Pivot - Facebook fails a civil rights audit, college campuses will be "mini-Wuhans", and can the Trump admin ban TikTok?

Episode Date: July 10, 2020

Kara and Scott talk about an audit released about Facebook's lack of civil rights practices, the groups that have pushed them on moderating their platform, and Sheryl Sandberg's first public response. They also discuss the US' possible ban on TikTok, the China based social media app. In Listener Mail, we get a question about why colleges are not lowering tuition even though many will only be offering online courses in the fall. In predictions, Scott thinks Trumps visa ban on foreign students not enrolled in in-person schools will have economic repercussions. Get tickets for our upcoming livestream event series: PivotSchooled.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I'm Kara Swisher. And I'm Scott Galloway. Oh, my God. Now I have been getting texts and tweets from people telling me, now I have to say you're a genius because your idea that Twitter was maybe looking to subscription service, and now apparently they're looking at it. The stock jumped. A new job listing is looking for engineers to work on a subscription platform called Griffin, whatever. And Wall Street loves this. So I just literally don't know how I'm going to live with you.

I think it's really going to be bad. I'm sorry, Kara. What was that? Could you repeat that? I'm sorry. I don't get your meaning. What are you talking about? I feel that I'm going to have to tell you you're smart today,

and it's a real disappointment for me. I'm a German shepherd. Tell me how you do this. I'm not a purebreeder. How are purebreed being a German shepherd? I have this feeling you have inside information you're paying for. Now, I don't know why I feel this, but tell me how you came up with this besides your psychic. I'll just say one thing, Carol. Yeah.

One of my mentors or someone I look up to is a woman named Cindy Gallop. Yeah. I just think she's this kind of smart, courageous, thoughtful woman. And she has this saying I love, and that is the best way to predict the future is to make it. Oh, God, stop it. Stop it. No, seriously. Why did you go with this one?

We'll see if it happens, by the way. Like, let's see. It'll be interesting to do. And I think you feel like it's their only way out, essentially. This is obvious. This is a platform that has tremendous loyalty, has a good product. But the business model of ad-supported media means it's like being in the business of scale at retail. It means there's really only room for one or two players to pursue that business model, meaning everybody else has to go niche.

Yeah. And it's just obvious when you look at Twitter. And I think this is true of Pinterest and Snap, too. Oh, subscription. meaning everybody else has to go niche. Yeah. And it's just obvious when you look at Twitter. And I think this is true of Pinterest and Snap, too. Oh, subscription. An ad-supported model just doesn't, they just don't have the scale for an ad-supported model. And you have with Twitter, there's so much value, surplus value being recognized by a small number of people.

If you have 17 million tweets, you're not going to pay $100 a month. You'll pay $1,000 a month. Yep, yep, yep, yep. And so this just seemed, you know, it's almost as if the only thing that could be more obvious than this would be predicting, say that, I don't know, a CEO had two jobs as a CEO of two companies, and you predicted that over time that he would have to step down. That's going to happen this year too.

Oh, you keep saying that. You keep being wrong about that one. I'm not keeping wrong. That one you're just going to keep saying until you're right, correct? My emotions. I understand. I've lost control of my emotions. Listen, Spock, when you're right, you'll be like, I was so right. Oh, you know I'll take credit for that.

Yeah, like that one I'm not going to give you. When he retires at the age of 78. You'll see, I see. I told you he was leaving. I'm not going to give you that one. That one I'm not going to give you at that time because it's been too long. But if you do it near a round when he's doing it, I certainly will. Speaking of CEOs, by the way, let me give you another one.

PPP loan data. You and I and Stephanie Ruhl all talked about the fraud that's going to go in it. The names are just incredible. A lot of Trump-related people. A lot of people who are not deserving of our taxpayers' money, one would imagine. And so this is, you know, as you noted, this is going to be an ongoing, you know, fraud investigation by reporters for years to come, I think, and how it was abused and used, possible books and things like that. Well, you know, you know what, who's going to be, so first off, there's going to be a term you're going to hear a lot more on, and that's pandemic profiteers. Oh.

So. Not just the mask people or the people who hoard stuff. Well, this will be the new ground zero because in World War II, where citizens were asked to invest and sacrifice in this battle against a foe, as is everything we do, we were using it as an excuse to transfer money from the poor to the rich. we do. We're using it as an excuse to transfer money from the poor to the rich. And what you're going to find out here is that HQ for pandemic profiteering, Sand Hill Road. You're going to see, and I don't want to say the names of individual venture capitalists because there was a great article in the Wall Street Journal yesterday about it. And a lot of those guys are disputing that the Wall Street Journal got accurate information. But you have venture

capital firms that are raising billions of dollars of funds. Yeah, you wrote about it. And they're cashing these checks at small companies. And all this has done is said, this isn't a cupcake bakery with someone who needed to hold on to their four employees and is fine now. Most of these companies you're going to find were growing. Sure, they hit a speed bump. Most of these companies you're going to find were growing. Sure, they hit a speed bump.

But all this did was preserve the dilution of the shareholders and the founders or put more cash on the balance sheet. And it's just people, a lot of people are going to eat a cold lunch when the word comes out that they have taken this money. Yep, I agree. I agree. I agree. And I think this was one of the issues. A lot of people felt they should or they shouldn't and this and that, but these people can raise money anytime. Anytime. It's like, it's all over

the place. And of course, you know, I can see why people would do it, especially if they had no shame. Like, why not? It's like belly up to the money bar. But it really is. It just sort of, the way that this has been conducted is so open to fraud. They sort of like opened the bank doors and said, don't take money.

