Pivot - E.U. Tech Regulation, Bud Light Sales, and Kara Tries the Apple Vision Pro

Episode Date: June 16, 2023

Kara has a pretty rave review of Apple's Vision Pro, but can she sell Scott on trying it out? Also, E.U is on a tear of technology regulation, including antitrust charges for Google over its advertising practices, and regulation for AI. Plus, Bud Light sales are in a slump following the brand’s handling of the Dylan Mulvaney controversy. And a listener question on what Kara and Scott would do if they were in Linda Yaccarino’s shoes. We’ve got some listener mail episodes coming your way soon, so send us your questions! Call 855-51-PIVOT or go to nymag.com/pivot. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Just go to Indeed.com slash podcast right now and say you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? You need Indeed. Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.

I have seen Vision Pro and used it, and Martha Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher. I have seen Vision Pro and used it, and Martha Stewart gave me fresh eggs. That's my time this week. Hi, Scott. Well, one of those things is a winner. It's not. You're wrong. You're wrong. Do you want to cover the eggs, or do you want to cover the first? No, survey says. What do you think of the Mixed Reality headset? I have to say I thought it was fantastic. I did. Really? Yes. Really? Yes. Really?

Yeah. Let me start with the negatives, all right? It's still a little heavy. It is. No matter how you slice it, these things are heavy. And it's not as heavy as any of the others that I've used. But nonetheless, it's a big enough device. But it's pretty small compared to every single one I've used before.

I thought their battery thing worked fine. It's a tiny little thing you put in your pocket. You're probably going to use this thing at a desk more than anything. So it didn't feel weird. I've had lots of battery packs on my back. They're usually quite heavy. This was not. It fits really nicely on the head and adjusts really well.

It's beautifully designed, I'll tell you that. You can take these things. I think they're light shields. They have a name for them. And they can come off and change based on your face, essentially. Everything about it is beautiful. The back of the band is gorgeous. I'd fix the top a little bit, but otherwise it was great.

They put my glasses in it. They checked my eyes, and then they great. They put my glasses in it. They checked my eyes and then they put glasses that matched my prescription in it, lenses, which I thought was great because that's a big issue with me. And they didn't try to put glasses under it. Pretty much everybody else does. You put your glasses on. And then when you get in it, I don't know what to say. I thought it was beautifully done. First time I saw it that I thought I would use it. I'm going to buy it. What would you use it for, Cara? A couple things.

The entertainment stuff is fantastic. They have a couple things that are immersive, which I think they have to make and other people have to make. Like, I felt like Alicia Keys was up in my grill. I'll tell you that. It was really, they have her like singing at you. Okay, so porn. Porn, right. Sports. Sports. You would love it with porn. Porn, right. Sports.

Sports. You would love it with soccer. You're right behind the goal. Like you're right there. Basketball. Racing. There was one thing where a woman was walking across a canyon on a tightrope. You're on the tightrope.

It feels like you're on the frigging tightrope. And she's coming at you. And you're like, I'd like to get off this tightrope. It feels like you're on the frigging tightrope. And she's coming at you, and you're like, I'd like to get off this tightrope. And at one point, they have this thing called Dinosaur, which, of course, they're using these demos to impress people. But I've seen versions of these at every one of these. Dinosaurs. All right. You're there. You're looking at the pretty dinosaurs.

It's quite beautiful. The screen itself, whatever resolution they're using is gorgeous. And it walks out of the frame into you and you can walk up to it and see it so closely, like you can move close to it and see the scales. And the regular movie watching is excellent. So movie watching for sure. I usually sit with an iPad and my AirPod Maxes, right? When I watch a movie by myself. I wouldn't have my iPad. I just watch it on this. And I wouldn't have my AirPod Maxes.

I would use it for work. I'd use it for calls. I thought the avatar was still creepy, but better than any of the other avatars that they make for you. It's a FaceTime person that looked like the person you were talking to, but still was an avatar. I would use it for working. If you had a keyboard, a wireless keyboard, and for screens, you don't need a screen anymore. You don't need to buy a big screen. You can work with it.

And I felt fine using files. And I could see working with it. If it got slightly lighter, I suspect. One of the things that's cool is looking at photos. It looks like you're in the scene. It's like if you did your kid's birthday party, it looks like you're in the scene. So if you do one of those panorama shots, it feels like you're in the place you took the picture in. So you can experience it for real as opposed to taking a picture of it.

And then lastly, I would say things like meditation apps. Fantastic. Again, something I'd use with the AirPod Max, but it gives you visualizations that are quite beautiful. I don't think I would use the laptop anymore. That's what I would say. You think you're working on it? So let me just ask a couple of questions.

So what you just described to me feels like the sensation I felt when I was a kid and I went to the Air and Space Museum in D.C. I saw my first IMAX film, The Dream is Alive. And I remember just being totally blown away. That, yes. Just sensory overload. Yeah. And IMAX, a publicly traded company, is still an amazing place to see Batman or a Star Wars film. But for regular films, people feel a little bit exhausted or kind of like a piece of beaten flank steak by the time they leave the theater. Sure. And that's being generous. You think this has broader appeal and that you would watch, for example, you talked about work.

You wouldn't feel exhausted watching a two and a half hour movie on this. That's my first question. No, not a movie. The movies aren't immersive. There's an immersive zone, right? And then there's just look, it's like looking at a movie on an iPad. That's what it felt like. But the thing that made me suspicious, and you tell me if my suspicions are unwarranted here, is that I thought it was purposeful they didn't let anyone try it on for longer than 30 minutes.

Were you allowed to wear it for longer than 30 minutes? I was wearing it for longer than 30 minutes. Oh, I was wearing it for longer. The jungle cat. I was wearing it. I think I was. I wasn't nauseous at any point during the thing. That was another thing.

You can see yourself having this thing on your head for 8, 10, 14 hours, which is sometimes. I don't think I would put on for 14 hours. I take it, put it on and take it off. But I do that with my computer. I move away from my screen and things like that. Right. It's not hard to take off, right? It's not hard to put on.

One thing that they did do well is you can see everybody in the room. You're dealing with the room, not a black place that you're moving. In old ones, like you're moving stuff around a dark landscape. The movement with your hands is astonishing. That is a big move forward. Usually you have to hold. Your hand is the mouse. That's right.

Your eyes and your hand become, you no longer need an appliance. You don't. And those have always bugged me about all the ones I've used. I don't like holding controllers, right? And I know kids are used to it and this and that, but you don't need to hold a controller. And one of the things you can do, just like you remember on that Tom Cruise movie,

Minority Report, you know how he moved things? Yeah, he swiped it with his hand or whatever. That's what I did. I was like, put the pictures over here. I'll deal with them later. Or you can close them pretty easily. So yes, I could use that. And you can see other people in the room. So, if someone looks directly at you and you look at them, your screen becomes, you can see them. It becomes, I guess, not opaque in some way. And I didn't see the other side, so I couldn't tell. But I could see people and talk to them, and they could see my eyes for sure. And so that was interesting. Although you can turn that off if you don't want to be interrupted also.

