Pivot - Don Lemon Returns, Bitcoin ETF Approval, and BI vs. Axel Springer

Episode Date: January 12, 2024

Kara and Scott discuss the final GOP debate before the Iowa caucuses, the SEC approving Bitcoin ETFs, and Apple Vision Pro getting ready to hit the market. Then, Don Lemon is back with a new show, but can X really be a contender in the online video space? Plus, Business Insider's clash with parent company Axel Springer over plagiarism articles on Bill Ackman's wife, Neri Oxman. Follow us on Instagram and Threads at @pivotpodcastofficial. Follow us on TikTok at @pivotpodcast. Send us your questions by calling us at 855-51-PIVOT, or at nymag.com/pivot. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Just go to Indeed.com slash podcast right now and say you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? You need Indeed. Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher, and I just flew in from California, and gee, are my arms tired.

Oh, that's good. Scott, I got diverted because of the Alaska Airlines thing. They're grounding planes all over the place. Oh, the 737s. Yeah, like six flights of mine got canceled, and I had to keep trying to figure out how to get... I almost went through Cleveland, and I just got back this morning at 7 o'clock. Oh, wow. Are you happy to be back? Is that why you seem like you're sort of in a bad mood before the podcast? I always do a joke and you usually laugh and you weren't laughing.

Oh, wow. It was a bad joke. Are you tired? It was a bad joke. It involved a Tyson vacuum. Yeah. That can't be wrong. Dyson. Dyson? Oh, Dyson, excuse me.

Dyson is a chicken. Also probably the most vicious pugilist in history. Yeah. Anyway, oh, that's true. Mike Dyson. So, no, I just was in California. I'll tell you about it when we talk about Don. D'Lamont.

D'Lamont. I was in San Francisco and Los Angeles. It was lovely. We're sort of semi-friends because you introduced us. I'm getting together with him in New York. Oh, are you? Cool. No, I'll take him somewhere where people will see me hanging out

with a handsome celebrity. I see. That's cred to me. I'll take him to one of my members only clubs. Oh, yeah. So it's the same thing with these famous people. They sit down and they ask me for career advice. Yeah.

You know, Alex Swisher is asking me for career advice. You're going to talk to him now. Yeah, but he's savable. He's on the way up. I usually get people on their way down. It's very sweet. Alex called me and asked if Scott can help him figure out the correct major. Of course, I can't help him at all, apparently. But I thought that was lovely because you were so good at helping him pick the right college. He loves Michigan. I've actually done some research. I'm excited to speak to him. But just the phenomena you are experiencing,

my boys want nothing to do. I've heard from every, you know, every young man in America wanting advice except my own children. They will. They will. Well, let me just say. Still waiting.

You did a good job. And Alex is out partying with the University of Michigan winning that game against Washington. That game. Yeah. That's the baller stuff game. Washington. That game. Yeah. That's the baller stuff game. Yeah, that game.

Go blue. Go blue. How was your weekend? How was your week since I saw you? You know, the week, I guess. My week? I'm trying to get back into the swing of things. It's literally 36 degrees.

It started snowing the other night here. It's cold here, too. And I'm just trying to get back in the swing. I feel like I liked our podcast, but my podcast at Prop G haven't been very good. I'm trying, like my writing is sort of tired. You really do get out of shape pretty quickly. You do. You got to keep it going. You got to keep going. You do, don't you? It's a marathon. It's like a long hill up and a fast hill down. That is correct. And I haven't worked out as much over the holidays, so I was like exhausted today doing basic.

Anyway, I'm trying to get back. Get back. I'm trying to. Get back. I know what you mean. I know what you mean. It is. It's exhausting.

Getting back in shape. Anyway, we have a lot to talk about today, which is almost completely different. Business insider at odds with parent company, Axel Springer. I have to say it like that because it's menacing. And Don Lemon announcing his new venture as X tries to pivot to video. But first, Nikki Haley and Ron DeSantis went head to head Wednesday night in the final GOP debate before Iowa was kind of mean. It was they were like whacking at each other. Well, the candidates discussed taxes, abortion, foreign policy. They spent a fair amount of time

accusing each other of lying. Let's listen to a clip. But every time he lies, Drake University, don't turn this into a drinking game because you will be over served by the end of the night. Haley kept repeating and she shouldn't have done this as much. Her campaign funded website, DeSantis lies dot com. Here's one from DeSantis. Let's give Ron a little run around the insult train. She's got this problem with ballistic podiatry, shooting herself in the foot every other day, saying things that now she doesn't even take questions from people. That was really stupid. It was really stupid. But let me finish.

Former President Donald Trump was absent from the debate as usual, including on the debate stage. They didn't talk about him very much or they avoided. They did. They had a few things that were negative towards him, but he really should be center of the whole thing. He held a Fox News town hall where he hinted he had decided on a VP. He gave himself pats on the backs for Roe v. Wade, which I thought was a huge error the way he did it. He has nearly 50% lead in most Iowa polls. But ahead of the big night, Chris Christie officially dropped out of the race, and a lot of those votes are going to Nikki Haley, so she might

prevail in New Hampshire. Did you watch any of this, Scott? I watched the clips. I watched, you know, the highlights, and both candidates were terribly advised. If one candidate, I mean, first off, Trump absolutely won the night. Trump's clips from that night when he did this Foxtown Hall were when they asked him directly about retribution, recognizing that he has gone full autocrat when he threatens to be, when he threatens to weaponize his powers as president to go after his political enemies. That is a definition of fascism. He walked out back and said, I don't have time for retribution, and the best retribution is success. Those were great lines. They had such

an opportunity, both DeSantis and Haley, and they absolutely blew it. And it would have been the following. One of them should have entirely ignored the other, entirely ignored. Her, she should have. She or he. They were both terribly advised. They both fell into the same rabbit hole, and that is they think they're running for VP instead of president,

and they're not running against each other. They're running against Donald Trump. And if they performed well that night against Donald Trump, they're going to bump up 10 points. If they perform well against the other, they might go up one or two points because there's not that much pie to go after with the other. And they would have absolutely been better advised to have pretended the other person wasn't on the stage, never respond to an

insult, never go low, never try and jab back at the distant number two and just talked about policy and said Donald Trump is an insurrectionist. Donald Trump's policies have failed. Donald Trump is about to take the Republican Party to Loserville for the third time in a row and literally pretended the other person wasn't there. They would have won the night because their competition isn't each other. I just, they were so poorly advised. Yeah, it was interesting. They don't, can't seem

to be able to do it. They really can't. They cannot. She gets closest to it, but, you know, with Chris Christie dropping up, there's a big wide berth for that, right? But not too, not Chris Christie far.

And by the way, his speech withdrawing was quite wonderful, I have to say. It was really well done. He's a beautiful speaker, I have to say. He really can articulate everything he has to say. You know, and of course, he got caught on a hot mic. I don't know how hot it was.

