Pivot - AI Blunders, The GOP Cries Censorship, and Adam Neumann’s Comeback

Episode Date: February 10, 2023

Kara and Scott discuss the latest changes at Disney, including layoffs, and the expensive mistake made by Google's chatbot. Also in the mix: Adam Neumann is back, and has invented apartments! Plus, how did that Republicans hearing with the former Twitter execs go? The Dawg and Jungle Cat have thoughts. Send us your questions! Call 855-51-PIVOT or go to nymag.com/pivot. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Just go to Indeed.com slash podcast right now and say you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? You need Indeed. Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.

And I'm Kara Swisher. And I'm the Fifth Dimension. Oh, my God. Huh? So, Scott, explain why we're playing the song Up, Up and Away by Fifth Dimension. Because I was sharing a moment from my childhood with this great song, and I incorrectly said it was from the Tijuana Brass. And I went down a rabbit hole. I mainly pulled up and I got fascinated with it.

And their lead singer, Florence LaRue, is like crazy fucking hot. Not that that means anything. I've got a lot of Fifth Dimension on my musical thing. The Age of Aquarius they did? Yes, The Age of Aquarius. Or Inside Aquarius. They had like five top-selling albums. Yeah, they did. Yes, The Age of Aquarius. Or Inside Aquarius. They had like five top-selling albums. Yeah, they did.

They did. Anyways. It's a nice sandwich. Set the record straight. All right. Thank you. And we got to hear some lovely music together. That was nice.

And by the way, we were together this morning on CNN Morning Show. Yeah. Wasn't that nice? There we go. What were we talking about? Poppy and Dawn. They couldn't say pussy-ass bitched on the show, but we- They did say it. They played it. Oh, they played pussy- Dawn. They couldn't say pussy ass bitched on the show, but we. They did say it.

They played it. Oh, they played pussy ass. They didn't say it. I didn't know if we could say it, right? Did you wonder? No, here's the thing. You can say it. I cannot.

You can. Well, that's fair. I cannot. But I'm saying I think they bleep it, right? Wouldn't they bleep it? Or maybe not. I have no idea. Well, you know, it was in Congress, so we should be able to say.

I barely remember. I did chocolate mushrooms last night and the hit time was 8 a.m. I don't remember anything. Congress spent our taxpayers' dollars blowing the top off Chrissy Teigen's pussy ass bitch. That was her tweet, too. Oh, my God. And Donald got defended. That guy, the misogynist, sexist, weirdo, whatever.

All those things. Whatever. Anyway, we'll talk about that in a minute. By the way, let me just say, speaking of pussy-ass bitch in that area, my mother-in-law did not want us to characterize her gift, which I love, as a penis candle. It's a dick candle. Well, no. A dandle. Okay, let's call it a dandle.

A dandle. Okay, I just want to move along from that. But nonetheless, they're lovely. You can get them at MoMA. And Scott declined my kind offer to give him one. Anyway. I like it when candles make me feel insignificant. Yeah, yeah.

But you know, penis candle should be the name of our next podcast. That's what I said. What do you think? Anyways. Okay, let's move on. You did pick a good time to leave Twitter. I hope you did. On Wednesday, Twitter experienced a wave of technical issues. It left many users unable to tweet, follow, or send DMs.

It's not clear what caused the issue, but errors have Twitter CEO Elon Musk spooked. Well, if you fire a lot of people and then you try to put in new things, I think he was putting in a new – whenever you do anything big change, like we said, you could have problems. He reportedly directed staffers to focus on site stability ahead of the Super Bowl Sunday because he sold some ads. Historically, it's highest grossing revenue day of the year. I suspect it's not going to be one of his highest revenue grossing of history. We've got a lot more Twitter talk about later in the show, but today we'll zero in on big tech's week in Washington and the threats from all sides. Also, Adam Newman lays out his plans for his latest venture and Scott Galloway can't wait to invest. And we'll take a listener question from a small business owner with a bone to pick.

But did you get off Twitter? Oh, no. I'm back. I'm getting really good, though. I wrote, I'd love to see what I put out tomorrow. I'm like, I choose crazy. Oh, right. That's true.

From normal. That's Sarah Huckabee Sanders. Did you see Sarah Huckabee's response? That was crazy. Speaking of crazy. Oh, my gosh. The dividing line in America is no longer between right or left. The choice is between normal or crazy.

You got to give her kudos. It's not that easy to be that angry and that boring at the same time. Yes, she was. She was. I was fine with the thyroid cancer thing, which I feel terrible for her to have. But then she started off on that story. And I was like, landed, Sarah, what is going on? And then she went off onto some, she didn't define anything. Did you know that? She didn't say what CRT was. So half of America was like, what? Yeah, she covered a lot. She did a tour of the like,

angry, woke kind of. And it's interesting, though, that that speech is kind of the kiss of death. I mean, Bobby Jindal. Yeah. Marco Rubio, though, Senator Rubio still plays. Yeah, he's sweated, right? He drank water or whatever. But they try to find someone. It's almost like it's a little bit. It's a little bit cursed.

It's a great opportunity. But oh, well, I don't know. Whatever. It was a terrible speech, Sarah. And you get you get busy with the Latinx thing over in Arkansas. I'm sure it's your most major issue of your citizens. Anyway, the AI race continues, but competitors are stumbling out of the gate. Alphabet shares fell 7% following a demo of Google's new AI chatbot, BARD. In a $100 billion blunder, the company released a promotional video where BARD gives the wrong answer to a

question about the James Webb telescope. We talked about this, the wrong answer. You said you rely on it. I said, wrong answer. What do you think? They lost a lot of money for it. They look like idiots. Yeah, it does feel as if, regardless of whether or not, I was on Ian Bremmer this morning on PBS, because I'm fancy. I'm fancy. But in the short term, regardless of whether AI lives, the performance lives up to the promise, it does feel like it's going to create a transition or reallocation of about half a trillion dollars in market cap from Google to Microsoft. Maybe. Well, it's kind of already happening. Temporarily. Yeah, temporarily. We'll see who. temporarily. We'll see who. Microsoft's above $2 trillion. I think if and when they release something, an actual demo of being powered by AI, I think that's going to cause a lot of excitement.

But yeah, it's sort of like there's momentum definitely has its own momentum, and they're playing catch up. And that was very much a self-inflicted commercial with the wrong answer. Weird. And then Microsoft, of course, unveiled its AI updates to Bing and Microsoft Edge, and reporters found incorrect answers there, too. The chatbot told one reporter that Tom Hanks was behind Watergate. I think he was in a movie about Watergate. You mean he wasn't? I don't know. Not that nice, man.

