Pints With Aquinas - Will the Internet Kill Protestantism? The Age of Online Evangelism (Keith Nester) | Ep. 534

Episode Date: July 23, 2025

Keith Nester is a former Protestant pastor who spent over 20 years in ministry before becoming Catholic in 2017. Now a full-time evangelist, author, and speaker, he helps others navigate the convert��s journey through his book The Convert’s Guide to Roman Catholicism and his YouTube channel and podcast Catholic Feedback. Keith leads Down to Earth Ministries and brings a bold, relatable voice to the faith—all from his home base in Cedar Rapids, Iowa. 🍺 Want to Support Pints With Aquinas? 🍺 Get episodes a week early, score a free PWA beer stein, and join exclusive live streams with me! Become an annual supporter at 👉 https://mattfradd.locals.com/support 💵 Show Sponsors:  👉 Seven Weeks Coffee – Use promo code MATT for up to 25% of your first subscription order + claim your free gift: https://sevenweekscoffee.com/matt 👉  Exodus 90 – Join Exodus 90 on August 15 for St. Michael's Lent: https://exodus90.com/matt 👉  Truthly – The Catholic faith at your fingertips: https://www.truthly.ai/ 👉 Hallow – The #1 Catholic prayer app: https://hallow.com/mattfradd  💻 Follow Me on Social Media: 📌 Facebook: https://facebook.com/mattfradd 📸 Instagram: https://instagram.com/mattfradd 𝕏 Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/Pints_W_Aquinas 🎵 TikTok: https://tiktok.com/@pintswithaquinas 👕 PWA Merch – Wear the Faith! Grab your favorite PWA gear here: https://shop.pintswithaquinas.com

Pines with Aquinas is brought to you by Truthly, which is a ground-breaking Catholic AI app built to help you know, live and defend the Catholic faith. Start your seven-day free trial today when you download Truthly on the App Store. Has the internet killed Protestants? I think that if we in the Catholic space think our job is to use the internet to destroy Protestantism, we're never going to succeed. Instead, show them how being a Catholic is going to make you a saint. We don't have these divergent issues on things like whether or not you can lose your salvation or justification

by faith or a faith alone. If you want to know what the Church teaches on a given subject, you can find the answer. And every Catholic has to agree with that when it comes down to the dogmas of the Christian faith. But do you think with the online fighting, we sometimes overplay the divergence within Protestantism and the unity within Catholicism? Wow, that's a great question. Thank you so much for watching Pines with Aquinas.

Before we get into the interview, I'd like to ask you to please consider subscribing. Over 58% of people who watch this show regularly are still not subscribed, so please do it. It's a quick, free, easy way to support the channel. We really appreciate it. It's so good to have you back on the show. Thank you for agreeing. Thank you for having me, Matt. I have to tell you, I can't go anywhere without several people coming up to me saying, that interview that you did with Matt on Pines with Aquinas has changed my life. Oh, come on. I'm dead serious. I have never seen a reaction to a video that I've been a part of more than, and it's not just people going, oh, that was fun to watch.

Right. It's people whose lives were changed, Matt. They were converted. I've had so many people tell me that even to this, it's been over a year since we recorded that. And people continue to come up to me every men's conference, every parish mission, every time I go somewhere, it's that video changed my life, brought me into the church. So thank you for doing that. I mean, it's an honor. I was the conduit. It was you and your beautiful wisdom and passion for the faith, I'm sure, that set people on fire. What kind of stories are you hearing when they say they're just converting?

Or they're converting. It's a lot of people who were thinking about Catholicism and our story just, it just intersected with them in a way that was powerful. I mean, I just had Mike Pantile down, do an interview for my channel, and he said the same thing. He said, my wife and I watched that video so many times, and she actually sent me an email telling me, his wife did. His wife, Karen? Yes, telling me this, and I've just been hearing that over and over, and it has to do with conversions.

Yeah. Praise God. Which is so cool because I think when we first start these things, it's a lot about conversions, conversions. But then I think sometimes we can think, well, we can talk about other stuff too. Yeah. Or we wonder, is this even having a real life impact? Yeah.

Mike's great. Mike does a really good job. For those who haven't heard of him, Mike Pantile, I've had him on the show before. People should go check out his channel. He does a really good job at speaking about masculinity, but in like a calm, charitable, loving, I mean, he's full throated in his approach. Don't get me wrong, but he's just a really good

dude. And he's a humble guy too. So after we finished our interview, we went to our gym. We have a Catholic gym in our town that we go to St. Michael barbell club. It's awesome. And Mike, Mike knows the owner of that gym through online stuff. So Mike went down there and did he do his classic deadlift? He did, he broke the, he walked in and he saw the, the markers on the wall that had the numbers of the record. And he's like, okay, well it was 700, I got to do 710.

And he did it twice. I'm like, yeah, whatever. Or 705, I don't know what it was. It was something like that. He's a strong dude. Yeah, but it was great. So thank you for, cause there's a lot of stories like that based on our last great. So thank you for yeah for because there's a lot of stories like that

Based on our last show so thank you know it is amazing just how I mean Thank in a way. Thank God for YouTube that allows this to go far and wide I had some other woman on my show a couple of years ago And she said that she was doing street preaching in some Asian country If memory serves and that people kept coming up to her there, saying, I just saw you on Pines with a Quince. Isn't that nuts? But it does make you realize, I need to not screw this up, at least intentionally. I have to be on guard against myself so that the things that we're putting out there are actually

beneficial for souls and that help them come into relationship with Christ and the church. And I want to try, please, God, allow me, and I'm sure you have the same prayer, and hopefully every YouTuber does, don't let me get in my own way. Let me just point to you and the church. That's the name of the game with this internet stuff. It's so easy to get in your own way, both from a tactical standpoint and also just from a spiritual standpoint because we're flawed human beings. We have egos, we have pride, we have insecurities, and nothing brings that out in a more profound way than the internet does or even in a more simple way than the internet does.

Sometimes it's profound in that we say, oh, I made a really bad argument that wasn't, you know, nuanced enough or wasn't deep enough. And then sometimes it's just simple, stupid things like, hey, your hair looks stupid, idiot, you know? And you go, why are people thinking about that? Yeah. So we have to, we have to always remember what is our purpose? What is our goal with what we're doing?

And the good and the bad thing about YouTube is you can do anything you want. And oftentimes the battle is over what we really want. Yeah. People talk about audience capture. Yeah. Have you struggled with that in your own history of making videos or at least became aware? Oh, wow. I don't want to fall into that. Absolutely. It's it's I struggle with it constantly because There are so many things that you can think about in the in this internet space Who is my audience? Am I speaking to non-catholics? Am I speaking to Catholics? Am I speaking to people who are thinking about becoming Catholic and the reality is The answer is probably yes so when you put out content that isn't

very, very narrow in scope, you're gonna draw lots of different people, and some are part of your audience, and some are just sort of drive-bys. And sometimes it's the drive-bys that are the ones that hurl the most because they're like, hey, I don't really like this, blah, and you have to go, well, you're not my target audience. Yeah. Yeah. But when we hear that criticism, sometimes we might be tempted to go, oh, well, if I'm getting a lot of criticism that my arguments are too low tier or that they're too over my head, then we might be tempted to change our approach based on those comments when really what we need to do is stick with what the Lord put on our hearts in the first place.

Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, yeah. Well, and then you've gone from... Do you still do the rosary crew? Every day. Okay, you still do that? Over five years now. Look, I'm all for praying the rosary every day, but have you ever got to a point where you're like, all right, I'd like to just pray the rosary with my wife without a thousand people watching me? Or no, because you feel called to do it.

Well, yes, I have. And that's something that I wrestle with too is there are days when I just go, I don't wanna do this in front of other people. And so what I try to do in those situations is do another rosary that's not in front of other people. Because sometimes it's hard to really focus on prayer when I'm also running a live stream with

three monitors and I'm on X, I'm on Instagram, I'm on five Facebook pages, I'm on YouTube, people are throwing comments at me and, you know, my dog's upstairs barking at the Amazon guy and, you know, it's like, okay. So I have struggled with that a little bit, but I've never struggled with it after it's, after I'm done. It's like this, the struggle to do it sometimes is there, but once I've done it, I never go, man, that was a disaster. Good. Yeah, no, I think back to that audience capture idea.

I think that, you know, if people are watching right now and they have a YouTube channel, I think it's important that you, that that question bothers you. I think if you thought to yourself, no, why would anyone even be concerned about only putting out videos that they're tribe likes? If you're not even aware that that's a thing,

then you might be too far gone. But I think it's always gotta be this tension. I think so. And if you listen to people who are really, really successful at YouTube, sometimes you get contradictory advice. Sometimes you get the advice, especially when you're first starting out,

it's all about, okay, know your audience, give your audience what they want, narrow it down to a specific niche of content and be that expert in that field. And then other times you get advice that just says, forget all about the audience, just do what you love, be authentic, be real, you know? And sometimes those two things don't match up.

That's totally true. I gotta be honest, I'm definitely more of the second category. Just be yourself. I'm sure you're the same, but I get multiple emails a day from people asking to be on the show or telling me that they've got an author

they want on the show. And I don't take any suggestions anymore because there's just too much. So rather, instead of having someone who might bring in a bigger crowd, I'd rather talk to my mate, Keith, who also brought in a great crowd last time. But I'd rather just talk to the people I wanna talk to.

Yeah, that is a great way to look at it, I think. It's just really hard. And you're far less likely to burn out if you're doing this because, That is a great way to look at it, I think. It's just really hard. You're far less likely to burn out if you're doing this because I was legitimately excited to have Keith in the studio today to chat with you. Oh, thank you, Matt. I like this.

And if I just had somebody on who I didn't really care about but I knew that the audience would like, it would just be more tiresome. It'd be a sludge. I agree with that. I started doing in-person interviews about not quite a year ago, because I was getting burned out

on the split screen virtual thing that we all had to do during COVID. But it's, I mean, as you well know, it's really a big investment of time and resources to do this in-person stuff, you know? You have to have another person helping you run things. You have to pay for travel. You have to do all in-person stuff, you know? You have to have another person helping you run things. You have to pay for travel. You have to do all these things.

And it's been a lot tougher, but I've just enjoyed it so much more sitting down with people and sharing these conversations. But it's also made me that much more intentional about who I want to have sit next to me. Because there's really very little buy-in to just hop on a Zoom call with someone and talk to them for a half an hour about the latest book they wrote. And you don't even know about it, right? You don't care.

But are you going to do that when there's a big investment of time and resources to bring that person and sit across from you for a couple hours? And I've just had so much fun doing that. And I feel myself moving more in that direction. But at the same time, I also go, OK, well, this video didn't do as well as this one. Why was that? I really like this conversation. So I still find myself falling into that trap

of trying to figure out what I'm doing with it. Yeah, I had John Eldridge on the show. Love John Eldridge. He's wonderful. And it did well. And I thought it would do well. I thought it would do better because he's so terrific. And then I had another fellow on the show who converted from Islam and that has exploded

and like, oh, wow, okay. People like that. I think there probably is a humility to wanting to use the platform the way it works. Yeah. There could be, I mean, there can be pride anywhere, right? humility to wanting to use the platform the way it works. There could be, I mean, there can be pride anywhere, right? So if you say, well, I don't even care how this works, I'm gonna do what I want. Okay, but actually it could be humble to be like,

all right, so if this sort of content is working, people seem to want this, I'm gonna put the kind of thumbnail, I think, that people, that YouTube wants. There can be humility in that too, I suppose. I think it's a balance like anything. And I think that that's a healthy balance to have in a lot of areas of life,

to think about what do I like versus what is the mission. And we have to even remember in the context of our YouTube channels, it's a bigger mission than I just want to make stuff that I like. Amen. Amen. And that we're all on team, you and I, and Lila Rose and Trent Horn and these other people, we're all on the same team here. That's something I really

want to talk about. Okay, let's do it. Because I think that's a perspective that is sorely lacking in the Catholic online space right now is that sense of we're all on the same team. I want you to dive into this, but before you do, when did you become Catholic again? 2017. Okay, so were you watching Catholic content? I was. There wasn't as much as there is now, obviously, but yes, I was watching Catholic content. I was listening to Catholic content. Was there a lot of drama and infighting?

No. Interesting. No, there wasn't any of, and the truth is, if there would have been, I think that could have been detrimental. I don't want to say I wouldn't have converted because God was doing that regardless, but I think that it would have made it more difficult because I would have, instead of looked at the Catholic content on the internet as a single body, a single voice helping me to learn about the church, I would have had to try to figure out which voice I was allowed to listen to and which voice I wasn't allowed to listen to. And if there were multiple voices that I was benefiting from, but they were talking bad about

each other, I think that would have been problematic, because then I would have felt the pressure to pick a side and said, oh, I have to go with these people. But I was getting fruit in my life from both of these voices or all these different voices. So that's the distinctive thing that was that back then, if there was, I didn't know about it. Let me just say that. Certainly not to the extent that there is today. Yeah, all right, well then, what are you seeing today? Well, what I'm seeing today, first I'm seeing a lot more Catholic content, which I think is great. But what I'm also seeing is a lot more tribalism

and a lot more gatekeeping and a lot more of a tendency for people to try to figure out who's the good voice in this space and who's the not so good voice in this space. And the criteria is often, well, that person said one thing I don't like or they're associated with someone I don't like or I don't like the way they look or I don't like what they do or I don't like the mask they go to or whatever. So I just throw them out completely and anybody associated with them. And unfortunately, what I'm also seeing is a lot of people who that's the center of their content

is criticizing other Catholics. And on one hand, I think it's healthy for us to be criticized, and it's healthy for us to have accountability, because that's one thing that is sorely lacking in this space is there's really no accountability for any Catholic content creators. There's no one above us that says, no, you can't do that. We have to do that to ourselves. But what happens oftentimes is we do that to each other, unsolicited and publicly. So I think that that's become more of an issue lately because it works. I mean, I mean, and I know you've talked about this before too,

but the reason why people do that is because that's what, when I say works, I mean works in building your audience. But the way I look at it is that's not the goal. If the goal is primarily to build an audience, then okay, you could build an audience doing lots of different things. But if you're seeing yourself as some sort of representative of Catholicism to the world or someone who's trying to help people grow in their faith, then I think you have to take a step back and examine yourself and say, is the central point of my content to help people grow and to be helpful, or is it just to build an audience?

Yeah, I guess both could be true, can't they? I mean, this is something I wrestle with. I mean, I don't think either of you would wanna say under no circumstances should one Catholic YouTuber ever criticize another public Catholic. I'd like to maybe lean in that direction, but the classic example I used was the McCarrick scandal, right, but we could bring these other things to light,

or maybe there is someone who's teaching things that are contrary to the faith, or just get it plain wrong, and they're public. It's not like it's a private thing you're bringing to light, it's this public thing. So how do you find that, how do you think people should try to find that balance? Well, I think it's tricky. I think that public error and public scandal, it's okay to talk about that. But I think that there's another layer here that I'm seeing. I guess I'm not really talking

about like the criticizing McCarrick or the huge public scandals of Catholic leadership that have happened over the centuries or whatever. I guess I'm talking more about personal criticism of other Catholic content creators and saying, hey, this guy or this girl, I don't like them, and tune in at six so I can tell you why. Okay. And they did this, that's wrong. They did that, that's wrong. And then it just becomes this WWE kind of video where it's back and forth, and now the goal is now to destroy that other person or to bring everybody away from that person rather than to bring

people to the faith. And I think that that plays to our kind of our dark tendency that we have of self-righteousness and pride to where I can say, well, you know, why don't your disciples wash with unclean hands? You know, or wash, why don't your disciples eat with unwashed hands? Or know, or wash hands? Why don't your disciples eat with unwashed hands? Or why do they do this? Or why do you do that? It's always these questioning of motives, and we never give anybody the benefit of the

doubt. I think that's one of the biggest problems in this space, is people don't like to give other people the benefit of the doubt. They always assume when a content creator is more successful, they always assume it's about money. Oh, he or she's just doing that for money. When they're younger and starting out, it's well, they're just doing that

to try to clout chase somebody else or whatever. So it can be a variety of things, but at the end of the day, we're judging people's personal motivations and intentions. I think it's totally okay to talk about ideas and to talk about how we can all do things better, and maybe this way of talking about things is better than the other way of talking about things. But here's what I'd like to see. I would like to see if random Catholic creator out there sees something another person does that they don't agree with or they don't like, that they find a way to support them and help them to get better,

maybe privately, or if they have a relationship with that person. But here's the other thing, I never see videos about someone saying, oh, let me tell you why I love what this other creator did. That's interesting. Let me tell you why. They went on this podcast and they knocked it out of the park with their... I saw this debate and it was amazing. Kudos to this person. We don't see that. We only see the criticism, never the praise. And I feel like that's... we need to be more supportive. We need to point out the good things that people are doing and build up everybody because again, if we are all part of the same mission part of the same team, then that's a better way to build that team. is people being torn down. And I think that we would see a lot more people rising to the occasion, or a high tide raises all ships, right?

So I think we have to do the best we can do, and I think we have to do a good job. But at the same time, we have to recognize the way to motivate people is to praise them and point out the good things that they're doing, not just constantly tear them down. Yeah, such a great- That makes sense?

It's such a great point because, you know, I guess I've been wrestling with this. How do I know when criticism is okay? And, but it's such a great point. It's like, yeah, but criticism gets clicks. Like criticizing people, calling them out publicly gets clicks. You know what doesn't go viral?

Humility. Yeah. And what doesn't go viral is a video where you just talk about how great this individual did on this or that podcast. Yeah, that's really good. I was just looking up some awesome, there's a lot of really good people

doing some really good work right now. Sips with Sarah is someone I thought was doing good. Who else is doing good in the spirit of calling people out and saying good things about them? Yeah, well, I'll just tell this little story real quick about this. So I went out and did a sort of a debate with a group in Colorado Springs. They invited me to come out, and it was like a debate on authority with a Protestant, sort of a pastor. And you know, I'm not really a debater, but I feel like I have done that a couple of times and I'm sort of like stepping into that world a little bit.

So while I was out there, they said to me, they said, hey, we have James White coming out here and we can't find someone to debate him. Are you interested? Okay. Now, let me tell you something. James White is sort of like, you know, he's the Apollo Creed of Protestant debates, right? If you wanna build a name for yourself,

debate James White, right? And they said that to me. They said, you know, are you interested in doing this? I know where this is going because I just had him on my show, but saying. Okay, so anyway, I said, I thought about it for about three seconds and I'm like, I don't think that that's for me,

but I will find someone, you know? And I had a couple of people in mind, but I suggested Alex, you know? And I didn't know whether he would do it or not, but I threw his name out to them because I thought, you know, I think this guy would be really good at this. And so I called him and talked to him about it

and he was like, I would absolutely love, I would absolutely love to debate James White, Keith. I felt like a woman talking to him. So I said, okay, I'm gonna throw your name out. I asked him first. And we all know the story. He went on there and just did an amazing job. He did so good.

So after I saw the debate, I called him on the phone. And I said to him, I said, brother, you did amazing. How are you feeling? Yeah. And he said, I don't know, Keith. I think I could have done better. I'm not sure. It was good.

