Pivot - Google Antitrust Redux, Debate Predictions, and Guests Sue Bird and Megan Rapinoe

Episode Date: September 10, 2024

Kara and Scott discuss the court battle over Rupert Murdoch's empire set to get underway this week. Then, Google and the DOJ are facing off for another major trial, this time Google is facing antitrust claims about its ad business. Plus, predictions on the presidential debate. Finally, our Friends of Pivot are sports icons, Sue Bird and Megan Rapinoe, who are now offering expert analysis every week on their podcast, "A Touch More." Sue and Megan talk about how women's sports has become a booming business, the pros and cons of athletes using social media, and the importance of being politically engaged. Check out Vox Media's "A Touch More: The Podcast" weekly on Wednesdays on YouTube, Apple, and Spotify. Follow Megan at @mrapinoe and Sue at @sbird10. Follow us on Instagram and Threads at @pivotpodcastofficial. Follow us on TikTok at @pivotpodcast. Send us your questions by calling us at 855-51-PIVOT, or at nymag.com/pivot. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher. And I'm Scott Galloway. Scott, I'm in San Francisco. I'm here in San Francisco. Guess what I'm doing today? What are you doing today? Well, besides eating delicious oysters and enjoying gorgeous restaurants with my brother yesterday, I'm going to the Apple event today after this, going down to Cupertino to their... Oh, another headset? It's a new phone. It's a new phone. Well, okay. How new is it? We'll see. I'm going to see. I'm very excited, actually. I used to go to Apple events all the time when Steve Jobs was

around, and I haven't been to one in a long, long time. They're actually very fun to see what happens and stuff like that. There's not too many in-person anything anymore. So, I'm super excited to drive down there and watch the whole schmumbag, you know, whatever they put on, stuff like that. I'll be visiting some of their executives and it should be fun. So my 14-year-old, it's, I would say next to football games, it's like the event he's most excited about. He loves it. He talks about it. He wants, he said, supposedly they're coming out with this and this. And dad, have you upgraded to the new iOS? They really have done an amazing job of turning it.

I think that the first corporation, auto companies used to be really good at creating announcements around the 2024 model, you know, Chrysler LeBaron. And they pull a soap thing off with some hot girl and an old white guy. Microsoft used to do it. Here's the new LeBaron. Yeah. But they haven't done a very good job of that anymore. And Apple's, I'm trying to think of another company that figures that away. Tesla's about to do one at a Hollywood studio.

Their RoboTax doesn't exist. They're trying to do like look at us kind of stuff. Tesla does quite a few of them. Actually, you know who does a really good job is the shoe industry with their drops and fashion a little bit. Oh, the drops. Yeah. Yeah, the drops. My son will get us all signed up for Nike or StockX and he says, okay, now when we try and get the latest, you know, whatever it is, so he can resell it somewhere. On Thursday, he bought tickets to, I think it's SneakerCon, and he met all of his friends there, and they spent seven hours at a sneaker conference. And he plays their trivia games and wins sneakers, and then he goes there and sells sneakers. And it just absolutely-

I think that's cool. I'm weirdly excited. Do you know what I'm weirdly excited for? Your birthday. Oh, thanks. It's this weekend. I'm flying my little ass across the Atlantic Ocean. When do you get to Edinburgh to join up with all of a sudden oatmeal savages? Right, exactly. Did you send in your kilt measurements? I sent in my kilt measurements. I'm getting a kilt.

It better be a good kilt. They're tartan coated by how long I've known people. Oh, how interesting. I'm bringing my lesbian boots too. They said boots. I have to wear boots with them. Lesbian boots? I'm bringing, too. They said boots. I have to wear boots with them. Lesbian boots? I'm bringing lesbian boots. They said boots.

Okay. Your wife has a very strict bunch of rules that she's sent us, at least 97 emails about boots are part of the Italian. Yeah, she's definitely pretty, yeah. I'm just showing up. I heard all of this is happening. I'm very excited to do all the things. DJ, whiskey tasting, axe throwing, horseback riding, golfing, all that good stuff. Yeah, I'll try not to hurt you too much. There's tea at Balmoral. There's all sorts of very Scottish things. One of my friends is leading a bike ride to the Trossachs or whatever.

Yeah, it should be very Scottish. I want a display of strength. I want a feat of strength contest of you throwing things. I'm not drinking before dinner because I'm worried about being too emotional. That is my demonstration of strength and willpower. I'm going to give a speech then. I'm going to do a speech to make you cry. That's going to be my goal.

Anyway, I'm excited. I'm excited. I'm excited for Apland. When do you get to Aberdeen? Friday morning. Oh, you're going to Friday. It's like a nine-hour drive to your castle, whatever. Anyway, I'll get there.

Don't you worry. I was going to drive. Are you going on horseback? Yeah. Nine hours? You drive across the UK in nine hours? It's in the middle of nowhere. I feel like I'm in a Channing Tatum movie, and I'm going to end up drugged and murdered or something.

That's the point. I'm an organ merchant, and this is all, this is some high quality organs. There's all these movies like this recently. Blink Twice. Welcome to my game. Speak No Evil is another one. It's like isolating people in a rural area and then killing them. Like that kind of thing.

Is Amanda excited? I'm more flattered she's coming than you are. Yes, she is. She bought a gown for your thing. She bought a gown. So this is how much people are ready to party. And we invited 53 couples. 51 are coming.

We were planning on 35. The other two, I don't know, something like a funeral, some lame excuse. But everybody is so ready after the holiday. And not only that, I think the key is we said no kids. Everyone is so sick of their kids over the summer. Guess who's taking care of my kids? Louis Swisher.

So he and his girlfriend are coming down. But everyone's like, alcohol, Scotland, and no kids. I'm in. I'm in. Exactly. Exactly. It's actually not that far aflight.

Anyway. You're going to meet a hundred of my closest friends, Kara. Get ready. Okay. I can't wait. Well, we've got a lot to get to today. Before that,

including Google's latest antitrust trial getting underway, our predictions about the presidential debate, which is't wait. Well, we've got a lot to get to today before that, including Google's latest antitrust trial getting underway, our predictions about the presidential debate, which is coming up Tuesday night, the night of this, when this appears. Plus our friends at Pivot, our sports legends, Megan Rapinoe and Sue Bird. I'm bringing in some of the big guns here.

They've joined the Vox Media family with their podcast, A Touch More. They called it A Touch More? A Touch More. It's very sexy. They're very sexy. It is, I know, that's my point. They're a sexy pair. We'll find out why they call it sexy. They're very sexy. It is. I know. That's my point. They're a sexy pair.

We'll find out why they call it that. They're very attractive, although I don't notice things like that in a professional context, Cara. I don't even notice it. No, that's correct. Anyway, but speaking of people who are not people we find sexually attractive, the court battle over Rupert Murdoch's media empire is set to begin in Nevada this week. Oh, hot.

Hot. As a reminder, Murdoch wants to alter the terms of his succession to allow his son, Lachlan, who he's most aligned with politically, to keep sole control. The case is being kept top secret, but a coalition of media organizations, including the New York Times and CNN, has petitioned the court to open up the proceedings. It's ridiculous. They're trying to keep it quiet. But it's not the only battle the family is currently facing. Activist investor Starboard Value wants to dissolve the News Corp's dual class structure, challenging the Murdoch family's control over the Wall Street Journal. I would agree. What's going on? The end of his life? I thought he'd make it out compared to other rich assholes. You know, he seemed to not fight with his kids the way that happened at Viacom with Sumner Redstone and many, many other rich people. But it seems like that's what's happening. Three of the kids didn't go to his wedding, his recent wedding. And Lachlan is all by himself. And just for people who don't know, when Rupert dies, the four of them make decisions together equally, and he's trying to change that.