Like, don't take it wrongly. Take what you need, but don't take it wrongly. And so that to me is just, again, it's another indictment of the Trump administration and their inability to run anything, including this coronavirus. They've now had a second bite at this coronavirus apple and they seem to, you know, they just can't do it. They can't fix the situation even when they have chance after chance after chance. It's really quite depressing. Yeah. And you are going to find, I think you will find that a lot of the money got

to the right place. But I think of that as the hamburger being thrown at the guard dogs while you rob the bank. Yeah. They're going to wallpaper it over with these emotional stories. It's going to be something like 10% of the applicants got 80 or 90% of the funds. Yeah. And we're going to wallpaper it over with these emotional stories. It's going to be something like 10% of the applicants got 80% or 90% of the funds. And we're going to find that somewhere between a third and two-thirds of those really didn't need it. And oh, by the way, all these people who talk such a big game about capitalism and the government should never bail anyone out are going to talk about how effective this program was. Right. And it's just, it is pandemic profiteering. Pandemic profiteering.

We're going to see a ton of companies get shamed and decide to send the money back. But it's, it's, this is, anyways, I think this is, the only thing that passes for bipartisan support these days is reckless spending. Reckless spending. And also, you know, just speaking of recklessness, there was a story today in the New York Times about Robin Hood and how I sent you, I tweeted at you, that you, that we, and we talked about this, is that the predatory nature of this company. And I think they were, people on the service were 88 times more likely to do dangerous things than Schwab or other services, which are more responsible. You know, and I, you know. Specifically around options, right?

Options, yeah, exactly. And it was really, it was another indictment. Everyone shrugs their shoulders, but the one fact in it that I thought was in the moment was when Ashton Kutcher, who's an investor, who I know and I like personally, but was talking about how it's like gambling, and then he had to go sort of walk his quote back,

saying, I didn't mean to say it was like gambling, but they were joking about the idea. But to joke, this is something where people who work for these companies actually do know the predilection to be gambling. They know what they're doing. And also, they know that people have a predilection for thinking it, but like gambling, and they continue to do what they're doing. They better clean themselves up at Robinhood. They really need to clean themselves up, but that makes them less valuable. They care. Let's be fair. They've committed to hiring an option specialist. Let's be young men, mentally ill young men, including direct evidence that someone has killed themselves after seeing the app and they've decided to hire an option specialist.

The actual execution of options contracts and share purchases is almost zero cost. And sometimes even the brokerages will pay for flow. Yeah, that's right. And that is the flow of the orders. And the story explained it well. I thought they explained it really well. Yeah, and to your credit, do you know who gets paid the most for flow? Who?

Robinhood. Robinhood, yes. Why? Because these brokers love those contracts. Why? Because the people buying those contracts, in their view, are the most likely to buy stupid contracts that are overpriced and lose money. So the entire market appears to know that this is a bunch of kids driving a Ferrari with a tourist permit. It feels like the housing crisis. It feels the same thing. It feels like the housing crisis.

Like, here, let's give you a house you can't afford and let you have a mortgage. It just feels that same cynicism. It pervades. Speaking of cynicism, let's get to big stories. An independent audit of Facebook that Facebook itself engaged to have done found that decisions at the company have led to, quote, setbacks for civil rights. I know this comes as a shock to you, Scott.

The report was conducted over two years and asserts the company isn't prepared to address discrimination on the platform that may affect the upcoming election. Meanwhile, civil rights leaders from the NAACP, the Anti-Defamation League, and other groups, Color of Change, we're going to have Rashad on Pivot on Monday, and other groups met with Mark Zuckerberg and Sheryl Sandberg to talk to the company leadership about fixing the way the platform moderates hate speech. The meeting did not go so well. Those groups brought 10 demands, which they have brought before, as Rashad has noted today on Stephanie Rule. We missed you today, Scott. And after a meeting was done, they said Facebook wasn't willing to act on almost any of them. And they have done this. They have been on this ride before. Facebook will hire a C-suite civil rights position, which will be one of the 10 demands. They don't have a timeline yet when

the position will be filled. We're going to have Rashad on Friend of Pivot in the next week's show. And Sheryl Sandberg has suddenly popped up out of nowhere with her first comment since the advertising boycott started against the company, although I understand she's been very active behind the scenes going to them. She wrote a post on Facebook that said, we have to, what do you think, Scott, get better at finding and removing hateful content. So, Scott, thoughts?

I'm not worried because Ms. Sandberg is committed to doing better around the issue. So I will sleep well tonight. Yeah. And she has said we need to do better and that they're not taking action here because of the advertising boycott. No, no, no, that's not how they roll. They're doing this, and this is an exact quote, because, Kara, because it's the right thing to do. So Ms. Sandberg, we need to do better, and Facebook doing something because it's the right thing to do. Check and check.

I mean, do these people believe this shit when they say it? I don't know. At this point, do they literally believe it when they say it themselves? I told Rashad to stop going to the meetings. I was like, just send, like, just don't. Like, it's just they're going to tell you. He's like, we said this the last meeting and they said the same thing. And I'm like, welcome to my world. It's the same.

I typed the same column over and over like 10 10 columns i counted them saying this going back two years and way before that at recode you know what i mean it's just as yeah what do we do nuts nuts what do you think have you heard anything or what's been the response or i've heard you know they're they're victims they're victims like they are on clubhouse or whatever the fuck that is. And they're victims. And we're being too hard on them. And their stock is not being affected. And, you know, Mark made that comment, which I think is pretty egregious to his employees.

He said, usually I tend to think that someone goes out there and threatens to do something that actually kind of puts you in a box. In some ways, it's even harder to do what they want because now it looks like you're capitulating. It's fine to look like you're capitulating, Mark. Oh, God. I just want to like literally. Now I can't do it because it looks like I'm a wimp. Well, okay. And then he said that advertisers will come back, which they probably will.

