Pivot - Dorsey donates 28% of his wealth to COVID-19, Zoom as the poster child for tech privacy and the video-game industry as Amazon enters the production game

Episode Date: April 10, 2020

Kara and Scott talk about Jack Dorsey's $1 billion donation to fight COVID-19, as well as other tech billionaire's contributions to fight the virus. They think that those contributions can't fill the ...void of a well funded government through tax dollars. They give an update on Zoom's privacy issues as the company takes on Alex Stamos, Facebook's former security chief. In Listener Mail, Kara and Scott get a question about the massive video game industry as Amazon starts producing its own video games. In predictions, Scott thinks the World Health Organization will be in the Trump administration's cross hairs in the weeks to come. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Starting point is 00:01:12 of the Bose Corporation. Hi everyone, this is Pivot from the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher. And I'm Scott Galloway. And I just want to point out that your recent announcement that UTA has picked you up as a client is clearly just a naked attempt for them to get closer to the dog. You are being used. You are being used. It is unfair. UTA, by the way, so you have UTA, take cranberry pills to clear that right up.
Starting point is 00:01:46 Listen to me. Get it? I got it. Get it? You know, as someone who has had urinary tract infections many times, they don't work. You have to go right to the antibiotics just so you know. Listen to me. In every single meeting, they didn't mention you once. No, they did. They love Pivot. They think it's great. They did. They did.
Starting point is 00:02:02 They didn't. They didn't. So you're with UTA. I'm with WME. I hope that they bring this same sense of, by the way, I don't know how they got you as a client. You know how they got me as a client? How? This guy, David Werschafter, who's a big, you know, is a baller at WME, showed up in my office and took me in and said, we want to represent you. And I said, I'm not an academic. I'm not interested in representation. And he looked at me and he said, we think you are a genius. And you know what I said? You know what I said? Sign me up. You're hired. You're hired. You, my friend, have clear
Starting point is 00:02:36 insight that the rest of the world. Oh, it was so nakedly pandering and it was so effective. I think you're a genius you're so smart he just literally said trump you're like donald trump you need constant praise there's a whole it's so effective the guy literally he just sat down he goes we think you're a genius i'm like i like the cut of your job i like the cut of your job they are paid i'm like a terror as someone because i'm i dig into the details and i drive oh not me not me. You're a genius. You're hired. I'm a genius. You're hired.
Starting point is 00:03:06 I am like on their asses. I did due diligence on all of the people who approached me. So who's your agent? Let's do some inside baseball. Who's your actual agent? I have several. I have many. I have a team.
Starting point is 00:03:17 I have a team. Yeah, right. Some for scripted, some for unscripted, some for speaking, some for thought leadership. I have a thought leadership person. I've got a social media person. I've got a book agent. I've got a podcast agent. I've got it all.
Starting point is 00:03:34 So an agent walks into a bar and says, hey, I'm an agent. And the woman at the bar says, really, who do you represent? And he says, Kara Swisher. And the woman says, okay, nice to meet you. Oh, God. Thanks. No, thank you. That's pretty hard to sell that as compelling. Honey, we signed Kara Swisher today. I did say, listen, you know what? It got a lot of attention. You'll see. Just wait till all the other shoes drop. We turned away Al Pacino, but we've signed up the jungle cat. Listen, you have no idea what's about to happen to you in your world, Scott. Listen to me.
Starting point is 00:04:04 Listen, I said a month ago that I would never, a couple months ago, that I would never hire an agent. And now I have. So I have to say I was wrong. Greatness is in the agency of others. No doubt about it. I changed my mind. I needed some help. So that's what I did.
Starting point is 00:04:18 I reached out for help. We all need to reach out for help, Scott. Just so you know, in general. But anyway, let's move along from this the agent thing um we're gonna we're gonna there's all kinds of things um we're we're there's so many things like there's the unemployment claims obviously are huge this week because of coronavirus which we're going to talk about a little bit we're talking about zoom a little bit we're going to talk about all kinds of things um and but one thing I want to note that women-led countries seem to be flattening
Starting point is 00:04:45 the curve better than other countries. That's one. I find that sexist. I'm triggered. New Zealand, Germany, they have the most successful, just pointing it out. Also some states, the same thing. Bernie Sanders dropped out of the race. We have that to discuss. And also Gavin Newsom has become really dreamy, you know, in a lot of ways. I'm surprised you haven't glommed onto him as the next thing, as the next big thing. So, I have a story. Back in the, when was that? The early 90s, when I started believing I was going to be rich from internet companies I was starting, I thought, well, if I'm going to be wealthy, I'm a white guy, and I have outdoor plumbing, which means I should run for office. So I started going
Starting point is 00:05:25 to all these. I joined the Potrero Hill Democratic Club, which, by the way, a quick shout out to them. They're just fucking crazy, and I don't especially hope any of them are doing really well. But anyways, quick shout out to the Potrero Hill Democratic Club. And I started going to, I started meeting with political consultants, and I thought, am I going to run for Congress? And I thought, I know, I'll run for supervisor. Oh, really? And I met this young, this guy who's like 6'4 and handsome, and he was also running for supervisor, was supervisor. And his name was Gavin Newsom. I introduced myself, and I started talking to him. And I was with my close friend, Lee Lotus. And we walked out of the room, and I'm like, I have absolutely no chance. Like if that guy is the guy, if that's the person who's supervisor in San Francisco, I have no business ever even filling out a registration form. And then he became mayor, obviously.
Starting point is 00:06:14 And then he is big. I think his breakout moment though was actually when he decided to defy federal law and start marrying same-sex people. Yes, you know what? Let me just say. That was a big moment for him. I was within that group because they called me and my partner at the time to get married because they wanted more people to come down who were better known and to have pictures and good pictures. They have agents that are represented by UTA? No, there's no agents.