I think he probably didn't mind it happening. Saying she was going to get what was it? Smoked? She was going to get smoked. Yeah, and said that Ron DeSantis was petr get smoked. Did you say that? Roasted or smoked? Yeah, and said that Ron DeSantis was petrified. And, you know, he'll be an interesting character in the, well, he's not really in the Republican Party anymore, is he?

He's in something. Anyway. Yeah, I agree. Nothing was gained by these two. But I feel like she's going to win in New Hampshire now. And that'll be good. One of the things I interviewed, among others, Maggie Haberman. So it's already dropped.

And she and others said that dragging it out would be bad for Trump if he doesn't have decisive wins very early. It creates questions around him. It was interesting. It was interesting. We'll see. Probably not. It would be hard to believe that one or both of them, and I think it's most likely Governor Haley, doesn't come up. It's very rare that someone runs away with it that early. It usually does tighten a bit. Well, at least it's the incumbent, so to speak. But go ahead. I'd be shocked if the race doesn't tighten it a little bit.

It almost always does. It's usually not at this early. America likes to see a fight. So I'd be, I would be shocked if there's not at least a glimpse. And the media will pick up on it. The media wants a fight. I'd like you to predict a vice president. I have absolutely no idea.

What do you think, Kara? I think Kristi Noem, although she's got a lot of hair on her and has a nice set of hair. Or Marsha Blackburn. Oh, gosh. Yeah. They would literally look like, I don't know, the lamest redo of Golden Girls. Yeah, that's true. They're too old.

Governor Haley would be my fear. These people are so horny for power. I disagree. The reason they didn't go after Trump is because— No, no, he's not going to do it because— Oh, I see what so horny for power. I disagree. The reason they didn't go after Trump is- No, no, he's not going to do it because- Oh, I see what you're saying. Yeah. She's too establishment. He doesn't want any of those people in the new administration. That would scare the shit out of me because, quite frankly, I think Governor Haley would, I don't want to say solidify, her as his VP would significantly, in my opinion, increase the likelihood that he would beat Biden.

Yep. Yep. I think that would be a consequential VP pick. But he's not going to do it he's going to pick watch watch he picks marjorie taylor green she's among the names being bandied about just so you know maybe tim scott i don't think they're that dumb tim scott maybe um he would be good that would be additive accretive because i think more than anything who's going to play in this election is going to be Vice President Harris. And fairly or unfairly, I think America is not comfortable with the prospect of her being president. And when you have a president who has somewhere between a 6% and 10% chance each year, according to actuarial tables, of dying, the vice president plays a bigger role. Unless she does. She's almost disappeared, it feels like.

I think the GOP is going to start running ads. It's saying, President Harris, think about that. Yeah, that's true. It's a liability for him. And he's already, the polls are already showing really bad things for him. But, you know, it's a long time to November. It is a long time. It is a long time.

So another story, Bitcoin. This is interesting. Bitcoin exchange traded funds are already trading following SEC approval. The 11-spot Bitcoin ETFs will make crypto more accessible, allowing investors to gain exposure to crypto without buying it themselves. The decision is expected to lead to a conversion of grayscale Bitcoin trust holder of $29 billion of cryptocurrency into an ETF. BlackRock and Fidelity are also expected

to launch Bitcoin funds. At the time of the taping, Bitcoin is up over 7%. Part of it was a day after the SEC's X account was compromised, announcing the approval early. It's because it didn't have two-factor authentication on it. What do you think of this? I'm really interested because we've been sort of meh on, not meh, but just on most cryptocurrency, not Bitcoin necessarily. But what are your thoughts? I think there's a lot of lessons here. The first is that the way you get, or one of the ways you get wealthy, is running into the fire. And when you think about, I mean, Bitcoin's up 70% in recent months, and some of these other coins,

Solana, are literally exponentially. And so when the consensus is something is just terrible and going away, you need to kind of check your emotions and say, okay, does this represent an opportunity? Because typically the biggest opportunities are literally running into the fire. And there's just no getting around it. The crypto market has defied all expectations and punditry and has come ripping back in the context of- Certain ones, certain ones, yeah. Yeah. I mean, crypto's resurgence has been remarkable. I just don't, and I mean,

this is in the face of the two primary characters, what is the name, Xiao and Bankman-Fried, are both going to prison. Right. But this puts it in a much more stable place. If you've got, you know, you can buy into it. It's like buying any kind of asset, right? Well, that's exactly right. Because if I said to you, how can you buy Bitcoin today? Would you know? I would because I bought it before, but yes. But I think 90% of people who haven't purchased it would have no idea how to actually purchase Bitcoin. And this

not only brings a halo of legitimacy to it, it brings greater scrutiny, and it also will starch out many of the transaction fees, because these ETFs are already competing against each other and bringing down fees. Now, everybody, where I go with this, though, is that the analogy is that the company I think this will have the biggest impact on is Coinbase. Because the analogy I would use is that Coinbase is the AOL of the crypto age. Oh, nice. I was just thinking that. I was like, why? Because they're going to just, you know, they were the early people who gave people the tools. But now Fidelity, I'd buy it through Fidelity. I was like, why? Because they're going to just, you know, they were the early people who gave people the tools. But now Fidelity, I'd buy it through Fidelity. I'm not buying it through Coinbase.

That's exactly right. Because people didn't know how to access the internet and the web in the 90s. So they found this safe layer of software on top of it that was friendly and easy to use. And that's Coinbase. And when all of a sudden you can access the web with browsers, specifically an ETF, and it's easy to buy and sell Bitcoin, I believe that the market sensed this was going to happen, see above 70% run up. And then last night when this was announced in the after hour trading, Coinbase exploded up to 160. And as we sit here now, when people are digesting it, it's back to about 147 and it's down. I think this is really bad news for what I would describe as the AOL of 2024, and that is Coinbase. And there's a couple of those. You're right. They were there

to facilitate and make it easier, but people mostly trust, you know, Fidelity. I was just, when I saw the, I would buy it through, I'm going to buy it through Fidelity. It's just. And to be fair, I think seven of the 10 ETFs are going to be sold through Coinbase, but the fees, I mean, to a certain extent, the dislocation and the asymmetry of information resulted in really fat margins and fees for the brokers. But once Vanguard and Schwab are into this thing, they're going to starch out the fees. They're going to say, OK, you can trade this stuff really inexpensively right now. It's good for Bitcoin.

It's really good for Michael Saylor and MicroStrategy and Bitcoin Bulls. I think this legitimizes it as a true store of value. I've never really, I mean, we'll see if it ends up being an incredible payment infrastructure, but this is great for Bitcoin.

I do think that this is good for the SEC. It's good for smaller coins that I think will get a natural updraft because you're just going to have more capital come into the crypto market. I think it's bad for Coinbase and other middleware. I agree. AOL is a good way to put it. Speaking of new things, great news. The Apple Vision Pro Mixed Reality Headset will go on sale in the U.S. on February 2nd. A headset will go on sale in the U.S. on February 2nd.