But he was kind of being a little hard on himself. And he's told this story before, so I feel like I can share it. And I just told him, what I told him was I said, first of all, you did amazing. I am 100% affirmed that you were the right guy for that. And at the end of the day, you have to realize it doesn't matter how you feel. It doesn't matter how you feel about your performance. Look at what people are saying. They're being impacted. They're changing that they're, they're, they're changing their, their point of view based on what you had said. It's having an impact. And he was just so

humble about it. You know, he was just like, Oh, thank you for it's having an impact. And he was just so humble about it. He was just like, oh, thank you for believing in me. And I was like, man, it was a God thing. And you know what the truth is, Matt? I got more out of that just for me, that felt better to me than if I would have done the debate and blown up as some big fancy apologist and whatever, whatever. Because that's what's happening to him right now. And praise God, that's what God wanted. the debate and blown up as some big fancy apologist and you know, whatever, whatever, because you know, that's what's happening to him right now. And praise God, that's, that's what God wanted. But to me, I just go, praise the Lord. You know, I didn't need to be in that spot because that wasn't my lane.

Yeah. Yeah. So there you go. There's another one. So I think he's doing, I think he's doing great. Yeah. I like, you know, his colleague who works with him has a channel. Um, and I've forgotten his name, hoping to have him on the channel soon but anyway yeah I thought maybe you'd know him yeah there's definitely more than two people oh for sure for sure you know Lila Rose is doing great stuff yeah I just went out to California I was just with her a couple weeks ago yeah and it's good to have different kinds of people like it's good to have women doing stuff and Australian knuckleheads doing stuff and men who acted in Better Call Saul and have a voice deeper than any man should have doing stuff. I want to say one thing about what happened at

Lila's place, okay? Because I had two things happen within two days that were just total God moments. The second one was Lila's, okay? I'd never talked to her, met her before. I think it was because Alex told that story I just told you on her show, so they reached out to me. Like literally the day that that came out, they said, we want you to come out for a show. So they sent me the topic for the conversation. And it was, you know, how do we engage with the secular culture through online stuff? I'm like, okay, I'm always cool to talk about that. But what I mostly talk about is just my own journey to Catholicism, you know, that's kind of what people want to talk to me about mostly. But I love talking about other stuff too. So I'm

like, all right, we can do that. But I'd never talked to her about it. And we sat down, we had this outline and all these things, and we just started chatting. And the whole episode turned into this thing about Catholic conversion and following Christ. Honestly, we didn't even dig really into what we were supposed to. And when we wrapped up, I just said to her, I said, Lila, we didn't even really go where we were supposed to go. And she just said to me, she said, Keith, the Holy Spirit was in charge of this, and we are not going to...

I told her, I said, if you want to just start over and redo the whole two-hour interview, we can do that. Because I felt bad. I felt like I kind of hijacked it a little bit almost. And she was like, this is what God wanted. We need to shout our Catholicism from the rooftops, you know? So that was just amazing. But the day before I went out to Lila's... Do you know who Steve Day says? He's the one who wrote the book Nefarious that they made the movie. So he's got a podcast on the Blaze TV network. And it's a very popular right-wing political podcast, sorry.

And I listen to that show quite a bit. They film it in Iowa. He's from Iowa. And there's three guys on that show. There's Steve, there's Aaron, and there's Todd. Steve and Aaron are both evangelicals, and Todd is a Catholic. And they have these amazing conversations about politics and government and Catholicism and Protestantism, but they don't really get into debates too much. But it's very clear that Steve is very evangelical and not Catholic on purpose. And I don't know, maybe last summer,

I was mowing my yard listening to the show, and they were talking about some things related to the faith. And I remember like listening to this going, oh, I want him to hear this. I want him to hear... I was totally armchair quarterbacking this conversation. And Todd was saying these things that were great, but I was like going, oh, get him here, get him here, say this, because Todd doesn't live in the Catholic apologetics world. He lives in the right-wing conservative movement world, and he's a Catholic, very smart guy. But he's not always thinking about all of these arguments to defeat evangelical Protestantism or whatever. And it was like the Lord just hit me like a ton of bricks in And it's like the Lord just hit

me like a ton of bricks in that moment, and the Lord just spoke to me and said, Keith, if I wanted you there, you would be there. But you're here, mowing your yard. So just, you know, have some humility there and just keep that in mind. And I just remember praying about that, going, okay, Lord, forgive me. I can't be the guy. And this again kind of goes to what we talk about. We watch a video of somebody saying something or a debate that someone, and we go, oh, well, he messed that up. He should have done that. He should have said this. Here's where he screwed that up. And I always tend to think, if God wanted you there, Mr. Perfect Guy sitting in your mom's basement on your computer chronically all day long, then you'd be there. But you're not. That guy's there. Is

he perfect? No. Are any of us perfect? No. But we have to support each other. Well, it just so happens that the next, I don't know, nine months later I was given a talk in Des Moines where they film and I just texted Todd and said, hey, I'm giving a talk at this men's event. Love to see it. Didn't think in a million years he would show up. He came to the event, and we hung out, and he loved it. And the next thing I know, I'm being invited on the Steve Day Show to do a one-hour just sit-down with Steve to talk about Catholicism and Protestantism, where I got to say those

things I wanted to say. I don't know when it's going to air, but it's evergreen, so they'll air it when they're on vacation or something like that. But I just was marveling at how this worked out, because God was almost saying to me, it's not your time. Just sit down and follow me. Don't try to elbow your way into things. And then in some irony, he put me there for that conversation. And I know, you know, it's interesting, I think about it now and I go, whenever that comes out, I'm sure I will get lambasted as messing it up and not saying the right thing and what. And God forgive me if I've ever said anything that is against the church or that isn't a good representation of Catholicism. Yeah. Lord, forgive me for that. I need, you know, I need help, but, but I know that it's,

I'm going to get run through the coals by the online Catholic magisterium of people who, who are just nothing but critical, but I have to get to a place where I just go, it is what it is. Yeah. That happened to me when Cameron Batuzzi and I sat down for the first time and he just kind of drilled me with a bunch of questions. So like I'm not, I'm not Trent Horn. I'm not the Truthly app. I'm not Jimmy Akin, but I can chat with him. And it was the same similar thing. I got some blowback from that and rightly so because some of my answers weren't as good as they could have been. But none of our answers are usually as good as they could have been. I mean, none of us are Thomas Aquinas. And so I agree with you. It's like, okay, if I just said something heretical, thank you so much for correcting me,

and I'll not do that again. But if it's just, you could have said that better. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. Given that I'm a human. But wouldn't it be great if the default in our space was, oh, man, let's talk about how awesome that was? Well, Trent Horn does a good job at this, I find.

Because he'll often, you know, Trent Horn does a good job at this, I find, because he'll often criticize, say, you know, Matt Walsh gets into an exchange with Joe Rogan on gay marriage, for example, or Michael Knowles and Charlie Kirk go at it on the paper see. And Trent will do a review video. And the very first thing I've noticed he says every single time is this is not a criticism of that person. I know what it's like being in the hot seat. I know what it's like to say,

man, I wish I should have said that, but I didn't. We all, but he has some help. So I think he does that quite charitably. Yeah, I think charitably and having humility is so important, but I feel like we live in a time where, and we talked a little bit about masculinity earlier when we were talking about Mike, we have this mindset that masculinity is about domination.

Yeah. You know, and I'm going to destroy you. I'm going to annihilate your arguments and humiliate you. Yeah. And that's what we think masculinity is now. That is 100% what is being presented. It is. And it's, we got to be so careful with that because think about the devil and what he does. He takes a little lie and inserts it into some truth, and then he just... He destroys us, right? Through our pride. And if he can come alongside us and say, hey, you need to annihilate that person,

I mean, that's it. And then we get rewarded for doing that on the internet with, oh yeah, look what you did, you did a great job. That's what gets praised, is when we effectively destroy another person through our snarky arguments, you know? That's what gets the praise, you know, let him cook or whatever, you know, people say. And I think we need to find a way to rise above that. Yeah, no, I couldn't couldn't agree more. Good. Here's a question for you. Speaking of the internet. And I know this sounds like a snarky question. And I don't mean it to be. But a lot of people have been talking about it lately. There certainly seems to be masses of converts from Protestantism into Catholicism and orthodoxy. Has the Internet killed Protestantism or is it slowly killing it now?

Wow, that's a great question. I don't know that the Internet is killing Protestantism, but I can tell you this. The Internet is making it way easier for people to learn the truth about Catholicism, which, again, puts a spotlight on us. And here's the key. I think that if we in the Catholic space think our job is to use the internet to destroy Protestantism, we're never going to succeed. What that is to me, that's the result of what will happen if we do our job, which is to show the beauty of Catholicism. So if we come out and we say,

here's why being Catholic is amazing. Here's the beauty of it. Here's how it will help you become the most amazing saint. Here's how it will make you a better Christian. Here's how it will bring fulfillment to your life and joy and suffering. If we hold up the beauty of Catholicism, then the fruit of that will be people

will want to be Catholic. And that's the ultimate destruction, I guess, of Catholicism, then the fruit of that will be people will want to be Catholic. And that's the ultimate destruction, I guess, of Protestantism. It's not like, all right, we have to come out right now and make it our mission to just tear down Protestantism. Because, I mean, think about what Jesus says, you know, if a demon is cast out of the house and it's left clean and tidy, he goes out and then brings back seven of his friends. It has to be filled with something. And what we need to do is basically say, and I'm not trying to say that Protestantism is demonic just because it's Protestantism.

What I am saying though is this, we can't just make our life about tearing something down. We've got to make our life about showing the beauty of the other thing, which then people will say, well, why am I eating this when I can have this? Why am I eating Taco Bell when I can have a five-star chef cook this amazing gourmet meal for me? And I don't mean to offend people with that analogy, but I think what the internet is doing is it's highlighting those things that are true about Catholicism if we do it the right way because to me most of apologetics is

simply educating people on what the truth of Catholicism is. It's correcting misinterpretations. It's helping people to see what it actually is. And I know that as a convert myself, if I would have started with, let's go through all the arguments of why I'm wrong, now I'm just, I'm more focused on my Protestantism because I'm trying to dig into it to defend it. But if I'm being presented with why this thing is beautiful, good, and true, now my eyes are over here on that going, well, wait a minute, I need to know more about this. Great case in point, a good friend of mine, good friend of mine, very anti-Catholic at one point

in time, and he got together with me. He told me before when I first became Catholic, he says, we need to talk about this, you know, and it was not going to be good. I could tell he was very upset with me. Very theologically minded person. And, you know, I kind of knew that was coming one of these days where we're going to have that talk. He sends me a text says, we need to have that talk. We get together and he just says, I need to understand you better. I need to understand what you believe better. You know, I don't think that I really truly know why you did what you did. So help me to understand. And I just thought, you know, you need to understand what the church is from the church. So...

What a humble question, by the way, I thought, from your friend. It was completely humble. It was completely humble. And he, so he opened that door, and so what I didn't want to do is go, all right, let me give you the, you know, nine arguments or whatever, this or whatever, that. I just said, let's get you a copy of the Catechism. I want you to go through this Catechism and just read it. He said, okay. And then here's what he did. He said, I made a chart of every... He read every paragraph of the Catechism, and for the paragraphs that he agreed with, as a five-point Calvinist Reformed guy, he said, every paragraph I gave either basically like a star, an X, or a check mark, right? And the star was, I agree with this. The check

mark was, I don't agree with this. And, you know, the X was, I don't agree with this. And the check mark was, I need't agree with this, and the X was, I don't agree with this, and the check mark was, I need to find out more information. So he started going through this process, which led him... He read the whole catechism? He read the whole catechism. And we went to dinner at his house, maybe a month after I gave him that challenge, and we're sitting around talking about the Lord, and he goes, hold on a minute, and he holds up the catechism, and he just goes, this is beautiful. This is beautiful. And then he set it down, he

goes, okay, never mind, I just needed to tell you that. And I just thought, this is it, he's gonna be Catholic. And so over the course of many months, he began with that chart, and then what he would do is he would research those areas where he wanted more information. And it was interesting because we met a few months later, maybe it was a year later, and he sat down with me and he says, I need to show you my chart. And he pulls the chart out and he throws it down

and he's got like, it's a notebook. And he's got it all sorted by the date. And he's like, here's all the stuff, and then he goes, but then I read this book and I had to talk with this priest, so then we moved these over to that category, and we went through this thing, and then this date, and this thing, and then we went through this for like two or three minutes, and then finally he pulls it off the table, and he says, and now here's where I am today, and he threw a blank piece of paper down. He says, these are my objections. And, you know, he's becoming Catholic. Wow.

And, you know, here's the thing about that, and I'm probably gonna tear up because he's a good friend of mine, and I've seen what he's had to go through for this. And here's the thing, he is so so excited. Not because he found an argument, but because he found something that's beautiful. And it's not beautiful like, oh, look, a pretty painting. It's the explanation of our faith, Matt. It's the gospel. It's the deposit of faith that Jesus wanted him and everybody else to have. And there are a number of ways that we can get there, but sometimes what we have to do as whatever we want to call ourselves, as apologists, evangelists, or whatever, influencers, which I hate that term, our job needs to be to show that beauty of what the Catholic faith is to people, and that is really how you're going to destroy Protestantism or whatever else. But if we just start off with,. And that is really how you're gonna destroy Protestantism

or whatever else. But if we just start off with, let me just tell you why you're wrong. Now that person is instantly put in defensive posture. They have to build up these walls. They have to protect. They have to defend. But when you say, I'm not even gonna do that,

then amazing things can happen. And one other quick story on this, because it just happened. It's another one of my friends, evangelical guy, who was in ministry for years, known him forever. He's on this journey himself to Catholicism, right? We've been talking about it for years, and he's finally at a place where he's open to doing it, but he's still got a lot of questions, he's got a lot of things. So he decides to go on a retreat, a silent retreat. I can't remember if it was a Franciscan thing. I think it was a Franciscan retreat center. He goes to it

and they begin the silent retreat with a meeting with the spiritual director, okay? And he goes in there. Why did he even go to a Catholic retreat center? He's just, well, I'll tell you why, because he wanted to learn, okay? He wanted to learn, and he wanted to get some of his questions answered. So he goes to this place with a notebook of like, you know, here are my questions, I want the answers. He sits down with this monk, and he says, the monk says, well, tell me why you're here, and he says, well, I'm learning about Catholicism, I've got some questions for you, and I was hoping that you could help me work through

them. And the monk basically goes, we don't do that here. I'm going to teach you how to pray. That's why you're here. Put your notebook away. Put your questions away. Put your agenda away. And I'm going to teach you how to encounter God and Jesus Christ here at this place."

And it just completely put him in a state where he could hear from God, not about his arguments, but about his heart. And he encountered God in such a powerful way at that retreat, and now he's becoming Catholic. And him and I never had the whole argument back and forth thing that I was preparing for. When I meet people who are... They wanna talk about Catholicism, sometimes, especially when I was first starting out, I would wanna have all these arguments ready to go, all of these things. Even when I went on Steve's show, I had a notebook, I had all the arguments. I even emailed Trent Horn one time before a thing, and I was like, how do you prepare for a... But I'm like, I gotta be ready,

I gotta be ready. And what I've learned is, no, you don't need to do that. What you need to do is show the beauty of the faith and help these people understand what Catholicism is. Most of what Steve and I talked about were dealing with misconceptions that he had about the faith and showing the beauty of it. I don't know, I mean, maybe I'm crazy, but to me, I think that's a better approach than setting out on this digital crusade to destroy something that is so dear to a person, because their faith, to them, that's their faith. And if you come at them too hard with, I'm going to destroy your faith, you Protestant heretic, well, how do you know that you're not going to push them over the edge to atheism?

So instead of saying, let me tell you why you're a crappy Christian because you're a Protestant, show them how being a Catholic is going to make you a saint and what that leads you to, and it's the fullness of what you're already doing. It's not the opposite of what you're doing, it's the fullness of it. That's what I think. Yeah, no, I agree with you. I think people have different temperaments and receive things differently. Mike Pensile, for some reason, has come up multiple times in this episode. You know, he was a Protestant and really appreciated people coming after him hard and showing him the arguments

and showing him why he was wrong and telling him to, and so I think different people receive things differently, which is I think back to an earlier point you made, why it's good that we're not all Jimmy Akin or Thomas Aquinas because people receive things differently from different people and to your point earlier about the radio show, you're like, come on, he should have said that, should have said that. Maybe you shouldn't have.

Maybe that relationship was what he needed right then, to see in his friend, someone who loved Jesus Christ and the church, even if he couldn't explain it all as well as perhaps you could have when you went on his show. That's the point of all of this, I think, is when we have the mindset that we're all part of this team, then when we are talking to people, we need to listen to them and find out where they're itching so we can scratch the right itch. So for example, if I'm talking to an evangelical Protestant who is all about, oh, I just want to be in God's presence all day long.

I just want to be in God's presence all day long. It's all about the presence of God, the presence of God. I'm not going to argue with them about creation versus evolution and all this kind of stuff or on the liturgy wars. I'm going to talk to them about the Eucharist. If I'm talking to somebody who is wrestling with, I don't know, they're wrestling with why do bad things happen to good people, and they're wrestling with the issue of suffering, I'm going to take them to some of the writings of the saints

that have been martyrs and suffered. We have to know who our audience is and then be humble enough, hopefully, and I fail at this a lot, to say, maybe I'm not the best person. Maybe I should have, you know, what book should I read, Keith? You know, well, I have a couple of books, but maybe you should read this other one instead. You know, if you're really all about Sola Scriptura, then you should read some of Gary Machuta's stuff, you know, about the canon. But when we have this understanding of, of team, then we can

easily flow between those and we're aware of, oh man, this person would be great for them. This person would be great for them. You know, my kids who are, you know, zoomers, like who I'm not going to tell them to subscribe to the YouTube channels of these, you know, these older people. I'm going to say, oh, well, hey, you know, these younger people are, are they speaking your language a little bit better do that. I'm not just going to go, oh, well, hey, these younger people, they're speaking your language a little bit better. Do that, I'm not just gonna go, oh, these Zoomers, we can't talk, they're terrible. No, they have something they're really good at.

How do we line that up with the people that we're speaking to? I wanna tell you about some amazing coffee we were sent recently. It was from Seven Weeks Coffee, which is America's pro-life coffee company. They are on a mission to fund the pro-life movement, one cup of coffee at a time. The reason they're called Seven Weeks Coffee is because it's at seven weeks that a baby

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So go to 7weekscoffee.com and save 15% forever when you subscribe, plus exclusively for my listeners, use the promo code Matt for an extra 10% off your first order. That's a 25% total savings on your first order plus your free gift. Remember, your order will directly help support a network of over a thousand pro-life organizations across the U.S. 7weekscoffee.com. When we recognize each other as being all part of this body of Christ and this family and with similar missions, then we can do that. But sometimes if we've made our whole persona about tearing everybody down, it's pretty hard to tear somebody down

and then refer their content to somebody else. Mm-hmm, yeah. When you were coming into the faith, 2017, do you think that the misconceptions are the same today for Protestants as they were back then, or are they different? This has blown me away, but by and large, yes. And why I say this blows me away is because one of the problems I have is I keep feeling like I can't keep making the same kind of content.

