Pivot - Apple Sues OpenAI, States Move to Block Paramount Deal, and McConnell Conspiracy Theories

Episode Date: July 14, 2026

Kara and Scott discuss Lindsey Graham's legacy, the conspiracy theories around Mitch McConnell's new photo, and whether the Democrats can still pull off a victory in Maine. Then, Apple sues OpenAI over alleged trade secret theft, marking the company's latest setback. Plus, Kara sits down with California Attorney General Rob Bonta to unpack his multistate lawsuit challenging the Paramount–Warner Bros. Discovery merger. Watch this episode on the ⁠⁠Pivot YouTube channel⁠⁠.Follow us on Instagram and Threads at ⁠⁠@pivotpodcastofficial⁠⁠.Follow us on Bluesky at ⁠⁠@pivotpod.bsky.social⁠⁠Follow us on TikTok at ⁠⁠@pivotpodcast⁠⁠.Send us your questions by calling us at 855-51-PIVOT, or email [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Learn more at harvey.aI. If you sit in the sun, you may just get burned. But some people are willing to take that chance. There is this certain degree of nihilism of like, oh, well, the world is bad anyway. Why wouldn't I just also get a tan? Tan maxing. That's this week unexplained to me. Find new episodes wherever you get your podcasts.

Do you have chest here? I don't recall. You don't have chest here. Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine in the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher. And I'm Scott Galloway.

Scott, I want to understand why you took Ed to the game and not me. Explain where you were. I'm teasing. Well, it's because I like Ed more. I figured, yeah, yeah. Explain where you were. You have no interest in World Cup. I would have gone had I been asked.

I would have considered it. Do you want to go on Wednesday to Atlanta? No, I don't. Well, okay, so don't give me shit then. Do you want to fly me there? Well, you know, at last minute I can't get places like you can't. Explain to me what you did, to tell people where you were, because you were quite, you looked the happiest I've ever seen you, I have to tell you.

I might have been the happiest I've ever, or I've been in a while. Look, I have no interest in sports. I decided consciously, I used to play a lot of golf because when you're in your 30s and trying to run a strategy firm and you're basically renting your brain to old white guys known as CEOs, you have to play golf every weekend. Right. That's the only anyways. And I decided about 20 years ago I was going to pour all the time I was spending on golf into fitness. And I've played sports in college, but I have no interest in professional sports. I think it's mostly a waste of time. Every four years, I go crazy for the World Cup. And this one has been the most special of the three,

because the way I describe the World Cup right now is it's a bunch of cousins who just love each other and their parents are out of town and they're doing a sleepover despite the fact that parents don't get along. Oh, okay. And I think when you're sitting in that stadium, and I went through a lot of logistics and costs

to get from Italy to Hard Rock Stadium in Miami and find seats for me. It was Miami. I didn't know where that was. Yeah. It was Miami. It was me, two friends and my youngest. But when you're in that stadium, and 70,000 people are singing in harmony, Sweet Caroline, which is associated with Team England.

And then we all, including the English fans. Was Hey Jew? Well, Sweet Caroline beginning the game, Hey Jude at the end, in honor of Jude Bellingham, which is, in my opinion, the man of the tournament. And then everyone, including the Team England fans, start rowing, which is the Norwegian signature. And when Norwegian Airlines,

living up to their bet, changed their logo to British Airways, Yeah, it was cute. It's like all of the goodwill that is resident in the world appears to be bubbling up in the World Cup. Also, good men. I mean, the Norwegian guys. I'm sorry they didn't win because I liked his whole act, his whole manly act. All cute Bellingham, every time he leaves the field, he honors his mother, talking about mental health. I mean, I'll do this.

I'll do a longer diatribe on this next week. But I struggle as a lot of people do. You know, it's like healthy masculinity. It's like porn. We know it. We just don't know how to describe it. What's happening in the World Cup right now, and you reference this with the NICS, is pretty damn close.

Yep, it is. No, 100. It's the same thing. Strength, generosity, understanding how to lose, you know, talking about mental health, talking about the less privileged. Male hugging.

Yeah, being affectionate with each other, getting along with their enemies. You know, it just, it's just cooperation, excellence. Do you know what I call it? I call it un-ugly. There's not a bit of ugliness in it. I have to say I can... 100%.

Un-ugly. There's so much ugliness, and we'll be talking about a lot of that today, but I just... It's really lovely. I mean, I just... I'm only going to miss the Norwegian. That's all.

I just think he's... What's his name, Harland? Holland? Holland. Yeah. He's amazing. I have to say. He looks like he could kill...

Like he'd be the person on the bad end of a mace if you were living in the medieval times. But he actually is just like so adorable. in really lovely ways, just so kind, like just a kind large man, which is really a great juxtaposition, I think. Anyway, I'm glad you had a good time. So you're going to the semis and the finals? I don't know if I can get to the semis.

I'm going to try. I'm trying to see if I can just work it out logistically because it's in Atlanta, but I'm going to the final. But you're talking about Holland, who plays for Man City. Yeah. When you're watching, if you know anything about football and you're rooting for the other team, You can't relax because this guy is like a great white shark. He is. Amazing.

Just lurking out there waiting to explode. And we have our own guy on Team England, this enormous guy who was able to neutralize him. But yeah, it's just fantastic. I'm enjoying it so much. He looked very happy. You looked very happy. Had a great time. Relaxed is what I perceived it.

There's some other not so happy things going. We're going to get to the 12 Attorney General's suing against the Paramount merger, which just dropped. We're going to talk later, and I'm going to talk to Attorney General of California, Rob Bonta, later. But we first have to start with South Carolina Republican Senator Lindsey Graham died from a terror in a say aorta, apparently, according to preliminary findings from the D.C. medical examiner. Graham passed away on Saturday at age 71 a day after returning from Ukraine, where he was getting some stuff done. President Trump spoke to Graham hours where he died, noting he said he was tired but wanted to pass the same America. Of course, I'm sure he did. did not say that. The scramble to replace Graham in the Senate and the short term and long term is underway. We're recording this before the South Carolina Governor Henry McMaster announces who he's appointed the seat that's happening in a few hours. Trump wants it to be grand sister. Nancy Mays says she's not pursuing an interim appointment, but would be remiss if she didn't look at running for the seat. Treasury Secretary Scott Besson has also reported fielding calls to run.

They can't really use house people because the house is such a thin margin if they pull something from the house. It was pretty shocking because everyone was sort of focused on Mitch McConnell, who offered proof of life on Sunday after weeks of speculation of his whereabouts in health. McConnell released a statement in a photo where he's holding... Wasn't that proof of near death? A lot of people don't think that photo is... They think it's AI, which is... I would tend to agree. I've talked to a lot of experts. He said a fall led to his hospitalization. He's in rehab and won't be returning to the Senate quite yet. As you say, biology is undefeated. But there's still

so much suss around this guy, like what's happening with him. He's not running for re-election, and I think he wants to stay around at least so that the Democratic... The Republicans get to appoint, as opposed to the Democratic governor. No, no, the Democratic governor has to appoint a Republican. The Democratic governor gets to a point. It just has to be a Republican as they pass this law that now the Democratic governor might push back on and say it's unconscionable to do. He could appoint Thomas Massey, by the way, FYI, which would be something. So I don't think, you know, it's just what a mess. I mean, obviously, Lindsay Graham was not that old. 71 is not old. I talked to Jeff. I had dinner. I'm in San Francisco with Jeff last

night and he said, you know, he apparently had some chest pains and was ignoring them for a little bit or had some discomfort. And this is something that just happens. It's what John Ritter died of. Yeah, they ought to terror. Certainly if he had had been diagnosed, they could have done something about it, but a lot of people, this can kill people really quickly. Any thoughts? I have a lot of thoughts here. Look, the Internet's gone crazy with conspiracy theories. So I have what technically qualifies as a conspiracy theory because it's in the fringe now because social media can't make money off of it. And that is the 71-year-old male who was out of shape traveling and under constant stress had a heart attack and died. I just don't, that's my theory here.

