Pivot - Code Galore, No More Instagram for Kids, and Friend of Pivot Jim Bankoff

Episode Date: September 28, 2021

Code has begun! Scott helps Kara prep for her conversations with Elon Musk, Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella, Netflix Co-CEO Ted Sarandos, and many more. Plus, Facebook puts Instagram for Kids on pause, and what are the implications of China's crypto ban? Then, Friend of Pivot, Chairman and CEO of Vox Media, Jim Bankoff. Stay tuned to the Pivot feed to hear full interviews from Code! You can find Jim on Twitter at @bankoff. Tell him how much you love the Pivot team. Send us your Listener Mail questions, via Yappa, at nymag.com/pivot.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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tells you which leads are worth knowing, and makes writing blogs, creating videos, and posting on social a breeze. So now, it's easier than ever to be a marketer. Get started at HubSpot.com slash marketers. Get started at HubSpot.com slash marketers. Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.

And a dog is in the City of Angels. That's right. You're welcome. You're welcome. Here we are at Code. Here we are. Here we are at Code. I'm actually in a studio in West Hollywood taping this because I just did an interview with Monica Lewinsky. Sorry, I'm late.

How about you? It's good, except this place smells like pot. So I'm in like a hot box. You say that like it's a bad thing. I feel like I'm going to be very light for Code. Well, lunch is at noon. Lunch is at noon. We're going to talk about everything.

We're going to chat about some of the big headlines. First up, Facebook is pulling the brakes on Instagram for kids. The head of Instagram, Adam Masseri, announced on Monday that Facebook will pause the project, in quotes. The app has been targeted toward children younger than 13. Scott, I'm just going to let you go. Well, just before we even jump into that, just being in Los Angeles, you know, there's an app. I mean, this is really wild. There's an app in Los Angeles that you can download and you can have drugs delivered to your house real time.

And it's not age gated. You can have drugs delivered to your house even if you're under 18. And you know what the app's called? What? Instagram. Get it? But here's called? What? Instagram. Ha ha ha. Get it? But here's the thing. I know it. Just for all... I don't know how to get young women off of Instagram and to not have more

suicidal thoughts, but I do know. I do know how to get young men off of Instagram. How? You porn. Oh my God. I'm just bringing it today. I'm just bringing it. I am so caring this show. No, give me am so no answer of them doing this pausing it give me a cogent answer well it's just fucking ridiculous that we they want

okay great and in other news ralph lorna's decided to stop clubbing seals to make fur collars i mean big fucking deal it's ridiculous this was even ever even and by the way paused paused yeah this isn't this isn't what should be going on this shouldn't be they've decided to pause disseminating something that is clearly we know that it's bad for youth the government should be doing what it has done with every other substance or material yeah that has ended up being bad for young people. They either age-gate it or they regulate it. We age-gate alcohol and tobacco. We put NC-17 on porn, but yet we've decided to celebrate Instagram's putting a pause on Instagram kids. Well, good for fucking them. Regulators, get off your ass. Do something. I agree completely. I mean, it's amazing.

Of course, they said they're going to consult people, right? They're not calling us, are they? They're not going to call us. Yeah, I'm sure they're going to be very thoughtful about what we think. You know what? They should have us in there to yell at them. That would be very helpful. Yeah, that's what they need.

We wouldn't go, though. That's what they need. We wouldn't go, would we? No, we wouldn't go. That's what we need. Anyway, second thing. What do you think? I mean.

I think it's bullshit. They should never do it. They should drop the project. They should stop fucking with us and not do it. They have not shown the requisite responsibility to create a safe service for adults they shouldn't be doing for children. Thank you. You know, I mean, the entire public relations department and Nick Clegg of Facebook, they're the modern day Joe Camel. Ignore the cancer. It's fun. It's cute. It's just, well, no, no.

Just stay the fuck away from our children. This is tobacco. That's it. Get away from our kids. It's just- Get away from our kids. It gives you insight that they even contemplated this. Okay. Who thought, oh yeah, that's a good idea. Who thought that? If they were more responsible, I would be, okay, all right, I'll listen to you.

And I want you to make sure you're incredibly safe. Snapchat had said it. I'd be like, okay. But Snapchat's not saying it. The rest of them aren't saying it because they know the difficulties. Anyway, I think whatever. You don't get any claps from us, Facebook. The other thing is Pfizer's CEO says we should return to normal life within a year with the help of annual COVID booster shots.

Others do not agree. There's all sorts of approvals waiting, including for kids 5 to 12, which look like they're coming right away. So, what do you think about this? Well, there's been certain – I've had a really nice weekend here. I love Los Angeles. I grew up here. I went to UCLA to go around my own stomping grounds, which is amazing. I went to – did a hike in Runyon Canyon.

I just love Los Angeles. But the image that really struck me was I'm staying in the hotel next to the hotel we're having the conference. And I looked down and I saw this line. I'm like, what is it, a Supreme store or something? Yeah. It's 7.30 in the morning. And I realized they were I saw this line. I'm like, what is it, a Supreme store or something? At 7.30 in the morning. And I realized they were all in waiter's uniforms. And there must have been an hour-long wait for the entire staff at the Hilton. And they were in line.

And I figured out, oh, they're in line to get tested. You know why? Kara Swisher. Go ahead. And it's really funny. A kid I grew up with, this really nice kid that I bonded with named Brent Seals, has had a total scrappy entrepreneur, has a ticket selling company. And then he pinged me this morning and said, I'm doing the testing at Code. And I thought, God, that's an agile entrepreneur for you. Live events get canceled. Now he's in testing. Anyway, but the thing that just struck

me, Kara, there's just not getting around it. This is really sad. It's sad that we're still here. None of us expected to still be here. And what you have is a nation that is blessed with an unbelievable supply chain. We are very innovative. We're producing the best vaccines in the world. And then we, but we have the second most vaccine hesitancy in the world, just behind Russia.

