Pivot - "Friends of Pivot" breakdown the big stories of the decade

Episode Date: December 27, 2019

Kara and Scott look back at the 2010s and the biggest stories of the decade with the help of some friends. With cameos from Colorado Senator Michael Bennett, Girls Who Code Founder/CEO Reshma Saujani, and Former HBO CEO/Chairman Richard Plepler, they break down the moments in tech, leadership, politics and media that defined the time. Plus Kara and Scott reflect on some of their own personal growth over the past ten years -- with their parents. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Cara Swisher. And I'm Scott Galloway. Capping off the decade. That's right. That's right. I'm Anderson Cooper, minus the hair, the good looks, and the famous mother.

But I'm here, and you're my Kathy Griffin, Cara. What were you doing 10 years ago, Scott, without me? I was recovering from the recession. I'd just been run over. I had a two-year-old son at home, and I was starting to get my act together professionally. I had spent 10 years kind of enjoying a wonderful midlife crisis, partying in New York. And then my son had the poor judgment to come rotating out of my girlfriend, and shit got real, and I got back to work. So 10 years ago, I started getting back to work. Oh, wow.

You know, I was working for Rupert Murdoch 10 years ago. Really? Yeah, I worked at All Things D. Were you drafted off of Walt Mossberg's coattails? Yes, where I did that, but then I surpassed the master. Here we go. No, he was great. No, he was great.

He was great. I was doing great. I had a nice—2010 was a good time. I had small children. My kids were in—were small, were smaller. And I'm just looking at some pictures. But we had a really good—we were running all things. It was going great at the time, and we were doing big deal things there.

And it was—it had sort of just reached its sort of biggest, like many years of things. So it was a good time. Oh, and I'd started professionally. I just started, I just founded L2. I was, I was obviously teaching. And then I thought, so wait, back to me, I published a piece of research where I took 1200 data points to analyze a brand's digital footprint. And I put the research out and ranking a hundred companies and 40 of the companies called me and said, who are you and why are you doing this? And I went to NYU and said, I'll give you stock if you give me the IP, and that was the birth of L2. That was 2010. Wow. Wow. 10 years ago today, to this year, not today, but this year, was when we did the famous Mark Zuckerberg sweating interview, Walt and I did. That was 10 years ago? That was 10

years ago, in June of 2010. And also, we did a great Steve Jobs interview. He was quite in good health then. Or in relative, not great health. He was been sick, but he was, he had a little bit of a rebound. But we did one of the most amazing interviews before he died. And then, but yeah, we interviewed the Mark Zuckerberg's wedding video. Yeah. Wow. And I was, let me see, I'm 43 now, so I was 33 then. Yeah, 33. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, I'm really old. I was not that young. In any case, we're going through the, what are you going to do for this a decade? What's your decade plan? For the next decade? Yeah. I just want to surround myself with people that love me a great deal and that know they're loved by me and enjoy the salad days, Kara.

What else? That's very nice. That's a lovely thing. I'm going to get bigger and enjoy the salad days, Kara. What else? That's very nice. That's a lovely thing. I'm going to get bigger and better. That's my plan. But what is your lesson of the past 10 years? Do you have any lessons, like reflections? Well, I mean, I'm feeling a little bit hungover, so I'm a little bit melancholy, but my lessons from, and you didn't do the math, I'm actually 55 now. From 45 to 55, for me, it was a time of recognizing or waking up at the beginning of my 40s and realizing I didn't have a lot of deep, meaningful relationships, that I was very selfish and I've started investing in those relationships. So I come out of the last 10 years with a lot. And I just want to, for me, the last 10 years, and Kara, I don't know if you know this, I wrote a book about this, but I recognize that if I continue to be an island and be just a male that was living-

I know your book. My children read it. I know that. If I was going to continue to be a... I mean, I was literally kind of the beginning of the decade living alone in Manhattan, leaving my apartment to go to the ready teller, get food or sex, living like a caveman. And then I decided, this is awesome, and I'm good at it. But if I continue this, all the science says I'm going to die in my 60s because men who live alone. And so I started investing in relationships, and it was the smartest thing I've ever done. Good for you. You sound like a lesbian, which is why I like you so much. Do I?

Yes, you do. You really do. You're literally, I mean, you're my- I'm the worst lesbian. I'm literally the worst lesbian of all time. I don't like sports. I have only two exposures to lesbian culture. You and Cinemax. Other than that, I have absolutely. You know what?

I knew you would have to make a tasteless remark about lesbian porn. Everything. Okay, listen. Everything I've learned about lesbians I've learned from you. Stop. I'm not letting you go down that lesbian porn avenue. It's not happening today. Anyway, because at the end of the decade, because a lot of people are doing this, we're going to do things a little differently.

We're obviously going to go break down a few big stories of the past 10 years. And some of them, let's bring in a few friends of Pivot. We've got some good people talking to us, people we like and or admire to hear what they were thinking about the defying moments. I haven't heard this yet. No, I haven't. Rebecca went out and got them. Rebecca did an amazing job. So shall we get started and close this decade down?

We're done with the 10s. We're going into the 20s, my friend. Let's drop the mic. The roaring 20s. And you know how that ended. Not so well. All right. Big decade breakdown.

Let's get into it. Number one, Fang. This was a huge decade for big tech. It was very big in 2010, but not as big as it is now. It's a cliche, but really a bit of a reckoning for Silicon Valley toward the end. And you, obviously, Scott, published a book called The Four. And you, did you coin the term fang? A key moment of the decade. Did you? No, but you said the four. You were like, that's how I met you. That's when I met you. Did you coin this term fang or not? No, I didn't. I coined the term the four.

