Pivot - Bob Iger at Code 2022

Episode Date: September 17, 2022

Bob Iger, the former CEO and Chairman of The Walt Disney Company, speaks with Kara Swisher at Code 2022. Kara and Bob discuss the winners and losers in the streaming wars, the future of movies, that time he almost bought Twitter, and what he’s up to in retirement. Recorded on September 6 in Los Angeles. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hi, everyone. This is Kara Swisher, and today we've got a bonus episode for you. It's my conversation with Bob Iger, aka Bob One from this year's Code Conference. I spoke with Bob about the winners and losers in the streaming wars, the future of movies, and the time he almost bought Twitter and what he's up to in retirement. Enjoy. So talk to me, start with one of the things I remember when we talked about 20 years ago, some of the very early all things Ds. Very few media executives understood what was happening digitally at all. And you were not resistant to it. And one of the things I think you said on stage, if I recall correctly, was if someone's going to eat our lunch, it might as well be us. I said that that long ago?

Yeah, that long ago. Very smart, very prescient. You've gotten a lot of things wrong too. But talk to me about that back then, how you looked at it. Because Eisner had tried a number of things, most of which didn't work. How did you look at it? That was in 2005, I think, when we talked. And I had just become CEO of Disney. And we were already feeling the disruptive effects of digital technology. Web consumption, sort of the era of Web 1.0 was actually coming into its own. And web consumption, spending on the web, advertising on the web was all growing. And it was clear that it was starting to have, albeit small at the time, but starting to have a tangible impact on traditional media

businesses, how people were spending their money, how people were spending their time. And so I felt then that it would be foolish to try to stand in the way of technological progress. No one's ever done that successfully. And the best thing we possibly could do, we could do would be initially really to prepare for its impact as opposed to to create, to hasten the change or to participate in in a will not participate, but to essentially create it ourselves, I guess the way to put it. So then I basically, so the bet that was made, there was a big debate at that time in media about distribution versus content. And it became pretty clear that distribution was going to be extraordinarily disrupted by technology. And if you made great content, then you could ride a wave of great new distribution, great new technology and disruption in a very successful way.

So the first thing really was about... Understanding your role. Understanding the role, focusing on putting most of our capital in the direction of making great branded content. And then at the same time, starting to experiment by putting content on new platforms. Right.

And the first thing that we did, which I guess is relevant to your conversation later, is Steve Jobs and I began a conversation about putting television products on the quaint little video iPod, which was at that point... How did that start? Did he call you? What was the... No, I had called him because I was a heavy user of then iTunes, a big music fan, loved what iTunes had done for me

in terms of my music consumption, not just mobility, but curation, choice, all those things. And I suggested to him that he think about doing that with television shows. Like, why not create a place that went back in time in the history of television, where someone could go and find every episode of every television show ever made. I was thinking then about the web. I wasn't

thinking about mobile device. He said, that's not a crazy idea. Let me come down and talk to you. And he came down, showed me a prototype of the video iPod, seems so quaint at this point, and said, if we bring this out, of course he was planning to bring it out, would you put your television shows on it? I said, hell yes. And we did a deal in five days to put Lost, Grey's Anatomy, and Desperate Housewives on that platform, which was considered at the time highly disruptive to our traditional media distribution. Through a network. Namely the network, and then there were some ancillary or alternative forms of distribution. DVDs. DVDs, right.

Mostly then for TV shows. Right. And I guess many people in the industry thought I was a bit of a pariah for being willing to, one, partner with a technology company that was disrupting us, partner with a technology company that was disrupting us, and two, do something that they felt would be almost impossible to justify with the traditional partners. So fast forward, you then made a lot of investments in tech, some of which worked, some of which didn't. How did you decide what to invest in? Because I'm trying to think of so many Disney things that were attempted, just like in News Corp, but many of the others.

We made a lot of small investments. The biggest investment that we made was with a company called Maker Studios, which was a miss. That was, when thinking back on it, didn't really fit that well into our strategy. The biggest investments, of course, that we made were in IP, which dwarfed, in terms of the size of the investment, the investments that we'd made in technology. So it was tiny. There were some video game forays, namely video game developers. We didn't invest that much, though.