That's another thing. But you certainly can see everyone and the entire room. You can always see your hands. When you put your hands in front of your face, you see them in front of you. I was, look, it's a version one, but version one is quite good, I have to say. So when you said Tom Cruise films, you were referring to losing it. No, no, no, I was referring to Minority Report. Got it. Yeah, I thought it was the sports. If I was saying for you, sports, I think you would love watching sports on this thing. I mean,

they call it best seat in the house, which they've tried to sell before. I got to tell you, it is the best seat in the house. Like you can be down on the field. Here's the thing. I see that your point about sports. I go to sports to engage with other people. And one of the things I don't like about this and AI is I think it's further sequestering us. But you don't think that. You don't think it isolates people even more at work? No, because I think I'm talking sequestering us, but you don't think that you don't think it isolates people even more at work? No, because I think I'm talking about watching sports yourself or watching a movie yourself. Right. Honestly, I don't when I watch most people, I don't talk to people. I don't.

If I want to do that, I'll go to a movie theater and people talk to each other there. I feel like the thing is going to kill. And I asked them about this is, you know, they have those big, beautiful Apple screens that you attach your laptop to. That business is done. Like, they're cannibalizing that business quite significantly. If you were a designer, I think you'd want to use this. You can even call Uber on it, I suspect. You know, you can use all their apps. So, your prediction is, you think this is a winner? I think eventually it will win. I think it's going to be a winner in the office. I'll tell you that. For people who work at home, I think it's going to be a winner.

I feel, and gaming, I didn't do any gaming on it, but I imagine. Yeah, imagine. It imagined, whatever people make, at the time that Apple, just the iPhone, there weren't many apps, right? And then there were, it was done. It was game over, essentially. And everybody copied that. I would be embarrassed if I was meta, given what they've done. Not, trust me. Trust me, Kira, this is the last reason they should be embarrassed.

I understand. But it's like, if you look at the Mark Zuckerberg presentation versus this, this is adult. This is- Isn't this a $3,500 attempt to show everyone what a shitty product a $500 product is? Look, let me tell you. What do you spend $3,500 on? One of those big screens. That's how much they cost. If you think about economics, economics is not only a function of how much money you spend, but how fast that product loses its value.

You buy a $20,000 car. The average life is 10 years. It declines $2,000 a year in value. You buy a $20,000 car, the average life is 10 years, it declines 2,000 a year in value. You buy a big screen TV, you can get a really good one for 1,000 bucks. I'm not talking about a TV, I'm talking about a big Apple screen, if you're working on a big Apple screen.

See, this is one of my points, reasons why I don't think it works. It has a very big market. And that is, the thing is about 4,000 bucks with sales tax. I think this technology is so advanced and cutting edge that you generously,

it's outdated in 24 months, meaning it depreciates $2,000 a year. This is the same cost as an entry-level Hyundai. I don't agree. I think it's for people who do work and stuff like this. If you buy one of those big,

I'm thinking of more work things. If you use it for design or anything else on a big Apple screen. But that screen will last those big, I'm thinking of more work things. If you use it for design or anything else on a big Apple screen. But that screen will last five years. I don't think this is going to last. I don't think this thing's going to last longer than 12 months.

I don't know. The technology here is so sophisticated. They're going to make, what they're going to do is make improvements to the device itself, right? The software is just going to update. But I'm talking about the format

they've got going on here is correct. It's finally like, okay, finally someone's done it. Put this stuff in the room. You can see it in the room you're in, and it feels like another screen, except it's not a screen. It's just a wall, essentially. The other thing you can do is you can – there's only – this is what I love about Apple. There's only two buttons on the thing.

There's a button to take a picture or a video from it, and you just click it. There's a crown, just like on a watch or on the AirPod Maxes, that you can dial up the immersion or dial it down, and then you click it to bring back the home screen if you need it. I suspect there's going to be voice commands to do that, home screen, this and that. I kept thinking about how important AI will be to this. If you had a personal assistant, I could see you interacting with your personal assistant on this quite a lot. Like, hey, get me a flight. Show me flights right now. Okay, interesting. Okay, what about this? I'm going to give this a thumbs up, Scott. And they want you to come and see it. They have all listened to you.

I go on. I had to listen to things about Scott Galloway quite a bit during my session. Apple is quite aware of you. Well, I want to look, I'm an evolving human who's deeply flawed, and you have more experience in technology, and you have tried the thing. So the good money is on what you're saying, because you have tried the thing. So the good money is on what you're saying because you actually tried the thing. What I would bet in terms of actual product resonance and the role it's going to play in the product portfolio, when BMW puts out an 850, or even when Mercedes puts out an S-Class or when Gulfstream launches their G700, the market is pretty small, but it's sort of their R&D lab,

and they have the most sophisticated technology. And then they let that technology waterfall down to the 7-series and the 5-series and the 3-series. So fly-by-wire technology only used to be in the Falcon 9X, now it's in the 7X and then the 2000LX. I would bet that, quite frankly, the market here is not that big, but spatial computing and some of the things you're talking about will filter down to some of their other products. I just don't think the market is big enough to move the needle for that. Here's what I would put to you. Because I was – let me just tell you, they did it at this Apple space down in Soho, near your apartment, actually, on Duane Street. And it was – of course, it was stunning.

It was such a beautiful marketing space. They're great. No one creates. They take a page out of the Chanel, Karl Lagerfeld, 12-minute long, highly orchestrated, curated, manicured control launch. They could launch deep-fried Snickers, and we'd all, 40% of America and technologists and academics would believe this was the next big thing in computing, deep fried Snickers. Anyways, go ahead. They have invited you if you want to see it.

No, thanks. Oh, see, but then you can't insult it. You really can't. Of course I can. No, you're wrong. You're absolutely wrong. I have distance from this thing. I'll buy it. Yes, but I want you to try it before you insult it. I'll buy it because I'm a douchebag and I have money and I want to signal success. I'll try it and I'll give an honest review then. I don't need some highly charming, high EQ person to take me to a Tribeca loft and make me feel loved and give me a bias towards liking the product. I don't have a bias. I already liked it before, as you know, because we're arguing about it.

Which is called a bias. Yes, I had it before I went. You have an anti-bias when we go in. That's true. I have been looking at these things for years. I suspected they would do the best job. You have more credibility here than I do. Let me just say that.

All right. You don't have to go, but you should go. All right? If it's a choice between what Kara says and what Scott says on this issue, the good money is on what Kara says. I think it's going to be a big business of theirs. I do. I was like, uh-huh, I see it. The minute, it's like trying on the AirPod Max

when I tried it on, I'm like, okay, this is good. And I have tried, listen, when I tried their Ping product or several of their other products, I was like, and no. This one is from the gate. In three versions, this is going to be fantastic. It's very good right now. And if you're an early adopter, I would absolutely recommend buying it. So, more importantly, what's your favorite Tom Cruise film?

