Pivot - Facebook’s Crypto Dreams Bite the Dust, Robinhood M&A Rumors, and Guest W. Kamau Bell

Episode Date: January 28, 2022

Kara and Scott discuss the downfall of Facebook cryptocurrency, Diem, and M&A speculation surrounding Robinhood. Also, another round of Elevator Pitch starring Tom Brady’s NFT platform, Autograph. Then, Friend of Pivot W. Kamau Bell joins to talk about his upcoming documentary, “We Need to Talk About Cosby.” You can find Kamau on Twitter at @wkamaubell. Send us your Listener Mail questions, via Yappa, at nymag.com/pivot. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Just go to Indeed.com slash podcast right now and say you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? You need Indeed. Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher. And I'm Scott Galloway. How are you doing today? How was your big dinner that you like went all sex in the city on the line? Mark Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher. And I'm Scott Galloway.

How are you doing today? How was your big dinner that you, like, went all Sex and the City on the line about with your men? Yeah, it was good. I was with Rex Chapman, the former NBA all-star and a very soulful gentleman. And George Hahn, G-Hahn, G-Man, G-Money. Right, yeah. It was very nice. Yeah. Anderson Cooper canceled. And George Hahn. G-Hahn. G-Man. G-Money. Right. Yeah. It was very nice. Yeah.

Anderson Cooper canceled. Ghosted you. But he's the hot girl. He gets to cancel. Let's be honest. What was his excuse? Some baby excuse? You know, we're so close, I don't like to share those types of things.

It would be inappropriate for me to talk about this stuff. Did you feel bad? Did you all feel bad that the hot girl didn't show up for dinner? You know, Kara, my life is a never-ending stream of people canceling on me. So I've developed a decent amount of callous tissue around people canceling plans with me. Yeah, really? Do they? Yeah. I'm not. I take it in stride. I take it in stride. Do you? People don't dare skip a dinner with me. I'll tell you that. That does not happen. I can just tell you my text is full of responses of me that are very simple. NP. Scott, I'm sorry. I can't make it this weekend. NP. Scott, we've decided we'd rather not work with you. NP. I'm not upset. Yeah. You know what? When people

write that, like, you know, you write no problem. When people do that, I'm like, that's a problem. And I tell them, right, I don't let them get off with the no problem thing. I don't like it. And I declare if I'm unhappy. You should try it sometime. Well, I've kind of moved to that hurts my feelings. Oh, no, no, no, no. Hostility works really well.

And they do not skip again. Let me just tell you. Oh, there's hostility. I just mask it. Okay. You should see how many. And don't ghost my friend Scott. And if you tried it with me, there would be problems between us.

There would be a gay problem between us if you did that to me. Kara, my closet is full of Barbie dolls that don't have their legs on them. I twist off the legs. It's scary in there. It's scary in there. It is scary in there. Well, I'm glad Jihan was there because he's probably like such a, he makes up for it. He's the best. Yeah.

He's the best. He's a really wonderful guy. Anyway, we've got a couple of Pivot MIA announcements. It's going well with the bookings. John Oranger from Shutterstock, who's one of the early investors down in Miami. This is our Miami-focused announcements. John Oranger, I have known him for a long time from Shutterstock, who's one of the early investors down in Miami. This is our Miami-focused announcements. John Orger, I have known him for a long time from Shutterstock, and he's been doing a lot of really interesting investing

and promoting of the area. I like John. It'll be interesting to hear his thoughts about what's happening there and what's going on. We also have the mayor of Miami-Dade, Daniela Levine Cava, who's very interesting, doing all kinds of stuff around climate change. There's, you know, Miami has some issues that they're going to have to deal with. She's the one with the power in Miami and runs that whole huge area.

So that'll be interesting to talk about climate change, running a city. You talk sorts of different political tides going on there with her and others in that state. It's quite an interesting state from a political point of view. So it's going to be great. It's going to be fantastic. Yeah, I'm excited. And it's February in Miami, so it's going to be. Yeah, I'm that.

It's so freezing here today. I literally. It's cold here too. I've had. In Florida? Oh, you're in New York. No, no, no. I'm in New York.

It's cold. I don't like it. I don't like it. I'm excited to go to Miami and put on my flip flops. I'm very excited. We were flip flops the whole time, just so you know, on, no. I'm in New York. Oh, yeah. It's cold. I don't like it. I don't like it. I'm excited to go to Miami and put on my flip-flops. I'm very excited. I'm wearing flip-flops the whole time, just so you know, on stage, including. I have very nice feet, so that'll work fine. But in any case, yeah, I have nice feet.

I have shockingly nice feet. I will show them to you, but in a public setting. You mean after you touch my phone? Oh, my God. I am going to ghost you at dinner. I'm going to invite you to dinner and then not show up. And I'll be out with Anderson and I. I'm used to it. Selfies. I'm totally used to it. Selfies from the gay bar together. Anyway, we'll be dancing all night away. So one thing, shout out to Stephanie Rule, our friend of Pivot. She's apparently taking over for Brian Williams.

I love Brian Williams. He's my friendly uncle who I've been watching for years on the 11th Hour on MSNBC. Stephanie's moving to nighttime, so she can be a lot naughtier. That's my feeling. What do you think? You're exactly right. It's perfect. Stephanie, and I can say this now, this like bullshit morning cheery stuff, like how to best use coupons at the Kroger's. I hate that stuff.

Yeah, she's not very cheery. She how to best use coupons at the Kroger's I hate that stuff yeah yeah she's not she should be she should be a knight she is Stephanie's all about the night she is the night yeah though some people were like online which I was sort of pushed back against they're like oh Brian was like a cup of cocoa that you needed after a tough day like he had all those little aphorisms you know just like a whatever a cow and he had all kinds of Western references and stuff like that with little metaphors. But I don't think so. I think Stephanie's, you know, you don't need to calm down. You need to calm up is what you need to do.

And I think Stephanie will be excellent. She's very funny, too. I think Brian did a great job. I think Stephanie's the right host. Brian, I think, wants to be kind of the next Jon Stewart. All his, I just, every, I've been on with Brian just a couple of times. He's always like kind of folksy and homely. He's like, professor, you're like the moose

that wouldn't be tamed. You know, I don't know what that means, but it's funny. I don't know what that means, Brian. He has all those weird animal references. In any case, Stephanie's very, very funny. I'm hoping her funny side really shows and her very naughty and not naughty.

Is it naughty? I guess it's naughty. What is it? Oh, she's salty. Salty. Salty. Saucy and salty. You should see some of the texts I get from her.

Yeah. Usually like. She puts them on Twitter. Yes, we've seen them. Oh, my God. You're such a fucking idiot. And why wouldn't you send them? Jesus Christ.

Really? It hurts you. I bet that hurts you quietly. It does. Anyway. It does. So let's get to today. Congratulations, Stephanie.