Did you think you didn't have the power? Were you worried about the growing power of people like Steve Jobs and Apple and others? Much of Hollywood was. My point of view on all of that at that point on technology was kind of if you can't beat them and we can't join them, don't view technology as basically challenge or as the foe. View them as potential partner and partners and opportunity. In other words, position yourselves well to take advantage of their investment in their technology and their distribution infrastructure. Position yourself as best possible to play in that world as opposed to getting just blown

away by it. Right, right. By them because they did control the pipes, essentially. Well, cable and satellite were still very, very much dominant at that point, much less so today, of course. But it was clear to me that eventually they would be dominant. That it would be over the top. So one thing you said, too, I think it was Reed Hastings, I envisioned a world where technology would be so disruptive that it would allow for the explosion, really, of production. Can you talk about that? Sure.

I think you see that now. If you look back at the history of, quote, shelf space, you can go all the way back, of course, when it was just movie theaters and radio. I'm not going back before then. But then as television came into being in the 40s and 50s into the 60s, the amount of shelf space was very limited. There were just a few channels. So there was just so many places that you could go and so much time in a given schedule

because it was all linear and based on time, limited by time. There was just so much time that creativity could occupy. And then you look at what's happened today where there's almost infinite shelf space. So what infinite shelf space, and that means basically infinite distribution too, and infinite consumption, then what that gave birth to was just a tremendous explosion in investment in things that are being made, creativity. There's a lot of investment. We talk about it a lot on Pivot, like possibly too much.

So talk about, this is the economics of streaming that you really pushed into. You pushed Disney in very early. And y'all let Netflix have a lot of laps around the block as they were doing what they were doing. You were not one to disdain them. I think Jeff Bukas did, called them Albanian Army or something else. How did you get to that point? And I'd love to know what you think of what's going on now, because now there's real competitors.

There's a lot of money being put to it. There's worries about pricing, whether it should be advertising driven, subscription driven. Talk a little bit about that evolution when you were starting to think about it and now. Well, first of all, we were the, we were the, at Disney, we were the first studio to license movies to Netflix. Yes, you did. So they stepped up, paid more money than the traditional, it was called pay window, pay television providers paid to license the films that Disney made at the time. And I thought that was worthwhile for us because one, it was generating revenue, and two, it would give us a look into a different form of distribution. Right, and how this consumed. And we didn't get that much of a look because there was very little data that was shared,

but it was very interesting to see as Netflix grew and consumption of our movies on their platform grew, what might be possible. Then, of course, as they started to use their increased distribution and revenue? To make original content to compete with our original content It became became pretty clear that we have been selling nuclear weapons technology to a third world country of sports or developing country They are now using it against us and I felt that studied streaming very carefully Felt that for a variety of reasons, it was the future. For a couple of, to name a few, I thought linear television consumption would eventually end. That it was not that user-friendly, first of all. Second, that because

they had so much more shelf space, they could create a lot more opportunity for people to watch things, a lot more volume, a lot more diversity of programming, really. I also thought it was far more user-friendly in many ways. First of all, the user interface versus, by the way, a cable or satellite platform, plus the mobility part of it. You could watch it on app-based entertainment, so you could watch it on an app-based entertainment. So you could watch it on a device or you could watch it on a set basically on your wall. You

could also time shift in a much easier fashion. So user friendliness, more shelf space, I thought a much more compelling way to monetize investment and creativity than before. And so the next step, having seen what Netflix was now doing, was to do it ourselves. And the only thing that took time, well, first of all, there is indeed a real innovator's dilemma that a company in any traditional or embedded business is pretty much designed to protect their incumbency. That's correct. Everything about it. And it takes a tremendous amount of effort.

And I would argue a mandate, an edict by an entity to force change and essentially to go against the grain within your own company. Of what's making your money, right? Because you have shareholder pressure and things like that. But it became clear to me that there was an inevitability to having to do that. We would be better off doing it sooner rather than later. Frankly, I was tired of getting asked questions on earnings calls about the future of cable and satellite and decreasing in subscriptions primarily to ESPN. It was just time to make the pivot.

You had been in Hulu, though. You had been in other things. You had been in Hulu, though. You had been in other things. You had tried. We had made a modest investment in Hulu as one of the network owners that was providing programming to them. But it was, I think we owned maybe at that point 30%. Right, it was one of those things. It was pretty modest.

