Pivot - Elon’s Twitter Buy, Urban Hellscapes, and Guest Dr. Laurie Santos

Episode Date: April 5, 2022

Kara is joined by co-host George Hahn today to discuss Elon Musk becoming Twitter's largest shareholder, Louis C.K.'s Grammy win, and urban crime trends. This episode's Friend of Pivot, Dr. Laurie Santos of The Happiness Lab to talk about the secret to living a happy life.Y ou can find George on Twitter at @georgehahn. You can find Dr. Laurie Santos hosting The Happiness Lab and on Twitter at @lauriesantos. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Just go to Indeed.com slash podcast right now and say you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? You need Indeed. Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Cara Swisher.

Scott Galloway, I cannot believe it on the day Elon is trying to buy Twitter, is out today. I'm joined by writer, actor, and media personality and sometimes Pivot co-host, Jihan, George Han. I'm thrilled that you're here. George, good to see you again. Cara, it's such a thrill to be here. Thank you. So thank you for asking.

Of course. You're my first choice, honestly. I thought it would be fun to talk to you after. And by the way, Scott thinks every now and then, because he's such a loud mouth, we need a palate cleanser. And you are a palate cleanser, as if I had to pick one. That's what he said to me yesterday. Give me a minute. Give me a minute.

I'll shred that real fast. Anyway, just did you watch the Grammys last night? I did not. I was on a plane to Vancouver. I'm in Vancouver right now. I didn't because I still have PTSD from the Oscars. And I'm in that place where if like, you know, for the next few award shows, I'm going to have to watch them through my fingers.

Right, right, right. I did see some clips and I'm sure you heard as well. By all accounts, it was actually a fun show. Yeah, yeah. I think there wasn't too much. I think Stilinski appeared. Justin Bieber's outfit. I noticed you tweeted about it.

Tell me about what you thought about it. Tell me about what you thought about that. He was channeling David Byrne. Preet prompted me and he showed up and he said, George, can I get a ruling? And I immediately thought of David Byrne and his stop making sense talking heads drag, which was fantastic. And Bieber's just kind of doing his own riff on it. It's fine. What really concerned me is that Justin, along with many others, starting with Timothee Chalamet, there is that term, so-and-so lost his shirt. Well, it seems like everybody literally lost their shirt. No one's wearing shirts now. Their shirts are very last year.

No, it was interesting. The host of SNL, I'm totally Jared Carmichael. He wasn't wearing a shirt, but he looked good, I have to say. I kind of like it. What do you think? I think it depends on who's doing it, you know? You took a picture of it. That's why you took a picture of it. Oh, of me? Yeah, you did it. In jest. Yes, I get that. You look good. You look good.

You're very kind. Some can pull it off, and it's not necessarily an age thing, because Lenny Kravitz showed up. I don't know if you saw what he was wearing on the red carpet. No, I didn't. He had on like, tight leather pants, still pulls it off. Yes, he pulls it off. And boots that nearly went, he was Catwoman from the waist down. And then shirtless, but he wore this chainmail halter. Yeah.

That he, it worked. It worked. Lenny Kravitz looked great. Yeah. What about Chalamet? What do you think of Chalamet? I think Timothy's having fun. You know, you're young, have some fun.

These are the days where you're in your 20s, everybody wants to have sex with you, like, find yourself. Okay. All right. Okay. Well, speaking of finding yourself, Louis C.K. apparently isn't canceled. He won the Grammy for Best Comedy Album just days after Will Smith resigned from the Academy

over his conduct at the Oscars. Smith, by the way, says he's willing to accept whatever punishment the Academy doles out. The obvious question, why is Smith's bad behavior potentially punished? And Louis is back, I guess, you know, and he was whipping out his ding-dong. Yeah, he was whipping it out. That's my word for penises, just so you know, ding-dong. But go ahead, move along. Or dong, as you know, I'm going to ask Preet about that. I don't like that. Yeah, yeah.

I don't, yeah. But, you know, listen, it's been a minute since the Louis situation, and comedy is tragedy plus time. So, it's been a little time. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He is funny. I'm not excusing it. Yeah. I got, in terms of craft, I think Louis C.K., minus the incident or the, you know, the stuff. Many incidents, apparently. But go ahead.

Incidents. Yeah, several. He is a master craftsman when it comes to joke making. Right. A modern genius. The whole situation really disappointed me. I liked and admired his work so much. He's a real artist in that world.

I haven't seen a special. You know, some of his competition in the category was Louis Black, whom I adore, Chelsea Handler. That was a good special. Hers was a good one. Very strong. Although Chelsea hits it with the drugs a lot. Like, I get it, Chelsea.

She does. You like to be high. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, everybody's got their thing. Dave still does the trans stuff. I mean, I get it, Chelsea. You like to be high. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, everybody's got their thing. Dave Chappelle does the trans stuff. I mean, what's interesting, I've been thinking about a lot because I did think

Chappelle, that particular segment, was super transphobic and he has a problem with it. I interviewed Kathy Griffin about that. At the same time, he's a genius. I think I've decided to give comics a real wide berth now as I think about it and sort of evolve my opinion. In this case, I don't give him a wide berth for whipping as I think about it and sort of evolve my opinion. In this case, I don't give him a wide berth

for whipping out his penis. I don't either. It's gross and disgusting. But it's an interesting issue. But on stage, I give comics the hitting or the penis whipping. It's just, I don't know what to do. It's really hard to figure it all out.

Although I'm pretty much on the side of, yuck, like you awful, creepy fuck. Reminding me of this early 90s album from Sandra Bernhard titled Excuses for Bad Behavior. And now we're here. Like now we're living it. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yep. I mean, what's interesting is people voted for Louis C.K. knowing about his behavior. So they've obviously forgiven him for it. Will Slap came only after the votes were cast. So anyway, it's interesting it's an interesting time my head yeah it is and it's interesting and so you know people want to watch

it i think people should watch what they want to watch and um you know sometimes they did you know with chris rock people are giving a hard time over the tasteless jada pinkett smith joke same time saying you shouldn't deserve it i i think jared Jared Carmichael made a great point during his monologue on SNL. He's a comic. He's wonderful. I'm not going to talk about it. I want to be clear up top. I've talked about it enough. Kept talking about it. Kept thinking about it. I don't want to talk about it. And you can't make me talk about it. But I got a question. don't want to talk about it. And you can't make me talk about it. But I got a question. Do you want to talk about it?

I urge everyone to go watch his monologue. It really is delicious. He really is. Masterful opening monologue. Yep. He did. So today, just so you know, we'll talk about a lot of things. Elon Musk's new Twitter.

Not his new tweet, but his new Twitter. He's bought a big chunk of the company, nearly 10%. We'll get some news about Sarah Palin and other loudmouths. I know you love to talk about them. And then to cool down, we'll speak with Dr. Laurie Santos about happiness. But first, Discovery and Warner Media will merge in the coming days. Advocacy groups are saying the merch company is failing Latinos. Okay. The alliance of groups, including Edward James Olmos Latino Film Institute, say Discovery has zero Latino showrunners, directors, and executives in 2021. That seems odd and strange when you think about all the different companies

with all these hits and everything else. Anyway, that's going to happen. That's going to happen next week. And then David Sazov takes over. He's sort of an old schooler. I suspect he's like, oh, God, now I own a big company. He's sort of been toiling away over at Discovery for a long time where he's not gotten as much attention. So he better be ready for this kind of attention on all kinds of fronts the way Bob Jappik is at Disney. I don't know. What do you think? You have to represent, you know? Yeah. I mean, it's kind of a no-brainer, you know? And the Latino community has every right to be sort of going, hey, hey, with this. Yeah, yeah. What's going on? Yeah. Yeah, sorry, not sorry. You've got to represent.