The stock is doing well. Of course, their new oversight board won't be ready until late fall. I've written about that. Oh, my God. Talk about that has got to be like that has got to be the lamest flex of what I have been. And it's all Europeans and these very impressive, I don't know, people. People you would like at a dinner party. I have been appointed to the Facebook oversight board. It's like, well, okay,

good luck with that. That's, there's, you know, it is really impressive. If you wanted to find a group of some of the most impressive people in the world with some of the best reputations in the world, one decent cohort of the most impressive people in the world is the people who have left Facebook's board early. Oh, yeah. Susan Desmond Hellman, Ken Chenal, Erskine Valls. all Erskine-Balls. If you were to say, how do I build a group of the highest integrity, most thoughtful people, it would be people who have said, I need to get off this board early. I cannot be here. I am not comfortable with what's going on. I do not want to work with this individual. Don't you think they should speak out? They like to do the silence thing. Sort of like letting a bad someone just graduate when they can't read. It's sort of like letting like a bad someone, you know, just graduate when they can't read.

It's just so ridiculous. What I want to do is we should lure them all into like a room for something. Lure, we're lurers. And then we lock the door and we say, you're saying what happened. Yeah, I think that's called kidnapping. I know, but I'm just, I would like them just to like say,

just say. Just do what we want. But here's the thing, the reason. Say Ken, say Reed, say Susan, say Erskine. They have a different approach to life than, just say. Just do what we want. But here's the thing. Say Ken, say Reed, say Susan, say Erskine. They have a different approach to life than you or me. They've decided that they never want to be rude or disrespectful to people. They have an entirely different approach. One of the reasons they're so likable and have such incredible reputations is they don't do shit like that. You know what we need? We need them to go Lincoln Project on this. That's what all I'm saying. Go Lincoln. Go Lincoln Project. They are killing it.

By the way, I'm scared when the next election, when they're back on the other side, they're so good at these ads. You know, these are these ex, well, they're still Republicans, but their ads are fantastic. Yeah, they do a good job. And so I would like them to go Lincoln Project, if you don't mind. You know, I'd like them to, like, say what happened and, you know, write a book. Like, I don't know, do a Mattis. I don't whatever. Like, oh, geez. There you go. You've had it.

It's like I'm writing another column. It's like I was like my column starts this week. I'd like to write about lemonade or maybe Scott's idea about Twitter. But but Facebook, once again, has, you know, weighed in. What is going to look, we keep predicting, but do you imagine once this election ends and if Biden wins, that's when they have to change, presumably, because that's when regulators are going to come calling with briefcases, et cetera. Correct or not? Yeah, I think you're right. I think it's fairly pedestrian. When people ask me what's going to happen around antitrust or the breakup regulation. I'm like, well, tell me what happens in November.

It just, it really does come down to that. There'll be, I think there will be some movement, even if Trump is reelected, there'll be some movement because enough people have kind of zeroed in on this and are sick of the lies. Yeah. But it's going to go fast. I think Twitter's going to double, I've heard Twitter's going to double down on what they're doing. I think they're going to be a contrast.

I think they're going to be in big contrast to Facebook. And what's really interesting, and I think they should, I think it's a good look for them. It's an opportunity. And it's also the right thing to do. And so it'll be interesting to see how far they go down the line. Because we had Rashad just now and Stephanie Rules, you know how Facebook is doing this free speech thing. It's not free speech. It's hate speech.

I decided I found a perfect example. Then we're going to get to the next story. But it's as if you said, yes, the meat is tainted, but everyone should be able to have all meats. All meats should be available to people. Well, we need to give voice to ground chuck. Ground chuck that's tainted that will probably kill you. Like whatever it is, whatever happened to it, even if it was put in here by the Russians to kill us, we should let that meat speak. No, no, no. And even, look, even if it's, you should have the right to discover via gastrointestinal disease that it's rotten meat. You deserve that right. You do. It's great. That's really, thanks, Mark. Appreciate it. Anyway, we are horrified in any

case. And let me just, before we finish this, you saw the Harper's letter. We're going to talk about it later, I think. Oh, yeah. I think you and I are going to disagree on that. We are. Come on. Just read the criticisms. They're 100% right. There have been several excellent criticisms. Again, another, you know who did one?

Mike Masnick, who was on our show. There's a difference between free speech and freedom from consequence of your speech. Thank you. All right. You should read the Mike Masnick piece. I'm going to quote from it in a second. Yeah, I want to be honest, though. If they had called me and asked me to sign it, I would have signed it. I think there's a dangerous gestalt in our society. No, there isn't.

It is not our biggest. Oh, there really is. There really is. We're going to get into it later. We're going to. No, it's not. Left wing and rich platformed people not being able to say whatever they want is not our biggest problem. I am so sorry to tell you, give you the news. Anyway, Scott, let's go on a quick break. We'll come back to talk about the possible ban on TikTok in the United States. And listener, mail. Fox Creative. This is advertiser content from Zelle.

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But it essentially said he's not immune, which has been his argument. We'll get to that in a minute if it will have any implications on us. But it's an interesting story. But bad news for quarantine Gen Z and wine moms. The United States is weighing a ban of TikTok while they're over here dealing with the taxes. The Chinese social media app this week, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo went on Fox News to tell Laura Ingraham, which that's a sentence, that the U.S. is very seriously looking at the ban of the app and warned that people should only download the app if you want your private information in the hands

of the Chinese Communist Party. President Trump confirmed that his administration was considering the ban and reiterated that China should be held accountable for COVID-19. In response, a TikTok spokesperson said, quote, the company is led by an American CEO with hundreds of employees and key leaders across safety, security, product, and public policy here in the U.S. Now TikTok is bulking up its lobbying team as the U.S. government intensifies its scrutiny of the platform. Meanwhile, last week, India, TikTok's largest market, banned the app. I don't think he can ban the app. So let's talk about this. What do you think? We thought that it was going to be spun off anyway and become a U.S. company, the U.S. arm at least. So obviously

this is a political move by, you know, that fatuous idiot Mike Pompeo. But what – that's what I call him at home. What do you think about this? What do you think is going to happen? Because this is a super popular app and a very good app. Well, so I do think it comes down to whether or not there's evidence there are security threats. Yeah. And whether that the information is being used and covert intelligence

for, for, because the relationship between Chinese companies and, and, and the ruling party there is pretty tight. And I just don't, that the problem is you can't trust when, when the secretary of state used to come out and say, this is a national security risk, they would show up with receipts and data and you would believe them. And now you just don't know. And it might be a security threat. These actions might be warranted, or it might be just more xenophobic decisions that hurt our economy and give us no leg to stand on when we call for these markets to buy our products. So what's next? The Chinese played a long game. They're going to do something probably against what my guess would be against Apple.

