Pivot - Elon, Kissinger, Cuban, Haley, IPOs, and Guest Rob Copeland

Episode Date: December 1, 2023

We have a newspalooza for you today. Kara and Scott discuss Elon Musk's decision to put advertisers on blast, Henry Kissinger's death, Nikki Haley's next steps, those Mark Cuban political rumors, and Microsoft's non-voting seat at OpenAI. Then, guest Rob Copeland joins to discuss his new book, “The Fund: Ray Dalio, Bridgewater Associates, and The Unraveling of a Wall Street Legend.” You can find Rob on X at @realrobcopeland. Follow us on Instagram and Threads at @pivotpodcastofficial. Follow us on TikTok at @pivotpodcast. Send us your questions by calling us at 855-51-PIVOT, or at nymag.com/pivot. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Just go to Indeed.com slash podcast right now and say you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? You need Indeed. Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Cara Swisher.

And tell me you're abusing ketamine without telling me you're abusing ketamine, Cara. I am only bereft that Jonathan had to be there to witness that. Jonathan Ross Sorkin. Did you see that part? He called our Canadian friend Jonathan, and Andrew was like, I'm Andrew. Oh my God, I did see that. He said, you're my good friend, Jonathan. And I was thinking, why did he think Jonathan? Is it the only sort of Jewish sounding name he could think of? I don't even know what he was calm. He was on stage the entire time, both unarmed and had health insurance, Canadian. And you know how you get a Canadian to apologize? How?

You step on his foot. And that has some relevance here. Yeah, yeah, which we'll get to. Andrew felt bad. It was like the way Andrew felt, I don't know if he felt bad for the audience. I don't know. Are we going to come back to this because I have a bunch of analogies? Yeah, we are. We have a lot to talk about.

Let me say, I thought he looked, I just want to say, Andrew did a great job. He looked like a person who's been yelled at on the street by someone, like someone who's yelling at them. And he didn't know what he was trying to be polite because he's a polite Canadian. Jonathan is. Anyway, we have a lot to get to today, as you can see. One of our listeners posted on X, hardest job of the week goes to pivot producers trying to figure out how to lasso all the news of the last 24 hours in just one episode. Well, at Startup Stephanie, we just decided to cover all of it. We're going to go through it

really fast. Plus, New York Times reporter Rob Copeland will join us to discuss his new book, The Fun, Ray Dalio, Bridgewater Associates, and the Unraveling of a Wall Street Legend. It's getting a lot of attention. We're going to go right to our first story. As we were talking about, Elon Musk gave quite a performance at the New York Times Dealbook Summit on Wednesday, which was chock full of really good interviews. In a lengthy conversation with Jonathan Ross Sorkin, also known as Andrew, Elon addressed numerous topics ranging from his anti-Semitic comments to his grudge against Biden and waiting on open AI, aliens, monkeys and more. And something about Earth. I don't quite understand what that was about. And when he apologized for that anti-Semitic tweet, it was a comment directed at X's advertisers that caused the most chaos.

Let's listen. We just have you have to hear it. If somebody's going to try to blackmail me with advertising, blackmail me with money, go fuck yourself. But go fuck yourself. Is that clear? I hope it is. Hey, Bob, if you're in the audience. Well, let me ask you then.

That's how I feel. Don't advertise. When pressed on what it would mean for his company, this is what he said. Actually, what this advertising boycott is going to do, it's going to kill the company. And you think that the company... And the whole world will know that those advertisers killed the company? And we will document it in great detail. But those advertisers, I imagine, are going to say, they're going to say, we didn't kill the company. Oh, yeah.

They're going to say. Tell it to Earth. Tell it to Earth. You have to watch this in whole because it's the entire thing is bizarre. Not just this. His diatribe against not being invited to a Biden confab. Everything was so strange. Tell it to earth. What did you think as you watched this? The shout out to was to Bob

Iger, by the way, who earlier in the day, when asked about Elon and advertising on X said that the association was not necessarily a positive one for us. Scott, you were on Christiane Amanpour's show about a year ago and had some comments on Elon that are particularly fitting today. Let's listen. Yeah, I don't think, I think we're seeing the unwinding, not of a company, but the unwinding of a person. And I believe it's a larger trend as societies become wealthier, more educated,

the reliance on a super being and church attendance goes down, but they still look for idols. Into that void has stepped technology leaders because technology is the closest thing we have to magic. And, you know, our new Jesus Christ was Steve Jobs. And now Elon Musk has taken on that mantle. And every ridiculously mean, nonsensical, irrational move he makes is somehow seen as chestnut checkers.

We're just not privy to his genius yet. Yeah, it's crazy checkers. So let's go through the stuff. Let's go through it. And let me have some other highlights, if we want to call them that. Elon's issues with Biden go back to Tesla getting excluded from this White House event on electric vehicles. Shortly after Biden took office, he said it wasn't fair. He's obviously hurting from it.

He said, I have done more for the environment than any other person on Earth when talking about electric vehicle sales. Nikki Haley was dismissed as pro-censorship candidate. More on her later. OpenAI should be renamed super-closed source for maximum profit AI. Ha ha. Scott, please go ahead. I was on a plane watching it last night. I came home from Miami, and I found it difficult to watch.

You know, I think the most generous thing you could say was it was an intense bout of jet lag. But there's something going on here. And I, of course, went to chat GPT andia, depression, anxiety, manipulative behaviors, isolation, self-destructive behaviors, increased sensitivity to criticism, and breakdown of relationships. I mean, his statements were so ridiculous, Kara. Do you realize that 497 of the Fortune 500 companies in the United States are clearly blackmailing us because they refuse to advertise on our platform. And then to go after Disney and it's like, it's just the whole thing was just,

and to be that profane and that aggressive, and then to somehow threaten advertisers that the world will hold you accountable if Twitter goes down. Earth, Earth will, Earth will. I thought the most disturbing part as someone who raises boys, I'm talking about as a 13-year-old, just the incredible hardship and dysfunction he faced. And so his answer or his response to this incredible abuse, being the son of a model and an emerald miner, was the decision to save humanity by making us an interplanetary species.

I mean, he's literally, he's just like kind of fucking lost his shit. Yeah, he's deluded. You know, again, his stands literally were like, this was great. He told it like it was. It's really sad. It's sad. It's sad. I don't feel sorry for him, but it's sad to watch.

He thinks he's great. It's sad. It's sad. I don't feel sorry for him, but it's sad to watch. He thinks he's great. His clothes were strange. Like he was dressed as a fighter pilot from the World War II, I guess. I don't really know. Yeah, I did notice that. Which is fine. He can wear whatever he wants. But it just, the whole visual was weird.

He looked exhausted. He looked unshaven. You know, I thought Linda Iaccarino did the worst job of any CEO in recent memory, but he has managed to top it. He bested her. Two things. Linda Iaccarino was in the audience. She then, I thought, she must have been horrified, but instead, she put up a lengthy post on

X afterwards. I'm not going to read it in full, but here's a quote. When it comes to advertising, X is standing at a unique and amazing intersection of free speech and Main Street. Block that fucking metaphor, but okay. I think she just got run over by, you know, a truck, essentially, driven by Elon Musk. One was, how do you think she's feeling today at that intersection? She is really a piece of work, I gotta to say, because she seems nuts, but she is obviously something else. My understanding of Linda is that she was outstanding at her job.

She was a fantastic head of sales. Well, I'll get to that. Yeah. And so you put someone as a head of sales for a traditional company with a lot of products, a lot of outstanding assets to sell, and then you show up and you're fighting a fire with a squirt gun, and then you find out that the person who you're fighting the fighting for keeps putting gasoline in your squirt gun, making, I mean, her job is nearer. She doesn't have to go this far.

She can leave. She cannot put out quotes like this. This was shocking to me. She cannot put out quotes like this. This was shocking to me. I can't decide whether she's part of the problem. There's been very few people who have gone from zero to global awareness and then in almost as fast a time, a period, have absolutely destroyed their reputation. Yeah.