Yeah, I think it's interesting because when you move from, you know, when you're not prepared for the onslaught, because there's these partisanship and culture wars, even though people are actually concerned about inflation and day-to-day life, when you look at polling, it's going to be a part of the corporate scene, no aggressive as the left in calling people out. You know, Bob Chapik got caught in sort of a scissors here in a squeeze because he did the wrong thing on the gays and lesbians in Florida. And then when he started to do the right thing, John DeSantis attacked him. So I don't envy these CEOs, although they're paid an enormous amount of money. But it's a really difficult squeeze for a company when they have to pick a side, essentially. Well, I am sometimes yes and sometimes not a fan of Anna Wintour. But she says one of my favorite things about this very thing, you have to stand for something. Yeah.

Yes. It just depends on what you stand for. Well, she's had her own share of controversies, by the way, in that area. But I mean, in general. She got whipsawed in that regard. Yeah, I would agree. And I think it's hard for... You have to stand for something.

Well, David, welcome to the Thunderdome. I think you're going to find it a little different than having a controversy on Guy Fieri. You know, whatever. I think it's going to be a little more than that. That was the biggest star discovery he has been. I like Guy Fieri, anyway. I watched Diners, Drive-Ins, and whatever it's called.

Also, the White House's Jen Psaki may be headed to MSNBC. She reportedly hosts a show on Peacock, also on regular channels. What do you think about this sort of revolving door? It seems like it's not just her. It's on the right. It's on the left. They just hired Mick Mulvaney somewhere. I forget where they heard it. On Mick Mulvaney at CBS.

CBS, yeah. That got a huge controversy. So what do you think about these things? Well, it depends. I think Mulvaney is a different thing. And Stephen Colbert had an incredible monologue about it on his show. CBS News has hired the ex-president's former chief of staff, Mick Mulvaney, to quote, provide political analysis across the network's broadcasts and platforms. For more, we go to The Late Show's own media analyst, Stephen Colbert. Stephen, your thoughts? What the f***? Psaki, that doesn't surprise me.

You know, like the conservative ones go to Fox. Jen Psaki is going to go to MSNBC. Right, right. Kelsey Preece. Simone Sanders went over there. Not really. But not really a surprise. But the difference, as I see it from where I'm sitting, is that Jen Psaki is not a liar.

Oh, okay. You know, she doesn't stand up there and lie to everybody all day when she does that. Well, the right thing she does, but go ahead. Go ahead. I'm good. Of course they do, you know? But she's also very good at her job. It's the formula now.

It's what you do. Like Nicole Wallace and others. I don't know what I think about it. I gotta say. I mean, what's his name? Sean Spicer's over at what? OWN or one of them? I forget. He went over there. Listen, like we're saying Sean Spicer went where? We don't know what I think about it. I've got to say, I mean, what's his name? Sean Spicer's over at what, OWN or one of them? I forget.

He went over there. Listen, like we're saying Sean Spicer went where? We don't know. I know, I know. But then who else went? What was the other press secretary for Trump? Kayleigh McEnany and then Sarah Huckabee Sanders. Huckabee, who's running for governor and stuff like that.

They either go into politics or they go on to one of these things. I still think it's a – this formula that cable has has got to be overhauled. I just feel like it's just a lot of people screaming at each other. And I get why you would scream to the converted, but it seems – I don't know. It just doesn't illuminate, George. It doesn't. Well, as a junkie of public radio – You are a junkie.

I broke up with cable a long time ago. You, because I broke up with cable a long time ago. You did? I cut that cord a long time ago. And I'm an NPR listener. And so, when you listen to something like NPR, which really kind of feels like the grown-ups table, nobody's yelling. Although some people think it's shaded, but go ahead. They're pretty good about getting both sides. And, you know, the people on the right show up, and they say, thank you, it's a pleasure to be here, and they do their bit. But there's nobody's yelling. And then when I turn on or see a clip from cable news, it is jarring, the contrast in tone.

And it seems like sort of almost childish by comparison. Yeah, it is 100%. I try not to touch it, although I've been watching, obviously, the imagery from sending CNNs in a very good job in Ukraine, and Leska job covering inflation and stuff like that, which is interesting. They could do the same thing on all these topics. There doesn't have to be a war with really awful imagery, which I think does bring people in at the same time. They're doing great reporting. Anyway, let's get on to our first big story. Elon Musk frequently owns people on Twitter, but now he owns Twitter at least a big chunk of it. On Monday, an SEC filing revealed that Musk had purchased more than 9% of the company.

That makes him the largest shareholder, and that is a big deal. I have been waiting for some rich person on the right or left to do this. And who knows where he is? He's all over the place. Scott asked a good question last week. What does Elon want from Twitter that he doesn't already get? When we were talking about starting his own, because he did a poll about whether you should start a social network. As clever as Elon is, he decided to buy one. He's never gotten even close to getting kicked off of Twitter, which people were like, oh, now he can't get kicked off. He actually stays within, you know, whether you like his Hitler memes or calling U.S. Senators Senator Karen like Elizabeth Warren. It's fine. I think this is a really fascinating.

People got mad at me because I said it was fascinating. But it certainly is. And Twitter jumped on the news. So the markets expect him to do something. It doesn't mean that others won't come in. I'm surprised. He's the exactly right person to do this. And he was actually quite close, has been close to Jack Dorsey. It doesn't have integration with any of his other companies. Maybe it does. Although Mark Benioff tried to buy Twitter at one point. So tell me, what do you think about this? It't surprise me um i don't i'm still kind of unclear

about the why like it's not like he needs the cash what is this about he hasn't been canceled he can say and do kind of like whatever he wants and i guess we're going to talk about it later with our guest but in terms of like this being being a pursuit of happiness, what more do you need? Oh, I think, no, I don't agree with you. I think he is so linked with Twitter. He loves it. He's obviously like you and I addicted to it in some fashion. I think he's got a point of view on this about free speech. You know, he did that when he did Starlink in Ukraine. No one's going to let us decide what goes over this thing. You know, I think it fits in exactly with his worldview in that he probably felt Twitter had gone too far in policing people. He is going to have, if he continues and others jump in,

enormous pressure on this management. It is probably something nobody expected. Although when you think about it, it makes perfect sense that he would be the one to do it. I always thought a rich person would move in, but if it was Soros or Thiel, that would be too much. This guy is sort of in a weird spot. People who hate him think he's too right wing. People who love him think he's just saying it like it is. I would think he would be for putting Trump back on the platform. That would be my guess. Is he for that?