Today we'll talk about Facebook's failed cryptocurrency efforts, Tom Brady's NFT platform, and W. Kamau Bell joins us for a conversation about his new documentary series, We Need to Talk About Cosby. First, just very quickly, Stephen Breyer is leaving Supreme Court. That sort of sucked up Stephanie's news yesterday. He's the antitrust wonk who authored the court's decision in Google versus Oracle. We don't know who his successor is yet, but names are being thrown around. None have the heavy antitrust backgrounds, but one candidate, U.S. District Judge J. Michelle Childs, ruled last year that a California privacy law should apply to a cloud software company that suffered a data breach. I think it's very clear it's going to be a woman, a woman of color, which Joe Biden promised during the campaign.

There's several incredible candidates. I was reading all the profiles of each of them, and it seems strong. But a lot of tech stuff is going to get up to the Supreme Court. This is going to be a very young Supreme Court. So for years to come, they're going to be ruling. Well, a lot of the focus, obviously, is on Roe and voting rights and things like that. There are some really significant privacy and other issues that are going to move up to the Supreme Court and platforms, antitrust, all kinds of stuff. And so it's going to be very important who they put on there.

And there's several. Several of these judges are complete. We'll be able to understand what's happening. Any thoughts? Well, I think every country, every society needs a ballast. And the ballast of the United States has primarily been the middle class and our focus on this incredible accident called the middle class. But also a tremendous ballast, I would argue, until recently has been the Supreme Court. They seemed to get along. They

were thoughtful. You got the sense that their lifetime appointments gave them the courage to kind of like just the facts and really be thoughtful and that they respected each other. And they were, you got the sense that all of them were willing to cross the line for the law and the constitution. And I think they've lost some of that. It feels as if it's reaching everywhere, right? Yeah. It feels as if now they've been infected. And Stephen Breyer is sort of kind of wreaths of that age of kind of unafraid but pragmatic. I thought some of his responses to the challenge around the vaccine mandate were just like, I mean, he just asked simple questions of the lawyer presenting the challenge to the constitutionality of the vaccine mandate. He just struck me as someone who was not only a scholar, but a gentleman. someone who was not only a scholar, but a gentleman. The word is he's being forced to step down maybe a little bit early because they're just so shit scared that another Ruth Bader

Ginsburg situation happens. Yeah. Yep. Yep. He's 83 years old. Yeah. But look, a distinguished career. Well, look, these things are political. They pretend the Supreme Court's not political. It's always been political. I know we try to pretend with the robes and the fancy leeched building they're in, but it's always been political. And this is just, he, in this case, given how the Republicans have behaved, you know, around Merrick Garland, who's now the Attorney General, you know, you got to play tough. And you got to move this thing through just like they did Amy Coney Barrett. They that through i think 36 days or something so they've got a you know again we've got kristen cinnamon joe manchin although i would be shocked if they try to impose their will here the president should be able to pick who he wants of a qualified candidate and if they do that i that's really enough with them i think it's a really difficult situation for them

to really impose themselves of course one thing that I noticed in one of the stories is if one of the senators dies, this Democratic senator in this period, it's all screwed. Well, come on. A couple of Democratic senators have died and come back as Republicans. Yes, that's true. That's true.

Anyway, Donald Trump's social network is trying to recruit influencers without mentioning its founder's name. Probably a good idea. True Social admits any references to Trump in emails to social media stars inviting them to join the network. I think they know who it is in that case, though. Meanwhile, pro-Trump influencers on Gab and Getter are having a hard time growing their audience, according to The Washington Post. Of course, as I said, it's very difficult to do this. Joe Rogan complained that Getter was

fugazi, and he also said fuckery, this month, just 10 days after joining the network. Too much fanfare. He's, it's funny. I mean, you know, these are small things. That's the problem, is they're small sites, and it's very hard to create and make fetch happen. Did you get an invite to Truth Social? I don't. I'm a political enigma.

People don't know how to bucket me. And so I get invites from no one and piss everybody off. Yeah, yeah. There's just no room in the middle for anyone in the middle. But you said this. Yeah. I don't know how much of it is. We like to immediately on the left extract that, oh, this is somehow an indication of the changing temperature of people's view of the right.

I think it's just very difficult to start these networks. Yeah, I agree. If there were a bunch of networks, social networks trying to start on the left, they would struggle as well. Worse, I think. And I think everyone's taking a well-deserved breather from politics. It feels like a lot of the media companies that were focused or kind of not gaslighting but had really great clickbait every day with Donald Trump have seen their ratings and their viewership go down.

Well, look, it's hard to say. CNN is down, what, 80-some percent or 77 percent. MSNBC, some. Fox is less so, but still down. All of them are. And I think it's interesting. We're going to have some of the social media leaders from these sites at Pivot MIA. But it's hard. I want to talk about how, of course, I want to discuss the politics, but I think that how to build a social network, how to create these platforms is a very interesting problem if you don't control various parts of it. This is something, Bongino was just kicked off of YouTube for breaking the rules again. But, and he's moving to Rumble where he's an investor. Creating your own is the only way.

Making your own platform, whatever, is going to be. Anyway, it's interesting. It's an interesting business problem away from all the politics of it. But I don't really think Drew Social needs to use Trump emails. And we have the CEO of Parler coming to Pivot Miami, right? Yep, and Getter. Yep, and we're trying to get Rumble. Trying to get Rumble, too.

Do you know anything about how they're – I have no – I've never been on them. Don't know anything about them. I have. Don't know who backs them. They're not bad. I don't think they're fregazy. I mean, if you're used to something and then it's something else, it's some of the problems. They've had the same hacking problems.

They've got issues around, you know, lots of things. We'll talk about all that and more there. I mean, it's interesting. We're going to have a lot of people critical of us for having there, but they're building these businesses, and we'll talk to them about it. We will also be tough on them on lots of things. The founder of Parler is very handsome. I'm looking forward to meeting him.

Okay, good. Okay, great. Anyway, Pinterest executives are heading toward the exits. At least seven senior executives left the company recently, including the head of core product and the global head of core product and the global head of content and creators. What is happening here? Pinterest CEO Ben Silverman's

dual-class shares are powerful. They don't have to sell. Nobody has to do anything. Yeah, I just hate dual-class shareholder companies because the bottom line is Ben Silverman is a billionaire. So whether he's worth $2 billion one day or $7 billion the other,

he doesn't care. This is his thing. I've always thought Pinterest is a lovely little company that should not be an independent company. I always thought it should be the visual search engine for Google or something. And again, there's antitrust concerns, but I've never thought this was... Like Pinterest and Twitter have been 10-year exercises in how you cannot compete with Facebook and Google. Yep. And they both screwed up and said, okay, let's go after an ad-supported model. And if you're on Pinterest, it's lovely. And then you get all these shitty ads for flooring, and it's just weird.

And Twitter, I'm still not entirely sure how they make money. I don't think I've ever seen an ad on Twitter. Ads on Twitter for me are like hookers. I'm hooker blind. Whenever we go to a bar in Midtown with my friends, like, oh my God, did you see all the hookers? I'm like, I didn't see the hookers. I am literally blind to hookers. I mean, like that nice, attractive young lady who took an interest in me, that was a hooker? I never know how to recognize them. And then my friend goes, if you ever look at a woman and she returns your eye contact, she's a hooker. And I'm like, okay, that's a little rough. Anyways, but I'm blind. I'm blind to ads on Twitter. I still don't. Do you get ads on Twitter? No, I don't know. I've never seen them.