Now, you could argue in this day and age, it's just all about awareness. And I think she'll be able to get another job. But she just looks totally flaccid in the face of an owner who doesn't respect anything about her role as CEO. She's not a CEO. And again, the analogy is she's the circus clown following this elephant around, scooping up his shit all the time. Yeah, yeah. It's really, you know, she was also the subject of a not very flattering profile in The Hollywood Reporter by Kim Masters Wednesday, where the writer Kim Masters spoke with unnamed former NBC colleagues. The article quotes someone who said Linda let her ego get the best of her. She thought she could control him. It was a level of ego and hubris you rarely see. I thought it was a pretty fair article. Others thought it was, you know, it was all

unnamed sources, but it was accurate. It was, I know her. That's, she was tough. She's a tough and somewhat of a chaotic manager. Not that I care. Lots of bad people don't manage as well, but she definitely is way in, way over her skis, but then continues to double down. That's the tragedy here is this sort of like full-scale embracing of this lunatic behavior by Elon. Why would any advertisers stay with X at this point? You know, he's done this before. Remember when he first got to the company, he insulted advertisers at that first advertising meeting? Don't advertise with us.

Then he just hates anyone in control of his destiny, I guess, or something. Well, the answer is no big advertiser is going to, or no advertiser is worried about their reputation. I mean, I found his comments, everyone wants to peer, try and peer into his heart to really understand if he's an anti-Semite. And my view is if you say and do anti-Semitic things, then boom, you're an anti-Semite. And so big companies that are correctly more sensitive to this sort of scrutiny and criticism as they should be are going to stay away from this thing. Because here's the thing. There are about a billion other options to spend your money. There's no shortage. There are fewer ad dollars than there are platforms

to spend those dollars on. Why take the risk? It's never been known as being a great product in terms of ROI. The people or the firms that will continue to advertise, well, because the outflow

of advertising will be so dramatic, logically speaking, the ROI on the ad dollars that remain should go up because there'll be fewer of them. So if you're trying to sell an ear cleaning product, I wouldn't be surprised, and I hate to say this, I wouldn't be surprised if the ROI on your ad dollars on Twitter that are going to be competing with much fewer dollars for eyeballs will actually go up. So they'll probably see

a bit of a bump, the smaller advertisers in terms of ROI, because they'll just be so few dollars chasing what is still a fairly large audience. The ads have gotten really scary. They've gotten really weird. Air cleaning product is one of them. And that weird glue. Now, you haven't been on it, but there's a weird hand glue. I don't really know what it is. You know, how is this going to end? What is Earth going to do? Because from a business point of view, X was, last week, the New York Times reported that X was in danger of losing $75 million in advertising before the interview. You're in a room with marketers right now who are still on the platform. What is being

said? Well, it's not any marketer I would know. No CMO of any company. Here's my boast of narcissism. I've worked with 27 of the 100 CMOs of the Fortune 100 globally. None of them would have anything to do with this platform right now. None of them. Let me get this. The product's not that great. You might be accused of enabling an anti-Semite. Oh, and if you decide to stop advertising, he's going to say you're blackmailing him and start face, say your Pepsi, your, you know, diet Pepsi ad ends up next to a swastika. And then a really decent question would be like, you saw this shit happening and you made the conscious decision to put us at risk like this. So nobody you or me knows is going to be advertising on this platform. It is a traffic accident. Speaking of the corner of free speech in Maine,

I don't know. This is just, it was so bizarre. I was in New York. I didn't go. But you used to be friends with him. Do you know anyone that knows him? I wasn't friends. He was so funny.

He was referring to Andrew as a friend, Jonathan as a friend. Jonathan's not his friend either. He thinks anyone who's nice to him is his friend. It's really sad, actually. Andrew and I are just reporters.

I liked him. I certainly thought he was interesting. No, I don't. Everyone just shakes their head. Everyone just shakes their head. But I do think on a meta level, I do think the world is having a healthy immune response to Elon Musk. And that is throughout history. Yeah, the audience certainly did.

You could hear it. They were like, huh, huh, huh, huh. But we don't have a president of the world. We don't have one company that controls the world. We have several that are marching towards that. But generally speaking, over time, the ecosystem doesn't like an invasive species, and it starts to fight back against it. And when one person aggregates this much power, I think the world does have a healthy immune gag reflex. And I feel like we're starting to really choke on this guy. I don't know.

He still has his stance. I got like whack last night because I said someone got fucked tonight and it wasn't who he thinks it is. You know, he got fucked. He, of course, likes being fucked like that. I don't know. He has a lot of stands that thought this was great and thought it was great. I don't know. He has a lot of stans that thought this was great and thought it was great. And then, even more disappointing, a lot of supporters of Israel just took in his ridiculous PR stunt of a trip and let him off the hook as they attacked other people who did much less, who just expressed desire for a ceasefire or were worried about the health of some Palestinian children, they let him off. Great job, Elon, in Silicon Valley. And I think he has a lot more support than you think.

I think people are willing. It's like Trump. It's like Trump. He's winning. You might be right. The whole Israel stunt, in my opinion, I hold Netanyahu accountable. I think Bibi Netanyahu and his far right, his desperate attempt to cling to power, cutting deals with the far right extremists, and I'll also add bigoted members of the Knesset, has been a disaster for Israel and Jews globally. And him deciding to have a moment with the world's wealthiest man and give any sort of credibility. Shameful. Give any sort of any sort of credibility. Shameful. Give any sort of veracity to this. Shameful. This was a bad look all the way around. I don't know who's advising Netanyahu, but this looked desperate, pandering.

Let me just make one more point. This is a 52-year-old man, okay? He's a 52 years old. This is how he behaves. It's shameful. Well, I'm not, but here's the thing, and it comes back to something very basic. You know when, just as the worst thing you can do to a dog

is leave it alone, men need relationships. Oh, I guess. And I realize I'm an unlicensed psychotherapist here. The most successful people in the world, I mean, contrast this with Jimmy Carter. Oh, yeah. Right? The most successful, the happiest people in the world all have one thing in common. And that is they're living with other people that love them immensely and who let them love them immensely.

And I feel like this guy's just totally isolated. Maybe. He's got a lot of people around him. No one who has any influence whatsoever. Feels very Tony Hsieh-like, though, doesn't it? It does. Well, Tony was sweet, though. Never. Tony was sweet. This man isn't sweet. He's something else. Let me just say one more thing. The Biden stuff was sad. I was like, get over it, dude. Get some therapy. He didn't invite you. Oh, that he wasn't invited to the— Yeah, that was—oh, ow.

I'm like, get the fuck over it, like, 52-year-old man. Not fair. It's not fair. It's the whole victimization, narcissism thing. And he's right, by the way. It was ridiculous and not fair. Fine. Guess what?

That's life in the big city. That's life at the corner of Free Speech in Maine. Block that metaphor, Linda, and get out. Get out, Linda. You really... I actually, I really did feel, I don't want to say feel sorry because I think he's outstanding and handled as well as he could, but it was like Andrew Ross Sorkin walked in on someone masturbating and just didn't know what to do. He actually, if you, he doesn't say words there. You heard it. He's like, uh, I would have been more aggressive in his face. Yeah, but that's what makes Andrew Canadian.

Yeah, right. That's Canadian. Jonathan. We're calling him Jonathan. He wants to present people in their best light. Yeah, he does. He had a lot of great interviews, by the way, that day. Anyway, let's get on to more news.

Former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger has died at 100. He leaves behind a complicated legacy, as his New York Times obituary put it. Few diplomats have been both celebrated and reviled with such passion. For better or worse, Kissinger had a major hand in engineering U.S. relations with China, Vietnam, the Soviet Union, the Middle East, and more. His later years, he also got swindled by Elizabeth Holmes and Theranos. So there's that. I am not a fan. I'm on the Anthony Bourdain side of this equation, who visited Cambodia, the bombings of Laos and Cambodia were, as far as I'm concerned, a war crime. I know we never think of ourselves that way, but

his secret war there in Southeast Asia was repulsive. And he got lionized for it. He was very close to a lot of tech people, Eric Schmidt and others. They wrote a book together, I think. In a Threads post, former Senator Al Franken and former SNL star Al Franken said, Kissinger called SNL once late on a Friday night looking for ticks for his son.

