Pivot - Balloon-Gate, The AI Arms Race, and Guest Jerry Saltz

Episode Date: February 7, 2023

Kara and Scott discuss Google's newest effort to compete with ChatGPT, the Koch network's anti-Trump efforts, and the latest on Elon Musk’s many legal battles. Plus, of course, the fallout from the Chinese balloon. Then, they’re joined by Friend of Pivot, Jerry Saltz to discuss the state of art world. You can find Jerry on Twitter at @jerrysaltz and can get his book here. Send us your questions! Call 855-51-PIVOT or go to nymag.com/pivot. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Just go to Indeed.com slash podcast right now and say you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash podcast Kara Swisher and I am in Scott's apartment and found him here. He was not supposed to be here and I walked in this morning and there he was. Hello. Okay, so there's constantly strangers in my apartment. I'm down with that. We know about that part. Hugh Grant, but go ahead.

When I close the door to my bedroom, that's like my inner sanctum and no one ever touches the door. And I'm in there and all of a sudden, I'm on the phone with the CEO of Solonis, right? Talking about a debt or a credit facility, like fairly non-important, important conversation. And I hear, bam, bam, bam. And I opened the door and the first words that the CEO of Solonis and I heard were, do you want a penis-shaped candle?

Yeah, I was going to get you one at the MoMA store. I have some penis candles that I have, and I wanted to know if you wanted any. And we sat there for a few minutes examining these penis-shaped candles, and I thought, you know what? shaped candles. And I thought, you know what? As comfortable as I am with my heterosexuality and that people, a lot of people question my heterosexuality, which is fine. I just don't need at this point in my life to have a bunch of candles. I'm trying to buy you, I stay in your house. I would like to buy you a gift. And I thought that would be appropriate. I appreciate that. I thought that would be appropriate for your New York digs. What were you doing here? I walked in. Why are you here again?

I asked you months ago. Like, literally, you forget. I walk in and it's so, I was like, is Scott here? Because there were like empty champagne glasses. There was snipped tags from overly priced t-shirt places. You know, like the real soft ones you get in Soho. And just a sense of Scott. And it just was Scott.

There was Scott here. And I was like, is Scott here? So we're going to hang out tonight. We're going to go on Stephanie Rule tonight. We're going to get some pierogies at Veselka. You're not going to come to my theatrical thing that I'm taking. I don't like culture. I like to drink.

I like pierogies and alcohol. Culture, not so much. It's less tastic. I thought you might like it. It's called Fox Seventh Grade by my friend Jill Sobule. I'm taking Georgeies and alcohol. Culture, not so much. It's less-tastic. I thought you might like it. It's called Fox Seventh Grade by my friend Jill Sobule. I'm taking George Hahn and Stephanie. That'll be really nice. Yeah, you'll meet us, okay?

Yeah, I'm excited. Anyways, welcome to New York. Thank you. I'm glad you're here. I'm very excited that we're rooming again. We're roomies. Roomies. We are.

Do you like being roomies? We spent a lot of time together this week. Lately, yeah. Lately. It's nice. We never get sick of each other. It's another weird wrinkle in our... Not yet. It's odd. How are you together this week. Lately, yeah. Lately. It's nice. We never get sick of each other. It's another weird wrinkle in our... Not sure. Not sure. It's odd. How are you doing this week? You were in Miami and now you came up here? Yeah, I was in Miami. I had a wonderful time. And

then Saturday it started raining and getting very windy in Miami. And I find that Miami loses about 110% of its charm when it's not nice out. Fair weather friend. You're a fair weather friend. Are you like this? When I decide to leave the city, for me, it's like a prison break. And I'm on the phone with my sister. I'm like, get me a boarding pass. I'm on my way to the airport. Poor Mary Jean. She's like, hears me Saturday morning. I'm on my way to the airport. Get me a boarding pass on the next flight. Whenever I decide I need out of a city, I need out. No, I'm not like that in any way. I have like 90 people attached to me at all times. So I can't do that. I'm a rolling stone.

I'm not a rolling stone. I can't roll anywhere. I roll very, I have to plan everything. Like it's like the invasion of some small country. Oops, I shouldn't make that joke. But it was, I have to very plan things. Even yesterday, I took off the day to work on my book and I had to plan it.

And Amanda was wonderful. We had a babysitter, et cetera, et cetera. I had to get up with the kids very early so she could sleep a little bit. So everything is planned in my life. Yeah, not me. I raided the cupboards for edibles, and I went to Jack's Wife Rita for some matzo ball soup. We could have had more different days. Yeah, I saw that too. I saw that too. I know it's true. And I came back, and I drank champagne on my own, which is kind of pathetic and lovely at the same time. It's lovely. Well, tonight you have me and everybody else. I'm bringing a whole crew with me, including my sister-in-law, Pat.

She's going to be here too. I'm excited to meet the sister-in-law. This is the coal miner's wife, right? She's great. You will love her. The coal miner's wife. Yes, you will love her. She's a trip.

She speaks French fluently. She'll speak French for us for no good reason. How's that? We're all going to go to Stephanie's too. We're having a crew. Wait, let me get this. I'm missing a play about lesbians and a woman who speaks French for no reason. God, I hate to miss out on this interesting experience. Yes,

no, she's a French teacher. This is a great show. This is a great show. It's called, it is a great show. You would love it. It's Les-tastic. George Hahn is excited, so I don't even need you. Anyway, we have a lot to talk about today.

There's so much news. That's one thing you said when I walked in. We'll talk about the fallout from that Chinese spy balloon and why Elon Musk thinks Twitter is on its way to breaking even. We'll also speak with New York Magazine senior art critic, Jerry Saltz,

about how social media affects creators. He writes a lot about this. He is one of my favorite writers on art, but he also is very attuned to digital issues. He's great. He's a fun guy. And he's a big fan of Scott Galloway. I knew I liked him. I know.

Well, let's get on to tech news. Google says it will make AI-based language models available in coming weeks and months. They've had it in the drawer for a while. They've just been slow off the mark. The company is testing a chatbot called Apprentice Bard. Yes, that is what it's called. Apprentice Bard? Which has the advantage over ChatGPT because it can talk about current events. ChatGPT has a limited knowledge of world events after 2021. In March, China's largest search engine, Baidu, plans to release a chatbot of its own. This is like, this is commodity time.

And by the way, Google has the most of this thing. But Apprentice Bard, what would you call your chatbot if you were releasing it? My chatbot? Yeah, Terminator would be my choice. I'd call it ID. ID? That'd be a good one. ID.

That's good. I like that. Right? I ran a brand strategy firm for a decade called Profit. And the hardest thing in branding, I've always found, is naming, because every good name is taken. I've always found naming is just a nightmare. It is good. I would call it Barbara. Barbara?

Yeah, just Barbara. I always liked that name. Remember Bob? Microsoft had something like this called Bob. Microsoft Bob. That's what Microsoft should call something like this called Bob. Microsoft Bob. That's what Microsoft should call it, Bob. Bring back Microsoft Bob. Do you remember that? That was a helper. That would be so funny.

They don't have a sense of humor like that. You know who worked on Bob? I believe Melinda Gates worked on that. Or maybe she worked on Clippy. One of them she worked on. Yeah. Remember Clippy? The jumping Clippy?

I don't remember that. No, that sounds like you and Walt thing. I don't know. That's my old life. That's my old life. That's your old partner. That's my old partner who did not sit around drinking champagne by himself. That's the more credible, intelligent guy who had neither erectile dysfunction or a substance abuse problem. I sit alone with no lights on. The cigarette. Okay, back to AI.

