Pivot - Facebook changes its speech policy, Amazon moves into driverless cars, and a Friend of Pivot on how suspension of visas will affect Silicon Valley

Episode Date: June 30, 2020

Kara and Scott talk about Facebook announcing it would change its policies around hate speech on the platform after mounting pressures from Civil Rights organizations and company ad boycotts. They also discuss Amazon buying Zoox, an autonomous ride-hailing company to start competing in delivery and ride share. We are joined by Friend of Pivot Sayu Bhojwani to talk about Trump's suspension of H1-B visas and how that will affect Silicon Valley. Get tickets for our upcoming livestream event series: PivotSchooled.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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And I'm Scott Galloway. So Scott, so much happened this week and we don't have weekends off anymore. This weekend, of course, Trump tweeted a video of his supporters in Florida. What a shocker. They were in Florida? Well, there's this group of elderly people in the villages, and they were driving golf carts. But one of the people audibly yelled, white power, which the president left up for quite a long time and then took it down under probably duress, I'm guessing.

He took it down and they used the excuse that he didn't hear it, even though it's like the first thing this man says as he's driving his golf cart. So he's essentially, you know, a Klansman in a golf cart. Klant cart? Klant cart. A Klant cart. I don't know. It was weird. And then, of course, it was used as a distraction for what was going on with these Russians

paying for the Taliban for killing American soldiers, which is some intelligence that many people have reported this weekend. So someone at the Lincoln Project, which, like, knocks off these videos about things like these with incredible pace, which they did pretty quickly, said he was using racism to cover up his traitorous act. So it was kind of a fascinating weekend. It's just, it never ends. Then he went golfing with Lindsey Graham. So this is just amazing, the pace at which he's trying to violate these social media platforms, violate rules on them, is really quite amazing. What do you think is going on? Just except for pure rank craziness, what do you think is happening?

Well, actually, I was going to ask you because I think you're just more in touch with media strategies than I am. Do you really think he thought or they thought, all right, bounties on American soldiers paid by Russians that we knew about and did nothing about? So we've decided that our political gains are more important to us than the well-being and physical safety of our men in uniform. to us than the well-being and physical safety of our men in uniform, who I can call and put in harm's way in about three minutes, who put their lives on the line for me, the commander-in-chief in our country. Do you really think, and I'm asking this sincerely, do you think that they said, okay, this is so bad that we actually have to decide to be outrageously racist to keep people, to distract people? You think that's an actual strategy? I think they do it all the time.

They do it. Literally, it's like clockwork. Anytime there's a massive story that's not even an interesting story, a terrible story for them, like really, truly, they mask it with something else. I mean, it's just I wouldn't say this in normal terms, but you can't be this stupid for this long. And I think it's a calculated act. And then, of course, Mike Pence held a coronavirus briefing, and he suddenly puts on a mask. I mean, I think everything about this administration is about visuals and instant news cycle to keep people off of story, which is quite important and to get to the bottom of.

You know, I don't think it's any accident he was with the head of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Lindsey Graham. I think it's a person on the Judiciary Committee. I forget which one he's on. But any case, I think it's really calculated. Everything they do now, you can't mistake calculation for. And to own the news cycle, given the others, now the other side, especially things like the Lincoln Project and these videos that are coming out in rapid fire. These videos are fascinating. There are 10 million people who are watching one of them about the soldiers. There's a medias project or something like that. There was a veterans group. I don't know who's behind

that. And it's really fascinating. And they're all on Twitter. And then, you know, you have Sarah Cooper lobbying them off. It's really, it's a really interesting time for these messaging to go out one after the next. I don't know. We'll see. It's going to get more intense as we go along, but it's really interesting that the whole thing is sort of happening in real time. When I first when I first heard about it, I thought I spoke to my old boss, Dean Peter Henry from the Stern School. And he summarized it. And he got me thinking. It appears like everything they do reflects this. When I say they, I mean the administration. And that is I think that they have decided, OK. I mean, the administration, and that is I think that they have decided, OK, the minority becomes the majority in 2040.

There's a large contingent of our base and of white people in America that just aren't comfortable with the majority or the minority becoming the majority. And we've adopted a voter suppression strategy and we're going to become overtly explicit that white people, we're the ones that have your back in terms of pushing back and stopping the oncoming march of those brown people. And it seems to me they are being increasingly explicit and brazen and basically saying it's us versus them, you know, crazy white people, you better get out and vote for us. It just strikes me as just incredible. It's just like I would have thought this was something out of the 50s or the 60s maybe. But they're just not, they're not even, it doesn't feel as if they're even trying to hide it anymore. Yeah.

Well, I'll just say, if that's your grandpa in that cart, you better go get him in Florida. That's all I have to say. Seriously. I'm bringing my mother back from Florida and she's being like recalcitrant to go into quarantine. It's crazy. And, of course, that leads into the Fox News report that was out, that Fox News, a lot of people wrote about over the weekend. As I had written many months ago,

is people that suffer more higher levels of coronavirus watch Fox News and specifically different programs. Anyway, it's a really interesting time. I think not just online, but this onslaught of instant media stuff really does have an impact on people in a way. There's already underlying problems with racism and sexism, et cetera, but it really does sort of amp the volume to 103. Speaking of which, we're going to go on to big stories. Well, hold on first.

I have a little surprise for you. All right. You know, I really don't like to read your work, but your New York Times opinion piece this week was less bad than usual. So I just want to read. I just want to read about that. Oh, you secretly admire me. Speaking about Alex Kern's suicide and Robin Hood's role in it, the tragedy got a lot of attention, especially after Forbes reported that Mr. Kern's left a note behind asking,

how was a 20-year-old with no income able to get assigned almost a million dollars of leverage? How, indeed, embedded in the query is a much bigger one that has been plaguing the tech industry and its innovative entrepreneurs for far too long. What is the reason for their persistent tendency to ignore the potentially dangerous impact of their creations? These days, the companies can seem not just careless, but also predatory. Is it to make more money? Is it because growth trumps safety? Is it rank sloppiness, lack of foresight, a design flaw that could have, and more to the point,

should have been anticipated, a laser focus on innovation, all of the above. Perhaps the reason hardly matters since as Robert Louis Stevenson wrote, everybody sooner or later sits down at a banquet of consequences. And that is the ashen meal now in front of Robin Hood's co-founders

and co-chief executives, Vlad Tenev and Bai Zhu Ba. Ashen meal. I don't even know what that means. It sounds good though, doesn't it? I know. I know what it means. But I don't know what it means.

