Pivot - DOJ/Google showdown, RIP Quibi, and a listener mail question on Airbnb IPO

Episode Date: October 23, 2020

Kara and Scott talk about the Department of Justice filing an antitrust lawsuit against Google and their search advertising monopoly behavior. They also discuss the shutdown of Quibi – we hardly knew ye... In listener mail, we get a question about Airbnb offering hosts shares in their IPO. Kara's prediction is that Amy Coney Barrett will be a dangerous Supreme Court Justice. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Support for Pivot comes from Virgin Atlantic. Too many of us are so focused on getting to our destination that we forgot to embrace the journey. Well, when you fly Virgin Atlantic, that memorable trip begins right from the moment you check in. On board, you'll find everything you need to relax, recharge, or carry on working. Buy flat, private suites, fast Wi-Fi,

hours of entertainment, delicious dining, and warm, welcoming service that's designed around you. Check out virginatlantic.com for your next trip to London and beyond and see for yourself how traveling for business can always be a pleasure. Hi, everyone. Get started at HubSpot.com slash marketers. Go tuck yourself. It just goes on and on and on. This is a story. Don't tuck with me. This is a story. This is so Scott Galloway. We should have music. What would be the music? I'm not sure I like that. A few people have called me and said that.

But you know what? Really, this is a story that keeps growing. Oh, my God. Really? Did you just say that? Listen, first of all, let's fill the people in on why. Once again, we're talking about the nether regions of men. You know what?

I have a friend who literally saw the second person. Who has nether regions? Jeff Toobin. No, they have a region. I had a friend, it's a woman, who had a story, who saw it, heard it. And then there's a second one, and all she texted me was men. That's all she texted me. Okay, apropos of nothing, how do you think we should be dealing with workplace sexual harassment happening on Zoom? New Yorker writer and CNN analyst Jeffrey Toobin was caught exposing himself in a Zoom meeting. And then, of course, the internet exploded when we saw a video of Rudy Giuliani, America's mayor, lying on a bed in a scene from the new Borat movie coming out.

He was impersonating a luge driver with his hand on the stick. with his hand on the stick. Oh, I don't even know. What do you think, Scott? Here you go. This is your, like, there's two. If third will make it, you know. First off, I'm not sure I appreciate that somehow you acknowledge this. I'm just wondering about tucking.

This is literally the only thing you've ever acknowledged I have domain expertise in. You're master of the domain. Yes, you are. Oh, my God, you brought up the Seinfeld joke unexpectedly. I don't want to say I'm qualified for this, but you just knew, first off, okay, men, right? Your comment was actually quite insightful because when you heard about this, you just knew it was a dude, right? Well, hello. You just knew it was a dude.

Which one? Tumid. Well, yes, right? Yeah, okay. And it's funny you say that you use the word sexual harassment when it comes to Jeffrey Toobin. I'm like, it might be workplace indecency. I'm not sure it's sexual harassment. Yeah.

It's definitely unfortunate for those who haven't watched. My first kind of notion was, and I was wondering if I was struck by that term, empathy, where I'm providing more sympathy to men than they deserve. Yeah. Which, by the way, is a term I want to give correct attribution to Kate Mann. Okay. Anyways, I think it's a neat term, empathy. But first off, I immediately thought, okay, what is the New Yorker doing? If a webcam model, they constantly defend sex workers, but if a webcam model broke out a New Yorker, to me that's more like sexual workplace obscenity.

But the notion that— It's like someone in their office getting caught doing that, but accepted everybody. Here's what it is at the end of the day. We have a sudden and unexpected collision of work and home that we weren't expecting. And here's the thing, okay? As far as I know, as far as I know, the majority of men masturbate. As far as I know, the majority of men who masturbate do it to some sort of visual aid. And the majority of men who masturbate with a visual aid use a computer or some sort of device.

And unfortunately, all of those things have collided at a velocity we weren't expecting with work. And I just, were people traumatized? I feel like he's played a pretty big price for this. I'm not talking about the price here, but I'm talking about like what this is like, it's just a fast, it's like, I'm amazed it didn't happen. I'm sure it has happened. How did it take so long? You had the ultimate line here, there by the grace of Zoom go we. I thought that was perfect. He is, I don't know, the Christopher Columbus of workplace masturbation. I don't know what you want to call it.

That's fine, too. He has broken new ground. As a matter of fact, I heard he's up for a Pulitzer. I've heard he's up for a Pulitzer. Oh, my God. I could do this all morning. No, let me just say, you say, I can't believe you think it's me. And then you have 90 jokes. Let me just say, let me just give that, point that out to people. It's like,

how could you think I would know anything about this? Pull it, sir. Get it. Come on. You have to hand it to him. Master of his domain. I think you're being heavy handed. I think you're being heavy handed. How long do you want to go? I can do this all morning. I don't want your like faux bullshit about the fact that you are not fully baked on this topic, let me just say. Fully baked. Fully baked. You've got to have your hobbies, Kara. You've got to have your hobbies.

I get that. Now, Giuliani is another situation. Well, hold on. Again, caught on video. Don't just have me make a— A different situation. Hold on. Hold on.

We need to slow this down a little bit. We need to slow roll this. What is your view on the tubing incident? All right, the tubing. I think it creates a new verb that I'm enjoying. Right, right. Here's the deal. It's embarrassment.

It's hard to recover from these kind of embarrassments. It's like people being caught with their pants. It's happened in lots of analog ways, I think. People being caught having sex in the work bathroom or whatever it's just that it creates it's a zoom situation with all your colleagues it creates a whole different it's a whole different level of a workplace indecency embarrassment which has happened like look it just has I mean if you live work at a newspaper you've heard stories of people having sex in the bathroom, this and that, whatever. You know, everybody's got these things going.

It's not great. I'm not sure how you return to, say, the airwaves after this one. You know, Hugh Grant certainly did. Others did. You know what I mean? Like when he had that whole thing with the prostitutes and stuff like that. So people return. It's just now there's just that.

It's just, you know, it's unfortunate. What do you think the appropriate response for CNN in New York is? I think for the other workers, it was the right to suspend him for a little while. Yeah, probably. It's probably, you know, it was, he shouldn't have been doing it during a workplace interaction. It was bad judgment, which is what he said. It was a war. He was in the middle. If like right now you started matching, I would have a problem with that. Like, that it was bad judgment, which is what he said. He was in the middle.