But no, I didn't coin the term fang. That's not me. Thank you, though. Anyway, what do you think about this big tech? I mean, I think this has been the big story. Yeah, I do think. Well, look, first off, they've gone from $1 trillion in value to $4 trillion, which is the GDP of, I think, Spain. Incredible prosperity, incredible potential. We spent the first six or seven years arguing over which one of their leaders was going to run for president. And they've been incredible vessels for the transfer of wealth from the rest of the world to the US. But there's a dark side. When I started, you mentioned before, when I started writing that book, it was a love letter. I was-

Yeah, you did. People don't remember this, but I used to literally be the biggest evangelist in the world for these firms. I thought they were just incredible. And by the way, they say, you were talking, you know, kind of decade in review, asked me what I was doing in 2008. I literally got run over by the recession. And I know you're not supposed to talk about money because rich people create this dictum or this gestalt where you're not supposed to talk about money such that they can pretend

that they're just following their passion. It's like the Godfather said, only rich people tell you not to talk about money. But I had, at the end of the recession, I got run over. I called my accountant. I said, how much money do I have? Because at one time, when I was much younger, I had what felt like a lot of money. It wasn't a lot of money for where I was in my life and the success I thought I'd achieved. And I took all of that money and I put it into two stocks. I put it into Amazon and Apple. And those companies since then have gone up, I don't know, between seven and 12 fold. So I want to be clear, big tech economically saved my ass. And I started writing a book about them

because I was so impressed with them. And by the end of the book, after really understanding them, the book, as you know, turned into a cautionary tale. And ever since then, I just get more and more disturbed. But I am absolutely biting the hand that not only fed me, but saved my ass. There's been incredible economic prosperity, but we, you know, the question is, have we opted for economic prosperity at the expense of income inequality, at the, you know, at the risk of the weaponization of our democracy? Have we lost all empathy? Are we dividing into different cohorts? Have we turned our backs on teen depression because of economic prosperity? Have we been overwhelmed by private power where the government is no longer a countervailing force, but a co-conspirator, which is a key step to fascism? There is a lot to be concerned about

here. Yeah, it's been a tough day. It's been a big shift. You know, people don't realize this, but Uber didn't get found until 2009 and Airbnb 2008. And, you know, Facebook was, when I did that interview, he wasn't huge. Like, it wasn't like he wasn't, he was sort of obviously up and coming, but they weren't dominant in the way they were.

And obviously Steve Jobs was still living. You know, he didn't die until 2011. But, you know, there was a whole different kind of internet. It was sort of in the, it was sort of a hopeful time. It certainly was. It absolutely was. And we didn't see the seeds of what was coming in the middle of the Obama administration. So it was sort of, it's sort of fascinating to think about how quickly that had changed.

You were quite, that book, The Four, it was a love letter, you're right. That's exactly right. Which is kind of interesting. And I do think what will be interesting to see in this next decade of what's going to happen with these companies and what, will they continue to do this? Do they understand the damage they've done?

Are they going to be, where is the room for the safe internet, the people who are going to create the good internet and the possibilities? And I think that's, I have some hopefulness about that. It's like, who is going to do that? And I do have some hopefulness that someone is going to figure out ways to remake some of these things so it's not just a continued sort of, you know, transfer from everybody to them.

And I think that would be a great thing to have happen. The only one that kind of looks like it right now, it'll probably be someone new, but I've come full circle on this, is I think the only one that sort of, sort of feels a little bit like that is your guy, Evan Spiegel at Snap. And I'm glad that they're doing so well.

And one-to-one communication is much healthier than this sort of group performative. And you don't feel like you're speaking to someone, so you tend to be much meaner, and trolls can, bad actors can weaponize it. It feels like, it'll be interesting. Obviously, the internet was the medium of the last 10 years. I wonder what will, you're right, what will be the medium of the next 10 years, and what impact will it have?

Or does it just continue, do we continue to, more and more power, and more and more of the spoils continue to just get concentrated? He's an interesting character. I'm going to do, I just talked to them this morning, actually. I'm doing something for them at CES.

And then he's coming to code this year. So it's going to be a really interesting, I agree with you. He's a really interesting character. I'm looking forward to talking to him about that.

That's why I invited him because I want to talk about where it goes. Instead of just bellyaching about the shit that Facebook's pulled on him, I want to talk about where things are going and where the safe internet is. So it's one of my things I want to talk about a lot in the next decade. It's like,

what are we going to make from this mess? And what can all the players start to think about? So anyway, big tech. Big tech is the big story. And realizing how much has changed in just a very short 10 years. Number two, obviously politics. This has been a pretty big decade for politics and presidents. We've had two very different presidents in the past 10 years, Barack Obama and Donald Trump. Couldn't be like polar opposites. There's probably too much to dig in here. But we reached out to Scott's friend and someone I admire very much, Senator Michael Bennett of Colorado. He is one of the candidates for president and has been a senator for the past decade. So we asked about what he thinks about the biggest moment in policy this decade.

When we look back at the past decade, I'd say that a moment that stands out as one of the most important to me is the failure of Congress to pass comprehensive immigration reform. I was part of the gang of eight that wrote the bill in 2013. And its ultimate failure in the House of Representatives was emblematic of a crisis in our democracy. And in many ways, that set the stage for Donald Trump. It set the stage for Donald Trump's anti-immigrant screeds that he started his campaign with and the way that he's governed our country? Well, I'd agree with him. I would agree with him. And I think he, it wasn't just the immigration reform.