I know what it means, but I don't. And the next time I see you, I'm going to hug and kiss you and you're going to not like it, but you're going to like it. No, I'm not going to like it. An ashen meal. I know. An ashen meal you, and you're going to not like it, but you're going to like it. No, I'm not going to like it. There's no way. An ashen meal.

I know. An ashen meal. Where did you get that? Pulitzers all around. Oh, my God. It's raining Pulitzers. It's raining Pulitzers. I thank you for reading so much.

An ashen meal. Thank you. It works perfectly with the bag of coffee. Oh, you are good. You are good, my friend. Do you like the quote? Stay thirsty. I know.

I know. That was very good. An ashen meal. Thank you. I did that for thirsty. I know. I know. That was very good. An ashen meal. I did that for you. An ashen meal. You cried. Because you made me. You cried.

And you made me not cry. But you made me think about it. I'm crying every 48 hours. They were. That was an interesting thing to report. And I talked to his cousin-in-law. And I also talked to the company, to Vlad Tenev, which was good. It was a good situation. We'll see what they do. But my whole point, it leads into our next question.

You know what they've done so far? What? Well, they've given a quarter of a million dollars and they've agreed to hire an options specialist. I know, that's not enough. So they're taking this very seriously. Although I did get calls from their board of directors who said that they appreciated it, some of them. Yeah, they appreciate it and they're all busted up about it.

They're really upset. I know, but you know what? The only way we can do is write things like Ash and Meal and see where it goes. Ash and Meal. In any case. And not forget, just Robin Hood, FYI, I say we just mention Robin Hood every week until they do something. I think that's what we can do. We can do that. That sounds good to me. But let's get to big stories.

So this is on point. After escalating pressure from companies and Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway, Facebook says it will start, mostly Kara Swisher, will start labeling political speech that violates their rules on the platform. The move came late last week as the company Unilever said it would be halting ads on Facebook for at least the rest of the year because of hate speech. In a live stream aired last Friday, Zuckerberg said he was, quote, optimistic that we can make progress on public health and racial justice while maintaining our democratic traditions around free expression and voting. our democratic traditions around free expression and voting. He then denied that the move change in policy has anything to do with an ad boycotter revenue, which is a lie, but Facebook shares fell about 8%. I mean, and then there was Coca-Cola

who was going to remove social media advertising, did not join the boycott, but, you know, sort of joined the boycott. And there's other companies considering it. Starbucks, same thing. Social media, not this specific thing, which is this Stop the Hate boycott that's been going on. It's been organized by a bunch of different people like Color of Change and NAACP and the ADL. And also Sleeping Giants has been a big part of it and Common Sense Media.

There's a whole bunch of coalition, and they're taking the whole thing global. So, Scott, what you know, it looks like there's some movement here. Maybe not. Maybe they're just, you know, placating people. But it is having some effect. And I think it's I think it's a it's a good sign, at least for now. Well, I was doing some research this morning and Nick Clegg, Facebook's vice president of global affairs and communications, conceded Sunday on CNN that people want to put pressure on Facebook to do more. That's why we made those additional announcements on Friday. That's why we'll continue to redouble our efforts because, you know, we have zero tolerance approach to hate speech.

Yeah, they have zero tolerance approach to hate speech. Yeah, they have zero tolerance. That's like saying I have zero tolerance for Zacapa and Chipotle. I run on rum and burrito balls. That is just so ridiculous. And you know what, Kara? I hate to say it. I think this in the long run is probably a bad thing because they are going to do things that Twitter has already done. They said, okay, we're going to label political speech. They're not saying they're going to start the stop taking political ads. So they're going to move to not even where Twitter has moved. They'll declare victory. Their advertisers will all pat themselves on the back. The ones that were accounted for.

I think it's like 0.01% of their revenue. And we'll be under the impression that Facebook is less of a menace. Oh, we won't, because guess why? Because we're serving them an ashen meal. We're going to serve them many ashen meals until they get the point. This is ridiculous. I mean, I agree with you. I think, first of all, look, it's better than nothing.

And there's significant advertisers. And I do think the small advertisers, I talked to a relatively small advertiser and they said, you know, I have to spend more on that. I'm going to spend more on that service. I hate them. Again, another one. It's not small, but it's not big. And so I think as long as it delivers for them, they'll continue to get those. It's the only game in town, it really is. It's like Google and Search and things like that.

And so I do think that that is in their favor. But at the same time, the tarnish continues. And I think we have to continue to put pressure on them to do the right thing. I mean, of course, they'll do the smallest amount they want and wrap themselves in the First Amendment like they tend to do. But what I think is going to happen is that they're going to be pressured by employees. They're going to be pressured from the government next. And so it will continue. It will be sort of a drumbeat. I don't think this is going away for them by any stretch. But these advertisers, you know, Unilever is a really interesting company. You know, they have been, YouTube's been boycotted by major brands.

I don't know if you saw over the weekend, the two, two Jenna Marbles and Sean, Sean Asshole, I forget his, Dawson, who was, you know, he did Blackface. He was masturbating around Jada Pinkett Smith and Will Smith's daughter, like making a joke about it, which I wouldn't get them mad. And he did get them mad. They were on Twitter sort of saying, we're going to probably, you aren't going to do well going forward.

