Pivot - Elon's Drug Denial, Trump's Tariff Play, and Taylor Swift's Master Move

Episode Date: June 3, 2025

Kara and Scott discuss Senator Joni Ernst's callous comments about Medicaid cuts, Texas's new law requiring app stores to verify ages, and Taylor Swift's blockbuster deal to get the rights to her masters. Then, Elon leaves The White House with a literal black eye, and denies a New York Times report about his ketamine use. Plus, Trump raises tariffs yet again, and lashes out at China. Watch this episode on the ⁠Pivot YouTube channel⁠. Follow us on Instagram and Threads at ⁠@pivotpodcastofficial⁠. Follow us on Bluesky at ⁠@pivotpod.bsky.social⁠ Follow us on TikTok at ⁠@pivotpodcast⁠. Send us your questions by calling us at 855-51-PIVOT, or at ⁠nymag.com/pivot⁠. Help us plan for the future of Pivot by filling out a brief survey: ⁠⁠⁠voxmedia.com/survey⁠⁠⁠. Thank you! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Peter Kafka, the host of Channels, the show about what happens when media and tech collide. And this week I'm talking to Katie Drummond, who runs WIRED. She's found a way to breathe new life into that publication by covering news. We started covering Doge, like several stories a day, every single day. And after like a week, I sort of looked around and was like, where is everyone else? That's This Week on channels, wherever you listen to your favorite podcast. What would I do with it if I found your dick? That's an interesting question.

Put it in the refrigerator. Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher. And I'm Scott Galloway. How are you doing, Scott? Where are you? What's behind you? Is there another AI situation? Another situation? No, I'm in the fine hotel in South Beach. I was in Paris over the weekend. I went to the French Open, which was lovely. And then I jumped on a plane yesterday and came here,

forgot my computer on the plane. Which is part of the course. What? What do you mean you forgot your computer on the plane? A third computer I've left on a plane this year. Year to date, I've left three computers on planes. Why? Why?

Because if my dick wasn't attached, you'd find it on a card table next to a script of Goodfellas and Soho, Kara. I'm so glad I didn't find that. Yeah. What would I do with it if I found your deck? That's an interesting question. There you go.

Put it in the refrigerator. So anyways, I lose everything, but I'm safe and sound to the faena, and my good friend Pablo Doritos, he saved my ass or bacon and got me a new Macintosh, and Drew and the team have fired it up, and now I'm doing podcasts. Are you ever getting your computer back?

The wonderful thing about technology now is it doesn't matter. I'll have a new one for me when I get back to New York and they're dumb appliances. It's all in the cloud now. So some lucky flight attendant has a lot of porn coming his way this weekend. I left things on planes and I go and find them. I go to the lost and found and I dig through it and I found all my stuff dispersed, all kinds of things. So I go and look for things when I leave them.

Yeah, I do the trade-off. I was going to go back to the airport and I figured it would cost me half a day and I don't want to do it. I'd rather get another computer. You're not worried about people getting access to your things on that laptop? All your secrets? Yeah laptop, all your secrets. Yeah. I don't know. So they want to know what Coq Gobbler site I'm spending time at or what-

Yeah. I have a lot of personal stuff on my computer. Yeah. My life isn't that interesting. It's pretty much a rested adolescence and someone who doesn't like themselves. It's not going to be that interesting a journey. But you're right about that your stuff moves with you throughout the cloud now. Your computer doesn't matter. It's just a dumb appliance tapping into the cloud. I lose a lot of laptops.

I think it's much more damaging when you lose your phone, because that takes a while to set up. Yeah, that's right. I noticed at your apartment you have a drawer of AirPods and extra things for your computer because you seem to probably lose them, right? So they're sitting there. I think there's a few things in your life that really

can out luxury and economic security, and one for me is I don't have keys. I cannot have keys. I'm physically incapable of holding on the keys and I have no keys. What about like a wallet? You have a wallet though, right? No, now I just use my phone.

Although actually I carry my black card because it signals masculinity. Oh, that's sad. So I do like to throw that down and say, daddy's here. Daddy's here and he's bringing. You throw it down. You throw it. Oh yeah, that's right. Yeah, you can't just place it down delicately.

That makes that big titanium sound like, that's right. That's right, mate with me and your kids are more likely to survive than if you mate with someone who has a discover card. You're not mating anymore, so why do you need to throw down the card? You never stop wanting though. Okay. You never stop wanting. So you do it via the card. Okay. All right.

Yeah. Anyways, what are you doing? Enough about me. I'm in San Francisco. Again? Yes. I'm here for a week. Why are you there? I'm filming a secret. Again? Yes, I'm here for a week. Why are you there? I'm filming a secret thing. Filming a secret thing? Yeah.

I can't talk about it because Steve will talk about it a lot. Oh yeah, right, because you're so big time. Whatever. You're so big time. I'm filming a thing. I'm going to be jumping in the Pacific Ocean. NPR on cuts to the National Forestry Service DEI Department with special report with Kara Swisher.

Yes, that's what I'm doing. But I will be jumping in the Pacific, eating oysters and hanging out with my brother, among other things, part of this filming. Yeah, it's nice, yeah. So I love being in San Francisco, it's really nice. Is this your health thing that you rope me into? What? Yeah, you're doing it with me.

Yes, you are doing it with me. You have to. This is not a Monday. Our relationship is over if you're not in it because I will cry. I will cry. I will cry. Yeah, I'm excited. Yeah, we're going to do it.

It's going to be fun. It's a thing that has to do with health that I'm doing for an organization I have a relationship with. Does it rhyme with CNN? Yes, it does. Dockert's not Fox. It's as much as I can say or else I'll get a call from one of their- Kara Swisher on the New American Mail from Fox Reports.

Deal with your debt and don't call me when I'm trying to make some money for you. Anyway, I'm here and then it's going to be fun. I was going to have the kids be out here and Amanda, but Claire is in public school, so she's there till the end of June, which is interesting. So she must finish her. What's interesting about that, I'm still waiting for you to be part. I'm just saying, she's still in school.

