Pivot - Democrats Divided, Market Roller Coaster, and Southwest Airlines

Episode Date: March 18, 2025

Kara and Scott discuss cracks in the Democratic Party after the shutdown showdown, and the Dems' missed messaging opportunity on the economy. Then, President Trump puts Voice of America and another agencies on the chopping block, and gives an hour long speech to The Justice Department. Plus, Southwest Airlines says no more free bags. Is the long-term brand cost worth the short-term gain? Follow us on Instagram and Threads at @pivotpodcastofficial. Follow us on Bluesky at @pivotpod.bsky.social. Follow us on TikTok at @pivotpodcast. Send us your questions by calling us at 855-51-PIVOT, or at nymag.com/pivot. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Acura, precision crafted performance. Learn more at Acura.com. I just can't wait till I'm single again and I dress up for Halloween. I'm going to dress up as Southwest Airlines and fuck a bunch of people. Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher. Happy belated St. Patrick's Day, Scott Galloway,

even though you're Scottish. So I went out and got fucked up, went into the url, and the guy next to me says, wow, he's had circumcised? I'm like, nope, that's just the wear and tear. Oh my God. So I got back last night from Mexico. We're not gonna say where you went,

but you went to an exciting wedding. I went to a wonderful wedding. Yeah, how was it? It was lovely. It was a mix of really meaningful. They're both really lovely people and lovely friends. Everyone was very happy and of course, fabulous. It was like a beautiful setting, beautiful people. We had a really nice time.

I had a- Oh, nice. Yeah, it was great. Anything exciting happened? Did you do anything embarrassing for the team here? Well, come on. That's- Scott Galloway and I'm doing things embarrassing. That's redundant.

I think that's part of the reason people invite me, though. Yeah. You know what the best gift is? I'm being very serious. What? Okay. The best gift you can give anyone for their wedding, in my view, is to get a little too fucked up

and have an amazing time, and I do both those things. Good, did you do a toast? No, I'm not in the A circle. No, okay, what are you, like D list? I don't know if this says anything, but on my wedding invitation, it said seat filler. Everybody knows, everybody knows, everybody knows I'll get fucked up

and be on the dance floor, and they know I'll bring someone hot. Okay. You did those things. Yeah. You're a lovely wife, I assume. I'm a seat filler. Good. I'm glad you had a good time. Sorry I wasn't there. I was moving my mom into assisted living,

which was not quite as glamorous. That sounds close. Although it's a nice place. It's really lovely and glamorous, although. That sounds close. Although it was, it was, it was not, it's a nice place. It's really lovely and the people are wonderful and they're in DC. And I have to say, they handle every, there's so much stuff to do and they handle, and let me just tell you something, amazingly,

the food at this fucking place is so good, I don't even know what to say. I like would go, I would go there every night. The food is so good. Like, not a little good. I'm I would go there every night, the food is so good. Not a little good. I'm gonna take you there, Scott, because everyone's like no. No, you're not.

I mean, you're gonna take me there in about 20 years. Now, I understand, but it's a beautiful place. It's one of these high-end ones. And I literally, everyone's like, the food can't be good. I bring it back to Amanda, and she's like, that's fucking delicious. It's like, I wanna eat there. It's like, I want to eat there. It's like so good.

So anyway, I was pretty pleased with that. Let me just give everyone a quick fly on the wall excerpt from my weekend versus your weekend. Well, what the fuck, we're in Tulum, sure I'll do X. That was me. And an excerpt from your end. You've always been a disappointment to me. Actually, it's going better than I thought. I ordered my mom, the New York Times and the

New York Post to be delivered here, so that's a good sign so she can have her daily intake of crap and good news, good well-done news. But anyway, she has a beautiful place. It worked out as best as it could and we brought her to the house for dinner and it's working. I'm glad it went well. That's nice. It's going to be a lot for Kara Swisher. This is the third try for dinner and it's working. I'm glad it went well. That's nice. It's going to be a lot for Kara Swisher. This is the third try for Lucky and it's going to stick. Let me just tell you it's going to stick. Anyway, otherwise, I was moving into my house too.

So it's been a really glamorous meet unpacking boxes. You got a lot going on. I do. This morning I was like, I dropped Claire off then went and got candy cakes from my mom. Do you know those peanut butter things from Tasty Cake? Got those. I don't. I bought a series of National Enquirer.

She likes people, National Enquirer, in touch. I was embarrassed at the giant food to buy those things, but I did and then visited her and then came here. Well, it's 30 feet long and smells like piss. What? The line dance at a senior's home. Oh my God, that's terrible. You know what, Scott?

It's coming for all of us, let's just say. Diapers depends be coming for you someday. We come into and leave this world in diapers. It's true, it's true. Anyway, anyhow, it's going really well, and I think she's having a relatively good time for her. Anyway, today we'll talk about the economy as the S&P tries to recover from correction territory as well as the effects of the latest round of Trump's executive orders.

But first, big cracks are showing in the Democratic Party after 10 Senate Democrats voted with Republicans to avoid a government shutdown this past week. Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer infuriated fellow party members by crossing the aisle of the past, the President Trump's approved stopgap measure. Prominent Dems such as Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez wanted to force a shutdown to protest Trump and Elon Musk's federal spending cuts. Schumer defended his decision to Lulu Garcia Navarro of the New York Times on Sunday. Here's what he said.

Let me explain. A shutdown would shut down all government agencies and it would solely be up to Trump and Doge and Musk what to open again because they could determine what was essential. So their goal of shutting down, of defamating the whole federal government, of cutting agency after agency after agency would occur under a shutdown. It would be devastating. Two days from now on a shutdown, they could say, well, snap, food stamps for kids is not essential. It's gone. All veterans offices in rural areas are gone. Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, they're not essential. We're cutting them back.

That is his excuse, although how did you get in the fucking situation, Chuck? That's one of the things I would say. He's not really a terrific leader at the same time. He has a point. At the same time, they're cutting down the government. They are anyway, slowly. This is a quicker way to do it. So talk about this lesser of two evils thing. I've been talking to both, you know, I think the Republicans got them in a jam, is what

they did. There's rumors that Democrats are urging AOC to primary Schumer. So talk a little bit about this because I think it's two choices of despair with one of the Democrats talking about it. There's a real shift of like, let them shut it down then and let's see what people think. Then there are others of low, no,

they're going to shut it down, trying to protect all your marbles. So any thoughts? There's always a good excuse for failure. How did the democratic leadership put us in a position of bad choices between bad choices? And shutting down the government, I mean, Senate leader Schumer or minority leader Schumer

always has a good excuse for failure. Yeah, he does. And shutting down the government, yeah. What does that mean? Shutting down what is now an operating system for bypassing the courts and bypassing Congress? At some point, we have to be the party of not fucking around, not the reasonable party that's thoughtful and always is on the wrong end of every strategic move. We absolutely, in my view, should have said, fine.

