Pints With Aquinas - Why Are So Many Young Women Becoming Nuns Today? (Sisters of Life) | Ep. 573

Episode Date: April 6, 2026

In this conversation, Matt welcomes Sister Magnificat Rose and Sister Mary Grace of the Sisters of Life, a religious community founded in 1991 by Cardinal O'Connor to protect the sacredness of human life. The sisters share their vocation stories, the transformative encounters they have with strangers simply by wearing the habit, and the profound ministry they offer to women facing crisis pregnancies. The conversation weaves together deeply personal reflections on self-reliance, God's mercy, shame, community life, and what it means to truly see and receive every human person as sacred. Ep. 573 - - - 📚 More About Guests: Sisters of Life: https://sistersoflife.org - - - Today's Sponsors: Cluny Media: Visit https://clunypress.com today and save 15% with code PINTS15 Good Ranchers: Get $25 off your first order and FREE meat for life when you use code PINTS at https://GoodRanchers.com   Charity Mobile: Visit https://charitymobile.com/MATTFRADD to get started. Free Phone offer with code MATTFRADD Shopify: Sign up for your $1-per-month trial and start selling today at https://Shopify.com/pints St. Paul Center: Share your faith with others this Easter Season by joining the Easter Accompaniment Challenge. Sign up and become a member today at https://stpaulcenter.com/pints - - - Become a Daily Wire Member and watch all of our content ad-free: ⁠⁠https://www.dailywire.com/subscribe⁠⁠ 📲 Download the free Daily Wire app today on iPhone, Android, Roku, Apple TV, Samsung, and more. - - - 📕 Get my newest book, Jesus Our Refuge, here: https://a.co/d/bDU0xLb 🍺 Want to Support Pints With Aquinas? 🍺 Get episodes a week early and join exclusive live streams with me! Become an annual supporter at 👉 ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mattfradd.locals.com/support⁠⁠⁠⁠ - - - 💻 Follow Me on Social Media: 📌 Facebook: https://facebook.com/mattfradd 📸 Instagram: https://instagram.com/mattfradd 𝕏 Twitter/X: ⁠⁠⁠https://twitter.com/Pints_W_Aquinas⁠⁠⁠ 🎵 TikTok: ⁠⁠⁠https://tiktok.com/@pintswithaquinas⁠⁠⁠ 📚 PWA Merch – ⁠⁠⁠https://dwplus.shop/MattFraddMerch⁠⁠ 👕 Grab your favorite PWA gear here: https://shop.pintswithaquinas.com - - - Privacy Policy: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.dailywire.com/privacy⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

God is interested in us. He desires union with us, like actually to live our life with us, not for us just to be useful or get something done or achieve great things. It's like actually God, God is so much more wonderful and creative than that. Who are the sisters of life? The traditional vows that all religious would take so poverty, chastity, obedience, and then as sisters of life, we take a fourth vow to protect and enhance the sacredness of human life. Our community exists for you.

Like actually for the sake of every human person, God is life. literally risen up, yes, a community to respond, but a community convicted with what's something that God is convicted about, and that is the sacredness of your life. The most thing that woman needs in that room is to know that someone sees her, sees that she's good, that meaning is still here, that her life matters. And when a woman is convinced to that, suddenly the chaos and the storm, they don't have as much sway in her life anymore. Shame isolates us. It has a grip on us. It says nobody else would ever understand. The evil one tries to get us, you know, to keep that secret. shame loses its power.

Yeah. And the heart can actually begin healing when there's, again, a safe place, a trusted place. Talking to a trusted person about these areas of darkness. A big part of this is to help women who are considering an abortion or who've had an abortion. What does that look like? There's really this attitude, just availability. We're not going anywhere. We're here for you, no matter what you're going through.

Sister Magnificate, Sister Mary Grace. Thank you so much. much for coming on the show. Oh, thanks, Matt. It's such a gift for us. Did you come in last night or today? We did. You know, and I was saying,

Tennessee, I think, is the first airport where I saw three live bands by the time I got my baggage. It was impressive. It was a lot of fun, so it's good to be here. Yeah, and they're not terrible. That's the difference. No, they were awesome. No offense to all the bands playing in every other city in America, but usually I'm not

expecting a great deal. But when I'm in Nashville, I'll sit down at a band setting up, I naturally have this, okay. Oh, my goodness. They're terrific. It's very different. It's so fun and we felt a little bit more normal. We didn't travel with a guitar this time, but usually one of the sisters we travels with brings a guitar,

but this time at their point I was like, my gosh, everybody's walking around with an instrument, a guitar, jimba drums, that's great. Now, I told you this before we went live, that I had beautiful Sister Mary Rachel on, who I love, Dominican sisters of the best, well, second best. And one of those videos was of her explaining what it was like

telling a man in a gas station that it was not, in fact, Halloween. So I wanted to ask you, What is it like walking around in the world dressed so beautifully as you are? It's true. It's wild and it's new every day. You kind of can't predict it. But I think people are surprised when they experience, not just see sisters. Like, I just grew up with them on the camera.

Like it was like Sounded Music, Sister Act. But to see a sister walking to a gas station, it's our worlds collide. Like we kind of become relatable and then conversations you never thought you'd have come. I mean, we literally, we don't get Uber rides, but coming on this podcast, we've had three in the last day, getting to Mass. things. So we've had three phenomenal conversations actually that just allow for conversations that I think our hearts want to have, but we don't always know how to get there. It's like the first guy we get in. I think every Uber driver said, this is the first time I've had two nuns. So we made first time for three Uber drivers. But one gentleman, we just asked him, we're praying

up prayers. We said, is there anything we can pray for? And yeah, one is talking about his friend who's dying of cancer. And then began a whole conversation about suffering and how we can pray for her. And what was the other ones? There were a couple other... Asking for healing and just to know that there could be a better life. Like, wow, this went deep really quick in like two minutes in the car. Oh, what about the last one? Just this morning, this guy said, you know, I met a psychic greeter recently and they were telling me about, you know, these names and these things I never knew. And then the more he talked to you was like, but I feel so strange about it. And

sisters, everything is dark in the world. And then he asked us the question. He's like, do you think the end is coming? And so then we have this like massive conversation in the back of the car and then began to talk him about yeah Christ's light and darkness and how much stronger his truth is and this man that was kind of like he's like all tattooed up and leaning over and at the end he's like wow god bless you thank you um and i was like that was the best time in an Uber ride we've ever had absolutely but really conversations that you wouldn't typically have and i think as being religious there's a real opportunity i think people want to have them absolutely they want to have them and they almost need an excuse to start somewhere well i think a lot of

Catholics feel that they don't want to impose on people or be weird, which is good. You don't want to be weird, right? But you're already weird because of what you're dressed. Like you're beautiful, but you're weird, right? And so I think, you know, they want you to do that. Like, that's what you talk about Jesus and Mary. Like, if not you, who? So do you find that like by the time they've looked at you, it's almost like the wall has been broken down and you can just go ahead and gently talk about our Lord? Absolutely. Once they get over the shock factor that they're sitting there with two nuns. And yeah, then they can, yeah, just ask the deeper questions. It's amazing. Usually they'll sit there for a second. And then it's like the look back in the rear rear. And it's like it always starts with, you know, I got a question. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And what's weird too is I suppose the people that you're getting into Uber's with don't necessarily have the same hangups that maybe our parents did about nuns or at least what society told us the hangups we should have about nuns. Totally. The teachers with the rollers and being angry and, you know, they probably have never met a nun before. Yep, yep. And I think they, and that's where like, I mean, I always find this conversation is awkward and difficult. Like, it's not easy for us, you know, to always have to explain why you're wearing what you're wearing. But oh my gosh, that little act of faith of humility on our end to just like throw a question out there. It's amazing what people respond with. And I think it really reveals to us how much the human heart is aching for God and what and has deeper questions. Like this, the first Uber driver, I remember him saying at one point, he was like, sister, I just was like, can we pray for anything? We're about to pray. I'm wanting prayer. And he said, yeah, he's like, pray, pray for my health. We're like, okay, okay, we'll pray for your health. And then we're like, gosh, how can you go deeper here? But a good thing of health. And then we said, and we'll pray for your health for eternity too.

We want you to, we want health for your soul. And he was like, thank you, sister. He's like, that's what I really want. And I was like, thank you, Jesus. If we just, if we just wore the habit for one of these conversations, it would be worth it all. Do you find, you're very lovely people, so maybe you don't deal with this. But I would think that if I was in a habit, I'd be a lot. more careful not to be impatient in public. Do you ever find in lines or at airports the temptation to be, I don't know, or maybe it's not so much that, but it's the realization that everyone knows what I am and I got to set a good example. I had a moment. It was a couple of years ago and I was going to the grocery store and I was in charge of our kitchen at the time, planning menus and

everything. And it was just a rough morning. I was like Saturday morning and I was like, I need to get in and out quickly. And I was like, okay, so just do the smile and like nod your head. You know, just move quickly with your cart to get through because I was like, everybody loves to stop and talk. And I love that too, but I was like, not today. And so I get, you know, just smiling at everybody, just keep moving through. And I remember noticing this one young girl, like, look at me. And I was like, oh, it felt a little bit of the prompting of the Holy Spirit, but she didn't say anything. I just smiled at her. Then I get to the line, to the checkout line. And it was so long. And I was like, oh, my goodness, I'm going to sit here forever. So I was, I was getting impatient. And then this young girl,

comes up behind me and her shirt says over it like I'm so over it it was kind of like I'm a little over these lines too like and so we just kind of laughed over the long line I said that too she it was on her shirt and I was like you know I like your shirt I'm kind of over these lines too and so we just laughed and then struck up a conversation and turns out this young girl she was like yeah I had my little girl two years ago she was really in a mess and in a lot of difficult situations at that time and she showed me this video of her little girl dancing around in a ballerine outfit and she goes yeah i became pregnant a couple years ago and these sisters helped me down the street and i was like these sisters and i was like i live down the street i was like did they look like me and she goes

yeah you know what come to mention it they did look like you found out that our sisters so i go home and tell the other sisters in my house and they were like we never knew what happened to her like We helped her, and then she had to move, and her situation in life change. But they were like, we've been wondering this whole time as she had her baby. And I was like, she did. She's two now. And so it ended up being this like super providential moment. But I'm just so grateful to the Holy Spirit for, yeah, even in my impatience in the moment,

for not giving up of just being like, okay, now I'm going to accept the fact that I'm in this long line and just the encounters that you can have when you embrace God's will in the moment. Amen. I think it's such a testimony to just the reality of God's presence in our souls. You know, like I'm even thinking too, just thinking of that. I remember lining up for the DMV, which I didn't know about until I came here. I was not the DMV and all the sisters are like, oh, wow, the DMV. Ready pack your snacks.

Like, this is going to be rough day. But I remember waiting in a line there too and being so agitated and frustrated and I lost my point in the line. And I don't remember I was smiling. I was cranking, don't know what. But I was walking out and this woman in a stroller ran into me. And she was like, sisters, you're the reason why I have this. And she's like, I just felt joy when I came in the room. And I was like, well, I know that was not of human origin. Like, that was not just me forcing a smile. There's a deeper joy in the presence of

Jesus in our souls that we can trust will actually move through our moods. And that actually, even if it's a rough day or a difficult day, just even engaging with his presence is powerful. And it goes beyond our efforts, which is a great reminder every now and then. When I was living in Stubinville, my wife got a call. Do you know this story? Stop me at any point. she may have told you that there was a woman who was considering having an abortion and she had a little child and I don't know what happened if she wanted my wife to go visit her or something and so Cameron I mean she's pumped you ever need somebody she's on it you know and so she's sick and she was very sick in Super Bowl but she forgot all about that and just wanted to help this beautiful mum and then I find out

that it's kind of like in a really bad part of Ohio and I'm like well I'm coming with you so okay so we're going together and then she must have called one of your sisters. Do you remember the story? We've heard about it. And the lady's like, and just so you know, the boyfriend is in a gang and into dogfighting. I'm like, oh, great. Well, so I got to go knock on this bloody door and ask if, I don't know what it was. I forget if we were going to like take the baby just for a day or something like that. Long story short, this lovely little girl, we got to kind of have her in our home for quite a while. Wow. And just we loved her so much. And even recently my good wife, like she's been like buying groceries for several of these mothers.

Wow. Yeah, yeah. She's like, you don't mind, do you? Can you imagine if I said yes? No, do it. You know, and it was just so beautiful. And that was all because of the Sisters of Life. Yeah. So here's a good question for those who are unfamiliar with you. What is your charism or who are the Sisters of Life? Where and why were they founded? Mm-hmm. That's great. I know. I feel like we're both going to jump at this. No, I don't. Sure. So we were founded in 1991 by the late Cardinal O'Connor, Archbishop of New York at the time. He passed away in 2000, but really revered bishop here in the States, especially with the pro-life cause. I mean, he just gave his life, yeah, that every human person would know their dignity and their worth.

But he had a profound moment. You know, he was a Navy chaplain for over 20 years. years. And so he never imagined founding a group of religious women. It's so funny, I don't think any bishop does. But he was really convicted when he was on a retreat near the Daco concentration camp in Germany. And while he was there, he was praying near the crematoria oven where so many innocent people lost their lives. And he just, a prayer welled up in his heart of, good God, like, how could human beings do this to other human beings? And, you know, there's Jew, Christian, you know, even non-practicing Christians, you know, who died there.

And man, woman, child. And in that moment, he just really made a firm commitment in his heart that he would do whatever he could to protect human life and that everybody would know their dignity and worth. And over throughout the years, he just prayed with this. And he preached from the pulpit at St. Patrick's Cathedral regularly on the dignity of the human person and even would say, to any pregnant woman out there will help you.

Like, come to our doors if you are pregnant and in need. And so he made a firm commitment of himself. But then one day he was praying with one of the gospel passages where the disciples were trying to cast out a demon and they couldn't. And they couldn't come back to the Lord and we're like, Jesus, like, how come we couldn't cast that demon out? And Jesus said, like, certain kind of demons can only be cast out through prayer and fasting. And at that moment, the cardinal had this inspiration in the heart. heart, which he prayed with over many years, to found a community of religious women who would give the whole of their lives. He saw that there were so many great, there were so many great

movements at the time that were working to protect life and to offer women help. But he realized within the church there wasn't a religious community of women who would give the whole of their lives. And so eventually, when he realized this prompting was indeed from the Holy Spirit, he put an ad in the Catholic New York paper and said, help wanted sisters of life. And so, eventually, And amazingly, women responded. Hang on. So what was he expecting through that? Had he but thereby named the order already?

Not even then. I guess then, yeah, helped one of the sisters of life. But he always was convicted that if it's of the Holy Spirit, it will proceed. So he was like a man of bold trust where he had an inspiration. He prayed about it for years, got advisors, spiritual directors to think about it. But when he moved, he kind of like, yeah, I mean, this ad is just this radical act of faith of like, okay, Lord, if you're calling women, he didn't know anyone interested, never. said it was literally the first article and then women started writing from all over the world.

Predominantly US, but actually... It must have said more than help wanting. It was an article. Yes. There was a little bit. Okay, okay. I thought it was like one of those little ads you take out on the back. No, sorry, it was an article.

Okay, that makes me, sorry, I missed that bit. Okay, so people started writing from all over the world. Of, like, actually, like, affirming this conviction of like, I too feel called to this. I feel the spirit summoning in this. I believe that this is not just, yeah, this is not just a preacher. this is actually a summoning to lay down my life in this way, which is just such a testimony to the Holy Spirit calling, the Holy Spirit continuing to call women to our community,

which is really powerful. Yeah, but I interrupted. Do you want to keep going? No, no, no. I love the story. I know. It is so powerful. Yeah.

