Pivot - Fed cuts interest rates (and banks lobby for deregulation), Facebook’s Libra fades… Dorsey’s next move and moments of happiness

Episode Date: March 6, 2020

Kara and Scott talk about the Federal Reserve's interest rate cuts and big banks asking for deregulation. They talk through how COVID-19 may halt the economy. They discuss Facebook's redesign of Libra -- their cryptocurrency and how other coins are faring in the face of COVID-19. In Listener Mail we hear from G/O Media reporter Dhruv Mehrotra about his recent investigation into how Better Help proliferates user data (find the journalists on Twitter @dmehro and @molly_o). In predictions, Kara and Scott disagree about how Dorsey's future with Twitter will play out. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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And I'm Scott Galloway. And Cara, I am more joyous than the CEO of Lysol or Purell right now. You know why? There's not a CEO. Because, Cara, I'm feeling the jomentum. Are you feeling it? No, not really. Do you feel the Joe-mentum? I don't have an opinion.

I'm mad that all the women are out of the race, as usual. And by the way, let's just ignore the fact that I said Joe Biden was going to leave the race without having won a single state. Let's just ignore that for the time being. You did say that. I'm just going to make that point. You were not a Joe-mentum person. You love Mike Bloomberg, who is gone. I am all in on Joe. I'm all in. No, you were you were not a Joe Menton person. You love Mike Bloomberg who's gone. I am all in on Joe.

I'm all in. No, no. You were so capricious. It's ridiculous. First, you were with Beto. And I was like, that guy is like a man boy and he's not going to make it. And you were like, no, no, no. He's the future.

Then you went over to Dreamy Pete. And again, he's the future. I love him. He's the best. Then you moved over to Bloomberg, our favorite billionaire, essentially. And now he's dumped. He's gone. He's left the future. I love him. He's the best. Then you moved over to Bloomberg, our favorite billionaire essentially. And now he's dumped. He's gone. He's left the building.

And now you're Joe Mentum. This is – I would worry about anyone you back. I've got to tell you. Your disparaging comments are compensated by the fact that I like it when you call me capricious. Call me that again and yell at me. Listen. Listen. How can you just shift?

What do you just – You just can't stand the socialists. I want the pivot to the middle. I want the ass-clown, liar, bigot, stupid out of the White House. And you know what? We need to stop, and I'm serious about this, we need to stop taking, we need to realize this is not the Olympics, it's not the decathlon, or it is the decathlon, it's not a biathlon where we base it on debates and how much money you raise. Who can build a coalition? Who can calm the markets when shit gets real? So you were surprised by this, right? You did say you couldn't do this. I'm all in. I'm moving towards Joe. Who would you feel more comfortable if there's another RNA2-like virus?

Look at the cabinet this guy might put together. Who would you rather have as Attorney General? Bill Barr or Kamala Harris? Perry? Or who would you rather have as, I don't know, Secretary of State? Pompeo or whoever it is now? Pompeo. or Mayor Pete. You look at that debate stage the last couple of weeks. It's an outstanding cabinet. Yes, it is. It's America in 2020 as opposed to Selma in 1961 or where Bernie wants to take us, Norway in 1971. This is America moving forward. We need to realize that the president is not about a two-minute soundbite on the debate stage or how much money they raise. I am all in on Joe. I am with Joe. I want you to join me hand

in hand. Bad things can happen. It's not over yet. Let me just say. How is it not over? The problems that he had before exist. So I'm just saying there's going to be a lot of literally my mom called me. She's like, Joe Biden is addled because that's the news on Fox News. And I was like, I can send you a video of Trump. What's adult mean? Is that capricious? What is adult? Just like, you know, just old. I thought Lucky liked Joe. She did. I said, what happened?

You used to love Joe. And she's like, well, you know, he's lost his mind. I was like, would you like me to send you a video of Trump misusing words constantly? And Reagan was all there? Let's be honest.

In any case, I'm just saying there's a lot. It's a long road to November. That's why I'm going to tell you that. It's going to be tough. Greatness is in the agency of others. Joe will bring better others. I want you to go back and then we're going to get to actual stories.

But listen, why didn't you like him before? Don't ignore why you didn't like him before. Just because he was a loser or now he's a winner? That's what you've got to examine. What was it that bothered you before? The thing that bothered me about Joe Biden is that we usually don't go back to elect people. I didn't feel like he demonstrated the same, what I'll call, adroit nimbleness on his feet as some of the other folks. He had put in place a weak campaign and fundraising. But quite

frankly, you know what's exciting is that it doesn't—again, I've had this all wrong. I said this is all about money. He had no money going in. He doesn't have the toxic Avengers known as the Bernie Bros online. And now what's going to happen? Bernie's going to claim, how is Bernie going to claim the whole thing's rigged now? Joe went into Super Tuesday with no money and he didn't have those toxic Avengers online that called the Bernie Bros and he won it. The whole world is moving to the middle. How can they claim it's rigged? They are. They to the middle. How can they claim it's rigged? They are. They're doing it. How can they claim it's rigged? Take a moment to pour one out for Mike Bloomberg, 500 million pour outs from Mark Bloomberg. You

were way behind him and now, because you were looking for an alternative. That's what you were doing. No, I was looking for the person who could win it in the middle. And now I think it's Joe. But what was very interesting about what's happened with Bloomberg is that it's clearly easier to buy a president than buy the presidency. And that is, from a pure economic standpoint, you'd rather be the Koch brothers and just buy a president, as I believe they've done, as so many people have done with the current president, than buy the presidency. And that's a good and a bad thing. But look at what Mayor Bloomberg has done. He's brought tensile strength, organization, and some of the substance and on-the-ground artillery that the Biden campaign was lacking. One plus one equals three. And I just want to give a shout out real quick to, well, probably it'll be later for my win, but Senator Warren, which dropped out of the race today. You know, I can tell you as an academic, she makes the entire academic world look so much

stronger, so much more resilient, that ideas matter, that truth matters, that data matters. And if you had just put, I believe that she elected a female president more so than Hillary, it's just not her. If you think about Senators Klobuchar, Senators Harris, Senator Warren, Senators Klobuchar, Senators Harris, Senator Warren. I'm going to—wait, give me a minute here. So I think one of the big, big points or trends that made us more accepting and helped us get—make great progress about our gay brothers and sisters was Will of Will and Grace. And my favorite show of the aughts, and that is it portrayed two gay men who didn't—were like each other. And they were both likable. And we had this stereotype in the U.S. of what gay men were like, and then we saw that, yes, some gay men are that way and some aren't. And getting more familiar

and getting more comfortable with the idea of being friends or not friends or with neighbors that were gay made us more accepting of homos. And seeing three or four ridiculously competent, strong people who also have ovaries, that is making the world more comfortable with the idea of a female president. So I think Senators Klobuchar, Harris, and Warren absolutely elected the first female president, even if it wasn't them. I think they've made huge progress. You left out Williamson and Gabbard, just FYI. Okay. Like I said. Okay. Like I said. So we got to get to-