If, like, right now you started matching, I would have a problem with that. It's like bad judgment. Even I'm a bit freaked out by that. I know, exactly. Think about it. So think about it. That's all I'm saying. So for everyone involved, it's not great.

Let's move to the Giuliani thing. It's a really interesting—first of all, the Spirat movie looks fantastic. This is Sacha Baron Cohen, who's just killing it on every aspect. And he's the one that dressed up in a Trump costume at one of the conservative events. And I think it was CPAC. And then he's got Giuliani. He always manages to catch someone. He's actually caught Trump and sort of zinged them.

And I love this kind of pranking, I do. But this one seems really icky and menacing, actually. And of course, Giuliani is saying he was lying down on a bedroom with a young girl after being invited there after a flattering interview to tuck in his shirt because the

lavalier was taken out. I don't even understand that. I guess it went down his front shirt and he was talking that's his excuse i don't know i just feel like you don't understand because it's bullshit it's bullshit you don't lie down to talk i have been in lavalier incidents with many people and they do not i've not had one of them lie down and i've been in lavaliers with people in hotel rooms we're doingings, and no one has ever done that in the history of my lavalier. So it's weird.

It was weird, and I think he was touching himself. That's what I think he was doing. But I don't know. Who knows? If he says that's what he says. And so I don't know if it'll matter because he's sort of been on the downward slide of weird you know, America's mayor to this. And, you know, the fact, I think the problem is, is he's such a close advisor to President Trump that you're sort of, if you work for, speaking of workplace, President Trump to have this, you know,

randy old goat running around, you know, doing weird things. And I think the one thing people pointed out is it was so easy for this guy to get him. Like, Russians, the Russian intelligence must be like, this is like the easiest mark in town. And so that's the area that I'm like, wow, it's absolutely true. This guy is like a walking, talking, you know, useful idiot, essentially. I mean, I had a, I'm curious if you went through the same kind of emotional role that I went through. The first thing was, I can't stand Rudy Giuliani, and I really like Sasha Baron Cohen,

so I immediately thought it was great and funny and couldn't wait to see it. And then my next emotion was, you know, when you start, this was entrapment. This was leading someone to a room under false pretense with hidden cameras, and it's a 70-plus-year-old man. Yeah. And leading him to a place that was very humiliating and embarrassing, and he took the bait. And I think, you know, the big loser here is America. When we start doing that to each other for profit, despite how despicable person on the other end is, he was the mayor of the largest city in America. It just makes us look terrible.

It makes us look terrible. And it was for profit at someone else's expense. And even if you don't like that person, it does reveal something I think uncomfortable and unhealthy about our society. I get that, except this is a guy who's spent the last few weeks doing the same thing. Then my next emotion, my next emotion is that this is a guy who is trying to entrap the children of his political enemies and is spending time overseas in Eastern Europe. And if he is this dumb and naive to what is an age-old method of the KGB, which is the honeypot, where you just use a young woman

to put you in a compromising position, he really doesn't have the faculties or the skills or the discipline or the judgment to be in any way working anywhere near the White House. And it reflects incredibly poorly on him. And again, nobody, the White House, greatness it reflects incredibly poorly on him. And again, nobody, the White House, greatness is in the agency of others, and idiocy and incompetence is in the agency of others. Look at who this White House surrounds himself with. But the whole thing, it started for me, it started

like funny brat, I got to see that, oh, good for them, I can't stand Mayor Giuliani. And then the more I thought about it, I thought, you know, this just isn't good for America. I can't stand Mayor Giuliani. And then the more I thought about it, I thought, you know, this just isn't good for America. There's just something very unsettling about this. Rudy Giuliani has been good for America for a long time. I agree. I don't know. I feel like in this case, especially what he's been doing the past week, which I, you know,

whatever is happening with his hard drive and trying to expose pictures of a guy who has a drug addiction with his pictures, just, I'm sorry. Couldn't happen to a nicer guy. has a drug addiction with his pictures. Yeah, couldn't happen to a nicer guy. Let me just say, tuck him. Tuck him. Couldn't happen to a nicer guy.

It's just too much what he's been doing. And I get that. I get you're right. It's bad for Americans. It's stupid. But this is, again, an age-old thing, a honeypot thing. And he has too close proximity to the President of the United States for this to be just okay, and feeling bad for him. He should be never allowed

in the White House. I feel bad for him. I feel bad for America, and I worry that this is going to become standard practice for different movies and different versions of jackass films. Well, Burrard's done it before. He did it with, if you remember. If they start moving down the food chain and move to 70-plus-year-old elected representatives everywhere and start pulling shit like this, I don't know.

I just don't know if that's healthy. The fact that they don't know it's Barack, that to me is just amazing. That's amazing. Who doesn't recognize them? I know. When he was in the house with all those people, I was sort of like, God, do you have any? What is your information diet? This guy is so ridiculous.

Anyway. And by the way, that's you know, this guy is so ridiculous. Anyway. And by the way, that's not the most disturbing thing about the movie. It's supposed to be the most disturbing thing about the movie. It's just how ridiculously fucking racist our nation still is. Yes, that is. That's why I think he is a real, he's. His stock's going, you want to talk about, we said, and by the way, who was our loser on Monday or Tuesday? Who was our loser?

Who? Who was it? Our loser. Our loser. You don't, you're really not investing in this relationship. I don't remember. I'm sorry. I didn't want to be confused. My loss. My loss.

I said that no political figure had fallen further faster than Rudy Giuliani. Giuliani. You did. And this happened the next day. He did. I know. Let's find out who it was. And by the way, I think a person's stock who's increased more than almost anybody is Sasha

Barron Cohen. He's gone from kind of. He's already been wise on issues around big tech companies, which brings us to our big story. Yeah, good segue. The Department of Justice filed an antitrust lawsuit against Google, which is a long time in coming. A 57-page filing says the company has violated

a series of federal laws to protect their monopoly on search and advertising. They accuse Google of locking up deals with giant partners like Apple, which has been out in the open for a very long time, making it possible for other companies to compete. As a reminder, Google has about 80% market share in this space. The DOJ in the United States, that's elsewhere, it's higher. The DOJ is joined by 11 states' attorneys generals. There's issues around this, which we'll talk about. Senator Elizabeth Warren, who has been very vocal about the breakup of big tech,

said in a tweet that the DOJ should have gone even further in their lawsuit. I actually recall him saying the same about other tech companies, too. But it's a start. So, Scott, any surprises? What do you think? They get kudos for the narrowness of it, because the narrowness increases the likelihood that the punch will land. It's interesting.

