Pivot - A letter to Twitter, Uber's data transparency, and Away proves startup culture is rough

Episode Date: December 10, 2019

Kara and Scott talk about a letter Scott wrote to the board about concerns at Twitter. They discuss Uber's data report on sexual assault that occurred in their rides. In fails, Kara and Scott get into a new story about the brutal culture at Away. Aviation gin's "sequel" to the Peloton ad is everybody's win! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Support for Pivot comes from Virgin Atlantic. Too many of us are so focused on getting to our destination that we forgot to embrace the journey. Well, when you fly Virgin Atlantic, that memorable trip begins right from the moment you check in. On board, you'll find everything you need to relax, recharge, or carry on working. Buy flat, private suites, fast Wi-Fi, hours of entertainment, delicious dining, and warm, welcoming service that's designed around you. delicious dining and warm, welcoming service that's designed around you. Check out virginatlantic.com for your next trip to London and beyond, and see for yourself how traveling for business can always be a pleasure. to get your customers to notice you, Constant Contact has what you need to grab their attention. Constant Contact's award-winning marketing platform offers all the automation, integration,

and reporting tools that get your marketing running seamlessly, all backed by their expert live customer support. It's time to get going and growing with Constant Contact today. Ready, set, grow. Go to ConstantContact.ca and start your free trial today. Go to ConstantContact.ca for your free trial. ConstantContact.ca. Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher. And I'm Scott Galloway. And Kara, the big news. No, no.

You're not going to take my thunder. There's no thunder taking. Hold on. Hold on. The sexiest podcaster alive. That's right. Adweek said I'm the sexiest podcaster alive. Stop.

Stop. You're stealing my thunder, you narcissist. Listen. Cue the music, Rebecca. We are the champions, my friend. Yes, we are the champions, my friend. I like that she used we. Scott, we've got an exciting announcement.

Rebecca, stop playing that awful music. Listen, Pivot won an award. We won Thought Leadership Podcast of the Year, which is very funny because we really do need to have some thoughts. Thought leadership? I am. Okay, let me just say, I am so sick of not being objectified. I have my husband and everyone else I know gave me a Peloton, and I now have a girlish figure. I'm sick of being appreciated for my brain.

I'm sick of it. Is this like the Miss Congeniality Award? What the fuck does that even mean? Thought leadership? Have they met us? Literally, have they met us? We're very thoughtful people, I think. That's literally like the least sexy award ever invented.

But the sexy award was won by me, Kara Swisher, for Recode Decode, Adweek's tech podcast of the year and overall podcast of the year. I beat Michael Barbero. I kicked Joe Rogan's ass. I mean, really. It's really fantastic. Seriously. It's clear that Vox is – does Vox own the company that owns Adweek? I read that and I almost swallowed my tongue.

I'm like, podcast of the year. I'm an important and smart. Did you see? I'm smart. I am just a really fantastic person. You're like Helen Reddy at the 1978 Grammys. You're just cleaning up everything. I am woman, hear me roar. Podcast of the year. The number's too big to ignore.

Rico Tigo. Listen to me. That's really impressive. All the white guys who yammer away like you win all the time. It is time for a lady to win the thing. I'm sorry. No, you cleaned up. And congratulations.

I think you're officially the godmother of podcasting. Seriously. I believe I am. And by the way, guess what our next stop is? Pulitzers. They just announced an audio category for future awards. You're like Harvey Weinstein out there trying to get yourself a Pulitzer. So I just have a quick question.

I'm getting a Pulitzer, and then you're going to bow down to me. That's all I'm going to say. Like I do twice a week. Anyways. Yes. You know what? I'm just curious. When did you start podcasting?

Like what got you into it? Five. Five. I just suddenly realized these earphones and everything else. I think with the AirPods, it was five years ago or more. I just was sort of like listening to someone. I thought, this is going to be great because you're in people's ears. These ear things are getting so much, these devices are getting so much better.

I was starting to listen to them. And so I grabbed an intern. I literally was running the Recode site or doing a lot of writing in the Recode site. And I just got tired of the texting. And I thought, I'm going to do this. Because I was going to take the Code Conference 365 days a year. It was just on a whim, and Jim Bankoff let me do it, and nobody knows whatever I'm doing. And that was that.

That was the beginning of it. Thank you. That's my origin story. Wow. That's it. That's it. I just wanted to do it. Yeah.

And it's a medium that's now, I think it's going to be over a billion dollars. It's the only ad-supported medium. You know what was the first podcast I ever listened to? What? The podcast of you interviewing me on Recode Decode. Oh, yeah. That's right. And you know what I thought was?

You know what? Because, you know, I'm a narcissist as well. I listened to the whole thing, and I had one word reaction. I'm like, meh, this medium will never work. What is this show? Love that episode, and that's where you predicted the Amazon Whole Foods thing. Yeah, that started it all. That's right.

That built all this. This is why I'm in a panic room right now. Listen to me. Look it. NPR's been doing it. A lot of people have been doing amazing journalism, but we have just stepped in and grabbed all the thunder. In any case— What podcast do you listen to?

I'm just kidding. What does Kara Swisher listen to other than herself? What do you listen to? I listen to a lot of history podcasts. I like a historical. Like Radical History or Visionist History? Like what? All of them.