It was a nice way of saying that. So he apologized, and I don't know if he's going to continue on Twitter, but Jenna Marble said, who has done a bunch of stuff like that. People are trying really hard to dial back some of the stuff they've done. And I think you're going to get a backlash, the backlash of first, you can't say what you want. And I was like, no, you can't, like actually in some case, or you suffer for consequences but um but it's going to be an interesting time to see what happens because these these platforms have allowed people like this to to do these kind of things for a very long time and it's had an impact and now you know

ashen meals everywhere i'd say but remember in the terminator um i. It's my favorite movie. But the second one with, I forget his name. The guy, the guy is some sort of Edward. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah. The guy has some sort of the actual Terminator has some sort of liquid. Oh, yeah. Substance that if he chops off an arm, it just sort of reanimates and reforms very elegantly. The metal. The tensile base or the tensile strength, the diversity, it's the, Facebook's advertising base is arguably one of the most robust business ecosystems in the world. And the tools are so powerful

and so many people are on it that even if they lose, if they were to lose their 50 biggest advertisers, as long as they just throw some kind of, I don't call them illusory, but sort of symbolic gestures at the problem, that arm is going to regrow really, really fast. The opportunity to swoop in and target those people for other brands and small business who really depend on Facebook,

it'll just regrow that arm really, really quickly. So I don't think this gets us very far. Well, you have to put them then in a very hot vat of metal, as would happen with that guy. There you go. First they froze him and destroyed him, and then they somehow were in a furnace-based steel mill for some reason, and the metal reformed itself.

But, yeah, the most recent one was the same thing, was this continual reformation. And they came back as a woman. And then this last time it came back as another man, the last movie. But you're right. But the question is, where is the damage? Like, do you see any— So the Terminator franchise is in transition? Is that what you're saying? No, but I'm saying this is the idea is that there's nothing to be done about these things. You think there is nothing? Oh, no, no, no, no. Come on. No, I absolutely

think it's going to be done. I think we need to break them up and I think we need to file criminal charges against senior execs. I'm saying let's do something that's effective. Oh, really? I don't know about criminal charges. I do think, you know, civil charges and regulatory things are pointed. Until a senior executive at one of these firms that has levied extraordinary damage, has denied harm to our youth, has delayed and obfuscated against all sorts of damage to the democracy, until one of them, and I think this is going to happen, is arrested. And I think that's going to happen or detained, but it's going to happen on foreign soil. I don't think any of them give a good goddamn. I think the markets have taught them to lay an obfuscate, hire super charming, high EQ, intelligent people like Nick Clegg. He strikes me as a very impressive person. It's very pleasant. And the market will react and respond and just keep on going. I mean, you know, it's easy to make a sociopath when you keep rewarding them for sociopathic behavior.

So there's stuff to be done here. I don't think it's, unfortunately, I salute Unilever. It was a leadership position. But you know what? Unilever spends $11 million on Facebook a year. They do $16 billion a quarter. And it was like, oh, wow, this is a big deal. Not really.

Well, okay. All right. I'm going to go with the glass half full thing. This is the beginning of it. And I think if you continue to keep the pressure, it's not a good look. It's that essentially you're a cigarette company. And continually people saying this is, I was going to text the Starbucks CEO and say,

why can't you just call them out by name? It's sort of the people that say bad things, things that badly have been said and nobody calls out Trump by name, for example. I think calling out by name is really important. I do think going forward we're going to see, I don't know, I just have a feeling. Because I put up something that said, let's not give kudos to someone who did the thing they should have done in the first, for doing the right thing. There's no kudos here for Facebook.

And I got thousands of retweets. And I never, like lots. And it was really interesting. So I don't pay attention to everything on Twitter, but I do notice what people react to. And when I said it that way. No, I think you pay attention to everything on Twitter. Well, in any case, no, I don't pay attention to everything on Twitter, but I do notice what people react to. And when I said it that way, people— No, I think you pay attention to everything on Twitter. Well, in any case, no, I don't. No, but it was the reaction.

But I want to bring some nuance into the argument. All right, okay. You know who gets really hurt by this? What? You know who registers the desired impact of these very, what I'll call, honorable, thoughtful, hard-in-the-right-place brands trying to do the right thing? I mean, this was a leadership move by Unilever it was a leadership move it was bold it's usually i mean i i love unilever i love png i've worked with both of them the people who run the companies are these really thoughtful kind of civic-minded people so congratulations to unilever i mean that

but you know who's going to register the impact of their actions? Who? Twitter. Yeah. Because if you'll notice, every brand and every company that's decided we're going to remove our advertising from hate platforms is lumping Twitter into it. Even though Twitter was the one to ban all political advertising and the moves that Facebook has said they're going to make in response to this isn't even as much as Twitter has done. And by the way, Twitter can't absorb these body blows. Twitter is not the terminator. And therefore, subscriptions, like you say. Twitter, this is the thing. The real damage to the business, the real jet punch is going to be registered by Twitter and potentially Snap, who are being lumped into

this entire anti... They should not be lumped. They should not be lumped. Well, I mean, I think the way people look at Twitter, unfortunately, is all of the hate with none of the scale. And Twitter, if Twitter doesn't figure out a way to disarticulate themselves from other social media platforms, as Tim Cook did from other big tech companies, they're going to get all of the boycotts. And it's not a monopoly. It's not part of the duopoly. So the company that really got hurt by Unilever in this campaign is Twitter. It's not Facebook. All right. I agree with you. I incredibly agree with you. We're going to take a quick break and come back to talk about Amazon buying a self-driving car startup that actually I know very well and a friend of Pivot to discuss H-1B visas. Fox Creative. This is advertiser content from Zelle.

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Okay, Scott, we're back. Amazon is at it again. They're buying the autonomous ride-hailing company Zoox as part of a push to move into driverless taxis. Although I will tell you, I know a lot about this company. The sale was rumored to be around $1.2 billion, which is just a scooch above what they've raised. So they were obviously, Amazon got a bargain here. It would put Amazon in competition with companies like Uber and Lyft, give Amazon yet another revenue stream. Google and Tesla are both experimenting

with driverless car technology. Amazon, I was waiting to get into this space. This is a really interesting company and it's an interesting move because I have seen these cars and they aren't out in the wild yet, the new cars that they're doing, which are these sort of Lego-like cars that you put together and fix in this way. They feel like delivery vehicles. They actually look like coaches.

I wasn't able to take pictures of them or anything else, but I did ride in one and it was a really interesting experience. Anyway, they're really kind of nifty cars and it's a nifty technology. Zooks has been funded by some really interesting entrepreneurs. At the same time, the CEO was a person of color, a woman of color, who had worked at a bunch of different companies. I think Intel was where she was a pretty significant executive there.

It's a really interesting company, and it's a really interesting purchase because it's pretty cool the stuff they're doing at Zoox. So what do you think of this? Why do you think they did this? I was going to ask you that because I wonder if, as it put, people immediately lump it in with Uber and Tesla, but my sense is that the person in the back seat is going to be paper towels and espresso pods. My sense is it's more about delivery and fulfillment than it is about autonomous taxis?

