Pivot - Facebook's dirty tricks

Episode Date: November 16, 2018

Kara and Scott talk about Facebook and the explosive report on their mismanagement and deception over the past three years.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Scott Galloway. I founded nine businesses, and eight of those nine businesses, a key partner has been QuickBooks, which enables the management team to focus on the levers of really driving value and also provides a dashboard to gain insight into the key operations and finances of the company. QuickBooks has been a pillar of my entrepreneurial efforts. Check out QuickBooks.com. Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Cara Swisher. And I'm Scott Galloway here with breaking news. HQ14A is Cara's, you guessed it, fiesta. Congratulations, Cara. No problem. Well done. You know, we were going to guessed it, Fiesta. Congratulations, Kara. No problem.

Well done. You know, we were going to talk about this Amazon HQ2 mess, which was also sort of bad press for them this cycle because of where they selected and some objections to them picking places where you had predicted they would pick. So it announced its second headquarters in New York City and also sub-Washington, D.C., along with a smaller facility in Nashville, which is basically one of their distribution facilities. But we were going to talk about this, but we really have, there's nothing to talk about today but Facebook, right? Correct? I mean, this New York Times story, which really brought together a lot of stuff, you know,

a lot of amazing reporting has been going on over Cambridge Analytica from The Guardian and from lots and lots of sources. I've been whacking at them in The New York Times in my opinion column and stuff like that. But this really brought together a lot of stuff and included some facts and details that were so disturbing in terms of deflection and trying to push blame elsewhere that even I, who have been really critical of Facebook, was astonished by it. So I'd just love to get your take or whatever you want to talk about.

What are you hearing? I mean, before we jumped on here, you just read a letter, started reading a letter. You know these people. I don't. What are you hearing? I think the repercussions,

especially for Sheryl Sandberg, who really comes off the worst in this story, although I still cannot stand the ability of people to pretend that this is not all Mark Zuckerberg's responsibility. He is the CEO. He has 60%. He's an adult.

And they're treating him like this sort of addled boy king who doesn't know what's going on. It's ridiculous. He knows exactly what's going on. And so I would, to begin, I would say let's put the responsibility where it belongs in the person who controls the company completely. And that's Mark Zuckerberg. But he's got all these executives, including Sheryl Sandberg, who's the COO, Elliot Schrag, who has left, but he was the head of policy and communications, Joel Kaplan, their man in Washington. And this group of people, and many others at the top, really did, as I have been saying, abrogated their responsibility for what happened. And not only that, they had a bunch of dirty tricks to do so, you know what I mean? And so I think it's according to the New York Times. And so there's going to be all these repercussions on all of them in terms of their personal relationships, in terms of their outside of Facebook profiles, which Sheryl Sandberg has a big one from Lean In and stuff like that. But this is a letter from Patrick. I just got it sent to me

by someone, Patrick Gaspard, the president of the Open Society Foundations, just saying the notion that your company at your direction actively engage in the same behavior to try to discredit people exercising their First Amendment rights to protest Facebook's role in disseminating vile propaganda is frankly astonishing to me. It's just, it's disappointing to see how you have failed to monitor hate and misinformation on Facebook's platform to now learn you are an active in promoting these distortions beyond the pale. I mean, you're going to see tons of this, I think.

No question. There's going to be a lot of it. But my question for you is, don't you believe in – people say I'm piling on, but I've been at the bottom of the scrum for a while. And I've always been very reticent to be critical of Ms. Sandberg because I believe she is a protected class of a protected class. Meaning what? Meaning? Well, she's an inspiring woman.

She's written eloquently on personal loss Meaning what? Meaning? Well, she's an inspiring woman. She's written eloquently on personal loss and the important discussion around gender equality. And what has happened is I believe she's the ultimate sheep's clothing around a wolf. Interesting. That's an interesting way to put it. She has been the most effective heat shield in history. Yes. I mean, think about this. Let's talk about Fox, right? What if Rupert Murdoch, what if it came out,

and, you know, you and I have similar feelings about Fox, but what if it came out that the Wall Street Journal was taking ads that were sowing havoc and that their online properties had been weaponized by the GRU, and it ended up that Rupert Murdoch hadn't put in place any safeguards whatsoever to stop the contamination of our elections. No, I said it this morning.

Would he even travel to the U.S.? No. I don't think he would, because I think he'd be worried he'd be arrested when he declines. No, I agree. I mean, someone just, what's interesting, someone just wrote me this, actually. I'll read it directly.