Starting point is 00:06:39 They just called. And so one of the things that was, you know, we were getting married anyway, but it was really an interesting time. And let me just say, Gavin, since, you know, we were getting married anyway, but it was really an interesting time. And let me just say, Gavin, since, you know, everyone has their criticism about various people, that moment to me was such an important moment from a leadership perspective, political leadership. He got killed for doing that, like politically. He was on the upswing. And a very prominent political person said to me, like, that it was a mistake what he did and everything else and and he and they said you know maybe it's america's just not ready for gay marriage and i said it's called leadership and you should learn how to do it because he does and i he did
Starting point is 00:07:15 it again here in california i'm not surprised that he's doing such a good job um you know there's a lot of controversy he had some personal problems a drinking problem and everything else that he's talked about but uh well let's gloss over that. He was banging his campaign manager's wife. And by the way, by the way, Kara, that's a moving story. One quick question. Did he preside over your divorce? No. So inappropriate. So inappropriate. No. Well- I like your ex. Me and your ex bonded. I like her. Yeah, she's great. We're having Easter on Sunday. Lesbians get along. Don't even try to create problems because we lesbians get along.
Starting point is 00:07:46 Well, you're talking about you, Hannity, and Lindsey Graham? You guys are all a thruple now? He's not a lesbian. You're all a thruple? Oh, man. He would not survive at a lesbian bar
Starting point is 00:07:54 for even five seconds. Hannity would, of course. Anyway, listen to me. We're going to talk. We're going to move along from my personal life. Anyway, Gavin Newsom's great, and I think a lot of him.
Starting point is 00:08:03 By the way, my brother was an anesthesiologist when he was for his kids for his wife he has like 103 kids how's your brother doing how is dark good we may have to bring him back to talk about what's happening he said the the moves by uh uh governor newsom and mayor breed in san francisco has created a real flattening of that curve and he was really he just was complimentary looks good yeah because he's like the early they i think mayor breed was the earliest mayor to do something about it and so he's like this it's made the world of difference and you know of course that's going to be seized upon like look it wasn't that bad but these moves early by some of these uh people early moves to
Starting point is 00:08:38 to to let it spread out has been really a life saving well he had the he had the gangster move from a communication strategy, and that is he announced that California had secured, I think, 150 million masks. 200 million, yeah. Excuse me, 200 million. But the way he positioned it, which was genius and a wonderful positioning, was he said, we've secured this for California, but more than that, we've secured these masks for America. Right. And he said the California economy, which I think on its own is the fifth or sixth largest economy in the world. Nation state.
Starting point is 00:09:07 A nation state in the world has said, okay, we're in this together and we're using our capital, we're using our resourcefulness, we're using our kind of culture of innovation to do what the federal government has been unable to do. Yeah. And then to secure protective equipment for America and not create
Starting point is 00:09:25 this Hunger Games, eBay-like bullshit. If you don't like me, okay, DeSantis in Florida, you get more ventilators in Cuomo because you like me. So he's acting, you know, him and Trump walk into a bar, one acts presidential, the other is president, you know. So he's setting himself up really well. I think he's done a fantastic job. 100%.
Starting point is 00:09:47 100%. And I would gladly vote for him. He'd be amazing. Sort of like the president of New York and the president of California, which is interesting. Which is Cuomo. Anyway, but let's talk. Speaking of great moves, Jack Dorsey pledged a billion dollars to fight COVID-19. That's the biggest financial contribution we've seen from a tech CEO so far. He's obviously not the only one putting out resources. Mark Benioff, one of the
Starting point is 00:10:08 things he's doing is, if you notice, he's taking pictures of him delivering a lot of these supplies to healthcare workers. And one person close to him told me he's doing it just so that it doesn't get seized by the government and it can get directly into the hands of people who need it. But anyway, the question is, are we depending too much on the ultra wealthy to get us out of public health crisis? Even though a lot of this stuff has been amazing, Dorsey announced he is putting 28% of his wealth in the form of shares of his company Square into an LLC called Start Small. He says the expenditures will be recorded in an open Google document. The first donation went to America's Food Fund, according to Spreadsheet. Meanwhile, Apple has
Starting point is 00:10:42 donated 20 million masks. Tim Cook said there's a company-wide effort to bring together product designers, engineers, operations, packaging teams, and suppliers to design, produce, and ship face shields for health workers, which will probably be stunningly beautiful. Bill Gates says his foundation will spend billions to fund the construction of factories. This is critically important for developing promising vaccines to combat COVID-19, and Zuckerberg donated $25 million in the effort. That's a lot less. So Teddy Schlieffer, a Recode reporter, said these efforts often imbued with unaccountable, untransparent, undemocratic influence. What does it mean? And why does the Square stock versus Twitter stock, Scott? And what do you think of this? Teddy had a great
Starting point is 00:11:20 story about that two things can exist at once, that these are good things. And at the same time, should we be relying on rich people to pull us out of the drink when the government should be doing it? What do you think? Yeah, when the rich guy on the block shows up with the best hose to put out your fire, it doesn't mean, it's not saying he's not a wonderful man, but what it says is we need to fund the fire department. And when you're dependent upon wealthy people with big hoses, I don't know where I got the hose metaphor, but. All right. I like it.