And they're going to say, look, if you want to play this game, we can play this game. But at this point, I'm reserving judgment because I don't know what the evidence is that they're in fact a national security threat. What have you found? I found that it's a complex issue. Just like you were saying, this is a nuanced and complex issue. But what the Trump administration, as usual, is doing is throwing a hammer to make music, like throwing a hammer at a piano to make music. That's poetic. It is.

It's like ashen. Ashen. It's ashen and ashen. You'll see the ashen now. Throwing a hammer at a piano to make music. You know what? Sometimes you can be sort of right, and they're not sort of right here. They're not.

They don't know what they're – they're just doing it in order to call attention away from their own crappy things. And they're not focusing in on what Facebook's doing either, by the way. You know, maybe the Facebook impact, they're not the same as China, obviously, and this is a concern. We should be concerned about all apps from

a country like China, obviously. But the fact of the matter is there's ways to figure out if that is safe. If we do move these servers to this country, if it is a separate company, we do have an, they did hire an American, a top Disney executive, a CEO. What's interesting was happening in India. And I think India is doing it again today around Reddit and some others, is the, is they banned the app. Now, India has much more control over the ability. I don't think Trump has any control here that, that works. And, you know, it could be part that he's mad at the TikTok

people from ruining his Tulsa rally, which is not even proven or whatever. It's just and then he can blame them for. If you notice, you put coronavirus in here. I think it would be I'd love to talk to Kevin Mayer about their strategy here, but they certainly are going to slap back. And it is an opportunity for Instagram and Snapchat to move into the space. But I got to tell you, I was on TikTok the other day. I actually use a burner phone to use it. Let me just say, it's fantastic. Like the algorithmic, it really is good. You get drawn in there.

And you have a burner phone. I have a burner phone. That's so like, you're a saucy little mince at your burner phone. I'll call you on my burner phone sometime. But what I think is really interesting about it is that it's really, away from the Chinese issue, it's so much better than all the others. It is this algorithmic way that they bring you things you like. That's one.

Two, it is so creative. People are so creative on that. Every day there's another. There was one of two couples jumping into shoes over the course of their relationship that was just wonderful. There was a kid who was flipping, becoming different action stars. It's so good. The people are really being very creative on it. And so that's sort of amazing.

And, of course, there's things that are, there's now a rise in the bad parts. And so the question is, how well will they, you know, control, say, anti-vax stuff, et cetera, et cetera, where it goes? Because you won't see it because it won't be, it won't come up to you. So it could, there could be a whole dirty part of TikTok, whether it's anti-vax or racism that they need to pay attention to. Because, again, you won't see it necessarily. It's off in other areas. So it's a really complex issue. But this is typical of the Trump administration to wade in here like a ham-handed, politically motivated, corrupt people that they are.

Well, TikTok and Huawei have become sort of the poster charts for who we go after. And at least in the cybersecurity community, supposedly the threat that each represents to national security, they say at this point is hypothetical. But at the same time, China figured out a way to kick out Facebook and Google when they wouldn't, when they wouldn't, you know, when behavior even for Facebook and Google, they couldn't stomach it. Yeah, agreed. And so, you know, I think you can argue both and Google, they couldn't stomach it. Yeah, agreed. So, you know, I think you can argue both sides. You can really argue both sides of this. It's nuanced, but it's just like the executive order around 230.

It's ridiculous. It's like this is not the way to do it, and it misses the opportunity to really actually do something and do nuanced, important. You know, listen, I give speeches about China, and every time someone from China stands up and says I'm xenophobic, because I'm like, listen, this country is really winning on lots of... And you're like, I have a burner phone. I have a burner phone. Call me on my burner phone. No, but I point out, because I had a really interesting talk with an admiral who was talking about their cyber capabilities in the military. And it's really frightening. At the same time, what the hell? I mean, I just don't

want these people. I don't want them running the coronavirus thing. I don't want them running this. This is too important. And they'll screw it up in some way and then get a payoff from China because who knows, you know, where they're putting their money and stuff like that. Anyway, you know, again, we'll find out now that the tax returns are out. Yay. They're not going to get out to you and I, but they're going to a grand jury. In any case, let's take a listener question, shall we?

Let's do it. You've got mail. Hi, Karen, Scott. Thanks for taking my question. This is Alina from New York. My husband and I love listening to your podcast. I have a brother who's planning to go on at NYU as an undergrad in the fall,

and I'm actually an alum of NYU myself. So we're in the middle of a pandemic and clearly the traditional college experience has gone out the window. You can probably imagine my shock when I read that NYU is actually raising tuition by nearly 3% starting in the fall. What's going on? Even with rising costs associated with COVID, I find it hard to believe that there is no potential savings that could translate to lower tuition costs at colleges. Thanks, and I'd love your thoughts. So I think that question's for you, Cara. That question's for you. I have this question

for you. What the hell with the 3% rise? Secondly, they haven't said anything. Like, nobody knows. And now Harvard announced they would not be inviting students back to campus, I think, or they're doing it remotely. And some campuses are having... All remote. Harvard's going all remote. Yeah. But some people are having students on campus, but doing it remotely to protect the professors,

which is kind of interesting. There's all kinds of ways. There's like juniors and freshmen show up and then seniors and sophomores. I don't know how they decide that. Yep. I think it should be juniors and freshmen and sophomores, whatever. In any case, there's all kinds of things. What is going on there at NYU?