The Stones were playing that week. I told him that if it hadn't been for the Christmas bombing, he'd have tickets. I'm with Al Franken, I gotta say. Anyway, any fond memories? Well, look, he marks the century. He's easily one of the most important figures of the 20th century, and you mentioned it, figuring out, I mean, the exit of Vietnam is kind of epitomizes his approach to foreign policy, and that is he architected our exit, which was a key event. He made it as dignified as a loss can be, but at the same time, he even knowing that we were going to leave and knowing we were losing the war and we would eventually exit, he decided to continue the death on both sides for geopolitical positioning and reputation. It's called realpolitik. That was his thing, right? I'm finding as I try and sort through these issues and take a stand is you want to find

a total absence of moral clarity, just enter the world of geopolitics. There's just no way to hermetically seal yourself in a bubble in any viewpoint around this stuff without having a lack of empathy for the other side. You just can't. But I mean, the peace in the Middle East, opening up China, he was a brilliant man. And I think he sort of embodies our legacy in the 20th century. And that is we served our interests really well, but it came at a huge denial of our values

in many instances. Oh, I don't know. I think he was, if I had to plus and minus, it would be a minus. I'm with the minus side. I just, I get that. I understand the world is, you know, that's life in the big city, right? I get it. And the discussion Amanda and I were having was about people who now we're going to start kissing up, including the Biden administration to the Saudis. And, you know, you can sit there and go, we mustn't, we mustn't. They're terrible thugs, which I think they are. But if you're playing geopolitics, unfortunately, it kind of embodied America's view of the world. And that is, we were outstanding at representing our interests, but we lost a sense of self in the pursuit of

that. And by the way, I think people probably push back on this because all you have to do is go to the Iraq war. But I do think that people, our administrations took a, I think the current administration reflects some of those learnings. I do think they have a strong sense of these are our values. And even if our values cost us, it's worth it. They're principles, not opinions. I get it. Holmes thing was, you know, he was another old man caught in that. He got bamboozled by her, like George Shultz. There's a lot of people who got man caught in that. He got bamboozled by her like George Shultz. There's a lot of people who got caught up in that. Yeah, it was Shultz and him that really particularly.

Mattis, General Mattis. I mean, it was literally the first ballot Hall of Fame of Phipps, what I call Phipps on boards, formerly important people. All the old white guys. And what do you know? They were taken in by a 30-year-old blonde woman. White guys. And what do you know? They were taken in by a 30-year-old blonde woman.

I mean, and by the way, had WeWorks Board gotten as pissed off as them, Adam Newman might be in jail. Because if you look at what she did, in my view, I don't know. I was very uncomfortable with the prison sentence levied against Elizabeth Holmes. Ten-year sentence. She's part of an exercise class. One of the Real Housewives is also incarcerated with her. Did not know that. Life is strange. I know I have these little factoids for you.

Well, we'll see. He was also close to, as I said, to Eric Schmidt. Hillary Clinton loved him. There's nothing around him. He's a brilliant man. When I was doing my speaking circuit, when I just started speaking 15 years ago,

one of my first talks was this World Economic Forum talk and I think it was in Monterrey, Mexico. And he got up there at the age of, you know, whatever it was, 85, and just had the audience enraptured. Just a brilliant mind. I was offered to be introduced to him once, and I said, I just can't. You know, and you know I love to meet a famous person. I can't talk to that man without saying, you vile, horrible person.

I just couldn't. I don't know why with him, because there's saying you vile, horrible person. I just couldn't. I don't know why with him, because there's lots of vile, horrible people. Everyone's real delighted by George Bush, and he certainly, W, he certainly did some damage across the world. And what I would say in his defense is that if you decide to be Secretary of State in the United States during a tumultuous time, you're going to risk a lot of people such as yourself not wanting to meet with you for the rest of your life. Yeah, I get it. Although I think he made some moves that made it even worse. They did not have to do the lying. He was part of that lying Nixon administration. Anyway, let's move on to someone we like. Mark Cuban is making some big moves that have everyone wondering what's next.

Also not perfect, everybody. I know that. The Dallas Mavericks owner will sell a majority of his stake in the team to casino magnate Miriam Adelson for $3.5 billion. He'll get the money, but he'll control the team, which was interesting. He recently announced that he intends to leave Shark Tank in the next year. The billionaire is denied claims to run for president, including to me. I texted him immediately, and he said he wasn't. I'm not sure what he's doing. I don't know what he's going to do with all the money. I think he may run in 2028, but he was pretty adamant to me that he wasn't. Yeah, the thing that struck me about this is that, so again, bringing this back to me, last year in my predictions for 2023, I said the best performing asset class would be sports teams.

They're essentially regulated monopolies. They control the supply. If sports are doing really well, if professional basketball or football teams are doing really well, you can't just start a team, a new team in Tampa. You can't. It has an exclusion from antitrust.

It is a regulated monopoly they control. It's the ultimate. So on the supply side, it has scarcity, artificially regulated scarcity. On the demand side, the people that want these teams, billionaires, have quintupled. If you're 58 and worth $9 billion and thinking you're going to be dead soon and want to be the most interesting person in Cleveland overnight, you go buy the

Indians or the Cavaliers. And so demand has exploded, supply has gone down. And this is evidence of that. Not only the fact that in 23 years, the value of this company has gone down. And this is evidence of that. Not only the fact that in 23 years, the value of this company has gone from $200 million to $3.5 billion, but even more than that, he's pulled off the first of its kind in sports that I know of, and that is a dual-class shareholder structure. And that is, despite the fact he will now own less than 50%, he'll own a minority share of the company, he's still in control. And I had never seen that in professional sports before. So he said, I want the fame, I want control, but I want to de-risk my economic interests here. But everything, in my view, going back to your first

comments, when I saw this, when I saw leaving Shark Tank, raising billions of dollars, I'm like, hello, run for president. That's what I thought. I don't know. Here's why I don't think it. Look, he's 65. He just turned, I think he just turned, I think he told me, just turned 65. I think he's done charting forever. You get tired of things. I know I, you know, I'm not doing that anymore. Like code or something. It's not the same thing.

Well, it's similar. I just didn't want to do it anymore, right? And everyone was thinking I was up to something else. I think he had done it enough. It gets tiring. It gets tiring and boring, I guess, on some level. I think he, one thing Mark does, and the reason he is so wealthy was

because he knew the top during the first, that bubble when he sold off Broadcast.com. Broadcast.com for $5 billion. Remember, remember? Radio over the internet. That was definitely worth $5 billion. It was such a, we actually got off on a bad foot because I'm like, that was the biggest con in history. It's like, how dare you?

I'm like, come on. 100%. Come on. 100%. We got in a big fight over it. AOL buying Time Warner. Or my favorite was when Union Square Ventures managed to foist their total shit of Tumblr on Marissa Mayer for $1.1 billion.

Yeah. Seven years later, sold for $3 million. $1.1 billion to $3 million. Oh, Tumblr. Oh, yeah. I broke that story. You know, he knows the top. I think he knows.

I think he's like, this is a good time. I need money for something else, whether it's cost plus drugs. I think he's in the back of his mind. He thinks about running. I just was like, he should run. He should be interesting. People lost their minds. Why do we need another billionaire?

I'm like, he's not like other billionaires. I think he'd be an interesting voice in the race. And the reason why I still think there's a chance, Cara, you know, I'm on the speaking circuit. I see Mark pretty regularly. And I oftentimes wonder to myself, why is he at a convention in Orlando speaking to the National Association of Realtors if he's not trying to like, he doesn't need the money. He's very likable too. He is very likable. He's got all of the qualities,

except for public service experience. He's got all of the qualities for an elected representative. And you get the sense also, he has something that like you might have, the reason why I could never run for office. I think he genuinely likes people. He enjoys meeting them and- He does. He's interested in them. He has a very nice family. His daughter's an

internet star of some sort, I think, on TikTok. He has a very nice family. I don't know. I think he's doing a lot with cost plus drugs. Everyone just write me about how mean he was to your startup. Guess what? Elon Musk is all I have to tell you. Next one, JP Morgan CEO, Jamie Dimon, another person that they think is going to be treasury secretary or something like that. At the New York Times Dealbook Summit, Dimon urged the room to help Nikki Haley to, quote, get a choice on the Republican side that might be better than Trump. That's pretty much anybody. Haley, it's interesting because Jamie Downs is pretty much a Democrat. I mean, he's supported Democratic candidates.