Pricing will start at $3,500, making it three times as expensive as Meta's line of mixed reality devices, which used to be expensive. And speaking of wearable devices, Humane, the creator of an AI pin meant to replace smartphones, has laid off 4% of its staff and transitions its CTO to an advisor role. The company's weird AI pin, I never liked that, is planned to begin shipping out in March. I invited you to a demo again. And you're trying to decline it. You cannot insult it without trying it. Let me just come out of the VR closet and officially decline it. I don't need to put this prophylactic on my head.

You're wrong. Cara, this has never been easier. Putting on a headset. I know, prophylactic. I've heard you. And for all of you sending me emails saying my dick jokes are offensive, just know every one of those I get to get, I'm going to go further down the rabbit hole and go more profane. Putting on a mixed reality headset is like putting on a strap-on. It communicates to the rest of the world that you have a dearth of mating opportunities and a really small dick. Well, you know, some people like strap-ons, Scott. Some people really enjoy them, but go ahead.

I'm not against it. Okay. I'm not against it. All right. Okay, two things. This thing, the headset, is a failure. The software and the R&D will pay off. Why?

Because the second mouse, the biggest second mouse in history, specifically Apple, is about to come in and take the cheese of the progress in the R&D that Meta has deployed. You know what actually is a pretty cool product and the coolest product that has ever been produced by Meta is their Ray-Ban virtual reality glasses. Yeah, I was trying them the other day. I like them quite a bit. My son, my 13-year-old bought a pair. We bought a pair for him for Christmas. And when we were skiing, he was wearing them. He wore them quite a bit. My son, my 13-year-old bought a pair. We bought a pair for him for Christmas. And when we were skiing, he was wearing them. He wore them the entire trip.

And I'd be on a chairlift and he'd look at me and he's like, Meta, take a photo. And I understand there's privacy concerns, but I put them on. The audio is amazing. And this is what's going to happen. Apple is going to develop all sorts of cool software with this stupid headset. And then they are going to come out with what is the equivalent of an Oliver Peoples Hermes aspirational pair of glasses that are AR enabled. It's going to be the biggest fashion accessory since the AirPods.

That may be. I just want you to see what they've done with the software. How about that? Not the device itself. What they've done with the software is startling, actually. I don't doubt it. I've tried them all. And by the way, let's just give a tip of the hat to Snapchat, which was very pioneering.

I don't think they're going to- 100%. I have all their various glasses and most of the others. So I've been trying these for a long time. I'm going to buy one. I'm going to buy one. I'm not going to let you use it for sure. Anyway, humane, I'm not as hot on these pins. I do think there's going to be an AI thing near you that answers questions. It was interesting because I interviewed Mark Thompson this week in California. What was interesting is that he was

talking about CNN, you know, that you'd go, oh, what happened this morning? Oh, what happened? You know, like that's, you're going to have that. And it's not going to be Alexa. It's going to be much more intimate.

And I think some of these glasses are like that. So they, it'll be, I mean, similar to how the seven series or the Maybach or I don't know what the right analogy is. The flagship doesn't sell a lot of cars, but that technology waterfalls down to the products that actually sell a lot. I don't doubt the software is amazing, but the form factor will be a really cool pair of sunglasses or regular glasses that have self-expressive benefit because Apple will partner with, I don't know, Chanel or, you know, my favorite sunglasses are Oliver Peoples. They will find, they will create the ultimate self-expressive luxury brand,

and they'll take that software and that interface that you're talking about, and they'll put it in something that increases your likelihood of having, of propagating and having, not having your family tree end. All right. Well, we will see. But I think it changes the office experience and the screen experience. And I think the entertainment and photography

is beautiful in it. And you need it to be immersive. Anyway, we'll see what happens. But I'm going to stay at your apartment and go for a demo. They've asked you. They nicely called me and said, do you think Scott will come? I said, doubtful. And I appreciate it.

And by the way, my largest holding, I think it's either Airbnb or Apple. I love Apple. I think Tim Cook is a leader. I love the firm. Headsets are fucking ridiculous. Laser disc and strap-ons combined together. Hi, I subscribe to the information, go to crypto conferences and have a very small penis. Well, crypto's up. Anyway, let's get to our first big story.

Business Insider and its parent company, Axel Springer, are clashing over recent articles alleging Bill Ackman's wife, Neary Oxman, plagiarized parts of her 2010 dissertation. Earlier this week, Axel Springer put out a statement saying it would, quote, review the processes and the motives around the stories to ensure that standards were upheld. Business Insider Editor-in-Chief Nicholas Carlson, who I've spoken to, says he's made a call to publish the stories and stands by them. This was unprecedented. I want to know what you think of it, but let me just say a few things. Axel Springer's head of communications told Puck's Dylan Byers that a review was launched because of some of the accusations Bill Ackman made about the stories, specifically the claim that investigating Oxman was anti-Semitic or anti-Zionist. Oxman was born in Israel. Just utter nonsense, I'm sorry. And alleging that one of the editors was anti-Zionist. Oxman was born in Israel. Just utter nonsense. I'm sorry. And alleging that one of the editors was anti-Zionist. And Elon has chimed in, of course, saying, I recommend a lawsuit. It's ridiculous because it's accurate. I think most reporters were like, this was accurate. This is crazy. And I can't believe they meddled like this. I am highly

disappointed in them. You know, it's because he's prominent and he screams a lot. And he's also gone back on what plagiarism is. He's changed his opinion after he got Claudine Gay. And now, when it applies to his wife, it's not plagiarism. And, you know, you and I agree about it. Neither of them is that big a deal. So he's been talking to Matthias Döpfner, he's talked to the directors and shareholders, you know, he's applying the same bullying aggression here things he does where he thinks he's on some sort of a holy grail of some sort. But, you know, he created this situation for his wife, unfortunately. So, what do you think? So, first off, I really appreciate that Bill Ackman is using his platform to talk about what I believe is unprecedented racism and anti-Semitism that I didn't know existed. And I admire that he is speaking out because you do get a lot of blowback. And as a big donor

and a leader in finance, I think he has the right to speak out. This, having said that, this is total bullshit. When Claudine Gay says that she was fired because of racism, When Claudine Gay says that she was fired because of racism, that is not true. She was fired because the ground shifted beneath her and because she said things that played into people's worst fears about a tolerance of anti-Semitism of which there is no similar tolerance across any other form of bigotry. And she was fired, which, by the way, happens all the time. And neither was a racism when the president of Penn was fired a couple of weeks before. At the same time, if again, we said this in the last show, if Bill Ackman wants to weaponize a time machine and start combing through Claudine Gay's past and specifically accusations or AI discovered accusations of plagiarism, he sets his wife up, who is also a prominent academic,

for the same type of scrutiny. And what is most upsetting about this is we are entering an era where billionaires like Peter Thiel or Elon Musk or Bill Ackman, unfortunately, can use their billions and their influence to suppress free speech and journalism. This is a free, I mean, if you want to actually talk about a free speech, billionaires, in my opinion, should not be creating a chill around what is, he may not like the reporting. I don't see anything that was not true in this. Yeah. But I also, quite frankly, and I'm a big fan of Matthias Doepfner. I'm disappointed he didn't stand behind Business Insider in this. I went back and I read the article and I'm like, this is hardly slander.