The Assad apologist and Oprah's spiritual healer. Yeah. We've got to get those. And obviously Jack Dorsey is still fighting for his job. We will talk about that a little bit later. We'll talk about the wins and fails. What do you think? I'm doing all the, I'm sucking all the action out of the room here. As per usual. That's okay. I like hearing you yammer on. I think we'll see. I'm a, we will see kind of person. I'm like, let's I'm sucking all the oxygen out of the room here. As per usual. That's OK. I like hearing you yammer on. I think we'll see. I'm a we will see kind of person. I'm like let's – it's a long road to November and President Trump has all kinds of dirty tricks.

And I think it's – Joe has got to like get his frigging head in the right place and stick it there. And his problems are he does wander and he does – like that's the – you've got to like – I don't think he can fix that. I'm not sure he can fix that. I think what has to happen, he's got to really bring a strong team around him right away and i think i hate to say this but i've never thought this is what's going to bring down the germaphobe which is covet 19 you know this is this is a big deal this is it's ironic that a germaphobe gets but brought in i think this is really the big issue politically is this uh the economy and covet 19 the fed cut interest rates by half a

percentage point in an emergency rate cut. This is the first emergency rate cut since 2008 when we had obviously the housing crisis. The new benchmark interest rate is a range between 1% and 1.25%. As a result, big banks are seeking some relief. A lobbying group, the Banking Policy Institute, they asked the Federal Reserve to lower capital requirements to ease periodic stress tests banks take to provide they can survive an economic crisis. So that's a big deal. Steve Mnuchin told reporters that he is talking to banking regulators about potential regulatory relief measures, which could be just trying to take advantage of a bad situation. Obviously, airline stocks are getting killed, all kinds of travel stocks. We may not be at South by Southwest, Scott Galloway, but, you know, you joke about it.

But the fact of the matter is that's a $500 million impact on that city. You know, it has an impact on all the companies that are there and it has reverberations well beyond the $500 million. And so let's talk a little bit about healthcare stocks are on the way up. Anthem, Humana, UnitedHealth, Clorox shares, as you said, have risen 10% so far this year. And Gojo Industries, the company behind Purell, privately held company, they're obviously doing really well. So what do you think about this COVID and the economy? You're like CNBC with Ray-Bans. Thank you.

I don't need to watch CNBC today. That was outstanding. So there's a lot there to unpack. But word, my sister, the first thing you brought up about coronavirus, this isn't going to be Trump versus Biden. It's going to be coronavirus versus Hunter Biden. And my friend Todd Benson texted me this late last night. He's absolutely right. The Democrats are going to talk about who do you want. It's kind of that – remember that old commercial, who do you want to get the call? This is – I mean Trump's idiocy and inability to surround himself with competence is really – the chickens are coming home to roost. Because today in the latest thing, he's decided that people with coronavirus should go to work.

Yeah, that was kind of good. Yeah, I did. I heard it. I mean, it's just – and so you can imagine immediately they get the village idiots together and they say, all right, who's going to walk this one back? Who's going to ruin their reputation and go out there and say, well, what he meant to say is it's not a democratic hoax. I mean, this is when in periods of froth and boom economies, we want nose rings and crazy statements and aggression. In periods of chaos and insecurity, we want an adult in the room. And this entire positioning around the Biden campaign will be around how poorly that Trump handled the coronavirus. And wouldn't you rather have a guy in the office who can call, I don't know, on a foreign policy crisis, maybe has on his phone under speed dial a guy named Barack Obama?

How would that feel? That would feel pretty good in the White House, right? And then you're going to have Trump absolutely go after Hunter Biden because let's be honest, Hunter Biden is an unusual, strange guy. And he was put on the board of a petroleum company in the Ukraine. He had no business being on the board. I don't think it was corrupt. I think it was nepotism and it happens everywhere and we need to do something about it. But this isn't going to be Trump-Biden. It's going to be coronavirus versus Hunter-Biden. I was thinking the Hunter-Biden thing. I think people have already done with that story and that's the problem. He has created, Trump has created a

situation where we're done with storylines. Like it's almost like a soap opera and we're kind of done. Everyone is like, yeah, I got the Hunter Biden thing and it's not going to work as well. You think it's done? You think it's played out? I do. I think people are like, OK. OK.

He was a rich kid's son who shouldn't have gotten that job. OK. I got it. Was it really corrupt? Who cares? I think they're going to have a hard time with that storyline and I do think of everything in terms of his show as you know. I was a watcher of it and you can't keep hitting a storyline over and over again.

And I think they've lost it. And I think we moved – he's made us move on to other stories quickly. And this one now is about this crisis and what's – the impact on the economy, the actual real-world impact of people's jobs. I think that really is where the rubber hits the road. And I think that's where – I think you can't bullshit your way out of this. Your responsibility is unattractive. You know, I think what is effective is this is being ginned up and it's just like the flu. I think that works. I hate to say it, but it works because my mom repeated it to me the other day. You can take a flu virus, all that kind of stuff, all this like

crazy old man stuff does tend to work, but only for so long as deaths as deaths increase, as the virus increases, as it gets more as a pandemic develops. I think that's a problem because then you look like an idiot, that kind of thing. And unless, you know, luck of luck, it slows down like it has a little bit in China and it doesn't take on the qualities of hundreds of thousands of people getting sick and tens of thousands of people dying, which nobody wants to have happen. But this is how these things go, unfortunately. And so I think the impact on the economy as much as we should focus on the impact on people is really profound, is really going to be profound, I think. And that's where the issue is. And what's interesting to see is which companies, as you know, all these ones that promote work-at-home stuff is going to do well. Obviously, the anthems and the health care stuff,

the people making Perel, all the kind of things that you would think of are doing well. And all the ones that aren't doing well are the ones you think of, the airlines, hotels, and on and on and on. So I think that's where we are is this economic impact. We were talking off mic about South by Southwest, and there's been a lot of famous people who've called for a boycott of South by Southwest. And I feel like they've sort of grabbed the God mic. And I'm listening to the CDC, which has basically said, keep monitoring it,

but you're no less or more safer, nor are the residents of Austin, if you have by Southwest or not. And again, everyone's scared to make these comments because they could age really poorly. But right now in the US, and I know you don't like these stats, but the fatality rate each year is 1.23%, meaning that about 4 million people die each year. If 10 million people get corona and the current fatality rate holds, it means it'll go from 1.2% to 1.2%, and that is it'll go from 1.23% to 1.24% or 1.23 to 1.24 or 1.25. And life is about, I mean, the math I do, and it's easy to get caught up because the fastest spreading, the most contagious virus in the history of our species is not corona, it's not plague, it's not the Spanish flu, it's fear and panic. And I feel like the media has done such a terrible job reporting on this virus. And the way I look at it is I have 10 more years at South by Southwest. And that is, in my 50s, if I go to South by

