Pivot - Code Drama, WGA Revisited, and The Taylor Swift Effect

Episode Date: September 29, 2023

After a headline-making Code Conference, Kara discusses her interview with Yoel Roth, the former head of trust and safety at Twitter, and also talks about X CEO Linda Yaccarino's interview with CNBC Correspondent Julia Boorstin. Then, Scott addresses his critics and explains what he got wrong about the Writers Strike, and what he still thinks he got right. Plus, how Travis Kelce is seemingly experiencing the Taylor Swift effect.  Check out Kara's interview with Yoel Roth, former head of trust and safety at Twitter, and CNBC Correspondent Julia Boorstin's interview with X CEO Linda Yaccarino in the 'On with Kara Swisher' feed. Follow us on Instagram and Threads at @pivotpodcastofficial. Follow us on TikTok at @pivotpodcast. Send us your questions by calling us at 855-51-PIVOT, or at nymag.com/pivot. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Just go to Indeed.com slash podcast right now and say you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? You need Indeed. Hi, everyone. Scott and I are going to be debriefing code today on the show. After you hear us talk about it, you'll probably want to hear my conversation with former Twitter trust and safety head Yoel Roth, as well as CNBC journalist Julia Boorstin's interview

of Twitter ex-CEO Linda Iaccarino. I'm still going to call it Twitter. I'm sorry. I call Meta Facebook, and that's the way it's going to go. Good news, in any case. You can hear both of these on my other podcast, On with Kara Swisher, today. Search for it wherever you are listening to this. Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm

Kara Swisher, and I'm not on Adderall. Yeah, I saw that. This is Scott Galloway. I'm eating tomato soup and grilled cheese. So let's go back to me. This woman named Ruthie invited me to have lunch at this place called the River Cafe. Everybody knows her. She's like the most powerful woman in Europe because of food. And you know what she did, Kara? What? What? What did she do? Halfway through the lunch. I was pissed off. I was like hungover. I didn't want to go have lunch with some stranger. And I went down there. She's lovely, first off. Okay, where are we going with this? And like halfway through the lunch, I know you're dying to get onto your like code, UL

Roth, I'm in the center of a controversy, blah, blah, blah. But anyways, back to me eating lunch. And this 75-year-old woman, like 20 minutes into the lunch, we don't know each other, she puts her hand on mine and she holds my hand. Oh. And it was very jarring at first. Yeah. And she did three or four more times.

You know what? I really liked it. It was really nice. Yeah. I like when people do that. Certain people, not everybody. I wish I had that confidence to occasionally, like, just hold someone's hand as a means of affirmation or being supportive.

I do not have that confidence. Anyways, it was literally the nicest thing that happened to me this week. It was a strange woman. I would say something and she would look me, and she would hold my hand. That has nothing to do with what we're talking about. It just popped into my mind. I think that's nice. I think that's nice.

I mean, don't go around touching people in London. That would be my advice to you. But that was a very sweet story. Thank you. And I'm glad you're enjoying your— Why do you have grilled cheese? Because I'm loved. What is it?

Grilled cheese and tomato soup? That is a hand. That is someone putting their hand on yours, a grilled cheese and tomato soup. Don't you think? Of the food. That is love. Of food.

That is the hand, pat, pat, pat hand. My best friend's mother, Devorah Markman, used to have everybody over. I probably had more meals at her house than at my house because my mother's British, which is not synonymous with cooking. Food is punishment is what I used to call it. But anyways, she was the most loving person.

I'd walk in and she'd start cooking for me. Oh, that's sweet. You know, my grandmother was like that. She would sit in her kitchen. She was a housewife, essentially. She would cook for us, and everything was delicious. She was a wonderful cook, and it was love. It was really—food was love.

Anyway. So, back to Adderall. You're on Adderall? No, Elon Musk tweeted that I was on Adderall and I foamed at the mouth because he didn't like some interview I didn't do. So I don't know what to say. We're going to explain. We're having a wild time here on the West Coast. I find if I crush Adderall and stick it up my ass and watch a Pam Grier film, I get very focused. I mean, I just lock in.

It's really effective care. It's really effective. Can I make a confession? I have never taken Adderall. I take no drugs, but it's fine. He wants to joke about it. I saw that and you stole my thunder here. I thought, I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume any weekend in Ibiza,

Elon Musk has ingested 10 times the amount of drugs you have done in your life. You don't do anything. Let me just tell you, here's what I've done. I smoked pot once or twice. But you didn't inhale. I don't know. I didn't like it. I don't like smoke. I smoked a cigarette once, never taken cocaine, never taken Adderall. When I had a baby, they gave me one of those opiates and I didn't take them. I threw them out. I just am not a drug person.

I've not tried ecstasy. I've not tried mushrooms. I've not tried, I mean, which makes me kind of like a boring person, but it was funny. I just, whatever. I don't care. I've not, not tried all of those. I know that. I get that.

I get that. Actually, it's not true. I've done marijuana, a lot of alcohol. I did X a couple times in college, and I thought, this I get that. Actually, it's not true. I've done marijuana, a lot of alcohol. I did X a couple of times in college and I thought this is too good. I can never do it again. Oh, really? Did you ever try cocaine? I've never done cocaine.

When I was in high school playing soccer, I got kicked in the face and I always had really bad bloody noses and just decided early on it's probably not the right drug. Also, cocaine, I always felt, back to drugs, in college, I always thought guys who had no game and couldn't get laid on their own used cocaine to try and attract the wrong type of woman. And I always thought cocaine is just an indication you don't have any of your own game. And also, people, when they do cocaine, go into a bathroom, and they sequester. Whereas when people smoke pot, they want everyone to be high, and they want everyone to laugh. Pot's a much cooler drug than cocaine in my mind. Is it?

Never done cocaine. I don't know. People thought in college I was on cocaine because I was so manic, but I was not. Everybody from college, I was not on cocaine. I've never, I've actually only seen it in magazines. I've never actually physically seen cocaine. Anyway, whatever. Elon can say anything he wants about me.

