Pivot - Apple Scraps EVs, Google’s Problematic AI, and the SEC’s OpenAI Investigation

Episode Date: March 1, 2024

Warning: there are already fake AI-generated versions of Kara's book on Amazon. Plus, Kara and Scott discuss Mitch McConnell’s retirement, and the SEC investigation into whether OpenAI’s investors were misled. They also talk about Apple scrapping its almost decade-long plan to release an electric vehicle, and the controversy around Google's Gemini image generation tool. Then, a listener question on what AI can do for HR departments. Follow us on Instagram and Threads at @pivotpodcastofficial. Follow us on TikTok at @pivotpodcast. Send us your questions by calling us at 855-51-PIVOT, or at nymag.com/pivot. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Support for Pivot comes from Virgin Atlantic. Too many of us are so focused on getting to our destination that we forgot to embrace the journey. Well, when you fly Virgin Atlantic, that memorable trip begins right from the moment you check in. On board, you'll find everything you need to relax, recharge, or carry on working. Buy flat, private suites, fast Wi-Fi, hours of entertainment, delicious dining, and warm, welcoming service that's designed around you. delicious dining and warm, welcoming service that's designed around you. Check out virginatlantic.com for your next trip to London data, and a matching engine that helps you find quality candidates fast. Listeners of this show can get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at Indeed.com slash podcast.

Just go to Indeed.com slash podcast right now and say you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash podcast. Term'm Kara Swisher. And I'm Scott Galloway. How you doing, Scott? Great. I'm in one of those weeks, it's just me and my youngest. So we did our favorite thing last night. We went to Selfridges for dim sum and then came home and watched the Chelsea game and they beat Leeds three to two in the 90th minute. So kind of a perfect evening. Dim sum at a department store and then football. Are you going to ask about my week? How's that going? Let me guess. Book tour? Yes.

Let me guess. Nelson Mandela and David Hasselhoff did a book signing for you last night. By the way, if you could get Nelson Mandela to host a book party, that'd be very impressive. Yeah, he's not living, Scott. I'm sorry. How are you, Kara? How are you? Good. Try that again. Try that again. Try that again? Yes, try that again. It's like when you call customer service and it's all dogs and they just suggest that you throw up and eat it.

That has nothing to do with anything. I just like it. I think that's funny. Nothing. Nothing. Let's try to get you there to ask a nice question about a nice week. Because I'm not going to talk to you like this during your book thing. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Kara, how are you? Good. Good. Good. I'm sorry. Kara, how are you? Good, good, good. Tell me more. No, no. Don't make it a big deal.

When your book comes out, I'm going to be supportive and friendly and ask you how it's going and everything. But daddy's books sell on their own. Do they? Ooh. That was cutting.

Should I go look at the number that you're at on Amazon? I'm in the top 100. I'm four weeks out. Trust me, you don't want to play this game. I told you, I'm the Ted Cruz of media. People can't stand me, but they keep voting for me.

Okay. All right. We'll see how that goes. I've decided I'm going to write a self-help book next. That's my next thing. It's not self-help. It's financial literacy. It's like how to get rich.

I think you're sometimes in the, well, what category do they put you in? That's an interesting question. Da-da. What category do they put you in when they decide you? Category? Yeah, on Amazon, there's all kinds of categories. I get it. What's your category?

Tech? Well, I'm number one in pop culture and social sciences, number one in computers and technology, memoirs. Oh, shit. You're really going to read this? Where are you in narcissism? Numero uno. I'm number one in memoirs right now.

I'm ahead of, he leadeth me in Extraordinary Testament, Power of God or something. This is, it's a really interesting game. When did the bestsellers list come out? Tuesdays, I think, Tuesdays, yeah, I think it is. We got a lot to talk about today, including Apple putting the brakes on its car project. That's a big deal.

And Google is in hot water thanks to its A model, although I think it's a big, it's an overreact to it. They'll fix it. But this is what's interesting because this is about AI because same thing with the AI model. My actual book on Amazon, you'll find a range of choices of AI-generated biographies. There's been several stories written about it. This is reportedly a theme with AI-generated summaries of buzzy books, mostly sold as eBooks popping up on the retailer. Savannah Guthrie, who we'll have on, I saw Amazon. I'm like, what the hell is going on here? It's like I'm Gucci and you're selling knockoffs and putting them right next to my thing. It's News is flooded with AI versions of the news, which are inaccurate most of the time if you read them, if you know anything about it. It's a really interesting phenomenon that I wasn't expecting. It's weird that they're not able to fix that, that it would show up.

I don't get that. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I think it's going to happen all over the news environment and the books and things like that, because these AI, neither news stories or books can get generated instantly. And also with pictures of you, like drawings. Do you like the drawings of me?

I look very femmy in all the drawings. Yeah, it's sort of like how a, I think like a teen boy would imagine you or something. They're all a little bit more feminized. I don't know what the term is. Yeah, they're very feminine. They're porny.

I find them porny, you know? Yeah, I wasn't going to say that, porny, because I don't. It's okay. They are, they're very feminine. They're porny. I find them porny. Yeah, I wasn't going to say that, porny, because I don't. It's okay. They are. They're porny. They're weird. And I have big, hangy earrings in them. It's just a really, you know, I can't imagine.

This is a perfect example of these platforms. What can we do? Like, they could do something about this. This is their store, and they've allowed, you've allowed knockoffs that take away money or also ruin the experience. I mean, I was on the Today Show with Savannah. If you get a shitty thing that comes with her book, you think it's her, right? And so that creates all kinds of brand mistakes. I wonder if there'll be lawsuits or with the publishers and stuff like that. I don't know if news organizations can lawsuits or with the publishers and stuff like that. I don't

know if news organizations can do anything about the stories which are proliferating. I will give you this. You are everywhere. Everywhere I turn, I keep seeing reviews or comments or reviews. You realize you're getting reviews of reviews of you. Yeah. Well, I'll tell you why. And I'll just bring it up very quickly is that in the New York Times review. I bet this is going to just skip right by. You know what? When it's you, you talk about you. I'm not going to skip by because I think this is sucky. My ex-wife worked for Google, but not for six years after I met her or something like that. Oh shit, we're back to this? You talked about that? We know, we know.

No, I'm telling you, that's what they're discussing. I think it's rude. We get that. No, I didn't earn my chops. She did. And people think I'm successful because I'm a white male with outdoor plumbing, which is correct. Which is correct. Anyway, yes, it is everywhere. And there's even more coming, just so you know. Tonight, I have weeks and weeks of a book tour.