And I think it boils down to like our community exists for you. Like actually for the sake of every human person, for like God has literally risen up, yes, a community to respond, but a community convicted with what's something that God is convicted about, and that is the sacredness of your life, your goodness, and not for anything we do or earn or prove or succeed in or achieve, but that your sacredness is at the core of you. The most innate part of you is made in God's image and likeness and how often is our culture neglectful, forgetful of that, or actually telling a whole other narrative that actually doesn't

breathe life. It makes us feel burnt and exhausted and constantly striving for the next big hit, big achievement next stage in life when God, when he looks at us, even before we existed, loved us, still loves us, is choosing us right now to exist. And when we actually experience and know this truth,

we can take a breath. We can be, we can be ourselves. And we see this in our missions, especially when we walk with women in crisis pregnancies. It's not a matter of solving a problem or a quick fix or just helping her out, which we do, spiritually, emotionally, physically, whatever she needs

to make the next step. Really, it's about seeing this woman again and saying, we see you, we believe in you, we're with you. We support you. And when a woman know she's backed up, believed in, seen for who she is, she literally can make steps we could never convince it or take. So it's really remarkable to see how this truth is, it's mind-blowing and it's life-changing. So I am really excited to tell you that I have partnered with Theotokos Rosaries. These are, without a doubt, the most beautiful rosaries I have ever. seen in my life. Theratocos rosary sent me one maybe about a year ago or so, and I remember being absolutely blown away. You probably heard me talking about it. I've sent one to my mom and

dad and uncle. I give them to some of the guests that we have and everyone who receives one is blown away. These are just a total different caliber. And when you think about the kind of money we're willing to spend on a phone, it's like, you know, sure, you can pray a rosary on your fingers or on a string rosary and it would work just the same, obviously. But if you think, you know, sure, you can pray a rosary on a But if you're looking for a beautiful rosary that's more of an also like an heirloom, something that you could have for life, check this out. Go to dailywire.com slash shop and pick up one of these. This is more of the masculine one. This one, they based on St. Peter's Basilica. So it has real stone beads and Italian olive wood. This one is inspired by Notre Dame in Lyon, France. So you might want to, again, pick this up. It'd be a beautiful ordination gift, a gift for those who are getting married, maybe Father's Day, Mother's Day, like, honestly, a beautiful gift. I remember what moved me so much is when I sent this to my, I won't say who, because I don't want to call them out,

but a family member who doesn't actually pray the rosary, they started praying the rosary. And I think it's honestly because it's so beautiful and so sacred looking. So again, go to dailywire.com slash shop to pick one up today. And thank you to Theotokos Rosaries for partnering with us. Yeah, if the human person really is as important as you say they are, as the Christian says they are, then it shows just how evil any strict utilitarian interactions are. I mean, for the, you know, when you treat the person merely as a means of exchange. And I've had to call myself on this lately, speaking of Ubers, getting in the Uber and just being like getting to know the person instead of like putting on my headphones and, I, I'm

I've actually, I'm so pleased to say that the Lord gave me this spirit of excitement to get to know these people, I guess, that I had some really beautiful conversations these last few days. Awesome. That is huge. Yeah, it's been lovely. And it's been such, I felt so honored by it. Wow. But that's new. This is a new thing for me.

Unfortunately. Unfortunately. Like I take so many Ubers doing this stuff that I, I don't know. And then you, I don't know. You don't want to be a bother. But then you're like, but when you're filled with the joy of the Holy Spirit, you just want to talk to people. Absolutely. Well, they're the gift, too.

You realize in the moment, like, sometimes you, or I can fall into the trap of thinking, like, okay, I need to, yeah, just show this person their dignity, their worth, and I'm thinking of what I need to give to them. But I'm like, I think of Jesus's line in John's gospel of they are your gift to me, Father. You know, and that's the truth that it's like we're a gift to one another. And so you might make the first, you know, step of reaching out to the other person and asking how they're doing. And then you realize, as they're sharing, you're like, this. is a blast conversation for me too. It's like in the exchange. So yeah, it's powerful. Yeah. And it creeps into the convent too, you know, like I know we have one hour in our day,

which we call community recreation. Big word basically just means hanging out. And you usually do at the end of the day for an hour. And you know, I know the weeks when we miss that or for, you know, we're at an event or it doesn't happen. I'm like the fact that our, and it's such a protection, actually, to actually have one hour of a day where we look at each other, sit around maybe play board games or whatever, or go for a walk, but you're like, I'm not going to use you. We're not going to work on any other project other than just spending time together. And at first, I remember entering the comment, I was like, what a waste of time. Like, we're sitting in the travel together. We live in the same place. We have three meals together. We don't need any more time. But actually, no, to have these

intentional efforts where it's like, you are worth being with. And it's okay just to be. And to be still and to actually enjoy one another. It literally is like, it saves my day at the end of every day. It gets me out of the rush of the activism. It helps me pray better. And it just like, centers us in the truth that actually God has blessed us with one another, living in the gift, but you have to protect the gift. You have to be intentional about the gift. You have to choose the conversation in the Uber Ride. Like it's a choice today because the culture is shifting in the whole other direction. It's anti-communal. Yes. Anti-culture. Yeah. Yeah. I remember being shocked too. We were at an airport not that long ago. And another sister

and I were walking. We had a little bit before the flight. And we tend to be fast walkers. Like our community is based out in New York City. So we're just like, we got to get from point A to point B and move there quickly. It's the rat race out there. But and I tend to be, yeah, just a fast mover myself too. And so I was walking very quickly. And I was with another sister. And we kind of brushed by, not intentionally brushed by this older gentleman and his wife. And I felt so bad as soon as we passed them. I was like, oh my goodness. Like, why am I walking so fast? And so I just turned around and smiled at the two of them. And then we kept going. But we saw them a few minutes later and he stopped us and I was like oh no he probably was really mad that I just brushed by

him but I was like oh no what he's going to say but he looked at the two of us and he was like so bewildered and he said why did you turn around and smile at us and he was like and then he like paused for a moment and he was like it made an impact and I was so struck in that moment because it was like it was such a simple moment and here I was just feeling bad that I had brushed by them but it was a reminder to me of Wow, like so many people are like thirsting out there. They're starving for just human connection and like you're saying, to be seen, to be noticed. How many sisters of life are there roughly right now? The latest I heard were about around 140, I guess.

Yeah, numbers aren't my genius, but about 140s. Yeah. God is calling women. Yeah. Tell us about that. Yeah, well, it's just exceptional. Like, I mean, every one of our lives is a miracle. And you ask Annie's sister, every sister's vocation story is like, you're like, what?

Like it's just so unique and beautiful and such a sign of God's unique and personal pursuit of every one of us. But it just amazes me every year around August, usually women enter that you hear about another five or six and you're like, where did these women come from? He's calling them from Europe, from South America, from Australia of all places. And America, and it's just every vocation is this reminder that God is alive. And he's calling women to do radical things that we cannot do even if we wield it on our own. You know, that it's actually a divine call. and God is still giving that grace. It's amazing.

So the choice to have sisters who were habited was a fantastic choice, obviously. Why is it that the nuns after the revolutions after the council, all that terrible stuff that took place? Why is it, do you think that they threw them off? And why was it important to reclaim it? It's a good question. It's a mystery when you live it and you see how much God does with the holy habit. But it's just, it's a marvel and a privilege to wear every day, actually.

You're just like, oh, my goodness, there's something being communicated through the habit that is beyond me as well. And, you know, it's a mystery to why it happened. But what I can say is that, like, when our community was formed, I remember Cardinal O'Connor, who was very distinct. And, you know, it was our good Dominican sisters and the religious sisters of mercy that he really called upon. It was like, I got this great idea. I don't really know where it's going. But I feel like God is summoning this. And he brought, you know, these two beautiful communities that.

had lived faithfully their vows and the life for now, I mean, the Dominican for centuries. And he kind of blended us together and said, I want something of a combination of those two. So the Dominicans and the religious sisters of mercy. I see. Yeah. So the blue kind of comes from them a little bit. And we're literally in a Dominican habit with a nod to Blessed Mother in the blue. So really it's like we kind of like stand on the shoulders of these communities that have taught us everything we do and who we are.

And yeah, it's just such a gift. It really is. And I'd say, you know, with all reverence to sisters who were living at that time, like not knowing fully what they were going through, you know, I think there was a desire to seem more like one with the people or to not look so distant from them. You know, I think might have been part of the reasons why they left wearing the habit. But again, a reverence to, you know, it wasn't there during that time. But the habit, is like an eschatological sign. So it's a sign of heaven of what we're made for. And so it's a huge privilege to wear it. And I think very needed. And it's it's amazing just, I mean, all these encounters we're talking about it comes like people see. And we're not looking for that. I mean, I know that I'm, you know, a work in progress myself. So we're not sitting here walking around being like, oh, we're holier than all the rest of you people. It's not why we wear a habit at all. You know, again, it's to point to eternal realities. But wearing the habit,

allows people to come up. This isn't about us. It's about Jesus. It's about Jesus and his church and about people having a safe place to go where they can be received. It's like we're spiritual mothers. And when people see us, once they get over again, the shock factor can't tell you how many conversations each of us has probably had where people come up within a minute. They're sharing their prayer requests. They're sharing really difficult things they've gone through in the life because they're longing for someone to be able to receive this part of their heart and to give them an encouragement to hope. And I remember in formation, we would travel around the U.S. and visit a lot of these communities that had like hundreds of sisters, even thousands at different times.

And I remember thinking, looking in these huge convents that weren't as full as they used to be, I remember thinking, because they were faithful, I can be today. You know, like we have no idea the generations and the sufferings and the difficulties of what sisters went through before us. But I know as an Australian, God called me to receive faith on the soil. You know, and it's just been a marvel to visit those communities, whether they be full or lacking at this point, and just praise and thank God for the fidelity to their vows. You know, we even went to a community in California recently, and one sister was there, and she wasn't wearing a habit for a reason, I don't know. But I asked her, I was like, oh, sister, how long have you been a sister?

And she said, I've been wedded to Jesus Christ for 78 years now. And I was like, oh, my goodness. And she remembers her identity as bride, even beyond externals in her heart. she knows she belongs to Jesus. And I was like, Lord, may I be that faithful? Please God, at 93 years old. I love the generosity that y'all are showing towards these older women and who the heck knows what these beautiful women went through. It's so healthy and so important. You know, I'm thinking, I'm making it kind of personal to me. And, you know, it's easy for people to kind of look at their parents and to complain perhaps or perhaps, unfortunately, their parents got a divorce or something

like that and but to still be having to talk with great affection for them, huh? Like absolutely. Yeah. We're not in their shoes. Like you're, we all didn't, if we were all going through the 60s and 70s right now and we're trying to live the Catholic faith, who knows where we would have ended up with. That's exactly. I'm like, I've grown up with youth conferences, you know, and Sikhs and Steaks and Steubenville

conferences and all these opportunities to learn and grow in the faith. And so it is. It just, it's an exercise and gratitude. gratitude for the greases and like sisters saying for those who have gone before you and paved the way like grease builds upon grace and yes one yes builds upon the next yes so yeah cool and if someone told you will go in order when you were 15 that you'll one day be a nun what would you have suppose well they might just seem very weird who were you and why are you talking to me absolutely but suppose they know I have a gift and I can see into the future like how would you have responded to this idea of you would one day be... I think I would have first said, well, I cannot sing and I cannot dance. So there goes that option.

You know, Matt, growing up in Sydney, I didn't even know religious sisters existed. Honestly, so it wasn't like growing up, I didn't like close the door. I didn't think it was weird. I didn't even know it was an option. Like, the women even were doing that anymore. I didn't even...

And I definitely didn't think it would be attractive or something that I would ever want, you know? So at 15, definitely it would have been like, sorry, what land do you come from? But for me, it... Yeah, I think that would have been my answer. But for me, it wasn't until I turned 18 and I witnessed religious life for myself that I saw something and I wanted something I didn't know I wanted until I saw it. And really what it was, it was women in love with Jesus Christ.

And they were real and authentic and joyful and normal. You know, it was like, that was the most striking thing to me. I was like, these are women that have been captivated by the love of Jesus. And that is compelling them. And they've been summoned and called in a way that I know that it's not humanly possible. And they've walked away from everything I'm looking for right now, from sport to family life to romance to a degree in a career. They've walked away from all of it. And yet they seem to be the happiest women I've ever met.

So as an 18-year-old, three years later, it was confronting, to say the least. I was like, what is this? What sisters were you encountering back then? It was World Youth Day, Sydney, 2008. Actually, the Dominican sisters were the first ones I met because they came and set up a convent in Australia. Yeah. But it wasn't until I met the Sisters of Life, our community, in World Youth Day, that I, experienced a familiarity that I couldn't describe on my own. There was something about them

whereas it was beautiful and I felt drawn to it. And it was familiar and it hit a little bit too close to home. I didn't even talk to them. I was like at a distance because honestly Matt at first I was like that joy is fake. They're out here to get vocations. They're recruiting. I just need to keep a safe distance. But the more I watch them and witness them and actually experienced in my heart an encounter with Jesus because when they left on the plane, I thought that was a phase. It would be over. but that seed that was planted when they were here drew me into actually just having a prayer life and actually talked to the Lord about this and drew me closer and closer even though they were on the other side of the world.

And what I discovered, it wasn't like determining my vocation. It was really a discovery that this was the way that God created me to love. And I was just coming to see it for the first time, which was beautiful. And you come from a Catholic family. I do. So were they supportive? They were always supportive, but it was very difficult. Like any good family that loves their daughter.

I mean, I didn't dream of living anywhere other than Manly Beach, Sydney, Australia. I mean, for me, I was like, I'm content, I'm happy. I don't want to go anywhere. I traveled a lot. So when it began to arise, you know, my family spotted it even before I did. My mom tells me when I got on a bus with the sisters for an outing, she was like, I knew that you were called. She didn't tell me until six years later. So I made that journey myself, yeah.

But it was really, when I received the grace to take a step towards entering the community, and they discerned that as well. It was a real painful sorrow. And yet God gave just as much grace as I needed to take the next step. And that literally up until this day is what he's been doing. It's like just the grace for another step. And for my family, even though at times it could be more mysterious of how that's helping my family. I know that was a big thing for me discerning. I was like, Lord, why are you?

It seems like I'm hurting them, even asking this question. It seems like I'm taking something from them. And I remember I was bringing this to the Lord like year after year and really struggling with like departure from family and how that fits in God's plan when he's given me a family. And finally, one prayer day, just as crystal clear, he said to me, I'm not asking you to let them go. I'm asking you to open wider and let others into that love. And for me, it was like this powerful grace of freedom,

which I realized I wasn't discarding my family. Actually, they were staying right in my heart on a deeper way, but I wasn't keeping that love exclusively for them, but actually for God's family, which is every human person. And that for a woman was embolding and ennobling. I was like, I want to give that love. So, yeah, the Lord knows what it takes, and he gives the grace to take that step. This episode is sponsored by Clooney.

Clooney exists to bring back the great Catholic books that form generations, books that shaped minds, stirred hearts, and led souls closer to Christ. They're giving new life to treasures from writers like Fulton Sheen, G.K. Chesterton, and Pope Benedict the 16th, as well, as to voices that deserve to be heard again. People like Walter Farrell, Paul Hogan, Helen White, and many more. These men and women once wrote for their time, but their words still have the power to speak to ours. Through Clooney's beautiful and affordable editions, spanning theology, prayer, church history, and timeless Catholic stories, we can rediscover the depths and clarity our

culture so desperately needs. I recently got a box of books from Clooney and was impressed, not just by the titles and the authors, of course, but how beautifully they were put together. As Bishop Eric Varden, a man I respect and you should know about, here's how he put it, he said, Clooney's library is a treasury for readers, an invitation to find wonder in both the familiar and the forgotten. Cardinal Raymond Burke has called Clooney a testimony to Christ alive in the church. And really, that's what this project is about, countering the chaos and amnesia of modern life by remembering who we are, where we've come from and where we're going. The way back is simple, take and read. So visit Clooneypress.com today and save 15% with code Pints 15.