I don't phone with the mouth either. I was actually quite calm. Yesterday at CODE, I interviewed Will Roth, a former head of safety at Twitter. I had interviewed him before back in last November, a little less than a year ago, after which CNBC's Julia Borstein interviewed Linda Iaccarino, CEO of Axe. It's all over the internet. Break it down. Break it down, sister. I will. Let me say, Mary Barra had left and couldn't go because of the strike. Well, let me say, Mary Barra had left and couldn't go because of the strike. And so they asked me to book people.

And I thought, I tried to get Adam Massari from Threads. I wanted someone pertinent. And Yoel has been on our list to re-interview because I interviewed him a year ago. And we didn't interview him before Elon did that tweet that basically implied that he was a pedophile, I guess. A sex criminal. Yeah, exactly. And he had to move out of his house, correct? That's correct. And so I hadn't interviewed him since then. And he had been very,

I would say, kind to Elon, but had problems with the moderation issues. It's only gotten worse. And so I I wanted to talk to him. So, that was it. I found out about it on my flight down to code and then didn't confirm it until, it would be two days ago, I guess. Anyway, yeah, the first day of code, I confirmed it. And he was already in LA, so it worked out and Adam couldn't come. And I also asked Ben Mesrick, he couldn't come. Which happens when you Ben Mesrick, he couldn't come. And which happens when you book things that people can come or not come, especially when it's at the last minute. And I hate you some last minute, because, you know, there was a substantive amount of time that Linda had, I texted her the morning, she was going on like the last at the end of the day,

and told her she her people claimed she didn't get it. I don't know what to say, but we did. But the code people were in touch with her in the morning. I'm sorry. I'm just going to press pause. Why do you have an obligation to clear the schedule with any speaker? I agree.

I never did. I'm not running code, Scott. It's pertinent to have people that are disagreeing near each other. I just don't find anything wrong with it. And anyway, so she had a lot of time. And then also, she had the option to go on before him. And we also put space that they asked for. We did what they asked for. She could have left. She certainly could have left. Not a great look, but she could have left if she felt angry about it. I wasn't holding her there. And she had a Tesla to go, I guess. I don't know. I heard she refused to take questions. Is

that right? I don't know what happened with that, but she just got off the stage and everyone else at Code took questions and she, I don't know what happened there, but she didn't. No, she left. Often people refuse to take questions over the history of code, in my experience. And we say to the crowd at the top of the interview, this person refused to take questions. And I would tell them, I'm going to tell them you refused to take questions. And then typically they would go, oh, okay, I will. You know, like that's my, I try to pressure them into doing it because I think they should take questions. They're CEOs mostly.

So, but I want people to know whether people should take questions. They're CEOs mostly. So, but I want people to know whether people can take questions or not right at the beginning, but that's whatever. I don't know what happened. I don't honestly know what happened. And anyway, so she had a very, she got rattled by Yoel, although when you hear the interview, you're going to be like, why? Yoel just had a disagreement about moderation policies. He had a disagreement over numbers of how well Twitter was doing. And he told his story about what happened after Elon tweeted that. He got death threats, he had to move out He's like, I hope you do well. Here's my advice for you. And we'll play it in a minute. And he was, he was so like, I, I think they need to have more content moderation. It really was. When you listen to it, you'll be like, why in the world did this rattle a CEO? And, and, you know, and of course they're using the excuse of she wasn't ready for it, but,

you know, she should, she didn't have basic numbers when Julia interviewed her. And it was super awkward. And she was obviously angry and couldn't get over it. And to me, if you're the CEO, you got to suck it up and deal with things like that. Anyway, we're running my interview with Yoel and on with Kara Swisher feed today. Two moments I want to highlight in my interview with Yoel, who I like a great deal, and I said so on stage. I think he's gone through hell, and I thought he got attacked previously by Kellyanne Conway. The right wing made him a boogeyman. And during those Twitter files,

they tried to prove that he was the giant censor, and he wasn't. He just, well, he just, they were making editorial decisions and people can disagree with them. But now people are definitely having some problems there. Anyway, first was his advice to Linda. I'll start with Linda. I read the profile of her in the Financial Times by Hannah Murphy. And I was really struck by her talking about the challenges that she experiences with abuse and harassment targeting her. And I truly feel for her.

I genuinely, genuinely do. Nobody should have to experience that. Not a CEO, not a journalist, not me, not anybody. Look at what your boss did to me. It happened to me. It happened after he sang my praises publicly. It happened after I didn't attack him. I didn't attack the company. You quietly left. You wouldn't talk to me. I know that.

And then he did that to me. If not for yourself, for your family, for your friends, for those that you love, be worried. You should be worried. I wish I had been more worried. And so I hope she is thinking about what those risks are and what she might face. He also, at the end, said he hoped she could fix it. He was very, I would say, gallant. He in no way attacked her. And even his Elon comments were, I would say, just like in that voice right there. So another moment I thought you'd find interesting, Scott. So let's get into the real implications of the upcoming election. Who is doing it well? There's Facebook, Instagram slash threads.

There's Blue Sky Massdown slash post, Snapchat. Who is doing it? Who can do it well? Or are they all just like, yeah, we don't have to do it anymore? All right, I'm going to say something really controversial. OK. I think TikTok are doing it well? Or are they all just like, yeah, we don't have to do it anymore. All right. I'm going to say something really controversial. Okay. I think TikTok are doing it well. Oh, wow. Okay.