And I keep hearing all these people when these conservatives get COVID, I'm like like and then you see people on twitter saying you know thoughts and prayers i'm like well trust me on this the prayers work much better when you're vaccinated yeah and we're doing it because we're testing for instant uh infectiousness and if you're infectious you can't come i mean you know who pushed me? Mark Benioff on this issue. Well, Mark started texting me. Yeah. I mean, he's very. So, we're doing masking, testing, and vaccination requirement.

And I know I'm going to get some pushback. Well, it's more than that. If you leave the property, when you come back, you've got to be tested again. I'm like, I'm stuck here. Yes, indeed. I'm going to be tested. You're stuck with me, Kara. We're together for the next two and a half days.

So, we're going to talk about that at Code with Andy Slavitt, from who worked for the White House, who we've talked to before, and also Nancy Messonnier. So we'll talk about that in a second. Lastly, China banned crypto. The market doesn't seem to care. What do you think about this? This is really interesting in that it's, quite frankly,

it's probably a proof point for the strength of cryptocurrencies. Yeah, they bounce back. Yeah, every time there's been a hit to crypto, it looks in retrospect as if it was a buying opportunity. The interesting thing here is that the beneficiaries are decentralized exchanges, DTX, Sushi, and Uniswap. And that is an exchange like Coinbase, for example, it's centralized and it's a platform and it can be tracked. And it's those platforms in China that are being shut down. But if you have a cold storage hardware wallet

and you go through Uniswap or a decentralized exchange, effectively you're off the grid. And those require smart contracts to execute the trade. So you're seeing Ethereum bounce back and you're seeing these decentralized exchanges not only bounce back, but reach new highs. They are. It's sort of playing into a little bit the narrative behind crypto and that this is the power of it. It's its decentralized nature that a government, a central bank can't, or unfortunately the IRS or the FBI can't track these flows. What they're trying to do, and I think there's, I mean, there's a lot at play here. And that is China's crackdown is really interesting.

Games, antitrust, monopoly power, data, teens, tutoring, and now they're going after crypto. And you look at all these things and you say it's really interesting with and now they're going after crypto. And you look at all these things and you say, it's really interesting the things they're going after. But they're also trying to play finance. They're trying to launch their own stable coin. And I think America should do that as well. I think America should do that as well. But I think it's fascinating.

What would you call it, the Eagle coin? The Eagle coin, I guess. Eagle coin, yeah, something, right? Yeah. So we're going to have Gary, speaking of regulating cryptocurrency, we've got SEC Chair Gary Gensler at Code this week. He is talking to him. And we will definitely ask about this. It's a big topic, but you're right.

It really, the bounce back, except in China, obviously, the crypto exchanges there are feeling hurt, is really interesting. It's going to be interesting. It's interesting to see how it plays out. I mean, I heard a very interesting viewpoint from someone and said that America's lax, or either call it poor regulation around entrepreneurship, or just terrible oversight, we've been overrun, depends how you want to frame it. But you might see a flow of human capital or innovation capital out of China into the US. But a lot of people say, no, China has decided not to subvert national interest, economic interest. So I just think it's the biggest story that's getting the least coverage. And that is what China has decided to do. People would say to me, well, Scott, you complain about

this shit all the time. What would you do if you had a magic wand? And quite frankly, that's what China is. China doesn't have a magic wand. It has an autocratic fist. And they've just said, we've done a lot of analysis. This is bad for kids. This is bad for income inequality. This is bad for economic instability. And they've come in with a hammer. Social unrest.

Yeah. They've got a bigger problem with that. But quite frankly, all of this kind of adds up to one thing, and that is crypto is bigger than China. And if China kicked out- Crypto is bigger than China. That's something to say. If China kicked out Apple or China kicked out Nike, you'd see a much more severe reaction in their stock than you've seen in Bitcoin and Ethereum. And this probably plays to Ethereum because of smart contracts. I find it really interesting. It's going to be... Anyways, but right now,

I would say all of this is a bit of a confirmation of the power of cryptocurrencies. And one thing Gensler said, he said that he compared all of these altcoins, or what I've referred to as shitcoins, as wildcat banking, when there were too many banks kind of starting their own currencies. And the question is, is that the right analogy or are all these coins just different stocks? Or trading cards. We decide that trading cards, baseball cards, have value. And is it really fair to call them wildcat banks?

So I think that interview tomorrow with Gary Gensler, it's going to be fascinating. Yeah, we'll ask him that. All right, so let's start with our first big story. I think it's our only big story today. We're recording this on the first day of Code. Let's go through the list of speakers and the things we're going to do. For those who don't know what Code is, it's my conference I've had first with Walt Mossberg. Now I do it by myself, and I have help with people like Scott Gowey and many others.

Thanks for that. Thanks for that. I could hear you say like, oh, maybe I shouldn't say it's mine with the dog on the phone. No, but it is. It is now. You're right. I'm just showing off. But the dog is going to do a lot. And by the way, the dog and I are going to have our own conference in Miami together. That's our conference. Little sunshine, little Latin, little sex feel. But let me just tell you, this is my house. Oh, you think? Like every cousin in the world is here. Like every Swisher in the world is here. No, no, no.

There's only my son and my brother. The Sultan of Wokistan has arrived. God. My mother, my son, and my brother are here. Everybody else stayed at home of my giant clan. Dr. Swish, Bane, and Lucky. Lucky's looking good. He is here.

I'm interested to see Lucky's fashion. Okay, good.ain, and Lucky. Lucky's looking good. He is here. I'm interested to see Lucky's fashion. Okay, good. I'm so glad. But let's not talk about my mother. Let's talk about the speakers. So first of all, you're talking to Sam Harris, and you're also giving a presentation. Why don't we talk about what you're doing first? First off, the thing I was just saying to the team, I'm intimidated. I used to punch these decks out like there was no one's business. And this is the first live presentation I think I've done in 18 months. And I don't want to disappoint you. So I've been spending a lot of time on it. And I think we have trouble processing everything that's happening. And I love Daniel Kahneman's theories around slow and fast thinking.

