Pivot - Covid vaccine in the US, Roblox IPO delay, and friend of Pivot Stephanie Ruhle

Episode Date: December 15, 2020

Kara and Scott talk about the covid-19 vaccine being distributed in the United States and the apps that will trace who has gotten the vaccine. They also discuss Roblox delaying its IPO until 2021 after Airbnb and Doordash's blockbuster market debuts. Then MSNBC Anchor Stephanie Ruhle joins to talk about her own experience with the coronavirus and how she thinks the US will or will not change once we have the vaccine. Kara thinks that a Wall Street Journal op-ed about First Lady-elect Dr. Jill Biden was a fail. Send us your Listener Mail questions through our site, nymag.com/pivot and use Yappa to leave a video or audio message. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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tells you which leads are worth knowing, and makes writing blogs, creating videos, and posting on social a breeze. So now, it's easier than ever to be a marketer. Get started at HubSpot.com slash marketers. Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher. And I'm Scott Galloway.

Well, hello. It's Elector Day. It's Elector Day across the United States. The Electoral College is convening to cast votes for Joe Biden, who will win. And the Trump people still think they're going to win, which is interesting. Stephen Miller said there's going to be an alternate slate of electors. What alternate universe is that in? No.

It's probably his friends, the friends he has, of which count zero. So that's happening, which is great, which hopefully we're getting closer and closer to not having problems here. But it's going to go down to the wires. Trump has said he's not going to stop. But I think we need to start ignoring him absolutely and completely. So I'm going to move on. For Russian hackers, actually, they're complaining about a fraudulent and hacked election.

Russian hackers are actually believed to have hacked into small systems, email systems, at the Department of Treasury and Commerce over the course of months undetected. It's possible other departments as well as private companies have been hacked as well. So this is the actual rigging and hacking going on by the Russians, which was disclosed this weekend. At the same time, Google went down for a short time last night. So a lot going on. What do you make of this? Well, if you think about at the end of the day, the president or our elected officials are managers and all managers are supposed to do is allocate capital to a greater return than capital that's allocated by competitive managers or managers of competitive organizations. And so if you think about the leadership in other

organizations and where they're allocating capital relative to where we're allocating capital, I think Russia is outplaying us in that Russia has figured out that, okay, you have the U.S. that spends more on their military, conventional military, aircraft carriers, planes, tanks, than the next 10 nations combined. We just can't compete. And we would like them to compete with us. We would like them to build aircraft carriers, but they've decided that's a bad waste of money. So they're over-investing in cyber warfare. And we, I mean, if you really think about our capital allocation, we spent $700 billion on the military, somewhere between $6 and $12 billion on the CDC. And I don't know what we spend on cybersecurity, but I would imagine that relative to the threat,

our management isn't allocating capital as efficiently as Russia. Because if Russia can weaponize Facebook and at a minimum decrease the sanctity of our elections, if they can tap into federal agencies and create a level of security and create a level, it makes us look bad. It just makes our brand look kind of weak. It does. It's just, they're not doing their job. They're not, you're absolutely right. They're managers who are not doing their jobs and instead are putting up fake, you know, focused on, one, focus not on COVID, focus two, not on Russian, the actual threats to our democracy is things like this. And it's really, I mean, the ease of the, especially now that we're so dependent on these technologies, it's really amazing how badly this administration has managed.

Well, not only that, though, but there's an algebra of deterrence. And unfortunately, it's gotten to the point where I don't think there's a huge, this is like an invasion. This is an assault on the homeland. And I think the Biden administration needs to be very thoughtful and coordinate with the Secretary of Defense and our allies. Yeah, we've got to come down hard. Well, they're doing it. We've got to do more than that. We've got to find a city, a satellite city or something in Russia or something of strategic interest. And we need to shut it off like a fucking light switch.

We do. And say, look, if you're going to continue to do this, we're going to start hitting back. Well, they know. We're better at this than you are. They know Trump isn't going to do anything. Well, that's my point. There's no algebra deterrence here. There's no fear of reprisal.

I like that. All right. Speaking of algebra, it's not really algebraic. I like that. All right. Speaking of algebra, it's not really algebraic. Disney's Invest Your Day presentation late last week showed the company moving even further into streaming. They quietly, while Jason Kyler is taking all the arrows.

I listened to your interview with Jason. Yeah. That guy's good. He is good, but he's still, they're coming at him, all the Hollywood people. Well, first off, he's a total politician. He's totally full of shit. He outright lied twice. Oh, movie theaters are great. We still, I still love going to movies. Yeah, he just put tall politician. He's totally full of shit. He outright lied twice. Oh, movie theaters are great.

I still love going to movies. Yeah, he just put a fucking stake through their heart. And then like HBO Max? No, we're actually doing quite well. HBO Max has been a fucking disaster. Yeah, I'm not going to give him the blame. He's very good. He should run for Senate. That guy is very smooth.

Disney, meanwhile, is doing a lot of the same stuff, but quietly in a relationship-y way. The shares have doubled since March. How is their contract strategy different from what Jason is doing? I think Jason's doing their work for them, the Spade work for them. Oh, gosh. I mean, this is so gangster. If you think about all strategy comes down to one question.

Oh, really? What can we do that is really hard? What can we do that is so hard? What can we do that is so hard, everyone else has a tough time doing it? And here's the thing, with a $20 billion original content budget, it's very hard to do a better job of original content. And I would bet the next quote-unquote

Queen's Gambit original stories that have never been told before will likely come from Netflix or maybe even HBO Max. But what can Disney do? Disney can say, you know, we spent $100 billion buying these franchises called Pixar, called Lucasfilm, called Marvel. And what are we going to do? We're going to spin up six series. What can Netflix not do even if they spend $50 billion in original content, they can't have this amazing miniseries on a young Lando Calrissian. They can't start, oh gosh, it's such an amazing character introduced

that Rosario Dawson is going to play. They can't have, they're spinning up, they're going to spin up literally every other week, a new franchise adjunct from- Mandalorian. From Raiders, Star Wars, Avengers. You'll be very happy, Jason, which they have a lot of IP. One of the things he talked about a lot was the amount of IP they had. Dragons. Everything.

Everything Game of Thrones. They have a lot more than that. They've got a ton of. Prince of Dorne. They've got a lot. Prince of Dorne. Baddest bisexual in the world. Granted, I don't know a ton of bisexuals, but he sets the bar.