Even I got to bring us back. You don't like my Carly Simon song? So, have you been using chatbot.tv? I try it. I just find it the stunt, just like Oculus. It's fine. Yes, it's good. It's good.

Oh, no. This is. No, you love it. I know a lot of people love it. Neil Cotill wrote a speech. Oculus is chicken shit. This is chicken salad. I have, I spent the better part of the weekend, you know, asking ChatGPT for all kinds of things.

And like you, I'm writing a book. I mean, you're writing a book. It's a fantastic resource. And it's just, you know, I'm a glass half empty kind of guy. I hate every new technology. The last technology I was really excited about was voice. I thought Web3. I thought every new technology. The last technology I was really excited about was voice. I thought Web3. I thought VR, AR. I've just always thought, I've always just like rolled my eyes. And this is pretty, your mind goes a lot of different places around what you could do with

this. The thing that's interesting about this news is literally overnight, there's about to be some formidable competitors. I would imagine that Amazon is going to announce something to do with AI and Alexa very soon. Oh, yeah. They've all had this stuff. I do think it's... What did you do with your things? Because I do... I have... What it's being talked about being used for is not what I think it's going to be used for. I think there's significant things it should be used for. But all this like silliness is silly to me. But what did you use it for? I'm writing a book called The Algebra of Wealth Strategies. So you're plagiarizing a book. But go ahead. What are you doing? You are feisty.

I am feisty. Literally. You're like, you're the kind of person that bangs on your door and offers you penis-shaped candles. I'm like, that has never happened to me before. A lot of shit has gone down in this apartment, but never. I thought you could use it. You know what I mean, if you know what I mean. Well, thanks for that. I have to pay for that. There is, I'm writing a book on trying to achieve economic security.

I'll ask ChatGPT, what are the historical returns of junk bonds? Or what? Oh, okay, yeah. Research. What is the balance? What is the optimal portfolio diversification? Or what is, you know, returns in a certain asset class? Oh, okay, yeah. Research. The first five would be ads from Fidelity trying to get me to invest in their 401k or whatever. And I'd finally get to an article that made sense. And then I'd have to read through the article.

Yep. Yep. You're right. No, search is broken. Search is broken. And ChatGPT just says, and let me be clear, it gets it wrong a lot. Well, that's my problem. But go ahead.

It does get it wrong. But it gives you, it says, you know what? We're going to do our best to give you the answer. And I really appreciate that. It is definitely an existential threat to Google. And then the other thing I would comment I would make about it is that I think chat GPT or AI is actually going to commoditize pretty quickly because AI can reverse engineer AI. It just feels to me that it can pretty much figure out what the other chatbot is doing pretty quickly. Yep, yep, yep, yep. And there's only so much information, right?

It's not infinite. It's not infinite. But I think Google, if they were more dynamic as a company, could run away with this, because they have the most, but they've already called it apprentice bard, so I know where it's all going. I mean, literally, they sat in a room and went, apprentice bard. Yes, yes. I know where it's all going. I mean, literally, they sat in a room and went, apprentice bard. Yes, yes. But I think it's a commodity. It's, again, and we said this on the last show, but I think it bears repeating. It is the most classic innovator's dilemma with Google.

And their incentives, they have a $150 billion business on not giving you the best answer, but giving you a bunch of answers. Yes, but they have not innovated in years. It looks the same. But that's my point. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. They have a legacy business they want to protect. And so when someone says, I think we can come up with, rather than giving people 100 answers that are between 30 and 70% accurate, I think we can give them one answer that's 80% accurate. They're like, boss,

do you understand our business model? Well, you know people have said that internally, right? You know that's happened. Like, a lot of people get frustrated and leave there because they want to do exciting things with all the power. And they did buy the most AI firepower in terms of people, in terms of companies like DeepMind and others. They have everything in place. They just need to, you know, it's sort of like when Facebook pulled the trigger on mobile, right? They just had to pull the trigger on these things and moved over from the desktop experience.

And search is the one thing that hasn't innovated, and it's largely because of so few competitors. And now they have a different kind of thing that's like it. I think it's just souped up search in some fashion. It's a similar thing, but it certainly gives you, my issue is like, is it accurate? Where's it from? And I wouldn't use it for a book writing, but for factoids, sure, like you were talking about, yes.

But to write, I think it was Neil Kachal was writing a speech. I guess if you want to have a shitty speech, you could do it, that kind of thing. Oh, it gives you kind of generic, blah, non-differentiating things guess if you want to have a shitty speech, you could do it. That kind of thing. Oh, it gives you kind of generic, blah, non-differentiating things. But you know what you can do is, have you tried this? I tried this because I'm a narcissist. Write a one-page summary of monopoly abuse by Amazon in the style of Scott Galloway. It spits back a page with a few like stupid jokes. I guess that's the style

of Scott Galloway. They didn't get me at all. They didn't get me at all. Chat GPT doesn't get me. But I mean, your mind goes, I mean, this is where my mind goes. It's like, okay, I've always thought about, I would love to create an online library of videos or voiceover of explaining economic terms or talking about companies or markets. And you could ask all of these customers to chat GPT, edit it to make it tighter, and then run it through another AI application that does a voiceover on it, then run it through another one that creates a video.

There's a lot of that going on. That's former founder, Groupon has something, I can't remember what it's called. He has one that does that with audio and video. Yeah, it's an interesting time. It's an interesting time. It definitely is.

I just, a lot of people are going to be writing books with GPT as a stunt, and that I don't appreciate. No, I don't think you use it to write the book. I think you use it to find data. It's a quick way to getting to, you know, what, like I found out last night that the average return since the Dow was, the inception of the Dow on an inflation-adjusted basis has been somewhere between 4% and 5%. If that's accurate. Where's the research from? That's the thing. Where do you get it from? Well, that's the thing.

Sridhar Ramaswamy, who started a search engine, Neva, is now pivoting to AI search that has references. Good. Well, of course, because he's very smart. You can see where the sources are. But where I was headed with this was that the thing that strikes me about this, and I would have saved this for a prediction on Friday, I think Sam Altman is going to be Time's Person of the Year in the next two or three years. Because one, we are fascinated with tech

people, and the wealthiest tech person or the most important ascendant person in tech, Time puts on, says their Person of the Year, because we've decided technologists and innovators are our new Jesus Christ. And he's going to be the man who's going to get a ton of attention. He's a very smart guy. And look at the decisions he's made. When Mark Zuckerberg said,

okay, I got Facebook and someone came in and Microsoft offered him $20 billion. He said, no, this is a standalone company. Sam Altman immediately, immediately paired up. Well, he ran Y Combinator. He's smart. You know, his first company was called Loop. It was a very interesting company, but he got sort of,

he made a little bit of money on it. But I think he really figured it out really soon. He's a really interesting person. He's gay. You're literally like every person I had dinner with in Miami last week. Are you jacked up on cocaine right now? You're interrupting me even more than you usually do. No, no. You keep talking, and I'm trying to get a word in edgewise, but go ahead. I keep talking. But the thing he figured out, and he's super smart, is he said, okay, as awesome as this is, it's going to be commoditized really quickly.

I've got to find an enormous cloud computing company, and I've also got to find data sets and a front end. And it just struck me that he sees the future. I don't think these AI, I think actually the part of the ecosystem that's going to make a shit ton of money that we're not talking about is people who own and can pull together structured and unstructured data sets. And I hate to say it, but the ultimate likely, and we talked about this last week, I think the ultimate unstructured data set that might end up being the great hose or the great resource for artificial intelligence actually might be Twitter. Yeah, we'll see. You're right. Now, once again, Elon will do well. By the way, he's in OpenAI. And of course, may I talk now? Yes, I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

And know him well from the beginning, I might have an insight. Do another rail. Where's the Bolivian marching powder? No, no. Let me just say, you know, if we actually did the minutes, you would like be like two-thirds and me one-third, just so you know. Just FYI. We're going to do that from now on. We'll just show you the situation.