So let me caveat this by saying I don't use TikTok. I don't allow it on my phone and I don't allow my husband to have it on his phone on our home Wi-Fi. I've also written previously about why I worry from a national security standpoint about TikTok. But of all of the big platforms, of all of the VLOPs, the very large online platforms, as they're called in Europe, only one of them hasn't laid off their trust and safety staff this year. It's TikTok. And they continue to invest heavily in addressing misinformation. They continue to invest heavily in identifying inauthentic behavior. Bracket, would they find it if it was coming from China? I don't know. But I continue to see them actually invest in these areas because they're worried about

getting banned, but they're still doing it. So I think TikTok are doing a good job here. I do want to note that a Forbes article this week revealed that TikTok is using a tool internally. It allows almost all of their employees to access the friends list of high-profile celebrities and public figures on the app, which does create some security risks. So there's that, and there's all issues around TikTok. And you know, I've been pretty tough on TikTok over the years, even though I think it's a terrific app of all things. Some highlights from Julia's Linda Iaccarino interview included Linda asking, who wouldn't want Elon Musk sitting by their side running product? And several people in the audience raised their hand. Julia asked Linda about Elon's plans to move to subscription-based services.

And by the way, may I say, he said it again on a spaces that he would. So she should have known that. But let's play that. Elon Musk just announced a new monthly fee for users. And my question for you is, do you want to start charging all users of X, as he said, and how many users do you think you will lose as a result? Can you repeat? Elon Musk announced you're moving to an entirely subscription-based service, nothing free about using X. Did he say we're moving to an entirely subscription-based service. Nothing free about using X.

Did he say we were moving to it specifically or is thinking about it? He said that's the plan. Yeah. So did he consult you before he announced that? We talk about everything. It's pretty awkward. He did, in fact, say they were. Julie also asked Linda about a report in the information saying that TwitterX had cut half its election integrity team

after promising to expand it. Here's the exchange. Well, today there was an article out in the information that reported that all these people had been fired. I think they referenced three, and that isn't entirely accurate, but he also said there was only one person at the company to reference what elon musk tweeted in response to information article

he said that yes the team that was the global uh election integrity team um it was the the disinformation election fraud this was the team focused on that must confirm that they had been fired and he said that this team had previously undermined election integrity. Over a billion people are going to vote in 2024. It's not just in the U.S. Election integrity is an issue all around the world. And it's an issue we take very seriously. And contrary to the comments that were made, there is a robust and growing team at X that is wrapping their arms around election integrity. And it is a spectrum of skill set and discipline from operations to brand safety, and it fights platform manipulation, disinformation, right? It captures everything that we need to protect on our platform. It's not only one person that was referenced. It's not only three people.

We are, as a matter of fact today, added two people to the team. So I can't argue a portion of an article that manipulates information. But I will tell you. Are you saying the information article about the layoffs is manipulating information? No, I said that it was partial information. So one of the other articles... Again, I think it only said three people, so it was partial information. And I really got to go. What do you think? I don't know what to say. Well, the question is, has she been put in just an untenable situation, or is she in over her head as the CEO of a media company which has to stand up to this type of scrutiny regularly? The answer is yes.

She's been put in a terrible situation. She's like the circus clown behind an elephant scooping up shit every five minutes. And it's ridiculous that she would call herself a CEO, that this guy, the owner, is tweeting out their strategy, and she can't even respond to it. And she's being poorly coached. On the question, anything around UL, she should have said, it could have been so easy. What happened to UL was unforgivable. Under my watch, that won't happen again. And I commit to every employee at X that we have a safe, productive environment and that we will do our best to not only shut down hate crime on the platform, but anything vestiges of hate crime that jump into the real world, we will not tolerate. And that's my personal commitment, as long as I am the CEO of this company. So you know what that echoes of? When Kellyanne Conway was faced with the truth that was inconvenient for her, she used the term alternative facts. What did she say? That was partial information. And as the CEO, she should be able to go, this is what is going on with trust and safety. It is three different departments.

There are 72 people. We're growing to 90. Here's the amount of money we spend. Here's the person in charge. Here is the data, how many accounts we have kicked off for misinformation. Instead, she started accusing the information. It's this far-right talking point. Let me just repeat a lie over and over, thinking that if I repeat this lie over and over enough, it sounds less like a lie, and I'm going to attack the media. Oh, the information that was partial, that wasn't true. They're not focusing on our positives. She's the CEO. She knows more about what they're doing than anybody. Show up with data.

Or she doesn't. I think in the case of Elon saying that in the spaces, she didn't know. He says things all the time. And I think that's where she runs into trouble for herself. Like, did he say that? Like, you know, did my kid do that? That kind of thing. And I think it puts her, you're right, in an untenable position. But my feeling is, as always, is these CEOs are not our friends. We don't, you know, they should be able to answer questions under any kind of pressure, right? Like, you know, I didn't have like Jonathan Greenblatt from the ADL bungee jump from the ceiling at her. Like, I didn't like, it wasn't like he suddenly appeared off the side of the stage, which she should still be able to handle that. But it was literally, they knew about it well enough in advance and she wasn't prepared.

You're right. There was several people who are public relations people said, here's how she could have answered that, and he could have moved on. It was a great opportunity for her. And in my opinion, she just whiffed on it. Yeah, she was mad. She was mad. She was angry and rattled. And, you know, I had said on stage that I thought of her as a great advertising person. And she thought that apparently seemed like she was saying it was an insult. I wasn't hired here to do advertising, which I think is probably an issue for her because she really wanted to be CEO. But I wasn't trying to pull her down.

She is. She's very confident. She's got a great reputation at NBC. And, you know, I just, it was really a disastrous interview. And she's, they're looking for any way to blame. One of the things that really got me irritated, although I could care less, is several of Elon's stands said, now they're really going to have trouble booking people at Code. Did you all see the Mark Zuckerberg sweat incident? Did you all see so many interviews where there was so much testiness and we had never had a problem booking people?

That's a big part of the reason people tune into Code. That's correct. And it's a big part of the reason why good CEOs come because it's just such a, like, that should be our consideration, booking. Like, oh, no, they'll be mad at us. What can we, whatever can we do? And, oh no, they'll be mad at us. Whatever can we do? And there's so many conferences. The reason we started Code in the first place,

because so many conferences were giant, sucking sounds to CEOs. And we just didn't do that. And over 20 years, hugely profitable. Over 20 years, people came back. Who came back? Steve Jobs came back. Elon came back. We had so many beefs there.