So anyway, I'm here and I'm going to have a great time. Do you guys have big plans for the summer? What did the Squishers do over the summer? No, I'm going to be taping this series. But go to Vermont. I think we'll probably go to Vermont. We'll do- Sorry.

We're not the Galloways that are like go from Aspen to Dingdea. What's the point of making all this money to go to Vermont? I don't want to go to Aspen and hang out with you. Why would I want to do that? Vermont is pretty. You so want to hang out with me. I do, I like hanging out with you. You so want to hang out with me in Aspen.

But let me say, I'm going to do a great vacation next year. Next year, next summer, I'm going to do Greece. When you hit 70, you're going to start slowing down. No, I'm going to rent a boat. And you're going to stop and smell the roses. Italy or Greece, that is next summer. That is what's going to happen. That's what's going to happen. Oh, I love both those places. Yeah, I'm going to rent a boat. And you're going to stop and smell the roses. Italy or Greece, that is next summer. That is what's going to happen. Oh, I love both those places. Yeah, I'm going to do something really... I had a big birthday party.

When I do a good thing, I do a nice thing. Anyway, I put away the Christmas tree. I'm not going to get into that. We've got a lot to get to today, including Elon Musk and Ketamine, obviously, Trump's latest fight with China and Taylor Taylor's blockbuster business move. But first, Senator Joni Ernst of Iowa had some very comforting words about Medicaid cuts for constituents at a town hall on Friday. Let's listen to a clip.

Well, we all are going to die. So, for heaven's sakes. For heaven's sakes, folks. Oh my God. But thank goodness, she's such an asshole to her constituents. But thank goodness she's such an asshole to her constituents, but thank goodness she apologized afterwards. And Instagram, here's what she had to say.

Uh oh. I made an incorrect assumption that everyone in the auditorium understood that yes, we are all going to perish from this earth. So I apologize. And I'm really, really glad that I did not have to bring up the subject of the tooth fairy as well. My God. What?

What? She didn't, she did a non-apology apology. She was making fun of people for being angry at her. She is not Joni, you're not Trump. Just so you know, you don't do a good job. You sound like an asshole. So it's interesting. They're all trying to cosplay Trump and none of them are good at it.

So she was like, you assholes who thought I was mad for saying we're all going to die when people were concerned about Medicaid. I mean, she's not a serious public servant if she can't be like, suck it up and answer a question and then she trolls them like a 12-year-old boy. It's insane. I think more importantly, do you know what? I have a common after my vasectomy with a Christmas tree. Where this is going? Go ahead.

We both have decorative balls. Ah. Back to Joni. Okay. Go ahead. Why not? We both have decorative balls. Ah, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha,

ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, Media has created such a strong profit incentive in getting people pitted against each other and enraging them. And then at the same time, speedballing that rage by shoving all of the prosperity that everyone else seems to be enjoying, that people are just so upset and so angry, and that they respond to the Republican Party being a little bit cruel and coarse. And I think unfortunately, across the Republican Party, you little bit cruel and coarse. And I think unfortunately across the Republican Party, you're seeing this adoption of a narrative where they conflate leadership with cruelty and coarseness. And I just don't think you ever would have heard

a Senator say that. I don't- I was shocked. I was sort of like, really? Like, but they're all cosplaying Trump. Is it effective? Like think of it from a marketing point of view. I could tell you, no one thought it was funny.

With Trump, it might be funny. You might take it. Do you think it works across other, and especially, I'm sorry to tell you, Joni, doesn't work for a woman. It doesn't work for a woman to be a dick. That's my feeling and I hate to be sexist about it, but she seemed like such a stupid little shithead.

But what do you think? Yeah, I think it reflects something deeper and more uncomfortable about the United States and that is we've decided that, you know, kind of cruelty is the point that you can cut America first. Okay, so we're not, we're closing down hospitals in Myanmar

for people with serious diseases or food kitchens in war-torn parts of Ukraine, but that somehow has been conflated with leadership, the coarseness and cruelty. And I think that these Republican town halls have been awful for Republicans. They make for really good TikTok moments, but I worry they're not indicative

of how a lot of America feels, where America is, America feels that, okay, you have these, these democratic elitists that after they make their money with low taxes, all of a sudden get very concerned about me. 40% of American households have some sort of medical or dental debt. And every day, 210 times a day on my phone, I'm reminded about people having extraordinary lives

that I'm not participating in. And then I have a social media platform that I spend five or seven hours a day on trying to convince me that it's my neighbor who's the enemy, not people pouring out, not soldiers pouring over the border in Ukraine. And I think there's just so much rage in America and so much anger against other Americans

that an unfortunately large number of Americans kind of enjoy this harshness and this cruelty. And distinct of what Joni's doing or Senator Ernst, I just think we've lost a little bit, a lot of at the hands of, I don't think people recognize just how much our discourse has been coarsened by social media and that people have been, people have been, had people in the time. I was thinking just about dating. Do you remember when you were in your 20s and 30s and you were dating,

do you remember the politics of anyone you dated? It didn't come up. And you didn't, there was a general sense that as Americans, we were these good people and we had a certain comity and a certain thing in common. You know what? Men and women liked each other. I've been thinking about this a lot. Americans, we were these good people and we had a certain comity and a certain thing in common. You know what? Men and women liked each other. I've been thinking about this a lot. I think social media has done a great job of convincing the genders that the

other gender is the problem, that men believe that women's ascent is the culprit for their descent. And that's not true at all. Whereas women think it's the patriarchy and that men don't have problems, they are the problem. We've convinced that gender is the greatest alliance in history to dislike each other. Yeah, I think there was hatred before that.

I think it becomes manifest when she does. She may have been irritated at this town hall, for example, because someone yelled at her. By the way, if you're a senator, fucking man up, Joni. If someone yells at you, have the grace to be able to answer without being a douche nozzle. But I think that she is doing something that is coarse and rude, and I don't think it works.