You know, I can't keep talking about why we don't worship Mary, or why slow scriptura doesn't work, or the Catholic Church doesn't think the Pope is perfect, you know, or what, like these basic or the Catholic Church doesn't think the Pope is perfect, you know, or what, like these basic arguments about Catholicism, because I go, well, I've already done that, and so has everybody else. But what's interesting to me is I run into people all the time on YouTube and other places that are still making the same objections.

So they're still, whatever we've done hasn't reached that person. So I feel like sometimes I go, well, I've already done that. But I think the Lord hits me with that and saying, well, maybe you need to do it again just in a little different way. But the best way to figure that out is to listen to that person. Listen to their objection. Find out, what's the issue here? Have you heard these other arguments that we've been making for 30 years and they haven't convinced you? If so, why not?

Is there a part of your argument that we haven't addressed? Or are you just so new to this that you don't even know who these guys are? So, but either way, the answer is still the same. We still have to speak to them. So I think a lot of those arguments are still there because we have new people coming in all the time. But we can get stuck into thinking, well, yeah, well, 30 years ago, you know, Rome Sweet Home came out, so nobody else needs to write a book about becoming

Catholic. But there are new people that are being exposed to this stuff every single day, and a lot of them haven't done that big deep dive yet into the world of Catholic apologetics. So yeah, I think some of those arguments are still out there. I think one of the reasons I'll use the language that Protestantism might be dying, and again, I hope it dies because I think it's a Christian heresy, but I don't want people to be left without faith. I want them to come to the fullness. Yeah. I think that's what a lot of Protestants share with me. When they became a Catholic, they just became more of a Christian. It was less giving up things and more adopting this whole beautiful universe

But I think one of the reasons might be because even Protestant again to use that word We don't like influences are very much at odds with each other You know, are they Calvinist are they Armenian or what have you but do you think with the online fighting? have you. But do you think with the online fighting that we sometimes overplay the divergence within Protestantism and the unity within Catholicism? Or do you think, no, no, even with our little kind of sneering disagreements with each other, the unity in Catholicism is still the major selling point for Protestants? That's a great question. I think it depends on the Protestant you're talking to. Because some Protestants make a really big deal out of the divisions within Protestantism.

They fight with each other, and they're really hung up on those nuanced positions within Protestantism about, let's say, baptism or the Holy Spirit or the end times or whatever, sacraments, how to do church. There's a lot of infighting about that. I think it's, I still think it's wise for Catholics to talk about the divisions in Protestantism, but not at that level, because we have it at that level too. Okay? I mean, there's certain, some of the things I mentioned. So I think it's, I think when we talk about the divisions within Protestantism, we have to keep it to a higher level of division, okay?

Not on the lower levels of things, okay? The more shallow things. Yeah, like we prefer this kind of music. Exactly. Because they're going to look at us and say, well, you guys have the same thing. You got all these guys fighting about Latin mass, Nova Sordo, whatever. We need to downplay those divisions and highlight the upper level, the things that really truly matter to the faith that Protestants are divided on, okay? Those are big deals. Baptism is a big

deal. Whether or not you can lose your salvation is a big deal. Those are things that really, truly matter. And if Protestants want to try to say, well, we're united on the most important things, here's an even bigger deal. Who gets to say what those things are? Unity in the essentials, charity in the non-essentials. Well, in a Protestant mindset, you can't really say that because, first of all, we don't even know what the essentials and the non-essentials are, and we don't have an authority that can tell us.

And the Bible doesn't lay it out. No. So we can say, well, that's, you know, who gets to make that call? In Catholicism, we don't have that issue. We don't, we have other issues. We don't have that issue. We have the church's teaching that is there. If you want to know what the church teaches on a given subject, you can find the answer,

and every Catholic has to agree with that when it comes down to the dogmas of the Christian faith. We don't have these divergent issues on things like whether or not you can lose your salvation or justification by faith or a faith alone. We don't have that. So, we need to highlight those areas of unity because those are the ones that really matter. The problem is, when we don't do that, Protestants think all division is created equal. And they look at us and they go, well, you guys are just as divided. You've got Franciscans and you've got Dominicans and you've got Jesuits. So there you go. And I'm constantly telling people, those are not different denominations within Catholicism. Those are different areas of focus and different areas of mission, but they're all under the same authority. They all have the same ultimate

authority and doctrine in teaching. We're unified in the faith. Those are just different ways of living it out. You guys don't have that unity. You couldn't even if you tried, because there is no authority in that mindset. I think it's good to highlight those things, but we have to make sure we're highlighting the right areas of division and we are emphasizing the right areas of unity in Catholicism, so that way those two things aren't seen as apples to apples. I thought of an analogy recently, you may have thought of it as well. If you've got a couple of dumbbells in your garage and you've got a big equipped gym up the road,

you can kind of work out well with a couple of dumbbells, but it takes a lot more work. Likewise, or analogously, you could have somebody at the gym up the road just scrolling Instagram and sitting on the bench. And I think that's not a great, it's not perfect, but it's an analogy for Catholicism and Protestantism. We've all met Protestants who love Jesus Christ, and they have the Scriptures, and they can teach us things about it, and we should be humble enough to learn from them.

I don't mean anything novel, not something the church hasn't taught or the saints haven't taught, but we all know individual Protestants who just are beautiful, and they might put us to shame in our own prayer life and Bible reading and things like this. I guess just throwing that out there for the Protestants who are watching us. In saying that we want people to become Catholic, it's not to say that we don't think that you love Jesus Christ or can't be more advanced than me in prayer or something like that. I think it's a great analogy. I would just add one piece to it.

Yep. Okay, you've got the guy with the dumbbells scrolling on his phone, you know, trying to figure it out on his own. Yeah. Down the road, you've got the beautiful gym with the personal trainer. Yeah, come on. Who can say to you, here's what you need to do. You know, otherwise you can go on YouTube and look for fitness videos and different

plans, but ultimately, oh, you can just try to figure it out on your own. And you know what? You're going to have some results because some of the things that you're going to do on your own are the same things that the trainer who knows what he's talking about would tell you to do, but you're not going to know everything that you're supposed to do. And he does. Okay. So your personal trainer who knows how to train you and what to have you do, because I don't know. I mean, I've gone through that journey in my own life. And I'll tell you this, when I'm trying to get in shape, it's much easier when I have someone who's going to say, here's the weight, here's how many times you have to do it.

Yeah. Not, okay, well, what should I do today? I got these things I could do. That's whatever I do is probably going to be good to some degree, but He's going to tell me exactly what to do to get the desired result. I think that's Catholicism. So I love your analogy. I would just add the teaching element of the personal trainer who knows what you really should be doing to get the result. How did that happen for you when you crossed over the tiber into Catholicism? Oh, it was incredibly freeing because I felt the pressure constantly and the insecurity at the same

time of thinking, how do I know what's true with this? How do I navigate through this conflict that I was having in my own denomination that was going very liberal, and I was, you know, at the time relatively conservative, okay? I'm more conservative now as a Catholic, but theologically, I mean, okay? How do I figure out how to navigate through this when I've got all these supposed smart people who they have the same Bible I have, and they've got more degrees than I do, and they're telling me

that it's okay for these particular things to happen that we're arguing about, and that I'm clearly going, this isn't biblical, this isn't right. And then apart from even the conflict, just wanting to know God, wanting to know what's true, and seeing so many theologians that I loved and respected, and preachers that I loved and respected and preachers that I loved and respected, but that had completely different takes on things. I loved listening to Tim Keller. I loved listening to him. But I also listened to other guys who were not Reformed Calvinists, and they had beautiful takes on things too. And, you know, I mean, I was a Calvary Chapel guy when I was young, and I loved that aspect of it too, but those things don't always line up either.

And trying to figure out, well, which one's right? How are we supposed to do this? That, to me, was exhausting. And when I became Catholic, it was just like I could say, I don't have to do that anymore. I don't have to do that anymore. I don't have to figure out how many sets or how many reps or how much weight I should do or what's, should I go three days or five days or should I do this? All I have to do is just, I'm going to have to work hard, no doubt. It's not easy. I'm going to have to work hard, but I'm working hard at what I'm supposed to be doing, right?

When I go to the gym with the personal trainer, I'm going to, I love this analogy, Matt, I'm supposed to be doing, right? When I go to the gym with the personal trainer, I love this analogy, Matt, I'm gonna steal it. And when I go to the gym with the personal trainer, I'm gonna work harder than I was working over here, but it's on the right thing. Yeah. So to me, I wasn't afraid of hard work in my faith. I wanted to do that. I wanted to dig. I wanted to know the truth and follow it and live it. It's just when I became Catholic, I felt like I finally had the fullness of what that meant, which was so freeing and the cause of such incredible joy. Nothing else mattered. Losing my income didn't matter. Losing, you know, my career path and my identity as a pastor didn't matter. Losing what I knew I was going to do for the next, you know, 25 years of my life didn't matter. All, and you know, all the other things. They were

important, but they were nothing compared to the beauty of what I was stepping into. So to me, I just go, that's what we need to do. What revealed the beauty of the Catholic Church to you? Was it a local parish? Oh man, well first of all, it was seeing the faith lived out in a few people in my life that I knew very well who were hardcore Catholics. Devin Schott is one of them. I know he was on your show recently. Seeing his faith, because I mean... Yeah, I remember you were telling me this story about the two of you getting into an argument. Oh man, we got into tons of arguments. He's terrific. But when I saw

how he lived out his faith through cancer and through what happened with his daughter, Anna Marie, you know, and like, he's the real deal, man. He wasn't just just going, well, I'm a Catholic, so I have to suffer and like it. He found purpose and meaning. And I remember watching him just going, I couldn't do that. I still do that. So seeing the faith lived out in the lives of a few people that I knew close, and there were others too, my friend Greg is another one. So that was, but then when I started going to mass and really understanding, and then of course, you know, we talked about learning the Catholic faith online, different things, seeing the beauty of it, reading the church fathers, reading some of these things that these people were going through, and understanding the sacraments in a better way. I think that was

so beautiful to me when I started to really understand the Eucharist, when I started to understand confession. I saw that as beauty. I saw that as freedom. And I just wanted it to be true, even the things affiliated with the Blessed Virgin Mary. I saw the devotion that people had to her, but it wasn't something that made me think, oh, she's a distraction or she is an obstacle. I saw how their devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary made them more in love with Jesus. And they had this faith that seemed otherworldly to me, and it wasn't like less than what I had, it was more than what I had. And I just, I wanted that.

I wanted that. Yeah. Criticism is easy to offer. Defining ourselves by what we're not is really easy to do. But yeah, yeah, praising what is good is more difficult for whatever reason, and knowing who we are, and not just what we're against is very important. Yeah. Just thought I'd throw that out there. I think it's true. I mean, I'd ask you the same thing. I mean, you've been doing this for a long time right now. And you know, you've had this journey with not just being a Catholic, but your journey with your family, your journey with this podcast, and all of that. And I don't mean to turn tables on you, Matt, but I'd love to know right now for you what's beautiful about your faith.

what's beautiful about your faith. Thank you. I'll get to that. I think why we like criticizing things is because we can't find Eden here. And we subconsciously think that we should be able to, that if we can just pull the right levers and get people to act the way they should, like not talk at church and not have drums at mass

and whatever else, if have drums at mass and whatever else. If we just get all that and don't get me wrong, that's definitely an improvement. But we think that eventually, there we go, now we've got it. But I think that just is impossible. And so we're always finding ourselves frustrated because we don't realize that we're kind of meant to live in that tension the Amidst our own poverty and the poverty of those that we interact with I think that's part of the reason that going to a parish Which we're commanded to do right and we ought to do but why it's so good for us is that we have to kind of We have to encounter the poverty of other people and it might not even be an objective poverty on their part

It might just be my own irritability or lack of patience that makes it seem such. Isn't that the life of Christ? I mean, isn't that what he did? He came down and he entered into that. Yeah. And he was perfect. And he was from Eden, as it were, from heaven, right?

And so if anyone had a right to be like, oh my gosh, you guys are hopeless, it would have been him and yet he didn't. And not only did he not do that, he drank and eat with sinners. He was with them and whenever somebody else around him would do that, he instantly shut that down. Yeah, isn't that interesting? He instantly shut that down. So that's not what this is about. That's not what this is about. One thing I'm trying to get better at is not just not criticizing people. And by that, I include my children and my wife and you know, but also not judging people. It's funny that I say that like it's a revolutionary idea and not something that Christ explicitly commanded me to

do. But it is so easy. I mean, I was at the beach with my son the other day, and you see people wearing a little too little. And it's almost like there's this rut in my brain that goes to just, oh, this, like the society we're in, and people dress them like that, because they're exposed to this, and this is the kind of stuff we put on TV. And there are things that we can correct and should correct.

Okay, I understand that. But, but sometimes it's not even sexual or immoral, right? It could be something like I see a girl in line and she's got a bazillion tattoos and blue hair. And I just think, why do I feel like I need to even judge her at all? Like it, it's not like I'll be doing something wrong if I don't do that. I could just greet her at all. Like it's not like I'll be doing something wrong if I don't do that.

I could just greet her as a human being and recognize that I've got no idea what she's been through or why she did what she did and just be kind. That's an option, right? No, no, no. I gotta just sort the world into who's in and who's out and who's good and who's bad. So we can establish some sort of order amidst this chaos.

But all right, what's beautiful in the faith right now? I think what's beautiful in the faith right now is just my beautiful family. I've never, your kids are a little older than me, mine, right? Yeah, mine are 27. Not me, mine. 27, 25, and 24. So mine go from 17 down to 10. I have never had a period in my life

where I have been so just joyful at my family life. Beautiful. You know, you go through seasons, sometimes it's exhausting. My kids are just so beautiful. They're so good and funny and interesting. And I just love them. And honestly, one of the biggest joys in my life right now is just praying the rosary with the kids at night. I keep saying this on the show and I don't need to keep going on about it, but my wife will light the candles and my son will bury himself under a blanket and who knows what he's doing under there

and I don't care anyway, I'm just glad he's with us. So we just gently pray the rosary and it's simple. And it's not terribly impressive, but it's just lovely. And it's just a beautiful way to end the night as a family together. I've just been loving that. I've been loving waking up in the mornings, making myself a coffee and praying the morning hours of the Breivary, just very non-dramatically. I think that's been a big thing I've had to fight with

throughout my Christian life is this fight against perfectionism. Even this morning that happened, right? I'm sitting down, I'm drinking me coffee, and I'm reading through the morning prayer. And I think, you know, you really should be standing and praying. Like, well, you could be kneeling and praying. You're judging yourself in that moment. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, that would be better.

And I had to kind of say to myself, that part of myself, you're right, but I'm gonna do this, because I know that if I was to get Uber like passionate and hard ass about it, I do it for two or three more days and then I subconsciously find a reason not to do it. So I'm almost gonna be gentle with that part of myself and just woke up and it's kind of tired and caffeine deprived

and we're gonna do this the best that we can. That gentleness, I think I was afraid that if I showed some gentleness, I think I was afraid that if I showed some gentleness towards myself or my family, we'd be swamped and destroyed. But what I'm not talking about is being lax-y-daisy. And that's the kind of mistake that I always had. I thought if I'm too gentle, then I'll give up.

No, actually the opposite's true. When I was harsh on myself, I just, I don't know, I couldn't continue. I would just get deflated or I'd lose perseverance. But if I can just be like, you know what? Like this kid is getting up for the fifth glass of water during the rosary today and that's okay. What a beautiful opportunity for me to not criticize them

as opposed to being the dad, shut down. Like that's easy to do. And maybe there's times that you should be doing that. You understand? As I'm getting older, that gentleness with myself and my others, I'm seeing my prayer life just grow and grow and I am seeing virtue flourish. I'm not seeing the opposite that I was afraid I would see. That said, Keith, I don't think I would have been able

to receive that advice as a newly married man. I wouldn't have understood it. Or I would have thought I understood it, which is how I would have misunderstood it. No, that makes perfect sense. And there's a lot of things that line up with the other analogy about the gym that we were talking about earlier. Maybe we ought to start a Catholic fitness podcast. But if you set these crazy parameters around that, let's say you're going to start, you want to get in shape. Yeah. All right. I'm going to go five days a week for two hours in the morning and an hour at night. I'm going to run, you know, three miles every day. I'm going to do

all this stuff and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm going to eat macros and all that stuff like that. Cause you're fired up and you get into like day three and you're like, I can't do this. And then what do we do at that point in time? Well, what we don't do is make a conscious decision not to do it. We don't go, I'm not doing this anymore. What 10, I mean, maybe you do, but I think what more likely to happen is you find an excuse not to do it and you fill your time with something else and you just sort of push it out of your mind until I haven't worked out in years, you might say to yourself. Yeah, it slides away, but it doesn't, what it doesn't usually do is devolve into a more healthy balance. Yeah. What it does is it goes from all to nothing. Exactly. And then it's harder to go back there because we associate that very

exercise with this rigidity and this unmeetable standard that we can't live up to. And so what we do is we punish ourselves because we can't be perfect instead of trying just to be good. Yeah. And I think that there's a reality to our spiritual life with that sometimes. We think, I can't be perfect, so I'm just, you know, I'm worthless. But sometimes what God is just saying is, I just want you to be good.

I'm not talking about allowing compromise, sin, and things like that. What I'm talking about is letting God define for us what He wants us to do rather than comparing ourselves to somebody else or letting someone else tell us what we need to be doing so we can be as good as they are, you know? We have to just show up. And I think about with Jesus and those little kids that showed up, and the disciples were like, He's teaching, get them out of here. And he grabs and puts them on his lap. Yeah, that totally would have been me in my first few years of marriage.

Sure. You'd be, let the little children come to me. And I'll tell you where this is intersecting that part of it in my life right now, that's a beautiful thing. And I think it goes to that because how kids are supposed to behave in church. When I was a pastor, okay, I was the guy that was like, get those kids out of here, I'm talking. And what I say is important. So, if you got a little kid who's fussing in church, we've provided entertainment for them. So, this is all about me, the lights on me, the sounds on, you know, everything's right here, people. I've got the Bible, you know, this is important. Get those kids out of here. Well, obviously we know in Catholicism it doesn't work that way, and I think that's a

good thing. That was a struggle for me at first. I have a granddaughter now, and my kids have started coming to Mass with us, bringing my daughter and her husband, bringing my granddaughter to Mass with us. And she makes the little baby noises and does the things. And I love sitting there holding her, and I'll get up and kind of just like go in the back a little bit if she gets a little crazy. But here's the thing I've never encountered. I've never had the priest call me out and chastise me from the pulpit. You know, and don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying that if she's having a meltdown and screaming and freaking out that I'm just gonna sit here. We're just gonna sit here. But just the little things of just babies in my past life, that would have been like a no-go zone. And what's been cool

past life, that would have been like a no-go zone. And what's been cool for my kids who are kind of taking a step out to do this, you know, they have felt so loved and so accepted by the parish that after Mass is done, they are literally mobbed with all these people that want to tell them how beautiful their baby is and how thankful they are that they're there. And that has been a huge witness to my daughter and her husband. It's just been amazing. But again, it goes to that whole, are we trying to be like rigid in perfection? Jesus said, let those kids come to me, even though they were probably making noise during his sermon. Yeah. Well, I think what Christ wants of me is my confidence in Him. So you almost might say that, you know, the Mass and the, you know, stereotypical evangelical service, there might be a nice analogy

here. Let's see, maybe it'll have something to do with the gym. But, you know, in the spiritual life, I don't actually have to do the work, but I rely on His grace beginning, middle, and end. So what I'm finding is, as I surrender to the good Jesus and say, listen, you know this, Jesus, all of my strength is weakness anyway. So I would like you to please come through. I trust in you, and I trust that you'll bring about in me the good things you want to bring about.

