Pints With Aquinas - Women Struggle With Pornography Too w/ Rachael Killackey

Episode Date: July 27, 2021

As much as we hear about pornography in today’s world, there’s something we don’t hear about all that much: how women struggle with it. This week on “Pints with Aquinas,” I welcome Rachael Killackey, who shares her own story about struggling with pornography and the practical insights she’s learned in her healing journey, including:  - Why women experience pornography differently than men  - Who you should (and should not) ask to be an accountability partner  - How to confess an addiction to porn to someone without it being awkward  - Why you shouldn’t be on social media if you struggle with pornography   Sign up for my free course on St. Augustine's "Confessions"!   SPONSORS Hallow: http://hallow.app/mattfradd STRIVE: https://www.strive21.com/ Homeschool Connections: https://homeschoolconnections.com/matt/   GIVING Patreon or Directly: https://pintswithaquinas.com/support/  This show (and all the plans we have in store) wouldn't be possible without you. I can't thank those of you who support me enough. Seriously! Thanks for essentially being a co-producer co-producer of the show.   LINKS Merch: https://teespring.com/stores/matt-fradd FREE 21 Day Detox From Porn Course: https://www.strive21.com/   SOCIAL Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mattfradd Twitter: https://twitter.com/mattfradd Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mattfradd Gab: https://gab.com/mattfradd Rumble: https://rumble.com/c/pintswithaquinas   MY BOOKS Get my NEW book "How To Be Happy: Saint Thomas' Secret To A Good Life," out now! Does God Exist: https://www.amazon.com/Does-God-Exist-Socratic-Dialogue-ebook/dp/B081ZGYJW3/ref=sr_1_9?dchild=1&keywords=fradd&qid=1586377974&sr=8-9 Marian Consecration With Aquinas: https://www.amazon.com/Marian-Consecration-Aquinas-Growing-Closer-ebook/dp/B083XRQMTF/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=fradd&qid=1586379026&sr=8-4 The Porn Myth: https://www.ignatius.com/The-Porn-Myth-P1985.aspx   CONTACT Book me to speak: https://www.mattfradd.com/speakerrequestform

good rachel good day how are you i'm good how are you i'm fantastic i got in from texas as you know super late last night yes yes quite the journey quite the journey american airlines all i were we're allowed to slander them all i wanted to do i didn't know if you're going to be allowed to drop the actual name of the airline or not but yeah i think. Yeah, I think so. Delta's the best. No, Southwest. Why? Because it's the Chick-fil-A of airlines. No, you can't do that.

What do you call it? It's circular. You're assuming they're the best. Well, Southwest, you can get the app. You can change your flight at any point. You get the free carry-on and check bag. Get better snacks and drinks drinks do they still do the thing where they joke up the front with you i do not like that yeah they did that yesterday when

when we were flying here i don't need like a comedian flying my plane i don't i just need you to be very professional really was the joke good uh were the jokes good yeah they were they were fine it was an older lady flight attendant. But the other flight attendant was really intense and got very mad at me for not paying attention during the demonstration. Yeah. Do you have to wear a mask still on Southwest? I think all flights, right? Yeah. It's like a federal.

But I think people are gradually like pushing the limits. Like, I don't care. What are you going to do? And I think people are doing less. Yeah. I saw a bit of that yesterday. I don't think we pulled that off, but I saw a bit of it. So I was in Tyler and I was there for 4th of July.

It was fantastic. So good living in America. Yeah. Texas for 4th of July. Oh, it was fantastic. Yeah. We're like 700 acres of property. What did you do?

For 4th of July, we actually caught what I was the largest uh firework show in the United States this year Nashville had I think the largest because New York canceled theirs because of COVID because of COVID yeah yeah so we we got if they if they'd set them off and everyone had to watch it on live stream yeah no no they just they just straight up canceled it so Nashville kind of took the stage on that one so So we went downtown. We were stuck downtown in traffic for like an hour, an hour and a half or something like that, but it was well worth it. And when did you move to Nashville?

About a year ago, a little over a year ago. Have you seen the Daily Wire guys yet? Yes, yeah. A couple of them go to my parish, or the parish we went to for a while. Yeah, so we don't, they go to the earlier mass apparently, so we haven't seen them a ton

because we go to the later mass. But you like living in Nashville? I love it. I love it. It's so fun. It's just like vibrant. And the Catholic community out there is actually kind of steadily growing. So it's beautiful.

It's really interesting. But everybody's just very artsy. And, you know, it's just like it's a vibe. Nashville has a vibe. Yeah. And then you just got married. Congratulations to Tommy who's sitting in the corner over here. Congrats. That's beautiful. Thank you. Was that a lovely day's sitting in the corner over here. Yes. Hello. Congrats.

That's beautiful. Thank you. Was that a lovely day? Lovely honeymoon? Oh, yes. Yes. It was awesome. It's just so good.

It's like, yeah, it's perfect right now. I mean, at least I think so. I don't know what he thinks. He's nodding. Good. But yes, it's been beautiful. Awesome. Well, thank you for coming on the show.

And thank you so much for addressing this issue with women and pornography because I've been talking about this topic for about 10, 12 years. Right. And I'm so, I'm not embarrassed, I suppose. I think it was just what everyone was saying. Like when I began this ministry like 12 years ago, kind of traveling and speaking, I would say just what I heard other people say. Yeah.

I would say, well, you know, men struggle with pornography and women struggle with, like, romance novels or something. And I don't want to fully abandon that because I don't know how many men are reading Fifty Shades of Stupid or the male equivalent. There's clearly a distinction going on, but obviously it's not true that women struggle with pornography. And I began seeing that as I would travel around and speak and every time I speak I encounter these lovely women

who tell me, you know, they're hooked on porn and stuff like that. So first of all, thank you for doing something about this. Of course. Thank you for encouraging me to do it. Yeah. So I'd love maybe before we kind of talk about how women can maybe overcome and your particular ministry, we'd love to hear a bit about your story.

Yeah. So I was raised in a very devout Catholic family and my parents were very careful with technology and stuff. So I, you know, unfortunately found some loopholes, but I was exposed to pornography through social media, actually. It was fan fiction on Pinterest, which actually is interesting. And it's interesting that you mentioned romance novels, because that's actually the gateway for a lot of women is that fan fiction or just reading material um we typically don't start with videos um it's typically audio or reading is what i've what i've seen um so i was 14 or 13 when i first um was exposed to it on pinterest and then i was hooked you know um it just kind of pulled me

in and I remember thinking that it was wrong like knowing you know maybe this is pornography and then kind of convincing myself that it wasn't I was like no this is just a story that's like a little more adult I guess you know and I I kind of had my my reasons um but it became kind of this secret crutch um typically for just emoting, you know, like feelings of loneliness or boredom or anger. That was a huge one. If I was hurt or angry, that would be where I turned, and so it steadily got, you know, more and more difficult, and I moved beyond that reading material. I remember getting into this argument in high school with this guy in my class who said, I just remember him saying like pornography is okay.

You know, like every guy needs to, you know, watch pornography or whatever. And I like let him have it. I mean, I was 16 and I laid into this guy. Where did that come from? Where did that come from? That passion, you know. I think it was partly like my own disdain with myself, oddly like reflecting yeah it was like a um a knowledge that what i was turning to in those secret moments was was wrong um but it also was yeah just a passion

against the the concept in general you know like it's it's awful it's deplorable um and i was just very angry with his passivity towards it and his justification of it. So we got in this massive argument. And I think after that is when I started to take ownership of, okay, if I'm going to speak this way, if I'm going to get this mad at people, I have to start doing something for myself too. And at this point in high school, are you watching visual pornography or are you still just reading? Yeah, visual. So when you say your parents were really careful about technology, what did that look like? I did not have my own computer until I was late high school and I was working on college courses.

So my parents had kind of a lot of proper censorship of what we were looking at. But when I kind of started falling more was when we got a shared laptop amongst me and my younger siblings and I had more time on it. And they probably locked it down, did they, with covenant eyes or something? No, they didn't. I don't think they were aware of it yet. Okay. Yeah. Which I think is a huge part of, you know, working in ministries like this is exposing parents to what they can do and kind of empowering them of like, you can. Because it's terrifying. Yeah. Yeah. As a parent.

Yeah. I can't imagine. You can just be crippling crippling you just do nothing you don't even get your kids technology you don't and i think that's probably a good thing in some cases but it just sort of um yeah scares you into just passivity you don't do anything right but then of course there's going to be interaction with technology and if you haven't done something proactive then stuff like yeah interest stories things oh gosh yeah and my i think you know my parents thought pinterest was you know entirely If you haven't done something proactive, then stuff like Pinterest stories things happen. Oh, gosh. Yeah. And I think, you know, my parents thought Pinterest was, you know, entirely innocent if they knew that I was using it at all, you know. Yeah.

And I wasn't allowed to get a smartphone until I was about 16. And then my senior year when I started really kind of owning, I need to make a change. I actually got rid of my smartphone. So I woke up one day and I was like, I'm done. I'm done with this. And I like went to make a change. I actually got rid of my smartphone. So I woke up one day and I was like, I'm done. I'm done with this. And I went to the Verizon store and I stood behind this grandma who was picking out a phone with her daughter. And she was like, I just want something simple. I want something with not too many buttons and with a tiny screen. You're like, me too.

Yeah, exactly. The guy looked at me, he's like, what are you looking for? I was like, I'll have whatever she's like, just give me something with less access so i had that for a year and that was super helpful like into college um not having a smartphone was hugely helpful and even now i still have my smartphone like locked down i don't have internet on it i don't have apps i don't i mean it's it is a phone just a quick shout out not that they're sponsoring us but they should um have you seen the uh what is the gab phone? Yeah. Yeah. The gab phone. I think that's, gosh, I tried doing the light phone. Yeah. My husband has the light phone. I hated it so much. I hate it. It looks cool. You look like a hipster and you're a cooler person

than I am to own that. But you know, what I realized when I got the light phone is that people like, obviously the technology changes the way people communicate. People don't text expecting a one word response anymore. They text in paragraphs. And they get mad at you. And then you're like this, it's still really hard. Don't you find it hard to text on that thing? Yeah.

Yeah. So it looks awesome, but I just found that so difficult that I went back to this and just locked it down. But I'm thinking the Gab phone might be the way to go for many parents out there. And I think it might be the first phone I get my kid and so for those who aren't aware of it it's basically a smartphone that you can't go on the internet you can't receive or send photographs wow but you can text like a smartphone you know so if someone texts you you can text a

full paragraph back wow i don't think it has directions it has music but it's like really hard you gotta plug it into it yeah it's like the light phone. But I like that. Yeah, you have to. And it's music now? And podcast too. Oh, that's kind of cool. So Gab phone, I think is the way, I think I used to say get a flip phone.