Haley has also recently gained support from billionaire Charles Koch's political network and a super PAC called Independence Moving the Needle. Very important things for her. But a recent poll from CNN showed her in second place at 20% in the primary state of New Hampshire. Donald Trump is still far ahead. It was interesting for Diamond to say that. He likes to say things like that, but thoughts? I like Jamie. I think he's an iconic business figure. I think he's smart. And the thing I like about him is he's not scripted. He doesn't check with his PR department and starch everything. He speaks his mind. I think he's been a great leader at J.P. Morgan. I'd love to see him in

administration as a treasury secretary. That's what it looks like, yeah. I think he's very thoughtful in general. The CEO of a company probably shouldn't be picking candidates this early in the race. But he does kind of occupy a pretty important role. I think it's kind of zero fucks given. He's at an age. He has all the money he needs. He's so well-respected and liked.

fucks given. He's at an age, he has all the money he needs, he's so well-respected and liked. But back to his point, if we were going to do wins and fails- Not yet. I know, but I'm just saying, well, the biggest winner from the last couple of weeks is probably Nikki Haley. I mean, she has essentially become what everyone was hoping Ron DeSantis would be, and that is a viable alternative to Trump. DeSantis, his campaign could best be described in one word, thud. And she has been steadfast, smart, performed really well in the debates. And the reality is money matters. Typically, until Hillary Clinton, whoever raised the most money won. And now that she has, now that she not only has Charles Koch's money, they're willing to spend it.

Like all these tech bros in the Bay Area who pretend to be players, they're actually pretty cheap. They usually don't give that much money to these candidates. Whereas the Koch brothers, they'll throw serious cabbage behind. Cabbage and a network of organizations. And she'll be a great contrast.

She's a great, if it ever gets down, I know at some point it will, but logically if it gets down to, unless there's new candidates, if it gets down on the Republican side to Trump and Haley, she will be a great foil. She'll be a great contrast. Her youth. I don't know. I have this. People are going to like. She'll be a great contrast. Her youth. I don't know. I have this. I think people are going to like. She's very likable. She's very likable.

And she has some heinous policies, for sure. But she looks like someone you can do business with. Let's just say someone you can do business with. As progressives, the bottom line is I could live with Nikki, Governor Haley or Ambassador Haley, and I think you could, too. Yeah. She's shown a good side. She did the flag. So if she has to do MAGA cosplay because she can't lose them too much, I get it.

But she's doing the very least amount she can do, I think. If it's Biden-Haley, she wins. She wins. She wins. I would agree. I don't know. She'd move to the center very quickly, I would think. Oh, of course.

And she'd have an easy time doing it. Anyway, moving on in our news bonanza, Microsoft will have a non-voting board seat on Open Air, like we said they would. Despite owning 49% of the company, Microsoft previously did not have representation at all on the board. The board now consists of Brett Taylor, Larry Summers, and Adam D'Angelo, who are working to build out a board. Sam Altman announced that the company did not end up losing a single employee. He's back officially. I'll be talking to him and others there over the next week or so. I think this is exactly what we thought. It's calming down. Let's talk about a stupid alleyway for this company. But here we are. Microsoft, I think they have a non-voting board seat, but they have enormous influence. That's my take on the situation. to through which the board gets all of the information until at some point the CFO, who is the source of truth and every board member should establish an offline relationship with, comes back with such bad numbers that the real board meeting, which usually takes place

in the parking lot after the board meeting between the two powerful players on the board, and they decide to fire the CEO. Until that point, the CEO has the most power. A close second, and then sometimes the first, see above when they fire the CEO, is the person who's invested the most money. It doesn't matter how good, how bad they are, but the person who's written the biggest check, it's capitalism, they have the biggest voice on the board. And then typically the kind of the third leg of the power stool on a board is there's an independent director who has earned everyone's respect, who has professional credentials, speaks less, but carries a big stick, is sort of the deep voice on the board of reason. It serves as Switzerland between management and the largest investor, and usually they get an award at some point.

Those three people control the board. And the thing about an observer seat, it doesn't matter because it has just as much power. And that whoever the observer is from Microsoft. It's going to be the CTO, I think. He will have more power than anyone else on the board, maybe even including Sam, given that Sam's already been fired once. And he's not on the board. Sam's not on the board. Because I've had observers on most of my boards.

Because I've had observers on most of my boards. So my last board, two people from my venture capitalists, and they would show up with a third person, an associate, say, well, this is a good training for him. You can't bring him because every voice is representation. And nothing, Kara, ever actually comes down to a vote. It's all a discussion. And then you kind of hug it out. And then you kind of hug it out, and then you all vote unanimously. And so every voice in the room, whether you're, quote, unquote, from a government standpoint, actually have a board seat or not, it doesn't matter. So the most important person in that boardroom.

Yeah, they have to do that just, you know, for regulatory reasons and all kinds of things and all kinds of government scrutiny stuff. But the most important person in those board meetings will be the representative for Microsoft because they wrote the biggest check. And it doesn't matter whether he's technically or officially on the board or not. He will be in the room making calls and speaking with a $13 billion stick. That's correct. Okay, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll discuss whether 2024 is going to be a comeback year for IPOs. We'll discuss whether 2024 is going to be a comeback year for IPOs.

And we'll talk to a friend of Pivot, Rob Copeland, about his new book, The Fund, that's made a lot of headlines recently. Advertiser content from Zelle. When you picture an online scammer, what do you see? For the longest time, we have these images of somebody sitting crouched over their computer with a hoodie on, just kind of typing away in the middle of the night. And honestly, that's not what it is anymore. That's Ian Mitchell, a banker turned fraud fighter. These days, online scams look more like crime syndicates than individual con artists. And they're making bank. Last year, scammers made off with more than $10 billion. It's mind-blowing to see the kind of infrastructure that's been built to facilitate scamming at scale.

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money to people you know and trust. Thumbtack presents the ins and outs of caring for your home. Thumbtack presents the ins and outs of caring for your home. Out. Procrastination, putting it off, kicking the can down the road. In. Plans and guides that make it easy to get home projects done. Out. Carpet in the bathroom. Like, why? In. Knowing what to do, when to do it, and who to hire. Start caring for your home with confidence. Download Thumbtack today. Scott, we're back. We haven't said goodbye to 2023 yet, but 2024 is already looking to be a big year for IPOs with some notable companies

in the mix. Rumored IPO candidates include Reddit and Skims, as well as a fast fashion company, Shein, which is reportedly already filed confidentially. It's been an underwhelming time for IPOs, as everybody knows, with Instacart and Birkenstock, among others, floundering in recent months. Is it about to turn around? We can go through these. Talk to me overall, and then we'll go through the individual companies. So I got this wrong. Earlier in the year, I don't remember, I predicted in the back half that you'd seen a resurgence

in IPOs. I thought there was pent-up demand, capital on the sidelines, good companies ready to go. And several companies did get out, but their valuations were too aggressive. The market is much different now, and it's been underwhelming. And it kind of created a new winter again in IPOs. It's been a terrible year for IPOs. And the question is the following.

Will these new companies, these are good companies, reignite it again? Is it a cyclical thing? I would argue that the IPO is in structural decline. And typically, the IPO, it served a couple purposes. It was a capital-raising event, because the private markets, VCs didn't want to put $300 million into a company. The whole funds used to be $300 million. They wrote checks of $10 and $20 million. And when the company needed hundreds of millions, it went public. And it also provided liquidity for the previous investors and the employees. And now, both in terms of your ability

to raise massive amounts of capital and provide liquidity in the secondary market, the private markets can kind of do it all right now. Yeah, dial up the Saudis. Dial up the Saudis. So all you do, the only reason you take a company public, quite frankly, is when the private investors go, you know what? This just isn't worth what it was in the private markets in the last round. Let's see if we can find some idiots called retail investors to buy this at a valuation of 30 times revenues. They take it public. Maybe they fool retail investors for a little while into that valuation.