He probably does. He sets the bar. Actually, you're right. I probably do. I probably do. But here's the world. Granted, I don't know a ton of bisexuals, but he sets the bar. He probably does. He sets the bar. Actually, you're right. I probably do. Probably do. But here's the deal. He definitely, I mean, he was talking about using

like a lot of their assets and the fact that they hadn't been used. And so I think you're going to see a lot of that. The question is whether he's pissed off. I think those Hollywood people

will go wherever the money is, honestly. Their righteousness. That's my favorite. I talked to Ben Smith about it. He was like right in the middle. I was like, they didn't call them. Too bad.

They bought the stuff. They can do whatever they want. I'm sorry. Newsflash. This just in. Christopher Nolan and the head of CAA, who make $30 to $50 million a year off the existing film industrial complex, think change is a bad idea.

Shocker. Shocker. And you know what? All these guys will absolutely go with the next dollar. It's the notion that somehow. I was like, I wasn't called. It's like, so what? Like, who cares?

Like, years ago, let me tell you, years ago, when AOL bought Time Warner and Ted Turner got all his knickers in a knot later, first he said it was the best thing since sex, and then he said he didn't like it. I recall, I think it was Barry Diller. He's like, you sold your house. They can do whatever the fuck they want to it. They can put a shitty patio on it.

They can tear it down. They can, you shouldn't have sold. If you were so mad, don't sell your house. And to me, they sold it. There's more nuance here because they have backend deals largely dependent upon gross. They're going to have to pull out their checkbooks There's more nuance here because they have back-end deals largely dependent upon gross They're going to have to pull out their checkbooks and say, okay, you weren't expecting this

is a different model. They'll be settled by lawyers. Yep. But it's literally like JCPenney saying, Amazon is a terrible shopping experience. It's just, okay, really? All right. True, but. All right.

We're going to get on. We are with Jason Tyler. By the way, you realize we're effectively dictating Disney's strategy at this point. Who six months ago said Disney needed to go full Rundle? Who said this six months ago? You did, Scott. That's right. Thank you.

Okay, Scott, big stories. The COVID-19 vaccine is officially being distributed in the United States. We're going to talk about this with Stephanie Rule later because she just had COVID. The first person to receive the vaccine in the U.S. was an ICU nurse in New York. I love that. I thought that was lovely. I like this whole, the public having it. I really think it's great.

Across the country, 145 sites were set to receive the vaccine on Monday, 425 on Tuesday, and 66 on Wednesday. Meanwhile, major airlines, including United and JetBlue, are introducing an app called CommonPass that will verify passengers' COVID status. They should have done this a long time ago. The app will then issue confirmation codes enabling passengers to board certain international flights. It's just the start of a push for digital COVID

credentials as people start receiving the vaccine. What do you think of the United States distribution plan? It's getting criticized, largely because we didn't order enough. And who could step in and streamline it? How is it going to—it's going to be months and months. And meanwhile, Bill Gates is saying it's going to be until 2020, mid-2022, before anything's normal. Others say much earlier. What is your feelings? There's so many things to unpack here. First and foremost, this is really, really exciting and wonderful in terms of the, what makes us human in terms of cooperation and having a disproportionate, a brain so large we have to be expelled from our mother early. You know, this is our superpower as a species and vaccines represent our superpower. And so it's very exciting. It's also, there's some very scary things here.

What's going to happen under the auspices of vaccine? A lot of people are going to loosen their behavior. We're going to see record death. They have to loosen their behavior. We're going to see record death during the vaccine as it's distributed. We're going to see a lot of selfish behavior, specifically people deciding to wait because they have these fucked up, non-scientific, non-data-driven fears around this vaccine, which is just total nonsense. And we need to dispel people of the notions or we need to outline what are the real risks here. And it's something similar to not being eaten by a shark or struck by lightning, but being struck by lightning while you're being eaten by a shark. I'm really fearful that if the distribution doesn't go as expeditiously as it should, that we are going to have record deaths under the

auspices of the cold comfort of a vaccine. I actually believe, I disagree with Bill Gates, I actually think we're going to be able to get it if you want it sooner than you think for bad reasons. I think a lot of people are going to decide to hold back for six or 12 months, which is the wrong decision. So this credential validation, it's interesting, vaccine validation. What do you think? You're a privacy person. I am mixed, as you might imagine, but I do think you do get validated for a lot of other things. You know, when I vaccinate my kids, you need to turn it in before you go to school,

before they go to school, all kinds of vaccines, and I'm okay with that. I don't mind if it's done privately, validation of the places that you could spread COVID. Yes, I'm kind of for that. I'm kind of like that. I'm kind of like, yeah, because it's done in other places all the time. Like, you know, herpes or if you have a communicable disease, that's communicated. I think this is a public health issue, and I think it's quite different. If it can be done in a private way, shared it with the right people, sure, sure. We need a passport and your identity to travel abroad.

If you live in Texas, the Republican governor made it law that people have, youth have HPV vaccines to go to certain public schools all over America. Shit to go to certain countries you need vaccines. Of course, at MIT, if you're a student, you have to be tested every week or you can't get into the university buildings. Yeah, yeah. This is absolutely.

This is public health. And also, by the way, a lot of the stories of people going to Europe, they get totally tested and they get totally checked and everything else. And here, you can wander around and do whatever you want and cough on people. So, I think we're just doing a disservice to our economy by behaving like this. And it just continues. This weekend, we had all the Proud Boys here in D.C. coughing on everybody and beating people up, which is just, oh, God, the worst people on the planet, I think.

No, they're not the worst, but they're among the worst. And so I think that people still will have this disdain. They're going to be proud all the way to their graves is what they're going to be, proud in their whatever. I don't even know what to call it. But I do think people should be. If you were a company, you know, people cannot come into the office unless they've been vaccinated or had proof of antibodies. I just think it's just safe. It's just public safety. In terms of distribution, you and I talked about this. I just think it's just safe. It's just public safety.

In terms of distribution, you and I talked about this. I don't understand. I think Jeff Bezos and Doug McMillan and UPS and FedEx, I think all five of them should get together with Joe Biden and say, our firms, our workforce are at your disposal. And not to have a fake. Remember that fake press conference? Doug McMillan was at that Trump press conference where he was coughing on everybody, the same one,

where nobody was wearing masks, which was just the worst measures of all time. So I do think, you're right, hopefully they have a plan. I think the people involved with Biden have done this before, so perhaps they will. And Fauci's now doing a little victory dance everywhere because he's riding with Biden and now is not in fear of being fired, obviously.