Spring is here, finally. Summer's on the way and you really start to notice how much of life happens in one place. The kitchen table. That's where the conversations happen, where the phones get put down, hopefully, and where the day actually slows down for a minute. For me, being intentional about what I serve there really matters and that's a big part of why I use Good Ranchers. Good ranches partners with local farmers and ranches to deliver 100% American meat straight to your door so you actually know where your food is coming from and you can feel good about what you're serving. Their meat is high quality and it takes distress out of trying to stand in the grocery aisle,

deciphering labels and wondering what you're really buying. We've been using good ranches at the frat household for a while now quite regularly actually and the meat's fantastic. My good wife is pretty much carnivore and has been. for several years right now, so she knows what it means to have good meat and she loves good ranches. So do I. Plus, they've launched something, I think's brilliant, custom boxes, which means instead of being stuck with a present assortment, you can build your own box with exactly what your family wants. Load it up with steaks for the grill, chicken for those busy weeknights, or whatever cuts you reach for most, and it just shows up at your door on schedule.

When you subscribe, you'll get free meat for life added to every box and $25 off your first order with my code pints. That's free meat in every single box for life. Plus $25 off your first order. When you use my code, pints at checkout. Goodranchers.com. American meat delivered. Sister Magnificate, what about you?

You're 15 years old. You're a nun one day. That's a great question, Matt. Well, first I just want to say, those of us sisters who are born here in the United States, we have such awe of our sisters who came from across the world. We just recently were in Australia for in a business. event and I was like,

wonderful. Wow, Lord. Like, she loved all of this for you, but it makes you fall more in love with Jesus because you're like, who is this God? That we know that there's more. Hey, we're starting. All right, listen, so here's what just happened.

So your microphone just went out. And I was told to ask you the question I just asked you and I didn't remember it. And it would feel artificial to have to go back. No. But here's what's amazing is last time I had you lovely sisters on my show up in Steubenville. It was a three-hour show.

God bless you. I feel terrible about this. We felt terribly worse, I think. I felt bad for you. All right, so here's what happened. Three hour show. We walk out and I'm like, here, Josiah, who was my producer at the time, wonderful guy. I'm like, show them a bit of it. And all of the three hour audio was garbled. Unbelievable. The whole thing, every second. And I just wanted to jump out of the window. And so did he.

And y'all were so graceful. And we just prayed. And you were like, no, it doesn't surprise us. This happens all the time. Okay. Anyway, that's the last time anything happened with audio. And that was about a year and a half ago. So that's why the episode never released for those who are watching. And now you come back and you're ruining our electronics again.

Yeah, what is it with us and all the technology? Beautiful. Okay, so where were we? I was asking you about, yeah, so you grew up, you were Protestant, you converted to Catholicism as your mother did when you were about six. And okay. and then I'm Yes, basically

we're going to just shorten it up here because I can also just keep talking Oh, it's lovely to hear you talk Oh my goodness, but yes, I think Yes, we're talking about vocations, vocation story Every sister has our own unique one But, you know, I think for all of us Like, yeah, there's a longing

Like we have the natural desires for marriage and family And for myself, that was definitely real I grew up longing for a big family to get married and have a big family had the kids' names picked out, and then the Lord totally rocked my world. Like, we came into the Catholic church as a family, and, you know, again, I had a lot of joy in life playing sports. The academics had dreams of, yeah, just traveling the world and everything. But encountering Jesus and the Eucharist, yeah, it did. It changed my life. Encountering love himself and someone who's always there,

always available. And there did. There just began, you know, it was like an inkling at first, but grew over time this desire to give my whole life to him. And I couldn't name what that would be. I didn't think it was going to be being a religious sister necessarily. But I remember encountering sisters at World's Youth Day. When I was 16, my parents let me go to Europe with the church, like pilgrimage group. And we, yeah, we slept outside, waiting for the Pope to come. And the whole thing was really epic, but I remember seeing religious sisters. And particularly there was a missionary of charity who I still remember to this day seeing. And the joy and peace that she radiated was remarkable. And it left an impact on me. And so when I was, for the time I made it to college, I was really

asking the bigger questions of where is God calling me in life? And I wrestled for a long time because I did. I still had my dreams of getting married and having my own family. but encountering more religious and again the joy that I saw in them and the radiant love, I was like, these are not depressed women who are thinking about all that they gave up. Like they are radically in love and that's what spoke. And so I just began to really encounter my heart. The thirst of Jesus, Mother Teresa, talks about when Christ was on the cross and said, I thirst.

Mother Teresa would speak of how that was a thirst not just for physical drink, but for our unique love for the. unique love that each one of us can bring, can console his heart with. And I really brought that question to prayer. Like, Lord, how do you thirst for my love? And it wasn't in audible words and it wasn't like he explained my whole life to me, but I just knew in the depths of my heart, like, I was called to give him everything to be his bride and that he wanted to fulfill my desires for love, himself, himself, and to be totally his and my desire for motherhood, like that he wanted me to, be a mother to all of his children, to every human person. And so, yeah, encountering the

Sisters of Life in particular in their charism really echoed in my own heart. I always wanted to work with children, to serve children, thought maybe that meant like going to an orphanage in another country. But then through reading Mother Teresa's writings in particular, I remember she said that the unborn were some of the poorest of the poor. And that's when things began to click in my heart like oh i love children but am i willing to lay down my life for the littlest ones who don't have a voice and for their mothers who are hurting and longing to be seen and and received and so again going to visit the sisters of life was like yeah it was like home for my own heart like this is how i've been created to love and then yeah the rest is history you can see here we are but he's so

faithful and he knows our hearts better than anybody else so i would say that to every young woman and young man out there who's asking, yeah, where God is calling them in life. Yeah, to really be open and honest with the Lord in prayer about your real desires. Like, don't come to him with some masked version of yourself, but with your real heart. And to be like, hey, this is what I desire. This is what I long for. Like, you want to date that girl? Okay, tell the Lord about it. Like, you want to go visit that religious community? Like, talk to the Lord about it. And it's through that dialogue with the Lord through a real relationship with him that we come to know, yeah, how we're created for love.

What's the experience of joining the sisters? Because of course, in joining the sisters, there's a sense in which not only you are still discerning, but they are discerning whether or not you are a right fit for them. So is that kind of like engagement where you think this is it or is it more like dating? And then I guess what's that experience joining? And then like was there a point? Because how long is your preparation? For our community, it's eight years on entrance you can then discern.

So when are you like, all right, we're good. Like, is it final vows? Or, you know, can they say to you a year before, we're good, thank you. We don't want you because that must be absolutely crushing. And I'm sure that only happens if there's serious things going on. But I would think if I was with an order for seven years, they would have told me by now whether or not they were going to allow me to make final profession. So I don't know. Like, what's that experience like?

Yeah. I remember when someone gave me that image of like, oh, it's like an engagement. for eight years. I was like, how horrible. Like an eight year long engagement. And it's beautiful. I mean, every woman's story is so unique and journey. But it is beautiful because it kind of takes a pressure off. When I realized that it wasn't all on me discernment, gosh, it was the biggest relief for my heart. I was like, oh, thanks, pretty God. One, I can get a spiritual director and help my own spiritual journey. But then actually the community that represents the church is also discerning, is this what God is calling you to? And it's kind of like this joint discernment of, yes, is she receiving the

grace and then the community is called on behalf of the church to confirm that grace. Yes, we see God is calling her. You know, but it's interesting, Matt, for women, and I don't want to speak for every sister, but, you know, it's, it was never, I never felt like I was like giving it a shot or trying it out. For a woman, it's such a sacred journey. It's such a deep, sacred journey with the Lord. Like, it's our love we're talking about. It's not just a career choice. It's not, yeah, let's try this out and see what happens. Usually the Lord, yeah, at least for me, he had confirmed that like this was, this was my whole life I was discerning at this point. And the grace was, yes, I'm moving towards Christ as my spouse.

And that's not delayed eight years. You enter into that discernment and relationship as soon as you walk through the convent door for the years before that you're discerning it. And then the Lord at each step, thanks be to God, the church has the reverence, the reverence for our freedom and discernment. This is also too, not just an easy choice to make, that they actually give the woman the sacred space to make that full commitment. Amendment by eight years, you know, so that actually, we both professed final vows a few years ago,

sister a couple of years before me. But like when you get there, it's like the anticipation for that wedding day is something otherworldly. And it's not like you've been holding back your love, but actually you've been entering into this relationship and then it's confirmed by the church publicly on that day. And just, so you kind of have been like a bride preparing for the wedding day for eight years, which sounds kind of crazy sometimes. But it's, it's, it's, It's beautiful. It's like the church reverences the journey. But the woman's heart when she walks through that door, it's, it's wedding day when you enter. It's like you're discerning from the beginning. Is this my life's call? Is this what God's called me to? So it's such a sacred journey. What were the biggest obstacles? Well, do you take three vows or more? Take a fourth vow. That's a great question. So what are they for those at home? Yes. So the traditional vows that all religious would take, so poverty, chastity, obedience, and then as Sisters of Life, we take a fourth vow to protect and enhance the sacredness of human life.

Yes. All right. So which was the hardest? Oh, that's a great question. Because I'm sure all of them in a way are hard. But you know, I often wonder if there's too much emphasis on what religious have to give up, you know, because a man who gets married. it is giving up any other opportunity to either become a brother or a priest or to marry some other woman, you know. And yet I don't walk around sulking about it. I'm pumped. Right. Yeah.

Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. So I don't mean to like put an emphasis on the negative. But at the same time, I understand that there are sisters who are watching who might be struggling. And so I just wonder personally for you, was it, you know, gully, I got to, I got to give up a husband and children or is it I got to be obedient to some. person and hopefully they're great. Absolutely.

Yeah. Did you love shoes? I don't know. Actually, I'm glad you said that. Putting on black shoes, going back to the school shop to buy black shoes was a great death for me. I'd say, but it's funny. It's the little things. It's like, wow, I thought it would be getting on that plane or, you know, but it was

like walking into the shoe shop and sitting down, tying up my laces. I mean, I come from Australia. We wear flip-fops all the time. And so that was a big, but it was a moment to realize, wow, I'm really letting go of everything little and big. And yeah, I would say too, it's fascinating the more I live the life, too. It's like every one of those vows is a no, but actually more authentically, it's a mighty yes. To, oh my gosh, that I can turn to the Lord as my spouse at every turn for every need.

And I'm still a woman. You know, your woman who doesn't stop at the convent door. You're still a woman that needs love, that actually needs a spouse, someone to belong to, to lean on, to live my life with someone. not isolated alone as a widow. So the vow of chastity to actually place Jesus in that place as spouse and actually respond to him, not as if he is my spouse, but as spouse to live that vow to him is a constant call to like, okay, am I ever putting anything above him?

You know, am I turning to others to answer certain questions or am I looking to projects or work to fulfill the need to not be alone? So it's like a constant conversion of like, is Jesus first and foremost in my life? is he the one that I turn to it every turn, whether it's, you know, I'm having a bad mood on one day and I'm struggling with a lie, or, yeah, like I'm experiencing a time of loneliness. Am I going back to my spouse or am I going to other places? So it's a constant call in the life. You know, I also too thought that once you enter the convent, then the battle ends, you know, and then it's all pretty smooth sailing.

Actually, no, there's always more. Always more. And that's the most beautiful thing about religious life. It's actually committing to a life of conversion. That's it. You know, and the vows are ways that Jesus gives us opportunities. to lean on him more as spouse. So it's, yeah, the battles, the battles remain, but also to the grace goes deeper.

And freedom and flourishing is that every turn, so long as we turn to him and actually live our lives as brides. Yeah. What about yourself? Absolutely. No, that's a great question. Yeah, definitely the shoes and getting rid of the cell phone too. I remember going to check, like, the mailbox all the time.

And I was like, okay, maybe I'll get like a letter or something like back. So I'm so used to, like, check in. and everything like that. But I don't know, those things kind of, you just get used to them over time and Jesus fills those places. But for me, one of the, I think the bigger things, like our founder would talk about,

I mean, in our charism we talk about all the time, the uniqueness of every human person and that they're irreplaceable. And our founder would say he didn't want cookie cutter sisters of life. Like we wear the same habit, but each sister is her own person. But I think I experienced the battleground most there. Like I always grew up like just totally being myself and everything.

But then when I put on the habit and I knew like the Lord was giving the grace to be here, I was happy as joyful. But there was also this temptation to think, I need to be this like ideal religious person, you know, and to like try to put something on. And I wasn't, you know, actively thinking of that. But sometimes I would go to prayer and be like, why am I struggling? And it would be like, well, because you're trying to be like sister so and so, you know, where you've got this ideal picture perfect. religious sister, you know, who like never makes a mistake in the world. And yeah, I just had some priests, we're blessed to have like spiritual directors as sisters, which has been so helpful. And so just even naming that struggle and that temptation was so good. I'm so glad you brought that up.

Yeah, no, because it is. I mean, I'm sure temptation for a lot of people, but especially for women out there that compare, despair, the, again, thinking you need to be like this. sand down the particulars of my personality so I can just be some. Exactly. Like in a street jacket. And it's like, oh my gosh, no, that's not going to, that's not going to attract anybody to come to Jesus. Like, they come by authenticity and by seeing you be yourself. I can't remember who said it, but he said, be a saint, be yourself. And obviously, you know, someone who's radically transformed by Jesus to be our, yes, or synchified self. That's it.

And it is, it's a good, that's a beautiful witness you said to, sister. Because, like, even our fourth vow, like, it's such an honor to, like, lay your life down for the sacredness of human life and to be called to that. But as you're talking, I'm like, we're constantly invited. Okay, you know, sisters, you go and talk about this. You say this to the women. You live this publicly. But there's a constant opportunity, even in living the life of like, but am I living that to the sister beside me? You know, do I see her life as a gift?

And do I see my own life as a gift? Do I hold myself in contempt? Are there places that I'm ashamed of that I'm defining myself by my mistakes where I'm slipping up? in the life or, yeah, am I not seeing that in the sister beside me? And that is a place of power and conversion every single day. And as sisters of life in a particular way to live that, and it can also be the battleground where it's very easily to do that publicly, but it's a lot harder to do that in the convent hidden walls. And yet when we engage that and press into that and allow the Lord to unite us in that way, it also becomes the greatest source of community life

and joy, you know, to both end. It's like a battle, but a battle engaged can be sanctifying can be revolutionary. Not that the battle ends that we all just get along and, you know, smile every day freely, but actually no, today I'm in a bad way or I'm battling this lie and I choose to believe in the truth that my sister is a gift. And so is my life. So it's almost like, I don't think the Lord ever totally takes the battle away. He just invites us to lean in more and to live our faith seriously, actually. Mary Grace has reminded me, yeah, just the power of community life. And this is a very small example, but maybe a month ago we were doing a retreat.

And a few of us were leading, like, music during the adoration time. And I just had the bright idea. We kind of had our list of songs that we were going to do. And all of a sudden I got this, like, what I thought was like an inspiration of the Holy Spirit. I don't know. To do this one song called Waymaker, I just love it. And so I was like, okay, sisters, let's do Waymaker. But I realized we hadn't practiced it.