I used to tell parents, get a Q. Yeah, that's what I did. But they're just so stupid and it's so hard to use these days. Well, and you kind of have a pendulum swing too when you get people who go from the smartphone to just a regular flip phone. And they'll end up going back immediately because they don't know how to function on something that doesn't feel quite as smart.

I would recommend parents checking out Gab. I think it's a Mormon company. Everything the Mormons do regarding family and safety is incredible. Like VidAngel, Fight the New Crug, Good Pictures, Bad Pictures. They're amazing. They're incredible. So GAB phone, I think. Yeah. Yeah. I recommend that too. But that's cool. Okay. like vid angel fight the new drug good pictures bad they're amazing incredible yeah so gab phone i think yeah yeah yeah i recommend that too but that's cool so okay but now you lock it you lock

it all down which is just a beautiful thing to do for your own internal life oh yeah oh yeah i recommend it whether or not you struggle with porn because i i feel like i'm a better communicator because of it in many ways like i I still prefer phone calls over text. The screen is still, it grabs you. A smartphone screen is still really attractive. And it's designed to be addictive. So you can have your little shortcuts, like I'm going to make it black and white. But you often go back to it.

Yeah, you have too much power. Okay, so you're 16 years old. There's an old woman in front of you. You say, I want what she wants. So what phone did you get? Was it a flip phone? I got a flip phone. Yeah? I got a flip phone. Yeah, I got a flip phone.

And I kept that because that was my senior year, actually. So I think I was 17 when I did that. And then I went to college at Abbey Maria. And I was still wrestling a lot. And I think I had made some headway because of getting rid of my smartphone. But when I got to college. First of all, did your parents say anything about you getting a dumb phone? They were proud of me.

And did they know why you did that? No, no, they didn't. My parents kind of figured out slowly. I mean, they would know better than I when they figured out because I can't remember. I never directly told them. I never said this is what's going on. Right. This interview will be their first introduction. They have never, no.

Never heard of it. No. I wrote an article for an outlet that I write for sometimes called The Young Catholic Woman. I wrote an article my senior year about women struggling with pornography. And I think that was when they kind of were like, oh, that's a clue. That's a clue. Our 18-year-old daughter is right, you know. But they were always so gracious, so gracious about it. And they've been so supportive. Yes, yes. Amazing parents.

Sorry, I didn't mean to throw you off track. You were in college. No, you're good. Yeah, I got to college. And I think being in an environment like immersed in Catholicism, I had started my theology major. I was just excited and surrounded by so many good Catholics and by the faith all the time. I mean, there were like five adoration chapels on campus and like mass every day and stuff. I think that really convicted me to kind of take that final step.

But what was the final push over the edge of the cliff was this really nice guy was actually pursuing me. And I was like so ashamed of myself because i was like he has no idea that i'm dirty that i'm just like damaged and somebody as pure as him does not you know deserve somebody like me so he was actually that final push and we dated briefly but he was a very good friend of mine and um it's interesting because i think a lot of women run into that too it's that call to relationship that or a higher relationship that ends up kind of being that push over the edge um I think it's a different kind of motivation than men which is really cool but I ended up going to this healing retreat or this healing adoration night um early on in college and my favorite book um is The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis or it's a tie between

that one until we have faces by C.S. Lewis both good but there's a scene in The Great Divorce about this red lizard or this ghost trying to enter heaven with the red lizard around his shoulders are you aware of that scene yeah and I had reflected on that a few different times and that had been coming to my mind a lot just in my own struggle and then I went to this healing retreat and I walked in feeling like this is what I'm going to confront at this adoration night and there was a panel still going from a previous talk and I kid you not I walked in and the mic gets handed I didn't even hear the question the mic gets handed to one of the speakers and he said there's this scene in Divorce by C.S. Lewis about this ghost with a red lizard wrapped around his shoulders.

And I was like, what? And, yeah, for people who don't know, like, basically this ghost is trying to enter heaven with this red lizard wrapped around his shoulders. And an angel is trying to kill it. And the lizard represents lust. Yes. Lewis wanted the lizard to represent lust. The lizard represents lust. Yes, Lewis wanted the lizard to represent lust.

So I just kind of knelt down, and that night was the night it got dealt with, where, like, the agreement was kind of broken, and I just felt the Lord very clearly say, like, you are not leaving this room until we address this. And so, like, just, yeah, that was one of the most beautiful nights of my life because it was me finally kind of wearing that in front of God and being like, this is what I've been doing, and I'm so done. I'm so tired of this. I want to be a woman deserving of the attention of this kind of man. This is what I want. And I just remember like confessing it and then getting prayed over by a prayer team. And then there was like a blessed oil or something

that somebody anointed me with. And then you got to do individual exposition so you went to the front of the room and you knelt and the priest would come in front of you with the monstrance um and i just remember sobbing as i'm like kneeling and waiting for my turn and the priest comes in front of me and i'm just asking him like lord do i really get to be done do i get to be done you know please let me be done and then like he comes in front of me and i look up in like at the eucharist and all i hear is it's finished it is finished and i'm a wreck i was like sobbing on the floor um but after that yeah it got easier it got much easier it wasn't completely done i don't think necessarily those spiritual transformation

moments first of all thank you for being honest about that. Oh, yeah. Because I think there is a temptation, especially when you have something of a platform like yourself and myself, when you do have a powerful experience and then it isn't done in a sense, right? You're like, well, okay, to make my testimony more powerful, I won't share that I still am tempted or still struggle or struggle after that. But I think it's so more important and more helpful for people when we talk we talk just like you just said that it's it was it got easier it was a process yeah because we're mind body and soul so i addressed the soul piece of it and then i had to enter into battling it from the mind and body angles so it took a few more months and then

i had my last fall december of that year and have not looked back since. Glory to Jesus Christ. Yes. And there's been, I think, isolated moments of, you know, temptations or falls, but it's never been regular ever again. So I was 18, 19 at that point. Yeah, I was 19. So that's kind of my own encounter with it.

And dealing with the shame was like a whole nother, you know, aspect. Healing from that took years. Was that the first time you went to confession for it? Or had you gone to confession prior? And what is that like as a woman going to confess that sin? It's so hard. Yeah, talk about that. Because I'm sure we have a lot of young women watching who are like, yeah, I haven't confessed it. And I can't imagine doing that. that yeah i think it's hard because um i used different wording for a long time i would say you know i did stuff that was harmful to my chastity i did the same thing i'm like i'm just disrespectful to my body yeah and you're like did you eat 20 donuts one day can you clarify yeah no i used different terminology, which I think a lot of people do at first.

But I'm a big advocate for just name the demon. Just name it. I think. And I think so. First sin. Not the other things you're less ashamed of. Yeah. You know what I mean?

Like I lied. I spoke badly to my friend. Nope. Just lay it down. Look at pornography this many times. Masturbate this many times. Fornicate. Whatever it may be.

Just lay it on the table. And the priest's response have always been super gracious. Yeah, I had one where I remember going in and I was like, he's going to, you know how priests will talk to you after your confession a little bit. And they'll kind of be like, so why are you so angry? Or why did you do this? You know, and kind of help you dive into it. I always thought, I was like, this is going to be the thing that they dive into. I've got, you know, I'm a woman confessing, looking at pornography. They're going to focus on this. And they always chose something else,

which I thought was a testament to that. This isn't, you don't look at pornography because you just want to. You look at it because you're angry, because you're lonely, because you're scared, because you're ashamed. You know, it is an outlet for something much deeper. And the priest that I confessed this to always focused on where this was coming from. And I'm super grateful that they had the grace to do that and the wherewithal to do that. But I think it is, as a woman, it is, I think, twice as hard to kind of take that step. When was the first time you actually confessed it without beating around the bush or using different terms? College.

Yeah. College. Yeah. It was in college. And I think that was part of the ownership of healing, you know, is, yeah, naming the demon for what it actually was. I heard a talk, and I'm sure you have too,

by Audrey Assad. It was a fantastic testimony. Very annoying. It was the first one I ever heard. Yeah. Yeah. Ever. And she had this great line that

when men struggle with pornography, they're imprisoned, but at least they're all in the same cell, talking to each other, encouraging each other. How many days has it been for you? And she's like, when us women struggle, it's like we're in solitary confinement and we don't believe any other woman has ever struggled in the history of mankind. Yeah. Speak to that a bit.

I mean, I think this was evident in, I didn't really tell any of my friends. I didn't feel like I could. I finally told my best friend in high school, I think my senior year. She was the first person I told. I ended up telling my older brother at one point too. But when I told my friend, she had never struggled with anything like it. And thank God, she was super gracious and merciful. But women don't tell each other.

You don't really tell your friends where men can easily find an accountability partner women can't find that as part of why you know I started something so that they can find accountability but I remember when I started speaking about it in college because a couple years after I kind of stopped I started giving talks at retreats or just different events on campus or local parishes. And what it takes for women is somebody else standing up first and saying, hey, you know, this is me. Otherwise, they will never speak up. That's why I don't mean this as I'm patronizing.

That's why I'm so proud of you. Thank you. I'm so proud of you for doing this because I travel, I speak. I'm always encountering women who come up to me and say things like I want want to start something for women, but like, I'm afraid and I get it, right? And maybe I don't get it. I don't get the shame that they may feel to come out publicly at a university or whatever to start a woman's group. But God bless your courage and power. You know, the Lord's given you to start something because as you say, we need someone to step up forward, step forward and say, this is me.

Yeah. And I think there has to be a calling and a grace to do that. I've known some women who definitely have the testimony and the cares and the power to do that, but they don't feel called to put themselves out there. And for some reason, people ask me if it bothers me or if it bothers my husband or different things. It's never bothered me and it's never bothered him, which is a huge grace. But I've literally never been bothered and i think that's and one day if i am bothered then i need to examine whether or not i'm still called to do this um but i think that's a grace is that no like i'm the same as you that happened to me people would always ask the same thing i'm like no does

it bother me part of me part of why i don't care is i'm continually talking to people who this is their secret struggle so i'm like okay maybe you think no one struggles with this and that's why you think i should be embarrassed about this but i encounter everybody struggling yeah exactly exactly it's a great so was there a woman who did that for you who stood up and shared her story that gave you the courage to do it no no i saw audrey asad's talk at some point um during my more heavy recovery and that was huge for me because I loved Audrey. I loved her music. So I saw that, but I had already kind of been putting in a ton of legwork at that point. So it was encouragement to keep going. But no, there was not, there's not anybody in particular

who, you know, really kicked me off, if that makes sense. So when did you share your story publicly for the first time? How did that go? And what were the conversations like afterward? Yeah. So the first time I ever publicly shared it was actually at this thing called a cardboard testimony at a Young Life camp. So I worked for Young Life, which is an ecumenical kind of youth ministry for a while in college. And we took our kids to summer camp. And you're supposed to do this thing called a cardboard testimony where on the front you have your sin. And then on the back you have how Jesus redeemed you.