Did you see Bridge of Spies? Yes, I did with Tom Hanks. That was great. He's great. Steven Spielberg, also the fabulman. He is seldom in a movie that is bad. Micro says the Bing's chatbot will supply more detailed answers. The Money Pit? Oh, no,man. He's seldom in a movie that is bad. Microsoft says the Bing's chatbot will supply more detailed answers. The Money Pit?

Oh, no, no. He's been in a lot of movies. Oh, the Money Pit. You're right. That's right. Okay, but not bad. Not bad. But Microsoft says Bing's chatbot will supply more detailed answers to search into. It's just better search. Turner and Hooch. Okay. Why don't you become a chatbot? You just all of a sudden yell, Turner and Hooch.

I get it wrong a lot. Money Pit. I get it wrong a lot. Those are, you of a sudden yell, I get it wrong a lot. I get it wrong a lot. Those are, you do, you do. I get it wrong a lot. The 12th dimension. Anyway, they'll be able to provide itineraries for trips. I don't, okay, sure. Microsoft also seems to be putting safeguards on its bot.

A reporter at Insider asked the bot to write a cover letter and it responded, that would be unethical and unfair to other applicants. Whatever. We're in the early stages of this thing. We'll see. We'll see. We'll see.

Yeah, who knows. The original internet was pretty wrong a lot in any case. But there was. You do know what one of the first early internet sites was? Do you know? With a video? I give up. Something you were deeply involved in or covered or started. I did cover

it. It was a picture of, it was a video of a coffee maker at where they were doing a lot of these early internet stuff at a university. And you watch the coffee brew. That was what it was. That's a great story. I have more of these in your book. Do you know what? Guess what? I have a whole section on you. Do you? Oh, yes. Really? You're in it.

I like that. Thanks. Yeah, it's profane. Anyway, there's a Walt section and a you section. They contrast really nicely. Which is bigger? Probably Walt.

Who has a bigger dick candle? No, I'm having lunch with Walt this weekend. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah. We're going to go over some things. And then you and I will go over some things. I want to be factually correct, unlike these chatbots.

Anyway, more layoff news. Walt Disney will cut 7,000 jobs and over $5 billion in spending and reorganize the company. The new structure will rearrange the company into three divisions, entertainment, ESPN, and theme parks. He's really, like, tightening it up. The monetary cuts will include $3 billion from movies and TV. Bob Iger clarified the company does not intend to spin off ESPN, but it's ready to be spun off if he wants to. So Scott, I mean, also one of the benefits of this is the proxy fight with Nelson Peltz is now over, according to all kinds of, he has announced that he is okay. He's ending the proxy fight. He's very happy with the restructuring. Obviously, the stock has gone up. He has a billion dollars worth

of stock. That's a lot of stock. You have to give respect to that. He had a website called Restore the Magic, and he liked what he saw from Bob Iger. Yeah, I would bet it was a little bit different than that, and that is I would bet Bob called him and said, Nelson, you know, what do you want to do here? And he said, well, X, Y, and Z. And he said, Nelson, well, this is what we're going to do. And gave Nelson the impression that this stuff was his idea and said, Nelson, if we do these things and I announce them in 48 hours, would you stop the proxy fight? It's a distraction. And he agreed.

Yeah. So I would bet they coordinated on this. He went on Jim Cramer, who's been hand in glove with him on this thing, it feels like. Then he also said he's open to becoming friends again with Iger. I agree. I'll pick up lunch or breakfast again next time, I promise. I didn't realize until I just watched this. Now it's his birthday.

I might even send him a gift. I mean, I just can't even. Whatever. Okay, fine. Yeah, see you on the golf course. Yeah might even send him a gift. I mean, I just can't even. Whatever. Okay, fine. Yeah, see you on the golf course. Yeah, whatever. Oh, God, I guess this is like- It's a win for all of them. It's a win for Nelson. It's a win for Bob. It's a win for shareholders. Exactly. I'm glad he pressed him. I'm glad he did it. He's, as usual,

proving that he's quite good at being the CEO rather than a retiree. Yeah, this is definitely the year of efficiency, so to speak. The market like this. The year of efficiency. We should have a theme song for that, but go ahead. There you go. And cutting staff, reorganizing. It's something I hadn't thought of, and it makes a lot of sense. I guess Comcast owns a third of Hulu, and they own two thirds, and everyone pelts in the markets and saying, okay, they have to buy it, to buy the rest. Or sell it. Yeah. I actually think they're going to sell it now.

Yeah. Help pay down the balance sheet. Also, I'm just not entirely sure, like, what do you make of Hulu? Like, what is... I use, I watch it. I watch it. It's sort of the one I forget about, and I'm like, oh, what's on Hulu at the last... The only reason I use it, and I do use it, but I don't have to make any money off of it. It's for live TV. Occasionally I want to watch the State of the Union or something.

There's some, actually some very expensive sport. My son signed up for a sports package. So I tell him it was like $9,000 a month, some basketball things we could watch basketball in. Yeah. And they were sort of a pioneer in advertising on streaming. But I think, I think actually now I'm- Fold it in.

They cut costs. They have so Fold it in. They cut costs. They have so many amazing businesses. They cut costs. Disney Plus has a very strong positioning and signal around what it stands for. It does. Hulu is kind of like the handmaid's tale. I feel like Hulu struggles for an identity. Yeah, I think we don't need this many.

I just don't. It's one of those. It's like, you know, one of those friends you call at the last minute when all the other friends aren't busy. You're like, oh, Hulu. And every now and then there's some very good things on there. It's like, you know, one of those friends you call at the last minute when all the other friends aren't busy. You're like, oh, Hulu. And every now and then there's some very good things on there. It's like you and me. I was waiting for that.

No, you and I had a lovely dinner last week with Jihan and my son and my friend. And it was good. By the way, Jihan calls, George Hahn calls Bob Iger a dilf, just so you know. Dilf, yeah. I've heard that before. I have to agree. Anyway, Salesforce is also dealing with another activist investor. It's fifth, Dan Loeb's third point.

He's a tough customer. He's probably taken an unknown size. He had taken a stake in Disney and pushed his spinoff ESPN unsuccessfully. But he's in there. There's all of them. The whole party is in Salesforce, only one or two in Disney. But this is interesting. Them sort of coalesce. They're trying to make some money, these hedge funds. I would have picked, if I were going to come in

behind someone, I would have picked Disney. I think Disney's the better buy right now. But yeah, Salesforce has gotten a lot of attention. Yeah, Elliott's in there. There's another one I forget. They're all in there, all the names, which is interesting. What do you – they get behind – someone told me, I was asking why they got in there. They said they get behind each other and they – you know, Loeb wants Peltz to make the trouble to get the – they only want the stock up, right, essentially. So they tend to get in behind and draft off the others.