We had never sung it together. And I also didn't have my, like, song sheet with the chords to play it on guitar. So anyways, but the sisters just had such trust in the moment. They're like, okay, sister feels and started to do it. Let's just. So then the sister hands me the guitar. I'm like, I don't even know the chords to this thing, but I was like, okay, here we are. So I started playing it and was playing it in the total wrong key.

I could not even start the words, but the chords were going. So everybody, it was very dramatic. And people were already like starting to like sing it in their, in their piece because they were hearing it. But then it was a powerful experience for me of community because I was standing there so vulnerable. I'm like, why did you even bring up this idea if you weren't prepared for it? Sister Magnificat? And then the sisters now they're going to be like, this is so awkward to put them in this situation. But they one by one.

It was so great. I tried to start singing the verse, couldn't do it. Then another sister would jump in and start trying to sing it and couldn't do it. And then the next sister. And pretty soon we all just decided. let's just sing the chorus, but their smiles in that moment. And they were just all four. They were like, for me and for this bright idea and like, we're in it with you, sister.

We're not going to leave you hanging. We're going to get through this song together and offer it to Jesus and praise. And I was like, that was like the most powerful. I mean, I've been, you know, experiencing times of praise and worship for many, many years. But that was probably like the most powerful experience. I've had a praise and worship with others because of the volunteers. because of the vulnerability of it, and it didn't go great. But I think the Holy Spirit was there and was pleased by the love.

It's the intentionality of like not just doing life perfectly, but doing life together. And that kind of shifts everything. And it's like, you can mess up and kind of land things or not. But to actually have the support and the protection and the, hey, sister, I'm in with you, no matter what happens, we're in this together. It really becomes a source of joy. And you can't have that joy without humility. Yeah.

Because you would have got very angry with yourself, perhaps. and very frustrated and, you know, grumpy because now I've been exposed. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You mentioned self-contempt earlier. I would love you to talk more about that. What does it mean to hold oneself in contempt? And how do we know whether or not we're doing that or to the degree in which we're doing that? And how do we allow Jesus to heal that?

Yeah, what a great question. Yeah. I know we can have, I think with, yeah, it's interesting, you know, with so much capacity growing capacity for the human person now. You know, I mean, we can click our fingers and get anything, do anything, perform anything. There's such an unusually high expectation for all of us to crush everything we do, you know, to be high achievers in every way, almost because we can. But it's fascinating that the human person is not keeping up with the high expectation. We're actually depleting.

You know, it's actually, there's something about us that needs to remain needy, that needs. to remain at a point where, yeah, it needs to remain in communion with God, that I need God, I need a Savior, that actually God is not calling me to be perfect. He's calling me to be myself. And, you know, I'm thinking about, you know, even memories of growing up and my family recently and beautiful memories. And I was remembering recently, I was like, you know, I don't remember all the times that I did everything well. But you know what I remember is when someone saw my goodness, when I did something wrong, or I got caught doing something wrong. And when I held myself in contempt, meaning I blamed myself, I took the accusation on,

I was so angry, disappointed. And someone saw deeper something in me and reminded me of that goodness. And they are moments of conversion in my life that I'll forever be grateful for. And we see this, oh my gosh, talk about women coming set free of the spirit of contempt. But I would say women that we walk within our hope and healing mission, like these heroes that are engaging this grace daily. So they've experienced a suffering that has really wounded a woman

at really a deep part of what it means to be a woman, to be a mother, to be a protector, nurturer. And suffering that experience of abortion can allow an assault of lies. You know, you're unforgivable. You're not worth anything more. You're too far gone. These are the lies that they've told us

they hear afterwards that the enemy just has a heyday on them. You know, but what we've seen in these women, and some of them suffer these lies and carry these burdens that wear on them for years, sometimes decades, carrying these burdens. And, you know, when they receive a grace of healing, and that is like a turning to actually allow Jesus to help them in that place, to come to them in that place, they don't experience accusation and judgment and a pointing finger. They actually experience the truth, the truth of God's mercy, which is love poured out in our misery. And actually, actually to be loved in that place literally gives them a chance to have a whole new beginning in a place that they couldn't will themselves out of.

They couldn't think, just think themselves out of it. So I, yeah, it just, I mean, they come to mind, especially when I think of the spirit of contempt. And it reminds me as a sister, I'm like, gosh, anytime that I get tangled up in these lies to I identify with, you know, the last time I didn't nail that talk or I said something that, gosh, I wish I didn't say to that woman. I wish I said it that way. We can so easily stop our identity at where we slip up. When in God's sight, he always sees the sacred goodness and is calling us to, yes, repent. sentence, yes, to turn to him, but actually to live from the true self. And that is you and I, the core of our souls is Jesus alive and living there with us. And so long as we're constantly,

we might be falling every other day, but falling and then rising in his grace, allowing us to love in those places, then the contempt cannot hold us back. It actually just becomes a place of encounter. We all have mobile phone services. It's time to support a phone company that supports us. Switch to our sponsor, Charity Mobile. They're different. They're proudly, pro-life and impacting the culture of life in America. With charity mobile, there's no compromise on service, quality, or affordability. You get the same nationwide coverage as the major carriers with no contracts, and their customer service is staffed by pro-life Americans. Every month, they take a percentage of what you pay and send it directly to the pro-life pro-family charity that you choose. Over the last 30 years,

that's added up to millions of dollars, making a real difference. And all plans start under 50, bucks before taxes and fees. When it comes to phone services, Charity Mobile makes it easier than ever to buy the way you believe. New customers can use my code, Matt Frad, to get a free phone with every new line, plus free activation and free shipping. So it's pretty simple. Why not have your phone bill actually support what you believe in? Check out CharityMobile and see for yourself. To get started, visit charitymobile.com slash Matt Frad. That's Charitymobile.com slash Matt Frad and use promo code, Matt Frad at checkout. You know, starting something new is, well, can be terrifying. I remember when I launched this show, I had really no clue what I was doing, exactly no clue actually, what I was doing. I kept thinking,

what if nobody but my mother listens, you know, what if I make an idiot of myself, which I then proceeded to do. But that's not the point. Starting something new like a podcast or business online can sound a bit overwhelming because it is. Like you need a degree in web design, marketing, or maybe wizardry, possibly. But that's where our sponsor Shopify comes in. It's the platform trusted by millions of businesses, big names and folks just getting started to bring their ideas to life. Shopify even powers our own daily wire shop and 10% of all e-commerce in the US, which is bananas if you think about it. What I love is how simple it makes everything. You can design a beautiful online store with ready-made templates that actually reflect your brand,

then let Shopify's AI tools do the heavy lifting, writing your product descriptions, improving your photos, and even punching up your headlines. And when it comes to getting your name out there, Shopify's got built-in tools for email and social campaigns that make it feel like you've suddenly hired a marketing team. Plus, that little purple shop pay button, it's not just pretty, it's the highest converting checkout on the planet. Fewer abandoned carts, more happy customers. It's time to turn those what-ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at Shopify.com slash pints. Go to shopify.com slash pints. That's Shopify.com slash pints.

Yeah, that's good. I wanted to ask you to distinguish between this. We're called to repent of our sin, to acknowledge it bravely without, you know, makeup. Putting lipstick on the pig is what I'm getting at. Yeah. So what's the difference between acknowledging our wretchedness and confessing it and striving to be virtuous and self-contempt, you know? Because someone might just thought, well, that was the same thing, I thought, you know.

Yep. It's interesting. I remember missionaries were just telling us they were walking around meeting with different homeless and calling people, yeah, back to a life of faith or even just ministering by giving bread and food. And they met this one young man that they'd seen on the streets day after day. And then this one morning, he was lined up in the sobriety line to begin a program of healing from addiction. And these missionaries went up and they were like, I'll call him Johnny. They were like, Johnny, what are you doing here? It's even, it's half an hour before the door's open. Like, what are you, what are you lying in up for? And he started Jerry's

story and he's shared about how he was, he was an alcoholic by the age of a 12 years old, was on the street by age of 13, suffered horrifically, but was most ashamed about the things that he did and couldn't even speak, put word to them. And Neri is like 20 years old now on the streets and he said, but you know, and we were like, okay, but this is still not lining up to like why you're here at the sobriety line. And he said, but you know what? He said yesterday, I realized that I'm more, that there's more to me than the things that I've done. I just realized that I'm worth more, that my life is worth more. And so he said, I got up and I thought, today's the day, I'm going to turn that round.

Come on. And in all simplicity, but like, he actually realized a deeper truth that goes so much deeper than the ways that you and I mess up, take this wrong turn, that wrong turn. And I think sometimes we can idolize our understanding of God's mercy. Well, say that. What does that mean? You know, that we think that so long as I tick this box, I get that clean, I start pulling up my socks, which is part of it, but actually, you know, the very sacrament of confession is an, it's actually like a prayer of praise.

I praise you, God, that you are more than the sins that I've committed. That you can meet me in the places that I cannot bring myself out of. That you see the more to me than where I have messed up and held myself accountable, held myself an unforgiveness. This is part of the story, but it is not our whole story. And the whole story is that you and I have a father that loves us and that Jesus died for every sin he knew we would commit in our lives. And so there is always a pathway forward.

There's always a new plan, a new door that Jesus has ahead of us. And I think humility is living in that truth that, yes, I'm a sinner, but I have a savior that has conquered every sin. You know? Yeah, beautiful. Yeah, we're not us. I'm thinking of Paul somewhere. I forget which epistle, because I'm a good Catholic, I guess.

He says something like, you know, deal with gentleness to those who are caught in sin. Something like that. You know, do you know what I'm referring to? And I just thought, well, okay, then if I'm someone caught in sin, then I should probably express meekness to myself as well, because just like it's a sign of immaturity to express with undue harshness towards somebody, and that's coming out of an immature place, so too if I start looking at inward at myself with that, like that. And it has the appearance of rigor, you know, I'm going to be better.

And so we all praise that because we, We believe that to be good and it is good. But when it's done with an impatience, it's not good. Yeah, right. Always recalling some Francis de Sales words, have patience with the whole world, but chiefly have patience with yourself. Never become discouraged at, you know, your sins, but every day begin the task in you. We so need to hear that. And we need to hear it from people like Francis to Sales.

So we're not accused of being modernists. I think, you know, like we all understand that maybe. Maybe there was this emphasis on God's mercy, but it was cheap mercy in many Catholic circles, you know? And that was probably my thing growing up. I was never really told about sin and what sin was and how to commit it and why it would make me unhappy. So it was just like, God loves you and we're companions on the journey or something. And I was so bored by the whole thing. So then when you're just sort of told God loves you, you're like, yeah, okay, whatever.

Like God loves me and the earth is round and the sun is hot, I guess. You know, none of it is hitting. All right. Which is actually why, like, where we stumble can be the greatest place of our conversion. Because we actually, you know, I'm just reminded of this one woman. And actually, sometimes it's like, yeah, it's like the power of the gospel message to actually, Jesus came for the sinners. It's like us that are stuck in sin and actually stumbling that we actually have a place to go.

I remember this one woman, a sister and I were going for a rosary walk and we went outside the convent. And she just walked right up to us and said, oh, what are you all up to? I don't think she didn't know quite how to start a conversation with the sister. I wouldn't have known how to. What do you up to? And I didn't really know what to say. And I didn't know if she was Catholic or not. And I was like, oh, we're going for a rosary walk.

And she was like, well, can I come? And I was like, yeah, sure, you can come. So we go for a rosary walk and she was praying along. So I knew she was Catholic. And then we stop. You know, this is like, you know, this is like, so what else do you do? Do you just do rosary walks? And I was like, no, no.

We have a mission where we walk with women who are pregnant and we walk along college students. And we do a lot of spreading the good news. And I said, we also walk with women who have suffered the experience of an abortion to see new life. And she just broke down. And she said, well, will you serve me? And we went on this beautiful, yeah, a journey of her company with her for years and years. But I'll never forget about three years after walking with her. And we have these beautiful days of retreat.

There's no secret source. We basically just open the church to these women. You know, the sacrament of confession is available. But it's private and confidential. They receive the Eucharist. They're in a confidential setting with other women that have suffered. And at the end of this day, I was dropping her off at the train station. And she said to me, sister, you know, do you charge for this stuff?

And I was like, what a funny question. I was like, oh, no, no, it's all for free. She said, we should think about it because she said, if people knew what you were given away here, you'd be making big bucks. Oh, gosh. But it's like this scandal of mercy that it actually is, we should allow it to confront ourselves that, oh, my goodness. Yes, we are loved beyond actually any way that we could totally understand or fathom. It's almost like I would feel more comfortable if Father demanded $1,000 to forgive my mortal sins. Right.

I'd actually be like, all right, good, that's done because I've paid it. But to give it for free and repeatedly. Yes. And to allow that to be the point of conversion of like, oh my God. Like, have we really sat with that? Have we really sat with that that I, that my Savior loves me? And even when I reject and I'm faithful, when I've slipped up and gone very much away, that he loves me still, that actually he died for me whilst we were still in a sense.

state of sin. I mean, this is like, we need to bring back the compelling nature of the gospel, that this is just not a nice gummy bear, like to cheer you up on a bad day. This is like revolutionary. It doesn't make sense, but mercy is magnificent. It touches the places we can't go on our own. And that's what I think we need to bring back to the church and even evangelization, not to be afraid of such as good news. It's radical, life-changing news. In all its simplicity and grandeur, we've forgotten how scandalous it is, the love of Jesus Christ. And just how far he's gone that you and I can live in the freedom. And the more freedom we live in with the love of Jesus Christ, we do end up sinning less.

Because we don't want to offend this beautiful love that we're now receiving fully and more freely. And it's like, actually, I want to speak of you. I want to glorify you. I detest the state of sin. But that's a journey. That's a journey. Now, I don't know your histories and don't mean to presume, but have you ever had a woman say to you, you know, what the hell would you know? Like, have you ever paid someone to kill your child?

So it's all great you're sitting here talking about how merciful God is, but you have no idea. Do you ever get that kind of? Every now and then. And what do you say? Because I understand where it's coming from. Yeah. Yeah. I think so many people are they're just coming with walls up, you know, and for reasons they've been hurt.

They've experienced trauma and abuse and a lot of suffering. And so we will have people question us too, like sisters. like, have you ever suffered? You know, like we see you're joyful up there. Like, could you really know where I'm at? But, you know, so much of our ministry is really listening to the human heart and receiving them and showing them. But it's like, yes, we don't know, you know, every woman's unique situation, don't know that exact experience. But we've wrestled in our hearts.

I mean, we've had to wrestle with, yeah, the scandal of the cross ourselves. And to receive God's mercy, that wasn't something, you know, you just, like, you just, like, came out of the womb, like easy to receive. Like, no, like we've had a journey through that too. And so I think just in those conversations, the more that they experience a safe place to be received and that we're not there judging them or like, yeah, just wondering how in the world could they have done this, like not that at all, that we're just, we're honestly, they're in awe that these women are coming to us, that they're willing to share their hearts,

their sufferings. It's funny you say that. I just had a priest here recently who I was interviewing, and he was saying that when somebody he knows comes to confession and confesses really grave sin that they're embarrassed about, and which is shameful objectively, his respect for them goes through the roof. Oh, absolutely. You're in awe because shame isolates us. It has a grip on us.

It says nobody else would ever understand. The evil one tries to get us, you know, to keep that secret and keep that hidden. Because if somebody found out, you know, what would they think of you? but shame loses its power. And the heart can actually begin healing when there's, again, a safe place, a trusted place, not blasting it over social media, but again, talking to a trusted person

about these areas of darkness or shadows and our own heart. And I've seen that too, you know, again, in the women that we serve, I remember one who she had just been criticized her whole life, really, and had been in so many unhealthy relationships, had made a lot of decisions she wasn't proud of. And I remember she wouldn't let us come to her apartment.