Well, it's interesting. These cars, as you look at them, they go backwards and forwards, which is interesting. That's what cars do, Carol. No, no, no. But they drive. They don't have to turn around. They go back. They go forward.

No, no. But they don't have to turn around. There's no. They run on your cat. They do emissions into the air. Boom! America's auto industry. They are very much like delivery vehicles.

And they get the ladies if you get the right wheels. This is not a ladies' car. Anyway, it's a square coach-like kind of thing. And the doors open automatically. You can see it being full of stuff. And then when something breaks down, you can pull the one unit off of the car and fix it. It's really an interesting car. It literally looks like a coach. I don't know what else to say.

But why do you think Amazon purchased it? I think delivery. I think delivery. I do. I think it's a delivery move. I think you could get into taxis at the same time. What they have is these individual areas that people can get in without talking to other people.

So it would be a group. It's a lot of carpooling kind of stuff. It's a really interesting company. The people behind it have worked at Google and other places on these things. And I think one of the big investors was from Australia, Atlassian. I just thought it was a really smart move. Atlassian, one of the most important companies you never hear about. You know why also I think they acquired this company?

Because Jeff Bezos hates Elon Musk. Oh, yeah. Elon Musk tweeted about it. It's really interesting. They both see them as like, OK, I get to go into space. I'm God. And then they've been going back and forth about their different space efforts. And what do you know?

Jeff Bezos ordered the first hundred thousand vehicles from Nikola, the Tesla competitor. Is it called Nikola? What's it called? That wasn't by accident. These guys hate each other. So I'm wondering if Bezos senses that Tesla might be getting somewhere and autonomous driving is like,

I know, I think I'll show up and shit an op-on. Yeah, and this is a very promising company too in this space. So it's a really, it is an interesting time. And I agree with you. The Musk thing was,

he called Bezos a copycat. And I was like, too bad. That's exactly what he is. So what? Like, it was funny. It was a very- That's the best business strategy. Second mouse gets the cheese in today's economy. Yeah, exactly. And one of the things that was interesting is I wonder if he's going to like buy a tunneling company. I was like, where's his tunneling? That'd be great. I would love that. I've started a, oh my gosh, that would be awesome. I know. I know. I know.

You know what's really fascinating about these guys? I'm going to – I always – Other than their money, nothing. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. They don't like each other individually. And they're very aware of each other. I remember Mark Zuckerberg.

A bunch of powerful males in the same room who don't get along. What a shocker. What a shocker. They're very concerned. When I was – last time I saw Mark Zuckerberg, he was asking about Elon Musk. Like, is he crazy kind of thing? And it was really, it was, he was trying to be polite about

it, but that's essentially what he was asking me. I think it was during that whole SEC thing and the 420, and it was, they are, same thing with Bill Gates and Steve Jobs. I gotta tell you, you know, they were, well, more Bill Gates than Steve Jobs because he could care less about anybody. Like he was he was the top dog, essentially.

Yeah, but here's the thing. If they start a boy band with Evan Spiegel, it's so obvious that Evan will be the lead. And I don't think either of them are going to recover from that. I think both of them are just so freaked out that they're supposed to be the sullen, interesting ones to get a heroin addict in the boy band. It is the big tech startup. As usual with you. And I think we're going to be the sullen, interesting ones that get a heroin addict in the boy band. It is the big tech startup. We're posting some books, as usual, with you. And I think we're going to move on. Let's move on to a friend, although Evan is certainly dreamy.

I like our friend. I can see her. She's smiling at my jokes. I like her already. All right. Listen to me. Listen to me. Your hair picture, we're going to discuss that later, that you put on the Internet, which was disturbing.

You're a little hot for daddy. You're a little hot for daddy. Be no no not even slightly what is less than slightly ash drink a lemonade the dog i still couldn't get sex back then can you imagine what it's like now i was handsome and i couldn't get any action back then cara okay all right if you say so all right listen we're moving on to a serious topic. I broke the Internet with my picture of hair. I broke the Internet. You didn't. I had more tweets about, I don't know. Your ashen meal? No, the Nazi people in golf carts. In any case.

That's hard to beat. Nazi cart is hard to beat. Will you let me move on? We're moving on to a friend. She's waiting for us. I'm caffeinated. We're moving on to a Frenchie who's waiting for us. I'm caffeinated. As we discussed briefly on last week's show, Trump has suspended HB1 visas to prevent highly skilled workers from working in the U.S. or certainly change things around. And a lot of Silicon Valley companies depend on the workforce. There's been sort of quiet rumbling. But to get a broader scope of this issue, which is critically important when

immigration in this country, what it means for Silicon Valley workforce and others, we have Sayu Bojani on the line. Sayu, are you there? I am. All right. How are you doing? Sorry to have to endure this. Sorry to have to endure this, but she's the founder and president of New American Leaders, a coalition based in New York City that works across the country to build the power of immigrants in the U.S. So let's talk a little bit about this specifically, and then I'd love a sort of broader look of where we are. You know, every 27 minutes, Stephen Miller seems to pop up somewhere doing something awful. But talk to me a little bit about this. And then Scott and

I have a lot of questions about what impact this has across the country. Sure. I mean, look, the thing is, like you said, every 27 minutes, there's some panic attack that's directed at immigrants and that kind of fans the flame of his base. So I connect H-1B decision to asylum seekers, to DACA recipients. It's all in the last couple of weeks, all a way of deflecting blame from the administration's poor handling of the coronavirus and the economy more broadly, right? So, I mean, immediately, I think for people who have H-1B visas, it's created an amount, a great deal of uncertainty about their future. I do think that has an immediate impact on productivity. I think it has obviously an immediate impact on how companies

are thinking about their workforce. But I also want to just say more broadly that any immigration decision and announcement, regardless of whether it affects you as an individual immigrant, it creates kind of both uncertainty and fear. And so this is very much part of his strategy and has been for the years that he's been in office. So when you're talking about this, why now? Why to do why this right now? Now, I know what was interesting is when I was tweeting about it, and I don't think Twitter is the reaction of everything, but it set off an incredible debate. I mean, hundreds and hundreds of people arguing with each other after I did one tweet about whether this is a good program, whether reform is needed here, whether the way it's done sort of keeps workers, you know, tethered to one company, that there's not enough going on. And then there was a whole group talking