Yeah. And this is a time, this to me... Was owning yourself. It was time to really go for it, which meant significant investment, significant commitment, a true open-mindedness to disrupting almost everything that we do. And you have significant IP, which puts you ahead, which Netflix did not have. Interestingly enough, I envisioned way back a world where technology was going to, as we talked about, was going to expand basically the purview of the storyteller and that quality branded IP would basically stand the test of time and would thrive even in a disrupted world.

So when we had Disney, obviously, and ESPN, but then we bought Pixar and improved Disney animation and bought Marvel and bought Lucasfilm's Star Wars. And by the time we started to contemplate a pivot to streaming, it was pretty clear that we had a hand in terms of the content, the IP that we controlled that was stronger than any company that was in the business. Whether it was the technology companies that were going into it, like Amazon and Apple, whether it was Netflix, whether it was any of the incumbent media companies that had they tried, they would not have had those brands and that IP that we have. We'll be back in a moment with more from Bob Iger from Code.

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Learn more about how to protect yourself at vox.com slash zelle. And when using digital payment platforms, remember to only send money to people you know and trust. We're back. Now, more from Code. How do you assess the tech company's efforts? Apple, Amazon, Google's not really in it very much, although they talk about it every now and again. And Netflix, I guess, would be, I consider them a tech company, not a media company. But how do you assess their efforts so far? And then I'd love to get a sense of what's going to happen now, because it feels as if there's too many subscriptions. It's hard

to choose. Now, I have them all. I pay for them all right now. I can afford it. But how does that stay a business? And obviously, Netscape's moving to advertising. how does that stay a business? And obviously Netscape's moving to advertising. Well, first of all, I assess what they've done quite positively. I'm actually in some cases surprised. Not by Netflix success. I've kind of watched that incrementally improve. I was on the board of Apple when they decided to go into the streaming business of television and movies. I thought it would take them a long time. They've done better than I expected they would do because it was a business that they weren't in at all. Maybe that says a lot, too, about the opportunity

that if you invest wisely, bring the right people in. Yeah, or maybe it's just not so hard, but go ahead. Well, I think it's pretty hard. Okay, all right. I'll take your word for it. Oh, because it's just so unpredictable, and there's so much that you don't control, and you have to make a lot of tough choices without using any data that tells you what the right answer is beforehand.

The data can't tell you what movie to make. If you try, by the way, good luck. Yes, I know. So how I feel about it. Snakes on a plane, as I recall. As I look at it today, I'm pretty certain that, first of all, linear TV, we talked about, cable and satellite, is marching in a constant direction toward a great precipice, and it's going to be pushed off. A lot of people subscribe to cable and satellite television today

because of certain programming, but also because of habit and complacency. And I think as you see a generational shift that becomes more profound, away from baby boomers with new generations coming in, they don't want to watch linear television. So I can't tell you when, but it goes away. They just want the internet. It goes away. They want app-based television. They want to watch programming. It doesn't last. They just want the internet. It goes away. It goes, they want app-based television. They want to watch programming. Yeah.

It doesn't last. And the user interface just won't stand the test of time. So then you look at the streaming business. I don't think all streamers are created equal. I do not believe all streamers that are in it today will survive. There are going to be haves and have-nots. Well, now that you're not working, can you name some names? have-nots. Well, now that you're not working, can you name some names?

You know, I can tell you, I believe that, well, Netflix is going to continue to thrive. They could have some issues now, but they're not going away. Clearly, I'm a big believer in Disney. They've got the IP. They've already proven they can be successful in that business. Obviously, Apple and Amazon, they're not primary businesses for them, and they're measured probably by different standards in terms of the bottom line, and they serve other purposes in those companies, but they're not going to stand pat. They're going to continue to grow, and they'll grow well. They've got deep pockets. They've got great access to consumers. They have strong technology platforms. They've proven they know how to do it. So they stay. I'm not going to make any predictions about the others, but I think they've got some tough

hands. And it takes a lot of capital to be in that business. So I don't think they'll all make it. You brought up advertising. I believe that consumers will tolerate commercial interruption on streaming platforms in exchange for cheaper subscription fees. So whether you can afford it or not, you may make a decision that you want four streaming subscriptions, but you may want to pay less for each one and you'll take ads. You may decide one, you don't want ads because you watch that the most, but the others, you might as well take ads. So

advertising will thrive in a streaming world. What about bundling? Bundling of streaming platforms? Or just like look at what David Zaslav's attempting to do. Make a turducken over there at Warner Media. I'm not going to comment on that. I don't know, bundling. A discount turducken, but go ahead.

