we love, but, you know, they're in the way if we want to talk about things. And I really think that walking side by side that is a great way to process some things as well.

You don't feel the pressure of having to sit down and look each other in the eye. Well, what's interesting, I heard that men typically bond shoulder to shoulder. We're out in the woods hunting together doing this. It's like we're bonding shoulder to shoulder. Women, it's typically, let's sit at the coffee shop and let's talk, like face to face.

And so when she and I had to do like little exercise where you have to kind of get on the same level and they kind of have you like, okay, sit back to back and talk. And it's like, okay, this is why are we even doing this? And the next one's like, sit, well, one person's this way and the other person that way. and it's like okay now sit and get on the one stand up and one sit on the floor and talk down to the person and you feel just like okay this is we just move on to this thing and at the end it's like okay let's sit down

eye to eye level level and let's talk it's like oh this is this is different because so often it's like i'm in the kitchen she's in the kitchen we're talking about this the kids go like but just to be so intentional that you're at the same level looking in the person's eyes and talking about stuff that matters all right maybe i'll give that sure maybe there was a cop out but i just said it is a cop out No, go on their walks, do that. Yeah, do that. It's not either or it's both hands. You look, there's something about it.

There really is, it's beautiful. It's part of our retreat. It's an intimate thing. Could you text me that? No, this is private information. Oh, yeah, I'll set it to you. We can throw it up there. Can we all just say, we love you, Dr. Bob?

I hope you're listening. We all just love you. So, yeah, we got this. This is part of a connected retreat that they do. Yeah, that we were doing. So they've got like healing a little person. And then the one we did was more of a private retreat with some of their unveiled.

stuff i think he was going to be devoted was the book um but this one is off their connected kind of marriage they have podcasts and everything i mean you really can just dive in if you really want to do this and even if the other spouse is not willing you still should um because you're learning and discovering different tips and things that can help you with the process of working with your husband if they're or wife if they're cooperative or not yeah we can put these bullets in the show notes so somebody could easily just you're going to have to remind them because i will have all the best intentions that I will not know him to know any yeah get god oh god bless my only man all right um this individual says what about advice for a catholic married couple who would love to have

children but can't seem to be able to entered into marriage fully accepting and loving the catholic teaching on relationships marriage and children and fully intending to accept children from god but a few years in just don't seem to have been able to conceive even medically options can seem to be limited for investigating and or trying to help the situation, as don't want to compromise on our beliefs and be faithful to God. Not a difficult marriage, as such, as both love each other very much, still trusting God and have hoped that it will happen, but it can be a trial. The first thing I would recommend is do check out Dr. Thomas's Hilder's work at NAPRO Technology. It's a kind of a shortened form of natural procreative technology. So N-A-P-R-O-Technology.com

is one of their websites. Pope Paul of the Sixth Institute is part of that. And so we went to them, and they had stacks of photo albums in his waiting room of babies who were born to couples who were told that they could not have children who had tried IVF, tried in, you know, artificial insemination,

everything, nothing even worked. Then they went to him and he actually healed it. He said, because women's health and medicine has made such little progress in the last 50 years since the pill was invented because it's just lazy gynecology. He just throw, he got bad cramps, go on the pill,

he got a bad hair, throw on the pill. where he's actually getting to the root of, okay, why is the progesterone level not where it should be? And how do we work on that? How do we chart your cycle? So step one, go check out Dr. Thomas Hildgers. I think he may have been retired, but he's now trained physicians globally on how to carry on that work. So NAPR technology, step one. Step two, I had a friend in college who wanted nothing more than have a big Catholic family. They got married. No kids. And they tried and tried and tried and everything ethically possibly and just wasn't happening. And so they