Southwest, I could slip and break a hip. There's only so much time left. Time is going faster. So you weigh the risks and you decide, is relevance a chance to see people, a chance to enjoy a great city? And when the CDC says says we don't think there's a reason not to go, I think you go. And you got to live your life. Having sex is dangerous. Driving on the I-95 is dangerous. Water skiing is dangerous. You just got to be smart about the calculated risk. If you're running these companies, look, Google's out. Facebook is out. Intel is out. Netflix is out. Apple is out. You know, these people have cut and run all these tech companies, which is a big part of South by South. We're just using this in his example. But, you know, here there's real world implications. And I think then you worry about the

idea people are going to err on the side of safety. Like what if you're the you're one of your workers got sick by being there? What if there's a sudden outbreak of it there? Why even bother with with the trade, even if it's a small outbreak of it there? Why even bother with the trade, even if it's a small insurance, you know, and it's not going to happen? I think that it doesn't matter. I don't think it's the media's fault or anyone else. I think everybody is going to be like,

I don't want to be the company that sent my staff to South by Southwest and everyone got coronavirus when they got home kind of thing. And then it spreads elsewhere. I think it's just inevitable. I don't think it's fear. I think it's prudent to probably do this.

If you're in that company room, making a decision to go is one that is really fraught. And I don't think people will. And so the question is, will it push everyone into recession? Because this is real money. This is real events. These are real. And that's iterating around everywhere. Every single conference and analog activity has been canceled.

They have. And then, again know, again, it's a question of whether it's going to put us into recession and what that looks like. Yeah, well, we were talking about the last, literally in the last six hours, I was scheduled to go to three events in the next three weeks. Two have been canceled in the last 24 hours. And I understand on a risk-adjusted basis, especially if you're someone like Amazon that's identified a couple people with the virus to pull out, I get it. I understand it. It's a shareholder-driven decision.

The low-probability, high-severity scenario. And the reality is if they don't go to South by Southwest one year, if they skip it one year, it's not the end of the world. But just as the virus is preying on kind of the weak and the older people who have an underlying health condition or respiratory illness, I believe the real kind of victims here, if you will, other than the personal tragedy of people who get sick and die, is that small and medium-sized business. Amazon's going to be fine. You know, Clorox is going to benefit. Some firms, Live Nation will get hurt because maybe people go to fewer concerts. But the real, if you call economic costs, it becomes more of a human toll, is the guy who's catering South by Southwest and has eight employees. Those companies can't survive a cyclical hit. Everybody else is going to be fine. My prediction is we're going to see a short-term recession,

and it's going to come roaring back as long as people continue to sleep through the fact that we're financing this artificial – we're artificially financing the government with irresponsible debt. But that's another talk show. In general, just as it's an entirely different virus for people over the age of 70 or people with underlying respiratory illness, this is an entirely different economic implication for a small and medium-sized business. The big guys are going to— Fair point. Fair point. But what about—lastly, what about the banks asking for relief, this idea that they should have—regulation should be lowered, lower capital requirements? That always makes me nervous. Interest rates are one thing, you know, to get business—making sure business feels like it can be investing.

But this idea about deregulating banks in this time, could that lead to further financial crises? Well, there's two words to describe this. We should have the opportunity to deregulate such that we can be more aggressive around financing certain projects which might lessen the fallout from the coronavirus. And I would summarize that entire effort in two words, gross and opportunistic. The notion of creating – lowering standards such that these companies can fail certain stress tests. So they want us to come out of corona and then perhaps in the midst of a recession or a corporate debt crisis, which a lot of people think might be the next epicenter as opposed to subprime, but the exceptional levels of corporate debt we're at, that the banks are going to be able to get into deeper trouble before they really, really fuck us all up like they did in 2008.

This is stupid. It should be – this dumb idea should be stopped at the door and say, you know what? That's just kind of gross and self-serving. Stop it. Just stop it. They're walking in the coronavirus door trying to do that. It is kind of gross. And they shouldn't have lesser regulatory in this regard regulatory in this regard, I think is just the wrong place. You know, this government has done so much

deregulation and you're starting to see the impact of that. It just seems like COVID should not be the reason they try this. The big lesson here is we need more regulation or specifically we need exceptional increase in funding of the CDC. That's the lesson here. Yep, yep. The CDC. All right, Facebook is also rethinking Libra to appease regulators. Their plan for a single-digit currency, let's be fair to say, has not taken off. They're redesigning it to possibly include several different currencies.

And Bitcoin has also taken a coronavirus hit. The cryptocurrency trading is below 9,000 for the first time since January. So that's an interesting trend because you would think cryptocurrencies would do well in the time of virus. So, you know, you had talked about the idea. First of all, why is Facebook still at this? You know, and again, the trust in the company and other thing else. Why are they still at this? I'm thinking of having David Marcus on the show to talk about this.

And then you mentioned, obviously, Elon Musk was going to design his own coin. Talk briefly about the coin situation, the cryptocurrency situation. So I absolutely love Facebook's Libra. I think it's fantastic. I love it personally because, and there's a lesson in here, and what I tell my students is that... Wait, you love it? Oh, well, let me get there. All right. So the worst, the best thing that can happen to anybody professionally is success.