That kind of lightness and that kind of gentleness and this trust in the loving Father who's actually at work in you. That's kind of like mass in the sense that like, we just do the same thing every single day and there's not a lot of effort put into it. Do you know what I mean by that? I know exactly what you mean by that.

I mean, obviously there's effort put into it, but now think of that and then you contrast that with a praise and worship service, which I'm not demonizing or anything like that. But you might contrast that with a lot of energy, a lot of, we have to, this has to be just so, we've got to work ourselves up. It's like, no, that's, don't do that, don't do that.

And so kind of like that peace and relief you're seeing at Daily Mass and contrasting that to you when you were the pastor, maybe suggesting that people go elsewhere, however you put it, is like how I'm kind of, I think, I hope is true, what do I know? That the Holy Spirit might be leading me in this direction from this like hardcore badass,

we're gonna get this done, hard ass, I suppose is what I should say, to just a receptivity and reliance on the grace of God. And then as I do that, I I'm finding and I think you might agree That I feel I'm not saying I'm advanced But I feel like I'm advancing more when I just put my trust in him gently And if I try to figure this out on my own, that is beautiful. I love the way you put that it reminds me of When I was learning what to do at adoration

put that, it reminds me of when I was learning what to do at Adoration. When I was learning about that, I, of course, showed up as a new Catholic to Adoration, and I'm like, okay, this has to be productive. And I need to, you know, I need to be on my knees on the hard concrete floor the entire time, and I need to be, you know, reading something very spiritual or doing whatever this or whatever that. And I remember coming in just not knowing what to do. But sometimes when I first started going to adoration, I was going at two o'clock in the morning and I'm like, well, that's just hardcore right there. So there we go. Check that box off. All right. And I remember feeling like, I don't know if I can keep doing this. And I don't know if it's working. Like, I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing here. And I remember feeling like, I don't know if I can keep doing this. And I don't know if it's working. Like I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing here. And I remember, I think it was Devin

Shad who said to me, adoration is just like receiving a blood transfusion. You know, you just lay back and take it. You don't have to do anything. And I just love that. I'm like, okay, now I get it. Because it's not about, and again, we do this, right? Is it about what I have to do or is it about what God is doing? And I think sometimes we think it has to be about me because my faith is weak. And if I don't do something, nothing's going to happen. And I think sometimes we have to have that trust to say, no, you don't have to do anything. Sometimes we have to have that trust to say, no, you don't have to do anything. Let him work it out.

Let him do the thing. Just get out of the way. And sometimes the best way that we can get out of the way is just to literally show up and just sit there. Yeah. This happened to me at a, Bob Schuetz hosted this retreat and I went on it and the Lord did beautiful healing in my own life

in that retreat. It was almost analogous to my initial conversion experience. It was wild. But I remember showing up at this retreat and I had that sense, nothing is required of you. It was almost the Holy Spirit saying this to me, nothing. Like, and I look back on it and I realized I could have actually probably tried harder to enter in, but I just felt so convicted that I had to me, nothing. Like, and I look back on it and I realized I could have actually probably tried harder to enter in,

but I just felt so convicted that I had to do, I had nothing was required of me at all. So they'd be given a talk and sometimes I'd just tune out and like look at something else. And I knew what I was doing and I knew that that was okay. It was weird, but somehow it was like surgery. It was like a blood transfusion. Sit down, shut up, nothing.

Literally nothing is needed of you. All right, Lord, well, I trust that you'll give me what you want me to, what you want to give me. That was the most powerful retreat I've ever been on. And I didn't even try, tried not to try. It takes a lot of trust to do that though, doesn't it? Because it's a lack of control. It's, I don't have control over this.

It's like, it's the, to use a marital analogy, it's like the woman in the marital act is not passive. She's receptive. And there's a big difference. Like one is active and one isn't. So I suppose what I mean is, and what I guess we're trying to say about prayer is, it's not about being passive.

It's about actively, I'll take what you want to give me. I'll grow where you want me to grow. I love that. That's receive, like the act of receiving. And that's, it's interesting. It reminds me of an argument that we often have with, with Protestants sometimes about the thief on the cross who they want to make the argument that he didn't do anything. So they want to say who they want to make the argument that he didn't do anything. So they want to say, faith alone, because the thief on the cross didn't do any works. He'd, you know, whatever. And I'm like, are you kidding me? Look what he did. Look what he did. First of all, he acknowledged his sin, and he, in doing so, repented of it clearly because he

wouldn't have acknowledged it as sin if he wasn't sorry for it. He called Jesus Lord, and he submitted himself to his authority, and he begged for his mercy, when you come into your kingdom, Lord, will you remember me? He did everything he could in that moment. So the argument that he didn't do anything. But think about this, I almost look at it like that's the whole point. We have to be crucified to truly receive the way we're supposed to. I think a lot of us would be better Christians if we were crucified because then we couldn't control with our hands. It's like he held

his hands back and said, no, you're just going to receive what I'm going to do for you today, and you can't do anything. And I think that's the key. And people argue, was that a work? That's a stupid argument, by the way, to argue whether that was a work or whether it wasn't a work. It's not the point. The point is God did a work in him, and he received it, right? But that is his participation, because people want to say, well, he didn't do anything.

No, no, no, and that goes to your point, Matt. Being receptive is sometimes the greatest work that we can do, because so oftentimes our desire and our attempts to do things is the opposite of receptivity. It's saying, no, no, no, no, no, I really don't want to receive what you have for me. I got these other things that I'm doing, so look at this, look at this, look at this. And what God is saying, that's fine, but what I have to give you is going to require for you to set that aside and just let me do what I want to you. So take your

hands and let me nail them to that cross. I wonder if that's what Saint Paul said or what he meant when he said, I have been crucified with Christ. It's no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. He's downplaying all of that. That's receptivity right there. And I just know in my own life, I get into the most trouble when I try to help, when I try to say, all right, God, cool, I got this. Let me go do the thing you want me to do and then bring it back to you, because I want to be like that faithful steward, right? I want to be the one who takes the talents and multiplies it. And I think that there's a truth there that we have to wrestle with, but sometimes the greatest way that you will discover that you can multiply those talents is to always remember this thing. I learned it years ago. My old

buddy, pastor, friend of mine, Craig used to say this all the time. He would say, God is not looking for people to do things for Him. He's looking for people He can do things through. And I've never felt that more than I have as a Catholic. And it's that receptivity piece of it. I'm thinking of John 15, I am the vine, you are the branches. Abiding me. Abiding, eh? Yeah, yeah. Whoever eats my flesh, I will abide in him and he will bear fruit. You can't

apart from me, what does he say? You can do awesome stuff, go at it. No. Some things. Apart from me, you can do nothing. And it amazes me how in our zeal, maybe even our zeal for the faith, that's a good thing, we still try to do things apart from Him. And I think that's what I really need in my own life, Matt, is like, Lord, help me to see the things that I'm trying to do apart from You, even the good things, so that I can repent of them and allow You to do the things that You want to do through me rather than me do these things and say,

hey, look at what I did over here. Because really, what's the difference? It's not about that anyway. It's about that being joined to the Father. And apart from Him, we do nothing anyway. But it's so hard to get that right when we're trying to be, you know, good little disciples. Yeah. We see how, I think a lot of us, including myself, don't often think about the ways that we seek to control God. It just seems like a silly sentence and intellectually we know that's not possible anyway.

So why would I even contemplate it? But we all see the ways that we try to control other people, not through maybe obvious ways, but maybe through subtle ways, or when they do something that displeases us, that we're quick to let them know and things like that. We must be doing that with God as well. Are you kidding me? Come on.

We manipulate God all the time, or at least we try to. And that is something, I will tell you this, I've seen that more as a Catholic than I saw as a Protestant. How so? Well, because if you're anything like me, you sometimes reach the end of summer feeling a little spiritually drained and in need of rest. That's why I'm excited to tell you about St. Michael's Lent with Exodus 90. Rooted in an ancient tradition practiced by St. Francis of Assisi, this 40-day journey was born out of his deep devotion to St. Michael the Archangel. In fact, it was during this practice that St. Francis received the stigmata, a profound

moment of grace and transformation. Join Exodus 90 in bringing back this ancient tradition, a chance to break away from distraction, reconnect with prayer, and fortify your faith. This year, they're diving into the letters of St. Paul to help us see beyond the material world and enter into the reality of the spiritual battle we're living in. So, men, if you've been feeling the call to go deeper, to live with greater freedom, discipline, and purpose, join Father Innocent and Father Angelus of the Franciscan Friars of the Renewal as they lead us through St. Michael's Lent starting August 15th. Be a part of reviving this ancient tradition in the church

and rally with brothers from around the world to follow the example of St. Francis and St. Michael. Go to Exodus90.com slash Matt to find out more information. Join us on August 15th for St. Michael's Lent and get ready to fight the good fight. That's Exodus90.com. In Catholicism, go back to the gym analogy for a second. If I'm trying to impress the personal trainer and I'm in this big fancy gym with all this equipment and all these weights, I can do

a lot more cool stuff. Hey, check out how I can, you know, bounce on my head and do a, you know, a bench press at the same time. You know, like, it's all, like, whatever. And in Catholicism, we have so many more devotions, we have so many more things, we know that there's so many more things at stake, we have all this stuff. If you're looking to do something, you can find it in Catholicism, right? And also, there are these traditions within our faith that attach promises, right? You know, you think about the promises to those who pray the rosary daily or the brown scapula or whatever, these things, and I'm, you know, great. But sometimes that can easily take us to a place in our mind where we go,

okay, all I gotta do is XYZ, boom, now God has to do what I want, or Our Lady has to do what I want. I think it's easier to fall into that mindset as a Catholic, which I think is one of the reasons why one of the misconceptions that people have about Catholics is that they're superstitious, because they're always, you know, hey, if I bury this statue of St. Joseph in my yard, my house will sell. That's, let's be real, Matt. There's a piece of us that's trying to control God in that or a situation in that. If I do this, if I do that, because what it starts with is the desired result. How do I achieve this result in my life that is completely arbitrary? Right? I want, I mean, it might be a good thing, okay? But if I do X, Y, Z, this will happen. Well,

you can't enter into that type of arrangement without some sort of strings attached, expectations, manipulation. So as Catholics, I think we have to be extra careful that we are obeying the Lord and engaging in these devotional practices without becoming people who think that because we've done those things now, we're in the driver's seat, and we can control what God has to do for us. I sent something to my beautiful daughter the other day, no I can't find it, but it was a it was a quote from Teresa of Avila, I forget which work it was of hers, but she said that you know she doesn't really even call it prayer if I'm mumbling to myself with no idea about who I'm talking to, but the point she made made is to your point is that we often talk to God like he's a

servant of ours, as opposed to where his servant, we kind of boss him around and expect things of him. And we even expect him to listen as we're not even listening to ourselves. Oh, that's scary. I do that, Matt. It's you think this is one of the reasons people get bored of the rosary. It's like, well, of course, anyone would get bored if all you were doing was mumbling

without thinking about what you were doing. Yeah. Lord, forgive me for that. I mean, we can all fall into that. We can all fall into those traps of doing these things because we think that there will be a result from them that is something that we have predetermined. I also, though, to speak almost

from the other side of my mouth, think that it can beetermined. I also though, to speak almost from the other side of my mouth, think that it can be unhelpful to be like, well, I've got to be uber concentrated this entire time and then get displeased with myself when I find my mind wandering. Yeah. But just to go, yeah, I'm a rational animal. I'm an animal.

So it's okay. Well, like any personal trainer will tell you the hardest part is showing up, you know. Let's talk about the gym. Let's talk about the gym a little bit. Because you've been, I was at the gym this morning. Good for you. I was, I was, uh,

to our point earlier, I, I, for a while I was doing, you know, back squats and I actually, I hurt my lower back and it scared me actually. You know as you kind of get older to you, like, okay, I'm not here to impress anybody. I'm not here to beat the guy next to me or anything like that at all. I never was. I shouldn't have had that mentality. But,

but you work out? Yeah. Yeah. I go to the St. Michael's Barbell Club five days a week. Oh, come on. Good on you. I love it, man. I love it. I mean, I'm, um, I'm at the age now where, you know, I'm far past the, okay, I'm gonna whatever, whatever, you know, I mean, I have some goals that I'm trying to hit, but like to me, okay, I'm going to whatever, whatever. I mean, I have some goals that I'm trying to hit, but to me, it's a place where I love to be there because it's kind of connected to our faith. I mean, there's rosaries hanging from the wall, there's crucifixes, there's... They don't hide it. Oh, no, no, that's the purpose. I mean, we have every once a month they do the rosary there

with all these men come in and pray on first Saturdays. It's a very Catholic place. And most of the people that go there, like our priests, go there, you know? So it's like most people are there are people from church and stuff. But I found, like, for me, what's been hard is to give myself permission to spend the time I spend there. But I go there not because I'm trying to achieve some, you know, picture of masculinity or whatever, I know that's not gonna happen. I just go there because it's good for me to stay disciplined. And it just makes me feel good to go and work out.

Are they crossfit type workouts or do you just go into the gym and do whatever you want? I just go into the gym and do whatever I want. So I mean, the guy that owns it, Joe, he is available for things that you can hire him to create a program for you. And I've done things with, with him before like that. But at this point I'm, I'm sort of, I just do my own thing, which is probably not great. I'd probably do better. Like Mike offered to, he's like,

Hey man, if you want, I'll try. And I look at Mike, I'm like, I'm scared to do that because I'm like, did he ever beat that record? The dead record oh yeah he he did two reps of the record it was crazy yeah he's such a kind guy he said the same thing to me he was he was super humble about it too you know but yeah I enjoyed it so yeah I do that but I mean you probably realize this too in your life but it's hard to be as consistent as I want to be when I'm traveling so much because I've been traveling so much lately. My wife and I were at the beach for a few nights last week. I try to get to the gym three times a week.

So I'll have a break in between each session, but I really enjoy it. I really like it. I found that when I was doing three days a week, it was more like it would be two days a week because what would happen was, like if I said I'm going to go Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, well on Wednesday I'd be busy with something and I'll go, oh I'll just go tomorrow and then Thursday I'm like well I'm not gonna go tomorrow, it'll be Friday so when I just sort of said to myself I have to go five days a week. Good stuff, yeah. Because then it's just part of my day. So you're not doing

the same, you know, doing back squats five times a week or deadlifts five times a week so how do you mix it up? I do, I do pushing things on Monday and Friday. I do pulling things on Tuesday and no Monday and Thursday is push Tuesday and Friday is pull and Wednesday is legs. Nice. Which I hate. Do you absolutely hate, but I hate doing legs. What do you do for legs?

I just do squats and then I do like leg extensions and hamstring extensions. I mean, I don't do deadlifts. I used to, but I don't know. I probably should start that. But I'm like, I'm not going to be some power lifter. Well, but I think. I don't know.

Mike in the comments can correct the two of us. But I would think that so long as you're lifting appropriately, I think a deadlift is less dangerous than doing back squats. Probably. Do you think? I don't know. I just remember I did squats or deadlifts at first when I started going back to the gym a few years ago. And my back was always killing me. I mean, I was like in pain a lot of times. And it could have been just I wasn't doing them right. But I just kind of was like I don't want to do those anymore and and I guess at my age and my level

The truth is if I don't really want to do it. I'm not gonna do it Yeah, you know, I had a chiropractor recently helped me with my lower back. It was the simplest thing He said your hamstrings are too tight So I've been standing up I love that this has just become two old men telling each other how to make their back hurt less But I'll put my leg just there and I'll just like bend over into it for like 20 seconds on each leg Just a few times in the morning a few times at night and it's amazing how that's helped. Yeah I'm sure that would work for me. I'll probably need to get back into that I don't know, but I just I just enjoy being there, you know, and it's it's good for me. I'll probably need to get back into that. I don't know, but I just enjoy being there, you know, and it's good for me. It's good for me because my wife is always telling me,

you're a workaholic, you're a workaholic, you don't have ever boundaries. You know, boundaries are a hard thing for me. You're always, you wake up, the first thing you do when you wake up is you think about what's going on with work before the last thing you do before you go to bed, and she's 100% right. So her and I have been trying to figure that out for me. And I'm not even good at it at the gym because I'll go and in between squats I'm on my phone looking at stuff or posting something or whatever. It's the perfect time to do it. But that's what I figure. I'm like hey at least I'm here. Yeah I've been really enjoying it. I used to run a lot. I'd get on the treadmill and just run myself into a puddle of sweat.

I don't actually do almost any cardio anymore. Really? Well, you look thinner than the last time I saw you. Well, I'm just eating meat. Yeah. That helped. But my wife and I will do laps around our neighborhood. That's, I understand that that's not impressive cardio,

but that's about it, man. Because I hated it. I hated the cardio. Do you run or you walk? We just walk. That's good it, man. Because I hated it, I hated the cardio. Do you run or you walk? We just walk. That's good. I guess.

Everybody says that. Did they? All the fitness implorers are saying it. Everybody says it. So it has to be true. Everybody knows. That's so funny. But yeah, so I would hate going to the gym

because my knees would hurt and I'd run. But now I just go and just do weights. I love that. Yeah, it's fun, you know? And especially if you can build some kind of community around it that's healthy, you know. Yeah, that sounds amazing. That's good, you know. I go there and most of the people I see there are from my parish or a parish that I know. Like I said, I see our priest there and, you know, we're talking about

things related to our faith. We're talking about lit, we're talking about whatever, and it's just good. Do you ever have people show up and don't realize that it's a Catholic gym? Joe would probably say he does, but it's hard for me to imagine that because it's sort of under the radar. Oh, okay. It's kind of like, he doesn't do a lot of marketing to the masses, you know, he just markets to the masses, you know, if you know what I mean. But most of the people that come in there,

you sort of have to try to find it. It's like at the bottom of a big industrial kind of multi-purpose commercial facility. So it's down in the basement, it's real great. And here's the other thing I love about it. There's not a mirror in the place. Ah ha, on purpose? On purpose.

He has no mirrors in there. It's not about vanity. It's not about trying to impress people. And you'll see, you know, guys like me in there, you know, older guys, you'll see housewives in there. You'll see, and they bring their kids. Like people can bring their kids and just hang out. You'll see like older women in there that are like in their seventies that come in to just work with bands and do different things. But then there's these other,

these like muscle head dudes will come in there and they're bench pressing 500 pounds and squatting 600 pounds and dead lifting, six, 700 pounds. So it's like a beautiful little place, but I've just enjoyed it. But I always tell myself one of these days. I'm really gonna dial it in, you know I'm gonna get it the perfect diet. I'm gonna do this and I just haven't like completely embraced all that

You know seem like a kind of guy who would get fat anyway Are you one of these lucky souls who can kind of eat whatever you want in moderation and be doing all right? I don't think so. I think I could. I did in 2020. I put on some weight in 2020, 2019, 2020. Because before I started doing this, one of the jobs I had, like when my wife and I were doing photography full time, we were eating out a lot. Because we would be going to these shoots and doing stuff.