Go ahead, Scott. I'd love to hear what you think. Yeah, where I go on this is not to the business side. It goes to, like, I'm setting up a trust right now. And it's actually more complicated than you think. When do they get money? I mean, these are high class, you know, white people problems. But if and when do they get money? Who has decisions over it? Morgan Housel had a great, he said something that really struck me. He's like, all my friends have the same bullshit line. I'm putting them through college and then that's it, they're cut off because the reason I'm successful is I had to. And then one by one, none of them do that. They all help their kids out because here's what happens. Your kids are good kids. They're trying hard. And because the cost levied on young people through education, student loans, housing is so extraordinary that if you want them to have any reasonable semblance of a facsimile of the life you're leading right now, you end up helping them out. And it becomes a problem because it's easy for them to get addicted to that, used to that. Anyway, so I've just given up and I've said,

okay, I'm throwing in the towel. I'm going to put some money aside for my kids. But I've been thinking a lot about the following, and I'll bring this back to the Murdochs. I want the structure of it such that one brother is never favored over the other, such that the kids never feel an onus to get along with me or their mom to try and get money. Because this shit ruins families. And I think he is failing when he has pit one kid against the other three siblings. one kid against the other three siblings. I just don't think that's- Well, it was fair until now. It was, it was. That's my point. Yeah, yeah. His last parting moment is to create agita

and dissension between siblings. So I don't, first off, I don't know, I don't know how Starboard can declassify a company unless they agree. I don't know how that works. At the New York Times for a hot minute when I was a shareholder and on the board there, I thought, how do we declassify the board?

And the reality is they usually have trusts. Unless they agree, it doesn't get declassified. So I don't know how that would actually happen. Why are they doing it? Why is Starboard trying to do this? Oh, easy, because then the company's in play. Right, if it can't happen, why are they doing it? I don't know. I guess I don't know.

I've never seen a dual class shareholder company that can be declassified unless the people who own the voting shares agree to it. But I've never seen a situation where unless you get those controlling shareholders to agree to it, that they'll actually be able to declassify. But once you declassify, in this instance, they would probably sell off some of the low-growth assets, go buy others, maybe get more focused on cost-cutting. There's all kinds of things that people probably look at these assets and think they can unlock value around. Yeah. So where do you think it'll go?

Because what's really interesting about this, what I was reading, is that this one probate court judge is going to decide this, like, without any kind of, like, how and why or anything else. And I think it should be seen so people could see it. But, you know, this is Murdoch going for it, right? He's hoping he can influence this probate court guy and sort of live past his death, right? That's what he's trying to do. this probate court guy, and sort of live past his death, right? That's what he's trying to do, trying to control things past his death with his feckless son, Lachlan. I know you think more of Lachlan, but I think if he said in the first place and agreed with his ex-wife to give each of them an equal standing, it should stay that way. I don't know. And they're arguing it's not good for us. He's arguing it is good. I want to foist this right-wing lunacy on them and help them kind of thing. Well, first off, all the kids are good-looking, and that's important. Secondly,

the keyword here is all of these assets were put in what's called an irrevocable trust. And the keyword there is irrevocable. And the reason you get tax benefits and assets can grow tax-deferred is that the person who put them in that irrevocable trust can't pull them out, can't sell them, gives up some control in exchange for tax benefits. He is basically saying, no, there's a loophole and I'm going to make an irrevocable trust revocable. And that is I'm going to change the terms and give all the voting authority from four people who equally share control to just one. And the only loophole his lawyers have been able to find, what they're going to try and argue, is that it is in the best economic interests of the trust to make this change. So his argument is going to be, but this comes down to, in my view, a political argument. is going to be, but this comes down to, in my view, a political argument. And that is,

he's going to have to convince a judge that the other three are poor fiduciaries for the value of the trust. So I need to give it to the one sane one. And I would imagine that the other siblings are going to argue, no, we have just as much business insight. This thing will have just as much opportunity for economic growth as under this guy. All this is, is that Rupert has decided he wants these assets to be firmly under the control of someone who is much more conservative in their political ideology. justifies the irrevocable trust being revoked. They have to connect a conservative viewpoint or Lachlan's specific skills to economic value. And I think that's a tough bridge to cross. We'll see what happens. I think it should be open, though. It'd be interesting to see their dynamics. Very quickly, major Democratic Wall Street donors, speaking of hip-checking people, want Vice President Kamala Harris to replace FTC Chair Lena Kahn and SEC Chair Gary Gensler. If she wins in November, the donors reportedly complain that Kahn is impeding the technology sector and Gensler tucks down to Wall Street.

Members of the FTC can only be fired for inefficiency or neglect, and the president could designate another commissioner as chair. SEC chairs often resign when there's a change in the White House. Mark Cuban says he's asked Harris to put his name in for the SEC. Should he get a spot? That would be interesting. He's sort of doing a modified Elon. Mark's a thoughtful guy.

Yeah, I agree. I would love to see him. I'd actually like to see Mark run for governor. I think that's what he should do. But I think he would be great there. The only problem is, I think Mark was a little unfair on the SEC. He was the subject of probes and he became very, I don't know, I think the SEC is understaffed. And unfortunately, the SEC slowly but surely

has become an agency that protects management more than it protects investors. Most of the regulations around disclosure are meant to protect management, not investors. So I'd like to see an overhaul of the SEC. But having said that, I think Lena Kahn and Jonathan Cantor are instrumental, and they actually have a lot of support on both sides of the aisle. And these flares shot across the bow of these incredibly powerful companies have not gotten in the way of the markets touching all times highs. They've checked back a little bit recently. The majority of customers, vendors, even former employees will say these companies have become too powerful and it squelches innovation. And these two, especially Lena Kahn, have done a good job of ensuring that we might in fact affect what would

be the second largest tax cut in history. The first is if China and the U.S. made up. The second largest tax cut in history globally would be if we oxygenated the ecosystem by lowering rents on companies, advertisers, and consumers and parents by not ensuring these companies continue to consolidate the market around their stock holdings. But this is not good for consumers. So I think she just nods and ignores them would be my advice. Yeah, that's true. I agree. I think she will ignore them. Gensler might be replaced just because that's what happens. But it would be interesting to see Cuban in a position of authority like that.

I think he should be on a commission. Just like I don't mind Elon on a commission as long as he doesn't have real power. It's fine for them to be on commissions. But Mark, I think Mark, I don't know, he sold his team. I'd like to see Mark in an executive role. I think a lot of them, I think.