said, well, maybe God's calling us to do adoption or foster parenting. And they kind of discerned in the director of foster parenting. Now, with foster parenting, you could have that child for life. You could have that child for the afternoon. Like, you just don't know, depending on how it works out. And over the course of many years, they ended up taking in 50 foster kids. You know, sometimes three at a time or four, one, whatever. And after that little season had ended, there was a time where they didn't have any kids in the family. And they thought, well, you know, maybe we just need to take a little break, just a little breather. And you know what happened is they got pregnant and then they got pregnant again again again again they're like five or six

like consecutive full term healthy pregnancies after like a decade of infertility in their marriage and so God's ways are beyond our ways but you know perhaps God is inviting you to consider the option of adoption or foster parenting which is something like no it's not even on my radar take it to prayer you know see what God puts there because God might be calling you to that form of ministry and then fertility might be gift later on down the road you never know so anything. Hey, could you tell us two things, because people are listening to you answer questions and you're very good at it. You have a podcast where you do this. How do people find it? What's it cool? That's the first thing. Yep. So Crystal and I have decided to launch, because I've been doing

the Lust is Boring podcast on my own for years, you know, I interview all these people and all kinds of stuff related to dating marriage, human sexuality. And so now Crystal and I are like, hey, let's just tag team and let's just take people's questions live like this, not only on marriage, relationships, modesty, gender, same-sex attractions, pornography, addictions, all this stuff. And so she and I have just started a couple weeks ago, Josiah, you know, had been working with Pines for the longest time. He took over our YouTube channel and he started looking at the algorithm and he's like, do you guys know you've been blacklisted? Like a shadow band. He said, you guys have been shadow band. I can see it here that you got, you know, 40,000 subscribers or

whatever. Then when we post a video, YouTube will only show to a couple of hundred. Even the people searching for you guys can't find them. And so it's really interesting to find that we had been shadow banned. And so we're right now building a a new set to do all these recordings. We're discerning, do we call the channel something new? But if you go to chastity.com, which is our main website, and you just click on the podcast, it'll take you to where we, whatever we decide to rebrand this thing. Right now, we're just praying, do we rebrand? Do we come up with a new name? But we do live call in Q&As every single week. And we'll just take whatever calls come in on anything having to do with life, love,

everything in between, and we just answer the questions live for an hour. And so we've been kind of piloting it over the summer of just seeing how it would work out. We've been doing arts kind of separate things for a while, right? But then coming together, it's completely different, but it's so beautiful and just so easy. And it's just like a whole new chapter right now that God is doing. But sometimes it does take you away to build you up stronger. But then when you come back, it's like you're just, just this beautiful dance, right?

As I said in the car, I know the show is going to be dynamite because y'all have put in. I mean, how long have you been talking about this stuff? Like 26 years? 26 years. Wow. So I'm sure there are questions you've never been asked before, but I'm sure they're rare. So I'm glad you're doing that. And then also this book, A Meditation on Givenness by St. John Paul II.

Yeah. What is it? That was a real gift. St. John Paul II. St. John Paul II wrote that in 1994 during the year of the family after publishing his letter to families. But then he never published it. And nobody knows why. And then he died in 2005.

In 2006, it came out in Italian online. In 2011, it was translated into English, but the only place you could find it is, like, page 871 of, like, the online journal, Camunio, a theological journal. But unless you're really living in theological academia circles, you're unlikely to have come across this. And, you know, I came across this, and I read it.

And it's brief. It's like 3,000 words. And I said, like, this is one of those beautiful things I think the Holy Father has ever written. that synthesizes his teaching on human love, the dignity of womanhood, theology, the body, the gift of self, vocation, creation, the wilderness. I'm like, this thing is gold. I'm pumped to read it.

And I decided, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to buy hundreds of these things. And I'm going to give them away to all the young adults that come on our hikes. And we're going to find the most beautiful scenic outlook we can at the top of the Alps or overlook in the ocean. I'm going to pass out the books and we're all going to read it together. So I got out of line. I started Googling, okay, where can I buy it?