And there was no going home at 9.30 at night and cooking dinner. It was constant eating out, constantly eating out. and then when I got a second job in that industry where I was a traveling like consultant, that was always I'm taking clients to lunch or dinner, I'm going out. So I put on it, I put on some way, I look back at that and I go man, you know, it was kind of out of control. What do you try to do now? As far as eating goes, Yeah. I would say I'm mostly keto. Yeah. I would love to do the carnivore thing. I tried it a little bit.

I love meat. I love to smoke meat. Like, barbecue is one of my passions that has nothing to do with my faith. But I'm watching. That's what I watch on YouTube. I watch barbecue channels. So I'm like, how do I make the perfect brisket?

When people come out for interviews and stuff, I usually like to cook for people if I can. So I like to do that, but I tend to eat like twice a day and try to keep it as low carb as I can. And recently, I guess the biggest change that I've tried to do is I've really, really dialed back alcohol, you know? How so? Well, I love bourbon.

So I got a bourbon collection. My wife and I, we love bourbon, so we would go to distilleries, and there's other guys in my parish. I guess it's kind of a Catholic man thing, you know? But I mean, I've got a lot of really nice bourbon bottles that we've collected over the years, and we've got a little bar set up in our basement. And we just, my wife and I just love, I mean, I've never, we don't drink too much from the standpoint of at one time, like, I got drunk once in my life. I was 19, you know,

but I just have the sense of, I need to dial this down to a point where, you know, it's something that I do for a special occasion because, you know, Matt Fradd comes to my house or a friend of mine comes or what, or we're celebrating something. You know, we had a bottle that we got it was a bottle of 18 year Elijah Craig That we bought it in 2022 and we said we are saving this for when our first grandchild is nice Yeah And then another bottle that we said when our when our son gets married or when our daughter gets married

We have these bottles that we save for these special occasions, you know things like that. Yeah, I'm not there yet I'd like to be where you are at some point, but I just haven't felt the need. I love having a glass of bourbon at night and I do it every night. Yeah, well, see, here's what happened. I was doing that, but then I went in for some blood tests, you know, just random, just random stuff, and my liver enzymes were elevated, okay? And I was shocked. I was like, why are my liver enzymes elevated? And they're like, how much do you drink? And I told them, I said, I probably drink,

I was drinking almost every night, just like one bourbon. And I told them, and they're like, okay, well, that's not terrible, but whatever, whatever. And I talked to my dad, and my dad told me, he said, when I was your age, I had the same exact thing happen. And there's something genetic that our livers, I guess, are like super sensitive or some wacky thing.

So I think I'm operating with a weird makeup. So I dialed it back quite a bit, and they got a little bit better. And I've noticed that as I've sort of like ebbed and flowed in that journey, because if it was up to me, I would do exactly what you do. I would just enjoy, you know, maybe an ounce or an ounce and a half of bourbon every night just to kind of chill. And that would be it. I don't need to drink three or four glasses of bourbon. I would be sick if I did that. I never want to feel gross after that. So then I moved to this thing. I saw some guy say something about like, if you limit yourself to this little formula,

never more than two, never two days in a row with your alcohol. He says, you will never have a problem with alcohol. So then I switched to that and said, okay, so. That's cool. I don't want to do that. I want to drink every night. Well, I would say this.

And I think this is probably, I know this is probably what alcoholics tell themselves, but I look forward to the bourbon at the end of the day, like I look forward to the coffee in the morning. It isn't, I mean, sometimes I'll go and I'll travel to hotels and I don't have a drink that night. And I don't ever feel like I'm, I wish I could have it.

I'm blessed in that way. I guess some people really feel like they need it. But I just enjoy having having a glass at night, but maybe they'll come maybe that'll change, you know, I feel like when I got a little bit older I Think it was weird like my my reaction to that kind of stuff and food Really changed I used to eat terrible food, you know, I was a Taco Bell addict You know I'd eat all the time and I guess when I hit you know I was probably about your age where my metabolism just like stopped.

Yeah. And I'm like, what am I doing? You know, I was this, I wore these same pants for 30 years, you know, and now they don't fit anymore. What's going on? So I'm like, I gotta quit doing that, you know? And then it was kind of like, okay, well, they would say the same thing. We know when you drink alcohol, it shuts your metabolism down because your

liver has to deal with that instead of deal with the, you know, whatever. So it was like all the, I kept hearing the same stuff. So I'm trying to get to that point, but really I think the thing that's motivating me the most is just I'm trying to get my enzymes back under control. So, you know, and I have some stuff in my, you know, my mom had pancreatic cancer. So I just, I'm trying to be a little sensitive to that stuff, but I don't think there's a thing wrong with having a glass I have some stuff in my, you know, my mom had pancreatic cancer. So I just, I'm trying to be a little sensitive to that stuff. Good for you. But I don't think there's a thing wrong with having a glass of bourbon every night.

I could, I would totally do that if I wasn't seeing any kind of result from it. It is interesting as you get older, you can either keep living the way you've always lived or change cause you have to, right? I mean, again, this is more old man talk, so I'm not sure how many people are watching and going, finally, but here we go.

Or they're going, what are they talking about now, man? Give it five years, give it 10 years. Yeah, so like a wonderful priest in the diocese, good friend of mine, he'll have these bourbon nights and he'll have like a fire pit, men will come over and we'll have a bourbon, they'll chat to like 10.30 at night. I could have done that 15, 20 years ago.

If I do that now, I won't sleep well. I always wake up at the same time now. I used to be able to sleep in. I don't know if it's old man, Matt Fradd. I woke up 5.30. That's what I think. I love that. I love that, but I need to use that as a weapon.

I can't fight against it, I gotta use it. You know what I mean? So yeah, it's like if I tried to say to myself, well, that's unacceptable. Like, no, you're gonna go out and you're gonna have a few drinks and have a cigar at night and wake up. I'd ruin my life, I think.

So you've gotta listen to your body as you get older. So now for myself, I gotta just one bourbon at night. I can't have two or three. Or if I do, I suffer from it. I don't feel in any way tipsy, but I know it affects my sleep. I wake up, I'm more exhausted. And then when you're exhausted,

you're in this place where you're just looking for pacifiers, right? Like you're trying to feel better. Well, what is a pacifier that makes you feel better? Probably not working out and eating well and being kind to your children. You're actually probably more likely to eat junk food, be irritable, waste time on social media. So it's so important, isn't it? As you get older, you got to listen to your body. It's weird.

So I'm in bed by 9.30 at night. When people invite me, even people I love and want to hang out with, I'm like, I just, I can't do it. I'm an early bird and I gotta go to bed early. Well you're a lot younger than I am. So I feel like- Well how old are you? I'm 50. You're not, no I'm 42. Oh you're 42?

Okay, well I think that's a lot younger than me. But because when I was 42 I think I was, well I wasn't quite where you are, but like, as I've gotten older, I feel like I have to be more aware of those things. But here's the other thing that's happening to me, and maybe this is morbid. I'm also looking at my life at this clock and I'm going, wait a minute, at what point in time, you know, is the damage I could do to myself, I'm going to outlive, I'm going to die before that would happen anyway. I'm like, if I just started drinking bourbon every night and eating whatever I felt like doing, how many years before that kills me?

Is it more than 25? Because I'm good with that. I'd rather enjoy the last part of my life than, the truth is, I don't wanna become one of those guys. I've been tempted to just go like, all right, I'm never drinking bourbon again, I'm just, well, it's done. But I enjoy it.

And I enjoy it relationally with my wife. Like we sit down and we do that together. We have this little place we created in our house where we sit in these chairs. We have an old school vinyl record player and her and I have been like collecting records for each other. So I'll go find a record somewhere.

And I thought she would love that. And then we'll sit down, we'll pour a little bourbon, and then I'll put a record on for her. She'll put one on for me or whatever. And then we just sit and it's, I know that we're just getting old, but we literally sit and listen to music together. It's not just in the background.

We'll sit, we'll talk, but then we'll go, hey, let's listen to this album. And then we'll sit and we'll listen and we'll talk about it. And we just enjoy that time. And here's what I've noticed. You could say, well, you could do that with hot tea. You could do that with, we don't, we don't. There's something different about it going down there

and doing that and saying, because you're not gonna do that at two o'clock in the afternoon, but you'll do it at eight o'clock in the afternoon. Yeah, it's a way to unwind from the day. And since we haven't been doing that lately, it's kind of been on the back burner and it's something that I wanna do.

But I just have to be careful because I really am wanting to be a good steward of myself. And if my liver's out of whack, then I have to deal with that. But hopefully it's not anything terrible. I hope so. What was it like for you turning 50? Man, it was great. My wife was like, what should we do?

Should we have a big thing? Should we do, do you want a surprise party? All this stuff. When do you want it? When do you want the surprise party? Yeah. What time? Here's what I told her I wanted.

I said, for my 50th birthday, here's what I want to do. I want to book a private room at a restaurant and I want to invite my family, my extended family, and just a couple of friends and I want to buy everybody a nice lunch for my birthday. I don't want any gifts. I want to just sit in a room with people that I love. I want to serve them, have them served awesome food and just celebrate who they are to me in my life. And it was perfect. Yeah. And she was kind of like, are you sure that's what you want? You don't, you know, whatever, whatever. Because I'm always a guy that likes to like, I will, you know, Oh, I want to ride this motorcycle across the country. I want

to do this. I want to do that. No, I literally just want to have these, my family, you know, oh I want to ride this motorcycle across the country. I want to do this I want to do that or what no, I literally just want to have these my family you know my sister and her kids my dad and his wife and you know my kids and a couple of close friends that were able to be there and There were a few that couldn't make it that I wish were there but but that's all it was to me because I want to celebrate the people that are in my life that means so much to me. And I kind of decided at that moment, like, I'm just going to roll with it. You know, being 50, it's not a big deal, you know? But what I want to do is I want to like, I want to find a way to, in this space of being fit, you're not like,

I'm not like, you know, 80. Okay? But I'm also not 30. So sometimes like these younger guys will reach out to me, these younger people in this Catholic space or whatever. And I want to, I want to like help them and share what I can share with them. Like to be, to take on that role is like, I don't wanna call it the dad or the older brother or whatever.

But I wanna like, I wanna help people with that. So, and I wanna still do things that I have done. You know, I wanna ride my motorcycle. I wanna go to the mountains. I wanna do all these things that I like to do. And, but just appreciate them. I think there's like a part when you turn 50 where you go, okay, I definitely have less years in front of me than I have behind me.

Yeah. You know, I know that to be true. When you're 30, that's possible, but probably not likely. But when you're 50, I don't know too many hundred-year-olds walking around. So I kind of go, okay, I'm looking at it as the next stage of my life What does it look like for me to be the most faithful with who I am? To the Lord and my family that I can be yeah But it just becomes a little bit more serious at that point in time

I remember when I became 40 actually found it kind of liberating because I thought You know and I don't know if this is a saying that I'm butchering or not But it rings true for me that the first 30 or 40 years is you figuring out what cards you have, and then you get to play those cards. And there's no chance of any new cards. This is all you've got. You will not actually be able to become proficient at this skill, probably. And so that's okay though.

Now you can just be you and do that as best as you can. I love that. You thought that at 40? Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. I feel like when I was 40, I still had a whole nother deck come in my way

because I became Catholic when I was like 42 or 43. Maybe I'm giving up too soon. I think you're giving up too soon. I think you've got so many more things in store, you know? I mean, Lord willing, we don't know what life has in store. I mean, I was at the home of, of Ryan Delacroix yesterday, you know? Oh yeah. Bless him. And, and we prayed with his wife as she's ready to pass, you know?

And nobody saw that coming. How's she doing? She's at this point. I know she's about to die. Yeah. I've heard that she's so beautiful and has somehow accepted it so gracefully. Well, when I was there, we were there and she was asleep.

She's at that stage where they're just making her comfortable. But from what I've seen and talking to Ryan and talking to her mom, I mean, it's been this amazing grace that has come into their lives as they prepare for this. And she's just exuded holiness and beauty and grace in the midst of this.

But again, you know, who saw that coming? So, I mean, none of us can look at that and say, we know the outcome. But when you hit to a certain point, you know that even at the best case scenario, there's less in front of you than there is behind. And what I've wanted to do more than anything is just enjoy it.

And I don't mean like hedonistically. I shouldn't say, maybe the right word is not enjoy, but appreciate and be thankful for it. So we have our granddaughter now. And I'm telling you, people say that all the time, oh, wait, I have grandkids. What's that like? It is a trip.

It is a trip. Really, why? Because here's the thing, she looks exactly like her mom, my daughter. Yeah. And you know how you always say, and your kids are little, right? You know, they're in that middle place in life.

It goes so fast. And before you realize it. I love when people tell me that there's on I know I need to be reminded of it constantly like I just got done telling you that my family life is my favorite thing About my life and I and I here's the deal Matt. I love that you said that because When I was younger than you but in that kind of place My family life. I didn't have that perspective. I love them, of course. But I was so busy chasing being a super pastor that it was oftentimes that my family was sort of like in the way of that.

No, I understand what you mean. I see you in that place where you go, no, this is the best. It's the best. No, but I understand what you're saying too. I mean, I was like that for years. And I don't know if it was something as simple as, you know, it's more difficult to have younger children. They're a lot more demanding in some ways. 100%. It may have been that.

But I think there's just a lot of things I didn't see, which I repent of. Like I want to say to my wife, like, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry for those years that I didn't see you. That I didn't, like your struggles weren't my struggles because I wasn't really even concerned with your struggles. I don't know if you've ever had something like that. Oh, dude, a hundred percent, a hundred percent.

And I'm at the point now where it's like, I wish so badly I could go back in time and relive those years with the perspective I have now. But when my granddaughter comes over in the morning and she looks like my daughter and she looks at me and she smiles, I'm like, I feel like, cause I feel the same, right? That happens, you know, you still feel like

I'm the same person. I feel like I've gone through a time warp and I'm holding this precious little girl again. And I just want to soak up every square second I can get of that because I'm so appreciative and so full of love and joy for this little baby. And plus getting to see my daughter be a mother is amazing. And my son-in-law is, he takes such good care of my daughter.

And it's so beautiful. So I get to appreciate that as a dad. And yet I'm holding this little baby, my wife and I are both like, we just look at each other. We're like, can you believe this? It's amazing. I love it. And I just go, okay, Lord, help me to always feel this way and to be the best grandpa that I can be to this baby. You know? But I'm telling you, it's the best. My wife and I lived in Ireland. It's where we had our first two kids.

And my mom and dad came and visited. And I remember one morning, shortly after he arrived day or two in he was looking at me like I could die tomorrow and I'd be I'd be happy because he got to see his grandchildren you know yeah yeah I don't know what that's like it's it's amazing it's amazing I'm so thankful and grateful for it you know yeah but it puts things into perspective you know you think where we live right now is okay, but it's kind of a boring place, you know?

Iowa, I mean, I'd love to live in a warmer climate like everybody else or whatever, but I think to myself, we could probably move, you know? But there's no way in the world that I would ever, you know? If they wanna go somewhere else, cause they live near us, but I feel like there's no more thought of, well, yeah, someday, you know, when we get older,

we could have a place on the, whatever. I wanna be near that kid every chance I can get. And we still have our cabin out in the mountains, but, and I'm getting ready to go there in a couple of weeks by myself. And I'm like looking forward to it But I'm also going I'm gonna be tortured by missing my family, you know But it's it's so beautiful and it just makes you think about

How blessed we are if we get to see those things, you know in life because a lot of people don't you know So I'm thankful for it. Yeah gratitude Can only come from a humble heart. Can't it if you're not humble? I Don't know if gratitude flows easily. Well, I think it was Tim Keller, the great preacher, God rest his soul, who I heard, I don't know if he created this, but I heard him say it one time in a sermon. He said that gratitude and bitterness cannot exist in the same place. That's right. And that's kind of goes to what you're saying. That, you know, to be bitter is the opposite of humility because you're bitter because something didn't go

the way you wanted it to go and it should have. So I'm in the center of that equation, right? Yeah. But to be grateful means that you realize that you have something so beautiful that you don't deserve. How do you grow in gratitude? Because there's been times in my life where I wanted to grow in gratitude,

but I realized just saying, hey, I'm really thankful for my health and I wasn't doing it. I felt like I was just saying words. Well, I think that the way you grow in gratitude is you take the focus, first of all, you have to acknowledge your own shortcomings, first of all, you have to acknowledge your own shortcomings, your own sin, you have to acknowledge that you don't deserve anything, which you can sort of

say that as, well, that's the baseline, but you could spend your whole life trying to get there. Because most of this, let's face it, most of us are entitled. We think that because we've done some good things, you know, you mentioned the whole analogy of God before, you know, and that He's our servant or whatever, we treat Him like a butler sometimes, you know? He shows up when we want Him to, to do our bidding, but then He disappears when we don't. You know, and I found that, and I'll get back to that, but some people find, some people are more prone to walk away from their faith when things are going really bad and they're like, God, why did you do this to me?

You know, you shake your fist at God. Other people are more prone to go away from God when things are going good because they're like, well, I don't need them anymore. You know? But either way, the central error in that is the focus is here, okay? Gratitude comes from when you remove yourself from that, say, I don't, it's not about me, and you focus on what you've been given, you focus on God. So the more that you realize the goodness and beauty of God and are aware of that, the more grateful you'll be. That's why I love

the joyful mystery so much, you know? The first joyful mystery, the enunciation, the spiritual fruit, the way we do it on the Rosary crew anyway, is humility. And I think about the Blessed Virgin Mary's response when Gabriel came to her and gave her this news. She never once said, well, what's this going to do to me? How will this affect my life? She didn't understand it, which I think is beautiful too. How can this be, since I know not man?

But what is her response ultimately be it done unto me according to thy word? I am the handmaid of the Lord Why is the spiritual fruit of that humility? Because just like you can't make yourself to be grateful. You can't make yourself to be humble. That's the fruit I see it's the fruit of of belonging to God, understanding who He is to you, understanding who you are to Him, and letting your identity be wrapped up in Him. And when you realize how good He is, how loving He is, and how He's graced you, that even if everything in your life right now, okay, Lord forbid, but if everything— A job incident.

If a job incident happened in your life right now or in my life right now, neither one of us would have grounds to shake our fist at the Lord and say, how could you do that to me? Because of what He's already done by saving us, what He's already done by coming into the world and redeeming us, we are so blessed. It's already happened. It can't be undone. It's something in the past. And when we focus on what God has already done versus what we want Him to do for us or what we think He should be doing for us right now, we got to eliminate that. Gratitude's gonna come when we go, it's already done. Get my focus on that and I live out of that versus, all right, I got a plan, God.

Let's get you on board with it. Yeah. Um, we've been talking about podcasts and aging. And so I think this will, this will go nicely. John Lennon said you can only ever be that hungry once. And I think that, um, I'm not as hungry as I could be to make this podcast all that YouTube could let it be.