I think people are like, what? Like, why are you such, I think there is still a sense of certain decorum, and I agree with you, I was always worried about social media spilling out into the world, right? And it has, whether you're in a car, people yell at you on the street, there's more and more and more of that,

that people behave offline like they do online. That said, I don't think doubling down on douchery is the way to go, and I do think people are going, there's going to be a reaction to it. Um, when it's other people, not Trump. I think people get tired of people already tired of it with Trump. I think they don't look, you see losses in all these places that they shouldn't be losing in. And I do think these common, I think there's a real opening for someone

with common decency and calm at the fuck down everybody. I do. I don't think everyone wants to stay, spend think there's a real opening for someone with common decency and calm the fuck down everybody. I do. I don't think everyone wants to state spend their lives as a 12 year old asshole. But it has to be decency. So for example, I think the real opportunity that Democrats are missing is to propose an alternative to this tax bill where we seize this enormous white space of the adult in the room. Right. We'll say, okay, this is our plan.

We're going to means test social security and raise the age limit. We're going to dramatically lower the exemption for the trust exemption. We are going to increase taxes on corporations and the wealthy, and we are going to across the board hold Medicaid, social security, and military spending flat for the next 15 years and even cut it 2 percent a year. Within eight years, we're going to reduce the deficit years and even cut it 2% a year. And within eight years, we're going to reduce the deficit from two trillion a year to 200

billion a year. And what they would do is Fox News and CNN would all line up these bills next to each other and say, okay, one expands the deficit or adds to the deficit three and three quarters trillion dollars. This one will reduce the deficit. It'll never pass. It has no hopes, but it would position the Democrats as the adults in the room. This is Rahm Emanuel saying this,

just forget about the for reals, talk about what you do, whether you're going to make it happen or not. But instead, we're clutching our pearls and highlighting these very real, very ugly things that are happening rather than saying, okay, you guys have to be more than what's bad about what they're doing.

You have to propose your own solution. Agreed. I agree with you. I do think there's, but I think there's, what I'm saying is in her doing this, this is what she's got. The opening is to not just be the adult in the room, be the like good person in the room, right? Like the one who's gonna help people.

And I do think people get tired of the dunking. They do. They don tired of the dunking. They do. They don't like doing it themselves. Most people don't. And they don't like it being done to them. And so I do think there's an opening. The adult in the room is a good way to put it,

but a kind adult in the room. And I think there's a huge opening for a Democrat to be like that. Agreed. Speaking of adults, Texas Governor Greg Abbott has signed a bill requiring an app stores to verify users' ages to protect children online. The bill, which will go into effect at the start of next year, makes Texas the second state to patch such legislation following Utah. Apple has argued the strategy will threaten the privacy of all users.

They have a good argument that way. Meta argues the app stores are the best party for the job. They're trying to trade it back and forth. It's a really complex topic because it does come into privacy issues at the same time. You and I agree that there's got to be some way. I just don't know who should be policing this situation. Would we be in a better place if all states passed similar legislation? Are we better off having hope in a bill like COSA or whatever. How do you feel about this? Because who is the one that should,

cigarette manufacturers kind of have to have those warnings, and the people who sell the cigarettes have to not sell it to kids, even though sometimes that happens, same thing with liquor. What are your thoughts on this? I feel like you know more about this than I do. When people come up with, when they're faced with the issue of is it at the device level or at the app level,

I think the answer is yes. And that is with tobacco, I think both retailers and manufacturers face liability. And my sense is, OK, in terms of age gating, it feels like it should be at the device level because it seems like it would be more efficient and practical. Right, you cover everybody. Yeah, to say, okay, because we can track your activity across all apps,

we have a pretty good sense for what your age is, and we don't allow anyone under the age of 16 to have car keys or operate a car, so why would we let anyone under the age of 16 operate... I don't think anyone under the age of 16 should be able to operate a smartphone. I don't think you put a video arcade, a porn site, a Netflix, and a casino in a 15 year old's pocket. I just don't think that's a good idea. And, and then they have an incentive to make it so complicated that parents

can't figure out parental controls. We tried to implement parental controls for my son last weekend and within about three minutes, he'd figured out the password and reinstalled everything. I guess what I'm talking about is at the device level maybe, but I still think the app should be on the hook for a second layer of protection. What are your thoughts? I think you need to wear two condoms here.

I think the difficulty is, say when you go to a bar, they look at your license for a second and you keep it. So it's not a privacy issue. I think the idea of Apple collecting people's data like that seems a little troubling. Privacy? Well, because they- I don't get that argument at all.

Well, no, that's their argument is that that they would be keeping the data of people in ways that they don't now, right? They don't know who picks up their phone or whoever is. And so there are problematic situations of how you store that information and who knows who can see it, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So there's no question there's not a privacy issue because it's a persistent validation, right? As opposed to where do you have a persistent validation except with the government and your license plate? I suppose in a way with airlines, when you fly, when you give them your data or your birthday and stuff like that,

so there's always going to be a privacy problem and there's going to be people who steal it or some issues around it. But it seems to me the device is where it should be. And at the same time, there should be some liability for, in this case, Apple is the retailer, I guess, and Metta is the cigarette manufacturer, right? And so I think both of them should have some culpability. They should be working together rather than fighting over who has to deal with it in some fashion to make,

especially the top 10 biggest apps, for example, should all be working with all the device makers to make, not just Apple, but Google and everything else. So probably the device maker. But there's the whole privacy argument I find is so cynical and indefensible because I have to give up my privacy every time I go on a get on a plane. Not only that, they get to go through my liquids.

They get to, they know where I'm going. And by the way, if I buy a one way ticket, they violated my privacy and they're more likely to do an additional security screening. They know my age, they know my status. They look, the guy at immigration looks through my passport and asks me, when was I in Israel? And what was I doing there?