I am also, thank you so much for noting this. What do you think is going to happen? This is your bailiwick. This is your wheelhouse. So, and to be clear, I don't speak for NYU, and I'm not privy to these decisions, although I did have a call with this incredibly impressive guy, Chancellor Block, who's the chancellor of the university that receives the most applications in the world. Do you know what university that is, Kara?

What? Tell me. UCLA. Okay. Okay, so first off, to answer her direct question, what are we doing regarding raising the prices 3%? Simple. We're continuing to prey on the hopes and dreams of middle-class households. Yeah. We're continuing to prey on the hopes and dreams of middle-class households where a conflation of self-aggrandizement and arrogance has led us to believe that our lack of productivity, our lack of accountability, and an inability to recognize basic concepts like ROI and cost management has resulted in more debt than credit card debt.

And it's absolutely, at this point, it is morally wrong. So we continue to do that, but that's nothing different. Let's talk about the pandemic. The switch part of the bait and switch is now full underway. And that is now, first universities were making these bold stride and statements saying, we look forward to welcoming you back. It's our national obligation, said the Brown president, which is Latin for parents, send in your deposits now. Because if you don't send in your deposits that we have expected and received exactly the same amount, plus 4% every year for the last 40 years, we'll be in financial crisis because our costs are fixed and we can't variable them down. So it was a lot of consensual

hallucination between the finance departments, the presidents and parents, that fall was actually going to happen. Well, spoiler alert, and I hate to tell you this, and I've been saying it for two months, there will be no in-person classes. We are not going to stick a bunch of average age 55 tenured professors in rooms with windows that don't open with people from the four corners of the earth such that we could infect them and send them back. The super spreaders in the U.S. right now, theoretically, are far-right Republican governors and university presidents who are even entertaining the notion that we're going to bring people to areas of concentration, young people who are super spreaders, who have proven to be super spreaders, and then expect that they will maintain these ridiculous protocols that we're doing all these task forces on the moment they leave campus.

I agree. I agree. So we're moving to the switch phase. We'll say, well, we didn't realize what was going on, so we're going to continue to have some classes in person, and they call them studios and labs. You know, if you're majoring in the tuba, or you're in pottery or something, or you're in chemistry lab. The reality is that will not happen either.

So all of this has been a big wrap to get parents to send in their money. It's like, you know, it does. Because they make a lot of business. I know. It opens the possibilities for students who couldn't afford room and board. Now, would you send your student – now, would NYU do something? You don't have any knowledge about it. Like, have the students be there and then take remote classes? Is there any point to that?

That's where this is headed, is that they're trying to say, all right, you can still have the campus college experience, and you, young man and family or young woman and family, have to make a decision around the risks you're willing to take. And maybe we reconfigure the dorms. Maybe we have the freshman class show up for fall and the sophomore class show up for the spring semester. But you try and distance off campus, and you can do your remote learning not in the class and have sort of the college experience and still take your classes and maybe still go to the lawn, which has been taped off for distancing. But here's the problem, Kara, and I hate to say this out loud. There are so many scenarios that could just go really wrong. What happens in small college towns if their

healthcare systems get overwhelmed? Yeah. Also, I was thinking that, and then there's no cafeteria ability or things like that or whatever. I mean, New York is different. You go to college to not distance. Yes, exactly. That's why you go to college. You go to college to not distance. And the notion that we aren't setting ourselves up for these little mini Wuhan's all over the most charming little cities in America. It's just, no one wants to be honest about the fact that just as sports has taken a hit, just as movie theaters have taken a hit, you are going to have to close these campuses down. Enough already. We all want our 19-year-olds out of our basement, all the 19s in the world feel cheated. But here's the bottom line.

Campuses cannot be the new super spreaders. I like that. Campuses cannot be the new super spreaders. I feel like that's a T-shirt we should have. decrease the delta between offline and online learning through an amalgam of small and big tech, as we have spent on these ridiculous task forces trying to come up with protocols to give ourselves the illusion of security and safety, we would have already massively improved the online experience and we would have come out of this process in fighting shape. But you know what's happening? What? This is going to have so many implications. So my class is usually 160 kids, but since it's online

and since the kids are angry because they're spending $7,000 to take 12 Zoom classes, they've said, Scott, and I'm bragging right now, can you expand your enrollment? So great. So I'm teaching 400 kids. So you're not only going to have the 20-80 rule where 20% of the professors are educating 80%, you're going to have the 5-90 rule at most campuses. most campuses. And then all of a sudden, the administration and alumni and donors are going to go, why do we have 190 faculty when 11 of you are educating 80% of the students? So, this is what is happening here, nothing but delay and obfuscation and arm folding from people who realize the currency of power and lack of accountability, specifically tenured professors and bloated administrators, are getting in the way of progress here. I agree with you. Although,

I really would like my son to play beer pong. Frankly, I should have made him apply to the Sorbonne. But he'll be back. Yes, he'll be back. He'll be abusing alcohol, getting his heart broken in no time. He has a nice girlfriend. Listen to me. I should have made him go to the Sorbonne.

That's it. But we couldn't get to France either. The Sorbonne. I'd have to sneak him into France. You must call me on your burner phone about Huawei. I should have made him. One of my nephews went to St. Andrews. I should have made him. One of my nephews went to, like, St. Andrews. I should have made him do that.

But here we are. But Harvard and MIT are suing the Trump administration for banning foreign students from taking online courses this fall. This visa thing. What if they have to move to another school if they can't live there? It's so strange. What do you make of that? This is problematic. So this is my prediction. And this is the most...

All right. All right. We're going to get to predictions later, but give me your thoughts. Well, this is the most underreported story in America right now. Because if you think about this, people say, well, it's a xenophobic... First off, just how ridiculous is it? Okay, you can have a student visa, but if you get some of it online, if you use email, that's fine. But if that email starts including online courses and we have an opportunity to send you home in some sort of xenophobic trope, okay, all online classes, you're now an illegal agent. I mean, this decision makes absolutely no sense. We know why they're doing this, Cara. Stephen Miller, his wife is sick.