And the larger point, and I'm going to come back later in the show to Senator Graham when we do wins and fails, but the larger point is that one of the things that really curses the world right now and causes chaos, oppression, authoritarianism, can be reverse engineered to really old people that won't fucking leave. Yeah. Oh, I like how you're pushing your hand on the desk. I'm just... Yeah. No, he's not 71, 71 old.

I mean, I wouldn't. It is. Are you kidding to fly to Ukraine and back and understand TikTok? I mean, for God's sakes, go home. Yeah, he didn't want to go. The average age of an American is 38. The average age of our senator is 65. Watching Mitch McConnell freeze up or talking about a 71-year-old man

have a heart attack as if it was clearly done by. the Russians or the Iranians. This isn't a story about Mitch McConnell. Right. For people who don't know, one of the conspiracy theories was Russia. It's a story about American political system that refuses to make room for the next generation. Yeah. Yeah. If we got rid of tomorrow, if we decided globally, anyone over the age of 70 has to announce a retirement, oh, you'd get rid of Netanyahu. You'd get rid of Putin. You'd get rid of Trump. You'd get rid of Biden. You'd get rid of these people in the Supreme Court that aren't even writing their own briefs. anymore. They're just political ideologues. A third of the faculty, I work with the best faculty in the world. A third of them should be put on an ice flow. What, like 65, you're saying, right? Because

65 is for the New York Times, 65 is for generals. I think, I'm just curious. I'm curious what you're It's 72, 70. Well, I want to find a group of neurologists. Mitt Romney had it perfectly. The guy looks 50 years old. He looks like an Abercrombian Fitch model, but he's about to turn 80. And he's cited that by By the time you're 80, key parts of your brain have shrunk by 10 or 15 percent. We don't need presidents falling asleep in briefings. We don't. Do you remember the same bullshit? I get served the clips because they know it outraged me of the CNN show.

I feel stupider with Abby Phillips. Basically, the pattern is they've figured out they have a cheat code for massive viewership. They have essentially the chief propagandists for the Trump administration say something just ridiculous and then a bunch of off-off Broadway progressives go fucking insane. And they get, I think it's the highest-rated show on CNN. They have Scott Jennings say something ridiculous, right? And incendiary and stupid. And then he said out a conversation with him.

Scott, you are lying. The same conversation I bet he had with Senator McConnell, is the conversation I had with my father in hospice the last 14 months, and that is I would say something, and my dad didn't know who I was or where he was. It is so, to think, just think about it logically for God's sakes. all this tumult, all this doubt, if he managed to, if he could,

if they were capable of pumping him full of stimulants and just getting a 15-second voice recording honoring his friend, Senator Graham's passing. Yeah, he didn't say anything. They're very close. That was unusual. Because clearly he can't, Kara. Yeah, the picture was odd. I have to say, I think the issue is astonishing.

And some of it funny, I hate to say it was all the memes and everything around Lindsey Graham, obviously. there's a lot of talk about his sexuality, which was, you know, people are like, it's too mean. I'm like, oh, just let the world do what it wants. But the meaming that's going on here, and then the conspiracy theories are really heavy. Like, they're somewhat heavy with Graham about whether he was killed by the Russians or poisoned or this and that. And then McConnell, forget it. It's now, like, open.

It's really fascinating. I'm curious if you think it's a good thing or a bad thing, like these, these, the memeology and the, the conspiracy theories and everyone looks at the picture and is where is his thumb? Is it really an AI? Is it AI generated? Like, it really just nobody believes anything. Nobody believes. And even the believable stuff is unbelievable, if that makes sense. Well, conspiracy theories, they're more novel. Unfortunately, we've attached a profit incentive to conspiracy theories, which feels harmless and fun, but essentially it attacks our institutions. that there's no one that's believable anymore. And we don't defer to our institutions. And so I think there's an underlying, because the problem of these conspiracy theories that, oh, MRI vaccines alter your DNA,

is that if you see it enough, because it's novel, the algorithms, elevate it beyond its organic reach. You should have the right to say conspiracy theories. The issue is, should social media companies that have a profit incentive to elevate it beyond its organic reach, You then normalize conspiracy theories. They then become less outrageous, and then they become self-evident.

And that's the problems, that a lot of these fringe theories become normalized when they ordinarily wouldn't have, because we've attached a profit incentive to conspiracy theories. The broader point about Mitch McConnell into Senator Graham is that this isn't about in these memes. It's not about mocking an aging man. Aging comes for all of us. The failure belongs to us, the people, and the institutions that keep insisting that octogenarians should be making the highest stakes decisions in the world. And leadership in both parties increasingly resembles the board of a company that forgot that succession planning is part of the damn job. And every CEO is told in their final responsibility that they need to leave the company stronger than they found it. And we fire CEOs who don't build a bench and announce their retirement at some point.

And in politics, we've somehow decided the goal is to die with your hand on the steering wheel and take people out with you. And experience matters, wisdom matters, but so does energy, cognitive sharpness, the willingness to pass the baton. Yeah, but it's a game here. It's a game to keep him in place, even if he's weekend at Bernays, right? Even if he's like... That's why we need age limit. That's right. I agree, but that's what's happening here because the numbers. He's not going to be able to pass the SAVE Act now because it's so tight, right? And it's just nothing's going anywhere. And that's what they're doing here is trying to game the system, whether or not letting Bashir do his job or whatever. And in the house, the same thing. And, you know, it's all gaming. It's all gaming. And it doesn't matter if you have to prop up an old man. And you do start to believe it. I looked at that picture. And I was like, that looks funny. It looks like he had a face. They're right. But then is it true?

Is it not true? I'm going to be clear. I'm part of the tinfoil. I think it's fake. I don't know. I just, I definitely am like, huh, suss. You know, I actually, like, I literally was like texted Harvey Levin and said, the Republic is up to you to get in that hotel, I mean, that hospital room and get us a real video of something.

I mean, I can't believe no reporters can figure this out, and we have to rely on Scott Jennings. I agree with you. Let me just ask you an honest question. Let me ask you a question. that would require any semblance of logic. Given the Tomol, given the doubt, given the power, if he just recorded, not even a video,

a 10-second voice memo. It's gone too far. He's got to be wheeled out in front of them. It would solve so many of his and the Republican Party's problems, and he clearly can't even do that. Right. I would agree with you. I think if they wheeled them out

in front of, or in the hospital, and he said, I'm really sick, I'm trying to get better. And that would solve it. But they won't do it. You're right because they can't do it. That's exactly right. To me, let me just wrap up it because I'm, I do think that if the world would be such a better place of Netanyahu, Trump, Ginsburg, Biden had been forced to leave at a certain point.