I like all of Tom Cruise's films, although I hate to say it. Pick your favorite. Pick your favorite. Minority Report. Or Born on the Fourth of July. He should have won the Oscar for that. If he wasn't so good-looking... Mission Impossible, it's coming. You and I are

going to see that. If he wasn't so good-looking, he would have won Best Actor for that. Just the same way Brad Pitt should have won it for that wonderful F. Scott Fitzgerald where he ages in reverse. Oh, that one. That was a terrible movie, though. Oh, he was fantastic in it. I know, but that was a terrible movie. He was fantastic in it. Anyways, Tom Cruise, Rob, although my favorite film, you didn't terrible movie, though. Oh, he was fantastic in it. I know, but that was a terrible movie. He was fantastic in it.

Anyways, Tom Cruise, Rob, although my favorite film, you didn't ask me, Magnolia, he was fantastic in that. There's a wonderful moment. Felicity Huffman's husband is this kind of lonely guy, and he has this huge crush on this gay bartender. And at one point, he just breaks down, and he's like, I have so much love to give, but I don't know where to put it. It's a really powerful moment. Anyways. I haven't watched that in years.

I don't remember it. Anyway, I visited, I did really good interviews with Sarah Jessica Parker and Martha Stewart. Oh, how was that? I went to her house.

Sarah Jessica Parker is a delight. Yeah. And how was Martha? Martha's amazing. I did two interviews. One I did for her podcast, which was in a see-through lobby studio at NBC down in a lobby. And she's a game gal. And then I went up to Bedford, which is where

her house is, and saw her astonishing estate, which had chickens and horses and stables. Yeah, that's called a farm. It's called a farm city, girl. I've never seen a farm like this. This is not, this was. This was no farm? This was, I don't know, it felt like it was an English countryside and everything was perfect. And then we did the podcast there.

I wanted to live there in her small house that we did that wasn't small in any way. And then she made us tea and she gave me eggs, gave me a dozen eggs. So it was great. So, it was great. The whole thing was great. That's very nice. I had a very nice time in New York. It was good. We talked about a lot of stuff, including her comments about work from home, which I think you would agree with.

She's like, nobody works hard. Work from home for five days is like working three days. You know, she's said a lot of things that are very controversial, like as you. People have been arguing with you about your, I think she's exactly on your page. And so she talked about that and did not back down for 1.1 second at all. So that was interesting. She talked a lot about her career, talked about prison. What'd she say about prison? Oh, a lot. You'll have to listen to it now. It was a lot. She said a lot about what happened and how she felt about it. And comebacks, obviously, she's had a lot of comebacks. She talked about Snoop Dogg.

She's definitely an iconic character. She's going to be remembered for a long time. One thing I'd forgotten, and she had come to all the All Things D conferences all the time and sat in the front row. She is like such an entrepreneur. Like she was thinking of six ideas. She's 81 years old. She's sitting there like- She's 81? Like, she was thinking of six ideas. She's 81 years old. She's sitting there like. She's 81? She's 81.

Ten ideas were spilled out of her head in like four seconds we were having tea. And I was like. It's too bad she's a little too young to run for president. Yeah. She's going to do Martha AI next. She's going to ingest all her content, of which there's so much, into an AI and make a recommendation system. Just pretty interesting. She's always thinking.

And she doesn't mind breaking things, which I think is speaking of eggs. Anyway, it was great. Anyway, I want you to go, if you want to do that, she wants to go see the Vision Pro. She's not too proud to go see it. She's more open-minded than me. That's why she's Martha Stewart and I'm struggling with anger and erectile dysfunction. I think you're going to have one of these and you're never coming out of it. That's what I think. That sounds really appealing, Carol. That's what I need. Why don't we introduce Scott to heroin while we're at it? See how that works out. I think you'll like it. I think you'll like it. Anyway, we have a few other things to talk about today, but let's get to our first big story.

The European Union is on a tear of technology regulation this week. First off, regulators slapped Google with fresh antitrust charges over its advertising technology practices. The executive branch of the EU went so far as to say the tech giant needs to sell part of the ad tech business off, which is something the U.S. is thinking of but has moved at a glacial pace. In the past, they've targeted monopolistic practices with fines, including three antitrust penalties totaling over $8 billion. This is the first time the EVU has said you need to split up your businesses.

Let's start with that. You and I are going to be in Europe next week with the average con lions. And I'm just curious, what do you think about this? Because the US Department of Justice has sued Google this year over monopolistic digital advertising. The UK has an investigation going. Where is this going to go?

I'm going to put on Chanel sunglasses, have an unlit cigarette, and scream out occasionally, Jackie, marry me. Oh, wait, not Europe. You're talking about the Google thing? Yeah. By the way, you and I are meeting for lunch. We are meeting for lunch. We are meeting for lunch. At my favorite hotel in the world, the Hotel DuCap Eden Rock. I am so fucking fabulous at the DuCap. Yeah. They love me there. Do they?

I get, oh my God. You pay them, right? That's why they love you. Go ahead. That's why anyone who loves me, anyone who has sex with me or likes me, I'm either making money for them or paying them directly. Can I ask you, how much does it cost to stay there? The Hotel de Cap?

Yeah. Are you uncomfortable? I think it's really weird. I was uncomfortable when I was poor. Now I'm uncomfortable now that I'm rich. For about a moment, I had the right amount of wealth.

I think it's like 2,700 euros a night. Wow. That is expensive. There's one moment, though, that makes it worth it. What? You have breakfast there out on the deck. Yeah. It's not the pool.

They have this iconic pool. They have great service. And the moment is these ridiculously ripped, handsome French guys come out. So you're at breakfast, very, very civilized. All right. And there's seagulls everywhere, which kind of brings down the vibe. And when the seagulls start getting crazy because they descend on someone's breakfast. They want to eat your food. Yeah, sure.

These two ridiculously handsome former French legionnaire men come out in these manicured, cool, tight, khaki pants and tight shirts. And on each of their arms. I don't know why my mother says you're gay, but go ahead. Gay by day, straight by night. Yeah. They have a hawk on their arm. And this hawk has a blindfold on it. And then they wait till they have everyone's attention from breakfast.

Like, what the fuck are they doing with hawks? And they take the blindfold off the hawk. And this hawk immediately takes off. Yeah. K kills a seagull. All you see is feathers fly and no more seagulls for the rest of the morning. The seagulls go crazy. They're like, let's get the fuck out of Dodge. Why don't they always get the hawk? Don't they know the hawk is coming? They don't see. I guess seagulls aren't that smart. I guess. There's hawk. Yeah. It immediately, within a millisecond, the hawk goes, seagull, kill it now. Fly 200 miles an hour at this thing. Take it out.

And then all of the seagulls are smart enough to go, get the fuck out of here. And everyone at breakfast is just like, that is worth 2,500 euros a night. Oh, my God. No, it's not. It is amazing. I'm going to come and not pay that and have it happen. We're going to have a nice lunch. I might have to come for breakfast.

We're having lunch. I hope the hawk people will be there. Scott, answer the question about Google. Okay, so. What did I? What was the question? In Europe, everyone understands that. What is going to happen?