They get out. The stock goes down. But here's the thing. The market has a memory. The market goes, we're sick of picking up your crap. We're sick of picking up the bag you just dumped and it's put a chill on the entire market. Whereas when Amazon and Netflix and Google went public 10 and 20 years ago, there was still a lot of juice to be squeezed. So what has happened? All the value in the growth in these companies has been sequestered and captured by private institutional

investors. And the whole IPO market kind of, to a certain extent, no longer really serves a real purpose. Okay, let's start though. These might go public still. People are still doing it. Let's start with Reddit. They have been maybe going public for a long time um it's been around forever has had different ownership structures um it's considered uh considering a valuation as high as 15 billion dollars obviously reddit is the sort of social media communications posting site that's kind of cleaned itself up from its sort of less savory days. What do you think about this? A lot of advertising here, too. So, all of this has to be couched against its valuation that they try and take it public out. But Reddit, I think, is a phenomenon. I think it's a great

company. It's managed to carve out a space in social or whatever you want to call it in a space where no one thought it could be carved out. It became a global brand because of the meme stock movement where all of a sudden, you know, certain pages or communities on Reddit literally move the markets. I think it's well run. I would imagine their traffic has gone up. It's a good ad model. I don't know how their ad stack is like. I'm going to make one observation. It's where my kids watch all their videos. Yeah, it's really wild. They really do. They are always on Reddit and they use it as an entertainment vehicle, a little more substance. They don't participate in the boards and stuff and

discussions, although that's very vibrant, but they find all their videos there. I was surprised when I heard about it, but now I'm not, that kind of thing. Let's get to, and Huffman is a really interesting CEO. He's one of the founders. What about, he came back, long story, but what about Skims, Kim Kardashian's shaper company? It's valued at 4 billion. She of course just debuted the nipple bra, which was something, I got you that for Christmas.

I hate to do a reveal. Thank you. What do you think? It's a great brand. It represents a phenomena of celebrities getting behind an existing product line, bringing it awareness. Kim Kardashian, she's a global brand. It's a good product. She's a great entrepreneur.

She's very easy to be cynical about or make fun of. She's a great entrepreneur. I don't. I'm not. As you know, I'm not. I had her on many years ago because I thought that. This couple is a really sharp couple who's the actual executive of the company, but she's quite involved. And putting on that nipple bra was brilliant. I'm sorry. It was. It was weird, but brilliant. And people like the product.

There'll be a lot of copies of her, of this stuff. Rihanna will jump in here, I'm sure, or something like that. But smart. She's always moving. Kim Kardashian's always moving. And I think she is integral to this company in a significant way and not just showing up for things. I don't think she sows everything, but you know what I mean. Like, I think she's very involved, more so than you would imagine. Whether it's Ryan Reynolds in Aviation Gen, I mean.

Yes, he's a very comparable character. Just bringing that kind of awareness or I hate to say it, Elon Musk, the ability to use your celebrity to dramatically decrease your traditional media expenditure required to get that level of awareness gives you a huge advantage.

And they have that. Yeah, and she's not going to tell anyone to go fuck themselves. Anyway, as I mentioned, the fast fashion company Shein has already confidentially filed. It could be a huge one. It was valued around $66 billion in fundraising round in May and targeting an $80 to $90 billion valuation, according to Bloomberg. Shein was founded in China, is now based in Singapore. The company has a lot of issues over the years,

getting accused of violating labor laws, harming the environment more. Fast fashion is under siege because of environmental concerns, but super, super popular company. There's been several stages to specialty retail apparel. It used to be the most valuable private company in the world was Levi Strauss and Company, where they would pile Levi's high and Army, Navy stores, JCPenney's, and The Gap, which sold albums and Levi's. And then the Gap brought in this genius merchant named Mickey Drexler, who said, we control the branding by virtue of the fact that we have the interface with the consumer known as retail. And we're going to put in beach blonde wood, nice scents, oversized dressing rooms, really attractive sales associates, curated music. And then they created their own private label, Gap Brand. And it was casual clothing, consistent.

Yeah, it's the Gap for this era. And the Gap was arguably, I think, one of the best performing stocks of the 80 brand. And it was casual clothing, consistent. Yeah, it's a gap for this era. And the Gap was arguably, I think, one of the best performing stocks of the 80s. And then enter Old Navy, 80% of the quality, 50% of the price. Old Navy was the fastest zero to a billion dollar retailer. Actually, that was my first strategy engagement and my strategy firm and business called Profit. But anyways, and then the next wave was fast fashion. H&M, Zara, Uniqlo. And they basically said, using supply chain, we can Old Navy, Old Navy. And that is, we can not only give you stuff at the price of Old Navy, but our supply chain is we will send people to the runway shows in Paris. And within two weeks, we will have reasonable knockoffs of the Calvin Klein. Yeah, and also it's good stuff. I used to get my t-shirts from The Gap, and now I get them from Uniqlo.

They're good. I don't want to pay forever for Vince. The Uniqlo is casual. And by the way, the family, the science of Zara became the wealthiest family in Europe. And what they did was they created a sense of scarcity. They would do limited runs. So when you went into Zara, unlike The Gap, and you saw something that was knocked off from the most recent, whatever, you know, Vuitton show, and obviously much lower quality, not nearly the artisanship, but if you didn't buy it, it might not be there in two weeks.

And what Sheehan represents is the next wave, and that is through unbelievable supply chain, distribution, manufacturing. On top of fashions. It's hard to stay on top. I used to write about retail. And if you miss, like if you get the pedal pushers wrong one year,

you're fucked. You know, I remember one company was hot, hot, hot, and then it was not, not, not. It's harder, but they keep it simple. That's the thing is a lot of these companies. Another one is Muji is another one that's super popular. I was visiting my friends at CNN yesterday, and I got lost in that mall there, which is a high-end mall. But it had such an Asian flavor, that mall, with like Muji was there, I think.

You mean at Hudson? Hudson Yards, yeah. It was really interesting. It was a really interesting, it was packed. By the way, it's a disaster. No, no, it was packed yesterday, I can tell you. Back to Shein. Shein has taken all of that,

limited supply runs, knocking off great fashion, unbelievable, unbelievably agile supply chain. And the result is something you don't get or we haven't had in a while. Despite that explosive growth, which usually comes with losses, it's profitable. So now their issue is they, by, you know, purposely and no accident, they have relocated their HQ to Singapore. They're trying to be very responsive to the geopolitical concerns. But more than that, they also are trying to be, I've heard the CEO and the getting you a pocket t-shirt for nine bucks involves some bad shit along the way that you should be cognizant of. And it's happened to almost every major apparel brand. And that's the issue facing these guys.

But the next generation of retail appears to be embodied by this company, Shein, that has gone from like zero to 30 billion in zero time flat while maintaining profitability. And it goes to a bigger issue, Cara, and that is- Keep going because there's no periods in your sentences right now, but go ahead. I get it. I think you're stressed out. You're being less kind today. Yeah, I think you're stressed. I'm not stressed out. It's just there was no periods there. I'm just waiting for a period, but go ahead. Something's going on with you. Something's going on. Even a semicolon would be nice. Maybe a colon, a full colon. Go ahead. I just had my colon checked.

Okay. He said, I have the colon of a 49-year-old. And we're still going on. Land the plane, Scott Galloway. Jonathan, I'm going to call you Jonathan. Here's the issue. Young people don't have as much money as we did at their age. Fair point. And so the ultimate business strategy, whether it's the strategy of Dell or Walmart or China, is more for less. And that is what Shein is bringing to a younger generation and saying, you know what? We can give you more for less. Yep. That's where my kids shop. Uniqlo, Shein, Muji, H&M. That's where they get their stuff. Anyway, and it's nice. It's actually nice. Okay, Scott, we're going to get to our friend of Pivot. Rob Copeland is a finance reporter for the New York Times and the author of The Fund, Ray Dalio, Bridgewater Associates, and the Unraveling of a Wall Street Legend.