She'd always, you know, come to the convent and visit us there, but she didn't want us to bring her anything, you know, because it was like there was still an area of shame in her heart. And I remember noticing, wow, there's been so much growth when a year later, you know, she had her child. And her life wasn't in a, you know, incredible spot, but I could tell that something had changed in her heart when she said, sisters like you can come by my apartment today and went into her apartment and there was like a candle

burning you know and she had like cleaned up the place and she you could tell yes it was like the smile on her face of like now I can welcome somebody in and that's when we know like shame has lost some of its grip when someone comes to know that again her apartment was just an expression of her heart that she was coming to realize that her heart was good that deep down her heart was good and deep down her heart was and beautiful and worthy of love and worthy of people coming into. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah, talk about that because I think the temptation is to keep Christ at an arm's length.

To, of course, he knows everything, but to reveal just enough to him. And maybe that's religion. Maybe that's what this Catholicism is about. It's about kind of get my life together and go on a holy mass and not commit an adultery and not masturbating and not killing anybody or whatever. That's what it's about. So that's good. So just fix me up to here.

that's good, right. But the idea that Christ wants to come and feast with us, as it were, come into those deep places. So I think a lot of us don't even know if that's what Christianity was about. What are you talking about? What is this new weird thing you're speaking of? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that God actually wants to get personal with me. You know, that he actually, God is interested in us. Yeah. You know, he's, and he desires union with us, like actually to live our life with us, not for us just to be useful or get something done or achieve great things. It's like, actually, God is so much more wonderful and creative than that, and he's so much more interested in us. You know, I think of even just thinking of like the hot button topics or issues, and this

question reminds me of it, I remember we were outside an abortion clinic once praying for women, trying to give them an opportunity for real help. And I remember this berated woman came up. She was absolutely fuming. She was an older woman. She had what looked like a granddaughter with her, and I was standing with another sister. And she was just like, losing her mind. I just had never heard so many curse words in one conversation. At you. At us too. Yeah. And I just, I was a young sister in the community, so I didn't know how to handle it. So I was kind of like just shocked and shut down. Welcome to America. Exactly. But to say my Australian shut down nature was coming. I was like, I don't want to engage conference. Free spit. So I like,

anyway, so this, I start talking to the granddaughter. I was like, that was a little bit safer for me. So I'm talking to her, just getting to know her. And this one sister begins talking to this grandmother. And she keeps just like, yeah, spilling out horrible things. And sisters listening to her, listening to her 15 minutes ago, 12 minutes ago. And I'm And the conversation is quietening down. Next minute, I look over my shoulder and they are embracing with tears. And I'm like, what? And so I go over just to back her up, just make sure everything's okay and talk to her after.

And this woman revealed to us that she had suffered 17 abortions. Bless. Deeply in pain, deeply suffering, and had never experienced somebody welcoming her or showing her that there was a way forward. Until that sister listened to her. Didn't judge, didn't direct her, didn't shame her, didn't point the finger, didn't say, told you, so. It was like she presented to her the heart of Jesus, which said, I am with you, I have never left you. I'm here and I'm so glad you're coming home. And by the end of that conversation, which was literally just a matter of loving her and refusing to give up on the sacredness in her,

allowed that woman to take a step towards healing. And this is the kind of unity. I mean, we think of unity in like high loft unity, absolutely want every corner of our heart. Jesus Christ is so in love with us that he is not going to stop converting us and calling us to deeper until he has every space of her heart. Why? Not because he wants to be some critic at distance or wants us to be a perfect, perfect creature. He wants us to be ourselves, to be with us. I mean, it's the whole reason we're here. And it's especially the places where we're in pain, where we've been held back, where we don't know Christ's love, that he is never going to stop pursuing us and showing us that there's a way forward. That that is a place that he still loves, honors, and wants to be unified in. Yeah. Yeah, it helps you

see that the rage of the world, I'm thinking of the rage that led to the crucifixion of Christ. Was it Julian of Norwich who said God sees sin as pain in us? That's good. Yeah, I read just recently, I think Carol Houselander said, if we only look for Christ in the saints, we will miss him. Ah. You know, this reality that Jesus Christ is living every part of his life and every human person. You know, and that someone in our lives right now might be experiencing the crucifixion deep pain that looks like it has no end in chronic illness and not sure why the mystery of what's

going on. They're living at Calvary and Christ is living that suffering in them. Or you have the young person, you know, searching for meaning and looking for Christ and wondering where he is and experiencing the loneliness of the desert and wondering whether Christ is going to come and speak truth where they hear lies. You know, Christ is living literally his life in every one of our lives. And the more that we actually make an intentional act of faith to believe that in one another, we see each other totally differently. We don't see burdens anymore. We don't necessarily just see people struggling with this sin and addiction. You see a soul that Christ is in love with and Christ is laboring to set free and that he's actually preoccupied with the poor. He actually

is drawn to the places in which we're struggling. It's the desert that he runs to, not to shame us, but actually to say, I don't want that place to be a lonely place anymore. I don't want you to be striving on your own, relying on yourself. That's where I come. And where you are under attack where you've heard lies, where the enemy is pursuing me, I come to set you free and my word is stronger. My word can speak here. Yeah. What is self-reliance? How do we repent of it and stop it? Just big little question. That's a great question. We should be asking you too. You want to call a friend or something? No, it's true. We're constantly, at least for myself, I know I'm constantly coming up against that.

I forget that I have a God who's kind of, yeah, he made the world, made me like a good father, you know, and how often there's just like spiritual amnesia or like throughout the day I'm just forgetting and trying to get my things together and do it on my own. And yeah, I think the more that we just, again, it's like in relationship with him, you know, that we can begin to trust him and experience in real tangible ways, his faithfulness. You know, it's one thing to know in our minds that God is faithful and he's good. And we can make acts of faith in that. And that's actually important. It's truth. But again, it's like in the real daily moments when we see, yeah, his love, his mercy, the ways that he provides.

And even through others, like, I experience it through my sisters where I'm like, I don't have to do this on my own. I remember, again, talking about World Youth Day a lot, but being at World Youth Day as a sister, in Poland. And it was at the end of our trip. And we had, again, just had mass with the Pope. And then it just started pouring rain. And we had miles and miles to walk to get to the train. And I was feeling so sick. And I was trying to like, carry my like heavy backpack and something else. And I was like, I'm going to do this. And a sister, one of my sisters, like, kindly offered to help me. She could tell I was like really struggling. And I was like, no, no. You know, it's like, again, this is like typical American. And Yeah, just I grew up like being very independent.

I got it. Like don't need your help. Like meanwhile, that's so offensive. There's somebody who's like trying to offer you like help and support. But I did. I just kept going. But then I was like like hunched down and clearly struggling. And then finally like she was so good.

She like asked again like sister, I'd really, I'd love to help you. Like it's not a problem for me. It's not a burden. Yeah. For me. I was like finally like, okay, yes. Like please like help me. But I was just so grateful for her.

for her patience in that. And I think, yeah, to have patience with ourselves, too, that it's like, again, all the growing in virtue is a work in progress, you know, and I think we can get more discouraged the more we just beat ourselves up. We're like, oh, man, I was self-relying again. And then it just is like the downward spiral. But this patience of like, okay, I notice it in myself and I run to Jesus again. I love St. Trez of the suit and her little way and her emphasis on being a child because

it is. a child's not, like we can overthink sometimes. But again, it becomes, it comes in these simple moments when you're like, I notice an area where I'm resisting or I'm putting up a wall or I'm trying to do it on my own. And again, it just takes time to become more self-aware,

but it's in these little ways where we're like, I'm sorry, Jesus, you know, there I was, being self-reliant again, and not getting, you know, it's when we turn inward and look too much at our self and our weakness and our sin. Again, we need to repent of it, but there can be sometimes an over-focus on it. And then we just get trapped in ourselves. Meanwhile, we've got a good, good father and our Savior, Jesus Christ, who's like, I gave my life for you on the cross. Like, I love you this much,

you know? My arms are outstretched to you. And it's like, they've already there. And so, yeah, I think just the simplicity of being honest and naming these things. And again, just more and more, I think over time, you just more quickly turn to him to ask for help. But I'm definitely work in progress. I'm trying to grow on that myself. I think self-reliance is the thorn in my side, you know, and I was running a bit of it recently. I was struggling with just like a lie that was lingering. You're like, I know that lie is not true. You know, like, I'm inadequate.

I'm a total disappointment. But I was like, wow, it's coming with a bit of force and strong. And I was turning to the Lord. I thought I was like praying about it. I was like, I'm a nun. I'm doing that. And I remember one morning, like it was like three days, but it was like lingering. It was kind of like heavy on me.

And I remember one morning, I was just brushing my teeth. And I kind of got exhausted. And I was like, Lord, when are you going to take this away? you know, and I almost heard very clearly, you know, as I'm drooling with two-paced, when will you accept me in this? And I realized that, oh my gosh, I'd been battling for three days on my own, trying to think positive thoughts, trying to strategize how to break free of it, trying to intentionally do good things, but actually doing it completely on my own.

And it reminded me of this truth that Jesus gives the cross, but he never gives the cross without the gift of himself on it. And actually more than beating, you know, certain lies or making things, work is an invitation to relationship here at every point. And that's where, like, I think self-reliance can be the greatest advocate for a relationship with Jesus Christ. You know, self-reliance, it never gives us restfulness. You know, it actually just gets us in the cycle of, like, we exhaust ourselves because we actually cannot satisfy ourselves on our own. If you could sum up self-reliance, what is it still? Because this is a new term that I've been hearing lately. If you ask my dear

wife, what's the one thing she wrestles with, she would say self-reliance. But for many people who are watching this, they're still not quite sure. Is it to sort of live, to live practically godless? Is it to get my stuff together? Like, pull myself up by my bootstraps and then hate myself when I can't? What is it? I think now that you're saying that, because those things are, like, that's important. Like, we have great capacities, human beings, and we need to engage a will and make virtuous choices and engage it. But I think self-reliance is when we do any of that without outside of the relationship with Jesus Christ.

I think that's important because Jesus is constantly challenging us. He's calling us to repentance. He's calling us to conversion to greater depths to take another step. You know, Jesus often challenges us. I think it becomes self-reliance when we step out of relationship and step forward on our own. And that can have a multitude of different ways. And it could be just subtle. Is it not abiding?

not abiding? It could, yeah, yeah. I think, I think, yeah, it could be that. Then we've got to talk about what that means. Yeah. And I think it's the simple awareness that I'm not living my life on my own and I'm here because God wants me here

and I'm going to live in a relationship. And that can be some days a moment by moment choice, even in the convent where you're like, okay, Jesus, what are you doing about this? Okay, Jesus, where are you leading me? Oh my gosh, Jesus, I'm struggling with this lie. And that's not an overnight. that's a journey, but the more that we allow the journey to be with Jesus, self-reliance doesn't

have room in our hearts. It doesn't mean the battle's over and we're following God at every turn, but that we are intentionally engaging the relationship or at least making the effort to is what helps us live not self-reliant. Yeah. What am I thinking here? I think that sometimes I like to say when I sit down to pray, I'll say to myself, where are you? Like just right now, where are you? And that self-reflection is often absent in our daily lives. We rush headlong from one distraction to the other, from one duty to the other. And we're not even present to ourselves.

So I think for me, when I say like, okay, where are you? And then I'll start to like, oh, golly, I'm carrying a lot here. You know, I was saying recently that it's been like there's been some pressure here to perform. I've just joined the daily wire and bloody hell. I mean, I hope that episode does well. And if it doesn't, what does that say about me? But none of that is up here. It's somewhere hanging on me like baggage.

And the Lord, by his grace, will sometimes just go, you know, see that you carry in? I'm like, oh, my gosh. It sort of reminds me of those people who lose a ton of weight and then they hold a bunch of orange bags and go, this is what I was walking around with before, you know, with this kind of weight. And so I feel it. And then I do, personally I do this thing that my good friend John Eldridge has been teaching me. It's to practice first Peter 5'7. And this to me seems to be the antidote. And I don't know if I'm right.

Maybe I should understand what self-reliance is. So you can tell me if this makes sense to you in relation to self-reliance. But it's like surrender. And so I'll just go like, just to use that example, hey, of like, golly, I've got to perform. Like, what if I'm not performing here? Yeah. It's like, oh, okay, so I feel how heavy that is. and then I feel maybe the heaviness of what's going on politically

or that stupid thing I said yesterday or that shame that I'm not smarter than I wish that I was or not as well read as I wish that I was like there's a myriad of things and the more particular I can get the better not just like I feel bad but like I hate that I grew up not reading good books and I don't know if I'll ever catch up

I wish that I was joyful like that person and I'm not and I'm not even sure it's within me to be that way Like the more excruciatingly particular, though it doesn't take excruciating effort, just kind of it's revealed to me, right? And then I can sit in that and feel the weight of it. And then I practice first Peter 5'7. Cast all your anxieties upon him because he cares for you. But I don't even take on the added weight of having to do it well.

I just go, Father, Jesus, Holy Spirit. Yeah. I give everything to you. and then I just name it. You know, that fear that I'm not doing well. And then I give every one to you. So everything and every one. Because I want union with you.

I want to be in communion with you. And it's so interesting that as I say that, I just feel stuff. I can feel it. Relief. I know. I was like, keep praying. Yeah. And but then I say, and sometimes I'll even get really honest with our Lord. I'll say, now, Lord, you know me.

I'm a bit of a knucklehead. And I will take all of this back from your beautiful hand. as soon as we're done here. And even that I'm okay with, but just for now, I just give it to you, Lord. And then I feel this release and this relief. And I go, cricky. Like, I could live like that. That'd be nice, you know, or even just occasionally.

And then sometimes it's like, well, I can't do that. And I didn't feel that relief. And it's like, all right, well, I surrender that I can't surrender to you. And I say all this because of what you had to say about our beautiful Therese, who's just the she should be called an iron will, not a little flowery. I mean, that woman. That's a great woman. It is.

Yeah. I think you just named it there, Matt, where it's like living in reality and remaining in relationship. And it's not ever perfect, but it's almost like striving to like stay in reality because that's where God is and constantly making efforts, whether it once or a day or a million times a day, to stay in that relationship. And we see it in Jesus. That's how he lived. He stayed in relationship with the father, even to the point where he felt abandoned and he could

not hear the father on the cross. But you notice he referred. refuses to cease the dialogue. Father, why have you abandoned me? Even if it is an abandonment, he's stepping forward in dialogue. So I think it's like this central thing of like, okay, we might not know how to live totally free of self-reliance. But actually self-reliance is just a matter of taking out the self and putting in God.

So how do I rely on God more? And God is in reality and I have a choice to constantly re-engage that relationship. Yeah, it's so powerful. I love what you said of like, Lord and I might take it back from you after this. of like how much that like humility and honesty would just like console Jesus's heart of like, okay, here's a man, there's no duplicity, you know, who's just saying it like it is. And those are where we hear, you know, sometimes when we voice, not sometimes, but when we voice our struggles to the Lord, when we voice the lies we're experiencing, it ends up being this gift for

us because we actually get to hear back to us the truth. And again, listening to God's voice that takes time and we learn more of what his voice sounds like in our hearts, you know, through the years. But I know that's why as sisters, we find it a great practice to pray the examine prayer at some point in the day, and again, not just an examination of conscience, which is great to prepare for the sacrament of confession and reconciliation. But a real looking back over the day with Jesus and surrendering it to him, you know, and asking the Holy Spirit for light to see where is the Lord at work through the day? Or Lord shed light on that

difficult situation. I remember not too long ago I was praying the examin prayer and, you know, I just finally just said to the Lord like, Lord, I just feel belittled in this situation, you know, and just naming that lie that was coming on, that experience allowed. It was so particular. It was so particular and I could finally voice it. I was like, just feeling belittled. And I don't honestly, I don't hear the Lord's voice like this all the time. It wasn't, it's not always like this immediate thing. And usually I've got a lot of other stuff going on that distracts me from hearing his voice. But in that moment, again, it was just a whisper of the heart, not something super audible, but just a be little. Be little.