Well, in addition, the kind of free opportunity to be racist with purchase is just a gift here. It's just sort of an added bonus for them, a chance to be more bigoted. The reason they are doing this, and it has not been reported and I don't understand why, is that if you were to look at the bluest states in the union, the ones that produce the most harmful intellectual property, the ones that have the most reason to bait, demonstrating what a travesty and the amount of disease, death, and disability, the incompetence of the administration is levied upon our union. The bluest states in the nation are college towns. And they are neutering college towns. Because here's the dirty secret. At NYU, 28% of our students are international. They pay full freight. They're about 50% of our cash flow.

Donald Trump and his administration have gone into the neon bluest regions in America, and he has neutered them. He is going after their cash flow. This is like salt on steroids, right? Because everyone said salt is nothing but retribution against high-tax blue states. This is that times 10. They don't have much time. Why do this when they have so little time? It's all going to be turned over.

It's all going to be turned back. You know, the first, if Biden wins, about half of his administration will be like turning over things like this or like getting, like we're rejoining who? We're redoing this. We're redoing that. I mean, really. So why do it? This is cutting off your kids' credit cards. This is real. The international students, at every university in other game, we talk about, we brag

about that we have students represented on each state and we have students from 28 countries. And we say we have international students for diversity. That's bullshit. International students are some remarkable ones, but for the most part, they're the children or rich kids or exceptional kids, usually from India. But we say it's for diversity, but they pay full freight. They're typically the only ones on campus that are paying absolute 100% tuition. Everybody else at school like Princeton, the actual cost that students pay has actually gone down the last 20 years because of financial aid. Right. But the international students very rarely get any sort of financial aid unless they're here for PhDs or something like that.

Right, right. So this is going, you know, you say follow the money. This is the Trump administration financially neutering the most liberal towns in America. This is fascinating. This is fascinating. This is true. You're right. But I don't think it's going to last. That's the only thing. You think it's going to get turned over? They'll just drop it. Everything's

going to be dropped. All this stuff. And then Bill Barr's going to try to join a corporation and nobody will have him. And a couple of these people will say, we didn't like him. This is if he loses, right? And they'll all go, oh, we really were against him. This is if he loses, right? And they'll all go, oh, we really were against him. And then either they will forgive them or we'll be like, go fuck yourself, the kind of thing.

That's really how it's going to go. But they're going to overturn quite a few of these things, I would say. That's what I would say would happen. And then President Kamala Harris is going to take everybody down. Take them down. That's what she's going to do. Wait, so give me your rant on this Harper's letter

on how and how. Why don't we do that during predictions and then we will. We shall. All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions.

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Okay, Scott, I have to admit it. You're on fire these days. You're very smart. I can't every day. I just literally am like, I honestly go, I go, oh, he was right again. And I'm happy for the show. And then at the same time, I'm like,

oh, he's going to be insufferable. So nonetheless, you were right about Lemonade. You were right about Twitter. You've just been right a lot. You've been quite a lot. And I want a prediction from you, and we will talk at the end about this Harper's situation. I will read you some tweets that I tweeted. But go ahead.

Tell me your prediction. My prediction is twofold, and we've already mentioned it. amount of funding or bailout money that well-funded venture-backed and PE-backed startups is going to be just frightening. And it's going to be, I think, one of the scandals coming out of this. So I think that that's coming. And the second is we're going to see small college towns across America, which have for the last 40 years been these incredibly affluent, robust, which have, for the last 40 years, been these incredibly affluent, robust centers of cultural enrichment, but also, quite frankly, great mini economies because they have, to a certain extent, there's been a transfer of wealth from middle-class households vis-a-vis onerous tuition to these small college towns. And they've benefited that from 40 years. And if this Trump

ruling around not allowing or forcing international students to go home stands, you could have recessions or deeper recessions in almost every college town in America. So I think people are going to start to focus on that. And I think there's going to be a ton of articles listing all the people who took PPP money who, quite frankly, just didn't need it. Yeah. Yeah. But then what? And then what? Because a lot of them aren't going to give it back. They're just like, no, I'm not giving it back. Like some of the Congress people had a bunch. There was a whole bunch of Congress people, a lot of Jared Kushner friends, Kanye West. There was like all kinds of people's taking the money. It's really crazy.

Yeah. Easy, right? Yeah. It was just like, and who's running for, we didn't even get to that. Let's just not. Let's really crazy. Yeah, Yeezy, right? Yeah, it was just like, and who's running for, we didn't even get to that. Let's just not. Let's just not. The birthday party. Let's just not.

I just feel, okay, sure. Sure, why not? Why not? He gave a really unusual interview with Forbes, but he's a very talented entrepreneur and artist. I will say that. That's what I will say, but this is- Well, it's funny until it isn't, right? I mean- Yeah, Elon's involved. I don say that. That's what I will say. But this is kind of...

Well, it's funny until it isn't, right? I mean... Yeah, Elon's involved. I don't think you should make... Maybe he's serious. I just feel like this is too serious a time to be playing. Well, quite frankly, he's more qualified to run than the current president. That is fair.

That is fair. But that's a low bar, my friend. All right, we'll finish up talking about the Harper thing. A large group, I think about 200 of writers, well-known writers and academics, wrote a letter on justice and open debate in Harper's Magazine, which they were whinging about cancel culture. And I'm going to read you a couple of tweets I've put up. This is a guy named Jamal Jordan, who goes under at Lost Black Boy on Twitter. He goes, over 200 people, many of them writers, signed the Harper's letter, yet no one seemed to call out

excessive use of the passive voice or lack of specific examples. Maybe I'm the dumb one. They did prove one thing. You can't argue with a piece of writing that doesn't actually say anything. So that was one, what I thought was really funny. I think there were just a lot of really good criticisms, and I don't think it was pile-on. I think it was really, really smart about what the problem was, which is, first of all, you had different people, some of whom were hypocritical in saying what they were saying.

