Pivot - How Big Tech is Responding to Russia, with guest Nicole Perlroth

Episode Date: March 1, 2022

Russia’s invasion of Ukraine causes trouble for Big Tech players. Kara and Scott discuss its effects on moderation, monetization, and cybersecurity with journalist Nicole Perlroth. Plus, the CDC says most of the country can go maskless, and Elon Musk has more trouble with the SEC. And big news for Pivot fans: You can WATCH video clips from Pivot on Salesforce+. Find Nicole on Twitter at @nicoleperlroth. Send us your Listener Mail questions by calling us at 855-51-PIVOT, or via Yappa, at nymag.com/pivot. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Support for Pivot comes from Virgin Atlantic. Too many of us are so focused on getting to our destination that we forgot to embrace the journey. Well, when you fly Virgin Atlantic, that memorable trip begins right from the moment you check in. On board, you'll find everything you need to relax, recharge, or carry on working. Buy flat, private suites, fast Wi-Fi, hours of entertainment, delicious dining, and warm, welcoming service that's designed around you. delicious dining and warm, welcoming service that's designed around you. Check out virginatlantic.com for your next trip to London data, and a matching engine that helps you find quality candidates fast. Listeners of this show can get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at Indeed.com slash podcast.

Just go to Indeed.com slash podcast right now and say you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? You need Indeed. Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.

And I have a new boss, Kara. Who? Oh, Chris Licht, yes. Yeah, you know him. Can you tell me? I do. He came up to me at an event, and I think it was a New York Times event that Andrew Ross Sorkin was doing, and he said how much he loved Pivot, I recall, and how much he

was a big fan and et cetera, which is the only reason I like him but um and gave me his card and it turned out he was colbert's showrunner obviously and i was like oh i've always wanted to have colbert on and went on and on about that but he's got great reputation obviously colbert's a great show and has really done great through the pandemic and is very smart um he did morning joe he created that um so he's he's a very well-liked. I can tell you that. Like, it's really interesting. Usually you get someone and they're like, oh, that asshole.

But he's very well-liked. People like him and are very happy for his success. I think it was a very canny move by David Zasloff. He's also very journalistically oriented, which is good for CNN, I think. And I have to say, I think through this Ukraine crisis, they have shown how good they are, right? In terms of getting into the country,

doing reporting, they're really leading instead of like people pontificating, they're actually reporting. And that's, I think their strongest. The reporters of CNN really get the short shrift in terms of the entire network gets attacked because of a lot of the blabbity blab, essentially. And I think it's really nice to see reporters on the ground doing their job and really being helpful.

And I'm sure their ratings are up. That's not why that's not a good reason to be up. But it's still I'm really impressed by their coverage. And I'm totally tuned in to CNN and on this whole thing. I don't know what you think. Yeah, I feel the same way. I've been watching a lot of CNN and I find, you know, you see a lot of people not only doing good journalism, but you forget. It's not a safe job.

You're taking real risks. a safe job you're taking real risks and it's um i i remember it harkens back to uh i remember at the times the managing editor at the time and his name was bill keller i had to excuse himself from dinner because he was negotiating for the release of one of his journalists from the taliban or yeah and and it was just you think gosh that's i'm wondering when you go to when you go to Columbia School of Journalism, are you really signing up for that? But I've been, and granted, I don't watch a lot of Fox, but I haven't seen as many people with kind of boots on the ground as CNN. So, you're right, I think it's a nice moment. You know, Fox has a bunch of reporters there. It's commentators, except for Jennifer Griffin, who's amazing at Fox, who keeps schooling

everybody there every time they say something wrong. She's like, and that is inaccurate. I feel she's doing God's work over at Fox News. But they have some very good reporters on the ground. But CNN is dominating in terms of the visuals. Obviously, the New York Times is doing a great job, the Washington Post, as they always do. But it gives you a good idea of why they got so popular during various international crises. And it's very useful. A lot of reporters you don't see that often. And they're all great. They're all doing really very moving stuff.

They're doing great reports. You feel like you understand what's happening. You feel like you understand what's happening. I think they're keeping the politics to a minimum, except when Trump says something idiotic or one of the, you know. But then again, they also report a lot of Republicans are very supportive of Ukraine. And so it's good. It's really good. It's a good sign.

I think it's a good hire. More importantly, how does this affect Scott? Well, I'll tell him you're great. I don't know. He likes me. That's not what I was looking for, Auntie Kara. I don't know. He's a late night guy. That plays well to the dog.

No, he did Morning Joe. He did Colbert. He did Colbert. But there's a lot going on on that show that's very pertinent to now and funny, news and funny. So you're in a good place. Oh, my God. I've just figured it out. I'm the new Mika.

It was so obvious. We talked about this. I'm clearly the new Mika. You need Joe to come over, Joe Karaswisher. Anyway, just so you know, speaking of video and being the new Mika, you have far less hair than she does. I do have nice legs. It's a big day for us at Pivot now.

Instead of just listening to us, you can see us as well. What a thrill. What a thrill. Okay. All right. Select portions of each show will be available in video form on Salesforce Plu, as I like to call it. It's Salesforce Plus. So head to salesforce.com slash plus and sign up to watch. It's the best price of all free. That's right. He really is that ugly. I, of course, have a cold sore to inaugurate this, and I look really tired. All my children were home last night.

And I'm going to my dermatologist this afternoon and get about eight pounds of flesh cut off of me. What a thrill. There's a reason we're podcasters, Kara. A nice scar. A nice scar. But anyway, we're here on video. We're happy to be here. We're excited for you to see us in action and reacting to this long, long, long podcast love story between us is going to now be in video.

It's very exciting. In touch with your emotions. No, I'm really not. Okay. We've got a lot to talk about from Russia's invasion of Ukraine, how tech giants are responding, challenges to the financial sector. And we'll talk with The New York Times' Nicole Perlroth about Russian cyber attacks. And also on the home front, we'll talk about a new CDC guidance around masking, even as truckers come into D.C. soon. Although I think that story's moved along as they're trucking along. I think we should send the trucker convoy to Ukraine.

That would be really good. Anyway, but first, the Senate wants to know if TikTok is contributing to teen eating disorders. Anyway, but first, the Senate wants to know if TikTok is contributing to teen eating disorders. In a letter to TikTok, Senators Amy Klobuchar and Tammy Baldwin asking for details about content that promotes unhealthy eating. There's quite a bit of it on TikTok. There's also healthy eating stuff there. I've watched a lot of it recently. TikTok announced in December that it would update its algorithm to combat the issue.

They're very quite responsive. TikTok is much more responsive than the other. They don't want to. They've seen the trouble Instagram and others have gotten into. So it's interesting. And then there was a really interesting New York Times column this week saying there's no real proof of this yet. It's just the beginning of research.