So you hold it up and then you flip it and they pick leaders to do that. And you were like asked to submit your thing, like what you would put on the cardboard on a sheet and turn it into the camp directors. And I put mine on. I was like, okay, Lord, if it's time, you know, you'll pick me. And this is close to a year after kind of that experience in adoration. So I was, I was a little bit out of recovery, but not entirely like a year clear or something. I think that year mark is a huge deal for people. So I wasn't quite there. I was still very nervous. And the next day they throw the list up on the screen of like who's getting up there and my name was first and I was like oh okay it's time and I my friends were there and actually the guy I dated briefly was there and their all of their compliments were just beautiful they were so affirming and

just like my my Young Life team was so affir. But one of the camp directors actually came up to me afterward and he just took my hand. He was like, thank you, thank you. And he's like, I have talked to so many people, so many young women who refuse to tell anybody this. Like, thank you, you have no idea what you've done. And I had this like group of teenage boys come up. They're like, we just want to hug you.

And they like hugged me. And it was, yeah, it was so sweet. So that was the first time I got out there. And then six months later, I did my first women's retreat and gave a talk on it and shared my testimony. So it slowly started building. What a blessing from our Lord that he had, he allowed that providentially to be the first experience of sharing your story and the incredible encouragement you got from your friends. Yeah. Yeah. And people you didn't even know. Right. Right. And people you didn't even know.

Right, right. And I think having that affirmation from my team, from strangers, from this relationship I had had, you know, it just like put closure on the whole thing in a really beautiful way. And I think that experience definitely gave me courage to share more. So I'm very, very grateful for that experience at camp. Because it was also, I didn't have to talk. It was just written on a cardboard.

And because I think I said caged by an addiction to pornography, flipped it over and said set free by Christ's love. I think that's what I said. And it was just very simple and straightforward, but they put it out there. I was going to ask you about like how do girls tell their parents, but I suppose since most girls don't have a public ministry doing this, they may not need to tell their parents. So maybe we can begin with how important is it that a lady find an accountability partner, if you want to use that language, and what does that look like? I think it's crucial. I think part of why I've started speaking about it and started something is because I want nobody to go through it alone like I did. And some of my Magdala team also recovered alone. And they all say that. They're like, I don't want to have to recover or I don't

want anybody else to have to recover the way I did alone. I think it's crucial. I think having people you can trust and turn to is crucial. And they can go about that through something like Magdala. But I encourage women to find somebody close in their life, whether that's, you know, a sibling or a trusted friend. I don't recommend significant others as accountability partners. And some of them do have accountability in their relationship. And I think that works for some people, but very occasional. I recommend finding a female. And why don't you recommend someone's got a boyfriend right now? Why would you say he can't be your accountability partner? It's not optimal. It bogs people down is what I've noticed.

In my ministry in college, I also talked to a lot of women whose boyfriends were addicted and they would make, try to make their girlfriends accountability partners. And it would just really weigh these women down because, you know, this is the person they honor and love and respect. And I think, and are discerning a vocation with. And I think having too much information, that constant exposure to somebody's sin, I think it weighs the relationship down. And it also can become the focal point of the relationship. And I think that's dangerous is when it's centered around this person's recovery from porn. It's like, no, you kind of got to put your focus on a lot more positive things.

But it's hard to do when there's that need for accountability in the relationship. And if the girl is kind of in a dating relationship and bogged down by pornography should she even be in a dating relationship i've changed my opinion on this a couple times to be honest um and where i stand now is i think it's very individual i've known i don't know if you agree but i've known couples where um either the guy or the girl or both are struggling and they say all right we're linking arms we are finding accountability we're going to counseling we're doing this together and they do and it's powerful um i've seen where you know either side kind of commits to that and that's kind of always been my standard is okay is this person saying like please don't leave me you know i'll get through it eventually or are they saying

hey here are all the steps i'm taking to recover you know please pray for me while i do but you are free to go i think when i've seen men or women say to their significant other who isn't struggling like you're free to go while i figure this out that's an indicator of like they're not going to depend on this in a way that attachment there's a detachment there. Yeah, detachment, exactly. So I think it's an individual basis. I don't know how you feel about it, but... Yeah, yeah. No, I think it's important to point out that a lot of this advice is individual.

Yeah. I think what happens sometimes is we experience one method working well and then we kind of universalize it. We make it like a blanket response. Yeah, yeah. And it's not always helpful. So it is important, I think, working well and then we kind of universalize it we make it like a blanket response yeah yeah and it's not always helpful so it is important i think to to realize that maybe this is something needs to be discerned with a priest with a therapist with good friends with your significant

other um so a girl girls always say this to me after my talks that i give at high schools and colleges like okay i want to find someone to be accountable to, but how do I do that? How do I start the conversation? Who do I know who I can trust? What do you say to them? I think, I mean, I'm a very blunt person generally. So I think anytime I've started the conversation, I try not to be dramatic about it. Where when I told my own friends, I wasn't like, you know, I've been wearing this for a long time and here this is. I kind of just tried to not be casual about it as in superficial but a little more straightforward

yeah i'd be like hey i've been really struggling with this lately can you help me you know i love it um and i think kind of treating it like uh if you needed help with a problem with lying you know or with overeating overeating yeah anger that sort of thing um just treating it like any other sin was really helpful when I brought it up with other women. Because the response was always, from my friends, it was always, oh yeah, absolutely. And then sometimes they would be like, yeah, me too, actually. And it became a productive conversation. But I think it's when you place the drama on it is when it becomes really, really hard to admit it to people. But if you shift your own mindset to this is another sin

and I do want to get rid of it, but this is just another sin. So I'm going to bring this up like I'm bringing up my problem with gossip. I think that's a good one to compare it to for women is gossip because I think we need help from other women with that. Yeah, that's really cool. It kind of reminds me of when parents want to talk to their children about sex, and maybe they have their own baggage and wounds from the culture or society. And so it's almost like you don't need to be weird about it. It's actually not a weird thing to talk about. You're making it weird because you've been hurt, and I get it. That's an understandable

response, perhaps. But it's almost something similar. It can be as awkward as you need it, as you want it to be, or as you will have it be. But just saying to a friend, hey, I struggle with this and I need help. Could you pray with me? Could we talk about it? Yes, yes. Yeah, I like that.

Yeah, and it normalizes the conversation better than the drama does. It makes it more, like, makes it easier. Yeah. Just in general to make it a conversation for women. And I'll often say something, I'm not sure how helpful this is,

when women say, how do I know who I can trust? I always say, you already know who you can trust, so go tell them. Yeah, exactly. If you can trust them with other stuff, hopefully you can trust them with this. Yeah. But that's important. I've heard someone say that some things can only be healed by the antiseptic light of truth. This is one of those things. Because you said earlier that, gosh, if he knew, you know, or if people knew, I wouldn't be lovable. I'm not worth sticking around for. But when you can share with a friend and they don't leave and they are encouraging,

their sticking around speaks that truth to you. Yeah, absolutely. You aren't your sin. You're a lovely person, created in the image and likeness of God, and we all struggle with stuff, and I'm not going anywhere. Exactly. And I think the worst reaction people can have is shock, right? When we say that, you know, if they're like, how dare you, you know, or the, I didn't know women struggled with that. I get that all the time when I say like what I do or what I'm passionate about and people are like,

oh, I had no idea women even struggle with that. And I always correct them. I say, please don't say that to anybody other than me. Yeah, because that's not helpful. Did you ever see that talk I gave for Franciscan? I gave a talk, Seven Myths Exposed, about five years ago. I think I did. I think I probably did. One of the first things I said was, if you have said in the past, like women that struggle with this, please never say that again. It's false and offensive.

And there was a cheer that erupted mainly, I think, beginning from the women. And I was like, whoa, that was, that's cool. Like, so I just say that every time now, like, don't say that again. You should be more ashamed of saying that than women confessing. Please keep saying that because yeah, I think that is even from people in ministries that I was supposed to be collaborating with. And they're like, well, we don't know if we want to collaborate because, you know, we don't really think this is a huge problem. And I just kind of like, like every time where I'm like, really? Okay.

And you just made it more of a problem. So. Okay. This is interesting. So I would have thought that we're getting past this, but in some ways we're not. No. And that might be and probably is because most women still aren't sharing this

in a public way. Yeah. I think younger generations are starting to wake up because the statistics are closing in, right? Of like men addicted versus women addicted. I mean, it is closing in. But no, on my campus, I had to fight perspectives. When I started a support group at Aave, I had to fight some perspectives,

even within leadership. And that was really hard. But I also had a lot of support from leadership. so I want to say there was definitely more support than opposition but sometimes the perspective of my classmates my peers was was definitely like a oh like how many women do you have kind of thing like a little bit like you know is that actually a thing and a little bit of doubt and I just kind of always laughed at it. Like, I think that was my reaction was always like, like, if only you knew. Like, do you want to come run the support group?

Because you'll see how many people need it. But yeah, so I think people do that because I think they're scared of admitting it's a reality. I think, you know, it's a scary thing to look at. It's sort of like when I talk to teenagers and principals don't want to look at it. I think part of it is if I look at it, I got to deal with it. Yeah. And they don't want, I think also men don't want to think that women struggle with it. They want to see women as like the bedrock of purity.

Right. Interesting. And so I think a lot of the opposition I got was from men because they didn't. Interesting. Yeah. I'm so sorry. Good for you for fighting through that. No, I mean, I think it is, I think it is just that, that limited, um, perspective, but also, yeah, the, the fear of encountering it, you know, in the women they know

and love. Um, I think that's a scary thought that that purity being and that beauty being compromised. Which is probably where the shame comes from. It's this idea that women shouldn't struggle with it. Not only don't they, but they shouldn't. It's this, as you say, there's this idea that women shouldn't struggle with it not only oh yeah don't they but they shouldn't it's this as you say there's this perception that women should please god be different because if they're not we're all screwed or something i don't know what it is right and i think when you're struggling with it as a woman you definitely have that thought is am i even feminine because i'm struggling with a masculine thing um and so a lot of women who come into magdala or came into the group at ave um they're dealing with literally an identity crisis of what it means to be a woman um and i think that's part

of why it's so necessary to not place any judgment or any like lack of perspective even like i had no idea um because that's often so innocently said, but women are literally having an identity crisis on like what femininity is and am I even capable of living this out as a whole because of this. So important what you just said there. That is so important. Actually, it was Audrey Assad in her talk that said when she was struggling with pornography and didn't tell anybody and then she went to a group and they divided the women to this section the men over here and they told the women that we know you don't struggle with pornography or anything like that and she literally said am i like a man in a woman's body right now maybe 20 years ago you could have asked that question and quickly went well no that's stupid but not today apparently you might be yeah you know it's um it brings up a lot of questions i think one of the

biggest ones that comes up for women, because we identify so much with our relationships, is am I capable of getting married? And I actually spoke to a professor of mine at Aave, Dr. Waldstein. He's actually at Steubenville now. He was my Theology of the Body professor that semester. You are a blessed woman. Oh, yes.