You know, success is wonderful. The second best thing that can happen, and I'm, as someone who started a lot of businesses, is you fail fast. You start something. It doesn't work. You get immediate market feedback. It's over. You move on. I started an e-commerce incubator in 1999. I raised money from JP Morgan, Goldman, Maveron, all these big players in December

of 1999. Not great timing. By March of 2000, it was effectively over. And that was sort of a blessing because if you're going to fail, fail fast. The worst thing that can happen to an organization or an individual, especially someone starting a company, is that you fail slowly. I started a company called Red Envelope, and we failed slowly over 10 years. It was devastating. Remember Red Envelope? So anyways, it gives me a great amount of joy to think that there's just enough success for the people at Facebook to continue to go to work and allocate capital so they can fail slowly. And that is exactly what I'm hoping happens here. I thought most likely it was going to fail fast. But in the case of Libra, what we have is a company failing slowly. And I love the people. I just love the idea of hundreds or maybe even thousands of people who have made excuses

for Mark Zuckerberg and Sheryl Sandberg going to work today and that they are absolutely in the midst of an enormously glacier-like failure. Libra will not happen. It's just a question of if it fails slowly or fast. They did get a bit of a Botox boost last week and when that Shopify decided to join the consortium, which made no sense to me. But this thing will not happen. It's a great idea. But again, unfortunately, it's from the good folks at Facebook whose leader puts a piece of tape over his camera and you have control of the media and now want to take control of the economy and then the military and then find out that their very naive sociopath has been the most dangerous man in history. All right. Well, so therefore, and what about Elon Musk? Too much. Too much. No, you want them to fail slowly. I love that.

That's like, just slowly over here. Don't tell them they're failing over to let them bleed out. They should just stick to their knitting. I think what you're basically saying is eventually they have to stick to their friggin knitting. And the idea that you're successful in one area and that you can move to Facebook. Keep at it. It's a great idea for you. It's definitely going to pay off. And where's your Elon coin? He tweeted in support of a minor Bitcoin.

I wonder if Sheryl Sandberg used Libra on her honeymoon, on her engagement party when she was at refugee camps. No, no. When she was at refugee camps. Where's your Elon coin? That's what I want to know. He was supporting a Bitcoin rival called Dogecoin. T-coin. T-coin.

I don't know. He could do it. It won't be a stable currency, though. It won't be a basket. He's more gangster than that and not as thoughtful. I mean, he's a genius. But I think he'll just—I think if the Tesla stock in any way regresses to some natural level below $100, he will think of—he could pull off a coin. He has that same fanaticism following that Bitcoin gets.

All right. So they could absolutely pull off. The way you do coins is what Facebook wanted to do. So they could absolutely pull off. The way you do coins is what Facebook wanted to do. They wanted to be more responsible and have it guaranteed by a basket of currencies as opposed to it being a currency. It was going to be an asset or something representing a basket of assets that could be tradable and transfer assets. Whereas Bitcoin is just a currency where two parties agree that something is worth something. Tesla could effectively do a coin.

To avoid the SEC, what you can do is you can say, all right, initially we're launching a million coins or 100,000 coins, and what this coin does is it puts you first in line for any Tesla product. And then you can avoid the SEC. That's marketing. That's exactly. It's the launch. You need kind of the launch.

You can avoid the SEC. That's marketing. That's exactly. It's the launch. You need kind of the launch without – if it represents ownership in Tesla, then it's subject to SEC regulations. And Elon doesn't do well with that. Yeah. But they could pull it off. Tesla is one of the few companies in the world that could pull off what I call a non-stable coin.

Whereas an Amazon would have to go stable and do a basket of currencies, which requires a lot more regulation. Just what I want to buy, a non-stable coin. Unstable coin. To get a car that may not be built. Sounds fantastic. Well, we have a stable genius as president. His stock is killing it. Killing it.

Oh, my God. It's killing it. That's kind of why I was hoping South by Southwest would be canceled so I wouldn't have to face people where a year ago I said that Tesla was going to crash when it was at $300 a year. I have it all queued up. In any case, Scott, we have to take a quick break. We'll be right back with a listener mail and predictions. Fox Creative.

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So we reached out to Dhruv Mehrotra to tell us a bit more. Hi, my name is Dhruv Mehrotra. I am an investigative data reporter at GeoMedia. A few weeks ago, Molly Osberg and I put out a story in Jezebel about how online therapy apps are leaking sensitive mental health data to companies like Facebook and Mixpanel. For the story, Molly and I did a week of online therapy with two popular apps, BetterHelp and Talkspace. In the process, we used software to monitor and track the various third parties that were receiving data about us while we spoke to therapists or filled out intake forms. The article basically finds that the regulations that safeguard medical data are unprepared to deal with the realities of online advertising. We reached out to BetterHelp several times,

and they essentially just told us that this type of behavior is pretty standard practice for measuring engagement, and that they aren't collecting personally identifiable information. However, as an end user, while all of this may be legal, it certainly feels like a deep invasion of privacy. So the question that I have is this, what will it take for companies like BetterHelp to take this stuff seriously?

All right, there's a lot to unpack here. Now, full disclosure, again, we BetterHelp advertises with us, but this is a real big problem. We wanna get people these, I recently talked to the head of Stanford Medical School and other. I'm doing a lot of health care related podcasts at Recode Decode.

And one of the things that comes through is what do we how do we get these things off the ground? They really haven't. And a lot of it has to do with HIPAA and privacy. But at the same time, people should be able to avail themselves the same way in other areas to these things. So what from an advertising perspective, how damaging for people and profitable for companies to access this level of personal information depends on how much information they get, whether it's identifiable, and then what responsibility do therapists have to disclose this type of information to patients? Well, it's the same tension we're dealing with everywhere, the tension between utility and privacy. And I've always thought that the real danger is not that you can't trust better health or calm.

I think there's some great online. I think online could be tremendously powerful as it relates to talk therapy and bringing the cost down and taking the friction out of. I mean, there's a lot of friction. If someone's not feeling well and they think I could really use a certified professional to speak to about some of the shit that's going on in my head. There's a lot of friction to figure that out. So the idea of an app that helps connect you with a licensed professional, I think that's a wonderful unlock. But with something like that, I wonder if you just turn off all targeting and they're not in the data business. And where my head immediately goes to, Kara, is that one of the reasons that Apple is so well

positioned to get into healthcare is that they have made some real sacrifices and some of it's PR, some of it's real around emphasizing privacy. But it feels like with something like that, it's a decent idea for these companies just to say, we're just going to shut off all data as it relates to targeting. We're not selling our data. We're not using our data. And we're bringing in these crazy cybersecurity experts to make sure that we're not hackable. Because it's not that these firms are malicious in terms of their use of the data. It's the fact that many of them haven't put in place the standards, the requisite standards to ensure that data isn't weaponized or hacked by someone else.