That's only because we need more downloads and awards. No, no. I'm sorry. Go ahead. But if only someone has covered Sam Altman from the beginning of his career and has some insight into him as an entrepreneur. I don't know. Who could that be? I did not know that he was gay.

I must say that. Yes, he's gay. Although he did give me a penis-shaped candle. Oh, my God. He also is a bit of a prepper. He has a place down in Big Sur. He's got gas in case of thepper. He has a place down in Big Sur. He's got gas in case of the apocalypse. He's a funny guy. And he's also, you know, he moved,

he really did pivot from looped to Y Combinator, really invigorated it. Come on. That guy's a baller. That guy is a baller. He's an interesting guy. Big brain. And he manages to keep on good terms with everyone, even if they're not. Good for him. Keeping on good terms. But what he did at Y Combinator I thought was great. Well, let's hope he has 17 kids and buys Twitter. No, he doesn't have any children.

No, he doesn't. In any case, I'm hoping to get him on the other podcast, but he's been very cagey with me. I've done like 12 interviews with this guy over public interviews, and he's been cagey. I don't think he thinks it's good enough yet. That's his excuse. We'll see. We'll see. Yeah, very savvy. Anyways, my sense is he's going to be Times First in a year in the next three years.

This shit is really... Start playing with it, and also go to Dolly and sign up. I have. I have been. I have. I'm bored of Dolly. Crazy. I'm sorry. Really? That's so funny. You're usually more optimistic about these technologies than I am. I am, but I'm just... I think I don't see the point. That's so funny. You're usually more optimistic about these technologies than I am. I am, but I think they're going to be bigger than this bullshit.

Anyway, in politics, let's move on. It's been bullshit. The Koch brothers are looking for a Trump alternative. The Koch network of donors and activists is gearing up for the 2024 presidential primary and reportedly plans to endorse a single candidate by the end of the summer because of the fears that Trump will divide and conquer. The new memo suggests that the influential donor group will try to stop Trump from retaking the White House.

It sort of sat it out in the last go-round. The memo from Americans for Prosperity, which was very extravagantly rolled out to all the political reporters. This is the political arm of the Koch network, did not name Trump explicitly, but says, quote, to write a new chapter for our country, we need to turn the page on the past. They really are back in and they're being rather explicit right across the bow kind of thing.

Who would you pick besides us? Should we put ourselves up as, as you know, we're running for the GOP? For the Republican nomination? We are. You and I are doing that. Well, you know who's actually a formidable candidate is Nikki Haley. And the problem is he can't, I don't think he can go after her the way he can go after DeSantis. No, I think he can.

Oh, you think? Yeah, because he's such an admirer of women. Come on. He's such a misogynist. It's like crazy. This is his favorite thing. She was in his cabinet. They left on good terms.

She's a person of color and a woman. Yay. I think she's a really formidable candidate. She was one of maybe three or four people that managed to get in and out of that whole shit show alive. She tends to, but she tends to flip prop. She like suddenly embraces him and then she insults him. She's a very savvy politician. She's a very savvy politician.

There's that bias of yours coming out. No, it's not my bias. I just find she's very opportunistic. She's very good. No, no, no. There's that bias of yours coming out. No, it's not my bias. I just find she's very opportunistic. She's very good. No, no, no. She's very good. And not only that, I hate to say this, her on a debate stage with Biden. Oh, God, the contrast in age.

Yeah. Oh, God. No, that could be. Anyways, I think she's a formidable candidate. You think they're going to pick her? Who else could they pick? Give me a choice. Well, here's the thing.

The odds-on favorite for the Republican nomination right now, if you look throughout history, is this person called Other. Anyone, anyone. I mean, if you remember Herman Cain, I mean, Rudy Giuliani was supposed to win. Fred Thompson was supposed to win at this point. whoever is in the lead right now or whoever the top one or two candidates, it's usually a Republican governor kind of comes up out of nowhere and captures everyone's imagination. But I don't think it's – Can we do this again? Because early on in the last cycle, you were incorrectly picking, and I was correctly picking. I say it would not be Ron DeSantis.

I don't know. You fell in love with – first it was man-boy Beto, and then it was – Oh, I still like him. Then it was someone – Pete. Then I think you liked Mayor Pete for a while. I like't know. You fell in love with, first it was man boy Beto. And then it was. Oh, I still like him. Then it was someone, Pete. Then I think you liked Mayor Pete for a while. Yeah, I like Mayor Pete. I think Mayor Pete is actually a viable candidate for the Democratic nomination. I don't think Biden's going to run again.

But anyways, we'll see. We'll see. Let's, make your pick right now. I'm picking Glenn Youngkin. I say Glenn Youngkin. Oh, you like Youngkin. That's really interesting. I don't like him.

I think he's. Well, I mean. Okay, you don't like him, right? Well, yeah, but I like him for this. You know't like him. I think he's – Well, I mean, okay, you don't like him, right? Well, yeah, but I like him for this. You know what I mean? I think he's acceptable. Is there a Republican anywhere that you would support? Yeah, lots of them.

Yeah. I like Larry Hogan. Larry Hogan. Larry Hogan. I like – He's not good looking enough to be president. Yeah, that's probably true. We're very Alexis culture.

There's a whole bunch. There's a bunch of governors that I think are okay. I think Mike DeWine is really interesting. I like listening to him. I don't agree on everything, but I think he's an honorable person. There's lots of, you know, I didn't dislike Mitt Romney as much as everybody else. I thought he was very qualified. I think, well, let me ask you this. I don't know about you. I've come to appreciate Mitt Romney more as I see the clown car that is the Republican Party. Yeah. He was just against Obama, so how could you beat that, right? I mean, that was the issue.

No, I think people who know Mitt, I know some people who worked at Bank Capital, and universally, people say he's a really good man. Well, Youngkin's of the same mold, right? Except he's just a little Trumpier. But he feigns it, same thing that Hanley does, which makes me uncomfortable. But they have to, the stage. People are not waiting for Trump. They're like, no, I'm, I'm, I see the opportunity here. It's indicative. It's indicative. He's got weak fundraising. They'll move whoever. I, Youngkin is my pick. You would say who? I don't, other. I don't, anyone you name right now will not likely get the nomination.

The, the more interesting conversation is probably saved for another episode is who will get get the nomination. The more interesting conversation, and it's probably saved for another episode, is who will get the Democratic nomination? Biden. Yeah, I don't know. I don't think he's going to run. All right, we'll go from there. All right, you say Pete, I say Biden.

All right. There was a big story in the New York Times sort of trashing Kamala Harris today, by the way. What did it say about Vice President Harris? Same story they always write. What's that? She's not political enough. She's not done enough.

No vice president does enough. But she keeps not doing enough. That's really it. They do the same story over and over about her. I relate to Vice President Harris because constantly in high school, I'd have a 500-word essay and I'd come up with 300 words. That describes her. words, that describes her. It's like every time I listen to her speak, it sounds like a high school senior turning in a 500-word essay when she only has 200 or 300 words. It's just like someone needs to tell her. She's a prosecutor. Oh, gosh. Well, a lot of people, a lot of criminals are roaming

the streets because she does not make a very compelling closing argument, in my view. I think people don't like, they want inspirationals than prosecutorial. I think she'd have a better shot of being the presidential nominee in Democratic if she hadn't gotten VP. I think VP has been really bad for her brand. Anyways, I think she's been a terrible VP. She should be Supreme Court Justice. That's what I think. No, that's actually a good idea.