You Americans, part of a modern society is the following compact. You agree to have a certain amount of your privacy violated in exchange for utility. And what they're claiming is that the privacy violation of a 15 year old knowing their age and identity, think about how ridiculous that is. So instead we're gonna enable this person to give their data and have their data molested by the CCP of who they are, their preferences, their sexual orientation, what they do, what their key relationships are. I mean, the notion that these people give a flying fuck

about their privacy is just so, it's just not... Yeah, I agree. It's laughable. I think we should have a national bill like this and we should know who's using our phones and on the road to younger people being restricted from using social media. And I'm sorry, kids, that's what's gotten, I think,

because we're old grandpas. Well, but one of the most powerful forces in the universe is biology, specifically the ways we change, mature, evolve, grow, and die. And I don't think we spent enough time talking about what a powerful metric and indicator and arbiter of these rules age is. For example, if you were under the age of 16,

you should not have a smartphone. If you were under the age of 21, you should not have alcohol. if you are under the age of 16, you should not have a smartphone. If you are under the age of 21, you should not have alcohol. If you're under the age of 18, you should not be allowed to join the military. If you are over the age of 75, you shouldn't be allowed to run for fucking precedent. Yeah, you're right. Instead, we've decided that we have

this amazing indicator that is 95 percent of Americans over a certain age are incapable of doing a certain thing. A 100 percent of people under the age of 16 do not make great decisions around drugs. So why would we not leverage this amazing thing called biology as indicated by this other thing called age and time? For all of time, it has been a consistent indicator of someone's cognitive ability decline,

and yet we decided with technology and with presidential elections, we're just gonna ignore biology. You have convinced me. Biology is undefeated. I actually said that this weekend as someone I'm like, my God, I'm quoting Scott Galloway. What is wrong with me? None of us is getting out of here alive, Kara.

All right, so anyway, we're with Texas. God, we're with Texas, but we are. All right, also, this is something I want. Listen, I'm going to put a challenge to Scott Galloway here. I want you to have a serious take without a single Taylor joke. Taylor Swift has regained ownership of her master recordings after a years long attempt. Swift's masters were previously owned by private equity firm Shamrock Capital,

which purchased them from music manager Scooter Braun in 2020. The rights includes Swiss first six albums, music videos, concert films, and more. She remade a lot of the songs that were on the Masters Taylor's version in order to go around them, and they've become very popular actually. On most of the services, you get Swiss version of her Masters,

but she didn't own them. She reportedly paid around $360 million in the deal. I would like a serious take. What do you think about this, about her doing this? I think it's capitalism. I think if she wants to own her own catalog, that's her business. I don't think she has any, I mean, she's an adult. I think this is pretty simple.

I don't think there's much more to this than it's a marketplace and she has the rights along with anybody else to buy them. Why is it good to have them? This was what I was sort of interested in. Well, she gets control. So for example, we wanted, when we were doing the intro song, which we spent six months trying to figure out for Pivot, right?

It was just too serious. It wasn't right. So we wanted a new one. And I wanted, I thought, you know, we got to pay the money and we'd be worth it. We should get Tracy Chapman's Revolution. We both love Tracy Chapman. We thought it was a great song. And somebody immediately said, no, Tracy Chapman doesn't license her songs

because she's worried, she's worried that some car company's going to license fast cars. So this is what she gets. She doesn't have a toilet paper company or a suppository using Shake It Off. I mean, so she gets control. Good, good idea. Anybody who has, and this is really going to go crazy in AI, when all of a sudden, you know,

when all of a sudden, you know, Lincoln starts giving people advice because whoever owns his image and likeness licenses to AI. Or if Warren Buffett doesn't make serious, doesn't have serious IP protection that his heirs will agree to, his heirs in three generations, some kid who's got a cocaine habit and has squandered all of his inheritance says, well, I'm gonna start an investment app

using Warren Buffett, his likeness and his image. So the advantage to her is that she has other considerations than just purely monetizing every ounce and every dollar out of her songs. Yeah. It's a smart boat to have on them. It's worth it to her. It's worth it. It's worth it to her. She can control her legacy. Yeah.

She can decide how it's used and how it's not used. Yeah. She proves herself to be a very good business person. And at the time, it was the standard deal to give away almost all your rights. And so it is really interesting that a lot of artists, including Ryan Coogler and others, are getting their rights in some fashion, whatever. The deals are getting very interesting in that regard. And the reasons are very many.

In her case, it is to be able to monetize it in the way she wants to monetize it versus some hedge fund, for example. So smart move by Taylor Swift. She owns herself. She's a young woman. She'll be able to benefit from this for many, many decades to come, I suspect. And she wants her legacy to be what she wants it to be. So good for her.

Good for her. Good for her. Good, not making one. Taylor Swift, very nice. Okay, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, Elon leaves Doge with a black eye, a literal one, and a new report Good for her. Good. Not making one. Taylor Swift, very nice. Okay, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, Elon leaves Doge with a black eye. A literal one and a new report on his ketamine use.

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That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com, Upwork.com. Scott, we're back. Elon Musk says the New York Times was lying their ass off. I didn't know they had an ass. In a new report about his alleged drug use, he posted on X that he tried the prescription ketamine a few years ago, and while it helps for getting out of the, quote, dark mental holes, he hasn't taken it since, which is not true because he told Don Lemon he was taking it last year.

The article claims Musk used ketamine often and also took ecstasy and psychedelic mushrooms in the last year. The Times is standing by its reporting quite strongly, noting the story was based on interviews, private texts, documents, and photos. The drug use story dropped just as Elon had his big Oval Office farewell, which was weird, where he sported a black eye he says came from his five-year-old son. After the sendoff, Trump insisted Elon's not really leaving, saying, must we back and forth since Doge is his baby.

Talk a little bit first about the drug use, which I think everybody is so clear. What was interesting, the Internet was populated with videos of him looking like he was on drugs. You can't find a video where he's not doing those weird neck eye thing that he does all the time. Talk a little bit about the drug use and then go to the Oval Office press conference and

sort of any takeaways from the whole Doge saga. Just so people are clear, Elon's right-hand man Steve Davis also left Doge. Like Elon, he was special government employee limited. A lot of people are leaving, all the people that came in and took over, Steve Davis' wife is leaving. They're dropping off. We'll get to the NASA head in a second,

but talk a little bit about the drugs and the legacy of Doge. Well, sure. But the key piece of data here is that Taylor Swift has 500 songs about dudes leaving her and not one single song about giving a good blow job. Just connect the dots, Kara. Connect the dots. I've got a sickness Kara. I couldn't help it. I couldn't help it. I didn't hear anything you said.