Yeah, I think hacking is the other. I mean what's interesting is does the government regulate it? Especially you want to call it sensitive data, but I think all data is sensitive. Because as you said, to your point, a few months ago an article came out saying that several dating apps had released data about things like sexual orientation at third parties. As you move into these areas, it really does. If there should be two types of ways to handle data, um, and what's the ethical difference between selling data about the content of messages versus larger metadata, um, would you invest in one or you, when you invest, how do you think about this kind of things? Cause you know, if something got out in the wild,

especially on dating apps or mental health apps or any health apps, but things like that, it starts to get – children. There's all kinds of areas where it starts to get really problematic for these companies. And government – this is just the kind of thing government jams in on and does something about. Yeah, this is sort of a trope event though. I think – I don't know. I haven't looked at these companies. So I don't know. Investing is such a – your decisions are one, do you like the management team? Do you, I've always

invested behind people, not concepts, because typically a startup changes the concept midstreams, but you still have the same management team, so you want to invest behind people. And then you look obviously at the market and the valuation, et cetera. But this is a space that somebody is going to emerge in this space. Now, like almost every space online, it will likely, there'll be a lot of innovators and they'll be to be acquired or put or have infanticide performed on them in Apple or Google or someone will step in. But this is, I don't think this is, I don't think this is any reason to avoid these apps. I don't think it's any reason to avoid investing in them. I think it's, I think it's a catalyst and what I would call almost like a wake-up call for this sector to say, we should operate by a

different set of standards because our data is so sensitive. I mean, talk about the CDC. Google, every major tech company has had their data hacked. CDC hasn't had their data hacked. We constantly- That we know, but go ahead. Sorry, go ahead. Keep going. Well, I think that would have gotten out. But my point is that we constantly talk about the geniuses in Silicon Valley and how stupid the government is. Meanwhile, the CDC has the most sensitive information in the world, and they have put in place the requisite safeguards because they're not a for-profit company to ensure that arguably the most sensitive data in the world is kept private. So I think it's a wake-up call for the health guys.

I don't know the company that advertises with us, but I think this is an exciting field and could be a huge unlock that is both profitable and really, really wonderful for society. We've talked a lot about mental health. I think mental health, just as cancer has become, I think one of the reasons that we've found that cancer is now more curable, that the survival rates have gone above 50% in addition to incredible research and funding, a lot of it is societal, and that is cancer used to be something you didn't talk about. It was almost like there was something wrong with you. People were very hush-hush about it. Women didn't talk about female cancers. Men didn't talk about prostate cancer.

And just having it come into the dialogue and speaking openly and honestly about it leads to early detection. I think the next big unlock from a societal dialogue standpoint is mental illness, which touches every life at some point. Have you ever used any of these? I've used the Calm and the meditation apps, but you haven't used any of these. You know what, though? I did a podcast with Sam Harris last week. Yes. How did that go?

He's groovy. He's very, like, calming and nice. And the guy has incredible—the thing that struck me about him, he has incredible range. He knows—you know how some people know a lot about one subject or very little about everything? He seemed to know a lot about a lot of different subjects. I felt like I was talking to someone who knew more about this subject on anything I brought up. And he also has that kind of dreaming, calming voice

where you just want to put your head on his shoulder and have him pet you. I really don't want to do that, but okay. He is very calming. But I liked it. But anyways, he brought up, I said in the last half of the show, because he's very into meditation. I was fairly open with him. I said, let me flip the script here. I struggle with anger and half of the show, because he's very into meditation, I was fairly open with him. I said, let me flip the script here.

I struggle with anger and kind of mild depression, and I want to understand how meditation can help my blessings foot to my mood more regularly. And he talked a lot about it. He's very thoughtful. I think he's the kind of guy that could start a podcast or a meditation app and I think would do pretty well. The other thing that's interesting about Sam Harris that you and I should be thinking about is he's been quite successful putting his content behind a wall. And that is we did a two-hour podcast and the first hour is free or penance for some people. And then he stops it in an hour and he says, if you want to listen to the full thing, make sure you subscribe. And he charges people five bucks a month. And my understanding is he has a lot of subscribers. Wow. We could go

on. Lots of people do that. There you go. Send it to an enemy. Send it to an enemy. That's interesting. But anyway, what do you think? What do you think of these apps? I don't use them because I worry about the data implications. I mean, I have no mental health problems, as you know, Scott. I'm completely actualized. Someone said that to me. Someone literally said that to me last night. They were like, I said I was happy. Someone was at a dinner thing,

and they're like, no, you're not happy. I go, no, I'm pretty happy. I'm very happy. And they're like, well, no, you don't know that you're not unhappy. I go, no, I'm really happy. I don't know what to say. And they said, you can't say that.

I go, I'm pretty happy. And then again last night, someone said you're fully actualized, which is really interesting. So I might not use it because I don't really have, I don't feel, to say. And they said, you can't say that. I go, I'm pretty happy. And then again last night someone said you're fully actualized, which is really interesting. So I might not use it because I don't really have – I don't feel – I really do feel very happy. But here's the deal. I would worry about the data. I just don't – I don't know who they are, if they're going to close, whether it's BetterHelp or whatever the other one is. I just don't know what's going to happen to them.

And I just had this issue around 23andMe where I was one of the first people to use it because we showed it off at one of our early all things Ds. And they have all my genetic data. And just recently, they've done some layoffs. And I think they're fully committed to keeping the stuff safe. But then I'm like, oh, my God, I better destroy it. Like, you know what I mean? Like, my data is out there. And like, what was I thinking? Because it's out there. I don't know. Word's going to get out that at some point in the future, you're going to be short with great hair. Or like clear. I just recently have started to think like they have my eye thing.

And then I'm like, you know what? I'm just fucked if a crazy, if a crazy, they'll find me. The cat's out of the bag. But let me ask you this. My genetic history is I am German and Italian, which means I'm smart enough to know that I'm fucked up, but too lazy to do anything about it. Is that racist? Is that racist?

I don't even want to know. Is that racist? Yeah, sure. Yeah, go ahead. Okay. Anyways, that's my genealogy joke. All right. 23andMe joke.

Your genealogy jokes need some work, but go ahead. Keep going. I did 23andMe and it said I was going to have to pee five times tonight when I was sleeping. Yeah. I know that's a problem for you aged people. So I just worry about the thing and the trust in these companies. And again, there's so much data out there. But these particular, particularly sensitive data, mental health, health data, dating data, genetic data, there's got to be a different, like, there's some, and just today, there was an amazing story on the New York Times

by Kashmir Hill, I think is one of the best reporters out there on these issues, is this facial recognition company Clearview. You know, they handed it out to their investors, including Ashton Kutcher had it, and they were showing it off, like that you could put it up, like it was supposedly, they're giving the view out that they're only giving it to law enforcement people. But actually like Ashton Kutcher's walk in, the guy who runs Gristini's is walking around and his daughter came in and he checked the facial recognition of her date.