I did have good marketing on this thing. Oh, God. I'm going to regret this. Tell me about what you're doing next. What's next? Tonight, Lorraine Powell Jobs and I are going to talk about the book at 6 and I in Washington. That's a flex. I got to give you that. That's a flex. Yeah. Yeah. It's going to be good. And then next week, it'll be Mark Cuban, I think, and a bunch of people in Los Angeles. And Sam Altman, you might have heard of him. Oh, God. That's a big one.

Reid Hoffman, Gavin Newsom. Wow. Gavin Newsom is doing a book thing with you? Yeah. Wow, that's amazing. And then I had one in Los Angeles with Bob Iger, but he can't do it for very good reason. And so Ted Sarandos stepped in for him. Oh, just you and Ted?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, he's the backup singer. He's the backup singer for that. The guy who played the brother in Married with Children, he's doing my book thing. Yeah. I'm going to do one of your book things, and we're going to have it out. That's right.

We are going to have it out. I'm doing one with Danny Bonaduce. Nice. I love Danny Bonaduce. The Culkin kid that's not famous. Is there one? I'm trying to think of, like, obtuse characters here. Anyways, I'm going to do ause characters here. It'll be nice.

It'll be nice. But the best part was at the book party that you gave for me. Which was great. Which was great. Which was great. Thank you so much for all your work. By the way, I got a bunch of messages from people at the party. Yeah, I know.

I know. Yeah. You know how I got the funniest message from? I got real time messages from Jessica Torlov, who, by the way, is my new hero. She's amazing. I love her. She's on Fox News, The Five. I could almost watch Fox News just to let her make... Whenever she's on and they have three other anchors on and she breaks into her thing, she is so right, so on point. She shuts them down and very poised. The other three, I'm not exaggerating, the other three look like they've been caught masturbating.

They have the stupidest looks on their face. They're like, I don't know how to handle this. I know. Yeah, Janine, hero. All this truth, all this truth that's making me look so stupid. Yeah, yeah, she's really good. She's my hero. She's literally The Five on Fox News. My mom was there. And I said, Mom, this is Jess Tarloff from The Five. And my mom looks at her and she goes, I don't like you. Like, I don't like you as the character on the show. She's the liberal right character. Jess, who is pregnant, gets down on the ground, right, face to face with my mother

and chit chats with her. And when she gets up, my mom goes, I love this woman. And she just turned to me and she goes, I'm really good with Republican Fox viewers. And then she invited her to the five, to go to the five in the audience. She's great. She's the best. I wanted not to like her though. I was on Bill Maher with her. She was the other panelist. Oh, right. That's right. And every time I've been on Bill Maher, I go on the videos of it and everyone's like, Scott's a gangster. He's amazing. This time it was all, Jessica's amazing. Jess is amazing. And I'm like, I hate that woman. No, she's a great lady. She's a great lady. I'm joking. I know you are. She's the kind of lady you would like. I do like her. I'm the one who brought her up. Okay, good. What is wrong with

you today? You're literally co-opting my friends and compliments. You know what? You're jealous of my success this week. That's what I think is happening. I did my testosterone injection last night. I'm especially aggressive this morning. People are going to be made uncomfortable by your distaste for my success this week. Distaste for your success. Last thing, I invited Don and also Brian Stelter and Chris Licht also. And so they, I think that's the first time they saw each other since he fired both of them. Brian Stelter? Yeah, Brian Stelter and Chris Licht also. And so they, I think that's the first time they saw each other since he fired both of them. Brian Stelter?

Yeah, Brian Stelter. He still loves me. I was in, I was, I told you this, I was trolling around the hallways of Time Warner during my show, CNN Plus, and I waved at him and I'm like, Brian, he was getting the elevator. He literally tried to ignore he heard me and dashed into the elevator. And so for the next half hour, I'm thinking, why does Brian Stelter hate me? Why does he heard me and dashed into the elevator. And so for the next half hour, I'm thinking, why does Brian Stelter hate me? Why does he hate me? I'm like, have I ever said anything about Brian Stelter? Shall I ask him? Shall I text him right now? No, no, no. I'd rather live

in anonymity now. I probably didn't see you. He probably has bad eyes. I do that all the time. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. It was one of those moments. Direct eye thing? It was one of those moments where he literally looked at me, looked away, and then was like a dog who'd been caught getting into the trash and thought, if I don't make eye contact, it didn't happen. And then he just ran into the elevator. But literally, for the next half hour, I'm going through my life. I'm going through my history like, why does Brian Stelter not like me? It's like my junior year in high school. Well, you could have asked if you came to the party.

Anyway, we're going to move on from that. in high school. Well, you could have asked if you came to the party. Anyway, we're going to move on from that. Interestingly, speaking of somebody who didn't come to the party and is leaving, not leaving the party precisely, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell will step down following the 2024 election. Trump outlasted him. He's 82, has been the top Senate Republican since 2006. Can you imagine? He did cite age as a factor, saying it's time for the next generation of leadership. There's probably a lot of pressure underneath him among the leadership of the Republicans. He seems to be planning to serve out the remainder of his Senate term representing Kentucky until January 2027. It's a reminder, why should he leave, right? McConnell has a series of health scares in the last year,

including freezing up during news conferences. You know, he's wrangled. He hasn't been able to get through the Ukraine aid. He's wrangled over the border stuff that he wanted passed. And he's not as, you know, he's lost a step, I guess. Republicans will meet to pick a new leader after the presidential election. So it's going to be a while. There's a lot of Johns in the, and I don't think one of the more conservative members will probably, Colley is going to probably make a bid for it, would be my guess. Maybe Cruz, who knows? So the Johns are replacing. Any thoughts on Mitch McConnell? Well, I mean, quite frankly, it doesn't, it hurts Biden because he's the same age. I've become fond of Mitch McConnell, Senator McConnell, only because he's been very steadfast and courageous is what you need in the Republican Party now to say anything that's not the party line. because he's been very steadfast and courageous is what you need in the Republican Party now to say anything that's not the party line. And he's been very pro-Ukraine. And despite

his party pushing back on him, he's anti-Trump. And he's one of the few people, I don't like his base, his principles, if you will, his political base, his beliefs. Well, the thing he did with Merrick Garland, remember that? But he does have a moral compass. He believes these things. And I have a lot more respect for him than the majority of Republican senators who will just flip-flop on any issue trying to kiss the ass of Donald Trump, hoping they'll get Secretary of Interior or something. But he never said anything. He hasn't talked to Donald Trump since before the insurrection, actually.

When he, like, he hasn't talked to Donald Trump since before the insurrection, actually. That is the closest to rejecting. He's, who has been more, first off, no one's coming out against him as a sitting senator, as far as I know. Romney, Romney. Okay, who is retiring. I mean, here's the thing. There's something about being a Republican, I can't stand these guys, where all of a sudden their testicles start to grow the moment they leave. I can't stand these guys, where all of a sudden their testicles start to grow the moment they leave. I mean, it's literally all of them decide that this is the wrong guy and it's terrible after they've left office. All of them. All of them. And none of them actually. There was one very brave Republican senator who gave a very eloquent speech on the floor saying, why on earth are we not passing this immigration bill? You're telling me it's because we don't- There is one senator who's against him. There is another one, but go ahead.