It was taking, using tech to really get this message out in a way. He had started it with the Central Park Five. You know, he had a history of doing this, but he really did sort of amp it up on using digital means to do this and including some stuff that, you know, breaking people apart over this issue. It was a big element in the Russian disinformation campaigns. What do you think, Scott? Well, just, I mean, I'm very, as you know, I'm very impressed and fond of Senator Bennett. The way I met him was his office reached out to me and said the senator would like you to come down and talk to him a little bit about big tech and its impact on our society.

And I ended up spending a couple hours with him. And he was so fascinated with the notion of income inequality as it relates to big tech. And he was taking notes. And you could tell this is a guy. You just meet him. And he, I don't want to say restored my faith in government, but he made me a lot more optimistic that you could just tell this guy was very committed to helping others that had been, had really been hurt by income inequality. You know, school superintendent, tremendous empathy. You've noted that his demographic and his style are, the timing could not be worse for him. Sort of a

substantive, quiet, you know, he's not loud, he's not dramatic. His best tweet when he was, you know, and he's still running for president, or if the Democratic nomination was, elect me president, I promise you won't have to think of me every day. I'll just handle the North Koreans. But it's, I think it's important for, at least what I found, is when you get to know a lot of our elected representatives, it does, I think it does, when you don't see it filtered through the lens of Fox or through an impeachment trial, it does in many ways restore your faith in government. Me too, I agree.

And he's a very impressive, decent man and exactly who we would want representing us. But yeah, I also believe, quite frankly, that it's shown a lot. My senior senator here, Marco Rubio, basically, in my opinion, cut and run from immigration reform because he was pandering to his far-right constituents. He's a panderer. We had an opportunity to basically,

the fact that we didn't pass that regulation as Senator Bennett led to a lot of very divisive things. And we don't like to acknowledge it, but the notion that somehow we woke up one day and there were 11 million undocumented workers here, we let them in because they're an incredibly flexible, agile workforce that we bring in to farm our produce, take care of our seniors, help us in the service industry. And the notion that somehow these people came over without our knowing.

And by the way, it's been incredibly economic beneficial for us. And then all of a sudden, we're like, okay, let's demonize them now. It's been very damning. It is. I think Senator Bennett is correct, and I agree with you. He's incredibly erudite. He's just really impressive. I also went and visited him.

And just one of these, it does restore your faith in people when you talk to someone like that. He's a very good public servant. He's a very good public servant. He's a very fine public servant. But what do you think the biggest story is politically? I think it is, you know, related. Trump.

Trump is the biggest political story of the decade. He just is, 100%. It's Trump. Trump signifies, and some people would say it's right, but Trump signifies this undercurrent of anger and also, quite frankly,

of bigotry and tribal nature that I think everybody thought had gone away and is still there. And, you know, there's just no getting around it. The election of Trump, in my view, is the earthquake, the tremor, the seismic event, whatever you want to call it, of the decade. Yeah, it's interesting to think about that sort of Barack Obama began the decade, and he almost feels zeroed out in a lot of ways. He isn't zeroed out, obviously. It's a historic presidency. But, you know, it's just really interesting how forgotten that is, like in comparison of how outsized Trump's role has been.

And, you know, again, it's a role that's been emphasized by tech. Again, he's used tech really strongly. He's used, obviously, not just Twitter and his outbursts and exclamation points and all-caps letters on Twitter, but the Russian disinformation, the uses of disinformation to manipulate politics, the political ads. You know what I mean? It's all been part and parcel to his success. And a reality show television part of our world that we so love in this country. It's all, you know, sort of been echoed and re-echoed and echoed. It's been critical to his success. Yeah, and what will be interesting about moving into the next decade that will be so critical, we've had moments like this. But immunities have always kicked in, whether it's deciding to enter Europe during World War II after tremendous damage of World War I, deciding to put our manufacturing base into production, the embrace of civil rights, globalization.

I mean, there's just been so many seminal sort of immunities that have kicked in to overcome what have been tremendous threats to our society. to overcome what have been tremendous threats to our society. What will be interesting is if in the next couple years or just a year, if immunities begin to kick in against what is some fairly unhealthy and threatening things to our democracy, whether it's us or tech being weaponized by bad actors out of Russia or this general move towards autocracy as opposed to democracy. out of Russia or this general move towards autocracy as opposed to democracy. Everyone accuses, you know, the big story on the left or the big story that Trump has been able to promote with his 60 million followers on Twitter is that somehow the far left or that we're prone to being socialists. And I think the bigger story is how the right has become much more prone to fascism.

And the notion that fascism at its core is extreme nationalism, refusal to condone violence and the demonization of immigrants. I mean, if there was ever a playbook for fascism playing out right now, it would have President Trump on the cover. So I'm hopeful that as has happened throughout our history, that when we enter these dark times, that the immunities begin to kick in. So I'm waiting on the immunities, Kara. I hope it started yesterday. I don't know. I think tech does emphasize this. It emphasizes this in a way that,

but television did in a lot of ways with Joe McCarthy as he became drunker and more sweaty. It was sort of like, ew, that's not us, right? Like, I know it sounds dumb, but it's the same thing with Nixon. It's just, when is it going to help

make it clear that this is not who we are? But we are this way. That's the thing. I hate when people say this is not who we are. I'm like, this is not who we are. But we are this way. That's the thing. I hate when people say this is not who we are. I'm like, it's precisely who we are. Unfortunately, it is. We're also other things. We're also good.