They're starting around. It definitely has echoes of the DOJ case against Microsoft 20 years ago, and that is they're kind of going after their bundling. And that is Microsoft used to bundle Explorer and Office with computer hardware manufacturers and demand that that was bundled onto every Dell computer or what have you. computer hardware manufacturers and demand that that was bundled onto every Dell computer or what have you. And Google has been paying people a lot of money, whether it's Apple or even like Mozilla. Mozilla could get big time hurt by this. Mozilla gets about $450 million by making Google the default search engine. And their view is making it the default search engine everywhere has given them a market share and the ability to pay more than maybe the economic terms.

So why would Google pay Apple $5 or $6 billion a year to be the default search engine, even when that may not even economically make sense for Google? It creates so much market share and so much momentum that nobody ever has the economic incentive

or an economic opening to create a competitive product. Just so you're aware, there are other choices, but they are the default. I think Yahoo is there, MSN might be there. I haven't even looked in years. But they are essentially the default. And of course, you have talked about Apple

doing its own search engine, which would, of course, also bring possible antitrust actions. So, it's a really difficult thing because some of these businesses like search and advertising do coalesce around one or two people, companies, excuse me, not people. And so, you know, it is people.

It is the same thing. It is people, you're right. They're controlling shareholders in both those cases. Yeah, exactly. But this idea of how we get to some sort of innovation in this area is difficult to think about. Like, what are the reliefs here? What are the remedies? It's hard to think of remedies.

The things they could do not be the default. Who gets to be the default? Who gets to pick and choose winners here? The government? You know, it's kind of an interesting problem of what the remedies would be. So I think that's one thing. Two, I wrote a column in the Times talking about that this is, you know, this had been going on, you know, the FTC back in 2013 and before that. The staff of the Federal Trade Commission recommended this, this exact thing, when it was less powerful. When it was not, did not have 80%, but had a very large percent of the market. And the FTC commissioners rejected it, rejected doing this and taking any action and asked Google to make some, you know, cosmetic changes really around the edges. And here we are, you know, 10 years later. So that's one,

is that the fact that this has taken so long for the company that you would have gone for first, which was Google. But it also sort of begs the question of where is Facebook in this advertising loss? Because Facebook is the other company that has the, you know, Google point right at Facebook. If they're not going after Facebook, that's one thing. Two, there's other, many other things that need to be done at the same time. And it would be nice if this was coordinated in some fashion, because it's not one company like Microsoft, when it was very easy to think of Microsoft as the Darth Vader of all this. when it was very easy to think of Microsoft as the Darth Vader of all this. This is systemic.

This is a systemic problem that this government is not coordinating on across the very many remedies they have. And then the other thing that really did strike me was that they didn't include all the states, which I thought, you know, in the Microsoft trial, there were 20 states involved. And the states they picked were very Trump-friendly states. And so that's my worry, is that it's not going to be coordinated across states, across government stuff. And it's because Bill Barr, credit to Bill Barr for finally getting this through, a lot of his prosecutors didn't want to go yet, which, you know, people can be too cautious. So, I worry about the whole thing not being enough and being a slap on the wrist, and then everybody moves on to the same exact situation. Well, that's the fear. The fear is that, in exchange, that an October surprise was more

important than a legitimate, you know, high tensile strength case. But it's narrow. It's 14 states, but all this, actually, it can expand. The states can take up their own issues around anti-competitive practice and focus on, you know, the ad market where Google is anti-competitive, maps where Google is anti-competitive. It doesn't mean they're not going to go there. They're about to start. One of the greatest tools or weapons that the federal government has is discovery.

They can begin now asking for documents, and they can go where this takes them. But I think this is actually— I think Google's been preparing for this for decades. Oh, you're probably right. So they gave them so much. Yeah, I know you're right, actually. They are so ready for this. And I bet there aren't that.

Google's been very careful for a long—they've been knowing this is coming for a long, long time. And I know inside that they really do, are very careful what they say inside of the company, what they send to each other, what they put in notes. And so I think it's going to be very difficult. And then the issue is who's going to be the search competitor? Who? Duck, duck, go, who? The search competitor should be a recently spun youtube that overnight responsible for its own share price launches its own search engine i think it's far

too late i think it's one of the things that i mean i had an tim woo and i argued on it but then jameel jaffer came onto my side which is interesting because this it what to do is i think the problem with what to do is that it finally it's's good that they finally did it, but is it too late? And what is the remedy? And that's going to be a really interesting question. And I think it'll be interesting if Biden wins if this continues in this fashion or if they shift it, whoever the attorney general is, shifts it around. Because actually, no matter who wins, it looks like Bill Barr is not going to be there because he wouldn't prosecute Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden. The same thing last night with this weird announcement by, I got to say, the DNI, whatever, the National Security Advisor to President Trump, what's his name, Ratcliffe, really is a political hack.

And he's like making, like Iran was trying to hurt President Trump. These countries, and then the poor FBI director had to just sit there like, why are we making this ridiculous, politically motivated announcement? These countries are hurting our country in order to create distrust around the election. And are they just magnifying it?

And of course he focused on Trump, like, oh, they're trying to get Trump. I'm like the whole, most of it has been aimed at Democrats, Hillary Clinton, et cetera. It was politicized, but they did say your vote counts. And I mean, a lot of this, they were hoping, Trump has been hoping for the same sort of October surprise that James Comey, the former FBI director, handed him. And that is James Comey did it for different reasons. I don't think he's corrupt. I think he's just such a radical narcissist that he had some vision of him being so impartial that the cameras would love him if he decided to release this memo. And Trump was

hoping for the same sort of October surprise. And the best he got was them to say, okay, there is interference. But the, I forget the individual's name – did say – Ray, who did say, look, your vote counts. It's just the whole thing. Anytime you deal with these individuals, you feel sorry for them because they're trying to do their job. And the only way they can do their job is to maintain their job, which means giving up all integrity and an oath of fidelity. And the whole thing just makes you want to shower. Well, except Chris Wright said nothing. Ideally, it makes you want to shower. Well, except Chris Raich said nothing. Ideally, it makes you want to vote.