I don't know. That's the thing. I think I am imagining. He's a little bit of a mystery that way. Well, he didn't want to vote for, when we last interviewed, he didn't want to vote for Trump. But at the same time, I think he has some things in common, right? Like some things he agrees with. So especially around this idea of being censorious. I think this is really interesting. And I think

people are losing their minds that their beloved Twitter could get in the hands of a billionaire, you know, like this. And that's a lot. 10% gives you an enormous clout within a company to make changes. It's more than most shareholder activists. And let me just say, the stock of Twitter has been very low, as Scott has talked about a lot. This is an activist shareholder moving in in a very different way. So, I don't know. I think it's kind of smart on his behalf. It's his money, but it's up 30%. Washington Post has an owner. Yeah, exactly. Right. So, I mean, he's not going to be the full owner,

but he can't, well, he might be able to afford it. But it's certainly, shareholders have got to cheer this because they felt that Twitter is undervalued for a long, long time. And it has been. It's the same as it was when it went public or something like that. But you, like, again, the idea that him,

he claiming that he's being censored, how exactly? I don't... Well, he just, no, he talks that he's being censored. How exactly? I don't. Well, he just, no, he talks about free speech in general. I don't think he himself has claimed. I haven't seen that he might have at one point. But you've talked about this. Yes. I'm going to push back a little bit.

Okay. Twitter's a private company. And when we agree, like, these are their rules. Right. You know, it's like, these are, this is their codes of conduct. And if you're not going to abide by it, we're a private company. This is not the public square. Twitter can kick me or you off whenever it wants to. Right.

Well, it has to go along their guidelines. I'm surprised I haven't been suspended yet. I know. No, come on. They love you. But here's the deal. That's correct. It's a private company, and therefore he can buy it.

And he could change the rules if he wants, their rules. If he gets enough influence on the board, et cetera, he can change their rules. And so that's how he's doing it. He's not like yelling from the sidelines like a those breaks off. I think he would. He would change those rules. I'm not sure he'd go as far as Alex Jones, but he might. He might be like, look, good ideas, bad ideas, they need to be out there all at once. And of course, he's not taking in mind that these things can be terribly abused and manipulated by people. But it's really, and people are really losing their, they love Twitter and like they don't want someone they don't agree with owning it. Right now, Jack Dorsey was sort of managed to be in both worlds, very free speech oriented. And then he seemed to make the right decisions at the right time, whether it was Alex Jones or Trump or whatever that the left liked.

But, and he sort of got pressed from the right, but he managed to sit in the middle. But, and he sort of got pressed from the right, but he managed to sit in the middle. Elon is a really interesting character to put in the middle of this, because you just don't know where he's going to come out. Although he does tend towards loud mouthery, I guess, I don't know what to say. He does tend towards attacking Democrats and Biden, for example. But he doesn't necessarily not attack the other side when he feels like it. He's just, people find him to be, some people find him to be authoritarian focused. I just, here's, but here's my, and I think Scott might feel the same way. I can't remember exactly what Scott said about it.

Scott should be thrilled because the stock is up, but go ahead. There is that, but I'm sorry. But like the fact that a guy, the way we worship the ultra wealthy and powerful people, and he is excused from behavioral norms, from manners, from like being a gentleman. Like, what is your problem? What he has said about Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren. Like, what the hell happened to you? Your mother loves you, right? Yes, she does.

Was it because dad wasn't in the picture? Why are you like this? Why is it okay for him to be a dick? He's a dick. But because he's rich and powerful, we're supposed to go, well, it's okay. It's not okay. It's just what he is. I don't think it's an excuse. He can do what he wants. And I think in this case, he can buy this. It's a private, just what you're saying, it's a private company. I'm not supporting it or not. I'm just surprised no one's done it. And I do think there's only a very few people who could pull something like this off. Jack Dorsey was one of them. And of course, he was even pressured because the stock, this has gotten the stock up 30%. This is literally the plot of succession at the end of this season when Alexander Sarsgaard was going to be bought,

and then he ended up pumping his stock that allowed him to buy Logan Roy's company, right? This is sort of fantastic. It's like following along those playbooks. And I don't know why I didn't think Elon buys Twitter, that kind of thing. Now, again, this could be a pile-on of others. There might be some in Silicon Valley that come with him. He's got a whole crew, you know. And so you could see, you know, Marc Andreessen getting in here and others. And so it changes the equation quite a bit because it's a private company. And so as much as people don't like that Twitter does what it wants because it's a private company, he can do what he wants because he has money and can buy it. And he can. And I don't like, I will not, I don't want to sit next to him at the Thanksgiving dinner table. Like, no,

I just don't even want to go to the same house. But it's interesting that it doesn't have to fit in with his other things, because Twitter is really two things, a news vehicle and a marketing vehicle. And so, he will have influence. People say, oh, he's not going to. I'm like, sure will. Like anyone who has that much, they can influence the board, they can influence. And there's no particular stock here that keeps one person in power. Jack Dorsey, who actually, when I interviewed Jack Dorsey last time, I said, who's your favorite person on Twitter? He said, Elon Musk. I think they're quite close is my impression. I think they're quite close, is my impression. And so I don't know that for a fact, but it was an interesting choice. And he thought he was enthusiastic, and he said what he wants, and this and that. And so I think he can have enormous influence now.

And it could set off a bidding war for this thing. Mark Benioff has wanted to buy it. You know, Peter Thiel could get in here. There's all kinds of people who have the means to do this. And before people didn't want to touch Twitter, because it was so toxic. And in this case, why not touch, you know, why not grab it? And I think this is fascinating. This is going to be real interesting. And it's going to be hard for Scott, because as much as you know, Elon called Scott an insufferable numbskull on Twitter, which was enjoyable to all of us, including Scott. But he loves to dump on Elon.

But Elon's the reason this stock is up, which... Elon's punching down. You think? I guess. I don't know. Every time Elon goes after anybody based on his money and his following, every move he makes is a punchdown. Okay.

All right. Well, in any case... That's the price of being on top. Yeah, I guess so. He doesn't need... I've talked to him about this. I think it's ridiculous. But that's All right. Well, in any case. That's the price of being on top. Yeah, I guess so. He doesn't need to. I've talked to him about this. I think it's ridiculous, but that's all right. He can do what he wants.

If I was his mother, I'd tell him to dial it back, but he does what he wants. But I ain't his mama. His mother is actually, was a model. She's quite beautiful and fair. She has a point of view. She got mad at me once. That was scarier than Elon getting mad at me, which happens periodically. Anyway, I like her so much.

I really do. I do too. Even though, even though like she got mad at me, I don't care. She's his mama. That's okay. He polled his Twitter followers and asked if Twitter's algorithm should be open source, which was interesting. And 80% said yes, which creates a whole nother fork in the road here.

There's already an open source version of Twitter called Mastodon. So that's interesting. Anyway, we'll see what happens. Scott, I can't wait till Scott gets Scott's point of view because he must be torn today. All right, George, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, the blue-red state divide is growing, and we'll speak with a friend of Pivot, Dr. Laurie Santos. Dr. Laurie Santos.

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George, do your impression of Julia Fox, please. Oh, my book. You wanted to ask me about my book. Well, it started as a memoir, but now it's just kind of, now it's just my first book. And if I may say so, it is a masterpiece. Explain who you're doing. I just love that. Oh, you're still going. Okay. That's not a vocal fry. That is a vocal like flipping that on the grill. I saw her in Uncut Gems with Adam Sandler. And she was Adam Sandler's sort of secret mistress, girlfriend. And she was good. I thought she was very sweet and charming in the movie. That movie is a 90-minute heart attack.