I'm hooked. How do they make money, Kara? How the fuck do they make money? I don't know what they do. I don't know. Anyways, Pinterest, it's a cute thing. I only use it when we do boards, when we're thinking about we're super into furniture and interior design. I use house. I think it's wonderful for that. Yeah. And inspiring. But it's not, it doesn't have the addictive elements or what I call the relevance. Yeah, I haven't gone there a long time.

I have not gone there a long time. Unless you're planning a wedding or thinking about buying soapstone for your kitchen counter. I just, I think this thing is, I don't think it's a standalone company. Yeah, it's kind of,

its energy has been very unusual over the many years. I remember when they had some, you know, press events. That's weird energy. They had like, they had a thing where you went to a press event and they wanted you to make a terrarium while you were there. They had terrarium elements. They wanted you to make a terrarium? A terrarium. I know.

Have I not made a terrarium since I was fourth grade, essentially? This is like the worst private school in San Francisco. I was like, I am not making a terrarium. There are a lot of crafty. They were crafty for a while. You know, I think the energy. I once had dinner with Ben, and he was like, what else should I do with my life? I'm like, aren't you running Pinterest?

What else should I do with my life? Yeah, you know, I think it's, it probably should sell. It probably should sell and get some energy, too, because there's a great idea within it, and it's been successful in many ways. But the energy level, and of course, they had those issues around race issues and gender issues. They lost a lot of money to a very high-ranking executive in a case around sort of freezing her out. And even though it doesn't seem dude-like, it's got a lot of dude energy. It's a different dude, but it's still the same problem.

So anyway, we'll see. Nothing has to happen, but it seems like a right opportunity. I have some stories there. I know someone there. I served on the board with Todd Morgenthau, the CFO and COO, who is just reeks of integrity. And I just think the world of him. He was a tank commander reeks of integrity. And I just think the world of him. He was a tank commander.

You know, served his country. Just, I don't know, just a very impressive man. And also, and I'm still not over this. I'm still not over this. Did he ghost you too for lunch? No, he shows up. Okay. He shows up.

He shows up. Okay, sure. Unlike pretty boy anchors. I bet Stephanie Rule is not going to show up for us anymore. Oh, no. Stephanie loves us. Stephanie loves us. Plus, she's strategic. We're her insurance in case one of us, IEU, gets really big. But I was, this is a true story. In 2011, right as I was starting L2, I did an event at the Morgan Library and I invited a bunch of new companies to present. I had this kind of like, you know, stage the pitch. And this kid showed up named Ben Silberman. And they said, Scott, would you ever consider being an angel investor? You know, the valuation is like $12 million. And

I'm like, 12 million, that's ridiculous. And I didn't do it. And if I'd fucking done that, my terrarium right now would be a Gulfstream. I'd be making terrariums on my G650 as I flew to. But let me just say, I think some of the reasons people even the stock is really down. And at some point you're like, I don't like it here and I'm not making money and goodbye. That's what happens in Silicon Valley all the time. In any case, we'll see. We'll see what happens. We will see what happens.

Okay, let's get to our big story. Our first big story. See what happens. Okay, let's get to our big story, our first big story. Facebook's cryptocurrency efforts may be over before they begin. Speaking of leaving, the group behind Diem, Facebook's proposed cryptocurrency, is exploring a sale of its assets. Diem was previously known as Libra. The U.S. Federal Reserve allegedly sank the project by denying its approval.

Diem's chances look slim late last year when the project lead, David Marcus, left Facebook to do his own coin stuff. You know, this has been fugazied for a long time, I think, in a lot of ways. It was one of these things where Facebook said, we got to be here, just like they've done with newsletters or whatever, you know, trying to compete with Substack,

whatever they do. Sometimes it sticks, but most times it doesn't. So what thinks you? It is also important for Facebook to have a currency. Well, let's take a victory lap here. Who two years ago, when this thing was announced, said that it gave him just incredible joy knowing all these people heading down the 280 to work on Diem were wasting their lives? You did. You did. We said very early this wasn't going to work. And also, this is a victory for humanity because if you go to, and I'm going to get very serious very fast, if you go to any museum that

talks about real dark moments in our history, it's always kind of a three-step process. Somebody weaponizes the media, then they can get control of the economy, which leads to control the military. Then they can get control of the economy, which leads to control of the military. Yeah. And, okay, so how's Facebook done with their control of the media? So the idea that they were going to start to have influence over the economy I saw as a tremendous threat. The great news is, and this is extending to what I think will absolutely be probably one of the biggest product failures in history, Oculus, is that this company isn't very good at homegrown product innovation. It's fantastic at copying other people's shit. I mean, thank God the people who've been charged with copying every attribute of Snap

haven't been trying to copy every attribute of AirPods. I would just have the Snap plagiarists. I would set them free on the AirPods and say Facebook needs a better hardware device. They can't. It's like Microsoft making things. They can't. They just can't. They can't do it.

We're all blessed with that. We're all blessed with their inability. You know, this crypto thing is interesting. Of course, they were smart to be. In this case, I would think this would be an important thing for them in terms of commerce on the site, et cetera. But it's interesting that Amazon has not moved into this in a significant way. Probably where it has a skunkworks on it, this and that. But still, you know, I think they had a lot of headwinds from, like Democrats asked them to shut down its Novi digital wallet.

Even though all this money is going into it, including from VCs, 30 billion into crypto and blockchain startups since 2021. That's a lot. But it just seems like this was not something people were pulling for. And then they had to get cooperation. They were trying to do it in a way that got cooperation from around the globe. And it just was a complex. Yeah, stable point.

It was the right strategy. Yeah. But just to go back for a second to Pinterest, the stock's off from $90. It's at $28. Here's the year-on-year growth by quarter, the last four quarters. They were up 59% in the December 20th quarter of, I think, 2020. Then the March quarter of 2021, down 31%. June 20, up 26%.

And the latest quarter they reported, September, up 3 percent. And it's interesting, the market is like a relationship, and that is it wants consistency, and it would much rather you be growing at 8 or 12 percent a year or a quarter, but consistently. When you start going kind of up 59, down 31, up 26, and three flat, the market goes, we don't know what to make of you. We don't know who we're waking up with in the morning. All right. And it hates that.

We went back down Pinterest alley, but we're in Facebook area. Let me just say, Jack Dorsey gloated on Twitter, posting an article about Diem's failure with Carpe Diem. Don't you love the new Jack Dorsey? I love the new Jack of fewer trades. I love Jack now. He was so nice. He's so naughty.

He's good. Very devilish. Who would have thought that the founder of Twitter would be so good at Twitter? Yeah, right. He's really good. Anyway, in any case, this is an area that they're trying to sell NFTs, buy, create, and sell NFTs. They're moving into that area.