Republican states, Republicans need to see that if you, if the government is now an operating system for, for your march towards autocracy, we're not down and we're shutting down the government. I don't believe Democrats would have got the blame here. I think if 58 days post whatever it is, inauguration, the government is shut down, I think the majority of it would have stuck to Trump. I think that a lot of Republicans who voted for Trump would have been hurt and seen that, okay, this is what you voted for. And there's also, it's not

binary. There was a mid step. If they had been more coordinated, they could have probably run an effective filibuster and at least gotten some of the things they wanted. Instead, they have passed a spending deal which essentially gives Doge and Trump carte blanche to continue to do what they're doing. Right. So this is, I believe that AOC is going to be the junior senator from New York in 2028.

I think Senator Schumer has consistently been played by the other side. I think he isumer has consistently been played by the other side. I think he is a weak leader, and I think he embodies the absolute definition of what it means to be a Democrat or the Democratic Party right now, and that is they have not discerned the difference between being right and being effective. Right, which you talked about. I mean, the Federman was also on the side, we don't shut the government down. Now, Ted Cruz tried to do this with Obamacare. Remember, he pushed that shutdown and I know the Republicans suffered for it.

In a similar jam, the Republicans were in a jam for years, right? They had this kind of situation. But Obamacare was popular. People wanted Obamacare. People don't want this. Right, right. Well, that's the argument is that whoever initiates the shutdown holds the bag of shit, essentially. Yeah, but they're, okay, they're in control. I think Obama was in control then, too. I don't think they would, I don't think that the way this is going,

they're essentially trying to shut down the government slowly and pick which parts of government they wanna shut down. So I think you could absolutely say, I'm sorry, who's shutting down government? They're the ones firing everyone without any sort of congressional oversight. They're the ones who have decided, okay, they're not going to make, this isn't about efficiency or an audit. This is about political decisions with no constitutional oversight and most frightening, I know we're going to talk about this, they have now decided This isn't about efficiency or an audit. This is about political decisions with no constitutional oversight. And most frightening, I know we're going to talk about this,

they have now decided that the other branch of government that all of us were hoping would be the backstop, the courts, they're basically ignoring court orders. So, okay, if the government is now an operating system and a purse for a move towards autocracy, sorry, we're just going to shut it down. I agree with you. I think we were right when we said that in Austin, like, let them do it.

Let the chips fall where they may. And I don't think they have a choice because this is going to be a playbook for the Republicans the whole time. Like, put them in a jam, put them in a jam, and use Elon Musk as the boogeyman. Well, let him be a boogeyman then, right? Just let him. Let him look ridiculous, rich, over-privileged, cutting people, and yes, they can cut all this stuff. And I get that there's, it's just, when you're always playing defense and you're always trying to catch all the balls and stop all the eruptions, you are the loser in that game. Because they can just, they're acting like they're

in the minority in a weird way, even though they're in the majority, right? They're doing the bomb throwing, the blowing things up, everything else, which is really interesting to me. I think that Americans will vote for policies they don't agree on as long as they've sent strength and resolve. And right now, the Democratic Party that Americans will vote for policies they don't agree on as long as they've sent strength and resolve. And right now the Democratic Party

appears to lack all of those. Yeah, no, I think AOC has, seems to have, very articulate on this. Like, here's what we do. Like she seems to have a plan, like in that way. And Schumer's is sort of like, well, we don't want them to shut down the government faster. I'm like, well, they're doing it slower.

What's the fucking difference? Like, they're gonna do what they're gonna do until you win elections. That's pretty much it, right? Correct? Senate Minority Leader Schumer perfectly embodies the Democratic Party, weak, feckless, and believing that right is more important than effective. It just, he's a terrible leader

and he embodies everything that's bad about the Democratic Party, like a series of mealy-mouthed, weak, this is why I'm doing this. I listened to that New York Times interview. Jesus Christ, you want to talk about a weak leader? Listen to the constant excuses. I agree. Just the incredible denial.

We're winning. What are we going to do? Our message is getting out there and it's resonating with people. And it's like, are you drunk, stupid or both? Correct. The sad part about it is this is like watching Steve Young sit on the bench. If Joe Montana had been, I don't know, I can't name a bad quarterback. We have a fantastic men's

chair, we have Richard Torres. I don't agree with their politics, but I think AOC is. Hakeem Jeffries kind of dissed Sumer, which was interesting. He was trying to get something going on the house on this topic and voted again. And then why doesn't he? Right. And I know we all want to like Hakeem, but quite frankly, he,

for him to sit in the back and just act sullen, that doesn't do us any fucking good. Well, he did hold those group, that group together to vote against it. It's just that all the Republicans stayed together. They weren't expecting the Republicans. It was only one no vote. So he did hold those guys together, right? There could have been some peel offs among the Trump areas, you know, the people that

are in those mixed in those mixed areas. But he held them all together and Tumor did not, and obviously worked behind the scenes to get 10 people to do what he wanted them to do, which, ugh, they're all old, I bet. In every war, there is a nonviolence movement. We should practice nonviolence. It's like, well, okay, good luck with that. I understand, well, okay, good luck with that. I understand it in theory, but good luck with that. And I feel like... Let them do it and then let the media write about it and let people freak the fuck out and move the story back to Trump cutting government in half, right? That's what I say. So let's get to polls.

It's interesting. This is on the economy, but there's larger polls here because I do think there's real opportunity. Now, this new NBC poll shows that while Trump has his best approval rating ever, the majority of voters disapprove of how he's handled the economy so far. There's so much weakness there. We'll talk about the market flexion, but I'm going to read from Kristen Salta-Sanderson, who I really do trust. She's a conservative pollster. And she said that everything's mixed all over the place. And, you know, he thinks he has a mandate. But everything's mixed all over the place. And he thinks he has a mandate.