What a great guy. Yeah, it was amazing. It was incredible the translator of the theology of the body and love responsibility for those who aren't aware yes yes so three doctorates i think yeah something like that i don't even know how many languages the guy can like read and speak but um in the months following my like major recovery that first semester at college my second semester i had tob with him and he does this wonderful thing where he has conversational like oral exams so you go in and he asks you just a couple questions he wants to have a conversation with you to see if you

actually have mastery of the content um and he asked me a couple questions and i got through my exam and then he asked he's like is there anything else you want to talk about is there anything else like any other questions you have and i just told told him, I was like, Dr. Feldstein, I've struggled with this. And like, can I ever have this? Can I ever have what you've taught us? Can I ever have that with anybody? And he looked at me and he's like, well, he looked away for a while. I remember he like paused and then he just smiled and he said,

lust did not attack you because you can't love. Lust attacked you because your love is meant to change the world and that was yeah literally like i'm not crying you're crying shut up no but that's the line that i tell in in all women in any talk i give is like that line again yeah lust did not attack you because you can't love lust attacked you because your love is meant to change the world and i cried when he told me that and i've reflected on it many times since um and then i i say that in every talk or any article i write is that like this is it guys like you are not dirty or shameful or you know a monster you actually were attacked by this because you love you love powerfully um and that's what actually

empowers women to start to recover is like no you are a powerhouse of um and that's what actually empowers women to start to recover is like no you are a powerhouse of love and that's why you struggle with this he would not kick you like if you know if this wasn't if you weren't like running like steam a full steam ahead like into love he would not try to trip you and um i think that's that's like my crux of my ministry is just, no, you are made for love. And that's why, actually. Satan's just trying to thwart this. So press into that, you know, what you were made for. And that's it.

I heard a line which I'll share with you and get you to comment on as it pertains to women especially. When we run from our shame, we legitimize its claims against us yeah wow wow yeah yeah i think there's a lot of people who as you say like i don't want to talk about it i don't want to name it i don't want to say that i'm addicted to pornography because then i'd have to face whatever the heck this is i don't want to say it in those words to a priest i don't want to share it with my boyfriend or my friends. Yeah. Yeah. Speak to that. Wow. Yeah. I mean, I think Satan likes to keep us all isolated, right? That's, that's his goal. Sift us as wheat. Yes. Yeah. And he likes to keep us in the dark.

And I think as long as you, yeah, gosh, I love that. As long as you run away from your shame, you legitimize its claims. Yeah. You give power to its, its voice when you let it have power over you. But when you turn around and address it and find that you have a father who loves you, who isn't scandalized by your sin, who knows what you want in the first place. I mean, one of the things that's so helpful, I was speaking to a woman yesterday, what Thomas Aquinas has to say about our desire for things. Blessed is so much because, of course, he says, you know, that evil is an absence. And whenever we sin, we're choosing what we perceive to be the good. Even the suicide, commits suicide because of something he perceives to be good, namely a lack of suffering.

When we go to pornography, there is a good we perceive. Maybe it's the good of being affirmed or being found strong and desired and desirable, etc., etc., etc. And so like look at all of these things. And as Sister Miriam has said to me, be more curious and gentle with yourself. Be curious about your sin and gentle because the shameful kind of hard approach doesn't actually help it's actually counterproductive i love that yeah i love that i think yeah this is something that we talk about when i ran pure and hard at ave and then now in magdala the first like session i do in small groups is talking about desire and dreams um because that's the first thing i want to know about women is what do you actually desire what do you want what dreams do you have and what dreams is this getting in the

way of because i think when you make women identify with their good desires and with their wants and their needs it it makes the thing an enemy it removes it from them that's a tactic i've seen work really well in my own life but also in the women that we've worked with um and also like teaching them your desires your good desires your dreams tell me a lot more about you than your struggle with porn you know struggling with porn is boring it's average right but like your dreams and desires are what make you unique it's what tells me you know what god created you to do it tells me about your vocation um and teaching women that that's what i want to know about you in this group is what do you want? You know, that's always the first question is what do you want? And why do you think you're getting it here? You know, and like,

where can we actually all go get it? And empowering them to, yeah, I think be more curious. I like that line from Sister Mary. I find sometimes in my kind of dialogues with young men, especially after talks is helping them realize that they don't have to stop looking at porn if they don't want to is actually helpful. Wow. Let me explain what I mean. I had a young man come up to me at a Focus conference years and years ago. And I won't say where, even though there's tens of thousands of people there, so I'm not giving away anything. But he came up to me and was telling me how difficult it was to stop looking at pornography.

Have you heard me share this? I don't think so. And I said, I empathized at first because I agree with him. This is, of course, a difficult thing. Yeah. And I began suggesting things to him that might be of some use. And to everything I offered, he dismissed. Yeah, I've tried carbon monoxide. It didn't really work. So I don't do it anymore. And do you have an accountability partner? No, there's no one in my area. And like everything I offered, he just dismissed.

And I went, okay, time to smack this guy. And so I said, all right, well, just look at porn then. Like you have Wi-Fi up in your bedroom. Like just go and like masturbate to pornography. And he looked up at me. Now, don't worry. I wouldn't have let him leave if he had went, cool. But I knew he wasn't going to say that.

And he looked up at me and said, well, I don't want to do it. And I went, okay, well, shut up, man up, and let's make some bloody good decisions. Yeah. I really do think that. I mean, you can sin as much as you like. You'll see how bland and boring your life becomes, and you'll see how wide the gates of hell are. That's an option for you. Keep going down that road if you want.

Really, you have that option. Yeah. for you keep going down that road if you want really you have that option yeah i often think just realizing you have that option shows you that you actually don't want it yeah so i was like would you like to keep looking at point like if the church says you can yeah would you like to and i think most people would be god no no i don't want it yeah you know yeah i think i ask a similar question but i like the strength with which you articulate that. Because I ask, the second question is, you know, what do you want? And then my second question with anybody who sits down with me, like a woman who sits down with me is, okay, what are you willing to do? Like, tell me straight up, what are you willing to do?

You know, what do you think you have to do? That's a good question. What are you not willing to do? Yeah, because I've had women who aren't willing to get covenant eyes or get rid of their smartphone for a time or put blocks any kind of block on their computer um and i kind of say like okay then i i can't help you you know talking with me isn't going to help you like you you have to do this you have to choose this um i've talked with men who do that where they're like yeah i don't know i'll do it eventually and it's like okay then you know nobody can be of any help to you um amen it is kind of that like heaven helps those who

help themselves kind of thing which can get problematic in some areas but i think in this one it's very very true is you have to choose at some point now yes right now exactly and there's and if there's any umming or ah-ing it's like well remain stuck in your sin yeah that's how that goes for you and anybody who's been addicted knows what it feels like to reason with it. I reasoned with it for years where it's like, okay, like, you know, I'll try. Oh, no. And finally, it was that one night that I was like, I am so sick and tired of this. I want this out.

I'm done. And a lot of people have to hit that rock bottom before anything changes. One thing Father Sean Kilcoley said on my recent interview is you have to break up with pornography. You have to fire it. You have to say, like, thank you for trying to be a thing that helped me get through, you know, my awkward childhood and when my parents were angry at me. Like, you were there for me.

Like, you were there. It's almost like a breakup. But you've got to get, of course, it doesn't give you what it promised, but there is a sense in which it gave you something. If it didn't give you something, you wouldn't go back for it wow it's like if sin looked like sin you'd be like no that's stupid but it's like the worm on the hook and you have to acknowledge the worm you have to say i like it like i like masturbating i like looking at pornography it feels really good like when i'm stressed out it's it's like it it it can feel great and yeah i feel

like crap afterwards but there's something it gives me and i think like acknowledging that boldly and then saying but i have to break up with you i have to fire you and i'm gonna need something else to take your role because this isn't working sorry i like that i like that mindset but like why is it i'm i'm turning to it in the first place and what is it that yeah yeah that's really helpful and i think the the spirit behind it like converses with us. I didn't, I think Lewis illustrates this in the great divorce is when the ghost is trying to say goodbye to that red lizard, it starts chattering in his ear and it goes louder and louder and louder where it's like, okay, I'll behave. I'll be better. I'll be better. You know,

like I'll do less. It's fine. You know, and starts trying to convince him that it's not that bad. Break its back. Yeah. You literally have to snap its neck. Yeah, exactly. And so I think it's conversing on both sides. We start justifying, but there's a spiritual power behind this that is justifying it as well. Yeah. You have to stop talking to it.

That is fantastic. Yeah, that reminds me of Augustine in the Confessions where he feels this desire to convert, and it was like all of these sweet loves came up and said, really, now? Will we be gone forever? And he was conversing with it until he had to make that final decision. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, I want to go through Aquinas' four remedies for lust. Yes. I don't think he calls them remedies per se, but he does call them you know ways to overcome and maybe what we can do is we'll each is quite short like a short paragraph for each of these four points or ways and then i'd love you just to kind of speak to it and maybe especially as it pertains to women oh sure yeah this could be fun i mean this is pines with the

quietness after all so we have to mention him we got it we got it i mean he's awesome and he has some good things to say here's the first thing he says about lust and this is just awesome he says we must realize that the avoidance of concupiscence demands much labor yeah and of course concupiscence is talking about our dis disordered passions our desire for those lower things in particular in this conversation like sexual things right for it is based on something within us it is as hard as trying to capture an enemy in one's own household so maybe speak to that first of all like it i love that it demands much labor so if you're thinking that you just had to pray a rosary and decide to stop and that would be it it that may not be the case. It demands much labor. Yeah. Something we do in our small groups is,

and we did this in person at college, but then we're starting to implement it with Magdala, is making a freedom plan where you have to talk about each location or device that you fall on or emotions behind it. You lay out like, okay, what is basically the blueprint of my fall where where does satan get at me and then you have to find um you have to list basically two to three

solutions of when i feel this thing or when i experience this thing or when i'm laying in my bed or when i'm on my computer and i start to feel this temptation i have three things laid out that i can choose you do have to choose but. But I think that first that interior admitting of this is what gets me, but then that interior creation of a new solution, I think is, I would say that's a labor, laborious thing. Now, let me say this too. I think when you've struggled against something and you keep failing, first of all, that's just an exhausting way to live.