So I think it'll be interesting to see how you don't want them to overreach at the same time, given all the sensitivities now. But I do think a really firm hand throughout this vaccination problem is critical. It's critical. All right, Scott, let's go to a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk Roblox delaying its IPO and friend of Pivot, Stephanie Ruhle, on her experience with COVID-19 and the economy. Fox Creative. This is advertiser content from Zelle. When you picture an online scammer, what do you see?

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and makes writing blogs, creating videos, and posting on social a breeze. So now, it's easier than ever to be a marketer. Get started at HubSpot.com slash marketers. Scott, we're back. Roblox, the popular video gaming company, is delaying its IPO until 2021 after last week's market burst with Airbnb and DoorDash's IPOs. The company's co-founder and chief executive, David Bazucki, announced the decision saying that waiting provided, quote, an opportunity to improve our specific process for employees, shareholders, and future investors, both big and small. Roblox has exploded in popularity since the beginning of the pandemic, especially among

children. It averaged 31.1 million daily active users in the first nine months of 2020, up 82% from a year earlier. So is this a good move for the company? So simply put, mind blown. I mean, when was the last time you heard of an IPO pulling because the market was too strong? Yeah. IPOs get pulled because they're worried they're not going to get enough money.

This is a company, and this is, first off, Roblox, of all the IPOs I was excited about. Yeah, you weren't. Of all the IPOs, I would have thought would have gone not only crazy on day one, but actually sustained a one-year gain. Because let's be honest, rich white people have figured out a way to capture all the gains, right? When Google went public, it went public at like a $2 or $3 billion market cap.

So that run-up, if it was going, if Google was around now, the private investors, the institutional investors would wait. Companies used to take three years, successful companies go public. Now they take seven. So such are the institutional people can capture more of the upside. So what you have is, I mean, income inequality gone crazy. But if there was one stock I thought was undervalued, even going into this crazy environment, it was Roblox. Some stats on Roblox.

The number of people, daily active users, as a percentage of their total monthly active users has gone from 18% to 24%. They pay a third of their revenues out to creators. No one creator has more than, I think, 10%. They have over 50% of kids under the age of 16 have been on Roblox in the last 30 days. I think Roblox is arguably the most. So explain the delay. Why? Because this is only going to be a $3 billion. So if you look at Airbnb, it was $30 billion raising $3 billion. And everyone's like, oh, they left so much money on the table. Yeah, okay. But they only took 10% of their float out,

meaning that the additional dilution they took was about 5%. In other words, they didn't float the entire $30 billion valuation of the company. They floated $3 billion of it. So the fact that the stock doubled, everyone cries, well, they left a ton of money on the table. Yeah, okay, they did. That's true. But at the same time, they got this huge branding event, huge momentum, real excitement. It was on the front page. So, these things are now becoming

sort of branding events. Now, if a stock doubles, first off, the number of stocks that doubled in 2000 from their IPO in 2019 was like two, and it averages one to three a year. This year, there's been 11 already. So, we've never seen an IPO market like this. So, you do leave some money on the table. Now, when you talk about Roblox, which is going out at a valuation of around $3 billion and raising $300 or $400 million, they were literally setting up a scenario. This thing could have popped 300 or 400 percent on the first trade. This is a juggernaut. This is arguably the most influential company for people in this age of 16. And here's the thing.

This is why it's different than Facebook, which is arguably the most influential company. It in this age of 16. And here's the thing. This is why it's different than Facebook, which is arguably the most influential company. It's not a menace. They are spending a ton of time on safety. They are giving parents a certain level of confidence that, okay, you're not going to radicalize my young boy or you're not going to create teen depression among my young girl. They are reviewing tens of millions of pieces of content. I went through their S1. They mentioned the word safety 16 times. They talk about parental.

I mean, they are, and not only that, they talk, I mean, this company is just so fucking gangster. 79% of their full-time staff are engineers. They're more of a tech company than Google. They're more of a tech company than Splunk or Palantir. I mean, this is a true tech company. And they've said, all right, let's try and share the wealth with our content creators, and let's try and create a safe platform such that we pretend we actually have kids or that we give a good goddamn about other people's kids. The revenues, the market is- You like yourself from Robux.

Oh my God. All right. Well, so waiting- Well, you know what else? Just one more thing. Yes, go ahead. One more thing. The market was missing.

They were saying, oh, it lost a bunch of money. People prepay for Robux. So it's negative work in capital. The free cash flow on this thing is gangster. So if there was ever an IPO I wanted in on, it was this thing. And these guys said- And this is a good move. This is a good move.

Well, they basically pulled back and said, maybe it's not $3 billion. Maybe it's $10 billion. Right. Right? So, let's just wait. But this just shows how the narrative has totally taken control of the numbers. We've never seen an IPO market like this. Yeah. So, are you worried? Am I worried about what?

The IPO market with Airbnb and DoorDash. Oh, there are canaries everywhere. The problem is trying to time the market. The problem is the economists basically perfectly depicted the meltdown of the dot bomb. The problem is they called it in 1997 and the market went up another 60%. It's your greed glands versus your fear, right? The fear of missing out. How would you play it?

Give me one quick tip. Oh, if you can get into any of these, I would try and get into them, but I would also diversify like crazy and hedge stuff. I just think, you know, and it obviously depends when you get in, but let's be honest, there's just no getting around it. This is another point in the line

that is income inequality because more and more of the gains are being captured by people whose money is managed by Goldman, institutional investors, the VCs. And by the time the retail investor gets access, Airbnb is already worth more than the next five hospitality companies combined.

Yeah, I had a friend who's like, I got in at 160. I was like, oh. Yeah, careful. I didn't know what to say. I said, I don't know. I don't do stocks, so I don't know. It's a very worrisome time.