I was thinking about my Taylor Swift joke. I know you were waiting. You couldn't hold it in. You can't hold it in. I didn't hear anything you said. Something about Elon Musk. You love talking about Elon Musk. You put up so many posts about diapers. Just so you know, excessive ketamine causes you to pay too much in your pants.

So go ahead. We got the world's most powerful man, the president, and the world's wealthiest man both wearing diapers. Look, I go to a different place with this. The first thing is I think that there is a mythology and lazy thinking around drugs and alcohol and that is between 90 and 94 percent of people are able to manage their professional, their personal, and their substance lives. That a lot of people do recreational drugs.

A lot of people drink a lot of alcohol and are able to manage all of it really well. As a matter of fact, the majority- Speaking for a friend, but go ahead. Yeah, go ahead. The majority of people can manage it, but that five or 10%, it can come off the rails. And not only that, you become very susceptible to moving into that death cell if you have other stressors in your life.

And for me, this isn't a story about drug abuse. So I think the guy is coming off the rails. And I wanna be clear here, I'm not in no way am I intimating violence or wish or harm against anyone. I think this guy probably has some of the lowest life expectancy of any public figure right now. Because when you are, I've been involved

in two quote unquote interventions. I've had a decent amount of people professionally and personally who've struggled with drugs and alcohol. His, if the New York Times reporting is accurate, which I believe it is, his ketamine use and his, and the other drug abuse here. He mixes a lot. Is so out of control.

And then you couple it with something that's even more dangerous and it's the following. What all of the research is showing is that there's this myth or this trope of the woman who can't find a dude and poor her, her life is awful because she can't find a dude and poor her, her life is awful because she can't find a guy and have kids, right? And the majority of the research is all leading to one place. And that is relationships in

a heteronormative relationship are actually more beneficial and important to the male than to the female. Widows are happier after the guy dies than when they were married. Widowers are much less happy. I will be sad when you go, but go ahead. I appreciate that. When men don't have a romantic relationship

as a guardrail, they come off the tracks. They become much more prone to self-harm, much more, they reinvest that energy in nationalist content, conspiracy theory, video games, porn, and I'm not pathologizing all single men here, but a single man is much more vulnerable to bad things in life than a single woman. A woman oftentimes when she has a lack of romantic opportunities re-channels that energy into her friend network, into professional opportunities.

And a lot of what's happening, I think in quote unquote, if you call it a mating crisis, everything is a crisis now, is that women as they've economically become more prosperous have just decided on the whole, these heteronormative relationships just aren't a great deal for them. And men really need relationships. And I think the thing that is really dangerous in the cautionary tale here

is that I don't think Elon Musk in addition, the nitro and glycerin here is that not only does he appear to have out of control druggies, but he appears to have absolutely no guardrails in terms of a close friend network or a monogamous romantic relationship. And I think that is just an incredibly dangerous cocktail. And what defines America right now is that we have an individual who is the world's wealthiest man making decisions that supposedly, according to several agencies, are going to result in several hundred thousand of

the poorest children around the world dying. But we forgive him even though of this rampant out of control drug abuse and this personal life that just seems chaotic, because he has so much money. Yeah. Look, it's well-known that he takes drugs. I mean, there's not anyone that you, people come up to me and tell me about a party in Los Angeles, whether it's Los Angeles, it's just,

this is 100% accurate reporting by the New York Times. Like you said, a lot of people can be functional and do it at the same time, but there are so many warning signs here. But one of the ones that troubled me, there was a line deep in the story where it's like, he was given, one of the things that the Trump people rail against is that people who are getting Medicaid have to have drug testing or this and that. They have all these rules for people. He was warned in advance. That to me jumped

out when the drug tests were coming. That was like, are you kidding me? Like he doesn't have to follow the same rules and he gets warned. Who was warning him in advance? I was like, this is a whole story by itself. Who is warning him in advance? It was a single line in the piece and I was like, of course he was warned in advance so that he could get clean or however he handles that. That to me was disturbing. It just was like watching in real time

someone who is headed to a very bad place. I've always thought that. At the same time, hurting people as he hurdles through this very strange life of his, without a carry. So give me your take on Doge, because I think it's been incredibly damaging. I don't think there's been good things about it at all. In fact, it's sullied the idea of government efficiency

in many ways. I think in some ways, it's essentially the government's come out with a much cleaner bill of health around this bullshit notion of wise fraud and abuse. They just weren't able to find it as easily as they'd hoped. Or they're just bad. Some people are reporting that it's actually the real loss is the effective savings of like seven to nine billion,

which isn't even the amount of the subsidies. I mean, I always come back to this statement, look what money's the amount of the subsidies. I mean, I was coming to the back of this statement. Look what money's done to us. If you, if Kara, if you had a sibling, if you had a brother who was exceptionally talented, right, and say he was worth, he was just very good at business and say it was worth 400 million, which means he's remarkably successful, but it was clear he was radically addicted to ketamine. At a parent-teacher's conference,

he was giving Nazi salutes. He was fathering multiple children with multiple women who were all suing him, or many of them were suing him for sole custody of that child because he hadn't seen that child. He had declared war on one of the children publicly. He shows up with a black eye. Wouldn't you get anyone who cares about this guy to do an intervention?

Yes, 100 percent. But here's the thing. I don't think his kid hit him. I don't think his kid hit him. But here's the thing. If you're worth 400 billion, not 400 million, the world admires you and thinks that you're, think it's not drug abuse,

it's you're provocative and you're authentic and you're different. I just come back to the same place, the idolatry of money, that we have decided that money somehow conflates with character and leadership. If he was worth $400 million, no one would put up with this shit. They'd be like, Jesus Christ, this guy is an addict.

We're not listening to this guy around. An accounting firm, a mid-level accounting firm wouldn't let him be a partner in their firm if they saw evidence of this. Yeah, well, money takes care of a lot of things. What's interesting is influence over Trump may be fading. Trump is sort of not a thrill to people with substance abuse problems.