Yeah. And I think we get tired of hearing the same answers. It's sort of like someone who's tried to lose weight again and again and again and again and again. And you say to them, okay, here's how you do it. They want to hear something new because they hope that that new thing will help them in a way that diet and exercise didn't. Yeah. Like maybe there's like pills i could take or it's like no like it's here's you need to diet like i've heard that before okay i'm

sure you have but it's still true yeah so i say that because here's the first thing that aquinas is going to say and we've all heard it but still i think it's important to address aquinas says the first way we can overcome lust is by fleeing the external occasions such as for instance bad company and in fact whatever may be an occasion for this sin um so that's yeah speak to that yeah i mean i think that yeah that's probably more what i said with the freedom plan i think a big one that women experience um is rom-coms that is something that i would say i almost asked what that was and then i knew what it was romantic comedy movies yeah um because bad company you know isn't always i would say the trigger necessarily because they don't talk about it um but the media that we take

in the movies the music all of it mean, that is a massive trigger for women. And books that you read is another one. So I would say like, I mean, placing blocks on those external resources that you take in, even if that means like, okay, it's a rom-com, but it's got one sex scene. It's fine. It's fine. It's not fine. When you're trying to recover from porn, it's not fine. So just stop watching them. And that may take time. It may take time to weed those things out. You may not need to have a Netflix account for a little while, but weed those things out. The bad company we keep is often on our devices and in our hands. It's not necessarily the people surrounding us. You know, I was thinking about this the other day, because I think we Christians are very good at rationalizing the sorts of entertainment we wish to engage.

Yeah. And you almost want to ask us as Christians, okay, is there anything that would be inappropriate for a Christian to watch? I'm not talking porn. That's obvious. But anything else? And it feels like we're just so good at being like, well, I can watch this and I can watch that because you know I can discern between what's good and what's bad and I'm a grown-up and I can eat the chicken and spit out the bones like this idea that everything has to be like poop that brownie with a bit of poop you

for that analogy or something would you eat a brownie with a bit of poop in it no you wouldn't therefore don't watch The Office and people find that simplistic and puritanical yeah and yet it might be good to just stop making excuses for a moment and to say, yeah, don't watch The Office. Don't watch Netflix. Maybe don't watch television. Because I think, and I see this in my own life, not with sexual sins, but other sins like cursing and sarcasm.

Like I'm so good at coming up with defenses and arguments. And like you said, the Lord said to you, just, well, just don't dialogue with it in a sense. Like just accept me, stop talking. And I think that's, that's really important what you just said there. So all this, like you said earlier, like, are you ready to change or not? Like, what are you willing to do? Yeah. So it's just quit making excuses, quit watching that stuff, quit exposing yourself to entertainment that's leading you down this dead end path. Yeah. Social media would be another one, I suppose.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And I think I need to be careful about the soapbox I get on with social media. But it is a major gateway, I think. No, get on the soapbox. Oh, gosh. No, it's a long soapbox. No, I don't see benefits to it, especially when you're trying to recover.

Like Magdala does not have social media accounts for this reason. You are fabulous. Yeah, because I don't want women going on social media to find us and find our resources. I'm so impressed with you. I want them finding it on their own. Yeah, and it means we have less numbers. It means we're less popular. It means people don't necessarily know who the team is.

That is wonderful. For those watching right now, the first link in the description below is to Magdala Ministries, which is Rachel's apostolate. And I do want to get to that, of course, but that is wonderful. Thank you. Like what a humble thing to do. To be like, we could be much bigger. We're going to choose not to use social media because.

Well, it was actually, it was actually my husband who. Go Tommy. Yeah, I know, go Tommy. Who actually kind of called me out on that because I was saying like, oh, I could put this person in charge of social media, you know, do this and this and that. He was like, but you don't believe in social media. Like, you don't think it's good. And he was like, are you willing to compromise that?

And I was like, okay. Yes, you idiot. No, I'm just joking. You would never believe an idiot. I didn't mean to call you an idiot. But no, it was very good for me to be reminded of my own convictions and you know be called to to place that on this that's wonderful yeah that reminds me of dave ramsey i don't know if he still does this or not or what he's doing these days but when whenever you would buy merchandise from him you couldn't use a credit card because he was

against credit cards and you think wow that's that wow talk about integrity yeah dang um so that's something similar it makes it tougher for people to choose to take that step. I think not having social media, it's like, all right, if you want Magdala, if you want our resources, you've got to come find us and you've got to make that choice. We're not going to be at your fingertip necessarily. We're there. You can find us, but we're not going to be in your scrolling feed. Talk to women about why they should, if they are struggling. We say struggle.

And by the way, struggle means to violently resist. It doesn't mean to give into without a fight. Yeah, I like that. People say I struggle with pornography and I want to say, is there any struggle? Or are you just choosing to do it? Are you just giving in? So we hope that women are struggling with pornography

if they're tempted as opposed to just giving in. And anyway, but for women who are struggling and they're watching this right now, tell them to get off social media, feel free to be as bold as you like. I mean, I think, I think it's just too easy. I think it's been proven that it's a gateway to pornography and it is one of those things of what are you willing to do? Our attachments to social media, especially as women are just colossal, colossal. We love to identify with those pictures, with those feeds, with who we colossal. Colossal. We love to identify with those pictures, with those feeds, with who we follow, with who follows us. We love to identify

with it. And so I think when you say no to social media, I mean, it's a much bigger issue than just being like, I'm done with porn. It's like, I'm done with identifying with this. I'm done with this comparison. But I think it's very superficial. I'm thinking of certain platforms that tend to, yeah, tend to cultivate superficiality. And- Which is pretty much every one of them, to degrees. There's probably some that are worse.

Yeah, that's a good point. It's kind of all of them, yeah. But just, yeah, it makes it far too easy. And that's one thing that a lot of women will rationalize is like, well, you know, but I still want my TikTok, I still want my Instagram, you know, or like I have a business, this too easy and that's one thing that a lot of women will rationalize is like well you know but i still want my tiktok i still want my instagram you know or like i have a business this and this and that i'm like okay um then yeah don't expect to get fully free without a freak ton of effort because this is you know probably public enemy number one at this point

when it comes to porn um but it also just cultivates like other issues in women that complement struggles with lust too like comparison or insecurity um so it's not just feeding you content it's feeding those fires within you that reach out for that content yeah this is really good i mean aquinas here is of course talking about near occasion of sin and things that we engage in that when we do we go down the slippery slope towards pornography. And I find that like a lot of the time people say, we've got to fast. We're going to fast from, you know, just from bread and water. And this is a beautiful thing.

And I encourage it in the appropriate circumstance. But if you're struggling with pornography, you could just ask yourself, when's the last time like I had cheesecake and then looked at porn? And then maybe not often, maybe never, maybe sometimes and you should quit dessert or when's the last time i've been cruising social media and just watching

shows and then looked at porn so it's like find those things that when you engage in you end up looking at porn maybe it's drinking alcohol or something those are the things to maybe begin fasting from yeah exactly it doesn't sound as heroic, right? Like I fast from Instagram. I fast from social media. Yeah. That doesn't sound as heroic as I'm fasting from all food. Right. But it might be the thing you're being called to.

Yeah. And I think that, I don't know. What am I trying to say? Oh yeah. When I started the group originally at Ave, it was, my mindset was that of like, okay, let's do all these extreme things. Let's work out. Let's fast. Let's do all these extreme things. Let's work out.

Let's fast. Let's do all these things. And it was actually the quiet correction of somebody who was helping me out with this ministry. They were like, are you sure? Are you sure that's the best path? Because that may send people away or it may starve them to the point where they reach for the one food they know, you know, constantly is there. And so I think it's correct to make your fasts the right thing. But also, I think I probably listened to a podcast with you that talked about this, where you,

if you swing them this way, you know, it'll go this way. Instead, we want them in the middle, you know. You don't want to be agitated necessarily. Yeah. You want people to find balance, to find, you know, that mean of virtue, you know? Yeah. Well, the second thing Aquinas says is this. The second way is by not giving an opening to thoughts which of themselves are the occasion of lustful desires. And this must be done by mortification of the flesh. I chastise my body and bring it into subjection. Yeah. so talk about that, you know, not giving an opening to thoughts which of themselves, and we've talked about this a bit, so Aquinas' first way has to do with external things. Right, and it's the internal. I think fantasizing, like sexual fantasies, is a huge problem amongst women especially. That's one I justified for a very long time, and I would say

that was the tail end of my struggle. I fought that for a few years following. And if I'm tempted towards anything, it's probably that now. Because I think it's the hardest one to get rid of. It's a screen in your mind, basically. But I was given beautiful advice by this one woman that I met at SEEK a couple years ago. And she said, when the thoughts come, you have to have an image to replace it with. And she's like, so picture the most beautiful church you can in your mind or picture the monstrance you know like make your own detailed monstrance and send your mind to adoration like

literally like if you need to snap your your fingers and do it and sometimes I'll still do that like if I start to sense something coming on every once in a while I'll just be like and then you know I have a particular image in my brain um so i think you know telling yourself not to think about it is like the worst when you're like don't think about it don't you know because it's like the don't think about pink elephants and now you're thinking about pink elephants you know instead have that image to replace it with and make it something beautiful you know um for some women that could be images of their children we've got lots of married women with children within our ministries. But it could be an image of somebody you love.

But most of all, I think making it an image of our Lord in some way, shape, or form. It could be your favorite painting. But the monstrance has been super helpful for me. It's like, okay, all right, I'm there. And these thoughts are not welcome in this space. Like, we're in this space now. That's been probably the most helpful thing for me. so mortification of the flesh when it comes to thoughts you know i don't know if that's the approach that i've necessarily seen be most helpful but there was a time where um if i started

being tempted i would get down on the floor and do push-ups or sit-ups that can help too like i'm gonna go for a run now and i'm gonna clear my mind and maybe you're right like in the moment it's not like, what, how do I modify the flesh? I'm tempted. But, but I guess like if I'm living a life in which I'm eating too much and

sleeping in too late and just kind of being lazy, then that might lend itself towards more and more. But I love what you did there. That, that, that it's like my thing. If I feel tempted to fantasize or something comes to my mind, I'll actually say the word trigger out loud.

Wow. Yeah. I like that. But it's something similar to what you're doing because the clicking, it's like it externalizes it. And that action wakes up that sleeping part of your brain that is gradually drifting into fantasy land. You need something to interrupt it. Yes. And something physical is the way to do that.

So whether it be saying trigger and acknowledging what's happening. I like that, the physical thing there. I like saying it out loud too, because it calls it what it is. And it doesn't beat you up in the moment for having kind of that little slip. I like that. Here's the third way. Aquinas says, perseverance in prayer. Unless the Lord build the house, they labor in vain who build it. in prayer. Unless the Lord build the house, they labor in vain who build it. And also, I knew that I could not otherwise be continent, except God gave it.

Again, I love Aquinas. He has three scriptures. This kind is not cast out, save by prayer and fasting. And then Aquinas says, and this is such a lovely analogy, All this is not unlike to a fight between two persons, one of whom you desire to win, the other to lose. You must sustain the one and withdraw all support from the other. So also between the spirit and the flesh, there is a continual combat.

Now, if you wish the spirit to win, you must assist it with prayer. And likewise, you must resist the flesh by such means as fasting. For by fasting, the flesh is weakened. I love that. And you've probably heard the analogy too, between two wolves. You know, you've heard that, that want to fight when you want to win, when you don't. Well, how do you make that one win? Well, you feed that one. You don't feed the other one. Oh, I like that a lot.