Agreed. Okay, let's move on to our favorite friend of Pivot. Stephanie Rule, who is always, she's more than a friend of Pivot. She's a friend of mine, too, and of Scott's. Anyway, Stephanie, let's talk about, you know, she's obviously an MSNBC anchor and NBC senior business correspondent, but she also is a survivor of COVID. What do you want to call yourself? What is the... Somebody recovering from COVID, I would say. So tell me about what happened. And I want to talk about, you talked about the experience

with COVID on your show. How are you feeling, first of all? And you tell us how you think about the virus differently now. I would say I know I don't have the virus in me anymore. And I know that because I'm a lucky girl who has great, great doctors who can tell me that. But what I have felt more than anything is this overwhelming sense of confusion, not really knowing how I'm doing. You know, you get past your 14 days and if you still feel lousy, can you be around anyone? Even understanding how quarantine works, how being contagious works. And I'll tell you, you, my friend kept saying to me, take this thing seriously. Because I think a lot of people, even when they get a positive

COVID diagnosis, they're assuming this is a disaster and I'm going to need to go to a hospital. Just because you don't have to go to a hospital doesn't mean, A, you're not super contagious, and B, it doesn't mean you're sick. You're not sick. So while I don't have the virus in me, I can tell you I have never been this exhausted, and that has me worried. I don't know how long it's going to take to sort of get back to myself. Yeah, what we're trying to underscore is we're not all not celebrities like Rudy Giuliani, that we get to go into the hospital, get the very latest. Because there are some treatments that work rather well now. They've sort of gotten very good at dealing with people who are not extraordinarily sick. But that's what amazes me more about president Trump than Giuliani. I would have thought after Trump had it,

he would have a empathy would have kicked in for him and doesn't have that. Well, okay. But if you were a normal person, empathy would have kicked in and he would have realized, look at this unbelievable care. I got, look at these doctors, look at all these answers. I got, imagine what this is like for the rest of the world. Cause let me tell you, that is what overwhelmed me for the two weeks when I was sitting home. But even if it wasn't empathy, I don't understand on the other side how the president didn't have sheer, brutal political instinct to say, oh my God, this is impacting this entire country. What do I do now that I've experienced COVID knowing what this is like? What do I do now that I've experienced COVID knowing what this is like? What do I do to say, I'm sorry, America, I didn't realize what this was like. Time to really

do something. I don't understand how after Trump having this, he still stayed on the path of quasi denial. And to me- Because he said, I got over it. Suck it up, Sally. That's really, I think, Yes, because for him, he and the White House get rapid COVID tests every single time they walk into a room, having no understanding of how brutal it is to even get a test, then get your test results. And then when you do, and they're contradictory, people are like, oh, well, that test wasn't that great. Trump doesn't have to experience any of that. Right. So when you look back, having had it, and I'm glad you're feeling better, but you're still going to have repercussions.

What do you, how do you, people have sort of, I've had this sort of magical answer of vaccine. It's always, and I think we had Michael Minow on the other day, and he's talked about the idea that it's as if, you know, London was getting bombed and they said the F-22 is coming or, you know what I mean? And not doing anything else to protect from bombs, essentially, until we're waiting for the magical vaccine to kick in. To me, the abject failure of our government, which has crushed us from a health and economic perspective, is testing. Just think about this, Cara. The minute you, technically, as soon as you know you have exposure you're supposed to quarantine most people cannot afford a lot of people can't afford to quarantine or they're unwilling to do it or

they think they're isolating means you are around no one for 14 days people aren't really doing that no but if we have i can tell you when i actually i was never officially contact traced by the government but when i went and made calls to contact trace myself, people don't want to take your call. We know from COVID, if you wash your hands, wear a mask, you're socially distant, we're lowering the risk, you get it. But if you do get it, the answer is quarantine. So if they had done anything around testing, we should be at a place now where you have an app on your phone where you can see if you're positive or negative. And that will change the decision you make whether or not you walk out of the front of your house. My entire family-

Or you're not allowed to. Like in Taiwan, they had a cooperative system, but it was quite strict. It's like they find you if you did that. And they kept people in hotels. They had a really great system of feeding them and keeping them in hotels. And they had almost no, and they stayed open. They stayed open. And listen, would I have liked to have gone to a hotel for two weeks or my husband? I wouldn't have liked it, but I absolutely would have gone because at the very least, the stress and pressure you're under, how complicated it is to actually quarantine. stress and pressure you're under, how complicated it is to actually quarantine. I had the privilege that I have enough spaces and people in my life to help me quarantine. Most people don't have

that privilege. And our government is basically saying, do the right thing. And we're giving you nothing to help you do that. So to me, if we would have sorted out testing, we could have schools and businesses open. Technically, Cara, I could have gone into any store on any day when I had COVID because I never had a fever. My kids quarantined for the amount of time. They didn't technically have to get a test. My kids would have gone into three different schools and infected all three schools. They only got a test because my employer mailed me an at-home test at the end of it. Which is amazing. So how do you think the vaccine will immediately affect the

U.S. economy? Let's get into the economy now that we've already done the damage, the unnecessary damage, by the way. I mean, listen, things are going to open back up, right? There's enormous pent-up demand. It's not like we're not spending money. When you look at the stock market, one of the reasons so many big public businesses are doing so well is because that's where we're spending money. Look at DoorDash. Once the economy opens back up, we're not going to need DoorDash. DoorDash had one of the most phenomenal IPOs out there. Why? Because we need to have our food delivered because we can't go into restaurants. You're going to see a good portion of that reverse. And it's very sad because all of these big business, and remember, DoorDash takes a cut

from your favorite little local restaurant where you're ordering from. So while people are saying, oh, the stock market's doing so well, part of the fuel that's pushing the stock market up is the lifeblood of American small business that's dying at this moment. Right, right. Now, when you think about that, the impact, what do you see in the short term, the medium term, and the long term for the economy? You know, Scott, our Scott, often says, like, listen, help people, not businesses. And I completely get that. However, we are going to lose, we already have over 100,000 small businesses. That's not going to change. And if you think about so many of those jobs in the hospitality industry,

they're not coming back anytime soon. On a big level, things that I don't see coming back right away, let's be honest, corporate travel. Do you really think we're going to get right back to that? Everybody flying to this meeting, flying to that meeting, rushing to every possible conference out there? No, I don't need to. You realize you don't need to. I'm so glad. I always hated traveling. And so now I think people are going to travel, but not nearly as much as they did. Because if you run a corporation, you may have figured out that your business can survive with everybody working from home. But lots of businesses have had a huge loss in productivity, and they're not thriving. And they are going to keep costs down. They're not going to bring back