Starting point is 00:11:47 Well, look, billionaires are, a lot of billionaires, and especially around tech leadership, are stepping into the void here. And whether it's Bill Gates, who's become kind of, other than Dr. Fauci, the voice of sort of credibility and reason here. Whether it's Tim Cook and his masks. Whether it's Jack Dorsey and kind of post-corona philanthropy, tech billionaires are sort of stepping into this void. The fear is that there's two things here. There's philanthropy, and philanthropy is generosity and giving without any sense or any expectation of anything in return. And then there's what I would call going in and buying Chanel Rouge Allure Velvet Luminous Matte Lip Color
Starting point is 00:12:25 in La Ramonesque. And that's $28. And you spend some money to make you look better. And I think a lot of this philanthropy is not philanthropy. It's lipstick. I mean, let's think about the scale here. So, one of the wonderful things about this reporting is they've not only reported the number, they've reported the percentage of his wealth. And any individual who gives 28% of their wealth, which is what Jack Dorsey is doing, should be commended for giving, real giving hurts. You noted that before, the amount that you should give the amount. Let's talk about this. When Jeff Bezos gives a million dollars to defend wildlife post the wildfires in Australia, it's the equivalent of the average household giving approximately somewhere between $2 and $6 to that effort. When you tip somebody, when you go to the
Starting point is 00:13:11 Olive Garden and you have a nice dinner, as one does at the Olive Garden with you and your family, and you say you spent $100 and you're feeling like a baller, and you give a 20% tip that it's $20, that's the equivalent of Jeff Bezos giving, say that family has a million dollars in assets, they're four times as wealthy as the average household, that's the equivalent of Jeff Bezos to leaving a $3 million tip. So when individuals, we need to start reporting what percentage of their wealth because we think, well, isn't that wonderful? But the bottom line is if you're putting out a press release to give the equivalent of $6 away of your household total net worth, does it really warrant a press release? I would love to see a certain IRS metric that says just as we evaluate different types of income, let's evaluate different types of philanthropy.
Starting point is 00:13:55 And if it's less than 0.1% of your net income and you're putting out press releases, it shouldn't be tax deductible. So there's philanthropy and then there's lipstick. And in this instance, I think Mr. Dorsey, this is clearly philanthropy. Anyone who gives away 28 percent. What a lot of these tech people are doing, though, when they give away 0.01 percent of their net worth, it's not philanthropy, it's lipstick. Well, it's also one of the things that, and Teddy pointed out, I think this line was really great. He goes, but two things can be true at once. Tech billionaires can be doing good while simultaneously revealing their power and entrenching it for the long haul. As the government struggles and safety net
Starting point is 00:14:28 crumbles, tech billionaires are reaching their apex of their influence, influence that may not recede once so easily when we do manage to survive this pandemic, which I think was a really good point. It's like, you think about Rockefeller during the Great Depression or Carnegie and others. This is not something new, by the way. These just happen to be the people with the money. And Teddy also wrote a follow story about the 10 other tech titans with the power to shape this response, Jack Dorsey being one of them,
Starting point is 00:14:54 Bill Gates, you had mentioned, but also Larry Ellison, who's been sort of wandering around the White House in some way inside of Trump's brain, Mark Benioff, Lorraine Powell Jobs, Larry Page and Sergey Brin, Jeff Bezos, Steve Ballmer, Michael Dell, Eric Schmidt, Dustin Moskowitz, who was a Facebook executive. So they do have enormous resources. And so the question is how to put them to use without
Starting point is 00:15:19 giving them enormous power. And I think that's hard in our country. Yeah, but on an individual level, it's wonderful. Taken as a trend, it's dangerous. Because what you have here, let's look at Jack Dorsey. Again, numbers are, they are informative, but they're not, they don't, it's hard to get a sense of proportion around a number. And just, again, let's go back to proportions. Jack Dorsey has donated a billion dollars for aid post-corona, and that's wonderful. Okay, so if every individual, if every employee at Pinterest, they have 2,000 people. If every employee at Snap, they have 2,800. If either of those firms, if every employee gave a billion dollars to try and restart
Starting point is 00:16:02 the economy, it would still not be as great as the bailout, as the rescue package. Governments have to be funded well enough such that they can make these sort of tectonic moves. No amount of billion-dollar donations is going to help us around income inequality or climate change or figuring out a way to fund the agencies we need to ensure this pandemic, this type of pandemic doesn't relapse. So, to a certain extent, it's a bit of cold comfort. And it also, when we're dependent upon guys in a midlife crisis instead of NASA to put us on Mars, when we get hope from these weird projects from eccentric billionaires saying they're going to cure death, it's again a very
Starting point is 00:16:50 dangerous reflection that we're no longer hand in hand. We're finding idols and individuals, and we're being atomized by each other such that we're trying to find idols as opposed to a comity of man and joining hands around what is the greatest organization in the history of mankind, and that's the U.S. government. And we keep defunding the U.S. government. Well, it's interesting. I think it's dangerous, actually. Yana, Gerdan talks about this all the time,
Starting point is 00:17:15 that we should just tax them. But what's interesting, what you said, there was, in Teddy's story, you quoted David Callahan, who has a newsletter called Inside Philanthropy, and he's prominent. He writes a lot about the subject. If anyone can afford to give more in response to the pandemic, it's the richest of the rich
Starting point is 00:17:30 with far greater assets than private foundations. In recent years, though, giving by billionaire donors has amounted only a tiny sliver of their wealth, and many billionaires barely give at all. There are no signs that this crisis will change that. So I think, like I said, there can be two things at once. These things that Mark is doing, what Mark Benioff is doing, or Jack is doing,
Starting point is 00:17:48 are very important signs that they do this. But you're right. The government really is the biggest gangster among these people, although this is unprecedented. This is like 10 Rockefellers, like, essentially.
Starting point is 00:18:02 Yeah, but the numbers, their wealth is unprecedented. Unprecedented. It's just, I mean, okay, so let Yeah, but the numbers, their wealth is unprecedented. It's not, it's just, I mean, okay, so let's talk about Dorsey. A billion dollars, 28% of his net worth. That's a one, there's just no getting around it. This is wonderful. This is a testament to his character and his code as a person. Let's just full stop. Now, but when you're worth $4 billion, giving away a billion, it's just not going to impact your lifestyle. I'm not going to say it's not giving, but he's not doing anything that's going to get in the way of his jet or his lifestyle.