They only want the stock up, right, essentially. So they tend to get in behind and draft off the others. I think that's a little bit of a recent phenomenon in that sense that there aren't that many big targets where these guys – these guys have got so much capital that there aren't that many opportunities to put a billion, $2 billion to work in a great company that's kind of, I don't want to say on sale, but trading down. And so they read these decks and they're like, you know, they look at it and go, well, what Nelson's saying is making sense. He's doing all the hard work. I'll just come in with some capital. And hope there's some raise in the price. Right. And then they get to exit more easily and save face. They don't, you know, they don't, they're not accused of being short term if they sell after a few months if the stock pops or whatever.

So it's sort of a – Yeah, someone was going through the Disney thing with Loeb. I guess Peltz got in around 100 and he got in a little higher, 120. So he's got to stick around to get this stock up. It did pop with this Bob Iger changes. Yeah. So it's interesting. It seems kind of old school to be doing this, not really investing

in things. But I guess this is what we do. This is going to be the year of the activists. There's just a ton of big... You're probably going to see... I mean, we already see one activist at Google. It was down. You're probably going to see another one pile into Google behind, I think it's TCI. There's just too much... For the first time, stocks are not constantly pinging all-time highs. Yeah. And also, the strategy here that just appears to be the gift that keeps on giving is come into a company and say, figure out what 10% or 15% of your workforce you're going to lay off. And they're all doing it. The markets love it.

Yeah. And they don't even have to do anything that complicated or that difficult other than, quote unquote, efficiency. Yeah, it'll be interesting. I keep saying we should start an activist firm, Scott. You do keep saying that. We'd be so good. We'd be so irritating. We'd be so, we just like, we'd be irritating. Trust me on this. It's hard work. It's overrated. I know, but we're professionally irritating already. Why don't we make some dough? I'll give you that. We got that down. All right. Speaking of which, let's get to our first big story. Republicans finally got through to Twitter customer service. In a Republican-led hearing

this week, House members grilled former Twitter executives about alleged censorship and the company's handling of the Hunter Biden laptop story. Former execs, including Yoel Roth and Vijay Gade, painfully explained Twitter's decision-making process to House members, including, in a rate, Marjorie Taylor Greene. But here's an exchange between Republican House member Byron Donalds and Yoel Roth, after Roth explained that he didn't have a contact with anyone from the Biden team. But the email is very clear. More to review from Biden team. The response three hours later at the bottom handled these. What does handled these mean?

My understanding is that these tweets contained non-consensual nude photos of Hunter Biden and they were removed by the company. Hold on real quick, Mr. Roth. How could you know so much about the content of these tweets? I mean, as far as I'm concerned, these are just web addresses. I don't know what's in these tweets. You have these things committed to memory that you know the content, but you don't know who you talk to at the Biden team? Sir, I didn't meet with the Biden team.

non-consensual, but the hearing produced one shocking example of U.S. government trying to censor Twitter. Guess who it was? President Trump's White House called the company to remove the tweet by Chrissy Teigen that called Trump, quote, a pussy ass bitch. This is such a waste of taxpayer money. And they looked idiotic because it turns out it was a Trump administration who had the most meddlesomeness. None of this is censorship and none of this is a conspiracy theory. Well, it just goes from, it's like dumb and this literally is dumb and dumber. Yeah. It's the first premise that Twitter has an obligation to free speech is just dumb. CNN or Fox, if they don't bring on AOC or Ted Cruz to comment on something, are they censoring?

Correct. They get to censor. That's called a media company. It's not a censoring. Take the word out. It has nothing to do with First Amendment. It has nothing to do with First Amendment. They try and call balls and strikes.

They get it wrong all the time. They got it wrong on the Hunter Biden thing. They probably shouldn't have suppressed the story in the New York Post. And they changed it pretty quickly. But they also got it wrong over letting a president continue to organize an insurrection on their platform. That's correct. And the only assertion here that was troubling and worth digging on was did agencies or individuals from the federal government put pressure on them to produce or delete certain content? And what we found is that there was no there there.

The FBI did not put pressure on Twitter. There's no evidence that the Biden administration put evidence or pressure on Twitter to pull this story down. What we did find out is that, in fact, the federal government, specifically the person who is the commander in chief, was putting pressure on Twitter. They look like idiots. To take down a tweet. And it's just the whole thing. I watched the whole thing. And I'm like, you know, head and hands. I'm like, you can imagine the CCP and China going like, just send every balloon we have over there. They're idiots. I mean, they just they're dumb. They're dumb and they make assertions that aren't true. And then the only one who was at risk here

was Yoel Roth, who got death threats. And they started it because they made up stuff there. I'm sorry, this this group of Republican House members are liars, actual liars about things. And they just make it up. Twitter can decide what can live online or not. It's not a public square. It's a private company. They can do what they want. They made a lot of mistakes on both sides, by the way, but mostly in being acquiescent to the Trump administration so they didn't get in trouble. It was so clear what was going on here is these very liberal people were worried about seeming too liberal. And so they bent over backwards to let a sitting president just cause an insurrection. That's pretty much it.

So I thought the low moment, I mean, the real low moment was Representative Clay Higgins said your lawyers know essentially that you could be arrested for interfering with election. Okay. So I immediately look up, okay, who is Clay Higgins? Clay Higgins did not graduate from college, joined the police force where he resigned from the police force under investigation that he assaulted a suspect while handcuffed and went on to be the manager of a car dealership. Nothing wrong with that. There's dignity in any work. But this is an individual that is telling the general counsel or former general counsel of Twitter that they're going to be arrested. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that Mr. Representative Higgins doesn't know what the fuck he's talking

about. Shut the fuck up is what I keep thinking. And it's just, it's, it just, I'm like, okay, here's a guy who's totally unqualified and saying arrests are coming to people, to people who agree to testify on our behalf. And then also, what do they want from the, everyone there has been fired. What do they want from those people? Yeah, actually, Yoel wasn't fired. Yoel left, right? Yoel left because he couldn't deal with it. Oh, I thought he was fired.

No, no, no, no. He left. He left. I mean, Vijay Gade certainly was by Elon, but Elon kept – remember, Yoel stayed and tried his best. He's a terrific guy. He doesn't deserve all this crap that he got. But let me just say, the clearest explanation of the hearing came from another House member, Democrat Maxwell Frost. Here's what he says. One of the youngest. I think he is the youngest member of Congress. But go ahead.