All of them. I listen to whatever is around. And I do listen to other interview shows sometimes. I've always liked, you know, Terry Groves. I listen to a lot of interview stuff, but I do like the historical ones. And I also listen to historical audio books on tape. Right now I'm listening to a podcast about the making of the Brooklyn Bridge, and it's riveting. John Roebling has just died his father.

God, no wonder we're thought leaders of the year. Can you talk about the Kardashians? Geez, that's rough. Anyways, congratulations, Kara. That's wonderful. Listen, it would be interesting to see if Spotify starts going after prestige journalism more is just the way. And Apple starts putting more money in this because the way Netflix going for Oscars and Golden Globes and things like that. It's just an interesting – like they just did it with the Irishman and marriage story, which is interesting.

We'll talk about that later. Let's talk about big stories. I want to start with a letter you wrote to Twitter's board of directors. I know you don't want to talk about it too much. You got a lot of attention for it. You started this on the podcast last week, but then you wrote a very detailed open letter on your blog, No Mercy, No Malice. Maybe a little malice. letter on your blog, no mercy, no malice, maybe a little malice. You actively asked Omid Kordesani,

who I know very well, when he used to work at Google, who's the executive chairman of Twitter, to remove Jack Dorsey in a no confidence vote. And you actually sort of slapped around in him. And just to be clear, you disclosed that you are a Twitter shareholder in the letter. Talk about this, because it got a lot of attention. What did it get a lot of attention? talk about this because it got a lot of attention what did it get a lot of attention so look we talked about this off mic and I'm not entirely sure how to approach it because I want to

give the company a chance to respond before piling on they're not going to respond to you but okay you never know actually I think they will but anyways look the letter speaks for itself I think Twitter needs to start commanding the space it occupies. I think if you were to look at any company that has the equivalent reach or influence,

it's a company trading at 20 to 40x the valuation. I think there's no company in the world whose opportunity relative to its performance is this out of whack. relative to its performance is out of whack. At the same time, you know, I do want to kind of move on because I don't want us to be accused of using this platform to pimp my financial interests. I get that. I get that. But you brought up some very pertinent things. I mean, I think more to the point besides the stock,

let's move away from the stock, is these issues around the CEO not being present, which we talked about last week in detail, wanting to go to Africa and different things. And you honed in on the idea that he has two jobs, which I think has always been an issue, and that it's never been more important than ever, like you talked about it being in the Mueller report. There are a lot of very – it's a really smart – whether Scott owns the stock or not, it's a really smart analysis of the situation, and that whether it's doing well enough is another aspect to it.

But one of the things is whether it's running the company well, whether it's making products well, whether, you know, with the departure of a lot of executives. It's never been more in the news and yet it's – the management still continues to be up and down even though Dorsey has done some great things like getting rid of political edge, which I think removes a pain point off his plate, which he has many. Well, look, the primary, people have asked me, what would you do that's different? And I think that generally speaking, activists, investors are frustrated operators that come up with a bunch of recommendations. And then if they get on the board, or what's happened to me when I get on boards of companies is I generally find out that I'm not as smart as I thought and they're not as dumb as I'd hoped. So I didn't make a lot of tactical recommendations, but I just think it's kind of a basic IQ test of corporate governance that a company that's in the

midst of an election year that has potentially been weaponized to huge effect on behalf of bad actors, a company that has the kind of reach and influence and hasn't been able to monetize it. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say it deserves a full-time CEO. And the issue is... That's a little limb. That's like a regular tree trunk. Many people feel that. I think Vijay Gade or someone like that should probably be... Well, not only that, to be fair, I do think Jack Dorsey is a full-time CEO. Unfortunately, he's a full-time CEO of Square, where he has 85% of his wealth. But anyway, I've been trapped here. I'm going down a rabbit hole.

We'll see what management says. I appreciate you bringing it up. But let's get to other news. No, no, no. I'm not done with this one yet. What's interesting about this is it reminds me of Chris Saka did a letter like this many years ago. I don't know if you remember. He was saying how I'd run Twitter.

And he's a big investor in it. You're allowed to comment on it as long as you disclose. And what was interesting is he got a lot of kudos. You're getting killed by the VCs. You made a stupid Twitter error this week. They piled on that. The circling of the wagons on this is fascinating to me by a lot of Silicon Valley people in terms of they can do no wrong. And that's a really interesting issue, I think. Yeah. First off, I want to apologize. A guy named Vlad, I apologize, I'm not getting this name wrong, but a guy named Vlad put out a tweet early in the morning describing the Peloton ad. And I use the exact same language and I should have just retweeted his tweet or given him a hat tip. And immediately the same people whose WeWork investment I have queered or have come

after Twitter began calling me a plagiarist, which is really nice for a professor. That feels very good. But anyways, Vlad was very gracious and responded pretty much saying. But the circling of the wagons part is interesting. That was just a dumb error. I was expecting it. I expected, it's interesting, I expected on this podcast and on Twitter that I would trigger a variety of cohorts. And the only people I trigger are white males between the ages of 40 and 55 when I stand, my analysis stands between them and their second billion.

That is when things get really mean and ugly. Do you have a name for this? What is this? Yeah, I call them the third basers, the people who have conflated luck with talent and have decided that basically the arguments back and, you know, I go on my Twitter feed and look at, I wouldn't even call them arguments because I don't respond. But their basic notion is, I'm rich, so fuck you. I must be right. You don't know. They call you moronic.