Everything I see in here is accurate. She handled it, his wife handled it well. They're right. Citation inaccuracy, I have fixed it. Bill was absolutely on the right track. And on the whole, I think his contribution to this mess or situation has been positive. But when he starts trying to put a chill on journalism with his billions, that is just bullshit. It is bullying and it's bad for America. Yeah. You know what? I don't agree with you.

I agree him calling out the issues of anti-Semitism. But this is a piece by Tim Noah, who I like quite a bit, wrote, I've written previously that Ackman's oligarchic bullying and brazen hypocrisy on the subject of anti-Semitism, even as Ackman was trying to blackball a bunch of teenagers whose Harvard student organization signed onto a foolish and offensive letter about the October 7th Hamas massacre. Ackman was simultaneously defending an anti-Semitic tweet made by 53-year-old Elon Musk. Elon Musk, 100%. The offending anti-Semitic tweet was not Musk's first, and it sent corporate advertisers leaving Twitter, X, and droves in a classic two-step maneuver, characteristics of bullies. Ackman punched down and kissed up, which is what I've said. Now Ackman has extended his hypocrisy into the realm of plagiarism, a project that includes bullying Axel Springer, the publisher of Business Insider, into investigating the ethics of its own scoop. The new campaign is more bizarre and potentially more dangerous. And he just changed his tune, like completely, like as if we're not paying attention. if we're not paying attention, he said he was going after gay on the board, finally publicly acknowledged some gays plagiarism, blah, blah, blah. And then he's now changed his opinion about plagiarism, because it applies to his wife,

which is the family off limits, the saying it's because his wife is Israeli. It's just nonsense. Saying they didn't call him quickly enough. But then it's also that we were having a Shabbat dinner. He knows how journalism works. It's just they don't, as Tim says, scoops do not arrive on a convenient schedule. It's just, it's just ridiculous. Come on, we were having Shabbat dinner. I know.

This is, again, I really didn't like it when Claudine Gay immediately pulled out the racism card when she was fired. I don't think it's any less distasteful that he is immediately going to anti-Semitism here. And also, George Carlin, who's kind of a hero of mine, said, I love people as individuals. He's like, you can see the universe in their eyes.

It's when they begin to coalesce in groups, when they begin to clot that they're dangerous. And one of the most dangerous clotting, as epitomized here, is white billionaires in their 50s and 60s. And the question I would have for Matthias Doepner, who is a role model of mine, I like him a lot. I think he represents a lot of wonderful attributes of masculinity, is if someone who just made a really good living, if this article was written about them and they weren't a billionaire with the influence of Bill Ackman, would you be calling for a review of this article? This is when it's another billionaire, when it's Musk, Dofner, and Ackman, they just have a dangerous tendency to agree with each other and support each other, distinct of what are the standard. If you look at the logic here, business insiders, they had every right to write an article like this. And what's happened is Bill Ackman has absolutely activated his army of publicists. He's gone to this positioning of anti-Semitism where you're like, okay. He's doing it himself on Twitter. It's just, he keeps changing his tune as if we can't read what

he wrote. I mean, the hypocrisy before he was all over gay about, he demanded attention because, this is Tim Noah's art, represented exceptional violation of academic standards. Now Ackman was saying, they all do it. You know what I mean? This is normal. So did he have a problem with it or has he changed his mind? And he's calling more attention to the issue.

I thought his wife handled it really well. Yeah, I was wrong. I need to clean it up. Shut the F up about this. And he doesn't have to. And Claudine Gay, Claudine Gay needs to clean up her stuff, but that's not, but that, it wasn't reason nor why she was fired. It wasn't reason to fire nor why they fired her. And he's created a total sideshow that, in my opinion, distracts from and diminishes the importance of the issues he had raised.

Yeah, I would agree. Anyway, it's creating a sideshow that just didn't need to be there. And also, when you're Matthias Doepfner and you own something like the Business Insider, I mean, you support it. You back it up. I mean, my God, if he wants to do a review of this, I'll send you about 100 articles on Politico and Business Insider that are much more suspect than this. Yeah, I agree. They've had they've had some stuff that's but, you know, this is a very solid every very good reporter came to. It's you know, it's a good article. It's a solid article. It's a solid article. Two things, last things on this is, you know, I agree with you. Bill Ackman has just been a bully his whole life, a bullying billionaire, essentially. And he just can't stop.

He's got something in his nature that he can't just stop. Well, he's an activist investor. I think it's unfair to call him a bully. Yeah, but he's beyond. I know a lot of them. I know a lot of them, and they're not quite like him. And nobody, by the way, I've talked to a lot of people on Wall Street, most people don't like him. He has a lot of detractors who find him irritating. Well, okay. I've never met the man, but let me also say, I know a lot of good people who are big fans of his. Yeah, I know. I don't think that's fair. But I'm just saying, he's a controversial figure. I think that's being kind.

He's a billionaire activist investor. That's just not where you go to be well-liked. I guess Carl Icahn's not that well-liked either. Carl Icahn? I know. I know. I know. They're all kind of a class.

Name a billionaire activist who's seen as warm and cuddly and everybody loves. I like Dan Loeb. He makes me laugh. And I don't agree with him almost anything. Dan is funny and a good guy. And not only that, and also Dan has mellowed. Dan has absolutely mellowed. Those poison pen letters he used to write.

I read Charles, oh, that one guy who was after Microsoft, I liked him. There's David Einhorn, who is a class actor. Einhorn, David Einhorn. David Einhorn, I like him. He is very good, super smart, class act. He's Sheryl Sandberg's cousin. Really? Also, Jeffrey Ubbin, a value act, developed a reputation for being kind of an operational activist and very smart.

Yeah. I think the best tweet on it was, everything I know about Bill Ackman I learned against my will. There's a lot of good tweets. And let me just say, last thing on Axel Springer, you know, we know Duffner and I know a lot of people at the organization and they're often, they're always like, Kara, you should come over here. Kara, why are you at Box? They're always saying, let's have a meeting. And now, guess what, boys? Kara's not having a meeting with you ever, ever, ever, ever, ever. Like, it's just, that was it. Our contract's coming up. We need to cut that out. I don't care. Daddy wants the cheddar. No. The wealthier I get, the more interesting I get.