Starting point is 00:18:33 He don't need it. You're saying he don't need it. It just doesn't in any way impact his lifestyle. The average household in the U.S., the average white household is worth $220,000. The average black or Latino household is worth about $50,000 or $60,000. When they give $100, it changes the way they live their lives. So philanthropy comes in different shades. The other thing is that these tech billionaires, they want something in return. So the Twitter PR folks have been hard at work talking about putting out tons of press releases. I think anytime you put a press release out for your philanthropy, it should immediately not become tax deductible. And there's all of a sudden,
Starting point is 00:19:09 I'm getting about, people are tweeting at me because I've been saying that we shouldn't have a part-time CEO moving to Africa, that Jack should step down. And people are tweeting at me saying, how do you feel now? And I'm like, I feel exactly the fucking same. Giving a billion dollars. I was like, why do you even wonder? Of course you feel the same. Giving a billion dollars to post-corona aid is a wonderful thing, but Mother Teresa shouldn't be the co-CEO of Twitter either. It has nothing to do with being a good fiduciary for shareholder value. It doesn't in any way make him a better product manager that's going to figure out a way to monetize the 28% incremental increase in traffic that they've garnered. I do like that you stick by your—
Starting point is 00:19:43 Well, everyone is tweeting at me saying, well, what do you think now? Should he step down as CEO? And I'm like, abso-fucking-lutely, what does this have to do with anything? Doubling down. Thanks, Jack. But you see my point. This has nothing to do with your ability to serve as a good fiduciary for Twitter shareholders who have been repeatedly kicked in the nuts for the last five years,
Starting point is 00:20:01 wherever you have a self-replacement platform, Skyrocket. It certainly does. That's the problem. It has a certainly does. That's the problem. It has a halo effect. That's the problem. Yeah. Is all of a sudden he no longer is subject to the same scrutiny as every other CEO
Starting point is 00:20:12 because unlike most CEOs, he has a billion dollars to give away. So you want to like him. So these guys wrap themselves in a philanthropic blanket. I think the question is, are these donations the new tax? Like instead of taxing them, this is how they're taxed.
Starting point is 00:20:26 Yeah, but it's not a tax because they get to put their names on shit and they get to decide what they get to do. Yeah, that's true. It's not, I mean, a tax, the very definition of tax is that you are redistributing income and you don't get to decide where it goes.
Starting point is 00:20:38 If it goes to the Sixth Fleet in the Gulf and you're against wars in the Middle East, too damn bad. You have signed up. You have joined hands with the other 350 million Americans and elect somebody different. To a certain extent, this type of philanthropy is bypassing our democracy and our elections
Starting point is 00:20:55 and our ability to make big decisions because now these guys who make these, and they are guys, let's be honest, they're all dudes, other than Lauren Powell Jobs buying the Atlantic, it's basically dudes. So essentially, these guys are doing an unrun around the government, around public policy, around foreign policy. So every individual effort is a good thing. On the whole, this reflects an underlying sickness. We need to fund our governments. I'm going to put out one thing, though, I do think, in some cases when the government doesn't
Starting point is 00:21:22 act, I do like that Bill Gates is building these factories because the government's not doing it like you know and maybe he'll make money you know i think we need to have them built now instead of arguing about it and so i'm fine with his foundation spending billions of dollars to fund the construction of these factories like again but you're right you're sort of giving in to like now he's a different case he's all his money is going away. It's getting given away. And it's an interesting thing that he's doing. I think he really genuinely is engaged on this topic and has been for many years on the pandemic issues and vaccines and health care. But in that case, what do you do? Like, the government isn't building these factories or isn't thinking ahead, and he is.
Starting point is 00:22:01 So, again, it's a very, as Teddy said, you can think two opposing thoughts in your head at the very same time. Do we want to employ the same standards in a progressive tax structure where billionaires in the 60s paid 40% of their taxes? In the 70s, they paid 60%. Now they pay 21%. And do we want to create the void that they need to step into? Or do we want to close the void and decide that it's NASA, it's the CDC that put people on Mars and that are our front lines of defense against these pandemics? Because if you want to talk about a good ROI, the CDC gets about $11 billion. Well, what if we had taxed big tech
Starting point is 00:22:54 an incremental 10% and then taken 10% of that and funded the CDC to the tune of $50 or $100 billion? Yeah. Would we be talking about 50 to 80% of people going on ventilators die? Would we be talking about the fact that despite the fact we had more heads up here, that we've handled this the worst? And everybody wants a fucking Hallmark Channel movie about our unique American exceptionalism
Starting point is 00:23:16 and how we've inspired by how people are responding. There's just no getting around this. We fucked up big time here. And if we had not made proactive, if we had made more forward-leaning investments, if we had been less narcissistic, if we hadn't defunded the CDC, less people would be dead. And we have to face those hard truths. And that all goes back to the system where we've decided the new idols and the new kind of arbiters of truth and vision moving forward are tech billionaires or people who divide us like the current president. And that shit has just got to stop, Kara. It's got to stop. It's got to stop. I love this, Scott. I like this whole thing. I think
Starting point is 00:23:53 you should run for supervisor in San Francisco now. I feel like I'm up for it. The problem is there's Gavin Newsom. He's moved on to bigger things. You can get in there. You can get in. I don't see anyone quite as handsome with him on the supervisor thing. I don't recall. I used to party with the lieutenant governor in business school. I like your thinking. I agree with you, but it's going to be harder for you and I to attack, not attack, to criticize
Starting point is 00:24:16 tech leaders. Oh, we'll try. They're on a redemption tour. They're going for their redemption tour, and that's what they, of course, that's what they're doing. Anyway, we're going to take a quick break. We'll be back with one more big story and listeners. I think similar to that silent retreat, when he gives a billion dollars away, he should keep it to himself and not put out press releases. All right, we'll be right back. Fox Creative.
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Starting point is 00:26:54 Learn more at www.nissanusa.com slash 2025 dash kicks. Available feature, Bose is a registered trademark of the Bose Corporation. Okay, Scott, we're back. I want to do some quick updates about what's going on with Zoom's privacy issues. We've been contacted by the company. They thought we did not understand them properly. But we're going to have, hopefully, the CEO on Recode Decode and other.