Some will settle down, but I think she looks really bad coming out of this. As you say, in a way, she's the most vulnerable since she's a professional hired woman, and Zuckerberg is the founder, a dude. No one thought he had people skills, altruistic motives anyway. Everyone expects so little from men. I mean, you know what I mean? She will bear the brunt of this, but you're right, I think. That's interesting.

But, you know, they're all responsible. Look, they're all highly paid. They're billionaires. They're beyond billionaires. You know what quote comes to mind for me? I love war history. And Winston Churchill said at the outset of World War II, never have so many owed so much to so few. And it got me thinking, can you think of any individuals who have made so much money doing so much damage? No, no, I can't. I mean, they make tobacco executives look like Mr. Rogers.

Well, you know, it's interesting you say that because just this week I interviewed Mark Benioff for a show that's going to be on MSNBC. It's one of my specials there called Revolution.

And thank you for that ad. And it's actually a really good interview. But in it, and there's clips out there, he talks about them being cigarettes. He said Facebook is a cigarette company.

And then I said, well, people die, you know, from cigarettes. And he kept going. He goes, yes, and they're a cigarette company. They're dying on Facebook well, people die, you know, from cigarettes. And he kept going. He goes, yes, and they're a cigarette company. They're dying on Facebook. Yes. People are being pulled out of cars.

Yeah. And so it was really interesting that, so, you know, recently, before Mark's interview, I did one with Tim Cook. And he, same thing, he had some real criticisms of Facebook. And at one point, I asked him, what would you do if you were in the situation, Mark Zuckerberg's situation? He said, I wouldn't be in this situation. Yeah, that was a great line.

And it prompted so much anger from Facebook. I remember at the time they focused not on what Tim was saying, which was a very cogent discussion of what they should do, instead focusing on that one comment. And as it turns out, Mark was so petty that after he heard that comment in this New York Times article, he switched the phones to Android. Which is serious punishment. Oh, my God. Have you tried to use an Android phone. I mean. Which is serious punishment. Oh, my God.

Have you tried to use an Android phone? No, no, I don't. I don't use an Android phone. Oh, my God. Using an Android phone is like paying for dinner with a Discover card. It's like saying, don't have sex with me. It's the ultimate prophylactic that says I should be. Oh, Scott, once again. I should be screened out of the gene pool. If you use an Android phone or have a Discover card. In any case, in any case. Your family tree should come to an end.

Instead of listening to very cogent feedback from someone who is pretty good at his job, they would focus on that and they were so focused on the comment and I kept saying,

can you listen to what he said? Are you not adults? Like, so what? They took a little shot at you. Well, they're doing it for PR. Well, they're doing, as it turns out,

they tried to slime Apple. Like, right? They tried to slime Apple. They tried to slime George Soros for some because he said negative things you know it's really

they hired this horrible group of people called the definers who believe in sort of like aggressive the definers is that a cult

where everyone's wearing Nikes and drinking Cyanide I know they just like wander around they're like tough and the guy from the definers

quoted in the we like to muddy the waters he just said it like good and that's what he does so it was fine that he said it on the record. But it's just, you know, right now the I'm so, so sorry's just are not going to cut it. The I'm so, oh, once again, you know, like with Beacon or whatever thing that Facebook does that's shitty.

I'm sorry is not good enough now. And they're going to – what's really interesting is what the repercussions will be. First, there will be personal repercussions on all these executives, especially Sheryl Sandberg. There's no question. What does that look like, though? I was thinking this morning we're all going to be in violent agreement. Getting dumped from things. Getting dumped from committees.

Getting dumped from – especially around the stuff around George Soros and the sliming. All right. Getting dumped from lots of groups, I think, one, or boards or something like that. I do think that might be coming. Just not wanting to be affiliated with them. Two, and it depends on what comes out after this, because once this floodgate opens and the New York Times is open, more is going to come out.

You know, all of a sudden, everyone's going to drop a dime on everybody. So then that's the repercussions of everybody dropping more dimes. And you know there's emails and everything else. So that's one thing. The second thing, which I think is more serious, and Facebook put out a statement this morning about it, was saying that one part of when they knew was incorrect in the New York Times story because they have testified before Congress. And these politicians coming after them, and they were

already coming after them, is going to increase exponentially. And Facebook's attempt to push it off onto Google or Twitter or others is just not going to work. They are the target of these politicians. And you know that Senator Warner, Senator Burr, Senator Klobuchar, and various congresspeople are going to just come at these people real hard. And that's really the danger to me. But when it comes after them, is it antitrust? It could be anything. Like it's going to be worse. Now this is going to be worse. Now, this is going to be worse.