No, we're not going there. We're not going there, Scott. That's a great firm. They screwed up here. They're allowed to screw up. Then they need to do a public apology. Anyways, and Matthias Doeffner is a fantastic role model. I don't agree with him on any of these, a little too. Yeah.

And Bill gets it mostly right, in my view. Anyways, glass half full. Not this one. Glass half full. No, in my view. Anyways, glass half full. Not this one. Glass half full. No, no, no. You defend rich white men. Anyway, by the way, Duffner, I think, is a billionaire. That's not fair. You got the- That's not fair.

Oh, I know that. I know that. I just defend rich white people, not just men. I defend rich white women as well. Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about Don Lemon's new project and X's attempt to be a contender in the online video space and take a listener mail question about tech and health care. When you picture an online scammer, what do you see? For the longest time, we have these images of somebody sitting crouched over their computer with a hoodie on, just kind of typing away in the middle of the night. And honestly, that's not what it is anymore. That's Ian Mitchell, a banker turned fraud fighter.

These days, online scams look more like crime syndicates than individual con artists. And they're making bank. Last year, scammers made off with more than $10 billion. It's mind-blowing to see the kind of infrastructure that's been built to facilitate scamming at scale. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of scam centers all around the world. These are very savvy business people. These are organized criminal rings. And so once we understand the magnitude of this problem, we can protect people better.

One challenge that fraud fighters like Ian face is that scam victims sometimes feel too ashamed to discuss what happened to them. But Ian says one of our best defenses is simple. We need to talk to each other. We need to have those awkward conversations around what do you do if you have text messages you don't recognize? What do you do if you start getting asked to send information that's more sensitive? Even my own father fell victim to a, thank goodness, a smaller dollar scam, but he fell victim and we have these conversations all the time. So we are all at risk and we all need to work together to protect each other. Learn more about how to protect yourself at vox.com slash zelle.

And when using digital payment platforms, remember to only send money to people you know and trust. Thumbtack presents the ins and outs of caring for your home. Out. Indecision. Overthinking. second-guessing every choice you make. In. Plans and guides that make it easy to get home projects done. Out. Beige on beige on beige. In. Knowing what to do, when to do it, and who to hire. Start caring for your home with confidence. Download Thumbtack today. Scott, we're back for our second big story. D. Lamont, down. Lemon is back and he says he's bigger, bolder, freer. He was pretty free. Lemon announced this week that he's starting a new show that will stream exclusively first on X.

Episodes will cover politics, culture, sports entertainment. This is part of X's larger push into video. In a blog post this week, the company declared itself a video-first platform. Dom was on our show during scot-free August this past summer. I asked him about his future plans. Let's listen to what he said. I think I want to do something next that scares the shit out of me. And I had a very successful career in cable news for a long time. I got to

do and say exactly what I wanted to. I have and had a very important voice that most people don't get to hear on that platform and still don't. And I expect that to continue, but I'm going to lean into the future of this medium. So it's a podcast that's going to be first on X, I guess, which Linda's been going around. I knew a lot about this because I talked to Don about it quite a bit. I had other suggestions for him. I suggested he do a deal with Ben Shapiro or do the Megyn Kelly route. I didn't think this was a good idea.

So that's just full disclosure. And I told him so. And I said, you know, get the money up front. I just don't think it's going to go well for you on this platform. But he did it. He's other things he's doing, Tucker Carlson's been there, but then moved to his own subscription-based platform. Scott, what do you think? I said he shouldn't do it. I thought there were lots of other choices. And again, if I'm recommending Ben Shapiro, who I think is abhorrent in many ways, but

he's quite a good media executive, that's the kind of outfit I thought he should have affiliated, you know, to create a great media property. That's the kind of outfit I thought he should have affiliated, you know, to create a great media property. I think you're right. So, first off, I think Don is a real talent. He is. And I think he's unafraid. He connects with people. He's really handsome, which I think is incredibly important in media, not as important in podcasting. which I think is incredibly important in media, not as important in podcasting. But if I were him,

I would have just started with a podcast with a Vox or whatever it's called, Daily Wire, and developed a following there because X sort of creates a halo that, okay, congratulations, you're now on the same platform as Alex Jones. And the guy who runs it is just sort of reckless and strange. And I don't, this reminds me a little bit of when Yahoo did a big deal with Katie Couric. It's not, it's not, I don't, this is not what I would have done if I was Don.

If I were Don, I would have figured out an outlet where I could still have a 30 or 60 minute show because he has a face for television. And I do think him in TV, he would still do well, even if he had to go to a quote unquote second tier network. And he should have done a great podcast. To kind of announce this, it's not just Don Lemon and what the topic is he going to talk about. It's Don Lemon and X. And X, in my view, is a bad umbrella brand. But on the whole, he's a big talent. And the thing I do like about this is that he is doing something. The key for all of these folks, and I've spoken to a lot of them recently as they're all trying to figure out their third or fourth act, is don't let perfect be the enemy of good. And that is just all trying to figure out their third or fourth act, is don't let perfect be the enemy of good. And that is just get onto the next thing and iterate.

Well, they're used to a different world because they're used to being coddled in the whole network system, right? In Katie's case, I actually did break that story. That's how I got to know Katie from that story. She got a ton of money up front, but then they buried her inside of Yahoo, never was on the front page, a whole bunch of things that story. That's how I got to know Katie from that story. She got a ton of money up front, but then they buried her inside of Yahoo, never was on the front page. A whole bunch of things that happened. Well, she only got 1% of what Marissa Mayer paired for Tumblr, who is arguably one of the worst CEOs in the history of tech. I think they paid Don a pile of money. I know they did pile of money up front, a pile. X paid Don Lemon? Yes. Really? Oh, I didn't know. Well, if that's the case, then I, you know, I think economic security is important.

He has a lot of money. He's still, you know, he got, when they fired him, I think they had to pay out his contract. So, I don't know. He could have had more money. I think, again, can't stand what Megyn Kelly's doing, but I get it. I get it. Oh, she's very good at what she does. Yes, that's what I mean. I'm like, uh-huh, I see what she's doing. And I talked to her before she did that. And I recommended, the other thing I recommended to Dawn is, if you want to stay on television, go to a big market like Los Angeles and be the anchor for the top TV station and start

to do interesting things. Those guys will never go local after being national. I get it, but you could do some interesting things. That's a great kind of place. Anyway, you know, whatever. I just don't think this was a good idea. But, you know, I guess if you got a pile of money, good for you, Don. X has the money to pay these kind of things?

I would think it actually would be. Yeah, I said get it up front, Don. Get like Bitcoin or something. Get it right up front. Yeah, just said get it up front, Don. Get like Bitcoin or something. Get it right up front. Yeah, just be mindful. If you get fired, you might not get the severance or health care you were contractually obligated to. Speaking of which, I was in San Francisco. There's going to be some lawsuits soon because he hasn't paid any of them what he owes them.