And you can't buy them. Like they're not in print. I'm like, I got to be missing something. So I reached out to Camunio, the publisher of the English translation, and I said, I can't find this anywhere in print. May I be so bold as to ask, could we have the rights to have a license to print this thing? And they said, well, let me look into it. And they emailed us back and they said, it's yours.

And I couldn't believe it. I'm like, they're giving us this never before printed, basically, book of St. John Paul the second. And I said, man, this is such a gift. I said, why do we go just full send? Who should write the introduction? I'm like, how about Cardinal Jeevish, the Pope's best friend and personal secretary?

So I reached out to Cardinal Jeevish, and he blessed us, and he wrote the introduction to the whole thing. And so there are, it's a meditation, so it's not meant to be read like a book, just page after page. You chew on it, you ruminate on it. I passed them out to some young adults

on one of our hikes, and I said, take your time, like a nectar out of a flower, just take it, draw it, and if something hits you, sit on it for a while. And we gave them like almost an hour to read it. And then I asked, one of the young adults afterwards. I'm like, hey, did you get a chance to finish it? And she said, I didn't get past page two, that there were so many spots that she just wanted to stop and simmer over.

And two of the spots in particular that I love, one in there, he's talking about creation. And he said that, like, I just read what he says here. This is the first one. I mean, he says so many, every time I probably read it 15 times. But he said, God in creating, revealed his glory and gave the whole richness of the created world to man. And you give it to man for man to rejoice and to rest in it. God gave the world to man for him to find God in it. And so also to find himself. When I chewed on that, what hit me is like, I've always kind of thought of, yeah, I know God gave us creation. You know, but there's the ducks and the birds and the geese and whatever. And then there's man. And we're all kind of in the, you kind of get the feel that you're almost like

a speck in the cosmos. And what John Paul is saying, like, no, no, no, no, everything. from the smiles wildflower to the most gorgeous sunset to an African line like everything was created for man specifically for man so that you could find yourself and that you would find me in this so every blade of grass everything from the vastness of the cosmos was only created for man and for some of it it sounds arrogant and so anthropocentric like everything is about me well it is because there's no animal that can see the beauty of a sunset. There's nothing. No one can be drawn into contemplation other than man.

And so it just reshaped the whole way. Like I look at these sunsets of like, that's for me. Like that wildflowers, for me, everything's for me. So I could discover him in it and I discover myself. And so it's the idea of creation as a gift that you were created to be a gift for Cameron, for your audience. And that's in that giving, we find ourselves. And then just one other passage, if I could just go and do real quick, what he says here

He's kind of looking at Cain and Abel when he's talking about like, hey, you know, am I my brother's keeper? You know, and he's talking to guys and in respect to women. And he calls out the men and he said, yeah, you actually are. He says, he said, yes, you are a guardian. You are the guardian of holiness, guardian of man's dignity in every woman and in every man. You men are the keeper of the holiness of her body. It is to ever remain an object of your respect. and if it is, if her body remains an object of your respect always,

then you can rejoice in the beauty with which God has endowed her from the beginning and she will rejoice in you. She will then feel safe under her brother's gaze and will rejoice in the gift her womanhood was created to be. You could spend a month on that of just like, yeah, guys, you can rejoice in the beauty of womanhood if she's an object of your respect. And then, you know what she's going to do? She's going to rejoice in you.

Not only did you overcome your porn addiction, she can rejoice in the way that you look at her because she's safe under her brother's gaze. I remember meeting a high school girl. Last assembly I did of the year, she came to me and I couldn't tell if she was male or female because she was presenting as non-binary. And she started crying and laughing hysterically

at the same time and just poured it all out how a guy had done very bad things to her and she was a little girl. So she transitioned to a male identity. And then a guy did worse things to her presenting as a male. And then she retreated from that and she's living in this non-binary state, concluding it's safe if I'm asexual in this world.