And when you're overwhelmed with information and you have to process it really fast, like you're a crisis, you go fight or flight, a friend or enemy. And I think we've taken a lot of concepts, whether it's crypto, whether it's online trading, whatever it might be. And I think we have a tendency to go very binary and say this is overhyped or underhyped. So my presentation is what things are underhyped and what things are overhyped. And I'm trying to figure, I'm going through everything from healthcare to crypto to different unicorns and trying to say, is this space travel? Is this underhyped or overhyped? So anyways, title of my presentation is Underhyped, Overhyped? Good. Okay. And Sam Harris, what are you going to see? Neuroscientist. Very interested in

psychedelics, correct? Yeah. I'm just an enormous fan of Sam. I think he's courageous and a very interesting thinker. And we're going to talk a little bit. He's really into this notion of flow and microdosing. And he's cataloged pretty meticulously his own experience with cyclosobin. How do you call it? Cyclosobin. Silosobin.

Silosobin. I don't know. I don't know. Mushrooms. Good time. And so we're going to talk a lot about that. So anyway, I'm a,

I'm a, he lives here, so it'll be nice to speak to him and explore that stuff. I'm fascinated by that stuff. Have you ever thought about doing one of these supervised, a lot of, all my, not all my friends, most of my friends have done some of these supervised trips where they have

like a massive dose of, I don't know if it's ketamine or MDMA. And then somebody asks them questions and they kind of unlock all the things in your life. And you kind of address things that you haven't addressed. And I'm not exaggerating. I think the majority of the people I've talked to have done it, have described it literally as a life-changing experience. Yeah, that's why we have a whole day of it at Code, just so people know we have a mind and body thing and one of the panels is all on psychedelics we're very interested uh in that as a business and as a sort of uh replacing problems with opiates and things like that ptsd and severe depression and yeah i'm a big believer in

suppressing things like i know i got some shit to deal with but I'd rather just keep it suppressed I think that's a one of my core competences is I just keep that shit buried no we're gonna no don't don't do that keep it buried

I'm very self-actualized don't need to deal with it I don't bury anything are you no I don't bury yeah no okay

although one time well I'd suggest you bury a little bit more I suggest no I'm not burying anything you pour a little bit more dirt on some of that stuff let's go through some of the speakers I'm resting burying anything. You pour a little bit more dirt on some of that stuff. Let's go through some of the speakers.

I'm resting my voice. I want your comments. This really is a fucking ad for code. Am I getting paid for this? No, you are. This is a fucking infomercial. I want to know what we should talk about. Stop it. I want questions.

I want questions. Questions for who? Mark Benioff. Well, I'm really interested. So, I think the thing I find fascinating about mark i mean okay mark is one of the wealthiest men in america and it's kind of redefined crm and sass he is the king of sass and so there's a lot of interesting questions around him going up against microsoft and productivity but i find the more interesting thing is is that mark benioff i don't think he'll

be remembered for crm or salesforce i think he'll be remembered for CRM or Salesforce. I think he'll be remembered for what I'll call breaking the code of the white guy. And that is these tech CEOs generally have a code where they don't go after each other. And he was the first one to say, you know what, Jack Dorsey, you should pay your taxes in San Francisco

and stop hiring lobbyists to not pay our fair share. And he's come out and said that Facebook are cigarettes. And he said it before. He said that to me, to Kara Swisher. Yep. And I would put a wrinkle in that. I think there's actually some very positive, when regulated, I think social media is and can be positive, but they spend all of their time in innovation covering up the negatives. I think it's not actually tobacco i think it's really more opioids than it is tobacco yeah there's some effective uses for it there's some effective uses for it opioids can be very helpful in certain supervised applications but anyway back to mark i think mark will go down as someone who

to Mark, I think Mark will go down as someone who, you know, you need in every, to make real change, a key component, a key actor in real change is what I call class traitors. And that's people, Teddy Roosevelt, Teddy Roosevelt turned on the people who elected him. He was elected by the big railroad companies and their money. And then he turned around and said, you're bad for America. I'm breaking your ass up. Thanks for putting me in the White money. And then he turned around and said, you're bad for America. I'm breaking your ass up. Thanks for putting me in the White House. And now I'm breaking you up. And Mark Benioff.

Excellent question. Mark Benioff is a class traitor. He's broken the code of the white guy. And I think that's what he's going to be remembered for. And I think he'll be remembered as a positive force in history around this shit. I like this question. All right, next one. Marguerite Vestager, speaking of regulating these people.

She's come all the way from Europe. Obviously, she is, I'm trying to pronounce her name correctly. I just didn't. Marguerite de Vestager. Vestager. Vestager. Anyway, what should I ask her? Well, I'm excited.

I think I told you once, I spotted her on an Amtrak train knitting, and I was staring at her. She's a knitter, I told you that. I was staring at her so much, I'm like, this woman's probably going to think I'm stalking her. So I went over and introduced myself, and I took a picture with her, and she couldn't have been more gracious. I just find her incredibly impressive. The question you need to ask her, though, is quite frankly, have the things they've done in Europe, have they worked? Because a lot of people would argue all they've done is cemented and actually played to big tech's favor, that it's the small and medium-sized media companies that have had to incur all the costs, and the bigger companies have actually extended their lead. So, you know, what has, has what Europe done, what they've done

in terms of regulation, has it worked or has there an element of it backfired? And then the next thing I would ask is, if America doesn't regulate these companies, what does she think they can do in Europe? What will happen? Does she ever see a European nation kicking one of these companies out? Because I would argue- Or arresting. Arresting. Well, my understanding is that there's certain executives at Facebook that are reticent to fly over UK airspace for fear their plane will be commandeered down and they'll be arrested.

But for refusing to testify or anyways. But I would, you know, has what, I like her, but has what she and Europe done, has it worked? I'm not sure it's worked, Kara. I'm not sure it hasn't made things worse. That's a good question. I'm totally using you as a, you know, like cramming for the exam, essentially. There you go.

Just so you know. Area manual. You're Paula Gabriel. I used to look at her test when I was in eighth grade. I used to look over and say, wait, what is that? I'm just going to ask a few more. Ari Emanuel. Oh, gosh.