about why don't companies invest in training in this country? How do you look at the whole, does it have any traction, the idea of reforming this or changing it in any way? Yeah, I mean, first of all, I think it's a both and. I think it's keeping our borders and doors open so that we can continue to attract. I mean, it starts with international students as well. Like I had an F1 visa as an international student. And the first visa I got after that was an H-1B. And it wasn't in the tech sector, it was in publishing. That was 35 years ago. At the time, your H-1B was tied to your employer. That's something that I believe has changed. But at the end of the day, the thing that we don't understand is how uncertain you always feel in this country if you are constantly

made to feel other. And I mentioned this psychological impact because who we are as people shows up in who we are in our jobs. And so to sort of take immigration as just, this is the policy without looking at the bigger picture of our society, I think is very problematic. And we've done that over and over. So just to your question, one last point I'll make is that, yes, I absolutely think it has to be looked at more holistically. I think we have the need for H-1B visas has always exceeded the actual numbers. We always run out of H-1B visas very quickly. And yes, ostensibly, you can change employers right now, but that's not something that you can do very easily, you know. And I think people just don't understand how it's like the line, you know, people always talk about them get in line.

There is no line. I mean, and so nothing about immigration in this country is simple. And we really design it to be complicated, bureaucratic, and psychologically disturbing, frankly. Sayu, it feels as if we could have, so we're supposed to, at NYU in the fall, we're supposed to have 28% of our students are international students. And I wonder if this mix of xenophobia, H-1B visas being revisited, and quite frankly, COVID-19 means that we will have, you know, zero percent of our students international. Could we, and they typically, they come here, they fall in love with America, they stay, they go on to be incredibly productive citizens, including CEOs of some of the most impressive tech companies. Are we in risk of having kind

of a lost generation of innovation and productivity that starts with just this dramatic, it's as if we're not planting seeds around innovation. It's as if we decided we're just not going to plant any crops. And has the administration done a calculated strategy here where they would rather have this racist whistle call, but the people are going to pay for this? Is our economy in 5, 10, 20 years? Have you guys done any analysis around what happens when you have a decline in immigration? Well, so yes, yes, yes, except for we haven't done analysis on overall impact on certain sectors. But we do know that around the country, there are so many towns that have been revitalized by the presence of immigrants, right? And those are not necessarily the tech workers.

But look, I mean, people fall in love with America before they even get here, which is why they come. And I have that personal story. And then I'm that person who stayed and I become a CEO of a tech company. But I became a startup leader in the nonprofit industry. I've started two nonprofits. Those have created jobs. Those have helped to build social fabric.

And so I do think that we are sending messages that are going to hurt the number of people who come here. I want to emphasize that America continues to be a beacon. There is something very exciting to people about coming here. And I also want to emphasize that the journey has always been hard. I mean, yes, there's no question that this president and his policies are deeply, deeply damaging. But we've always had difficulty being in this country. And so I don't want to, we are unified in our enemy right now. But I think one of the things that folks in your industry can do, and really everywhere, is to understand those connections, right?

Understand, just like in the Black Lives Matter movement, black lives have always been at risk, not just in the last year or 10 years or five years. And so how do we understand what it feels like for someone like me? Every single time I left the country, I had to go to the international student office and get papers signed and then go through a questioning process when I returned to this country. And still, I stayed. still high state. So the kind of person who continues to commit semester after semester, year after year to staying in this country and contributing to this country is the kind of person we should be throwing our doors open to. Just a follow-up question to that. I wonder if we need to reframe the way we position immigration. I think that as Americans, we're pretty narcissistic. It seems like we frame immigration, the notion that it's the right thing to do. It's a nice thing to do. We have a history of welcoming immigrants. Well, don't we need to reframe it as our economy runs on several things, including attracting the best

and brightest. This selfishly is a smart thing to do. And I agree with you, we're still a beacon. But it feels to me like Canada and Australia are starting to out-beacon us. At some point, the best and brightest who want to leave other nations that don't offer the same opportunity start going to other democracies with strong economies, including Canada and Australia. start going to other democracies with strong economies, including Canada and Australia, don't we need to reframe it as this is just going to be really distinct to the moral argument, distinct of our history, distinct of our legacy. It's just economically stupid. Have you seen a, is there a relative uptick in immigration to places like Canada and Australia?

You know, I'm not familiar with the specific data about Canada and Australia. I will say that I think you're right in thinking that we need to frame it more broadly, right? Like anything, there's no such thing as a single issue around immigration. And there are two ways that we can frame it more broadly. One is that the advocates for immigration have always sort of separated along several lines, right? So there's the H-1B advocates. There's those who are advocating for the undocumented folks who are here. And then there's those who have the family reunification argument. And often those make, they don't even make strange, they make strange bedfellows, but they never come together. And so I think we need a more holistic, and this is, I think, what Kara was referring to earlier.

Like, we need a more holistic conversation about immigration itself. And then I think it needs to be more holistic around the things that you're talking about, Scott, around what does it mean for the kind of economy and society we're going to have because the innovation comes out not just in tech but in in in art um and um you know i like to make a plug for the non-profit industry and all the other industries where having agriculture hospitality yeah exactly yeah all of that education education absolutely education so do you you expect companies to then out, because they do not have training programs in place. They've been using the H-1B visa program quite a bit in Silicon Valley, at least, and other places.