I find it. I'm a moron. No data, no response to the argument, just I'm a moronic. I find it, you know, I've been threatening them. Yeah, I'm a moron. No data, no response to the argument, just I'm a moron. And it's literally, and it's interesting because young people respond more thoughtfully. They're a little bit more, they come up with data, they disagree with you. You get the bots and the crypto guys or the Tesla guys that don't make any sense, but those are just bots. But if it's an ad hominem attack, it's always from a 40 to 55-year-old white male, usually in the venture capital alternative investments industry. And their basic notion is, have you met me? Do you know who I am? And there's just absolutely no desire to have a

substantive dialogue. And by the way, I would benefit from a substantive dialogue because I get this shit wrong all the time. And I try to acknowledge what I'm wrong. The people suggest we have them on. It's Keith. I've interviewed him all the time. And I try to acknowledge what I'm wrong. The people suggest we have them on. It's Keith. I've interviewed him on the podcast. And Jason Galacanis has also been. He's trying to take your place on this podcast, I think. But one of the things that's interesting,

those are among the people that complain about you. It's really interesting. It's fascinating to watch them because they never do that to me. And I'm just as mean. Well, yeah, but there's a difference. Okay, so I've been very critical of we and Uber. And the first individual you referenced is a big angel investor, and you guessed it, we and Uber.

The last individual you referenced is about to go down as Adam Neumann minus the charisma of good looks, as he is incinerating more capital for SoftBank at Opendoor and DoorDash. So, yeah, there is a reason why these individuals— Wait, who's that? Who's that? Jason? Jason's not at SoftBank. No, the teal guy. He's not at SoftB's that? Jason? Jason's not at SoftBank. No, the teal guy.

He's not at SoftBank, is he? He's not at SoftBank. Yeah, but he's the founder of Opendoor, another SoftBank incinerator, and also DoorDash, which will go down as, again, another one that's not going to get out, that's incinerating literally billions. So, look, you can— Well, I just find it interesting. I find it interesting because I literally have been tough on many of their companies, and I've never seen them take an homonym of toughness. I think that's—listen, guys, y'all, Keith and Jason, besides the fact that I have to threaten you physically with my children— Thanks for that.

Which I hope you know. I will have my children take care of it if you'd like. But, you know, make some—if you're going to do this on Twitter, calling a moron is not really the way to do it. You look like idiots. And you need to actually have some cogent arguments that he can then – Scott can then respond to. And if not, I will send my children after you. How's that? I like it.

Thanks for that. I feel much safer now. I agree with you. Moroni, it's like ridiculous. It's ridiculous. They need to like make their arguments besides I'm rich and you're not. They really do. They need to have some cogent their arguments besides I'm rich and you're not. They really do. They need to have some cogent analysis.

And we dare them. We double dare them because we're award winning now. That's right. Sexiest podcasters. There we go. We did not win sexiest podcast alive. It doesn't exist. Although we should award it to ourselves.

Listen, the other thing, speaking of Uber, they released a report detailing and analyzing incidents of sexual assault in their ride shares as they had promised they were going to. The company disclosed more than 3,000 incidents of sexual assaults that happened on their ride. That's about eight assaults a day. Obviously, they do billions of rides. That was their sort of talking point. But it's the first time that any major ride-hailing service has released this kind. Scott, can you talk about this from a brand strategy or PR perspective? They just got booted from London for misconduct.

Is this transparency an attempt to get ahead of the issues or just a smart brand and optics management? Well, the first thing is, and I'm really curious for your thoughts. The first thing is it's shocking, right? And then as a data person, you immediately go, well, is this worse on Uber or is this just a function of someone actually doing the data around what happens with ride hailing and taxi cabs? But, I mean, at first it really shocks you. It's already changed my behavior. I was starting to think that I could have Ubers take my kids to Little League practice and there's just no way I'm going to do that now. I mean, it really was. It was shocking and upsetting.

But the second that you go to the next thing, my genuine belief here is that trying to get out ahead of the issue and be somewhat transparent and take the lead around it is a smart move. And they did, I think, concurrently announce some of the safety features they're trying to build in. So, like, I think they get, it's easy, it's easy to, it's a problem. And they're trying, is this something specific to Uber about their culture? I don't think it is. I think it's something specific to the activity that's creating a dangerous atmosphere. But to a certain extent, just having the data out there is

productive, because I do think you're going to see action against it and hopefully a reduction in it. But again, it's another thing as a male. I just never would have, you're safe in the back of a car. People don't start acting weird with you. I mean, they might take the wrong bridge and then you go insane. But I've never, as a, you know, a 6'2 male, I've never felt threatened. So again. Well, welcome. That is my column in the New York Times this week, as a, you know, a 6'2 male, I've never felt threatened. So, again. Well, welcome. That is my column in the New York Times this week, oddly enough, about the safety, this idea around safety. I think what's interesting is. You're right.

You're right. Human beings behave, whether you're in a hotel or a car sharing, you're going to get these kind of behaviors everywhere. Like, no matter what you're selling, kind of, if you have these encounters. It happens in taxis. It's happened, you know, taxis would be the most, it's obviously, there's been lots of assaults. There's tons and tons of assaults in taxis. No one's really keeping track of those particularly. And so that's good that they're keeping track. That's one of the things. But I think Uber from its early days did not focus on safety in any way.