And the thing about America is we don't have an age problem. We have an incentive problem. We reward incumbency, celebrity, and fundraising over renewal. And the result is a government that too often looks like it's being run by people who remember the Cold War better than they understand AI. If you want democracy, you have to believe in the importance of turnover. The best leaders don't prove their greatness by never leaving. They prove it by building a bench that's ready to replace them. Enough of...

Think about how much... For God's sakes, what would the world look like if we had more Zelenskyy, and I'll even go Mom Donnie, and we had more youth for God's sense. I would agree. And then they could duke it out, right? Then they could do it out. Let them have it. Let them have their conspiracy theories.

Speaking, I'm going to move on because we have to go to that. But Graham Platler has, speaking of young, trying to get a young, vibrant person and has officially withdrawn from the main Senate race following the accusation of sexual assault, among other troubling revelations from his past, which we had discussed. We did not. There was a point where he said, if it goes further than this, then forget it. Democrats have until July 27th, the name of replacement to challenge Republican Senator Susan Collins. Actually, the Democrats' chances went up with Platterner coming out because he was declining.

The Maine Democratic Party will hold a convention on July 25th, where candidates can make their case to delegates for a nomination. Let's hear a clip we got from Axios reporter Holly Otterbine, who's been covering the race and how things stand. Now that Graham Platner is finally out of the race, Maine Democrats are scrambling to find a new nominee by the end of the month. A whole boatload of candidates have jumped in, about a half dozen, and most of them either ran for governor or Senate earlier this year and lost. One of my biggest takeaways from the race as it's been shaping up so far is that Graham Platner is still having an enormous influence on the race. Now, granted, nobody wants his endorsement, but a lot of them, almost all of them to a person, sound like Graham Platner. One of the biggest examples that I can point to is a man

named Dan Kleban. He's a brewer. He's actually centering his campaign around voting against Chuck Schumer for a majority leader, a promise to do that. So I think that this shows that the main Democratic candidates have really internalized that the Democratic base is furious. They're angry at the economy. They're angry at Trump. They're angry at their party. And that that's what this Platner mania was all about. And that in order to win, that's what they've got to replicate. That's very smart. What do you Obviously, we were wrong about Graham Claver. We basically, Scott and I said that the main voters should decide this, but if more came out, it would be a real problem.

That's exactly what happened. In this scenario, what, what, it matters because it is about control of the Senate and they have a very good chance of grabbing this seat if they do it, right. Look, I don't, as Democrats do, we're more interested in self-flatulation than actually figuring out how to take control of the Senate. And I would argue, I would argue the Democrats largely got it right here. when he had a Tottenkump tattoo came to light. As a Jew, I found that really troubling. Having said that, a guy in the military dodging IEDs and made a mistake, and I saw no pattern of anti-Semitism.

I wasn't willing to disqualify him and say as an anti-Semi because I saw an errant mistake. I didn't see a pattern. Then a woman said he was physical with her. Very disturbing. She, in the middle of a campaign, was a Republican operative. All right, I think it was fair to say

there's an asterisk around that accusation. When I was on holiday last week and I heard about this additional accusation of rape, I immediately went to YouTube and watched it. Within in about five seconds, I'm like, she's telling the truth he needs to drop out immediately. I mean, it was just, quite frankly, it was just, and he did.

Or let me put this way, he's still trying to hold on to his power. Basically, Democrats now are saying, how do we find Graham Platin, minus the rate part. They're all trying to find a rough, you know, like an oyster brewer, you know, whatever you want to call it, tat it up that does, you know, the drinks, Papp's Blue Ribbon or whatever. But now what we're doing is the following. We're, instead of focusing our energy on how we actually hold ourselves to a higher standard and will exit and offer them people like this. Again, I'll go back to my favorite show on CNN. Scott Jennings said, they asked him,

do you think Platner should have resigned from the race? And he said, if there's corroborating evidence around this type of activity, sure, you should resign. Okay. The ultimate corroboration in our society around situations that have dramatic gray areas, context, nuance, you weren't there, is the following. We put them in front of 12 people from different backgrounds. different viewpoints. We let the prosecution have input into the jurors. We have the defense. The president of the United States was found civilly liable for sexual abuse. So the notion that Democrats are spending more energy with this weird self-examination as opposed to focusing their energy on how we will actually ticket people who run a yellow light versus the double murder

homicide of plowing through stop signs that is the Republican Party, I find comical. Okay, so what do they do here? It looks like they're going to pick one of these, a logger or a brewer or whoever. They're going to get one of these people. What is the move here from Troy Jackson? I'm in a weird way, all this, all this ridiculousness around holding onto the land of the dead with McConnell and the fact that it's not unusual for a 71-year-old man who's out of shape to drop dead. That happens, folks. I think it's going to help us. I'm more optimistic about the seat because I think they're going to find somebody who has a lot of chest hair, who says the right thing, who can tap into this movement, hopefully Platner. Plattener started or

tapped into this movement. I actually think he might be powerful on the campaign trail for the new person or whoever that is. You think just keep him out. No, keep him. I mean, especially including his advisors. Did you see that interview with the two Oh, my God, was that cringe? They're going out. What's that voice called? Were they effective voice? Fricle fry.

Oh, my God. They're going out for two of them. Is this the Democratic Party? At the first, when I saw those two, I'm like, oh, my God, we're fucked. That's who's running the Democratic Party now? I mean, the whole thing. It was just like, oh, my, how, they just decided on this guy and didn't do any betting that looks like at any betting whatsoever.

I mean, this guy seems to have just, you know, at one point, a friend of mine, Lulu Garcia, Navarro, it interviewed him for the New York Times. And she goes, is there anything else? And he goes, no. Like, and of course there was lots else. Like, and that was pre the second part, which was a lot of people saying he was, you know, a pig. And then it, then there was a third part.

This guy's really needs some help. You're right. He should just exit the stage. Exit the stage. He should just go away right now. Get some help. But I do think, I think the aging, quite frankly, is going to shine a light on Susan Collins,

who is 76. And quite frankly, looks 86. It, it, I mean, enough already. Enough all right. Enough all. Democrats, this is a layup. Find some guy, you know, with tattoos. You go up there.

Do you have chest hair? I don't recall. You don't have chest hair, do you? Oh, my God. Are you kidding? No. They need to find a candidate that, like, that has, you know, pieces of more masculine men and they're crap than me.

Yeah. They need to find a dude who... This is a problem of the Democratic Party. Not a lady? I'm not a lady. I'm just going to be very honest, Tara. I agree with you. I agree with you.

I agree with you. I agree with you. It has to be a guy. Let's be smart, not politically correct. Find a fucking, find a fisherman who hasn't raped people. Find a logger. That, okay, that might work. A lesbian. That my work.