It's always been my plot. All right. Let's get to our first big story. Let's get to our first big story. Everyone's being surveilled constantly, but it's always, shoot the balloon and never unplug Alexa. If you care so much about your data, why do you all keep your bank passwords in the notes app? That's SNL's Bowen Yang. He's so funny.

In a skit about the Chinese spy balloon that's transfixed the country this past week. Well, it hasn't transfixed me, but okay. The Navy is working to recover debris from the balloon that a U.S. fighter jet shot down off the coast of South Carolina over the weekend. The balloon first drifted into U.S. airspace over Alaska a little over a week ago, and a short time since it's managed to cross the country, destabilize U.S.-China relations, and stir up political tensions here at home. Republicans think they didn't shoot it down fast enough. Why was it there? But it turns out they've been there before, and Trump didn't shoot them down. Security officials thought it would be safer to wait until the balloon was over water before

shooting it down. I don't know what to say. Blinken postponed a trip to China. China insists the weather balloon drifted off course and called a response, excessive reaction reaction and then didn't do anything. So that means it was a spy balloon. You think, who looks bad here? Is it Biden? I thought he handled it well. I don't know. I don't know. He ordered the balloon shot down midweek, but it was already in Montana. I think you look at it, you assess it, you track it, and then you shoot it down where you can collect it. That seemed safer and better. And so this is a true story. I was coming back when I did my prison break from Miami. I'm flying, and the pilot comes over the intercom, and he says, folks off the right side of the plane, if you look up, you can see the—and he was very careful—the Chinese balloon, he said. He didn't say the spy balloon.

He said the Chinese balloon. And you look up. And you can see this thing. And it's because we were flying over South Carolina. And I didn't know this, but about 22 minutes later, they shot it down. And I pulled out my camera. And I zoomed on it. And you know, on the side of the balloon, it actually had writing.

It said, we're trying to reach you regarding your car's extended warranty. No, but look, back to what you asked. I think, and, you know, raise your hand, and my hand's raised right now, if you underestimated Biden. I think they handled this perfectly. I do, too. The Republicans are going nuts. They weren't reactionary. By the way, there were balloons when Trump was president.

They weren't reactionary. They were measured. And you can bet, they said, okay, the last thing we want to do is have this fall on someone or property or anything. Because these things, when you shoot something down from 60,000 feet, you don't know where it's going to land. They waited. And what was really interesting when I saw it, as soon as I looked up, I then saw two fighter jets. They were F-22 Raptors

tracking the thing. God, I can tell you, I know some pilots. Whoever got that order was so excited. These guys are just so ready. I don't get to do anything. Well, there's some of the most. I've been really fortunate. I actually had a fraternity brother who became a Navy pilot, fighter pilot. These are some of the most – I've met some – I've been really fortunate. I actually had a fraternity brother who became a Navy pilot, fighter pilot. These are some of the most talented, confident people you've ever met. I mean, they're just – they have 140 IQs and are in amazing shape and have, like, freakish hand-eye coordination. I could have shot down that balloon. It was so big.

Come on. Kara Swisher could have. It's actually harder than you think. I doubt it. I could shoot the balloon down. They're literally the definition of put me in coach. They're just ready to play all the time. Anyways, they waited till, I'm sure they planned this out, and they waited till it was barely off coast.

And you can bet our security apparatus and our Navy was ready there, was waiting to grab this thing, figure out what it collected, figure out the technology. And there's a bunch of interesting theories. A lot of military think tanks think that actually China did it on purpose to see what our response would be, to see if air alert systems over Alaska, how robust they were, and that the U.S. Defense Department decided not to react because it didn't want to give the Chinese intelligence on what their defense systems were. Well, the thing is, they were there before. And, of course, now the Republicans are saying, well, they didn't get across Montana before. We don't know.

Like, they don't know. Who knows how long they've been floating around up there? He handled this perfectly. He was measured, brought it down perfectly. Republicans hush it down. They're trying to link it to immigration and balloons. I saw one of them doing that and I was like, oh my God, please stop and do your job. Stop. You're killing me.

But you know, I mean, you know, there's a Chinese spy balloon over every teenager's room in America right now. It's called TikTok. That's right. I'm like, went back on Twitter. I'm a fucking drug addict. You are. What are you doing? I got problems. Stop, stop. You see me? I'm drinking alone, Kara. I'm drinking alone. I'm drinking alone.

I'm going to take it off your phone tonight. I'm taking it off on our way to Stephanie. You're handing me the phone. I'm removing it from your phone. Do you understand? I'm going to. You don't need it. You don't need it.

You don't need it. Oh, my God. I'm drinking champagne alone. That't need it. You don't need it. You don't need it. Oh, my God. I'm drinking champagne alone. That's so pathetic. I have no one to celebrate with. There's nothing more pathetic than the sound of a champagne bottle popping alone. I'm going to hide it.

I'm going to hide Twitter from you. We're going to do a Twittervention, as they say. Anyways, I got several thousand likes on the following tweet. I said, now let's shoot down TikTok. Yeah. Ha, ha, ha, now let's shoot down TikTok. Yeah. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. All right. Now I need to pop your balloon, but keep going. You know who is more bummed about that balloon than anyone?

The CEO of TikTok who now has to testify. I know. It's a whole thing. He's like, oh, fuck. You couldn't have waited a couple weeks? I mean, that is not good timing for him. Trump said we would have shot it down immediately. What an idiot.

Of course you don't shoot it down immediately, you dumbass. You have to warn China you're doing it. It's just the whole thing. So you want a family story? No, okay. This is where you say yes. All right, yes, yes, please. I was thinking, I was feeling very, my dad, you know, my dad's doing okay, but he's 92, he's not doing great.

Yeah, wow. And I was thinking about the, you know, I kept hearing the term balloon. When I was a kid, I used to go downstairs, and my dad on the weekends, like, you know, most men who had a shitty job, was just delightful on weekends. It was during the week he was kind of angry and upset. angry and upset. And I'd go down and he'd be in this bad terrycloth robe. And he'd first put on an album of this guy named Billy Connolly, who was a Scottish comedian. A comedy album. And I remember I couldn't understand that damn thing he was saying, but I was fascinated because my dad just used to roar in laughter, hilarious. And I'm like, you listen to this album every weekend, haven't you gotten the joke by now? And then he'd put on, I don't know if it was the Tijuana Brass,

but do you remember that song, Up, Up and Away on My Beautiful Balloon? My beautiful, my beautiful. Anyways, I don't need to subject anyone. And he danced around, and he thought he was so suave. And then he'd accuse my mom of spending too much money on groceries and throw the TV guide at her. Anyways, a little family moment, a little Galloway family moment. I don't even know, but that's what I was thinking about this weekend. Oh, my God. This is your balloon story? Oh, my God.

I need to get you a balloon. I feel like you have not gotten enough as a child. Up and away. Up and away in my beautiful. That's a good song. It was a good song. Oh, my goodness. Oh, that's a great song.

I don't know where I was going with that, Kara, was a good song. Oh, my goodness. Oh, that's a great song. I don't know where I was going with that, Cara, but I drink alone. Yeah, good. Anyway, let's go on a quick break. And when we come back, Elon Musk claims he saved Twitter from bankruptcy. And we'll speak with a friend of Pivot, Jerry Saltz. Fox Creative. This is advertiser content from Zelle. When you picture an online scammer, what do you see?