You know what I mean? Like they have done the same thing themselves. That's one issue. But that's besides the point. I think it's this idea that there's another one from Jessica Valenti. It's fascinating how many people are threatened by the idea that saying dumb shit has consequences. Like, where did you grow, grow up that you could just run your mouth off, which I thought was funny.

You know, I think there was, there's a lot, a lot to that. And Mike Masnick really wrote a really great piece that I recommend to everyone about it. So give me your take. Cause I thought it was a dumb essay and the, the, the, the, the false equivalence. Trump does this, but it's not even the same. Trump's activities really hurt people. This is just, it just, the whole thing was badly done by good, some people who are very, very good writers. So I'm coming down there. That's where I come down. And I also think people

who don't, didn't get to speak, speaking up, this was a group that gets to speak all the time. And I also think people who didn't get to speak, speaking up, this was a group that gets to speak all the time. And so anyway, go ahead, go ahead, make your choice. A lot of good points. I think the article, the letter maybe was not that elegant. I think it's a difficult letter to write, but I'll just speak for someone who spent 20 years on a college campus. I think college campuses have made a lot of progress. I think they're much more what I'll call tolerant of people who don't look like them or empathetic regarding people who don't look like us or like each other. But it seems like we have no tolerance for people who don't think like us. There's very few conservative voices on campus. And now we have gotten to a point where respected academics, whether it's Steven Pinker, put out data.

I'm not going to go with you. And they want to shape an argument. But the thing that makes our arguments stronger is we battle test them and we can appreciate other, at least at the dialogue, rather than saying, oh, Steven Pinker put out something that offends us. Let's ruin his career. No, but it's not ruin his career. His career doesn't get ruined.

None of these people have their career ruined. They don't like counters. Editors are being fired everywhere, Kara. Oh, some it's not ruin his career. His career doesn't get ruined. None of these people have their career ruined. They don't like counters. Editors are being fired everywhere, Kara. Oh, some of the stuff. For some of the stuff. Your editor was fired. That is not, you see, again, you're putting it down to a reductive. It went on a lot longer than you think.

He's a great guy, but made a lot of mistakes. It wasn't just one. And that's just not true. They would like it to be this narrative. It's just not true. These people, listen, this is another thing from him. The idea there's some narrowing ideas is nonsense. These people are getting criticized for their bad ideas and their response to play victim and pretend the space in which they can speak has narrowed. They're full of shit. Spare me the

sob story. Go down the list of signatories. Many are incredibly famous or regularly published in top publication, often appear on TV. They have no fear of their livelihoods. And trust me, whatever contrarian ideas they claim, they're not able to share. They are, in fact, being shared widely. There are all sorts of ways in which they get to express their viewpoints, and they do. Getting criticized for the ideas is called counter-speech. The thing that they claim to be supporting, they're just playing victim. They don't like counter-speech. It's not counter-speech, Cara. There's no doubt there's a difference between consequences when you say something stupid or wrong. And then there's a culture that's decided that if you don't sign up for my orthodoxy

and turn it into my dogma, you're putting your career at risk. And the result is a lack of thoughtful, data-driven debate around key issues that means a lot of the things that we want to see happen will not happen because there isn't an open, honest debate about it. I think this is hardly the biggest issue of our day. And I think that Mike has it right that these people have spent their lives protected in ivory towers, as you write, and now facing real free speech from people from outside their privilege bubble and are freaking the fuck out about it. And I said, so stop pretending consequences and counter speech are anti-speech. You're not actually brave truth tellers you want to be. You're coming off as privileged leaders who are being challenged

by ideas for the first time. The signatories are so quick to clutch pearls, but people actually calling out bad ideas is bad and saying that maybe institutions who have redditorial discretion should be a bit more discretionary. And they think they're facing for the speech or somehow anti-free speech. It's not, I think Gia Tolentino writes about this intelligently, like talking, what it does is you create a bad argument, then you cherry pick the insults and then say you're a victim. It's just, I think you're- Yeah, but you're complaining victimization with people with a dialogue that has been squelched, at least on university campuses that we could all benefit from.

These people never shut up. It's just, it's just, to me, it's- That's just not true. There are a lot of people who feel as if they can't address certain issues right now. The Trump playbook is exactly this. They are on the Mark Zuckerberg side of the equation of this thing. And so. You feel that they're crying victim.

I think they're not just crying victim. It's that every speech doesn't get to be said. It's this is this is this fallacy. And there's something called counter speech from groups of people who've been excluded and been excluded from discussion. What they just don't like that they are finally like when they have a bad idea. from groups of people who've been excluded, had been excluded from discussion. They just don't like that they are finally, like when they have a bad idea, they're looking, whatever you think of any of these writers,

some of them have really bad takes and they should get, none of them are suffering for it very much. And you may think that in college campuses, I understand that you can't do it, but the abuses that went on in college campuses by professors for so long, enough. At some point, you pay for the life you lead, as James Baldwin said. I've quoted him. Yeah. We are producing a generation of guardians of gotcha who are saying to people who, quite

frankly, probably share more about their beliefs than they would imagine, you're holding the gun wrong. You're fighting the enemy wrong. You're helping wrong. And that's permission or that's reason for you to be drawn and quartered and ostracized. Yes, but there's no drawing and quartering. These are the richest people. Oh, my gosh. Are you kidding, Kara? They're just rare. Half the people that come on my podcast give me a list of things they can't talk about because they're worried that they're going to use the wrong verb and that then their faculty is going to come after them. I don't know. I, this, you know, the fact,

the stuff around JK Rowling, she's getting a tat because she's saying things that are, that are trash, by the way. And she should be called trash if that's what people think. And she should take it. And that's, and she could, and she continues to persist in saying it and continues to have a platform. I think all, this is not our biggest problem in this country. And it's being cynically used by the Trump administration in a way that it plays right into their thing. And that's my problem. It's like, why don't we have a real discussion about this rather than have a bunch of overprivileged elitists tell us that they're hurt by people not liking them? Like, I just, it feels like, it feels incredibly tone deaf at a time when people really do need to speak

and hear things that they may not like. We're shooting ourselves in the foot. The far left lets orthodoxy turn into dogma, turns off moderates, and we're no better than the far right. No, that is, oh, come on. Come on. The stuff that the Trump administration does is there's people jailed. Come on, where's my burner phone?