They did not make sure they vetted the drivers, did not ensure, you know, that this was the safest ride, did not vet the cars. And so this is what's coming to haunt them, I think, in that way. And I think under Darko Sushrahi, I think they're trying to do that. Obviously, there's issues around payments and things like that that are still problematic for this company in economics. But they didn't do this for the longest time, and they did not take – they didn't do a very good job of vetting. They didn't do a very good job of safety. And now they're trying to backfill this problem. And the reason being, which is what I'm going to argue in the New York Times column this week, is that these people have never felt unsafe a day in their lives, and therefore, they don't understand it.

They don't empathize. We don't empathize. You don't empathize. Because you would. You're not going to want to go, yay, this. We don't empathize. You don't empathize because you would. You're not going to want to go, yay, this.

But there's been enough incidents of them for them to understand that they need to be not perfect, but they certainly need to try harder. And so this is a great move. I did talk to Dara about it. And, you know, he's sort of every day. It's incoming essentially. But this, I think, was a good thing for them to do. I think they have to keep doing it. And then, besides releasing this data, they've got to say what they're going to do about it.

Like, very cogent things that they need to do to make this safer. Because there's going to be some level of lack of safety, no matter how you slice it, when humans come together. But they could do a better job. That's my thought. Well, Roger McNamee, who I'm a big fan of, he had a tweet that sort of summarized the issue and the problem, and it goes to the gestalt of big tech. And that is big tech, a big component of their value add is innovation. They're incredible products. Regulatory arbitrage, where they just bomb into a city and believe they can overwhelm the local authorities. There's, quite frankly frankly exploitation of people where they figure out that a lot of people who aren't working have smartphones so they can put them to work for

below minimum wage standards. But there's also the basic assault that wraps around all of it is how do we make this process more frictionless such that it could scale like no other business in this category? So anything that adds friction, checking a driver's background, a probation period for the driver, right? Installing a camera in the car, anything that adds friction, it gets a red light from moment one. And the reality is all of these safety, all of these issues, all of this porous nature that makes the platform weaponized, subject to abuse, that you can reach out and DM on Instagram underage girls. All of these things are a function of, these aren't evil people, but part of their gestalt around building shareholder value, their DNA, is to never

acknowledge or greenlight anything that might result in friction of scale. And the majority of the problems come from their inability to recognize that friction is a component of safety and of responsibility, like mature construction of businesses. You just used two thoughtful words, friction and gestalt. Friction and gestalt. There you go. Friction gestalt. There you go.

My wife's German. I use those words for foreplay. Oh, God. I knew that would happen. Sometimes I dress up like Poland and she invades me. That's our Sunday night. No, no, no, no. That is not happening.

That's some good Cold War humor. That's some good Cold War humor. And it's a good call to take a quick break. That is your one. You get one every episode. That's all you get. And that is it. The itch is scratched. Horrible Polish sex joke. That's all you get, and that is it. The itch is scratched.

Horrible Polish sex joke, and it's not going anywhere. Poor Erica Anderson. She's like, I have had it with this guy. All right, okay, Scott, time for a quick break. I have had it with this guy. We'll be right back. Listen, I am the podcaster of the year, so just back down. Sexiest podcaster alive.

No. Okay, Scott, time for a quick break. We'll be right back with more pivot. Thought leader. What bullshit. More pivot. Hush up. Fox Creative.

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We've tamed Scott. Kara Swisher, comma, podcast of the year, comma, has managed to do her excellent job. Scott, we're going to do listener mail now. You got an interesting email last week from someone who wanted to remain anonymous about their experience at WeWork. They said that their family member worked as a salesperson at the company for about six months before quitting. They were paid more on commission than the rent the tenant was paying for WeWork for the entire lifetime of the lease they signed. Scott, can you talk about this from a management perspective? Basically, this shows they were indications this model was going to fail long before their S-1, and this is what the listener said. This is a Ponzi scheme,

essentially. So, what do you think about that? I'm seriously, my mind stopped. I still can't get over the fact you beat out the daily for podcast of the year. Anyways, my brain's just catching up to what's going on today. But anyways, so like, you know who caused this, this listener mail thing? Amazon. And that is Amazon basically reconstructed or reshaped the relationship between investors and the marketplace. And as a result, absolutely reshaped behavior and capital allocation. Now, how did this happen? How are we getting to WeWork? But go ahead.

Let me see this. I'll get there. It's a long, windy road. But I'm a thought leader. I'm a thought leader. Let me just do a Michael Barbaro voice. Go on. No, go on.

So. Anyways, you know him. I'd love to have some dirt on him. He's very intriguing to me. Anyways, look, for the first time in history, a company got third most valuable company in the world and arguably the most influential company in the world with almost no or negligible profitability. arguably the most influential company in the world, with almost no or negligible profitability. And what Amazon taught the markets to do, which drive everything as compensation typically drives everything, is they taught the markets to replace profits with vision and growth. And so all of a sudden, companies take a page out of that book and go, as long as we can massively grow the top line,

profitability takes a distant number too. So if we, as a means of growing our top line faster than any real estate company in history, can incentivize brokers to get any tenant in these 10 new buildings or facilities we're opening up every week and create a top line growth that is unprecedented in the world of real estate, if we build it, they will come, they being massive shareholder value, even if it means an economic model that makes no sense, including giving 100% of the commission to the broker responsible for growing that top line. All right. So, why did it go wrong here? Like, it worked for Amazon. Amazon was people not, were people not paying attention. What was different here in this WeWork situation? Well, everybody needs a little bit of sugar and then there's diabetes, right?