And that's the good news. Over 40 million people have voted. More people in Texas have already voted than voted for Trump in 2016. So hopefully this is just another point of motivation for people. We'll see. I found it different. Chris Raich tried to say almost nothing because he was correctly saying we're trying to protect elections. John Ratcliffe, literally, over the past two, three weeks, over the past weeks, he's the director of national intelligence, really is a hack.

He's a political hack who, it is astonishing how much he's trying to use this for Trump's own names. And, you know, you contrast that there's some other people in the administration who, the guy who's the head of national security is going around the country to swing states now, like talking about these issues. All right. It's just enough. It's enough with the politicization of things that shouldn't be politicized. And you're right. Voting is the only way out of here. But we'll see what happens with the antitrust. Where do you, give me one, what do you think is going to happen with this antitrust situation if Biden gets in? Oh, Biden will pick it up. This is narrow enough where they can take the ball

and even if they don't like the ball, they'll dust it off and run with it. And it might go, you know, this is a long time coming. I think they're smart not to try and have this big grand bargain. I think they'll find stuff in discovery that'll help shape the next day. It's coming against Facebook.

Google is probably the right place to start. Who's next? It is the right place to start. It'll probably be Facebook next. Yeah. It'll probably be Facebook. Because there's a lot of consumer sentiment to support or ill will towards Facebook to support. And they have two-thirds of social.

It just makes, I think that's the next place. Yeah, probably through the FTC. Yeah. I think funding of the FTC would be the thing I would like to see next. Well, you know, one of the most exciting strategies for unlocking growth, and you always like to think about revenue upside, is to go industry by industry and oxygenate those industries. And not only that, to look at antitrust not as a punishment, but as a reward. Well done, gentlemen. Which we're trying to sell. And when I am head of the internet, I will try to sell that as you as my deputy.

General consulate of the internet. Let me say, you would be my deputy, and then you would have a Zoom problem, and I'd have to fire you spectacularly. It's going to be great. That's not my brand. That's not my brand. Oh, now you don't want to work for the federal government, Scott? The feds? Yeah. That's not my brand. That's not my brand. You don't want to work for the federal government, Scott? The feds?

Yeah. That's not your brand. Just the facts, man. Just the facts. All right. Scott, let's go to a quick break. When we're back, we'll talk about the fall of Quibi and a listener mail question. Fox Creative.

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The Capital Ideas Podcast now features a series hosted by Capital Group CEO Mike Gitlin. Through the words and experiences of investment professionals, you'll discover what differentiates their investment approach, what learnings have shifted their career trajectories, differentiates their investment approach, what learnings have shifted their career trajectories, and how do they find their next great idea? Invest 30 minutes in an episode today. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Published by Capital Client Group, Inc. And we're back, Scott. Something that you predicted we've talked about. After barely six months, Quibi, the short-form video app, is shutting down.

Who could have seen that coming? You did. Would you like to take a bow? Everybody says hindsight is 20-20. I got a call from the CFO of Quibi before it even launched and said, you have to stop dancing on our grave before we've even been birthed. I thought this made absolutely no sense. Before it even launched, everyone's saying, well. This is before the pandemic. I wrote a blog post on No Roots for Mouths called Four Weddings and a Funeral.

And I said, basically, Quibi's going to be stillborn. This is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. First off, what we really need. Go through why you thought it was stupid. Go, tell us why. Well, okay. A couple, this is what we need. A couple of sexagenarians telling millennials what UI, UX they need to interact with, with

media. They don't even understand what media. That is just so, also great companies start small. They validate a concept and then they almost always pivot to something that's working. This was, we're going to start with a billion and a half dollars. Yeah, it was a little loud. If you look at media consumption, it barbells. It's either 10 to 30-second TikTok videos, or it's an hour-long Mindhunters.

There was no evidence that people wanted a five-minute video. It just, everything about nothing. And also, just in terms of just sheer fucking math, Apple is providing, Apple is providing a billion dollars worth of content for every 80 cents a month you spend on Apple TV+. And Quibi came in to a howitzer fight with a squirt gun and said, I know we're such geniuses. We'll figure out a way to charge you four to five dollars a month for a billion dollars in content. It was a terrible value proposition, a terrible strategy with management that had absolutely no concept of what their target audience wanted. It just, and even, even at South by Southwest, I went to hear Meg Whitman and she, and her strategy was,

we're bringing together the best of the Bay Area and Los Angeles. I'm like, what is that, an In-N-Out burger on sourdough? What does that even mean? That is what that is. That would have been a hit. That sounds pretty good. That sounds pretty good. Yeah, that sounds delicious. There's our business.

Now that's a business that's a winner. So Quibi wasn't short-form video. It was short-form business. I mean, it's hard to imagine. Even WeWork at its peak didn't burn through $2 billion in less than six months. And now the lesson here to entrepreneurs- You did a lot of Hollywood was like lining up to do those deals. You know, Vox Media had one too. I think they did. I don't know.

Warner Media invested in it. Everybody did. The good news is, especially when you're 69, the best thing as an entrepreneur is success. The second best thing is to fail fast. And I always say to people when their businesses just crash fast, I'm like, this is a blessing. I took 10 years to fail at Red Envelope. That is the worst professional experience I had, not because the experience itself was that bad, but because it took place over a decade. And the only truly finite resource is time, right? And so what if 69-year-old Jeffrey Katzenberg, what if it had taken him 11 years to figure out this thing didn't work?

So to a certain extent, I think it's a good thing they failed this fast. But this business is a mix of hubris, a mix of – I find the whole thing is going to be a fascinating case study. But rest in peace, Quibi. We barely knew you. Typically, tombstones that go from like 2020 to 2020 are very sad. This one is not that sad. This was predictable. So they talked about returning money to their shareholders, some of the money. I think there's a billion.

There's some money left that's going back to shareholders. They tried to sell it. How do you think those meetings went? that's going back to shareholders. They tried to sell it. How do you think those meetings went? Well, you know what? The indication of the fact that the market may crash here is that supposedly, supposedly,

they were entertaining serious discussions about selling it to a SPAC. And I do think to their credit, keep in mind, that's how ridiculous the market has gotten for SPACs. By the way, I have received, I have received in the last five business days, three calls to either invest in or go on the board of a SPAC. SPACs are so out of control right now.

My ex called me. Should I invest in SPAC? I'm like, no. No, you cannot. No. Megan, how is Megan? Anyways. She's good.