And we pulled back from Joe McCarthy. You know, one of the stories that really affected me this week, I think it was in the Washington Post, it was about the Tulsa massacre, as they sometimes call it, the race riot. That's not what it was. That, you know, they're using all this technology to find graves of mass graves there over this, this just was essentially murders of white people to this incredibly thriving black community in Tulsa called Greenwood. And one of the things, I just was like reminded, I'm like, we're just awful as a people. We're just awful.

And I was sort of fascinated by the debate that's going on about it. people were just awful. And I was sort of fascinated by the debate that's going on about it. And, you know, here's something, like tech is not part of this, but it's being used to sort of resurrect something we should remember. And the fact that I didn't know more about it sort of angered myself. I was like, I should know about these things. And hopefully we can sort of start to unearth some of these qualities we have that we have to look at really hard. So we'll see. We'll see. But you're right, Paul, But Trump is unfortunately the main politics thing. When we get back after this, we're going to do more of the top decade breakdown, including women in diversity and leadership, streaming wars, and more. Fox Creative.

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Did you have hair at the beginning of the decade? No, I shaved my head in my early 30s so I could raise money for my startups at a higher valuation. I actually have hair. I had a ponytail in graduate school. By the way, if you— I need a picture of that. You need to put that on the internet.

We need to see that picture. Was it a ponytail with a comb over or just like a full head of hair? It was like a bad novelty act at a Chippendales they would send out to like cool the girls down. They'd be like, all right, they're out of control. Send out Galloway with a ponytail to cool them down. Wait, did you have a bald head and a ponytail? Because that's a look. Oh, no.

And with a Corvette. I was pathetic, but I wasn't fucking ridiculous. You weren't Gallagher. You didn't go Gallagher. No, I had an actual—I had a lot of hair. My hair, believe it or not, granted it was a low bar, but my hair used to be my best feature. I want to see a picture. Send, put a picture on the Internet.

Okay, next breakdown, number three, women in diversity and leadership. Huge decade for women. There was the Women's March on Washington and the Me Too movement. And there's more women in Congress than ever before. All Democrats, pretty much. So I think all Democrats. So we reached out to a friend of Pivot, Reshma Sojani, who is a founder and CEO of Girls Who Code, to talk about how women fared in tech and leadership over the last decade. I think when we look back at this decade, we're going to realize that this was the moment that we had a reckoning with technology and that women rose up. Look, I mean, I think we're at a tipping point, right? Women aren't putting up with bullshit anymore. All you need to do is look at the walkouts and

the protests from the past year, many that are inspired by Me Too, and the fact that you have girls standing up every single day being changemakers. I'm hopeful that women and girls are going to rise up and they'm hopeful that women and girls are going to rise up and they're going to lead and they're going to push tech companies to be better. They're going to push tech companies to go back to reading their mission statements and to really reconciling the fact that right now they are out of touch with their values. Yeah. I think Reshma is more positive than I am about this. I mean, there's a lot of things that happened.

There was, you know, Elizabeth Holmes got a lot of attention. Obviously, Sheryl Sandberg, who had started the decade in 2012, she became the eighth member and the first woman on the Facebook board of directors, which took her a while. It was long after she joined the company. And, you know, then you had the Google walkouts over these issues. You had the Me Too movement, but then you had sort of a mess at Yahoo with Marissa Mayer and not very many women CEOs and declining numbers of women in leadership positions at tech companies and not the case at media companies. I think there's more women in charge there. But what do you make of

this? Well, I've always thought that as someone who was raised by a single mother, so when my parents got divorced, they were what I would call fairly equivalent on a balanced scorecard professionally. My mom was more intelligent, but my dad was more charismatic. But they both had been pulled out of school in the eighth grade, immigrated to America. And my dad went on to be national sales manager of O.M. Scott's and make a very good living. And my mom went on to be a secretary. And when youM. Scott's and make a very good living. And my mom went on to be a secretary. And when you're in the 70s and you're a single mother with a kid, you could either be a travel agent, a real estate agent, or a secretary. And I've always felt that the ism or the greatest discrimination in our society, and I saw this firsthand, was sexism.

I still think women have it harder than almost any cohort and, uh, other cohorts and other forms of discrimination get a lot of attention as they should. But I think as we stand here and now, I still think that it's the thing we, that creates the most, um, you know, the bottom line is when they give money, they've done experiments. When they give money to the men, the, the, the brothel and the bars thrive. And when they give money to women, the kids get bigger and fatter, right? And that the best thing we can do in society, in my opinion, globally, and I believe with Christopher Hitchens on this, is to fully fund Planned Parenthood and make sure that women always have access to safe family planning and, two, to economically liberate women. That that is still the means, the fastest blue line path to a better world.

It's 100%. And the numbers keep decreasing. You know, I think there will be some reckoning. You know, I'm really looking forward to this Google investigation and how they handled issues around women. I think a lot's going to come out about that, hopefully, and how the managers who were so fetid did not handle these issues very well. And it's something I do want to talk about Sundar Pichai, who was not running the company during this decade, but now is, or part of the decade he's been running it,

and has tried to sort of clean it up. But at the same time, you know, you worry about something like the Me Too movement in tech or media or wherever it is just losing its steam, you know, and that's my worry. And then not having enough women, like, you can criticize Sheryl Sandberg or Marissa Mayer or Elizabeth Holmes or whoever, it's just there's not enough women so that you can, some can succeed and some can't. Like, so much is riding on these women who are fallible human beings, essentially.