He was cruel to his own brother. It may be fading more quickly than expected. The White House has withdrawn the nomination of Elon's billionaire pal, Jared Isaacman, to lead NASA just days before the expected Senate confirmation. Trump announced the decision Saturday night, citing a thorough review of prior associations as if they didn't know he gave to Democrats. Apparently, Isaacman had donated to both Republicans and Democrats, which is totally normal to

do. If you're a business person, that's what you do. But according to New York Times, Trump was aware that Isaac Min had made those donations before nominating them. He's just using it to pulling back. It's a setback for Musk because this is his pal. Having Isaac Min, who's flown two private missions with SpaceX at the helm of NASA, would likely have been a major asset in securing contracts and missions. What did you think of this? This was really interesting. And they're sort of purging all the Musk people, it looks like, in terms of perks. I think if he hands, it may be a pressure to hand over that $100 million check he promised, maybe, I don't know,

maybe he's just flexing his muscles. But it seems like a direct hit at Elon to do this, right? And that whole Oval Office thing has such a performative quality. The key was so, this is what I became actual felt sorry for Musk, is Trump handed him a shitty little key to the White House. And I thought, oh my God, that is so awkward and embarrassing. Thank you for your work. Here's a key in a box, in a cheat box with a shitty key. That to me was like, ouch. But what do you think about the political power here?

The president has incredible political instincts. He sees things that other people don't see and goes places no one else would go, and it ends up not only being less damaging than we thought, but we hate to admit it, that even despite what the media's reaction to it, it appears to sometimes resonate with the larger population. And I think he's decided that the half-life of Musk's usefulness to him is over. And he absolutely doesn't want to piss him off. He's got an incredibly powerful platform. He does not want him spending a lot of money. I mean, the thing about Musk and drug addicts in general, is they generally aren't that reliable or they're, or consistent.

And so he, I think, I think Trump is a bit afraid of Musk and goes, this guy could turn on me. So I think he's trying to thread this needle of like getting them out of the White House, supposedly him and. The send basically almost came to blows and it was creating real chaos in the West wing. So he wants to get him out, move him aside, and at the same time, stay on good terms with him. It's like, this is essentially what every manager's goal is. What Trump is trying to do is what every good manager's goal is, and that is the

following, and this is my approach to firing. And that is you will constantly managers, whenever I ask about someone that we're worried about, people will constantly make excuses for them. Oh, we're reassigned, we're doing this, we're redefining the job role. And I'm like, and this is going to sound terrible. I'm like, fire them. I've found nine times out of 10, when someone's not working, the people making excuses and recasting that it's the organization's fault. I'm like, okay, the organization's not changing.

And the sooner we can move, the more generous we can be. I think you are rapacious and capitalist when it comes to these decisions, but then you're as generous as possible. You sit down and you say, listen, it's not working here. We can go into why, but what we're going to do is we're going to let you stay as long as you need to so you don't lose your health insurance. You don't have to worry about money in the short term. We're going to help you find another job. And I think that's the objective here. I think he is trying to-

Except why do Isaacmen, why do that the same weekend? It was really interesting. I mean, I guess the vote was coming up, but still. I think something came out. Wasn't there something about his path? I think they basically said, this is not the guy or there's someone, who knows, there's probably another donor

who's given more money or something, who knows. Yeah, but why do that? Why is such a public in the place that Elon loves? I mean, I just felt it was a weird. You felt it was a shot across the ballot, it was an affront to Musk. I did, I was like, why bother? Like, because you could still control NASA contracts

without with him there, right? If they really didn't want Elon to get a special favors. But they'd have to watch it, I guess. I don't know. It was interesting. I think he'd probably be going away for a little while now. And maybe getting that much the help he desperately needs, obviously. All right, Scott, let's go on a quick break. We come back, Trump goes back to the taco playbook with his latest tariffs. Hey, I have a little favor to ask you. Pivot is planning for the future of the show and we want our listeners to be part of the conversation.

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President Trump is doubling tariffs on steel and aluminum from 25% to 50%. It moves, says we will boost US manufacturing. The EU is already saying they're prepared to retaliate. Canada is not too happy either. The timing of this tariff announcement coincides with what Trump is calling a blockbuster agreement between US Steel and Japan's Nippon Steel. Details of the deal are somewhat murky, though Trump is claiming US Steel will remain controlled by the US.

Senator David McCormick also said the US government will get a golden share in this deal, giving the administration US board member approval along other key decisions. This has been rattling about for a while. I think it has almost nothing to do with this. And while Trump has been facing legal roadblocks and his terrorists, Commerce Secretary Howard Lutton explained on Fox over the weekend

that tariffs are here to stay. They've been signaling that to all the reporters, just so you know. Rest assured, tariffs are not going away. He has so many other authorities that even in the weird and unusual circumstance where this was taken away, we just bring on another or another or another. Congress has given this authority to the president, and he's going to use it. So he's talking about the legal pushback on legal stuff that he couldn't do some tears. There's certain ways he couldn't get around it and this and that, but he really is just doubling down on these tariffs and you know it's fine for the

US Steel thing they get a golden share sure why not. Talk a little bit about this because and then we'll talk a little bit about China. He's now again accusing Beijing of totally violating the trade agreement that paused retaliatory tariffs. It looks like he's ginning things up and he's done with being Mr. Nice Guy there. Talk first about the steal and then we'll get to China. I think a lot of people have heard of sort of the taco trade but they don't really understand it. Trump always chickens out for people to get that. But what what it actually means is the

following is that the stock market will move so he announces tariffs on Apple products and Apple goes down three to five percent it takes a little bit of a hit. He he announces huge huge tariffs on China, 135%, and shipping companies that are dependent upon Chinese exports into the Port of Long Beach, they lose 30 or 40% of their value overnight. EU tariffs, EU stock market announcement, EU stock market declines.