Europe has been quite aggressive in very significant ways, as usual with tech. very significant ways, as usual with tech. And they're aiming at Google's $225 billion advertising business, which is 80% of its annual revenue. Well, one, okay. So to a certain extent, it's kind of barking at the moon a little bit because I don't know if you can break up a company that's domained in another country. What you can do is prohibit it from operating in your country until it complies with certain laws. The thing about the EU is, despite it being the largest economy in the world as a whole, I think, or maybe not since Brexit, although Britain is shrinking, I think the EU has shown

remarkable progress the last few years in terms of coordination. And you want to talk about, you know, we argue that our states are so different. The difference between the political viewpoints in Greece and Ireland and Sweden is pretty dramatically different. So I think they've demonstrated a lot of leadership here. I think GDPR was the legislation itself was ineffective. But what it did was show an ability to pass legislation against tech, which we have been unable to do, and they are making progress. And when the European Union, and they're very thoughtful and they're very smart, says this company should be broken up, I think American regulators do take notice. It also probably sends a chill across these companies in terms of acquisition. Now, you could argue that's good or bad because smaller companies want to be acquired, But there is a theme here or a philosophy, if you will, that we might be at peak big tech. And it does feel, and I've been waiting for this moment for a long time, that the immunities are

beginning to kick in on a regulatory level, that there are more cases against them that look like they might have some chances of passing or have more veracity around them. I think this is a good thing. I do not understand the legal ramifications. Yeah, I think they'll push. I think they will continue to push back. But, you know, you have the Justice Department under John Cantor, I think, is moving forward on this rather aggressively. But they haven't for a long, it's a long time. And Google can argue, look, there's Amazon now, there's this and that. They have a chance to formally respond to the charges now. If they're found guilty of antitrust violations, they could be charged up to 10% of total revenue, which is around $28 billion.

That's a big fine. They can pay the fine, but that's a big fine. That's not five, and that's not the amounts they've paid in the past. I think they'll continue to push it until, couldn't you say there's lots of competition and then now AI, la la la la, that kind of stuff. I do think in this case, Europe is showing some teeth that US has not shown, right? And the fact that they're keeping to investigate it, you're sort of like, how much investigation do you need? Take it to court, take it to court, see what happens. Obviously they want the best thing they have, but they haven't ever even tried in a significant way. And you could argue the ups and downs of the

Microsoft case, but I do think that was effective, you know, because things were pushed back on it. It had an impact and effect when you actually sue. Meanwhile, in a further challenge to big tech powers, the EU voted to push forward legislation regulating artificial intelligence. The AI Act would require generative AI systems to be reviewed before commercial release. It would also ban real-time facial recognition and systems that would carry a, quote, unacceptable level of risk. You know, again, maybe too far. I know Sam Altman had blanched at this at the same time. Then he said he wouldn't. One of the things they're also trying to do is put guardrails around how AI gets trained. Tech companies are going to fight that. Josh Hawley and Richard Blumenthal just introduced

legislation, which is really interesting, in the Senate this week saying, explicitly saying, Section 230 should not protect generative AI. It's not clear whether it does, right? I think a lot of people arguing, critics say it would quash innovation, but I don't think it is protected. You know, I think that's up for grabs, but they want to specifically carve it out. Lobbyists want regulation to focus on applications, not development. And the proposed legislation in the EU would let creators ask for a share of the profits when their work is used in AI projects. Again, the copyright issue. So, you know, there's a lot here. There's a lot going on here. And of course, Europe's leading the way rather than the U.S. Again, once again, once again. Yeah, there's a lot here. So the idea of kind of a license, so an FDA sort of makes sense,

an FDA for AI saying, like, these things have a direct impact on democracy, on people's mood, on propaganda. So the idea of some sort of regulatory body that needs to approve these things. The issue is for the EU, if they have their own FDA and the U.S. is the Wild West, the reality is the U.S. will garner more investment dollars and their generative AI companies will move further faster than EU. That's the problem because, you know, the move fast and break things, as many as externalities as it has, it has the benefit of pouring fuel on innovation. You know, people, they do move faster and they break shit, but they also learn fast. So the licensing model, the other thing is the licensing model, I think is a bad idea because typically what you end up with, and a lot of people would argue this is true of the FDA, is that it benefits the incumbents. And that is the only people with the capital and the connections and the people making these decisions in terms of their job offers after they leave that administrative body, that this type of legislation or licensing, if you will, helps the incumbents. So I would like

to see something on a multilateral basis, on a defense basis with NATO, and I'd like to see the European Union and our adversaries and the US cooperate on this stuff, the same way we cooperate on things like bioweapons and nuclear weapons. I think there needs to be a regulatory agency around all of this. Explicitly saying that this does not get a protective halo or coverage from 230, I think is a great idea. Because part of the problem, one of the reasons we've gotten this level of teen depression and weaponization of elections and misinformation is that the original legislation in, I think, 1997 around 230 specifically said protect the emergence of nascent technology firms. These companies are already not nascent.

OpenAI just raised money at a $29 billion market cap. They don't need protection. People are excited about this, but they need to be held to the same standards that every other media company is held to, including News Corp, who just got fined $750 million for misinformation. There is a fraction of the misinformation that runs rampant every day on Meta and Google. So I think that there's a lot about this. It depends what you're looking at, but I specifically like an explicit removal of protection from 230 because I think it'll force them to be more cautious. And then the final thing, I've never understood, and one of the reasons I'm an AI optimist is I've never understood why this technology,

if it can build missiles, hypersonic missiles, why can't it build missile shields? Why can't generative AI be a defensive weapon as well as an offensive weapon? licensing agreements and tools that say, all right, this Notion AI, which helps you write and organize a memo, a book, has used a lot of content. 0.0093% of this was informed by the work of Maya Angelou or Malcolm Gladwell or whoever. And there's a licensing organization that collects royalties and then distributes it back to those content authors. Explain what Notion is. You use it a lot. You talk about it back to those content authors. Explain what notion is. You use it a lot.

You talk about it a lot. Well, it's AI for writing. You can put in a memo you write and say, make this sound like more authoritative, or please find six data points around the economy, or make this tighter, or shorten this, or summarize this in a series of emails, or write a cover email for you know, just make sure it's a co-pilot for writing. When you just bark instructions for it to write something, you get something very vanilla back.

But there was a lot of writers were very Puritan and turn their noses up at a thesaurus. And of course, they all use, we all use thesauruses now. So I find this is exceptionally powerful. But you- Do you put your book in it? No. I have not. What I'm doing, so my next book is going to be on masculinity. What I have been doing is saying, here are my thoughts around masculinity and key themes.

Can you give me four ideas? And here are the eight chapters I'm thinking of doing. What chapters have I missed? What additional questions can I answer for you? How can I tighten this section? What points of data or can you give me eight interesting points of data that highlight? So it's a copy editor. It's interesting. It's a very good. That's exactly right. So it fixes.

I'm just on their choice. It fixes grammar and spelling, make shorter or longer, translate, explain, edit in voice and tone, use simpler language, et cetera. Yeah, sometimes I read my stuff and I'm like, I wrote this when I was angry. I need to tone it down. I want to sound more authoritative here. I want to sound more expert here. I want to show, I want to incorporate more data about young men and addiction. I mean, these things are just really powerful tools.