Well, the fact that the Democrats cleared the field for Janet Mills, that to me, me. It was a Chuck Schumer. Fuck up. Like, cleared it for an older lady who did a very good job, but was like was not palatable to voters because of age and other issues. That's the problem, as Democrats. There could have been a really great race here and they didn't, but let's hope there is one now. Okay, let's go on a quick break. We come back. Apple Sue's Open AI. This is a corker. This is advertiser content from Harvey AI. We have a choice over who we work with and who we don't, specifically who we allow to advertise and who we don't. And for those of you who watch my content, I am not an AI catastrophist. I'm an AI optimist. I think it's going to create more jobs

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Recent reports have surprised me because of so much information out there about me and how careful I am with my privacy. And yet, data brokers continue to assemble all manner of files about me and about family members and others that I am always shocked by when I see it. Take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Delete Me. Now at a special discount for our listeners. Get 20% off your DeleteMe plan when you go to join DeleteMe.com slash pivot and use the promo code pivot at checkout. the only way to get 20% off is to go to join, deletemeat.com slash pivot and enter the code pivot at checkout. That's join deletemeat.com slash pivot code pivot. Scott, we're back. Apple is suing OpenAI and one of its top executives accused in company of stealing trade secrets to develop its own hardware.

The lawsuit filed last Friday claims OpenAA asked job candidates from Apple to share details about secret projects and to bring device components and prototypes to interviews. OpenA. is denying the accusation saying we have no interest in other companies, trade secrets, which reing focus on building innovative technology that empowers people everywhere. Apple is asking for a jury trial and demanding OpenAIA destroyed proprietary material and pay damages. This is something else.

This is right in Steve Jobs' playbook, similar when Apple was filing suits against Android companies. It'll be really interesting. Also, let me go through the whole thing. Open AIs number two executive. It's Fidgisimo. It's going to have a big role

when the company went public, just stepped down. She's leaving for health reasons. Elon, of course, is loving this. He posted about Sam Altman on X. He takes scamming to a whole new level. He calls him Scam Altman, to which Sam replied, Homeboy, you're the one selling public market investors on short-term space data centers.

Elon then responded after stealing an open-source AI charity, then stole all of Apple's phone technology. Wow. And by the way, SpaceX shares are really dropping almost below their IPO price. So what a fucking mess. Let's dig into it, Scott. Any of these many things that are happening here. Open AI's had, I mean, the hits keep on coming.

They're not good hits. It's a hot mess. It's a hot mess of a company. I mean, they're being sued every which way but loose. They've had, I think their head of safety just resigned. They did, yeah. They've shelved their IPO because it's clear the money furnace. I mean, I feel, and I'm writing a post on this, for the first time, I'm like, okay, this is 99.

And if you remember 99, it was first there was B to C went. We knew the technology was going to survive, but there wasn't enough demand on the front end. the Pets.com and the Amazon got cleared out first, or went down 90%. And they're like, but wait, we believe in the technology, so it must be about B2B. And then when that didn't work, we went to the infrastructure place. Open AI and Anthropic have both, it looks like, delayed their IPOs.

All of a sudden, what looked like a supply crisis, remember just a few weeks ago we were talking about, there aren't enough data centers, there's not enough energy? all of the front end creating the demand, the majority of it has flipped to supply because they weren't creating enough demand on the front end. All of a sudden, all of a sudden, XAI and META have said, oh, wait, we don't have the demand we thought on the front end.

We're going to flip to supply. So I think the cracks are really beginning to emerge. Because then the supply will go down. And also then you have Alex Karp and others, like Microsoft CEO, Satchanadella, saying, hey, these AI companies are stealing your business. They're analyzing, handing it over to them, lets them become competitors.

That's a really interesting new wrinkle, too. It's like, they're going to steal your things. Of course, people who have stole things are telling you they're going to steal your things. So, yeah, I agree with you. Something is about to, like, break, I feel, don't you? I mean, it just feels like very precarious, is what I would use the expression.

Oh, this is, this is, I feel like we're in Q3, Q4 of 99. right now. And just to get back to the case, Tan is accused of coaching employees on how to circumvent Apple's data security policies and encouraging them to bring confidential parts to interviews. If they have the goods on that, that's really bad. Oh, my God. An engineer Chang Liu allegedly kept his Apple laptop and exploited a bug to download files, texting LOL so funny. And Apple stated that OpenAI has had to take unlawful shortcuts while under mounting pressure to deliver its first commercial hardware products.

So if this was one of the AI players going after the other, but when Apple goes after you, and not like that, this is going to get a lot of attention because, quite frankly, this is going to snare, the strafe is going to hit Johnny Ibe, who was a bit of an iconic legend there. He was mounting a device company with OpenAI that then had its own accusations. He started a device company

that was acquired by OpenAI for $6.5, $7 billion, the majority of which I think will be written off. I think that will prove in terms of write-offs. I think Johnny I was a genius and an icon and deserves all his accolites. That will go down as arguably the worst acquisition in the last few years because I think they're going to have to write off the entire thing.

And the interesting thing will be what the legal remedies will be, because it'll take months or years, depending on how quick open AI is to settle. However, it's going to have an immediate impact on the business. The device is expected to be unveiled this year. This gives them the excuse, Kara, and this is my prediction for later in the week. The device is never going to happen. Yeah, same thing with their browser, apparently. 100%. It was interesting because remember when this happened, it was like, oh, Apple just gave Open AI a real lift.

And then the deal degenerated into nothing, like, really? and now accusations of stealing. They're such a hot mess. Like every day, someone leaves. People, I think, are quite well-regarded leave. I think the number two executive really had health issues, really, indeed, from what I understand,

from people I know. But it seems like, what do they do now? And of course, Elon then looks like, well, just because a scammer tells you you're a scammer, doesn't mean you're not a scammer, if that makes sense. I don't think, Elon. I don't think, he's just using, he's just piling on right here. I can tell you as someone who's just spent a lot of time in boards talking about the right type of CEO, what people fail to realize is that there are just very few people in the world who can go from A to Z.

There are people who can envision a company and hook up the printer and raise the initial seed capital and get it to letter C&D. There's some really talented people who can take it to institutional rounds and get it to letter H and get it to scale. And then there's like a few dozen people in the world who were able to then do that and then run a public company. It's just you're asking someone to be a decathlet. And the way I would describe Sam Malman, if I were on that board, I would be saying, this guy's a visionary. I don't think he's an operator. I don't think he's assessing the financials, the capital commitments, the risks. The relationships with people.

There's a lot of, you know. The ability to retain talented people. In some, he quite frankly looks like the guy's clearly a visionary. The question is, is he an operator? Steve Jobs was a visionary and a marketer. Tim Cook was the operator in the supply chain to go from $300 billion to $3 trillion. In my view, it's, I think Sam Altman should be kicked up to chairman, and they should bring in an operator that understands how to run this types of complex organization. I think that's exactly what's going to any name you can think of? I wanted to ask you. He's got a lot of burnt bridges, I'll tell you that. They're piling up.

You know what the example is? I apologize for keeping her up to you. It's going from Travis Kalanak to Dara Kostr Shahi. They need a Dara Kostr Shahi. Who is Dara Khasahi? They really do, because then they could clean it up. And, you know, because Sam has got a lot of people who don't like him. And by the way, Travis is a genius and an innovator.

He just wasn't the right guy for the company at the time. And he's also a terrible person. Who do you think? I'd have to think really hard. There are several. The thing is you've got to keep it exciting because you know your competition is Dario, right, who seems to have some skills, more skills than Sam does and moving it forward, right? So that's who your competition is. But you're right, Dara is, that kind of a Dara-like personality is like that.