And by the way, let me pay a compliment to Elon. He always stayed and answered, right? And he didn't get rattled. He got mad. But he certainly, you know, only one time did he threaten to leave. But I got to say, he answered questions. Her weakest moment was when Julia asked her about, your boss is saying you're going to all subscription.

And she said, can you ask that again? In other words, I don't know how to answer that. I mean, that was the one question she knew she was going to get, and she was unprepared. And then this, I got to run, so I'm going to go out on a limb here. I'm going to guess she's flying private. And as someone who occasionally flies private, guess what? You don't got to run. This is, I don't like this heat. I am leaving this kitchen. And at Code, I mean, she came across,

my sense is she's taking leadership training from Kevin McCarthy. She comes across as someone, she comes across as someone who is so controlled by someone who is out of control that she can't handle. And it just makes her look weak. And she's trying to thread this needle, this impossible needle. Well, one last thing is Julia asked the question, is she the CEO in name only? Sino, right? It's making, using that rhino reference. Oh, really? How did she respond to that? She said, not nice. It was really strange. And I was like, you didn't see that one coming?

Like, that's the, you know, all times. She even felt rattled. She felt like we were unfair to her. She didn't see that one coming from Julia? Come on. That's an obvious question. Is Elon running the company or are you? That has been out there literally forever.

And she seemed irked that it got asked versus just answer it. No, I'm the CEO. He obviously has a big, important role. He runs product, etc. And so, and that she was attempting to do that, you know, who wouldn't want to sit next to Elon and do product, which was a mistake, because people raised their hands. Not the whole room, for sure. It was a small amount of people. The reason other people didn't raise their hands. Except for us Jews with gay friends. Except for us. She also said Ilan was just going to do a space with a lot of Jewish leaders and stuff. She should have seen so many of these coming, regardless of Yoel Roth. And again, I urge you to please listen to his interview

and you will see there is nothing rattling about this guy. And by the way, Cara, and I would recommend this to all of our listeners, I can't tell you what an upgrade in my mental health it has been to not be on Twitter. 15 minutes ago, I didn't even know about this stuff, and I pulled up my thing, and I saw your name, and I went, what's going on?

And then I saw this bullshit around Yoel, and I saw these cringey clips from her interview, where she just looks terrible. I thought, by the way, everything I saw your name and I went, what's going on? And then I saw this bullshit around Yoel and I saw these cringy clips from her interview where she just looks terrible. I thought, by the way, everything I saw of Julia, I thought she did a great job. She did a fantastic. May I just say, Julia Boorstein, it was fair and tough in a very tense situation.

The call sign for any great journalist in person is forceful yet dignified. That's what she was. Right? And by the way, when CEOs are able to respond to those types of comments, they end up looking better. Correct. They show their mettle. That's correct. Right? That's correct.

You got to face the heat to see someone's real mettle. But what I would say, and I would recommend to you and all of our listeners, take 90 days off of Twitter and you're going to realize it's a very small world on Twitter, and it's a much bigger world out here. And you're going to be shocked at how many nights and weekends you're pissed off or upset over just stupid shit that happens on Twitter. It's just, it's not, it is a net negative. I used to think meta, I've always thought big tech is a net positive. I actually think meta is a net negative when you add up all the teen depression, the weaponization of elections the polarization

I'm now believing that Twitter, despite all the positives around getting a pulse on news, an interesting way to market products, I now believe it's a net negative I think it causes so much agita so many good people end up not liking each other it defines misinformation and it has just

gotten it is not a fun product it's become it is not it's a really vexing product it's not like it's become a sew the sewage system of a sewer it's just become oh you're funny it's just become awful and and i i really i really feel for her I think she's probably this very talented executive who's lifted up. This is her big moment. And she's just got to be like, what the fuck have I done? I think she's a believer in Elon. I do. I do. I don't know about that. But I think she is a fine executive. And again, she doesn't think it's a compliment, but it is, Linda. Well, maybe at some point she'll be a CEO. Maybe she'll actually be a CEO. Well, I wish she would stand up on her own and say what she thinks. I think, I wish she would stand up in certain cases, you know, but it's always taking his side. And

all I can say is I've heard from a lot of current and former Twitter people who were thankful for that Yoel interview. It was dignified and thought Julia did a good job and that their boss should be able to handle the heat. And, you know, they'll try to make it about me or anybody else except themselves. And the problem is they weren't prepared. And there's some vexing questions about the site. So learn to answer them. That's all I have to say. And we're not, you know, if you need a friend and journalists aren't nice to you,

as I said on Twitter, get yourself a dog. We're going to take a quick break. When we come back, speaking of people who are vexed, talk about the writer's strike and whether we did or didn't call it. Fox Creative. This is advertiser content from Zelle. When you picture an online scammer, what do you see?

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We need to have those awkward conversations around what do you do if you have text messages you don't recognize? What do you do if you start getting asked to send information that's more sensitive? What do you do if you start getting asked to send information that's more sensitive? Even my own father fell victim to a, thank goodness, a smaller dollar scam, but he fell victim. And we have these conversations all the time. So we are all at risk and we all need to work together to protect each other. Learn more about how to protect yourself at vox.com slash zelle. And when using digital payment platforms, remember to only send money to people you know and trust. Thumbtack presents the ins and outs of caring for your home.