I'm not even going to reveal my sexual identity, and there's going to be shelter in that. And what John Paul is saying is that she aches to be safe under the gaze of her brother's eyes. And so it's just a beautiful meditation on human love, vocation, creation for everybody. So it's just a real gift that we were given the rights to print it. And so we're just making it available in bulk

and would love people to read it as marriage. prep or just a holy hour. And so you can get it at chastity.com. Final question for the day. This has been wonderful. Thank you. This individual, a woman, says, my husband seems to think that a lack of arguing

means our marriage is doing well. In reality, I feel like I've given up even trying to address anything even remotely difficult for fear that it would just make things worse. So I just keep quiet. I believe that healthy conflict is actually a sign of strength in a relationship

and can lead to deeper intimacy. he grew up in a very conflict avoidant home and seems allergic to any sort of debate, disagreement, or heaven forbid, real argument. Can you relate to this at all? No, they can't. They can't. They can just wrap up the show there.

What advice would you give to me or him to help us embrace the uncomfortable or hard times of engaging in conflict in order to hopefully achieve real intimacy and not just false harmony that comes with avoidance? Good stuff. What would you recommend to the wife? I'm going to start ruminating over what I would tell the husband.

to the wife with that well they obviously need counseling there's something serious going on there right but not to be afraid to approach him with the hard things and just kind of almost pacifying him with keeping things just at peace because there is no peace that's not peaceful you know and just kind of cold war yeah it's it's not and you don't feel loved you don't feel heard you don't feel understood and then over time it builds that resentment that's just going to like erupt at some point and it's just an unhealthy way to deal with anything but they need she need if he won't go to counseling she definitely needs it and I know we keep saying the same thing over and over but it's a real thing or look into dr. Bob shoots and everything that he has or just start listening to his

podcast and even just through that alone you are going to get tips and tools and things because that's not healthy for her on any level just like tiptoeing and walking on eggshells to make sure she doesn't cause any problems it's like that's not a life you know um but i would say start listening to that and get a spiritual director as well and just stay close to the sacraments and confession and just get that wisdom that god will give you that grace because he's going to lead and guide you just stay just stay faithful to what god is asking just stay the course so many people just veer off trying to do the next best thing or trying to do this or trying to do that when and i keep saying that god is will lead you god will guide you but just be

obedient to what he's asking you to do. Because at the end of the day in all of this, you want to stand before God, at least I do, and just be able to be there in front of him in his throne and say, I did everything you asked me to do. Like, I fulfilled the mission that you gave me. And part of that mission is loving Jason in difficult moments, in surrendering my own will and what I want and my desires in our marriage that may be distorted or whatever it is, It's just, it's that just daily surrender to the will of God in our lives and what he's asking of us. And maybe it's easier and more passive to just like tiptoe on his like not wanting to cause problems.

But at the same time, you're creating more deep down within yourself and in your marriage. So is it worth it? You know, you have to like pick your poison here, you know. What I would throw out there, one, she may want to take a look at how am I approaching my husband? am I coming at him or I coming to him because perhaps she comes off as more abrasive to him and she thinks, well, we're just discussing this hot topic whereas he feels like, yeah, every time I feel like you're coming,

you're just firing guns at me. And I just want to get out of there. I'm going to freeze. I'm going to flee. I'm on whatever. I don't want to deal with this. And so perhaps she's coming at it, though, from a very balanced perspective.

And she's not going after him, you know, throwing the kitchen sink and all this. She's trying to present a serious problem in marriage and he just doesn't want to face it. when you try to have a difficult conversation with a spouse, it's almost a little bit like parenting that if I want to have a hard conversation with a kid or I want to discipline them for something,

it's almost like I'm taking a withdrawal out of that relational bank account. And if I haven't made enough deposits into that account, it's going to, you know, you're going to be in the red and, you know, you're going to incur overdraft fees, so to speak, in that relationship. It's just like, no, you can't take out this much. And so that's what I would say is, okay, let's try to focus,

instead of the withdrawal, how do I get him to enter into these tough things? Maybe I need to make some more deposits in the sense of like, let's go get a weekend away from the kits and let's just get a cute place up in the mountains. Let's hang out and talk about non-stressful stuff. Like, let's just get more connected to what she's doing and doing that are like, oh, you want to go white tail hunting with the buddies, have a great weekend, whatever. Like she's trying to make a deposit into that account because the time's going to come where she needs to be able to get a withdrawal, but just make sure there's enough in the bank there.