And there's not many. I suppose Brett Taylor maybe. I don't know. That's an interesting one. That's a great one, actually. Yeah. I'd have to really think. I'd have to really think. There are several. There are several. You know, had she been, had she lived, Susan Wigiske would have been on the top of my list for that. I can't think of a whole lot of people, though. I just can't. I just can't. I mean, they're going to have to do something, but is this board strong enough to do it? That's the thing. Or are they going to stick with Sam? But he's definitely created all. You know, and him, by the way, them tweeting back and forth, they look like fucking, he just walked into Elon's trap. because Elon, everyone thinks Elon's a villain and an asshole. And so Sam, by fighting with him, it's a mistake.

And I liked Homeboy, and I agree with him about the short-term data centers. Most people think it's kind of ridiculous. But you walk into everyone, it's already built in that Elon's an asshole. And so you just become an asshole at the same time. Anyway, we'll see what happens here. I think you're right. I think they're going to have to replace him. I do.

I agree with you. All right. Let's go on a quick break. We come back. California and 11 other states file a suit. to block the Paramount Warner Brothers merger. I'll be talking to California Attorney General Rob Banta all about it. Years ago, Netflix said that its main competitor wasn't some other streaming service.

It was sleep. And maybe that explains why all of a sudden Netflix has games, it has tons of reality shows, it has video podcasts, and maybe going forward it even has YouTube videos. This week on The Vergecast, we try to figure out what Netflix is going forward. And whether it's still a streaming service, we want. Plus, the future of smart glasses, what's going on with quantum computing, and yes, we have a Trump phone. All that on the Vergecast, wherever you get podcasts. Is Kamala Harris running for president again?

Listen, I might. I might. I'm thinking about it. But does anybody want that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I don't see why not.

Absolutely, I think Kamala Harris should run for president again. I don't think there will never be a woman president in the United States. Now, why, wait, you can't just walk away on that. Tell us why. I know it's still early to talk about 2028, but as we build to our post-Trump future, it seems to be a big question about the Democratic Party. Kamala Harris leads all of the presidential polling. So does this mean that the person who led the ticket in 2024 is going to lead the party again in 2008? The campaign needs to be called bye-bye.

It's just a tainted brand. Do you think from a donor? community largely that there's any appetite for a Harris return? I don't. I'm a Sted Hearnton, and this is America Actually. Catch us every Saturday on YouTube or wherever you get your podcast. It all started with Call Me Maybe. Over 10 years ago, we created Switched on Pop to Listen Closer,

uncovering the songcraft behind even the glossiest of pop hits. Since then, we've released almost 500 episodes. We've defined the sounds of our modern soundtrack and interviewed hundreds of musicians and music insiders, including the song. singer of Call Me Maybe herself, Carly Ray Jepson. I'm musicologist Nate Sloan and I'm songwriter Charlie Harding and on July 14th Switched on Pop is embarking on a new chapter. We're stepping out from behind our microphones and in front of the camera to stream our podcast on Netflix. Now, you'll still be able to listen to the show anywhere you get podcasts, but now you'll be

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I think that's right, from 11 other states, a dozen, just filed a lawsuit to block Paramounts, $110 billion merger with Warner Brothers Discovery. The suit alleges the merger will help reduce competition, creating higher prices, less content, and hurt movie theater. Cable Disturages is quite a narrow lawsuit. Bonta and his fellow Aegees are asking Paramount and Warner not to close a deal while the case moves through the courts. So a couple of things we want to talk about here.

It's very narrow. From what I understand, talking to people, there's a lot of feeling it paramount. I don't think they thought it was going to be a dozen of these things. I thought they, I think the negotiations didn't go very well between Bonta and Paramount. There was this weird threatening to leave California, which I think is nonsense. So, Scott, give me your quick thoughts here. I'm mixed here, Carrick, because I can see why when Republicans in the Trump administration

are happy to weaponize the courts and the legal system to intimidate the press, I kind of applaud AGs in DAs in blue states pushing back. and say, all right, girlfriend, two can play at this game. Because quite frankly, I don't think there's a legal basis to claim that it's monopoly power. I think on a pure economic competitive level, when you're facing YouTube and these different platforms, I don't think it's a monopoly. But at the same time, what's good for the goose, right? I would just go through market share and say, in terms of viewership time, you know, YouTube's at 12%,

Netflix is at nine, the combined, I just failed to see how this triggers any sort of legal review. What is the legal justification for blocking this merger? It kind of just comes down to that. That it creates, like, it becomes 86% of the market is shared by four companies only versus six to seven or whatever. It creates, you know, this is the idea that it creates a smaller group of buyers, a smaller group of distributors. and that's essentially it. And then theater owners will have to raise the prices. A lot of actors are kind of upset. I think he has to do this.

I think you're right. They have to show a little teeth here in some level, even if they... So the argument on the ground, and I believe this, I believe that tens of thousands of creative jobs are going to go away. I think there's going to be a scream

let out by the creative community that they don't even know what happened to them if this merger goes through because I think the only way to justify $112 billion acquisition price is to find quote unquote efficiencies through AI. And they're going to move harder at this than anyone despite their commitment to produce more movies or what have you. The problem is, is that the argument that there's too much concentration is like, well, folks, we're trying to

compete with the people you say are too powerful. Yeah. Yeah. And that if you don't let us merge, all you're doing is strengthening numbers one, two, and three. Right. Yeah. I think that's what I'll ask you. I just got a note from someone at Paramount. It said it's a silly and laughable market definition. That's their answer, I guess. I don't think, I think this gets swatted away. But at the same time, there's such a huge ticking fee of like a half a billion dollars a month if this thing continues to go on. Yeah, starting September 30th. That they have leverage.

They may be able to extract something. Yeah, especially if Britain also does it. It'll definitely slow them down. I think it's going to close. I'm not sure what, you know, we'll see where it goes. But they definitely have, they've dirtied up Paramount quite a bit with actors, talent, and I think the general public, and I don't think the CBS stuff has helped. I think it's a minor part of it, but it's gotten an outsized attention.

And I think they really, I think they may, and having the dinner with Trump thing wasn't a good look, you know, bringing reporters there. I've told them this. But we'll see, which is where it goes, and we'll see what Bonta says. I'll also note, I extend an offer for an interview with Paramount's counsel. Okay, Scott, now get out of here. I'm going to talk to California, AG, Rob Bonta. California Attorney General, Rob Bontett, is with me now. He's in the middle of quite a busy day, Rob. How's it going? A good busy day. It's going well. We filed our lawsuit today and we're excited.

Yeah, so nice backdrop. You did it in front of the Hollywood sign. I just want to know how you thought of. It's very well coordinated online. You've got a lot of all the other AGs. You've got a number of senators, et cetera, sort of talking it up. Talk a little bit about why you were positioning it. Yeah, I mean, we have lined up and synchronized the different attorneys general to talk about the lawsuit that we're collectively bringing. There's 12 of us in California plus 11 others. Some of the other statements that you're seen from, you know, Senator Murphy, Senator Warren, that's just organic. We haven't spoken to them. They're watching this issue and they have a viewpoint and they're expressing it. And we appreciate the support that they're showing. We're focused on the law and the facts here. And this proposed merger between Paramount Warner Brothers violates second. Section 7 of the Clayton Act. And we think that the market concentration and the three markets that we've named, it's presumptively unlawful. Distribution. Yeah, right. Yeah, distribution of wide release films and also of blockbusters and then licensing of cable channels. So we think we've got three clear markets where they violate the law. So let's talk about the goals here, because it's much narrower. You could have gone a lot of different directions here in this lawsuit. It's quite narrow, actually. But what do you hope to get out of this lawsuit and how did it come to this?