lots of travel. And lots of executives have a lot less support than we once did. And that's probably going to stay for a while. I think you're going to see low-level people not get jobs back. Meanwhile, New York is shutting, speaking of people who are struggling, New York is shutting down indoor dining, but we still don't have a new federal relief packages for small business and workers and individuals. How does this play out? You have, you know, Nancy, I don't even understand what's happening. It just is so confusing. I don't even understand it. And it's,

you know, last week. And you cover it. I do. But, you know, last week I was interviewing Bernie Sanders and it ended up, I ended up infuriating him. He called me after the show and told me how angry he was. And while I thought we settled things, the Bernie bro swarm has been attacking me ever since. And I was just trying to make the argument to him. They've got to find a middle ground. Like Cara in business, he's been blocking in business. You and I can hate one another's guts, but we, but if we work together every day, we have to find some sort of middle ground because we need our company to make money or otherwise we're all going to lose our jobs. Somehow in politics, they don't do that.

I'm not trying to dog on the Heroes Act. The Heroes Act is beautiful. But if all you're going to do is get Congress to vote to pass it, you can put that in your pipe and smoke it. It means nothing. Like you might say, I hate Mitch McConnell's guts. He's the worst person on earth. Great.

Super. Fantastic. I'd say I hate Mitch McConnell's guts. He's the worst person on earth. Great, super, fantastic. But if you want to get something done, if Republicans or Democrats want to get something done for all the people and the businesses in their states, and it's not just blue states suffering, red states are suffering too, you've got to figure out how to play ball.

So where do you see, how is it going to play ball? What was your issue with Bernie Sanders so we can get more Bernie bros on you? So I had, and I didn't, I honestly didn't mean to be sassy with him. No, It's okay. He can take it. That crusty old man. He was coming on MSNBC to talk about, uh, that he's pushing this idea for 1200 bucks. I love that idea. I want that all the support, all the stimulus, bring it on. But I said to him, great. I understand what your plan is. He's obviously been talking about, He's going on MSNBC talking about it.

Great. So what is MSNBC audience going to do? Say, amen. Hallelujah. I asked him, great, what Republican senators do you have on board to vote for this? And then I said something that maybe was too sassy. And I said, you've won the hearts and minds of millions of American people. And he has. And I said, but you know, you haven't had enormous success over

the last 30 years getting a lot of your initiatives made into law. Do you need to change another lane? And I wasn't saying do you need to want something else? But what I'm saying is, do you need to figure out a different way to get Republicans to work with you? We're in crisis. This isn't like a philosophical debate about what kind of health care you think we should have in a perfect world. People are dying. People are losing their homes. What are we going to do right now to get both groups that hate each other to find a way to vote together? Right.

Yeah. And, of course, like the Bernie. Essentially, he thought you were telling him he did nothing for years. I think that's what he probably was saying. Yes, and the Bernie swarm is saying, you are a corporate hack. You're not somebody who even wants to help people. I do want to help people, but I'm just saying,

I think we have to get brutally practical here to get something done. In the business world, you don't get to be idealistic. That's how you go out of business. All right, so speaking of which, I hard-hearted Stephanie Rule and the nice, soft, squishy Bernie. He's such a good guy. Anyway, what do you, what do you imagine is going to happen in the short, long-term? We've seen this, this crazy IPOs from Airbnb, DoorDash, et cetera. The stock market

looks great. You can't tell whether it's thrilled that Trump lost or that Trump is taking credit for it. What do you see the medium, the short term and then the long term? What are the things people have to focus on coming out of this? I am very worried about political will here. Just think about people you know, Cara, in the spring. We're willing to lock down. We're a lot more afraid of COVID. Now the COVID numbers are worse than ever. People aren't nearly as disciplined when it comes to

locking down. True. Right. Wealthy people are looking at the stock market. They're enjoying working from home and they're basically figuring workarounds. Because if you are somebody who really is vulnerable, you know, you can get the Giuliani or the Trump treatment and you'll be OK. And if you're somebody who's privileged but not at risk like they are, you think you might get COVID like I did. Get sick, but not in a devastating way. And so I'm worried that we're losing some much needed political will that maybe we'll see solved come January 20th. But between now and January 20th, lives, livelihoods, homes, people are losing by the day. Shoplifting is going up in this country, Cara.

Shoplifting for baby formula and diapers. Right, right, right. Now Scott has returned from wherever, whence he came. What a thrill. From shoplifting, probably. What a thrill. Or package theft. That's his other side job. Scott, we've been talking about Stephanie's illness and where the economy is going, but she hasn't gotten into the Biden administration. Why don't you start and ask a question or two, since I'm carrying your water, since whatever you were. Well, I'm just curious. First off, since whatever you were.

Well, I'm just curious. First off, Stephanie, I mean this even more than usual. It is wonderful to see you. Thank you. And my, obviously, best to you and your family, and I love the work you're doing. So my question is, just as you have, this is, I would assume, one of the bigger health scares you and your family have faced,

even if it's more of an existential one than actual threat to your health, because you're all fairly young and fairly healthy. And I know there's an X factor here, but have you thought at all about how you think this will change the way that health care is delivered or that you will consume health care? If we don't walk away from this as an urgent need to address health inequity in this country, then we have no leadership, right? I'm the luckiest girl in the world who has access to all sorts of support and I could barely get a test and I really couldn't get test results. If we don't look at this, if we don't get to the back of this and say, why is it that the poorest people in this country got sick and died?

Why don't they have access to doctors? I mean, it's crazy. When I would sit, when I walked into NYU Hospital on Friday to get checked, I thought about, look at all of these health care workers, the 40 people I saw cleaning the building, every doctor, every nurse, and what are we doing for them? How are we honoring healthcare in this country? And I'm not saying the answer is Medicare for all, but the answer on the heels of this has to be, is there a way to refocus how we look at healthcare in terms of people before insurance companies? And that's what we've got to do. Even from an economic perspective, right? You get the COVID test and it's free,

or you get the vaccine and it's free. We're not saving money. We are spending an enormous amount of money because we didn't figure out testing. Had we figured out accurate, broad, rapid testing, many, many people and businesses would be back at work and there'd be more people alive today because loads of people have COVID and don't know they have it because there are people like me who are kind of sick, who could kind of go to work, or lots of other people convince themselves they don't have COVID because they can't afford not to go to work. Those people are all super spreaders. My question is, if MSNBC can figure out a way to disperse your studio and Rockefeller Center to your cottage in New Jersey, shouldn't we be able to distribute that NYU urgent care?