Yeah, yeah. Really a stressful film to watch. Anyway, you did it. That was a beautiful Twitter thing. I'm sure Elon will like it as the owner of Twitter. I want you to do the rest of the show in that voice. No, please don't. Okay.

All right. So we're going to get on our next topic. America's blue cities are hell holes, apparently. At least that's what you'd think if you read the Washington Post or the Wall Street Journal. A recent piece in the Post claims that murder and rape rates in San Francisco are up by double digit percentage points. But as Peter Calloway points out, who is a public defender, that's only true because the numbers are so low. That's a single instance raised the rate significantly in case homicides went from 10 to 11 people. Meanwhile, the group, the third way found that among the top 10 states with the highest murder rates, eight are red

states. So this has been a meme. I've been on Twitter just this past week. I was just in San Francisco and I literally went to every part of the city. I walked myself around. There are terrible parts, including downtown Soma and Tenderloin, as always. They're just horrific and lots of problems in the streets. Other parts have improved. Now, everybody's complaining about petty crime, and I don't think it's petty, breaking windows, cars, bike stolen, package theft. Homeless people yell, mentally ill, homeless people yelling at people. You know, I was also just in New York City, people, there's been a lot of really significant crime, very

high profile crimes. But there is sort of this attack. I just, my point was that it's cartoonish to talk about any city this way. And they've seized on San Francisco in this way that, listen, there's absolute problems, no question. But it really is very complex, and nobody wants to talk about that, including post-pandemic. So you live in New York City, and you went through the same thing. People are going to say your city is dirty and awful, and we should leave. And yet you can't ignore it. New York City, Mayor Adams recently cleaned out homeless encampments across the city. And San Francisco, they did that too. They pulled out a lot of these homeless encampments. So what do you, tell me what you think about, you know,

these very real problems of these cities without falling into the city's hellhole myth or shitholes, as Donald Trump might say. Well, it was the whole, the city is a hellscape narrative that kind of made me internet famous. And I did a video that went very viral. And it was that same kind of made me internet famous and i did a video that went very viral and it was that that same kind of narrative new york city's streets are like a fucking hellscape i mean there was like people and violence and like looting and fires everywhere and like i mean look at the streets are lined with people doing things like getting ice cream gay ice cream and molly jong fast and i actually were calling bullshit on it because we're actually here. That was in the summer of 20 in the wake of the George Floyd killing

and the demonstrations. I think Meghan McCain got famous for saying it was a hell of a whole. And everyone was like, what the fuck are you talking about? Then leave. Then get out. Then leave. That is my thing. But going back even further, Cara, there has always been this very, the

middle American relationship with the big city in general has always been one that has been colored with fear and distrust. And it's where those weirdos are and you're going to get mugged and you're going to get raped. And it's where the, it's where weirdos go. Yeah. New York City usually bore the brunt of this for a long time. A hundred percent.

And people are afraid of the bigs. I grew up in Cleveland, and I remember in the late 60s after the riots, there was the white flight. Everybody went to the suburbs. And to this day, there is a mistrust of city folk, and public transportation is dirty. They've got a very Batman version of the city, which is interesting. And again, and at the same time, you don't want to fall into the truth. See, what happens to me in San Francisco is you've got these people who want to get Chesa

Bowden out. I think Bowden is how you pronounce it. He was the, is the DA, who has actually been doing more prosecution of rapes and murders, which is interesting if you actually look at the statistics. At the same time, he's been tone deaf to what very real, and I don't want to call them petty crimes, because if you live in a city, it creates a real, my neighbor got assaulted by a mentally ill homeless man. And then you have those people who are trying to paint him a certain way. You have the Board of Education that got recalled because they went too far. They went too far on the lab, like ridiculous. They should have been focusing on schools,

and they were focusing on renaming things. And I get why they do that at San Francisco, but at the time, in the middle of the pandemic, parents didn't want to hear this. There's a tension around that. He is probably going to get recalled. And at the same time, you have these sort of, those on the left, you're pretending it doesn't exist, right? So it's kind of a real problem when you are in these cities, but they become these, I keep saying it's nuanced. It's nuanced. There's much more going on. And nobody wants to ever, and let's talk about how to solve them versus either virtually signaling on the left

or virtual signaling on the right. It's really, and again, cities are returning, rents are up. I found New York and San Francisco to be vibrant, vibrant. And I was sort of struck by New York when after, and I was struck by San Francisco, same thing. Nonetheless, it's a problem. And so, how do you change that? Because there was a story in the New York Times today about the gulf between red and blue states, you know, in terms of being run. They have all these, you know, the anti-trans things and it's happening in the red states and in the blue states, they're doing the opposite, which is further protecting, whether it's trans people, gays and lesbians, women, abortion, etc. Still going back, like going back to what I was talking about before, look at an electoral map. Look at the electoral map after 2020, 2016. The cities, blue. Everything else red. You know?

And the city, like the Emerald City, it's where people go to get out of where they came from to share ideas. Like, ideas and thinking and conversations happen in cities that don't happen, not necessarily at all, but in the way they do anywhere else. You know, I have been accused, to answer your question, managing and running a city, it's a work in progress. There are problems. There will always be problems. There is no such thing as a utopia in American or global society, really. And it's work. And we have problems here in New York. We always have. We always will. Is it perfect? Never going to be. Do I want to live here more than anywhere else? Absolutely. I've been accused of being in this sort of liberal bubble. I'm in a bubble, excuse me. I walk a block and I hear five or six different languages. There are people of different colors, backgrounds, educations, customs, cuisines, clothing, you name it,

orientations, gender IDs. How is it where you, everybody else is? Tell me about their bubble. I love that about this. Yes, I said that once when they were talking about someone, I have a lot of relatives in the Red States, and they are red. They are red people. It's isolated. It's like a snow globe. Yeah. And one of the things they said is, you all never visit us here. You don't get our point of view. I said, when did I see you in San Francisco to get my point of view? Like, it goes both ways, sir.

Thank you. You know what I mean? And so, it was interesting. I was like, come over here and see how we live. Come and see. Someone tweeted at me, and I thought it summed it up well. Republicans keep stoking fear and hate, while we Democrats keep hoping that facts are more important than feelings. We never learn, both sides. Like, they don't understand these are feelings and stuff. Democrats have got to get a hold of themselves on this stuff. Like, it's really hard. At the same time, I get completely offended when they, that the Republicans try to reduce it into this scaremongering. And this is, and it is worse.

It is worse. Guess what? The city used to be, New York City, I lived there during David Dinkins. It was like a, I used to call it, what did I call it? It was just before I got here. It was terrible. I went to Columbia. Then there's a Charles Bonson movie era, you know. And who was it who said to New York City, drop dead? It was just before I got here. And, you know, a lot of the people who have left San Francisco, all they do is dunk on San Francisco. I'm like, just go to your little home and be happy where you are.