I always love his analogies too. They're always very straightforward after not so straightforward the entire time. Wow. I'm just thinking about that for a second. I think for women... Just that line one more time. Yeah, please read it. Yeah, not unlike...

This battle that you're in, this is not unlike a fight between two persons, one of whom you desire to win, the other to lose. You must sustain the one and withdraw all support from the other. Yeah. I think the biggest thing for women though, is that it's very hard to approach Jesus with this issue. That's something that I think I probably hear that most commonly is that in prayer, it's very hard to talk about it. Like it's hard to bring it up in confession because Jesus is a man. And so approaching a man as a woman,

and especially like the man as a woman, is very difficult to do in prayer. But there's a line from C.S. Lewis's Till We Have Faces. It's towards the conclusion of the book where it says like, how can we meet God face to face till we have faces? And I use this all the time and I probably overuse that line, but it really is everything when I, and I tell the women, um, in our ministry is that, um, until you wear your face before God and all its ugliness and all its glory, like he cannot show his face to you. You have to rip the veil off. Right.

Um, and so there is nothing more freeing, I think for women than to finally have that moment of like, this is me. I am Mary Magdalene possessed by seven demons in front of you right now. I'm the woman caught in adultery at your feet with people raising stones against me. I am that woman. And what do you say? You know, and scripture is full of it. You know, Jesus like looks and says, you know, I don't condemn you. I don't condemn you. But you can't hear that. You can't hear that from him until you wear your face. You know, you can't see that beauty from him until you wear your face, until you rip the veil off. And so I think a lot

of women want to pray about this, but you have to start with kind of sending that or them into that space of disdain that they have with themselves, the space of shame, and be like, wear that and take it to them. And it's a very hard place to get, but I think it's so freeing. And once you get there, then I think you can start beefing it up just in prayer, you know, like your fight against this. I think turning to female saints who struggled with it, you mentioned Mary of Egypt to me several times. She's a good one. But our ministry is named Magdala after Mary Magdalene because she was a mess. She was a mess of a woman. And just kind of pointing out to women always that like God loves messes. He loves it. He loves to use people who are messy.

Like Mary Magdalene was present at the resurrection for a reason because she took her mess to the right source. So I always tell women like in prayer, converse with God about this issue. Tell him how hard it is. Tell him why you want it. Tell him how you feel after, you know, using these things or masturbating. Tell him how you feel. He wants to know, and he does know. But I found a lot of women find that freedom first in just owning the shame, presenting it to God, and then starting that conversation. And then they feel like they can ask, you know, God, please help me. But it takes that first step of wearing it in front of him, if that makes sense. It makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Something I think we got to get better at in regards to prayer. And Father Sean mentioned

this on our interview is, Lord, help me find in you what I'm looking for in this. Like it has to be real. It has to be intimate. It has to be from the heart. Devotionals are beautiful, but they are meant to bring us into intimacy with Jesus. And sometimes we don't use the rosary as a means to be intimate with Jesus. We use the rosary as like the dollar I put into the vending machine to get a Coke. In other words, I give you a rosary, you give me a porn-free day.

That's how this works. And our whole prayer life becomes about not looking at porn, whereas it's supposed to be about intimacy with Jesus, which, of course, a side effect of that will be to take our yearnings and our aches to him and not to this this idol yeah that's like a line from the great divorce after the whole red lizard victory is done um there's a line that says like master overcome us so that overcome we may become ourselves wow say that again master overcome us so that overcome we may become ourselves

um that's like a prayer that you know know, the ghost gives, I think. Or maybe it's the entire, like, land is singing at that point. But it is that, yeah, like, I want to become who I am. I want to become who you've made me to be. But you have to overcome me in order for me to become that. You have to enter into all of these spaces that I've been hiding from you, all of these dusty corners that I have in order for me to become who I am. And I have a longing to become who I am. That's another thing I talk about with them often is that the women in our ministry is just like, God has

designed such a complex and beautiful person for you to be. And this is getting in the way. And so take that desire for who you want to be and take it to him, but just understand he's got to go into a lot of spaces first. How important is therapy in your experience with women who are struggling with pornography? Because we're talking about prayer. Prayer is essential. But maybe sometimes people say, well, I pray so I don't need to go to therapy. Like I've gone to confession or I go to confession, so maybe I don't need therapy.

What would you say to that? I think it's crucial. Whether in the midst of your struggle or not, at some point you have to confront it in a therapeutic setting. For me, it was after. It was actually after. Therapy was helpful in addressing the shame that this had placed on my identity and just kind of helped sweep that off. And I experienced a lot of freedom a couple years later when I took it to therapy. Some women like cannot get free, I think,

without help from a counselor, from a trained sex addiction therapist sometimes, or sometimes even like a program. And not to be afraid of that. I always commend women when they say like kind of nervously, like, okay, I think I might need like a rehab program or I might need a therapist i'm like yeah good on you yeah go find it that's great like you you are articulating that

you need help and you're gonna go get it that's awesome um but i think every woman at some point or another needs to address it in a clinical setting whether that's even just like a meeting or two with a therapist and just kind of cleaning out okay i had this and this is you know these are the mental effects from it because yes it is a sin and we need to address it spiritually first i'd say but then addressing what it does to you mentally what it does to your relationships i think is is really crucial i'm a huge advocate for for therapy did that help you in your process yeah you said yes i went um i'd say i addressed it in therapy a year later a year and a half later and then mostly two years I went through a couple different rounds of therapy um and it was

exceedingly like helpful and very pivotal for me to just kind of it felt like I had you know a carpet that was like halfway clean and then like therapy was just taking the vacuum over it and like fully cleaning out the carpet and it was all gone at that point um just taking the vacuum over it and like fully cleaning out the carpet. And it was all gone at that point. Just like the shame and the buildup of what I was still believing about myself because I had struggled with it had to be addressed from that therapeutic standpoint. The fourth way, and this is the final thing Aquinas says. He says the fourth way is to keep oneself busy with wholesome occupations. Sirach says, idleness hath taught much evil. St.

Jerome says, be always busy in doing something good so that the devil may find you ever occupied. Now, study of the scriptures is best of all. As St. Jerome tells us, love to study the scriptures and you will not love the vice of the flesh. But what about that general point there, to keep oneself busy with wholesome occupations because i suppose to some that might

sound like avoidance like don't think about it just do good things and you'll be okay that's clearly not what he's talking about but maybe interpret that in the best possible light and how that can be a blessing to keep oneself busy with wholesome occupations because I don't, I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think avoidance connotes certain behaviors that aren't necessarily helpful. Like I think I can avoid pornography by watching TV. I can avoid it by reading a book, you know? But pursuing acts of charity is never, I don't think, I don't think I would classify that as an avoidance.

And there is kind of an accountability in itself that comes with that. I got really involved in ministry while I was trying to recover with high schoolers. And that was really, really helpful for me is that I felt like I wasn't just recovering for myself. I felt like I was recovering to lead these kids closer to Christ. And so I think encountering people out of love and out of acts of charity, I don't, yeah, that doesn't feel like avoidance to me. But it feels like filling that space, because in seeking pornography we're longing for love,

but filling that space by loving others, by being loved to others, I think is very, very powerful. And so that doesn't mean you have to run to the soup kitchen and volunteer like any time you want to like watch porn. But it just means having those spaces where you know consistently like this is where I get the chance to be loved to people. That teaches addicts that there's a possibility for them to do more than just bad actions, than just lustful actions. It's like, no, I do fill some of my time with something loving,

and I want to do that more. It gives something to focus on. Yeah. There is a quote going around the internet attributed to Thomas Aquinas. I'm pretty sure it's not from him, but I think it would sum up his thought. It says, man cannot live without joy. Therefore, when he is deprived of true spiritual joys, it is necessary that he become addicted to carnal pleasures. Now, maybe there's a quote like that. I haven't been able to find it, but I'm sure this is true. Yeah. And I think that goes to what Aquinas is saying here as well about filling your day with wholesome activities.

If I'm not going to the Lord in prayer, receiving his blessing, his words of affirmation. But then also if I'm not sort of engaged in beautiful activities at all, like reading a nice book with my wife, say, or taking your day off, which means leaving your phone in the drawer perhaps or something like that. If I'm not actually engaged in wholesome activities, then i'm just sort of like running on fumes and that's not a good place to be in if you wish to continue to avoid these carnal pleasures yeah you have to have leisure essentially yeah what's the speak about that what's the difference between leisure and dissociating oh gosh much of

our rest time ends up being that yeah i am i'm not the best on leisure my husband's the best on on leisure i i um i think it's the dissociation is um not recreative like it's not you know yeah recreation um leisure recreates you so leisure is time spent in something that recreates like what it means to be human so like reading a book with your wife or you know having a drink with friends those sorts of things recreate you um i'm gonna go out on a limb and say netflix does not recreate you you know and that's that's saying you know or sorry that's not to say that you shouldn't watch netflix ever but it's just saying like are you spending a majority of your downtime recreating yourself and what you know what it means to be you um what it means to be a human overall are you connecting with other people are you spending time in community are you

spending time with god um yeah searching for recreation i think is at the heart of leisure i think too a distinction between say recreation or leisure and then on the other hand what would you say distracting yourself to death or uh or dissociating is one takes work. So like leisure takes effort. Like I'm giving up the internet in August. I'm terrified, actually. There's a lot that goes into that. I got to work my butt off in July in order to literally give my phone away for the month of August. That's amazing. Yeah, it is. I'm pumped and I'm blessed to have a sort of job in which I'm able to do that. Not everyone does, but I think we can do something. We can give up anything on the weekend.

But the point is, it's not like I'm great at leisure. All that means you're lazy. No, it's actually the opposite. Because I have to put work in to sit still with a book. It takes nothing to distract yourself for three hours on Netflix. It takes a great deal of effort to sit down in adoration for an hour. Yes, yes, absolutely. And that, I mean, part of that work is what it means to be human as well.

You know, we identify with the things that we place our action into. And so what are you pouring action into? Yeah. Well, what I want to do is we're going to take a quick break, come back. I want to talk about Magdala Ministries, some of the experiences you've had there, and then we'll take questions from those on Patreon and YouTube. Perfect. Sound good?

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That's H-A-L-L-O-W dot com slash Matt Fradd. They are the number one app on iTunes as far as Catholic apps are concerned. You know, there's a lot of these apps that help you to meditate and things like this, but they're new agey, you know, or they just teach false things, or they just lead you into that kind of way of thinking. This isn't like that. 100% Catholic, really well produced. hallo.com slash Matt Fradd. hallo.com slash Matt Fradd. And then finally, I would just like to ask you if you would consider supporting us at pintswithaquinas.com. You can give directly or you can go to Patreon and give there. We're trying to raise money for a full-time video guy.