I don't know if it was the ER or just that. Shouldn't they be able to disperse it to your home? Isn't there just a huge opportunity to get off our heels and onto our toes with healthcare and push it out, if you will? There is a huge opportunity, right? In theory, I didn't need to ever go to a doctor. Like, I didn't, right? My employer sent me a test at home, which I put in a FedEx and I mailed and got the results.

My employer did that. We could do it in a bigger way. We don't need to be necessarily people who aren't super sick, but people who have something people, we can be doing Teladoc appointments. We can be getting these things. All right. If you would have said to me a year ago, we're going to do Teladoc appointments when my kids were sick, I would be like, never. I need that doctor to see my child and touch my child. No, you don't. And you can see millions more people if you are banging it out, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang over Zoom. Well, the only thing is, you know, you talk about this, everybody's suddenly realizing it. You know, I just interviewed the Secretary of State of Georgia and he was like,

well, I got death threats. I'm like, you know, Stacey Abrams has been getting for years. Like, now you get it. Now you get it. Do you think it actually sticks with people, you know, once they get back to their comfort land? I think that's the best question, right? It's like, I remember when I was in college and I spent a semester studying in Kenya. And before I came home, you know, writing the letters to my parents, like, I don't want any more material goods. I don't want you to send me a Christmas present ever. Nothing. Like I want to do is give to the poor. That's what I'm devoting my life to. And then I came home the week before Christmas. And then on Christmas Eve, I was like, hey, so what do you think you're going to get me for Christmas tomorrow? I mean,

experiencing horrific things gives us perspective. But if we are foolish enough to think, oh my God, this was the wake up call foolish enough to think, oh, my God, this was the wake up call we needed to change the way we deliver medicine, to change the way we govern. It's not. But we have to figure out a way. We collectively have experienced COVID. How can we as a country use this perspective to come together and do some level of good? And Scott, I think you're coming from a place where you're saying from a business perspective, how can we deliver healthcare? Yeah, there are enormous business opportunities before us. The question is, are people going to pick them up and run with them? The probability is yes. Let's talk Biden then. Let's talk Biden then,

because he's going to be in charge. Despite legislation, he still has a lot of power. What are you looking forward to given the selections he's made economically, et cetera? I mean, so far, Biden has chosen pretty non-controversial experts. And that's what we need, right? We need a steady group of experts. And Biden himself said, I'm not going to be your radical leader. I'm going to be your bridge president. And I think now, even more than 10 months ago, you see an enormous amount of American people say, that's what we need. We need to get back on our feet again.

And one thing I do hope they really look at in their first 100 days beyond COVID, how many times have we said in the last four years, Trump is breaking norms. This is out of protocol. They shouldn't be doing this. But technically, they were allowed to do lots and out of protocol. They shouldn't be doing this. But technically, they were allowed to do lots and lots of things. Right. So all the things that everybody set their hair on fire over the last four years that we said was breaking the norms and totally corrupt, and they shouldn't be doing it. When Trump would be blowing his nose with subpoenas, figure out what that long list of things are and close all those loopholes in your first 100 days.

Because guess what? Just because Trump isn't president anymore, he may have just given every future potential autocrat the playbook for here's how you do it. Right. Right. A lot of Trump appointees, not a lot. Some Trump appointees are still going to be in their jobs. Right. You've got you've got Postmaster General. He's still going to be in his job. In the next three weeks, you've got the Trump administration still appointing Trump people to really important posts. If you think these guys are going away, they're not. They're staying around. They're finding ways to cash in. And if they did it in ways that were unethical, then time to change the law. All three of us spent a lot of time after 08 hearing people

say, and we said, man, there were some really bad actors in the banking industry. Like they should go to jail. None of them went to jail because technically they didn't do anything illegal. So everybody should get their outrage notebook back, say what were the things that were the most egregious, the most outrageous and change the rules so they don't happen again. the things that were the most egregious, the most outrageous, and change the rules so they don't happen again. Stephanie, COVID has put you on fuego. I don't know. What do you think about with that? I think I, we'll see. I think we'll go right back to comfort zone. I think you're going, I'm going to ask what I'm getting for Christmas, or America is going to ask after pretending it cares. In terms of healthcare? Everything. You're more cynical than me, which is strange. after pretending it cares, is going to ask everything. Hmm.

You're more cynical than me, which is strange. I'm curious, sort of the game of thrones around media companies in terms of how they intersect with politics and the change in politics. You have the Trump administration raising, or Trump raising, a quarter of a billion dollars to develop sort of what looks like a shadow presidency. But his typical front or propaganda machine for News Corp has new threats, there's some notion that once the Trump show goes away and we have the pleasure of not thinking about the president maybe once but every two weeks, that a lot of networks will suffer. How do you see things shifting in the kind of the Game of Thrones that is media or political media? Then, Scott, let us short-term suffer and dig deep and do some homework and provide better content. If the best we are is reality TV diving into the freak show every day,

if that's the only way we know how to get people to watch television, then maybe we don't deserve the big bucks. Maybe I don't deserve the big bucks. I don't, I'd like to think I don't get them, but, but I'm saying, yes, people love to tune into car crashes, but we as a country have gotten dumber and weaker in our priorities. Let's find a way to be better, Scott. You're a business, but I mean, you come from this. So what are you going to cover? The news every day, policy. Okay, here's a perfect example. I'm not really covering