Out. Uncertainty. Self-doubt. Stressing about not knowing where to start. In. Plans and guides that make it easy to get home projects done. Out. Word art. Sorry, Live Laugh Lovers. In. Knowing what to do, when to do it, and who to hire. Start caring for your home with confidence. Download Thumbtack today. Okay, Scott, we're back. I also at Code and a much more enjoyable interview, interviewed John Lovett. We talked a lot about of crooked media. And we talked a lot about podcasting, etc, etc. But he made a very funny joke, which was, did a union kill Scott's dog? It's really funny. dog. It's really funny. Because literally all the writers are mad at you because even you said you,

we said we call it which we did, we were talking about the timing people. They were saying they got an amazing job, and that you were wrong, wrong, wrong, and how dare you for being wrong, and they got really mad at you. And then I was dragged into it. Although I didn't agree with you on everything I thought but anyway, I did agree that tech is the enemy. So talk shows are getting ready for returns following the W.A.'s board approval of a contract agreement with the studio. Scripted shows are still on hold given the actor's strike. There's some good news on that front side after and the studios are set to resume negotiations on Monday. It looks like this is going to wind down, as we did say and called it. The writers appear to be pretty happy about how things shook out. The WGA negotiating committee called the deal exceptional.

One thing, again, as I said, they're not happy about is our commentary on the strike. And by the way, we invited WGA people to this show. Just so you know, writers say, why not talk to writers? We invited them. They did not get back to us. We'll read a tweet instead. A writer named Dave Metzger tweeted,

both of them said loudly and repeatedly that we should take whatever we're given and be grateful for it. The strikes would end in disaster for us. They refused to talk to a single writer on the air and they're absolutely wrong over and over again on the issue. We did not refuse. It's ridiculous. You don't know what you're talking about. So you were spot on with a prediction when the strike would end. You've also been a strong critic of the strike and unions. You didn't think that writers had leverage. You thought it was a wrong moment in this fight. Something else they took issue with was your comparison to the British coal miner strike. You said in May, in No Mercy, No Mouse, which is your newsletter, I believe that the Writers Guild of America, like the UK's

National Union of Mine Workers back in the 80s has incorrectly assessed the situation will exit this strike severely impaired. You also said this on our show. Dan Hamamura tweeted this passage with a comment, look, you got to hand it to Scott. He's consistently wrong since the beginning. He said the other day that writers be framing this as a monumental victory, no matter what the terms were. We also got this email from a listener named Zach that I'll read. We got a lot of emails. I'm a huge fan of the show and I'm finding myself really perplexed by Scott's stance on the conclusion that WGA strike was some final nail in the coffin of American unions. The WGA took a bold position, held their membership together, and brought the studios to the table at the moment of their peak negotiating power and achieved a deal that is an unmitigated success across every issue that was on their docket. achieved a deal that is an unmitigated success across every issue that was on their docket. I think Scott's broader comments about union efficacy in the United States over recent years have been right on the money, but it's hard to look at this example of very public and very effectively executed strike and not think this is a big win for organized labor. I wouldn't be

surprised if it inspires other collective action in our country over the coming years. I thought, that's a really nice letter, by the way. That's a very fair letter from Zach. So, why don't you respond? Why don't you respond? Because I certainly love unions compared to you. Although I do think that you were making some excellent points about leverage, and I thought tech was the problem. But go ahead. Well, OK. Let me just say I love labor.

I just think the construct representing 11% of labor is not doing an effective job for all 100%. First off, let me acknowledge, I said it would break the backs of the union, the writers' union, similar to the coal miners. I was wrong. The writers' union is going to be intact. I think they did get some, I don't know, substantive concessions. But I don't, quite frankly, I think there's some liberal media bias here calling this thing. They call it exceptional. The media takes the bait and says substantial victory. And I've read through this agreement. So let's just talk about it. They're getting, they garnered an

increase of 5%, minimum increases of compensation, 5%, then 4% at the three-year deal, and then 3.5%. So that's 12.5%. Now, you could discount it back because they're not getting the other four and the other 3.5% to the years two and three. But let's just call it 12.5%. Let's just give them the benefit of the doubt. If it's a three-year deal and they forced everyone to make zero for five months, they got to get 14% just to get back to even water. But let's say, well, Scott, that's not fair because those increases will help them negotiate a new deal in three years. All right. Since their last deal, inflation is up 10%. I think any economist is going to look at this deal and go, hey, writers, not any of your fault, but as a function of the economy and the fact there's too many of you, you are now making less

money on a real wage level after this deal than you were when you struck the last deal three years ago. The UAW has been offered 20% and they've rejected it. Why? Because the auto industry is strong and the dynamics of the streaming and the media market are weak and they're calling a 5% increase in wages exceptional, there are some really wonderful things they got. The best in my view is they got minimum riders in rooms. Let me tell you what a studio person told me. They said, but Kara is also a maximum now. Now it's in print that it's a maximum. I saw that too. I'm trying to give them the benefit of the doubt here. It's a really important thing because the way I see this is basically

they have forced the studios to invest in the future and in an apprenticeship program. Because what it says is, we need more junior people in the room to learn such that someday they can make- Which we support. And that's a great idea here. They're AI consolidations.

They're things like they can't, AI can't write or rewrite literary material. The AI-generated material will not be considered source material under the MBA. When you read the agreement around AI, first off, it's a total nothing burger, and it shows that both parties don't understand AI. in the voice of Nora Ephron, what AI is being used is the writers will use AI. And as someone who's all over AI and writes a lot and thinks of themselves as a creator, AI comes back with really vanilla generic shit. And also, even if the studio wanted to use AI, it's impossible to figure out what is right now AI generated and what isn't. And the lesson I would say to writers and every creator is that AI is not going to take your job. AI is not going to take a writer's job. A writer who understands and can leverage AI is going to take your job. They want, they got an increase in foreign residuals. It is so complicated. I can't

understand if it's good or bad. The director's got that too, right? They do get a, that's, but that's more money. They're getting an additional half a point and maybe an additional point contribution to their pensions. That's good. But they've also tried to run and say that they get a 50% increase in compensation if 20% of the user base of the subscribers watch a show. I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume that 20 percent of subscribers, that's like five shows a year. And those people don't need any help. The people who wrote Succession, Game of Thrones, The Last of Us, and Stranger Things, and maybe Squid Games, which I bet are the only five shows. I mean, what is even the