I've been sitting here for over two hours and I'm still not really seeing the point of this hearing. Is it to solve the problems of the American people, what people are struggling with? No, we get it. My Republican colleagues wish that the Hunter Biden story would have helped them win the 2020 election. And that didn't happen. And so they're angry about it. And that's the point of this hearing. Yep, that's exactly the point of this. We need more youth. Yep, we need more youth. Congress gets older every day. He said what the fuck politely, right? WTA. We need, we need more individuals who look at the world and can represent. You know, Kara, the average age of an American is 38. The average age of Congress is 64.

That means for every 40-year-old Congress person, we have someone who's 88. Or crazy. I mean, the Marjorie Taylor Greene stuff. I mean, honestly, honey. Camilla Soprano. Come on. You got to love the outfit. You got to love the outfit.

I actually did like the outfit. But whatever she wants to wear, knock yourself out. But, ugh, shut up. Just shut up about it. This is like such a, this is, and it persists online. Even after today, people are like, oh, no, it really happened. I'm like, no, it didn't. Like, go find another.

Go investigate Sasquatch. You know what I mean? Where he, like, we still haven't found Sasquatch. So go for that one. Yeah, but they weren't planning this. Biden's best moment at the State of the Union. I mean, the reason why we would turn into these things is occasionally you're looking for an unscripted moment that reveals something. He was really good on his feet. He was. Anybody who doubts it, contact my office. I'll give you a copy. I'll give you a copy of the proposal. That means Congress doesn't vote. Well, I'm glad to see you. I tell you,

I enjoy conversion. He drove them in. He drew them in perfectly. Well, but not only that, he came across as gracious and didn't flinch. Not sleepy. Was not scared. Didn't get angry. Just said, okay, so we can all agree that Social Security and Medicare. He was very good on his feet. And it's really important for him because he would be a lock on renomination right now if it wasn't for one thing. And that is what I would argue are really credible concerns about his age. It seemed pretty lively to me.

Well, that's my point. I think he showed what I'll call real, I don't know what the term is, neuroplasticity or agility, but the ability to kind of respond like that in real time. Can't do that if you're losing it. You can't. Yeah, that's right. You know what I think he should do? Tell me what you think of this. If someone called me and said, what would your advice be to the president around the state of Can't do that if you're losing it. You can't. Yeah, that's right. You know what I think you should do? Tell me what you think of this. If someone called me and said, what would your advice be to the president around State of the Union? I think you should pull an FDR and say, I just want to say thank you for your grace and your patience. As many of you know, I suffered with a stutter for much of my life, and it's reappearing as I get older.

with a stutter for much of my life. And it's reappearing as I get older. And so I hope you know that I have the words and I have the ideas. Sometimes I just can't get them out as clearly as I would hope. I think he should say that. He did pretty well. I don't think he's some, they all stumble.

Are you kidding? They all stumble. It's just, you don't notice it. No, but he does have a speech impediment. Yeah, sure, he does. But he's had that forever. If you go way back and looking in, he took a different approach on the State of the Union, the correct one,

speaking about the dangers that social media poses to children. Let's listen. We must finally hold social media companies accountable for experimenting or doing running children for profit. It's time to pass bipartisan legislation to stop big tech from collecting personal data on our kids and teenagers online, ban targeted advertising to children, and impose stricter limits on the personal data that companies collect on all of us. He widened it at the end and it targeted. Why don't we just age-gate it? Yes, I think this is among the things.

I like this stuff, but occasionally I'd like to see actual, I am proposing a banning of TikTok or I am, whatever it is. I think that was a moment where he should have said, I'm going to, you know, present legislation or whatever it is. Well, yeah, but you can't ban TikTok. Facebook collects just as much data. He should have all of them. Of course they can ban TikTok. Why not? I know, but that's not the problem.

The problem is Facebook. The problem is Instagram. The problem is all of them. Your point all along, and it's the right one, is we need some sort of systemic approach to privacy. Yes, that's correct. I get it, across all of them. TikTok is a national security threat. As much as I hate the people at Meta, they are Americans, and I don't think they wake up and think, how do I undermine American democracy? No, how do I make money off of it and undermine American democracy?

Right. And even if it costs, even if it hurts the Commonwealth, but that's not their objective. Yeah. They're, you know, they're sociopathic, but they're not psychopathic in the sense that they're not trying to hurt America. They're just ignoring the hurt to America. The CCP, vis-a-vis whatever entities they control, i.e. every Chinese company, wants to hurt America. So I think the two, I think one's more about national security and others about antitrust and mental health and all that stuff. But I absolutely think he should have said, I want to ban TikTok and also I want to age-gate social media. The other things he did was talk a lot about big tech's power and the tax system.

Let's listen to that. The tax system is not fair. But now because of the law I signed, billion dollar companies have to pay a minimum of 15 percent. God love them. I propose we quadruple the tax on corporate stock buybacks and encourage long, long term investments. But Big Pharma has been unfairly charging people hundreds of dollars. We capped the cost of insulin at $35 a month for seniors on Medicaid. So a lot about antitrust, this idea of stopping online platforms from preferencing their own products. There's a lot in there.

Even though Bill Clinton and Barack Obama are largely pro-corporate power. He's going more populist. And someone wrote a piece in The Wall Street Journal today, is Joe Biden Bernie Sanders in disguise kind of thing? Yeah, but I don't think the populist stuff is especially – I think immediately they go to this kind of rage, populist, conspiracy stuff on the right, and the left goes to this populist rage against the ghost in this machine that is corporate profits. And I don't think that's effective either. I think the gangster move from one of these politicians, and I've been thinking a lot about this, is we can bring taxes down as long as everybody pays them. And that is, if you were to say,

do away or have a unified rate similar to what Reagan did across personal or across current and long-term capital gains, there's no reason that sweat should be taxed at a higher rate than money. The money that money makes gets taxed at a lower rate than the money that workmates. Why? Because old people make their money through work, old people make their money through stocks and houses. That is ridiculous. It's nothing but a transfer of wealth from the young to the old and the poor to the rich. In addition, corporations should be taxed if they want to license their IP and engage in a double dutch sandwich to reduce for tax avoidance, if they want to do a reverse merger such that they can have their profits taxed in low domain, we've got to repatriate those taxes. I believe

if you were to tax corporations at their fair level, their actual income and profits that they get from this country at 30%, and then you were to tax anyone who makes over a million bucks a year 30%, I think the actual effect of tax rate across the rest of Americans would be somewhere around 15% or 18%. You could lower taxes. You just think everybody has to pay them. Everyone has to pay them. One of the others, I agree with you on all this. I think it's interesting. He's moving towards trying to attract back working class people from the Republican Party. That's what he's doing. It's very clear. And I think he can do it. I honestly think he can. He seems like he's pulling a little Sanders in, the attractive parts of Sanders and Warren.