Their company makes no sense as a public company. Their stock's off, and it should be. How is there any synergy there between professional bull riding and managing Brad Pitt? I don't understand WME as a public company. What is the story there? And what are they going to do as the proceeds for it? Do they think they're going to roll up? I mean, there's certain endemic things about the company itself. And then I would, you know, what is the changing role of talent management in streaming? I'd just be very curious. He's got, he's at the helm of the bobsled in terms of the changes here, and he sees the capital flows. I would want to understand from

him, I'm like, okay, winners and losers. What do you think happens to the cable bundle? Has the decline been overestimated? What do you think happens to live sports and live events? I mean, he really does see kind of the flows of what people are spending money on and where the talent is going. So I would go down two tracks. One, WME as a public company makes no sense to me. Tell me why it does. And then two, give us your winners and losers in the world of content and talent, because he really is at the forefront. And also, I would just be, I mean, if you have enough time, he's kind of famous for a management style that is very, what I'll call, and quite frankly, I think that management style is underrated. I think being honest and, I don't want to call, but I think there's a Hallmark Channel version of business and then there's what business is.

And I'd be curious if and how his management style has changed over the last decade. I think he's going to say something bad on stage. I think he can't help himself. We'll see. We're good. Isn't that what we want? Good. Yeah.

Oh, no, it's good. I always enjoy talking to him. A couple more. Ted Sarandos. He's the what we want? Good. Yeah. Oh, no, it's good. I always enjoy talking to him. A couple more. Ted Sarandos. He's the CEO and Chief Content Officer of Netflix. This is going to be a good one. Well, Netflix has stalled a bit. Its stock has lost its trajectory.

I mean, it's still an amazing performer over the last five or ten years, but I don't, you know, it's kind of, Disney Plus has come in. There's a massive capital coming into the place. Apple TV, I'd be curious. I mean, the problem, I'd say, who are your, who does he see as competitors? But he'll lie and say, oh, our competitors are everything and everyone. Yeah, time. I would want to know.

I don't, I think it's going to be difficult for them to extend. Do they believe it'll be difficult for them to continue to maintain their momentum without going vertical? Every company that's gone over a trillion dollars, which is what Netflix needs to do to attract investment capital, has one thing in common. They've gone vertical, whether it's Amazon going into fulfillment, whether it's Apple going into their own microchips in their own retail. Netflix, in my view, needs to go into the device business. Because at $17 billion in content, I guess it could go to $20 or $30 billion,

but it strikes me that they need, you know, do they have any plans? Like what vertical? Well, a device. It strikes me that one of these players, I mean, Apple is already starting to sweep the Emmys. And I think a lot of it, I'll be honest, like Ted Lasso, I think Ted Lasso is a cute show. If it wasn't owned by a monopoly that stuck it in front of my face because of unanswered monopoly power, I think it could have easily been forgotten. I think it could have easily gone abso-fucking-lutely nowhere. The Queen's Gambit could have been screened on Mars and we would have found it. That shit was genius. Ted Lasso is cute.

genius. Ted Lasso is cute. And he's now competing against a company that can put content in front of a billion people and get decent, cute content at the Emmys. I mean, he's now competing with folks that are vertical. I wonder if and how they plan to go vertical. But the problem is he's not going to say anything because he's a public company. Well, I hope so. We'll see. We'll see. All right, I have three more. Quick. Lisa Su, head of AMD. Obviously, they did that deal with China many years ago and some other things about making things. And now the company's roaring. At the same time, we have a chip problem across the world. Obviously, I have to talk to her about China.

Anything else? Well, the fastest means to grow your economy is through intellectual property theft. And the intellectual property theft of the next decade that could have a huge impact on the US and probably more of a strategic impact on Taiwan is China's in the midst of incredible IP theft around, what is it, DRAM? I think it's a real threat to our national security and probably to their company is that my feeling is basically China is in the midst of building up their own chip and microprocessor industry. And like, what can be, does she see it as a threat? And what can be done about it? I think this is really serious, that if China does what they did to apparel or to Siemens or to cell towers or to, you know, they basically just through,

or to Siemens or to cell towers or to, you know, they basically just through, what people don't realize is they think that our covert espionage efforts are about spies killing each other and stealing nuclear codes. No, they're not. It's much more boring. It's about stealing trade secrets from companies. That's where the majority of the espionage takes place. And China is better at it and more brazen. And I think it's a real problem when they start becoming, when they basically take tens or hundreds of billions of dollars in research and just steal it from the US and China and start producing their own microprocessors. I think it's a real threat to her firm.

Anyways, curious what you would say. And she won't say anything. Two more. Probably worried about being disappeared. Thanks for my, for the, for belief in my ability to elicit information. No, I believe, I believe you can ask great questions.

I just think, anyway, I'm sorry, go ahead. All right, Satya Nadella, head of Microsoft. Speaking of cybersecurity. How the fuck have they escaped any big tech scrutiny? They were the bad guy. They've gone from Darth Vader to Luke Skywalker. How have they pulled off the ultimate acrobatic move and become the bad guys to the good guys?

What is it about his leadership style and what they've done that's gone, that's given, no company, no company in history has done a better job of starching their hat white. And it's just amazing. Microsoft, most valuable company in the world for a while, now second most valuable, and nobody ever talks about them as a monopoly. Nobody ever talks about their externalities. They've done an amazing job at that. And I would ask them, it's arguably, everybody talks about IBM's renaissance, Apple's renaissance, Microsoft's renaissance. I mean, there's just no getting around it. I mean, they never did poorly, but for 10 years, the stock went flat. And then it's been an unbelievable performer.

I would love to know what are the two or three things. I mean, despite missing social, despite missing search, despite missing mobile, they continue to just perform. And I would love to just know, it's going to be tough for him to be very honest about his own company, but I'd have to kind of love to ask the same question in the same vein as Ari Emanuel. I would love to know. I think Sachin Adlla is a very deep,

smart, practical thinker. I'd love to know, Satya, what technologies are overhyped and underhyped in your view? And like, is it voice? Is it AI? Is it driverless technology? Like what is underhyped and overhyped in your view?