Go ahead. Okay, there we go. One. At least Senator McConnell, I can't, you know, he, you got to give him his props. He played the Democrats like a fucking fiddle. Yeah, that's why I'm not going to give him his props. He was much more strategic. He was strategic.

He was very smart. He was in it for the long game. And I do think that he had a moral compass. much more strategic. He was strategic. He was very smart. He was in it for the long game. And I do think that he had a moral compass. It's not the morality I admire nor endorse, but at least he had a compass. All right. But I think he brought real bare-knuckled stuff when we needed compromise, the stuff he did around Merrick Garland. He was effective. He overturned Roe v. Wade. That's correct. Right. So he's effective. He's good at bringing people's lives down. I think he entered an era of less than comedy between both sides. I think he was one of the main people who did that. He didn't, not bending. Yeah, but he leaves as one of the more reasonable ones. That's how fucked up things have gotten. That's how fucked up things have gotten.

Of course. That's how fucked up. Everyone's like, well, he was against Trump. I'm like, I don't give him any props. Because he didn't go, if he had that backbone, he would have done it all the way. And I get that he can't do it because of the way his party's gone. But now it's the party of even the Senate, which had been a holdout to Trump. It's the party of Trump. It's not the Republican Party.

It's the Trump Party. So anyway, we'll see who replaces him. Do you think he should serve out to 2027? I don't care what he does. I don't really care. Whatever. The Kentucky people can decide that. Trump party. So anyway, we'll see who replaces him. Do you think he should serve out to 2027? I don't care what he does. I don't really care. Whatever. The Kentucky people can decide that. But they don't. He's the senator, so he can do whatever he wants. He'll probably, you know, freeze up or whatever. One of the people who will replace him, it'll be a white guy, an old white guy. The SEC is investigating whether OpenAI's investors were misled. The internal communications of OpenAI's CEO, Sam Altman,

were being looked at along with everyone there. The commission sent a subpoena to the company in December seeking internal records, including these communications. The request to follow the OpenAI board ousting of Sam Altman in November. Some of the directors at the time said Altman had not been consistently candid in his communications. This is what the SEC has to do. If one or two board members said this, they have to investigate it. It's part of their job. It doesn't mean that there's any malfeasance. It also doesn't mean that nothing wrong happened, right? They've got to investigate this. So I don't know. They do this all the time. Am I wrong about this? I don't think they're looking. It's not a

fishing expedition either. It's their job. I think you described it perfectly. I would imagine one of the board members who feels upset about it or it's been so public that it warrants some- Well, they were public. They said it, but go ahead. But I mean, here's the bottom line. I think it's a nothing burger. It's not a public company. The people who lost or potentially could have been economically harmed here are sophisticated, accredited investors. I think it's just a formality. I don't think we're going to be talking about it in 30 days. Yeah, we'll see. The investigation itself, there is an independent investigation, which Altman agreed to. So he's obviously confident if he agreed to it, right?

I forget what it is. It's one of the big law firms, independent, well, independent as much as law firms can be. I can tell you the results. Just look at who's paying the law firm. Yeah, well, yeah, that's true. Yeah. Sometimes these things yield things. The CBS one certainly did. They happen.

It happens. That's going to be where the real information is. It seems to me this is just a checkmark for the SEC. And that's what they do. And whenever it's interesting, the journal got this scoop, but it's like, you're kidding. Person did their job. This is the job of the SEC. And if board of opening at the time said this publicly in a statement, they have to investigate it, even if it means nothing. Even if it's a private company?

Yeah. Yeah. Because there's investors involved. They did that at Minterinos. That was a private company, right? They monitor that. Anyway, we'll see. We'll see what happens. Well, I'm more interested in the bigger investigation. And I'm actually more interested in the $7 trillion he's raising, which I will ask him

about next week. Although he's been interviewing me, but I'm still going to ask him about it. God, here we go. Okay. Okay, let's get to our first big story. Apple is scrapping its multi-billion dollar plan to release an electric vehicle, a not-so-secret project that was in the works for almost a decade. The company told employees in an internal meeting this week that the plan, known as Project Titan, has been canceled, surprising the 2,000-person team had been working on it, according to reports. Many of those employees

will now be reassigned to Apple's generative AI projects, which will be interesting to see, because they have a lot less data than other people, because they don't collect it. You were excited about the idea of an Apple car, Scott. I'm surprised they canceled it. Maybe they're working on software. Apple's car was initially envisioned as an EV to compete against Tesla and later a self-driving car rival Waymo, which comes from Google, the Google folks. Elon Musk reacted to Apple's news on X, posting a saluting emoji and a cigarette. Whatever. Fuck you. What do you think, first of all?

Do you consider it a failure? Are they smart to get out of the EV game, even though they never said they were doing it? Look, a strategy and a vision is meant to be unifying, but not a suicide pact. And you were right. Two years ago, I predicted they were going to build the most valuable waiting list in history, that this made a ton of sense. They would need to go after big game, and the automobile industry was big. I felt that Tesla had unearned market cap at $700 billion or whatever it was then, and that Apple was just salivating to go after some of that. But here's the thing. When the data changes, as a good manager, you have the right and the obligation to change your mind.

And a step back from the wrong direction is a step in the right direction. And you know what, Kara? This was absolutely the right decision. Because in the last 12 months, the atmospherics have changed dramatically. And let's just talk about some of those. The EV market is plateauing, if not slowing. All the projections are way overestimated. Consumers pivot to EVs.

Toyota's looking like a genius right now because they did not go all in on EVs. They went hybrid, which is popular. That's right. They went hybrids. Tesla is running up against margin compression. And then you have the company, which is probably the most important company that no one talks about, BYD, is now outselling Tesla. That's right. Do you know Warren Buffett has a big stake in that? Is that right? I didn't know that.