I think what Netflix is going to do with advertising, what Disney has announced they're going to do, those are smart moves. Because it's going to give consumers choice. You can have it for less. So what about movies then? Because movies, you're talking about television, and there's been an explosion of programming. There's a lot that's not good, but there was a lot of not good programming before. Oh, but there's a lot that is really good. Yes, there's a lot that is really good, which is great. And there's a lot that's not good, but there was a lot of not good programming before. Oh, but there's a lot that is really good. Yes, there's a lot that is really good, which is great. And there's a lot of choice, and that's really what's good about it. What about movies? Because you have recently said,

I think, that you thought that movie release is going to be changed dramatically the same way, that you didn't think people were going to stay and go to movies, except that they were large tentpoles, like a model. Yeah, I think the wound that the movie-going businesses suffered, which began really with COVID, or maybe was exacerbated or hastened by COVID, results in a permanent scar. So I don't think movies ever return, in terms of movie-going,

to the level that they were at pre-pandemic. And I think the reason for that is more than anything else, it's competition, it's choice. It's the fact that even though you say a lot that's being made on the streaming platforms isn't very good, I'd argue a lot is, and it's movie quality television. And sometimes it's a movie of a given series or story every week. And I think consumers have learned as they got more comfortable with the user interface and the subscription and basically app-based television, they've learned to find it, find shows that they like. They've learned to enjoy them. They love the flexibility

it gives them from a time perspective. And it replaces moviegoing. It doesn't mean movie going goes away. I'm a big believer in movies. I love big movies. I like going to theaters and watching with basically a communal experience with a lot of other people going out of the house. That won't go away, but it doesn't come back to where it was. It doesn't come back. I think it'll be very big tentpole movies. Yes, but it's not a dead business. No, it's a small business. Smaller. Broadway is great. It's small.

It's small. If you really actually look at the numbers, it's not very big compared to a lot of things. When you think about that, will it have the same cultural impact then? I mean, it's interesting because I think of a movie- Negative cultural impact? Positive or negative culture. Because I have to say, when I think of a movie like Encanto, my kid has watched it 193 times at this point. Thank you so much.

And then now Frozen is here to stay and never will leave our home ever. But it does have an impact on her. But can you have that big cultural impact? I guess all the kids know the songs, the same thing. I think the movie industry used to argue that you could not create cultural impact without having everybody go to a movie theater on the same weekend in every country in the world, and that you couldn't create franchises. I don't agree anymore. I probably made that argument at some point. You did.

It was an old world argument. And it basically wasn't rooted in reality. You're finding now, I mean, I know plenty of people who watched the Game of Thrones prequel on the same weekend that it came out and talked about it the next day. And Mandalorian, Disney had that with the Mandalorian when they put that on.

The Beatles get back, Hamilton on Disney Plus. We can name a lot of different things. Right. How does that change the talent relations? I suspect you spent more than your share of time talent petting, essentially. Are you glad that's over? I don't miss my job. Okay, all right, okay.

That has nothing to do with talent. I miss some people that I work with, but I don't miss my job. Okay, all right, okay. That has nothing to do with talent. I miss some people that I work with, but I don't miss my job. That never created much anxiety for me. The economics of it, not the petty. Well, I think it's interesting because the time we're going through right now in the media and entertainment space

is the age of great anxiety. Everybody's anxious. People who are running these big companies are anxious. Even streaming companies are anxious. Investors are anxious. Advertisers are anxious. The creative community is anxious. Agents are anxious. Everybody's anxious. They're anxious because this is an era of great transformation. And there are still a lot of unknowns. If you are a creator, I happen to believe that the world ahead, the world that we've really entered into, is a great world because it's going to create more opportunity.