The incredibly consistent, massively profitable trade has been to assume that this is all bluster and these tariffs will not hold and the companies that took an initial dive will recover. And it has been one of the most consistent, profitable trades that Trump always chickens out that his threats are bluster and that he's bluffing and the companies that take a short-term hit, you go long those companies and you make a shit ton of money. He has announced or reduced tariffs 50 times. And so far, as far as I can tell, we're going to get a reduction in the price of Austin

Martin engines from Britain. I mean, there's been absolutely almost no meaningful deal struck here. Now, my belief is it's the following. I used to think that he was an idiot in terms of basic understanding of economics and was hoping through bluster and by saber rattling to bring different economies to the table, thinking that that was going to benefit Americans. I no longer believe that. I believe he is purposely creating massive volatility such that him and his insiders can make billions of dollars in market manipulation and insider trading. And that in a year the

tariffs are going to look remarkably similar to the way they did before the Trump administration. When Attorney General Bondi is trading and selling Trump media shares the morning he announces these incredible tariffs taking the markets down, it means that all rules and fear around insider trade and criminality have gone away. And I think you are going, I think you are seeing that he has basically said, all right, saying to his local cronies, his, his PE and

hedge fund guys who talk them in at night. I'm thinking about massively increasing steel tariffs tomorrow, which by the way, took Cleveland Cliffs, new core steel dynamics up 27%, 11%, and 5.9%. Because essentially local domestic steel manufacturers are going to get to charge unearned prices because there's such massive tariffs on steel coming in. What does that mean? That means the prices of homes and cars are gonna go up. Now, if you believe the taco trade,

what you would do is you would now go short those companies believing he's not gonna be able to implement those tariffs against steel manufacturers. So I'm now beginning to believe that given that the courts or the, I forget what it was called, the IEEPA is basically saying this is not a war time. You do not have license to impose these tariffs. There can only be done in exceptional measures

during times of terrorism or cyber attacks. I think George W. Bush invoked them during 9-11. They said, this does not meet that test for what you are trying to do. Basically like an exceptional wartime act. The trade would be to go the other way, but I'm now of the mind of these people are not dumb. What they're doing is creating massive volatility that them and their cronies and their loyalists

are making tens of billions of dollars off. It's all market manipulation and insider trading. Yeah, I think you've been talking about this for a couple of weeks now. One of the things that he's really focused in on, as I said, was China. He didn't give specifics about the problems with China, that they were violating these things. But US trade rep Jameson Greer said China has been slow rolling compliance, particularly on exports of rare earth materials, which we need desperately.

China is hitting back, accusing the US of undermining the recent agreement with the so-called discriminatory measures like AI chip export controls and also criticizing the plan to revoke student visas, which Trump has been doing, specifically targeting Chinese students in America, which there are many. Despite all the tough talk from both sides, Trump says he sure held chat with Chinese President Xi to work things out. I mean, one of the things, is it even more taco behavior here? Because this is the key relationship, presumably, but the Wall Street Journal also had a piece that was really interesting about all these attempts to hobble China, particularly when it comes to tech aren't working and a

lot of ways are backfiring, with scarcity brings innovation and many people feel and that China's doing just fine in these agreements. So what is China different from your perspective, what he's doing here? There's the tariffs and then there's the war on these elite institutions. And I think the tariffs will do structural damage in that as everyone's trying to re-root the supply chain around America. They're like, we can't handle this toxic uncertainty. The fear around this nonsense with Harvard, by the way, both Xi Jinping and his rival, who disagreed on a lot, both had one thing in common. They sent their kids to Harvard.

And what's just so insane and so cynical about this move is they're doing it under the banner of antisemitism, but the funding they're trying to cut is around medical research or scientific research, of which we get huge dividends and which Harvard is outstanding at. Now, having said that, I do believe personally, I'm apologize, you asked about,

I'm sorry, you asked about China. I think that he is looking for some sort of big, beautiful deal and that she is gonna call his bluff. I think they have totally overplayed their hand. And the kid or the person torn between two lovers right now is Tim Cook. And that is Tim has nowhere to go. Tim, it would be easier. It was easier to get to

splitting the atom during World War II than it would be for us to return all manufacturing of the iPhone to the US right now. It's just an impossibility. And China is restricting the granting of visas to Chinese people in China who Apple is trying to transition to India, people in China who Apple is trying to transition to India, such that they can assemble one screw and say made in India. It's all tariff gaming right now. People, I mean, it's just so, Tim Cook is literally caught between these two people and quite frankly, the more consistent player right now and the easier player to deal with is Xi.

He doesn't know what Trump's going to do. But if you look at what's happened to Apple stock, people sort of don't believe it's really going to affect them. They sort of believe that that supply chain that has absorbed 25 million people and $50 billion a year and five super centers around China, that it's going to survive, that Trump will eventually back down. Or go away. Or go away. Or forget about it and move on to something else.

Yeah, yeah. I feel like China has got his number more than anybody else in terms of manipulating him. I mean, obviously Putin does. He's so easily manipulative because he's so obvious. And the idea that he's playing 3G chess is just ridiculous. I think we're gonna, as you said, we're gonna happen exactly the same place.

And we are not gonna realize the threat that China does. Our best move is to get along with China, right, in terms of protecting ourselves as a country, and to figure out ways that we can protect ourselves from all kinds of things that they could do. But this way, they just, to me, they are in the pole position with him. And you're right, everyone's just waiting for him to stop talking and move on. And his mouthpiece, Howard Lutnick, seems like an idiot. No one believes them because they're so capricious. No one believes anything. Well, but what you see is every time they make a new announcement about a tariff,

there's even less volatility. The market is absorbing these threats and saying they're not credible. Yeah, he's making himself less credible. That's absolutely what's happening here. He's not a very good negotiator, as it turns out, which you would have known if you followed his business dealings over the many decades. All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails. Okay, Scott, let's hear some wins and fails. Why don't you go first? Well, my fail, two images were summarized here. My fail was seeing kids, teenage boys in zip ties detained by ICE.

It's just like, do you realize how much damage that does to America? The cocktail, the peanut butter and chocolate that has created the strongest nation in history, and most people around the world don't know Americans, don't come to America, but they're willing to work with us. They think twice before they try to damage us or steal from us because they know our memory is long and our reaches far.