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Knowing what to do, when to do it, and who to hire. Start caring for your home with confidence. Download Thumbtack today. Scott, we're back. Elon is claiming victory in his Twitter takeover over the weekend. He tweeted, Twitter still has challenges, but is now trending to break even if we keep at it. As a reminder, Twitter's daily revenue was reportedly down 40% year over year this past month. Elon's also been sued for failing to pay for private jet services, rent due on Twitter

properties, and most recently, M&A advisory services relating to the Twitter acquisition. Obviously, he laid off a lot of people. Of course, he declared it was close to bankruptcy and then said he saved it, which is very common for him. He did this in 2018 around Tesla, which actually was, I think, in more trouble. Some good news for him also is the U.S. Committee on Foreign Investment has decided for now not to investigate his Twitter purchase in spite of initial concerns about the level of investment from Saudi Arabia and China. This is something we said they would not do. They would not. He's an American citizen. Mark Andreessen, whose fund put $400 million of equity backing the deal, reportedly hates recent site changes so much

he's been complaining directly to Elon. And then again, he won his two legal victories. It doesn't matter what he tweets. This past Friday, a federal jury ruled in his favor that a lawsuit over his funding secured tweet. Musk's lawyer, Alex Spiro, who should probably get a bonus, successfully argued that Musk shouldn't be penalized for, quote, imperfect tweets. He used a similar argument from the defamation trial against Musk for calling the British cave diver a pedo. In both trials, the upshot was that he shouldn't be taken literally on Twitter. A pedo in both trials. The upshot was that he shouldn't be taken literally on Twitter. Side note, three top former Twitter legal officials are expected to testify before the House Oversight Board this week about how Twitter handled the Hunter Biden laptop story. We'll talk about that in a second. But what do you think of the Elon thing? It's sort of ups and downs, but this sort of fake victory is mine after a disaster seems on brand for him. Yeah. So again, back to my childhood, my favorite comedian growing up,

hands down, was Richard Pryor. And remember when Richard Pryor, I guess he was freebasing and something, I don't know the mechanics of freebasing. Soon enough, but anyways. And he basically lit his face on fire and started a fire. And this is the equivalent of that happening and then him grabbing a hose and saying, I'm a hero.

That tweet, I thought it was an onion tweet saying that I brought it back from the brink of bankruptcy. It's like, boss, you're the arsonist. What are you talking about? You're the one that's put it close to bankruptcy. This is his narrative. He loves this narrative. It's comfortable for him.

Remember when he was sleeping on the factory floor? I wouldn't wish the pain on anyone. It's like, only I can fix this. Yes. If I do not sleep on the factory floor, I shall. No, I remember that. I remember doing a very teary interview. I was like, Jesus, dude.

Talk about a messiah complex. It really was. It's his favorite way. Drama is his favorite. Creating drama, imagining drama, there being real drama is part of the journey that he has when he does these things. It's a really interesting. I think people will study it some. You know, I mean, I think it does keep him going.

Staying up all night and not sleeping, you know, doing whatever it takes, this sort of hardcore stuff. And again, it's repeated over and over again in his career. And so he does. He makes a mess and then cleans it up and says, look what I cleaned up. And the mess shouldn't have been as messy. It could have been a lot easier. But he needs the drama. But go ahead.

I do think there's a business lesson here. And that is, as a young CEO, when someone said something in a meeting that I didn't think was right or whatever, I was constantly kind of back in their face. You know, sometimes, I'm not even sure, it might even half or two-thirds, sometimes the best strategy is just to let it go. And he always has to create drama where there really doesn't need to be any. It doesn't add any value to the business. It doesn't add any value to his brand. It's like occasionally, even if you're in a meeting and someone says something that's not entirely accurate or you disagree with, you don't always have to say something and like set the record straight. Sometimes it's easy. He always has to say something.

You know, it's easy. He always has to say something. You know, it's just, it's just, anyways, I read that tweet and I'm like, Jesus Christ, this is why I am, I need to get off Twitter again. Like, what the fuck? In his trial, he did the same thing. My back hurts. I've been working so hard. Feel sorry for me.

And then he has all these enablers that, oh, Elon, sleep. We need you. If you don't exist, we shall never, this earth shall not pass. And he does have this God complex. He literally told me during that period of time when I did the interview in 2018, he said, if I don't succeed, humanity is at risk if Tesla does not succeed. And I thought, wow. Thank God he did. I was like, I get conceptually that we need to go into electric cars, but really? Like, come on. It was really fascinating. And the Committee on Foreign Investment thing, I know they're not going to look at it, and they shouldn't have, and we did say that very explicitly, but they're watching it. They're watching Saudi Arabian and Chinese influence on it. What makes you of the Andreessen thing? Any thoughts? I would think that, you mean in terms of him weighing in on what he doesn't

like about Twitter? Yeah. I just think it's fodder for the media. I don't, who knows, he might have just called them and said, here's some ideas, and the media loves to make, you know, controversy. They're just so fascinated with anything Elon. And they decided, the media's definitely, it's interesting, they love Elon. I mean, they have a kind of a love-hate relationship with him, but mostly love him. The media's definitely turned on Andreessen. They really don't like the guy. And it's interesting because if you look back, I remember 20, 30 years ago, all these pictures, fawning pictures and profiles of him as the guy who invented the web, right? And I don't know him. I think he's obviously a brilliant man, but he's managed his brand poorly, or whoever manages brand for him has

managed it poorly. Oddly enough, this weekend, I spent a lot of time reading all our texts. We haven't talked in two years because he got mad at me about being woke or something. Who knows why he's cuddled? He blocked me finally, and I have no idea why. But he and I used to text quite frequently. And by the way, Mark, they were all on the record, just so you know. And I'm not going to use them necessarily. But I showed them to someone, and they thought, God, he's charming.

He was. He's really funny, sort of puckish and smart and difficult. And, you know, I'm so sorry. He seems to have taken some sort of whatever pill you take that makes you unpleasant. You know, red pill or whatever. Take the blue pill or the red pill. It's so funny because most of the pills I take make me infinitely more pleasant. Anyway, I find it, I have to say, I told you I was writing this memoir.

Of the many relationships that have gone south, that's the one I really enjoyed more than others, I have to say. When I read them, I could see I was having fun. He hates the media, right? Well, no, he doesn't. He was constantly in touch with me. Like when I looked at it, I'm like, oh my God, we texted daily. Like, no, he didn't. He likes the media. He keeps trying to make media things. He's just mad if they don't agree with him now for some reason. And he didn't before. He used to be funny about it, but you know, whatever, people change. Well, it'll all come out in the book. Available on bookshelves. When does your book come out?

When does it come out? I'm three quarters done now. Yeah, you've made a lot of progress in the last month. I'm really impressed. I've made a lot of progress. I have some great people helping me. Anyway, anything from this Twitter, I think Vijay Gade is going to be there at the House Oversight Committee. Chair James

Comer, I think it's Comer, of Kentucky is leading the panel. He says the laptop story raises questions about foreign influence and national security. I think it's just a stupid mistake. But okay, James. Yeah, I don't. It's one of these performative things. 100%. There's no, where's the beef here?