This is a book that has made a lot of headlines over the last few weeks and gotten some big pushback from Ray, who's a very pugnacious person. We're going to get into that. Welcome, Rob. This is a pretty scathing look at Ray Dalio and his hedge fund, Bridgewater. You've been covering Dalio for years. First, I want to tell you, what about him fascinates you? Sure. He's sort of a larger-than-life than just a business figure. You know, he claims to have these principles, which he says, if you follow them, they will help you achieve a higher level of self. He says they apply for life and work. And he's become this sort of endorsed figure from Bill Gates and Reed Hastings and all these technology figures who seem not to realize that the technology at the firm doesn't work and never did.

Okay. So you start the book with the author's note saying, Ray Dalio does not want you to read this book. And he posted on LinkedIn saying, in part, this is one of those sensational and inaccurate tabloid books written to sell books to people who like gossip. And just this week at the Fortune Global Forum, he said the book is fiction, created as fact, accusing you of making up some of the conversations in the book. He also noted multiple times that you applied for a job at Bridgewater Information, which you get into the book as well. I think this means you did a great job, mostly. So talk to me about how you're looking at this pushback by this guy. Because he likes to, he has this godlike tendency. He's clearly a narcissist, as many people I cover and you cover are. But he's almost religious.

He's decided he's become this pundit, this business pundit of some sort. Well, I would say, first of all, I didn't expect him to read the book and say, oh, you got me and go away. So, you know, they fight harder. He has been, you know, attacking me to distract from his own behavior for years inside Bridgewater, which is so different from the character that he plays on TV. And so I will say I'm not surprised that he's attacking me, but I am surprised that people don't realize that he's not actually saying anything about the content of the book because he can't, because we've got him dead to rights there. Right, right. You mentioned he sees himself as like a philosopher. He's like a philosopher king.

He's not satisfied to just have $15 billion. He needs you to think he's a great guy too. Yeah, and he's been successful in his company, correct? I mean, in general, he's been seen as a successful investor and person. How do you assess that, what's happened? Sure. Well, not coincidentally, Bridgewater's best year has happened before Ray Dalio makes up this whole public persona for himself as the principals. He's a billionaire before the word principals ever come out of his mouth. And for the past 20 years, his animating doctrine has just been talking about this, I mean, this manifesto as opposed to investing. And unbelievably, what's been so surprising for me is he's been so successful at it.

He has. Well, people are looking for advice, right? I mean, look, there's a lot of people who are not what they seem. We were just talking about Elon's outburst at the New York Times event yesterday. People are now seeing a lot behind the curtain, not what they seem. We were just talking about Elon's outburst at the New York Times event yesterday. People are now seeing a lot behind the curtain, essentially. But in writing this book, you spoke to some former employees and also incorporated internal documents and leaked emails. Let's get into some of the parts, and then I'll get Scott to ask a question. But it's full of pretty buzzy anecdotes, whether it's Dalio trying to set up a meeting with

Putin, James Comey serving as a sort of in-house inquisitor and a thorough investigation of an incident and a urinal. It's really fun. It's a fun read. Do you think there's a certain moment or story that gets into the essence of Dalio? You say he also saw Steve Jobs as a model for himself, and he wanted Walter Isaac to write his biography, of course, but Isaac has been smartly passed guess. Although I'm not so smart with Elon. Well, and then he goes, he hires John Rubenstein, who was former deputy to Steve Jobs, and takes John Rubenstein about 12 hours to figure out that this is all horseshit. But of course, John won't tell you about that because he took the $50 million and agreed not to talk about it. So that's the oldest story ever told.

Probably the best example for me of Ray is that it's this incident piss on the floor where Ray goes to the bathroom, stands in a urinal, which has happened to many of us in our lives, looks down and sees liquid on the floor under the urinal. And instead of, well, one, not saying anything because that's polite, or two, perhaps admitting that he, Ray Dalio, could be the origin of this liquid. He orders this huge investigation of what has happened at the urinal and brings in new urinals and sends out emails telling everyone there's piss on the floor. And if you can't aim your pee, you can't work here. And everyone takes this deadly seriously,

as if there actually is something to investigate here. And it's because the principles in Ray Dalio say there's no such thing as a small problem. But nobody can tell Ray to his face, this P, Ray, it might just be yours. I think we'll start, Scott, in on after the P situation. Rob, nice to meet you. So, just to be blunt, I found what I've read about your book, it feels like a hit piece to me. And what would you say,

I feel as if there's an industrial complex in bringing famous, successful people down. And he struck me, I don't know him well, but I've had him on my podcast. He struck me as someone who's very successful, has a big ego, has amassed a ton of wealth,

and is now trying to, you know, share his wisdom, educate. He's had real personal loss. He and his wife lost their son. He's spoken about that very eloquently, and in my opinion, a very raw and honest fashion. I mean, really showed real vulnerability. And what is it about this guy or Ray that you think is bad for the business world or bad for America? Because the sense I get from your book is that you feel there's a bit of a cautionary tale here that he's not the guy he portrays. And the guy he portrays, at least to me, and I think of myself as having decent intuition, is huge ego, but hugely successful in trying to be a net positive for the world. Well, I appreciate the question, Scott. I would say you've bought

into Ray's version of reality by talking to Ray. And that is an Alice in Wonderland reality. It's through the looking glass. And if you take the effort to speak to everyone else around Ray, including the people running Bridgewater right now, they will tell you that that version of reality exists only in Ray's imagination. I'm not saying that you were hoodwinked in any way. I'm just saying that we can't just take these business leaders at what they tell us about themselves. If you take Elon Musk at the version that Elon tells you, he will say,

this is all necessary. No, I'm not suggesting you do. But look, Ray is wonderfully charismatic. I have spent some time with him. He's been nothing but kind to me. But the person that he is behind closed doors is vastly different. I didn't go out to write a hit piece. I just went out to tell you the truth of what he's actually been like for the past 50 years. So one of the things, it's interesting, I don't, Scott, you're really not gonna like my book. I think one of the things that Scott actually does talk about, so it was actually a very good question, Scott, but you talk about the idolatry of innovators in tech. I think it's the same thing with these, whether it's Lee Iacocca. No, it's the idolatry of wealth. It's the idolatry of wealth and that these people suddenly can bring down from high. And in Ray's

case, it's this giant book you can kill a poodle with called Principles. And I think, did he have Principles 2, I think, correct? And 3. And 3, right. Literally, you could kill a poodle with the book. And, you know, it's a rule book for business and life. And I think what happens is they get entranced with their own story, and it's very different. And it doesn't, you know, it doesn't come together with the way they believe. Now, you quote a former employee who says the Principles was a kaleidoscope of contradictions and barely veiled weapon for abuse. It is culty. It is super culty. Now, you quote a former employee who says the Principles was a kaleidoscope of contradictions and barely veiled weapon for abuse.

It is culty. It is super culty. Now, people like it. Netflix had its code or whatever, the one that they fire people with, whatever their book of code or whatever the heck. Lots of companies do have this. By the way, I would imagine Steve Jobs would think this is nonsense. He did not have that kind of stuff. You know, I don't think he had any kind of code, which is interesting.

You mean other than denying his own blood under oath to avoid child support payments? Oh, God, stop it. No idolatry of innovators there, Cara. Okay, because men never do that, Scott. Men never do that. I've never seen a man do that. In any case, do you see merit in the principles? Because a lot of companies do operate with these things. I've seen a lot, and it's successful in some cases. Sometimes the way they behave doesn't gel with the principles. I'm thinking Netflix has won. There's a bunch of companies. AOL at the beginning had a set of principles. Steve liked to do that. It's hard to hew to them, but do you see any merit to this idea of principles and running a company that way? I do. And I would say that even the words, the principles is a misnomer because there are no static set of principles. He's constantly adding and subtracting to them. And he's got a defense on that. You know, life is an evolution and we should be constantly learning.

Probably his favorite principle, which is pain plus reflection equals progress, is something we can all relate to. We've probably all been through periods in our life of pain that helped us, in the end, achieve progress. But what Ray so infrequently talks about is that it's him who's inflicting the pain on you. And there's no degrees with Ray Dalio's principles. There's no amount of pain that seems to not be justifiable for progress. You know, taping a pregnant woman and sending out the recording of that and saying of her crying as you interrogate her over a small thing, you know, a lot of people would say maybe there was another way to do things. Yeah. So talk a little bit.