Of course, they had moved into dating, and that didn't really work, I think. Are we talking about Twitter or Facebook? Facebook. I'm just saying, this is an important area for them to move into, I think. And I think they bit off more than they could chew, and they entered it in a way that is like they're entering the metaverse thing. Like, we're the metaverse, instead of moving slowly, I think that was one of the issues. Speaking of fintech acquisitions, this is an interesting one. I doubt Facebook could buy it.

Robinhood and other fintech startups could be up for sale. The tech stock slump continues. Robinhood's stock is down nearly 80% from its peak. It still has 22 million users. It could be attractive. Any deal has to get past the founders' control, about 65% of the companies. So interesting. This fintech area, which was sort of hot, hot, hot, has a lot of little growing pains all over the place.

Yeah, and this is another one, you know, couldn't happen to a nicer group of people. The average revenue per user has gone from $137 to $65. It's worth – It burns itself out. It's kind of – it feels like it, like, you know, the faster – whatever, the faster the ride up, the faster the ride down. Who could buy it? The average account – I mean, we said 32 – there's 32 million accounts at Schwab. Mm-hmm.

And Robinhood has 22 million, but there's a big difference. Yeah. Are they stickers? Do people at Schwab just stay there? I think I've had my Fidelity account. Not only at Schoen, but account side. The average account balance at Charles Schwab is $240,000. Do you know what the average account balance is at Robinhood?

$2,400. $3,500. That was a great guess. Thank you. The balances of Robinhood? 2,400. 3,500. That was a great guess.

Thank you. And so, but at the same time, they're younger and represent the future and a lot of money will come to them. So, it probably is a pretty decent acquisition candidate because it does bring 22 million users. It's a nice brand. And its market cap is down from $60 billion to $13 billion. Who, who, who? Amazon? No. No, they don't want to get into that.

I think it would be one of the bigger guys. I mean, for example, I think Goldman should be in the business of – I think Goldman should have a global – if a 27-year-old – We shall ask the CEO of Goldman at Pivot MIA this question. There you go. There's an idea. Yeah. But if there was something called GS+, I think a 27-year-old in Hong Kong or Delhi or Cape Town would like to trade on it or like to invest in it. I would still call it Robin Hood.

Why not? I think Robin Hood needs – I'm biased because I think – Yeah. We agree. We've went through this with them. But nonetheless, you know, look at what's happening. You can clean things up, you know, even slightly tainted. Well, again, it's that cold, comfortable, heavy blanket of boredom for companies that are controversial.

The problem here is their business model is order flow, and I don't know how. Yeah. I mean, Charles Schwab, for example, they also, to be fair, sell their order flow. The company I'm invested in, Public, carved out a niche because they don't sell order flow. They don't. Right. How are they doing? Are they probably on the market too?

Oh my gosh, they're on fire. They launched crypto a couple months ago, and their ascent has been as vicious as Robinhood's decline over the last six months. But Bitcoin's way down. I think people will still be in it. Bitcoin's way down by half since November, which is interesting. All those people, look, their salary in Bitcoin. Way to go, Eric Adams. But let's just walk through the math. They said, I want my $750,000 signing bonus. I think there was maybe a wide receiver or cornerback. It was Odell Williams. It took 750 grand signing bonus in Bitcoin, which triggers a taxable event of around 40%.

And then it got cut in half. So congratulations, you got about 75 grand. I know, I know, I know. Anyway- And all these mayors who are saying they wanted their cut in half. So congratulations, you got about 75 grand. I know, I know, I know. Anyway. And all these mayors who are saying they wanted their payment in Bitcoin. We can ask if Suarez comes down, we'll ask him and Eric Adams. It's like you're a true public servant now. Yeah, yeah. You're working for free. Oops, oops. Anyway, all right, let's go on a quick break.

When we come back, we'll talk about Tom Brady's NFT trading cards. And then we'll speak to friend of Pivot, W. Kamau Bell, about his new documentary, We Need to Talk About Cosby. scammer. What do you see? For the longest time, we have these images of somebody sitting crouched over their computer with a hoodie on, just kind of typing away in the middle of the night. And honestly, that's not what it is anymore. That's Ian Mitchell, a banker turned fraud fighter. These days, online scams look more like crime syndicates than individual con artists. And they're making bank. Last year, scammers made off with more than $10 billion. It's mind-blowing to see the kind of infrastructure that's been built to facilitate scamming at scale. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of scam centers all around the world.

These are very savvy business people. These are organized criminal rings. And so once we understand the magnitude of this problem, we can protect people better. One challenge that fraud fighters like Ian face is that scam victims sometimes feel too ashamed to discuss what happened to them. But Ian says one of our best defenses is simple. We need to talk to each other. We need to have those awkward conversations around what do you do if you have text messages you don't recognize? What do you do if you start getting asked to send information that's more sensitive? Even my own father fell victim to a, thank goodness, a smaller

dollar scam, but he fell victim and we have these conversations all the time. So we are all at risk and we all need to work together to protect each other. Learn more about how to protect yourself at vox.com slash zelle. And when using digital payment platforms, remember to only send money to people you know and trust. Support for the show comes from Alex Partners. In business, disruption brings not only challenges, but opportunities. As artificial intelligence powers pivotal moments of change, Alex Partners is the consulting firm chief executives can rely on. Alex Partners is dedicated to making sure your company knows what really matters when it comes to AI. As part of their 2024 tech sector report, Alex Partners spoke with nearly 350 tech executives

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Scott, we're back with something different. This is Elevator Pitch. Today, as promised, we're going to talk about Autograph, the NFT platform where Tom Brady is the co-founder. You can cue you to say he's handsome in just a second. Autograph raised $170 million in Series B funding, co-led by Andreessen Horowitz and Kleiner Perkins. Nicole Quinn of Lightspeed Ventures is also an investor. On Autograph, users can buy and sell NFTs from athletes and entertainers, including Tiger Woods, Derek Jeter, Tony Hawk, The Weeknd, Simone Biles. The Weeknd's an investor, apparently.

So this is interesting. Eric Jeter, Tony Hawk, The Weeknd, Simone Biles. The Weeknd's an investor, apparently. So this is interesting. This is sort of the celebrity-ness of NFTs, which celebrities probably all looked up one morning and were like, well, I got to do something here. I know Reese Witherspoon tweeted about it, for example, not this particular thing. They're competing with OpenSea, which is valued at more than $13 billion.

So talk about celebrity and crypto in this area. Well, first off, let's acknowledge just how – just what an incredible athlete Tom Brady is. You know, do you know why both he and Robert Kraft go to Florida? No, don't start. What? For a happy ending for both of them. Oh, my God. Six Super Bowl rings. All right. That was bad. Six Super Bowl rings. All right.

That was bad. That was a joke on Robert Kraft. Speaking of, he was not prostitute blind, I guess. Anyways, look, this totally, do you remember MVP? Oh, yeah. It was, yes. When they have, these pop up and I ignore them, all of them, unilaterally. Well, there are some amazing athletes who go on to do amazing businesses, Roger Staubach.