Where's the beef? That's an old reference. Another reference. We're back in the old songs, up and away, long, long time. Where's the beef? That's an old reference. Another reference. We're back in the old songs, Up and Away, Long, Long Time. Where's the beef? All right. Let's bring in our friend of Pivot. Jerry Saltz is the Pulitzer Prize-winning senior art critic for New York Magazine and a leading voice in the art world at large. Jerry is the author of Art is Life, Icons and Iconoclasts, Visionaries and Vigilantes, and Flashes of Hope in the Night. He has over a million followers across platforms. It's a pretty interesting life story, and we love listening to him talk

about art because he really does also understand tech. Welcome, Jerry. Hi. Great to be with both of you. Long time, first time. Oh, this is so great. You're such a fascinating character on Twitter and other places and such a sharp point of view. And that's a nice way of saying we like someone like you to talk about these things. Tell us how you got into the field and how you, you know, your book tracks the changes in the art world in the 21st century. I want to get your conclusions, but tell us how you got here in the first place. century. I want to get your conclusions, but tell us how you got here in the first place.

Well, like everybody's story, I just kind of backed into it by accident, and I'm still learning on the job. I'm about 24 hours ahead at most of my readers. I started as an artist. I never went to school. I'm as big a loser as anybody listening, possibly a much bigger one. Came from the suburbs of Chicago, started making art, sold it, got reviewed, got a huge grant of $2,000 in 1980 when I was 26 or something to move to New York. I came here and the same demons that speak to everybody listening to this started speaking to me in New York. You can't do this. You don't know what you're doing. You've got bad hair. Your neck is no good. You don't know how to schmooze. You didn't go to school. You're a gigantic loser. And I listened to those voices. And I don't want anyone listening to me to do that because it's bad.

I self-exiled from the art world and I became a long-distance truck driver. I think the only Jewish one. And I drove from New York to Florida or New York to Texas once a month, filled with rage and the hatred of everybody, which, of course, was just hatred of me. And the long story short, how I got here is after about 10 years. And I never stopped going to art shows. I still see 25 to 30 a week in New York. That's my love, my life, my beat.

But I, listen, I knew I had to come back to the art world because the outside world was too hard for me. It was killing me. I was eaten up by rage and envy, like I said. So I thought, maybe being an art critic is easy. I'd never written a word in my life. Because there's no envy and anger there. Very secure field. And I taught myself to be an art critic by reading the kind of bullshit that is still in art magazines, which is, and I first started writing like the late commodified object, a post-capitalist,

neo-Marxist, haptic, liminal, until finally, like everybody, I had to give in and write in my own voice. And that's how I ended up here with you guys today. So first off, Jerry, I mean this sincerely. It's so nice to meet you. I follow officially 2,000 people on Twitter, but there's maybe a dozen I actually follow, and you're one of them. I just love how raw and authentic and fearless you are. And I've figured out we're brothers from another mother. See above rage and self-hate. My question is the following. I'm good. I'm good. I'm very happy. Anyways. Go ahead. Kara is very self-assured. Go ahead, angry man. If you haven't heard. I read that 50% of NFT trading volume is what's called watch trading. And that is fake wallets that are owned by the same person attempting to send false signals to each other. And I was just outraged and I wrote a post on it.

And then a friend of mine called me and said, you realize you just described what happens in the art world, that it's all of these galleries trading amongst high net worth collectors, trading amongst each other to try and create false signals around prices. And I know nothing about the art world, but is that true? Is the art world kind of an artificial Jenga set that people try and send false signals about the value of art? It's really a great question, and I feel a brotherhood and a sisterhood with both of you. I have to say, I'm 71. I'm from a former world. And so I have no cynicism. I have skepticism. I believe that 99% of all artists don't make money, that 99% of all galleries don't make money, and that we're giving 99% of our attention to the 0.0111% of people that do, and that the long way of saying,

I trust galleries. They are places that art is free. Anyone can go in and kick the tires, ask anything, not be embarrassed. Are they jazzing up prices? I will say prices are obscene and ridiculous, unsustainable to me, but I'm not in the real world. I get to stand back. So what I would say to anybody going to a gallery in any of the neighborhoods in your cities, go, trust them. They are mom and pop operations, except for the megas, and we're allowed to Trust them. They are mom-and-pop operations, except for the megas, and we're allowed to hate them. They are the Death Star that we will all work for someday, because our phony baloney jobs will finally give out. So my long answer is saying, the numbers get big and ridiculous and those numbers may be all fuzzed i wouldn't know but 99 is straight up people like you and me and all of us just trying to get by and have a life lived in

art which is all we want so what what are the most the biggest changes happening now how has it changed i want to get into the impact of social media and NFTs because you tweeted some interesting things related to it recently. But I'll get to that in a second. But what were your most important conclusions, did you think, from thinking about the art world in the 21st century? A couple of things. On social media, Caro, since you brought that up first, you might be able to already hear from my kind of glockenspiel-like voice that I don't write or speak with a lot of authority. Why? Because I don't feel it, and it intimidates me when somebody talks that way that seems like jargon and pointy-headed,

long wall labels that really make big claims about things that contain nothing. I realized in about 2007 or something, quite by accident, last adapter always, nobody's ever touched my phone with this one million follower thing. And instead of writing on my status, Cara, I went to the dentist and then get six sad emojis at the end of the day. One day I wrote that I didn't like a particular show and gave a reason why. And then late that

night, I looked at my comments. Instead of there being nine comments, there were 500 carrying me a new one. And I realized, really, it was like a revelation, and I was set free that the model of criticism in many of our worlds is top down from the one or the boss speaking to the many. And that couldn't work for me because I'm a loser. I understood immediately that social media allowed instead of the one to the many of the many to speak to one another across the plane. But when you talk about that, that's how it attracts people talking about it. But how has it changed? It promised to remove gatekeepers in media and entertainment and in art. Has that happened then, do you think, if people are being able,

the many can talk to everybody? Has that changed the dynamic? Because it's always been, art's always been sort of a gate-kept world for many people. It's the beginning of a game changer. That means that a lot more artists can get in onto a lot more stages in a lot more ways. Needless to say, the real estate available in, quote, good galleries is still limited, especially in New York. We live on an island, and life is miserable here, and so it's tough, but it's tough everywhere. tough, but it's tough everywhere. It is, the art world apartheid is beginning to drop. And all the greatest changes I've ever seen in the art world of the last 500 years have taken place in the 21st century. Social media is part of it. A double pandemic of going into our caves during the first part of COVID and making art and living life at whatever was close at hand and intimate with the studio, the office, the pharmacy, the kitchen being the same room, exploded even as the angel of death walked down the streets with the second pandemic, which was George Floyd. And it caused young people in particular to stream out on the street

and basically say the obvious, which is we've talked the talk a long time in the art world. In my case, it was time to walk the walk. And really, in just the last, say, 36 months, everything has changed on the outside of the art world, and those changes are never going back. The ideology of modernism that actually thought art was linear will seem psychotic in the near future. It's very male to me, but a lot of the art it made. So the conditions on the ground are absolutely fluid. The system is broken. People are being tasked with building a new world and new schools, which are a total sham and scam, as Scott has talked about a lot. And tenure has rotted a lot of art schools. So, Jerry, you not only know art, but you know artists.

And have you made any observations around central themes or characteristics or backstories or the way they were brought up that is common amongst great artists? I think that all artists are self-made and outsider artists, whether they go to school or they back into their job, that anyone that is doing anything is kind of like a smelly shaman living on the edge of a village. And this person wears a funny hat, has to keep their studio or office in a certain way and maintain their workers in a certain way. And they make things or do things that they then have to convince people outside the shamanic realm that they need. And this podcast is an example of that. A bad writer like me is an example of that, of trying to take your drive, your delusion, your passion, your need, and the courage to actually do anything. Those are the magic

ingredients I have found in every artist. And I want all artists to succeed, the good, the bad, and the very bad. That means I, as an art critic, get to see what you're up to. So anybody listening to this, you've done something that archaic people used to do. They made drawings. So do you. So have you. Just get to work, you big babies, and fail. Be at least as mediocre as Kara and Scott and me. I'm easy to beat. Is it that hard to make your mediocre work? That's what we're doing. That's the characteristic, the courage to start. Jared, do you have kids?