He's pulling in the, you know, he's whacking back at them. He's being, you know, dark branded a little bit. Like, I think it's very effective. He also attacked something else with the Swifty fans, attacking all kinds of fees, overdraft fees, credit card fees, hotel resort fees. I just paid a hotel resort fee. It was ridiculous. I had cracked up when they mentioned that. Yeah.

I mean, I'm like, thank God, resort fees. Those fees can cost up to $90 a night at hotels that aren't even resorts. I mean, the Russian army, TikTok, teen depression, it's resort fees. Well, they're kind of usurious. I would agree with it. It is bad. The airline fees, concert fees, everything. I think it's the power of Taylor Swift.

They're fighting, of course, the Republicans are fighting to protect bank overdraft fees and things like that. So I like the fee attacks. I'm for it. It's definitely trying to get that. Popular. Yeah, occasionally you do look down at your hotel bill and it's like, nightly room rate, $300. Bill, $1,180. Exactly.

It's like, what? I was like, I didn't go in the pool. Like, if I go in the pool, you can- Yeah, I didn't use the resort. Didn't use the resort. I just walked through the lobby, essentially. Anyway, I think he did very well. And I think it's an interesting moment for the Democratic Party.

By the way, you can also hear me discuss the State of the Union, especially the Democratic Party. A couple of weeks ago, I had three Republican strategists. Now I had three Democratic strategists. And it's really good. It's an on with Kara Swisher. So we discussed it. They were surprising. Do you have another podcast?

Yes, I do. They were surprisingly upbeat on Biden. And these people had not been upbeat on Biden, but they were loving. The Democrats or the Republicans? Democrats were loving to Biden. These Democrats who have been very critical of Biden were very loving, including one who worked for Bernie Sanders. Anyway.

He's doing great. He's doing great right now. All right. Let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about Adam Neumann's new pitch, your favorite guy, and take a listener question about minimum wage. Fox Creative. This is advertiser content from Zelle.

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mechanism that's going to take some of the value and share it with the value creators. If we can actually create a better experience in the building, then the building performs better and makes a higher NOI. If the building makes a higher NOI, then we'll be able to raise more money and buy more buildings. If we buy more buildings, then we'll be able to run more buildings and have more users in those buildings. And those users are going to start using our financial services. have more users in those buildings. And those users are going to start using our financial services. Okay, that's not all. Newman goes on to describe some of the benefits of having tenants who feel like they're owners, except they're not. Adam, here's another clip, also edited. And then if we are able to take this value-creating mechanism and share with the residents a portion

of the value, it's going to make them feel ownership. If you're in your apartment building and you're a renter and your toilet gets clogged, you call the super. If you're in your own apartment and you bought it and you own it and your toilet gets clogged, you take the plunger. And it's the difference when feeling like you own something to just feeling like you're renting, from being transactional to actually being part of a community. Those comments were made in November last year at a conference hosted by Andreessen Horowitz, a big investor, A16Z, has invested $350 million in Newman's venture. I think this is nonsense. He invented apartments, rental apartments. This is really a big moment. I don't even understand what he's done. He's done this before with WeLive. But please, Scott, I'd like you to give me your thoughts.

Actually, I don't get the sharing in the economics. I mean, I get it conceptually, but I don't think it's going to work. I do think if you think about residential real estate and rental real estate, it's probably the biggest asset class that doesn't have great brands. I mean, can you name a brand in the apartment, industrial? There are millions of apartments, multi-trillion dollar asset costs. Yeah, turn them into like hotels is what you're saying, hotel brands. brands that have a reputation in the investment markets and they can raise property, whether it's Sam Zell's REITs or Office REITs. But there isn't really a single post-properties try to do this. A company in the Southeast tried to do it with apartments. But it makes sense that if you're a young person and you're mobile and you're getting moved around a lot. I'll give you an

example. I'm a member of something called Inspirato, which is basically residences and luxury vacation spots. Yes, the rich people holiday rental thing. Yes, got it. Thank you. But they do – it's really smart. They have the same little things. They have the same technology in every house. You only have to figure out once how to turn on Netflix.

They have the same type of refrigerator. They even have the same kind of decor. They have the same – they learn from you and they put the same food in the refrigerator. And it has a brand. There is no brand in rental. So I think that's actually, the problem with it is it's all about buying right, which means buying slowly. So these companies like the iBuying things, like Zillow, which basically closed their iBuying and now Opendoor, which is a total shit show going to zero in my view. Real estate is a slow local business. It's all about buying right.

But the idea of trying to brand a national series of apartments. So why buy the buildings? You know, I talked to Brian Chesky about this. He's like, that seems expensive to buy all these buildings and then maintain them. And he was, why not just put, you know, just have a company over it that does that business. In the management business. Yeah.

And he's like, the rest of it, I don't, he goes, there's not enough money in the world to do this. And then the problems are rife when you really start to wade in here. He was right away, was like, no, no, thank you. They'd come to them, I think on some level, but it feels like WeWork. He did this before. WeLive didn't work, as you remember. Do you remember WeLive? Yeah, I think, on some level. But it feels like WeWork. He did this before. WeLive didn't work, as you remember.

Do you remember WeLive? Yeah, but that was more like a cult. That was more like, hey, everybody, put on Nikes and drink Kool-Aid. In the same, yeah. But you could do it in a city. But it would take 10 years, and you'd have to do it smart and methodically. And he's not interested in any of that. Yeah.

He's definitely like a big thinker. He's very charismatic. Very. He can raise a ton of money. What about the investing part? Would you want them to invest for you? Do Tennessee landlords to invest for them? And why would you plunge your own toilet if you rented something?

The whole point of renting is you don't have to plunge your own. I thought it was that if the economics of the building were better, you got some back. I didn't know it was a financial services company. Yeah. That's where it all gets confusing and weird and a lot of jazz hands. But the thing about Adam is, the reason why tech investors love him is he's all about scaling really fast. But here's the problem. When you scale that fast and an asset class doesn't have network effects like renting desks or apartments.

Right, yep. Like iBuying. iBuying just overpaid. iBuying thought they could bring an algorithm to buying apartments in Nashville. And what it ends up is the best way to buy real estate is to really understand the color and the nuances of that local real estate and that thing you're buying and get a feel for what it's of thousands of apartments found out it's really hard to manage them. Some they got right. Some they got wrong. Real estate is a local business. And unfortunately, it has a certain friction to it and a slowness to it that just doesn't fit with his mentality around investing.