denominator for Apple or Amazon Prime? I bet there are literally a handful of shows. So the way I look at this, honestly, trying to be honest about it, is they got back to kind of even water from what writers were making. Inflation's up 10% in the last three years. And they're bragging that they got 5%. And then to be fair, they're going to get another 12 and a half. They got some other goodies on residuals. But most of this, when you read it, they said, okay, make this press release sound more bulky

and more impressive than it is. And here's, I just want to move to what they should do. And I think there's a big opportunity here. I think this is a really interesting moment. And I want to not, I was wrong. I thought the union was going to go away and they were going to get less than this. They got more. Congratulations. I would argue riders are now, here and now, being paid less on an inflation-adjusted basis than they were three years ago. But also, we all have to

deal with inflation. So maybe that's not a fair apples-to-apples comparison. Ford and GM have offered the UAW 20% and they've rejected it. And the writer's strike, the writer's union is claiming that a 5% increase is exceptional because it's a different dynamic. It's a different dynamic in the industry. And this is the moment, and this is the opportunity. We need to start something called the International Sisterhood of Creators. And we go to every content company in the world, from Axel Springer to Time Warner to Nikkei to Naspers to Le Monde, all of them, and say, we're forming a consortium. You're going to pay for our lobbying and our legal fees, which will be $100 million. If you're Vox, your share of that is $80,000. If you're Time Warner,

it's $3 million. And we are going to go create, through lobbying and through lawsuits and through unanimity of participation, an additional revenue stream. Because this is the key around negotiation as it relates to labor. One, you need leverage. And then two, you've got to go after the biggest pile of money. They didn't have a lot of leverage here, and they weren't going after the biggest pile of money. They were going after the smallest, an industry sector that is in decline. And they say to Penguin Portfolio, Random House, they say to every author, they say to every content maker, every TV producer, you are now part of this consortium, and we are going to Alphabet, we are going to Meta, we are going to Microsoft, and we're saying

our AI has sensed that there is now a database published by a great article in The Atlantic showing what books have been crawled by AI. Guess what? Two of my books have been crawled by AI. And when I type, write a chapter on raising young men in the voice of Scott Galloway, it comes- This was in The Atlantic. Explain to people where that's from. I don't know how it's named. A gentleman wrote an article in The Atlantic.

where that's from. I don't know how it's named. A gentleman wrote an article in The Atlantic, and in that article is a database. You can type in your name, and it shows what books have been crawled by generative AI that you have written. And my books, The Four and The Altruist of Happiness, have been crawled by generative AI. And when I type in, write a chapter on whatever it is, Raising Young Men and The Voice of Scott Galloway, it comes back with something remarkably similar to something I would have written. But no one's paying Penguin Portfolio a random house. So we create this federation, this consortium, whatever you want to call it.

We ask Barry Diller to come out of retirement and head it. And then he goes to these guys with all the money who have increased their market capitalization by $4 trillion in the last two and a half years. And we go to them and say, OK, we have figured out that a third of your content, 10% of your content of the best content that you have is being informed by our IP, which we have, and I love your word, provenance. And we are going to get lobbyists and lawyers, and we are first going to legally establish that you cannot use it without our permission.

And then this consortium is going to license it to one of those players. And one of those players could pay $100 billion or more over four years for the increase in market capitalization. They would recognize if all of a sudden Bard or Claude had access and could crawl the world's greatest creator content. We are fucking going after pennies, bitch. Let's go after the Benjamins. Labor, do you want money or do you want to put out press releases that you've got in an exceptional deal that takes you almost back to where inflation is? Let's get our heads out of our asses. There's a ton of people creating creative content. Let's go where the money is. This is our moment. Yeah, I would agree. I think

tech is, as I've said over and over again. Notice how quiet they've been? Yeah. Notice how quiet? I know. Let's hope they don't notice. Notice what we're doing. While they're angry at Bob Iger, we're over here. Or Scott Galloway. Open AI is raising money at a $95 billion market cap. And guess what? They're crawling all your shit. They're crawling up everyone's ass. This is the way, this is what they miss. The heyday, the golden age was when you did Seinfeld

and then it got new use and new people started creating that IP and you got a residual. Well, the new golden goose of residuals is your content being crawled by generative AI. That is the next residuals. Let's go get that shit. Yes, that's correct. For all creators. And they do say they want to pay you. They've been making the sounds of, of course we want to pay you. But it reminds me so much of early Google, where I am telling you, they grabbed books when they wanted, they grabbed TV shows and closed captioning when

they wanted it. These people do not have respect for your data. They don't. But let's look at the dynamics. If you go to the Canadian Broadcast Association, and you go to the BBC and say, we want you to be a part of this consortium, we're going to ask for a little bit of money for the lobbying and the legal. And we have Barry Diller heading it up. And they say, and by the way, it's nothing but upside for you, nothing but upside. And we're going to create an entirely new revenue stream. What do you think if we showed real unanimity and leverage here that one of these generative AI players would pay to be able to crawl? And if we could establish you can't,

every piece of premium content out there from every media company in the world. Because here's the thing, none of them are going to be differentiated on technology or be able to maintain differentiation because they will use their own generative AI to reverse engineer every other technical innovation across every other AI,

and they will all be at exact parity. So what is the point of differentiation and leverage? The content they get to crawl. So let's sequester it all under one umbrella and then license it to the highest bidder. 5%? 5%? Yeah.

We're going after pennies. Scott, do you need to kill your dog? I just need to know. The dog is safe. The dog is safe. That was the best joke. See, I love John because he has issues with you. And he gives a good joke.

I love John. And then he talked about it in a very – there's a lot of really – Yeah, and also that we're hiding. I went on Billy Ray. Any union person that wants to invite me on a podcast, I went on Billy Ray's podcast. I've been a member of the AFL-CIO. I was a member of a union when I was a box boy. Here's the thing. I just want them to do more money for the 89%, do better for the 89% that aren't represented by unions. I mean, no one wants to do the real math here. They made zero for

five months. They made zero for five months, and they're excited about getting a 5% payment? Several people told me that didn't matter. Tell Scott that doesn't matter. And I was like, I'm not going to do that. They didn't have to pay rent. Yeah, they were like, because, I don't know. It was, I did, I, this was like, I think it does. Like, you didn't work for this long. I think most people, they, you know, they, here's the thing.