Right? And I don't want to be. You and I both know how to grow YouTube channels, just more content, it's that easy. So I could have my, you know, our business manager, Melanie, just start lining up the list. I'll do five, I'll do five a week. That's easy, just take the weekends off.

And we'll figure this out. That's it. That will work. Now, not every interview is gonna be as lovely as this one, but hey, but I don't want to. And I think when you're young, it's almost like that pep in your step and that fire in your belly.

You're meant to be like that. So maybe some of these YouTubers coming up now in the Catholic sphere, God bless them, all power to them. But I don't know about you. I mean, you've got your granddaughter in your family. I've got my kids and I just want to be at home with them. I don't want to, you can only be that hungry once. I thought that was a really good line. I think that's, I think that's very interesting. And honestly, I think that's healthy. You know, now I guarantee you there will be people that watch that. And they'll go, well, it's easy for Matt to say that. He's got this big fancy podcast.

Or they might say it's easy for Keith to say that. It's funny, I got my little YouTube plaque for getting 100,000 subscribers in the mail. Congrats. Thank you. And that's an accomplishment. And I won't pretend that it's not. Yeah. I have mine somewhere. But I won't pretend that it's not.

Mine's somewhat. But I think yours is over there, right? Yeah. You know they changed them, right? Did they? Yeah, mine's not as big as yours. Oh, really? Yeah, they made them smaller.

What do they call it? A more efficient size. They're like this now. I mean, whatever. But I kind of wrestled with that, because I sort of have this unwritten rule for me. I don't have it for anybody else, but I've never made a post like saying,

hey, I got to 50,000 subscribers. Or hey, I got to 100,000 subscribers. Because just for me, I think that would play into like some sort of pride. I don't know. But here's what I learned. Because this happened to me when I was younger, big time, but here's what I learned, because this happened to me when I was younger, big time, when my youth group went from 12 to 300, okay?

You'd think at that point in time that would be like, oh my gosh, you've arrived, you know, that I would be with the attitude that you have that says, I don't want to do more, I didn't have that, because I was in a spiritually broken place. And to me, my identity was I have to be the rock star. I have to be the biggest, the best. And I know a guy that's got a thousand kids in his youth group. Why can't I do that? How do I do that? It was because I didn't have this relationship with God dialed in correctly. It was that's what I need to do, you to do to be accepted by God, right?

And I don't wanna see that ever happen to me again in this place. And to be honest with you, I don't think that it will because I have a completely different take on it now. So it's refreshing for me to see you already have that to where you say, yeah, this is fantastic. I always prefer the less flattering interpretation and the more flattering So I suspect it has less to do with my humility and more that I'm just tired and like my family a lot

And what I want that more, but that's a good thing. Yeah. No it is. We're gonna want we all want something That's yeah, you know, we're never we're never called if it now it'd be different if you said to me I don't want to do that because I want to sit home and play video games. Right. Or I want to, you know, I just want, and if your life had no meaning or purpose outside of that and you just wanted to be lazy, but no, you're choosing something that's beautiful,

which is actually your vocation. Yeah, yeah, I want to waste time with my family. And I don't want to overstate this for people who might be feeling discouraged right now. Like there was a lot of time where I didn't feel that way. Like I find it frustrating to be around little children. I found when the house was messy, I found that really frustrating.

Even experienced anger, went to therapy over that, like stuff like that for sure. But yeah, now's a lovely season I want to tell you about hello, which is the number one downloaded prayer app in the world. It's outstanding Hello dot com slash Matt Fradd sign up over there right now and you will get the first three months for free That's like a lot of time You can decide whether it's useful to you or not whether it's helpful if you don't like it You can always quit hello dotcom slash Matt Fradd.

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Hello.com slash Matt Fradd. It's beautiful. And I'm just, I want to tell you, drink that in, man. Drink that in. And this is all great, right? This is great. But it's God's. You know, God is doing the work through what you're doing and praise Him for that. But I'm happy to hear that your identity isn't so wrapped up in the success of this podcast that you would say, sorry, Cameron and the kids, I have to do this. I gotta figure out how to take this to the next level. I've gotta take this thing to, I gotta whatever, whatever, whatever.

Because if you're driven by that, then here's the dirty little secret. If you're driven by that, you'll never be happy because it's never enough. And we've all gone through that to one degree or another with something in our life where we think that if we just hit this mark, now we'll be fulfilled and happy. And it keeps getting moved.

What you said earlier in response to me was there might be some people who think, oh yeah, Matt with his fans. And I had this shock, wait, does anyone actually think that? Like I'm so far removed from that, cause I'm here and there's always more to get. And so I don't feel like I have a big podcast. Isn't that silly?

I will tell you something. I'm not, I'm not asking you to tell me. I know you're not, I know you're not, but they do. Yeah. They do. It's you'd be shocked how many people, since I went on your show the first time, even before I went on your show the first time, people like, you know, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah,

you know, whatever, whatever, whatever. But yeah, I think YouTube subscribers, that is a number more for the creator than anything else. It's a ladder to climb because you know, like I do, someone could have a thousand subscribers and their videos are doing way better, get way more views and interaction than someone with a million subscribers.

That's true. And so I really, so it's not like, well, if you've got a lot of subscribers, you get a lot of views. No, no, there's some big subscribing accounts, like I think the morning show has a sub, has like 2 million subscribers or something, whatever. One of the morning shows,

but they get like a hundred views or something. That's crazy. So I just think it's they put that number there because they know that we want we want to see it climbing. Yeah, and I think it's, you know, I think it's okay to have things to help motivate you and to help to help you go, wow, this is, if anything, it's to keep you to a point where you can be like, wow, thanks be to God, this is, This is helping reach people. But I think other people make a bigger deal out of it

than we do sometimes. And I think that's healthy. Because if we make too big a deal out of it, then what does that say about us? Yeah, yeah. Is this your full-time thing now? Yeah. Cool.

When did that change? Well, it started in 2020, which was awesome because of the pandemic. Yeah. I mean, I quit my job. I had two jobs, okay? And, you know, our business, our photography business, and then my other side job, which was a full-time job of being a traveling consultant for our photography lab. And I started to get all these different speaking engagements and these requests and I would doing these little things, but I started to get all these different speaking engagements and these requests, and I was doing these little things, but I was running out of time in my life for that.

So I had to get to a point where I'm like, what am I going to do? What's going to happen to me in this place? And I was sort of going, well, I either have to say, no, I'm not doing any more ministry things, or no, I'm not going to work 70 hours a week. And it was interesting because when I first became a Catholic, doing ministry was never on the table. Yeah. I was never going to do that. So it was almost like when I got to that, and I remember my priest said, one year, Keith,

one year, do nothing. And he wasn't like twisting my arm. He was basically saying, �You have a year before I will allow you to start.� And I was kind of like, �Great.� Well, at the end of that � it was crazy. At the end of that year, all this stuff started happening. I had written this book that I got the idea for literally one year after I came into the church. Took six months to write it, you know, self-published it. And around that time, the talks began to, you know, I'd accepted a couple talks and threw them up on YouTube with literally no promotion, no idea. The thumbnail for my conversion story is literally the self-picked thumbnail of YouTube. It's horrible. And the description and the title was just Protestant Becomes becomes Catholic Upload how did that do I think it's got almost half a million views you know and

That was really the beginning of everything for me. You know so it was anyway. It was not long after that that Some people came into my life that made it possible for me to do you've got a lovely setup right now Oh, I like it a lot. right now. Oh, thank you. It's just in my basement, in my house. I mean, you know, I prayed about that too, like, Lord, you know, what should this be? And because I did photography, I understand lighting, I understand that kind of stuff.

And we've tried every little which way we can do to make it be what it is. And I'm finally at the point where I say, you know, I'm happy with how it is right now in that space. Maybe someday I'll have a bigger studio or whatever. But the truth is, like you mentioned, I just don't want to. I would receive that, but I don't want to make that happen. Yeah. So all this started for me like in 2020. And it's just grown in different ways. I do a lot of parish missions and so travel and speak.

I've written two books now and do the YouTube stuff. And I kind of questioned whether I should do like these in-person interviews, because you're already doing these. I'm like, I don't need, the world doesn't need another Matt friend. I'm like, well, I'm not doing what you do. I'm doing some kind of different,

I'm focusing more on conversion stories, you know? And what I've learned is, so interesting, I've learned that when I keep that focus, it doesn't matter if my guest is really well known or not known at all. The biggest video that I've done was a person who has literally no social media following at all, has no presence at all. He's a young dad who is a theology professor at a small Catholic school. He came over to my

house for dinner one night, and I said, let's just film an interview. And we did, and it was the first one I ever did like that. And it just blew up, you know, and that's, that's what it's been. And meanwhile, other people that have a little bit more notoriety, you know, have great conversations, but they haven't had the same impact. You know? Well, it's funny. I had Gabby after hours. Oh, yeah. Wonderful. I brought him out. Yeah. And I love that his episode has more views than Jordan Peterson's. Yeah. No offense to the good doctor. Yeah. I want his episode to have more views too, but you know. Yeah. That blows me away, you know?

I mean, I was watching that when he came on. I'm like, dude, you know, I had Gabe come out. And one of the things I love about it, and I'm sure you're the same way too, is I just love getting to meet people and hang out with them. Yeah. It's been awesome. No, and I think that's something people said that to me

in the beginning, maybe not with this, but with other things. Like back in the day, I started this sort of website that educated people about the dangers of pornography and things like that. And I was trying to decide, should I do something like this? And I remember someone saying to me, well, I mean, does it exist? Because you don't want to reinvent the wheel.

And I think, no, you should not be too worried about re-inventing. I mean, I can see how that advice could be good. Yeah. But if you need a car, you're going to need more than one wheel. If you're going to need a tank, you might need a whole series of things. So I'm thrilled that you're doing interview shows,

that Lila's doing interview shows, that if someone out there is like, well, maybe I wouldn't mind talking to people in my area. Do it. Yeah. Let's flood YouTube with beautiful conversion stories. That's how I feel. We need more, not less.

Sometimes people that wanna do rosary things will contact me because of our daily live stream that we still do. And they'll be like, hey, Keith, we wanna do a rosary thing. Can we team up? And I'll say, no, because you're supposed to do your thing. You know, it's not because I, it's not because I'm like, no, this is my territory. Yeah. It's because I'm like, no, I do it at this time. You should do it at a different time. Like to me, you know, we talked about the rosary crew briefly. We'd been doing it for five years now.

What I want to see happen with that is I wanna see like little chapters get started up by people. So we're multiplying it, you know, and it's becoming larger. And I feel like that with the Catholic space, I'm just, I'm super sensitive to the idea of, of not trying to be another version of somebody. And I think that's important too, because I think we're wired that way sometimes.

We see somebody that does something that we admire and we go, oh, how do I be like that? Totally. And that's totally understandable. But I remember someone saying to me at one point when I started speaking, like, just don't be, don't be a Jason Everett knockoff or a Scott Hahn knockoff. Just be, it was actually Christoph Anik who said to me,

just go out there and be big awkward you. I'm like, oh, I could do that. I could do that. Yeah. That's exactly the point. And that's what I love about YouTube. And I love that about this space is, you can do whatever you want.

And when people try to tell me what I should do, I always just encourage them and say, man, maybe you should do that. You seem really passionate about that. That's what I tell them. I'm like, because I will have people that will reach out to me and say, well, you really should do the rosary this way, or you should do this, or you need to start the thing like that. And I'm just usually like, it sounds to me like God's put that on your heart, maybe you should do it. And you know, I don't know if that happens, but but I think we need more not less But what we also need is is is to do it well

You know we need to honor what we're doing to make it the best that we can be And I think that's part of being that good steward with what God's given us, you know, and man You've certainly done that, you know And I think that I'm excited to see where this continues to go for you, as you know. Or if it stops now, that's okay too. May the Lord use these little interviews to bring in who He wants to bring in. Again, it's a lot of pressure taken off when you're like, well, Jesus, you do it. I remember listening to the founder, not the founder, but he was the head of Life Team back in the day. Okay.

If you remember them, maybe you don't. Do you remember Life Teen? I think I was a Protestant pastor back in the day, so. It's, yeah, yeah. But I think I heard of it. Well, anyway, someone said to him, do you realize that you're only in, and it was something like 30% of parishes?

I don't know the exact number. And he said there was this weight that just fell off his shoulders. He went, ah, awesome. Like, are we supposed to be in every parish? I don't think so. And it was almost like it was the opposite, he realized. And so I think something similar, you know,

people are watching right now and they have their own YouTube channel and they get a hundred views or 200 views or a million views. It's like, okay, that'll do. What are you supposed to reach everybody? Is that your goal? Like every human being with eyeballs has to watch your show. No. So whatever it is, it's like, okay, that'll do. But are you supposed to reach everybody? Is that your goal? Like every human being with eyeballs has to watch your show. No, so whatever it is, it can be, and the Lord can use it.

He can use it and He can work through you, but you have to have, again, it goes back to that whole thing of gratitude, somebody and not being entitled. Sometimes we'll do this, and I'm just speaking for myself, you'll do something and you'll think, because I did this, it'll do this. And I'm just speaking for myself. You'll do something and you'll think, because I did this, it should do this.

And then when it doesn't, we get mad. Or I get mad and go, oh, but I spent this money to bring this person out, or I did this, or I made that, or that looks really cool, or I put that light over there, or I bought that lens, or whatever. It looks awesome, this or that. Now, therefore, this should happen. And if it doesn't, we can get worked out.

And I've talked to a lot of young creators or new creators who they step into this space and they get frustrated very fast because they don't understand that this isn't something that is guaranteed. You can't just make a video and have a YouTube channel. That's why, back to what we said earlier, I think it's so crucial that you do, it sounds like a cliche, but cliches are cliches

for a reason, that you do what you love. Cause when I started my podcast, Patreon didn't yet exist. So there was no clue in my mind about making money through people supporting. I also didn't know two years into YouTube that you could make money on YouTube. Two years it took? I hadn't even signed up. I didn't know. You didn't that you could make money on YouTube. Two years it took?

I hadn't even signed up. I didn't know. You didn't monetize? No, I had no idea because I'm an idiot. That's hilarious. I was walking with Cameron Batuzzi. He's like, are you kidding me? I'm like, how do you do it?

I want to know how to do that. That's so funny. My point was, I think the reason I never got frustrated and this isn't, and I, if I started it today, maybe I would get frustrated because I'd be seeing how people are kind of making a following or making a living doing it, right? Because I had no clue that that was even an option. I was just excited to do what I love doing. Like I wanna have conversations with people.

Yeah. I love doing that, you know? And I love to get better at that. And so, yeah, I mean, that it's hard advice to give to people, especially as you say, like when you said you've got over 100,000, what are you at now? I think it's like 115 or something like that. Yeah, so I know it sounds like it might sound patronizing

to say to people who are just starting out, like, don't worry about the numbers. But if you do, or how about this? You can worry about the numbers, but you'll just get tired quicker and just frustrated quicker. You will. And you'll never, I mean, so I don't know. I remember, I remember thinking, okay, when, when can I quit worrying about this? You know? And I remember thinking, okay, when I get

to a hundred thousand subscribers, something, and I sort of, it wasn't that I was like trying to outsmart that. It was just, I was trying to negotiate with the bad part of myself yeah to say you can shut up now yeah you know because I really want that guy to shut up okay yeah so the part of me that's that wants to compare myself to other people or to whatever whatever whatever I don't like that guy so I finally when I when I got the when I got the plaque or whatever I was finally able just to say all right shut up you can shut up now. So honestly, at this point in time, I don't even give a flying rip anymore. I don't care.

Because I'm like, and because what's next? Maybe YouTube builds that. You're not gonna get the other one until you hit a million. Well, that is it, isn't that crazy? There's nothing between that and that. And what is it anyway? It's a piece of whatever. But it's funny, because before 100,000,

you think once you get 100,000, that'll be fine. And now I'm pushing 700,000, I'm like, I'd love to get to a million. But, you think once you get 100,000, that'll be fine. And now I'm pushing 700,000. I'm like, I'd love to get to a million. But I know that once I get to a million, I'll be like, well, that'll satisfy me for a little bit. It's like everything. I remember when your channel hit 50,000 subscribers. I remember when that happened.

And I don't. I do. I think it had to have been like in 2020, 2021, something like that. But I remember when that happened, I was like, Stel, did you see this? Matt, Brad just got 50,000 subscribers. That's amazing.

But then when you hit it, then I was like, ah, you know, what the heck took so long? But I try not to get hung up on that. And the reality is, if I cared about that that much, I would have to change everything I do about my YouTube channel, because the stuff I spend the most time on Gets very low views compared to what it should I you know we talked early

I guess back to the beginning of this conversation about how to grow a YouTube channel. I think both of us know that and You've done it a different way. You've done it without doing the let me tell you what that guy said You know, let me tell you know I fall into it and God have mercy But that's never been like the main part of your life, you know, that's never been what you've been known for. Whenever I did it, it always felt like an uncomfortable thing to put on. Yeah. And I don't think I had bad intentions, like most of us don't think as we're sinning, hey.

I think I was like, yeah, this has got to be... That's the other temptation, like just because you've got a platform doesn't mean you need to say everything that irritates you about the church. Oh gosh. Yeah, I remember that. I made that video a long time ago about Strickland because, and it was a- What was that?

It was a video about, I just called it Hot Take. You know, the Bishop Strickland perspective. And what did you say? I just said, I don't have one. Oh, I remember that. Because- I remember that now, that. Because people were emailing, what are you, you gotta make a video about this. You gotta react to this.

That's why your point in your video is no, I don't. I owe you nothing. I don't have to do that. Yeah. And to me that felt really good just to shout that into the camera of, because I could, you know, there are a lot of, I have a lot of opinions, Matt.

There are a lot of things I could say about things and about people and about all that stuff. I could, but I just don't want that, I don't wanna give into that, you know? So the part of me that's like more subscribers, more views, you know, more supporters or whatever, I just have to shut that guy up, you know? So when I hit the 100,000, I was like,

okay, maybe I can shut him up with that now. So leave me alone, dude. We hit, and it's almost like a joke to myself. Like we hit that, okay, a big deal. Cause we've, I know it's nothing. I know that it means literally nothing. But I mean, I'm proud of it in one sense, but it hasn't changed my life.