All right. So this idea of infinite growth and appreciation in real estate, that really has to happen. And it's so cyclical. Let me read your takedown of WeWork's S1. You said WeWork had no scale effects. Let's see if residential real estate is any better. You also wrote of WeWork, there is no flywheel effect. The ancillary businesses are stupid, just stupid. In his flow panel, Newman went out of his way to describe the company's services as a flywheel. He likes a flywheel. I remember, I mean, you're taking me back now, but I remember I was

in Nantucket at an Inspirata, and I got the draft of the S1 for the WeWork, and I started reading through this. I remember saying to my family, who was going to Nobadir to go surfing, I had a great day planned. I'm like, I can't go. I've got to read this. This thing's unbelievable. I got to read this. And I wrote that thing. And the rest is history, Kara. Now I'm here with you. But at one point, they were flying to Bombardier Global Expresses into a mountain every week. That's where so much happened to me. That's where I said that David Solomon or DJ Saul was a horrible DJ and a worse fiduciary for taking this garbage public. And then the charming guy he is, he texted me like, let's go to coffee.

I've had that call. Go ahead. But he's not, I would argue that Adam is just not interested in building sustainable value. He's interested in packaging something and being a salesman and trying to become, you know, king of the world. He lost me at plunger. Yeah, I just don't, I don't think you can. I think these guys are so attracted to how do you scale really fast. And the reality is the majority of real enduring wealth,

unfortunately, is built slowly because it involves a lot of thoughtful decision making, which is really hard to do. Yeah. And every VC in the world is looking for something. Interestingly, let me just say, as part of the investment, A16Z now owns stakes in many of Newman's buildings. If the flow is a flop, they retain the stake. Oh, God, I'm like, I can see the inside of this meeting with Adam. Let's talk about plungers. I know exactly who did it. And it's just, it's nonsense. I'm sorry. Would you invest? I feel like nonsense right away. But you don't, you seem a little bit more, oh, it could work, I guess, I suppose. Well, no. The reason why this is a much better investment is because they will buy, if they buy hard assets and rental properties, they might overpay. And if they use leverage, they could lose all of their equity investment. But the idea of bringing a brand to rental units makes a lot of sense. It's all about where you buy in the cycle. It's a good idea. The problem is VCs don't have the right time horizon for real estate investment. There's a group of families in New York, and all they do is buy these low-rise office buildings

and just buy them slowly. They don't lever up. And they're billionaires now, but they've done it over generations. And they're having trouble now too, right? They said it's cyclical. It's utterly cyclical. Well, cyclicality is a function, simply put, of how much leverage you have on your property. You can survive any cycle if you don't have too much leverage on it. Yeah, I get it. But this is what's going to happen. They'll go to banks and they'll say, we're Andreessen Horowitz. Lever us up like 20 to 1. Adam, it's all about scale. Scale in the real estate business, getting big fast means overpaying. There's just no getting around it. You can't be opportunistic. It's just like, get bigger, get bigger fast. And that's their whole, the entire VC model that

makes sense across processing power and network effects. Chat GPT, they need to get big fast. They need to spend billions of dollars to establish leadership position. That same mentality, that same speed is actually the opposite of how you build value in real estate. Real estate is a fantastic way to get rich slowly. Yeah, you know what?

It just reminds, this is like, I throw in a little WeWork, throw in a little WeLive, making it, you know, have kombucha on every floor, that kind of thing. That's what this is. It's like a dog's breakfast of all his former stuff. I'm sorry. Adam is incredibly charming. But I feel like this is, oi, oi, oi.

This is all I can think is, oi, oi, oi. I don't know. Would you invest? Would you invest in this? Oh, no. I wouldn't get near it. Not this? Oh, no, I wouldn't get near it. Not near it. Because why? I wouldn't get near it.

I can see what's going to happen here. He's going to create a lot of excitement. He's going to do a lot of ribbon cuttings. I don't think Adam Neumann's actually interested in doing the hard work of building value. I think he should run BizDev for an enormous company because Adam Neumann set a new record. And that is, we resent CEOs who make hundreds of millions of dollars, but usually they make hundreds of millions when the company and the shareholders have made billions. And so that's a real issue is what about CEO compensation.

And what's unique about Adam Neumann is he's the first person to get hundreds of millions of dollars in commissions for losing billions of dollars of other people's money. I've never seen that before. So he's an unbelievably charismatic guy. He's a great salesperson, but he's not interested in building anything slowly. So he finds VCs. He says, we can scale this fast. He's an ingenious salesperson. Why is Andreessen Horowitz in here?

For the life of me, I can't figure out how they would get anywhere near this. Right. I don't understand. They're in, they were in Clubhouse. Well, Twitter, Twitter you could almost make an argument for. They want to stay close to Elon. You know, maybe had some ideas about payments. Whatever. Throw two or three hundred million dollars in.

That's not a lot for their fund. I can kind of see that. Real estate, VCs in real estate, unless it's like what Brian said, who's going to forget more about real estate than we're going to know. If you put a thin layer of management, for example, hotels, owning the hotel business is a shitty business. Owning hotels is a shitty business. It's usually the third owner. The business that works and what they all do, none of these companies, the Four Seasons, Hilton, none of them are hotel companies. They're management companies. And they find some guy who's in a midlife crisis who wants to own the local Four Seasons. And they say, okay, you own it. We have certain standards you have to live up to.

And we take 8% of the top line. So, any year we make money. Yeah. And if it doesn't work, they go get another one. Like, you know, they just- Yeah. They go find the next billionaire that wants to say he owns the Four Seasons, you know, Austin. And they take a management fee, and it's an amazing business. That's what all of them do. Starwood. And it's a brand, you know, like the Four Seasons. I always call Four Seasons Holiday Inn for rich people.

You always know what you're getting. They do an amazing job. Yeah. The business of actually investing capital, it's very capital intensive. It's management intensive. And I own apartment rental units. It's management intensive. And I own apartment rental units.

The key to it is going to every property, looking around, doing your diligence, understanding traffic patterns, understanding how long does it take? What are the schools like there? What if we knock down this bathroom and put it here? And, you know, it's a local business. It's also, if you're patient and have some skills, it's probably the most consistent way in America to get wealthy. Yeah. Because it's so incredibly tax-advantaged. Yeah, 100%. 100%. Well, good luck, Adam. As usual, you'll do well. Well, you know that. And you look fantastic, by the way. He looks good. He's still married. I can't go over the fact that he's still married. Yeah, his hair's good. They have a very close relationship.