And so I think there's a very difficult and almost intractable problem, some of these issues in the city. No matter what you do, whether you move these encampments, which some people are like, you can't do that to these people. You have others who, you know, are in the middle, don't like the homeless encampments, yet also feel for these people. And this is just what a city is, like you said. Was it Tom Cotton who was something, recently tried to paint this picture that like, why would you want to be in the cities where you're in public transit, where you have to be in with other people and stuff? They want to make you live in downtown areas and high-rise buildings and walk to work or take the subway or ride an electric scooter or whatever it is that Pete Buttigieg takes to work this week. I remember, Carol, when I lived in

Cleveland for three years, I didn't have a car, which was weird to people. And I took a bus to, there was a funeral, like not far from where I live downtown. And my brother called me while I was on the bus and he said, are you going to Father So-and-so's funeral? I said, yeah. He said, do you need a ride? I said, no, I'm on a bus. And he goes, ugh, why? That was his response. Like, that's, you know, like, that is the sort of Midwestern or smaller town perception of, oh, you're going to share space with people who aren't necessarily just like you? Yes, that's how I get around. It freaks people out. It does. It does. Here's, yeah. You must have been. It freaks people out. It does, it does. Here's the thing.

I was an anomaly. Yes, you are still an anomaly. In any case, we're going to bring it, because we're going to talk about happiness next. We're going to talk about, because you know what? Be happy where you fucking are. Like, stop it. Yes.

Like, you don't need to, when you have to drag another group, and that applies to the left and the right, but the right does it a lot. Well, no, they both do, honestly, at this point. Listen. After enduring this Elon stuff this month. I have a theory, and we could talk about it further, but like, these people on the right with the culture war and what these cards they're playing.

Yeah. These are people who were not, they didn't get to sit at the cool kids table in the cafeteria in high school, and they're still bitter about it. And they have made it their life's mission because they're not funny, they're not clever, they're not even sometimes interesting. And so, this is their petty payback. I suppose, but the cool kids could have been a lot nicer. Let's be fair. Agreed. You know, I'm not a fan of the mean girls. Were you a cool kid? Were you a cool kid?

No, I was kind of in the middle. Like, I was friendly with the jocks, even though I was not sports. I was friendly with the theater kids. I was friendly with the kids who wore black and smoked. I kind of, yeah, I kind of got along with everybody. Yeah, I was right in that middle, too. It was interesting. The cool kids can be assholes, by the way. Anyway, let's bring in our friend of Pivot. Dr. Lori Santos is a professor of psychology at Yale, where she teaches the university's most popular course in over 300 years. That's a long time, Psychology and the Good Life. She's also the host of The Happiness Lab, a podcast based on her course.

She joins us today to finally reveal a secret to a happy life. Welcome, Dr. Santos. Thanks for being here. Yeah, thanks so much for having me on the show. So we're just talking about, you just wrote about Yale's happiness professors. I don't know if you like being known as that. It says anxiety is destroying her students. There's been a lot of articles lately about this idea of putting, I think I was reading a David French piece and some others about this idea of bringing our own fears and anxieties to kids, the impact of, you know, social media on it, the lack of, there's all kinds of reasons. So can you talk to me a little bit about your piece and what you were talking about, this anxiety is destroying your students? I

noticed that I have some teens, and I don't think it's destroying them necessarily, but it's definitely an issue. Yeah, to be fair, I didn't write that quote. That was the New York Times, you know, blow quote to kind of, but I do think, you know, I mean, if you look at the level of mental health dysfunction we're seeing in our college students, it's really unprecedented, right? Nationally, over 40% of college students report being too depressed to function most days, over 65% report feeling overwhelmingly anxious. you know more than two-thirds and uh and what we're seeing is around 10 percent of students regularly report being suicidal or at least feeling so suicidal that they've seriously considered taking their life in the last year so

that number is more than 10 percent nationally and like which could be pandemic related correct no this is actually pre-pandemic so the last national college health report was 2019 and so some of these numbers have gotten even worse and so there's this really open question of like, what has happened? These rates of depression and anxiety in many cases have doubled in just the last eight or nine years, right? So it's not just the normal like, oh, maybe it's more awareness or it's the pandemic. Or we're studying it more. It's being studied. Maybe they were unhappy before and we didn't know it. Yeah. And I think there is something to that. You know, students before a test, you know, back in my day would say like, oh, I have butterflies in my stomach. Now people are like, I'm anxious. Or, you know, I'm upset that, you know, this boy didn't call me back. Now I'm depressed. Right. So I think we have more clinical terms for this. But again, if you look at, you

know, real markers, again, cases of suicide, these kinds of things, all of these rates are going up, and they're going up quite significantly. I mean, the big question is, like, why? And I think we don't have a great handle on exactly what the answer is yet. Well, what would be your feeling if you had to, you know, obviously, Facebook got an enormous amount of attention for Instagram, and I don't think the research is quite there yet. I think it got a lot of attention because politicians and the media can seize on this. It's anecdotally quite true. You can see it, right? If you talk to kids. I mean, if you plot the rates, even just if you plot the rate of iPhones, right, or just having a smartphone and these rates of depression, the curves hang on to each other perfectly. But of course, correlation doesn't equal causation.

Another thing that we know is just different is parenting styles, right? You know, I get anxious as a Yale, you know, professor, I get anxious parents calling me about students' grades, about students' rooming situations. You know, this just, again, it's anecdotal, but it's different than it was five years ago, where you really have parents stepping in to solve kids' problems in a different way. And lots of scientists like Julia Lithgott-Hames writes about this a lot. She's a former Stanford dean who talks about, you know, what does this teach kids? It teaches kids like everything's scary, you know, from the tiniest roommate problem to getting a B plus on an exam that is a level that parents need to call in.

But it also teaches kids that they're helpless in this. There's a sense of kind of learned helplessness that's happening in this generation where they don't solve their own problems. You know, it's interesting because I'm kind of the opposite of people would imagine. I'm much more controlling, but I'm not. Like I was talking to one of my kids yesterday about something. I'm not going to say what it is because it's very private. And it was something significant. You know what I mean? And I literally was like, you got to figure that out for yourself. I don't know. I don't have an answer. And often with my sons, the older ones, I'm often like, yeah, well, good luck. Good luck with that. Hope it works out for you. And I think it's something

I tend to let them do because they need the struggle. They need to figure it out more than others. But I do see parents, it drives me crazy at schools, doing everything for their kids. You know what I mean? Like making sure there's like the most safe they could be um and it's i find it really disturbing to watch these poor kids and we know i mean there's some lovely work on what happens cognitively when you do this to kids um there's a scholar uh julia leonard here at yale and she studies if you give just say toddlers a like problem box to solve like a puzzle box that could you know it's hard but they can kind of figure it out. And you look at what happens when a parent intervenes, when they say, oh, let me just do that for you. What she finds is that if you give them new puzzle boxes, kids will look to help more quickly. They'll generalize, basically, I'm not good at

solving these problems. Otherwise, why would someone jump in? And so we think of all these actions as just kind of getting kids through the hump. But functionally, what parents are doing in these cases is teaching kids, I don't believe that you're able to solve this, which either means the problem is huge, or you're just not that good at this stuff, right? You know, you maybe you just don't have the skill set for this. And, you know, I think parents don't mean to be doing this isn't what parents intend to do. Some do. Yeah, maybe some do. But hopefully not many. But you know, the consequences are bigger than I think parents sometimes assume. I agree. You know, when I was growing up, the notion that like there were, I went to an all boys high school and there were guys whose parents kind of did everything for them. I was lucky enough to have parents who didn't, you know, they were more like Kara, you know, like, you gotta figure that out on your own, or you're gonna have to go do that apologizing, you're gonna have to have that conversation,

I'm not going with you. And I've often had this, it's kind of a joke, but I'm kind of not joking when I say like, it kind of feels like if your teenage kids like you, you might not be doing it right. Yeah, exactly. If your teenage kids don't like you, you might be doing something right. If your teenage kids are messing up, you might be doing something right. You know, if they're getting the worst grades they've ever got in their first semester of college, that's good. That means they're challenging themselves. That means they're sorting it out on their own and making the appropriate kinds of failures. I think today's kids are really failure deprived. And I think it really connects to their mental health, right?