But just the same way Madonna gets compensated when her music is playing on different radio stations. And for example, I think a really interesting company I'm actually looking at is just Adobe's Firefly technology, which is a design generator of 8i, because they made a point and they were visionary here ahead of the curve. Because what they did was they only have design where it's IP friendly. They either own the designs or they figured out a way to compensate people. So they've already gone one step ahead and said, if you use Firefly, which my 12-year-old uses now and he's playing around with it, which I absolutely love, you're not in any way violating anyone's IP rights.

Which they do in the past with pictures. A lot of these sites have offered pictures. And I'm going to start playing with a bot and see if someone were to show up and ask this. I get, and I'm bragging now, I get a lot of emails every day, mostly from young men asking for advice. And I thought, well, what if I fed everything in from office hours, from all the emails, all the books I've written, all the newsletters into an LLM and created a bot. And I'm going to ask it questions and see how good a job it does of coming back with answers that feel like something I would have said. Well, you and Martha Stewart. That's exactly what she said. She said, I have so much content. If I fed it in, wouldn't it be able to answer people's questions?

Even stuff I've forgotten, I recommend it. One of the things that's interesting here is, to me, is that Europe is— it'll be interesting to be in Europe to talk to Europeans about this, but even if they do things in ways that tech companies in the U.S., which they're aiming at mostly, don't like, they're moving in the correct direction and they're moving quickly, right? And I think one of the things that is important for our legislators to do is to do the same and not make the same exact mistakes over and over and over again with these things. And because people, in this case, people are very concerned. I was at a dinner,

and over again with these things. And because people, in this case, people are very concerned. I was at a dinner, was it Livingston Awards? And we had a dinner afterwards. And, you know, the topic turned to AI, of course. And so they, of course, looked at me like, and one of the things was one, how incredibly people are confused about it in ways that I, even reporters, right, really didn't understand it. And kept talking, looking at Notion AI, they kept saying, well, we have to make sure copywriters keep their jobs. And I was like, why? You know, and I said, I'm not being rude. I just, it's like, you use spreadsheets, you use, you know, you don't do a lot of things because it's automated. And in this case, these AIs do it better. They write headlines better. And what they were doing was more like, well, we need to stop them and let people continue

to do headlines. And I was like, why? Like, AI can write 10 of them and two of them are good, and a human can pick the one that's good. It doesn't have to remove humans. Let me say these people were furious at me, except for a regular person who was like, that makes total sense to me. And I was like, it was really interesting. It was really interesting. You know, when you talk to writers about notion AI or generative AI, they get very touchy. And it's because the incumbents don't like innovation. They don't.

Anything that threatens their job, they just generally find is immoral. And what I say to the most talented writers are, the most talented people that understand this technology are going to make more money. And the people who don't understand it and just get angry and aren't willing to learn it are going to make less money. It's just that simple. The people who figured out computers went from typewriters to computers and spellcheck. I'll give you an example. I'm trying to come, I've written a book on how to achieve financial security. I have a viewpoint on it. I think there's an algorithm, an algebra to it, an equation to it, best practices, and a lot of life lessons in how to achieve economic security. And the title, the working

title right now is The Algebra of Wealth, Ach achieving economic security. My publisher came back and said, we talked to the sales team and we didn't like it. And they didn't like it. They feel like it's too wonky. And they showed me all these books and all these books are basically like how to get rich. And I'm like, I just don't want to be that straightforward. I don't like that. I feel that feels very douchebag. I went to chat GPT while we're on this call. And I said, in the voice of Scott Galloway, give me 10 book titles about best practices and strategies for achieving economic security throughout the course of your 20s, 30s, and 40s. And it came back with a bunch of like 10 ideas, and a couple of them were good.

And one of them was money code, an unapologetic path to prosperity. And I'm like, that's better than anything we've come up with today. So as a means of brainstorming, I mean, you still have to pick the right one. Yeah. Well, look, all of this also needs to be regulated at the same time. So it'll be interesting to see

if Europe's going to pull ahead. And if the U.S. doesn't act, we're going to get things that may be too strict and cause people like Samuel said, I want to do that kind of thing. So obviously they're going to push back on things they don't like. It's in their self-interest. But we'll see what happens. But Europe, good for you, Europe.

You're at least working on it. All right, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about the Bud Light marketing controversy and things around it and take a listener mail question. Fox Creative. This is advertiser content from Zelle. When you picture an online scammer, what do you see? For the longest time, we have these images of somebody sitting crouched over their computer with a hoodie on, just kind of typing away in the middle of the night. And honestly, that's not what it is anymore.

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It slid another 2.7% since the Mulvaney campaign. Last week, Modelo Especial took over Bud Light as a top-selling beer. This is a trend that was happening that's accelerated it. Both brands, however, are made by Anheuser-Busch InBev, along with Corona, Michelob, and a bunch of others. Just for clarification, Modelo is owned by Anheuser-Busch InBev everywhere except the U.S. Except the U.S.

Yeah, it's Constellation Brands here in the U.S. Last month, AB InBev's CEO said declining Bud Light sales represent only 1% of its global volume, but shares of Bud Light parent company have fallen by 15% amid broader S&P gains. There's a lot of hypocrisy here. They also market to race car drivers. They also market to all kinds of things. This one set them off in ways they were, they were, they said a lot of false things about what this was. It was just a can they made for this, this trans person. You've talked about Nike's Colin Kaepernick's campaign as an example of a win. Talk about

this one from a marketing point of view. Look, this was, I don't think it was getting, look this was um i don't think there's getting a this has been a disaster for bud light um in the sense that they've gone i think from 10 to 7 share and i find it tragic that as far as i can tell this lovely young woman doing fairly innocuous tiktoks the conservative uh the right who is very transphobic, which means they hate trans people. I don't use that word lightly, decides to go after a company and it was effective. And I worry that it's going to lead to more anything that's seen as, you know, any embrace of progressive values. They're going to start this bullshit. Um, and Modelo has now become number one, which by the way is a wonderful beer. But what you have here is that when Nike embraced Colin Kaepernick, they just did the math.

Two-thirds of their revenue come from outside of the U.S., and two-thirds of their revenue within the U.S. come from people under the age of 30. People under the age of 30 embrace Colin Kaepernick and recognize the U.S. has real problems with systemic racism. So those people burning their Nikes represented about 2% of their revenue. They had to go out and buy their first pair of Nikes to burn them. Bud Light is different. Bud Light has, I think, a large group of buyers who- Men. It's still white men, I think. Yeah, and I wouldn't say that they're anti-trans.

What I would say is they don't want something politicized. And that is, and I don't know what the focus groups say, but I think they just look at this and think, I think here's the bottom line. The reason why you go from 10 to 7% on a political issue represents that your foundation to begin with is not that strong. And over the course of the last one, 10, 20 years, the drinks industry has been moving away from beers back to spirits.

And so beer is resting on a fairly weak foundation. So for example, when Colin Kaepernick and the NFL sort of embraced him and viewership went down for a little bit. But if you want to watch the Green Bay Packers, you're going to watch the NFL. With Bud Light and beer, there are so many substitutes that it's pretty easy to say, you know what? I just don't want to even understand the issue or deal with it. I just heard this controversy. I'm going to try Coors Light or I'm going to try Modelo. So what this really reflects is an industry that's just very vulnerable. So when CNN

crashes because of these controversies, the controversies themselves are pneumonia. They shouldn't kill you, but there's this opportunistic infection can kill someone with a weak immunity system because cable television is in structural decline. That's a fair point. You know, Mark Cuban has talked a lot about this, although he's on the stop, ignore these people kind of things. And one of the things he's been saying lately on a lot of stuff is like, just frigging relax about it. The point he made is there's a reason almost all the top 10 market cap companies in the U.S. can be considered woke.