But let's look at the market versus where it was, say, just even two years ago, much less when this project was probably approved. You have a low margin, capital intensive product that is subsidized. Basically, every car company in the world has either gotten federal loans, Tesla, or has been bailed out, GM and Chrysler. It's a massively subsidized industry, which makes it incredibly economically inefficient. They have this enormous competitor with a $600 billion market capitalization that is doing really well called Tesla. They have another gigantic

low-cost competitor that's actually outselling Tesla right now. And the consumer seems to be pulling back from EVs and the prices of used EVs are plummeting. And they look at this, in addition, what has popped up? Generative AI. And so the key to strategy is decisions that attempt to cut a swath between market dynamics and your internal competences in order to add shareholder value. And the key to strategy is not what you say yes to, but what you say no to. And even Apple has finite resources, both human and capital. And my guess is they've said, based on this market, which quite frankly looks increasingly difficult, we would rather take our finite resources. I think EVs, yes, I think everyone overinvested, right? And so I still think it's the direction

it's going, period. I think this is the way it's going. I just think consumers aren't quite ready yet. It's sort of the valley of death area that happens in. But a lot of who got into this? Car makers, right? Car makers got into this and started to make, are starting to make beautiful cars. Now, as they do that, I do think customers and people have, you know, don't have worries about charging and everything else. I do think it's going to move. You're going to see in 10 years, I forget how much of a percentage EVs are, it'll move up. It just won't move up this quickly. That's one. Because I do think this is the way things are going, these autonomous vehicles, excuse me, electric vehicles, and then eventually autonomous vehicles. I think that is the direction. I think science fiction has been correct about this, that we will have autonomous electric cars in the future when we're dead, when both of us are dead. So I think that's, it's just there's so many competitors now. And now you do have like BYD, which is just roasting everybody else. And they're coming here, they're looking at Mexican sites to build a factory so that they can move into this area. So I do think people will have a lot more choice like they do with regular cars. That's one. And so but it's a lot less than the investment. So GM, everybody's pulled back, but they haven't totally pulled back because they realize this is the future. The second thing is, Apple, I was always dubious, as you know,

about them building the car. I'm like, why don't they just work on the software for the car, like making these electric cars work better? Or, you know, Tim Cook never acknowledged this car project and referred to it as work on autonomous systems. I think they should not abandon, I think they should abandon building the car. That was sort of weird to me. But keep at this idea of how to operate transportation vehicles, right? It's a great area. And as to AI, I think it's very important that they incorporate AI into all their products,

so that you, like, assistance, all that kind of stuff. Like, they're going to have a harder time in the AI market because they don't collect as much data. But it's a better bet for them to focus on making these products seamless in a new AI environment. Like my Apple AI talks to your Apple AI kind of things. And I think that's where they're going to get the big push of keeping you in the Apple ecosystem. I'm not sure. You know what I think was likely the final nail in the coffin when they said, okay, it's time to officially announce this is over, is Rivian. Why is that?

Well, okay, Rivian's been around a decade and a half. It's executed really well. I have an order on it, Rivian. Real briefly, I'm going to get that ocean foam green Rivian. I've already outfitted it. And I bought a home in Aspen, and I'm going to drive into town, have lunch at Casa Tua, dinner at Cash Cash. I'm going to be a cliche of a douchebag, and everyone is going to love me.

And I'm going to put my dogs in the back of the Rivian. Anyways, I love Rivians. I think they're beautiful. They're really popular. They have executed really well. They cost about $70,000 and every time they sell one, they lose $42,000. This is an incredibly difficult business. And they probably said, what's the analog here? And they're like, well, the analog's Tesla. And I was like, come on, Tesla caught, got in front of a tsunami when the entire industry didn't want to acknowledge what was happening. They had a spokesperson that brought massive attention to it, government subsidies. What has happened there is a unicorn on top of a unicorn that gives birth to unicorns, right? They said the analog to what we're trying to do here is Rivian. Rivian has

executed well. It's a good-looking car, and they're losing $40,000 every time they sell one. Well, interesting. One of the signs of this was, and I remember paying a lot of attention, this guy named DJ, I think it's Novotny. He was sort of one of the early car people at Apple. He left to go to Rivian. DJ Novotny? Yes. I think I saw him at the Miami Music Festival. I like Rufus DeSole and Calvin Harris more, but he's right up there. I'm sorry, go ahead. Anyway, he went to Rivian and that was a big deal. Now, as to Rivian, it's interesting, one of the people who follows Apple, Gene Munster, said Apple should buy Rivian. That's how to do it. Don't get out, but actually buy it, which I thought was interesting.

That's actually a really interesting, that's a really interesting idea. Yeah. Do you like that? That's Gene Munster who said that. But they're just buying losses at this point. Yeah, but gets them in there. I don't know. It was, that was the alternative.

I guess it's a, it's a huge project and they really are focused in on, they should be focused in properly on integrating AI into their systems and also on their spatial computing. They've got to be focused on that more than this. But buying Ribian could be something. So Gene Munster is my Jess Tarloff of a decade ago. I used to go on CNBC all the time. And whenever I was talking about Apple or whenever they wanted to talk about Apple, they'd bring me and Gene Munster on. And I would just sit there and think, God, he's so much better than me.

Yeah. So he said, Apple's a tech company and tech companies by definition need to grow. And that's the 400 billion dollar question that they have here. They've got all this money. So he feels like to grow the business, you got to get new, they shouldn't. Because he thinks Apple Vision Pro has potential, but the car, they would uh because he thinks apple vision has potential but the car they would grow he thinks it eventually would grow it's an interesting you know he thinks they need to be in a new market and that why abandon it and stay in stay in this market by buying someone that's not an apple thing to do uh you know they're not acquirers um it's an interesting idea but rivian would have to get their financial house in order. It's tough to buy a company that's losing that kind of money right now.

But they'd get a great, great task. That guy who's the CEO of Rivian is impressive. Yeah, but it has about an $11 billion market cap, which they could do easily, but it's still hemorrhaging money. So it's a really interesting idea if they could get sort of to or close to break even, then I think it'd be a great idea for Apple. But as you said, Apple doesn't like to make acquisitions. All right, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about Google's AI mess and take a listener question about what AI will do for HR. Ooh, a lot of letters. Fox Creative.

This is advertiser content from Zelle. When you picture an online scammer, what do you see? For the longest time, we have these images of somebody sitting crouched over their computer with a hoodie on, just kind of typing away in the middle of the night. And honestly, that's not what it is anymore. That's Ian Mitchell, a banker turned fraud fighter. These days, online scams look more like crime syndicates than individual con artists. And they're making bank. Last year, scammers made off with more than $10 billion. It's mind-blowing

to see the kind of infrastructure that's been built to facilitate scamming at scale. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of scam centers all around the world. These are very savvy business people. These are organized criminal rings. And so once we understand the magnitude of this problem, we can protect people better. One challenge that fraud fighters like Ian face is that scam victims sometimes feel too ashamed to discuss what happened to them. But Ian says one of our best defenses is simple.

We need to talk to each other. We need to have those awkward conversations around what do you do if you have text messages you don't recognize? What do you do if you start getting asked to send information that's more sensitive? Even my own father fell victim to a, thank goodness, a smaller dollar scam, but he fell victim. And we have these conversations all the time. So we are all at risk and we all need to work together to protect each other. Learn more about how to protect yourself at vox.com slash Zelle. And when using digital payment platforms, remember to only send money to people you know and trust.