But in this sort of remote moment, at the beginning, I remember a lot of tech companies saying to me, we've got to keep our people in their place globally, like in their offices where they are. And they didn't stop hiring. It was just they would keep people in place where they were, where they got stuck or something else. And they were all scrambling at the very beginning when they, for example, they did when Trump did the Muslim ban. Does it just change permanently? Just like the way

work from home is probably going to change our workforce permanently? I mean, this is a concern, right? The concern is that if we aren't able to attract people here, then the, I mean, it's going to backfire on the administration and frankly, on many of our leaders who don't want to see jobs go overseas, right? But if I don't have a choice as a tech company to hire someone here, then my options are going to be to hire folks overseas. And that's not really going to do anything for the social fabric of our country, right? There's the economic impact, but there's a what kind of town and community do you want to live in? And is this a town and community that cares for each other and that participates in our democracy? And this is why I just keep saying like it's economy. And yes,

we can get folks to do the work wherever they are. But then what does that mean for the kind of company culture and community culture that we want to create? I think, is it's not a place that I think is, to our point earlier, it's not going to attract, you know, young people. It's not going to attract the kind of diverse energy that we do see in towns. So I have a last question. So what do you imagine that's going to happen here? Is this just going to be Trump loses and then things change? Or what do you, and then again, people don't want to get near the immigration issue in any cogent way. It doesn't matter, right? I mean, I think our democratic presidents have really been, there is a reason we are here. And it's because we didn't address immigration reform. So I think

that what we all need to do is to invest much more in our democratic institutions and to pay really close attention to who is making policy, who those people look like, what their lived experience is, what their understanding single issue for Trump without seeing what he represented for people who look like me. Much in that way, I think we have to shift to not just seeing what is our bottom line and what is the immigration policy, but what is the kind of country that folks are going to be? So if Biden wins, I think there's still a long journey to get to a kind of immigration policy that welcomes all of us and that understands the connection between the economy and democracy and culture. term investments and change in viewpoint we need to make. But say tomorrow, say you're the son of immigrants who every day wakes up and thinks, I'm so blessed largely because America embraced this warm hand to his parents who were immigrants. What could I do tomorrow to ensure that, you know, the bridge or the ladder behind me isn't taken away, that it remains open? What can someone do tomorrow to recognize or acknowledge how blessed they are that America used to welcome immigrants? I mean, I, well, you know, being someone who is sort of in that position, I don't know if I would say that we were completely blessed because I think it is a two-way street.

So I just would suggest that we reframe that as, you know, the opportunities that we've been given here are opportunities that many others can benefit from. I think getting involved in our civic processes is really important. I think a lot of immigrants do come here thinking mostly about their economic survival and that expanding our engagement beyond our economic survival to democracy is really important. I think that the other thing that we can do is be more honest about our experience, frankly, that it's not just a, you know, the road is paved with gold dust. It's a struggle. And so those two things, I think, being honest about our experience and getting involved in democracy are two really important contributions that I think we can make. All right.

This was super helpful. I was interjecting was gold dust was a long, long time ago, I think, in terms of, if ever, with immigrants. In any case, this is Sayu Bojani. Thank you so much. We really appreciate it. She is the founder and president of New American Leaders. Check it out, a coalition based in New York City that works across the country to build the power of immigrants in the U.S. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails.

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Get started at HubSpot.com slash marketers. Okay, Scott, we're back. Wins and fails. So many, well, wins. What wins do you have this week? Let me ask you about something. The gap in Kanye West struck a 10-year apparel deal. Scott, you had predicted the gap

would go under at a time of COVID. Is this a smart move for them to stay relevant? I mean, I tried it out on my kids, and they laughed. They laughed. They thought it was not. They like Kanye West, too. They listen to him. But it did not attract them to the gap, I can tell you that.

Well, stock was up 18% on the move. I know. So what do you think? Look, I think it's interesting. Your kids are a much better arbiter of whether it's going to work or not, but I thought it was genius. And he's reached out to this interesting African designer to help with the collection. I think it's a kind of bold, interesting move that Gap needs to be making. And they also needed to divert attention from the fact that they're

being sued by their biggest landlord for nonpayment of rent. If the gap were to go under and it doesn't look like it's going to now, that would really send a chill to the entire retail ecosystem because it's just such an iconic, it'd be like if Starbucks went away. It's such an iconic retail. By the way, Starbucks is cutting back, yeah, these retail locations. It's an interesting move. I do think I thought more of it. And it was interesting to my kids' reaction because they were wearing, one of my kids was wearing the Kanye Yeezy shoes or whatever.

I think the question is. Adidas is hot. Yeah, right, exactly. So I was sort of like, would you buy those clothes? And they were like, no. Like, I think it was the Gap more than Kanye West than anything else. So I think that was the issue. I don't think they've been in a Gap since they were kids when we dressed them in Gap clothes then. And so it just wasn't, they don't

even think of retail this way. They think of it entirely around cool brands, not around retailers for sure. But when you're talking about the gap, what's interesting, you're really talking about Old Navy. Old Navy has been the attention there. They were even thinking about spinning Old Navy at one point. Yeah. But it's their ground zero for the disruption from fast fashion,

from COVID, real estate based strategy. The gap has really been in structural decline for probably a good decade, decade and a half. Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm trying to think. The only stores they actually go into would be Nike and Adidas, which is interesting.

Really? Yeah. And the ones that are like Tyler, the creator, had a store. Supreme or something. Yes. Supreme still continues to be. I thought it was going to go away, but my son wears a lot of shoes. Anyway, it's just interesting how they purchase.

All right. What is your wins and fails? I was just going to ask because, but my son wears a lot of shoes. Anyway, it's just interesting how they purchase. All right, what is your wins and fails? I was just going to ask because I was curious about it. Sure. So my win is I stumbled on this wonderful movie by accident called Jojo Rabbit. Oh, yeah. And Sam Rockwell is that his name? Yes. And I'll watch anything that's about World War II, and I was not expecting this film.

It's just a visual feast. The design, the dialogue. It's a satire of World War II. Yeah, Hitler. He plays Hitler, right? But it's also, you know what it really is? It's a very moving film. And what I took away from it, it's about the relationship between a mother who's raising her son alone.

It just happens to be in world war ii and there's it's such a moving film and there's this wonderful quote at the end that i i i wrote down and i've been thinking about a lot and i think it's i think it's um i think it's relevant in the current time we are and it's the quote is the following it's the last it's the last scene in the movie they put up this quote. Let everything happen to you. Beauty and terror. Just keep going. No feeling is final.

And it's Rainer Maria Rilke. And I just love that. I just love that. And this movie, anyways, my win is Jojo Rabbit. Jojo, what? What a really moving piece of art. So I don't know. Have you seen it, Kara?

I have not. I don't like funny Nazi you seen it, Kara? I have not. I don't like funny Nazi movies, except for Mel Brooks, who, by the way, turned 94 this week, where that was the producers. Obviously, there was a musical. Yeah, but this isn't using Nazis as humor. It's a story about...