From top to bottom, the ex-Twitter employees. And he's using specious ideas of why. I forget what the one was. There was a couple different people told me different things they're accusing them of so they don't have to pay them. But it goes back to the same thing with this bullshit around, well, I'm a billionaire, so I can put a chill on all of media. And that is, if I'm a billionaire, I'm not subject to the nuisance of a contract. Yeah, I said I would pay you severance, but I've decided not to. Yeah, there's going to be some big lawsuits.

I would say I would pay your COBRA so you could have health insurance for you and your family. Well, guess what? You can't even reach someone in HR because I've already fired them. And go ahead, sue me because I'm a billionaire. Yeah, I have a PR team. I am optimized for conflict because I'm an activist investor and I am a billionaire

and I'm going to see Matthias Doepner at Davos next week. I'm going to fuck with you because I can. Yeah, I agree. It's the same bullshit. It is. And that is the government and media to a certain extent, we're here to push back on power. When it gets, which, and too much of it is concentrated, it corrupts the system and people.

What kind of billionaires would we be? What's that? What kind of billionaires would we be? Well, I'd like to find out. Yeah, I'd like to find out. Don't you think we'd be good billionaires? Maybe not. It's impossible, I guess.

Well, there's a lot of good billionaires. As a matter of fact, I would argue there are just as many good billionaires out there as as they get wealthier and more powerful, they use power judiciously and they recognize that they shouldn't abuse it. And, I mean, I always took this lesson from Warren. Warren Hellman was the first billionaire I ever met. And he taught me something that I have put into practice my entire career. I met him when I was in my 20s just out of business school. that I have put into practice my entire career. I met him when I was in my 20s, just out of business school. Hellman Friedman, huge, probably the iconic private equity firm on the West Coast.

And he was a mentor of mine. I used to meet with him once a month and have lunch. And I said, this firm is treated just really poorly and I'm so angry. And they signed a contract and they're not paying. And I asked him, can you recommend a law firm for me? And he's like, Scott, in my 50 years in business, I have never sued anybody. And he said, if someone doesn't treat you well, unless they really are abusing you, just don't do business with them again.

Yeah, they love to threaten lawsuits, these people constantly. I'm just waiting for mine, for my book. So let me get back to Don. Let me get back to this video strategy, for mine for my book. So let me get back to Dawn. Let me get back to this video strategy, because I get it. It's so abusive. It really is. But the video strategy that they have now, now ex-CEO Linda Yaccarino is at CES this week, getting asked why advertisers should put ads on X given the hateful content risk. She said that hate speech is an issue on every platform faces. that hate speech is an issue on every platform faces. Can they pivot to video? No, I said, you know, YouTube, Reddit, Instagram,

too, would like to have a word, Twitter. Like, they're so behind. They blew all their chances early. They have TikTok. I'm sorry, left out TikTok. Their competitors are superb and good at what they do. They have no chance. I don't see how they have any chance.

This is another, you know, bullshit thing that they aren't going to, like, a lot of the Twitter blue stuff is now falling off of Twitter blue, all their promises. So, I don't see them being able to pivot to this at all. Well, sort of back in the day, one of my investors was Tim Armstrong. Yeah, a really talented, nice man. And I don't know if it was him or his head of strategy said, what would you do if you were Yahoo? This was probably a decade ago. Oh, yeah, that's right.

He bought it, yeah. I mean, I would be the world's largest TV network and that your distribution platform is the internet. And word is out that video is big. And to your point, YouTube does a really good job. TikTok does a really good job. So, I'm not saying, yeah, it might be the right strategy, but it feels a little bit late. It feels like they don't have the capital, the engineering talent. I would say eight years, and they were there already eight years too late. So, I don't, yeah, it makes sense. But the notion that, you know, I just don't, if I were, we'll see. Look, Twitter X has to do something, right? They have to innovate. They

have to do something. They have to experiment. It does feel late. This is a media strategy by someone who doesn't know media, which would be Musk and Linda Iaccarino, who came from NBC. So this is her move. And she was not in programming or editorial or anything. She knows how to, you know, putting names like Tulsi Gabbard and Don Lemon out. She thinks it's going to, this is, she goes for the deal, the splashy deal at CES. That's not how it works anymore. It's people you don't know. It's interesting, like Mr. Beast, or it's just not this. It's just not this. Well, it's people who are native.

I will say, I watched Tulsi on Fox. Yeah, she's got some talent. She was good. And I think she's talented. I was shocked at how good she was on air. I think she's good. I would have done a deal. Maybe they just got bought.

They just threw so much money at them. And if that's the case, D Lemon, I take it back. Good for you. No, it's not good. It's not good for him. He could have made just... Megyn Kelly is making bank and she controls her destiny. I'm sorry.

Good point. Fair point. You don't need it. I was talking to someone about this and they, about my own career and they're like, why don't you come with us full time? I said, you can't afford me. You don't understand, but you know what I mean? Like I can do better by myself. Like you don't, things have changed and I'm not even very big. I mean, you, you stay at the nicest hotels in Manhattan. Oh wait, nevermind.

I mean you you stay at the nicest hotels in Manhattan oh wait never mind never mind you go through my closets and comment on my food I actually I actually love your apartment

I love it it's nice isn't it I love it I'm kidding it makes me happy to know you're there you know I love people's homes

I stayed with Brooke Hammerling in Los Angeles she has a beautiful home I don't like hotels I'm not a hotel liker but I love you I love hotels I don't like hotels. I'm not a hotel liker, but I love you. I love hotels.

I don't. Room service, call, scream at people, where are my eggs? I don't like it. I like your apartment quite a bit, and I don't know why I have an affection for it. I really do. And it's not because it's not that fancy.

It's just really lovely. It's the lovely feeling at your apartment. Anyway, it's got a nice vibe. It's got a good vibe. It's full of love in Cialis. It's full lovely feeling at your apartment. Anyway, it's got a nice vibe. It's got a good vibe. It's full of love in Cialis. It's full of love. Last thing is this world of online video changing. Then where do you think it's going?

I did interview Mark Thompson in an offsite for Warner Brothers. I don't know if it was off the record or not. I was never told it was, but it was a really interesting conversation. But he said, among other things, the conventional TV can no longer define us. Although he wasn't abandoning TV. That wasn't what he meant. What does that mean? Well, I think he's like, I think I was trying to get more out of him about it, actually, because it was, you know, I think he has to.

They're trying to figure out where, how to move that, where and how to move their stuff and control it. A little like, you know, he said it wasn't, one thing, I'm going to just say what he said. He said it wasn't a shift and lift from, or lift and shift from what he did at the New York Times, which was move it over to digital while keeping the print thing going. Because he thought video like tv distribution linear would be around for several decades and i would agree with him um and it's already there so why not take advantage of it um but that you have to sort of move everything uh think of it as a digital product over over time and he said we have to own it and not be subject to other people's platforms. It was interesting. He's a smart man. But what is the, what strategy, if you were to define, maybe you didn't get this information, how Mark Thompson is going, what is the strategy or the shift in programming or distribution that we'll see under Mark Thompson that we weren't going to see under Chris Lipp?