Yeah, they're really- They really tight. They're a unit. All right, Scott, let's pivot to a listener question. You've got, you've got, I can't believe I'm going to be a mailman. You've got mail. Hey, Karen, Scott. Scott, you recently and in the past have said you think a minimum wage should be raised to $25 an hour, regardless of the impact it has on small business. Being a small business owner myself,

and coming from a city with a low cost of living, I have two thoughts on this. First, I believe this would further entrench the large monopolies our government has allowed to thrive. Two, as a small business owner, I can tell you with 100% certainty that this would tank my business. That provides for my wife and my two kids. I've always believed a better solution to the ridiculous $7 minimum wage we currently have. It's federal law that mandates local governments set their own minimum wage, but require that they benchmark it to local cost of living instead of a one-size-fits-all approach that you've recommended. instead of a one-size-fits-all approach that you've recommended. What say you, Professor Galloway?

What say you, Professor Galloway? I shall leave this to you. It's a very good point by this very good listener. Simply put, he's right. There you go. It should be indexed to the cost of living of either a state or a region. It probably needs to be a region. I think there should be exceptions probably around companies with, say, fewer than, I don't know, 10 or 20 employees. I think there should be an exception for people under the age of 18.

I want my 15-year-old to get a job. It would be harder for him to get a job with a $25 minimum wage. If he's going to get a job at CVS or as a lifeguard, I think it'd be okay to have different rules for him. I think it'd be okay to say, all right, in Mississippi, $25 an hour would put a disproportionate number of businesses out of business, but let's index it to, okay, what is the poverty line? Let's go 20% above the poverty line. It's an algorithm that looks at the cost of living and wages, and we set a floor. But I think we're of like minds on this, and that is the floor needs to be, or the number needs to be a lot higher than what it is now. But he's absolutely right.

Should there be a floor? Should there be a floor and then do it based on the region? I don't know the difference. Well, so say it can't go below a certain amount. It said seven, right? Seven, whatever. Well, no, I think in some, I think minimum wage needs to be somewhere. I can't imagine it would be any lower

than 14 or 15 dollars. And also I do believe that there are just some small businesses that should go away. I think there's some big companies that are very dependent on cheap labor, that their stocks will get hit hard, and I think it would be worth it. There's no free lunch here. Yeah.

But his point is a good one, and that is if you live in a small town in Mississippi and you make 18 bucks an hour, and there's two of you, you can have an okay life. And so why would you do away with those businesses when you can get what you want on 18 bucks an hour? And that's what he's saying and he's correct. This is a good answer. And Scott, that was a good answer for you too. Do you think it's gonna happen? No, unfortunately this impacts disproportionately

young people, poor people, and their underrepresented in government. A good thing for a politician like Sleepy Joe could be a good topic. Look, if you wanted to, I think if you did the real analysis here, we don't talk about this a lot, but when you look at relationships, right? I think relationships are kind of the key component of the central component of what makes a healthy society and a rewarding, productive society. And the thing that really frays relationships is financial strength. I think if you look at obesity,

I think if you look at depression, I think if you look at deaths of despair, if you look at opioid addiction, it all comes, a lot of it reverse engineers the same place, and that is just massive shame and rage around financial strain. And so I would argue that if you were to substantially increase minimum wage, the amount of social services we end up paying in mental health, incarceration, medical care for people who are morbidly obese because they can't afford to eat well, kids who struggle developmentally because there's huge economic strain. And I think financial strain is the reason there's a lot of marital agita. Anyways, I think we get the money back. Yeah, great. I agree. I think the best investment we could, a pretty easy investment we could, not easy, a really thoughtful investment that would have huge ROI is leveling up the part of our society.

It's like college loans. It'll pay it back. It'll pay it back. You know what my son said, Louie said? I thought it was super smart. By the way, he loves seeing you. That's nice. He really did.

He mentioned it several times. He said, they should pay me to go to school. So it would help our economy in the end. They should pay all of us to go to school because it would be a better economy. There's a term for that. Yeah. The University of California. No, I get that.

From the 1950s to 1990s, they felt the same way. He's in this new economics class and he loves it. I made him take it. I said, you need to take it. And he's like, oh, I don't want it. And he loves it. You know, he's really enjoying it a lot because he's beginning, he's making him think about UBI and everything else. And I really, I thought that was, and she just said it off the top of his head.

It was interesting. Well, we do. The model a little bit is, it's interesting, PhD students get paid. Yes, they do. We find the best. And by the way, you want to talk about attracting the best and brightest from all over the world. Yeah. We find these incredible people and then they come and they learn, and we pay them.

They have responsibilities. They teach. They do some work. Right. But we pay them. Right, and one of the things, one of the colleges, I'm not going to say which I always got into,

they actually pay you. They pay for your, you don't pay for education, but later when you have a salary, you have to pay a certain percentage back to the school. It's kind of, it was so creative and interesting.

I didn't realize that. It's cool. Yeah, that's going to be legally challenged because they think that it's, to a certain extent, kind of indentured servitude. But people talked about that for a long time. It's interesting. I like all interesting ideas around all these things. So we should be more creative about the way people are paid and the benefits that society gets from them. Anyway, great question. If you've got a question of your own and you'd like answered, send it our way. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions.

As a Fizz member, you can look forward to free data, big savings on plans, and having your unused data roll over to the following month. Every month. At Fizz, you always get more for your money. Terms and conditions for our different programs and policies apply. Details at Fizz.ca. Okay, Scott, let's hear a prediction. And I think it should be that I was right about Joe Biden. But go ahead.

Move along. That's a prediction? Well, you know, I just want you to acknowledge it because you did tweet it. I mean, which part? You did post it. I was right. I was saying he's going to run and he's still in good shape. I don't know if he's going to run. We'll see. Nonetheless, you listen to my podcast about it. But in any case, he's doing a great job. Yeah, I agree with you. And by the way, I wrote, I'm constantly talking

about Twitter and posts, but I wrote one of my most popular things. I underestimated Joe Biden. Yeah, you did. And people like thousands of likes. Yeah, you did.

You don't listen to me. You don't listen to me. You have no respect for me. I listen to you. Sometimes I don't hear you, but I listen to you. Yeah, you have no respect, no respect for my intelligence

about these things. Huge props and respect. Anyways, you have no respect, no respect for my intelligence about these things. Huge props and respect. Anyways, you pussy-ass bitch. You pussy-ass bitch, I was right. Okay. Anyways. By the way, Trump is a pussy-ass bitch. I think that was quite accurate.