Plans and guides that make it easy to get home projects done. Out. Beige. On beige. On beige. In. Knowing what to do, when to do it, and who to hire. Start caring for your home with confidence.

Download Thumbtack today. As a Fizz member, you can look forward to free data, big savings on plans, and having your unused data roll over to the following month, every month. At Fizz, you always get more for your money. Terms and conditions for our different programs and policies apply. Details at fizz.ca. Scott, we're back with our second big story.

Google CEO Sundar Pichai is calling the recent problematic responses from the company's AI tools completely unacceptable in an internal memo to employees. Google took its Gemini image creation tool offline last week after it generated racially inaccurate pictures of historical figures, and in some cases refused to depict white people. I'm sorry, it made me laugh. There are other issues about what Gemini's text-based responses. In one instance, the chatbot refused to say whether Elon Musk's tweeting memes was worse than Hitler. Pichai says teams are working around the clock to address issues and already seeing a substantial improvement. Google parent company Alphabet lost some $90 billion in

market value earlier this week. Many right-wing critics and commentators have suggested the Gemini situation is evidence of anti-white bias among big tech, which is my favorite thing I've ever heard. I don't know. Go visit these places. Thoughts? Thoughts? Like, the whole DEI, you know, whatever, Ben Shapiro, whatever conservative commentator gets their hair on fire on this. That's not important. What it is, is another kind of what I'll call self-inflicted injury or what you call, what's the term? Unnecessary foul. I don't know what the term is. Against Google. These things tend to have a momentum and it feels like Google is turning into the gang that can't shoot straight right now. You would think just in basic QA, someone would have noticed this. That when you type in the term Nazi and it returns black people, something's not right with the AI.

Yeah, it just isn't working. Yeah. So it's just weird that they didn't catch it. The whole woke versus non-woke thing, that's just a fucking sideshow. Who cares? Yeah, it is. But although, even before, Ben Thompson wrote in Stritch a Tree, I thought this was a miss by him, that Gemini Incident speaks to the larger issue with Google's company culture. He suggests cutting, quote, employees attracted to Google's power and potential to help them execute their political program, which would include Sundar. Ben, obviously, you've never spent time with Sundar. He is literally the most down the line. I would press him at times to be, you know, during the Muslim ban, I told him he should speak out when we were having lunch, and he wouldn't do it. Like, he was very, he's very, like, not wanting to do that. That's nonsense, Ben. I'm

sorry. This was a piece of nonsense you wrote. I know that people go to work at these companies. I know the senior people not as well as you, but I know them. They don't go to lean left or to lean red or lean blue. They go to lean green. They got to make money. They don't, they would, the notion that they're there to advance some political agenda. If political agenda is buying a Gulfstream 650 extended range and being able to be a billionaire such that the rest of their lives, they'll be under the impression that they're loved because that's what it means to be loved in America, then sure, that's their political agenda. But they avoid politics. They'd rather not. Really, truly. He is in particular. He in particular. We would laugh about it. I'd be

like, are you going to say anything? He's like, I am not. Like, he's just not like that. Yeah, but that's his superpower. He stays out of the crosshairs because he's very likable. He comes across as very gentle, but very smart at the same time. But there's just no getting around it. Google overnight, because of open AI, looks flat-footed and poorly managed. It's true.

They were the first people who bought these companies with deep mind. That's what's incredible, right? I mean, they were, I wrote that story. They were first. They were first. I think they've, I think you could say this about Sundar. He's too cautious. I think people, and he's indecisive is what sometimes you hear from people in that he didn't, he probably wasn't moving forward because of regulatory issues quite as aggressively, right?

Not, there's no, they're not worried about woke or not woke. They had that incident a couple of years ago with that guy, but that guy was this one guy who was saying shitty things to other employees. And that was about shitty things to other employees, to me, in my mind. And of course, the right made it into some big thing. I have spent so much time there. Google is just not, there's no finger snapping happen at Google all the time. It's just not. They got rid of Timnit Gebru.

They got rid of people who are trying to be more social justice-y, right? Or what they would consider social justice-y. I like what Timnit is doing. Just, it's laughable. Now, let's say these products aren't working. But you know what? Grok made fun of Elon Musk. They just don't work

these things properly. There was one that OpenAI had the other day in their movie in Sorrow, where they had a guy lighting a cigarette and it was all ass backwards. And it just doesn't work. Some of it's not ready for primetime. But I do think that Google's got to get more aggressive in this space very much. They have all the tools. They've got all the data, all the technology. They could come right in. Microsoft, of course, is the one that was smart about this, of all of them. But Google can come right in here and do very well. They can turn it around in seconds.

Well, our prediction last week is that this is the year the empire strikes back, the empire being Alphabet. They just have so much access to proprietary data, specifically your email, your viewing preferences on YouTube, your calendar. I mean, think about. And it's theirs. And it's theirs. That's the thing. Think about you give them permission to access your calendar or your email, which I would do in exchange for utility. And the dirty secret that we all don't want to admit is we all give up tons of privacy in exchange for utility.

And they could say, oh, Scott, you're going to South by Southwest. We see you stay at the Austin proper. Should our AI reach out to the Gemini-enabled AI at this hotel, Jane, and find the right rate in the right room? We know what kind of room you want to stand. We know where you like to hang out. And we'll just send you alerts and set it all up. Yes, no, do you want to be here? I think it's going to be a great year for Alphabet. They need to get it together. That's all. And, you know, let me just finish up. Yes, no. Do you want to be here? I think it's going to be a great year for Alphabet. They need to get it together. That's all. And, you know, let me just finish up on this like idea that this is a mistake they made.

It was stupid. But let me just tell you, for years, Google search had a problem was every time you search CEO, it was all white people. Right. This went on and on and on. But it is all white people. It is. But yes, I get that. That's accurate.

Yes, I get that. I get that. But I'm just saying there were controversy after controversy get that. That's accurate. Yes, I get that. I get that. But I'm just saying, there were controversy after controversy about that. And now, for one brief shining moment, the right-wing fuckboys can say everyone's against them. You know, honestly, stop it. They just overcorrected. Exactly. That's exactly right.

I'm going to call them fuckboys from now on because it'll bother them. Is that anti-woke? Is that anti-woke? Call them fuckboys? Yeah. It's a gay term. Fuckboys? I have those. They cost $400. I'm called a John. Anyway, but I'm speaking at TED, which is my flex, and I'm going to- What? Oh, you are. I saw that.