So it was sort of on face, taking Facebook side that nobody knows yet. Didn't say they didn't do it. The research is still nascent and we shouldn't make those causal correlations or whatever you call it. I'm not a social scientist. Anyway, what do you think about this? TikTok's doing this.

You know, I was disappointed. I was disappointed because I like TikTok and I've always thought TikTok was a bit more joyous. And I like the fact that there's a lot of people say I was kicked off a TikTok or banned and I don't know why. I like the fact that they're erring on, well, we don't know, let's just kick them off or suspend them for two weeks. I think that we need more of that in social media. The disappointing thing is, I mean, this jars you because if you, I have a close friend from business school whose daughter suffered from an eating disorder and getting an arm's distance view of that, you just see how terrifying it is.

You know, watching, and the way my friend described it is, you're watching your daughter slowly kill herself over two years, and you can't do anything about it, or you feel helpless to do anything about it. And this, I want to be clear, this story ends well. I went on to college, it's doing really well. But I'd always kind of hoped that TikTok would just be better. And I actually think they're trying to be better. But when you think of the Wall Street Journal, there's some great reporting here. And it had its bots sort of go deep and start watching

dieting content. And the algorithms immediately go, oh, they love this. And our job is for affirmation. So we're going to take them further and further into this hermetically sealed bubble and make dangerous content seem normal. And I was trying to think about it. When you think about what these bots and these algorithms do, if I walked into a bar and there was artificial intelligence watching my every mood, and it found when I was taking a sip of a drink and it saw that I ordered a Zacapa and Coke or a Diplomatico on the rocks or whatever it is. And it said, okay, at this moment, he ordered a second and the second was also Zacapa and Coke. The algorithm would immediately go, all right, line up six, have them ready. And when the lights go down and he laughs or he's ready for another drink before he even stops drinking, put another one in front of him.

And that's what these algorithms do. These algorithms take a social drinking and turn it into alcoholism, just in artificially driven format. Look, I think as you read this New York Times article, I do think more research is needed. I think, of course, the teen girls thing got more attention from politicians because it sounds good. But I do think clear that these companies should make available their research on this and use it as a way to understand this, how this happens. And so one of the things that's important is we don't quite know what is the effect. Because

listen, I was in college, like half of the girls around me had an eating disorder. I remember doing an article on one that was just disturbing, and I'm not going to go into it because it was so disturbing, interviewing this young woman who had an eating disorder. And I did a piece for the student newspaper because it was not a lot of people knew about it way back in the dark ages when I was in college. But this is not a new thing. It's just the ability to, just like, you know, there's a great story by Megan Toohey, and I can't remember who she did it with, but it was great about suicide assist, people assisting each other to how to commit suicide. It's just become, it becomes more, it becomes easier to

find people online and have you help you and give you these tools. And when you're seeing these things on TikTok, and TikTok is fairly addictive, you start looking at them, you want to do that, you start watching more, you start watching more. All I get is air fryers right now, for example. I'm obsessed with air fryers, and therefore I get all kinds of air fryer content. But it's really- It's an interesting way you get served, isn't it? Yeah. Oh, I get food, food, food, and that's about it, food, food, which is interesting because I've started to look because I like watching people cook and see what they make. But reinforcement is not great here. And so I think opening the research up.

You didn't ask me what I get. What do you get? You didn't ask me what I get. Because I don't want to know. Tell me. What do you get? I get dogs, which makes sense. Yeah.

I get dogs, which makes sense. Yeah. I get chiropractors adjusting people, which I did not know I was fascinated with, but I am. Oh, that's very pleasing. I need to start finding that. Go ahead. It's really relaxing to watch someone get their back adjusted. And I get people talking about social justice who forgot to put on their bra. It's the dog, the dog algorithm yeah

this is where you get on video you get care is like oh interesting interesting it's true i get this these ridiculously fucking hot people who forgot to put on their bras talking about really important social issues and i'm so there for it i'm so there for it all right okay in any case more research, more transparency. Also, Amy Klobuchar has a bill about transparency of this research. It should be open to researchers so they can understand it. Period. We love Senator Kaye.

We love Senator Kaye. We do. We don't know why, but we do. All right. Elon Musk troubles with the SEC don't seem to be going anywhere. Again, this week, the agency reportedly investigating Musk and his brother, Kimball, for possible insider trading. Kimball Musk sold off $100 million of stock one day before Elon's Twitter poll last November. Kimball also sits on Tesla's board of directors.

You know, I think they're testing the SEC and what it can do, enforcement. He's not the first member of Mark Cuban got in that fight with the SEC. He's not the first member of Mark Cuban got in that fight with the SEC. So they're truly testing the SEC to see if it has any teeth, which is interesting in some ways. Again, this is all allegations. But the beef between Elon Musk and the SEC is going to be an interesting one to see where it goes. Yeah, I think – so I picked a title for my book. It's called Adrift, American 100 Charts.

And you've obviously been asking me a lot about my book. Not. But anyways, when you think about it – Adrift? Adrift. Well, we've lost faith in our institutions. We're not having as much social interaction. We're not having as much sex. I like it.

Adrift. We don't trust the institutions, whether it's the military or Congress or the church to help bring us back together again. And so we are, our discourse is coarse. We immediately start with hating 50% of our brothers and sisters. We think a transgender

swimmer or a conservative podcaster are the enemy, not 180,000 troops pouring across the Ukrainian border. I mean, Ukraine, not the enemy, not 180,000 troops pouring across the Ukrainian border. I mean, Ukraine, not the Ukraine, but Ukraine. But you can say the Ukrainian border, you see. Yes, that's correct. Thank you for that. No problem. And a big component of this is that we lack this preoccupation or this idolization or sycophancy around the individual versus institutions that, oh, if you're willing to stick up your middle finger in the face of our great institutions,

including the SEC, which creates a set of protocols and standards such that we can have capital formation in the form of the public markets, these are good people trying to do good work. And if you have information that the public doesn't have and you trade on that, it creates a lack of faith in the markets. And no one's going to buy your stock when you try and go public. So I'm on the side of the SEC. And when you have the founder's brother selling $100 million in stock the day before he takes a poll that's basically saying I'm going to sell the stock, that warrants an investigation. And maybe they're going to find there was nothing there.

the stock, that warrants an investigation. And maybe they're going to find there was nothing there. Their defense will be, or my defense if I was the SEC lawyer or the lawyer representing Musk would be, he actually filed with the SEC that he was going to sell. So there isn't an asymmetry of information here. But anyone who has over $10 million in stock and is on a board should do planned sales. And that is, I'm going to sell this much on this date. Yeah. Because you just subject yourself to scrutiny and you create the illusion of impropriety, which the firm doesn't need and the markets don't need. I have to say, I think the SEC should just do its job. You know what I mean?