Starting point is 00:27:28 We're going to talk about it more because a lot of people are still using this and there's still these privacy issues. But Zoom brought on Alex Stamos, someone I know very well. He's a former chief of security for Facebook. He previously worked for Yahoo as an advisor to improve their privacy and security. They've quickly added some stuff to the app, for sure, around security. It's very prominently placed. Alex Stamos left Facebook in 2018 over the company's response to the troubles around the data security election interference. Tuesday's show, we talked about the University of Toronto's research. I found that many of their videos have problems with all kinds of issues of security and everything
Starting point is 00:27:59 else, and that they had some service in China. Zoom reached out to us in email to clarify a few things in their opinion in the blog post. They responded on the ramp up in China. We added server capacity and deployed it quickly, starting in China when the outbreak began. In that process, we failed to fully implement our usual geofencing best practices. We have since corrected this. And on the Washington Post story about meetings being recorded, Zoom meetings are only recorded at the host choice, either locally or on the host machine or in the Zoom cloud. So they're moving. The CEO, Eric Yan, is moving and they're trying to do things.
Starting point is 00:28:31 But, you know, people are still worried. Brian Chen wrote a great story in the New York Times. A lot of people feel that, you know, about these issues and how you shouldn't use Zoom and was recommending WebEx and some others, Microsoft Teams, FaceTime, and things like that. But, you know, I think they're trying—this is a company that's trying hard to fix things, but sort of got caught sort of flat-footed, and some of their weaknesses have been shown rather quickly through the heavy usage. What do you think of these responses? I think they've gotten mostly right. He's acknowledged the problem.
Starting point is 00:29:03 He, the top guy, is taking responsibility, And I think they're attempting to overcorrect. But back to the notion of a single data point reflects a more dangerous trend, and that is they've said publicly, there's just no way we could have anticipated this happening. We didn't see this coming. We didn't see this coming. But they see their earnings calls coming. They see their 13, they see their defilings companies so they can sell stock. They see every increase in daily active users coming and they put out press releases. Anything that might involve them getting liquidity and getting money into their hands and getting any sort of transfer of wealth from shareholders into their pockets, they see that shit coming for miles. But anything that might do damage to the Commonwealth of Privacy, they don't see coming. And the reason they don't see it coming is that our government has failed.
Starting point is 00:29:53 In the sense that, and by the way, I'm not suggesting Zoom should be the poster child here. It should be Facebook. But when they don't see the GRU coming, they should be fined not $5 billion, but 1, 5, 10, 30 percent of the market capitalization. And then all of a sudden, they're going to start to see this shit. They're going to start to anticipate it. Because right now, the incentives aren't to anticipate it.
Starting point is 00:30:16 The incentives are to ignore it. The incentives are to turn away from it and hope that, I mean, even in their mission, it says they're trying to provide frictionless communication. And no one raised their hand and said, all right, that's a great tagline. That's going to get us a greater multiple on revenues. But are there downsides to the term and the gestalt of frictionless and technology? Haven't we seen that frictionless equals security risks? And they're saying, well, but we don't get paid for that kind of consternation. And what we need to do is start paying them to have that kind of forward-looking insecurity or fears.
Starting point is 00:31:07 the shit out of companies that don't forward look into this type of friction or this type of risk they're presenting when they don't put in place certain security measures. So, we need to start paying the people who do pay attention by finding the shit out of the companies that don't. And I hate to say Zoom should be a poster child here. It should have been Facebook. But somebody's got to step in and make it worthwhile to make the investments to ensure that a fifth grade class doesn't get bombed by pornographers that start saying aggressive, violent things. And it's also not just that. It's that these technologies, my son was telling me about, like, other kids in his class gave the links, you know, it's giving out the, someone was like, oh, it's just stupid people giving out links, but it's, it's designed to not protect, like it should, it should know that
Starting point is 00:31:48 people might do that, for example. And my son was telling kids, gave other kids from other schools and they came in and they made up all kinds of names. One of, you know, like, like Mo Lester, like that kind of things, like they signed him with those names and they all had a big old laugh about it. Or there was a couple of, you you know those dumb names that you make up and things like that and um and so you know they should anticipate human behavior in the design of their whatever they're making and that's one two when things like this happen and i do think they've responded pretty well zoom has done a good job and i think it's been not victim-y. It's been very much, we made a mistake. That one quote about them, this is what happened in China. But in the first
Starting point is 00:32:30 place, when they did it, they should have thought about it. That's the anticipation of consequences. And what they're trying to do is protect frictionless more than anything. And that's the problem, is that they want to protect the one thing that's the selling point, which is that it's easy to use. And easy to use often means insecure and not private. So I would argue that Eric Yuan deciding to hire Alex Stamos is a really strong move. It's probably more optics. I don't know. I mean, you know, it's... No, Alex gets in there. You know, what if Alex leaves? That's not a... Alex has been known to leave. He left Yahoo when Bruce Samir wasn't doing enough around it. So it's a dangerous move to hire Alex and then do nothing.
Starting point is 00:33:10 That's a good point. That's a really good point. Yeah. You don't, that's, I hadn't considered that, that when you hire Alex Damos, it means you're serious. It means that, you know, shit's about to get real around that stuff. Because if it doesn't, you're right. He'll embarrass the company.
Starting point is 00:33:24 Yeah. And he's willing to do that.. He's willing to do that. Well done. You should get representation. Did UTA come up with that line? My upward trajectory to the top echelons of media. That's really what you're jealous of.
Starting point is 00:33:37 That's right. No, I don't want to be in it. You're on a rocket ship to several conferences that will be canceled in the fall. No, they're not. You know what? We're coming back, says Bill Barr,
Starting point is 00:33:47 the epidemiologist expert who's running the Justice Department. What an oaf he continues to be. Anyway, listener mail. Let's move on to listener mail. Roll tape. You've got, you've got. I can't believe I'm going to be a mailman. You've got mail.