But yeah, there could be, she might be like, look, I've done that, and I've loved him, and I've been physically present to him, and I'm doing all this stuff, but he just doesn't want to go to these places. If he won't accompany you on a retreat or if you want to accompany you to get counseling, as we've said numerous times already, go on your own to learn the skills that you might need to hopefully break through to the guy, because it is a false piece, and he knows it. There's a very good difference. She's going to shift things just going and healing herself, no matter what, it's going to shift things.

It just will. It has to. And I had, I was kind of in a mix between. them that I was the one not wanting to present my issues to crystallina because I felt it wasn't going to be received well and it is going to create conflict and it's my job to keep whatever semblance of peace we can have in this family for the sake of the kids and it's just like this is just going to stir up the pot we don't need to do it but I had to break through that of just like yeah I'm going to create conflict not an antagonistic or sarcastic or demeaning way but I'm going to

bring this to the surface because like this is an issue that's between us and we're going to disagree, and you might not want to be with me physically or emotionally or whatever for a week or two or whatever. And I'm just going to have to take the medicine and want to plow through, but I think by me being willing to do that, I was able to earn the respect from her that I wasn't getting by avoiding these conflicts. And it was a rough patch to get there, but it needed to happen. And so I think in the same respect, she's got to be willing to put up with some rough seas, so to speak, to arrive at the destination that they're trying to sail to together. And do that with the guidance of a counselor.

Don't think, oh, I'm going to pull my bootstraps up and I'm going to just tell her and she's going to deal with it and it's going to get better and I'm going to come at her with this. Like, no, you actually need guidance in that because your wife will just shut down. And you could present it as a way like, honey, can I talk to you about something that's really been in my heart lately? Yeah. See, that's kind. Like, I can handle that, you know? Like, I'm extending an invitation. She's welcoming me into that vulnerable space.

And now she feels a sense of responsibility to receive it well. instead of like, you know, or really, text me off? You know, so learning the language to open up their hearts. I want to thank you both for being so beautiful and vulnerable and helping so many people, you know, like there's so many people who are in, well, anyway, I won't keep saying nice things about you, but just know that I'm grateful for both of you. And I'm really grateful that you would choose to come on a show like this

and just be honest. We are so in desperate need of honesty. And, you know, honesty that's done prudently and respectfully, and you all are just wonderful examples of that. So I thought what we could do to close this interview is offer one Hail Mary for everybody who will watch this show, who is currently married or single or might one day be married and just entrust everybody to the Blessed Virgin so that she might lead them all to Jesus. And the name of the Father and the Son, the Holy Spirit, I'm in. Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with the blessed art thou amongst women.

And blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for our sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. And I would ask everyone watching, if you would also just, yeah, offer that, offer that Hail Mary. Let's all just pray for each other. We are at war. This is not an episode of sex in the city or this is not an episode of Survivor where we have to outlive our companions. We're in saving private Ryan. Please pray for our marriage too. Like we would ask your listeners prayers because it's not like we're in the clear and we've got this all figured out and the battles behind us.

So the more intercessory power we can have supporting our marriage will take every bit of it. And you know, just show up to your fight on a daily because your decision to fight for your marriage is going to affect generations. Because to give up, that's something other generations or your kids will have to deal with. But to just show up to your fight and just keep on and in God's grace. And he will bless that. Because even if it's messy, you're leaving them with a legacy of love that never gave up. Amen. Thank you.