I'd love to get his take on stuff. Good ones. All right, last one. By the way, Scott and I are gonna do one. I'd love to get his take on stuff. Good ones. All right, last one. By the way, Scott and I are going to do one. I didn't know you were going to do this. I'm doing this literally. I know, that's what I want. This is all extemporaneous. I need help. I need help. Oh my God. By the way, Scott and I are going to do a mind and body panel with all kinds of psychedelics and body people. That's going to be fun on the third day but last but not least i did not know that quite frankly i did not know that but anyway i'm looking forward to it i'm looking forward to show up that means your co-host canceled and they've said okay bring in scott

no you were always in colos uh last but not least you keep asking me and going should stephanie rule do this instead of you no should stephanie rule do this instead of you? No. Should Stephanie Rule do this instead of you? Other than talent and being much hotter than me. She has nothing on me. She has nothing. All right. There's plenty of other speakers like Jason Kylar, Chris Krebs, all kinds of people coming. Casey Means.

We've got Nancy Messonnier. We've got all kinds of people coming. But last but not least, Elon Musk. Elon. Elon. Yeah. I mean, i would ask him a lot one cryptocurrency is so is so powerful and it you know it plays such a huge role and he plays such an outsized role now he's moving he's moving markets does he feel any additional responsibility to maybe have more impulse control around tweeting things when he can take markets up or down or does he just like well that's just who i am and that's

just part of it he said two or three years ago that there'd be a million autonomous teslas on the road within 12 months i haven't seen one is driver you know i would ask some hard questions and then but also i would also give him some softballs. Like what, what I forget what's called discovery for he totally like, I mean, he just showed up with a fucking elephant gun of space tourism, sending people around the earth three times versus this ridiculous, like send people up to the height of where a citation 10. And then what Virgin and Amazon did was literally, they brought a squirt gun to a gunfight. And he is killing it around, I think SpaceX is just performing like crazy.

And the other thing, and this is part of my presentation, you know what I think is really underhyped? You know what changes the world? It's not going to Mars, which isn't space exploration, it's space execution. You know who's going to change the world? It's with the Boring Company. And that is, there are are the richest people in the world

who've had the most impact have done one thing. They've all built time machines. Amazon Prime is a time machine. Netflix is a time machine. If your kids only watch Netflix, they save 11 days a year in commercials. Health care is going to build a time machine and give a woman who's managing her child's diabetes

eight of the 12 weeks back a year that she spends managing that kid's diabetes. If we can create from a 10 minute, from a 80 minute commute to a 10 minute commute, the most crowded corridors in the world, he's gonna give thousands of years back to humans. And not only that, if you start transporting, what we've learned through COVID

is the future is not about us getting around the world faster. It's about bringing the world to us faster. And if you build these tunnels, I think the really exciting thing about them is through, and it's boring, but the boring shit is what moves your older value. It's moving goods through so you can get your stuff in 10 minutes instead of 48 hours. I love when people make fun of him. The Boring Company is hugely underrated. I'd like to know more about it and what his vision is for it.

This was good. This is excellent. I like this. know more about it and what his vision is for it. This was good. This is excellent. I like this. We should do our own conference. Oh, we are. Yeah, we are. Except it's in Miami. If you think I'm fun and out of control here, oh my gosh.

Wait till we get to South Beach. We see a little salsa dog. We see a little El Perro. That's right. Oh no. That's right. All right, Scott. Let's right. Oh, no. That's right. All right, Scott. Let's go on a quick break.

When we come back, we're going to talk to a friend of Pivot, continuing this ad, Jim Bancroft of Vox Media. Who's Jim Bancroft? Who's Jim Bancroft? I don't know. Oh, wait, he's our boss. He's our boss. We don't care.

Yeah. Vox Creative. This is advertiser content from Zelle. When you picture an online scammer, what do you see? For the longest time, we have these images of somebody sitting crouched over their computer with a hoodie on, just kind of typing away in the middle of the night. And honestly, that's not what it is anymore. That's Ian Mitchell, a banker turned fraud fighter. These days, online scams look more like crime syndicates than individual con artists. And they're making bank. Last year, scammers made off with more than $10 billion. It's mind-blowing to see the kind of infrastructure

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do if you have text messages you don't recognize? What do you do if you start getting asked to send information that's more sensitive? Even my own father fell victim to a, thank goodness, a smaller dollar scam, but he fell victim. And we have these conversations all the time. So we are all at risk and we all need to work together to protect each other. Learn more about how to protect yourself at vox.com slash Zelle. And when using digital payment platforms, remember to only send money to people you know and trust. Support for this show comes from Constant Contact. You know what's not easy? Marketing. And when you're starting your small business, while you're so focused on the day-to-day, the personnel, and the finances,

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customer support. Ready, set, grow. Go to ConstantContact.ca and start your free trial today. Go to ConstantContact.ca for your free trial. ConstantContact.ca. and co-founder of Vox Media, and that makes him our boss, kinda. He joins us today to discuss the state of the industry as we head into code. Jim, welcome. Welcome. It's so good to be here. So good to be here. My first time on Stay Tuned with Preet, and I couldn't be more excited. Little CEO humor. You mean Prit? Prit Bharara? You mean the guy? guy you bring in prit you do a full spread in the wall street journal you bring in the dog and like i didn't meet you for a year you like threw your number seven person at me to go have coffee i'm not better though i'm not better hey when i i noticed that when you brought that awesome prof g podcast over the vox media podcast network all

of a sudden anderson cooper shows up. Was that happening before? Was that happening before, Big Dog? That's because we're very close. We're very close. All right, let's get to some stuff. Well, no, this is a legitimate question. So I would say the analogy here is you're Phil Jackson and Kara's Michael Jordan and I'm Scottie Pippen.