It's good business. He's told this to the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette in an interview. First, a dip in market cap is meaningless. You have to realize there aren't many individual owners of stocks. Almost all ownership is via funds and most trading is quantitative. It's also not like a drop because of tens of thousands of individual holders, holder stocks. So essentially, he's saying you keep investing in politics as you see fit, but without publicizing it. And if you do publicize it, that's unpopular, just wait it out, essentially, on most of the things.

And if you have a good product, it doesn't really matter. That's what he's saying. People like your product. Like Disney. Disney's the opposite example, right? There's no dip in Disney business, from what I can tell, from all of Ron DeSantis' attempts to ruin them. And I guess they could organize it.

I think the question is whether boycotts do work. Bud has been very targeted and very, I would say unfairly, because the other thing they did was the reaction, they fired the marketing person, they sort of backed off, they got more right wingy, you know what I mean? Like, so then it feels like, what's his name? The Bob Chapek, like, okay, you're not against him, you're for him. I think that was their dithering was, I think. I think they should have. I do think I love ABM. I know the people there are really good people.

They're really smart. They're fighting an uphill battle. There is a structural decline. They do a great job. The stock will come back. It's ridiculous. They blew it on this one. They should have said we embrace youth.

We embrace we embrace talented young people. We are a function of character and freedom and liberty, and people get to present themselves however they want. That was an opportunity. They missed it. Nike sees the opportunity. They missed it. Because they're not going to be forgiven. The crazies don't go, oh, they get it now. We're coming back. There's no accommodating these people they just want to be fucking angry and and and shame and scare and intimidate people right and and i thought about that i thought oh this is an opportunity for me you know i'm a narcissist right so i bought a bud light at a bar and i was going to take a picture and put it out on twitter

and i thought am i just further politicizing this and going to hurt the issue? Because I don't drink Bud Light. Yeah, we could have a better tasting beer at the center of a culture war, by the way. Well, it's not a great tasting beer. But all of a sudden, I'm like, in an effort to virtue signal, am I just adding to the problem? Because I think a lot of people who decided not to buy Bud Light are just like, I just don't want to be involved in politics, period. And anything that reeks of any politics, regardless of what side, I don't have the time. I just would rather buy a beer that is not political. Well, this was foisted on Bud Light. This was foisted on. I mean, they seized an opportunity and they took it, as they say. Right. But my point is, you know,

life's unfair. And for whatever reason, this thing got politicized. And I think a lot of people are like, I just don't want to be involved in consumer products that have any political taint whatsoever, regardless of whose fault it is. Well, you know, I do think, I don't know. I feel like Disney under Iger has done the right thing, the way they've done it. They've just stuck to their guns and that's what we're doing. And if you don't like it, go work somewhere else. But this is why Disney wins. Yeah.

Disney is singular. What, are you going to go to Magic Mountain? You're going to Knott's Berry Farm? Yeah, go for it. Yeah. I don't think they sound quite like that. That's not a very nice way to say it. Yeah, we're all you got.

What's interesting is the sort of the grievance grifter culture that's built around this stuff now with the right wing. And they did it for CRT. Trans has seemed to have stuck for them for a little bit, at least. The bud thing. There's a whole grievance grifter groups around these things, and they're making money at it. They're mad at Chick-fil-A.

Oh, my God. Like, because they, I forget what they did. Because they're no longer discriminating against homosexuals? I don't know what they did. They did something that was, they, I forget what they did. Because they're no longer discriminating against homosexuals? I don't know what they did. They did something that was, I can't remember what they did. Whatever. They didn't like it. They don't like Fox News.

Like, they're going to eat themselves. They're going to eat themselves. In Michigan, the medium election deniers are rhinos now. You know, the people who are, like, demented are not demented enough. And so there is a big fight with the GOP in Michigan. And meanwhile, the Democrats have a majority in everything the first time in 40 years. And so it's really, you sort of sit there, I'm like, how many of these angry things, even though I think some, you know, Ben Shapiro makes his business of being angry at everybody, and it works. And at some point, people don't like being mad.

Oh, I think it was Chick-fil-A, they embraced diversity, inclusion in hiring, equity, inclusion in hiring. They make a good chicken sandwich, my sons say. Didn't stop my sons from going. It's hands down the most innovative, singular, quick-service restaurant. I mean, it's a phenomena. Chick-fil-A is a phenomena. I understand it. I still don't love it.

But, you know, people can make a decision any way they want to make in terms of. You know what Chick-fil-A does? It's really legendary. Real quick is they get thousands of applications for a manager job and you have to come up with, I think, 10 or $20,000. And then they loan you a bunch of money. So you're an owner. And they have tapped into what is the key in all hospitality. And that is the owner is on-site at every Chick-fil-A.

Oh, interesting. And it's a function of ownership. Chick-fil-A is now woke people in case you're interested. Go for it. But you know what I thought of when I saw that the market share had gone from 10% to 7% based on? I thought, you know what's going to happen here, Kara? We're going to see AI, generative AI, fake videos of woke people endorsing a product produced by competitive products. Where it'll inflame the right and they'll say, don't buy this product that are fake. Produced by the competitor.

I mean, this is where the shit goes. Yeah, because they're so stupid. Let me just say, the whole Bud thing was started by probably one of the largest fatheads in the area, Matt Walsh, who is anti-trans. He's transphobic in a really disturbing way. He had advised conservatives to, quote, pick a few strategic targets and make them pay dearly. Of course, now they're going after everything because they're manic and rabid. And so they're just attacking everything. They're just attacking everything. And they're hoping this trans thing continues. It's not going to, but they're hoping it does. I think people are, I think you're right. People are concerned about their jobs. They're concerned about gas prices. They're concerned about inflation, which is down.

They're concerned about lots of things. I don't think they're concerned about, most people are not concerned about that. I think there is a small group of people who are, no question. But they live in a state of constant rage and anger against anything that's not like themselves. Rangor. Rangor. Whatever. Okay, Scott, let's pivot to a listener question. You've got, you've got, I can't believe I'm going to be a mailman. You've got mail. It comes from Harry from Stockholm, Sweden.

The email, I'll read it. Hey, Scott and Kara. Yeah, in that order. Love. I love that. Thank you. Thank you. Love the show.

Been a listener since episode one. You talk often about Twitter and lately about Linda Iaccarino. It's all fun and insightful, but sometimes it feels a bit like you're kicking someone already down. What would you do? We're nice to Linda Iaccarino, Harry, by the way. What would you do in her role? What are some strategic actions you would do as media brand strategy and comms specialist? Harry, I'm going to start. I don't think we kick her. We have given her more praise than... We give her praise. She deserves it, by the way. She's a very good ad person. We just think she's gone into an impossible situation. So what would we do? Scott, I'm going to give this to you because I'm not an expert in brand strategy advertising the way you are.