It's one of the reasons you become anxious. If you've never messed anything up, then the tiniest mess up seems enormous. It seems like the kind of thing that you should be really worried about. And so, yeah. So, one of the things that's interesting when you talk about something like that is the ability, you're talking about resilience in a weird way, and I know that there's been books about that or grit or whatever you call it. It is much harder with social media there. There's no question. I just happen to have kids that aren't ruled by it. But they definitely, you know, I've had so many instances of people leave you on read, like on Snapchat, or judging if they don't text you back because of the immediacy

of it. It definitely does affect them. That was one thing I was talking about with one of my sons. He's like, well, they didn't text me back. I'm like, well, then they didn't. I don't know what to tell you. You're going to go play the guitar. I don't know what to say. But it does bring on an extra added level of not just FOMA, but also anxiety that you're somehow left out. When you say correlation doesn't mean causation, where are the studies on this? Where are the studies on this? Because I do think it's very clear that for not just kids, but everybody, this constant barrage of information, which is either upsetting or, you know, you can see visual stories.

Not that they weren't there when we were growing up, but it was much, you know, we had Nixon, we had everything. You know, the falling apart of this and that and this. At one point, I thought pollution was going to kill us all that week. But how do you look at social media and where it is? How do you study that? Yeah, it's tricky, right? Because we don't have a great control group, right? I mean, ideally, we'd have a control group of a whole generation that wasn't on social media. But if there was such a control, I don't think such a control group exists. But if they did, they'd be maybe non-neurotypical in their own way, right, in the current generation. So it's hard. What we do know is like anytime you look at these kinds of correlations or experimental studies where you have people get off social media for a little bit of time, rates of things like depression and anxiety do go down.

But it's nuanced, right? do go down. But it's nuanced, right? You know, there's evidence, for example, that active Facebook use, Facebook in particular, Facebook's the platform that's been studied the most just because it's been around the longest, frankly. But active Facebook use where you're really connecting socially and picking part in groups, not just passively lurking, there's some evidence that that doesn't have as much of a mental health hit as, for example, passive social use. So it kind of depends how you're using it, who you're using it with, what you're using it for. I actually think one of the biggest hits that social media has on teen mental health is through their sleep. There's lots of evidence that, you know, a ton of 15-year-olds wind up sleeping with their phone,

even 13-year-olds are sleeping with their phone. And I know what happens when my phone is with me at night. It's very tempting to look at it. It means I'm sleeping less. And just a hit on sleep can have a huge effect on students' mental health. And I actually think we could solve a lot of this mental health crisis if we just got students to sleep more. And one of the easiest ways to get them to sleep more is to move their phones away from, I think that one of the- That's an Arianna Huffington thing. Yes, exactly. For her thing. Remember the bed? She tried to give me one. I'm like, get that bed away from me.

I have one and I actually have my phone sleep in the bed and it's helpful. Like the phone goes to bed. She did, she did. The phone goes to bed, I go to bed. Wait, there's a bed for your phone? It's like a little like doll bed, but it's for your phone.

So it's like, you don't have to be worried about your iPhone. It's comfy. It's over. It's got a little charging port. It's very functional. It's somewhere else. It doesn't go on. It sounds like a master. You know, the reason I do keep my phone is that he's channeling Julia Fox, who makes him happy. So are billionaires happier than the rest of us? What are the things you look at in this class,

besides, I'm going to get away from social media, but what makes people happier than others? Do you imagine? Yeah, it's not what we think. It's not money. It's not accolades. It's not this stuff. Well, I should update, right? So it depends where you are.

If you're living well below the poverty line, if you can't put food on your table or a roof over your head, yes, giving you a living wage is definitely going to help. Right now, though, in the U.S., or at least in a 2009 study in the U.S., if you start earning over $75K, doubling or tripling your salary isn't going to have any improvement in your long-term happiness. It's not going to reduce your stress levels. It's not going to improve your positive mood, even though we think it will. things I teach in this class is that we have misconceptions when it comes to our happiness. We think more money, we think better grades, we think more accolades, we think changing our circumstances is the path to happiness. But often it's about changing our behaviors and our mindset, right? Becoming a little bit more present, becoming a little bit more grateful, engaging in more social connection in real life. These are the paths to happiness. You know, it's not getting the raise and the, you know, promotion at work that we thought. It's really different than we often expect.

The jump from happiness between someone like you said, who's making at least 75k, basically your housing, your food, and your health insurance is taken care of like relatively painlessly. And the measure of happiness from those people to billionaires is not that large from what I understand. That's right. There was one, you know, there's always new studies and kind of controversies over this. There's a famous paper by Danny Kahneman and Angus Deaton, two separate Nobel Prize winners, right? That was the paper that showed, you know, 75K was, you know, at that point, any more funds, you're not going to get much happier. There was a recent paper by Matthew Killingsworth that sort of challenged this. And what he finds when you look at really big ranges, yeah, you can see some wiggle room,

but the wiggle room when you look and really look in the paper is like teeny. It's like you can go from a 60 out of 100 on a happiness scale to a 61 out of 100 on a happiness scale, but you have to quintuple your income. You know, you have to go from like $100,000 to $700,000. And what I often say to my students is like, okay, you could put in the time and energy to quintuple your income, or you could write three things you're grateful for in your gratitude journal at night, and that will have a five-fold increase on your happiness bigger than quintupling your income, right? You could talk to a stranger on the train, and that will vastly and much more significantly improve

your positive mood. So it's not so much that money doesn't make us happy. It's like it doesn't move in as big a way as we assume. I was talking to Scott one of the last times I saw him last week, actually. And I was, I mentioned my tailor, the guy around the corner from me who like, you know, alters my clothes. He's from Korea, loves what he does, loves his job. He's not making a fortune. I walk the dogs past his shop at like 10.30 on a Sunday night, and there he is. I can hear classical music playing, and he's like mending a garment or whatever he's doing. And I say to myself, he won. He won. He is so content there. You know, whether it's the bartender who loves his job and is not looking to have a yacht and a penthouse, like, if you found that happiness, that contentment,

you won. Yeah. On my podcast, The Happiness Lab, I interviewed this guy who on Yale's campus goes by Marty. He's the pest control guy. He's the guy that, you know, if there's a mouse in some student's room or we find a cockroach in the dining hall or something like that, he gets called and he's the happiest guy. And when you talk to him, he's like, I think I have the best job. I got like a company truck I get to drive around in. I have all this social connection. I talk to people all the time and I help them solve their problems. There's something that they feel kind of a little gross and shameful about. And I come in, I get to chat with them and I fix it. And he's like, I have the best job. And it's like, you wouldn't think like, you know, snakes and creepy crawlies and cockroaches would make your

job great. But he's happy. And I think that's a message not a single one of my Yale students is like, when I grow up, I want to be a pest control operator. But they all still think they want to be happy. And so I think, you know, we need to kind of come to terms with that conception we have about what a happy life is might be wrong. Talk a little bit about those connections. Is it having family? Is it friendships? Is there something that adds more than anything else to it?