I think that's what they're trying to do. They're trying, but they're always sort of, you know, it's an interesting, they haven't been winning here. I'll tell you that. They don't feel, it doesn't feel like they have him reined in in any way. And so- Oh, well, that's clear. So that's- I think they feel outgunned.

I think every year they get their budgets cut and he hires 100 lawyers. And- And he has the public stage. And every elected official wants to seem younger. They want to seem 95, not 98. So they want to talk about our innovators. Yeah. And the SEC is an easy target because it's faceless and it appears to be trying to reign.

It's like the IRS. But I mean, this is what's dangerous about the markets right now. The key to functioning markets that gives people confidence is that no one individual, based their id or whatever can move the markets or no one organization has an inside information. And when you have one guy who goes on SNL and says Dogecoin is a hustle and it collapses or says after selling his crypto, after his company sells their Bitcoin in order to plug a hole in their earnings estimates and then decides he doesn't like it because it's bad for the environment. And then his brother is trading $100 million the day before he indicates to the marketplace that he's probably going to sell. The SEC really does need to step in here. And the problem is, to your point, when the SEC did step in and fine Elon, he not only ignored those fines and guidelines, he's not supposed to be tweeting without someone

reviewing his tweets. He seems to be waving his middle finger in the face of the SEC saying, I am bigger than you. And wants the money back. Yeah. He also wants the money back. There's all kinds of things going on with him. I think he's challenging those rules.

He's saying this stop sign I don't agree with and let me just go through it until you either remove the stop sign or actually stop me. And so those, I think that's actually, he's in a much, it's sort of like a Trump-like way to behave because, you know, I'm just going to keep blowing stop signs until someone stops me. And guess what? Nobody's going to, like, I could walk down Fifth Avenue and shoot someone. I'm above the law. Yeah. I think it's interesting. Speaking of not above the law, let's get on to our first big story.

The Russian invasion of Ukraine is playing out on social media and tech giants are caught in the crossfire. Facebook says it has been partially restricted in Russia because it continues to fact check Russian media against that government's wishes. Twitter appears to be restricted in Russia as well. Meanwhile, Alphabet announced that it would demonetize the accounts of Russian state-funded media on platforms like YouTube. Meta has made a similar announcement, adding that the Russian state media is also banned from running ads on its platforms. The moves came one day after Senator Mark Warner called on social media companies to

demonetize Russian state-funded media on their platforms. Also, Ukraine's head is calling for that. Everybody, they're creating all these hacking teams and et cetera, et cetera, to deal with Russia. So talk about if this has helped American companies have new legs to stand up to the Russian regime. And when the conflict is over, will Google let Russia's state-sponsored outlets run ads on YouTube again?

I think social media is actually getting it right here. And I think they've done the calculus. And these aren't big markets. And they've gotten so much warranted shit for their lack of regard for the Commonwealth that I think they're trying to do the right thing here. Or at least that's my sense. But it's exciting to see that. And social media is often compared to cigarettes. I don't think that's the right analogy. I don't think there's any reason to smoke cigarettes. I think they're more like opiates. And that is, I actually think opiates, and they do, opiates play an important role in medicine when used correctly. They're very powerful and effective painkillers in certain situations. Unfortunately, the people running the company that was distributing, manufacturing,

distributing opiates didn't give a good goddamn about the well-being of people and took it to a very, very ugly place. And I think that's really where social media is. But we're seeing the benefits, I think, of social media around this, and that is the Russian population seems very distressed about this, about this unlawful invasion, and have actually gained the confidence to turn out in numbers and protests. And I think a lot of that is because of social media. Well, some of the Russian people, the young people, apparently. There's a young old divide here that's rather profound from what I understand from reading all about it. But go ahead. But it's bigger than I would have expected.

I think it's actually quite encouraging. And it feels like it's building momentum. I don't know how much of it is controlled or is spun up by our own media and our own desire to make it seem bigger than it is. But I remember posting on my feed a picture of a lone woman, a journalist, protesting. And now there are what, in St. Petersburg, it looks like there are very real protests. And I would imagine that social media is playing a, the bottom line is no boomer or none of us can control. I think social media has made communication more porous. And it has a lot of drawbacks, but I do believe it has some benefits. I don't know. I feel like we've seen

this story before when they kill the leader, whatever, it's Navalny or any others. But they had protests around Crimea and went nowhere. So I just – the annexation. And so I just feel like this happens. They rise up and the police strike them down, really. We'll see. I mean, I think one of the problems is whether how much information is getting through. I think – I'll tell you what's getting through. You can't get money out of the

bank. That's what's starting to get through. You're not going to be able to, you know, oddly enough, Russian models on OnlyFans say they can't get paid because of sanction. They can't fly to the U.S. The oligarchs are getting squeezed. They can hear that. You know, they don't need social media to hear that. And so whether they're getting good information or not in Russia about what's happening versus most of the world can see what's happening because there's so much video coming out all over the place. But it's questionable whether... You do start to think like, okay, if they're going to restrict Russia, there's all kinds of misinformation on Fox News. Someone wrote me, well, it's only a hop, skip, and a jump to Fox. And I was like, no, they shouldn't do that to Fox.

I know, but I was like, but there is a lot of misinformation on there or just stupid takes, essentially. And the only person pushing back on Fox is a Fox, this Fox national security correspondent, Jennifer Griffin, who I mentioned, who's doing an astonishing job saying no. And I feel like I need to correct some of the things that Colonel Doug McGregor just said, because, and I'm not sure 10 minutes is enough time to do so, because there were so many distortions in what he just said. It'll be interesting because Ukraine's vice prime minister asked Tim Cook to block the app store for users in the Russian Federation. It starts to get a little dicey, I think, in some way. Like, why should all of Russia pay for its government? It's trying to put the squeeze on Russia, obviously, the government.

But it starts to get, huh, this is interesting. I don't know. I wouldn't want that to happen in this country. So I'm a little bit torn on both sides of this thing. What do you think? I'm all down with putting a lot of pressure, especially on the wealthiest Russians. And I think that one of the most likely means that this could come to some sort of a peaceful end would be that the wealthiest people in Russia feel real pain and their businesses and kind of middle class on up. And to a certain extent, people do have to take some responsibility for the leaders that are in power.

And I think what's going on here, and I wouldn't call it soft power, I'd call it the power of capitalism, but it creates so many incentives to garner wealth such that to the point when you're in Courcheval, they have Russian menus. wealth such that to the point when you're in Courcheval, they have Russian menus. I would like, I think the most effective means of pushing back on Russia, other than German taking what I think is a leadership move around sending stingers, anti-tank armaments, is in fact going after their pocketbooks. Because we have become a global world, and when people get wealthy, they don't want to party on the Odessa. They want to come to St. Bart's. And everyone has a boss. Yeah. My favorite Twitter feed right now is the Twitter feed highlighting all of the yachts that are owned by Russian oligarchs. And you're starting to see people say, well, we'd rather not let them dock here. Yeah.