That's what we're talking about on CNN? That's the state of the nation right now? Accuracy. Thank you, Chrissy Teigen. Do you know John Legend's on the board of V nation right now. Accuracy. Thank you, Chrissy Teigen. Do you know John Legend's on the board of Vox? I, yeah, I remember when we presented to the board and I'm like, that guy looks like John Legend. And I'm like, it is John Legend.

That's right. Do you remember my joke? And they said, why do you think, they said, I couldn't wait for the show. I couldn't focus on any, you know, they asked me a series of questions. He's very handsome, man. I couldn't, he's very handsome.

I couldn't focus on anything they were saying because I had a joke lined up. And finally, they go, well, why do you think the SPAC market is so terrible? And I'm like, because all of you loves all of me. And there was just an uncomfortable pause and no one got the joke. I forgot. I thought that was great. They shouldn't have us into anything.

They shouldn't. They should not let us in. I've served on a lot of boards. And I'm walking to the Vox board and I feel like a seven-year-old about to throw up on himself. Hey, hey, what do we think about the money? Jay Penske, should we torture him? Jay, we're ready to torture you, too. Yeah.

Yeah, so what Kara's talking about is Vox raised $100 million, I think at a pre-F-400 or post-F-500 or pre-F-500 or post-F-600. Something like that. I don't know. But when you think about it, it's a real victory. I actually do know, but I'm not telling you, but go ahead. Well, aren't you important? Yes, I am. That is a real victory for Vox because if you look at a lot of publicly traded media companies right now, I mean, whether it's Gannett or BuzzFeed, I don't know, after the tripling of the stock. But Vox, in the private market story, the $100 million in this market,

it means, not that I know this, it means the business is actually fairly healthy. Yeah. Anyways, congratulations to Vox and Penske. And Jay Penske, get ready for us. We're so excited. I rented a Penske truck recently. I bet you did.

When I was moving Louie up to NYU. I can see you in a Penske truck. That fits. It was good. It worked. It was great. On your way to a photo shoot at Van That fits. It was good. It worked. It was great. On your way to a photo shoot at Vanity Fair. Anyways, okay, so.

You're so jealous. All right, go ahead. Prediction. My prediction, and we talked about it before. I used to think that Disney was going to buy the rest of Hulu. I think they're actually going to sell it. And I don't know if you saw in another prediction around a sale of streaming. and another prediction around a sale of streaming.

Warner Brothers Discovery has decided that they're not going to, they're backtracking on their initial strategy of creating one super bundle. With HBO Max and Discovery+, they're gonna keep Discovery Plus a separate entity. And I think what that means is they're keeping it distinct such that they can sell it. I think this acquisition,

Time Warner's just the acquisition that people love to overpay for. Yeah, they do. And I think that the numbers are obviously pretty weak so far. The stock has really not performed well since Discovery Plus and Zaslav bought it. And I think he sees the writing on the wall. He's going to have to pay off some debt and divest of some assets. He doesn't mind doing it either.

So him keeping Discovery Plus separate makes it cleaner for a sale. Anyway, so I think two predictions of the streaming market. I think Disney is actually going to sell Hulu, not acquire the rest of it. And Time Warner. To Comcast. Yeah, or to a third party, but it's likely going. I mean, they're playing chicken with each other. They're both all trying to posture that they want it or don't want it to try and get the best deal. But also, I think you're going to see Time Warner, or I'm sorry, Warner Brothers Discovery now divest Discovery Plus to somebody, maybe to Disney even, although will they have the money? Anyways.

Maybe to Disney even, although will they have the money? Anyways. You're right. I think you're 100% right. He's got a real problem there. And I'm going to do a tiny prediction. As Bob showed, you can really shake things up pretty quick if you've got the skills, the mad skills, which he has as being a CEO. My prediction is that the olds are really showing they still got some juice in the tank. The olds.

The olds. The olds. You know, Bob Iger, over 70, President Biden, doing the olds. Me being a fashion model now. I was wondering how we were going to work here. You're kind of an olds, but not quite yet. Not as olds as me. But I'm saying what Biden showed in that thing is political experience matters.

The ability, he's an old hand at this, and he handled it beautifully. He ran right over those loudmouth Republicans. And Iger did the same thing with Peltz. He just, like, handled them. He handled it. I appreciate the Golden Girls moment with this nation needs more young people in position. I agree. I'm saying that, but don't, like, count out the olds.

There's a lot of ages. I'm counting out. I just want to put him on an ice floe. No, you don't want to put Bob Iger on an ice floe. He'd look good. I'm joking. I'm joking. All right, I'm just saying.

I'm one of them. I'm getting old. I'm going to be 48 next year. No, you're not. And don't you think you are more productive than ever? You're not going to be 48, but okay, sure. Don't you think you're more productive older? I do.

Yeah, I'm more productive because greatness is in the agency of others. And I surround myself with really talented young people who every year get more fast followed technology. I'm just disappointed that, like, what I see, Cara, quite frankly, is I see young people who can't afford to have children. I see young people who have the deck stacked against them. And I see an America who's not investing in youth and creating a situation where young people feel so shitty

about the future and they can't afford to have kids. Yeah. So, and I think a lot of that is because we have old people in Congress. So social security is safe, but child tax credit goes away. And the first states

that determine the president happen to be the oldest and widest states. So what do you know? Oh, they're changing that. The Democrats just changed. Well, the Democrats, and that's a great move. That's a baller move. Yeah. But we know? Oh, they're changing that. The Democrats just changed it. Well, the Democrats, and that's a great move. That's a baller move.

Yeah. But we, I mean, it's pretty straightforward. You know, whether it's Nobel Prize winners or the best rock and roll music or the best tech companies in the world,

they all have one thing in common. They're started, written, or inspired by people in their 20s. Yeah. And they don't- I like the young. So I'm not saying,

I'm just saying the olds did a good job this week. Yeah, okay. I'll give you that. A win for the land of the walking dead. No, they're not walking dead. Season 14. You're wrong again.

You didn't, wrongity wrong, wrong, wrong. You don't have to like, age is not a concept. It absolutely is not. I think we should also encourage young people too. How about that? How about both? How about both? That's what Biden was talking. You can have both. The answer is yes.

Yes. The answer is yes. All right, Scott. Good prediction. I think you're correct on that one. All right. Let's read us out. Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Evan Engel, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Andertott engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows and Neil Saverio. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back next week for another breakdown

of all things in tech. Also, a special thanks to our friend and coworker, Nick from Second Peninsula. We appreciate your good work over the last year. And also, more importantly, we appreciate the fifth dimension. Thank you, Nick.