I loathe children. I am a God. I hear you. I hear you. I'm a Godfather to a lot of kids. I hear you. I hear you. I'm a godfather to a lot of kids. I have a huge wad of $5 bills I carry, and I hand them out to all my godchildren, and I love them. I think that anyone raised by a creative person like you guys is having the best life on earth, even if they screw up

your lives. I don't care. My question was the following. That wasn't my question. My question was, as someone who has no artistic skill, and you think, I think society doesn't like artists. They love them once they make it, but they hate them up until that point, or not hates them, but I just think it's such a tough... I don't think there's a lot of schools encouraging people to not go to college and be artists or go to college to be, anyways, I feel like they have to overcome things. As you look at your godchildren, what advice would you give to parents who think that their kid, and every parent believes this, I think, probably incorrectly, that their kid shows some flair or shows some of that creative

magic to make sure that the world doesn't starch that out and that they develop that desire. Like, what advice would you give to parents who think, you know, I'd like my kid to at least consider that as a way to make a living? That's a beautiful question for all parents. I guess I would say every child, every person, you have to allow them to be embarrassed by what they make. You have to not actually correct them because your dumb idea may not be their dumb idea. And no one can prove that Leonardo da Vinci is better than Norman Rockwell. Your kid's squiggles might have a kind of urgency that Cara's kid's squiggles have,

but her kids make stripes. The point being, don't be a tiger parent around art. They don't have to worry. They're freedom machines. And this is one area where if you can stay a freedom machine, you will develop a dumb system that can spit out things you can't predict. And that's one of the definitions of art. You're absolutely right. You can also put all their stuff on the wall, which is what I do. So we've been talking a lot about tech and recent news around artificial intelligence, especially. Is the art world responding to this at all and related?

Because they're using a lot of artwork in DALI and other things. And then related, you tweeted, artists, the blockchain will be technically obsolete and inaccessible within 12 years. Talk a little bit about NFTs and the stuff around AI and ChatGPT and DALI and all these different things. What impact is it having, if any? As a geezer, I know nothing about any of this. Here's what I do know. All right, but you did tweet about the blockchain. All I meant was that the technology, my Instagrams, your Instagrams, as we know them now, will be like beta videotape in 13 years. You'll barely be able to find it and just barely remember what your MySpace space was.

My thought was NFTs are a tool. AI is a tool. Someday there will be a Francis Bacon of AI. a long time to get good at, I made an NFT. I sold the NFT for about $100,000. But in the art world, I understood that if I kept that money, the filter of money makes people cynical and it makes them blind to art. You can't walk into a mega gallery without going, what's all this fucking money, man? I want some of this money. And then you can't see the bad or the good. So what I did with my $100,000 is I gave it to Memorial Sloan Kettering.

So I removed the block and left just the chain of the art. So I think that AI is a camera, is a pencil, is a lithograph. If it's a tool, if artists don't use it, they're ridiculous. Are you finding really interesting stuff on digital versus the analog? Are they different? interesting stuff on digital versus the analog? Are they different? No, I just think it's a material and I think no artist should call themselves an acrylic paint artist or a yarn artist, just the way I wouldn't call anybody a digital artist. You're a poet, you're an artist, you're a dancer, use materials. Artists are people who use materials. Digital files are materials. Every photograph everybody's going to see today,

all billion of them, not one exists in the material world. Art is the most advanced operating system our species has ever created to explore consciousness and embed thought in material. That's what it is. It's probably using us to reproduce itself. We've created a new tool for consciousness to explore and bask in itself. NFTs, which are kind of noodley and nothing for now, will be replaced in short order by extraordinary things that I won't be here to see, and I'll be very jealous of every, like you two, that get to see it.

These are tools. Don't define yourself by them. Never just focus on the money. A podcast is a tool for now. I never owned a piece of art because I felt like I had serious imposter syndrome. I always felt like if I buy a piece of art, I'm trying to pretend that I'm something I'm not. And a couple of years ago, I bought my first two pieces of art,

and I'm gonna test your memory skills here. And the reason I bring this up is Kara's at my place, and above her is the first piece of art I've ever purchased. And I'm curious what you think of the artist. And it has sentimental value for it because it was introduced to me by someone who means a great deal to me. But it's a guy named Grayson Perry. And it's called Map of a Politician. Do you know Grayson?

I met him when he was a kid. I can barely see the thing in back of Kara the way my screen is you bought a work of art that maybe everyone that walks in your apartment hates but you bought a work of art from a visionary a person not unlike you who tried to dismantle both you, dismantle these big systems of power, and even be on a first-name basis with them, Elon this, you know, that, this, and yet be able to experience the thing with wings, the magic in it. You bought, as self-loathing as you are, you nailed it. You don't have to buy another fucking piece of art. You're done. And you don't even care how much it cost. How much did it cost?

I think it cost... $6,000? Oh, no. Add a zero to that. It's big. It's big. Oh, see, I can't see it. I only see a tiny corner of a reflection. I love it because I think it's visually arresting. It's very political, and I love it. But the reason I bought it is Grayson, I just think, is so courageous.

He's so talented. I don't know if you know him, Kerry. He lives half his life or half his year as a man, and then the other half he identifies as a woman and wears these crazy dresses. And he's just fearless. I just want to be supportive of him. But I want to go back to the original question. Why is it, do you think, that we feel imposter syndrome when we're around art? And it makes us feel, it makes me feel insecure, quite frankly. Perry was just knighted, incidentally. God bless him or her or they. I'll tell you what, we have made a terrible, sad, tragic mistake around visual art, and I don't know why, but when we listen to Mozart

or Abba, we never ask, what does this mean? We never try to understand it. And yet soon as we get in front of a work of art, like say if you know an artist named Mark Rothko, who makes sort of floating square and rectangle Buddhist televisions that kind of blank TV screens and fuzz up and down and people cry in front of them. cry in front of them. You do not ask what a Mozart means. You ask what a work of art rather does. Art is a verb. Only in the last couple of hundred years have we turned it into a noun. Art is something that does something, whether it speaks to the gods, is propaganda for the Catholic Church as Michelangelo was against the Protestants, was Goya trying to speak at the same time against Napoleon's army, or any voice at all. These, art has voices. All you have to do is get very quiet, quiet the imposter syndromes in all of us. I too look at a Rembrandt and often think,

it's kind of brown. It's a bit brown. And you have to get very quiet and go, well, why have tens of thousands of other people like this? They can't all be faking it. What about the consensus makes Twitter, say, a fascinating platform, despite the bullshit that we play out on it? If we could ask the slightly bigger, more beautiful question, on it. If we could ask the slightly bigger, more beautiful question, why am I dancing to Dancing Queen alone in my apartment? When I look at a Grayson Perry, something opens in me. I feel an openness. Well, I don't want to talk about a dream that other people haven't had, but Scott nailed it in one piece. Scott, you did it. I love this interview. One question is, you devoted chapters to paintings by George W. Bush. What do you think about them? I don't hate them. I don't hate them. I'll be

honest with you. You don't hate them? I don't. I do not hate them either. Here's the author of the Bush trainee fake war machines. Here's the gremlin on the wing of the United States of blessed America. And the person with the most power, theoretically on earth at that time, when he retires, what's his vision? Himself alone in a shower, looking at himself, alone in a shower, looking at himself smiling weirdly in a mirror or in a bathtub with his toes twinkling, to me, that made his art at least as great as great thrift store or garage sale art. And when I wrote that I did not hate his work and that I would buy one for $155, because we're living in an identity-judging culture, that based on who made the art is good, not what the art is.