We're also trying to launch our Pints with Aquinas Español channel, which will be called Tequila Con Aquino. So if you're enjoying this work and you want to throw us a few bucks every month, that really adds up and we really appreciate it. All right, back to the interview. I'm going to scoot you closer. Yes. All right. Good to be back. So as I say, I've linked Magdala Ministries to the top of the description.

I hope everybody goes and checks that out. Whether you're a man or a woman, whether you struggle with pornography or not, please go check it out. Tell us a bit about it, how it started, how it's doing. Yeah, so the funny quote that I ended up accidentally saying on Jason Everett's podcast was it's a fresh baby ministry. Everybody's been texting me about that. They're like, how's your fresh baby ministry?

And I don't know why I said that, but that is kind of what it is. It's very new. I believe, I mean, I spoke to you in February or March and kicked it off right after that, I think. So we're still learning the ropes, but we do have small groups. They're currently closed because we don't have enough moderators. So if you are a woman and you have experienced this addiction and are in a state of recovery in which you can mentor other women please also go onto the site and you know fill out the form because you could be a small group moderator and we need you um but we have small groups um you can join virtual small groups so we're about to start doing them over zoom um but then we also do a lot of activities on patreon so i'm about to start a book study of

the four loves for our patrons on patreon um so if you want to support us and join in for stuff like book studies or exclusive podcast episodes join us on patreon um we also have the podcast the magdala podcast that just finished season one and we're gonna start season two yeah and then um our last thing is just blog posts so we have several writers who will write on different um different topics and within obviously this sphere of like sexuality and pornography and whatnot um and so we try to regularly post on the blog but again we're like really getting geared up so we need support we need excitement we need people to join us and again how many women are currently coming to you guys for advice and support? I think

we have 185 who have filled out the form to be in a small group. That makes me so happy. Yeah. That's incredible. Yeah. And then we have, I think between, we have, I believe six moderators right now for small groups. I think between all of us, because some of those are still on the waiting list, I think we're serving over a hundred in those small groups. So we try to keep them to, you know, a decent size, like maybe six to eight tops. But for the most part, yeah, we're trying to chip away at that number. But again, we need more manpower. All right. So what happens today? There's a woman watching. She wants to get connected. She goes to Magdala Ministries. How does she get connected? What does that look like? There's a little tab at the top that says,

you know, it's like the home about or whatever. There's one that says join a group. So she can go and she can fill out a form and it will be sent to me right now. I'm the only person who has access to the form if that's comforting to anybody. But she can fill out her name and just contact information and then she can kind of tell us where she's at

a little bit. And that helps us kind of see maybe what kind of help we can recommend if maybe a small group isn't the best bet right now. We've had a couple women who maybe need a little more time or maybe need some therapeutic help before a small group would be beneficial to them. But that kind of gives us an idea of where to put people. Another big one is that if they're married, we tend to try to put the married women together so they can have very open conversation with each other. So that's been kind of a qualifier, I guess. But then you can also say like, I'm not ready to join a group and I would like to know more. And then we reach out to you via email just with more information on what Magdala does, encouraging them to listen

to the podcast, join us on Patreon, read the blog um and then just say reach out to us whenever you're ready we're here for you we're praying for you um or you can select you know i would like to join as a moderator so there's a few different options on that form good stuff yeah but it's very easy to find and then we have like little buttons all over the site being like join a group join a group join a group which again we are on a wait list i just want to warn everybody but um but yeah you will get back to them even if there's a wait yes you get back to them yes before the wait's over yes and we don't have like a i would love to say i get back to you the day of but it's yeah it takes a while you have a husband be good to him first it takes a while yeah yeah yeah okay that's that's really cool um i mean that's i remember you reaching out and us chatting in february i can't believe you have that many women and that's so beautiful

because yeah i mean it's so easy to like send out a post and get like a thousand likes or something, but you're dealing with like a hundred plus human beings who are admitting their desire to change and something they find probably embarrassing. That's beautiful. Did you ever think that we'd get this big so quickly? I couldn't tell. I kind of dove in. I mean, I spoke to you and then I think you told me like, think about it for a week or something. And so my husband and I did a novena and we were just like, all right, let's let's see, you know, how I feel. And then by the end, I already had he was like, slow down, because I had the website created. I was like on Squarespace, like, whoo, just like going crazy. I'm just like going crazy. Yeah, good for you. But I think like, yeah, I didn't know what it would be. It was definitely like a stab in the dark.

And I was like, you know, yeah, God bless it or block it. Like if women need this, if this is what women need right now, then send them, you know. So he's sent them so far. Yeah. I'm thinking of that scripture, you know, he who is faithful in small things will be put in charge of more things. And I think the fact that you've prayed about this, you know, that that's beautiful. The fact that you are choosing not to be on social media, though you could reach 10 times the amount of people because you think that's one of the ways in which women get hooked on porn. Just how, yeah, that's beautiful. That's glorious. And I think our

Lord will not only continue to bless you, because in a way, who cares about you? What we care about is these women coming to you who are looking for life yes and that's who you're serving and yes you're beautiful for doing it thank you so much yeah well let's take some questions if that's okay with you we haven't seen these questions ahead of time um so if you're in uh if you're in the live chat feel free to at pints with aquinas and send us send us a question here uh jessica foster i just want to be careful of reading people's names i told people say you want to and send us a question here. Jessica Foster, I just want to be careful of reading people's names. I told people, say you want to be anonymous if you do,

but this person didn't. So how can I charitably correct other Catholic women regarding matters of purity? I have several practicing Catholic friends who see no problem sharing a bed with their boyfriends, having long make-out sessions. But I have no idea how to address it or whether I should, especially since I don't exactly have a saintly past.

Bless you. I think it's a great question. I think this is hard for women and I'm very opinionated. So this is a hard one for me that I'm trying to put into practice. Don't, like, try not to have an opinion about something unless somebody has entrusted you with that information, right? So, like, if a friend is saying something in passing, the level of correction you give them needs to be very small. But if you have a friend coming to you saying, I think this is okay, this is what we're doing, or this is what we did last night, then you get to have more of a response.

So the response has to fit the level of trust given to you. right so like the response has to fit the level of trust given to you um i think when we give our opinions in spaces where we're not super trusted it just comes across as judgment um so if there's only been comments in passing i would say like facilitate a deeper conversation with these friends you know um just talk to them about their relationships talk to them about like you know how they're living out virtue in general you know how they see the relationship going and then these things will kind of naturally come up i found and then address it from there um but i think and charitably speaking to it is just kind of i think kind of asking that question of like you know what are you looking for when you do that or like do you find that makes it harder for you to not do other

things or it's just asking those questions instead of just being like, well, you know, like the church says X, Y, and Z. Don't hit them with that immediately. Ask the probing questions. I like that. And what would you say to the last thing she said there about especially since I don't exactly

have a saintly past, she wonders whether she'd even addressed it at all. What do you say to people like that who are like, I'm no one to speak? None of us have a saintly past. None of us have a saintly past. None of us have a saintly past. Nobody, and I think nobody has perfect chastity, especially. We are very marred by the world we live in.

So I think, yeah, if we believe that about ourselves, like, you know, I can't speak on these truths because I don't have a saintly past and none of us would ever speak at all, you know? Or none of us should ever speak at all, basically. That's right. I think it's important too to remember that hypocrisy doesn't mean failing to live up to your own standards. Yeah. In that sense, if that were true, we're all hypocrites. No,

a hypocrite is somebody who demands something of everybody else that he doesn't demand of himself. Yes. So if you're saying to your friend, stop having long makeout sessions with your boyfriend while you're choosing to continue to do that yes you are absolutely a hypocrite but you're not a hypocrite but you're not a hypocrite yeah exactly okay uh joseph uh let's see i can't just deschenes i'm sorry joseph he says he's a new patron he's gonna quit being a patron after i just mocked his last name and messed it up. Sorry, not sure how, let's see here. I'd be curious to hear you address couples who make the argument that pornography helps them

with their love lives. Would they take a different approach towards a couple versus a single man or a woman on pornography use? Thank you. That's a really good question. And this is actually something I think about often is that particular line the you know this helps us um but i think that kind of goes at the what you think the definition of pornography is is like you're you're welcoming somebody else into your

bedroom that's very private would you want you know to live people in front of you like demonstrating what you should be doing you know no not necessarily so why bring a screen like featuring something in yeah you wouldn't go to like a whorehouse and sit before a prostitute and a john right exactly um but i think that kind of gets at what couples actually think pornography is if they don't think it's that if they don't think it's that equivalent um you can't necessarily answer that question very clearly for them. You have to like make sure you're acting on the same first principle here and talking about the same thing. But I'm not sure. Do you have a designated response to couples who think that?

Well, I would say, like I said earlier, pornography offers us something. And sometimes it's helpful to acknowledge what that something is. And so it may be the case that a couple says, well, when we watch pornography and engage in sexual intercourse, it's far more pleasurable. And you could say, okay, but it's going to destroy your marriage. So it's not that it's not giving you something. It's that it's perverting what you ought to be engaged in. As Jason Everett has said, pornography is not the fulfillment of marriage, you know, it's the distortion of love. I've heard intimacy described as into me see. But if I'm in that most intimate of acts while turning my gaze from my beloved to this thing yeah this this is clearly a severe violation

so i would say if a couple is watching pornography and they're watching this right now i would say yeah it's a grave sin which will not only harm your soul but it will destroy your marriage if you're interested in seeing the stats on that go check out my friend gary wilson's website yourbrainonporn.com. Have you ever checked that out? Oh, yeah. Gary was a good friend. Do you know he passed away about a month ago?

No, I didn't know that. Yeah, he was a hero. I love that man. And he's done such great work. And he was an atheist, you know, or at least agnostic. He is this man who's like leading the charge in many respects. But, you know, he documents that, like, if you would like to be sexually dissatisfied and frustrated porn is the ticket yeah according to these 70 plus studies etc so yeah people might want to check that out just because something gives you something

initially it doesn't mean it won't cripple you in the long run that's a good answer um let's see here uh emma k says do you have advice for a husband or boyfriend of a woman who once struggled or does continue to struggle with sexual sin? So what's your advice to a man here? I think he's saying, is he? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for that question. Yeah. I'm glad I get to talk about this. Um, I think men, you know, cause women hear it from men, Um, I think men, you know, cause women hear it from men, right? But I think men in that situation have even more of a chance to be the face of Christ to the woman who is talking to them. So I would entreat any man who's in that situation to really, really think about that in the moment and ask for the grace to be the face of Christ because your reaction could make or break this

person's journey. Um, Another thing I would say, though, is that you are allowed to be hurt. You are very, very allowed to be hurt by this. If this comes up in your relationship, you have a right to that pain, even that shock, but that doesn't mean you have to necessarily portray that in the moment, you know, or throughout. Luckily enough, like all of the men that i have had relationships with or including my husband but um even guys that i you know pseudo dated or something like that their reaction has always been extremely gracious i have never received um i've never received a reaction from a man that i was in somewhat of a relationship with uh that that hurt me. They all lifted me up. And I

think that was extremely powerful and helpful as I journeyed through this is that like they're, most of them struggled with it as well, but a couple of them didn't. And then, yeah, and they would just kind of look at me and just say like, wow, like, thank you. And most of them would tell me I was brave. And that was really helpful too. So tell them they're brave, you know, tell them they're strong and yeah, but just look them in the eye. Don't look away. I think that's a big one. Look them in the eye, hold that gaze and just tell them what you, like what you think they are, that they're beautiful, that they're brave. Start affirming them and thank them for telling you. That's a huge one too, is when people express gratitude, like thank you for sharing that with me or thank you. That's a huge one too, is when people express gratitude,

like thank you for sharing that with me or thank you. You know, it feels like you gave them a gift and not just like crapped on their day, you know, like telling them that you had this addiction. Thank them. I would also point out that you as the partner have a self-interested reason to thank them. Namely, if you would like your partner, boyfriend, spouse, to continue being honest with you,

if that's something you would like, then it will help you if you thank them. Again, it doesn't mean you can't be hurt, angry, shocked, but to say, I am so grateful that you told me this. I don't ever want you to hide things from me, even if you think I'd be upset. This means the world to me that you'd be this honest.