Now, the issue is, let me be fair to Facebook. They've done a lot of things since then to fix stuff. I think they're announcing some stuff soon about more to do it, but they've been doing a lot to fix it. It's just that Mark Zuckerberg, and I quoted in a column I'm doing for The New York Times this week, he cannot focus on what happened. He only wants to focus on fixing things as if he – it's like you said, an arsonist cleaning up the mess or something. That wasn't you. That was Anand. But the idea that they're the ones to clean this mess up. Yeah.

What surprises me is that people are surprised because this is an individual. And I like your point about, you know, the fear is all right, big tech, and all of a sudden what might happen is we fire the woman, right? There's only one woman who's the senior executive and all of a sudden she's about to become, I think she was unfairly protected, but I wonder if she's about to be unfairly punished to your point. I think that's an interesting point because you're right, he's responsible, he's the CEO. And the controlling shareholder. Yeah, and he controls the company.

But I'm always surprised that people are surprised that he's not their Jesus Christ because look at his background. All right. He dropped out of college. He screwed over his close friends in college. Then he royally screwed over his best friend soon after he started Facebook. His first professional endeavor was a website that evaluated women on their physical appearance. And he last year proposed a third class of stocks such that he could sell all his stock in Facebook and still control a flock more vast than

Christianity. I mean, what could go wrong? Doesn't this person just reek of poor character and been totally insular? And it's hard not to imagine, it's hard to imagine how a guy like this who became a billionaire so young, became so powerful, doesn't become totally insular and detached. I remember that interview you did where he started sweating like a maniac when he just didn't understand that people were worried about him knowing a lot of information about them. And he just seemed totally flummoxed by the whole thing. I'm just surprised that people give him as much credit, that they're shocked that this stuff is going on. Because the article, some of it's really ugly, but isn't it

just more of the same? Isn't it everything we already knew? Yes, it is. It is. It is. It is. This is something, this is why I've been going crazy about this for so long. It's because they literally are the personification of this sort of – this group think in Silicon Valley that everything they do is like bathed in gold, right? And everything they – every decision they make. And they live in these – they live in violent agreement with each other. Like there's no – you can see it in the lack of diversity. You can see it in the lack of diversity. You can see it in the lack of,

like, without a lot of voices in the room. You can see it. Now, they say they disagree, but they don't. They absolutely, there's nobody putting a brakes on any

of these people because we treat them like boy kings. Like, it's like, you know, it's as if my teenagers were running the show. You know what I mean?

And by the way, they do, my third junior will do a better job, honestly. I agree. You know, kind of thing because they think about about these things. And so I think whether this has repercussions, and we should move on to the next thing, whether this has repercussions,

here's the deal. Young people aren't using this product as much. And the issue is that's where we're going to see it. Is it going to affect advertising? Is it going to affect usage and stuff like that? And I do think there is a lot of risk with congressional inquiries into this. I think you're half right. I think that a red state DA or kind of a flyer might be a small Latin American nation or a small Northern European nation just outright bans Facebook. Well, yeah. Marie Gerd Vestager has been so strong on this for years. Yeah, but you might see someone like Earl Glyde just say, you know what, we're banning Facebook. Well, yeah. Marie Gervais has been so strong on this for years. Yeah, but you might see someone like Earl Glyde just say, you know what? We're banning Facebook. Yeah. We just can't have it here. You could see a country just go gangster on these guys. In terms of the actual business,

I've always maintained that people talk a big game about being angry at Facebook and where do they go to express their outrage? Instagram. Instagram, right. Well, you know. So I don't see, I actually don't see the business, the business lighting up and advertisers don't really have any choice. I don't know. With the Kevin system, I wrote about that. Him leaving, I thought that was a very bad sign. Yeah, but I don't know. I don't see their business decelerating. That's the weird thing.

I'm going to disagree with you on this. There's a dissonance here. Where does P&G and Unilever go? If they decided to pull their advertising from Facebook and Instagram— We've seen this before with AOL. I'm sorry. I've seen it.

But they've been lauded—hold on. They'd be lauded for their noble principled stand, and then their stock would go down 3% to 5% the next day because everyone would wonder how they're going to drive traffic to Tide.com. These guys have no choice. This is a danger of a monopoly or a duopoly. These things die very slowly. Advertisers don't have any choice. I just don't. This is not—these are not good directionals because the question is if they fire anybody, which they won't, the lack of accountability.