He thinks he can do all this stuff because he believes he has the latitude to go big and bold to create some turbulence and cause some prices to ride in the church as he asserts himself. But as I dug into Mr. Trump's polling data, it looked increasingly that American voters' mandate to the president was more narrow than he sees it. After a prolonged period of inflation with the Biden administration that told Americans not to believe their lying wallets, voters clearly wanted the next president to stabilize the economy and make their cost of living more

manageable. And so she's putting out that this is a very big opportunity for Democrats. You know what I mean? That they don't think what he's doing is great. But this is a dangerous gamble. Mr. Trump's agenda is carried out almost exclusively through executive power and public opinion gives government control Back to his opponents The affordable care act proved too difficult for republicans to uproot because it is enshrined by law by congress and many many Support it while mr. Trump's actions are products of pen and phone alone So the number one issue of america remains the number one issue and their real political risk to the strategy that asked voters to grin and bear it at the checkout line today for

a promise of something better tomorrow. That's what they're doing, the Trump administration. The S&P closed 10% below recent highs. It's now trailing major markets in Europe and China, as you've discussed. It's down about 6% the inauguration and Treasury Secretary Scott Besson, who sounds like a maggot now, called the correction healthy. Also, by the way, he has a $22 million house while he was saying, just suck it up to people. He was saying that the aftershocks are normal for a correction and you need to grin and

bear it. That's essentially what Scott Besson said. There's a question of what it does to the dollar. The New York Times pointed out over the weekend that Trump's trade war is leading to retaliatory tariffs that specifically target Trump voters. Nearly eight million Americans work in industries targeted by levies, and the majority are Trump voters. A New York Times analysis show they include corn, car makers, poultry, steel mills, and more. Consumer sentiment hit nearly a two and a half year low, and March inflation's expectations have surged.

So, talk about this, because this is a huge opportunity that the Democrats are not taking in any way. Okay, there's the markets and there's messaging and the markets, to be fair, if you're, if you think of, if you try to stay, have fidelity to the data, the markets have lost about six months of gains, but they're still up for 12 months. They're still up dramatically. And they're still, quite frankly, very expensive. So he could be doing everything that all economists agree with,

and the markets just might be letting off some steam from what are what I would call historic overvalued highs, something we've been talking about a long time. And I'm patting myself on the back here, but I said in November of 2024, we were going to see a 15-year reversal in the flows of capital out of the US into Europe and non-US markets. That reversal of the largest river of the world, and that is capital flowing into US growth stocks, that has happened.

We are seeing a reversal in capital flows out of the US and this might've been the catalyst for it. But the reality is the stock markets haven't crashed. They've corrected, they have not crashed or they've not even corrected. They've had a bad few months. Unemployment is still pretty low. Inflation is being stubborn,

but we haven't seen these dramatic upticks in inflation. People are worried about it. It could still happen. But the talking points here are such a missed opportunity. One, we're going to continue to fund for $60 billion or 8% of our military budget, a pushback on a murderous autocracy that is good for

democracy, we're going to continue to support democratic values and the majority of that revenue will return to America, including the majority of which will go to red states. We are going to control the deficit. We are going to look at, no, we're going to not only not have a tax cut, we're going to have an alternative minimum tax for the wealthy and corporations. Your tax rates are not going up, but we're going to make sure everybody just pays

what they're supposed to pay, and we're going to get responsible about the deficit. We need a massive leveling up of young people and of the middle class who should, if both people work, should have a reasonable lifestyle. We are going to raise minimum wage to $25 an hour. We are going to build 7 million homes, manufactured homes, which costs 30 to 50% less than a home built on site.

And we are gonna bring down the cost of people's housing. We have so many opportunities to say, we're the party of getting shit done. We're the party and at the same time, push back on the notion, no, we're not gonna give it to a murderous autocrat. We're going to maintain 80 year alliances, economic alliances that bring down the cost of everything

from tomatoes to lumber to cars. And we're proposing these things and let them go down in Congress. Let them be voted against. Let America say, does it make sense to have fantastic trading relationships that will bring down the cost of our products? Does it make sense to have corporations and the wealthy at least pay 30% of their profits, which they are not doing right now?

Does it make sense to not have an explosion in the deficit? Instead, we're just running around responding to everything that we think is outrageous, waiting for the rest of the public to get outraged when they're busy just trying to get by with their second and third jobs. So the messaging here has been terrible. The Democratic Party has shown no leadership other than their shock, their outrage of people are not more outraged. Again, and this is my call sign here, we need to be the party of ideas, not indignance. Yes, that's correct. So one of the things though,

I thought Besant, I was watching him this weekend, I thought he did so badly from a messaging point, speaking of messaging, I thought he looked rich. He looked like Scrooge McDuck. I don't know why, like a gay Scrooge McDuck, but it was really, gay has nothing to do with it, nonetheless, that's what he looked like to me. But it was really, gay has nothing to do with it, nonetheless. That's what he looked like to me. But it was a bad messaging. Like, you don't have any right to Chinese flat screens

Americans. I'm like, you know, fucking it's none of your business what I have a right to. It was so snotty. I thought I was I was sort of surprised by that messaging. And I thought he did a bad job on all the programs he appeared on. He looks like he's a rich guy telling poor people to suck it up. You'll appreciate later once we get through this. But I'm like, there's no pain for you anywhere along this route whatsoever. I don't know if that's resonant, but I was offended by him. And I got some money, right? I was like, wow, you're really obnoxious kind of personality. I think Wall Street was quite disturbed by him because they thought he was

sort of the reasonable guy. But again, this was him sticking his chin out, but there's no fist of stone from the fucking Democratic Party. That's correct. Yeah. He said he said America is not about cheaper things. That was an opportunity to go for a Democrat to say, let's be honest. America is an operating system that has created more prosperity than any, any nation in history. And prosperity means you get to work hard and you get to live really well,

which quite frankly, Mr. Bissett, that is the reason you are here. And once you're a billionaire, fine, it's easy for you to say, you're going to pay more for a flat screen TV, but there's a lot of Americans that do, that do expect to be able to send their kids to college, do expect to be able to take a nice vacation, do expect to be able to buy their kids a new pair of Nikes

that makes them feel good about themselves and about America. So yeah, it is about prosperity. What it's also about is an operating system to ensure that the least fortunate among us have a certain level of dignity because they know they are protected in terms of right to choose. They know they are protected to ensure that a bus, even if it's funded by the government,

will pick them up and take them to a decent school, C above the Department of Education. This was a huge opportunity to weigh in and say, boss, regarding prosperity, shut the fuck up. I was like, why is it even saying to shut the fuck up because I was saying it to the TV. I'm like, I'm not in business when I want to phone and buy plastic toys for my kids till the end of time. Yeah, easy for you to say from St. Barts as you're shoving up diamond glass dildos up your ass.