A subscription. A subscription. Subscription. That's my, she didn't say it, but there's no other way. Like what they did at the New York Times, some of it's free. You mean like CNN Plus? I don't get it. Why don't you? But I think some of the stuff, I think he's right. Some news does lend itself to television, fast news, fast moving. But I think the dependence on the platforms like Twitter or YouTube or whatever, the monetization's not there. And I think the Times was doing that too, just the way everybody gave all their content to Netflix and regretted it, I think, in a lot of

ways, and didn't own it themselves and take the cost of doing it. I think that's his inclination. I think he's correct, that it has to be a product that people want to buy, a news product that people want to buy from CNN. And some of it is free, some of it's not. I mean, he has to, you know, they could look at Netflix is now very successfully doing advertising. Amazon is about to make its ad tier default for its millions of Prime video subscribers. So, you know, there's a lot of ad stuff in a different and interesting way. So, they have some interesting opportunities and he's very canny. So, I don't know.

What would you do if you were running CNN? I would try and elegantly integrate it into kind of the max offering and always have a CNN bug where you could click it and they did, you know, they had six, 10, 20 minute loops where you could get your quick hit of news and then you could go vertical, quick hit of news around politics, around business. To me, it's the kind of becomes the ingredient news brand for the subscription service max i don't think it's a standalone subscription service i think it's it's the ingredient it's the nutra suite of max around news and because when you think about it the biggest players whether it's whether it's disney plus or net, what they lack is news. So it's the astrotame, or I don't know what you want to call it.

It's the intel inside of Max. I'll tell you, the most interesting thing he said offhand, which was this idea of you wake up and you're like, I want to know more about that. I want like an AI generator, you know, that their news done by people is then applied, you know, digitally and with AI, with generative AI, so that you start to get, they're exploring deals with OpenAI that was just reported yesterday. some kind of relationship with your news. It's not because Google laid off hundreds of jobs to voice activity assistance software. This is all going to be AI generated. And he had some ideas around that

and I thought that was smart. So he's working it out, but it's definitely a transition. David Zaslav was there. He was wearing his David Zaslav outfit and everything, but it was interesting. He's a really smart thinkaslav outfit and everything. But it was interesting. He's a really smart thinker. I think this is going to be a great year for CNN.

Yeah, I do too. Mark is very thoughtful. I really enjoy talking to him. And I can see he's working it out. I think he's working it out. It's not going to be unlike what happened at the New York Times using this amazing brand. And there are huge amounts of reporters to really bring to bear. There's monetization there. And as opposed to like Linda doing these one-off deals and

it's just not an editorial product, very similar to what happened at Yahoo. Anyway, let's pivot to a listener question. This question comes from Brian. Let's listen. Hi, Scott and Kara. My name is Brian, and I'm calling from Los Angeles. I'm a longtime listener of the show, and I appreciate the opportunity to ask a question. My question is on technology in healthcare. Specifically, where is it? There's a huge need for competition at the payer level, at the provider level, at the facility level. I see Amazon moving into primary care and prescriptions, but within the healthcare

system I work in, no one actually considers that competition. What about surgeries or inpatient care or health plans? I feel kind of like a conspiracy theorist telling people that tech is coming, tech is coming, tech is coming. But is it? I would love your thoughts. Thanks so much. Interesting. I mean, it's gone on for decades now. You know, Google and others were in the healthcare, the health vault, Microsoft, and they were always going to, this was always going to apply. And it, you know, now it's, now it's AI that's going to save us. It's going to know what you have by speaking into it and this and that. So, I don't know.

Scott, what do you think? I don't want to say I've given up on the notion that in the current construct, the technology is going to save us. So, it's been interesting living in the UK, contrasting or comparing and contrasting the approach to healthcare. And where I start is that it's almost impossible to fix a system where infant mortality and obesity and depression are greater, despite the fact we spend on average 12.5 grand per citizen, as opposed to Australia, Canada, and the UK that spend $6,500. It's literally arguably the most wasteful, biggest tax on the American economy is the U.S. healthcare system. And if you want evidence of that, just look at every hospital system, an insurance company that every year increases their earnings and their profits through regulatory capture. They have quietly weaponized government and have created a ton of moats

capture. They have quietly weaponized government and have created a ton of moats around any, even Google and Amazon can't crack this nut. Well, I think one medical, I'm going there tomorrow. I have some, I want it. I'm a member. I love one medical. We're talking about a pimple on the pimple of the elephant right now. And where I am is gigantic structural change over the long term. And that is, I'm an advocate for, if you look at the UK system, kind of what you call the, I don't want to call it the bottom 90, but 90th percentile and lower access NHS. And I've accessed NHS. The waits are longer. It can be frustrating. But there's something really wonderful knowing that if your wife gets lung cancer, it doesn't mean you're going to go bankrupt.

You know, that is six of the ten happiest countries in the world. There's socialist countries in northern Europe. And it's not only a function of what you have, but absence from having things taken away from you, specifically your dignity if you get sick. We do not have the absence from that fear in the United States. So the question is, how do you disrupt the traditional system? And where I am is the following, is that Medicare each year for the next 65 years should be lowered by a year until it's all Medicare. We need nationalized healthcare. The only way you're gonna get there,

Hillary couldn't do it, is to say, all right, every year we're gonna lower the age of Medicare until we do away with the most profitable, unearned regulatory capture profits in history, and that it's the privatization of healthcare. I don't want to say I've given up. There'll be some disruption, but we need massive structural change in America. It's not, you know, doctors hate it, patients hate it. It's really government doesn't really like it. It's really, you know, how we develop drugs is also, it's also, it's so antiquated.

I just find it's, whenever I feel sick, I feel frustrated because I don't even, I don't understand it. And I'm a very aggressive consumer, you know, in that. And there's hacks. We need better tax policy because we're so narcissistic or jingo, whatever you want to call it. I mean, Japan tries to figure out ways to incorporate exercise into people's lives. There's just, we don't want kids to eat well. Because guess what? Once they get obese, there's a ton of money in it for us.