The problem is in this transformation from the traditional to the new media, you have a completely different manner of measuring success. So if you're a creator, it used to be about what's my box office and what are my TV ratings? Gone. Both gone. So I think, one, there's anxiety because- They can't count. a creator, it used to be about what's my box office and what are my TV ratings? Gone. Both gone. So I think, one, there's anxiety because- They can't count. It's harder to count. And that ties to compensation, too. How am I rewarded? In a lot of cases, creators are rewarded in a good way. They're bought out. In other words, there's no second,

there's no ancillary rights. Their rights are basically bought in perpetuity. So once they sell it, then what's next? Do I root for it to continue to get great? I may not get paid against that. I think they want it to be great and consumed by a lot of people. But it's an interesting time in that regard. And I think what also you're seeing is a lot of people who are running these businesses are anxious and transferring that anxiety to the creative community. Right. And you have a creative community that is typically anxious to begin with

because they're putting their creative soul on the line constantly and there's so much that can't be predicted. So when that happens, who do you think wins in that game? Is it creators? We're going to have Issa Rae on next who makes her own stuff. Yeah.

Oh, definitely. I think creators win. Again, I think we've got to figure out how creators get compensated fairly in basically a new way of measuring what success is. Do you have any ideas on this? I've had ideas along the way, but none that I... You don't care now, right? I don't care how they get paid. I don't care that much anymore. I care't care how they get paid. No, I don't care that much anymore. I care a little. I optioned a book, actually.

Yes. So I was going to ask you about that. Two things I want to ask you about, because we're going to get to some questions in a minute. But metaverse. Do you see movies in the metaverse? Do you see that happening? Last time we talked, you were... Well, I think the metaverse has not really been fully defined yet.

Everybody's got its own definition. Everybody talks about now in terms of using Web 3.0. I think that there's a lot ahead in terms of technology's impact on people's experiences and lives that could be pretty exciting. We don't really. You also were worried about some of the things you could do to brand IP in those environments? Well, it depends on what kind of experiences you create. There's a requirement to monitor what people are doing right now on social media. Yeah, there's a requirement. It's working so well. Well, yes, that's true too. But if you think of you immerse kids, for instance, in a metaverse,

in an immersive world, I think the monitoring issues become bigger. First of all, the possibilities in terms of bad behavior grow, and the need to protect gets greater, and that's complicated. You weren't making a lot of investments when you were running Disney and Metaverse, right? Not to my, none that I recall. NFTs or anything like that? When I was still at Disney, they were kicking tires and doing some small deals with NFTs. So I want to finish up talking a little bit about management. And you were going to make some predictions for me.

Is that right? Well, I already said I thought not all streamers would last. Linear viewing and cable and satellite would eventually go away. Advertising would thrive. Creative community will be in good shape eventually yeah eventually what other predictions do you want lots of them so what do you what do you do it's gonna be hot in los angeles jobs this what do you do all day now bob what do you do how's retirement retirement is great i have a i have a vastly different life than i had before

uh i think first of all i don't have the responsibility and I don't have the vast quantities of homework that I had before, so there's much more kind of air in my day. I am learning, in fact, how to be an entrepreneur by mentoring and advising and investing in startup companies and entrepreneurs. You have a strange group here. What is your criteria? Perfect day, genius, which is a metaverse thing. You could be on any board in the world. I suspect they would love it. I've been offered a lot of different boards. I've said no to any large company board.

I've done that before. I enjoyed it then. I'm much more engaged now in new companies. So genius is one. They're basically creating tools for people to create avatars for use, by the way, in traditional social media platforms, but also in some form of Web 3.0 environment. Perfect Day manufactures whey protein without using cows. I'm associated with Canva, which is online creative design tools. I'm associated with Canva, which is online creative design tools. A company called Relativity Space that's manufacturing rockets with 3D printers. I'm missing a few. What is the guiding principles here?

Guiding principle is use of technology to disrupt current business or to have a positive impact on the world. Another one is a medical device company that's marrying AR with surgery, giving surgeons tools using basically high quality computer imaging, image rendering, real time for surgeons to use to basically have much greater vision. And they're using some Pixar technology to do that. So I'm drawn to companies that are using technology to change the world, using technology to disrupt. And I love, of course, as I always have, the merger of or the intersection of technology and creativity. Canva is a great example of that. You don't want another big media job. What if, say, Comcast bought Discovery and said, Bob, come back? First of all, I'm 71 years old. That's all right. You look good. I worked at ABC.