Starting point is 00:34:01 Hey, Cara and Scott. This is Stephanie from Wellesley, Massachusetts, and I have a question about the video gaming industry. Global revenues were almost $138 billion in 2018, and that is way more than the worldwide movie and music industries combined. So why is it that we never hear about what is happening in gaming from mainstream media. Are we so PC that we can't admit to playing Candy Crush on our phones? And how or will the video industry change
Starting point is 00:34:30 in a post-COVID-19 world? Thanks so much. Love your show. Yeah, Wellesley, Mass, I love that place. Thank you so much, Stephanie. Listen, there's a huge New York Times story today about gamers who play where other gamers watch and how big their business
Starting point is 00:34:45 has gotten. I do think the mainstream media industry does cover gamers, and I think there's probably almost no impact except that people are going to be using games more. This is an industry that is sort of stay at home and play on your video game. So I suspect it's going to do well and even better going forward. Scott, do you have a different point of view? Well, she's right in the sense that relative to the size of the industry, I think the total U.S. domestic box office take, so think of all movie theaters, is something like, I think it's $5 or $7 billion.
Starting point is 00:35:20 It's just not. And then this industry is $130. I think radio is $20 or $25 billion, or music and radio, $17. And then video games is 130. I think radio is 20 or 25 billion or music and radio 17. And then video games are 130. So it's a staggering industry. I think there's a generation that people who control the editorial desk just aren't into video games. So she's absolutely right. It doesn't get the coverage it deserves.
Starting point is 00:35:42 I was offered a chance to buy the local team in Florida. There's now video game teams. There's league forming. They're fascinating. That's fascinating. stepped in and bought a bunch of teams. But when you think about it, it's incredibly well positioned. You know, there's just some industries that are going to do really well during or come out of Corona with additional wind behind their backs because you can't go see a basketball game, but you can watch a video competition online. Right. So it just strikes me that the industry only comes out of the stronger, the players, whether it's Activision or Microsoft that benefits from video games.
Starting point is 00:36:26 But are your kids, you have two teenage boys. Are your kids gamers? They are. They are. They haven't been playing as much because they're back on online school and stuff like that. But yes, absolutely. They are. And they play it.
Starting point is 00:36:37 I think not quite as much as they used to, which is interesting. But still, it's an important part of their entertainment diet. Now, just to give you some context, Amazon, of course, acquired Twitch, the video gaming streaming platform that helps them cultivate a massive gaming community in that there's a lot of competition, people watching things. And Twitch usage has been up 31%. The numbers
Starting point is 00:36:56 of hours daily watched on Twitch rose by 10 million. Amazon is going to produce its own video games. It just announced, and they're making a cloud game streaming service, Project Tempo, that will make it possible for gamers to play across mobile phones, laptops, desktops without gaming hardware. And don't forget,
Starting point is 00:37:12 last year Google launched its own cloud gaming platform called Stadia. So there's a lot going on, obviously and obviously the players that know the business know the business. Yeah, but the thing you said that really stuck out there was that Amazon is now going into video games because some of these games cost hundreds of millions of dollars. I mean, whenever you sit down and actually watch these games, if you're not a gamer and I'm not, it is breathtaking.
Starting point is 00:37:41 The lifelike graphics, how robust the animation and the processing. I mean, the genius and the resources that go into these games is staggering. And now a lot of video games require a greater investment than the initial work that inspired it, whether it's the initial Harry Potter film at X budget, the video games that follow on it or Star Wars is a multiple of that. Wars is a multiple of that. And what you said that I found that's super interesting was that there are very few companies that can go private label or vertical and use their rails to encourage people to buy their video games and have the capital make the requisite investment. And the only one I can think of is the one you just mentioned, which is Amazon. And I wonder if Apple's going to get into the business because before you know it, Amazon will do what they've done in media, and that is they can spend $5 billion to produce what it would take HBO a billion dollars to produce in terms of content because they don't have those cultures. But it doesn't matter because they can then turn on their algorithms across their platform and start putting their own video games, their own private label ahead of the video games produced by third parties,
Starting point is 00:38:45 further evidence of abuse of monopoly power, owning the rails and why they should be building them. And that's what I'm going to ask. I mean, look, is Bobby Kotick, who I know very well, who runs Activision, going to start realizing he's got to get some political heft around Amazon getting in here?
Starting point is 00:39:00 Would you invest in those companies? Because Activision makes games, essentially. And then there's a whole genre of business of people watching people play games or how to play games. And then there's a whole other genre of serving up these games in some way. So where would you invest in the video game industry right now? So, look, these are incredible businesses. They're well managed. It has the wind at its back.
Starting point is 00:39:24 But hands down, the only video game company you should invest in is Amazon. Because Amazon, you always want to invest. You always want to go with the unregulated monopoly. And because Amazon has cheaper cash, this is where Amazon is. Amazon is great. We're worth a trillion dollars. We need to get to $2 trillion in five years. All right?
Starting point is 00:39:44 How are we going to do that? Well, maybe the economy grows 2% to 3%. Maybe now it's going to go grow negative 2%, which means we've got to take a trillion dollars from somewhere else. Trillion dollars is a lot of market capitalization to grab from other people. We have soaked, we the Amazon vampire have drained the blood of the corpus of retail. Unless we're going to go after Walmart, which we probably can't do, we have to find new industries to disrupt or simply put, kick the shit out of. But we just don't want to kick the shit out of any industry because some industries just aren't big enough. We need to find big,
Starting point is 00:40:15 big pools of money. We need to go after industries that are huge. So the biggest industry in the world, the U.S. healthcare, and they're going after that. But what they've also identified is that $130 billion global video game industry and said, well, what if we started producing games? Because we can foist a shittier game on Amazon Prime members where we control 78% of U.S. households. And one-third of all clicks online come through our algorithms. We can begin foisting on the public our shittier content at a higher price, and it doesn't matter because we'll start giving video games away. It's the old Microsoft strategy. That's right, and that's why we stepped in in 99.