I mean, at the very least, this lawyer, Joel Kaplan in Washington, seems quite – his misjudgments are quite perplexing to me. Including sitting behind Brett Kavanaugh at the hearings. You know, talk about conflict of interest. You know, this is the person who's Facebook's person in Washington. And he can have an opinion about Brett Kavanaugh. He just can keep it to himself on both sides, by the way. I can't believe I used that term. But it's just – we'll see.

We'll see. I'm going to disagree. I think this is really bad. I have a couple of questions from a person who's not a journalist but a commentator. You're a journalist. A couple of things stood out to the article. First is, they're clearly going after each other.

And that is, clearly the board members went off the record. It was very angry, it looked like in that story. And he's clearly going on background. Well, I don't know. Or somebody is. Information's coming out of the boardroom.

Yes, that's what's going to... The dime dropping is going to be the problem. I mean, I'm sure—I haven't even looked at my emails today. I'm sure there's 20 dimes dropping in DeCaris Wishart's email. And a couple political ramifications. I believed until about a month ago that Sheryl Sandberg was probably one of the five or six most likely nominees for the Democratic nomination for president. I said no. Oh, no, you're wrong.

Well, I think she was planning to run for president. And then that's done now. And the other thing is, I think Charles Schumer just got, or Chuck Schumer just got himself a competitor for his next election. I agree. I have to say, you know, I noted as I did a podcast with him in which he was kept praising Facebook. Here's a clip from that interview.

You know, Facebook's a very powerful force. I think overall it's been a very positive force. I think now people are taking advantage of the openness of the net and Facebook has an obligation to try and deal with it. I think they, I've talked to them. I truly believe they want to. I truly believe they know that their future is at stake with this. I also believe it's a hard thing to do.

And here's another thing I worry about. They tried to do certain things in the past, and the hard right went and criticized them. Because much of this, the left does very little of this. I mean, we don't use bots the way the Russians would or the hard right people would. And we, meaning the left, not me. So I think when they do that, the hard right criticizes them.

They're going to have to be a little more immune to that criticism and go after the fake stuff and separate it from the legitimate stuff, even if it's a little bit crazy what legitimate people are saying and doing. But do you, when you talk about this power, you're pretty kind to the tech companies. A lot of people are less thrilled with them. Yeah, I am more sympathetic because I think they're in a very difficult position and I worry about government regulation.

And I was like, what are you talking about? They're a disaster. I put up the exchange today on Twitter, and at the time I was perplexed by it. But now this, like, that he went after Warner and Burr, like, now I get it. Or Warner, I guess. Just Warner because he's on his side. But I was, at the time, I literally finished the podcast. I'm like, what was that?

He has no sense that there are some issues here with this company. And it was, I was, it was, and then I thought, well, maybe he's just a Luddite. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I was like, maybe he just doesn't get it. But I guess he got it. I guess. Yeah, I agree. And the scary, last thing.

The scary, I want, the scariest thing I thought. Yeah, I agree. Last thing. I want, the scariest thing I thought about the article and you tell me what you thought the most disturbing thing, the fact that they actually fomented the notion that Soros was behind this.

Soros. Man. Oh my gosh. So they're trading in conspiracy theories. The definers. It's just, wow, that is really,

I mean, that is, you know, that's stuff of a movie. I gotta tell you, how much of an asshole do you have to be to call yourself The Definers? I'm sorry. The Definers. Yeah, that sounds like a bad 70s rock band. We're The Definers, our latest hit.

Yes. It's just like, oh. Next up, The Definers. You can see them sitting. What do you think the scariest thing that can happen? I've got to be all guys sitting there going, yeah, that's a cool name. No woman would sit there and go, yeah, I'll call myself The Defer. The definers. Oh, my God. That is dudes. Yeah, that's dudes. Jeez Louise. All right. So what was the scariest thing in your mind that came

out of that article? What was the most shocking thing? Oh, God, I got to read it again. I got to take notes. The dirty tricks, the dirty tricks. I saw them react like petty assholes to a lot of stuff, but this was like, whoa. And then I remember what they did a couple of years ago against Google. They fomented a fake kind of thing at Google and got in trouble for it. And then I'm recalling it. I'm like, oh, I remember when they did that. I remember when they did that.

So, again, I shouldn't be surprised. The dirty tricks are very disappointing. And the treatment of Alex Stamos, who I know pretty well, who I knew at Yahoo, who tried to uncover a lot of hacking stuff. And I don't think he probably should have told them quicker and stuff like that. But instead of focusing on the fact that he didn't tell them quicker or tell them correctly, it was that versus, oh, my God, we have a leak. So at least – He's clearly the whistleblower here, right?