Like, if you want your spouse to be honest with you, say those things. Because if I say to my spouse, or somebody says to their spouse, I looked at pornography, and they freak out, again, I'm not diminishing that, because I understand it's an emotional thing, and people have a right to be angry, as you say.

But I'm going to be less likely because it's like, I don't want to like upset you and I don't like having conflict. I don't like feeling like crap. So I won't tell you if I, you know. Yeah. And I, I would say too,

if you've had that reaction, like say your girlfriend or spouse has told you this and then, um, you did react that way, just apologize, you know, try your best to rectify that situation um a heartfelt apology goes a long way but just saying like i'm so sorry i reacted that way i was

hurt and i was confused about how to react um let's talk about this again let's revisit just know that if you did react out of shock it's not over basically that's good it's a good answer now this question is very similar let's see here um i just just had it here had to do with how we bring this up in a dating relationship oh i love this question yeah so so how like let's say there's a lady um and she's like yeah i just started dating this guy like how do I bring this up? Hmm. I think there's a couple of similarities to what I said about telling your friends. You know, just like show your own ownership of this problem.

But I think it is a little more dramatic when you're bringing it up in a relationship. My policy, because I also, along with this question, I get the when, you know, when should I tell my significant other? My policy was always like, honesty is best about this. And I kind of would put it out on the table, like on like a second date. I think my husband knew, I think you knew before we even started dating. It was like our second conversation, you knew, because I was running a ministry. And so I was like, yeah, by the way, you know, but, and then I shared my full story later but i think honesty is the best policy um and it's going to be difficult i i don't think i should lie to anybody and say that that's like not a difficult conversation i think it is easier to tell other women um but start with yeah with

the i would like to be honest with you um about how this is going to affect our relationship i have this piece of my history or i'm struggling with this presently and i want to be honest with you about how this is going to affect our relationship. I have this piece of my history or I'm struggling with this presently. And I want to be honest because I want your help. I want, you know, you to know me and I want, you know, I want this to be a good relationship. So I would always take the angle of like, yeah, I want you to know this about me, like for our sake, you know, taking that angle instead of being like here's just like this emotional dump instead saying i think you need to notice so we can be as virtuous as possible um and placing the focus beyond your addiction and just placing it on the relationship itself

if that makes sense um but the when i think is individual again i brought it up quickly because i was running a ministry and and just wanted to be honest. But I think, you know, some people it takes time and give yourself that time, you know, like I think don't take too long, obviously. But one thing I've found helpful in speaking to men and I wonder what you think about this is maybe saying to your significant other, you've started dating them. Because I think the fear is you don't want to like bring this up casually no you want them to know that this is a conversation that's going to require your attention and there's a there's a weight to it uh so i've suggested saying something like hey would it be okay if we met tomorrow and i just have some stuff i'd love to share with you oh yeah because you're

kind of preparing them yeah yeah they go home they go to bed they know that there's some kind of conversation coming oh boy yeah yeah it's not just like hey you want to get a coffee and oh by the way and that can take somebody off guard yeah we're not always the best when we're taken off guard but be intentional about this kind of helping them yeah it gives it help prepares them but yeah i like that a lot uh emily Ann Lucy G says, how would you deal with triggers that come up while ministering to others? Also, does Magdala help those with issues around emotional chastity?

We don't, I don't think we address emotional chastity. I still don't know what emotional chastity means. People keep explaining it to me and I keep not understanding what they mean. I'm not sure I'm the best to ask about that definition either. My assumption is it has to do with maybe engaging in relationships that might be emotionally inappropriate

given your relationship. I think it's that and the emotional progression of intimacy. I think this is a woman problem, largely. I think the emotional progression is huge. But that was an excellent question about, look, you're somebody who's struggled with this in the past as i am how is it we deal with people's stories without being triggered ourselves um it's so interesting yeah i've had a lot of people ask me this and i would say this is kind of part of that grace

too um is there's only a few times i can think of where I was like, all right, I might need to exit this conversation, you know, or I, and I've had to tell a couple people like, hey, like, I love you. I love that you're sharing this with me, but I maybe need to, I don't need to hear so many details, you know? And then if it gets to a certain point, I think saying, you know, this is, this is a little bit triggering. But I've had, I mean, I can only think of like a couple times that that has happened. I think that's part of the grace of that calling where if this ever got to the point where it was super triggering for me, I would know I need to step down. But I think any moment that I have had, it's just being honest and asking for what I need. I have other leaders who do that as well, very, very well, just set those boundaries.

But I tell women in the groups, like, I want you to be honest. I want you to be forthright. I want you, you know, to say what you need to say and get it out. But please don't share explicit details of maybe where you found content, what was going on in the content, feelings that you got from it. Like, you know, be careful with those details. And a lot of the women in the groups are so respectful of other people's triggers it's really awesome um and so they'll say like hey i'm about to share something a little more detailed or like you know share something a little more vulnerable you know

if it's triggering for you let me know um so i would say yeah i haven't encountered that too much um i think it's part of the grace of of doing it but when i do it's just set the boundaries be clear yeah be honest i don't know about you but uh yeah i mean it's probably like you i mean when i'm working with people who porn has devastated yeah i don't find that terribly appealing or triggering it's almost for me it's like a reminder for why i want to go down this road again yeah same is true when i get up and speak about it yeah it's like oh yeah i'm right good job man that's a great point i'm not doing this anymore yeah yeah morgan sims thanks for being a patron morgan says what advice or at least words of kindness would you give to girls and women who are haunted by what they have seen and or experienced even if they have been freed from the daily habit? Wow, this kind of makes me want to cry.

I would say first that I know you. I know you really well. Yeah, I think one thing you've said, I love this word, but you've said this before, is God is not scandalized by you. There's a line in a worship song that says, like, your love is proud to be seen with me. I would say that like the lord is proud to be seen with you the lord is proud of you um he's proud of how far you've come um but i know that haunting so well um i know how it like can talk to you and bog you down over and over and i wouldn't i'm lying if I say that doesn't come up on occasion still,

where it will still whisper like, oh, but you remember this. And so I would say you're known. You're not alone. I think that's a huge one for women to hear too. You're not alone in this. But just think of how far you've come. This is haunting you

because you're not looking at it all the time anymore. It know, it has to keep trying and this is how it's trying now. But it's kind of like the Israelites when they went out into the desert. It's like, why are we starving? It's like, because you're not a slave anymore. You're not a slave anymore. You are, you know, you're out in the desert maybe and you're still really struggling, but you're not a slave anymore. And focus on that. Praise God for your freedom. struggling, but you're not a slave anymore. And focus on that. Praise God for your freedom. That's what gets the haunted or the haunting voices to go away is praising God for the freedom and the healing that he has brought. So I would encourage them to do that. But first, just know that they're known. Beautiful. Let's see here. Man, there's so many wonderful people asking questions in the chat.

They're all coming very quickly. This person says, I quit porn 12 years ago as a single woman and now married. I struggle with disordered fantasies while having sex with my husband. Sex feels dirty. How do you go about healing from this? Huh? Yeah. sex with my husband sex feels dirty how do you go about healing from this huh yeah as a as a newlywed i don't have much experience in this um i i would encourage you first to have honesty with your husband um i think there's a couple moments where i've struggled with something like that and telling my husband has been what kind of stops that um but also not being afraid to pray, I'd say, during, you know,

sex. I would say, like, not being afraid to, yeah, to pray, to say the name of Jesus, to ask for help. You know, you don't have to stay silent on this. But ask your husband for his help, too, and, like, receive his response to you, I would say, is what helps send those things away. Because, yeah, sex is a trigger for people when they've struggled as single people, you know, and like they can have this part of a relationship now. It definitely can bring up those images and those like words and stuff. But I say like make it, you know, what, how am I trying to put this? Basically what that's trying to attack in the moment is your unity, right? It's trying to attack your sacrament. So how do you respond? You respond by uniting. You know, you respond by saying like, nope, you know, you don't get to come between this. You don't get to come into this marriage. You

have no place here. Uniting together as husband and wife, praying against this, talking about it, being aware of it together. That sends the devil packing because that's what he's trying to get at. That's great. That's really good advice advice i'd encourage people to check out christopher west's youtube channel because he's putting out a lot of fantastic content recently well a lot last year or so but um yeah i as christopher has said you know the devil doesn't have his own clay he can't create he can only distort yeah um and so one of the things he says like if you find yourself reflecting on some sexual image or person that you have seen in pornography, as opposed to don't think about it, he says, say something like, Lord, I thank you for the beauty of this person. You know, like, it's almost like in your prayer, you're untwisting what sin has twisted.

And so I think for that reason, it is important to sort of say, I thank you for the beauty of sexual desire and delight. This was your idea. I thank you for it. I thank you for orgasms. And I thank you for sex and praising God for that so as not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. But of course, that only takes you so far. And I would highly recommend people check out Christopher West

and the work he's doing at Theology of the Body because they're putting on excellent conferences for people in Pennsylvania that you can go to. I think they're also online. Yeah, that's amazing. Check him out. I like that a lot. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Awesome. Anything else you want to address before we begin to wrap up? I think I'm good. Thank you for the work you're doing. I would ask everybody to please pray for Rachel and Magdala Ministries and to go check them out. Link is in the description below, top there. So as you say, if there's a woman out there right now who you're watching this, you found a good degree of freedom from this yourself, and you might want to be a moderator for Magdala Ministries, go to that link and suggest that you

become a moderator because this is good work you're doing. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thanks for having me. Yeah. Yeah. Joy. Cool. All right. Thank you. That's it. How was that for a crash landing? Yes. Thank you. Nå er vi på Norske Norske. សូវាប់បានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបានបាូវាប់ពីបានប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្រាប់ពីប្� Thank you. you