Anyways, so I'm starting to put together my presentation, and I go to these places. I'm looking for images. I'm going to these places for clip art, you know, I type in family or whatever. It's all ethnically ambiguous, hot people. It's like the, it's like, it's like the key party I want to be invited to. It's all these ridiculous, I don't, I don't care if you're bigoted or you think the future should be patriarchal white people. Mixed marriages or mixed race marriages are producing the most beautiful generation of people in history. And clip art, it's like, I have no idea what their background is. I just know they're hot. Oh my God, clip art. It's my new porn, Kara. It's my new porn. Anyway, just so you know, a fuckboy, besides being a man who has many sexual,

casual sexual partners, is a weak and contemptible man. So I think it's the perfect word. Anyway. Where did you get that? Where did that come from? I just was looking it up. I just looked it up. I said the word fuckboy. I wanted to see what it actually meant. And I just told you. Meanwhile, I like to use the dictionary. It's known as a derogatory term, by the way. Meanwhile, several digital news outlets, including The Intercept and Raw Story, are following in the footsteps of the New York Times, filing copyright infringement lawsuits against OpenAI. The outlets say thousands of their stories and Raw Story, are following in the footsteps of The New York Times, filing copyright infringement lawsuits against OpenAI. The outlets say thousands of their stories were used by OpenAI to train chatbots to answer questions posed by their users.

We're going to see more of these lawsuits until deals are made. There's also been some deals made with, I think, Reddit made a deal with Google, I believe. WordPress made a deal maybe with OpenAI, too. Everyone's doing deals or suing each other on this area, correct? This is what's going to happen. When I saw this story, it reminded me. Last night I spoke to, I got a call from Andrew Morse, the guy who used to run CNN Plus, and now he runs the Atlanta Constitution or Atlanta Constitution Journal. He does, yeah.

And he's a really thoughtful young man. And he called and said, I'm writing an op-ed about how we need to play offense in the traditional media business. And I said, I got to be honest, I think traditional newspapers are just fucked. And he said, well, why is that? And I said, well, imagine that you have these nascent platforms, quote unquote, or these technology platforms, Alphabet, Social Meta, where consumers now get two-thirds of their news. And imagine if you're not a quote-unquote technology platform, i.e. the New York Times company or the Washington Post or Gannett, you have to pay a 40% tax. There's no way you can compete. And it's like, well, what do you mean? We don't have to pay a

40% tax. I'm like, absolutely you do. It's called not having Section 230 protection. Because you are liable, because, and I'll use News Corp, because News Corp does not have Section 230 protection, they can run a fraction of the stories that disparage and slander Dominion voting machines, and they get fined $800 million. Whereas these technology platforms, who are protected by Section 230, can just let content run amok without the tax and extreme cost of moderation, editing, fact-checking, and ensuring. Yep. They're not paying the costs. I've said this a dozen times this week. They don't pay the costs that everybody else does.

So the frame through which we should be looking at this is, do we want traditional media and They don't pay the you are. I don't care if you're backed by a billionaire. That's not changing them. Well, it- Bible laws are going in the opposite direction. They're trying to, the Republicans are trying to make them even more heinous. Well, I do think at some point, I'm still hopeful that there'll be car routes around Section 230, but the bottom line is the place where most people are now getting their news complain that they're not getting fact-check news.

And it's like, well, okay, folks, but the guys you like or the guys you're rooting for pay a 40% tax. They do. Because they're not exonerated from liability, which is probably a good thing. Well, in this case, it's copyright, which is very good laws. The laws in copyright are quite stringent. So this is what they have to do, but it's going to cost them. It's going to cost them. These people have less costs than you do. But you're right, they're fucked. This is something, interestingly, it's one of my themes this week. I was like, they're like, what can we

do? I'm like, nothing until they have liability. When they have liability, plenty. There's plenty. Parents can sue Facebook, you know, all these kind of things. I was like, until then, until they pay the costs of what they, pay the cost of the damage they do, nothing, because they can operate with impunity in a weird way. Well, that's the deterrent side. And I agree with you. I think you're 100% right. I would go further than that. Until there's a perp walk, nothing changes.

Ah, you love it. I mentioned you on several shows. I said Scott Galloway thinks there should be a perp walk. I mentioned you many times. Well, I want to be clear. I'm not a lawyer, and I'm not a judge. But what I will say is I'm not going to try and convict anybody. But until someone shows up in an orange uniform, we can't find fines that are big enough. Well, let's just be able to sue them to start. There's no perp walks for anybody anymore who's rich and can get out of it. Anyway,

not very many. Not very many. There just aren't. Sorry. I don't know. Sam Bankman-Fried, Elizabeth Lombs, they're both in prison. There's two. You got two. Agreed. That's it. Fair point. Fair point. Anyway, let's pivot to a listener question now. This question comes from via email. I'll read it. Hi, Kara and Scott. My name is Ximena, and I'm a huge fan of you both and the pod. It is basically, quote, required reading for weekly Friday night dinner with my friends. Have fun. I work at a startup and have found

myself in the HR space and what is now called, quote, people operations. My question for you in this age of AI, how do you think the functions and roles that deal with humans will be impacted? Oh, what a good question. The use cases for AI in data analytics, creative work, and more are becoming increasingly clear, but to what extent do you think AI can support and replace managers and HR teams? Thanks for all you do, Ximena. Let me just say everything. HR is a perfect area for this, but Scott, you start, you start because you employ people more than I do. It's not going to, if you're a growth company, it's going to be, it'll be fantastic because if you're growing fast, the need for additional human capital will supplant and fill in the HR problem of having to lay off people. In other words, if you're growing 30% a year, well, logically you need 30% more people, right? Or 20% more, but instead you're only going

to need 10 or 15% more each year because AI is not going to take anyone's job. It's not going to be Mary the copywriter is replaced by AI. It's going to be, you're only going to need two Marys, not three or four, because Mary, if trained and armed well, will just get more productive. So it's a good thing. It's a great thing for the economy. Productivity is not everything, but it's almost everything. Where it becomes an HR fucking nightmare is for the 80 or 90% of companies in our economy that are only slightly growing or not growing, because then they use AI, quite frankly, to lay off people. And in their earnings call, if they dare say, as Klarna said, and it wasn't an earnings call, Klarna's thinking about going

public. If they say AI is doing the work of 600 people, you have an HR nightmare on your hands the next day. Because the HR manager has a line around our office going, oh, I'm thinking about taking another offer. Am I at risk here? Our CEO is saying that we're using AI to replace people. So what's happening right now is CEOs and low growth or modest growth companies are lying. Or they're not being straight with their employee base because the problem is it is not an aspirational all hands to say, I've got great news. Our earnings are up because we've gotten more productive and I've got even better news. I'm going to need less of you moving forward. What could they use AI for in HR of all the different functions they have. Oh, I think every, oh my God, everything from churning out offer letters to saying, okay, this is the situation the person is leaving, have the AI figure the severance and come up and produce the agreement they need to sign so they don't shitpost us when they leave

in exchange for six months severance in their Cobra. I mean, onboarding and offboarding are incredibly time intensive. And there's a lot of contracts and a lot of lawyers involved. I wouldn't be surprised at some point if AI gets a certain amount of input and starts making at least recommendations, if not the actual promotion and compensation decision. Recommendations for hiring, you mean? Yeah. Because they'll have all the data, right? They'll have all the data. And now it's, they don't always know. That's one of the things I was always amazed by when I was working it. They don't, first of all, they keep salaries hidden, right? So people don't understand it. And even the managers don't quite know who's being paid what and how much and different things. It seems like it's all like, it seems it always has seemed more than, you know, everyone was like, oh, they're actually trying to screw women and people of color more than men. They get paid more.