And so that's like I'm like, are you freaking kidding me? You see how these things go. And so that's. But it's just isn't it? I didn't know how I'm curious. Gristini's guy and Ashton Kutcher. What? Isn't that just Googling someone and taking it to the next level?

Yes. Well, that's what Clearview is saying. You can just Google someone. But this case, you put the camera in front of someone and you could get all their information. So, yeah, it's like a super Google really. But it takes it one step further because he didn't know his name. And so instead of like asking the daughter the name of the date so he could search for them and stalk them online, he just had the waiter take a picture and did it. And then it's a party trick for some of these people.

But it's still like it's just – I don't know. I just – it takes it a step further. Institutions – Ivo said this. Look, institutions matter and I think we're all looking for guidance around this. And there's a wisdom of crowds and we elect officials. for guidance around this. And there's a wisdom of crowds and we elect officials and the idea of the word liberal and the term liberal democracy is that we insert institutions to slow down. So our fast move thinking moves to slow thinking, the total Kahneman. And then we think, all right, what components of data, where does the data versus utility versus something scary or violation

of your property, what's the intersection of that? And how do we create laws or how do we create, quite frankly, liabilities such that if a company ends up doing something wrong, they can get sued and they get more careful about it. But it feels like there's an absence of institutions or institutions haven't caught up with the age. All right. You're absolutely right. That's very wise, Scott Galloway. Oh, yeah. It's because you've been meditating on the app.

So predictions. We don't have wins and fails today. So I'm going to force your prediction in a certain way. You may have a different one. But where is – Elizabeth Warren does not endorse anybody. And there's a question whether she should be Senate majority leader if the Democrats win. Which one will she go to if she makes an endorsement? The fact that she's not making endorsement tells me bad things for Bernie Sanders because that's where she would naturally go. Oh, 100 percent.

So what happens with her? Because she's going to be a big player I think here. So let me – I get more than my fair share of predictions right about business. I get more than wrong about politics. I'm clearly in a bubble and don't know what's going on. But I think just in terms of game theory, the fact that she didn't immediately come out and endorse Sanders means she's seen the tea leaves and recognizes that Sanders is not going to win. And she's either holding onto her cards for a later endorsement for Biden. But you know, it'd be a pretty interesting ticket is Biden-Sanders would take the moderate and then probably do some sort of, I mean, let's be honest, Elizabeth Warren is sort of in some ways

non-carbonated or in some ways the more effective Bernie Sanders. She's actually passed legislation, whereas Bernie just rants and raves in his past five bills, including two to put post offices in Vermont. Yeah, there's a great legislator. Anyways, the only prediction I'll have around that, I don't know, she's not going to endorse Sanders because I think these people are all very power hungry. I think they're all very strategic. And that would be her- She had that kerfuffle with him over whether women could be president. Remember? You don't remember that when they had the little fight at the table? Yeah, I think they're all hornier for power than they are around being easily offended.

I think she's going to go with the winner right now. Joe has so much momentum. Joe-mentum. And all that. I mean, what do you think? A Biden-Warden ticket would be pretty interesting. It would really consolidate a lot. It would be.

It's very East Coast. It's very East Coast. The VP is supposed to be the attack dog, and she is. Yeah, she's a good one. No one's better than her. Her with Pence. Oh, my God. Her with Pence would be like, I would pay $150 to watch that card.

Who would you rather be on your softball team or be arm-to-arm with you in legislation? She took down your friend Bloomberg. She took down your candidate Bloomberg. Who would you rather have on your side or have all the blood draw out of your face when you see she's on the other side than Senator Warren? Her, I think, yeah. She's a fantastic ally and a fierce enemy. Yeah, that could be interesting. Also, Klobuchar is another possible VP choice for him.

So is Kamala Harris, Stacey Abrams. You mean the ruthless real estate realtor, Amy Klobuchar? Anyway, give me a business prediction, then we got to go. I just wanted a quick fail, though. Right, okay, fail. The Fed cutting its interest rates, that's just so stupid. You know what? You have those moments that occasionally just sort of embody what America is about.

It's good and it's bad. With coronavirus, the majority of government actions around nations around the world is to figure out a way to manufacture and distribute free testing kits. Yes, and get people tested. Yep. Our reaction is to cut interest rates. Of course. That's because that's Trump because they're worried about dealing with Trump. Yep, I agree.

I like Jay Powell. I'd like to think he was not going to be bullied. He's clearly being bullied and slapped around by Trump. That was – where he cut interest rates. It's not going to work. I thought that – and the market saw right through that and was down 750 points that day. Anyways, my prediction, because we weren't making predictions, my prediction is I'm doubling down on this. Three days ago, I said that Twitter was going to come to an agreement with activist investors and give up board seats within 10 days or three days.

So I'm saying within the next seven days and within 30 days, now it's 27 days, the to activists and Jack Dorsey is going to find a lot of time to be a full-time CEO somewhere or do interesting things in Africa. Well, I wrote a column based on you, like a concept. I wrote a little bit more about it. Was it called Sexy? No. Was it called The Sexy Professor? No. I was like, let's focus on the money here.

This is a business. And also that, you know, I compared him because Elon Musk sent out a tweet. I actually read that. And I thought the tweet was interesting. And I was like, look, Elon was in a situation not unlike this a year ago. And he's just pushed his, he just willed himself out of it by putting his shoulder

down and sheer will, sheer bravado. Bravado, excuse me. And, you know, it's interesting that his stock, of course, went from $200 to $700, and then this one has been bumping along in lots of ways. So one of the things, I would agree with you. I think he's cornered by these people, and I have to say I got a lot of reaction to it by people who thought.