So what happened as a species, it was drilled into us to want salty, fatty, bloody food. But once it became produced institutionally, our instincts didn't catch up and now we have tremendous obesity in this country. And what's happened here is that investors are starting to catch up with the fact that we are overindulging, our companies are overindulging in this notion of replacing profits with growth. And Amazon always had positive gross margins. I mean, in the year Amazon went public, I think it lost $30 million. It wasn't losing $100 million a week. It was a big deal. It was called Amazon.bomb. I don't know if you remember those headlines and stuff like that. Yeah, people thought. People were onto it then.

It's just that Wall Street gave them a pass, and Jeff Bezos just didn't communicate with Wall Street that much. The Google guys were the same way. So this is an idea that worked on steroids, and the marketplace has figured out this isn't just wanting a little bit of sugar, a little bit of red meat, a little bit of fatty food. This is out of control. This has come to the point where, and it's a new classic company. It's a company where for a short time, a dumb investor or cheap capital fuels valuation as a function of top line growth. And they have access to that cheap capital and they're what I would deem incinerators. And there's no prospect of profitability.

Amazon always had a fairly bright-line path or a fairly obvious path to profitability. The only other company that's been able to get away with this to the same extent and has managed to replace top-line growth with quote-unquote subscribers is Netflix. Netflix, you're right. For everybody else, it's like at one point, at some point, the music stops.

But let me, before we move on to Winsome Hills, what is the differentiation? Why do they get, why does Amazon and Netflix get a pass and WeWork and others do not? Because Amazon, there was a path, I mean, for a lot of reasons.

I mean, WeWork was no Amazon. Amazon got to a point where it was pretty clear if they stopped massively investing in everything from- Or marketing or whatever, yeah. Yeah, not even marketing, but investment in smart speakers, fulfillment. I mean, they were making true investments that were going to result in flywheels. They had Amazon Web Services, which I would argue is the most valuable company in the world right now. It just stuck in another company.

Whereas WeWork, let's look at it, was building no moats. It was just massively buying top line. It was guilty of incredibly poor governance. Its flywheel effect spun out things like WeWork, WeLive, a school. None of these things made absolutely any sense. And it was genuinely investing just to create the illusion and burning capital. Whereas Amazon was investing in moats that would ultimately return shareholder value.

There's just an enormous difference. I talk about moats a lot. You have to build moats. Well, moats fly well. Amazon is the motiest moat of its convenience, whether it's price, whether it's logistics. They have so many. And they got into operating margin. They immediately, not immediately, but I think 10 years into their life, they went profitable for a quarter.

I just think as a means to show the market, the moment we want to be profitable, folks, we can get there. Well, just to finish this up, back in the day, AOL was always saying, if we just stop marketing, we'd make money. If you remember, that was their little line. And, of course, it's like you can't, the revenue growth, the top line isn't going to grow without your crazy discs everywhere and stuff like that. And cereal boxes. Jan Brandt, remember her? Yep. I know Jan. Jan Brandt had a whole table made out of discs. Yeah. I've actually adopted a lot of her phraseology. She had a great line that I thought was hilarious. She used to get on stage at AOL conferences when I started Red Envelope.

You had to go to AOL and basically kiss their ring to try and be in the only place that was doing e-commerce called AOL Marketplace run by a guy named Greg Chauvin. Ended up becoming a close friend. Talk about how the world has changed. And she used to get on stage and say, to resist is futile. We're going to put a disc everywhere. And it's just going to be impossible. I love Jan Brandt. Jan Brandt's great.

That is an unsung character in the history of the internet. She's quite a bit in my book, but she's great. She's a great person. That's right. You wrote a book on AOL. Yes, I did. I know Jan Brandt. But I remember the table.

It weighs like 400 tons. I think she's tired of hauling it around, but it was made of discs. Anyway, wins and fails, Scott. That is a really cogent. By the way, that was another thoughtful thought leadership position. Go on. You just feel sorry for me because all your buddies are being mean to me. You just feel sorry.

Are you kidding? Yeah. They're not my buddies. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. I'm fascinated they're not mean to you. They're mean to you and not mean to me. It's largely because I'm on the finale of Silicon Valley, which you did not know also. You're more powerful than me.

Me and Dick Costell over there. He hasn't attacked you. That's interesting. He was the CEO of more powerful than me. Me and Dick Costell over there. He hasn't attacked you. That's interesting. And he was the CEO of Twitter. Excuse me. Oh, Dick. He's a nice guy. The comedian guy?

Yeah. The former comedian? Yeah, I met him in Europe. He seemed like a lovely guy. He's lovely. He's quite lovely. Anyway, so wins and fails. So I'm going to do my wins first this week besides myself.

And you, as a side note? Is two, I can't decide between the Wonder Woman videos and posters, the new trailer. I love Wonder Woman. I cannot stand it. Linda Carter, who I met through you. I love that Wonder Woman. And secondly, Ryan Reynolds Aviation Gin ad. Oh, that was mine. Go on.