They usually did. But more, it was more chaotic than anything else was always my impression is that's why that happened was because it wasn't, there was no analysis going on. I was like, isn't this organized somewhere? And then I was like, no, there's just a spreadsheet with no thinking about it, right? That was always my impression of HR is that it was less nefarious, although it could be nefarious at various points, than people think in a workplace and more totally disorganized because the information was all over the place. So you said a lot there, a few things. One, that non-whites and women made less. That was true. It's not true any longer. If you look at the data, and companies are now very sensitive to this, where you do see discrepancies on a job-for-job basis is at one crucial point, and that's when a woman decides to leverage her ovaries and have children. Corporate America, we have closed the gap. We really have, if you look at the data, where it's still, where there is still a problem is corporate America has not reconciled how to maintain the trajectory of a person's career, acknowledging that the species needs to continue. That's where we still have a hole. But on the whole, we have made huge progress. There's a lot going on there. But the most difficult thing, I think, in all of business, and this is from a board level, a CEO level, a manager level, is compensation. And here's the bullshit.

You know what would be the biggest raise that labor could have is if there was a hack or a law that mandated that you published the compensation of every individual in your company. Because there's an asymmetry of information, and an asymmetry of information always benefits the person or the organization that has symmetry. Because your employer knows that you're making X and someone else is making 1.3X for doing the same job. And if you knew it, you might be pissed off and you might go in and say, hey, Bob is making 30% more than me and it's bullshit. So you either true me up or I'm out of here. This gestalt, this whole thing that talking about your salary is like talking about sex

is nothing but a transfer of capital from workers to shareholders. Because if you're not complaining or you're not doing a market check, you don't know that Joey Bagadona sitting down the aisle is making 40% more than you. And by the way, he's worth 40% more and so are you. They're just paying you less because you don't know. Well, what it does is there's a lot of things it could do to try to make things clearer for the HR people. That's one thing in the answer to this question. The other thing is that it will be used.

AI is going to be used by bosses for efficiencies, and that will be an HR nightmare in terms of, it will eventually, you know, shake itself out. But there are going to be a lot less people working at things, whether it's law associates, anything that AI can do more efficiently is simply going to happen. There's no way these bosses are not going to do this. It makes perfect sense to do so, even if it seems heartless. It's just, that's no way these bosses are not going to do this. It makes perfect sense to do so, even if it seems heartless. It's just, that's the way it's going. If you look at the arc of technology, though, that's a glass, a little bit of glass half empty, or at least a short-term view, because with every technology, whether it's a semiconductor, computers, or agricultural technology, one in three Americans just 100 or 120 years ago

made their living in agriculture. Now it's one in 25, is that in the short run, there's some destruction of jobs, but it creates so much productivity and so much additional capital to reinvest that it ultimately ends up creating more jobs, right? That's the hope. Well, it's happened with every technology. In this time, I think people are a little more nervous

because that would hit people. When I was at a dinner party, they were all bemoaning this. And I'm like, you didn't mind it when you got cheaper strawberries. You didn't mind it. You know what I mean? I think it's just the class. Try build a house with automation.

It's the agonized class that's now getting it, the ones that are very. Well, it's whoever's on the wrong end of it and doesn't want to learn new skills, right? I'm 45 or 50. I'm an SVP making a lot of money, and I don't want to fucking learn AI. Well, guess what, boss? The 30-year-old is going to learn AI, and he or she is going to take your job. It's trite, but it's true. AI is not going to take your job.

Someone who understands AI is going to take your job. The opportunities for new jobs and the opportunities to start storming the castle with a smaller, more better-trained army, I think a lot of these big companies are going to find upstart competitors with 10, 12, 100 people that are punching so far above their weight class because they built the mother's milk of where they started their DNA with AI skills. Scott Galloway, techno-optimist. There you go. So sorry you lost your job.

Anyway, thank you, Ximena. We really appreciate it. That's a great question. Got us chit-chatting about something we think is important. Jimena, that's a wonderful name. Jimena. Jimena. By the way, in Austin, I'm hopping around a lot here.

I'm caffeinated and have ADHD. But in Austin, I'm going to go do that ketamine therapy at Koya or someplace like that. Oh, why there? Why are you doing it there versus somewhere else? A friend of mine owns a clinic there. He pinged this guy. They heard, the wonderful thing about a podcast is everyone knows where you're gonna be.

And so they invite you to cool stuff and I've been invited to go do a massive hit of ketamine. So I'll talk about it. Doesn't it over a course of several sessions? I think this is a singular session. I think you do a pre-session with a therapist, which for me should take no longer than seven or nine days. To make sure you're not crazy, right? To make sure you're not too unstable. Yes.

Well, you got to be very careful. You can't suffer from schizophrenia. But anyways, you do a pre-session with a therapist, I believe. Then you go on, you do the session, you have a therapist asking you questions. It's with you, right? And then you do kind of a post, whatever it is. And I've been offered to do it. There's nice chairs. There's nice chairs. There's nice chairs. I'll probably check it out.

I've supposed to. I'll do it with you. I don't want to do it with you. So I've been doing Burning Man. I mean, you'll do it and we'll both talk about it, but I'm not going to go do ketamine with Karis Fisher. I don't mean in the same room. I hear about your childhood promise every day of the week, twice a week.

That's true. That's total. That's fair. I got an idea. Let's do it together and I'll be your therapist and just ask you questions. That'd be good. That'd be good.

But it's like Burning Man. I think I'm going to do it. I plan to go. And then I chicken out at the last minute. You went to Burning Man. No, I've never done it. I think my window's closed. What?

No, you got to go. I've never been. I'm not going. I have a determination not to go. So, and I've kept- Unless I can go to one of those camps with Russian hookers've never been. I'm not going. I have a determination not to go. So, and I've kept. Unless I can go to one of those camps with Russian hookers and a chef, I'm not going. My window's closed. I'm going to Casa Tua and Cash Cash at Aspen instead.

I remember the last time I went to Coachella. All I could think was, it's so hot. I'm too old for this shit. And it's already old Chela. That's what they call it. Do you know that? Yeah. Everyone goes to Stagecoach now.