People are actually getting killed for, and getting impacted because of the stuff that the far right has been yanking out. The far left, maybe they're annoying, but there's nobody, like, of the protesters that died, it was all protesters that died. You're conflating so many unrelated things there. I think they're, some of them are very annoying. And I've had this debate with lots of friends of mine. You

know, I think a lot of them are ridiculous. I think they overstep. And at the same time, it's a conversation that has been long and coming from people who have been disenfranchised. The one key question here is, what were you and Stephanie Rule doing without me? How can that happen without me? Where was Stephanie? She'd come down right in the middle, I think, probably. Let's get Stephanie back. Let's get her back. I think Stephanie is with me on this one. I think Stephanie is a proud sister in arms of the Raging Moderates. And we're making a comeback here, Kara. There is a place for us in this world. It's not Raging Moderates. It's not. It's just not.

I just feel like this particular, first of all, read the thing. It's a bonehead. Here we go. No, just read the actual essay. It's so full of the passive voice and it's butts. There's so many word butts in it. It's ridiculous. Don't question my progressive bona fides.

I watch Christian Amanpour. And then when I go home to watch myself on Christian Amanpour, I use DuckDuckGo to find the video. Were you on her show? She's nice. She's a nice lady. I was on her show with the guy, the handsome, dreamy guy. I think his name's Bari or sorry. He's like this totally cooled down, PBS kind of handsome Indian guy. He's very, very dreamy.

I love Christian. She's great. I did a great interview with her at South by Southwest. She's just great. She seems like someone to me that would go on Facebook's board and then leave after two months. She's an eight or nine weeker on Facebook's board. And then bring out the memos we finally need. Not that it would matter.

It wouldn't matter. I'm just telling you, being on the side of Mark Zuckerberg is not the place to be. That's all I got to tell you. Just not history. Do you have a prediction for us, Kara? I don't have any. I predict that I don't know what I'm going to do about my son going to NYU. And you gave me no solace. That's all I have to say. No predict that I don't know what I'm going to do about my son going to NYU. And you gave me no solace.

That's all I have to say. No solace. I'm sorry about that. And you know what? Him infecting you, you would infect him. Let's just make that clear. He's been so careful. And you've traveled all over the God's green earth all over the place.

Hey, look, I get almost infected by Kimberly Gafoil. Yeah, you were. You were near her. I'm just saying, my son wears a mask. Oh, yeah, you were. You were near her. I'm just saying, my son wears a mask. He wants to get tested. He's been very careful. So I'm worried about Scott Galloway. I got tested.

Should he take your course now that you're opening? Yeah, I'm getting tested with him. He wants to get tested. He can. Undergrads can't take it. Only second-year MBAs. Oh, you won't let him in? Second-year MBAs?

That's the only people that can go? Can't he audit? Well, he's not very well connected. No. Of course. He loves you, you know, unfortunately. He't he audit it? Well, he's not very well connected. No. Of course. He loves you, you know, unfortunately. He loves you.

He's like, I love Scott. Is it my predictions or my wavy blonde hair? No, he's like, when we're listening to you in the car sometimes, he's like, that Scott is really smart.

You're being so nice to me today. I don't get what's going on here today. Don't worry. I'm coming back because you're completely an idiot on this Harper's letter. Oh, God, you whiny, whiny. But I'm your idiot.

But I'm your idiot. What a whiny man. I'm your idiot. But I'm your idiot. What a whiny man. I'm your idiot. I'm half of the partnership that's a hundred and... You just did the douche club ad. You know what I mean? Douche house.

Like, if you're a white man, douche house ad, whatever. Because you're interesting. And because you're a white man and a victim. Bringing voice to the overheard. Douche house. Yes, you're such a victim.

I think we're onto something there. All right, Scott. Gotta go. What are you doing for the weekend? The same're on to something there. All right, Scott. Got to go. What are you doing for the weekend? The same thing I do every weekend. Time with the boys. We're going to head back to New York. So, yeah, good stuff.

All good stuff. I'm going to spend time with Stanley Steamer because my cat peed on the couch. Anyway, that's my guess. I would not have guessed that. That would not have been my first guess. Here's another not guess that people didn't know. I gave Eric Johnson, who is the producer of Rico Decode, my red chair, my famous red chair that I bought from Steelcase. How PBS of you.

I know. It's a very expensive chair. What an interesting yet boring moment. Let me just tell you. And then he has this big, long red beard now because he looks like he's fighting for the Union Army. But I said I gave my chair to the to the lead singer from fish and then brooke hammerling who's been on our show said you don't even know fish and i was like i trey anastasia and i shared a carpool in middle school thank you and that there's a piece of information you didn't know me and trey anastasia were car poolers together i did not know that yeah you you didn't. That's another in a long series of incredibly weak

flexes. But seriously, well done. Cat P and Trey Anastasio from Phish. Well done. Anyway, don't forget if there's a story in the news and you're curious about it and want to hear our opinion, email us at pivot at voxmedia.com to be featured on the show. Okay, we're going to get out of here now. Let me read these credits. Today's show was produced by Rebecca Sinanes. Fernando Finite engineered this episode. Eric Anderson is Pivot's executive producer. Special thanks to Eric Johnson, who worked with me on Recode Decode, who is working on this episode.

Thanks also to Drew Burrows. Make sure you subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, or if you're an Android user, check us out on Spotify, or frankly, wherever you listen to podcasts. If you liked our show, please recommend it to a friend. Thanks for listening to Pivot from Vox Media. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Support for this podcast comes from Anthropic. It's not always easy to harness the power and potential of AI. For all the talk around its revolutionary potential,

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