So, to their credit, Meg Whitman and Jeffrey Katzenberg are both class acts. And something that I do think is a class move when you're an entrepreneur, always save enough money so you can pay your payroll taxes, be generous with severance, and close the company down responsibly. Because the real rookie move that a lot of young entrepreneurs make is they literally crash into a wall. They enter into consensual hallucination that we'll figure it out. We're having discussions. They didn't want those stories. They didn't want those stories. But that's the classmate.

That is, quite frankly, the benefit of having senior citizens as the founders here. Is there like, no. At times you're going to call them old. Well, who would you pick to meet? I had that issue with Jeff when he brought me the idea. I mean, come on, boss. We were having breakfast in Los Angeles. I'm like, why do you think you know what young people want?

Start a business in Life Alert or in cruise ships or something. Yeah. Or run for president. Do it every – be young. Run for president. Two things. What happens to all this content? Where does it go?

Does it just not – What happens to it? Do we really care? Does anyone really care what Chrissy Teigen as Judge Judy goes? Do we really care? All right. I'm not sure you know. Some of it wasn't bad. I think the agreements.

Some of it was not bad. The agreements said. They get to take it back. They get to keep it back. Yeah, I think the content reverts to the owners, but everyone talks as if the content. You couldn't get – supposedly they got like 17,000 people to agree to pay five bucks a month for this thing. So clearly the content, quite frankly, just doesn't have that much value. So the notion that it's going to be a big sale. There is too much of other good stuff, you're right, for a lot less money, for a lot less money,

if no money at all kind of thing, which is really interesting. And also you can just like, it is so interesting, speaking of which, very briefly, we should talk about what's going on with TikTok and the Trump administration. I think they have until mid-November at least, but, you know, they're just chugging along, doing kind of interesting content, like people are doing, and they just removed QAnon from it very quickly and stuff like that this week, and QAnon and white supremacists, they've clamped down on that. It's really interesting that that's what's really great, and of course that's what gets attacked because of the Chinese ownership.

But it'll be interesting to see what the next content startup is, if there's going to be one. This has been tried a lot. This just happens to be big numbers, Quibi is. But where is the next opening for content startups, if at all, speaking of large companies taking over everything? Well, that's an interesting one. But what have the media companies that have been successful had in common? One, they figured out a way to create

media inexpensively by having other people create their media. And two, they're algorithmically driven. And so Quibi was neither of those things. It was expensive content and the algorithm didn't seem to be offering anything that unique. I think TikTok is just a juggernaut. But again, going back to the Trump administration, talk about a poor allocation of resources. Nothing has happened. As it relates to the Trump administration, I don't even think this Oracle deal is going to go through. I just think the whole thing was such a giant – talk about masturbation. This was just – I don't get it. In terms of where – and this goes back to antitrust.

Everything's linked back to antitrust in my view. All of Hollywood, this unbelievably huge profitable industry that basically drives a ton of wealth, huge profitable industry that basically drives a ton of wealth, whether it's a gaffer, a boom, or producers living in the Hollywood Hills, has been featurized. It's no longer in and among itself a profitable business. It's a means of a higher NPS score to differentiate another business that sells paper towels or handsets, which just kind of blows my mind. That's interesting. Well, but think, it's now an industry. It's now an industry that should have, that has no viable new entrants because a new entrant can't come into an industry where you need

an entry price of $5 billion and a willingness to lose money for a decade. Who can do that? The answer is big tech can do that and no one else can do it. So if you create content, it's great. But as a viable media company, there really isn't any viable media company right now. If they're in the business of content creation, unless they've already made the jump to live speed like Netflix that can announce they're spending the defense budget of Canada on content because they have a stock price greater than the automobile. I mean, the whole thing, Tim will- And then Netflix or whoever, all of the ones can suck up all the really good talent. The best thing we could do for our economy, the best thing we could do for our economy is to have Professor Tim Wu be a special counsel to the attorney general.

If we go through industry by industry and really look at these things and start deploying antitrust and regulation, you could oxygenate so many industries because you know what? The air above Los Angeles is not only orange, the oxygen is leaving because it's a small number of players controlling it. It's really its own fault here for just ignoring what was happening when they had the power to do something about it. I don't think they're victims by any stretch of the imagination. What do you think they could have done? The way they approached tech was so, you know, they just didn't approach

it in the way that needed to be approached. This was coming at them for the longest time and they had plenty of money and means to do something about it during all those years. They just were like, this is our great, you know. The whole idea right now of returning to, you know, as you see, I just watched which is going to be great, Ma Rainey's Black Bottom, you know, the whole idea right now of returning to, you know, as you see, I just watched, which is going to be great, Ma Rainey's Black Bottom, you know, the press

tour for it. They had Viola Davis and George C. Wolfe on a Zoom call. Like it was so much less expensive. It was perfectly fine discussing the movie. You know what I mean? Like, and I was like, all those premieres, all that ridiculous dressing up, all that, it's not returning. Like, you know, they think it's going to go back. Like, going into movie theaters, everything has changed drastically, like, in a way that I think they haven't realized. And that is something that they, I think they were, speaking of play acting, play acting the whole industry for the longest time. And it just changed out from under them when it was so clear that it was going to that this that this entertainment business was going to shift drastically they're

not going back to theaters people are going back to theaters in a smaller way and a much smaller you know you know much smaller but could be better could be a better way i i want to go to theaters but i want a fully great experience because i get a pretty good experience at home and there's never been better content i'm the creators are doing great great. I mean, everything I've seen on TV or movies has been, like I saw this Sherlock Holmes sister thing on, I think it was Netflix or whoever it was, it was fantastic. Everything is really great. It's just that the way the system they set up there is just ridiculous. I mean, it's just like now it looks so quaint at this point. So we'll see.

So Quibi, we hardly knew ye, as Scott says. Goodbye. What's Jeff Kassemer doing next from your perspective? What do you think? What would you do if you were him? He'll be an investor and go on boards. I don't think he'll be. You know, this is ages.

I think entrepreneurship is a young man's game. I started an online education company last year, and I just forgot how just how ridiculously fucking hard and exhausting it is. I think it's very difficult to start a company. I mean, there's research showing that the most successful entrepreneurs are actually in their 40s, which, quite frankly, I don't buy. I just think entrepreneurship, you have to be stupid. You have to be too crazy to know you're going to fail. You have to have no perspective on life, so you don't want to spend any time with loved ones

because the only way you can carve out a niche is to work 24 by 7, in my view. This Hallmark Channel vision of a startup where we all have balance and find the right role for everybody, it's Vietnam. If someone isn't adding value, you have to fire them that night. It's cycling through 50 people to get to the right core of 15. It's Vietnam. If someone isn't adding value, you have to fire them that night. It's cycling through 50 people to get to the right core of 15. I mean, it is really, you did a startup.