And you have their crews quitting. Yeah. I mean, there's some dumb stuff. One crew made a mess of a ship. Yeah. He said he regretted nothing in Spain. He trashed it. Or he sunk it.

He half sunk it, I think, or something like that. And you want to talk about Russia thought, I think they were emboldened by this because they are, you know, they produce, I think it's 10 million barrels a day. So that's with 100 bucks per crew, that's a billion dollars a day. And a lot of it they hold in foreign reserve currencies, so they don't care if the ruble crashes. Russia what we did to Iran when they took the hostages and just say, okay, you can call in your 10 billion euros from HSBC and we're just going to say no. I mean, capitalism, and I'm skipping to my win here, capitalism is powerful because it creates interconnectedness. And also, money is a really powerful drug. It is, indeed. Indeed. So So anyways, I'm here for it. One of the things that I do think they should deal with, social media networks have so many fake and doctored videos. Instagram accounts that present people as war journalists are actually run by meme posters. There's a video that purports to show the ghost of Kiev.

Fighter Jet is actually from a decade-old video game. So that they absolutely have to clean up right away, no matter where it goes. It's interesting, Elon Musk, speaking of Elon Musk, said the Starlink internet system is now active in Ukraine. This is where they can get, so Russia can't cut them off quite as easily, which is interesting. Uber has suspended services in several cities. Google Maps has disabled live traffic feature in Ukraine. And Airbnb is offering free short-term housing for up to 100,000 refugees from there, which is, you know, they've done that before and they're doing it again. That's a lot of people they're putting up for free. So it's just, what's interesting is

the economic actions like Switzerland, which never sides with anybody, announced sanctions. It will freeze the assets of sanctioned individuals. Western nations plan to cut some Russian banks from SWIFT, which could have far-reaching economic impacts. My goodness. Western leaders are making moves to cut off the Russian central bank, and that'll be a problem. And a task force is forming to go after cars, homes, yachts of the ultra-wealthy.

I do think this is probably, you know, they're already calling for peace. The billionaires are suddenly peaceniks, which I think will be interesting. And, you know, it's all playing out on social media. Where are you getting most of your information from Twitter and cable, right? Twitter, essentially. There's some amazing stuff. Well, actually, I get a lot of my information with the BBC and CNN, but I think everybody has an obligation and has the opportunity to play a role here. And it's more than just posting a GIF of a Ukrainian flag on Instagram. And just because I always like to take the moment to virtue signal over the weekend, I spent time on the phone. I'm on the board of a unicorn SaaS company and we have Russian investors and we effectively kicked the board member off. And we've decided that,

yeah, legally, we may lose on this. But we want to be part of a signal. This is a company that was chairman, was a Navy SEAL. We have two servicemen who are very senior in the company. And I called them and said, you guys have special license and residence here. You have fought for your country. And we came to a pretty crisp decision that we felt it was important that very strong and consistent signals be sent back to wealthy people in Russia, which I believe will roll up, that this, when you, you know, the governance of a company and whether we're legally within our bounds of the share purchase agreement to do this sort of pales in comparison to the risks that are, that are, the Russian leadership has decided to take with the world here.

Yeah. And I think if you really. I would worry a little bit. He's so on, he seems so unhinged at this point and he has his finger on the nuclear button, no matter how you how you – that threat over the weekend was disturbing. Anyone who lives in Washington, D.C., certainly. Yeah, but here's the thing. Everybody has a boss. And the 10, the 20, the 50 people who have influence over him all have one thing in common, and that is they're billionaires. And they take advantage of that.

And the way they take advantage of that, you don't have a summer house in Yakutsk. You have a summer house in Portofino. And I think this is the way we get this over with. And that is the most powerful and wealthiest people. I think it comes down to money because the bottom line is when Khrushchev went into Cuba, the people advising him weren't worried about not being able to go to Disneyland. Yeah. They didn't give a shit.

Their power was internal. Their accoutrements or lifestyles were a function of what was happening internally on their borders. That is no longer true. Yep, that's fair. You make a fair point. But I think the one person who's taking most advantage of this is the head of Ukraine, Zelensky. But I think the one person who's taking most advantage of this is the head of Ukraine, Zelensky. He's playing this beautifully on social media in terms of appearing, looking simple, smart, T-shirts.

Now I'm wearing this. He's really, boy, does he know how to, and I'm not going to use, I don't know, to use social media to his advantage. And I think that's really sort of. Yeah, Shecky Green becomes Winston Churchill. Yeah, that's what Jon Stewart said. Yeah. I mean, not just that. He's just, he understands the visual imagery. Yeah, that's what Don Stewart said. Yeah. I mean, not just that. He understands the visual imagery. Oh, come on.

He's out of central casting. He's got a beautiful family. He's Jewish. I mean, the guy, he refuses to leave. He's using it. I'm watching everything that he's doing, and it's really— We offer to give him exile. I don't need a ride.

I need ammunition. This is a bit of a Twitter war in a lot of ways, how to do that. And the Russians usually have a brutal way to do it. And it's sneaky. And this is right out in the open. Anyway, we'll see what happens. He's still in a lot of danger. Let's be clear.

Real danger, not digital danger. Speaking of which, by the way, the Russians have huge amounts of troops. Let's talk about reality as brute force often wins in these things. Anyway, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, the latest recommendations of masking from CDC. We'll speak with a friend of Pivot, Nicole Poroth, about what the war in Ukraine means for cybersecurity.

Of course, we've had her on before, and she's an expert on the area, and she's quite worried. So when we get back. Fox Creative. This is advertiser content from Zelle. When you picture an online scammer, what do you see? For the longest time, we have these images of somebody sitting crouched over their computer with a hoodie on, just kind of typing away in the middle of the night. And honestly, that's not what it is anymore.

That's Ian Mitchell, a banker turned fraud fighter. These days, online scams look more like crime syndicates than individual con artists. And they're making bank. Last year, scammers made off with more than $10 billion. It's mind-blowing to see the kind of infrastructure that's been built to facilitate scamming at scale. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of scam centers all around the world. These are very savvy business people. These are organized criminal rings.