Aren't we really your boss? Your turn. You know what? Absolutely. I am here to serve. 100%. And who's Scottie P in all seriousness who's michael jordan well i mean cara's michael jordan and you're scotty pivot clearly and your name is scott so

that's appropriate but in all seriousness i am honored to be on the pivot podcast you guys are i am i am uh not only um you know involved as a colleague but i love the show so let's go let's do it. Okay. Enough of that shit. All right. My real question here. Okay. All right. Ask. So you're, we've been using this term, helm of the bobsled. So ad-supported media, and Vox still is technically ad-supported media, or a lot of it is. And that is, we got New York Magazine, we got podcasts, which seem to be one of the few ad-supported mediums that is actually growing. What is your observation around advertising? What mediums, I mean, is there really a future

in ad-supported media, even if it's digital, even if it's podcasts? What are you seeing out there? What are the trends? So, absolutely, there's a future in ad-supported media. I'll start off by saying the best media businesses are multi-revenue stream and Vox Media is multi-revenue stream. But since your question was about advertising, I want to talk to you about the subscription stuff that we do and the licensing stuff that we do. But we want an overview, Jim. We need an overview. Yeah. Well, as it relates to advertising, the advertising market is growing and digital is continuing to take share from the billions and billions that still haven't migrated from broadcast and cable and even print and other forms. And so digital is a growing pie.

I think the issue is that if you are subscale, it's harder to do it well. If you can't make the investment, and that's for a few reasons. Advertisers don't want to spread their money across a lot of smaller sites. It's in smaller properties. It's a patent for them. But also if you're subscale, you can't afford to invest in quality, whether that's quality ad products or quality measurements or whatever. So our strategy has been to carve out a big segment where we think we can win, which is IP or intellectual property driven, creatively driven, high quality advertising. And we've grown big because of that. And I think other people have other strategies, but it's working for us. We've seen great growth. The pandemic year for everyone was flat to down, but we've roared back. The other thing about advertising, quite honestly, is it's cyclical. As the economy has gotten better, more generally, advertising has rebounded, and we're certainly seeing that. All right, so you're not down on it.

It's not for everyone, but I'm not down on it for sure. But is this all headed to kind of a, it just logically you think, well, this is headed towards a Netflix model. Do you see in one year, three years or never, the pivot will be behind a wall or that all of the Vox podcasts will be behind a wall and we'll be charging five bucks a month because those revenues are valued at a multiple of revenues versus the business we're in, which is valued at a multiple of EBITDA. Will that happen? Will it take longer than we think?

It just seems if you look at scripted content and video, that's where it's headed. Why has that not happened with audio and podcasts yet? I think that, again, the best businesses have dual revenue streams or maybe even more than that. If you look at, you know, three us, remember the good old days of cable and Liberty Media and John Malone and all that stuff, subscription fees and advertising fees together. And that's where I think it's going.

And that's where I think podcasting is going too. So, you know, and I think it's an opportunity for the talent, you guys, for creators to benefit from both of those revenue streams. And what we're focused on is creating a quote-unquote platform where we could help creators by giving them promotion, monetization, infrastructure, all the things you need to be successful. And I think it's going to be a great business. We're obviously really long on podcasting. We have the Vox Media Podcast Network, and we're going to be a great business. We're obviously really long on podcasting. We have the Vox Media Podcast Network, and we're going to keep doing it.

All right, but he didn't answer his question. Is it moving over to subscription? There will be more subscription, but it's not going to pivot entirely to subscription. There will be advertising and subscription. And by the way, I take issue with the premise that logically everything is moving to a Netflix model. Like ad-supported podcasting is growing. It's profitable. There's a big long tail. And if you're not one of the more successful ones like any other industry, it kind of consolidates around the top, but it works. You know, it works for creators. It works for businesses.

So no, I don't think it's inevitably going to a Netflix model. I do think it's going to a dual revenue stream model. And we're excited to be part of that. I joked around about like stay tuned with Preet to start off. But, you know, Preet has upwards of Cafe Media, which is, you know, the company that we acquired that is led by Preet. They have tens of thousands of paying subscribers in addition to a big flagship model podcast

that is ad supported. He has tens of thousands paid subscribers? Tens of thousands paid subscribers. But pause there. What's the difference in content and podcasts that warns people or catalyzes people to pull out their credit card versus endure an ad from Athletic Greens or ZipRecruiter? More focused, more niche. I think even Netflix has its share of blockbusters, but Netflix, I think, is particularly strong because it appeals to hundreds or if not thousands of different particular interests.

And what, you can do the same thing in podcasts. I think the large, broader ones are going to be ad supported. And then the more micro targeted ones lend themselves to subscription. That have a fan base. That's right. Right. That have more of a fan. One of the things that I think a lot of people are thinking about is the impact of a pandemic on your business. I'd love to sort of, you know, running a business, obviously there's the remote work part, the creation part. But in general, what has been the impact and how do you feel now, even though we're not quite out of it?

We had to do a lot of stuff at Code around COVID, obviously. We canceled last year. That's one part of your business. You have remote issues. Talk a little bit about managing in a pandemic. Well, yeah, I'm glad you brought it up, Cara. And it's, you know, we're definitely, you know, it rages on in Delta variant, and we are taking it incredibly seriously here at Code. We're taking it incredibly seriously at Vox Media in terms of office. And, you know, there's a lot of decisions to be made. And I guess, you know, aside from things that people have already talked about, like, you know, making sure that everyone is safe is paramount. And we take, you know, we're focused primarily on that. But the interesting thing is different people in our employee base. And we now employ, I know about 1300 plus full-time people, people have different

needs, people have different opinions on things. And we are working hard to listen, but also make some decisions so that we can move forward. You know, they expect us to lead. And we're trying really hard to gather as much information so that we can do that. So, you know, for us, that means we're in a position where we can provide our employees with flexibility at this stage. Do you think everyone has to do that? Is that what every employer is going to come to the office. I recognize there's value in that. And I've heard a lot of the discussions on Pivot and elsewhere about, and I agree that there is value in that, particularly for creativity, for innovation, getting human connectivity in person is important. Having said that, that's not every day. And that's not every person. It doesn't have to be a one-size-fits-all

model. And I think what we're going to have to work our way through collectively is understanding a finer cut at this. It's not as simple as everyone's back in the office because I say so, but it's also not as easy as do whatever you want. I think we're going to have to, you know, figure out the in-betweens there and different companies have different needs and, uh, it is going to help us get through this. Um, but, but, you know, it's, it's gonna vary from company to company and employee-based to employee-based and individual to individual. So you both develop organically and acquire podcasts. And there are, I think something like now 1ically and acquire podcasts. And there are, I think, something like now 1.2 million podcasts.