There are some incredibly talented athletes who go on to be great business people. Agreed. But for the most part, they want to leverage their awareness. And it doesn't translate necessarily into business acumen. But do you remember MVP? It was Michael Jordan, Wayne Gretzky, and John Elway. Yeah. And it was like, how could that thing fail?

And it's like, well, because it wasn't a great business idea and just having these. What did they do? Don't you remember they were going to sell merchandise online? Yeah, I think. That's what I remember. I don't even remember. That's the thing. I mean, I thought it was.

Yeah, they were going to sell sports memorabilia online. And it got some crazy valuation. Yeah. So what think you of this? This has Katie Hahn in it, who has a new fund. She was at Andreessen Horowitz. She's also in OpenSea, I think. So what do we think about this?

This is a huge board. Apple's Eddie Cue's on the board. FTX's Sam Bankman-Fried, artist, The Weeknd is on it. I will absolutely take the over-under on this. I think these companies, these VCs who decide they're going to try and pretend that there's some sort of economics in their star fucking. Let's like, oh, let's get this famous person. Let's get this famous person. I don't think that when you're licensing, when you're creating an apparel license and you can get one of the Kardashians, that makes sense.

But just rounding a group of like very famous people up, it doesn't have a good track record. There's been a bunch of companies like this that just get a bunch of famous people in a room together. And I don't see what these people have to do with NFTs, really. Well, it's interesting. Let me read this from TechCrunch. Go ahead. Crypto has generally been a tough place for discerning celebrities to make a dent or earn a buck without losing some of their cultural capital. Matt Damon received a fair share of ridicule this month for appearing in a corny crypto ad campaign. Earlier this week, Kim Kardashian and Floyd Mayweather were named in a lawsuit brought by disgruntled investors

who backed a token that the two had endorsed. And then Jimmy Fallon and Paris Hilton promoted their Bored Ape NFTs on Fallon's show. The moment was called tacky, sad, and possibly a conflict of interest by the press. So there is a place you know, this should be done by the agency. This is an agency.

And it is linking with a very important company, Dapper Labs, who has signed a bunch of sports deals and things like that. So there has to be a place where they can try this out without starting their own company, without doing it on their own, without not understanding what to trust. So I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. But why? They're creating, my understanding is they're creating a competitor to OpenSeas. Yeah, OpenSeas. So I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. to go to the, it's like, it reminds me a little bit of when artists started their own labels or started their own streaming services. Yeah, maybe so.

And they didn't have the business acumen or the capital to carve out. Quite frankly, I just think OpenSea is going to eat their lunch. OpenSea. OpenSea. OpenSea. Yeah, that's OpenSea. OpenSea. Well, it's, maybe there's more than one.

Okay. Stop mocking me. Well, in any case, it's interesting. I think the agencies should be doing this. I keep thinking why isn't like – shouldn't Ari Emanuel be sort of skulking around this space? William Morris Endeavor? Yeah. WME? It seems like another thing they should help with.

Like I think I would like my agents to do that. I think WME should focus on finally getting a movie deal for that underrated yet highly interesting professor they took on several years ago. That's right. You're an agent. But, all right, UTA, which is my agent. I have made them no money, Kara. I do rather well for my agents, I have to say. They like me.

Well, of course you do. What a shocker. What a shocker. I literally go to L.A. and I go to my agent. He's like this wonderful man, David Worshafter, and I apologize. I'm like, I'm sorry I haven't made you any money. It's like this wonderful man, David Worshaft, and I apologize. I'm like, I'm sorry I haven't made you any money. It's like, it's okay, Scott.

It's okay, Scott. Don't worry. It'll happen, little guy. It'll happen. They'll never know. That's why. They don't know with you. You're one of these people that are like, something could happen with this guy. We never know.

Could be. Who knows? It's only just out of reach. I'm just saying from West Side Story. I keep my enemies closer. Yes. Celebrities are going to be in this area. The question is, do celebrities need to run it?

You know, Matt Damon speaking of which, remember he did that thing with Ben Affleck? They had a whole bunch of internet things. I think I had a meeting with him. Well, Ashton Kutcher, but he was an angel, right? He's successful. He's made, oh yeah. He invested in Uber, right? Coinbase, Uber.

He's in, let's not laugh at it. He's laughing all the way to the bank, Ashton Kutcher. I mean, you could say he's successful just like, do you see who he's married to? Jesus Christ, they're good looking. Yeah, they're very nice. Those two are, that's like Tom Brady, Giselle hot. Yeah. You know, one time I was in LA, last time I was in LA, I think it was, I was eating at that deli in Beverly Hills.

I'm blanking. Nate and Al's. And this table full of people with lots of kids were next. I was having a meeting, and my person I was with— When you say kids, they're like 45, right? No, no, little kids, like screaming little kids, essentially. And I wasn't hearing them because I have screaming little kids. And the person with me was like, oh, they're really noisy.

And I turn, and the person sitting right next to me, Ashton Kutcher, and I know him from all the tech stuff, but it was funny. He was with his kids, with screaming kids and his wife, but it was funny. He was with his kids, with screaming kids and his wife, and it was lovely. Nonetheless, that's a separate story. This is going, there's going to be a place

where celebrities are going to have to deal with this. And very few can do this on their own, and they don't know what to trust. And so I'm a little more positive about this than you are. Thank you. And something, have they asked you to be on it? Have they asked you? No.

You could do a lot of NFTs. I know. I don't have the time. That's the thing. I'm like, where should I go? Like, I don't know who's what and who's where and who's lying. And, you know, I don't know. You know, it's one of these, it's a shakeout period.

So I don't mind this. I don't mind it. It makes sense for someone to do it. I think it'll probably get purchased. But, you know, and the other celebrities don't mind it. It makes sense for someone to do it. I think it'll probably get purchased. And the other celebrities don't trust. That's why they've got Jeter, Woods, Tony Hawk, Simone Biles. They're like, what? I know it's worth something.

And they're always in the FOMA position. Like, what am I losing out on my brand, my personal brand? So, anyway. I used to work at a deli, Cantor's in West Los Angeles. And I quit slicing cold turkey. I quit slicing cold turkey. Did deli, Cantor's in West Los Angeles, and I quit slicing cold turkey. I quit slicing cold turkey. Did you work at Cantor's? No, I went to Cantor's a lot, but I was usually very fucked up after a night of partying at El Coyote.

I used to live very close to Cantor's. Yeah, very hip area now. A lot of sneaker stores, et cetera, and things like that, and lots of hip music and things like that. In any case, I am sort of interested. I am wary but interested as celebrities struggle with this stuff. And a lot of the stuff that's going to be valuable is going to be celebrity stuff. It just is. It's not.

You know what? I actually don't think it's the celebrities that are going to boom here in NFTs. I think it's going to be media companies like Miramax that has all this iconic imagery. And I also think sports teams are going to figure out the technology and the cat. I think, quite frankly, I think the NFL and UEFA and FIFA and the Premier League are going to make a ton of money. I don't know if the individuals are going to figure this out. All right. Well, we'll see. Good luck, Tom Brady. You've had such a hard life. Let's bring in our friend of Pivot. W. Kamau Bell is a comic, podcaster, and host of CNN's United Shades of America, which I really like.