Yeah, it's really all of the above. I mean, you know, it's great to connect with really close personal friends and close family members. But there's evidence that talking to a stranger on the train on your commute to work can significantly improve your positive mood, right? It's really just other humans in real life, not scrolling through your social media feed, right? Like talking in real life. And I think, you know, we've all kind of felt the hit of this a little bit with working from home and a lot that's gone on in the pandemic. We're losing these weak tie mini interactions. But those are the things that often, you know, fill up our leaky happiness tire, as it were, much more than we often expect. So three million students have taken this course

on Coursera, correct? It's enormous amounts. Why do you think so many people are seeking this answer to happiness? Yeah, I mean, I think we've always been worried about happiness, right? Like it's in the Declaration of Independence, right? It's like up there with life, liberty, right? But I think lately, you know, we've been sold a lot of false promises. I mean, look at my Yale students. I think so many of them believed if I killed myself in high school and I didn't sleep and I put everything on hold, then I'd get to college and I'd be happily ever after. And then they get to Yale and it's like, oh, the carrot just moved. Now I have to get into medical school or I have to get my investment banking job. Right. And so I think there's all these cultural notions. The achievement wheel. Exactly. I talk about it all the time when

I meet students. It's the American dream, not the American promise. Yes, exactly. But the dream is wrong, right? Like if we dream to, you know, have a close relationship with our family members and a job that just gave us enough money, we might we good. And so I think that the reason that so many people are seeking out answers is like, you know, the current culture isn't giving them to us. People are putting time and effort into improving their well-being and they're putting the effort in and it's just not working. And so they're like, something must be wrong. And so I think, you know, that was true before and then the pandemic hit. And I think people were really looking for answers of how to navigate this stuff. People had a little bit more time on their hands. And so many folks signed up online to learn more. And they were worried.

What makes, I'd like to know what each do, what makes each of you happy? What makes me very happy is when I am able to, my dreams are not grand, you know, when I'm able to pay for my housing, my food, and feed my dogs, and have my health insurance taken care of painlessly, and maybe some nice shoes to wear, like, and friends to share things with, you know, I love sharing things, and I love being with friends. So, that makes me very happy. What about you, Dr. Santos? Yeah, I mean, my husband makes me happy. My students mostly, most of the time, make me happy. Springtime makes me happy, just like walking around and seeing the daffodils poking up.

I've just planted some pumpkins and they're doing that thing where they're, you know, they're just coming out and I'm like, baby pumpkins, baby pumpkins make me happy. I think a final thing that makes us happy that we're all deficient in right now is time. A lot of work in social science on what's called time affluence, the sense that you have some spare time. I know when I'm famished on that, then that I'm not feeling so good. So yeah, those are the things that make me happy. Time affluence. Affluence, time affluence. You're affluent in time, George. I like to clean. I mean,

I love my family. I love my kids. My kids make me the most happy, but- I was going to say, your kids bring you a lot of joy. They do. They do. One time, I was having a problem at work, and I literally said this to someone. They were being a pain about something dumb. And I go, you know what? I don't give a fuck.

My kids love me. And they were like, what? And I'm like, fuck you. That's true. Mic drop. Mic drop. It was great. They were sort of shocked.

I was like, yeah, I don't really care what you think of me. But what's interesting is when I was talking to these students, getting back to students, and then I want to finish up with one more question, and George might have one more, is I was having dinner with a group of Stanford Business School students, all of whom were delightful. It was really a great group of people. And it was men and women. It was quite diverse.

And it was really lovely. But they all definitely had that anxiety. And they asked me what, what they should do, like, you know what I mean, to be, to be successful. What's my, my, my prescription. And I said, you gotta, you gotta quit more. You gotta just stop. And like, I think I'm much more successful than most people because often when I'm unhappy, I stop. I'm like, nope, now I'm going to do this. And I think when you're on that achieve, I do that with my, one of my sons right now with a college thing. I'm like, he's like, what if this, I'm like, don't frigging worry about it. It'll be fine. Like it's just, it literally will not matter at all. And so one of the things I used to do with my, in my kid's school with homework is my, my bête noire at

schools, right? The amount of homework that they spend doing, it makes them anxious. And I used to tell them, don't do it. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. It just doesn't matter. And I would have teachers call me, stop telling your children homework doesn't matter. I'm like, it doesn't. It doesn't.

Let me just give you that piece of information. It doesn't make them smarter. It certainly makes them more anxious. And, you know, if they get bad grades, so be it. I don't know what to tell you, but they're very smart kids. And so it was a really interesting thing when my son then got a D in Spanish. And this is why I decided I was the best parent ever. And he goes, I go, Louie, a D, what the heck?

And he goes, at least it's not an F. And I was like, well, it is an F, but good for you. Good for you. Anyway. Good answer, Louie. Good answer. George, any last questions? Doctor, the older I get, I feel like the less I know and also the less I need. Meaning,

when I was in my 20s and I moved to New York to pursue, you know, work as an actor and stuff like that. It's not that dreams have shifted over time. But the older I get, I find that the less I need. I don't have grand designs. I don't need a palace. I'm not looking for a Ferrari. I just want a few good relationships. I want to have some good laughs before I go and enjoy the people in my life. I don't need the stuff, the catalog that gets thrown at us, particularly on social media. Am I crazy? I guess that's my question. That sounds like those sound like great strategies. Go for experiences, not material goods, like be present, be social. All of those are right out of my happiness playbook. But

this is also something that gets better in middle age. If you look at the arc of happiness across a life, it too is not what you expect. I think you look at every wrinkle commercial and think like, oh my gosh, as soon as I hit 40, it's downhill in terms of happiness. But actually, kind of as you leave work, as your kids leave the house, that's often a big boost in happiness. Around that time, retirement, another big boost in happiness. But it's not sad. You know, the trajectory is an awkward one. Yeah, I know. Yeah, one more. Almost there then. Almost there, I think, is the answer. But yeah. I now have a four-month-old.