Well, I would, and just such that I, you know, I don't leave this segment without getting a ton of hate on Twitter. And just such that I don't leave this segment without getting a ton of hate on Twitter, I would argue that people will incorrectly look at the Me Too movement as a seminal moment in terms of progress for women. I worry that the Me Too movement has entered a phase where we're now taking all agency and responsibility away from women, and we're starting to treat a lot of these situations as if the women are children and that they have no accountability or responsibility. her children and that they have no accountability or responsibility. And I worry that over time, that people will look back on it and think that it was not as beneficial to women as they'd originally thought. I think the moment— I don't agree with you. I couldn't—telling stories is so critical. I get it. The ability to tell stories is not taking away agency. It's telling stories. And it's not that they—that there aren't going to be, like, edge situations and things like that, but the ability to talk about your experience in the workplace, which every woman has. They have 10 episodes, and some of them are minor, like stupid remarks.

Right? Like, I guess we can let that go. It should stop, but I guess we can let it go. I'm not suggesting we let it go. And I think you're right, and I think it was overdue, and it's a healthy conversation. It needed to happen. I worry in certain instances that the media depicts any sexual situation similar to how we would treat any sexual situation with a child, that whoever's involved is guilty because children rightfully have no agency, and they should never be in that situation.

And I feel like in some instances, the way the media portrays some of these situations is as if the women have absolutely no agency. And I wonder if that is good or if there is a negative part of it. But let me go on to where I think the more kind of underreported victory, if you will, or one of the most important things as it relates to female leadership, and that is what is the one country that really, one developed country that really never had a recession? It's a trivia question. You know what country that was? I don't know. Was it Finland now?

Because that's like, I'm so thrilled it's being run by a woman. Donka, baby. It was Germany. Germany has been the economic engine of Europe, Germany, and it's for a few reasons. One, manufacturing. And I never used to buy into the notion of how important manufacturing was. But the bottom line is, if you look at innovation, when you outsource manufacturing and making things, you do lose a lot of innovation. Two, they've always had a lot of respect and appreciation

for the dignity of work, and boards are mandated, boards of directors are mandated that have representation from labor. They really value the middle class there. And three, I think they've had some of the most competent leadership of the 20th century in the form of Angela Merkel. think they've had some of the most competent leadership of the 20th century in the form of Angela Merkel. And I think she's just an incredibly thoughtful, humble leader who's all about doing what's right for the German people, even if it means she's not famous. I think she is an inspiration. And I think that's a moment we will talk about in 50 years as it relates to female leadership that doesn't get the attention it deserves. I think she will go down as one of the more important leaders of the last 50 years.

But I do think, I think the telling stories, I think Susan Fowler's essay and also Ellen Pau really did, telling their stories, they were not, they had agency. They had plenty of agency. And it led to like Travis's being pushed out. I think that, among other things, it sort of led to, like, a number of stories about the behaviors there. And so we'll see. It's just – at some point, I think people are on notice, and that's the best part. 100%. And even if they're a little scared for now, good. Good.

They should be scared. And so that's my feeling is that telling stories is literally the most powerful thing you can do. And then you can't say you didn't know. Like, that's, to me, the most important part of this. You cannot say you didn't know. There was a great story about something that was going on on the set of The Affair. A Hollywood reporter, Kim Masters, did it. Again, it was great.

It was well done, I thought. Read that. It was a really interesting question, and I think it's how people perceive things in talking about sex. Anyway, we'll see. We'll see where it goes. I don't perceive big executives and women executives in charge of these tech companies anytime soon. I don't see it at all. And again, in this story that Bloomberg Businessweek had about the Vision Fund. It's an all-male management team.

All male. All dudes. Well done, Nassau. Anyway, number four, streaming wars and content. Obviously, over the past decade, a lot has changed in the way we consume media. And the story we're definitely watching in the decade ahead. So we got Richard Plepler, my favorite media local. You love Richard.

I love him. He's so elegant. The former chairman and CEO of HBO on what his defining moment of media was in the past decade. I think when you're talking about some of the transcendent moments in American culture over the last decade, you'd have to begin in April of 2011 with the airing of Game of Thrones, which of course became something of a cultural phenomenon. Nobody knew that Thrones was going to be Thrones. And it is, it's, listen, it's one of the grand intangibles when something breaks through like that. And I think anybody who says to you that they either knew that that was going to happen or they had an instinct that something before it hit the cultural nerve was going to hit the cultural nerve, I think they're lying to you. All right.

Richard, by the way, has been reporting he's starting his own production company and talks with Apple. It's going to happen. You know, he's going to be making more. And I would be remiss in not saying that he also did Sopranos. So, you know, this guy has been sort of at the, has sort of really put a lot of stuff. And I think the thing he's talking about is coalescing around good TV. The TV got so good in the past decade. I think TV used to be the idiot box. Now it's the intelligent box, essentially. So what do you think is the defining moment in these media wars? I believe that defining our form of our

generation in 100 years, when they look back, it won't be Damien Hirst. It won't be, I don't know, the music that's coming out. Although 80s music makes a run for it because it is genius, Kara, but the defining art form is television. There's more risk-taking. There's more resources. TV used to be, you know, the best show on TV used to be Cheers or MASH. And now every night there's shows on that are much better, mostly because of resources. TV used to be you know the best show on TV used to be Cheers or MASH and now every night

there's shows on that are much better mostly because of resources but I think television is you know we tend to mock it and unfortunately it's ruined

but less ruined by this you know this tax called advertising but I would argue that probably House of Cards

was a more seminal moment because I think Netflix I I mean, the bottom line is Netflix ate HBO. And there was a lot of reason that HBO probably couldn't be Netflix because they had investors who demanded profits. But I would argue probably the more seminal moment was when Netflix went into original scripted television with House of Cards. Look, the streaming wars, we started the world where HBO was and TV was getting, I think, a quarter of the budget. It's now been featured. I mean, just as FedEx and fulfillment has become a feature of a business that can monetize it through Prime, media is becoming a feature of businesses that will monetize their programming through Mandalorian dolls, theme parks, paper towels, or phones or iPhones. So the media industry started the decade with tremendous innovation, and now it is,