And so once we understand the magnitude of this problem, we can protect people better. One challenge that fraud fighters like Ian face is that scam victims sometimes feel too ashamed to discuss what happened to them. But Ian says one of our best defenses is simple. We need to talk to each other. We need to have those awkward conversations around what do you do if you have text messages you don't recognize? What do you do if you start getting asked to send information that's more sensitive? Even my own father fell victim to a, thank goodness, a smaller dollar scam, but he fell victim and we have these

conversations all the time. So we are all at risk and we all need to work together to protect each other. Learn more about how to protect yourself at vox.com slash Zelle. And when using digital payment platforms, remember to only send money to people you know and trust. Thumbtack presents the ins and outs of caring for your home. Out. Uncertainty. Self-doubt. Stressing about not knowing where to start. In. Plans and guides that make it easy to get home projects done. Out. Word art. Sorry, live laugh lovers.

In. Knowing what to do, when to do it, and who to hire. Start caring for your home with confidence. Download Thumbtack today. Scott, we're back. The CDC says that most of the country can now go maskless under new guidance. The agency says that nearly 70% of the country lives in areas where the COVID risk is low or medium. They can remove their masks.

New York Governor Kathy Hochul was clearly listening on Saturday. She ended the state's mask mandates for schools. And President Biden will make a push to get federal workers back to the office, an announcement that could come as early as tonight in his State of the Union address, by the way. That's going to be something. We'll see what he says there. Meanwhile, Washington is preparing another big Capitol event. A trucker convoy is making its way from California to the Beltway in a copycat protest of Canada's Freedom Convoy. And so we'll see what they do. But this time, the National Guard is deployed and ready for them as opposed to what happened at the Capitol on January 6th. So I think they'll

see a little bit more pushback. And I don't know if people are going to be, once this is off, it's like, what are you doing? Anyway, the CDC had made a similar announcement last May and then had to reverse itself after Delta swept the nation. So we'll see. We'll see. We'll see. What do you think? Yeah, I think, I mean, we're all hopeful, right? Especially with kids. And the sad part is that we go into this, whatever you want to call it, steady state or, you know, treating the virus as endemic at 68% vaccination versus 95% for other countries, despite the fact that we own the supply chain, that we spend more money, that we goddamn invented these incredible gifts, vaccines. And we have, as a result, we have the highest per capita morbidity. So it's a moment, hopefully it's a moment, I don't want to call it a celebration, but relief, but it's also a moment for reflection of we go into this. There's just

not getting around it, Cara. A lot of people are still going to die here. Yeah. 2,000 people lives lost Friday, according to the CDC, and there are more than 70,000 new cases last Friday. So just to be clear, it's still here. Yeah. And it's like, okay, maybe endemic is a term that you decide you're going to live with it. And it's just a shame that we are going to be living with more death than we needed to. And so I find it kind of, I don't want to call it bittersweet. I'm terrible with, you know, I try to be thoughtful about masking. But I think at this point, unless there's a very serious variant, I get the sense people aren't going back. Yeah, I would agree. I would agree.

I think he sees this coming off. You know, I think people are looser and feeling better. But, well, you know, just think people are looser and feeling better. But, well, you know, just be aware. This is a long slog, and I know everybody's tired. And the people who have tried their best, you know, and not been a jerk about it, right? Like, people have been very worried, and maybe some people have been too worried, and that's okay. So, we'll see where it goes. Well, you mentioned Governor Hochul. She signed a statement, and it might seem very symbolic,

my grandstanding, that the state of New York's not going to work with Russian companies. Yeah. I think that's important. A lot of states, Pennsylvania isn't going to buy some Russian goods in its liquor stores. You realize the only thing you really buy from, what are you going to do about vodka there, Scott? This is actually a category I have some domain expertise in. Stolichnaya is produced in Finland. Smirnoff is produced, I think, in Illinois. So what I would argue is you would be shocked how many different ways you may have not have thought of that you are linked to Russia and

you can have an impact. Pouring out your Smirnoff, your Stoli is not one of them. Ignore vodka. This has nothing to do with vodka. It's about, are you involved with companies? Can you put pressure on consumer companies? Can you put pressure on your state government, whatever it is, to hurt Russia in terms of their pocketbook? That's actual Russian things. I don't think we probably use a lot of... People just think vodka naturally, I guess. Vodka doesn't... I mean, Russia doesn't really export anything but oil. Yeah, yeah. That's 40% of their economy. The biggest move, I think, thatodka doesn't, I mean, Russia doesn't really export anything but oil. Yeah, yeah. That's 40% of their economy.

The biggest move, I think, that people aren't talking about, everyone's obsessed with the SWIFT network. The EU has said that Russian planes are no longer welcome in their airspace. That is a big deal. Right. I mean, one of the wonderful things that's happened, I would bet when, again, I'm going back to Khrushchev. We're back to Russia, but let's go to CDC.

But go ahead. Go ahead. Okay. I'm sorry. Let's talk about masks. All right. So masks. I am bet when, again, I'm going back to cruise ship. We're back to Russia, but let's go to CDC. But go ahead. Okay, I'm sorry. Let's talk about masks. I am so Mika. I know, you really are Mika. Mika does not want a mask. You're off. You wandered. Mika wanders, you wandered. So, Mika, what is... I feel Mika-like. I'm stealth. I'm sexy. I'm smart. I'm going to introduce you to Mika.

Mika's an interesting... I would die. Would you? It's easy. We'll have a little lunch with her in New York. You know, you always say that. No, we will. We will. She keeps saying, let's have lunch. Dan Stiller texted me. He and I are going to roll.

Oh, no. I'm too nervous to do it. I think I just like the idea of us being friends. You can see his fabulous head of hair. But let's do masks. We'll see where people are. I do think I see lots of people who used to be, a.k.a. Amanda, a lot more worried or not as worried.

Do you remember when we went to dinner in Palm Beach? Oh, did you? I took you to this fabulous place, Bagatelle, and everyone's partying and having a good time, and the two of you are sitting there with your masks on, at dinner, seated. At dinner, seated, you had your masks on. You know what? To each his own. That's what I say.

Come on, that was a little too premature. A little too premature. You know what? To each his own. That's what I say. Come on. That was a little too premature. A little too premature. You know it was. We were seated at a dinner table with open windows. I understand. But the people of Florida were like coughing on us. Come on. We don't trust the Florida people.

And are correct not to do so in many ways. So anyway, I think people are ready to move on. They still, please be careful. Please get vaccinated, as Jared Paulus and others have said. Just get vaccinated, and you're way, way ahead of the curve if you do that. If you do that, and you're ready to go, and you, you know, be very careful. I have to say, I will keep wearing masks during the winter in lots of ways, because I didn't get a cold this winter.

Again, I've had, like, very few. I get cold after cold after cold, and I have not gotten any. And it's the only thing that's changed, really. I get cold after cold after cold, and I have not gotten any. And it's the only thing that's changed, really. I don't even, I can't even. There are cultures that wear masks when they travel as a courtesy to the people around them. Yeah, I don't want people breathing all over me. Anyway, it's made me aware of that, and I'm going to continue to do so.