I don't walk around with a different air, like, oh, by the way, I don't like wear it around my neck, you know? So it's like big deal. But I think sometimes people when they're starting out, they have this predetermined outcome. That's their thing. You and I both, when we got into this, we didn't have that predetermined outcome already set up. You just wanted to talk to people and have good conversations. I just wanted to share how happy I was about being Catholic. And that's, I think, the beauty of it. And here's what I want to do. And I think you're there, I think. I want to keep that. I want to always be that guy. I want to always be the guy that's like, man, I'm most excited about becoming Catholic and what

that means. So let's talk about that. So when people come in that are like, man, I'm most excited about becoming Catholic and what that means, so let's talk about that. So when people come in that are like, oh, you should do this, or you should do that, or hey, I wrote a book, let's talk about it, or whatever, I have to, I find myself just swatting that away. That's good. Because I want to stay focused on what am I doing that's helping people on that journey, you know? That's what I want to do more than anything. And sometimes I get off track, sometimes I'm stumbling through that, and I can look at things and go, well, that really didn't have anything to do with that, that was dumb. But I think we have to give ourselves permission to do that too, because your analogy earlier

about the spiritual life, if my morning prayer isn't standing up and exactly perfect, then I'm not going to do it. We could do the same thing in this space. If I haven't nailed this perfectly, I should just quit. I think we have to give ourselves that grace too, which again goes back to, I'm going to feel more freedom to do that if I get your support. Like if you or any other person on YouTube or whatever, if we support each other, if I see someone that I respect who just says, Keith, that was an awesome video, man, you know, that gives me the freedom to feel like, okay, but if I know that if I just violate some kind of Catholic dude code out

there by saying not the perfect thing 100% of the time on an interview with someone on the spot, they're going to lambast me and make critique videos and reaction videos and all this stuff. Then it makes me more timid. It kind of cages me a little bit. And I don't want to fall into that. So what I'm saying is like, we need to encourage each other so we can like, man, you know what, Matt, you got that hunch you want to pursue? Do it. You know, you got that thing that's on your heart that you want to speak out, but you're a little afraid of how it might go over? Just do it. We're here for you.

We got your back. You know, you're part of the team. You're part of the crew here. And we're gonna lovingly build each other up in this space because we've got a world out there that hates us. And that's who we really need to be worried about. Not one another tearing each other down. They're tearing us down left and right we need to like lock arms as

creators, you know and and and move into that space with knowing that hey I'm gonna have support not be destroyed I think it's really important to that We have a few people in our life that we go to and give them permission to call us out. Oh, that's hard. Huge. But it's huge.

I would give that to you. I would give that to you as well. I'd be really honored if you called me up one day and went, Hey, I love you. I'm not sure if this is where you want to go. Like, I don't want you to call me up and yell at me, but you know what I mean? But I've had people who are like, Hey dude,

I think you got that wrong. I'm like, what do you mean? Or, yeah But I've had people who are like, hey, dude, I think you got that wrong. I'm like, what do you mean? Or yeah, I've had a few. And in the beginning, you don't like it sometimes, because of my pride. But then later, you go, that must have taken some kind of cojones to call me and do that. So I have a few people in my life

who have explicitly said, please, I beg you. Praise the Lord for those guys and girls, whoever they are. Cause you just said at the start of the show, like we don't have a lot of accountability. We don't have any accountability. We really don't. That's the scary thing. Of course we can disagree with the people who correct us,

but it's important that we put, and not just people in our life that we know will agree with us all the time, but people who will be like, like okay this guy's pretty objective Yeah, that's I've been really blessed with that because you know I mentioned earlier You know the people that came into my life that made this possible You know it's like the stewardship people that brought me into this when I was working two jobs And I sat across from from from David and he was just like what would your life look like if you didn't have to do that

And I'm like what do you mean and? And he was just like, what would your life look like if you didn't have to do that? And I'm like, what do you mean? And he brought me into this world, you know, into this team with, with guys like Devin, you know, who are there and others that are in my life that, you know, they do meet with me and we do talk about, and I know that if I step out of line, there's going to be a hammer coming down, you know, and, but it's a good, but I know that it's a loving hammer. I know it's not like, all right, they don't have an agenda.

They're there to help. But we all need people like that in our lives, you know? And I think if those people, because here's what can happen. We all want to please somebody, don't we? And it just depends on who we're looking to please. And if you're chronically online in a toxic environment and you see the people that love to criticize, subconsciously you're going to want to please them because if they don't

criticize me, that means I'm doing something right. So then what you do is you start to give them that power in your life and you think, okay, well, they've criticized XYZ for these particular things. I can't do that. So because I don't want them to criticize me because they're the ones they're the criticizers in my life right that that can so subtly happen to us but if you surround yourself with people that you know but here's the problem they don't love you and they don't know you well oftentimes they're complete strangers on the internet.

So if you have people that do love you and know you and that give you the benefit of the doubt. That affirm you. That affirm, and you know that they want what's best for you ultimately, then you can trust them when they come to you and say, yeah, I'm not so sure about that. What are you thinking with this?

Or maybe this isn't the right time or you know, I mean and that we need to give thanks for. It's hard sometimes. It's hard but honestly I'd feel more offended if I found out that you saw something I did that was definitely wrong. I'm like, I just didn't want to say anything. Like what? I'd be frustrated with you. Like please I need that. Yeah. Because well I know what I'm doing. I know what I'm doing. I'm the same way. I think what I'm still looking for in all of this is a mentor. I'm looking for someone that has been where I am that can walk me through the next 10 years of my life, or this part of my ministry journey or whatever, you know

People talk about spiritual direction, you know this and that and I've never found that you know I've had good godly people in my life that have helped me but I'm just that's something I'm not seeing pray for that for me Because what I would love more than anything Is to find some people who have been where I am now and have come through it that I could say who have been where I am now and have come through it, that I could say, please help me to see what mistakes I'm making. When I was in the photography world,

one of the most helpful things was, and you'd pay big money for this, to sit down with the photographer that you respected that was a level that you aren't, and for them to look over your work and critique you. And I remember I hired this guy to come in and do that one time and paid this guy thousands of dollars to come up to our studio and do a critique session

and whatever because everybody else was like, oh yeah, it's great, it's great, it's great, it's great, it's great. And I'm like, no, it's really not. Like it could be a lot better, you know? And he was able to sit down. And I remember where he told me, he said, pick your best 10 images.

I only want to see 10 images. And I'm like, all right. My wife and I did this too. We had a couple of friends, we got together and we did this and we got our 10 images together. And we thought he's gonna just go my work is done this is amazing here's your money back you guys are amazing like how did you do that you know the second we pulled up the images on the screen he was like okay boom boom boom boom boom boom boom i mean it was just like he like in his breath because he had been everywhere that we'd

been and he was able like i learned so much through that experience. It made me such a better photographer. It changed my life in that way. And I would love that experience in this space, but it's hard to find someone that will do that that you know loves you like that. Are you talking about how you convey what you're conveying, how you interview people, or are you talking about how you convey what you're conveying, how you interview people,

or are you talking about the technicalities of lighting and filming and all of it? I think for me, what I'm looking for more is the big picture, okay? The big picture of what should you really be focusing on in your ministry, you know? Because I'm a little scattered right now with what I'm doing, and I think that it would be helpful to have someone who could help me sort of look down and say, okay. And I have a couple specific issues that, you know, I don't get into publicly that I would love to talk to you. I'll talk to you offline about it. That, or I could talk about it online since we're doing this interview. I don't care. That I wrestle with continually and I go, sometimes I go, how does this guy handle that?

Or how does this woman handle that? I don't know what the right thing to do is. And should I really be focusing so much on this part of what I do? Am I missing the boat with what I'm really supposed to be doing? So I think that for me, it's a little bit more of an upper level thing to where I want someone

to look down from a 30,000 foot view and help me sort through some of that stuff. Um, but, and I'm always open to helpful suggestions about, Hey, you know, you could do this to make your thumbnails better, or you could do this to make your lighting better or whatever. Cause I, I certainly don't think I've got all of that figured out. Yeah. Yeah. These are interesting times. I mean, when I was a kid, when you were a kid, you probably didn't think that one day you grow up and essentially run your own thing.

I think everyone just assumed that they would be an employee of some else. Absolutely. But increasingly, and I understand that most people are still employees of somebody else, but increasingly, there's this new crop of quote unquote influences who have no accountability and no one to tell them what they don't wanna hear except everybody in the comment section. You know, that's an interesting thing. It is, isn't it?

You almost wonder how long can that sustain itself and will the church someday offer a solution? My thought is, might sound like a cynical take, but people go where the money is easiest to be had. Always, at all times. That's it. All right. So if 50 years ago, the money was easiest to be had in doing X, Y, and Z,

right, and maybe one's morality might keep them, keep them from doing certain things, but provided something wasn't immoral, then we'll take the easiest way to get the most money. I think today the internet is the way to do that for a lot of people, whether it's selling things on Etsy or Fiverr or YouTube or Instagram, right? So as that happens, I think what you're gonna see is

a vacuum that we actually needed, that we actually needed people to build our bookshelves and fix our toilets and fix our swimming pools and whatever. And those prices are gonna go through the roof. So if I want someone to do any kind of helpful labor for me that I kind of need, like I need someone to fix my fridge. I don't need to listen to Matt Fradd

talk about whatever he's talking about, but I need someone to fix my fridge. I don't need to listen to Matt Fradd talk about whatever he's talking about, but I need someone to fix my fridge. I think money is gonna flood over there. And then, so I think what we're gonna start seeing is more and more people gravitating to the real and less of the virtual, the kind of the trades because that's where the money will be.

I think that's a great point. I also think, and then my last point, is that as AI increases and gets more sophisticated, we're not gonna be sure if we're actually watching a real podcast or not. Oh man, that's scary. That the individual looking at me, I can't be sure whether that's actually him or not

because it just mimics his face. Just like it can learn your voice, it can now learn your face and facial expressions and when to put those facial expressions to certain points that you're making. Of course, you're not making them, you just told AI what to say for you. And then what you'll start to see happen is people

will actually prefer to have a more grainy visual image perhaps, less 4K because that will signal this is authentic. But then people will get onto that and that too will be part of the AI thing and at that point I think we're gonna see prices go through the roof for in-person entertainment like stand-up comics and bands and poetry readings What do you think I? This thought just hit me of like can you imagine a world and you sort of just laid it out where a person types in, show me an interview between Matt Fradd and Winston Churchill on this topic

that lasts three hours, go. And then they spit out an interview that's a virtual face to face interview between yourself and a historical figure. I mean, my daughter showed me this video on YouTube the other day of like paintings of historical figures coming to life and looking around and it was so wild. I hope it goes the direction where you're saying where in-person contact becomes more valuable to people because my fear is that it won't. Yeah. My fear is that will become more isolated and more segmented because that's what we can control and that's less threatening.

And we all know that when you get into the world of the real, it never matches up to the fantasy. Fantasy always beats reality. So, I mean, we've all heard the saying, never meet your heroes, because when you meet that person, they always let you down. So imagine if you could meet them

without having to meet them. So I hope that eventually that we go that direction. I think we're in a moment in time right now. I think we're in a snapshot of this space where ministry, especially in the Catholic world, is being done this way. I hope the church somehow has an answer to this. You know, I mean, Brandon and I were talking about this yesterday, like, how wouldn't it be wild if there was a, like, almost a diocese that itself was the internet,

and there were—because us laypeople, like, you know, we talked about, we have no accountability ultimately, other than whether people watch our videos or not. But there's no one who can come over me or you ultimately and say, you can't do this anymore. But let's just pretend for a second, there was something that the church created, a digital diocese or whatever, and they appointed people to this diocese, whether it be priests, deacons, or maybe they even had lay evangelists or whatever, and they had the resources, they had the oversight, they had the ability to do that, and they wanted to, and they wanted to do it well, and they brought these people into this space to say, okay, here are the people that we have set into this world to go through this.

This is kind of Bishop Barron's idea several years ago, remember? I know. I know. I know. I remember him talking about it. But. And he got blowback for that. And I think in an ideal world, I like the idea. But I also, man, I know as Catholics,

we're meant to be subject to the bishop, let's say. And so if the bishop doesn't like what I'm doing, then I suppose it would follow that I shouldn't be speaking in the name of Catholicism in any way, shape or form, I suppose. But the problem is who can say that, you know? I also think that part of the reason a lot of people are desiring a beautiful liturgy and the reason they know so much about the church is because the lay people are doing, they are standing up.

I agree. I agree. I mean, and teaching others and so to put the kibosh on that, that's, that sounds scary. And then the other thing is, you know, the internet, the Catholic influencer culture, whatever we call it, just becomes like a shootout, you know, and it's like, we just, you're going to do what you're going to do. And if you, if people watch, they watch, if they watch if they don't they don't and and I tell people that all the time like you don't have to watch this no one's putting a gun to your head if you don't like what I'm saying or if you don't like what this other person is saying or doing on the internet just turn it off stop watching you don't have to and

that's my answer to a lot of the critics you know out there that are always criticizing certain people. I'm like, if you really hate that so much, stop drawing attention to it. Just turn it off. So there's sort of an accountability built in there. But unfortunately, our base human desires oftentimes aren't the right ones.

And if that's what works, that's where we go. So you said earlier, we go where the money flows, but what's the currency of today? Attention? See, that's it. You know, so because I was in as you were speaking, I was thinking of an analogy between how maybe say 2030 years ago in the United States, people were not as health, health conscious as they were today. And you could imagine someone healthy back then saying, Oh, I hope this changes. You know, I hope things get better.

And someone's saying, I don't think it will. I think people love bad food and they're gonna continue to eat it. All right, well that doesn't seem to have happened. It seems like there's a big movement now of people who are like, I don't wanna be fat. I don't think people should be unhealthy because of the food they eat,

the poison that's been foisted on us, et cetera. But my fear is that our pride and our desire for attention is much stronger than our desire for high fructose corn syrup and if that is the case then we're screwed yeah maybe which i think goes back to like what we have to do is find a way to encourage each other to be the best we can be to find a way and you you know, here's the thing, you and I, I can't stop anybody from doing anything, okay? That's never my goal anyway, like something like whatever. But what I can do, and I need to do a better job of this.

I need to do a better job of going out of my way to be encouraging and publicly praise people and going out of my way to support people, that I do see something that I think aligns with that. And I think if we all started doing that, again, I think that's going to be the high tide that raises all the ships. Truthly is a groundbreaking Catholic AI app built to help you know, live, and defend the Catholic faith with clarity and confidence.

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Truthly is transforming the way we learn, share and live our faith. One question, one course and one prayer at a time. Start your seven day free trial today. Download Truthly on the App Store. All right, we got some questions from our local members. Max says, just want to express my gratitude to Keith for his Catholic feedback interviews.

By the way, that's a terrific name. Oh, thank you. Right? Yeah. Because of the amplifiers? Yeah. I just caught on. Yeah, all right.

Just made that connection. I was real proud of that. It is really good. It's funny. You just need like a little thing, don't you? Just like a little connection and it seems it works. All right. He finds them very moving and have been very encouraging in my own move from Protestantism to Catholicism. Thank you, Max. Glad to hear that. All right. Adam says, did you hit a point where it felt disobedient to not be Catholic? 100% I did.

And that was a magic point when I realized that it wasn't any more about just a hmm, this or that. Because I'm living in that world where it's like Jesus is showing you these options. It got to a point where he was just like, you know, you want me, here I am. And that was kind of the linchpin for me, was when I felt like I was more afraid of disobeying God because of what I would miss out on. There's a point at first when you're afraid of disobeying God because you're afraid of what I would miss out on. There's a point at first when you're afraid of disobeying God because you're afraid of what you're going to miss out on, okay, to keep what you have, right? Think of the guy who sells everything for the treasure hidden in the field. He's like,

what's more important to me, what I have or this treasure over here in this field? I really like this. The rich young ruler is like, this is better than Jesus. But then there's a point when you go, man, I know what's over there is better. Do I have the guts to let go of this? To me, it was like, I'm afraid of what I'm not. For once, I was afraid of like, what if I become Catholic? What am I going to miss out on with my, you know, my career, my ministry? But then it became, when I saw how great it was, what will I miss out on if I don't do this? I miss out on being Catholic. I miss out on what God has in store. So then it was like, yeah, I don't want to. I miss out on being Catholic. I miss out on what God has in store.

So then it was like, yeah, I don't want to be disobedient. Similar, but not the same. You know how we can sometimes be tempted to keep our options open all the time. And I remember thinking that as I was discerning marriage, you know, because the temptation is like to keep your options open. Like there's always someone out there, like maybe you could marry somebody and, you somebody and look at how many possibilities there are. But you keep all your options open, like you miss this. Like you actually don't get anything. It's different, I know, with your situation, but.

100%. But to get into a place of disobedience, I think everybody kind of walks through that in a different speed. But eventually you will get there. If you're a person who's discerning Catholicism, God isn't just offering you a different color carpet. He's offering you the fullness of the faith. He's offering you His very flesh and blood. He's offering you Himself, and there will come a point, and the Catechism talks about this, you know, when it talks about, people say,

do you have to be Catholic to go to heaven or whatever? You know, if you have that revelation that it's the truth, you are obligated to follow it. Where that comes into play in that journey, I can't say. I can only say for me, I got to that point and then it was about, all right, I couldn't remain out of the church and still be a Christian anymore and be faithful. Paul says, what is the practical role of the average late Catholic in apologetics? How much are we called or expected to know? That's a great question. I think the role, you have to separate that from the world of Catholic apologetics because the reality is we should all be in the world of Catholic apologetics. We should all, every single one of us, should be prepared to give a defense for the joy that we

have, right? That's what the Scriptures teach us, to give an answer, right? That's what apologetics means, is an argument, like an apology, a defense, an explanation. Every Catholic should be able to do that. Now, whether that means that you have to understand all of the arguments, so to speak, there's different levels of apologetics. There's the apologetics that's all about arguments. There's the apologetics that's all about devotion, and there's the apologetics that's just about example. And we're all called to the first one, or to the third one. We're all called to be an apologist in the way we live our lives. So, I think we have to start there and recognize that if people look at our lives and

they're not drawn to the Catholic faith as a result, then we're not living up to what we're supposed to be. But does that mean that you have to become an expert on everything? I don't think so, but it couldn't hurt to learn a little bit more. And I think the way that you discern that is you have to ask yourself, what are the questions that keep coming to me over and over from people? If in your conversation, because they're seeing your faith and they want to learn more about it, they keep asking you things about Mary or the papacy or the Eucharist, then do you need to have answers for those things? This is a good question that I'm about to ask you because it came up in our interview.

Marty Stafnik says, do you ever feel burnt out from discussing the same apologetic topics repeatedly? You know what? Yes and no. I feel burned out if I feel like I have to make a YouTube video about it. But I don't feel burned out when I'm sitting across from a real person who doesn't know

or who is just discovering this for the first time. And I think that's a key. If all we're doing is just making our apologetics about an argument, and I have to put out this argument, then yeah, we're going to get burned out. But if our apologetic is about meeting a need in love, which is what ministry is, that's a whole different deal. So I think we have to get out of this mindset of, I'm here to put forth my argument, and then instead have the mindset of, I'm here to help someone discover the truth. It's about them, it's not about me. And I never get burned

out talking to people sitting down about this stuff, but I often do get burned out if I feel like, hey, someone made a video, react to it. Yeah. You know what I mean? I do, yeah. Marcus Flavius says, I have found quite a few Protestant friends at my campus. We have a Bible group together and connected really well. Should I try to help them find the Catholic Church? Please give some concrete advice, what approaches could be helpful and which to avoid. 100%, yes, you should try to help them find the Catholic Church. And the way that you're going

to do that is by showing them devotion and joy in your own life. Oftentimes we do one or the other, but we need both. You need to show them that devotion and that joy so they can see the beauty of the faith in your life. I think your Bible study, you have to navigate through that. I don't know the dynamic of that Bible study. Is it one guy who gets up and just tells you what the truth? You know, like the Bible study leader, if so, that could be a little problematic when you come across areas of disagreement. If you're not allowed to voice those or whatever, if that's going to open up a can of worms and you're going to get in trouble, you might have to deal with that.