Trump lawsuits in a very big way. And somebody called me this weekend and complained about that to me, somebody who kind of revels in the drama of it. And from my silly, simple girl perspective, Donald Trump is a lame duck president. The last two months of the Obama administration, Barack Obama could barely get a big headline. Nobody was paying attention. They were on to the next thing. And for me, everything I make, my goal is how do I help people get better and smarter? Covering President Trump sitting on his desk, crying and whining, this isn't fair, I'm still the president, is not my priority. And if people are thick enough that they want to mail him a check

to raise money for this nonsense fight to say he won, that's their own prerogative. But as long as that's not my tax dollars, I'm moving on. My question was more around, so if you think there's a dispersion of healthcare, bypassing hospitals and doctor's offices, going to smart cameras and handhelds, if Star Wars is moving to Disney Plus and your living rooms, if you think about really fantastic content that covers news and politics, it feels like at some point there's going to be a dispersion, that it's either going to go behind

a paywall. Let me ask it a different way. If you were to pair with two fantastic journalists or news people and start a brand new company, what would that company look like? It would be Kara, Scott, Stephanie. Go on. And maybe my boyfriend, Andrew Russorkin know, throw a little sports in the mix. I don't know. I think I don't know the answer to that. I think that because we deliver so much content for so many hours, we probably don't need to do that. Right. I think if you just delivered the smartest, best things in a more concise manner, then you'd get more bang for your buck, right? If I was an advertiser, like what hour is it of the,

I mean, there's just so much out there that is not of high value. What if we offered less hours and just offered good provocative stuff. That's a great idea. Speaking of which, my last question, so we got to go, Stephanie. The whole Hollywood thing going on with Jason Kyler, I did a beginner with him, obviously. There's been lots of stories about him. How do you look at this, this sort of explosion by Hollywood? What do you mean?

About putting movies online. Oh, oh, oh. Listen, from a personal perspective, I love it. I love being home. I love to be with my family. This Saturday night was the best Saturday night

I've had in ages. I watched my favorite Christmas movie, Love Actually, with my three kids. I didn't miss going to parties. I've never really liked actually going to the movies. I don't like that movie.

What? That's great. No, because it's all about sleeping with the help. But go ahead. Go ahead. You say that like it's a bad thing. Oh, my God. It's literally like, yes, white man, you can sleep with the help.

But okay, go ahead. Come on. No, everybody slept with everybody else. The scenes from Heathrow Airport, that shit's genius. Just take it apart. Just take it apart. That whole Heathrow Airport? I watched prom.

I watched prom. That's what I watched, which was great. What other content have you been consuming? I think this is really important. A lot of time at home. What does Stephanie roll? What content have you been consuming? It's funny you say that because I'm not somebody who watches a lot of TV just because I work in it and I have my kids.

Start. It's fantastic. I watched Queen's Gambit. Obviously worshipped it. I watched The Undoing. Loved it. But I have to say The Ending was a little bit predictable for me. And I was in love with Donald Suther worshipped it. I watched The Undoing, loved it, but I have to say the ending was a little bit predictable for me. And I was in love with Donald Sutherland in it. And I watched

Industry. Have you watched Industry? No. You and I live that. We live that. Yeah. You know, that show really hit on a lot of very, very true things for those of us who sort of grew up in investment banking and sales and trading. That show hasn't gotten a lot of attention. I think it was amazing. There was a little, either I missed out. So I'll tell you, when I first got into banking, the advice someone gave me was, don't ever stay out after midnight, don't drink, and don't have sex with anybody at work. And I obviously married somebody who i worked with so i missed that third one but man that show has so much sex and drugs in it that yeah that was

scott's experience yeah all three of those is like check check check um it's girls it's girls meets it's girls meets billions it's really if you're in it's investment banking analyst program in the 90s except it's in london it's in London. It's really, I think it's great. I did none of this, and I behaved beautifully, let me just say. Yeah, right. I did some of it. I did. Here we go.

I did. Here we go. Seven wives, harem, sultan of Subaru here. Yeah. Right. All right. We have to go, Stephanie. If you weren't you, you'd be horrified by you.

Listen to me. Listen to me. Listen to me. Listen to me. Stephanie, we truly appreciate it. We want you to get better. Thank you so much. Do not overestimate the impact of this. Many of my friends have had it, and there are repercussions from it that continue.

I'm going to leave you all and take a nap right now. Take a nap. How much do we love Stephanie Ruhl? We love Stephanie Ruhl. How much do we love Stephanie Ruhl? All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails. Support for this podcast comes from Anthropic.

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That's your win. Is that your win? Is that your win? It's my fail. You know, Rupert Murdoch is my fail. Like, I tacked him this weekend. I got so many likes, which made me feel better.

But, I mean, look, the Wall Street Journal did this incredibly misogynistic thing and also just rude and calling her kiddo and whatever. You know, and then Paul Gigo, who I know barely, incredibly misogynistic thing and also just rude and calling her kiddo and whatever, you know? And then this, then, then Paul Gigo, who I know barely, was like, oh, it's cancel culture. No, you just have a shitty take, Paul. And people said it was shitty. That was it. Everyone using this cancel culture excuse, like they didn't, nobody stopped them from publishing it. Nobody

like made them take it down. Nobody canceled them. They just said, you're shitty. That's all. Like, I want to return to the word cancel culture. Stop saying it and just take responsibility for your crappy stories, which was crappy. I'm sorry. It was just a crappy story. And calling your kid, it's just like, it's just shitty. It's just shitty.

And then at the same time, the New York Post, also owned by Rupert Murdoch, then sort of slut-shamed a woman who was making money on OnlyFans and also was an EMT. You know, screw them. Screw them. She can do whatever she wants. It's sex-shaming. Do you have her account?

No. God, it's usual. In any case, and then... Just trying to help out. The Rupert Murdoch-owned Fox News let that, whatever, that idiot in the morning, that idiot who does interviews, they don't even interview,

let President Trump put up, because they're worried about losing people to Newsmax, which they should be, spew all kinds of nonsense, false nonsense all over the place. Rupert Murdoch is literally the most dangerous. You talk about Mark Zuckerberg, we talk about it. Rupert Murdoch has been the most dangerous media figure in history at this

moment, I think, one of them. Thank you. So this is a big story around the halls of NYU, or the virtual halls, right? Because the majority of my colleagues have a PhD, they have a doctorate, and they deserve, they spend three to five years beyond postgraduate work defending their thesis, trying to come up with something original. They don't get paid a lot, and they are kind of the best and brightest in their field for a moment. The majority of Nobel Prize winners, the reason they get the Nobel Prize is based on their work, their doctoral work. So these people deserve to be, they deserve the term doctor. The question is the context within which they actually use it. And I think that, I think there was a point, a valid point here that unfortunately got

wallpapered over by the fact they acted like assholes trying to make what I thought was somewhat of a valid point, and it's the following. That in academia, and I want to be clear, I'm not a doctor. People oftentimes, Michael Smirconish last week introduced me as Dr. Galloway, and I'm like, no, I just have a graduate degree. I don't have a doctorate. So they deserve that title. I'm going to call you Lady Galloway, but go ahead. There we go. But here's the thing. In the context of academia, we don't usually use that title