70 is the new 50. That's true. Maybe. Some days. No big media company, tech company? No, I worked for a big media company for almost 50 years. Yeah. I started when I was 23. Yeah. No. I don't know why I'm still No, I worked for a big media company for almost 50 years. Yeah. I started when I was 23. Yeah. No. I don't know why I'm still working. I'm having a good time. I'm writing another book.

Yeah. I'm having time to read and sail more. Yep. Get to know my grandchildren a little bit better. I'm learning a huge amount from people. So one of the things you're doing in this book is how to manage. I want you to finish up and then we'll get to questions from the audience. What do you think, it says, drawing on decades of experience managing crisis and adopting disruption,

Iger shares insights on how leaders across the country, around the world, blah, blah, blah. What is this book about? Leadership. Cara, you really know how to sell it. I know. I'll have to turn to you when the book comes out. Blah, blah. Oh, you are. You're coming on my podcast. Just FYI. I was...

We're going to do a whole thing about leadership, you and me. Okay. I was fascinated watching the world during COVID at how leaders were managing during this incredible crisis. And I realized that over history and things that I had read about and was fascinated with, there are many times in the world where leaders were called upon in extraordinary times to manage World War II, Churchill and the Blitz. And you can name tons of different examples of it. And so I started studying it more and trying to decide or trying to determine what the attributes, what attributes were needed to successfully manage through a crisis.

As I looked at it, I realized that because of some of the disruption that I've seen that we've talked about, I thought I could combine it with managing during a crisis, but also managing during a period of great uncertainty and transformation. And so I'm working with a team, researching as much as we can, not just what had been my experience through the pandemic, but also during tough times, but the experience of others, current CEOs, government officials, you name it, and what the commonality was, if there was commonality in terms of those that did it well and those that didn't. So what is the best leadership advice in that regard so far? And the worst? Well, it seems to me that I'm, I don't know, I wouldn't even say I'm halfway through this, but I'm really, I'm well into it. It's very, very clear that it takes a lot of empathy and a lot of courage. You have to put yourself in everybody else's shoes and really know what they're feeling. And it takes incredible courage to do a lot of things, including, which is another attribute you need, is you have to make decisions at a much

faster pace than ever before. And you have to have the courage to do that. You don't have the time to collect as much knowledge. You don't have the time to be as deliberate. You have to be really quick and really confident that you're making decisions that are right. Among the things that I've learned, you have to very carefully balance optimism with realism, making sure that you don't in any way kill people's hope or douse it at all, but also making sure you're preparing people for the worst. So for instance, you don't say about a pandemic, it's just going to blow over. You have to say, this is real, this is dangerous, this is going to cost lives. Here are the things you must do as a society to protect yourself and others, whether it's wear masks, vaccines, et cetera. We're going to get through this. We've got the right culture, the right

country, you name it, the right science, the right technology. Interestingly, that sounds like something a president would say in the United States. I know you thought about running. I've asked everybody else if they're running for office. Would you ever run for office? I'm not planning to run for office. Is that a no? That's just what I said. I'm not planning to run for office. Okay, all right, fine. I think you are. So last thing, you should. Why?

Why do you say that? I usually do not tell another white guy, oh, please run for office. We don't have enough of you. But I think you'd be an excellent, because I think you'd be an excellent politician because I don't think you'd give a fuck, which I like.

I like, that's one of the things I like about you. So last thing. Because I don't get drawn into your speculation? No, you totally get drawn in. You get completely drawn in. One of the things, this is interesting from someone I think is really smart.

I started listening less and maybe with a little less tolerance of other people's opinions, maybe getting a little bit more overconfident in my own. That was said by Bob Iger. Yeah. As my tenure at Disney grew, or whatever, wore on, I got more confident in my own opinions and judgments

and realized that in doing so, I was becoming more dismissive of others, either because I didn't have the time or because, again, I was so confident in my own instincts. I know that, right? Yeah, and that's a bad place to be. And I don't think I ever't have the time or because, again, I was so confident in my own instincts. I know that, right? Yeah, and that's a bad place to be. And I don't think I ever got to the point where I thought it was dangerous, but I got to the point where I felt it, and I articulated it to others I was working with,

and it was one of the reasons why I decided to step down when I did. First of all, I wanted to leave on my own terms, didn't want to overstay my welcome, did not want to get to the point where arrogance set in, and I was no longer doing the things that had made me successful at the beginning. All right, we'll end on that. And I don't have to go to Disney World anymore, right? You should go to Disney World. It's a great place to go.