We were just talking about Stephanie Ruhle as salty. He's sort of salty and saucy at the same time. I really enjoy it. It's very funny. His latest documentary series is called We Need to Talk About Cosby, and it delves into the legacy of Bill Cosby and his alleged sexual assaults. Welcome, Kamau. Thanks for coming. Thanks for having me. So as a reminder, Cosby was convicted of felony assault in 2018. His conviction was overturned last year. Cosby still faces two lawsuits alleging sexual assault. So why do we need to talk about Cosby right now and others? Why did you pick this? You know, I don't think I picked it.

I think I was always thinking about it. You know, this is, I was, as I say in the series, I was born in the seventies. I'm a black man who eventually became a standup comedian in large part because of being inspired by Bill Cosby himself, this comedy special. And, you know, and I also tried to live my career in a way that I learned from Bill Cosby, be good on stage and do good in the world. And so, you know, as I said, I'm in the series, I am, you know, I'm a quote unquote, child of Bill Cosby, as a lot of us are of all races who were born into Cosby's America. And, you know, when we started the production on this, Cosby was in prison. So it felt like now that he's gone, and he will either spend the rest of his life there, or he will come out as a

very, very old man. Maybe it's now time to have this very difficult talk about Bill Cosby. But as we say in the series, and as we all know, he got out of prison, which made the conversation more charged and more heated, but maybe more necessary, if not more dangerous. All right. Talk about why it's difficult to have that conversation. Is it because of the juxtaposition to, you know, Dr. Huxtable and how he was portrayed. And everyone's like, oh, no, not that. And then there's all kinds of issues surrounding. Talk a little bit about the challenges. Yeah, there's so many pieces to this. But if you think about the Me Too movement and the powerful men who fell, and I believe mostly white men who fell during the Me Too movement, none of them was anybody's hero.

You might have liked their work. You might have liked their careers, but that you might have respected them for some reason, but they weren't your hero. And they especially weren't your childhood heroes. So, and then you combine that with what Cosby was, a lot of people's childhood heroes like mine. Then you combine that with the fact that Cosby's black

and that which means for black people, we are at a deficit of role models in the public sphere. We don't get equal access to that, even though we put a lot of money into entertainment. And so it feels like that we can't afford to lose him. It feels like, and also he had an over 50 year career where for the majority of it, we felt like he was a good person

and he was doing good in the world. So it's like, you're talking about people who are my mom, who are the same age as him, who feel like they've known him, you know, since they were adults. And you talk about people like me who were just born into a world of Cosby is a good person you should like and support. And then younger kids who maybe just caught the stuff on younger people caught the stuff on reruns. But there's just a lot of generations of people who came up under Bill Cosby and thought that he was the example of black excellence we shall be aimed for. Yeah, you just trigger some memories. When I was in college going to pick up my girlfriend at the sorority and there were 80 young women all huddled watching something in Tenley and they were watching the Cosby show. My girlfriend Melanie said, yeah, every Thursday night, it's like a religion. So my question is,

do you think his celebrity ended up protecting him much longer than it should have? Or did it end up being hurting him in terms of just prosecutorial aggression? Like what role did fame play in all this for him in the case? Well, I think as it did for many of the, again, we go back to the men of the Me Too movement, the celebrity protects you until it doesn't, until the society shifts. I think a lot of this is about, you know, when Cosby came into show business, we were still basically remnants of the studio era, where if Hollywood thought you were going to be a star,

they changed your name, they changed your hair color, they lied about your age, they put you in new clothes, they said, this is the person you're dating, and if you're gay, we don't care, you're dating a woman. And so there was a whole sort of like crafted image that Cosby was still in that sort of era of Hollywood. And as we've gotten more connected and more social media and more internet, those things fall away. So I think that your fame is protecting you less than it used to, but it's still your power and privilege can protect you. So I think the fame certainly

insulated a lot of these men, including Cosby, from the consequences of their action because the structures at play, specifically in Hollywood, if you're making money for the industry, then they're going to look the other way about a lot of things that you shouldn't be doing. And they don't have to be illegal or they don't have to be criminal, but they just think that you're going to get more access to whatever you want. So there's that. And then I also have to say the fact is like the fact is, is that I do believe that in a country that is so prevalent with racism from the very bottom to the top, that there are certainly white people who are who are excited for Cosby's downfall because he's a black man falling. So these things can all exist. I think for a lot of people, it's hard to to understand that. Yes, all of this is true. Powerful men get protected. Cosby was a powerful man. But as he's being dragged down, racism and white supremacy is a part of what is dragging him down. But it doesn't mean he didn't, as I believe, rape and assault over 60 women. So when that happens, that was an interesting part of the discussion. I remember I think he may have brought it up at one point, but there was certainly discussion about that. When you look at that idea of a fall from grace, he did have protectors for

a long time. And where you were on the Cosby spectrum, some people who were his supporters who said something got very pilloried online. At the same time, you know, those who went after him really went after him. So can you talk a little bit about how it played out on social media and also in the public sphere of what he represented as an icon. Well, you know, the social media is not often a place good for nuance. So I think that like whatever side you sort of slightly feel on, you have to dig into your side if you're going to get out there in those social media streets and argue. That's true also of the media. Oftentimes when you go on these shows, you have to really pick your side and dig in. My whole career has

been about trying to bring nuance to conversations. So this whole series is about trying to bring nuance to this and go, some people want to act like Cosby never did anything good for anybody, which is just simply not true. There are many black people in Hollywood and especially behind the scenes who can point to the starts of their career from Cosby hiring them. You talked about advocacy for black stunt performers, for example. Exactly, and that was a story that I didn't know, and most people seem to not know when I tell it to them, that he is credited as being the most important and key figure

in integrating stunt performers and getting Black stunt performers to be hired to do stunts for Black people as opposed to white men being painted Black. So, you know, there's... And if we don't talk about that stuff we're losing history and i think that's important at a time especially when we have school boards around the country debating if we should even teach accurate history and so for me it's like but if you're going to talk about that history you have to talk about the other things that i that all the allegations

too you can't separate these things out and he also he also funded Black filmmakers like Melvin Van Peebles. Yeah, he contributed apparently to Malcolm X, Melvin Van Peebles' first film, Sweet Sweetback. So yeah, it's not about, we want things to be either or, and I feel like it's like, as I learned in improv, often it's yes and. Yes and. So it's really interesting because I'd be curious if the relationship to Hollywood's Black community, you sort of have a, you know, Sidney Poitier just died and obviously another icon, almost untarnished, I mean, completely untarnished, I think. Sort of one of these wonderful, another life-changing actor for me, at least. And how does that, what is his relationship with the black community now? It probably did not exist in correct or not. I don't know.