But just around Gensler, I like Commissioner Gensler. I've always been impressed with him. But I heard from a lot of people, including people I really trust around crypto, that he has been slow, delay and obfuscated, and created more confusion in an environment that needs clarity. And a lot of smart people are not, and people who I would describe as part of the crypto Taliban, think that he hasn't been helpful and helped in establishing rules of the road that

are good for everybody, that there's a state of chaos and confusion in the market that's not helpful to anybody. So I don't feel as if I have the domain expertise to kind of give a thumbs up or a thumbs down to Commissioner Gensler. Yeah, he's had a mixed, he'll be replaced. She'll pick her. There's so many different people. If she wins and if Trump wins, he'll immediately replace him. That's how it's going to go, I think. I don't think Gensler will have that job. But Lena Ann has fans on the Republican and the Democratic side. She does. Cantor will be replaced, because they'll have an attorney general who'll pick that, whoever, if it's Trump. He probably will stay if it's Kamala Harris to complete some of these deals, which we're going to talk about next. So let's get to our first big story. The next antitrust showdown between the Department of Justice and Google is set to get underway this week in Virginia courtroom. There's a second case, people haven't realized this,

following its recent win in the online search case, speaking of Jonathan Cantor, the DOJ is trying to prove that Google used monopolistic tactics in its ad business to drive up prices for customers. They're claiming Google locked in publishers and advertisers to its product and forced websites to develop workarounds in response. Let's talk a little about the case that the DOJ is bringing here. I'll note that testimony is expected from representatives of news publishers, including News Corp, Box Media, and the New York Times, and recorded depositions. Google has not been on a winning streak here. Talk about what you think about it. I think this is another data point of consumers. The jig is up. They're like, okay, Apple, you can pretend to care about kids. Why do you keep blocking

agencies and authorities from trying to put in place technology that protects kids? Okay, Google, you claim that you're good for the world, but you continue, you not only control the sales side of the market, but the buy side and make the market. So you have total, you know all the information, meaning you can actually elevate the market and not have it be competitive in terms of what advertisers pay. in terms of what advertisers pay. I mean, people have said, okay, Meta, anyone that strikes you of any sort of competitive threat, you buy them or you create a dynamic where they're put out of business. I mean, and also this notion

that anything in the offline world gets punishment. All right, if I traffic in drugs or I traffic women, young women or minors, or I facilitate the transaction of funds through a bank to support terrorism, I go to jail. But if it's done under the auspices of a digital platform, oh, no, it's speech. I think people are just fucking fed up. And this jazz hands. Everything is speech. It's fucking fed up.

Right. And this jazz hands. Everything is speech. So the worm has turned. And this is yet another example of that. Because what you see is these companies are growing much faster than the market. I mean, do you have any idea what is actually happening? L.A. is becoming a nice weather Detroit.

Yeah. Wow. That's a great way to put it, Scott, that's a great way to put it, Scott. That's a great way to put it. And guess what? When Google, TikTok, and Meta are adding to their top line and the economy is growing 3% a year, that means somebody else is losing a shit ton of money. Let's talk about how the digital ad industry change if things don't go Google's way.

One analyst estimated that the loss could result in Google paying at least $100 billion in damages to advertisers. We're not even talking about Hollywood in that regard. But, you know, these are media companies that sometimes own quite a few different things. So does that what happen? The money gets returned? Like, you know, it's been sucked out of the ecosystem in Hollywood. And also within advertisers and media companies, does it get pushed back to them? So this comes down to what will be—so they've been found guilty of monopoly maintenance.

Now the question is, what will be the remedies? That's the other case. This is an ad case, right? That's the search one. Just so you know, the judge in the Google search antitrust case they lost late last week said he plans to deliver his remedies by August 2025. He's indicated he'll consider new AI search competition from companies like OpenAI and Microsoft. That's to talk about those. Talk about the advertising impact if they lose and then talk about the search one.

Well, the remedies. So the remedies in either case, assuming in the second case, they're also found guilty, which I think they will be. I think the public opinion has changed and judges and legal scholars now feel like there is cloud cover to find these guys guilty. And I do think that people are saying, okay, now there's precedence and there's just all sorts of evidence that there are not only monopolies, which is not illegal, but they abuse their monopoly power. But the remedies come down to a few options. The first one is a fine. I think they have generally decided that fines don't work. What happens is they appeal the fine.

And based on precedent of previous fines, the fine gets diminished dramatically. They pay it out over time. And these companies make so much money that it is hard. Now, they could, but they haven't so far to come up with a fine big enough. And it takes them years, it gets whittled down. There's structural remedies, and that is you could break the company up. There's behavioral remedies, which I think is the most likely outcome here. And that is they say, for example, in the search case where they were paying to be the default choice in search, Google was paying Apple $20 billion a year. They'll say,

Apple has to do a better job of explicitly offering other search opportunities. The other remedies I think are less appealing. There's an oversight remedy where they stick a regulator in there that walks around that is the least popular person in the snack room saying, no, you can't do that. And then changes to the algorithms or business models, which quite frankly, I don't think the government has the domain expertise to implement and supervise. I think this is going to be around. I doubt they're going to break them up. I would love to see a structural remedy here. I bet it's going to be a behavioral remedy. I don't know. They are thinking of the, you know, OpenAI is introducing a search product. Oddly enough, I went to dinner with Casey Newton last night, our friend Casey Newton, and we were walking in the street and the car pulls up and

it's Sam Alton. And it's like, hey guys. And he goes, we have a cool product coming out soon. And he was obviously talking, I think he was talking about search and then he drove off. What kind of car does he drive? And was he with a hot dude? I'm more interested in the gossip than anything else. He was, he was, I'm not going to go into that, but it,

car was a big car. It was a big car. It wasn't an electric car, I don't think. A big car. It was a big car. It was a big black car and he was driving it up the street

in the Castro. So, but he's coming out with a search thing. There's obviously search competitors. So this guy is going to have to acknowledge the changing market in search, right? He's going to have to, you know, you can't have a remedy given there's competitor, if there's competitors coming necessarily. Of both of them, what do you think the likeliest one will be? First search and then advertising. Or what would you like to have? Scott Galloway as Judge Galloway. Oh, I've been jonesing since I wrote my book, The Four, available now on Amazon in 2017.

Which, by the way, is about to be, I didn't want to bring this up because I know you won't, but has been greenlit as a original scripted series on Netflix. I know that. I was going to bring it up at the end, but go ahead. Go ahead. Well, never mind. I don't want to talk about it. I don't like to post, so I'll let you bring it up.

Scott has sold, everybody, Scott has sold a movie to Hollywood. It seems to be involving Sheryl Sandberg. It seems to be. That is not true. It's not about Sheryl. It's not about Sheryl. No. Rosamund Pike is not playing Sheryl. No, no, no. I mean, granted, it might be about a female executive that has lied longer than any executive in history. Yeah, okay. But it won't be. It's not about female executive that has lied longer than any executive in history. Yeah. Okay. But it won't be. It's not about Cheryl. It's a mashup of a bunch of people. Congratulations, Scott. I'm very excited for you to go Hollywood now that Hollywood's over. Kara, I'm sorry. I've outgrown you. I've outgrown you.

I already sold my book. I sold my book to Hollywood. I haven't sold it to Netflix yet. All I want is to shack up in Malibu with Emily Ratajkowski. I just want it to get made. I've been trying to sell this bitch for seven years. Yeah, you tried to drag me into it. I didn't want to get Sheryl Sandberg mad at me. I did. I did. I tried to get you involved.

And you're like, no, I'm going to do my own thing. I'm going to do my own thing. Can I go to the Emmys with you? Yeah. I'm going. I don't know. I'm wearing my kilt. I'm wearing my kilt. As you know, I'm most likely taking Patti Stone's Cypher, but...

All right, very quickly, remedies. I would love to see, I think the best thing for the economy, I love breakups. If you look at the history of breakups, whether it's the aluminum guys, the steel guys, the phone guys, you never look back and think, oh, we fucked up breaking those companies up. They oxygenate the environment. They're good for shareholders. They're good for employees. More people want to rent labor. They create more tax revenue, more innovation. We found out that when we broke up AT&T that dormant or fallow in AT&T or Bell Labs was optics, fiber, cell, all this shit. They didn't want to compete with their long distance lines, which they had a monopoly on. I would love to see a breakup.