Oh, yeah. He's talking. He's the person who called the Times. He comes out of this actually looking pretty good. He's talked a lot. He's been on podcasts and stuff like that. He's talking. He's the person who called the Times. He comes out of this actually looking pretty good. He's talked a lot. He's been on podcasts and stuff like that. He's now at Stanford teaching. I like him a lot. I've dealt with him a lot when he was at Yahoo. A lot of these CEOs want to cover up this stuff or find a way to make it less horrible. And he's not one of them. He's not one of them. So, yeah, it seemed like it. I don't know.

I don't know. I don't know who's talking to who. But it's, you know, clearly there's 50 people talking here and there's going to be 500 people talking now. All right. Next thing. Let's go into an ad break. We're going to take a quick break. And when we get back, we'll talk more. In the next advertiser segment brought to you by QuickBooks, we'll hear from a business owner who turned their side hustle into a full-time career. 78% of small businesses in the U.S. have a workforce of one. But it's not easy turning your skills, your passion, yourself into a business. Here's the story of one guy, Nat, who never backed down and turned his side hustle into his full-time gig. Nat's story is brought to you by

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QuickBooks.com. This has been advertiser content. So I think a pretty big deal is that Apple has decided to officially distribute their iPhones on Amazon. That is a big deal. It is a big deal. I didn't get a lot of attention. You're right. It did not. Yeah. Yeah.

So effectively, one of the keys to building a brand is your distribution, right? Hermes doesn't distribute through Walmart. Levi's, Red Tab won't even distribute through, you know, JCPenney's. They'll actually aren't JCPenney's, but they won't distribute through the Orange Tab through different points of distribution because you want to line up, right? Aspiration. Macy's won't carry anything that's in Sears. The distribution has a big impact on a consumer's perception of your brand. And Apple, the ultimate luxury brand, is now on Amazon. And that's a big move. I believe that it's another signal that Apple has jumped the shark and we're at peak Apple.

Really? Okay. Let me talk about that. Well, if you were to say what is the most value-accretive decision in the history of business, most people would say it's Apple's introduction of the iPhone. Okay. The rocket ship that took them to a trillion. And I think they get the brand right, but the decision wrong. I think the ultimate gangster move here that created the first trillion-dollar company was Apple's decision to take literally billions of dollars out of broadcast advertising,

actually under-indexed on advertising, and to pour it into this dying medium called stores. And they have made these just temples to the brand that are just, they're just mind-blowing in terms of how good they are and how good you feel about- I still am happy in an Apple store. I have to say, I was just in one. Oh, they're wonderful. And then if you buy an Android phone, back to Android, you go into a place with bad lighting with a guy named Roy, and he sells you an Android phone, and all you can think about is going back to the Apple store. So distribution is-

They should have food at the Apple store, don't you think? Anyways. They should have a cafeteria there. I would live there. I would like to live there. I would work there. So anyways, they, you know, incredible, incredible bold decision to create, I think they have $7 or $8 billion in leases, 500 and whatever, 50 stores around. When they go into Amazon, I think they're basically saying,

we need the growth, and they're denigrating their distribution. And I worry over time if it's the beginning or the end of their margin. That is an interesting point you make. Their margin support. I think they've got to sell more iPhones. I do think about that. I didn't really buy the new iPhone. I didn't because it wasn't enough.

You know what I mean? I probably will probably get to it. I'll probably replace it because that was on that weird year plan I don't understand whatsoever. And so I'll probably replace them in some way and my kids too. But you're right. I think they have to sell more.

And obviously the issues in China where they've been having a lot of growth are going to be myriad as going forward, especially with these tariffs and trade talks. That is if the Trump people can stop being in the reality show of attacking each other every day inside the White House, if they can focus on it. But some of this China stuff I think is problematic for them.

And then there is the question of whether they have a new product that's really exciting that I will spend more money on. I will spend more money to maintain my Apple presence, but is there something exciting that I would spend a lot of money on? I think that's— Everyone talks about services, but this is—it's going to be really interesting because even Nike, which you'd argue is one of the best brands in the world, when they decided to officially distribute a limited number of SKUs on Amazon, it didn't work. Even Nike couldn't force Amazon to clean up all the gray market stuff, unauthorized distribution. I've bought Apple things on Amazon. I have. Accessories, though, right?