And it totally transformed the whole experience from being like this negative. I'm being belittled to like your littleness is not an obstacle. I created you little. Like stay little. Please be little. Like be humble. And it just turned the whole thing on its head, you know? And so that's like, that's what our Lord does.

for us with everything with all the lies, all of it. It's like, yeah, he's the one who, as his Maria's saying, like, dined with sinners, you know, and who made, yeah, the cross the greatest victory. So, yeah, this is the faith we proclaim. I remember one of the saints in, too. The closer you get to God, the more you're aware of your poverty. I think Teresa of Avala was talking about this. Yeah, so, oh, please, no. Well, I had this, um, I was living in Ireland. Yeah. In Donegal. And we had just got this big snowfall. And it was stuck around, you know, for weeks. And I remember I was, you know, in the kitchen washing up and I look out the window and there's this crisp blanket of snow in our

backyard. Look very lovely. Good, good. And as the sun continued to warm up the earth, the snow began to melt. And I noticed, oh, it's not as clean as I thought it was. There's a tricycle laying on the side and I can see a handle sticking out. So I trudged across and pulled it up and put it in the shed. And you see where this is going. as the snow began to melt, I realized the backyard was filthy. Like there was like toys and trash that had, you know, flown in or whatever. And it's a bit like that, I think, as we grow in relationship with the Lord. And as the frost begins to melt, you go, wow, I thought I was doing fine, right?

I thought I was great. And now I'm seeing all this. But I think we only can have the courage to look at that once we trust that he loves us. You know, like if you were the child of a demanding, angry, unpredictable parent, then I can't look at this because if I admit this, then who the heck knows what's going on. But it's like when we encounter his love, then it's like, all right. Then I have the freedom to acknowledge my wretchedness, but I'm trusting in my belovedness the entire time.

It makes it easier, I think. That's so true. This episode is sponsored by the St. Paul Center. We Catholics have a million Lent programs and thank God for them. It's great that they help us grow closer to the Lord throughout the Lenton season. But what do we do throughout the 50 days of the Easter season? Like the women disciples of Matthew 28, we are called to announce the joyful news of the Lord's resurrection

and to accompany others on their journey with the risen Lord. Easter is a very important liturgical season. We often put a lot of emphasis on Lent and then Easter shows up and we forget all about it. Let's not do that this time. This Easter season, how do you walk alongside others, confident that together you're drawing closer to our risen Lord. St. Paul Center invites you to join Father Bonifas Hicks, the Mercederian Sisters, and their well-renowned theologians for a unique Easter challenge.

Over these 50 days, you'll learn the art of spiritual accompaniment with Father Bonifus Hicks, renowned author and spiritual director. You'll discover the biblical foundations of spiritual accompaniment with the St. Paul Center's theological and biblical experts, and you'll witness the transformative power of spiritual companionship through the testimony of the Mercederian system. This challenge combines practical insight, theological expertise and first-hand experience. Our faith is never truly understood until it's shared. So, share your faith with others this Easter season by joining the Easter accompaniment challenge.

Join the challenge by visiting St. Paul'scentre.com slash pints and becoming a member today. And it's like, honestly, looking back at my own life in the last week, I'm like, wow, the days that I struggled most, I think I prayed best. Yeah. Because you're aware of your need and you're aware that, yeah, life is living as a child of God, you know, and that I can run to my father, that I can turn to him. But it is. I think that's the power of the simplicity of like going back to like why it's so important to not just like let these truths wash over us, but actually soak into us. Like if I really believe that God is father and good and Lord, please reveal that to me if I

haven't or that's been something missing or lacking or actually I've experienced the opposite in my life. Allowing yourself to be accompanied with people that can journey with us in seeing the truth of God's love is really just the beginning of a whole new life. The life to which we're called to, to be free of not being perfect, to be free of not crushing everything, to be free of this burden, this expectation to constantly improve and get more efficient, that actually the relief of this endless call to be child, to be child is a great freedom. And you do, you become more needy, but more needy and more freely.

I can call my father like Jesus did to his dying breath. God was father. Yeah. I was reading a book by Martin Shaw recently. Do you know who Martin Schro? He wrote a book called Liturgies of the Wild. Yes, you did. Litigies of the Wild, beautiful book.

And he mentioned that when he grew up, he always saw the sign of the cross as like warding something off as opposed to letting something in. And the Lord gave him this beautiful grace recently where, as I made the sound of this is going to sound so bizarre. So buckle up. As I made the sign of the cross, the Lord gave me this grace to imagine myself slicing myself open and then opening my whole self up to him and letting him in. And I don't know what you think about the gift of tongues. I'm not claiming that I had the gift of tongues.

I think we get really nervous when people get really emotional and that might lead to some heavy-handed thoughts about emotions in prayer. And I think there's room for that. And this wasn't that, but I just started to like moan and mumble and cry to the Lord. Wow. And I realized, and what was lovely was I have no idea what I'm expressing, but I know that you do. And the reason I say that is I just think this is some, this we could all do with a bit of that kind of prayer. Because I don't even trust myself when I ask the Lord for things where I tell him about himself or myself. I don't know why I'm doing it or if I mean it or any of that.

But to get to that point where I can kind of just, like get in touch with where I'm at and just, I want to encourage everyone to do that. Ask for the Holy Spirit to give you the grace to just, yeah, moan, be weird, groan before the Lord. Yeah, maybe shut the door. Because he knows, yeah, even if you don't. That's it. And it's the full richness of the human emotions. It's both the like, friendly jubilant, joyful times, but also the lamenting. a priest talk about the power of lamenting not that long ago, but it's like, sometimes we don't even

know, like you're saying, we don't even know what's going on or what we're even, you know, sometimes, yes, we are grieving particular things in life or sorrowing over particular things. And other times, it's just like the whole big thing. We're just groaning about, you know, the sufferings we see in the world or the sufferings we've experienced in life. But, yeah, coming before him as child. So that's powerful. I want to go back to this idea because I really do think, okay, so.

All right. So I want to get back to this idea that we're overcompensating sometimes and we're very afraid of language that sounds therapeutic or language that sounds emotional. Right. Okay. So I'm in somewhere in the States given a talk many, many years ago. I'm a very old man. And after the talk, a fella comes up to me and he says, the Lord wants me to sing over you. Now, I've never been sung over before, and I was pretty sure I would never wanted that to happen. Convinced, actually. And so instead of just saying, thank you so much, I wouldn't feel comfortable with that. Instead of doing that, I was like, oh, absolutely. Okay, well, let me just meet some of these people. And then I said to my host, get me out of here now. Right.

Now, who knows? Maybe I was wrong to reject that. But I didn't want that to happen. And we've all experienced that. You know, like maybe you've got that aunt who gets super into Christianity and she starts telling you what the Lord's telling you. And you're like, I don't know, grandma or whatever. Like, this is a bit much. And if you've been burnt by that, like if you've grown up in a community where maybe you've seen people use that in a manipulative way, or if you've seen like this emotionalism.

Yeah, you're like, no thank you. And so you can kind of be allergic to that. I can be, I can definitely be allergic to that where it's like I don't trust it. Like I don't trust the heart. I don't trust my yearning, my passion, my desire. Rightly ordered, of course. I don't trust that. I don't trust it in other people.

It's unsafe. You know, if you had a very emotional mother or an emotional father, like, that's the last thing I want. Yeah. So anyway, what do you think about that? And how do we need to have? Is that something you've had to sort of, I don't know, like work through so that you can realize that our emotions and our desires. Yeah. Properly ordered a gift.

Yeah, absolutely. Yes. It's beautiful. You know, I think, you know, we can't, we, God is not a God to be tamed. You know, and he has such, we can't even imagine the ways in which he expresses his love for us. And, you know, I think you remind me of, you know, when in the Gospels it says, like, the bread is there for our satisfaction, you know, that actually, and I think Pope Benedict said that heaven is going to be this, this timeless moment of supreme satisfaction. in every human, like our humanity's going to be completely complete, you know, in every expression. And it reminds me of, I remember one woman came on one of our healing retreats.

And she had been carrying around, oh, my gosh, her suffering for decades. And she went to confession. And the only way she could express the joy and the freedom that she spiritually felt, but affected her humanity in every way. And sometimes we experience this. Sometimes we don't. We feel nothing, but we have just as much grace. We can't tame that. But there are moments, I believe, where,

the spiritual crosses over into the human and we cannot but contain it. Next minute we look out the window and she's doing cartwheels in our front yard. Come on. Literally confession to cartwheels. But I think it testifies to a very, I think we can also separate them so far that they become enemies to another. You know, if I experience something deeply, spiritually and it touches my emotions or I have to be super cautious or I'm extremely emotional and get caught up on that and forget the spiritual. We're called for a healthy waiting of both. That's it.

that we're human beings, spirit and body, and then God wants a flourishing in both of those realms. And at times, you know, our spirit doesn't feel it or our body doesn't feel it. And we praise him still. I think that's important that faith remains the same. And sometimes God can allow us to go through times of like less feeling in order to strengthen our faith. And other times, yeah, God blesses our feeling and emotions. And praise be God for that. But I think to worry and to try and determine it and get caught up in the expressions can limit us in our worship.

But if we freely receive, then we can freely give it away. So I would say, yeah, it's kind of, yeah, to be open to both. And I think the most important thing is that we're asking the Lord, what is he doing here? And permitting him to move and pray in us, maybe in ways that we don't anticipate he will. Yeah. And just the power of talking, we have a priest who loves to tell us to tell Jesus all about it. So even in that moment when you're looking at people, because I have those moments too where, yeah, you're just looking at other people and you're like, oh, this feels so inauthentic or something. I'm sitting there judging them with my thoughts.

And it's like, okay, first of all, it's not even good to judge them. Like, don't know what their intention is. But then also to be like, okay, Lord, like, what's going on in my own heart here? And why am I resistant to that or why am I questioning that or why am I, why have been hurt by that? I know for myself it was more of, yeah, a number of years ago. Yeah, just going through a real, just difficult season anteriorly. And, you know, all these sisters would talk about the cross. all the time and the power of the cross, obviously, it's so powerful. The cross is like central

to our faith and, you know, and sisters take it as part of their religious titles. And sister took, you know, of the suffering bridegroom as her title. And I was like, you know, that's so beautiful. That's so good for her. But I was struggling. I was really struggling just with the cross and all the suffering I was seeing and was having to wrestle interiorly, even though I know this is my faith. This is what I professed to believe. But it was in that struggle and bringing that struggle to the Lord. so much fruit has come because, you know, eventually I just worked up the courage just to be really real with the Lord and to talk with different priests about that struggle too. And I'll never forget, you know, hearing a priest preach about the cross one day in his homily. And it was just like,

the word like hit my heart and it was like the flood of tears came. And I'm not somebody who expresses emotion very easily and get uncomfortable with it. But, you know, I couldn't help it. And afterwards, I talked to the priest and I was like, Father, I'm just struggling to understand like, our good father could allow Jesus to die on the cross, how he could watch his son die on the cross for us. And this is years of living the faith, you know, in religious life. And I was still just wrestling. And the priest, he was so wise, I just looked up at him,

and he didn't say anything, and he just had tears in his eyes. And like, in those tears, I saw a glimpse of our father's love, of our father's love that, you know, doesn't rejoice in seeing us suffer. He's not like, okay, suffering, more suffering for my people. No. Like he's God who suffers with us, a God who suffers for us. And who sometimes when we don't hear like these audible answers and prayer, like sometimes his response is the gift of presence. That he's with us and our sufferings, that he's with us and our questions, our doubts, our struggles, that he's there and available. And yeah, that that's often the response. Our heart most needs. I think that's beautiful. And I think it really highlights not to be afraid of our humanity. Yeah.

And actually how much our humanity is engaged in worship of God? Like you think about the Catholic Mass. I mean, the amount of times we sit, we stand, we kneel. Like there's a real invitation there to like really link our spirit with our body movements.

You know, I remember when someone was giving a testimony about how they literally came back to the faith and converted after they watched St. John Paul II to pray the Mass. And it was like just the way he folded his hands, the way he moved around, the way he intentionally worshipped God, not just by words and by mind, but actually by body and allowing our humanity, our spirit to unite,

conveys the sacred. And I think as Catholic, especially when we know the mass and the mass past, we can very easily just go into the motions. But being aware that actually every active move in my body can honor and give praise and glory to God, then you realize, you're like, I'm just not here in spirit. My whole body is involved in this prayer. And actually, nothing's being excluded, that I can worship God in the way that, yeah, I bow and I kneel with intentionality, that it's all one and the same prayer. Yeah.

Now, I have to ask, we have Cardinal George Pell up here in the painting. Yeah. You knew him? He looks great. He's very luminous. Didn't he great? Did you know him? I did, yes.

He had such a love for families and being present to families in church life. So in Sydney, he would, yeah, whenever he'd have a free night. Actually, it started because my mum, when Cardinal Pell was coming from Melbourne to Sydney. She wrote to him thinking he's probably getting thousands of letters. But she just wrote to him. I was, I think, 13 years old and just said, you know, dear Bishop Pell at that point, she said, you know, welcome to Sydney. We're glad you're here. We're a family, small family of four. If you ever need a meal one night, we're here. That weekend is secretary calls and says, what about Friday night? Well, of course, we went crazy. We tried to pull out all the stops and he really didn't care. But he would come every few months and was really a present. He was kind of like a spiritual uncle to me, like all through, yeah, my teenage years. And then I learned later on, I was like, Cardinal Pell is our uncle. And then. And then I discovered all these families that he would often go to and be with and sit at the family table. And, you know, he'd never talk about church or politics. He was always just interested in what was going on in our lives.

And a good steak and potato was always made him happy. But, yeah, just as such a, it was such a gift to have a presence of someone who was so willing to be publicly, yeah, a herald of truth. And yet, this gentle giant that was present to the person in front of him. So he was a real big part of, yeah, my growing up. And I think my first vocational call came. When I asked him one day, I was like, how can I help you do what you do? And he turned around to me and said, well, get a degree first. Finish high school.

That's important. But he said, whatever you do in life, do not be afraid, my dear. And, you know, those words have just stuck with me my whole lifelong. And even since his passing and his witness in prison in the last years, it was this, yeah, I think it was the father's call through his voice of not to be afraid at every step and turn. But, yeah, a huge impact. And, yeah, I think a lot of Sydney's, faith is living out of his legacy.

I agree. Yeah, I was so moved when I went back to Sydney and saw all these wonderful people. So many priests, religious families that can point back to a moment in which he affirmed them or just was a leader when they needed direction and clarity in life. So, yeah, we have a lot to. One of my favorite stories about Cardinal Pell. I've met him once in an airplane for about 10 seconds. That was it. My dear bishop, Bishop Eugene Hurley.

Do you ever know him? Yeah. Just by name. I loved Bishop Eugene. So he was the bishop that took me to World Youth Day in Rome 2000, and that's when I converted. It was during that trip. And I came home and my mom started meeting with Bishop Hurley

because she thought I had been brainwashed. She was more worried than relieved that her son was now big into Jesus. So I met him briefly. But one of my favorite stories, I was at the knack recently in Rome. And one of the priests said that he, whenever he, whenever he'd, you know, have adoration, he would assign a seminarian to sit next to him. That's fantastic. To poke him when he would inevitably fall asleep and start snoring.