Yeah. These things are just exhausting and hard. I agree. I think people a little older have a little more experience not to make stupid drive into the wall things. I did it in my 40s. You're right.

Well, that's your board and that's maybe a couple people on your management team. But I still think, I think entrepreneurship is a young woman's game. This is a bottom line. Young woman's game. I think it's, 40s. You're right. Well, that's your board, and that's maybe a couple people on your management team. But I still think entrepreneurship is a young woman's game. This is a bottom line. Young woman's game. I don't know. We'll see about that.

But in this case, they're going to go on to boards, Meg Whitman, the rest of them. Good try. Good try. Supposedly, Meg Whitman is being considered for a cabinet post. Oh, sure. She would be. Yep. That would make sense.

After her incredible run for governor where she decided we should put up a border wall. Oh, but wait. She has an undocumented worker for the last 30 years. And about the moment she decided to run for governor, she decided to fire her. Yeah, she sounds like a high-character person. She sounds like a high-character person. All right, all right. She's not.

I think we're going to get a different Republican. What about Mitt Romney for his secretary of state? He doesn't have to go to a dumb dinner. Mitt Romney is a very decent man. Yeah, he voted for him. I think he voted for his father. I think that's – he's not saying who he, he said he didn't vote for Trump, which is interesting. All these Republicans shifting over, that's interesting. Oh, God, you make

it, you're warming my heart. I don't want to say it out loud. I am feeling really good. Don't, don't, don't feel good. It's going to be a disaster. I interviewed Hillary Clinton yesterday, and I asked what... What did she say? What was her thoughts on that? Oh, you'll hear. It's really interesting. But I did ask her what she would do in case of a Trump administration, and the answer you'll enjoy. You'll enjoy. I'm going to hold it at that in any case. She has an answer. Anyway, let's go to a

listener mail question. You've got, you've got, I can't believe I'm going to be a mailman. You've got mail. Hi, Cara and Scott. This is Jason McMillan from the mountains of Colorado. I appreciated the optimism about Airbnb. Cara, you're right. Airbnb is flawless 99% of the time, which is an incredible achievement for such a seemingly risky structure. As far as the upcoming IPO, I would love to see Airbnb offer a directed share program for their hosts. Seems like a great way to reward the folks who help build such a dynamic platform. What do you see as the risks and rewards for offering this? Thanks, team, for trying to keep the system honest. It's so nice from Colorado.

Colorado's a lovely place. Talk about a great brand, Colorado, right? Yeah, exactly. What a great brand. Well, some of it. Not all of it. There's a lot of anti- Well, lots of things in Colorado.

In any case- My favorite elected official, Senator Michael Bennett. The senior senator. Soon to be the- Jared Paulus, an ex-Internet president. He's fantastic. He is. Governor Paulus, he's fantastic.

I met him when he was selling greeting cards online. And by the way, he was our biggest competitor. Literally, it was pro flowers and red envelope. He goes on to be governor of fucking California. I'm here with you. What went wrong? What went wrong? And I didn't even have like a cool masturbation scandal to justify it.

Jared was sort of this little odd duck with a little briefcase and everything else. He was great. His parents were two hippies. Substance is the new black in politics. That guy has substance. His parents were really interesting. I feel like I made him by advising his parents to sell. First openly gay governor, I believe. He is, but he wasn't gay at the time. I openly gay at the time. But let me just say, I did convince his parents to sell the company. So, it's going to be in my book. And now he's governor. He got the money to do so.

They're great. His parents were great who started it. In any case, Airbnb. I didn't say 99% because I think they've made a lot of stupid errors around parties and various things. And the way they presented themselves to cities when there was clear problems around, not no longer, but this was one of their issues. They didn't handle it as well as they could have. But they've been, overall, compared to most companies I cover, they certainly are, they seem like geniuses. So what do you think, Scott? This is something that you talk about

with Uber and everything else. So I think that Brian Chesky would be open to this model. I think the difficulty is in executing it, correct? I don't know. Scott, what do you think? There are several tensions in our society. A key to progress is conflict and debate. And there's been several opposing forces where the tension has been really productive in shaping our economy. And it's government versus private sector. It's a really unhealthy tension is fact versus fiction, where fiction has become the new fact. And fact's been pressed out mostly by social media that wants to give fiction more oxygen at the cost of fact. But the real tension that's gotten out of balance here is capital versus labor. And if you think about it, through the 50s and 60s, shareholder returns were awful. And so shareholders showed up and said, we've had enough. And they

started conducting activist campaigns and said, you need to tighten up the ship. You need to stop paying your employees, stop paying your employees as much as you need to stop. You need to start returning more money to shareholders. And since then, the minimum wage has declined on an inflation-adjusted basis, and the S&P has roared. And basically, capital has been kicking the shit out of labor for the last 40 years. And so, I think it's dangerous to depend on the generosity of strangers and Brian Chesky, who I think might, in fact, put in place some sort of direct share program. But we need some sort of regulation, whether it's an increase in minimum wage, an increase in the power or protection of unions, or some sort of taxation system where if a certain amount of equity or your profits don't end up in the hands of your employees, even if

you really wanted to go German, but we won't do that because anything Europe does, we assume is socialist for some reason. But Germany demands that a certain number of your independent board seats or a certain number of your employees are on your board. But we need to put in place regulations and laws and a general gestalt in our society that returns more power to labor. We have totally prioritized the consumer's king, the close second is shareholder, and a distant third is worker. It'll be interesting to see if Brian Chesky does something like this, because he's inclined this way. He's someone who at least will entertain this when you talk. His parents are social workers. His parents are social workers. His parents are so nice. I can't even tell you how nice his parents are. They're lovely people.

Are they as nice as the Polis parents? Let's get them all together for a brunch. We'll get Jeffrey Katzenberg to come and talk to them about life alert. The Polis are lovely people, I'm just telling you. No, the Polis has started that company, just so you know. Not Jared, but he was involved. Yes, his parents out of a van. They were hippies. And it was like, if you ever remember that show where Michael J. Fox was on,

where he was the conservative and his parents were the hippies. Family ties. Family ties. Meredith Baxter Burney. But his father and mother started the company. Let me guess, you dragged Meredith Baxter Burney out of the closet. No, I did. I dragged her out.