I don't even know how to describe it. It's being featured, if you will, or this notion that it's becoming a feature, not a product, that's a standalone profitable business in and among itself. And the next few years are going to be really crazy. But television, the defining art form, House of Cards, Netflix, you know, Reed Hastings was just kind of the, you know, the tech genius. I know he gets talked about a lot, but he doesn't get the same amount of oxygen as these other guys. Because again, here's the thing, one of the things that media has taught me at Distinctive Big Tech and Netflix, or the contrast I take away from it, is that social media, if you will, is nicotine. And that is, it's addictive and it's not good for you, but it doesn't necessarily, or we don't think, it gives you cancer. It's the advertising, which is the tobacco, that gives you all the carcinogens and the cancer. And the reason why Netflix, which is just as important

or as penetrated or arguably has as much influence over people as a Facebook or a Twitter, the reason why it hasn't been weaponized, the reason why it isn't creating the type of damage is that it doesn't have advertising. So for me, Netflix kind of shows that, okay, social media is the nicotine, but the real cancer of these business models and something we should look at is the advertising. Yep. Yeah, 100%. So I will say, I'm going to give it to Richard because, look, they had done The Sopranos. They had started with Game of Thrones much earlier.

House of Cards did not come out until 2013. I think Netflix was taking from the HBO playbook very beautifully. 100%. And so I think the idea that television could be that good, you know, was something that I think HBO definitely pioneered completely. And then they still do Succession. They still managed to hit it out of the park. And managed to do it on a fraction of the budget. They spent $50 or $70 million per Emmy, and Amazon Prime has to spend $350 million, and Netflix spent like $200 million.

Netflix meant like $200 million. The culture, the case studies that will be written by HBO or about HBO, I think will be more about how do you create a culture that is that productive, that is able to produce such incredible quality on what is literally a fraction of the budget of the other players. And if I were any media company, it's like if you're any basketball team, you watch where Michael Jordan goes. I would be watching where Richard goes. He's going to Apple. He's going to do Apple.he's an independent guy. I think he's been working for people for his whole life. I met him when he was a PR guy, if you can believe it, at Time Warner, at HBO, actually. And he worked for Jeff Bukas, which was interesting. But I have to tell you,

I just think that wherever he goes, he's going to—obviously, it's been rumored, and he's going to Apple. He thinks he's going to do something. He's going to think that wherever he goes, he's going to, obviously, it's been rumored and he's going to Apple. He thinks he's going to do something. He's going to make stuff. You know, he's going to make stuff. And I think that's what's really important about executives like him. That's why I like him so much. He makes stuff, and the stuff he makes is good. Like, it's a pleasure to talk to someone who makes stuff.

I do think HBO missed a lot of the tech turns, 100%. I don't know if he could have done it. They certainly couldn't have done it within Time Warner the way they were. But they definitely missed the tech turns. But in terms of ushering in this, like, you wouldn't have Maisel, you wouldn't have House of Cards, you wouldn't have, you know, every

single one of those streaming networks is due to what HBO started many years ago when it was called Homebox Office, when it started with just movies. And so, I think they didn't, you know, a lot of companies, they don't reap the benefit of what they did, you know, in a lot of ways. And I think they're one of them. So anyway, but it's going to be an interesting time of who's going to win.

Obviously, Disney's now here and doing a really good job. My kids are watching Disney Plus a lot now, which is interesting. And they've also moved to Apple Music from Spotify. So it'll be interesting to see if the big guys can come back and reclaim their crowns in this area. Yeah, 100% it will be. The media has become, whether it's a quote-unquote company masquerading as a platform that's really a media company, media, and as you've said, propaganda, has become this, it's become even more powerful and more important. And we never realized that it could be weaponized to this extent. But it's going to be, it's just almost sort of impossible to figure out where it goes from here. But it's been a, look, it's been a

great, it's been a great 10 years for what I'll call creativity around media. And at the same time, we've gotten all this shitty reality television, which is, of course, brought us to Donald Trump. Anyway, so win and fail of the decade, Scott. If you had to pick, could you pick one big win and one big fail of the decade as it pertains to tech and business?

I will go first if you like. Yeah, I would like you to go first. I'm going to give it to Apple for, you know, Steve Jobs died in 2011. And I think they've done okay. Like, they've done, like, everyone was sort of, like, saying, oh, now Apple was going to die with him. And I think they've done a really interesting job. Now, people could quibble with stuff, but they've really grown in certain ways.