What's the goal? The goal, based on the lawsuit, is to block the merger. If there is some sort of discussion that happens, then, you know, we're not inviting it or shutting the door on it. It's up to Paramount or Warner Brothers, whether they want it. We will always engage in good faith. We will listen. But we've expressed our concerns very clearly. Chapter and verse in nearly 40-page complaint, which talks about the markets and talks

about the impacts of the market concentration and how audiences will be harmed and workers will be harmed and quality will erode and output will decline. And we think we set it forth. And if they have something that they want to recommend or suggest to address our concerns, we will listen. But right now, we're asking to block the merger. We're asking them to agree to not close the merger, consummate the merger while we're in litigation. If they don't agree, we're going to file a temporary restraining order. And we think we'll get it. You haven't done that yet for people to understand if they don't agree to slow it down, correct? Is that correct? Correct. But we need an answer from them today, and if they don't agree today, we're filing later today. It doesn't sound like

they're going to agree today. That's my impression. They've released a statement. They're also talking to people. Say I'm pretend that I'm Macon Delraheim, their general counsel. Let me say what they said on the record. Paramount fired back saying in a statement, the practical effect of this lawsuit is to shield those dominant streaming platforms like Netflix and technology companies from much-needed competition. Obviously, Netflix, you were noting Disney in here and Sony and Universal, Netflix and others are not in this. There's no mention of them. Explain why, answer what he's saying right here. He's talking about something that's not part of the lawsuit. He's talking about the streaming markets. We haven't brought a lawsuit based on the streaming markets. I know that's where

they think they can win the PR battle, but that has nothing to do with the, the lawsuit and the legal case that we've brought. We consider, as you mentioned, these are highly diversified companies. We considered multiple markets before deciding on the three that we've challenged. And he is trying to rebut something we're not even saying. We haven't challenged the streaming markets. But I think they like that, you know, the worse smaller than Netflix.

Netflix is the bad guy here. Don't look at us. I think they like the deflection in that. And I understand that from a PR perspective. but they are completely missing the mark from a legal perspective and a factual perspective. Should you have included Netflix in here? Let's just address it because one, I mean,

one of the reactions I got was it's a silly and laughable market definition. Why aren't they included? Because, I mean, we looked at streaming and we looked at the impacts and we thought we had a better case with the three markets that we chose. And so, you know, when we bring a case,

we sort of try to envision all the aspects of it, going to court within a, expert, the likely defenses and rebuttals from the defendants, you know, what the, you know, what the HHS, the index on market concentration shows, you know, how it measures up under, you know, U.S. versus Philadelphia and the market share. That's an appropriate way to look at it. And we did that and landed with the three markets that we've, that we set forth in the complaint. Even if you can imagine that all these markets are now merged with each other, I think that's where they're going. It's all the same thing, essentially. And you were saying it is not all the

same thing, in other words. I think even Hollywood and the entertainment industry don't think they're all the same thing. I think they treat blockbusters differently than wide release films. You know, wide release films are different than, you know, select release or different than streaming. They're different. You know, I think some people, maybe some people see overlap. Maybe some people see some similarities, but the market definition, as you know, is very important in these cases. It is, right. We think we think we've landed on three very clear markets where antitrust laws being violated, and we think they'll hold up to scrutiny. So what you have to do is you have to prove the likelihood to succeed in its merits to get an injunction, a temporary restraining order,

essentially. Right. How, where, it goes to the Northern California court. Are you, you, Do you feel you have the likelihood to see the merits with this more narrow group of issues you're bringing up? Yeah. You know, we think this case is very strong. We think that just like NextArtegna, you know, we went in, we saw it, and secured, received a preliminary injunction, basically based on the market concentration, the percentage. Right. You can either get a preliminary injunction or a TRO, correct.

That's correct. Right. And I think we'll probably file them both at the same time, but we want immediate relief, immediate block. of the merger. And we think that with these three markets as defined, we think they're appropriate markets to define as we've defined them, and we think, you know, based on the index that courts rely on for market concentration, they are already presumptively illegal. So we think we have a very good chance of securing. And some lawyers, there's some reporting lawyers of the Justice Department felt that too, correct, on some of this stuff. Yes. But there are other jurisdictions that aren't

that much under the sway of this particular company. How do you look at theirs sort of passing, like a lot of these countries that pass on it, not Britain, but others have, others across the world have. I think it's appropriate for each regulator within their jurisdiction and, you know, their geographic market to consider the impacts. And their geographic market is different than ours. Maybe the product market is is similar, but ours is different. And so this suggestion, I think, that Paramount Warner Brothers, and they try to advance this in their statement today, is that, hey, all these other regulators approved us, what gives here? Well, it's a different market with different impacts to different analysis. So what the fuck? What the fuck, Rob. So when you think about the response,

not what do you want, but there was some talk that you wanted Paramount to divest CNN. that you said that and then you'd bless the deal. You've denied these reports. But what do you think of the idea? I never said that. Speaking for a friend. Speaking for a friend. Yeah, I'm teasing.

Yeah. I never said that. And it was interesting that that was reported. You know, it's come to a place in this, you know, I guess it's high stakes. There's a lot of pressure. There's a lot of, you know, gossip, just straight out lies that are being advanced. And maybe that's part of a PR campaign. Maybe it's people, you know, just want to be part of something that they don't.

have inside knowledge on. But, you know, that definitely could be part of a, of an outcome here. I would say perhaps it could be necessary, but it wouldn't be sufficient. Because you're talking about theaters, right? Because theaters is not CNN. Yeah, I mean, it's not CNN at all. And so, you know, when you get into a settlement discussion, should that ever happened here. You can be creative. There can be different aspects and components to it. But we're looking right now just at the litigation and the market says we've defined them. Now, there's also a report, as you know, and I know you addressed it in front of the Hollywood sign that David Allison is considering moving Paramount's headquarters to, and allocating the company's

$30 billion in plan spending, if reallocating, if the lawsuit goes through. Personally, I don't believe, I think I take any under on this one, but how do you respond to that? Do you believe that could happen? Are you worried about it? I mean, it feels like a potential monopolist trying to bully a state that is doing its job to regulate them. And it feels like a last-ditch, desperate effort to try to blackmail California and 11 other states into not enforcing antitrust law into allowing an illegal proposed merger to go through. And that's not going to happen. It didn't work. We're not doing that.

We have filed our complaint in court and I think they're on overdrive on their PR and what they're trying to suggest. And the statement that you were reading from, it feels like 1984 up is down, black is white, this is great for workers. Listen to the workers. What are they saying?