If I had to bet, it'll be a behavioral remedy that says, okay, Google, you have to make it much easier for consumers to pick another search engine. Search engine. Okay.

And then for the advertising? I don't know. I don't feel like I have the domain expertise. Breakup. I say you separate them. You can't be the buyer and seller in a market.

What's the old double click or whatever it is? They might have to spin that. Spin that off. Yeah. I think a nice fine, separate them. You can't be the buyer and seller in a market. What's the old double click or whatever it is? They might have to spin that. Spin that off. Yeah. I think a nice fine, a nice fat fine would be good. $100 billion. They don't work. $100 billion would be very welcomed by publishers after- I don't think they legally can figure out a way to live with $100 billion fine. Along with behavioral remedies and stuff like that. Well, it could be a combination. Along with behavioral remedies and stuff like that. Well, it could be a combination. Yeah.

It could be a combination. But again, the meta news here is that people are, what has happened in the last 30 years? The number of journalists has been substantially reduced. And the number of PR comms execs who now come up to me and interrupt me all fucking day long at the Democratic National Convention to introduce me to some VP at a fascinating new technology company, or can get me a few minutes with the CEO of a ride-hailing company, why the fuck would I want to meet with this person who brightens up a room by leaving it? So the ratio of spin and bullshit and our impression that these companies are noble and really concerned about the world and proud of their progress and want to make the world a better place, the jig is up. Yeah, I think the worm has certainly turned.

We'll see if it continues to turn. Anyway, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll speak with our friends of Pivot, Megan Rapinoe and Sue Bird. I'm bringing the big lesbians in, Scott. Fox Creative. This is advertiser content from Zelle.

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know and trust. payment platforms, remember to only send money to people you know and trust. Scott, we're back. We're going right to our friends of Pivot. Megan Rapinoe and Sue Bird are legendary athletes, Olympic champions, and have been dubbed by GQ the most beloved power couple in sports. How many of them there are? But anyway, they're also hosts of the new Vox Media podcast, A Touch More. Welcome to the family, Megan and Sue. Hi. Hi. Thanks for having us.

How's it going? How's the podcasting going? We are just learning on the fly. It's fun on the fly. We're like figuring it out. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So let me, let's start with that. The show was originally launched on Instagram during COVID. Explain, explain what you are doing here with the podcast first. Well, yeah, it started, you know, I guess one edition of it,

which was just, we were in the pandemic, stuck in our apartment. What's something we could do together that would be fun? So we decided to go on IG Live like every Saturday at whatever time, 7 o'clock. We were drinking. We were having fun. We were talking about current events, all the things. And then fast forward a couple years, somebody was like, hey, would you guys want to do live shows? So we're like, all right, let's try to do that. And then it kind of morphed into what it is now as a podcast, which is definitely more women's sports bent, you know, where culture, politics, fashion, all the things meet women's sports.

And we're just kind of figuring it out from there. Yeah. Shooting from the hip on a lot. It's kind of fun. Yeah. Did you feel like everyone has a podcast? You have to have one? Honestly, that's probably what kept us out of it for so long was that everybody has podcasts. We're like, oh, we don't want to be that. I can't tell you how many people will just randomly say like, oh man, does everyone have to have a podcast now? And now I'm like, yeah, we do too. But listen to Ari. Yes. But listen to Ari. So why did you call it a touch? Where's the name from? You want this one? It's all yours.

Honestly, we were in the pandemic. We were probably like six weeks into the pandemic. You know, obviously our lives at that time were totally interrupted. We couldn't really like work out. We didn't know, you know, if it was airborne or not. We didn't know if the Olympics were happening or not. So we're trying to like stay in a certain level of shape, but obviously can't. Trying to train and do all the things, but really just like eating and drinking in our apartment and, you know, having cortisol levels through the roof like everybody else. And at one point.

Yeah, it sounds like scott but go ahead at one point sue looks at me and she's like do i like do i have i like gained wage do i look like you know what you want to jump the same no yeah and i was like no i mean i don't know like maybe a touch more but like no oh yeah i know total fail you were set up i misread i mis were set up from the start. I misread the situation. Set up from the start. I'll own it. Apparently, honesty is not the best policy, but here we are. Yeah, a touch more.

Oh, my God. That's where it comes from. Sue, you are, of course, a WNBA legend, having played with the Seattle Storm for 19 seasons. That's an astonishing thing. But the WNBA is having a remarkable season with record viewership and attendance, thanks in large part to rookies like Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese, who's now out for the season after an injury. I just love your assessment of what they should be doing to build the enthusiasm. And Megan, I'd love you to jump in, because it's sports, how to get people to do more sports. The New York Liberty has seen 130% year-over-year increase in season ticket membership. They've raised their prices, as have a number of WNBA teams. And I also want to mention Sue joined the ownership group for the Seattle Storm earlier this year. Why don't you start, Sue? Sure. I mean, my answer to this question is that we already did it. We already did it. The product on the floor has never been better. It has continued to be kind of like the rock of the league throughout the course of my career and then now. So that part, you know, check that box. I think the businesses, obviously we get a lot of help from the NBA, but now each individual team's business is being run with the future in mind, right? Not just how we're going to get by this year. So things have been, the foundation has been built for many, many years. And now what you're seeing is we finally, through

all the work we've done, yes, in the last 28 years, which is a league existence, but also more so in the last like four or five years, now we're at this point where the way I like to look at it, we have crossed this imaginary line of celebrity that usually male athletes automatically cross the minute they're drafted, the minute they play. For some reason, the WNBA was held back. We know those reasons. A lot of them end with an ism. And so now that we've crossed that line, you're seeing that people are looking at us differently. They're looking at the league differently. When they get offered WNBA tickets, not just celebrities, people in general, but when they get offered, now it's like, oh yeah, you name it. We want them to look at our potential. We've gotten to that point. Like we've proven it. We're here. We've done the thing.

We've done the thing without your support. Now imagine what it would look like if we had your support. So people can see our potential. That's where the business is going to take off in another direction. So Megan, if you could comment, because in all, I mean, it's the same thing that's happening with soccer and other things, but talk about that invisible line of celebrity and what it does. Like what do you think has happened? Is it because, say, your team did so well or people were looking at women's sports in general, though they separate out men's sports pretty easily? I mean, I think it's a combination of a lot of things, but I think just in general, the sort of changing tide in the country even. I mean, even through the pandemic, obviously the WNBA's work and getting Reverend Warnock and Senator Warnock elected, but it's

also like, I honestly feel like the people with the money, and we normally know who those people are, ran out of excuses or things that they could sort of blame on not investing in women's sports. And now all of them are like flocking, you know, like it's like Bob Iger bought into, you know, the team in L.A. Angel City FC. So I feel like it's like we can't say that it's not fun anymore. We can't say that like everyone's gay and we don't like that anymore. Like being overtly racist isn't really that cool anymore. And so I feel like in a lot of ways, it just kind of like crossed this threshold. I think social media was a big part of that. Players could get their own stories out, different ways to disseminate media.

I think that increased TV viewership, increased, you know, investment from not only existing ownership groups, but new ownership groups coming in. That's sort of the baseline. For women, it's like you have to do the thing, catch lightning in the bottle. And then even then, sometimes they're like, well, I mean, are you going to do it again? And I feel like women's sports just constantly keeps doing it again and again and again. I think 2019 World Cup was huge for that, you know, having an American team be able to sort of like capture the zeitgeist in that way, the WNBA. Obviously, we saw how prominent women were in the Olympics across all different sports. So I feel like it's just in general a changing tide in the country, but it's also like a really good business

that has massive upside that's already as successful as it's been under the foot. So imagine if you took the foot off and actually gave it some water. Megan and Sue, good to see you. Congrats on the pod. So just a quick piece of advice. I would not have a partner in podcasting. That's where the shit really comes off the rails. But anyways, that's just my suggestion.