They haven't been crazy creative in the way you think of them, but I think they've really done it. I think Tim Cook's done a very nice job of running that company. And it's, you know, its valuation is huge. It's gone up, I think, 70% this year or something like that. And the big fail, even though it's a financial success, has to be Facebook to me and the awful turn it's taken and inability to really recognize its need to be responsible. I hope it does. I have great hopes. Just like Nancy Pelosi said about Donald Trump, I pray for Mark Zuckerberg that he will begin to turn this company to a more dulcet direction for our society. Thank you. Wow. So just as James Carvell said in the great movie Old School, when Will Ferrell provided a response to a debate question and James Carvell responded,

that was perfect. I think he nailed it. I think Apple's renaissance, I think all this notion that Steve Jobs is a Jesus figure and no one could run the company, but Jobs and then this, you know, the first openly gay CEO of a Fortune 500 company quietly tripled the market capitalization

and made Apple, I don't want to say relevant again, but increasingly relevant. Apple is just, and then, you know, open stores that totally went into this dying medium, went vertical, created these temples for the brand. As they realized that broadcast was starting to lose its effectiveness, transferred money out of broadcast advertising into $7 billion in leases, which was arguably one of the greatest unlocks in the history of business. And then I think this dual-class, young, broken sociopath and his $2 billion beard that have, in my opinion,

levied more damage than almost any company in modern history and still get to decide what are the algorithms that present the content that nudge the population of the Southern Hemisphere one way or another. I think Facebook is, and Mark Zuckerberg, are the most dangerous organization and individual alive today. So yeah, I think, look, I think you nailed it. Apple and Facebook, the wins and fails of the last decade. And they're the opposites, too. They're kind of interesting because Tim obviously has been outspoken comparatively. What's interesting about Apple to me, it's kind of a win for the olds.

Because they have, by the way, they could have retired, right? Everything could have just closed down after Steve Jobs died, and they would have been hits. They had hit after hit after hit after hit. But they continue. That's what's amazing to me is this is a group of people, which you have all kinds, there's all kinds of issues at Apple around workplace and things like that. And they continue to have controversies surrounding their app store

and things like that. But in general, it's, and, you know, their taxes, come on. Like they got a tax. And, you know, he's sort of kissing up to Trump a little bit more than he should. But it's really interesting that this is an older group of people who've been together for a very long time and, again, have had so many hits. And I don't want to say it's like the Rolling Stones because I'm trying to think of, like, what would be the rock? Like, it just continues to make good music.

Like, it's really kind of fascinating where you get that when you're that rich and you've done that, had that much success, why you keep succeeding. And so that's heartening as an older lady. I think about a lot. Fear of death, wanting to be relevant, wanting to go to St. Bart's, party with younger women. Do I need to go on? He doesn't go. Tim Cook doesn't go to St.

You'll never see Tim Cook at St. Bart's. I'm sorry to tell you. No. Okay. That's not his. He's a very simple man, I think. I think he has a very—he likes football from Alabama. I think that's where he went to college.

He talks about football a lot. Yeah. And he just loves Apple. I think he just—I don't see that. He doesn't really strike me as—I mean, he has very nice sweaters, but otherwise I don't see a lot of spendy-spendiness from him. But anyway, it'll be interesting to see if Zuckerberg can redeem himself. Despite these, you know, like they say, I make a lot of money, so what?

I must be right. That's not a good enough excuse anymore as far as I'm concerned. Good for you. You built a great business by hurting other people. And I think they have to really start to—it would be really lovely to see that in the next decade for him. It's not going to happen. There's about as much chance of that happening as you getting me that rabbit coat you keep promising. And not only that, it's dangerous.

It's not true. I have hope for Mark Zuckerberg. This takes me back to a terrible and awful place when I was eight years old, and we used to go to the Mission Valley Mall in Laguna Niguel, and my dad would take my mom in, let her try on the rabbit coat. It was $58. It was coming for Christmas. Rabbit fucking coat.

And before you know it— I'll get you a coat, please. And before you know it, my dad is living with a flight attendant from Continental Airlines, Kara. It takes me to a bad place. Mark Zuckerberg

is not going to be redeemed. Let's retire this story for the decade. Let's put it away. Let's put a little box Let's find a district attorney that does the redemption on Mark Zuckerberg.

on Mark Zuckerberg. That's what we're going to do. We're not discussing the rabbit coat anymore. It's not happening. It's done. We're done. We're going to have a little,

we're going to have a little, like're going to have a little like funeral. He fought her a food presser, a food processor. And what a shocker, he's been married four times. He's been married four times. What a shocker. One big prediction. And then we have to close. We have a really good close. Our parents are going to talk about us, speaking of our parents, speaking of that dad of yours who just impugned. Let's talk. What is your big prediction? And then we got to get out of here. I got things to do, Scott.

I got decades. I've got my decade to live. My big prediction? Yeah. Oh, my big prediction is that big tech is up. I mean, my prediction for 2020 is that we're going to see another 20% or 30% increase in the market capitalization of big tech. I just don't see anything slowing them down.

I mean, the market might crash, but they'll outperform those four companies or five companies who outperform every other sector. I just don't see anything getting in their way right now. Everyone keeps waiting for the fall, and I don't see it. We'll see. Oh, all right. That's not that exciting.

So you have to be back to kissing their ass? Is that what you're going to do? Well, no, I think they're terrible people, and I'd like to see one or more of them in an orange jumpsuit. But from a shareholder perspective, I just don't see—unregulated monopolies make great investments, and they continue to be unregulated monopolies. And I vote with my feet. People say, well, it's hypocritical of you to be so disparaging in these companies and then to invest in them and finance their growth. And my feeling is I'm a capitalist the best performing stock other than Netflix, you've been kind of shut out from the massive increase in the S&P over the last 10 years. And I just don't see that changing for the next one or two years. I think these companies are going to continue.