Yeah. I call it the diabetes industrial complex. I wonder where you got that. Anyways, so there are too many economic incentives and too many people making too much money to pretend that which, by the way, the majority of Medicare recipients are pretty happy with. And also on a cost basis, it's pretty efficient. And every year for the next 65 years, we're going to lower it a year. We'll see. We don't think there's much tech in it. There's tech applied to it, and people have great hopes for gendered AI, Brian, but we've seen this before. So it really does take a bigger effort on behalf of the government and industry to make this turnaround. But yeah, there's only one payer. There's only one

if they all complain about it too. Anyway, we'll see. We'll see. By the way, next week, we're going to try something a little different with our listener mail. We'll be taking calls directly from you during our regular taping. A Little scary. That's right. You can ask us your questions to our faces. Well, over digital, so you can't touch us. I mean, as much as Scott might like that. Call 855-51-PIVOT to tell us what you might like to ask and leave your name, age, and where you're from and where we can reach you. We won't be able to fit everybody in, but our producers might be reaching out to you to join the show.

So get those questions in now. You can talk to Scott directly. All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions. As a Fizz member, you can look forward to free data, big savings on plans, and having your unused data roll over to the following month. Every month.

At Fizz, you always get more for your money. Terms and conditions for our different programs and policies apply. Details at Fizz.ca. Okay, Scott, let's hear a prediction. So I'm going to do a quick prediction, and then I want to take license here and talk about a win or something that really moved me this week. My prediction is that Coinbase is the AOL of, you know, I said it. The stock's up. I mean, the stock has just skyrocketed.

I think it's overvalued. I think it's a good firm that's well run. I think it has a role to play and they'll find new ways. But it's just it's like AOL. It's going to dramatically shed a ton of value, I think, over the next few years, because it's been the on-ramp into crypto and people no longer need a safe, you've got mail kind of friendly place to buy crypto. So occasionally you see something or a piece of content that inspires you. And I bond with my kids over media. I send

them Tom Petty, which they don't listen to. And they send me rap that I don't get. But anyways, we watch full shows together. I'm watching with my 13 year old. Have you seen The Last of Us? Yeah, parts of it. Like it's not, it hasn't caught on with me yet, but that one with the gays, I saw the gays one.

You're stealing my thunder. So I have no interest in anything around the zombie apocalypse. It's a genre that has no interest for me. I haven't watched a single episode of The Walking Dead, nor will I ever. But my son wanted to watch The Last of Us. And I'm like, oh, God, here we go again. Episode one. I think Pedro Pascal is a leading man.

I love him. I loved him in Narcos. He's the best guy with a mask on in The Mandalorian. Episode three, which you just referenced, is so moving and such a great piece of art. And it's about, I won't give it away, but it's about a survivalist slash prepper played by Nick Offerman from Parks and Rec. And then. But the story is about he helps protect somebody and he falls in love. And it's just the story of these two men. And the reason why, it was such a nice moment for my son and I because we were talking about it afterwards.

And the thing I take from it, I've been thinking a lot about masculinity. I'm trying to write a book on it. And here you had a guy who brings what Richard Reeves, who's sort of my Yoda around this stuff and is able to kind of articulate the things I'm feeling and seeing. But he talks about the notion of men and their need to create surplus value. What do we mean by that?

That when you become a man, it isn't about reading from some religious scripture or having sex or turning 18 or getting a job, that when you become a man is when you start adding surplus value. And as a boy, your return on investment is negative. People give you love, they give you resources, they give you attention, they spoil you. And quite frankly, other than the people who love you, you don't add a lot back to society. And some people never grow out of that. Some people just for their whole lives take more than they return. And his notion is, and I love this, that what it means to be a man

is you add surplus value, that the time, the attention, and the resources you take in, that you are so skilled and you acquire so many strengths and competences that you produce more than you consume. You add surplus value. And I absolutely love that as a metric. And here's this guy, this prepper and the survivalist who is so talented, and obviously, you know, those politics are a little bit crazy, but this guy is so talented, not only can he put up,

create a compound with electrified fences that zap the zombies, but he raises chickens, he's a great cook, he's figured out a way to maintain running hot water in the middle of a zombie. He's so talented. But the surplus value is that he finds someone to protect and to love. And I absolutely love that notion. It's a very, it's a really good show. Let me, may I recommend another one to, this is a, it's a gay love story really, but is Sanjana Pero on, did you ever see that? I didn't. Please, please avail yourself to that. And it's in a, it's got a very similar vibe

and it's about two women and they're in a virtual reality setting. And I think you will weep, weep giant tears. I love the idea of this notion of defining manhood and masculinity as surplus value. And then I thought this represented that. And this is the conversation I was having with my 13-year-old. I'm like, this is what men do. They develop the skills and they acquire the strength such that they can protect and love others. And there's this great line at the end, you know, this guy Nick Offerman says at the very end of it, and I won't spoil the end of it, and he says, you gave me purpose. And that's, I love that. I'm like, that's what it means to be a man.

You find purpose, and your purpose is to protect others. I just thought it was wonderful. Anyways, my win, episode three, season one, Last of Us. I'm surprised you haven't seen it. It's so funny because for a while, when it appeared, people went crazy for it. May I ask you a question? Yes. Doesn't that apply to women?

Masculinity is not the domain. Right. Do you want me to answer you? Yeah, I'm going to. Let me finish. Okay. Aren't women supposed to protect and add at the same time? Masculinity and femininity are social constructs that we invent.

They are not the domain of people born as men and women. However, people born as men and people born as women have instinctual predilections and competences that oftentimes lend them towards more feminine or more masculine attributes. I believe femininity is more about nurturing and more about being loving and also protecting. And I think a lot of women demonstrate wonderful masculine attributes. And I think a lot of men, also the men I'm usually attracted to as friends, can indicate and represent wonderful feminine attributes. But I think masculinity, which typically, typically people born as men have an easier time embracing is, again, needs redefinition. It needs a modern aspirational definition because unfortunately right now, anything that is seen as masculine is conflated with toxicity, and that's bullshit. It's not sequestered from women, nor is femininity sequestered from men. We need to – we absolutely appreciate femininity sequestered from men. We absolutely appreciate femininity. I would argue it's being more nurturing, more loving, more graceful, less prone to judgment. Maybe we need new words.

Maybe we need new words. I'm up for it, sister, because we need a better dialogue around this stuff. We need to respect the fact that most people, 90 to 95% of people, identify as binary, and the attributes and competences and feelings and instincts they feel are wonderful. And that doesn't mean it's sequestered from the other gender. You know, I think you demonstrate a lot of wonderful masculine attributes. I'd like to believe I demonstrate a lot of wonderful feminine attributes. Mm-hmm. You do.

But we can celebrate both those things. Need new words. Need new words. Anyway, that's a good one. It's a great show. You should see it. But I promise you if you watch Black Mirror, that San Junipero, it'll make your heart sing. It's beautiful.

Same way. Black Mirror. Can you say it again? Black Mirror, San Junipero. Yep. Black Mirror, San Junipero. It's very tech-focused, too, which is interesting, and it's really cool. Anyway, we'll be back next week.

Read us out, Scott. Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie and her Todd engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Brose and Neil Saverio. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com slash pod. We'll be back next week

for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Season one, episode three, The Last of Us.