That was so sweet. So that was his job. Your job. That's awesome. I need a sister like that. Exactly. Yeah. Speaking of embracing our humanity, hey?

Yeah. Yeah. You don't go to intentionally sleep. No. But you don't hate yourself when you accidentally do. Yeah. That is the antidote to self-reliance. That is.

Yeah. Get a friend to keep you awake. That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah, we're so blessed in him. So what is your, I mean, your fourth vow is to, you know, what is it again? Dignity. Yes, protect and enhance the sacredness of human life.

Okay, and a big part of this is to help women who are considering an abortion or who have had an abortion. Like, what does that look like? What is this? I know it's not a job that you do, but it must be structured in some way, how you reach out and how you bring in. And so, like, what does that look like? Yeah, that's, yeah, absolutely. That's a great question. It's a lot of tea and cookies. I'm just kidding. It is actually. But yeah, the women come to us, you know, a variety of ways either through, yes, we have brochures that are at the church, but a lot of women, you know, aren't going to necessarily find it there. But some women have found brochures in various places online is a huge way. Like women will type in pregnant, need help. And a whole list of things will come up. information about getting an abortion, but praise God, there are times when a woman sees

Sisters of Life first. And they're usually, you know, just kind of going through the motions and just trying to move and get, find help quickly. And so some women will just make an act of faith, and they'll see that, and they'll come, and they won't even know, like, what to expect. So I think some women are a little shocked when they come to our door. And they see sisters standing there. But, yeah, some come through friends. That's a big way, too, where women once they've received love and that support. Oh my goodness, they're like the best witness. Like they go out there and they're telling women that they're working with

or women at the grocery store, women on the bus, where they can find help. But yeah, so much of our ministry is, yeah, really, as we're saying, like sitting and listening, receiving these women. There's no agenda. They're not filling out all this paperwork. We're not asking for anything. We're just inviting them in.

And again, that's when the tray of tea and, cookies comes out so she can just feel at ease. And, you know, sometimes we just start talking about, you know, just small things, the weather outside or, you know, oh, cute bag there, and just trying to help her feel comfortable, you know, and then inevitably, you know, when we ask, you know, how are you doing? Or tell us a little bit more about how things are going right now. That's when, you know, things will start to unload. And we usually try to, again, because it can be very heavy for her, is she's sharing all these, yeah, things about her heart and her life. And so we'll intersperse it, you know, just try to intersperse it with some lightness so that she can keep just unloading, you know.

That's our hope. We call it emptying the bucket for a woman to just empty out all of it. And it's, there's no, again, it's not like a one-time thing where she comes. Some women maybe will come once and be buoyed up and then they're okay. They're going to continue in their pregnancy, but most of the time, I mean, this, and ongoing for months and months and months of in person on the phone, texting. And then a lot of, you know, women too, sometimes they'll go through periods where they're giving us the silent treatment.

I mean, I used to give my mom, my poor mom, the silent treatment myself, so I know what that's like. But yeah, sometimes they're like, they're so not used to receiving love and support that it's a little scary for them to think, this person actually, can I really believe that they really care about me? And so they'll put up a wall and be silent. And we'll just keep reaching out, hey, like, we're here for you. How's it going?

And if we don't hear anything back, sometimes we'll just be like, sounds like things are a little rough right now. And then sometimes that'll give her the window to enter back in to conversation. But yeah, there's really this attitude to just availability. We're not going anywhere. We're here for you, no matter what you're going through. And even when, you know, we encourage them in something. and then they, you know, choose or feel pressure to the opposite, we're still there.

We're still there to receive her back. You know, even when she feels like she's made the worst mistakes. It's like, our love is not going anywhere. I think I had one woman say almost exactly what you were saying, but she said, being with you or was the first time somebody listened to me and didn't just tell me what to do, you know, and that's crucial to kind of, and that's really, every meeting is a miracle. I remember as a novice the first time I went into one of these meetings.

I was totally overwhelmed. I was like, I mean, just what so many women have suffered in the places they find themselves in was like, yeah, just so confronting to me. And I remember getting out of the meeting and grabbing one of these sisters. I was like, what are we going to do? What are we going to do? Do we start with this problem? Do we start with that problem? Like, where do we go?

And she just looked at me and she said, sister, this woman is not a problem to be fixed. But every single woman that walks through that door is a woman that needs to be loved. So she's like, go back in there and love. And I remember thinking, well, I can do that and then going in there. And it's amazing. It's like, we don't strategize all the problems. Yes, we hear about her fears. and her real legitimate needs.

But actually the most thing that woman needs in that room is to know that someone sees her, sees that she's good, that meaning is still here, that her life matters. And when a woman is convinced of that, suddenly the chaos on the storm, they don't have as much sway in her life anymore.

And suddenly she realizes her goodness, her capacity, and can actually see clearly when someone points that out for her herself. And it's not like we go in there, like solving every problem like heroes, which I kind of thought we were kind of doing. We really go in there to reflect to her,

her goodness. And when she sees that, and has believed in it, especially from another woman, she literally has a capacity to step forward and move in freedom and not fear anymore. Because it's actually fear that is confusing her, fear that is bounding her. And if she can be received in that place and know that she is good, then she knows she can take another step. And that's always a step that is for her and her child.

And it's amazing, you know, I just think of this one young woman we walked with, and we took her out to a cafe, and we talked to her for like four hours. It was like, I threw out all my best lines, like, gave every reason to believe in her good, was not landing. And we got to the end of the conversation and she just said, okay, sisters, well, thanks, thanks for meeting. And we were devastated and it was really worried about her and concerned that she wasn't, she didn't have quite the support or she just wasn't really hearing what we were trying to say, but we couldn't convince her of it. And so we were praying, praying, praying. And we get a call the next day and she tells,

and her voice had completely changed. And we're like, what in the world happened? And she tells this story. She basically was sharing with us how she couldn't dream of telling her parents that She was pregnant. She was a good Catholic girl involved in a church group, like, ticking every Catholic girl box was engaged. Everything was going seemingly right for her. So she was terrified, especially of her dad. She's like, I can't tell my parents. I need to get rid of it to avoid that conversation. So she goes home that night, making the decision not to tell them. Her dad walks in, she breaks down. Can't hold it. Can't hold it in. And her dad, I'm pregnant. And her dad's on the other side of the room and she said,

dad, I'm pregnant. He doesn't say it would. He walks over to the other side of the room, holds her in his arms. Yeah. Oh, good dads. You are a gift. This baby is a gift. Let's do this together. Can we just take a moment of silence for every good dad in the world? Wow. Isn't it? Holy mackerel. I often say that masculinity in its essence is strength on behalf of others. Wow. And he was able to give her that strength and she was able to. Matt, we said that like for four hours in different ways. And it couldn't land. the power of a father's voice to speak truth to a daughter is unparalleled. Go dads. Gosh, the world is starving for good dads.

That's bloody beautiful. So it's, yes, we come alongside and do what we can. But actually, you know what part of our community, we have a co-worker mission where we beg and we lean on the support of lay people, mothers, fathers, doctors, nurses, lawyers, stay-at-home moms across the board help us do this mission because there's actually ways that lay people, people in the world, people in relationship with the people. these women that are in crisis, can access these women and build them up in ways that us as sisters cannot reach.

Yeah. So for us, it's like, yes, we do our part. We meet the women. We do as much as we can. But actually, we have hands and feet in the world of people like yourself and your family mat that are like walking with these women day in and day out that we really are, that stand in awe of and say, please help us because we rely on you to go places we can't. And even this past two weeks, we're now walking with two college students, not because

we met them on the street, not because we gave them a pamphlet, but because another student in classroom, they shared with them, they were pregnant, didn't know what to do, and that student refused to step out of their life and said, I believe in you, I'm with you, let's do this together. Life saved. That wasn't a nun walking by giving a sticker. That was a student sitting next to a friend that said, I'm not tapping out, I'm with you, I know you're capable, let's do this together.

And that's the kind of resurgence of masculinity and friendship that we need to see in the world, that it's not just up to the sisters and the brothers and the priest, which is important. And we have our role. But this is a movement at the church where everybody is needed, actually. Now, so the fourth vow has to do with the dignity of the human person. Obviously, that's going to mean meeting with and helping and supporting women prior to, or perhaps, God forbid, after an abortion. But what about things like euthanasia?

Do you work with people who are considering that? Absolutely. Not as much of the direct way at the moment, but, you know, as sisters, our first work is prayer. So for us, we're really entrusted with, okay, acts are important and activism is exactly the Christian way. We must put action to our belief. But first and foremost, it's this reality that there is a spirit of contempt in the world, that just existing life is under threat. And especially life that is in pain, life that is suffering. There's this spirit of lie that says your life is only worth something if you can do something.

So as sisters, like our first role, our first contribution is the gift of prayer to actually pray and to fast so that every person, whether they are the college student questioning the meaning of their life or they're on their dying deathbed or their, yeah, a middle-aged woman or man going through a crisis wondering whether they should just end their lives, that actually there is a place of prayer here that can go so much further than any of our outreach. And that is praying that every human person can receive this truth, that they are beloved and a maiden God's image and likeness, and they are sacred at every moment of every moment of that. their life, not just the efficient moments. So as sisters, we, yeah, prayer is our first accompaniment in that way. And we call our of a culture of faith to be revived. But you see this battleground now shifting also into the realm of euthanasia. It's like, it's not just the woman who's pregnant in crisis questioning the meaning and value of her life.

It's, yeah, it's the young now diagnosed with a chronic illness that is like, what's the point anymore? And do we have a voice in those places that can say those same truths that we say to the woman of like your life still matters. God has a plan. You are not abandoned or forgotten. And there is something redemptive in this. This is not the end of your story. That actually that is a place that as a church we need to run to now. And we're seeing it in our missions, like even people that we walk with, like faithful Catholics now bringing, being confronted with this question, or Catholics with their parents now considering this question. Euthanasia is upon us. And

I don't think we need to get as any more creative or strategize newly, but actually apply those same truths that we're speaking to our young at conferences need to be spoken to the hospital room on the bed. That's right. That we're going to the woman having cup of tea in our convent needs to go now to the lonely person living on their own, that this is the same gospel truth that is now needed with the chronically ill. Those who are in pain, those are questioning their lives. Yeah, you never know what the person sitting next to you is battling with, whether you're on the airplane or on the college campus encountering. I mean, there's so many young people that are wondering, what's the point of their life? Does their life even?

have meaning, do they matter? And you can see it in their eyes when you speak, again, like sister's sharing these simple truths of you are good. Like you matter, you're important to God. He created you with a purpose and meaning, your life has meaning no matter what you're going through. You can see them, drink it in, as if they've never heard it before. And I was just thinking, sister can finish the story because she ended up meeting with this young woman. But we were at prayer at one of our convents when the doorbell rang. And again, we weren't expecting anybody at that time. So we thought, oh, maybe, you know, sometimes college students or young adults will come and join us for prayers. So we're like, oh, maybe they got the day mixed up or the time mixed up. And so one of our sisters went to

answer it. And there was a young woman there with her like motorcycle helmet. It was so great. She had never seen her before. And the sister, like, I think was just trying to like be reverent to prayer going on and everything. So she was like, hi, welcome. Like, come on in. Meanwhile, this girl didn't really know where she was showing up to. So the sister was just like, you know, we're in prayer right now. Why don't you just come with me? And so she sat at the back of the chapel with her like motorcycle helmet. And then the sister was like, I'll just follow up with her after prayer. So the sister went to talk to her after prayer. And I'll let sister Mary Grace continue the story from there. But basically, yeah, had really been struggling to know the meaning of her life and had told her sister. And her sister was

like, oh, they're sisters of life. Like you should go and see them. So she just got on her motorcycle and came and rang our doorbell. But I know that conversation was just super blessed. Totally. Yeah, and just how crippling lies that we believe can, yeah, and when we believe in a life for so long, it can become almost like an identity. You know, if we have an experience of negativity or something in our youth that she was testifying to, like a feeling inadequate or bad, and living out of that lie years after years after years,

and then you get into a difficult moment and then identifying with the lie and all you see is bad. And it's like, well, bad needs to end. And it was just getting so confusing. And, you know, we didn't say anything new. It was like, you are good, you are sacred. And she was crying, thinking, I've never heard that. So what happens? So the prayer ends.

She's sitting up the back with a motorcycle home. She's now weaving. You invite her over to, like, another room to talk to her? Exactly. Yeah. And we just pull out the teen coffee, the secret weapon. Yeah. There's nothing in that tea.

It's normal tea. All these women are crying. Oh, it's great. Yeah. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, that's a good point. Well, that's lovely. So you spoke to her.

Yeah, and it's like giving people a place to be safe. Yeah. And safe not just to feel good feelings, but safe to like bring the mess up, bring the darkness up. And giving them permission to, and we do this in our own lives too. You know, it's with the Lord. It's like allowing these things to come forward. And then the power of when someone else is with you in that and doesn't judge you on that, and then still sees them more. Yes.

That you are good, that there is hope that your life does have meaning. And you may not experience it or feel it circumstantially. but the faith of someone else to see that in your life can save a life, honestly. And it was, yeah, it was amazing. I mean, even in that conversation by the end of it, but we weren't even talking about the faith, but one of her last comments, after telling her about her goodness and believing in it for her until she believes in it herself,

she literally then responded, not Catholic, not even Christian, and said, Sister, I just want Mass. I want Eucharist, and we're like, whoa, what is in that tea? But to me, I was like, it testified to actually. Beneath all the darkness and the mess is this, the human heart right now is hungering for God. Desperate for God. Desperate for these truths. Desperate for union with him. And actually, if we give each other the time and space to hear the pain for the pain to come out, the pain to be spoken to, to actually be admitted to, to live in reality, not only does it come out, but it's an opportunity to see what's underneath that. And what is underneath that is something beautiful and good. And when we literally do something as simple of like, I have time for you, I'm available. to you. And I'm not judging you. I'm with you. I believe in your goodness. From the person struggling with euthanasia to the crisis pregnancy, to the one questioning their meaning,

there is a power to truth being spoken to each other. You know, there's a rule, I was just thinking we have the communion of the saints. Yeah. Then we must have the isolation of the damned, right? That God is a communion. We are called to holy communion. We talk of the communion of the saints. I think what we desperately long for is communion. And I don't know. I'm, I don't know. I don't much about the demonic, but I would think that they're pretty interested in isolating us, sifting us as wheat, as it were, keeping us removed. Yeah, so what a beautiful way you could get to bring these women into communion. And all the things that they are convinced would keep them out of communion. You get to just smile at them and go, oh, darling, no, it's fine. Yeah,

yeah. And a priest actually said it to us recently. We went on this retreat and it was so powerful. I mean, we were literally hearing stories, like walking with women from 18-year-olds to 88-year-olds. And I tell you, Matt, it's the same lies we're all battling with. You know, the lies that I'm struggling with on one day, I'm like, oh, my gosh, this woman's been struggling with her a whole life. Oh, my goodness, 18-year-old is facing it. And it just is amazing how much healing God leaves and entrusts to human encounters, too. Yes. Yes, in the sacraments.

But he just entrust so much to us that he invites us to be cooperators in his vineyard, that he actually entrusts, like, very real graces in. relationship with people when we're both seeking the Lord and being real and loving each other, intentionally trying to listen to each other. It's not just small talk. This is like healing happening in our midst. This is the kingdom being shared amongst hearts. But I remember we were sharing the graces of the treat with the priest. And it was really beautiful. He had a real sorrow in his heart. He said, oh, he said, isn't it a sorrow that it takes, you know, once a year for the Sisters of Life to fly in for these things to happen? And it broke my heart

at first. And then, but he was like, you know, what if our parishes became places of encounter like this? where you didn't have to wait once every three years until the sisters fly in and have this half an hour meeting which is good and intentional and we praise God for every bit of it. But to him it was like this call to like, this should be normal and Catholic living. It should be normal that we can turn to each other

in times of desperation and difficulty and find safe refuges. So I think it's just, and I was like, may my convent be a place where I can turn to my sister and not have to wait for these one-off moments. So I think it was just so eye-opening and a sorrow but then a real call to hope of like, wow, we can really help each other live better.