But if it's one of those Bible studies where you all say, hey, let's open this and talk about it together. Now you've got an opportunity to share your perspective with them from a Catholic point of view, which is going to lead to those conversations. So I would say that your involvement in that Bible study is going to depend on the dynamic of it. Hunter says, what has your best place you've camped while living in a van? What was your best place you've camped while living in a van? And what's been the craziest experience so far? Oh my gosh, the best place?

I would say a place called Hanna Park near Jacksonville, Florida was my favorite place that we ever camped. It was awesome. Second place would be near Corpus Christi, Texas. I don't want one of those islands. The craziest story. Well, probably when we broke down right after I interviewed Marcus Grodi at the coming home network offices

and we were driving home on the interstate right outside of Columbus, Ohio. And we broke down on the side of the interstate and we're stuck there for four days. That was pretty crazy. Four days? Yeah. How? Because it was a Saturday morning. Yeah. And of course, nobody was open. No mechanics were open until Monday. They ordered the wrong part, which they didn't get it fixed until Tuesday. So Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, we left, we got to leave. So we were stuck at this little, little dumpy motel

on the side of the interstate. Is this you and your wife? My wife and I and my son, Drew, was with us on that trip. And he had to get home for, he was taking a motorcycle safety course and he had to get home. He had just been overseas in Qatar for his military deployment.

And we convinced him to go with us on this trip. And when we broke down, he's like, I gotta get home. So he literally hired an Uber to drive him to the airport. He didn't even really have a ticket. And then he got to the airport in Columbus, stayed at the airport on the rooftop all night until he could get a flight the next morning to fly back to Chicago

and then had to have somebody drive to Chicago and then drive him back home. It was a huge, crazy deal, but he was determined. But we were stuck there, which was kind of wild. Do you sleep in the van? Yeah, it's a motorhome van. It's like a little Sprinter van with a motorhome in it. And it was funny because we're broke down. We literally have no transportation. We walked from the mechanic to this hotel. We have nothing. We're stuck there. And all these

people are that because we do our live stream. Oh, there's this beautiful church over here, over here. I'm like, I don't have a car. Somebody come pick me up, you know? But everyone's telling me all the places I need to go, you know? We're like, well, if we can't walk there, we're not going. Elias says, have you noticed a trend of Protestant apologists using equivocation when talking about the sacraments? I hope that's the right word, they say. Some apologists will say they claim they believe in a kind of sacrament, confession, Eucharist, etc., but then when it comes to how Catholics practice it, they fall back on the old ways of denouncing Catholics as idolaters or legalists.

It makes it difficult to argue the Catholic position because they'll just say, oh, I agree with you about this, but then refuse the practical application of the sacraments. Have you noticed this? Yeah, I think the best place to notice that would probably be with the Eucharist, where you will have a Protestant say, well, we believe it's the real presence of Jesus, too. But when you really dig deeper, you discover the differences. So for example, you might say that, but then ask them, well, what do you do with the Eucharist after the service is over? Do you just throw it away? Do you dump it down the drain? Like, what happens to it? And what happens in your mind if you drop some of it? Or who can receive it? Do you equate that to what St. Paul talks about in

1 Corinthians about receiving unworthily? So, oftentimes the distinctions become more apparent when you dig down a little bit deeper and ask some of those practical questions. But yeah, I've seen that. Now, of course, with things like marriage and baptism, there can be an equivocation if it's done according to the proper form and matter. But when you get into things like the Eucharist or confession, like you'll hear that sometimes, oh, well, I confess my sins to my buddy, like the Eucharist or confession, like you'll hear that sometimes, oh, well, I confess my sins to my buddy, you know, that's the same thing. And I will always say, well, okay, well, does your buddy have the authority to extend forgiveness on God's behalf? And they'll go, yes. And then I'll say, well, does he have the authority to not extend forgiveness on God's behalf? Well, no, of course

not. Well, see, that's only part of that verse in John 20-23. Whoever sins you forgive are forgiven, whoever sins you retain are retained. So they oftentimes won't go all the full way there because they'll say, well, yeah, we can be forgiven because, you know, confess your sins one to another that you may be healed, but without the sacramental aspect of it, we lack the authority that goes behind it. Okay, Agile Elephant says, I am currently studying John Henry Newman. I would enjoy understanding the impact of this man's thought on Keith, if such was the case. What works and ideas of Newman were particularly influential? I would say none that I'm aware of because I never really read him as I was on my journey into the church.

So I'm not going to pretend to be a Newman expert. So I'm going to go with none. Good, good answer. Sue Ann, 48, says, I grew up an evangelical Protestant but was received into the Catholic Church 10 years ago as an ex-Protestant I feel specially placed to reach evangelicals for the Catholic Church But at the same time I am very aware as cradle Catholics may not be of the extreme fear and suspicion of all things Catholic that Protestants often grow up with the Dom the denomination I came from has a particularly long list of Martyrs at the hands of Catholics

at the time of the Reformation. The Mennonite Brethren, a brand of Anabaptists. Any advice on how to navigate that? Yeah, I think the answer there is to really dig into the truth of those things. There's a lot of things that are put out there as true that are not. Now, I'm not saying that there weren't people that were, you know, persecuted by the church in some way, but I know a lot of that is exaggerated. You know, I get told these figures of, you know, 98 million people, and I'm like, are you sure it wasn't 97 million? And people just throw these figures out there. And the other thing you got to remember, too, is there was a lot of persecution at the hands of

reformers too. The reformers drowned the Anabaptists as well. So, if your criteria for whether or not you're going to be part of a group here from Protestant or Catholicism is they never persecuted the other, then you're stuck because that's happened all the way around. So, I think you have to dig into that. Plus, you'll also learn the nuance of what the church does versus the civil authorities that we're doing, because it wasn't as if you walk into a Catholic mass and the priest was standing there with an axe chopping people's heads off, you know? These things that took place were done by the civil authorities. Now, they were linked to Catholicism in some way, but it's not quite the picture that is presented as though the Catholics were running around, like, hunting people down, finding them in their basement, reading the Bible, and executing them for that. So, I think that you have to really look into that and know the truth

behind those things. Glotto Jr. says, what's the best way to convince Protestants that God instituted one church without calling them heretics? I think it goes back to the question of what are the claims being made by your church today? Does your church claim that it's directly descended to the Apostles founded by Jesus? There's not too many churches that even make that claim. So if you're going to talk about the idea, and then the other thing is, should there only be one church? I think it's easier to get there. One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

I will build my church. You know, Matthew 18 about the example of church discipline, how can that be lived out if there's more than one church? I think it's easier to get to the place where we say, yes, there should be one church. Then the question is, which one is it? How many even make the claim that they are that church? Because a lot of the Protestant churches, they don't even, they reject that premise. To them, church is just anybody who's a believer anywhere is part of the church. So, if you're even saying, I want a church that connects back to the apostles, you're already in a smaller, you already have a different premise you're working from, which I think is the correct

premise. But there's very few people who are making that exact claim. But you can look for it in history. You can look back and just look at the objective history of the origins of the Catholic Church to find that there. Christian P. says, do you have any suggestions for those living in rural areas with fewer resources on how to try to get the adult men more engaged in their faith and more active in their parish?" Wow, that's a big question. That's a big question.

I think it starts small with just getting together with some men and talking about it and helping these men take ownership in their faith and in their families, I don't think the answer is a church program where you go, okay, you know, we're going to have a pancake breakfast next week, all the men show up for that, or we're going to have a cigar night next week, all that, like, that's fine. But I think the answer really is to get men to care and to understand their role and then to give them opportunities to exercise that role in the parish.

I think it's pretty hard to do from scratch, but I think that's one of those things that men have to step up and own those roles and move into them. But how do you start from scratch? Well, it starts by going to where they are and gathering some men that are like-minded, that want to do that together, and even just start with something as a men's group, a men's Bible study, a men's catechesis or something like that,

to where you can begin to build that community. And then once you have that community, it's kind of like, okay, guys, what can we do to really help shepherd this parish along under the authority of our priest? I grew up in a very rural town in South Australia, and I'm just trying to apply that question to myself and what may have worked, let's say, to get my dad into the door or something like that. And I think one of the nice things about being Catholic is there are certain things that you can do that don't require any feeling or any spontaneity. So it's not like, hey guys, we're going to get together.

I don't know why I have an American accent when I do that. That's what that was. But you know, there's something neat about being like, hey, we're going to have just a few fellows who are going to do adoration for an hour. Boom. Nothing else happens. You don't have to feel a certain way. You don't have to put on a good face.

Nothing. Just come and kneel down. We're going to pray the Holy Rosary every morning at 7 a.m. And you know, if you can find two other fellas to do that with you, every Friday, 7 a.m. before work, praying the Holy Rosary, and maybe you do that a couple of times, and then maybe you go get a coffee after the Rosary.

And then if the three of you do this for a few weeks, you might say, what if each of us tried to bring one more fella? But then maybe it's sort of like the YouTube thing we were talking about earlier, where it's like, well, if your expectations are sufficiently low, then you can't be upset. It's just three men, that'll do. Two men. Yeah, I think that's great. And anybody can do that. But I think being willing to just start with what you have and form some kind of brotherhood and community around your faith with these men, that will snowball over time. But again, we go back to the whole, is it going to be perfect right away? No. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't do something. So start with one or two guys,

I love it, get together before work one day and pray in the Holy Rosary or go into adoration together and then just see what the Lord does with that. Mike Kupras says, will Keith ever join me on the guitar sometime? I want to jam with you. Sweet. On a slightly more serious note, he says, how has Keith's perspective on music and especially praise and worship changed since his conversion? Good question. My perspective on praise and worship music? I still like praise and worship music. I still like praise and worship music. I really do. My perspective on it though is I don't like it during Mass, right? Now, I go to the Latin Mass typically, so for me, that's praise and worship music too. It's just different, you know, it's just

better. More appropriate for the liturgy. But what, you know, I don't know, I feel like I'm not the guy that's like, oh, like when I, you know, when I see like the Seek Conference or whatever when they're worshiping, I'm not one of those guys like, oh, what are they doing? It's too Protestant. I'm like, no, praise the Lord. I know, I'm like you.

If this is helping these kids worship Jesus in that, and what's interesting is a lot of the lyrics and even some of the Protestant, quote unquote, worship songs make more sense, according to Catholicism, than they realize, because they're all about the presence of God, they're all about being with God. And when you combine that with Eucharistic adoration, you just go, oh, wow, that's cool. So, I guess I think it's fine if you do that in like a non-mass environment, but for me, I don't like anything like that in mass, personally. Joe Ward says,

what would you say has been the biggest topic you find yourself discussing with your Protestant friends and family? Since I converted, my good friends from my old church have essentially gone back to small talk when we used to have such deep theological conversations that he doesn't anymore. I think probably with the ones that will talk about it with me, which I feel like it's good, that's becoming a smaller group of people

because over the years we've sort of gone there and they kind of go, okay, but I just had a had lunch with some of my best friends the other day, I don't see very often, and we got into all this stuff. And it was all having to do with basically how we know what Christianity even is. So, the whole issue of what is the church, how has God chosen to reveal Himself, which becomes a question about Sola Scriptura, and then it turned into, well, who can be saved? The question that was on the table that day was, do you have to be a Roman Catholic to be saved? And we had a fascinating conversation around that. So I have friends that want to talk about that. I don't really have like Protestant friends that

want to talk about weird, you know, things about the liturgy or whatever. It's usually like higher level things, or they'll just ask me questions about, you know, well, do you guys believe this? Or do you guys believe that? But most of the people in my life, I've kind of had those conversations with. So, we don't find ourselves going back to them. We just live our lives out in our faith. So, really the conversation becomes about what's God doing in your life? And I feel the freedom to share that Completely like I don't have to sanitize it for them to offend their Protestant mindset. I don't do that at all I never did that. Yeah, but

And I like that place Matt. I like being at the place where I don't have to make everything an argument Where I can just share this is what God's doing in my life. This is where I'm excited about my faith right now, and this is what's really cool. And I don't have to go, you know, so you can't do that as a Protestant, you know what I mean? So when you can get away from having arguments and just live your life out with, again, joy and devotion, I've found that to be way more edifying. I also think it's important to say to our friends that we're trying to evangelize, or maybe not necessarily explicitly say, but they should know that we want to be their

friends because we love them, not because they're a project we're working on. I remember Batuzi who's coming into the, who's actually officially getting confirmed like by the time this podcast releases. You know, I said that to him, like, of course I want you to convert obviously, but if you don't like, yeah, I love you. Like I enjoy you. You're a cool guy. I love to keep talking. Be weird if you thought that I was only interested in having a friendship with you because I could maybe convert you. But that see the problem is that we have is people think that, but I want to be an apologist, but remember, that's a level of apologetic right there,

is a loving relationship with someone where you are, you're not hiding your faith, you're living it out in front of them, but they're part of your life, and everything doesn't have to turn into an argument. Sometimes the best apologetic is that life that is boldly lived out in Catholicism that isn't attached to a challenge or an argument. Because when we do that too much, people put up the walls to protect themselves from that, and eventually one of those walls is distance. And they say, I don't want to be around you anymore, because every time we're around, we

fight, we argue, and it just doesn't feel good. So I'd rather not get together with you. Or when we do get together, we're just going to say, look, we're not talking about God or our faith. I never want to have a relationship like that, Matt. And I have a lot of relationships with Protestant friends, but I never want to get to a point where they say to me, Keith, you know what, let's not go there. But if I'm combative and challenging in everything I do, that's what will happen. And I know that because it has happened.

So rather, what I want to do is live out my faith and be able to say, hey, man, what's going on in your life? What's the Lord show and then listen and actually be engaged in that and then I Will receive that same opportunity from them and it's been amazing how that approach Has opened so many doors because when people feel that you're a safe person they can share things about totally they might say wow You know what? I've always wondered about that. Yeah. Why do you why do you guys do this? Yeah, Why do you guys do this? Why do you guys do that? I want to give a shout out to Gavin Ortland. Okay.

You know Gavin. I do. I don't know him personally, but. The reason I bring up Gavin at this point in the conversation is I was in Rome, you know, last year. And I saw on his feed that he was going to Rome to give some lectures or something. And so we got together for a coffee.

It was my first time ever meeting him just outside the Vatican. And what I loved about him is we just had a really honest conversation about what it was like being on YouTube, what it was like getting into debates with Catholics or Protestants, depending. And I remember I said a couple of things

that he could have pounced on if he wanted, and he just didn't. And it was just as beautiful, to your point about being safe, I trusted as I was talking to him that if I say, I don't really understand this part of Catholic teaching, I'm trying to, that he wouldn't have like been all weird about it. He would have just went, yeah, okay. Like, and that was okay. Think about what that means, Matt. People who do that And that was, okay. Think about what that means, Matt. People who do that are doing that because they're secure.

Yeah, that's right. When we're always turning everything into an argument about every little thing, that becomes way more about us Yeah, that's right. than them because we have to be right. We've all had the experience of the Jehovah's Witness or the Mormon missionary at our door, and they're there for one purpose and good for them,

but they're not there to get to and good for them, you know, but they're not there to get to know you, except that they want to try to bring you into their faith. And it's awkward, and they know it's awkward, so I think they don't even really do that so much anymore, because people aren't terribly receptive to strangers showing up on their door with Bibles. But you know that unless you're open to their religion, you're not going to let your guard down, because you know that unless you're open to their religion, you're not gonna let your guard down because you know that they're gonna pounce or, and it's, that's, and so I think in that position

of being defensive, you wouldn't naturally express any doubt in your own religion or anything like that or any interest in theirs because you know what they're there for. So just don't be weird. I think that's something I've grown in, I think with Cameron Batuzzi from the Begetgo. It was like, of course I want you to be Catholic.

Like obviously, as opposed to pretending, well, I'm just asking questions and I don't really care that much. And I mean, you know, but rather than being all kind of like secretive about it, it's like, yes, obviously. But if you don't want to talk about it, we don't have to talk about it either. And meaning what you say.

Yeah, and not making that the condition of it either. And meaning what you say. Yeah. And not making that the condition of your friendship. Yes, yes, yes. That's important. But that's hard for people who in their own faith are insecure or are just trying to win points with people on the internet, especially like, all right, I told this guy something or whatever, you know, and I think that, again, we don't have to hide who we are. They don't want us to hide who we are. They want to know more about what that means. But they're not going to listen if we turn that

expressing of ourselves and who we are and what we mean into an attack against them. Every time we open our mouth, they're not gonna want to know anything about us anymore. Yeah, I was just thinking if there was like an apologetics course at the end of which you get a certificate, congratulations, you're an apologist, I think the first course should be someone like Jimmy Akin or Scott Hahn or somebody asking you questions and they begin with really easy, you know, like who founded the Catholic Church, how many sacraments are there, you know, that sort of thing, and they begin with really easy, you know, like who founded the Catholic Church? How many sacraments are there? You know, that sort of thing.

And they get increasingly difficult until you don't know and you are forced to say, I don't know. What do you mean you don't know? You can't have a guess? No, it's completely wrong. Are you sure you know? I don't know. Congratulations, you passed the first.

The best thing you can do sometimes, I have no idea. Man, that's beautiful, actually. Because why should you? Like, no one's, I don't know how many people are being converted by chat GPT. I mean, if you go to places like this to look for information, you might get good information, and it might help you. But the point is, people, when they come to you

and ask you questions about the faith, they're not looking for an encyclopedia. If they want an encyclopedia, they go to an encyclopedia. They want to know, why do you think that? It's that interpersonal thing. I was having a conversation with a young woman recently who is thinking about Catholicism. And whenever I get into those conversations,

I'm always trying to gauge what is the point here, right? What is going to help them? Are they looking for information or do they want to know how it works? And again, we got back to this whole issue of I have these misconceptions of what Catholicism is. I don't know what it is. So again, that's where the catechism comes in handy.

I think most of your apologetic, so with this question about how do I, you know, with these Protestant friends, if somebody really wants to know, you know, and I did this the other day with my good friend, I said, look, we can get so far, but if you really want to know what the Catholic Church teaches about things, this is where you can find the answers, you know, because I'm also not Catholic Google either, where I want to be like, or I'm not available, I can't do that, I can't be that for everybody. And sometimes I'll get emails from everybody that'll just be like, they'll email me a list of questions.

And I don't have time in my day to respond to everybody's questions, when those are things that can easily be found by just Googling those, you're gonna get there. But what people really want is they wanna know how it works out in your life and what this looks like. And you can't find that from chat GPT. Yeah. Keith, thanks very much for taking the trip. Oh man, it's been an honor. I really appreciate it. Tell people how they can learn about you, see your podcast, maybe books you've written, whatever else you want to talk about? Yeah, so my ministry is called Down to Earth Ministry, and it's down2earthministry.org,

and that's really the hub of everything. But on YouTube, I have two channels, just Keith Nester, and that's where I make a lot of different videos related to the faith. But then my Rosary live stream is on the YouTube channel, Rosary Crew with Keith Nestor. So if you go to those places, you'll find probably everything you want from me and much more. But I just want to thank you, Matt, for having me down, and I'm just so thankful that you're my brother in Christ and my brother in the faith, and I know that I can count on you, and you can count on me as well if there's anything I can do for you. And thank you for your good work here. It's been an honor to be a part of it.

Well done. Thanks.