Yeah. I mean, I think it depends who you are in the black community. You know, I think that for some people who have never met Bill Cosby, they still feel very close to him and they still see him as their dad or their, maybe their grandpa now. And they still, and I've heard from people online who say I worked with him and he was good to me. So this stuff is all bizarre. And I've heard from people online who say, I worked with him and he was good to me. So this stuff is all bizarre. And so I think that like, and there's people who I feel like who did work with him and go, I didn't see anything, but I believe these people.

And so I have a hard time knowing how to talk about this publicly. So, you know, I think that it depends on the person. And for me, it's all about, you know, evolving through this. Like, I didn't want to believe any of this stuff. I wish I didn't believe it because it would be easier to keep him in the space that I had him in before I learned about all these things. But if we don't deal with it, this is the thing that the film really is pointing towards. It's an opportunity to learn for Cosby to teach us something else. It's not about any, it's not about Harvey Weinstein. It's not about Bill Cosby. It's not about any one individual man. It's about how do we create a situation in the industry and in America, but specifically in Hollywood right now, so that if you are the lowest person on the call sheet, if you're

the person whose job is just to watch the coffee, if you see the number one person in the call sheet doing something that you think is a problem, that you feel empowered to go somewhere and have somebody investigate that. And that you won't be fired or suffer consequences, that the people who run the project you're on will prioritize a safe, nurturing work environment over profit. And that I don't, you know, and it doesn't have to be criminal activity. It could be just the fact that we see all these stories about someone like Joss Whedon, where it's like he just does not work well with others, it seems like. But can the PA on one of

the superhero movies go, Joss Whedon is being a jerk without being fired? I'm sure not. Although I'd argue, you have shitty men, the shitty men list. There was just the West Elm guy all over TikTok. He was just a bad date. And, and it's sort of, it comes a little mobby at some point. There is an ability for people to complain and more, Josh Whedon is a perfect example. That started online. It did start online, right? Yeah.

Yes, but it didn't happen. It didn't, enough it doesn't happen. Not in real time. It doesn't happen in real time. I think that like all these, these are, all these lists, like you're saying, are a response to the fact

that it's not happening in real time. It's not happening as these things are going down so that you can sort of, somebody can go to that person and forget anybody in particular and go to that person and go, somebody saw you doing this. Can you explain? And it doesn't mean that you have instantly throw them away. Maybe they go, oops, I didn't, I will never do that again. I'm not, again, I'm not talking about any particular person,

but I'm saying that like if people get checked more often, you're going to get less toxic behavior or you're going to get people go, I shouldn't be in this business because I'm constantly talking about any particular person, but I'm saying that like, if people get checked more often, you're going to get less toxic behavior. Or you're going to get people go, I shouldn't be in this business because I'm constantly getting checked. Or you're going to have the business go, you aren't learning anything. You have to get out of here. And the problem is that we don't, we still don't live in a society overall, but specifically in Hollywood where that's the case. Not, there are sets that are run that way. I mean, certainly with like all the shows I'm on, it's like, it's very clear and it's very all about your feelings

and let's talk this through and checking in with people and making sure that we're not putting people in uncomfortable positions. So, but it's not an industry-wide phenomenon. So come out, I think it would be impossible to approach a story like this and not have a certain set of preconceived notions

about Cosby or the situation. As you learn more about it, what surprised you or what flew in the face of what you were expecting to learn? And also, what do you think we don't understand or would surprise us about what went down? So I think what would surprise everybody is the thing I think that surprised me. I think even if you believe these, the survivors, you can sort of put it in a box that is not a great box to put it in, but you can sort of go over 60 women, Cosby's a big celebrity. You know, even if I believe them, I'm just going to file it under 60 one night stands that went wrong, which is bad and it's

criminal, but you're sort of putting them in sort of a box of like these of a groupie box, which is not a word I use generally. I'm using it for this example. But when you look into the stories, you find out that a lot of these, like, you know, there's women who are women in, sometimes even grooming them, flying them around the country, really, you know, sort of introducing them as his daughter in certain situations. He seems like he worked as hard, just as hard at that as he did in his career. That's something that surprised me and I think will surprise a lot of people when you hear the stories. And I also hope people look into these stories deeper, actually, because there's a lot more than we couldn't include just for time. Right, right. And then the other thing I think surprised me is that, you know,

when we did our first interview with Victoria Valentino, who's a survivor from the late 60s, we were all sort of nervous that this person would come in and be on edge or be capable of being triggered very easily because they were going to come in and tell their story. And after I learned from her and all the other survivors I talked to, and I can't say this is true of all survivors, but the women I talked to aren't owned by what happened to them, aren't owned by this story. There are more painful things in their life than this. They have processed this. What they want to do is achieve

justice for future survivors and make sure that doesn't happen again, which is why they become, the story of their activism was very surprising to me, how Lisa Lott Lublin and her husband Ben have worked to help survivors get statute of limitations laws struck down or expanded around rape around the country. So they're not always a bundle of tears the way you might see them on the news when they're giving those victim impact statements at press conferences. Mostly they're angry and committed to changing things. What's the state of play now? Like, where is he? Is there a good chance he's going to end up back in prison? Someone told me he was thinking about trying to revive a comedy tour. Do prosecutors say, you know what, let's let biology take care of this. He's going to be dead soon. What's the state of play? I mean, currently, because of the statute of limitation laws that were on most of these women's, on these women's cases, I don't know that there's any who still that their cases are still in the statute of limitations within the statute of limitations.

So I don't think that there's any other unless there's other survivors who come forward with it who are in a statute of limitations. I don't know if there's anything that can happen and he can't be tried for what happened with him. And you're constantly again, from what I understand, the state of play is I don't believe that any major promoter would send him out on a comedy tour for multiple reasons. But I also believe that there are venues around the country that would be happy to host him. Yeah, he could self-fund. He's quite wealthy. Presumably he's quite wealthy. He could self-fund, correct? Yes, yeah. I mean, there's any number of ways he could do it. But I think you still have to find a venue that wants to take your money.

But yes, I believe there are venues around the country that would host him. Because as we know, this is a divisive issue because there are a lot of people who support him. But he's also 85 years old, I think. So how many 85-year-olds go out on tour? And also, I know that they talked about not going on tour for a little while because of the two civics, because of the two cases that are against him and how that would complicate those cases. These are civil lawsuits and we'll never know. That's sort of what happened to OJ in a weird way.

So last question, what are you working on now? You have your show and your other show. What do you want to talk about next? Ironically, I'm still doing my day job, United Shades of America. I'm filming an episode this week. Those shows will be out in the spring. What are you focused on right now on that? United Shades of America. I'm filming an episode this week. Those shows will be out in the spring. So it's like... What are you focused on right now on that?

You know, I mean, we thought we would do one season that was sort of about the pandemic. And now we're in our second season that is still in large part about the pandemic and the response and what it's really, not just the pandemic, but 2020 overall. So right now we're about to tape an episode about sort of how Asian Americans and media got politicized through Trump in 2020.