There was one anecdote, people I know, David McCormick and Dina Powell at their wedding. And David McCormick was his heir apparent kind of thing. Like very, I guess, number two. I don't know if he was number two or number three or whatever. But just the rising young man kind of person under Ray and trainee and at the wedding. Explain this.

This story was just astonishing to me. It happened and neither David nor Dina will tell you it didn't because it did and hundreds of people were there for their wedding party. I know it did. There you go. I've heard from many people. You are accurate. May I just tell you, Scott, he is accurate in this anecdote.

There you go. I've heard from many people. You are accurate. May I just tell you, Scott, he is accurate in this anecdote. Well, David McCormick, who later runs for Senate, is celebrating his wedding to- And he's doing it again. He's doing it again. He'll do it a third time if he doesn't win this time. He's the CEO of Bridgewater at that point.

So he's the number two to Ray Dalio. And he's marrying Dina Powell, who's this very famous former Trump administration official, Goldman Sachs. And Ray Dalio is throwing this wedding party at the Bellhaven Club in Greenwich, Connecticut. And Ray gets up to give his speech. And he says, among other things, he says, David has found the best party girl in America to marry. America to marry. And it's just one of those scratch the record moments. But worse than that is that David knows he can't actually tell Ray that this was not the right thing to say. Because despite all of Ray's principles about trust in truth and always talk about radical transparency, you can't actually tell Ray the hard truth. So David just steams and gets embarrassed in front of all of his family and friends. And Dina, by the way, embarrassed most of all. It's just, if I made it up, it's stranger than fiction. You wouldn't believe me. Scott?

So, Robin, I realize I'm sounding like an apologist for Ray here. You are. I worked at Morgan Stanley for a couple of years, and I worked at hedge funds off and on or advising for the last 20 years. And I would say just until the last decade, the first word I would use to describe the culture was abusive. And that is it was this testosterone-filled, abused child syndrome where I worked around the clock seven days a week, so were you. You were a genius if you were a bit of an asshole and drove people really hard. And it was just a toxic culture. How much of this, at a place like Bridgewater, where people are making a shit ton of money and they could always leave, and maybe they did leave,

I don't know. But how much of it, if any, would you assign to just the culture of finance and hedge funds? It's that culture on steroids. And I would say the big difference between that and your prior work experience is probably most of the people you were working with did not claim that if you didn't follow the principles, you weren't going to achieve a higher level version of yourself. They didn't say that you should ignore your own instincts, your own values, and adopt new ones. I think that the idea that there's plenty of people in New York and San Francisco and every city on Earth who are willing to put up with a lot to make money is perfectly fine. And that's their choice. The difference here is that he's saying you're part of the family.

and that's their choice. The difference here is that he's saying you're part of the family, and it becomes very difficult to sort of leave the family even when you are sustaining this high level of abuse. You're saying a culture kind of breached into a cult. It kind of became, it went from, it almost has a bit of a Scientology feel to it. It has a big Scientology feel to it, and even one of their former employees actually tries to blow the whistle on this. He tries to tell Charlie Rose, you can't spell culture without C-U-L-T, and he gets put on trial and fired. Bridgewater is well aware of those comparisons. There's, aside the differences at Bridgewater, if you're part of, if you believe it's a cult, you're also getting paid a ton of money. So, Scientology is paying you pennies to toil in God knows some bunker in LA. But just to follow up on that, as the naked capitalist here, they built the largest hedge fund in the world, paid a lot of taxes, created a lot of economic security for a lot of people.

I mean, doesn't that count for a lot? But does that justify? I would say just because they did that. I think that's a fair question. I don't know. I mean, these people are the most talented, some of the most talented, sought-after people in the world. If it was that bad, they could have left. These aren't people, but this isn't forced labor out of Shenzhen.

It's not forced labor, no. But there are definitely some similarities to, I guess, what the lawyers would like me to call personality-based organizations. I don't believe that Morgan Stanley operates with a strict doctrine, with a charismatic leader in the woods of Connecticut, with harsh punishments to those who try to leave. Yeah, it's religious. It becomes religious. It's nonsense. It's literal nonsense. And I think tech companies, a lot of them do this. Some of them do it. And it's all bullshit. Every bit of it. They break the rules that they make. Whether it's Google don't be evil, this and that. This is a tough culture. That's just the way it is. Like it or leave it. Thinking of Microsoft in the early days, just a tough culture. They didn't pretend it wasn't. But when these CEOs try to become more than, they're not satisfied with the money. They want

the acclaim and they want the love and they want to be business Jesus, essentially. So many of them want to be business Jesus now. Again, he was wealthy beyond belief before he ever said the principles. So, what he really wanted was to be loved by this larger group. And I mean, in that, I guess we could say he's probably one of the most relatable characters of all, because wouldn't we all want more than just money? There's a lot of us who are desperate for other people's affirmation, right? Yeah, yeah. I don't know. There's only one business Jesus, and that is my co-host Barbara here. That's your name. That's your new name. Fanta Ross, broken as Jonathan, you're Barbara. Let me ask a final question. What is he doing now? He's supposedly retired to his monk ship or whatever, Pope ship.

What is he, he's really running it still, correct? Where is Bridgewater as a business? It's a, you know, it's been a tough market. How is it doing and compared to others in the sector? So the firm has shrunk a lot, but it was so large that it is still the world's largest hedge fund. So good for them. It is, he's technically retired, but he has like three

titles there. He's still trying to push to start, as he suggested, starting his own fund inside there. The truth of the Ray Dalio story is that he can't ever actually really leave. He can't really admit that he is replaceable because, well, he just, he refuses to. He's just still talking this week, going at his state dinner as he's embraced by the White House. So, he just, he refuses to. You know, he's just still talking this week, going at his state dinners. He's embraced by the White House. So, you know, almost everyone at Bridgewater would just hope he disappears,

but he seems completely temperamentally incapable of that. And does he have control over the company? He has a lot of stock. He doesn't have technical control, but I think we need to ask ourselves, who's in charge? Is it the guy with the CEO title, or is it the guy who at any moment could go on TV? All he has to do is say the sentence, I don't have confidence in the people running this firm, and they're in a world of pain. Yeah, yeah. Scott, any last questions?

What's your next project, Rod? Well, you looked at the industry. I mean, to benchmark and really have an accurate depiction here, I imagine you looked at a lot of leaders at similar companies. Are there any organizations you would contrast with Bridgewater as having really healthy cultures? Well, my next project, after your questions, is about Scott Galloway. That's got to be a leaflet. That's going to be a leaflet. It's called Erectile Dysfunction, a podcast, and the Jungle Cat Carousel. There's your title. That book is done.

Boom. Portfolio Penguin Random House. That's right. I'm sorry. Go ahead. We're with Macmillan and his family. I will say I haven't found another project that is as fun and as dark as this one. I think Netflix has a lot of similarities. I honestly, I know you guys have talked about this today. The next five years

of Elon Musk, it just seems impossible that this doesn't get- It's going to Howard Hughes, like I said. We're headed to Howard Hughes. Yeah. Rob, could you move to the Valley? There's just a lot of fodder that you would enjoy and probably be good at depicting. Such fucking nonsense. You know what I hate? I'll tell you, Rob, the one thing, whenever I'm around some Silicon Valley people who've climbed Mount Everest, they try to equate going to Everest with business. And I'm like, okay, so dead bodies and trash at the place you shouldn't be at the top of the earth where you take advantage of labor. I was like, it has

nothing. Well, it actually has a lot to do with your life here. But they always try to, you know, if you can make the peak and survive Everest, that's the same thing. I just can't with the, I've covered finance for most of my career. And something I like about finance is they don't, they often don't claim to be changing the world. No, they're just making money. And that's, there's something healthy, I think, about that. And Ray is so different because he really does say it's not, he claims to hate wealth.