Starting point is 00:40:54 The DOJ got off their asses and stepped in. So, sure here, I do think I'm going to push back a little bit. I think gaming, I think Spotify is better than, of course, as the big players move in, they're going to do a product that's going to be competitive. But in this area, it does matter a lot of who has the best designers and the best creativity. I don't think you can just voice crappy shows on people the same way.
Starting point is 00:41:19 You can't voice crappy games. I think these gamers are quite discerning. And my kids know a lot. They're like, no, that's bad this way. They're very, I don't think they would take bad games just to play games. I just don't. I think there's a little bit of creativity that does reign here. But, you know, it'd be really interesting to have Bobby Kotick on to talk about this because I think they're, you know, Amazon's coming for him and others because they're just in the creative business. And eventually, you know, they own Twitch for him and others because they're just in the creative business. And eventually, you know, they own Twitch. That also creates excitement around games because people
Starting point is 00:41:50 watch people play games and things like that. So it is a question when they're buying every piece of the system. They're buying the watching of the games, they're buying the distribution of the games, the selling of the games, and now they're going to make the games. So you're right. I mean, that is the financial play here, even if it's pretty frightening for a lot of these companies. Well, you're absolutely right. So the community won't accept a bad game, but I put forward the wrong, I looked at this through the wrong rubric. So let me ask it a different way. Would the gaming community take 80% of the best game for free with their Prime membership? Would the gaming community take a game that's 80% as good as the best game for free that's also, by the way, incredibly easy to play and download because they already have interface
Starting point is 00:42:38 with Amazon across all these, and they already have our credit card, and maybe we can even order it with voice. Maybe we come home and your Amazon, your Alexa says, try the latest Star Wars game or NBA game or whatever it is from Amazon Games. Say, tell me more, say, start Amazon Games right now. They just, the example I use is the morning show. And that is Apple took Game of Thrones-like budget to produce Murphy Brown. Any other entertainment firm, traditional entertainment firm, that would be written up in Variety as one of the biggest disasters in the history of media.
Starting point is 00:43:16 They would say, okay, these guys spent $130 million per episode for Reese Witherspoon to reanimate Reese Witherspoon as a plucky young reporter and Jennifer Aniston and Stephen Crowell. And by the way, they're all great in it. It's a good show. It's not a great show. It's a good show. But Heaven's Gate was a good movie, but it wasn't worth $200 million. It was a disaster. And so from any other media company, this would have been a disaster. They're not allowed. They're not allowed. But because it's from Apple and all they need to do is sell a few more phones and because a billion dollars is a rounding error, they can come in and produce ridiculously non-economic content,
Starting point is 00:43:53 which puts incredible pressure on an entire industry that hires caterers, gaffers, creative directors, showrunners. And that is the definition of anti-competitive behavior. Anyway, so yeah, the video game industry, they should be rightfully terrified that Amazon is getting into this business, and they should be contacting their lobbyists and saying, hey, are you going to let what happened to retail happen to this industry? Because we employ a lot of people. And we employ a lot of people that if the gaming industry goes away to Amazon, you're literally
Starting point is 00:44:30 going to have millions of kids not moving out of their parents' basement. It's like, okay, he dropped out of college and he's in our basement, but he got a job with some gaming company. Whenever Amazon moves in, it destroys jobs. Yeah, it's interesting. One of the things that it also is, it's also more in their wheelhouse. It's software. It's software making, software distributing, and technology. Of all the industries, gaming is most
Starting point is 00:44:55 closer to tech than any other. And you're right. So, Stephanie from Wellesley, Massachusetts. This was a great question. I am going to have Bobby Kotick on Recode Deco to talk about this because I think it's a great question. All right, Scott, we're going to take one more break. We'll be back for predictions. Do you feel like your leads never lead anywhere? And you're making content that no one sees and it takes forever to build a campaign?
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Starting point is 00:46:17 Okay, Scott, we're back. Last week, you made the incredible prediction that universities wouldn't be reopening for the fall semester, which I told my son, and he was beside himself. Do you have another prediction this week? My prediction is more boring, but I think more important, and that is you're about to see a concerted, multi-pronged attack on the World Health Organization from the current administration. And that is they realize how badly they fucked up. They realize there are more people who will never get off a ventilator. They realize there's more fear, there's more panic, there's more economic destruction because of their incompetence and their inability to invest and their inability to lead. So, the American brand comes out of this as incompetently or dangerously incompetent. When
Starting point is 00:47:03 I say dangerous, I mean more people are, we now have more infections than China, Italy, and Spain combined. Anyway, so they need to blame somebody. And Donald Trump is the master of the pivot to blame. And his new target is going to be the World Health Organization. And you already see evidence of this. He's already started. Oh yeah, it's just starting. It's going to get worse. And the big winner here is the virus because a key to any war is atomizing and dividing your enemies. The reason World War II, the turning point in World War II wasn't D-Day. It wasn't the Battle of the Bulge. It wasn't even dropping the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The key turning point in World War II, where it would have turned out much differently, was when the Germans and the Russians split apart and Hitler and Germany declared war on Russia.
Starting point is 00:47:57 And the virus, President Trump is playing into the virus, our enemy's hands right now by, instead of figuring out a way to grab hands and unify through global institutions that can serve to connect us and have a unified treaty and a unified front against this enemy, he's dividing us. And he's complaining that we spent 58— Well, it's the same playbook. It's the same playbook. Yeah, he's— Over, over again. But it is literally playing into the hands of this enemy.
Starting point is 00:48:20 The enemy wants this shit. The enemy, the virus wants us to be divided. And the few things, we do have infrastructure and systems and structures in place to try and fight this thing on a global level. And one of those infrastructures and systems and organizations is the World Health Organization, which, by the way, we gave $58 million to. Too bad we didn't give them $58 billion, right? This was a huge opportunity missed in terms of giving the World Health Organization more legitimacy and more funding. And what is he going to do now? He's going to basically say, all right, let's further divide us. Let's further emasculate and neuter our response as an army. This is just, it's a terrible move. It reflects the narcissism, the ignorance, and the incompetence of this administration and, unfortunately, more generally of our society right now. But the World Health Organization is about to come under attack. I have an idea.