I don't care what people say. Anyway, now let's bring on our friend of Pivot. Nicole Perlroth covers cybersecurity and digital espionage and serves as an advisor for CISA, the U.S. government's cybersecurity agency. She's the author of This Is How They Tell Me The World Ends, which covers the history of her field from World War II to today. And she's amazing. All right. Welcome, Nicole. How are you doing? I'm not very good. I know. Okay. Tell me why, because you've been quite, you've been reporting at the rise in ransomware attacks since the pandemic began. The American government had blamed Russian hackers

for some of the most notable ones, the Colonial Pipeline, JBS, SolarWinds. So tell me why not very good, because your tweets are freaking me out. I got to tell you, freaking me out. Well, I think from what I've covered over the last 10 years, the potential for a cyber escalation here is very high. I don't think Americans realize how vulnerable we are, how vulnerable our critical infrastructure is. You just mentioned colonial pipeline, all it took to neutralize the biggest conduit for gas and jet fuel and diesel on the Eastern seaboard was a lack of two-factor authentication. Don't let a good crisis go to waste. People are waking up to the cyber threat. Boards are asking important questions about cyber defense and basic cyber hygiene, but we're still nowhere compared to where we need to be to withstand a serious escalation.

It's interesting that we haven't actually seen much on the cyber war front yet. I thought Putin was going to take the power out before he invaded Ukraine. He didn't do that. And there's various theories why. But so far, it's been sort of this lower level tit for tat. this new Ukraine IT army that's recruiting people into these kind of low-level denial of service attacks. It's been Russia launching wiper attacks that wipe data at the various Ukrainian government ministries. But I'm just watching to see, you know, where will the inflection point be? Where will things escalate? When you think about this, what attacks should we see? What are you so – you said this is going to be the moment that our lack of attention on cyber defense and cyber hygiene comes to bite us. So what do I mean by that? I mean, we are asking the government to defend the country from national security threats and cybersecurity

threats. But 80% of our critical infrastructure is in private sector hands. Those companies have zero mandate in terms of needing to use two-factor authentication or strong password requirements, or even to look and see if there's any suspicious activity on their networks. They don't have to tell the government if they've been breached. They don't have to tell the government if they've paid out a ransomware group. And what that means is that there are vulnerabilities everywhere. In some cases, Russian ransomware groups and maybe nation state groups already have the access they would need to pull off an act of cyber sabotage. So that's the bad news. And that's where I fear escalation could go. I think that said, this has been a big learning moment. This last

year of ransomware attacks has been a big learning moment. This last year of ransomware attacks has been a big learning moment for a lot of organizations. And so I've never seen better collaboration with CISA, government agency. There's a lot of discussions happening in real time, a lot of threat sharing happening in real time. But again, we're just nowhere close to where we need to be to withstand some attack. And what I've been saying is, like, the next major geopolitical conflict will involve cyber attacks. And the country that can survive that conflict will look like a digital Israel, you know, a country that can basically withstand attacks from hostile nations all around it. And right now, the United States is not that country.

Not that country. Okay. Let me ask Scott, go ahead, because Scott is on the boards of a lot of companies. He's certainly mentioned that he just hands over whatever money the CTO asks for on things like this. But go ahead, Scott. Well, so America has purposely said from the get-go, we're going to show restraint in an effort to avoid any sort of escalation with traditional military hardware, where troops are off the table. Whether you think that was a good or a bad idea, America said we're not doing it. It sounds like what you're saying is Russia has not gone full gangster with their capabilities around cyber attack. In your mind, I'm just thinking about the large implications here. Does it show that maybe Putin isn't as crazy as we're worried about? Because you haven't heard about hospital systems incurring what might be an attack or any

sort of reprisals. And then that leads into my second question. I always thought, and this may be arrogance, that we're the biggest kid on the block in terms of our ability to wreak havoc in terms of cyber. The body language I'm getting from you is that that is not the case. So one, what does it say that they haven't ramped up their attacks to the extent we were fearful of? And don't we have the biggest stick in the fight? So I think those two questions are connected.

And I actually do think the United States is still the top dog on offense. Nobody has pulled off anything close to the attack the United States and Israel pulled off together on Iran's nuclear facilities. You're going to say that, yeah. Stuxnet. But they've gotten very close. And the actor that has gotten the closest is Russia. I can just talk about what I reported in the Times. We've caught them probing our grid. There was a screenshot a couple of years ago that showed Russian hackers with their hands on the switches of the controls. They actually pulled back, right? I think your reporting said they actually decided,

okay, we didn't expect to get this far. We're going to pull back. Yeah, they've had the access. They've had the capabilities. We saw them turn off the lights in Ukraine twice. But what they never had until now was the geopolitical impetus to pull the trigger. And that comes back to your first question. You know, why haven't they pulled the trigger yet? Maybe they are more fearful of a cyber escalation with the United States than I've given them credit for. You know, a couple years ago, David Sanger and I reported in the Times that Cyber Command had been hacking the Russian grid and making a loud show of it. And when we went to the National Security Council, this was 2018, and said, we're about to report out the story that you've been hacking the Russian grid, what say you? They basically said, we have

no problems with you publishing the story. In other words, we want Russia to know that we can do the same to them as they've done to Ukraine, and that they better think twice before they try and pull some of that here. And so maybe there is some of this mutually assured digital destruction playing out right now. We don't know. We'll see. Why isn't there a worldwide, you know, we have nuclear proliferation talks, we have about chemicals, they're not always perfect, but they're there, right? Why hasn't there been that happening worldwide? Is it just that they can hide this versus missiles? They can't really hide missiles, you can sort of see chemical attacks, torture, everything else. Why hasn't there been an

international consortium of this happening? Well, there have been people pushing for what they call a digital Geneva Convention. Brad Smith at Microsoft is really leading the charge on that. Unfortunately, the problem is Vladimir Putin. Putin uses proxies to do a lot of these attacks, as does China, a lot of the really sophisticated attacks we see from China, come in the form of this sort of loose satellite network of private contractors that does its dirty work. You know, we've seen Russia basically tap cyber criminals to hack Yahoo a couple years ago. Yep. So when you're dealing with an actor like Putin, who said a couple years ago, hey, hackers are like artists that wake up in the morning in a good mood and start painting.