He just happens to be worth $16 billion. So I'm looking for another figure like that. Yeah. Oh, Elon, I think is where you want to, yeah. Because it is going to end in a Howard Hughes collapse. What's his latest attack on you is he just given up or oh he keeps uh he now he says i just made it all up that it's all all fiction no i don't think you did he can't talk about the facts because at bridgewater everything is recorded so if he

really wanted the truth out there he could just release the recordings of everything i wrote about and people could decide that was fuck that was the creepiest. The recording everything was the creepiest thing. I did interview for a job there when I was 23. And I interviewed for, I think, every job in the New York tri-state area. And he's threatened me that they recorded those interviews and have notes and they'll release them. And I can tell you, I'm sure I sound like an asshole. I was 23. I would have done anything. tell you, I'm sure I sound like an asshole. I was 23. I would have done anything. Well, you're clearly holding a grudge. Anyway, the book is called The Fund, Ray Dalio,

Bridgewater Associates, and the Unraveling of a Wall Street Legend. It's a great book. People should read it. And I'm sorry that he bought Google. I kind of love that he bought. He bought, Scott, you don't know this, but he bought Google keywords for an interview I did with him about principles against his book, which made me laugh. It's great. It's very funny because if you Google me, Rob Copeland, the fund, instead you get Kara Swisher, which is an honor, but a little annoying, let's be honest. Come on. That's good. That's a good one. You got to respect for that one.

Respect. That one I love. So I bought ads at the train stations in Connecticut, all in Fairfield County, where all his employees came in. Oh, my God. What did they say? Oh, for the book? Yeah, it's just a quote saying- This is a war of the roses. I know, but he got me. I didn't think of Google AdWords. So for the next book. Yeah. Oh, well done. Oh, I got to get on that right now. I better get on that right now before

Elon does stuff. Anyway, on the back of my book that's coming out instead of, you know, I don't like blurbs. And so I've put all the insults of the tech leaders to me on the back. It's all there. Oh my gosh. I love that. Yeah. It's really good. It's really good. Anyway, Rob, thank you so much. Keep doing the great work. All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails. and having your unused data roll over to the following month. Every month. At Fizz, you always get more for your money. Terms and conditions for our different programs and policies apply. Details at Fizz.ca.

Okay, Barbara, let's hear some wins and fails. I like calling you Barbara. You go first. I think... Let me guess, you don't have any. You're irritable, but you didn't prep. No, I'm not irritable. I sat next to, at a party last night, Jennifer Newsom, who is married to Gavin Newsom.

She's a documentary filmmaker, a bunch of other things. She's terrific. She's a terrific person. And she reminded me, and I had totally forgotten this, DeSantis Newsom debate is tonight. Sean Hannity is doing it. Very smart on Hannity's part, actually. I think this is a really interesting win. I think it's going to be actually good, and a debate about policy and where we're going as a country.

I'm excited about it. I am. I don't think it's going to be a silly circus. I'm more excited about this than any Republican debate so far. Yeah, I am too. I think it'll be great. They should have it out, right, in a way. I'm sure there'll be insults and this and that, but let's have some real significant. I've have it out, right? In a way, not, I'm sure there'll be insults and this and that, but let's have some real significant. I've seen Gavin on, he's been on Hannity, did very well. And it was, and actually he made Hannity better, if you can believe it. Like it was, it was. He made Hannity more likable, I thought. Not just likable, but like, okay, let's actually

stop yammering and making stupid, you know. And talk. And acknowledge points. Let's talk and acknowledge points. So I'm looking, I think this is going to be a win. It's a future win. It's a future win. And I think the fail is obviously Linda Iaccarino. I don't know what else to say. It's Elon is, is obviously something's wrong. And whether it's a character issue or, or something else. And I don't feel sorry for him in any way whatsoever. But all the enablers around him have really, someone has to step up here and say something, and nobody will. And that's the fail. So there you have it. There you go.

So I guess my win, very basic, is the life of Charlie Munger. Oh, great guy. Died at, I think he was just about to turn 100 or was 100. Yeah, 99. 99. A veteran, served in World War II. And I love guys who, you know, very early on can equate investing to either biology or life.

And he was, I just thought he was pithy and smart and a great, in addition to being a great investor, great storyteller, always talked about the importance of family, country. I just, I like that sort of, it's sort of a, I think he sort of marks the age and probably marks the end of an era in terms of that type of investing and a focus on, you know, life as seen through the lens of an investor. And he just seemed like he led kind of a great American life. Good guy, pleasant, good to people, you know, just lovely. There was never any two parts of this guy, right? Like we're just talking about Ray Dalio or Elon Musk or anybody else, just a contributor. Let's just say a contributor to everything.

And also, and we don't like to speak this nakedly about capitalism, but if you had invested $100 in Berkshire Hathaway when Charlie Munger joined, it would now be worth $400,000. And so people who use their skills to create wealth and economic security for other people deserve a tip of the hat. He created a lot of economic security for a lot of people. And also, I like the fact he was fearless and was one of the first people. And he took a lot of shit for this. And I didn't get nearly as much, but I could relate to the shit he was saying when he said Bitcoin and crypto was rat poison. He just straight out of the gates.

Bitcoin and crypto was rat poison. He just straight out of the gates, didn't fall into the need to try and feel young or try and feel cool and embrace it and said, this is supporting terrorism. I mean, he just came right out of the gates and said, this is just, this is awful. And I respect that he was, he didn't have a screen, he didn't have a filter, but most of everything. Simple life. Yeah. Simple life. These guys, both of them. You know, I've been out there and have met him and had dinner with Warren Buffett. They really, you know, they're a type of a Midwestern guy, you know, but just very, I have to say, lovely. I had a lovely dinner.

A simple, just a different kind of attitude. Just not an asshole. Not an asshole. Like, really quite. I don't know. There's so many. Nobody lives up to the has been totally perverted is this word apartheid. And Israel has been accused of engaging in apartheid against Gaza and the Palestinian people. And the definition of apartheid is a policy or a system of segregation or discrimination on grounds of race. So, segregation or discrimination on grounds of race or religion, you know, what have you. And I just want to go over some numbers here. Because the UN had a resolution basically using the term apartheid over and over when condemning Israel.

using the term apartheid over and over when condemning Israel. And of course, these Arab nations all lined up and said that Israel, accused Israel of being engaged in apartheid against Palestinians in Gaza. So, let's just look at these Arab nations and how many Jews were there. In Syria, there were 40,000 Jews in 1948. Now, there are zero. In Iran, 100,000 Jews in 1948. there are zero. In Iran, 100,000 Jews in 1948. Now there are 8,500. In Morocco, 265,000. Today, there are 2,100. In Algeria, there were 140,000 Jews. Now there are 200. In Tunisia, 105,000 in 1948, 1,000 today. Let's talk about today. There are 2.1 million Arabs in Israel. They serve on the Supreme Court. They own businesses. They are elected to the Knesset. Arabs in Gaza, right? There were 80,000 in 1948, and now there are 2 million. So, stop misusing the terms apartheid and ethnic cleansing. And the double standard here, cleansing. And the double standard here, perversion, dysmorphic view of what these terms mean, whether it's genocide or ethnic cleansing or apartheid, no one actually wants

to determine or actually do the diligence of figuring out what these words actually mean and then comparing these nations and these organizations relative to Israel. And I find it, again, just another example of how we continue to find reasons to persecute a population that's 0.2% of the world. And this is just another example of what I see even across the UN, across media, across a younger generation that has decided to just throw these words out without actually taking the time to get a fucking dictionary, and then contrast the definition of these words against history and reality in the region. So, my loss is the continued perversion of these very emotionally charged words

that is nothing but thinly veiled, continued, obnoxious rot that is anti-Semitism. It's also ignorance, Scott. It's ignorance of history, too. I mean, I think you have to, you know, I've had some great discussions with my kids about this, and, you know, they'll take, if they will learn, you know what I mean? Like, some of it, that is more complex. Just like we were talking about at the beginning, you know, like, you know, like the Biden administration's doing deals with the Saudis. Okay. They condemned them before. This is the world, unfortunately, speaking of the world Kissinger, right? That's how it works. It's complex. And that's what it's hard for young people to see, the complexity of things,

I think. Okay, Barbara, thank you so much. We want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. Okay, Scott, that's the show. We'll be back on Tuesday with more pivots. We're also busy taping holiday episodes that you'll really like, and we've got more to come. Scott, read us out. Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie and her tot engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows, Mule Severio, and Gaddy McBain. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to

podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Kara, have a great rest of the week and weekend.