I'll give you this one. That was great. You take that one as your win. I'll take Wonder Woman. Wonder Woman is such a great brand. They've done such an amazing thing at it. It looks like a sexy as heck movie. The visuals, I love the director,

Patty Jenkins. She is a huge talent. Literally, what a talent. You can see, like, just from the trailer, all I want to do is go see this movie. It's crazy. In the theater, actually. So that is my win this week. You may go on with the gin. Aviation gin. Everyone talks about agility in the context of a bunch of programmers putting out a product quickly or copying a Snapchat feature into Facebook. That's what agility's come to mean. But agility and creativity, creativity still matters. And Ryan Reynolds,

who I think is this, I think he's just this incredible talent. I don't know how much he was involved in the production of this, but they saw an opportunity with the Peloton ad, which kind of documents

the heartwarming journey of a 116-pound model to 114 pounds over 12 months. And by the way, I stole that from Twitter and I don't know who you are. I apologize.

If you reach out to me, I will credit you or hat tip you. Anyways, it's— You're a Twitter thief. But you know what's really interesting? AJ—oh, God, I wish I—there was a fascinating—I'm going off script here on the Peloton ad. There was a fascinating analysis breakdown by—and I'll retweet. I think it's a her.

This copywriter saying, why do we hate this ad so much? And there was a real genius, I think her name is AJ Smolin. There was a real genius insight. And it was filmed as if you were the husband giving her that bike. And they put you immediately in this feeling of like, okay, I'm a fucking idiot, thoughtless husband. And it made you squirm because it immediately said it wasn't, it wasn't done in the third person. I guess that's the second person. And you were the husband, which immediately made you feel very uncomfortable. And I thought that is just, that was such a genius insight because you see the commercial and don't you immediately go, this feels kind of awkward. I wouldn't give my wife a Peloton for Christmas, and they're saying, I am giving.

They put you in those shoes. Anyways, I thought Aviation Gin's agility, they immediately found, her name is Monica Ruiz. By the way, this is the best thing that's ever happened to her. She did a good job in that ad, too. Oh, she was fantastic. It was so pitch perfect.

It was great. She did a great job. We have a mutual win. I hope she was fantastic. And her friends were so... It was so pitch perfect. It was great. And she did a great job. We have a mutual win. I hope it keeps going, like one of those old Kodak ads with Marriott Harvey. You and I, I want to hear on Twitter how many people think Podcaster of the Year, Podcaster of the Century, and Sexiest Podcaster

of Life. Saw Leader of the Year, big fucking deal. Anyways, how many think we should do a Peloton ad? You and I we should do a Peloton ad? We should do a Peloton ad. You and I should absolutely do a Peloton ad. Peloton. You have been our sponsor. We will do a Peloton.

I have a Peloton. We should do a Peloton. That would be so good. I like Peloton, too. I think it's a, you know, it's one of the few consumer tech companies whose stock was actually up

from the IPO. I don't care what Wall Street says. I got to tell you, the product is amazing. I just tried their treadmill. No, it's up. I use their app. I use it for meditation. I do it for all kinds of things when I'm thinking big thoughts that I need to do. I just tried their treadmill. No, it's up. I use their app. I use it for meditation.

I do it for all kinds of things when I'm thinking big thoughts that I need to do because I'm a thought leader. I use it for exercise. They have all these exercises. It's a combination of like a Calm app, the 7-Minute app. It's great. I'm sorry. They do a great job. Apple-like margins, recurring revenue, an app distinct to the hardware.

What will be really interesting is as they come up on the first years of public company, they have to disclose their churn and renewal and dollar renewal rates. This will be really, really interesting. I think that I would buy it again. I think Apple should buy it. That's my feeling. All right. Fails.

Fails. I don't think this is a fail, but I know you will. This will be mine. Elon Musk won the defamation case, which I think I said. You think that's a fail? No, I don't think it's a fail. I think it's a win for Elon. I would agree.

I thought this was just ridiculous to pull this Twitter scream fest. You did not. You were quite like, how dare he do this? But I was like, come on. I want to be clear. I think you can do things that are wrong. I think it was wrong for him to call a cave diver, who I would argue is a hero, a pedophile. I thought it was wrong.

But I don't think there's a legal remedy. I think you can say mean things and do mean things, and it doesn't necessarily mean you should be in court. So I actually think the court got this right. I don't think it fell under the true legal definition of defamation. And I think occasionally people can do mean things to you, and it doesn't necessarily mean that it's a legal remedy. So I think the court's got it right. I also, to his credit, on the stand, he said, I apologize. I just should have said, well done and moved on. So I think there was an actual moment of self, I don't know, self-awareness.

But think about this, distinctive, the morality or whether you think it was right. Should the CEO of a company that's trying to put a man on Mars or trying to electrify the automobile industry, should he be spending time in court defending tweets? No, that was true. That was true. It's just an error in judgment. And the thing is, no one on his board, I think, has been able to get through to him and go, okay, do you want to think about picking your battles a little bit more here? Anyway, I don't think, I think the court got it right. And I do think he, I think he handled himself or acquitted himself well on the stand.

Speaking of which, he's been driving his cyber truck around LA right now. And he ran over like a pylon. What do you think of that thing? I'm totally beflummoxed by that thing. Have you seen it? Beflummoxed? Is that a word? Is that a thought leader word? Befuddled. I'm befuddled. No, he's driving it around. I'm going to try to get a ride with him when I'm in LA. I'm going to get him to drive me around. That's what I'm doing. Oh my God.