I'm fascinated by, I'm like Kara, I'm not really into sports, but I got very into the Premier League living in the UK because my sons are super into it. And I've actually been thinking a lot about it as a business. And I'm convinced that within a decade, the Premier League is going to be the biggest export, the biggest British export. I'm just fascinated or shocked, whatever the term is, by how strong these brands are globally. There's something like 30 million Man U fans in Indonesia. Yeah, it's crazy.

What is it about football, having played the sport so well for so long, that these brands have become so global? The New England Patriots, okay, they have some fans in Argentina, but not a lot. And yet these football clubs, especially in the Prem, have turned into global brands. They've gone global. Do you have any thoughts on what it is about football

and specifically the Prem and these brands that have resonated globally? I mean, the whole world plays football. And I don't know if like when America started, we were just like, let's just make our own thing and keep it here in America. And it'll be bigger than everybody else. Yeah, we'll call it football and it'll be bigger than everyone. You know, the sort of hubris of that because it's like, obviously, people play basketball. Nobody plays American football. But the rest of the world plays football. It's, like, unbelievably accessible. You just need a ball or you tape a bunch of stuff together and make that your ball and you can play anywhere.

I think the history, just, like, how long these teams have been around. And I think the, like, the week-to-week sort of storytelling that you get and then that it's like week-to-week a month over month season over season generation after generation you're like passing down this like heritage of being an Arsenal fan or being an Everton fan and what that means it's like your way of life in England. And then, you know, the billions of people around the world play soccer. And that's been probably the best league, the most invested in league, the top league for a very, very long time. Soccer's just great. And outside of, this is more a question made for both of you and brings Sue in. I think of different leagues or different sports as asset classes.

Some are increasing in value. Some are decreasing in value, some are decreasing in value. Outside of the WNBA or football, where you both are going to have a bias, what sports as you look across the landscape or what leagues do you think are increasing the most in value and also decreasing the most in value? I've heard the NFL has an aging problem, for example, or its viewers are aging. Any thoughts on which assets are increasing or decreasing? I think it's, I mean, I feel like in male sports, honestly, the screw has been turned and is being turned to milk every little last thing. And they're thinking, okay, can we get augmented reality? And obviously the betting has been huge, but yeah, I mean, I think all women's sports is, is on the up because it's been so under invested in and there's such a um an investment gap there's there's so much room to grow across media platforms live platform like all of it um i mean the nfl just seems to rake in money but i i just have to believe at some point like that's just gonna run out i mean at some point it's like we're it's not gonna be okay that you know however many percentage of the players have brain damage. That just feels like unsustainable. Yeah. Oftentimes

when I think of this question, not worded the way you worded it, I'll look at the NFL, the NBA, whatever it is, and I'll be like, what's going to take this down? Or what's going to decrease this value? Or what's going to change player salary? You keep waiting and it doesn't happen. Yeah, it doesn't. I don't think it, I actually don't think it will. I think just to Megan's point, other assets are going to grow and reach those levels, hopefully. Why did you, talked about you joining the ownership group for the Seattle Storm, but how did that entail? Did they ask you in? Did you put a lot of money in? Yeah. How did it work? Yeah. So, I mean, I played there, even though it's 19 seasons, I was actually there 21 years, two seasons I was injured. So obviously my entire adulthood

essentially was spent in Seattle. I felt like I already had ownership of the team in some ways. So later in my career, a conversation with a friend, you know, do you want to coach? Do you want to do this? Do you want to do that? And she was like, Diana Taurasi, she was like, I want to own. And I was like, yeah, that's what I want to do too. So it was kind of a seed that had been planted. So when I retired, they did approach me and ended up taking, give or take like a year and a half, two years to get it done. Not because of anything other than just me being in retirement and wanting to take my time with these types of things. But yeah, they wanted me involved. I wanted to stay involved. So there is a little bit of a heartstring reason. Like I would never, I wanted to stay involved. So there is a little bit

of a heartstring reason. Like I would never, I don't, I can't see myself owning at the time, especially owning, being part of another ownership group. But then it was like, wait a minute, this is a good business decision. This is a good investment. And yeah, I did have to put money in. The WNBA has, I mean, the ways in which my businesses, just everything got vetted, I was like, but it's just me. I was like, I'm not going to do anything shady. It's just me. But they really get in there with a fine-tooth comb. So, you know, they weren't just going to give equity for free.

I had to buy in in a very real way. I mean, for me, in a very real way. Maybe not for the rest of the ownership group, but for me, in a very real way. And I look at it as a great business. I mean, I'm getting in early and I feel very thankful for that. And that's actually part of my pitch or had been for such a long time. Telling people who were questioning or had questions around the WNBA, I'd be like, get in now. Because in five to 10 years, A, the price will be too high and B, you'll look like a genius looking back on it.

Right. But how, Megan, you have not bought into it. You've caused, I mean, had so much value created by you and your team. How do you look at it? Because most players don't have a piece in anything, right? Correct? Yeah, that's definitely something that I want. The club that I played for in Seattle, Seattle Reign, just went through an ownership change, part the Sounders group, part Carlisle group. So that was kind of a long process of getting them all through. And I'm hoping that those conversations start to open up. I definitely want to and think that I deserve it. I do think there's been a lot of value creation. And oftentimes, female athletes don't get to participate

in that real upside. I mean, even just like the valuations or teams sold over this last, like, you know, three, four, five year period, obviously without the likes of myself, Alex, you know, the rest of the national team, that just doesn't exist. So I feel like, you know, we don't always get to retroactively get what we deserve, but hopefully those conversations are happening soon. So we talk a lot about organizations that have, you know, the perception does not match reality. Apple is not as kind and as gentle as their image. I think higher education is basically the enforcer

of the caste system, not a bunch of noble people sitting around a fire, petting their Labrador. I would argue that one of the greatest enforcers of systemic racism is the NC2A, that they have figured out a way that old white guys coaching make millions of dollars and young, mostly non-white people on the floor for the purity of the sport don't make shit. And probably the only three or four years they're going to have an opportunity to make that kind of money. I'm curious what you think about the NC2A and the

fulcrum between amateur and professional athletics. And if, in fact, it's nothing but a thinly veiled ruse to maintain all of the spoils for older, mostly, quite frankly, mostly white individuals. Your thoughts? I totally agree. I think it's like people love to tell this fairy tale of the purity of the sport and for the love of the game. And I mean, we have people all the time for us in soccer, especially when we were going through our equal pay battle. They're like, we really want you to get, but like, you know, we kind of like love that you guys still just like do it for the love of it. And like the men, they just get paid so much and like like they don't even care. And I was like, oh, no, no, no. I want to be paid as much as them. Like,

give me that problem to solve myself. Also, like that's not really true, but it is. It's a way to control. I mean, I think especially for women, we talk about like the purity of the game. Like, what are we really talking about here? It's like weirdly like hypersexual in some kind of way where you have to be controlled and demure and like grateful and all that. And I know not even the TikTok trend. I'm not on TikTok. I don't even know how it works. But I totally agree with you. And then the NCAA, like that's just a billion dollar business that has essentially free labor or low cost because you're paying for their school and their housing and stuff like that. But they don't get to participate in any of the upside. And the whole business is based around them.