And then someone was like, well, who could be better than Jack? You know, the founder is everything crew. And again, I have a lot of regard for Jack Dorsey, but I made a list without even trying last night, like sitting, like I was, I was like sitting in the bed and I was like, Kevin Sistrom and Mike Kreiser, Adam Bain, Shelby Bonney, Shelby Bonney, sort of a dark horse kind of guy. He's run a lot of companies, Susan Wojcicki, Brad Smith, Chris Cox, Jeff Wiener, Sridhar Ram, uh,aswamy from Google. Like, I literally just thought of those at the top of my head. Wow, that's impressive. Lots. If you need

any help, I made a list. So you think it's quicker than that. And how does that happen? Because everyone was writing, can you just quickly explain this? Someone's like, they only have 4%. Why do they get to decide? Explain for the people why they get to decide. So right now they're contacting other shareholders institutions and saying, OK, we believe there should be a full time CEO. What do you think? And pretty much everybody, other shareholder, at least that I've spoken with, has said has nodded their head and say, yeah, if the stock had skyrocketed like like Tesla, we'd put up with this nonsense. But you can't be both in Africa and part-time and have the stock go nowhere. You just can't. That's a bad cocktail that investors don't like. And so these guys are going to basically file a proxy. They've gone to shareholders. And they're going to seek board

seats. Only three come due because Twitter has what's called a weapon of mass entrenchment. And that is they have a staggered board. The full board isn't up for election every year, only a certain number of the seats, in this case, three. They'll nominate four such that in case one drops out or one of the board members on Twitter steps down, they're kind of ready to go. But right now, what you have is shareholders lining up behind Elliott and then calling Twitter's board and saying, hey, just FYI, we've lined up behind this guy. And once Twitter's board realizes, and it's probably happened 48 hours ago, that they're going to lose at the annual meeting, that rather than go through that humiliation, they're going to go back and say, we'll give you one seat. And then Elliot's going to say no. And they'll say that Twitter will go two seats.

And then Elliot's going to say no. We want all three seats. And then they're going to call Jack and say, Jack, we have to give up seats. We're in a corner. And then Jack's going to say, I'm stepping down. This is how it all plays out. So what if they give up three seats and then Jack doesn't step down? Well, the board – oh, there's no way.

Jack will – the first board meeting will be a shit show. The first board meeting will be all three of these new guys. Still not enough, though, to vote them out, right? There could be three and we'll leave it. No, he's done. If they get three seats, if they get three seats, Jack Dorsey doesn't want to show up to a board meeting. If they get three seats, if they get three seats, Jack Dorsey doesn't want to show up to a board meeting. There's three new board members based on one thing, and that is that the CEO should leave.

He's not – I don't think he's that antagonistic or arrogant and all that. And then he's going to say, and by the way, we have to schedule the board meetings during the morning because I'm gone in afternoons. It's just – he's done. He's absolutely – this is dead man walking. How could he resist? If you were him, if you were advising him, how could he resist? I would create a sideshow. I don't know if you saw today, but they announced a new flea product, which is a big distraction.

I would try and turn this into something around. Which is a copy of something everyone else has been doing. I would say, oh, this is – I would try and plant stories that this is a Republican conspiracy. I wrote that. I would try and find people in the organization to say – I've even seen some Twitter volume that Jack was progressive and that this is – I would just try and create a series of sideshows and hope to God that the stock begins to skyrocket or something. Which it's not going to do right now in the middle of coronavirus, but go ahead.

There's no reason for it. I think this is over. I just think it's over. So is there anything he can do to hold on to his job from your perspective? Well, even, okay. So what if he came back? He could say I'm going to be there full time. He could say I'm going to be there full time. I'm sorry. You're right. But the analogy I use when I talk to investors or people about this is like imagine Twitter's next CEO, and you've rattled off a series of people. What if the CEO shut up for the interview and said – and interviewed and they said, you're amazing. Let's assume Jack Dorsey is amazing and you're incredible product development and you maybe were involved near the founding of the company as Adam Bain or Dick Costolo. And they said, OK, I want the job, but here's the thing.

I don't want to give up my CEO position at the job I have now. Would that be a deal killer? My guess is it would be. And then if they said, okay, we can get past that because you're just so amazing. And he said, well, okay, in addition to keeping my job. I get it. What if he says, I'm going to, I get that. He shouldn't be a half-time CEO.

I think I've said this dozens of times. So what could he do? If he said, I'm going to be full-time. I'm going to be full-time. I'm going to put my shoulder on. It's a very Elon Musk thing to do. That's what Elon did. Like, I'm going to be full-time. I'm going to be full-time. I'm going to put my shoulder on. It's a very Elon Musk thing to do. That's what Elon did. Like, I'm going to put my shoulder in.

I'm going to be 24-7. I'm going to get this thing out. I'm going to get this amazing product. Because I'll tell you what both of them share. Whatever you think of Jack Dorsey, he's created two amazing products. He is responsible for both of them. Elon Musk is an incredible product guy. Like, really visionary.

Genius. What if he says, that's what they share, and that's one of the reasons they like each other, I think, is the real deal in terms of product creation. So what if he says, I'm going to fix this. I'm going to focus on product. I'm going to just be here all the time. I'm going to be all over this. Like I'm just going to be all over this. Although he's not quite the intense person that Elon is.

Okay. So that would be one way that investors might go. I think once investors decide that they want him out, which they basically are deciding if they put an Elliott, I think it's going to be hard for them to backtrack. And the question then becomes, well, it took an activist and the threat of you being fired for you to decide to do this. And not only that, I don't think he's going to do it, Kerry, because 89% of his wealth is at his afternoon job. And it appears to me that Twitter is really a hobby I don't think he's going to do it, Kara, because 89% of his wealth is at his afternoon job. And it appears to me that Twitter is really a hobby

for him. It's golf. He loves it and he's passionate about it, but it's not where he makes his money. He makes his money at his afternoon job. He's got quite a bunch of executives over at the other company, though, I'll tell you that. They're great. I think they're going to start a bank. That thing is killing it. I think he does have executives who could be CEO

there, by the way. So the only path, and, I think he's, he does have executives who could be CEO there, by the way. So then, then the play, okay, so the only path, and I still think it's probably less than one. And he tweets it.

I will stay here full time if Elliot... I'm in full time and I've canceled my plans to go to Africa. Yes. I get it. I've heard.

I hear what you say. I've heard your... But why does he need that shit? He's worth several billion dollars. He's clearly passionate about crypto, which foots to Square, not to Twitter. He wants to go to Africa.

I just don't see him doing this. And then that would be real, what I would call loss of face. If his investors go, you know what, boss? It took you too long to figure this out. You're done. I'm saying that's the move for him. That's the move. That thing is your right.

You think that would save him? I think Elliot would have a hard press because he's very well respected. He says, I'm going to – he's not just – I think what's interesting is nobody of the Square Show holders are upset about this, right? Because it's doing nothing. Well, why though? It's because the stock's up. Yeah. It all comes down to the stock.