I mean, for God's sakes. There's no diamond. I hope you didn't do that this weekend, Scott. I would have tried. I would have tried. I know you would have. I was there. I was ready. Well, last thing on the economy. I saw the best animation over the weekend comparing Warren Buffett and Cathie Wood's strategies over the past four years. Warren Buffett's kicked some fucking ass, this guy. He likes value stocks.

Cathie likes, I guess, growth. I don't know quite... She's up 67. She's down 63. Like, it's crazy. He's had his ups and downs, but hers just kept going down. Why do people listen to her? Did you see that? I was like... Literally, the best thing we could do is to have the CIA plant her and Chamath as Russian asset managers, and we would bankrupt the country. Honestly, I just love, Lauren Buffett, look he's super old and he's not going to last that long,

but man does he have a fucking goat. I'm just saying, I just love that animation. Kathy Wood, I love a visual. I love a visual because you're like, see what I'm saying kind of stuff. It's the power of branding. She talks about things like hash rates with her big chunky glasses and says,

send me a billion dollars and I will turn it into 220 million. But look how cool my big chunky glasses are. And CNBC keeps bringing me on because I have a price target of $10,000 on Tesla. And that will enable them to sell more opioid-induced constipation ads despite the fact I have very few people of all. It is literally the lesson.

I'm going to have a class on branding, how branding can supersede actual performance on Cathie Wood. Oh my God. I'm so glad you're going to teach again. You should. That would be a really good class. Anyway, okay, Scott, let's go on a quick break. We come back.

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President Trump has placed another round of agency on the chopping block, including the Voice of America or VOA. It's kind of a screw you to Carrie Lake, but that's another issue. I am perfectly happy with that. The VOA run by the US Agency for Global Media broadcasts United States domestic news to hundreds of millions around the world to extend US influence and to combat authoritarianism. Carrie Lake, who Trump chose to run VOA, she was the one who keeps losing in Arizona, the loud nasty lady who keeps losing in Arizona, was planning to transform the outlet to fight

an information war. The cuts made in an executive order also targeted agencies which address homelessness fund libraries and promote economic development for minority and low-income communities. So basically everybody but the rich people. I don't know if the BOA cut matters. What do you think of this Voice of America cut? No big deal? Big deal? I mean, what is really, really staggering is there was an analysis done of how many

deaths are going to happen this year, unnecessary deaths from things like malaria, hunger, from this cut of $75 billion of USAID. And they're estimating just this year alone, there's gonna be 3 million deaths. And people say, okay, there's some powerful memes online saying what other nation taxes their people and sends money to us?

And the answer is, okay. One of the basic tenants of a post-World War II America, starting with what is arguably the most visionary act in economic political history, is we said, okay, Germany and Japan treated us really poorly. They were our enemy, but this is what we're gonna do. We're going to, in an act of extraordinary vision and generosity, we're going to pay for the reconstruction

of their societies. And overnight, not overnight, over a decade, we turned to formidable, unbelievable cultures that were incredibly formidable enemies into incredible allies. And it has really held the post-World War II peace and prosperity is that these two, the kind of the number two and number three economies

around the world until China were our allies. And they realized through this act of generosity, and we recognize that soft power is the hardest power in the world. Because you don't even know what wars don't break out. You don't even know what individual in an African country with a strong anti-American contingent refuses to work with them and cooperate.

Because they think, you know what? They're actually good people. Maybe we don't agree with them. Yeah, we need to be there. Maybe they make bad decisions, but at the end of the day, they try to do the right things. They're trying to stop AIDS in our country.

They're trying to stop hunger. They're willing to send aircraft. They're willing to send people in, put their boots on the ground when they sense there's actual genocide. That soft power for about 1% of our deficit creates margin power and goodwill that affects millions of decisions made every week around whether to help, work with, want to send your best and brightest to this nation.

This is like, these are investments in, for lack of a better term, brand building, where people think, I want to go to the US. I want to work with US companies. I don't want to take an American tourist hostage or kill them because they're nice people and their memory is long and their reach is far. Let's not fuck with them. Let's work with them. And so this withdrawal of soft power, when you look at the actual return we have gotten on this soft power is extraordinary. And something like the Voice of America, and I wanna be clear, there's,

I believe as an educator, the Department of Education should probably be smaller than it is. Universal testing nationally was a good idea. It hasn't worked. The 500 people of the 4,000 that work for the Department of Education should probably lose their job. I'm not against reducing the size of government, but when you just start cutting

everything, including things that are working really well and making people fool good about America and creating prosperity and margin power, and it's going to take decades to rebuild once we realized it was a bad idea to do away with it. So Carrie, like it's fun. Carrie, like it's a fucking distraction. That's a distraction. The question is, should we be spending a little bit of money to have our viewpoints transmitted in a thoughtful, well-produced way around the world? I think it's such a good spending of money.

And by the way, guess who's running into the space? The Russians and the Chinese. 100%. That's the thing. It's the smallest amount of money to spend, one to keep it away. We have a better story. And we're good at it. We're good at media. And by the way, the media is good. It's actually very clear.

It's, you know, they're like, oh, they're anti-Trump. This is the whole thing, you know, obsessing them. But if you're in, listen, Carey Lake, who I'm sorry is a village idiot, he was gonna transform the outlet to fight an information war. Yes, Kerry, that's what you need to do, but not in your trumped up ridiculous way.

It's giving people good information about the United States and what we're doing here. It shows we're present, it shows we care. It's like, even if it's, it's just very solid. I have listened to Voice of America elsewhere, and we also fund things like Radio for Europe, etc. I know there's some things, and I do think about this a lot,

that are of a different era and we shouldn't do anymore. Sometimes we have to change and things, but this is money well spent, especially when the Chinese and the Russians and other people are putting out all kinds of misinformation around the world and information about themselves, right? Not just misinformation, but look at us. and other people are putting out all kinds of misinformation around the world and information about themselves, right?