Starting point is 00:49:13 Why doesn't some billionaire give the World Health Organization a pile of money? There you go. Like, hello. You know, just like if Bill Gates stepped up and said, here's $500 million. Trump is wrong. That would be, like, beautiful. Yeah. He won't.
Starting point is 00:49:27 I hear you. But, I mean, it's sad that that's where we are. Yeah. It's sad that that's where we are. Anyways, World Health Organization is about to take a bunch of ridiculous incoming fire that damages, that collateral damages all of us. The blame game. Like, he blamed the governors. He blamed, his blame game has really in lost its mind like in
Starting point is 00:49:45 terms of how he finds blame but you know what he's probably i i used to think this was gonna end his presidency i don't know we're talking a little bit about the sanders dropping out you know what the trump is bad as he looks right now he looks stronger than biden he's just hiding in his basement basement talking to his grandkids through a window. I've been polling my conservative relatives and they're not happy with Trump. Yeah, it's not, but here's the thing. Think about Biden right now. Where's Joe?
Starting point is 00:50:13 He's hiding in a basement right now. It's like so early. I don't agree with you. We're going to talk about this next. We'll talk politics next. But I think it's very early and we got plenty of time for, and if he picks it up.
Starting point is 00:50:23 Bernie's out. What do you think about Bernie being out? I'm fine. We didn't even talk about it. We didn't even talk about it. We'll talk about it Monday. How about that? We'll talk about it Monday.
Starting point is 00:50:31 We didn't talk about Steakums, and I love Steakums. Can I just say I want to marry Steakums because I love— They're the smartest Twitter account on Twitter right now in terms of talking. You should read the Steakums accounts because they talk about these things too, Scott. You're so cocky now that you have UTA representation telling me what to do. Telling me what to do.
Starting point is 00:50:51 Trust me, go read Stakehams. I do read Stakehams. My favorite account is the Twitter feed of The Voice of God. I think that one is hilarious. I forget the comedian that does that, but that's really good. That one is good too. Okay, I'll go look at Stakehams. I'm telling you, you'll like it. I want your questions about how they're handling their brand.
Starting point is 00:51:08 I think they're doing a beautiful job, but I am not an expert like you are. And by the way, Scott, did I tell you you're a genius? You're hired! Season three, pivot. Season three, pivot. It was just so funny because I remember sitting there thinking, this is so nakedly sycophantic and it is so effective.
Starting point is 00:51:30 It is so effective. You are hired, my brother. You are hired. Let me just say, Scott, your amazing head of hair is so attractive to me. Like, I don't know what to say. Josh Levy and David Wershafter. Greatness is in the agency of others. Wonderful people creatively trying to figure out a way to get to spread a little dog around the
Starting point is 00:51:48 world spread a little dog you're like a low-rent Trump anyway he's lifting his lady he's lifting his leg and he's spraying the world for religious gatherings obviously I know you're an atheist do you have any creative ways you've been staying teleconnected with your community? Anything, anything? This is the season of kindness. I've been screaming at everyone. It's my neighbors. I've been eavesdropping on all the arguments to make me feel better about myself. Okay, that's not... Nothing. I don't have a hallmark moment. I know we're all looking for those those right now so we can wallpaper over the fact that we have fucked this up so royally. But no, no hallmark moments today.
Starting point is 00:52:30 I see where you are. I see where you are. I'm going to leave you there. Yeah. Down in the hole. How about you? I'm going to leave you. What have you been doing?
Starting point is 00:52:36 Me? You've been Zooming with your baby. What have you been doing? Yes. We Zoom. The baby's. Honestly, there's no way bringing me down. Like every morning I get up, I'm like, oh, God, here we are are still and then the baby smiles and i'm like okay yeah like it's just lucky like
Starting point is 00:52:50 she's having her best pandemic life ever it's just like is she just literally it's hard living her best corona corona because literally lucky is good lucky is really good she was starting to spout some of this new spock stuff that was going on like bring back not not bring back the economy she doesn't think that it's really interesting she's like we should stay you know shuttered starting to spout some of this new Spock stuff that was going on, like bring back, not bring back the economy. She doesn't think that. It's really interesting. She's like, we should stay, you know, shuttered. She's not going with the Fox line.
Starting point is 00:53:12 Oh, that'll take three weeks for them to convince her of it. But she was doing the line of that maybe it's safer and it's not yet. And so that was it. She hasn't fallen for the hydroxychloroquine thing. Does she believe, like most Fox viewers, that Jesus is coming back and he's going to turn water into hydrochloroquine? He's going to turn water into hydrochloroquine? Get it?
Starting point is 00:53:35 No. Get it? No. Yeah, no. She told me for the first time she thought Trump wasn't going to win, which is she was saying he was going to win. It was interesting.
Starting point is 00:53:42 And she had a whole bunch, she had a whole theory. This has not made her amused by him in any way. So we'll see. We'll see. You know, obviously the numbers are interesting. Men support him more than women. Women do not by a large amount.
Starting point is 00:53:55 So it'll be interesting to see if he can get all these sort of his base to really support him. And maybe he can. We'll see. Anyway, don't forget, if you have a story in the news, you want to hear our opinion, just like Stephanie from Wellesley, that was a great question.
Starting point is 00:54:09 Email us at pivot at voxmedia.com to be featured on the show. Scott, please read us out. Today's episode was produced by Rebecca Sinanis. Our executive producer is Erica Anderson. Special thanks to Drew Burrows
Starting point is 00:54:22 and Rebecca Castro. If you like what you heard, please subscribe. We'll be back at the beginning of next week for a breakdown of all things tech and business. We're getting through this, Kara. Thank you, Sable Genius. That's right. UTA. Ooh, smell me. Smell the jungle cat. You are so handsome. You are so handsome. It's just, I don't know how you do it. Season three of Pivot. It's on. It's on. Support for this show is brought to you by Nissan Kicks.
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