They're saying this is terrible for workers. But I guess we should listen to David Ellison and Paramount Warner Brothers and believe that it's good for workers and good for competition. They say it's good. for all the things it's bad for. It's bad for workers. It's bad for prices. It's bad for audiences. It's bad for content creativity. There's certainly a lot of Hollywood people that are not for this thing. They weren't

for the Netflix thing either, by the even more so, I would say. But where did you, the workers were the ones you had been hearing from the most? Who would you been hearing from the most in those groups? The distributors, the theaters, the actors, directors, writers. Was there one that had more weight than others? No, but their collective voice was so strong. so unanimous. We talked to writers, we talk to producers, we talk to directors, we talk to the crew, you know, Ayatzi. I attended hearings. I, you know, and I honestly, I was inspired by the courage of actors who stood to lose a lot and people who work in this space who could be punished, blacklisted, who could be prevented from having a job. And they, they spoke on principle

with courage and conviction. And that meant a lot to me. I didn't really, I didn't really, really hear from anyone who thought the deal was good for the entertainment industry except for David Ellison and Paramount and Warner Brothers. Those who are stakeholders who would be affected? To be fair, there are some studio people that are like, look, it's getting hard against the tech people and the bigger, stronger series of studios might be better to hold up in the current environment. There are people who do say that. That hasn't been strongly expressed to us, but I accept that there's some outside of Paramount Warner Brothers who support the merger.

Two more things. This is 12 states are all Democratic states. Some people think it's a long put you're doing here. At the same time, others say, this is what Scott Gallow was saying. It's a good that you're pointing this out, that you're bringing it up, that you're punching back in some fashion. Do you think it's, should you have tried to get more a Republican, a GOP-led Attorney General, You don't want it to look like a Democratic attack necessarily, but it's also a sign of things to come in the upcoming months, especially if the Republicans lose the House, to control the House. The door's not closed on additional states joining Democratic or Republican. And I was grateful that Arctic and Master Live Nation case was very much bipartisan. Our next Artegna case is bipartisan. This one could be, maybe should be. I think you have to ask the Republican states why they, why they,

joined Ticket Master Live Nation or the ones that joined NextArtegna are feeling they shouldn't join this one. On just law and facts, I don't think there's a principal legal or factual reason not to. So I don't know why they wouldn't. And so maybe they're just waiting. Maybe they don't want to be first through the door, but maybe we'll join later. That happened in NextArtegna, you know, the states that we started with on the filing date, it grew from then. And this should be nonpartisan, bipartisan, whatever you want to call. This is just making sure that the markets are free and fair are not rigged.

and that there's competition. Yeah, maybe Arkansas wants to become Hollywood. I don't know, in some fashion. But they are big states, by the way. New York's in there, too. Yes. You got to always take notice of New York and California and some really important states. You have.

I think they didn't think Washington State was going to join. That's my impression. But they did. In fact, they did. All right. Of course, one of the things are raising is you want to be governor in California. You need to do this. Would you address that issue that you, this is good for you.

for Rob Bonda himself to sort of punch it, not just the Ellison's, but the trumpet minutes. You know, they have the links. They've been having a lot of dinner together. Can you address that, please? Sure. This is good for the law. It's good for the rule of law.

It's good for competition. It's good for consumers who are screaming that affordability is their biggest challenge and they don't want prices to go up at movie theaters or on their cable bills. This is a bread and butter issue about how our, markets are supposed to work. They're supposed to be free, fair with competition. Prices are supposed to

stay reasonable. Choice is supposed to stay high and competition high, quality high. And so maybe those things are good for me personally. Maybe they're bad for me personally. I have no idea, but I'm doing what I think is right. I'm doing it based on principle, based on the law, based on the facts. And I am not running for governor. I am running for your election as California Attorney General. I'd be honored if my bosses, the voters of California, voted for me. but maybe some of them will hate this action. Maybe some will love it and maybe some will be in between. I have no idea.

But I'm doing it because it's the right thing to do, not based on any political outcome or consequence from it. Okay. All right. Thank you so much, California Attorney General Bont. I really appreciate it. And I'll be watching to see what happens next in the next 24 hours, I guess. All right. Thanks, Rob. Bye.

My pleasure. Thanks, Kara. All right. One more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails. The New York Times is a newspaper, which makes articles that you can read. But the Times is also trying, again, to become a video company. Why? Here's Joe Khan, the Times top editor.

I think we were in a race against time to make sure that good quality journalism competes with AI-generated slop and influencer non-original journalism out there on the internet. I'm Peter Kafka, the host of channels that show about what happens when media and technology collide. You can hear my conversation with Times executive editor Joe Kahn right now, wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Okay, Scott, welcome back. Let's hear some wins and fails. You go first. When I was in Miami and at the Hard Rock Stadium watching Team England play Norway, and Norwegian fans started singing, with the English fans, Sweet Caroline, and then English fans started doing that rowing motion,

it just gave me so much hope I was so desperate for. I just, when you hear 70,000 people who come together, like kids who love each other, but their parents have been arguing, it just, that collective humanity and the athleticism, I really do believe that the World Cup has tapped into this need to remind each other that we have more that we share than differences. I just, that was such a, you know, I've been to,

I don't care about sports, and then every four years I get really into it because my kids are into it. I took my son to Moscow in St. Petersburg eight years ago. We went to Qatar four years ago. This is by far the best, because this is the encapsulation of something wonderful. And that wonderful thing is that people around the world

feel, especially in the West and in democracies, feel a sense of camaraderie and comitly of man. And our leaders have been getting in the way of that, and they've been dividing us, and we're actually not that divided. We're being divided. And that game just reminded me of it. And it just... It is a contrast to the political stuff, because the minute Lindsay Graham died, Trump was, like,

taken advantage of it. Like, it's so gross. Like, you know what I mean? Like, it's such a contrast. Well, you know what's made this World Cup great, quite frankly? Is none of these leaders or any... We're fucking near it. That's right.

Thank you for staying out of it. Yeah. Thank you for staying out of it. Just don't poison it. And in the moment that Trump did enter it, it kind of fucked everything up for the American team, in my opinion. Anyways, that's my one. My fail is a little bit, I've thought a lot about this,

and I really want to get your viewpoint, including if it's pushback. When I was a UCLA, I didn't think I knew a gay person. And what I found out, I was at a UCLA at a pivotal time for gay rights or society as it relates to how it feels about the gay community. And that is, within two years of graduating, I found out not only did I know gay people,

but my roommates, my best friend, and several of my fraternity brothers were gay. And the reality was from 1982 to 1987 at UCLA, and in America, you were not allowed to be gay. You were not. You just, and those of us who are heterosexual, never really, and still don't understand the shame that America was putting on gay people.

And I know you felt that. And I definitely did. And you can relate to this. And then the way we treated people who got this plague, the shame, the shameful way that we treated this community when they were at there, you know, these young men, mostly young men who were at their most vulnerable. And so I empathize with men,

and I haven't walked in those shoes that were closeted. But the reality is I think Senator Graham deserves to be lauded for his, service, his ability to get deals done, he was well liked, but I don't think his legacy is going to be kind. No, I don't either. And this is where I go with this. And I'm really, like, reticent to talk about this way, because I do believe you need to err on

the side of positive and grace when someone passes. But my belief is that Senator Graham's hypocrisy will be his legacy. And as hypocrisy isn't about being gay, it's quietly benefiting from the courage of people who risk everything to secure equal rights and then turning around and arguing those rights should be denied to others, which he consistently did.