Not just misinformation, but look at us, look at what we're doing and stuff like that. And I just think it's just the best way to say, you know, here's America, we're still here, we still are great. And I just, what a, the only thing that I get pleasure in is she doesn't really have a job, but that's fine. Like, that's just my personal pleasure. But the cuts they're making are so targeted to things that make us better as a nation, that it's just a fend for yourself kind of thing that's happening,

which I think is not the picture America has of itself, or maybe they do now. Kerry Lake is a physical embodiment of AI right now, and that is she put herself out of business. I love that she said on a campaign trail as if it was a feature, not a bug, that I'm going to be the media's worst nightmare. Well, okay, she got herself fired. She's right. She's the worst thing that happened to media, including The Voice of America, and now she's

out of work. I'd insist. And she wanted to bring all her skills as a newscaster. She was on a local news station, Carrie. Sorry, I don't find you to be the top level media thinker of our generation. You know who's playing the long game right now? It's the golf, Al Jazeera or funding, you know,

quote unquote, Middle Eastern studies department slowly but surely across universities across America. You should do America. You should do that. They're getting rid of all these democracy organizations. There's a million democracy organizations. Do you think these, what a lot of people believe, including myself, these anti-Semitic protests

on campus just happened overnight? No, they took a lot of thoughtful long-term investing. Do you think that empathy towards whatever, different viewpoints out of the Gulf just happened overnight? Do you think that empathy towards whatever, you know, different viewpoints out of the Gulf just happened overnight? Al Jazeera, do you think that when my son on the way to sushi asked me, says, Dad, when did we take their land away? Do you think that happened overnight?

No. The Chinese are playing, the Chinese in the Gulf are playing the long game. And we used to think about this. We used to think about, okay, how can soft power slowly but surely get people to our viewpoint such that every decision, every action, every economic, every, we have 700 military bases in like 70 or 80 countries. Do you realize how many decisions and a view of our country?

And most of these people making these decisions have never been to America. No. So dumb. Your brand, your people's perception of you. I'm just not inclined to do business with a company from Afghanistan. I've never been there. I don't know that many Afghanis. It is an unfair snap decision.

But it's based on the impression I have the perceptions of their country. This is such a marketing opportunity, Mist. If somebody comes from New Zealand, I'm like, I like them, I'd like to hire them. Why do I like the New Zealand lamb? If they start rounding up Jews, I'm shoving Bitcoin up my ass and I'm heading to New Zealand and I'm going to spend more money there. All of these brand perceptions are so, they are more important than the actual,

in many ways, the actual activities. 100%. And we are pulling back on all of our brand building activities. And our polling is going to go down, Carrie Lake, but mostly because of you. Anyway, President Trump also visited the Justice Department, speaking of ruining something that had a very good reputation, to give an hour-long speech focused mostly on criticizing those who investigated him. What a tiny-minded person.

Presidents do not typically speak at the Justice Department for good reason. Here are some of the things Trump said. He proclaimed himself the chief law enforcement officer in our country, which usually is the attorney general. He also suggested it's illegal for networks to cover him and what he sees is an overly negative light. He said the classified documents case against him was bullshit. When the speech ended, YMCA played and he did his signature dance on stage.

Oh my God. It's like they're, how are we losing to this person? I, this is marketing. Give me a marketing thing here. Cause obviously this is all such nonsense. He shouldn't have been there. It does. This is a line we should never cross.

And he does it constantly back and forth. And again, in an ideal world, what should Democrats be doing in response to this? Yeah. Look, there is such a void here of Democratic leadership for someone just to stand up and say, you know, this is bullshit. More importantly, and I know this is gonna drive you crazy, I have literally, I'm about to be indoctrinated into the woke church.

I'm about to become an apostle, a cardinal. They are burning white smoke in the ballots because I am now doing a live podcast with my other side piece, the much, basically she's you but younger, which is what I like to do, what I'll do with my third and fourth wife. I am speaking at the 92nd Street Y

and all I can think about, all I can think about is when they introduce me standing up and screaming out, young man, there's no need to feel down, I said young man. When you're going there with Tarloff, you're doing a Tarloff event? Me and Jessica Tarloff were invited.

I literally have to pull fucking teeth. We have been offered 10 of these and you've turned them all down. You know that like at Aspen. Yeah, but I'm trying to impress the new wife. Honestly, literally, we're not doing France because you won't do it. We're not doing, oh my god. We're not doing France. When did we get invited to France?

We got invited to France. You're busy doing something else, an expensive speech. To Leweb or something like that? Something, whatever. Anytime I try to get one of these going, which people are desperate for, you say no and you say yes to her. I just don't. Unless there's hot people or a ton of Benjamins for daddy.

And it's for the 90 seconds. Why? It's not like anything really big. In France? No, not the France one would have been fun. We would have enjoyed ourselves. But no, the one in Aspen you want to, I'm just saying. Just saying.

Just saying. No, I got to pretend to be young and hip with the new wife. I cannot get you to take me out to dinner, Scott. There you go. Anyway, that will be very nice for you. I'm going to move on now. The Democrats, you have a huge ride. You could drive a truck through and you are not driving it. You're driving it into a wall, Chuck Schumer.

All right, Scott, let's go on a quick break. We come back. Southwest Airlines is no longer offering free bags. projects done. Out. Beige. On beige. On beige. In. Knowing what to do, when to do it, and who to hire. Start caring for your home with confidence. Download Thumbtack today. Hey, this is Peter Kafka, the host of Channels, a show about what happens when tech smashes into media. And this week I'm talking about Twitch. Not the thing my eye does when I don't get enough sleep, but the pioneering live streaming service that Amazon bought for a billion dollars back in 2014. Twitch is still a big deal in live streaming, but so are lots of other places.

So how is Twitch CEO Dan Clancy gonna deal with that competition? Why exactly do I wanna watch people talk live on the internet anyway? I asked Dan Clancy all about that and more on this week's channels from the Vox Media Podcast Network. Scott, we're back. Southwest Airlines will soon end its policy of allowing free check bags. Bags fly free has long been what Southwest is known for, along with having no assigned

seating, which the airline will also eliminate this year. Frequent flyers and credit card holders will still be allowed one free bag, but the move has been met with criticism online. Activist and Metro Elliott management has been increasing pressure on the airline to raise profits. Obviously, it's expensive to do this. Meanwhile, Spirit Airlines is fresh out of bankruptcy and the CEO said it's ready to take on competitors. We'll take advantage of the time. It takes Southwest to find its new footing with the new rules. Brand assessment. Isn't this what Southwest was actually a good version of a cheap airline, right? Look, until about 10 years ago,

Southwest Airlines had a greater market capitalization than the rest of the US industry combined. What Southwest was able to do was build an amazing brand around freedom. That was, we don't charge your owners cancellation fees, it's very flexible, you can get up and go. Even being located in the Southwest, we were all about low cost. They always had 737s to try and create operational efficiency.