Yeah, accessories. Not refurbished phones. I don't buy refurbished phones. Yeah. This is a fairly big deal, but it'll be interesting to see if it works. Underreported. I agree with you on this. Typically, Amazon, you know, they always say we're partnering. Amazon says we're partnering with Apple. Apple says we with you on this. Typically, Amazon, you know, they always say we're partnering. Amazon says we're partnering with Apple.

Apple says we're partnering with Amazon. Typically, Amazon partners with a brand the way a virus partners with a host. And that is, it works out really well for one of them. So I'll be curious if this works for Apple. And it'll be reported kind of six months in what happened. Right. Well, my only unreported thing is this. Today, the Saudi prosecutor seeks death penalty for five people allegedly involved in the journalist Jamal Khashoggi's death.

I mean, honestly, this was reported a lot, but it sort of fell off the pages during the midterms. But honestly, these people, what I tweeted was, the lying liars have lied. What a surprise. And they're thugs. And again, good luck taking their money, Uber and others. So I just think we should keep reporting basically, these are the five guys.

This is what we should keep reporting on. The witnesses who are going to be killed, yes, that is what they are. That is what they are. So they're the fall guys. Yeah. Well, we'll see. We'll see. They were doing their job.

They were sent to assassinate someone. I don't know. Well, hopefully not. Hopefully people will bang at it, and it remains a reported story, and they link it to the higher parts of the government. There's no question to me that these people don't, like, breathe without permission. You know what I mean? Like, in these countries especially.

So to pretend, again, it's not because someone died. In this case, it was an actual murder. But, like, nothing happens at the top of any of these companies or any of these countries without these people knowing. Yes, I'm annoying. And pretending like you're, like like some addled, whatever. I just don't. One of the things that was interesting in that, getting back to the New York Times piece,

was I had had a problem with Mark answering my question about the impact of his inventions on real people and about people dying. And in the piece, in the New York Times piece, the board got really frustrated when they were revealing the Russia problems. He wordred through solutions without discussing why it happened. Like, you know what I mean? Like the same thing. It's the

same idea. Like, and they were very frustrated by this. It's whirring was the, I can, that's what he does. He whirs like, like, and not discussing. Anyway, it was interesting. So I think. Should we talk about a win of the week? I want to plug something. Yes, let's go that. Win of the week. Go ahead. So my colleague at NYU Stern, Jonathan Haidt, who is just this rock star thinker. Is this the guy who wrote the book? What book did he write? The Coddling of the American Mind.

Coddling, yes. It just came out. Coddling. I should have him on the podcast. It is so – oh, you should. He's fantastic. And it's really fantastic research that says that the rise of smartphones in combination with sort of this bulldozer concierge parenting where we clear out all the obstacles for our kids has created a generation of kids who've never been safer. There's less drunk driving.

There's less, you know, teen pregnancies. But we've also created the most emotionally vulnerable generation. And they get to college and they're hugely depressed. Interesting. And you can literally track this generation. And now there's colleges, including my alma mater, that are disinviting speakers because they're offensive and worried they'll be traumatized. Oh, this is this gang who just cares about people. Oh, come on.

This is not our biggest problem. I'm going to disagree with you on this one. I hate all these writers that write about this, but I will read his book. But I don't think them not being able to hear speakers— We're creating a generation of snowflakes. Oh, come on. That's what college students do. We're creating a generation of snowflakes.

They're a pain in the ass. These people are like, oh, we can't speak at colleges. It's like, oh, I'm a victim. They disinvited. Oh, the mob of Twitter. Oh, come on. They disinvited Sam Zell. I mean, is he really that bad?

I don't know. But that's what happens at colleges all the time. I don't know. I don't think it's our national crisis like the way some of these writers. You have students yelling down professors in class. Oh, no. Oh, you're kidding. And where does that happen? It happens on the East Coast and it happens on the West Coast where we have wealthy parents coddling their kids.

I don't care. So I have a question. No. I know your 13-year-old is in the other room. Are you a coddler? No, I'm not a coddler. I'm a total coddler. No.

Oh, my gosh. I'm a total coddler. And here's why. Let me just say, if someone yells someone down, they yell someone down. Who cares, Scott? Like, honestly, this I'm a total coddler. Let me just say, if someone yells someone down, they yell someone down. Who cares, Scott? Like, honestly, this is not our greatest crisis of America. Like, literally, in America where everyone gets to blab all the frigging time, these people are complaining about not getting to blab. Oh, no, not that.