Comms, I could probably, getting Elon to shut up would be my first move, but I don't think it's possible. But if I could do that, that's what I would do. I would disappear him from the situation, ask him to stop tweeting for six months, etc., etc. That's what I would start with from a media perspective, and just trot him out and just wave, smile and wave, essentially. So that's what I would do from that perspective. Scott, what would you do? Because she's certainly capable of fixing or helping get this place better. But there were talented ad people at Twitter before this. But go ahead, Scott. I think she should do her job while wearing a mixed reality headset at all times. I'm going to adopt the language of Tim Cook here.

What would I do if I were Linda Iaccarino? I wouldn't be in this position. This is no, I mean, okay, the bold case is the following. We're talking about her, it raises her profile. She won't get blamed when she's fired and she will be fired. This is what I would do if I were Linda Iaccarino and she's probably done this. I would have an employment contract that says that if I am not fired for cause and causes, I commit a felony or list it, that I forward vest all compensation for five years and you need to put that money in escrow because you're a lying motherfucker who doesn't pay his employees. And I would cover my ass. I understand that she's doing it. I understand why she's doing. It raises, it elevates her profile. It's an incredible platform. We're all talking about her. She will not survive this. He is not a man of his word. He makes scapegoats of other people. He blames other people. He throws them under the bus, and then he refuses to pay them, thinking, just try and sue me. I have 100 lawyers. I'm just

not going to pay you. There are people at Twitter who still have not been paid. There are- Lots of them. I saw a bunch the other day. And they have to sue the guy, and so they have to try and sue the richest man in the world. So what would I do? I would be all about that employment agreement. All right, but assume he would shut up. What would you do to Twitter? I'm going to put you in. That's just... I know it's impossible, but he's hairy.

Assume I have a full head of hair. Okay, assume you have a full head of hair. What would I do? I would hope that he gets distracted with something else. I would hire back... What was his name? Yoel Roth. I would try and massively beef up the safety system. I would try and innovate around some type of product. I'd get rid of this ridiculous, I'd try and turn the blue check into something that actually means something again and move to subscription. I think that ship sailed, though.

You're probably right. I would hire a bunch of people to try and figure out how it could be some sort of input into an LLM, and they might make money there by creating sort of this ongoing pulse of information or content that informs an interesting new LLM or generative AI Twitter. She's got to experiment. She's got to do something. Quite frankly, she's got to go outside of her comfort zone because this is just a shitty place to advertise. And she's trying to spin chicken shit into chicken salad. So, you know, I think she's been given an impossible, she's working for a company that's experienced the greatest structural decline in revenues in history over a billion dollars, working for an unpredictable person who has a total lack of regard for other people that work for him. So, you know, good luck with that. And I don't think there is a right strategy here. Yeah, it's hard.

It's hard given he's there. That's the problem, Harry. He's sitting there like Mount fucking Everest of hate right in the middle of it. And so you really can't do much. You can't get around it. You can't get over it. You can't get under it. And we think Linda's very talented. Interestingly enough, bringing it back to Martha Stewart, she was like, it could be the greatest news distribution platform in the world. And it's become a snake pit. She was very early. Martha was on it in 2009. She's like, it's useless to me now, you know, as a marketer. And

she takes every, listen, this is a woman who went down to, you know, to every garden club to sell her book back in the day. She did every, this is someone who knows how to market, right? She did everything to sell and gin up interest in her and stuff like that. And she's like, I don't, it could be great. Everyone sees that. And there's all kinds of things you do then. You have all these great relationships with news media companies. You sort of program against Facebook. You program against Google.

You're the, you know, the underdog. You're very sympathetic. You throw out the haters. You throw out the white supremacists. You don't go free speech, free speech all the time. You don't. You say, look, this is going to be a great place to really learn about news. And we'll try to be as broad as possible. We don't tolerate haters. But that's not going to happen. It doesn't matter because it's owned by, you know, Darth Maul, whoever. It's just not going to happen. Whatever. I don't know. It's just not going to happen.

That's a good cultural reference. Yeah, thank you. Thank you very happen. Darth Maul. Whatever, I don't know. It's just, it ain't going to happen. That's a good cultural reference. That's a good cultural reference. Thank you, thank you very much. Darth Maul. The only win here is if he takes it out as a meme stock. That is the only win this will have. And then she'll be rich, I guess, and she should sell right away.

Yeah, I think the meme stock thing is, do you realize people have now lost more money in meme stocks than they've made? Of course they have, but someone's always on the other end winning that trade. And it would be Elon and his bunch of cronies. So that's the only plus I see. Anyway, thank you for your question. But come on our podcast at camp. Listen up. We're going to be answering lots of your listener mail in the upcoming months. So if you've got a question of your own that you'd like answered,

send it our way. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions. You did get in hot water for one of your tweets this week. If you'd like to address it, if you don't, please don't on this topic. You're talking about Democrats and trans issues. I'm happy to talk about it. Do you want to talk about it? Sure, go ahead. So I think the tweet was on the line.

Let me start by saying, first of all, you're not transphobic. I thought this was a stupid tweet, but you are not transphobic. Go ahead. Move on. Thanks, I think. People were calling you transphobic. It's not true. Oh, yeah.

That was a go-to. You're transphobic. Yeah. So, Austin Killips, a trans woman, won the Belgian waffle race on Saturday. That's a 131-mile course that runs through the Blue Ridge Mountains. And the number two rider came in four and a half minutes behind her. And what my tweet was, and I hope I don't get it wrong, because obviously Twitter's not a place for nuance. I said that unless Democrats condemn trans women athletes

competing at elite, at this elite level, it will impair our ability to advocate for transgender rights. And I think what's happening here, Cara, is that in an attempt to be empathetic, in an attempt to fight for the rights of a group that has been marginalized and has been persecuted, in my view, we have kind of lost our minds and that ideologically the snake is eating its own tail. Now, what do I mean by that? If you think about male physiology, I mean, what it comes right down to is, if you look at most of the studies to summarize them, men are physically stronger. Women are emotionally and mentally stronger. Even at a childhood age. Girls can survive divorce with much better outcomes than boys. But anyways, there's just no comparison. And

what we have decided to do when we let people who are born as males compete in these races after they have gone through puberty where you pour testosterone over a bigger, larger muscle mass and greater bone density and skeletal infrastructure, I think you end up with misogyny. And that is that the entire world of elite sports, all of the camaraderie, all of the money, all of the scholarships, all of the relevance, all of the accolades, the confidence, all of these wonderful things are about to be slowly but surely sequestered to one group, and that is people born with penises. And I believe that any transgender girl who wants to play on her volleyball team, I'd like to think that every school district would let that happen. And people will say, well, it's a zero-sum game. That means some deserving person born with a vagina doesn't get to play. And I'd be like, at that level,