I think these companies are going to continue. Every time I use them, every time I look at their moves, every time I see an Amazon van, every time I order something seamlessly off of Instagram now, I think, oh, my goodness, these companies, they're just getting their momentum. The flywheel, the mother of all flywheels, the most valuable company in the world, okay, my prediction, the most valuable company in the world is AWS once it's spun. It's going to be the most valuable company. Who can't own a share of AWS? Who will not be able to not own shares in the biggest cloud company in the world? Those are going to be the shares you give your granddaughter at the christening. Those are going to be the shares that every pension, every alternative investment company in the world has to own regardless of the valuation. So anyways, my other thing. AWS, most valuable company in the world. You're going to keep getting rich and insulting the tech companies. Very nice. There you go. That's how the dog rolls. He's complex. Well, let me just,

then let me use the opportunity to say who raised you? And we're going to find out in just a second. Before we head out for the decade, Rebecca also called our parents to talk about how far we've come over the decade. First, let's hear a cameo from my mother, Lucky Carney, Lucretia Carney. Go for it. Kara is her own person, as you know, much to my chagrin at times. Yes, she was wearing the aviator sunglasses. She was known for that. She hasn't changed much. I didn't think she would be as famous, I guess, as she has become.

Kara, I am so proud of you. And while we disagree politically, I love you and I couldn't be more proud or happy for you at this time of your life. Oh, my God. That's nice. She always does this. That's nice. She's, like, evil half the time and then pulls something like this out. That's nice.

That's going to make you feel good. Yeah, it does. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I don't like her political things. I do think Fox News has changed her brain. I really, truly do.

It's like, I'm going to, when she dies someday, I'm going to have it, I'm going to donate it to science to see if there's Fox, like CTE. There's Fox syndrome. Yeah, but parents loving you and being proud of you. That's 99% there. You're 99%. You can argue over the other 1%. She always shows up.

My mother always shows up. She always shows up. I got to say. She looks good. She does. She looks good. She does look good. Now a word from Tom Galloway, the dad of Scott.

The biggest change I see in Scott is going to the other end of the way he has changed his whole family life now. It's like a little closed circle. They don't go out a lot. It's like a little

circular group with Viada, the boys, and him. And it's that little closed loop like a family living in a prairie but Scott cares very deeply for my well-being

and that he gives me the benefit of his intellect and helping me to see things clearly in my life. He makes me take a step back from my impulses and look at things in a more balanced way. That's unfair. Oh, my God.

This is so manipulative. Irish? No, he's Scottish. Irish? Glasgow. San Diego's Glasgow. Scottish. That's unfair. By the Irish? Glasgow. Sandy Hills, Glasgow. Scottish. That's unfair.

By the way, that was clearly the dementia speaking. Dad, that's it. We're putting you in the Happy Valley Act of Living Home. I didn't know your dad was Scotty from Star Trek. That's amazing. Yeah, that's him. By the way, a Scottish accent and good looks. No wonder he's been married four times.

You're a closed loop. You're a closed loop. I like that. That's lovely. Oh, look at that. Look at that. You're dead. You just insulted him and he said a loving and touching thing about you. How do you feel? You have all heart, Scott. I think that's what he was saying. I believe that's what he was saying. And you've become a great family man. Is that correct? Is that the correct translation of that? Yeah. Says the man who's been married four times. Anyways, but yeah, that was very emotionally manipulative. And I think we should move on or I'm going to start crying because you know I will cry. All right. You know I will cry. I like when you cry. I love when you cry. I love when you cry. It's so touching. You know what? Also, you talked about

the, I don't know about you, at some point you get there. I have full, I did not cry from the age of 34 to 44. Now I cry all the time. I've embraced the sloppy part of me. I like it. I like the sloppy, Kara. Not me, baby. I'm not going to be crying. That was nice. Nice is still around. And the next decade, 85 or something, somewhere in there. Yeah, my dad's 89. Yeah. Anyway. All right, Scott, on that touching note, it's time for us to go. We're going to take a break for the last days of 2019 to reflect, but we'll be back in the next decade, starting January 3rd, 2020. I like 2020. It feels good, 2020. It feels like fresh. It's going to be fresh, Scott. You'll see. Things will turn around. Meanwhile, you can reach us by using hashtag pivotpodcast or emailing us questions at pivot at voxmedia.com.

By the way, we recorded a Recode Decode episode about our favorite moments in the podcast in 2019. Listen to it on Monday, December 30th, before the new decade begins. Scott, happy decade. Yeah, likewise, Cara. Congratulations on all your success and all the relationships in your life. Thank you so much for doing this podcast with me. It is a great pleasure and it's a great honor to do so.

All right, and we will do more in the next decade in 2020, as Barbara, 2020, as Barbara Walser says. Today's show was produced by Rebecca Sinanis. Eric Anderson is Pivot's executive producer. Thanks also to Rebecca Castro and Drew Burrows. Thanks again to all the friends of Pivot who lent their voice to this show. Make sure you subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, or if you're an Android user,

check us out on Spotify or, frankly, wherever you listen to podcasts. If you liked our show, please recommend it to a friend. Thanks for listening to Pivot from Vox Media. Scott and I will be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. breakdown of all things tech and business. Thank you. Learn more at klaviyo.com slash BFCM. including companies like Uber, BMW, and DoorDash. Stripe has helped countless startups and established companies alike reach their growth targets, make progress on their missions, and reach more customers globally. The platform offers a suite of specialized features and tools to fast-track growth, like Stripe Billing, which makes it easy to handle subscription-based charges, invoicing, and all recurring revenue management needs.

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