So, I mean, it's obviously a little wild, wild west with the NIL. And people are upset about it. And some kind of, I always find it funny when the coaches are upset about it. Can you talk about the NIL? Yeah, I love the NIL. I think, I mean, I'm definitely biased in this conversation. You could argue NIL impacts women's basketball more than any other sport. Football, a lot of other male sports. Yeah, they're going to make in college. But generally speaking, those guys go and make money. For women, women's basketball is probably the most popular women's NCAA sport. And now they get to participate in that in a real way. And for me, again, bias, they're now going to take all of that brand money,

what it does when you have those partnerships in college, you're now creating a brand yourself. Look at Caitlin Clark. Look at Paige Beckers. Look at Angel Reese. You knew them in college, and now you're going to follow them to the WNBA. So I love NIL for other reasons. So just to press pause, NIL, as I understand it, is name, image, and likeness. It became an issue when one of my heroes, Ed O'Banion, who did not go on for a great career, but it was an amazing athlete. His image was used on a bunch of online video games and he wasn't getting a single penny. So can you talk a little bit about why that's important? Has it impacted the two of you? Are you starting to collect royalties and money from your images being used in other mediums?

No. When the Edo Banyan case, I guess, got decided, I want to say I was outside of whatever years they chose. Like I didn't, it was only like a, what's like statute of limitations kind of a thing. So I was outside of that, if memory serves. I would think FIFA would be all over you. NIL is really just college. Yeah, it's mostly specific to college. So NIL for us, we call that marketing. Thank you, I didn't know that.

We're like, oh, I have a marketing deal. Oh, I signed with CarMax or whatever we're talking about. So NIL is just specific to the amateur. And yeah, the NCAA blocked all athletes from being able to capitalize on their name and genuineness. So if their jersey was sold, they didn't participate in that. If they were used in any kind of anything with the school, with the NCAA tournament, they couldn't participate financially in that. And so now there's ways where they can negotiate their own deals with brands, their own deals in different ways. They get paid for those things now, which never existed. Which you built it and created the situation so they could get this, but you don't benefit from it. I mean, yeah, every former athlete, yeah. Because listen, why do you watch college sports? It's because of the athletes, and they're the ones with the big names.

What I always find interesting is when, and NIL does this a little bit, or just the conversation around being an amateur and is this fair? Because what college coaches in a lot of universities, where they go is, well, how do we do this in recruiting? How is this fair? lot of universities where they go is, well, how do we do this in recruiting? How is this fair? If one school has more money and they can offer that, or whatever the case may be, this whole idea of fairness. And what I hate is how athletes, we're susceptible to conversations around fairness. We're very susceptible, right? We live in a world where we're just trying to make it fair. We get drug tested to make it fair. You know, I always joke, it's like, if Megan and I were playing on separate teams and we were in a tournament and if my semifinals game was at 5 p.m.

and Megan's was at 1 p.m. and then the next day was the final, athletes would be like, oh, they got four more hours of rest. Like, that's how in the weeds we get on this fairness. So I just hate because I feel like they take advantage of athletes when they try to put the, but it's not fair. How are we going to recruit? Because we all want it to be fair. That's like our whole livelihoods are based on that. And so I just don't like how they tap into that with this NIL conversation. Because for coaches, like nobody's worried about their money.

Nobody's worried when they transfer, which takes us into a transfer portal, which is a whole other bag of worms. Yeah. Okay. Let me change this topic. We talk a lot on our show about the negative impact of social media on kids and teens, but it's an issue for athletes as well. You recently talked in the podcast about the trolls that athletes face. Megan said the negativity shouldn't be the default, but it is. Do you think you guys are very active on social media? Do you think the pros outweigh the cons when it comes to athletes on social media? And talk a little bit about how you use it yourself. I think it's such a personal thing. And I think there's stigma sort of both ways.

There's stigma about using it and then looking in the comments, but then being affected by it. And then, of course, if you don't use it, there's business implications to that. I mean, the way I use it, I feel like after kneeling, when I kneeled with Colin Kaepernick in 2016, social media was obviously a thing and around. And I just feel like I understood right away that like, I don't even think there was the amount of like trolls or bots that there is now, obviously. But I was like, this is just troll. This is just bullshit. Like, people are just in here saying the crazy thing. And so I don't really get- Well, that included for you, Donald Trump, but go ahead. Yeah. Yeah. I don't really, like, get in the comments. I feel like I use it as a way to

express myself. I'm not really looking to get anything back from it necessarily, whether it's comments or whatever. But Megan's unique in that. Yeah, I am very unique in that. And I was also like, I came to it a little bit older. I feel like my brain wasn't formed around it like kids are now. I really feel for them. It's so woven into the fabric of their upbringing and their like social understanding of how to be. And it's really difficult. I always just suggest athletes like don't get in your comments, like be in the real world. Like you have people around you, friends, family, advisors, all the things like stay in that world.

But also I understand that sometimes that's like impossible to do, but it's kind of a hellscape in there. Yeah. It's a fake place with real consequence. And so I think you always have to have some sort of balance in that. Whenever you feel like that balance is out of whack, you got to find a way to recenter it. Because I do think, again, coming from the lens of a woman's athlete in this country, especially a basketball player, especially with the WNBA, it has 100% helped us grow. It has helped individuals have brands. It has helped us get messages out. It has helped us bring awareness to certain things. Without it, I don't know if the league is where it is right now.

So it's hard for me to say that it's a bad thing, but then also it's a cesspool. So you have to find that balance. And that is the tricky part. I feel like that's where I'm hopeful that every, I don't know, eight-year-old right now is taking, they have like a, it's like social studies, English, social media. But it's also like, I find it really frustrating.

Like there's, and you guys talk about this all the time. This is well known. The media companies and the internet companies have done almost nothing to stop what they know is happening. And now it's like, yeah, I mean, Kat's kind of out of the bag. How do you roll back, whether it's bots or trolls or just the sort of devolving of conversation or decorum or norm or kindness that is now just the norm on the internet like the norm is just to like whatever kind of quip you can get back whatever kind of like little negative thing that someone can type whether it's a fan or someone on social media or whatever it is like that seems the default but it's like where's their responsibility like i understand we're consuming this we've been wondering for a while. Yeah, and it's just like, yeah. So that's a whole other conversation.

So it's fascinating, or I should say, I don't understand and think it's a bad idea when couples go into business together. I feel as if it's putting all your eggs in one basket. Thanks. The eggs were already there. Mine are actually frozen. But I guess the question is, a lot of people do it, and it works out really well for a lot of people. Do you have any best practices or rules to try and maintain the health of the business and your personal relationship, given that you're obviously just so involved with each other during work hours and non-work hours?

Well, we're figuring it out. We're figuring it out on the fly. We talk about a lot of our business stuff with our couples therapists, and I'm sure in our individual therapy as well. I know I do. We have really great people that work with us, and we're trying it. Like, it could go up in flames. And if it does, we're going to pull this clip and be like, Scott was right. And it could all just come shattering down. But I feel like, I don't know, we're also enjoying it and it's fun. And we get to talk about something that we really love in women's sports, which is something obviously we both played.

And it's such a big part of our relationship. And we're just out here giving it a wing. Yeah, I think the time management of it all is maybe the most difficult. Like when are we working? When are we not? Because a lot of our lives is what you're seeing on this podcast. Like this is what we talk about in our day-to-day lives.