And so we're doing an episode about how many Asian Americans who maybe didn't feel like they didn't find ways to speak out publicly about issues of racism against their community or other communities have really found their voices since Trump and all his racism specifically aimed at Asian people in 2020. Oh, we're all better for him. We'll see. We'll see. We're stronger at least. Anyway, we need to talk about Cosby premieres on Showtime this Sunday at 10 p.m. Thank you, Kamau. Thank you for having me.

Thanks, Kamau. Thank you. All right, Scott. One more quick break. We'll be back for predictions. Thumbtack presents the ins and outs of caring for your home. predictions. Projects done. Out. Word art. Sorry, live laugh lovers. In. Knowing what to do, when to do it, and who to hire.

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Details at Fizz.ca. Okay, Scott, prediction. Give me a prediction. Prediction. So beginning of Q2, we're going to start to, I would say around the April or May timeframe, we're going to start to, I would say around the April or May time frame, we're going to start to get data because Facebook's trying not to break out data around Oculus. But we're going to get data that this thing is a giant flaming bag of shit in the form of a headset.

I think it's already happening. I look at their ads. I'd love to see what the cost of customer acquisition is for what they sell. People like it. They have it. Can you say more? I think there's a, I think,

well, my prediction is the following. I think Facebook will do this kind of two movement thing. They're going to realize that it's not selling well and they're going to come up with all sorts of B2B or other commercial applications

that they can gloss over. We're going to be talking to Magically, CEO at Pivot MIA. But you say people like it. Go ahead. People who use it. I haven't met anyone that likes it.

Everybody uses it like Supernatural. They like a bunch of things on it. A lot of people who use it like it. I was interviewing Debbie Millman, who's a designer. Her wife, Roxane Gay, uses it a lot and loves it. People who use it love it. It's an interesting situation.

I have got to start using all kinds of things all kinds some the exercise this and that i i have got to start using it more i hate to use facebook products but i shall um and i'm going to try some of the others but uh we'll see i don't you're right i don't think it's gonna be huge i don't think everyone's rushing my kids don't have any interest in it like none zero zipadoo they play their video games they like it just on a big screen and i just don't see them drawn to it. That doesn't mean they wouldn't like it. So I don't know.

But that's an interesting prediction. I'm very eager to find out what's going to happen there. I just, I mean, I look at my kids. Like a lot of people who are my age, you think that just because you have teenagers, you have insight into the future of all consumers. Well, you do in a little bit. But the half-life on usage of the thing, constantly bothering, I want an Oculus, I want an Oculus, got it, and it lasted like about as fast as the Fitbit,

just or the Fuelband or name another wearable that's in your drawer. So I'll be very curious. I think numbers are gonna start leaking that this is not, it might have a niche application, it might even have some know, have some market. But this notion that they bet the company – it feels like they kind of bet the company on this thing. Well, they didn't buy for this.

They're saying $10 billion towards – Well, this metaverse. That's the whole metaverse thing. Metaverse is Oculus. Yeah. It's Oculus. Yeah, it is. I just don't – myself, I don't think they're very creative people.

So, I don't think – this requires enormous creativity. And so, it's like Microsoft when it went into the phone business. You know what I mean? I don't think that's fair. I think their ability to monetize teen depression has been exceptionally creative. All right. Okay. I knew you'd pull on that one.

I don't think they're creative. I think this is a creative environment and it's going to be hard for them because they're not creative. Now, I'll have a prediction for once. We had a really interesting Twitter spaces on Peloton last night, and we talked about Oculus because we were talking about all the mirror, all these different heads-up displays of exercise, the use of online exercise stuff. And I have to say, Dan Premack made a very good case that everything will be fine at Peloton, that it will be just fine.

The CEO will gut it through because he wants to run for office. I didn't know that. John Foley? Yeah, apparently in New York. Oh, I didn't know that either. And so he wants to make this a success. He might sell it, but there's no reason he has to. There's no particular. And I have to say, I really became convinced because a lot of the people, we had, I don't know, a thousand people in the thing. People love their Pelotons. Love, love, love. And the same thing we were talking about, and they loved, you know, the attacks they're getting are really interesting, and they definitely have problems. That's not the, that's not, that wasn't what was said. But the kind of affection and love of the product that people have, they had 20 or 30 suggestions, all of which were good.

I want more community. I want them to sell me health stuff. I want them to engage with me this way. I'd like them to... And a lot of the complaints were like, look, their customer service has gotten shitty, but they can fix that, you know, has gotten shitty. It wasn't shitty before, but now it is. But nobody's complaining about the thing. They love the thing and they're willing to pay more for it. There was ideas about bringing together a lot of these, like if you have a Hydro and a Peloton and a this and that, that you bring them together so you don't have to pay $50 across all of them a month, for example. There was one idea that Peloton could be buying up some of

these things because everybody's stocks are depressed because of Peloton stocks being depressed. Anyway, it was interesting. I feel like that was correct. I think they'll be just fine. That is my- Yeah, the NPS on Peloton is substantially higher than Apple or Netflix. It's got one of the highest NPS scores, net promoter scores of any consumer product. Well, Netflix is mentioned as one of the potential buyers, which was interesting. Anyway, Dan was saying. That would be weird. I don't see that. I know, but it's around. He said the rumors are around. Anyway, I was very fascinated by this.

You can listen to it on Twitter because they now can tape these spaces. But I was sort of the audience had some amazing creative suggestions, and I thought, oh, these are people invested in a brand. You should do. You know what would be interesting? And I'm serious. You should do the same thing for Oculus. I should do. You know what would be interesting? And I'm serious. You should do the same thing for Oculus. I'd be very curious what Oculus users say. That's a great idea.

I'll tune into that because I feel as if I don't know enough about it. Yeah, that's a great idea. Okay. Anyway, Scott, that's the fascinating show here. We had, you know, we had hooker blindness and we had Kamau. I don't see anything. I just see women who are interested in me. And men.

I'm going to speak to Ando on your behalf. I'm a little annoyed at him. I'm not happy that he did that. Especially for George Hahn, really. I don't like George Hahn being disrespected. That's my feeling on that. He wasn't disrespected. I'm telling you.

He's the hot one. He gets to cancel last minute. When he said, hey, I've got to cancel, I'm like, no. Why? He's so important. I He gets to cancel last minute. When he said, hey, I've got to cancel, I'm like, no. Why? He's so important. I would just be so aggressive. Anyway, nonetheless, this is a great show. We'll be back on Tuesday for more.

As always, there's so much news happening. It's going to be really great. It keeps coming. It's like the mail. It just keeps on coming. Very excited. A lot of these things we're talking about are going to be discussed at Pivot MIA. Anyway, please read us out, Scott.

Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Evan Engel, and Taylor Griffin, Ernie Ingetot, engineer in this episode. Make sure you subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, or if you're an Android user, check us out on Spotify, or frankly, wherever you listen to podcasts.

If you like the show, please recommend it to a friend. Pivot Miami, February 14th to the 16th. Come to Miami. Come see some of the most interesting CEOs, some of the most interesting people, some of the most interesting people, and Kara Swisher.