They implemented a great culture that was sort of fun and quirky. And the idea was, if things aren't going well for you, you want to take a vacation, or quite frankly, you want to peace out and move to Vegas. Southwest is about freedom. It had this amazing brand. And when you look at an industry where it is near impossible to establish differentiation, think about

it. They're all flying to the same place. They're all flying the same goddamn equipment. They're all hiring effectively the same people. How do you maintain any sort of differentiation that creates an industry that is non-commoditized and results in shareholder value. And Southwest was able to do that. And one of the key components of their brand was, we don't rip you off or nickel and dime you by charging you for bags. And I see this, by the way, I think Elliott are some of the smartest people in investment disclosure.

I've worked with them. I like them. They've been very generous with me. I think this is the wrong move. I think this is straight trading off short-term profits in financial engineering to make a quick buck and then basically lose one of the few, one of the few precious, scarce forms of differentiation in an industry that has been totally commoditized.

And so then the question is, if you take away these few things that differentiate Southwest, what is their differentiation? Exactly. It just becomes a search on Expedia for who is the lowest price, who do I go to first? So I see this as a pure example

of short-term juicing of profits. The stock will probably go up. It will substantially increase their EBITDA, Elliott will sell their stake, and Southwest further melts into this giant amorphous bubble of all airlines with no differentiation. This again is another lesson. Branding is like working out. The next day it hurts. It sucks. It requires discipline. But if you're disciplined about it and willing to make the consistent investments and working out, everything gets a little bit

easier. You get a little bit stronger. It's easier to go up the stairs. People want to hang out with you. You're less likely to have bouts of depression. Brand building, and this is brand building, the free bags is working out every day. And what they've decided to do is like, I'm done. I want the profits. I think this is I'm done. I want the profits. I think this is a bad move. I think this is trading off brand equity for a short term

hit in EBITDA. Yep. I would agree with you. I think you're correct on all these things. I don't know why I would take, I used to take Southwest a lot because of these things. It was always cheaper. It was always more flexible.

Now I'm like, well, if I have to pay, I might as well have the things I like and then collect. I don't know if you know this, Scott, I'm a global services on United now. I am finally. I don't even know what that means. The top tier, they have a secret room. That's a sign that your relationships are struggling

and your life sucks. I know, but I'm still very happy. I'm very happy. I have to say, I like the separate entrances. Anyway. They have separate entrances? Yeah, they do. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Separate little rooms. They give you little food. You walk in, you go through security. There's a separate security entrance too. It's not even the special TSA, whatever clear line. It's an even better line. It's really nice.

I have to say I like it. I just can't wait till I'm single again and I dress up for Halloween. I'm going to dress up as Southwest Airlines and fuck a bunch of people. Anyway, I don't fly Southwest anymore. I used to fly a lot and that bag was an attraction. It was different. It was the cheap airline that was decent, if that makes a sense.

Like if I had all the kids at once and it was just so ridiculously, it was always the cheap airline that you always had a good experience on, if that makes sense, that you always, like it was, you felt, it didn't make you feel like spirit, which always made you feel like they're going to stick you in a box and shove you in, or Russian air or something like that. And you're right, it's a short-term solution to it. The airline industry is a terrible industry for investors because about 30 years ago, the Gulf, who are very smart and have a tremendous amount of capital, said, we need a coming out party. And instead of having the Olympics, they built and overfunded the world's best airlines in the world because they did the math.

And they said, people's brand impression of you is based on, first and foremost, the airline that brought you there and back and to the airports. And so Singapore and then UAE basically said, the best investment we could make as a halo for our entire nation would be to build these extraordinary airlines. And essentially Singapore and then Emirates Airlines

and then Qatar built the, by far, the best airlines in the world. And when you buy a ticket on Emirates Airlines, if Qatar built the, by far, the best airlines in the world. And when you buy a ticket on Emirates Airlines, if you're spending a thousand bucks, you're getting $1,400 in service. And the American Airlines and every other long haul airline in the world just can't compete. They can't afford to compete with a company with an airline that is offering, you know- Did you see the ads for Penelope Cruz on the Emirates,

the premium economy seat that looks like a beautiful seat? It's these ads that are on and she looks at you. I know, you had me at Penelope Cruz. She goes, premium economy. And it's like such a good ad. Like, let me just say, I was like, first of all, I went Penelope Cruz. And secondly, I went, that's a fucking nice seat there

in premium economy. I would fly on that. The two things worked, Penelope Cruz and the seat. Go ahead, sorry. The airlines, the domestic carriers across the economies that demand that the airlines not be subsidized by the government, which you can argue for, just can't compete with Singapore,

Emirates and Qatar Airlines. Domestically, I think, I want to say of the big three, Delta does the best job. By far, the best operator in the domestic market is JetBlue Mint, seats two, aisles two and four, where you get your own pod. I obviously fly a lot. But everything else is a distant second to the Gulf airlines

and quite frankly, to JetBlue domestically. It is a shitty airline. Consum airlines and quite frankly to JetBlue domestically. It is a shitty airline. Consumers have said that they will they will endure absolute atrocious service just to get from point A to point B less expensively. That industry is an example of just I think just this last year airlines since kind of the inception of commercial aviation are finally starting an aggregate to turn a profit. It is as Warren Buffett,ett your hero said if we could if we had a time machine We would go back and murder the Wright brothers. It has been a terrible Place to invest I've been flying I've been molesting the earth for the last 30 years

I can break down almost every airline good and bad worst airline in Europe KLM by the way There's just such a range of good to bad. By the way, the best new first class is Lufthansa's first class and also the apartment, the apartment from Singapore Airlines. But anyways, I think a lot about flying. I love, I do like flying. Just a quick shout out.

Sure. To all the single ladies out there, I am the Southwest Airlines of Men. Baggage is free, My baggage is free. Oh no. A lot of baggage. This is literally like four bad jokes. What is happening?