because we want to distinguish ourselves from medical professionals or that we want to let them have that distinction. So I do think there's some truth that in the context that is Madam Elect Vice President, the broader context, she probably shouldn't refer to herself as doctor. We know she has a doctorate. I think that's wonderful. The way they went about it was absolutely asinine and just reeked of misogyny. It's like, would they have said that to a man? So, I think the point is a fair one, that in academia, we don't refer, academics who have PhDs don't refer to themselves, nor do they ask people to call them doctor. We get it. But this article was so ham-handed,

it just came across as... Shitty take, shitty take. There used to be a thing called shitty take in journalism, and this is one of them. And we want to, you know, it's fine to say, I've done shitty takes. Like, come on, just live it, love it, be it. Anyway, yours?

Oh, by the way, let me say my win once again is Cobra Kai getting a fourth season. Oh, I didn't know that. That's a great win. I love that show. There was one. I'm just in the first season. And I have to say, there's one point when they're about to fight the two original people, which they keep almost fighting all the time.

And they're getting ready to do it. And then the wife comes out and is like, are you frigging kidding me? And she goes, I'm making breakfast. And then the blonde kid, the guy that goes, I could eat. Like, it just is so funny. It makes me laugh and laugh and laugh. And they're all, and they played REO Speedwagon. So I'm just happy as a clam watching that show. Anyway, go ahead. I'm glad they got the four seasons. I'm going to have Ralph Macchio on Sway, I think. Anyway, go ahead. I'm glad they got the fourth season.

I'm going to have Ralph Macchio on sway, I think. Well, my win and fail is the vaccine, and my fail is the lack of patriotism and science denial and selfishness that people are demonstrated with their general gestalt around the vaccine and if and when they'll take it. If you think about the science of this vaccine, two of them are messenger RNA. One of them actually puts like a traditional vaccine some of the hamstrung diminished form of the virus into you the reality is that the number of people who've had adverse reactions to vaccines

is just so tiny that almost any activity you can name presents bigger risks in addition the substance that they are actually introducing to your body is out of your body within a couple weeks. The notion of long-term effects, if you look at the history of vaccines, the number of adverse reactions almost happen almost always immediately, meaning that we have starched out that risk because the majority of clinical trials have already extended beyond

that time period. So, you are talking about risks that are so tiny, and when people even use the term risk, unfortunately, it's a word that encompasses all risk. It's not really fair. The risks here are so marginal. In addition, in addition, I keep hearing from a lot of what I'll call my cohort that they're going to wait a while. Well, you know what? It's not about you. This isn't about you. There is a web of death and disability waving across America. And if we don't get to herd immunity, 60% of Americans could get this. That's approximately 250 million people. Call the mortality rate 1%. That's 2.5 million people. 300,000 have died already. There are 2.2 million people who are really vulnerable. And when

you decide not to take those tiny risks such that you can no longer be a threat, you are no longer part of this hideous, horrific wave, you are putting other people's lives at risk. in May of 1940, the Germans drove 400,000 Dutch, French, and British soldiers to the beaches of Dunkirk. And the word went out, if we lose these 400 people, it's going to be a turkey shoot. They were stranded. The panzer tanks, for some reason, didn't come in because Hitler supposedly wasn't woken up. Some general didn't want to wake Hitler up. If we had lost those 400,000 people, the war would have been over, and who knows what this world would have looked like. And what did the British do? Well, you can meet Philip Roth,

but go ahead. What did the British do? They said, these guys, these young men need to get off the beach. And every sailboat, fishing trawler, anything that floated headed over to Dunkirk and got those 400,000 young men off the beach. And you know what? We have 2 million people in this nation, brothers and sisters, on the beach right now that will die if we don't get to herd immunity. So this isn't fucking about you. So few of us, so few of us have had any call to service. This is a small call, but it is a call. It is a call.

And register that call. Take that call. Get a vaccine. It's not about you. It's about not being a fiber in this threat of death. And look at the goddamn numbers here. The risks are anemic. Let's get 2 million of our fellow

Americans off the beach. Yep. Thank you. I love your shut the fuck up. Shut the fuck up, you people. Stop. I love it. I love it. Winston Churchill, let me just clap for you on that one. We will fight them in the- We will never surrender. We will fight them in the wall wall. That surrender. We will fight them in the wall wall. That's right. We will go to CVS. We will roll up our sleeves. They will wear their masks and get their vaccines. That's right.

All right. Well, I'm going to wait a little while. Fuck you. Fuck you. That's right. Oh, good. I like it. I like that we agree on this.

What would you do if I was- First in line. Be first in line. Exactly. Let me just say, what would you do if I was an anti-vaxxer? It would be ugly. I, good. I like it. I like that we agree on this. First in line. Be first in line. Exactly. Let me just say, what would you do if I was an anti-vaxxer? It would be ugly. I'm not. It's just so strange, isn't it?

Yes. And people have gone so foxy. Reasonable people are like, well, how might it affect me? You know what you are when you wait? You're a free rider. And you're a science denier. And you can't do math. Free rider.

Anyway, I think I want to really, I think thirst in line should be a national concept. You have your freedom to kill other people. It's tyranny. It's tyranny, Kara. Jesus. I'd like to give them some tyranny and then we'll see. Also, tiramisu. Anyway, Scott, that's the show.

I love your call to arms, Winnie. I'm going to call you Winnie from now on. As a reminder, we love the listener mail questions, and we're trying something new. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit your question for the Pivot podcast. The link is also in our show notes. Read us out, Scott. Today's show was produced by Rebecca Sinanis.

Ernie Indradot engineered this episode. Erica Anderson is Pivot's executive producer. Thanks also to Hannah Rosen and Drew Burrows. Make sure you subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts. Or if you're an Android user, check us out on Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you liked our show, please recommend it to a friend. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business.

Kara, this is our generation call. We shall fight them in the 7-Eleven. Heed the call. Support for this podcast comes from Klaviyo. You know that feeling when your favorite brand really gets you. Deliver that feeling to your customers every time. Klaviyo turns your customer data into real-time connections across AI-powered email, SMS, and more, making every

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