It's slippery. They say the word slippery slope. I'm going to push them down a slippery slope. We have a vishla, and whenever my wife and I argue, the dog senses it and it goes upstairs. It just can't handle controversy. Well, I'm just telling you. And I'm the same way. When my wife goes after one of our kids, I freak out and I have to go upstairs.

I just can't handle it. They disinvited people somewhat. She is doing what they need to do. One of Jonathan Haidt's great analogies is that we're trying so hard using so many clean wipes around our kids' lives to disinfect them that they're not building the immunities they need. Yes. And I thought that was an outstanding. That is probably true. That is true.

That was an outstanding analogy. That is a good analogy. And I mean, I was bullied a little bit. I don't know if you were bullied, but I look back on it. Oh, really? I was. Never. Not once.

Not once. You did the bullying. I did not. I protected people from bullies. Wow. That's outstanding. I ran the playground, Scott. What do you think? Hello. I ran it so well. I did not. I protected people from bullies. Wow. That's outstanding. I ran the playground, Scott. What do you think?

Hello. I ran it so well. I can totally see that. I can totally see that. I ran a tight playground. I'm running your ass over in the fiesta. So, yeah, but I think you learn coping mechanisms. And when I see what happens at my kids' school, they literally, there is just so much emphasis on protection,

and it may have gone too far. No, I'm a more suck-it-up sister-mother kind of thing. Sister. Good for you. Alex is going to. Allison and Louie, they're good. We're all going to work for Alex. Yeah, that's true. That is absolutely true, 100%. The Jonathan Haidt, The Coddling of the American Mind, an outstanding book. The only thing I'm going to say is these intellectual dark web people exhaust me with their whining. They're just like, stop. Like, if you say stupid things, you're going to get people attacking you.

When I say stupid things on the web, people attack me. That is the game. And if they want to be famous, they have to suck it up. I'm sorry. They need to suck it up. Yeah, but there is a—I do think there is a princess and the pea construct where all of a sudden everybody is just so offended and so angry at everything. And the moment you're a victim, you're right. I know. Right?

If you're offended by something, you're automatically right. No, suck it up. And I don't think that's the way. Suck it up, Scott. Suck it up. You want to be comfortable. Well, right back at you. Right back at you.

Suck it up. I'm going to suck it up. That's why I suck it up all the time. Snowflake. Snowflakey. I'm not snow. I don't care either way. I don't care if people like me or dislike me.

I do not care. It's fine if they want to bar me from things. I don't care. I'm not going to get all indignant. I'm not going to I don't care either way. I don't care if people like me or dislike me. I do not care. It's fine if they want to bar me from things. I don't care. I'm not going to get all indignant. I'm not going to get all dignified to have a little hissy. By the way, my brain almost exploded today. I can see you having a hissy. I was about to go on.

What? I was getting mic'd up to be on MSNBC, and I look up, and you're there on Morning Joe. I did it two weeks ago or a week ago. Yeah. That was timing. That was tape recorded? Yeah. Timing is beautiful. Wow. It seemed very timely. That was tape recorded? Yeah, timing is beautiful.

Wow, it seemed very timely. I know, with the chemical spill and everything, I look like a genius. I look like a frigging genius, I do. By the way, and you're going to hate this question, is there just a ton of sexual energy between those two? There is. I'm sorry to say. I feel like they're about to throw down on the desk. They did. They kissed for me. Go look at my Twitter. They kissed for me.

I put it on Twitter. Oh my God, they're so hot. I would like to see them have sex. People were like, oh, Mark. They have a lot of detractors on Twitter when I put that picture up. I was like, you know what? I had the most fun at that play. I was like, I'm down with their whole jam. I'm good with their jam.

Their jam is good. I get why you don't like it, but I do. So just butt out. Same thing. All right. The only thing I would say for the thing was the win was the forced arbitration thing that moved from Google to Facebook. We don't have to get Facebook and Airbnb.

So fail. Last quick fail and then we'll go. Fail. What's the fail? Quick fail. Oh, come on. It's got to be like this Facebook stuff. I mean, I know everyone's piling on, but this is just really discouraging.

This is just, I mean, it's upsetting. It really is upsetting. So, fail, you know, Facebook. I hope, and I hope we have the backbone and our elected officials have the backbone to do more than just whine and actually address this problem. I think the fail this week was Sarah Sanders, the editing of that video, the way they edited that video. Oh, my gosh. Speeding it up.