When you win something that's just, and I think some people think it's, it's not a home run. It's just not. It's a second base conservatively, third base if you really want to push it. But you have to say you won. This is a hand job from your cousin at Thanksgiving. Okay. Oh, my God. And they're not going to like that one either, Scott Galloway.

And by the way, what happened to the vast majority of workers at all of these shows that couldn't make any money or the $3 billion that the California economy lost? Who's paying them back? Did they get an extra 5%? Yeah, I think that's a fair point. The real thing is tech is your problem, which is we're trying to warn you. But, you know, you can be mad at us. Calling Barry Diller and all creators. Yes. Right? Let's go get some real money here. Right, which he is doing, by the way.

He doesn't complain at all. He just does it. Like, that's why I like dealing with him. The point is that all creators, anyone who writes the jingle for a podcast, is the gaffer, the light gal, the sound gal, all of us, all of us writing books, doing podcasts. We are painting the mother of all Chinese wall fences for big tech right now. They are making trillions, and we're celebrating 5%.

Yeah, I would agree with you, Scott. This and this, I agree. I think people should really pay attention to tech. We all do think that. And, Evie, before we go on a break, I'd like to thank Twitter user, at Geebs, who said, pivot, quote, sounds like one of the worst podcasts ever created. Thank you, Geebs.

We appreciate that. He doesn't like the name? Doesn't like the name or doesn't like us? No, they never listen to it. That's the problem. A lot of those commenters on Twitter just literally don't listen to us because it's much more. Get off Twitter. Yeah, get off Twitter. That us because it's much more. Get off Twitter.

Yeah, get off Twitter. That's our. Sell your Tesla. Get off. Get off Twitter. Yeah, you can keep your Tesla. Hang out with your great thing. Boom.

Happy. There you go. Happy. Okay. And have old ladies touch your hand. Ruthie. Ruthie. You made him feel better.

I'm not going to be touching your hand at any time soon. You would love this one. I'm sure I would. You would love feel better. I'm not going to be touching your hand at any time soon. You would love this woman. I'm sure I would. You would love this woman. It's going to turn out to be like a really famous author, a guru. I know that. She's a force. I mean, literally, you would love this woman.

The two of you. That would be like sodium and chloride and nitro and glycerin. All right. I'm going to meet her, and we're going to pat each other's hands. Okay. All right. I'm glad you went. Say yes to these things, Scott Galloway.

I need to. I need to say yes. Say yes. I need to say yes. Yes. Yes. That's how I met Amanda Katz. I said yes.

You know, it was a hard no for me. Code. They're like, do you want to come? Nope. I'm not going to code. Nope. That was such a hard no. I know.

But you know what you're going to do for me? When the book comes out, we've been invited to do a live pivot in San Francisco. And you're doing it for Kara Swisher. You could stay at my house anytime, Scott. Seriously. Anytime you're in San Francisco. It's a beautiful house. Seriously.

I will bring you grilled cheese and tomato soup, and I will pat your hand. Anyway, go ahead. This is a total stereotype. I imagine literally a lesbian palace. I imagine Tracy Chapman playing guitar in the living room and Subarus everywhere. Is that wrong? Is that wrong? Yes, she's, I've met her many times. She's, she's really interesting. And I did an interview with her. This is just a side, when, right before Fast Car came out, when she was moving upwards.

And I, you could tell it was going to take off. This, this, this album was astonishing. The whole album that she, that album, her debut album, really. And I did an interview with her at, you're not going to believe this, a women's festival called Sister Fire that was in Washington. I'm sorry, what part of that is not believable? It was called Sister Fire. What part of that is not believable? I really, every time I had to say it, I cringe. Sisterfire.

And she was playing Frisbee in every, I tried to ask her questions and she's very shy. And she only answered in single word answers. So she just wasn't interested in PR or reporters. And I was sitting there at Sisterfire on a very hot day trying to get Tracy Chapman to complete a sentence. Oh, by the way, we need new music for Pivot. And they keep coming back with the lamest shit ever. I got invited to Florence and the Machine by Florence here at the O2. If Florence or Tracy Chapman want to license us at a reasonable rate a song for Pivot, we need a new song. Or if anyone has for Pivot. We need a new song,

or if anyone has any ideas, but we need a new song. We should crowdsource this. We do have to have the rights, because we respect rights. We respect writers and songwriters' rights, and we would not take their things like tech companies. Okay, we're going to go on a break. When we come back, we'll talk about why Taylor Swift and Travis Kelsey romance rumors mean big business and discuss the origins of Scott's best buddy, Joey Bag of Donuts. As a Fizz member, you can look forward to free data, big savings on plans, and having your unused data roll over to the following month, every month. At Fizz, you always get more for your money. Terms and conditions for our different programs and policies apply. Details at Fizz.ca.

Okay, Scott, we're back. This has to be quick. I know it will be for you. Did you see Taylor Swift has a new boyfriend? That means a new album. That means a week-long relationship and an album and a tour. She's rumored to be dating Kansas City Chiefs Travis Kelsey's experience, the Taylor Swift effect, after Taylor took a trip to watch Kelsey play in Kansas.

He's a very good football player, by the way. He's actually a phenomenon himself. His merch saw a 400% increase, making him one of the top five selling NFL players. The game viewership saw Taylor jump two ratings on the show, an 8% jump in female viewers age 12 to 17, which is incredible. This woman is like-

If you are really committed to this show and its success, you'd start having sex with Taylor Swift. All broads lead to the same place here, Cara. You know, there's all these rumors that she's gay on the internet. She's just gonna ignore that. Yeah, I'm gonna ignore it. But there are rumors she's gay on the internet,

which I would love to marry Taylor Swift. By the way, I hope they have a mess of kids. If they had, I would like them to have a dozen kids, and I would take those kids and start an army and invade Australia. They would woo them, and they would make them feel safe with a ballad, and then they'd come in with the muscle. Can you please focus? This is really interesting.