No, it isn't. It's terrible. One time. Wait a minute. One time. You always bitched to me about going. And every time you went, you came back to me and said, that was a great place. No, I say it wasn't as awful as I thought it would be.

That's different. This guy, one time, this is so true. I'm putting it in my book. That's a glass half empty. He made me go on a cruise before he agreed, Disney cruise, where I agreed to come and speak. He said, you have to go on a Disney cruise first. You don't remember this, but it was very- I remember talking to you about it. I don't remember it. It was an extraordinarily cruel thing to do. The soft serve was excellent.

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Out. Beige on beige on beige. In. Knowing what to do, when to do it, and who to hire. Start caring for your home with confidence. Download Thumbtack today. Hi, my name is Alyssa Bushnell, and I have to say I judged COVID as being real when you shut down Disneyland Shanghai. Like, that's when I knew it was real. So, but my question is, how important is narrative in location-based entertainment for you? And second question is, I'd like, I'm curious as to your thoughts and perspective about Netflix expanding into LBE with regards to their Stranger Things and their Bridgerton experiences. Sorry, the first question, how important is narrative in... Location-based entertainment, like at Disneyland?

It's extremely important. Walt Disney created Disneyland as a place to tell stories in, to give people the sense that they had left their daily frets and their daily life behind and basically had entered a world that sees fantasy, adventure, et cetera, and so on. Really important. And since he created Disneyland in the mid-'50s, Disney Imagineering has infused stories into almost everything they've done

in theme parks around the world, whether it's a hotel, a restaurant, a parade, a theme park attraction, extremely important. And I think it's one of the things that differentiates Disney's theme park experience from all others. It's the immersive world that's created and the stories that people experience. The second part, Netflix and... They're entering into... Franchises.

Like in real life experiences with the Stranger Things experience and the Bridgerton experience? I don't have much, I don't have an opinion on that. I'm with you. I'm like. I don't know. I don't know. It seems kind of small, but worth experimenting. Thank you.

I'd love to see you in a Bridgerton outfit. You'd look good. Okay. Yeah. By the way, some of these businesses, what often happens at businesses is you run big businesses that do really well and everybody decides to freelance. And they create a lot of small stuff and it never comes close to the big stuff, but you're spending time and money on it. Yeah. You'd still look good.

I used to call it, I had a boss that called it trombone oil. You could be the world's greatest manufacturer of trombone oil and feel pretty good about it and then discover the world only consumes about two quarts of it a year. Yes. Why bother? I give you his management book. Go ahead. Bob, one of the things that struck me about your last book was you spoke pretty frankly about how your predecessor, you know, tried to kneecap you when you were trying to get the job. I wondered if you wanted to be interested if you reflected on the bare knuckles part of business as you look back.

By the way, I have a really nice relationship with Michael Eisner. He taught me a tremendous amount. As I think back on that and maybe as I've matured, I realize I wouldn't have gotten the job without things that I learned from him and ultimately without his support. I also know, having gone through it, he was somewhat conflicted in handing the reins over to someone else, a company that he ran for 21 years. And so I'm much more empathetic today about it. And I'm thankful and grateful to him and spend time with him. And we have a good relationship.

And his knees are just fine. In terms of when you enter the corporate world, by the way, I've only been in the corporate world except for the last six months or nine months when I haven't. I was in the corporate world for, as I said, almost 50 years. Yeah, you'd put up with all sorts of different things, but it's in many ways, corporations are microcosms of society. Not everything is easy. Not everybody gives you a break. You know, not everybody is rooting for you.

Sometimes your luck runs out, whatever. As I look back though, on my experience, I had incredible mentors that taught me a lot. I had tremendous amount of luck and great opportunity. And so I don't think of any of the bad stuff it's all I'm grateful for it all

bygones bygones bygones be bygones bygones over here just a couple more questions we only have just a short time

by the way I don't think Michael tried to kneecap me but that's I never used that expression I think he tried to kneecap him but I think he didn't get it no let's go on.

All right, whatever. Hey, Bob, Rich Greenfield. Thanks for doing this. Suits suck? That's your T-shirt? Wow. Okay. You're not wearing a suit.