And also that coupled with a general sense that at the end of the day, they're the good guys. And when an image is shot around the world of our own, our own security agencies, putting children in zip ties. our own security agencies, putting children in zip ties. It just does so much damage to our reputation as the good guys. Basically, we're no longer the good guys. And as evidenced by the scariest piece of data

I've seen this year, other than 51% of men, 18 to 24, have never asked a woman out in person. The second scariest piece of data is that now globally, more people think China is a force of good in the world than the US. And that makes our deep pools of capital more shallow. People don't want to invest in us. People are less likely to inform when they think there's a terror cell trying to infiltrate our borders. It makes their scientists less likely to come here. It makes them much less likely to want to buy our products over Chinese products. That is my fail.

That image, and I won't go into the semantics of it. I don't know the specifics, but there's just some basics here. Okay. The memo, memo two, all ICE employees never ever have a minor in zip ties or in handcuffs, ever, ever. If they pose a risk to you, you have to incur that risk. If they become violent, fine, but we never put miners in zip ties or any other sort of restraining device.

Anyways, that's my loss. And I was equally excited by the image in the video of 40 strategic bombers, different Russian airfields being blown up. You cannot imagine, this is arguably the most precise, genius, and well thought out and bold military operation since the IDF's operation against Hezbollah and the Pager operation, they managed to smuggle in trucks to different areas or a thousand miles inside Russian territory, figure out a way at the exact right moment with soft assets on the ground, i.e. Ukrainian spies

on the ground to geolocate these strategic bombers. And then these trucks, their roofs would collapse or retract and they would launch these drones. And these drones took out 40 long-term strategic bombers precisely that have been bombing Ukrainian cities. And by the time I knew what was going on, the soft, the, the agents and the launch vehicles and the trucks had returned to safety or been abandoned. This was 18 months in the planning. It was incredibly strategic, brave.

I mean, this, nothing creates momentum and respect like, like this type of bravery and this type of thoughtful action. I was just so excited to see this. I think it puts new wind in the sails and morale of not only people within Ukraine fighting this fight on behalf of all of us, but it also makes it more, we're more inclined in the West to support Ukraine because we see when we put our dollars and our support to work, these people are not fucking around. They are very good at what they do. This will go down in history as one of the great brave military operations. And you're going to see in about 18 months, two or three different dramas on Netflix and on Hulu about this operation.

Anyways, the Ukrainian special operation to take out 40 long range strategic bombers who were shelling and bombing Ukrainian cities, that's my win. I'm gonna say a remarkable country. The minute this is over, that is gonna be the most important technological country, I think. We talk about certain countries like Israel and others. It already was, but going forward, once they get out of this mess, the rebuilding of Ukraine

should be really interesting, especially for technology. I think it's going to be one of those great countries. In 10 years, we'll be sort of like, what? Like that kind of thing. I just feel like Ukraine is so impressive in terms of pushing people out of their country, trying to, as difficult as it is. You're right, I was sort of gobsmacked that they were able to do that, and relatively easily it looks like, which tells you everything you need to know about Putin's Russia. That's a good one.

My fail continues to be, is this idea that the damage Elon Musk has caused through Doge and the damage of the coarsening really has to stop. The fact that everyone was sitting around acting like this guy was great at the Oval Office when he clearly is in distress. Listen, I have no sympathy for Elon Musk, but it's sad to look at. It's sad to watch someone of so much possibility become such a small-minded, angry victim. All the interviews were depressing.

Every single interview was depressing. People wrote a lot about money doesn't buy happiness, and that seems to be the case here. But the fact that we excuse it and just don't call it out and say, listen, and to be attacked. The New York Times, I thought, did a great job in that story and has kept at it. That's a hard story to say yes to, I suspect, because he could easily sue them or whatever else with a lot of nonsense.

But it just makes you feel like you know where this is all going, and it's sad that nobody will intervene or can intervene really in that regard. For When, there's a new musical here in San Francisco, I'm hoping to see it this week, called Co-Founders, that's described as Hamilton meets Silicon Valley, and Reid Hoffman is the backer. The show, I've been listening to the soundtrack, it's pretty good. The show has a song that feels particularly appropriate, Reid Hoffman is the backer. And the show, I've been listening to the soundtrack, it's pretty good. The show has a song that feels particularly appropriate, it's called Pivot, and it's

not about us, Scott. Let's listen to a short bit of it. Was a dating site with video, Twitter? Was a podcast on audio, Flickr? Was an early MMO? Never ending game way before the photos. The pivot ain't folk, no. So when you're thinking you can't score, just make your way to the dance floor. All right. We've been pivoting for, isn't that good?

It's pretty good. Yeah, it was good. Yeah, yeah. I think that should be our new scene. So that's what Reid's been up to. That's the reason he's trying not to get like attacked by Trump and Musk and doing that. I love that, Redolph. And he's always, I was like, I wrote him, I'm like, what? And I was like, good for you. Good for you, Redolph, and doing that. I kind of liked it.

It's here in San Francisco until July. So I should go see it. I'm excited to see it. I love the theater. It makes me happy whenever I go. Anyway, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com.com.pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. And elsewhere in the Kara and Scott universe, this week on On with Kara Swisher, I talk to editor in chief of the Atlantic, Jeff Goldberg, Mr. Signalgate. Let's listen to a clip. Deeply corrupt governments and societies don't work very well. Sometimes they bring themselves to a crisis point, at which point the people say enough

and something good happens out of that. So I mean, I think that's ultimately where we're heading unless unless the American people who are supplied with cheap calories abundant video entertainment and actual drugs just have given up on the idea of standing up for Traditional American principles. I mean we have to consider that as long as you feed people enough food and give them enough diversion I mean, it sounds very Roman because it is. Right. Bread and circuses.

Yeah, bread and circuses. Maybe it won't. So anyway, it was a great interview. He's really terrific. What a thoughtful person leading a very important publication right now. He's made it important through his leadership. Okay, that's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot and make sure you like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday Scott read us out today's show is produced by Lara Neiman So a Marcus Taylor Griffin and Kevin Oliver Ernie enters hot entry in this episode Thanks also to do your bro's miss severe and Dan Shalon the shock Kroos box media's executive producer of podcast Make sure to follow a pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to pivot from New York magazine and box media

You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com slash pod. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Kara, have a great rest of the week.