And I would venture that 1,000 generously, it's probably 100 of those, or 0.01%, are self-sustaining economically, if you really did the hard economics on them. an algorithm or what are the what's the criteria filter that you look at and say we need three or three or four of these boxes to be checked for what will ultimately be a successful podcast what makes a successful podcast when you look at something you know you're right it's a hits driven business it's not dissimilar from so many other creative endeavors for better or worse. If you look at the top songs on Spotify or if you look at the top shows on Netflix, it's definitely that kind of thing. And, you know, to answer your question, though, it's a hard thing to answer because if we had that specific formula, we would be, you know, everyone would be doing it. We'd be doing it all day long. So like other creative endeavors, there has to be spark, but generally speaking it's around relevance. It's around rapport. There are different types of podcasts that your audience and, you know,

their interview shows or talk shows that are scripted. So, you know, the format is less important. It's more about the relevance. And it's been said before, it's such an intimate medium. The other thing about it is that podcasting on, say, a website or even a TV show requires an investment of time. And so it's harder for new podcasts to break in is one thing I've found. We find our favorites. I have my favorites like Pivot, but we don't, you know, they take an investment. And even if I go from 1x to 1.5x, it's still going to take me, you know, half an hour to listen to a podcast. And there are only so many you can fit in.

And so I think, you know, the good ones have to keep innovating and staying good. And then the new ones, I think it's going to be an increasingly higher bar to break in and grow an audience. One more question. So you manage, you said 1300 people, and we have a really young, what I call information age workforce. When you observe people, are there certain characteristics that you observe and you think that person is going to do really well? Like what advice can you give to young people in terms of the things, the qualities, the competencies they should double down on? Because you think that's what is kind of the elements that seem to succeed in a company like ours? Great, great question. You know,

the workforce has changed so much since I entered it. I, You know, I, and in a lot of positive ways, you know, I had to endure unpaid internships that, that allowed, you know, a lot of people have privilege to excel when, you know, and things like that. So the workplace is changing in a positive way. I tell people sometimes if a friend asks for a internship for their child, I tell them like about the hardest way for your child to get an internship is going through me because like, you know, we're going to go through a rigorous process to get people in the door. But so I think things have improved a lot. But to answer your question about what it takes to be successful, that probably hasn't changed a lot.

And, and what I like to tell people is think like your boss thinks and, and what problems are they trying to solve? Uh, and what, you know, I'm the CEO of this company. Like, let's think about the problems that I have to solve. And in addition to being very good at the- Sorry, go ahead. In addition to- I don't think like- I'm sorry, go ahead.

Think about anybody. In addition to being as masterful as possible at the thing that you were hired to do, whether it's be a producer for a podcast or be a copy editor or be a salesperson or an IT professional, whatever it is, you have to master that. But then also think about the bigger problems that are trying to be solved and, and, and collaborate the, you know, to get there. That's,

that's one thing I'd say. Yeah. That was a nice way of saying, how do you deal with all the millennials, which is Scott's persistent question usually. So the last question I have, cause we got got to get going, because I've got to get ready. My hair did for code to make you some dough. Sorry, go ahead. I'm so excited for code.

There, I said it. All right. Okay, there. Okay, SPAC. We would like some money. So, you've seen media companies attempt to go public via SPAC with mixed success. What is your next move, Jim? Jim, I just want to say this is really important because Professor G is sort of interesting.

But if I get tens of millions from the SPAC, I'm fucking fascinating. Make me fascinating, Jim Bancroft. How do we get there? If we get there, can I come on the boat? Yeah, 100%. Yes, he already has a boat. That's not true. I don't know the boat.

I got seasick. Anyways, I'm sorry. All right, whatever. Yeah, so we've worked really hard at Vox Media to put ourselves in a position where we can determine our own fate. our own fate. I think there have been a lot of companies that have, as there always have been, that have resorted to different kinds of financing to kind of get while the getting is good. And sometimes that, and you can say the same thing about SPACs that you could say about an overheated venture market or anything else. But we're going to do what creates and realizes the most value and the most potential to grow the kind of company that we want to grow. Of course, we're going to treat our shareholders well, but we're going to treat our other stakeholders, employees, advertisers, partners, etc. well in that process.

And we're going to use financing as a means to do that. And so if the SPAC market is the right way to do that, we'll look at the SPAC market. Right now, no. You should be a public market CEO because you just said nothing. I know. You just absolutely said nothing. He said nothing. I was just thinking that.

I'll give you some more tea on this. I think there are a lot of companies that are using SPACs because they have to. Because they have to do an acquisition or because they have to, because they have to do an acquisition or because they have to like get out somehow. Like we're not, we're not one of those companies. Like the bloom is off the SPAC rose. And so like, you know, do we, do we find value in, in the right kind of liquidity? Yes. Do we find value in the right kind of currency so that we can continue to pursue more and more ambitious acquisitions in addition to the organic growth? Yes. Like we will be doing those things. And, you know, if if an standard IPO gets us there, great.

If a SPAC gets us there, great. If some other form of financing gets us there, great. But we're not in a position, you know, we're a profitable company like we don't we don't have to like we'll speak on that speak on that so we'll be we'll be opportunistic in terms of capital uh year on year revenue growth 2020 2021 we're not disclosing that we're a private company but up into the right and you know meaning meaning 20 40 meaningfully up meaning and we're profitable ebitdaDA margins, good, same, better, worse, same, better than media companies? They're strong and they're growing. And they're growing while we are still importantly investing in our business, investing in our people, and investing in the technology that enables us to be more efficient. Where does most of our growth come from, organic or acquisitions?