No. In any case, that was a welcome person to come into the gay world. In any case, Brian would be open to this, I suspect. And I think they're thinking about it in the way Uber never thought about it. I talked to Dara about this many times, and he sort of said the right things but didn't really mean it, I think, compared to Brian. I think Brian would think of this. I think one of the things that he is aware of is how much difficulty there is among his super hosts and people like that who are really important to the model. Before, he was sort of more fighting city regulators and hotel industries.

I think he thinks a lot about a very unhappy group of folks who are important to his business, which are the hosts. And so I suspect he's got to think about it. It would be really interesting if they put an employee or a host on the board. I think that would be fascinating. One of their super hosts, someone who's, you know, obviously inclined to like Airbnb. But to me, I agree with you. I think the German model is important.

It's astonishing that they don't, and not just one, like they have just one woman or one person of color, like a lot. Like, so you create a board that really is truly, you know, it's incredible. It just, I think it adds to the, and it also de-escalates tensions that could happen. And that person does, if you get the right person, takes their job seriously as that representative. And so that would be interesting to put them on the boards. The second is how you give, who you give people's shares to would be very difficult. I believe it was super difficult with

Uber drivers. It would depend if they were, you know, there was a whole employee thing that got sucked up into that. So, in this case, these are not employees. They are not. And so, what do you, how do you reward them in some way? I think, I'm sure a smart lawyer could figure it out. Yeah, I think they could figure it out.

Yeah. It also gives them a nice sheen for people looking to regulate them, for sure. And I haven't talked directly to Dara because we just interviewed him, but I've talked directly. One of the wonderful things about when I do these posts is I hear from people, including Brian. And I think Brian is genuine that Airbnb does really, in fact, arbitrage these fallow assets, whereas Uber arbitrages an underclass. And so, the two are just different companies. One of the observations I would have, or that I learned talking to Brian when I heard his background, is just as in the 50s and 60s, basically, managers had, or CEOs had high EQ, and they came out of manufacturing,

then for a hot minute, they came out of general management. Then for a hot minute, then marketing. Now the core domain expertise that funders look for in a founding management team is technology. I wonder if that's morphing to another skill set, and that is UX or UI UX. If you think about Pinterest, Snap, and now Airbnb, the CEOs all come from a design background. And I wonder if the technology is like manufacturing, hitting a limit in terms of differentiation. And the real point of differentiation in tech is your ability to create the language of technology, and that's a superior UI UX.

Or UX UI. Because Chesky came from RISD. Yeah, he did. Evan Spiegel was Stanford design. Ben Silverman is also a design guy. So I'm thinking, I mean, I'm just thinking about my own, in terms of the curriculum at NYU Stern, and from my own online things section form, thinking about what is the next wave of skills.

And I think design is actually going to be, you're going to see many more people with a background, a hardcore background in design in the C-suite. I don't know where I was headed with that, but I think that Airbnb... He's definitely a more copacetic CEO. I think he's serious about trying to do something around this. He thinks about it for sure. And I think he is influenced. It's really important. People don't think these people have parents and stuff like that. I think in his case, he's very influenced by his parents and his upbringing.

And so it's going to be, it's interesting. And I think he's at least aware of it. And let's see if he puts lip service to it or actually does something about it. But again, it's so dangerous. It's so dangerous to just wait for the innovators and the billionaires to save us, right? We need regulation. We need to recognize that as a percentage of GDP, as a percentage of GDP,

wages have never been lower. Wages have never, and look where that's gotten us. It's gotten us to a point where we have to spend trillions of dollars on stimulus because 40% of America doesn't have 400 bucks and has absolutely no protective wear when a crisis hits. It's like you pay now or you pay later, and when you pay later, you pay more. We just need to make more forward-leaning investments.

I agree. This could be a very great opportunity for labor at this point to really jump back from this. And I think they could. They really could. I think it really is a good example of people. I think a politician who really does focus in on labor, like Bernie Sanders and others, I think it's really, there's a big way. It was interesting. I don't know if you saw AOC on, she was on Twitch. Like she immediately attracted hundreds of thousands of users.

Yeah, half a million people. Political star among us, the game they're playing. Her language, I think, is going to be very powerful going forward, things like that, because it's combined with sort of a regular gal kind of thing going on, like, here I am playing Twitch, here I am doing this. Like, AOC is like, she pulled a Disney. She's thinking about distribution. And the medium is the message, and she's so smart.

She went on Twitch, gets a half a million people, and immediately signals. I mean, not only an incredible venue, but she immediately signals to the rest of the world. It seems like such a basic initiative, and it's so smart. And, you know, no one else thought of it. She gets a half a million people, and what does it say? You see all this press, AOC, Twitch. AOC plus Twitch means she gets it. She would never start Quibi.

She would never start Quibi. She would never start Quibi. She would never start Quibi. Pretty sure she's not an investor in Quibi. That's kind of a prediction, Scott. So we'll do one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions. Support for this podcast comes from Anthropic. You already know that AI is transforming the world around us,

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I thought Biden just has so much momentum. I worry there's some sort of surprise coming. I think when you back— There's been a lot of surprises. They just haven't stuck. When you back an animal into a corner, and I think the president is facing jail time if he doesn't get reelected. So I think he's going to—and he's not listening to advisors. So I think the opportunities or the willingness or the likelihood that something, he tries something crazy are going up and up. And whether that tonight is a venue for crazy town, we'll see. But I'll definitely tune in.

I said he's going to joke more. I said he's going to joke more. He's going to be more likable? Yeah, that's not. I don't think his jokes work on everyone. His like stupid jokes about love me. That's interesting. You don't find the president likable and funny?

That's a shocker. You know the expression about Hillary Clinton, you're likable enough. He's not likable enough. He's not even that. He's not even that. It wasn't a joke. That wasn't a cool thing that Barack Obama did. In any case, and Barack Obama, by the way, in his speech.

Oh, he's on fire. Oh, wow. He's really good. God, I missed him. I was like, oh, look. Yeah, I know. There's so much energy. They've brought in the Marines.

The Marines usually land first on the beach. He's coming in. And he, like, poked at Trump, and he's now like, I'm just going to go for it. Forget being the dignified Barack Obama. We were all waiting. We all knew he was going to show up. We all knew he was going to show up. Yeah, well, he needs to show up the next few weeks and make a speech like that every day.