You know, I have no say over what they do or don't do. How do you establish norms with someone like that? And you're right, the attribution is tricky. And it's a low barrier to entry that this is where nuclear analogies really fall apart in cyber. You don't need fissile material. Right. And so you don't see anything like that ever happening, that it's impossible to police, in other words. Well, I think, you know, just on its face, it sounds like a no-brainer. We should all agree not to hack each other's elections, not to hack each other's hospitals, not to hack each other's hospitals, not to hack each other's grid. The problem is, what do you do with Vladimir Putin, who you can't trust,

that he's not going to just do that? Then you're essentially handcuffing yourself. And like we just said, the United States is probably still the top dog when it comes to offensive cyber capabilities. So why would we agree? But defense is a real problem. But defense is a real problem. I mean, you look at a count of which country in the world has been hit with the most high profile cyber attacks over the last five years. It's the United States. We are now among the most frequently targeted country by cyber attacks. By cyber attacks, yeah. Yeah, we're nowhere where we need to be.

What would be your one or two piece of advice to the administration and also to the CEOs of companies as it relates to some of the risks you've outlined? One, report incidents. Have a low barrier for what you're reporting. If you notice any suspicious activity on your network, report that to CISA. There's a lot they can do with that information. Two, empower your chief information security officer. Give them whatever they need to do.

Give them the tools that they need to hunt their networks for suspicious activity, to do inventory of their systems, to close down any port or server that is non-critical right now, do whatever they say. And then most importantly, turn on multi-factor authentication. I sound like a broken record. You do. 80% of the ransomware attacks we see in the United States could have been prevented with multi-factor authentication. It's so easy. It's so basic. And it's ridiculous that we don't just mandate it. But those are the three things. I think also the public, we should mandate reporting of incidents, you know, so that there's a fine if you don't do so, if we find it.

Guess who we have to blame for that, Kara? Let me guess. Senator Rick Scott. Okay, good. There was an attempt to push mandatory reporting for cyber incidents and ransom payouts in the last defense authorization bill. And guess who killed it? Rick Scott. Because? He said it was going to be too burdensome

for small businesses. So if something should happen, we can all thank Rick Scott. It's interesting you say that. I live in Florida, and I can think of two or three friends who are small and medium-sized business people who have had a cyber attack. And they do about 24 hours of navel gazing, and then they send $50,000 or $60,000 in Bitcoin. I mean, these criminals are very smart. They figure out what is the fulcrum between, oh, just pay them. And nobody ever knows about it. It's happening everywhere.

Right. And businesses and their cyber insurance policyholders, they basically have made this calculation that it's cheaper to just pay the ransom than the full cost of remediation. The problem is when you're just paying your extortionists, you don't know how they got in. They could still have access. So all those companies that paid those ransoms are potentially in position. These hackers are already in position to do something more like cyber sabotage. That's why it's really important to report these incidents and actually hunt down how they got in so you can make sure that you can keep them out. Okay, so let me ask two more questions. How do you assess how our tech companies, they've been doing a wide range of things, they've also been

blocked in Russia, how important are they to doing this? Not just cleaning up misinformation, but actually blocking. There's a difference between blocking Russian media or not letting them monetize themselves, which is more punitive, and actually making certain that good information gets through and bad information is sieved out, I guess. Yeah. I mean, to me, it's the bare minimum, you know, is RTs ultimate priority advertising revenue? No, you know, their ultimate priority is propaganda. Do we want to know what they're saying to their own population and everyone else? Yeah, sure. You know, I don't think we should block them. But I think there's a lot more that tech companies should be doing on misinformation. Now, that said, wow, Russia is losing the information war, you know, after years of BS, and then basically throwing fuel on every American culture war on this, you know, BS of Zelensky, you know,

being a Nazi. I mean, they are failing, failing, failing at every turn. I think we will be studying the American declassification strategy on this war for years to come, because it is brilliant at preempting anything Putin was going to do in terms of driving some pretext for war. That was, that was, where did that come from? Where was the, it was Biden, the Biden, but who? Right. I mean, I want to know everything. I want to, I want a case study tomorrow. All right. I think it was the Biden administration. I think, I think they had this intelligence for a long time. I think it was probably Ann Neuberger, Chris Inglis, Jen Easterly. I mean, we have the A-team in place on cyber right now. And I think they got this intelligence early, and I think they did the right thing by

sharing it. And I think it completely threw Putin off balance. He has completely lost. Lost that. And then lastly, and then Scott may have a last question, speculation that cryptocurrencies could be used to evade sanctions. Now, there's not much evidence of this, and people are using crypto to donate millions to the Ukrainian government. So what do you, do you think this is as big a thing, or does it just feel crypto feels so hidden but maybe not as hidden as we think so it's not as hidden as we think i think the blockchain has been a powerful tool for law enforcement and government agencies to track the flow of these fund of these funds um trm labs which does blockchain intelligence uh said that basically, you know, you need to watch out for

the off ramps, the crypto exchanges. So there's a couple crypto exchanges out there that have been sanctioned, that might likely be a place where Russians are going to try and move their money. But for everyone else, this is going to be an opportunity to create pressure on these crypto exchanges to actually enforce compliance and know your customer rules. And so hopefully, hopefully this will be a net positive. Do you think Web3 or specifically crypto presents opportunities for additional security and protocols or is a threat to national security as it relates to cyber? So I think it's both. So I used to have a pretty two dimensional thinking on cryptocurrency, because I was just covering ransomware

attack after ransomware attack. And there was no question that cryptos enabled ransomware, right? Five years ago, they were hacking your PC for $200 and saying, go to the pharmacy, get an e-gift card and give me the pin. Now it's $50 million in Monero cryptocurrency. So no doubt it's been an enabler. What I learned from Colonial Pipeline, because remember the FBI was able to claw back some of the ransom that Colonial paid, was actually Web3, the blockchain, is a blessing for law enforcement because for the first time they can track the flow of these funds as a ledger so to speak right and what what these guys at trm lab said to me who all used to work at the treasury and now are in blockchain intelligence they said listen it would have taken us more than two years to find that front company in the

seashells where they were holding that ransom payout if this was in fiat currency. And with crypto, we were able to track the flow of these funds in real time and get it back within weeks. So it is also a blessing. And then the key here is to mitigate the enablers, the cryptocurrency exchanges that aren't enforcing know your customer laws. Right. Okay. Nicole, this is so fascinating. Again, you're freaking me out with your thing, but that's good. I have two-factor authentication on everything. So I will, but the average consumer, that's what they should be doing. Two-factor authentication, changing passwords. Yep. Yep. Don't click on phishing links. Turn on two-factor authentication. Use a password manager.

Don't use 12345. And you'll be better off than 80% of people out there. Scott, do you hear that? Scott says, it has to change. You're my second factor. Everything I do has to get by my judgment and then yours. Thank God. Anyway, Nicole, amazing reporting.

Again, Nicole's book is frightening, but fantastic book called This Is How They Tell Me The World Ends. Nicole, the world I hope is not ending, but it's a really great history to understand this right now because it will be escalating over time. But in this case, we'll see how effective.