I watch the stuff you recommend because I get a lot out of it and you have great taste, but watch this. It's really, really good. I'm going to do it. I was watching Normal People last night in Excel. What did you think? Oh my God. Could you, I like literally was like a lesbian, like they were like lesbians.

I was like, stop like processing and not saying what you mean and stuff. I'm not speaking for all lesbians. Lesbians are repressed? No, no. Oh my God. It was just just it was like a lot going i did it on your recommendation i think i do like it i watch they're adorable but i'm like can you like why are you breaking up why are you not speaking to each other like it was social anxiety he's no i know he's much more in touch with their feelings sort of but nobody's saying anything. It's sort of like, I don't know. I feel as if.

They're 17 or they're 18. Yeah, but they're older now. They can call. I'm like, come on, people. I'm at the point where they were fine and then they weren't. I was like, what? They need our help. I mean, I'm definitely like, the processing going on with these two is exhausting.

It's just sex and processing. And so I don't know what to say. I like it. I'm watching the whole thing. I'm not yet. I just recently finished Mrs. America, which I love, because I love Cate Blanchett. Everyone in it was fantastic. It was a character.

In any case. Phyllis Schlafly, is that right? Schlafly, yeah. Yeah, it's great. It's great. It's really great. And great actresses all over the place. It's like Emmys all around as far as I'm concerned. Um, but, uh, but I, I gotta say it was, uh, it was interesting to watch. All

right. What's your fail? What is your fail? Well, just going back, my fail is more advice and I'm a, I'm a shareholder at Twitter, but if Twitter doesn't take serious action across one of two dimensions, either starching their hat white and announcing they're going to get rid of the millions of bots, be more disciplined about those warning labels, kicking people off from the far left and the far right,

if they don't separate, if they don't get the lunar lander off this rocket that is blowing up, they're going to immolate along there i mean it's immolate they are they're going to self-immolate or whatever you want to call it but they are basically the little rabbit next to the bear the bear can survive the buckshot the little rabbit is going to get blown to pieces if twitter twitter is the big loser here if they're not careful out of this this advertiser boycott because they cannot afford

to lose advertisers. So if they don't immediately, I mean, I would agree, just articulate themselves from Facebook in terms of real actions, they're going to be caught in this down draft and they cannot survive it. Yeah. Okay. Wow. I mean, I have talked about that. I'm actually going to write a column on this this week saying there's nothing. This guy continues to have full control over this company and it's a drop in the bucket. They are the waited out people of all time. I understand what you mean. Who's this guy? Zuckerberg. I'm saying. But everybody else, you're right. Snapchat, which doesn't deserve it, certainly doesn't deserve this.

I think YouTube will be affected, but they have plenty of, you know, speaking of plenty of ability to wait things out. Although I do think there's a commitment on that particular staff. I interviewed the guy who left and started this new search service. And I have to say the, this guy.

Neva? Neva? Yes, Neva. Is he going to let us invest? No, I didn't ask. So we can be totally conflicted? I didn't ask, actually. But I am getting into the beta, so I'll let you know.

I'll see if you can get into the beta. You want to get in the beta? That's it. I'm sick of you serving me ashen meals. I'm sick of you serving me ashen meals over here. Would you like to get into the beta like I help you with everything else? Would you like to get into the beta? I want to invest. I'm not going to do that for you. beta like I help you with everything else? Would you like to get into the beta? I want to invest.

I'm not going to do that for you. I'm not helping you with that. In any case, he was very articulate about his disgust of what had been happening there. And he also was like, you can't fix this problem. So you have to start from scratch. It was really interesting. He's like, certain things, if you put the screws too much on speech or just slow down content, you hurt people inadvertently that shouldn't be hurt. And if you put too much, yeah.

He goes, I don't know if it's fixable, so I'm starting from scratch where I don't have to make those decisions. That's what he said. And we talked about poor people sort of being left out, and he feels as if if it gets big enough, the price comes down. He says, everything's subscription. You pay for almost everything good that you get in life. Anyway, it's a really interesting, it was a really interesting discussion. Do you have a fail, Kara?

A fail? Oh, just, you know, no. Not everything, no. I think you're right. I think that this will not matter to Facebook. And I think we have to keep this, speaking of keeping the screws to people, I think we have to continue to keep this drumbeat of other big, powerful companies

have been brought to heel in certain ways. And I hate to use that term around Facebook, but this has got to continue and advertisers can't just do this sort of, like you talk about, virtue signaling and then move on. This matters a great deal. And I think, unfortunately, what will happen is if Biden wins, the pressure will be even

more off them because everyone will want to be like, okay, everybody calm down. You know what I mean? And so that's my worry, even though Biden has indicated. You see Pence on all the weekend morning shows this weekend. What, was he wearing a mask suddenly? Oh, my gosh. I don't. I don't.

I don't envy him. I forget the name of that Iraqi guy, the general. He's like, we are beating them back at the airport. Yes. It's like. Oh, Iraqi. He would say, he would start off. What does he mean, Iraqi Sam?

He's so good. He doesn't listen to the question. He just talks about the first rule of politics. Answer the question you want to answer. Don't answer the question. He starts off, they'd say, they'd say, Mr. Vice President, we have not flattened the curve. We've extended the curve, record number of infections.

And he would say, well, the success we've had is due to the great innovation. He'd just broken. He's given these V-Day speeches. He's just the worst. And the people would sit there. I forget his name from CBS. He's so good. Anyways, I can't remember the name.

Anyways, and he just, it's as if, and it's like, who's he talking about? South Korea? Yeah, I think. He's talking about the US. Was it George Stephanopoulos? No, no no he's on abc um you know what i think reporters are like that's enough like that's enough kind of thing like this guy was going after him and this guy is very measured he's on um uh he's on the uh cbs one the morning show for the cbs with margaret brennan um he's

gangster he's really good he had he did he was very he was about as aggressive as you can be while recognizing and respecting the office of the vice president. But I mean, it's just gotten comical when he starts to speak. It's like, wait, are you talking about New Zealand or America? What are you talking about? The whole thing. He's he's a ridiculous, you know, he's going to go down. He's going to go down. He's another one. The issue is, someone was actually raising something really interesting to me, is that given the numbers and how Trump's really getting beaten like a drum right now. Listen, there's a lot of days until the election.