Most of our growth comes from organic. But when we look to do acquisitions, we look to not only acquire new properties, but also new capabilities that will help us grow. Our biggest one to date was New York Media. That was a home run. New York Mag, Vulture, Intelligencer, Strategist, et cetera, is just a home run in terms of more weight in the advertising market, but also a new subscription revenue stream with New York Mag Digital, an e-commerce powerhouse with the Strategist.

So we're going to continue to look for opportunities that not only grow us in both, but grow us in quality. So in other words, we got to get going because I really do have to get to the stage. I got to get to the stage. So you're buying answers. We'll smell you. Shut up.

Elon is waiting for me. All right, you two are going to kill it. I can't wait to be there. Listen, you need to make a prediction. It can't be code. It'll be great. All right. Well, an obvious one is consolidation is going to accelerate.

We're going to be an acquirer. We're not the only ones. So look for that to happen. I'd say another thing, though, and this will go contrary to Scott's Netflix is inevitable thing is I think the rise of advertising supported VOD, AVOD as it's called, you know, right now YouTube kind of dominates that market, but YouTube is not a substitute for say linear cable. American households are not going to be able to buy five different subscription things, you know, and they're going to turn to services like Roku, like Pluto, Amazon, you know, and I think that's going to be a viable market. I think you'll,

you know, the peacock strategy with the like the paid options make sense. Well, you know, I think peacock could be one, you know, Roku could be one there, you know, we're going to see how it, how it shakes out, but you know, the ad supported, you know, it's a big country and not, you know, as I said before, not everyone has the income to buy, to kind of rebundle things on their own. So. All right. All right. Perfect. All right. This is great. Your hair is on point. I think he's one of the more handsome media executives.

Oh, thank you for saying that, Scott. Yeah, he is a handsome executive. You know what the thing is, Jim? My only doubt that you're going to get us to the promised land is you're just too fucking nice. You know, fuck off. And have a great- There we go. You're learning.

Let's end on that. Let's end on that. All right. Thank you, Jim. Maybe I will get rich. All right. One more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails. Support for this podcast comes from Anthropic. You already know

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So now, it's easier than ever to be a marketer. Get started at HubSpot.com slash marketers. Okay, wins and fails. Scott, I'm just going to have you do them because my voice needs resting. So I don't want to pollute my win with a fail. My win is Angela Merkel stepping down after 16 years. I think that, unfortunately, I hope she doesn't mark the end. I hope she just marks the pause in what is an unhealthy – well, I think there's been an unhealthy transition in our leaders from character to charisma,

where we've gone after sort of these charismatic, loud, you know, in a digital world of Twitter, it's more about how loud and persistent you are versus the veracity or the character of your comments. And I think Angela Merkel reeks of character. And if you look at Germany through the last 16 years, I mean, America has been a bit of a shit show. Asia has been an emergent China. If Europe had been an aggressive shit show with Nash, I mean, there are components of

Europe that have been a problem. But the engine of Europe, we talk about the United Kingdom because inherently we just want white people to talk about white people who speak English is thinking they'd set the tone. Germany is the engine of Europe. And it's been a stable, you know, it's been a remarkably consistent grower of its middle class. It's been a liberal society that's managed to grow its economy. I love the fact that she is not an ideologue, that she has, she herself is quite conservative, but she didn't get in the

way of gay marriage. She understood that she wanted to go where Germany wanted to go. The majority of people who are not, who have immigrant parents has exploded there, which I think is a good thing. I think she represents a real steady hand, a real ballast for Europe over the last 16 years. I think she's, and not only that, she started, she started, I like the fact, you know what she did? She got a PhD in quantum chemistry.

And she represents this terrible word that I don't think is terrible. She represents intellectualism. She represents being smart. Okay, but just, I mean, I think she definitely led, as someone said on Twitter, the 16-year tenure was an example of steel with grace, I would agree. That said, the center-left Social Democrats won the biggest share, and her outgoing center-right union bloc was very close, but Social Democrats are now in charge. And a seat held by Merkel since 1990 was run by a candidate in the other party.

She was born in 1993. So I think it's very healthy, but change is afoot in Germany for sure. Yeah, but just my win. A quantum chemist has been the most stable hand of 16 years in the last century, and I think she's led a remarkably honorable life. She could have left after eight years and gone on boards or gone to work for a private equity firm. Agreed.

But her heart is with Germany. Let's give it up for Angela Merkel. Chancellor Merkel. Angela. We love her. That's my win. All right, I agree with you. Good one.

Okay, no fails. I'm not going to have any wins. The win is I agree with you. Good one. Okay, no fails. I'm not going to have any wins. The win is going to be you on stage with me at Cove. Go, go. That's what it's going to be. I'm being nice. That's right. I'm bringing it.

Thank you for answering my questions. I'm nervous. Don't be nervous about the speakers. It's really helpful to me. That was my win is getting good questions out of you. Well, thanks a lot. Anyway, we're going to take listener questions on Friday's show as usual. Record yours at nymag.com slash pivot.

Okay, that's the show. We'll be back on Friday to take apart what we are going to make in the next few days. We're making content, especially Scott Galloway and many others who are going to be on stage. So we're going to have a lot to talk about. Scott, read us out. Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Evan Engel, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Indertot engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows, my man, coming to me with LA next to me, tall and handsome, giving me some street cred when I go running on San Vicente later. Make sure you're subscribed to the show on Apple Podcasts,

or if you're an Android user, check us out on Spotify or, frankly, wherever you listen to podcasts. If you like the show, please recommend it to a friend. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. I love L.A. I'm staying at the Waldorf Astoria. This morning I met two actors, and I asked them for more coffee. I asked them for more coffee. Let's get on it.

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Can we figure this out? Hey, y'all. I'm John Blenhill, and I'm hosting a new podcast at Vox called Explain It To Me. Here's how it works. You call our hotline with questions you can't quite answer on your own. We'll investigate and call you back to tell you what we found.

We'll bring you the answers you need every Wednesday starting September 18th. So follow Explain It To Me, presented by Klaviyo.