By the way, for someone who claims to be as worried as you are, you look awfully relaxed You're tanned and I heard birds chirping You seem pretty zen about all this I'm in Hawaii. I'm having the worst Hawaii vacation ever. I'm just on Twitter You know what? Get outside. Get outside

They can't hack the sunshine Yeah, I'm going. I'm going right now Good problem, Nicole. No one feeling sorry for you, Nicole Nicole, one feeling sorry for you, Nicole. Right now. Anyway, Nicole, thank you so much. Thanks, Nicole. Thanks for your good work.

Bye, guys. You too. Bye. All right, Scott. She's so smart. I like Nicole. She is a friend of Pivot. Anyway, one more quick break.

We'll be back for wins and fails. As a Fizz member, you can look forward to free data, big savings on plans, and having your unused data roll over to the following month. Every month. At Fizz, you always get more for your money. Terms and conditions for our different programs and policies apply. Details at Fizz.ca. Okay, Scott wins and fails.

What would you say? What would you say? Do would you say is your... Do you have any this week? I do. The win. SNL had a Fisher-Price podcast set for white guys sketch. It was cut for time for the broadcast, but landed on YouTube on Sunday. Introducing the new Fisher-Price podcast set for white guys.

Now you can shout every crazy thought in your head without ruining your life. It doesn't record anything at all. We're white guys. We need to be able to say every dumb thing into a microphone and not get in trouble. Get yours wherever Tactical Gear is sold. Ages 34 and up. It made me laugh. It made me laugh. It was really good. I thought the host was great. I really liked that guy's backstory. John, whatever. He's my kid's favorite comic. John Mulaney. That's correct. My kids love, love, love him.

Fail? Well, apparently Rick Scott for not making people report cyber attacks. But you know, I think continues to be some of these people in the Republican Party. I think Marjorie Taylor Greene once again. She seems to win the prize every time by appearing

at a white supremacist event full of, oh, just the worst stuff. I love that Mitt Romney called her a moron. I love that quoted Butch Cassidy in the Sundance Kid. It's been a good week for Mitt Romney. He was the one that said Russia...

All right, well, make him your win. He was the one that said four years ago and got laughed at, or six years ago, that Russia was the biggest threat to the U.S. And everyone said, oh, what a boomer, stupid thing to say. Okay, so my win, and it sounds passe, I talked about it early in the show, is capitalism. On the right, they have decided to ignore true capitalism. The basic notion of capitalism has to involve churn and true winning and losing. And what they've done is said, okay, because the existing winners are the ones that give us money through tax policy and bailouts of rich people, we're going to let the incumbents become dynastic, which is not capitalism, it's this suspicion and disparagement of people who make money, that we assume that they're bad people if they become billionaires. And the reality is, and I know a lot of very wealthy people, they're generally good people because you have to be to get that many people

rooting for you. So capitalism has been weaponized on the far left. It's been weaponized on the far right. But capitalism is this incredible mix of cooperation that rewards grit and talent and risk-taking. And the wonderful thing about capitalism, one of the many wonderful things, is it creates this incredible prosperity and economic power such that you can do wonderful things. And those wonderful things create connective tissue, whether it's buying real estate in London, whether it is sending your kids to a boarding school in Switzerland, whether it is partying in St. Barts. And that connective tissue brings us together and makes the exit costs and the downside of this type of unilateral action that has taken place, this criminal action in Ukraine,

creates real costs, real downsides because of the accoutrements and upside and because so many Russians now have so much to lose because of capitalism. So, I think— Yeah. It's not just the rich ones, by the way. The focus is on the oligarchs. But average people standing in line in St. Petersburg probably don't deserve what's happening to them in lots of ways. And it's because they need to protest, I guess, or do something else. It's very difficult in that country to protest. They don't just protest. They are in big trouble when they protest. The greatest deterrent, I believe the greatest deterrent to a shooting match over Taiwan right now is the iPhone. And that is there's just too many people in China and in Silicon Valley and investors all over the world that need iPhones to continue shipping.

And so everyone's going to think twice before they decide to go into Taiwan. I think capitalism has extraordinary benefits. It can. It certainly has downsides, as you know. We're very good at talking. We are very good about talking about the downsides. We do that a lot. Yes, that's true. That's fair. All right. So what's your fail? My fail is that anyone had to lose at the FA Cup final between Chelsea and Liverpool. I watched this thing on Sunday with my boys. I know you're not into sports.

This is soccer, correct? This is soccer or football if you're from anywhere outside of the U.S. But this was the FA Cup, and one of my sons likes Chelsea. One of them likes Liverpool. And you may not be familiar with soccer, but it's probably the best 0-0 game ever played because they have to go to what's called a shootout. And they keep going until someone misses after five. And so that meant all 11 players, including the goalies, had to take penalty shots. And Mo Salah for Liverpool was brilliant.

Firmino, Lukaku on Chelsea, Edward Mende, the goalie. No idea. These are incredible. Probably the best U.S. player in the world right there. Pulisic on Chelsea. Mounds, who's just an absolute delight to watch. And didn't, speaking of Ukraine, didn't the owner of one of them? Abramovich, he owns Chelsea.

But I've even been thinking about that. He's moved himself out of, remember, he put it into someone else's hands for a little while. And he's actually involved in the talks between Ukraine and Russia right now. That's a connection point. And also, didn't the soccer group say they did something to Russia that wasn't nice? You're making my point. Capitalism creates billionaire soccer owners who think twice and want to be part of the solution. And when you're vacationing and living

in, you know, just outside of St. Peter's, you have less to lose. So, it is great because the connective tissue is everywhere here. But anyways. All right. But let's just keep in mind the individual people in the Ukraine are incredibly brave. And as we sit around and complain about the stupid shit we can, over the past two years, our country has, it's really amazing. i worry for them because and an overwhelming force will always eventually win this you're right brute force almost wins almost every war and this might be how they they just they don't mind all those people dying this might be the first conflict i think that well we'll see but anyways uh my going back to my my loss here i just hated to see either team win a brilliant play by both Liverpool and Chelsea clubs.

Who won? Liverpool did. Because the goalie missed a penalty kick, which you never see goalie. Poor guy. I mean, poor guy. But anyways, it was just a wonderful. I'm not into sports. All right.

But so my loss is that anyone had to lose the FA Cup final. Congratulations to both Liverpool and Chelsea who played great games. You want them both to win. They both won in a way. Sounds like my mother. It's a shame anyone has to lose. Okay, Scott. That is the show.

It was so action-packed today. We'll be back on Friday for more. All right. That's the show. It is so action-packed today. We'll be back on Friday for more. All right. That's my cue. Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Evan Engel, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Andretat engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows and Emil Severo. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts.

Thank you for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business.