I love that Fox is on CNN's side. And then Kellyanne Conway said, wait, they do that on ESPN all the time. Yeah, I know. It's like slow-mo replay or something. You know who I love, though? Her husband, George Conway. Speaking of marriage jams that I love, he's now formed a group. It's called like, it has some fantastic legal name.

What is it like? It's like definers has some fantastic legal name. What is it like? It's like definers, but it's good. It's, what is it? I think it's the key to their marriage. I think that's foreplay. No, I don't. I think he goes out and he says something and she comes home and she says, if you say that again, if you say that again and then they like go at it. No, no.

I think it's total foreplay. Scott, Scott. Oh my God. I'm trying to keep this clean and you always manage to bring in. Do you think he has an Android phone? No. Do you think that's killing his vibe? Anti-Trump clump.

He's competing with the Federalist Society, and it's called, hold on. Oh, wait. This is such a good name. Do you know Kellyanne Conway? I know I've never met her. Checks and Balances. Oh my God, the group is called Checks and Balances, started by George Conway. I love him.

Checks and Balances. I love him. I would like to be his friend. I would like to go to their house for dinner. If they would invite me, I'm here in D.C. Conway's, George Conway, I have a man crush on you like I can't stand with his checks and balances. I think it's so good. It's better than The Definers.

I would not want to get in the way of Kellyanne Conway. You better be careful. You might disappear. Don't worry about it. I just want to be his best friend. I just want to hang with him. I just want to go over. You want to roll with him?

Yes. There is a great profile in the Washington Post about the two of them that is brilliant. It's a brilliant depiction. And since then, I've just been – they've been my like Kardashians. I don't know. Anyway. All right, Scott. It's time to get out of here.

This is a lively one this week. I will see you next week. The last thing. I know I keep expanding this. Most interesting thing that came out of your Benioff interview. Yes. The stuff about the homeless. I think, you know, I think he has been pushing this, is shaming.

Some people think of him as a blowhard. I asked him that directly. And I don't care if he's a blowhard. He's a good blowhard as far as I'm concerned. And he's been pushing on the homeless stuff and pushing for them to give money and to take their hands off of their giant sums of cash and hand it out to people as fortune.

And look for solutions because it's not an easy solution in San Francisco, the homeless problem. And it's, you know, it's not, nobody looks good. The whole gang doesn't look good there, but it's these people with money and means and ideas should be part of the solution.

And I like that. I thought that was- Go Mark. Go Mark. He looks like a guy you want to hug. He's very big and huggable. He's a big, he's like 6'5". He's a big dude.

He's like really tall. He was like eating food. He's a big dude. He's like really tall. He was like eating food. He brought David Blaine. I don't know why. The magician? Yeah. And I said, the magician? And he goes, well, he's a person too.

David Blaine? Yeah, but he's the magician. He was there. I don't know why. Yeah? He had a crew. He brought David Blaine. Whatever.

He was late and he brought David Blaine. So there you have it. Wow. Whatever. We had a great time. It was at the top of Salesforce Tower. You could see the, speaking of fires, you could see the fires and the smoke from the fires. Speaking of underreported, right?

I mean, literally, California's on fire, and there's just so much chaos. We barely notice. It's very sad. I was there for two days. It was hard to breathe. It actually felt like it was in Beijing or something. It was really sad, and it cast a pall over the whole city. And the people dying, it's just,

we're not, the extent of it has not been known. And it's sad that entire towns have been decimated and people have died in just terrible circumstances.

Actually, that's another fail of the week. And I know you, we'll end here. To come out and say that the forestry services have fault here. don't even.

And I'm thinking, okay, so I live in Florida. Are all the hurricanes the forestry services fault as well? It just, that's just so obscene. That was a depressing moment. But what a, again, what a surprise. Florida. Are all the hurricanes the Forestry Service's fault as well? That's just so obscene. That was a depressing moment, but again, what a surprise.

Anyway, it's time to get out of here. I will thank you for doing it. We'll look forward to talking next week. It's Thanksgiving week. And by the way, if you have questions for us or stuff you'd like to hear on this podcast, shoot us an email at pivot at voxmedia.com. Pivot at voxmedia.com. Rebecca Sinanis produces this show. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's

executive producer of audio. Thanks also to Eric Johnson. And thanks for listening to pivot from Vox Media. Join us next week for more breakdown of all things tech and business. If you like what you heard, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening. When you're a business owner, it can sometimes feel like the odds are stacked against you, but QuickBooks knows you never back down. That's why they're always in your corner, making it easier for you to manage your business QuickBooks. Backing you.