She has the ability to, like, she got all these people to vote. I know, I know. Her marketing prowess. Hot Girl Summer, Taylor Swift, Beyonce, and Barbie. No, no, but I'm serious. Take it seriously. She's a phenomenon. I get it. I know, I know. Her marketing prowess. Hot Girl Summer, Taylor Swift, Beyonce, and Barbie. No, no, but I'm serious. Take it seriously. She's a phenomenon. I get it.

This woman has economic power. Not just a phenomenon. I want you to talk about the brand and economic power of this. And the Republicans are attacking her now, which I'm like, oh, no, don't. Please, or please do. Please do. Keep doing it. Well, can I just ask you, what would you do next if you were her?

I'm going to try to get an answer out of you about marketing. What would I do next? Yeah, what would you do as her, given her economic power? I mean, if I were her, I'd get a big cocaine habit, but that's because I'm flawed and can't handle success. You know what? What should she do? Exactly the same fucking thing. She's an inspiration. She doesn't have a ton of surgery. She doesn't use foul language like me. She doesn't disparage people. She has great production value. She works her ass off. She pays her people really well.

Girl, keep on being you. There's nothing she... I have absolutely no advice for Taylor Swift. I do love that the Republicans are like, who is she anyway? And you're like, oh my God, please keep doing it because you will lose the election based on attacking her. It's not a really good thing to attack Taylor Swift at this moment in time, at least. Anyway, one more topic. We got a ton of listener emails on this week.

The origin of Joey Bag of Donuts. Our smart listeners have informed us that Joey can be traced back to comedian Mike Birbiglia, who was in a Taylor Swift video. Anti-hero. He's fantastic. I'm going to his one-man show in London. I'm taking my six-year-old. Go backstage and say hi. I love, he's great.

I did a great interview with him. Let's listen to Mike Birbiglia. And I go, oh, my brother Joe worked here last summer. And his eyes lit up. And he goes, Joey Bag of Donuts? Yo, brothers, Joey Bag of Donuts? Yo, brothers, Joey Bag of Donuts? We love Joey Bag of Donuts. Anyway, Scott, that's where it's from, just so you know.

So I didn't know that was the original reference. It's a true story. My reference, I was, as one does when you're living in New York, I had an apartment down in South Beach, and I went out a few times with a woman. And we were talking about something, and she said, yeah, some Joey Bagadon invites me on his boat and expects me to be his girlfriend. That's literally where I remember hearing it for the first time. Wow. Okay.

She was probably referencing Mike. I love when these things get out of the culture. I think it's really interesting. Thank you to everyone who chimed in to shed light on this very important subject that a lot of people did of Joey Bag of Donuts. If you've got a question of your own that you'd like answered, and I think we did here, send it our way. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. Okay, we've got a short amount of time left. Let's get to some predictions.

Scott, you have a prediction. Go ahead. Kevin McCarthy and Linda Iaccarino are putting on a masterclass on what it means not to be a leader. And they refuse to stand up to the craziest wing of their party. In one instance, it's far-right Republicans.

In the other instance, it's an owner who's reckless. And it's never the wrong time to do the right thing. And both of them refuse to do the right thing. And ultimately, leaders like that fall because they lose the respect. I think one or both of them has gone by the end of the year because I think they're demonstrating just such incredible weakness. And they literally just look like someone- But do they have strength, Scott? They don't. Either of them don't have strength. Not strength as a person, but do they have power? Because he is subject to these people voting. I think if Speaker McCarthy had gotten up and said,

I am not going to be held hostage by people on the far left or the far right. I'm going to do what's right for this country. Enough already. You don't know how to take yes for an answer. We need to solve this budget crisis, and then we need to get back to the good work of reining in- You kind of said that. Out of control- You kind of said that, but go ahead.

This impeachment bullshit. I agree. I mean, he's just being flopped around like a Kong ball. Anyways, he needs to risk his job. Leadership is every once in a while saying, you know what? So be it. This isn't the pursuit of power. It's the pursuit of what's right. And the people who can demonstrate that end up with more power. and I apologize. But both of them are literally a masterclass and what it means to be a weak leader and ultimately lose your leadership position because people do want leaders to push back on them. Occasionally, a leader stands up and says, no, guys, stop it. You're wrong. And I realize you can fire me. Now I'm going to virtue. I've sat on boards where hedge funds put me on the board and the hedge fund calls me and says, we want this, this, and this. I'm like, well, I disagree. And until you remove me from the board, I'm going to virtue. So I've sat on boards where hedge funds put me on the board and the hedge fund calls me and says, we want this, this and this.

I'm like, well, I disagree. And until you remove me from the board, I'm going to make my own decisions. And they respect that. Not everyone does. I mean, he look, Kevin McCarthy allowed this move to vacate by a single person. So he doesn't have the power. He can't get the votes. He can't whip the votes.

In Linda's case, she's she's unusually sunny towards Elon on Twitter, too. By the end of the year, one or both of them no longer hold their position. People don't respect, you can't hold a leadership position and never demonstrate leadership. At some point, people decide you're the wrong person. Or be constantly in agreement with your boss, your obvious boss. In this case of Kevin McCarthy, it's Trump. And in the case of Linda, it's Elon. And so you do have to disagree with your boss. It's very powerful. So there you go. Good prediction. It's a very good prediction. And I really appreciated you doing the union thing. I think you did a good

job explaining yourself and doing, you know, making a defense and also talking about what you thought about it. And I appreciate that. That showed leadership, Scott. Anyway, Scott, read us out. Actually, Cara, I think you've had a wonderful few days because you're awesome. Please read us out. Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Anderdutt engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows, Mia Silverio, and Gaddy McBain. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back next week with another breakdown of all things tech and business.