He's like Guns N' Roses that comes out at 11 p.m. for a concert at 8. You know, it's supposed to start at 8. He just built a lot of creative tension. So predictions. Prediction. So I think between now and the end of the year, we're going to see two or three of the most volatile days in the history of the markets. Oh, dear. There are just so many canaries in the coal mine, the least of which is, or not the least of which, is these ridiculous SPACs, where we've had four times the amount of capital raised year to date. Where they're basically betting on people's reputation, and all a SPAC is.

And the NYSE, the head of NYSE wants to say it's different. They always want to say it's different this time. I would say, okay, so 50% of my friends who don't live in Florida are thinking about moving down. And I'm not exaggerating. 20% to 30% of my friends are either involved in or raising a SPAC right now. This has gotten totally out of hand when the markets are so horny and so frothy that they're willing to fund management teams without the benefit of a business idea. And the markets say, the market's incredible at supplying ideas and management team and things to buy when the capital is there. And there's too much capital and it's reaching too

far into the trough here to try and find shares to buy. And I think it's an indicator. If you look at SPACs over the last 15 years, they're down on average, only one in three is above where it went public at. And on average, I think they've returned negative 35% versus the traditional IPO, which is up 35%. So, this is just – the canary here is coughing, and a big one is the SPACs. In addition, you look at the fact we're in a global pandemic. You look at the markets are at all-time highs. You look at the concentration of power. You look at Robinhood, the fact that this ridiculous –

these story stocks fueled by kids in their basements with a stimulus. There are just so many – if the market goes down 10 or 12 percent of the day, we're going to say, well, of course it did. So anyways, my prediction, we're going to see volatility the likes of which we haven't seen before sometime between now and the end of the year. All right. Well, and plus, remember, Trump will still be president even if he loses for quite a long time. Enough of a time, then he will be or he quits. The thing about crises is they never come from where you're expecting. What if all of a sudden people say, oh, Biden is going to eliminate capital gains tax, he wins,

and all of a sudden everyone starts selling their stock to lock in the 22.8 versus the 40%. I mean, you don't know what triggers it here, right? But it's like you don't know what triggers a fire. But when you have a climate that keeps getting hotter, you have a forest that hasn't been burned in a while, you know a fire is about to... The air is so dry right now, it's just going to take a lightning strike somewhere to really—to have a forest fire in the markets right now. Very interesting metaphor, lightning strike. There's still California fires, by the way, speaking of which, going on. I think that is a very good prediction. I think that is a very good prediction. And I'm going to make a short one, if you don't mind.

Yes, I can't wait for this. I hear that tone in your voice. I'm sorry, go ahead. Here's the deal. They're about to shove through Amy Coney Barrett through the Senate is shoving her through to become a Supreme Court Justice.

She will be the worst Supreme Court Justice we've ever had. Well, the good news is she'll only be around for 50 years. Yeah, exactly. Let me just say that the story that AP just, I think it was AP that just put out about her affiliation on the board for three years of a school that kept out not only gay kids, but kids whose parents were gay and gay teachers.

And she was on the board of a school that did this. I agree. She is a shameful, shameful selection. This is shameful over all these years, especially with two other justices talking about turning it. Now, this is a personal thing, but it's shameful that she didn't talk about it. She didn't have to answer questions about this, that she avoided questions. She's a shameful person for not at least if she has these terrible views, she should have said it. Stand on her two feet.

Just say what you are. And that she didn't, because she's a very, she's not like, you know, Clarence Thomas, who really couldn't, is just not even close to her in terms of intellect. That she couldn't just honestly say what she believed is shameful. And shoving them through, throwing her through with this kind of information, which they, of course, they had, is just, she will be the worst Supreme Court justice in history. And I hope I am proven wrong. Thank you. Thank you. That was my comment. I thought one of the most telling moments of the hearings was they said, do you believe, I forget what it was, do you believe in a—

Oh, sexual preference. She talked, they presented with two kind of scientific things, and they said, do you believe that climate change is man-made? And she said, well, you've given me two examples of where there's a clear correlation, but I'm not going to take the bait and talk about something where there's a lot of political controversy. And I'm like, there's not – you know, if you ask 99 of 100 climate scientists, this isn't a controversy. This isn't. This is science. We have thermometers stuck in the ocean all over the world that are registering a heating of the planet. I am not an environmentalist.

I think, you know, I'm one of these guys that thinks after our species goes out of business, the Earth is going to belt for 10 years and then it's going to return to normal. I've been shocked how fast our water and our air has returned to some sense of normalcy after a lack of commuting. So, by any stretch of the imagination, I'm not an environmentalist. But if you can't deny or if you try to deny or you think that that's somehow controversial, climate change, it goes, it all feeds into this. And everyone has avoided, everyone has avoided the following. She has said repeatedly that her work, her legal work, all is in service of the kingdom of God. And that scares the shit out of me, because maybe your God isn't my God. And it really, to use that as to openly acknowledge

that that is what drives you, it's like, okay, now you're serving the Constitution. Anyway, I agree with you. She is frightening. She is frightening. And she's going to be around for 50 years. Say who you are so we know. Stand on your feet. To me. Stand on your feet.

And what you are is obviously homophobic. If you served on a board like that, you are an obvious homophobe. And that is just – just say it. Just say what you are so I can see you. And that's what I feel about her. You know, it's on lots of issues. But the one that really struck home that, you know, my son was like, okay, so, you know, my son's a straight kid. He's the second down, he's a straight kid. And he's like, that means I couldn't go to the school. I'm like, yeah, that's right. This is why elections count. Anyway, there you have it. What are you doing this week, Cara? This week,

I'm interviewing a whole bunch of people, first way, and I am going to watch the debates tonight and then work on some other stuff. I'm busy all the time. I have a very angry column about Amy Coney Barrett coming. I'll tell you that. I can't wait. All right, before we go, you know the drill.

Email us with questions about companies and trends in tech and business at pivot at voxmedia.com. It can be anything we've talked about or anything else. Today's show was produced by Rebecca Sinanis. Fernando Finite engineered this episode. Erica Anderson is Pivot's executive producer. Thanks also to Hannah Rosen and Drew Burrows. Make sure you subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, or if you're an Android user, check us out on Spotify, or frankly, wherever

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