it's worth it. The empathy, the humanity, it's worth it. To help that person who has probably faced a shit ton of discrimination incorporate into society, it's worth it. To help that person who has probably faced a shit ton of discrimination incorporate into society, it's worth it. When you get to the elite level and you start talking about college scholarships, this is where we're headed. Unless we have at a certain level involving money and scholarships, unless we say, look, you're either born with a vagina or you're going to play or you're going to be in another separate category. But the notion that we are going to start having people with at six foot five and the wingspan of Michael Phelps, who, by the way, still have a penis and testicles, compete in the NCAA swim meet. This is nothing but us going way too far and in a misguided attempt to say to get our bona

fetus around progressiveness are hurting women. And there needs to be some nuance here, but this is my prediction. Every major athletic organization around the world is going to justifiably and fairly move to the following. You either, wherever the gender you go through puberty or the gender you're born with, you are going to compete in that sport. The governing bodies of sports and athletic associations around the world are going to move to a more definitive regulation that says, if you are born with a penis, you need to compete in one of two categories, either men's or some new category. I don't want to say other because that sounds disparaging, but I don't believe that we're going to have any sort of competitive sports at an elite level I don't believe that we're going to have any sort of competitive sports at an elite level that allows people born with a penis and go through puberty with testosterone to compete. They will see that this is a bit of a zero-sum game.

And our efforts to be empathetic for this community have ended up backfiring us and ended up in certain situations that I believe actually sequester something wonderful. And that is elite sports from people who are born as female. And I think that there's been enough instances and enough productive conversation such that we can have compassion and recognize that young people who go through gender affirmation should absolutely be on their high school teams. We should afford them humanity, grace, and a certain amount, you know, additional generosity they've had to put up with so much shit. But when it comes to this, it's just, I think common sense is going to weigh in here. Okay, I get that. Go ahead. Can I? Anyways, I just, and immediately people

start calling you transphobic. They did. And I'm like, this isn't transphobic. You know who I'm advocating for? Not only women, but I'm advocating, I believe our ability to advocate for the LGBTQ community and the transgender community is diminished because people think, well, this hateful transgender legislation is ridiculous and stupid, but the Democrats have lost their fucking minds. All right. Let me just say, I don't think they've lost their fucking minds. And I think it's not all Democrats. I think it's a very complex situation to navigate. One person did point out to you quite correctly, these are the rules of this federation, so they're going to have to

change their rules. And the federation's wrong. Well, they- And it'll change their rules. Let's not focus on the athlete themselves because they're all playing by the rules. So let me just say, I would like to just read the woman who came in second, the woman who came in second. She said, a transgender athlete won the women's overall, which caused some controversy. Those following women's road cycling are aware of the UCI rule that is currently allowed. Rather than sharing my personal opinions about the UCI rule, I think it's most important to recognize that all athletes, no matter how they identify, should have a space to compete and race.

Additionally, underneath all helmets is a face and a person who deserves respect, dignity, and a safe space to ride bikes. In the future, I feel a separate category may be appropriate, but event promoters are also learning what is best to preserve both female cycling while also creating an inclusive space for all to ride. These things take both time and grace to resolve, and she plans to continue to support and attend events in the future. As I trust they will navigate this with respect for all riders going forward. I thought that was literally the best response. I agree with all of it. The reason I think your tweet was stupid is because these,

the people, you're playing into a right-wing trope to make people angry constantly. And so I think the context of what you were talking about it in, it's just, the context is you're, these people are trying to anger and upset people. And you did, you did, the New York Post among them constantly puts these stories as if it's the biggest problem in our world. And I think what happens is that it, it gets, this issue is, hateful people are using this to push buttons. And perhaps if you had said, I know this is being used by the right to upset, but let's have a discussion about it. I don't know. You know what I mean? Like, let's remember what the athlete who came in second was.

Let's have some kind of grace to this. This grace and discussion. Oh, 100%. And I got to be honest, Carrie. Respect dignity. Your comments that I'm inflaming people and making this worse is very hurtful. And I'm not saying you don't deserve to say that or you're not accurate, but it rattles me to think that. you're in a context where it's inflammatory and you have to be aware of the, I don't think you are inflaming them by any means. Let me just be clear. I think the right wing is this group of cynical grievance grifters, and they're trying to make people angry and divided. And when you're in

that environment, you have to be very careful about what you say and write because, and I'm not talking about like not saying what you think, because you should be able to say this. And it's a perfectly reasonable thing to say. I do think that if you're in that environment, you absolutely have to be aware of the people that are trying to play you. And because you're a nice person, you know, that's where you get played the most. Ultimately, you should engage on these issues with people who actually are being thoughtful. Anyway, we'll see. But I do see where the anger is coming from, Scott. Look at the ridiculous attacks on Dylan Mulvaney.

Ridiculous. I get it. But if you look at, actually, though, but if you look at the Twitter feed, it was a fairly productive discussion. For most people, yeah. I mean, some people immediately, you know, called me a transphobe, or other people said,

well, you know, this is, and said some hateful things. But for the most part, people said, had an interesting conversation around different levels and different what the NC2A's rules are and what would be the best rule. And the fact that Martina Navratilova has been very outspoken on this issue. But the question is,

how do you ensure as progressives and or just as empathetic Americans that you can be a really robust and effective advocate for these people? And I think that involves a certain dose of adult realities and common sense. Agreed. But I think what they're doing is trying to make it, they're burning everything down so we can't, there's no way to meet in the middle.

That's, it just- But we give them the matches when we face, when we refuse to own up to adult realities. That is 100%. You're right. But all I'm saying is the context is what matters. That's all. That is 100%. You're right. But all I'm saying is the context is what matters. That's all. That's all.

That's all. I think it's fair criticism. Okay. I'm sorry I hurt your feelings. But you hurt my feelings with spatial computing. Computing. That's what you're really more mad about. I loved it. We're out for the holiday weekend,

but Tuesday we've got a great interview with Sundar Pichai from Decoder's Nilay Patel. Then we'll be back with a vengeance because we are broadcasting live from the French Riviera. We will have hawks. Hawks killing seagulls. The hawk will kill one of us.

That is what's going to happen on our show and it's not going to be me. What happened to Carob? Taken by a hawk. But it was awesome to see. It was awesome to watch. The hawk would so go for you. It is like you would be little pieces of hawk bit or whatever it is. We're going to chitty chat. We're going to have questions from the audience. And there will be French people there.

And we will have debates and things like that. And we're very excited to do it. And we're very thrilled to do it at Con Lions, which we both enjoy. And there will be rosé. There will be rosé. That's fine. By the way, it's can. Just say it's can rosé. There will be rosé. That's fine. By the way, it's can. Just say it's can.

Don't try and be French. It's just can. It's just can. Connus. Connus. Connus Lions. It's Connus Lions. We'll be there on the main stage on Wednesday at 4.30 if you're there.

Please come see us. There you go. All right. Read us out, Scott. Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Taylor Griffin, Ernie Ingerthot, engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows and Neil Saverio. Send us your listener questions. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all

things tech and business. Cara, I will see you in France. The hawks are waiting. The rose is waiting. see you in France. The Hawks are waiting. The Rose is waiting. The dog will be in a big, big robe with sunglasses. I'll be the guy flirting with everybody and ordering $45 truffle cheese fries.

Oh, are you going to wear a Speedo? Is there a Speedo?