And then affiliating with people who were pulling it, and affiliating the people who are pulling those rights. And you can relate to this because you are one of the people here. Every freedom the LGBTQ community enjoys today and that Senator Graham enjoyed was because someone, else paid the price. I would agree. People lost jobs, were rejected by their families, you were turned away by our security apparatus, they were arrested, they were beaten, they were ostracized,

and in some cases, people were killed for the simple act of living honestly. And they accepted those risks such that the next generation wouldn't have to endure that bullshit. And to enjoy the protection, their courage created, while publicly undermining it isn't just inconsistent. I would agree. It's a profound failure of gratitude and an integrity. What it says is at the end of the day, it says, I deserve these freedoms, but people like me don't. Right. Let me tell you, back in those days, it was a closet very much. I saw Graham at gay bars. I did when I was young. He was with another congressman very frequently. And nobody said anything at the time. Like, everyone knew who he was. There were a lot of people like that. It wasn't just him, especially in the Reagan administration. There were a bunch of gays who. were doing anti-gay things. I was on the fence about outing people back then, back in the day. And the only time I would say when they were doing things that were specifically anti-gay, that was okay. Otherwise, kind of a live-and-let-live kind of person. That said, by this year,

in the year of our Lord, 20, it was fucking ridiculous. And he was, he was affiliating with people who were hurting gay people. And I would agree with you. He could have been a hero. He could have been a hero. And he just was, he was shamed of himself. from what I can see. And I had heard about it, of course, as most gay people, sort of, there's sort of a whisper kind of thing that happens with gay people. But it was enough. It was absolutely fucking enough the way he was. I think more to the point was sort of this remora fish personality he had. And people, you know, he was close to John McCain and then he turned, and very kind, very close to Biden's and then completely turned on them just to attach himself to a

stronger man, which in this case was Trump. And that may have been a real conversion by him, but he was constantly pretzling himself and really uncomfortable. And I hate to say, unnatural acts all the time. And I thought it was pretty gross. And I think he could have been a great one, especially the stuff he said about Trump initially, was just like J.D. Bans was absolutely accurate. But he decided power was more important than principles. There's a lot of people who haven't acquitted themselves well in order to be close to the flame of power. Yeah, I get it.

What I think this goes deeper, and that is, I think a person's character should be measured by their willingness to bear the cost of their convictions, otherwise they're just opinions. Yeah. And when you ask, as Senator Graham did, others to carry that burden while hiding behind the rights they won for you, you've outsourced courage and privatized the benefits. In history of members, the people who stood up when it was dangerous, not those who waited until it was safe and then tried to pull up the ladder behind it. Including stray people who went on.

Like, I'll never have a news because of what he did around marriage. I'm sorry. He took a stand that was hurtful, that hurt him badly at that time. And so, yes, things cost things, and he did not pay any prices, and he was constantly angling for power. And the reason he was closeted is so he could be more powerful, right? So it all had to do with his desperate need for power. And it is a bad legacy for someone who you had a sense could have been greater, right?

Anyway, you're right. I think there's nothing controversial of what you're saying. Look, I think his legacy is the following. The cruelest, the cruelest part about this is not just betraying yourself. You're betraying the people who absorb the blows so you could live a safer life, which he did, and then paid the price. He collected the dividend and then voted to cut it off for the next generation. And some, he was cashing checks that other people wrote. And I think that's his legacy. And it's a terrible thing to say after he has been deceased. but I know so many people, including yourself, who paid a real cost, there was. Such a younger people could enjoy the rights. They so much enjoy. And not only that, the Republican Party's come a long way on this.

Yep, I agree. And he was not only not an ally, he picked up the gun and fired it, you know, at his own troops. Yeah, I would agree. I would agree. And enjoyed the, you know, the, you know, the, closet in a subbed. It was gross. I agree with you. That's a very good one. I am going to do a win, which is, you know, you're talking about going to the game. I was joking. I didn't want to go

your game because I was actually with my son Louis and we hiked all around San Francisco. And I have to tell you, I think we hiked on this beautiful Sutro Open Reserve and just had the one most wonderful long hike all day long is this idea of people and you're seeing it more and more getting out of the whole noise. IRL. And it's not like, we talked about politics. We didn't like, I don't want to talk about politics. It was, we talked about everything.

And it was such a delight. I have to say, I kept saying to myself, I have to stop like being eternally online in a physical way. And I don't mean, because we talked about lots of issues. So I just feel like IRL is the next, is really a trend. I thought first it was like a fake trend, but it really isn't. It's really something I,

people are very much longing for in a way that's really quite, I think it's really significant going forward, including going to the movie theater. I've had some really great times recently going to the movie theater. I went to see, by the way, I went to see the Moana Live, which didn't, you know, didn't do well, but I got to tell you, it was charming and totally enjoyable to go to, I've gone to so many movies lately and so of all my kids, which is really interesting. And I really encourage that, this IRL stuff in whatever form it takes. I think fail is, um, I think fail is, um, the failure of what you were talking about is the fact that people look at that picture of Mitch McConnell and think this is fake, that that's where we are.

Nobody's telling the truth. They're creating when they could fix it very easily and act with ethics and honor. It goes to what you're saying about Lindsay Graham and everything else, is that we are now convinced they're lying as the beginning, not at the end. And that's, it was troubling. like, oh, those memes were so mean. I was like, oh, come on. Like, come on. That's the world now. And I don't mind those as much as the fact that nobody really good people don't believe things now, right? There's always a group of people that are going to be conspiracy theorists and kind of nutty. But really

normal people are like, is this real? Why can't they just do the right thing and like show up in a video? Like show up, like come out physically, like speaking of IRL, just wheel the old man out and look at He shouldn't be in office, but why not do that? And all this fakerie is such like, or pretending that Trump's not sleeping. He's sleeping, everybody. That's what he's doing. Like, I just, it creates this sort of disbelief in our system that it's really starting to get really irritating on many levels.

Anyway, that's my thing. And I think that picture is suss. Sorry, I agree with you, Scott. It's very suss. It's a suss picture, even if it's partially real. We want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind. go to NYMag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 85551 Pivot.

Elsewhere in the Karen Scott, you know, Scott. You talked a few weeks about how much you admire Bill Maher. Did you know you got a shout out on his club random podcast? You came up while he was interviewing actress Bo Derek, of all things. Let's listen. Who was it? It was on your show, I think, Galloway. Yes, Scott Galloway. I think he was talking about the bullshit of do what you. you love and you'll never work a day in your life? No, do what you're good at. And then you'll make a good living and you can do what you want. I did not know that. Seriously, I didn't

know that she, can we just pause that Bo Derek is thinking about me? Yeah, she is. But she saw Emily Radikowski got a big book deal. I saw that. And by the way, I heard an excerpt from her book on the New York Magazine website and it's well-written. She's beautiful. Her first book was I interviewed her because the book was well-written. Yeah, I was. I was. Really? I was like, see, this woman knows how to write? Yeah, I know. There it is. There it is. Anyway, Bo Derek, good to know. All right. That's all I have for you, Scott. Thank you for that.

That's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot. Be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday. Today's show was produced by Larry Namensowing, Marcus Taylor Griffin, and Todd Wiseman. Ernie Intert engineered the episode. Thanks also to Dubros, Ms. Savira, Dan Chalon, and Kate Gallagher. And the shot Kroa is Vox Media, as executive producer of podcasts. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot and Box Media. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things, tech and business. Kara, it is coming home.

Jude Bellingham, Harry Kane. This is our tournament, Kara. Go England.