Oh, I see. Yeah, that'll, you know, 18 years. It goes by fast. I don't care. I'll be good. But that's the thing. It's a thing to remember. A thing to look forward to is that, you know, even as your body's kind of breaking down overall, statistically speaking, your well-being will probably go up. What do you think the biggest challenge to finding happiness is? If you had to, I know you can't, you don't want to stack rank them, but there probably is one big challenge. And what's wrong with sadness, I guess? What's wrong with sadness sometimes? Well, the biggest, I think, challenge to happiness is that we get it wrong. Like, we kind of have these things that we're going for that we think, oh my gosh, once I get it, you know, I get the Ferrari, I get the accolade at work, I get the A in Spanish. You think you're going to get that and it works, but this is not

how happiness works. I think the biggest problem with happiness is that we get it wrong. And the sadness question is relevant. One thing that we get wrong is that we think like true happiness, a true sense of purpose in life is really about being happy all the time. Like it's some sort of yellow smiling emoji like beaming at you. And that's not right. That's toxic positivity. What we know from truly happy people is that people experience all kinds of emotions. Like truly happy people are okay with their negative emotions.

They have the full gamut of the kinds of experiences that happen. And so I think this is another thing we need to do and that especially, you know, my college students need to do is to find ways to be okay with negative emotions. It's okay to be sad. It's normative to be sad in the face of sad stuff. It's part of the human experience. Yeah, normative to be anxious in the face of certain experiences. And so we need to allow these things that might not feel so good at the time, but as you said, allow for a full human life. Heartbreak and pain, they're part of the journey. It's true. Do you think it's going to change? Or is it just we've dragged these kids into our own unhappiness in a way that's really significant compared to before?

I'm hopeful. I mean, I'm hopeful that, you know, a quarter of the entire Yale student body wanted to take my class. They were looking for evidence-based practices and evidence-based strategies they could use to feel better. You know, when I see these kids, they don't like this culture of feeling depressed and anxious, and they really want to do something to change it. And so when I talk to the young people today, I'm hopeful. I'm hopeful that we can come up with a better path. It's an interesting thing because I spent a lot of time thinking about this with my own kids and the kids that I talked to. And one of the things that at this dinner I had, I was talking about, I was ending a relationship, not one of the most current ones. And this person dragged me into couples therapy, which I always think is the last stop on the relationship train.

And the doctor said, how are you feeling, Karen? I said, I feel like watching television. And she was like, what? And I said, it makes me happy. I like watching television. This doesn't, so I'd like to watch television. And she goes, and then my person I was with goes, you're blocking. I said, it's working. I was like, I don't know what to tell you.

It was great. And I was very happy. I was like, give me a fudgicle and an episode of Law & Order. I'm very happy. I'm very happy. You said fudgicle. Wow. I love that.

Fudgicles will make you happy. I'm going to write a book called The Fudgicle Lab. Anyway, Dr. Santos, I love your podcast. It's great. It's called The Happiness Lab. I did not get into Yale, which made me unhappy briefly, and then I didn't give a fuck. But I'm revisiting all the schools right now that I didn't get into, so it's kind of a reminder. Anyway, you can find The Happiness Lab wherever you listen to podcasts.

And if you're lucky enough to get into Yale, you can have her as a professor, but you can also see these courses on Coursera. They're well worth your time. Thank you, Dr. Santos. Thanks so much worth your time. Thank you, Dr. Santos. Thanks so much for having me. Thank you, Dr. Santos. All right, George, when I see you next, I'm bringing you a fudgicle. I'm just telling you. Please.

By the way, you know what something else is going to make you happy? Watch The Atom Project by Ryan Reynolds. Always makes me happy. I love his movies. I know. I don't care if they're shitty. They're great. Good.

All right, George, one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions. shitty. They're great. Good. All right, George, one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions. As a Fizz member, you can look forward to free data, big savings on plans, and having your unused data roll over to the following month. Every month at Fizz, you always get more for your money. Terms and conditions for our different programs and policies apply. Details at phys.ca. Okay, George, it's time for predictions. I'd like you to make one.

Please do. All right. This is not a big reach, but my prediction is that we are going to see more horrible behavior from men that goes unpunished or even rewarded. Oh, dear. I was honestly surprised to see that Louis won. Like, that actually surprised me. It was like, welcome back. Really? Doesn't surprise any women. But again, you know, the prediction is that we're going to see more men behave badly. And it's going to go unpunished, they're going to get away with it. I'm one of these people who does not get excited on Twitter, when something is discovered in this investigations on January 6th

or Trump, because I think Trump is going to get away with all of it. And if he doesn't, call me when he is not arrested, not on trial, but when he is convicted, then I'll get excited. All right. Yeah, because people get their hopes up in some fashion, weirdly. Yes, they do. You know what I say? Guess what? Someday he's going to die just like the rest. It's discovered in this investigation. This is true.

This is how I think about it. I'm like, well, you know, someday. And who knows? And it's not my job to bring him to heaven or hell. All that KFC, you'd think it would happen sooner. Some people do well with that stuff. Look at Rupert Murdoch. He's still hanging on.

And then there's- You know what I say. Oh, Jerry Hall. Jerry Hall, Powerball winner. I mean, what a girl. I guess. But you know what? Think about what you have to do for that.

I know. She doesn't seem unhappy. I saw the Warhol diaries. She seems okay. Yeah, that's good. That's a fair point. Okay, I think Judge Jackson's nomination to the Supreme Court, I think it will pass. But some of the Republican virtue signaling has been really depressing. Likely qualified. They all say she's qualified. They all think she'd be a good colleague on the court, at lunch or weren't like invited to their parties or whatever.

And they're furious about it. And they're furious that there is this black woman who is the smartest one in the room and it drives them nuts. Behind the scenes, they like say an opposite thing, which makes me, I literally sometimes walk away from these people when they do that. I'm like, I don't want to, I don't care.

You're not, I'm not going to like it. I like you less if you, I'd like you to be crazy as ever. Speaking of which, my prediction, Sarah Palin announced that she'll run for Congress in Alaska. I think she's going to like you. I like you less. I'd like you to be crazy as ever. Speaking of which, my prediction, Sarah Palin announced that she'll run for Congress in Alaska. I think she's going to lose badly. I hope I will. I'll be sort of peripherally tuning into that show. I don't think Alaskans go for that bullshit. I just think they don't. They're much more, you know, they can be very conservative, but I don't think they're that kind of conservative. They're crazy. The only thing she has hope is if the crazies come out, and I think they're less crazy up there in Alaska, although there's plenty of crazies everywhere.

It'll be more work for Tina Fey. Anyway, I think she's going to not win, and it's going to be another sad, pathetic chapter to her sad, pathetic life. Sort of peripherally tuning into that. She's electrified the populace for a very brief second, and she's managed to dwindle it down ever since. Anyway, George. Kara. What are you going to do to be happy today? Tell me one thing.

Today, I'm going to take my dogs for a nice walk in Central Park. All right. I think you're a very happy person. You bring happiness to people. I love your stuff on Twitter. Oh, thank you. I try. Anyway, George, thank you for doing this. That's the show. We'll be back on Friday for more with Scott Galloway, who will probably is now twisting himself into

pretzels trying to figure this Elon thing out. And I can't wait to hear his perspective because it's like, it's hard because so many, so many sides for him. Scott's got feelings about it. Like really distinct. He's got feelings on all sides because he wants the stock to go up. Anyway,

I think he sold his Twitter stock, I believe. Anyway, will you please read us out? I would be delighted. Thank you. It'll be a masterpiece. Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Evan Engel, and Taylor Griffin.

Ernie Endredot engineered this episode. Make sure you're subscribed to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. A masterpiece. Masterpiece. Masterpiece.