Daddy's bringing erectile dysfunction, daddy is bringing self-hate, daddy is bringing a little bit of alcohol abuse. Okay. All right. One more quick break and we'll be back for wins and fails. Obviously, fails are four penis jokes in a row. You know that feeling when you find the perfect song? Imagine that. But for your next meal at Tim's,

whether you're craving something meaty, cheesy or just straight up satisfying, make a meal of it with Tim's new three meat hat trick flatbread pizza loaded with pepperoni, bacon, and sausage crumble. Pair it with our new garlic bread and a refreshing peach lemonade quencher for a meal that just hits. Order on the Tim's app today at participating restaurants in Canada for a limited time. It's time for Tim's. Okay, Scott, let's hear some wins and fails. I shall go first.

I shall go first. Let me say a win. I know you're with them this weekend, but Severance is so fucking good. Ben Stiller. Yeah, it's really good. I love you, Ben Stiller. Let me just say, both Amanda and I, it's so incredibly dense, but also utterly fascinating. You think about it all week.

It is one of those shows. I got to say, I like a lot. I love The Sopranos. I like The Bear. This one has me thinking and thinking and thinking about all kinds of issues around identity, everything else, but it's also really gripping at the same time and entertaining. People love it. Let me just say, I always can say, oh, that's going to happen next.

Like when I watch White Lotus, as much as I like it, I get, I know exactly what's going to happen essentially. I don't know what's going to happen in this fucking thing. And I, they're so inventive. I have to say, Patricia Arquette, they're all good on this show. There's not a person that's not good. The guy who plays Mr. Milchek, he's amazing. But I love this show and Ben, kudos. And it's like doing incredibly well for Apple. It's like one of the like it's growing. The audience is growing week to week. And it's

not one of those small audiences that is like everyone's talking about. It's a big audience for Apple. It's making a ton of money. Kudos, kudos, kudos. These are people at the top of their game. I have to say, I think about it all the time. That is my win. My fail, well, obviously Chuck Schumer because, by the way, his book tour events were postponed after the backlash. He has a new book out called Anti-Semitism in America, a warning that's been postponed for security reasons apparently. But that's not my loss.

I heard the original title, Where Are My Testicles that they changed. Where Are My Test. But that's not my loss. I heard the original title, Where Are My Testicles? That they changed. Where Are My Testicles? That's right, yeah. I would say this ridiculous, Trump is always doing a ridiculous thing

and a distracting thing. But his statement this weekend about Biden's pardons are void in bank because of the auto pen. There's no power to undo a pardon in the Constitution or case law. If he wants to do all his stupid pardons, I'm not a fan of the auto pen. There's no power to undo a pardon in the Constitution or case law. If he wants to do all his stupid pardons, I'm not a fan of the pardon system by presidents in any way whatsoever. I think they should get three and that's it and they can't get paid for it. But get your, just like stop with this fucking ridiculousness. You can't, he's, and the way

he does it, he goes, uh, hereby declared in capital letters, void vacant and no further force than effect because they were done by the auto pen. Fuck you. Like honestly, like this was even for him was a ridiculous, stupid thing to do and he has a list of stupid things. So like, look, if we're going to keep these dumb pardons, just stop acting like this. This is what occupies your brain, like good maybe I suppose. So I was really irritated by

that for some reason. Anyway, that's my positive and negative. Severance, fantasticness, Trump as usual, distraction, distraction, distraction, and it's working, unfortunately. We share the same fail. There's always a good excuse for failure. And the Democratic Party has a total lack of leadership. I would like to see- Who do you like in the Democrats? Can I ask you to pick someone? Chris Murphy is being kind of spicy, AOC. I think he's been fantastic.

I think I'm a huge fan of obviously Senators Bennett and Warner. I think AOC, I appreciate, I think Representative Crockett. Is that? Crockett, Jasmine Crockett. I mean, at least they're getting out there and they're saying shit. My favorites are, I really like Representative Torres. I just love that he comes out with moderate policies and the far left just does not have to deal with the intersectionality of

a black Latino gay man saying these moderate things. I just love that he's driving everyone crazy. Governor Wes Moore, who in a State of the Union address, said his administration was going to focus on the struggles of young men. I thought that was a very brave thing to do in a blue state. He's the one the Republicans are nervous about, I can tell you. What I would say is anyone who's willing to come out right now and say the Democratic Party lacks leadership and take an aggressive stand against this slide into autocracy and

I'm I will give money to right now for your campaign. I just we are desperate for someone to go a little bit gangster and have a strong voice here. I think this is we are literally the party of eunuchs right now. Eunuchs. It's a word you don't use very often. I like that word. That's my favorite character in Game of Thrones is the eunuch. Is that my favorite character? That's a tough one.

I like the Prince of Dorne. A bisexual who drinks a lot and kills people. That guy's so fucking hot. By the way, just so you know, people kept asking me why I was dancing around on stage with my shirt off at South by Southwest. Yeah. What they don't realize is that we had to bargain for our South by Southwest spot and they said,

okay, but if we come to you and ask you for a favor, you have to accept. I said yes. Before us, I don't know if you know this, this is true story, it was the last of us cast. And Pedro Pascal went on stage and all the women were literally going fucking crazy and they said, okay Scott, we need you to go out there and cool down the women. Okay, that's good.

That's good. I love him. I have a hot friend. Who doesn't love that guy? Who doesn't love that guy? Anyways, where the fuck were we? Oh, you're winning fail. Oh, your fail fail is the Democrats. Like we have got to find our footing here. There is a, the bad news is our leadership brightens up a room by leaving it. They are literally, they're just so ineffective. They've just acquiesced. They've basically given now the Republicans carte blanche

to do whatever they want. And it's just so incredibly discouraging. The good news is we have a fantastic bench. And what I would say to this bench is command the space you occupy, get out there, be fearless, push back on this. What's going on here, there's an enormous void push back on this, what's going on here, there's an enormous void for the new generation of democratic leadership to step into. So my fail is, Senator Schumer, I think it is time for you to move on. I think you are just not up to the job, quite frankly.

My win is, I think Europe is a union again. It's a $19 trillion economy. They are figuring out that with the resolve in the capital, the latter of which they have in spades, the former of which we have to decide in 1939 or 1940, my mother was sleeping and her family were sleeping in tube stations and passing out gas masks in the shape of Disney characters.