That's the new generation. You're not wearing a suit. I wasn't sued for a while. You're not wearing a suit anymore. I wasn't sued for a while. When you oversaw Disney, you saw, I think, the cable network business or broadcasting cable network business was a tremendous growth driver. Basically, for every media company that exists today, it's been sort of the driver of all of their profitability or the vast majority of their profitability. But Kara had Andy on earlier. She's going to have Tim Cook on later. There's no doubt that tech companies are coming for sports rights, coming for programming. What happens to all of these companies? This whole business of cable networks and broadcast networks looks very, very, not just

vulnerable, but starting to enter secular decline, but it's been the cash cow of this entire industry that you've grown up in. That's why everybody's anxious. That's what I call the age of great anxiety, because the businesses that form the underpinning of our traditional media and entertainment world or space or industry are facing competition unlike competition they ever faced before. And it's not going away. In fact, it's getting tougher. And I'm not bullish about certain traditional elements of the media business.

By the way, I'm bullish on Disney because Disney made the pivot to streaming and is leaning into it. They also are buffered by other businesses like their theme park business that is still extremely profitable and will continue to be and differentiated to the point that was made earlier. But if you're just in the channel cable and salad channel business, you have a world to hurt. Okay. Very quickly, one, sorry, one more. I'm sorry.

Go ahead. Hey, Bob, Alex Heath from The Verge. You famously were going to buy Twitter at one point. Oh, I was going to ask that. And you pulled out, and I believe a quote you gave afterwards was, the nastiness is extraordinary. And I'm curious what that specific nastiness was that you found. Oh, you can answer that question.

No, I would love to know what you think. What was the nastiness you found? Here's what happened. We were intent on going into the streaming business. We needed a technology solution. We have all this great IP. We weren't a technology company. How do we get that IP to consumers around the world and build them right and make sure

the language is right and all the different formats around the world? And we were kicking tires left and right. We thought about developing it ourselves, five years, $500 million, too long, too much money. It wasn't the money, it was the time because the world was changing fast. And at the same time, we heard that Twitter was contemplating a sale. We entered that process immediately, looking at Twitter as the solution. Global distribution platform is viewed as sort of a social network platform. Yeah, but you could make it. We were viewing it as something completely different. We could put new sports entertainment on it.

We were going to do TikTok. Reach the world, exactly. And frankly, it would have been a phenomenal solution distribution-wise. Then after we sold the whole concept to the Disney board and the Twitter board, and were really ready to execute a negotiation that was just about done, interestingly enough. I went home, contemplated it for a weekend and thought, I'm not looking at this as carefully as I need to look at it. Yes, it's a great solution from a distribution perspective, but it would come with so many other challenges and complexities that as a manager of a great global brand, I was not prepared to take on. Major distraction and having to manage circumstances

that weren't even close to anything that we had faced before. And this was pre-Trump too, right? And it was pre-Trump, yes. It was pre the 16th presidential election. Correct. So nastiness. First of all, there's a question of how many. Interestingly enough, because I read the news these days about it, we did look very carefully at all of the TikTok, I'm sorry, all of the Twitter users. I guess they're called users. Yes. Yeah. And we, at that point, estimated, with some Twitter's help, that a substantial portion, not a majority, were not real. How many? Did you have?

I don't remember. I don't remember the number. But we discounted the value heavily. 10%? 20%? I don't remember. OK. I don't remember.

That was one. But that was built into our economics. Actually, the deal that we had was pretty cheap. That was built into our economics. Then you have to look, of course, at all the hate speech and potential to do as much harm as good. We're in the business of manufacturing fun at Disney, of doing nothing but good,

even though there are others today that criticize Disney for the opposite, which is wrong. This was just something that we were not ready to take on. And I was not ready to take on as the CEO of a company. And I thought it would have been irresponsible. What do you think about Elon's chances? Can't handicap them. Don't know. Don't know. But I think he got close enough to it to really want it. Yeah. Now the question is, will his want prevail? I just don't know. Well, he doesn't want it now. I don't know. He may be protesting too much. I don't know. Maybe he saw what I saw.

Yeah. Maybe he woke up one day and said, I can't handle this. Yeah. Although he doesn't seem like that type. No. I mean that in a complimentary way. Okay, all right. Bob Iger, everybody. Thank you.

We'll have more conversations from Code in the feed. Stay tuned.