He hit his pylon apparently. I'm going to get him to drive me around. That's what I'm doing. Oh, my God. He hit his pylon, apparently. He's off to his next thing. But have you seen it? I literally, if someone gave you a million chances to sketch what the pickup truck from Tesla would look like, it looks like something, looks like that Simpsons episode where Homer gets to design a car. And I just, I look at the thing, I'm like, that's a pick-up. It's either genius

or it's going to be the biggest fail. I can't figure it out. What is your fail? What is your fail? Well, my fail is more of a rant. All right, about a way. It is a fail. It wasn't a good story.

This is a story about, The Verge published a story about the history of bullying from the CEOs of Away, largely one of the CEOs. And then the company sent out an email telling employees not to talk about or share the story. It's, you know, it's a tough environment. And this was a piece about how tough the environment is.

And it just wasn't a very attractive photo of a company. It was not a good picture of the company. And it seemed rather accurate from all. They seem to be insane on Slack. So what do you think? You do not think this is a fail necessarily. Well, I think there's a word for that kind of stressful, unfair, high-pressure, full-body contact company that you're not going to find justice in, and it's called startup. And I think that we like to think there's this Hallmark Channel version of startups and that we can build amazing value and billions of dollars by giving everybody

paternity leave and having snacks and saying to everybody, oh, no, you're not feeling well, go home. I have never been involved in a company that's been able to get out of infancy and create real value without management being all over everyone all the fucking time and creating an atmosphere of what I'll call productive chaos. And then some people. Productive chaos. That's nice, too. And then some people obviously emerge and become managers themselves. But I, startups, if you're looking for quality of life or balance and it's not aspirational, do not go to a startup.

And I meet it, quite frankly, I read it and thought, oh, I would invest in that company. And it's not aspirational, but folks, and maybe other people have, I have never worked in a company that's created billions of dollars in value from zero without, quite frankly, the sausage getting made. It is a tough, intense environment. Go ahead. We had them on the stage at Code Commerce, as you know. And, you know, they sort of have this happy, shiny look. Yep. Anyway, they sort of try to do this, hey, we have all these values. It's sort of like Google pushing this don't be evil line. You think they're hypocrites.

And then really presiding over really egregious sexual harassment, egregious treatment of women, you know, and then not doing anything about it. And so, or whatever they do, whatever they do. I mean, I just, you know, one of the things about the, I'll go to the Googles during the fail, is that this investigation continues at Google over what happened, a number of executives there and how they handled a number of executives badly, it looks like. And I think there's no, like, they sort of get out of it because, you know, they get to to leave with this sort of kudos, the founders are leaving and this and that. But there's more there. Like you know what I mean?

The timing is not – it's not coincidental for example. And so what I do think – I agree with you that there's a startups ain't pretty. Like startups ain't pretty kind of thing. But it is irritating to sort of push this idea of your specialness and how much you care about your employees. Just say, like, this is going to be a hard place to be. It's inconsistent. That's their point.

Jeff Bezos never pretended it was a rose garden over there. Neither did Microsoft, really. That's a good point. So I just don't like when they do this, like, happy, shiny people thing, the way Google has done it. And it's not so happy. It's not so shiny. And that's my irritation, and that's where the fail is. I agree with you, though, on the thing.

That said, you can push employees way too hard and be insanely non-professional. I agree. And also, there is something to be said just in terms of competitive advantage. If you can provide people who have different needs and aren't maybe young and can't focus 110% of their time at work, if you can create an environment have different needs and aren't maybe young and have, can't focus 110% of the time at work, if you can create an environment where you do give certain people more flexibility, and quite frankly, they probably aren't gonna make as much, but I think if you do offer those opportunities,

you end up with a better company. But I mean, I just look back on every startup, and maybe I'm a bad manager. I look back on every startup I've been on that worked, and oh my gosh, it was full body contact. It was ugly. Balance wasn't a word we ever used. Yep.

I used to work late at night at the Washington Post and places like that. I don't recall it being, like, there is an interesting mentality of people now being able to speak out on Slack or wherever they can talk out or Twitter or wherever, where they, like, the complaints are, I hate to, like, differentiate. There are legitimate complaints. Yeah. And there are other ones, especially around sexual harassment and behavioral issues and abuse. And then there's, oh, just suck it up. You know what I mean?

Like, that kind of thing. It takes this long to do this. And so it's a really, in this environment, I think you cannot be hypocritical saying one thing on one hand and behaving a different way. You just say, you know what? Just like you're saying, it ain't pretty. The sausage, it ain't pretty. And so I don't think it was a very good look for them and especially because it's these two women running it and everything else. It's not a – it wasn't a good look.

And they're under enormous pressure because everyone's trying to copy their business. Well, and they have to support a tech valuation on a luggage company. It's just, I think the most recent valuation is 1.4 billion, which is greater than what Tumi was. I mean, this is a company that's got to, again, pull off this kind of yoga babble illusion

that it's a tech company, not a company that shapes plastic into a thing you put your toiletries in. So they found an area of the market that wasn't taken advantage of. Oh, it's a great product. And by the way, if you're ever in an airport with a bunch of cool-looking aspirational people, half those suitcases are away. It's just whether or not—I want to be clear. I love the company. I just don't love the valuation. I just think the valuation's gotten ahead of itself. Well, let me give full disclosure, Away is advertising with us this week, spending some

of that money. But it's really, it's an interesting, they have found an issue in the marketplace at the same time. This is the kind of thing they're going to have to accept. And at the same time, employees, it's a really,it's sort of—it's typical of so many Silicon Valley companies in terms of how they behave. And it's a really—it's a fascinating time. Anyway, Scott, predictions? I don't have one this week, Kara. I'm going to predict that you're going to be impossible now with all these wins. I can't believe—I'm still—I still can't believe you beat the Daily and Joe Rogan.