So at times it's like, okay, when do we shut this off? When are we just chilling? Because that's the only time for me personally, I'm just telling you this for the first time, that's the only time me personally where it gets blurry or kind of like, oh, I don't want to talk about this right now. We just talked about it for the last 12 hours. But then simultaneously, this is what you see right now is like, this is it. This is our lives. We just happen to have a camera and a microphone in front of our face,

in front of our faces. But then at the same time as athletes, our whole lives have been that. So this isn't like a new dynamic. We're not like getting used to being on air or doing something weekly. Weekly is almost easy. I mean, we had to go to practice every day. That was annoying. This is easy. Just an observation. Therapists say they can tell within the first session and counseling for couples, if it's not going to work out, if there's an eye roll. When you guys were talking about it, you were looking at each other, and I got the sense you wanted to touch each other. Oh, touch each other. You wanted to, like, grab hands or – so –

Get your thumbs up. No, but your body language – I hope people watch the video because your body language during that moment was very mutually affectionate. Scott, the therapist, is going to give you things. I never touch Scott. So that does not happen with Kara. Oh, you've got to give him a hug every now and then. There's no passing glances of affection. No, no. No, there's a lot of affection. I listen to you guys all the time. There's a lot of affection there. There is. We have just a couple more questions. You both endorsed Kamala Harris

back in July in one of the first big fundraising Zooms. What do you think about the role of the, Megan, you in particular have been more political. Again, I noted, you know, you're wrangling with Trump and he comes back, he's probably going to try to wrangle more with people like you or you in particular. How do you look at your political role? Because you jumped right in there. You didn't even look backwards when you were doing those things. I mean, I feel like, and I think this is actually how it's supposed to be, like you're supposed to participate in whatever kind of way. I always say like politics interacts with you whether you're into it or not. You know, you drive on the streets and you're governed by your politicians.

And so you might as well get involved. And I feel like this is the way that I can. I obviously am a, you know, a famous person and played sports. And I have, you know, a number of followers. And sometimes I listen, sometimes I don't. I don't know what they're doing. But like for me, I'm going to say it. I'm going to try to in some way make the world a better place.

try to, in some way, make the world a better place. And I think particularly against the sort of like authoritarian, sexist, gross, strong man, you know, type of Trump. But there's been others too. And there's been, you know, sort of others in my life and in sports and all that. Like, I just, I know I have a place of privilege and security and kind of like safety. Like, this doesn't affect my daily life when I, you know, say something bad about Trump. But this like really affects people's daily lives, whether that's like through hate crimes or policy or whatever it is. So I just feel a sense of responsibility, to be honest, as a citizen, as an American citizen, to like do my part in whatever way that is. Like, do my part in whatever way that is. And I think the more people do that and step out and say, the more community they'll find and the more people that they're like, you know, can actually have a real interaction with.

And, I mean, I think we all saw the first term of the Trump presidency and it was a total disaster and it ended with a coup. So, I mean, that's just like, that's just a tiny taste. What will you do if he wins? How do you look at your role? God, it's just terrifying. I mean, I think we just have to continue to fight. And I think probably the next thing after he wins would be, you know, going hard on the midterms and trying to change. Like, there's no other way. This is the system that we're in. We need to keep talking about it. We need to keep educating ourselves and people, and we need to keep voting people in who reflect the values that we have personally and as a society. I mean, that would really suck. That would really be hard. I vividly remember 2016.

I was in San Jose and Santana Row in November and like waking up to, you know, falling asleep, but waking up to the reality of, you know, not just that Hillary lost and I was obviously like supportive of her and really wanted that and having the first woman president, but also just that like most of the was like, grab them by the pussy is okay. And, like, I don't think everybody really understands how scary that is for us and for, you know, a huge portion of the population. So to me, it just seems second nature to be involved. And I think everybody has a responsibility to do that. But I also think that I have some kind of influence and I might as well use it to do something good. If I could just add something from the athlete's perspective that I've learned. So our world, we know so intimately, similar to how you know your world so intimately. So soccer, basketball, we know it to the depths.

I can't tell you how many articles I read that are just wrong. I can't tell you how many takes that I see that are just blatantly wrong, just wrong, literally, like factually wrong, all kinds of wrong. And I think I've known that for a very long time. I'm sure everybody in this conversation has. And that's when I realized from a political standpoint, oh, I can't just believe every article. I can't just believe every take. And that really, I think, ignited something in me on the education knowledge standpoint. So listen, everybody has whatever platform they have, whether it's, you know, 10 million people or one person. And I just feel like in my little world, I just try to be as knowledgeable as possible and understanding as

possible. And I just try to share that with people around me who might not be doing as much deep diving. And I think that's how you can also, you know, have impact. You're absolutely right. One of the things that drives me crazy is when they tell the athletes or celebrities, stay in your lane. I'm like, it is their lane. They're citizens. Why do you get to talk about politics and not them? But you do get a lot of pushback as either a celebrity or an athlete when you do something like that. All right, Scott, last question.

What is your approach to kids and sports? Like, what do you do with respect to, I apologize, do you guys have kids? No. Good. Okay, so what advice would you have? Only Kara has the militia. Kara has the kids. The way you both said that in unison, like, no, thank the Lord.

Anyways, what would your approach be for, I'm very conflicted because I played sports. I think it's a wonderful thing. I want to encourage my kids, but I don't want to be that obsessed parent. I see real negatives around, quite frankly, some kids who are amazing athletes and how their entire childhood is almost given up oftentimes to pursue the dad or the mom's dream, not theirs. So how would you counsel parents who say have a gifted athlete around the level of encouragement slash pressure you put on your kids to get? Because there's just no getting around it now.

In today's world, if you want your kid to be a professional athlete, at the age of three, they got to be swinging, you know, a ping pong paddle that looks like a tennis racket. It's just, it's insane how competitive and early they have to start. What are your thoughts? I think first and foremost, and this was something my parents did with my sister and I, I'm a twin and we both played together growing up, was they let us be the driver, so to speak.

Like, if you want to do it, we'll do it. But, like, we're not going to be, A, forcing you to do it or B, dragging you around and spending all our time, energy, and money to do that. So let the kids sort of be the driver in those decisions. Calm down. It's like, if you are yelling at your kids' games, yelling at your kid, putting these expectations on, you need to check yourself and probably into rehab. Just check yourself into rehab because there's something serious going on. It's just like, at the end of the day, especially when they're so young, I understand what you're saying, Scott, like you have to have them in, you know, this club team and this traveling team and that, you know, otherwise they're like so left behind. But I think what ends up happening is like 99.9% of the kids'

experience is now ruined because there's only one kid going pro. Like, most likely your kid is not going pro. Maybe they're going to play college and that would be a huge accomplishment. But like, most likely that's not what's happening. So what are the benefits that we're actually looking for here? And then, yeah, I mean, I just think like not putting pressure on them. There's pressure enough for kids, particularly with social media and, you know, what they're feeling in that realm. And, you know, they're going to put pressure on themselves. Like, let them just enjoy it and have fun and try to be the sort of, I don't know, protector is the right word, but be the example that you would like to see from the world for your kid. If you're the

first person putting pressure on your kid and all of that undue influence and sort of like all over them, like that's what they're gonna kind of see reflected back in the world. So I would just say like, and also most likely your kid's not going pro, so like relax.