Now it's country music. Kara doesn't go to any of these things. It's so funny. Oh's what they call it. Do you know that? Yeah, everyone goes to stagecoach now. Now it's country music. Kara doesn't go to any of these things. It's so funny. Oh, they're fun. I don't know. I'm not interested. It's because you don't do drugs or drink. I don't.

That's what it is. Someone is asking me. You know, I like these book parties. I have one on Friday here in DC, too. I don't like parties. That's why you don't dance. I bet you don't dance, right? You don't like to dance?

I don't. Yes, because you don't drink or do drugs. Dancing is awesome as long as you have no self-awareness. Amanda is always like, who are you? I don't like. I bet you don't dance, right? You don't like to dance? I don't. Yes, because you don't drink or do drugs. Dancing's awesome as long as you have no self-awareness. Amanda's always like, who are you? I don't like to swim. My family just marvels at me. They're like, you really don't like all the good things. I don't like to swim. I don't like water. I literally am very happy by myself just reading. Just not swimming and not dancing. Not dancing, not drinking. Staying dry and not moving. Not moving. I'm very happy. I like to walk. I don't know. I'm really dull in that regard. Anyway, if you've got a question of your own that you'd like answered, send it our way. That was a good question. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call

855-51-PIVOT. All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails. Okay, Scott, let's hear some wins and fails. Okay, so my win is this billion-dollar gift that was given at Einstein University by a woman named Ruth Gottesman, I believe her name is. So, Ruth, or Professor Gottesman, I should say, she's taught there for decades. And she could have had the school renamed after her for literally a quarter of that amount. And instead, she refused. And actually, the backstory is she wanted the gift to be anonymous, but was persuaded that if she reveals who she is, that it might inspire others. Anyways, no tuition. It's easy to be critical of this. There's some issues. One, it lets schools off the hook. As long as they continue to get these ridiculous donations, they have no reason

to cut costs. And ultimately everybody, there's some issues, but on the whole, the core of this is a woman who is giving a billion dollars such that people can pursue careers in medicine and not have debt hanging over them. And anyways, you just have to admire that sort of generosity and that sort of expression and that sort of legacy. My fail is a weird one. I'm being critical of a company I used to be on the board of. I don't know if you saw this, but Panera Bread, basically Gavin Newsom signed into law that minimum wage goes from 15 to 20 bucks for fast food workers. And I guess a buddy of his is somehow involved in Panera, although I never met him. And somehow Panera Bread got an exemption because there's an exemption in the bill for restaurants that serve bread. And this is just

pure political bullshit. Pure political bullshit. And so what I would urge to the board of Panera and to Governor Newsom is this is a moment of opportunity to say, we value our employees, especially our frontline workers. Our company is doing amazing, and it is, I know this firsthand. And of course, we are going to comply with the minimum wage laws across the rest of the industry and pay our frontline workers 20 bucks. But this is nothing but naked political backroom bullshit. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point. That's a good fail. I would say my fail, since I'm going to just do it off the top of my head, was the Supreme Court not agreeing to hear the Trump immunity case,

but taking so frigging long and bringing it so close to the election. They should act quickly on an issue like this. This is an important issue. I don't think it's wrong for them to bring it up. I think it's actually the right court has to hear this immunity question. It's a big question. But the feet dragging, I know people think it's fast. It needs to be faster. I don't care.

This shouldn't be bumping up against an election, which I think now this case, this January 6th case is going to. They're going to have to wait for April 22nd. Hey, what do you, I know you have other cases, but this seems to be the most important one. So, and it's going to get right, it's going to, oh, what a, it's going to be a nail biter right up to the top. And so, and then if he, and if it goes past the election, he wins, he can, he can pardon himself, right, off this thing or get rid of it.

It's just this, the Supreme Court is abrogating its responsibility by not hearing it quicker. They've already taken weeks to decide to take it slower. You know, I've read all this stuff, but it's your responsibility not to make a mess. This creates a real problem. And I think it's, I don't know. I think they're just hoping one of the candidates dies and makes their lives easier. In any case, in any case. It could happen, folks. It could happen. And my win is Jess Tarloff with my mom. Thank you, Jess. Thank you. And by the way, people of Fox News, I'm coming to see The Five with my mom. We're coming there. I can't wait to see you, Jesse Waters, you giant idiot. I'm so excited., that's my win. I'm sorry. Forget the five. I love Jess. Jess, I love you.

That was the most incredible experience. Really? The most organized show I've been on, by the way. It's a phenomenon, right? It's a phenomenon, but it was so well done. The producers were great. The green room was the best green room I've ever been in. The food was amazing.

They had the beautiful mug for me. I may send it to you because I think you'll love it. It was so great. And all of them, let me just say, the questions were great. The crowd was amazing. They have the beautiful mug for me. I may send it to you because I think you'll love it. It was so great. And all of them, let me just say, the questions were great. The crowd was great. It just was a really lovely experience. They were all smart and sharp, and they were having a really great discussion. And each of them has their own little personality, whether it's Joy or Sunny or Sarah. And Alyssa Farah, I think, is the one that got me there.

She's the conservative one. Oh, I love her. I mean, the future ex-Mrs. Galloway. She was amazing. She's amazing. We don't agree on lots of stuff, but I really thought, I just thought it was an intelligent conversation the whole time, and I was really pleased with it. And Whoopi Goldberg is the coolest person on the planet. She's so cool. And like, she just watches, you know, and then she weighs in with like, but doom. I don't know. I just, I love that. I just, I want to be on the view now.

I want to leave you for the view, ladies. They need a lesbian. And, and that should, I should be. They're not lesbian? No, nobody's. They don't have a lesbian. No, they don't have a lesbian. That's on the other one.

They have a lesbian. Well, I don't see sexual orientation. Well, they need a lesbian. They need a that's what they need anyway um great that was great that was my that was my win that was i was so excited i shouldn't be so excited but i was i did a lot of great interviews and thank you one of the things that was really i liked a lot from this part of the book tour and it's continuing was everybody asked really substantive and great questions and i it wasn't. And that was nice. And I think I was really heartened by that.

Really prepared and really good journalism or whatever it is to discussions can be really wonderful. So I like that. So that's what I would say. The view. You know, the first thing I would say if I was invited on The View, I would say, ladies, the first thing a man looks at in a woman is her heart. The fact that her breasts block The View isn't our fault.

Is that wrong? Is that wrong? You are not getting on The View. Anyway, Scott, that's the show. We'll be back on Tuesday with more Pivot. Scott, read us out. Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Ruttat engineered this episode.

Thanks also to Drew Burrows and Mio Saverio. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of audio. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com slash pod. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Kara, have a great weekend.