I did. And I didn't use weed, and I don't have that smooth jazz Daily and Joe Rogan. I did. And I didn't use weed, and I don't have that smooth jazz voice, as I said in my tweet. Oh, my God. Congratulations. I mean this sincerely. Congratulations. That's a nice moment for you. Thank you.

That's really a nice moment for you. I'm already focused on the Pulitzer, my friend. I shouldn't even say that because you're not supposed to. Now I won't get one because they're very much snottier than these five jazz people. That is super impressive. Anything, think about it. We're in the only ad-supported medium that's growing. You're literally the person of the year in a medium.

In a medium. Right. But you're done. Ring the bell. Peace out. Drop the mic. Speaking of which, I have a great interview today with Neil Katyal, who is a Supreme Court litigator, solicitor, and he used to be solicitor general, I think, about the impeachment. And he also does a lot of tech law.

So it was really – I just want to say I'm going to continue to do – someone was, oddly enough, saying, Cara, get in your lane. Like, stay away from politics. What is your lane? That's what I want to know. Oh, my God. I was so furious. Your lane is a fucking 405. Your lane is a San Andreas fault. What is your lane? That's what I want to know. Oh, my God. I was so furious. Your lane is the fucking 405. Your lane is a San Andreas fault.

Define your lane. I hate when men say that. It's only men that say that to me, by the way. Stay in your lane. I was like, you know what? Tech affects everything. Uno. Dos.

I'm going to interview anyone the fuck I want. Here comes the Spanish. Here comes the Spanish. Hola. Here it comes. Me llamo Cara. Oh. Speaking of which,

it was the funniest joke. Go to the biblioteca, Cara, and collect your award. We're going to close soon, but listen, I went to see Knives Out and the funniest part

was that discussion of immigration that Don Johnson had with the actress. I don't know her name. I forget her name. Merit Delmar. Alma Delmar.

Are you from Paraguay? Are you from Ecuador? Like, it was like, Knives Out was brilliant. Brilliant. Cute movie. Alma Delmar. Are you from Paraguay? Are you from Ecuador? Like, it was, like, Knives Out was brilliant. Brilliant. Cute movie. Scott? Really nice movie. Yeah.

I can't believe you gave me a movie recommendation that I took up on. Do you like it? It's a cute movie, isn't it? Yeah. I watched Deadpool 2 with my son. It was just me and my son this weekend. It was really nice. Oh, Deadpool 2 is great.

Brian Reynolds. Yeah, it's hilarious. It's hilarious. But I'm saying, that was a great movie. I'm thrilled that it's doing so well. I'm thrilled that it's doing so well. I'm thrilled that it's doing so well because it's a smart movie. It was a complex movie. It was a movie like they used to be.

Good for the whole family. 97% on Rotten Tomatoes. It's really good. We recommend it very much. And it's also super funny. It's super. The whole thing is a wonderful movie. It's hard to follow, which in a good way.

I mean, it's good. It's interesting to follow. It's hard to follow, which in a good way. I mean, it's good. It's interesting to follow. Anyway, I really appreciate it. But that one, the whole scene around her, the woman who's the nurse, it's just – with Don Johnson was very funny. Yeah, that's wonderful. Anyway, it was very funny. Scott, it's time for us to go. We're going to be back on Friday for a week's wrap-up.

We still have more to talk about and more kudos, I say, for me mostly, but you too. I was literally in that moment. I literally was registering an emotion. I'm like, well, I actually think I care about Kara because I'm actually proud of you. And then you just spoiled it. I love that. I'm trying to do it. Kudos to me.

That's it. Yes, kudos to you. We are thought leaders. We're going to get t-shirts. Rebecca Sinanis and Erica Anderson. We're going to get t-shirts. Rebecca Sinanis and Erica Anderson. We're going to have thought leader t-shirts. TL, we're the TL. We are thought leaders.

God, I just, thought leadership. Everyone loves me for my brain. It fucking sucks. All right. Sexiest podcaster. I will give you that award. I will give you that award. But I'm lying.

My brain can't wear high heels and date Brad Pitt. What is going on here? In any Pitt. What is going on here? In any case. What is going on here? Podcaster of the Year, Kara Swisher, 2019. Yes, that is my podcast.

All right, we got to go. All right. It's time for us to go. We'll be back Friday for a week wrap-up. In the meantime, we'd love your feedback. Tell us what you think

by tweeting to us at hashtag pivotpodcast or email us questions at pivot at voxmedia.com. Today's show was produced by Rebecca Sinanis. Eric Anderson is Pivot's executive producer

and thought leader. Rebecca, by the way, is best producer of the year. Thanks also to Rebecca Castro and Drew Burrows. Make sure you subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts. And if you're an Android user,

check us out on Spotify or frankly, wherever you listen to podcasts. If you liked our show, please recommend it to a friend. Thanks for listening to Pivot from Vox Media. We'll be back next week

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