The real fulcrum here is that to be fair, Russia has shown tremendous resolve. Russia is willing to send 600 young men to their death by quite frankly offering money to these families and small villages in Russia. But you got to give it, I mean, you got to acknowledge the core competence of Russia is resolved and the willingness to sacrifice.

The EU nations are 20 trillion trillion or 19 trillion dollar economy. Russia is an economy that's two trillion, that's smaller than Canada. They have the capital. They have better weapons. They have better IP. Their AI and drone technology will be far superior. The question is, do they have the resolve? If they do, then let Trump bluster about pretending he gets to decide the terms of this surrender. He doesn't.

If Europe wants to decide to come up and fill the void of leadership and capital and resolve that the US has abdicated from, they can absolutely as they did in 1939, push back against a murderous autocrat. And I think we're beginning to see signs of it. I think these two meetings, one in England, one in Brussels are showing that Stammer, Holtz and Macron are filling that void. So I'm hopeful.

My win is that the European Union is going to begin to push back and fill the void of American leadership. I also believe, and I've said this before, it could inspire a dramatic upward spiral in the economy through the technology spillover and the stimulus of increased military spending and greater coordination and cutting the red tape. And we're already seeing that in the stock market.

Yeah, can I put something out there? So they interviewed, political interviewed Chris LaCivita, who was one of the campaign managers of Donald Trump. And he was saying how stupid Europeans are. I'd love you to answer this. He goes, we basically subsidized Europe for the last 50 years, 60 years of post-World War II. And of course we did the rebuilding.

We've done all those things. We were able to create these social paradises where the government paid for everything they didn't have to pay for was their national defense. You know, at some point in time, the gravy trains got to end. Well, the gravy trains ending now, the Cold War's over, the balance of power shifts, all these things have changed. Politicians in Europe don't want to change.

They sure don't want to change at the pace being forced on them to change how they go about spending. So it's going to create a new level of angst. And then he said, at the same time, they're arrogant as hell, they've spent time in Europe and the last couple of years, they still don't get it. They don't understand there's a new sheriff in town and he's a very, very set ways and pins in about America.

First means we're first, you're second. I think this guy's a fucking idiot. Like he doesn't see what's actually, we're actually gonna make them stronger by this, correct? That's what you argue. Well, of course I spent too much time in these private members clubs in New York and I went to Casa Cipriani and I went with some friends

and we had some drinks and some carpaccio, lovely little pasta dinner, like nice in the corner. And the bill was 740 bucks. And I know the general manager and I came over and I said, who is here, it's all young people. And I said, who are these young kids who can afford to spend 700 bucks on drinks and a light dinner?

And he said, no one here is paying. And that is the young women here, someone else is paying for them. Do you think that sex is fine? It's also true. And the men, the young men, it's their parents' credit card. They're all trust fund kids.

And this is an interesting thing. They said they're trust fund kids from New Jersey. I know a lot of trust fund kids. And to a certain extent, Europe has been a little bit of the negative externalities of being a trust fund kid, and that it is dependent upon the military and to a lesser extent, the economic umbrella of the US. And quite frankly, they have become indulgent and spoiled.

And that is a harsh statement and it is true and what Europe realizes now is that they're smart, they can work hard, they have incredible skills, IP, artisanship, they literally are the home of the Renaissance, they are the home of like of great philosophers. If they get their shit together, they cut the regulation and they show some of the resolve, some of the grit and some of the innovation that America and China has filled the void. If you look at the rise of China,

it hasn't come at the expense of the US. The US still has the same GDP growth. The US still has the same number of big companies of unicorns. Who it's come at the expense of is Europe. And I think a lot of this is that Europe needs to finally say, okay, we're going to become a union. I believe this in some ways might be backs it and might take England back into the European

Union and they need to coordinate, lower the bureaucracy, lower the lack of, or what I would say, the administrative state. They need to really increase their substantial spending and they need to say, really increase their substantial spending. And they need to say, if need be, we're going to put boots on the ground. And yeah, fine, Trump, wave your arms, be an ass clown. Fine. We're the ones that are going to decide. We're going to back Ukraine.

We have seen what happens when you let a murderous autocrat run unchecked. We're not down for this anymore. We'd love your help. If it's there, great. If it's not, we're going to for this anymore. We'd love your help if it's there, great. If it's not, we're gonna count on it. Keep in mind that the Europeans substantially push back, push back viciously and victoriously on a murderous autocrat for two years before the Americans wade into the war in 1930.

You know, there were two long years of the greatest, one of the greatest industrial war machines ever, the Third Reich, was invading a Europe that had stopped spending and stopped preparing and stopped coordinating. That's where we are now. Europe can absolutely push back on Russia. Okay. Crystal Savita, you're an idiot. You're the arrogant prick. Anyway, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business tech or whatever is on your mind. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question

for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. Elsewhere in the Kara and Scott universe, I talked to Ezra Klein this week with On with Kara Swisher. Let's listen to a clip. There is an Orwellian-ness to this, but efficiency needs a goal, right? I mean, if you want a government that can be more efficiently taken over

by Elon Musk's companies, and yeah, Doge is doing great. If you want a government that can be more efficiently taken over by Elon Musk's companies, then yeah, Doge is doing great. If you want a government that can more efficiently do things in service of the public and execute big public projects, then like, no, it's not doing great. Goals here really matter. And what they're doing is trying to build something that is more open to high levels of crony capitalism, right? It's a sort of an oligarchic takeover. I just want to fight that.

I thought it was good. His book is really interesting. It's about the government, the Democrats getting a set of balls essentially. And I think it's an interesting book. I know you've interviewed him too. Okay, that's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot.

And be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel, which is doing very well. Do you think Ezra Klein has spoken of the 92nd one? Yes YouTube channel, which is doing very well. We're getting- Do you think Ezra Klein has spoken of the 90 second one? Yes, many times. He's very popular. He's like the media sexy guy now, and you have to really compete.

You need to compete, okay? Anyway, we'll be back on Friday, by the way. Scott, do not sing YMCA and read us out. Today's show is produced by Lera Neiman, Taylor Griffin, Corinne Ruff, and Kate Gallagher. Who are all these new people and who's paying for them? Ernie Endertot engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burroughs, Amiya Severio, and Dan Chulon.

Nishak Kroas, Vox Media's executive producer of audio. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com slash pod. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business.

Who's gonna decide not to surrender to a murderous autocrat? Two words, first E, second U.