Even though I hated George Bush, articles were written everywhere how I was part of the problem and that I shouldn't be allowed to write anymore. That happens if I write negative on a woman, on an artist of color, on a disabled artist. I'm an illegal Estonian immigrant, first born here in this beautiful country, but illegal. And if I write on any Estonian negatively, I will be attacked now in the press. But that maybe is the way it should be. Yeah. Yeah, I agree with you on George Bush. Just advice to your younger self, Jerry. I mean, from a long-haul truck driver to an art critic,

you know, everyone has plans and God laughs. Like, if you could speak to your 25-year-old self, what would you want to say to him? My God, kid, don't give up. You're just as bad as everybody else. Your drive, you can feel it. It's enormous. You want to commune with the ancestors of art, even though you know nothing. You have a shot. If you would just keep trying, you don't have to be so isolated,

so afraid, so filled with envy. You can just be a loser like everybody else and play with it. No, no, a winner, and you're as good as everybody else. Same dip. Same dip to me. Right, Jerry. I love my work either way. Your work is wonderful.

Anyway, everybody, please read Jerry Saltz. He's one of our faves. He always brings delight to me whenever I read him. And I know almost nothing about modern art or anything else. And I always get it when I read him. And that's the mark of a great critic. Anyway, Jerry, thank you so much. We really appreciate it.

We remain your fans, too. I'm an enormous fan of both of you. Thank you. Thank you. Such a pleasure, Jerry. You're really an inspiration. I find, I just love how you live out loud and you just do everything with a real fearless tone to it. I really admire you. And by the way, he likes your picture, Scott. He likes your picture. I nailed it. He likes your picture. Keep doing the great work, you guys.

Thank you, Jerry. I nailed it. He likes to picture. Keep doing the great work, you guys. Thank you. Thank you, Jerry. Thanks, Jerry. Oh, Jerry, he's such a delight. Anyway, Scott, one more quick break, and we'll be back for wins and fails. Okay, Scott, let's hear some wins and fails. Can just do my win of course 80 for brady what is it i've read about that but i don't know what it is it's a jane and lily tomlin sally field rita moreno and jane fonda and they love tom brady and that's all i need to and they just run around and it looks delightful it has seems ridiculous, but it's just the kind of feel-good movie I enjoy very much.

And I just love every single one of those actresses. And they never really do. One of them was, I think it was Sally Field was giving me the interview. She said, I never do sort of groups of old lady movies that you have to do when you're an old lady. But this one looked, she's very good friends with Jane Fonda, apparently. I love Lily Tomlin from The Gecko. I love Rita Moreno. I'm very excited for seeing 80 for Brady.

Yeah, that should be nice. The negative is just stop with the balloon right wing. Stop. Stop. You've got to start focusing on real things. This is, oh, God, just stop. Please stop. I beg of you.

So that's it. That's my fail. Go ahead. Please stop. I beg of you. So that's it. That's my fail. Go ahead. just symbolically. Instead, I don't know if you remember this, they waited and they tried to assess the intelligence. They got all their ducks in the order and then they bombed their shit out of the Taliban. But they waited and they were measured. And granted, they went way too far in the kind of the geopolitical first ballot hall of fame of catastrophic decisions to then go into Iraq. But anyways, that's a bit of a digression. But I think the Biden administration handled this, took a very weird situation that absolutely no one could predict. And I thought they handled it perfectly. They didn't have an irrational need to feel macho and shoot it down

right away. They assessed their options. And I think they handled this really well. And I think it's another example of why, you know, when you're really strong, you can be measured. You can say, okay, we're fine. This is not an immediate threat. How do we demonstrate strength? By being measured. And we don't – and I love the fact they didn't give in to all this Republican bullshit, macho, fake, like, oh, we should, this would have never happened if Trump were in office. Well, actually, it happened three times. Yeah.

So, anyway, a win for the Biden administration. That's always, like, it's literally on brand. Every time this happens, Trump did something worse. And then they're like, oh, like that. Like, you know what I mean? Like, we're real mad, but, oh, it's not the same, whatever. Stop talking, Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio. Anyway, your fail? And my fail is it's a longer conversation, but I wrote a blog post on

population decline. And we're going to have a longer conversation about it, but go ahead. I was just struck by how negative, there's some really, it inspired a ton of thoughtful comments, and I learned a lot. But what struck me about it was how negative a younger generation is on the future. And I think it's a function of a few things. I think they have the right to be a little bit cynical. It's difficult, much more difficult for them to buy a house. I think that our economy has been slowly but surely legislative and economically slanted against them. And we tilt benefit towards incumbents and older people. slanted against them and we tilt benefit towards incumbents and older people.

But I think their nihilism and their cynicism is unfounded. And I think it's a function of a new cycle that attempts to catastrophize everything. And I've been thinking a lot, I've been looking through some college photos, and you're nostalgic for those days. But I think about those days, I think about the opportunity or specifically the lack of opportunity that my mother just did not have as a single mother, how hard it was for her. I think about friends who had to be closeted and ended up getting sick and dying very undignified deaths. I just don't think young people, I think if you look through history, the data shows that while the arc is bent, it bends towards a better world. And there's just absolutely no reason to not believe that in 30, 50, 100 years, if you decide to have kids, the world is going to be wonderful, that it's going to be a wonderful place. And that's not to say we need to sit on our hands around climate change. It's not to say we don't have huge challenges. But any sober look at the data, whether it's the rights of people of color, whether it's living under a democracy, whether it's getting to love who you want to love, whether it's economic opportunity, whether it's the ability to address what was a life-threatening disease, folks, the world gets a little bit better every day. The Sonny Scott is really interesting to me. If you look at the arc of history, if you go back 5 or 10 or 20 years, a lot of it's random.

The world might have been worse for whatever reason or. But if you go back any extended period of time, I mean, life expectancy is dramatic. We have a vaccine for malaria now. We have a prophylactic for HIV. We cut abject poverty in half in 20 years, and we're going to cut it in half again in the next 10 years. There's almost no disease that we don't have a fighting chance at curing now. And to not look at the data and feel somewhat optimistic about the future and about that the world is going to be a great place for you and your children is to ignore the data. All right, Scott. I like it.

I like it. Don't watch The Last of Us. That's all I have to tell you. Don't watch it. But even you saw Paul Krugman's article that actually the economy is really good, but people think the economy is awful. That's because the relentless march of bad news is everywhere. It surrounds you. And hence, get the fuck off Twitter right now.

I'm going to take it off your phone. Anyway. Anyway, that's a good one, Scott. I would agree with you. I've always been optimistic, although I'm an optimistic pessimist. I think you're a pessimistic optimist. Anyway, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call

855-51-PIVID. Okay, Scott, that's the show. Before we head out, we want to take a moment to acknowledge that Turkey and Syria are still experiencing aftershocks following two massive earthquakes in the region. The death toll is over 2,000 as we record this. We'll be back on Friday for more. Please read us out. Today's show is produced by Lara Naiman, Evan Engel, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Andretat engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows and Neil Saverio. Make sure you're subscribed to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Cara, the world gets a little bit better every day.

Including the art you just bought. There you go. I nailed it.