Lots of stuff could happen. And what they're really trying to do is, back in 2016, it was the same thing. I was like, it was not. It was not. Everyone's seeming to hate you. And he even said it himself on that show, that ridiculous tongue bath that Sean Hannity gave him was the idea that, like, you may, people don't seem to love me the way they like him. You know what I mean? Like, when he's your president, this is what's going to happen. And so what I was sort of seeing a vision of is that he would quit.

You know, and he's not going to lose. He does not want to lose in a landslide. So he'd quit before it and leave Pence holding the bag, essentially. And leave him right there, which I thought was fascinating. And then come back again, sort of Teddy Roosevelt style, I guess. I think if he did that, there's a decent chance Pence would win. I think people like Pence more. No, they do not.

I do not think they do. I do not think they do. I think they think he's creepy. He's a creepy dude. I don't think so at all. Anyway, he's creepy. I do not think they do. I do not think they do. I think they think he's creepy. He's a creepy dude. I don't think so at all. That's a little creepy. Anyway, he's creepy. Oh, come on.

No, I didn't want to go. We're not going to have a discussion about this because he really is creepy, especially on gay issues. Gay people know this guy. What, electroshock therapy or not? No, I'm not. Let me just say, mother and father are creepy. They're a creepy pair and more dangerous in many ways. What's interesting is that he would quit and then he might sort of start to, I think if Biden wins,

he's going to spend a lot of his time getting incoming from President Trump for a long, long time. And that's going to be a challenge unless you just completely ignore and suck all the oxygen. But there will be, he will make, he will try to call attention to himself in massive ways forever, essentially. And that would be, that'll be, that'll be interesting. You know, he will not let us heal. Let's just say he will not allow us to move along and heal from his administration. So that would be, that makes, when I was sort of watching that Sean Hannity interview, I was thinking we are in for continued abuse for a long time to come, no matter what happens. So that was my thought. What do you got on tap for the week, Kara? Oh, nothing. I got to, I like, I have to start, I'm going to tape my last Recode Decode today with Jim Bankoff. He's my, he's one of my final guests and then we're going to have a best of.

Bankoff. I Jim Bankoff. He's one of my final guests, and then we're going to have a best of. I know, he's going to be more than time. I'm going to put the screws to him, too. And then I'm going to work. I start on my podcast for the New York Times on Wednesday. What's it called again? I love Scott Galloway. Go on!

You know that word. Give me a name. I think you should call it Dis not. You know that word. Give me a name. Give me a name. I'm having a meeting. I think you should call it discussions. Discussions? What? Discussions. Conversations. Discussions.

Conversations. That's what you have. No. Oh, I know. I know. What? One word. Oh, my God.

This is so good. Okay. Go ahead. Okay. From the New York Times. Ashen. Oh, yes. Boom.

Jammer, lamma, ding and dong. I will do. I will have Barbaro do it right I read that word and I'm like oh my god I don't even know what she's saying but I know you know what I was saying I'm just telling you ashen meal Robin Hood

you're eating an ashen meal you just were swishered because that was like boom I had one more thing they took out that I'm mad I had one more yeah editors I let them I'm mad. I had one more boom in there. Yeah, editors. I let them do it because I wanted Ashton to stay. But there was one when I said it has a bigger query, comma, his last.

I had something like that in there that was really like, boom, ding. Yeah, you try to do that in pieces, Scott. You try to do that. I know you try to. You just don't boom all the time. But I try to throw it in there. Yeah, you might have a New York Times opinion, Scott. You try to do that. I know you try to. You just don't boom all the time, but I try to like throw it in. Yeah, you might have a New York Times opinion, Kyle. I have a blog.

I have a blog. What are you doing? I'm not doing anything. My kids are with my ex or my son's with his girlfriend. Amanda's still up in Vermont, so her parents can see the baby. So I am on my own here rearranging things because I'm anal retentive. I'm going glamping. I get a horse in Montana starting this afternoon. These are the things you do for kids. I'm not into horses. I cannot believe you go to Montana. You do the rich people's Montana,

right? You don't do actual. Oh, no, it's a tent and a kerosene lantern. And I hunt my own game with a bow and arrow. I don't see that happening. I don't see, I don't see you in my, I see you in rich Montana, which many zillionaires go to Montana, correct? There's like a whole like, this is only my second time, but when I was there, it was a big sky. I know it's beautiful. It's quite a beautiful place. It's a beautiful place too. Not that that is the reason why I'm going nowhere. I'm going to work. I'm working. I'm going to work while you... I'm going to tape a secret pivot for us. In any case, I know we can't leave each other

because we are going to be away from each other. We do not have... Just so you know, we don't have another show on Friday. I can't quit you, Kara. I can't quit you. That's Montana, isn't it? Is that Wyoming? Where was that movie set? The Dakotas? Brokeback Mountain? Yeah. Montana, right? I don't know. That was

pretty hot. Out there. That was hot. That was hot. You kind of look like him when you had hair, but not really. Which one? Neither of them, really. They're beautiful men. Broke the internet. Did not. Maureen Dowd likes my picture.

Oh, no, really? My former future, whatever you call it. The next ex-Mrs. Dalloway. You know what we're bringing Maureen Dowd likes my picture. Oh, no. Really? My former future, whatever you call it. This next ex-Mrs. Galloway. You know what? We're bringing Maureen on. We're putting her on pivot. Do you want me to get her for next week? I love Maureen. She's great. She's great. I tried to see if she would have a socially adjusted drink with me, but she's not

having it. She said she's been in her house the whole time. She's not moving. She's a gangster. I'm going to bring her. Okay. You know what? She's coming on the show and you two can declare that you love each other. I'm going to sign us out. Did I bring you, Stussy? Okay, sign us out. No more of your false promises.

No more radical promises. Today's show was produced by Rebecca Sinanis. Our executive producer is Erica Anderson. Our sound engineer is Fernandoernando finete special thanks to drew burrows if you like what you heard please subscribe please download wherever you listen to podcasts let everything happen to you beauty and terror just keep going No feeling is final. The all-new reimagined Nissan Kicks is the city-sized crossover vehicle that's been completely revamped for urban adventure.

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