And it doesn't have to be massive, big projects all the time. It could be just catching someone at the end of church, noticing the woman crying in a pew, noticing someone sitting on their own and sitting next to them and inviting them for a meal. Like the simplest of things can have the most radical impact in our lives. And God is that close. He is that mixed up in the ordinary. And we have so much capacity to walk with each other. And we don't need a habit to do that.

That's it. Yeah. Well, so many, so you said earlier, and I think this is true, that many women are flocking to the convents or wish to be at this point, at least in comparison to the 80s and 90s. So what's going on? That's a great question. And are you like batting them away? How is this? Oh, praise God.

I think, you know, more and more, I see this in young people on college campuses, especially. Like, again, they are thirsting for more. I mean, God. Yeah. God only knows, like, who, yeah, who he's inviting to the various vocations, you know, and he chooses, like, that's a grace, that's an invitation that has to come from him. But I do think more young women are, yeah, just being given these opportunities, whether it's retreats or mentors in the face or Bible studies,

where they're having an opportunity to really listen to their hearts and hear those deeper desires. So I think you do notice that trend of more and more people are asking the question. question of where am I called to give my law? Like where is God inviting me to live my love? You know? And some, you know, might think, okay, it's marriage and family and then find out, oh, it's a call to the comment. Others might think, oh, religious life is so beautiful. And then as they're discerning, really realized, like, no, actually the Lord's calling me to marriage and family. But he's so pleased by the openness, you know. And so I think I've just noticed that more and more openness of young people who are like, we're not made for this world.

Like, we're made for heaven and what's my path there? And what's going to most help me, like, get there? Is it a human spouse next to me who we're running alongside each other, helping each other toward heaven, you know, or is it through, like, religious life and through the community of sisters or of brothers? Yeah. Yeah, that's beautiful, sister. You're reminding me, too.

We were just walking around our lake in our neighborhood recently, and I walked past this older couple. Just as we pass, children like elderly couples, they speak a little bit louder than they think they're. speaking. So this woman wax her husband. I see them in the corner of my eye walking past and she led over to him as we passed and she said, see, I told you we should have gone to church today. And I was like, oh my goodness, God is not your critic. He's your creator. But it is interesting. It makes me think as you ask that question, I, you know, every public system is a public invitation

for every soul towards divine intimacy. You know, that we don't just live the habit for ourselves. You know, we're in a way, we're asked to be a gift to the church to remind every soul, that they're actually created. You and I, yes, in heaven forever, but even now heaven has been made possible here, that you are called to divine intimacy with God. And I think in some ways, God is calling more people

because he recognizes we're at a time in the world where there needs to be more visible witness of God. And not only of God, but of reawakening the human heart that you hunger for God and that is good and you're not satisfied in this world. But there is an answer to that. And there is a reason why you hunger, there is a reason why you long, that you long for more

And yes, it's an eternity, but you don't have to wait for that to begin. Divine intimacy is the invitation for every human soul. And so I think also, too, there's an element of like, God wants more public witnesses to remind everyone of the more that they're called to. I'm remembering, we were meeting with this young woman and she was like not practicing any faith and was a little bit like anti-Christian, but somehow by a miracle, there she was in our parlor, you know, having the tea and cookies with us. And one of our co-workers was there also in the meeting. And it was really, it was a hard, a hard meeting. This woman was sharing tremendous sufferings. And honestly, I just went to the chapel after that and wept and wept over what I was hearing. But at the end of the meeting, this coworker, I think, was just trying to help this young woman connect dots of different things. And she was like, you know, didn't you notice she was driving this young woman home? And she asked her, she was like, what did you notice about being there with the sisters, you know? And she was like, you know, and she was like, you know, like, it was so peaceful, it was so joyful, you know, and she was trying to help her, yeah, realize maybe why that was, like, God. But she was like, did you notice, like, sister was wearing a ring there? You know, she was trying to approach it from that lens, but it was just so

funny. But the young one was like, yeah, I saw she was wearing a ring, and she was like, what did you think about it? But the coworker wasn't thinking that, okay, maybe this non-Christian woman wouldn't know that, like, we make vows to Jesus as religious women anyways. And this young girl just goes, she must have a really great husband. That's all I can figure out. The coworker was like, because you were joyful? Yes, because we were joyful. But she must have a really great husband. Wow. Sitting there and the coworker was able to explain. Actually, they give their whole lives to God. They're married to God. You know, it's probably a lot for this young woman to take in. But I just loved that. I was like, she must have a really great husband. I'm like, yes, we do. Yeah. It's beautiful. We were in

Whole Foods recently and we came out and my mom. daughter said of the cashier, dad, she must have been Christian because she was so happy. Isn't that a lovely thing? Isn't it wonderful how the old stereotype that Hollywood had voiced on us or would have us believe is like, and it's the opposite. It's a dark place out there. And those who know Christ and love him and know that they're loved, there is a joy there that is totally different to what I'm used to seeing in people, just this kind of, you know, just exhausted and zombie-like kind of thing. Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, we see it on a lot of campuses that we go to too, too. It's getting harder and harder to interact with the young people because they're plugged in. They're like always somewhere else. But, you know, I've never seen someone plugged in and smiling. Like, it's really interesting. So we're trying to find, like, new creative ways. Yeah, to engage them and they kind of, you know, walk past very difficult. And we're just trying to have a conversation and just to be with people and let them know about community on campus.

And just recently, yeah, one sister was handing out stickers. Actually, we're in California, and we're handing out a sticker, and this woman looked at it, and it said something like, you know, you are irreplaceable and chosen by God. And she looked at it, and she looked like she was reading a language. Like, she was just blankface, and she was like, what in the world? And she began to share that she was a student just moved there from Korea, like three years ago. And I didn't know anyone on campus yet. I'd never met anyone. It's been three weeks so far.

And she looked at it and she said, oh, sister, I believe I believe I can do good things. But she said, I don't believe that I am good. I was like, wow. How on was? What a huge shift. Absolutely. Yeah, shift where she was like, yeah, I do good things, but believing that I am good. She's like, I've just never heard that before.

And I began to talk to her about it and just talk about her sacredness, which was all just like new news to her. And then finally, she was like, well, I'm agnostic. And I was like, okay, well, we don't have to end the conversation. So we keep talking. And then she did have to get to class. And just before she was going away, she turned around and she said, sister, is there like community or somewhere I can sign up to hear more about that? Oh, come on. Absolutely. Come on over.

Focus missionaries like community. But it was like something came alive in her heart. Yeah. And I think these realities are in us. We know we're made for communion. We know we're made for relationship. We want to be connected. But unless someone reveals that to us or reminds us of it or resuscitates us to this truth,

it's so easy to get caught up in the culture that is dividing and separating and lonely. But hearts still have that truth in them. And sometimes they just need a little. invitation or activation to realize that that's what they're made for. What's your advice to the woman watching right now that's discerning the convent? Yeah. That's hard, right? Because you don't know her.

It's just her. Who knows what country? Yeah. Yeah. I'm discouraged. Yeah, that young woman out there that Jesus is, he's for you. He's for you. And he, yeah, cares about you, your future.

his plan for you more than you do. So I'd encourage her, again, to be honest, be yourself with him in prayer and express your desires, but also to have the courage to ask him, ask him how he's inviting you, and to listen, to wait for his response. And he'll probably surprise you in the ways that he gives it, and it might not be there in prayer, but through your encounters, through the doors that are opened for you, yeah, that he's speaking. He's speaking and he has a plan. But yeah, I just think that phrase like, Jesus is for you is so important. He's not looking for you to be miserable. You being miserable doesn't mean

like holiness or something like that on the opposite. Like he wants your full joy, but that'll come through a gift of self and it'll take courage. It'll take courage to go out of yourself and trust. Yeah. That's a great word. I remember when I was discerning, I just kept asking God. I was like, what do you want? What do you want? What do you want? Tell me you real. I'll do it. Like I got to a point where I was like, I'll do anything. You know, become a hermit. I'll get married. I just was like, I thought I was totally surrendered. I was like, Lord, like, what do you want? And, you know, it came down to this moment in Eucharistic adoration's of prayer. It was like, heart to heart with the Lord. And I really felt like in the gospel when Jesus turns around to

his disciples, the two following him and he says, what are you looking for? And, you know, I realized for years, I was like shunning my heart and just trying to find out what God's will was. You know, as if my humanity needed to be suppress so the Lord could speak. And it was such a healing moment, actually a moment of freedom where I was like, he wants to know what I want. He wants to know what I desire. I can bring that forward in this conversation. So that to me was just like this moment of freedom of like, yes, seek the Lord's will, but do not be afraid to bring your own. And that is a conversation wherever he leads that will not be wasted. And God will honor that and bless that and show you the next steps. It's amazing, isn't it? The first words of the father in

Genesis and our blessed Lord and John are two questions, you know, like where are you? What are want what are you looking for. And if we would just take that question seriously, that would be a beautiful thing to bring to prayer. Like, what do I want? And then just go for it. Yeah. No wrong answer. Well, there might be, but you're not wrong in expressing it and, you know. Yeah. And it's the Lord's desire to have a conversation with us. You don't have a question unless you want a conversation, you know, that he actually doesn't want to just dictate or direct or send us off. He wants to be with us. He wants to live with us. He wants to hear from us. Yeah. I remember when I was just turning the priesthood, I got to the point where I really decided that I was really a, I was,

I was running away from something more than choosing something. And it was a really tough thing to be honest about, you know, I really thought that every aspect of me married, I would be bad at, whether that be father or lover or provider or I would just suck at all of them. And I didn't know how not to, you know and I was I was really that's not a good reason you know like to join the priesthood so was there something similar in that like is that something you counsel women in is that's a great question that's amazing Matt the fact that you could like name that I mean that's that's huge that's what we're trying to encourage young people in who come you know in our seeking and we often will share like again it's a a freedom for you know that we're free to give the gift of ourselves is so important

And it is important to look at those areas where, yes, there can be natural fears that come up in any vocation. That's going to be normal. But yeah, it's important to check our hearts and to talk to somebody else about that as well. Like, am I running from something? You know, thinking, okay, well, this will be like the safe place for me to go and live my life, live my love. But the Lord, yeah, he's not afraid of our fears aren't a problem for him. Yeah. He likes to address him.

Yeah. and usually calls us out, but I'm like, frankly, I look at my whole life and I'm like, oh my gosh, often the Lord, and this isn't, I'm not saying this as a blanket statement, like he always calls us to the places we're most afraid of. But when I look back over my life, I mean, for sure, I was like, I remember being in middle school, high school, I was terrified of public speaking. Oh my gosh, like to get up in front of the class. And then there was like this invitation to spend a year as a missionary with this group called Net Ministries. And we gave talk. all the time.

I did that. Okay, look at that. Okay, look at that. We'll be in the States or? In the States. In the States. Yes. But as you know, Matt, that that's like public speaking all the time.

So that was never something I would dream, but it was like when it's like when the Lord invites and he gives the grace. Yeah, it brings us from that fear to faith and to trust him. But I think that's the truth there too. It's like none of us are, we're not equipped for religious life. Yes. We're not equipped for marriage. The question is what is God calling me to? And how is he created me to love?

Yeah. So it's like, Lord, where are you calling me and how have you created me to love? Two wonderful questions in this. And it's, if I judged my discernment off what I was capable of, I wouldn't be sitting here. You know, so it's actually putting the weight back on Jesus' shoulders and looking to him and asking him, how have you created me? And the me that is me and how I'm loved. And what are you actually calling me to? And allowing the question to be asked of the Lord as well and not just be the one to answer all the questions, you know?

Yeah. If people want to learn more about the Sisters of Life, where would you point them? We still have a website. Yes. Most things are there, I think. Yeah, SistersofLife.org. Okay. Yeah, and I think you can get just about anywhere after that.

Yeah, it is funny. Like, back in the, you know, 2000 around that time as I was discerned in the priesthood, you know, like, you had orders like throwing themselves at you. I'm, yeah. But not today. Like, I feel like today, I love that there's a discernment. My point was there was a lot of these religious orders that had given up the casick or had given up the habit and they were really dying out. And it was always very unattractive to me when it felt like an order was like, please save our dying diocese or our dying order, you know. So I remember when I chatted with the friars of the renewal, I went and stayed on a come and see in London.

And I was used to that. I was used to like, thank you. Please join us. And he's like, well, that doesn't sound to me like you're cool to this kind of thing. and that was nice. It's refreshing. Well, that would be like, yeah, that's what young man

who's like pursuing a woman, you know, and it's like, born himself at her and like, I really need you. Please save me. Yeah. That's not my job. She's probably going to run away.

Yeah. Yeah. That's good. Because it is. It's not a matter of recruitment. It's a matter of listening to the call. Yeah. You know, and reverencing that because God is calling. We just need to give him the mic. Like, let him speak, you know,

let him enter into these conversations in your prayer. Like, let the Lord. let the Lord speak to you, give him time for that, actually allocate time in your day to pray. Like, are we listening to what God's calling us to? And he'll do the calling and giving the grace. But if we can nurture a culture of listening to God and asking these questions and being asked by him, then we're not going to, we're not, God's not there to like throw us, you know, in a direction we didn't anticipate or put a detour in there. He's going to lead us. He's going to lead us. Yeah. Sister Magnificate, Sister Mary Grace, you're both very beautiful. I'm so glad that you exist.

Really, really glad that you exist. Good idea, God. It's funny, you know, sometimes you can get a bit down. It's interesting, you know, like you have a, because we all have a view of the world, right? Like, this is the world that exists in my mind, and I know it's tainted and it's imperfect, but we think we've got it covered and we have opinions about how things are going. And then you'll go to seek, say, or some big conference. And you meet someone that you didn't know existed yesterday.

And then you go, oh, the world's better than I thought it was. It could even be better than this then. So I'm glad you exist. Any final thoughts as we wrap up? Well, we're glad that you exist. Thank you. I appreciate it. Yeah, thanks.

Your ministry is so, yeah, powerful for the church. Yeah. For people to hear these. He wants it to be. Yeah. Isn't that beautiful? And thank you for like, yeah, building a culture of conversation again. I think we lost that.

We miss that. Yeah. So it's beautiful that you make that available because it's healing for all of us. Yeah, to let conversation be normal again. Yeah, to actually be able to speak to each other. Well, this is nice. I mean, like, I force my guests to put their phone. anyway and talk to me.

It's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's good. All right. This is great. What was it going to say? He's going to say something.

Any last words? Oh, that's what I was going to say. You have some lovely talks online that are so beautiful. Perhaps you do too. I don't know. Yeah. And we'll be more. Yeah.

We have a whole team that speaks. All right. So people should be just typing in Sisters of Life on YouTube and Sister Mary Grace to hear some of your lovely talks that you've given that have blessed so many people. Yeah. Yeah. And this is great witnesses. And again,

it's like the power of testimony to God's mercy. The fact that no one is, yeah, too far gone to receive his love. I think it's just such an important word. And that's what we seek to testify in all of our talks to through stories and our own lives. And you're right. There's a lot of news going on. There's a lot of darkness. But actually, if we can tune into the good news and get used to giving it away,

hearts will revive. if they need to hear it and we need to keep speaking. So thank you, Matt. Glory to Jesus Christ. Thank you.