That part. I would say what I learned throughout my career, but definitely looking back is don't, it's like a common quote, but don't mistake activity for achievement. And what I'm seeing with a lot of youth sports, a lot of my friends talk about it, their kids are on entirely too many teams, going to entirely too many practices. And it's just for what? They're just being active. Like, what are they actually gaining? What are they learning? I feel like when I see even, you know, younger professional athletes, I can tell they don't know the are they learning? I feel like when I see even, you know, younger professional athletes,

I can tell they don't know the game. And so I think from a parent standpoint, listen, some are going to have sports backgrounds, some aren't. Similar to what I was just saying about politics, like educate yourself on maybe just the best map, the best, you know, route for your kid. Maybe it's just one or two teams, not four or five, right?

And then maybe you want an individual coach. I know a lot of people are doing that now. I never had that personally, but I can acknowledge that times have changed in terms of what's needed. I just think kids are doing entirely too much and therefore not learning anything. And that to me, that development part is getting missed out on and it's going to impact them long term. And then again, I mean, what Megan said, you're probably not going pro. So what are you really trying to teach your kid here? Like, think about those lessons, not just are you putting the ball in the basket? I actually was thrilled the day one of my sons said he didn't want to play baseball anymore.

I was like, yay, I hate it. I hate it. It's so good. You're not playing. Just so you know, Sue, I'm going to put out something whenever we see each other. My son, Alex, who's quite tall, he's about 6'5", thinks he can take you in a game. Of what? Basketball. He plays a lot. He does a lot of dunking. And he's like, she can't dunk like I can. And I said, she can't shoot. And let me get my eyes on this guy. All right. Okay. I just want you to be aware. You're going to have to... He's not the only 6'5 player I've ever played against.

Well, I know that you don't want to have... You were just saying you didn't want to have kids. I really need you to help me with teach a lesson. Yeah, that's Billie Jean and Bobby Riggs part two with the same outcome. Anyway, just so you know. Anyway, thank you so much. Megan Rapinoe and Sue Bird.

If you want to hear more expert analysis of the business of sports from Megan and Sue, check out A Touch More podcast weekly on Wednesdays on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, and, of course, on the Vox Media Podcast Network. Thank you guys so much and welcome, really, truly. Congrats. Nice to see you. I know you said you were going to take us. No way.

No. We wish you good luck. We're learning earnestly from you. Yeah, yeah. That's all right. You going to take us. We wish you good luck. We're learning earnestly from you. Yeah, yeah. That's all right. You can dunk on us if you want. Anyway, thank you guys so much. We really appreciate it and really good luck and everyone should listen. It's a great podcast. Thank you. Thanks y'all. Thanks for having us. All right, Scott, one more quick break. What do you think of those two? Super, super impressive. Both of them on the field and off the field. They're amazing,

and we're thrilled that they're with Vox. Now, we're going to be back for our debate predictions. Okay, Scott, the presidential debate is tonight. So, all right, give me your prediction for the debate. I'm not watching it. Neither are you, I think. I'm not watching it, which is because, just to be blunt, I think chances are he's going to do better than people think. Her medium is being on an elevated podium with questions prepped by staff. And basically, she's playing what she was, district attorney slash attorney general. I don't think she's as good on her feet as he is. I'm hoping that he continues to show signs of being addled and cognitive decline. I got to be honest, Kara, I'm really worried about it. I

think the expectations around her momentum have become too high. And I do think he's good. I think he's good on his feet. So I just can't watch it. I'm too nervous about it. I feel nervous that she hasn't done more interviews and debates. I do. I think he's done like dozens, even if they suck. She's out of shape. They do suck up to him. He hasn't done anything tough. He hasn't done a tough interview, but he's done a lot, right? So he's out there doing things. And I think she needed to be more, I don't know. It's interesting. We'll see if she, she certainly is capable of it, right? She's fast. You know, when she was in Congress-

She was good against Pence. So she's got to have a lot of stuff ready to go and then move quickly, you know, as a good courtroom attorney does, I think. One of the reasons I wanted a competition, not a coronation, was I thought, realistically, she was the odds-on favorite. And that competition, the primary, produces really outstanding candidates who are battle-tested and are ready for almost anything because their colleagues have been shit posting them and going after them on the debate stage. And I, quite frankly, she's not combat ready. So we'll see. I, I, I'm pulling for, I'm so nervous about the thing. I can't watch it. momentum that she and her team have established create just expectations where unless she resoundingly beats him, it'll be disappointing for her. I think he has to, what I was saying on another medium was that he has to not repel women more, right? And she has to attract men.

Women are with her like by a number that's enormous, right? Yeah, she's done. She owns the women vote. Old men and young women have already voted. Yeah, so it's a question of whether he can stop repelling, because he continues to, by the way, he may be out there, but every time he opens his mouth, he says something incredibly offensive,

whether it's, these people wouldn't be my chosen one for sexual harassment, things like that. And of course, Vance is out there a lot, but he continues to say stupid things almost daily, which I don't think it matters. Although that would be an interesting debate. I do think that if he says something terrible, which is, I think, here's the issue

that I think people need to pay attention to. The visual of her across from him, a woman, a woman of color, an attractive woman, is going to shake him. It's going to trigger him. I don't know if he can stand it. He is helped by the debate, the mics being muted. Her hope is he calls her a name, right? He calls her a name. Not nasty woman, something really unpleasant. That's unpleasant enough for women, but that is the hope is that he gets so rattled by her. The other thing is he could appear too quiet,

like they want happy Trump, but there's also comatose Trump. You've seen it before, right? Where he did it at the economic club, that kind of Trump. And that shows lack of energy. So he seems old. That is his problem. She's just got to be as sharp as a fucking tack. She really does. The one piece of advice I would have for the Harris campaign would be stop falling into the same trap Democrats have been falling into for the last two years.

And that is we spend all of our capital and energy talking about why he would be bad for America. She needs to totally focus on why she would be good for America. Almost like ignore him and outline her plans. Every time she talks, it should be divided into two things. The first median is the following. Fact check him. He just said inflation is out of control. No, it's not. It's the lowest in the G7. And your plans of tariffs and restricting immigration would be highly inflationary. Now, let me tell you about the three things we have planned. planned. She needs, instead of, I wouldn't even go to the sexual abuse, I just wouldn't even talk about, don't get indignant, you're awful. That does not work. We know he's awful, yeah. We know, everybody knows that. She needs to outline, she needs to show a series of policies, she needs to come across as, in my view, a little bit wonky. Fact check, right? Okay, you want to, you claim it would be over in a day in Ukraine. This is what's happened in Ukraine. This is what we plan to do with our allies. These are the people I have

talked to in NATO. This is what Supreme Allied Commander thinks. This is why Finland's extension of NATO across an 800-mile border across Russia is a good thing for us. She needs to come across like, I got this. It's got to be more, in my opinion, than happy, nice, not Donald Trump. It has to be. Right, 100%. I get this. Who is she? People are asking.

I got my hands on the wheel. You know, I think it'll be an interesting show, and it's important. But what's your prediction? I think she might, if she has a moment, it will be great for her. She could really use this to keep the momentum. She raised three times as much as he did. I think that's the statistic I'm looking at. Like, if you go out of your way to give money, it means you want to vote.

How is she equal if she's raising three times as much money? Anyway, that's an interesting thing. Anyway, we'll see what happens, and we'll talk about it on Thursday. But we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. Okay, Scott, that's the show. We'll be back on Friday with more.

Please read us out. Today's show is produced by Larry Naiman, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie and her Todd engineered this episode. Thanks also to Jude Burrows and Neil Saverio. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of audio. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot

from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com slash pod. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Cara, I will see you in Scotland.