You can show up in a pink dress and a tinfoil on your head as long as you're – and then then say I'm going to put cure death or put a man on Mars or whatever it is, these crazy – or I'm going to build a clock that lasts 10,000 years. Go figure that. But that's fine. And I'm showing up at the Academy Awards and sending out dick pics. That's fine as long as your stock keeps going up. That's it. If your stock goes sideways and you're a part-time CEO, people actually start – people start calling irrational, unacceptable behavior irrational and unacceptable when your stock underperforms. Agreed. Okay. All right. So that's it. But I think that's the move. That's the gangster move he does, speaking of gangster moves. All right. So your prediction is that – I think he might do something left field. I got to tell you. All right. I'm going to go on that. I'm going to say –

You think? You're taking the other side of this? do something left field. I got to tell you. All right, I'm going to go on there. I'm going to say. You're taking the other side of this? I'm not taking the other side of it. I'm saying he could do something and I would love to see it.

I'd love to see him tweet it out. Like, because he's done that. Look, he did. He's capable of that. You know, like, screw these assholes. They're not taking away my company. That kind of thing. I'm just saying.

I'm just saying. And he's got a lot. I think he's the kind of guy. I think he goes, I think the new CEO first off needs to go on an all-lemon diet for seven days just to be like Jack. We're going to get out of here.

But he strikes me, a guy who goes on, I don't know, a guy who goes on silent treats to Myanmar strikes me as groovy and tone deaf at the same time. I know. I think he's probably going to say, I don't want to,

I love this company. I can tell you what I would do if think he's probably going to say, I love this company. I can tell you what I would do if I were advising him. I would say, I love this company. I'm proud of the progress we've made. I don't want to be a distraction. I've asked to stay on the board and help out here. I understand the concerns. I love Twitter more than I love clinging to power.

The last thing I'd say about that, he was kicked out last time, right? He was kicked out last time. Is that right? I didn't know that. Yes. Oh, wait, he's come back twice now, right? He was kicked out last time. Is that right? I didn't know that. Yes. Oh, wait. He's come back twice now, right? This would be the twice. He was kicked out once, and this would be a two kick out.

And I think that's a strong reason to not want to be kicked out. That is all I'm saying. There's history here. So we'll see. And he came back victorious kind of thing. In any case, he's a very – look, whatever you think of Jack Dorsey, he's the real deal. He should start a podcast. That's what he should do.

A meditation podcast. Anyway, and then we'll steal his information and then use it for nefarious purposes. Perfect. All right. Before we go, one of our listeners asked, we bring back our moments of optimism. Do you have a piece of happiness you'd like to share in these dark times, Scott, very briefly, please? A piece of happiness? Besides our fantastic relationship.

I think that as we're thinking about risks, I think life is a function of risks and relationships. And when I think about getting on planes and I think about the places I am most, have been most scared, I'm an erotic person. It's all about trying to get home to see the people I love. And those are enormous risks we're taking. And I think it's, if you can think about the risks you take to get home, I don't know about other people,

but I travel a lot and I find that my heart swells as I'm headed home. Whenever I get on that last plane home, and it's just worth so much risk to be around people you love and cement those relationships because it is going fast and that's what it's all about. So the one risk always worth taking is getting home to your family, even if it means being in a steel tube with recirculated air. Oh my goodness. That is lovely. I was going to say that too. I got home yesterday. I actually, Eric Anderson was with me. I got home yesterday and I walked upstairs and my new child was sleeping. My baby was sleeping. And she woke up and looked up at me and smiled the best smile.

It was a wonderful moment. It was like – and she recognized me. That was great because I was gone several – I was gone a week and a half. So that was nice that she recognized me, which I was worried about that possibility that that's not happening. But it was a lovely moment. You're right, Scott. You know what? We are of one mind on this that not happening, but it was lovely. You're right, Scott, you, you know what?

We are of one mind on this issue. Anyway, we love our families anyway. And we also love your questions. If you have a question about a story you're hearing in the news, email us at pivot at voxmedia.com to be featured on the show. And Scott, make the big announcement. What are we,

what are we starting next week? Scott, I am literally flummoxed. I don't know what you're talking about. We are starting a YouTube channel. So you're... I am literally flummoxed. I don't know what you're talking about. It's on the script. We are starting a YouTube channel, so you're going to see Scott... What a thrill!

What a thrill! I am telling you, this is something you push for. Faces for radio on YouTube. No, we're going to... You wanted this. Give me a break.

It was your idea, and we're... I'm wearing midriff. I'm wearing midriff for the first episode. We are actualizing your idea. Check us out at youtube.com

slash pivot. And listen, think of ideas. Do people do the hot chicken eating with our guests? What do you want us to do? Send us something on Twitter. What is the weird thing you want us to do with every week? I am so wearing a thong.

You're not wearing a thong. It's time. It's time. It is so time. It is so not time for your thong. It's so time. It's time for the world to see my back fat. It's time.

It's time. You want to wear wigs. I heard you wanted to wear wigs. Oh, that's a given. No, that is such a given. Oh my God. Imagine, imagine like I'm like Brad Pitt. I like to take my shirt off. Just imagine minus all the good looks, but it is so Brad Pitt on YouTube. I'm going to get high and take off my shirt a lot. All right. I think Chipotle has to be there. I would rather not see Cialis. Those are table stakes. You're talking A, B, and C. We got to talk about R and S. None the life in living color will be brought to you. Scott Galloway and Kara Swisher. We are sometime, I think we're in the same place too. That's even better. Next week.

What a thrill. It's going to be a thrill. By the way, it's out by Southwest just for a public health service announcement. And to reduce fear, I think you and I should have Anand and AOC on stage, and everyone should make out with the other, just for public health reasons. We have an obligation to do this, Kara. This is not a correct workplace discussion to be having. Let me just say that.

Oh, my gosh. Those two are so scorching hot. YouTube.com slash pivot. Scott, read us out on the credits. See us next week in Living Color. Cara and Scott, you love our voices. You love us on the show. Now you get to see us. Scott, credits please. Today's producer is Rebecca Sinanis. Our executive producer is Erica Anderson. Special thanks to Drew Burrows and Rebecca Castro. If you like what you heard, please download the podcast, send us an email, write a review. Love your family. This is what it's all about. This is finite. This is finite. It's all about the depth and meaning of your

relationships. And no one's going to love you the way people unfortunately stuck with you. Whose family? People that otherwise wouldn't hang out with you. Love those people and love them back. That's the big unlock. We'll see you next week for a breakdown of all things tech and business. I just don't get it. Just wish someone could do the research on it. Can we figure this out?

Hey, y'all. I'm John Blenhill, and I'm hosting a new podcast at Vox called Explain It To Me. Here's how it works. You call our hotline with questions you can't quite answer on your own. We'll investigate and call you back to tell you what we found. We'll bring you the answers you need every Wednesday starting September 18th. So follow Explain It to Me, presented by Klaviyo. Do you feel like your leads never lead anywhere?

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